user24191: Why are Concepts not Impermanent? I found the below explanation in another forum. Are they Permanent? or not both?

Conventional reality (sammuti sacca/ pannatti) is just a concept and
not real. Non-real dhammas don’t exist and therefore cannot be anicca
or dukkha.
According to Abhdhamma:

dhamma = paramata + pannatti
paramata = sankhata + asankhata
sankhata = citta + cetasika + rupa
asnkhata = nibbana
dhamma = citta + cetasika + rupa + nibbana + pannatti

All the dhammas are anatta. Anatta means devoid of
essence/self/ownership/hegemony.
Only the sankhata (compounded) is anicca-dukkha. Nibbana and Pannatti
are anatta only.
Nibbana is real but not compounded. Therefore not anicca-dukkha.
Pannatti is non-real. Therefore not anicca-dukkha.


In Theravada, Concept is an object (unreal object). It is not the
Concept-formation of our mind. Mind and mental factors that form a
concept do arise and cease, but not the Concept.


The conceptualizing in mind is the impermanent one, but not the
Conceptual-object of Conceptualizing-mind. Pannatti is an object. This
fake object is perceived by the impermanent mind.


The colors that the eye sees in a movie are real, but not the concept
of “movie”. What is fake is the Object pointed by the Idea of “movie”.


What “Conceptualizing” points to, is the Concept. It is a fake object
that “Conceptualizing” points to.
The pointer exists, but “what is pointed” doesn’t exist.
So Concepts are not considered as anicca or dukkha.

Conventional Reality is not Impermanent!
Introduction to the Ultimacy (International Institute of Theravada)

user471: To my understanding, only two things are not impermanent.
The first is Nibbana, based on Ud 8.1 and Ud 8.3.
The second is the three marks of existence, based on AN 3.136.
For other concepts - let's take the example of the concept of a chariot from SN 5.10. If no one thought of it, would the concept of a chariot arise and exist on its own? I don't think so.

“There is, mendicants, that dimension where there is no earth, no
water, no fire, no wind; no dimension of infinite space, no dimension
of infinite consciousness, no dimension of nothingness, no dimension
of neither perception nor non-perception; no this world, no other
world, no moon or sun. There, mendicants, I say there is no coming or
going or remaining or passing away or reappearing. It is not
established, does not proceed, and has no support. Just this is the
end of suffering.”
Ud 8.1


“There is, mendicants, an unborn, unproduced, unmade, and
unconditioned. If there were no unborn, unproduced, unmade, and
unconditioned, then you would find no escape here from the born,
produced, made, and conditioned. But since there is an unborn,
unproduced, unmade, and unconditioned, an escape is found from the
born, produced, made, and conditioned.”
Ud 8.3


“Mendicants, whether Realized Ones arise or not, this law of nature
persists, this regularity of natural principles, this invariance of
natural principles: all conditions are impermanent. A Realized One
understands this and comprehends it, then he explains, teaches,
asserts, establishes, clarifies, analyzes, and reveals it: ‘All
conditions are impermanent.’
Whether Realized Ones arise or not, this law of nature persists, this
regularity of natural principles, this invariance of natural
principles: all conditions are suffering. A Realized One understands
this and comprehends it, then he explains, teaches, asserts,
establishes, clarifies, analyzes, and reveals it: ‘All conditions are
suffering.’
Whether Realized Ones arise or not, this law of nature persists, this
regularity of natural principles, this invariance of natural
principles: all things are not-self. A Realized One understands this
and comprehends it, then he explains, teaches, asserts, establishes,
clarifies, analyzes, and reveals it: ‘All things are not-self.’”
AN 3.136


24191: <p>Why are Concepts not Impermanent? I found the below explanation in another forum. Are they Permanent? or not both?</p>
<blockquote>
<p>Conventional reality (sammuti sacca/ pannatti) is just a concept and
not real. Non-real dhammas don’t exist and therefore cannot be anicca
or dukkha.</p>
<p>According to Abhdhamma:</p>
<ul>
<li>dhamma = paramata + pannatti</li>
<li>paramata = sankhata + asankhata</li>
<li>sankhata = citta + cetasika + rupa</li>
<li>asnkhata = nibbana</li>
<li>dhamma = citta + cetasika + rupa + nibbana + pannatti</li>
</ul>
<p>All the dhammas are anatta. Anatta means devoid of
essence/self/ownership/hegemony.</p>
<p>Only the sankhata (compounded) is anicca-dukkha. Nibbana and Pannatti
are anatta only.</p>
<p>Nibbana is real but not compounded. Therefore not anicca-dukkha.
Pannatti is non-real. Therefore not anicca-dukkha.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong>In Theravada, Concept is an object (unreal object).</strong> It is not the
Concept-formation of our mind. Mind and mental factors that form a
concept do arise and cease, but not the Concept.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p>The conceptualizing in mind is the impermanent one, but not the
Conceptual-object of Conceptualizing-mind. <strong>Pannatti is an object.</strong> This
fake object is perceived by the impermanent mind.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p>The colors that the eye sees in a movie are real, but not the concept
of “movie”. What is fake is the Object pointed by the Idea of “movie”.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong>What “Conceptualizing” points to, is the Concept.</strong> It is a fake object
that “Conceptualizing” points to.</p>
<p><strong>The pointer exists, but “what is pointed” doesn’t exist.</strong></p>
<p>So Concepts are not considered as anicca or dukkha.</p>
</blockquote>
<p><a href="https://classicaltheravada.org/t/conventional-reality-is-not-impermanent/468" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Conventional Reality is not Impermanent!</a></p>
<p><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvLNcRHhGKI&amp;list=PLdluojKrWhDe6PRlcaHvxqvqKA5kwo1Dz&amp;index=2" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Introduction to the Ultimacy (International Institute of Theravada)</a></p>
 471: <p>To my understanding, only two things are not impermanent.</p>
<p>The first is Nibbana, based on <a href="https://suttacentral.net/ud8.1/en/sujato" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Ud 8.1</a> and <a href="https://suttacentral.net/ud8.3/en/sujato" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Ud 8.3</a>.</p>
<p>The second is the three marks of existence, based on <a href="https://suttacentral.net/an3.136/en/sujato" rel="nofollow noreferrer">AN 3.136</a>.</p>
<p>For other concepts - let's take the example of the concept of a chariot from <a href="https://suttacentral.net/sn5.10/en/sujato" rel="nofollow noreferrer">SN 5.10</a>. If no one thought of it, would the concept of a chariot arise and exist on its own? I don't think so.</p>
<blockquote>
<p>“There is, mendicants, that dimension where there is no earth, no
water, no fire, no wind; no dimension of infinite space, no dimension
of infinite consciousness, no dimension of nothingness, no dimension
of neither perception nor non-perception; no this world, no other
world, no moon or sun. There, mendicants, <strong>I say there is no coming or
going or remaining or passing away or reappearing. It is not
established, does not proceed, and has no support.</strong> Just this is the
end of suffering.”<br />
<a href="https://suttacentral.net/ud8.1/en/sujato" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Ud 8.1</a></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p>“There is, mendicants, <strong>an unborn, unproduced, unmade, and
unconditioned</strong>. If there were no unborn, unproduced, unmade, and
unconditioned, then you would find no escape here from the born,
produced, made, and conditioned. But since there is an unborn,
unproduced, unmade, and unconditioned, an escape is found from the
born, produced, made, and conditioned.”<br />
<a href="https://suttacentral.net/ud8.3/en/sujato" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Ud 8.3</a></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p>“Mendicants, <strong>whether Realized Ones arise or not, this law of nature
persists</strong>, this regularity of natural principles, this invariance of
natural principles: all conditions are impermanent. A Realized One
understands this and comprehends it, then he explains, teaches,
asserts, establishes, clarifies, analyzes, and reveals it: ‘All
conditions are impermanent.’</p>
<p><strong>Whether Realized Ones arise or not, this law of nature persists</strong>, this
regularity of natural principles, this invariance of natural
principles: all conditions are suffering. A Realized One understands
this and comprehends it, then he explains, teaches, asserts,
establishes, clarifies, analyzes, and reveals it: ‘All conditions are
suffering.’</p>
<p><strong>Whether Realized Ones arise or not, this law of nature persists</strong>, this
regularity of natural principles, this invariance of natural
principles: all things are not-self. A Realized One understands this
and comprehends it, then he explains, teaches, asserts, establishes,
clarifies, analyzes, and reveals it: ‘All things are not-self.’”<br />
<a href="https://suttacentral.net/an3.136/en/sujato" rel="nofollow noreferrer">AN 3.136</a></p>
</blockquote>
