user17652: In the state known as neither perception nor non-perception, it seems impossible to cognize the relative particulates that allow it to occur as an event, but one can emerge mindfully from its attainment, as is stated in the Anupada Sutta. Hence, there is a beginning and an end to the event. In this way, I can only define it by what is absent rather than what is present - similar to exiting a noisy nightclub and resting in the dead of the night, then entering the nightclub again, taking with me only the memory of the still night.

Sariputta entered & remained in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. He emerged mindfully from that attainment.
Anupada Sutta

This leaves a trace-memory of the event that can be recalled, but even that itself is tenuous for two reasons, 1) by its very definition (neither perception nor non-perception) - from beginning to end - its particulates are so subtle, so indistinct that one can not confidently declare "I am emerged in neither perception nor non-percpetion". 2. The recall itself poses some accuracy issues, that since it is now in the memory, it is open to all sorts of interpretations including how I have chosen to define it here.
In the instance of neither perception nor non-perception, it seems the ability to discern and cognize are nimittas that are absent. Please correct me?
Is it sufficient for the mind to have experienced the presence of neither perception nor non-perception or must it be investigated further?

user20010: I'd argue that its largely irrelevant.  The content of meditative experience really has no bearing on ones practice.  The insight that is attained when one emerges from those states is what matters.  The only value of truly deep meditative absorption is that it allows for equally deep vipassana.

user13709: I wouldn't dismiss the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception too casually.
The dimension of neither perception nor non-perception separates the dimension of nothingness from the cessation of perception of feeling. Perception originates from contact, so the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception is the subtlest dimension for understanding that origination.  The Buddha's instruction to Moggallāna underscores the importance of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. Moggallāna declares:

SN40.8:1.7: While I was in that meditation, perceptions and attentions accompanied by the dimension of nothingness beset me.  Then the Buddha came up to me with his psychic power and said,
SN40.8:2.2: ‘Moggallāna, Moggallāna!
Don’t neglect the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception,
brahmin! Settle your mind in the dimension of neither perception nor
non-perception; unify your mind and immerse it in the dimension of
neither perception nor non-perception.’


user23770: The sutta is peculiar

Sariputta entered & remained in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. He emerged mindfully from that attainment. On emerging mindfully from that attainment, he regarded the past qualities that had ceased & changed: 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.

Qualities here is 'dhammā', plural hence the 'ā'
The sutta is peculiar because it does not say what those dhammā are as it does for the other attainmemts as in;

Whatever qualities there are in the dimension of nothingness — the perception of the dimension of nothingness, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers.

This sutta simply doesn't say what those qualities are in the case of neither perception nor non-perception and the expression is reduced to

So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play.

I can only speculate as to why the naming of the dhammā is omitted but the point is that there are dhammā which can be ferreted out one-by-one & named and dispassion towards those dhammā ought to be developed.

The property of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception is to be reached as a remnant-of-fabrications [sankharā] attainment.

BTW;

As for these two dimensions — the attainment of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception & the attainment of the cessation of feeling & perception — I tell you that they are to be rightly explained by those monks who are meditators, skilled in attaining, skilled in attaining & emerging, who have attained & emerged in dependence on them.”


17652: <p>In the state known as neither perception nor non-perception, it seems impossible to cognize the relative particulates that allow it to occur as an event, but one can emerge mindfully from its attainment, as is stated in the Anupada Sutta. Hence, there is a beginning and an end to the event. In this way, I can only define it by what is absent rather than what is present - similar to exiting a noisy nightclub and resting in the dead of the night, then entering the nightclub again, taking with me only the memory of the still night.</p>
<blockquote>
<p>Sariputta entered &amp; remained in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. He emerged mindfully from that attainment.</p>
<p><a href="https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ati/tipitaka/mn/mn.111.than.html" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Anupada Sutta</a></p>
</blockquote>
<p>This leaves a trace-memory of the event that can be recalled, but even that itself is tenuous for two reasons, 1) by its very definition (neither perception nor non-perception) - from beginning to end - its particulates are so subtle, so indistinct that one can not confidently declare &quot;I am emerged in neither perception nor non-percpetion&quot;. 2. The recall itself poses some accuracy issues, that since it is now in the memory, it is open to all sorts of interpretations including how I have chosen to define it here.</p>
<p>In the instance of neither perception nor non-perception, it seems the ability to <em>discern</em> and <em>cognize</em> are nimittas that are absent. Please correct me?</p>
<p>Is it sufficient for the mind to have experienced the presence of neither perception nor non-perception or must it be investigated further?</p>
 20010: <p>I'd argue that its largely irrelevant.  The content of meditative experience really has no bearing on ones practice.  The insight that is attained when one emerges from those states is what matters.  The only value of truly deep meditative absorption is that it allows for equally deep vipassana.</p>
 13709: <p>I wouldn't dismiss the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception too casually.</p>
<p>The dimension of neither perception nor non-perception separates the dimension of nothingness from the cessation of perception of feeling. Perception originates from contact, so the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception is the subtlest dimension for understanding that origination.  The Buddha's instruction to Moggallāna underscores the importance of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. Moggallāna declares:</p>
<blockquote>
<p><a href="https://suttacentral.net/sn40.8/en/sujato#sn40.8:1.7" rel="nofollow noreferrer">SN40.8:1.7</a>: While I was in that meditation, perceptions and attentions accompanied by the dimension of nothingness beset me.  Then the Buddha came up to me with his psychic power and said,<br />
<a href="https://suttacentral.net/sn40.8/en/sujato#sn40.8:2.2" rel="nofollow noreferrer">SN40.8:2.2</a>: ‘Moggallāna, Moggallāna!<br />
Don’t neglect the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception,
brahmin! Settle your mind in the dimension of neither perception nor
non-perception; unify your mind and immerse it in the dimension of
neither perception nor non-perception.’</p>
</blockquote>
 23770: <p>The sutta is peculiar</p>
<blockquote>
<p>Sariputta entered &amp; remained in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. He emerged mindfully from that attainment. On emerging mindfully from that attainment, he regarded the past qualities that had ceased &amp; changed: <strong>'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.'</strong> He remained unattracted &amp; unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Qualities here is 'dhammā', plural hence the 'ā'</p>
<p>The sutta is peculiar because it does not say what those dhammā are as it does for the other attainmemts as in;</p>
<blockquote>
<p><em>Whatever qualities there are in the dimension of nothingness — the perception of the dimension of nothingness, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, &amp; attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned,</em> <strong>'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.'</strong> He remained unattracted &amp; unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>This sutta simply doesn't say what those qualities are in the case of neither perception nor non-perception and the expression is reduced to</p>
<blockquote>
<p>So this is how these <strong>qualities</strong>, not having been, come into play.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>I can only speculate as to why the naming of the dhammā is omitted but the point is that <strong>there are</strong> dhammā which can be ferreted out one-by-one &amp; named and dispassion towards those dhammā ought to be developed.</p>
<blockquote>
<p>The property of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception is to be reached as a remnant-of-fabrications [sankharā] attainment.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>BTW;</p>
<blockquote>
<p>As for these two dimensions — the attainment of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception &amp; the attainment of the cessation of feeling &amp; perception — I tell you that they are to be rightly explained by those monks who are meditators, skilled in attaining, skilled in attaining &amp; emerging, who have attained &amp; emerged in dependence on them.”</p>
</blockquote>
