user1005: As we know, in soto-shu we don't count nor observe the breath during zazen.
I would like people who have a long experience with zazen meditation to explain if they consider that counting and observing the breath was helpful to progress in their meditation practice or not. Should a beginner start with counting breathing rather then go straight into shikantaza practice ?

user16541: For last two years i am practicing Vipasana meditation and by observing the process of breath. I am work-ably become thoughtless during meditation and helpful even any time for few seconds or a minute or two whenever i do it before doing anything even drinking water. After observing a single breath, I do not talk a single word. This practice helped me a lot. 
           my problem is to get back through to only sit, and nothing else than sitting. i have no clue. Will you help me. You may contactt me on beyondheaven@gmail.com
Spiritually yours
     Sujan, an youngman of 81 years.  


user364: I'd like to give my view on that topic, even if the question is already old. I started sitting at a martial arts dojo once in a month without any sect or tradition. The second pillar was a book from Sekida ("Zen-Training" in german). He suggested to count your breath and while I was sitting mostly alone at home and had no real training, even at that dojo, I followed that advice and it worked very well for me.
I have to admit, since know, I haven't sit regular. It was something like "a few days in a row" than a few days not. Over time I stopped practice and started again.
Now I sit with Soto-Shu once a week and every day at home. We do Shikantaza. With the random training before I was able to adopt that way quickly. But when it comes to long periods or I have a troubled mind, I go back to counting my breath, just to stay on track. I do two or three cycle and then stop counting again.
While I see the help breath-counting brings for concentration, I found for myself, that with enough training, I can count in a half conscious part of my brain, while thinking about other things in a different part. I still now the next count and I still restart after ten. Just training.
And for me, there is always the danger of counting breath as a measurement of how long I still have to sit, since my breath is deep and low and of quite stable frequency. In my consideration that is just as unuseful as daydreaming.

user793: In my practice at a Soto Zen center, I was never instructed not to count breaths; it seemed to be well accepted as a valuable beginner's practice.  I personally found it very helpful, as I would go from 1 to 10, starting over from 1 if I lost track.  You'd think that counting to 10 would be easy, but I've had times when I couldn't even make it past 1.  It's just so very boring.  That, for me is the key utility of the practice, as otherwise I find myself indulging in trains of thought and sensation without even realizing I'm doing it.  The counting is artificial and a crutch, but my mind can't be trusted to operate well unattended.

In response to the comment, here are a few more thoughts.
The center where I sat was in the US, so it could be that the style of teaching is somewhat different.  Here is an article where Shunryū Suzuki-rōshi answered a question regarding counting the breath vs. shinkantaza (at the very top in response to Student A); his answer was that there was not much difference.  He does say that counting isn't really easier though, since to do the practice properly, you have to count with your whole body.  He does slightly distinguish breath counting practice from shinkantaza (not 'much' difference), but the sense I get is that when you truly practice it correctly, they are essentially the same.
I was also told that shinkantaza does not stop when you get up from the cushion, perhaps suggesting we shouldn't get too attached to the 'sitting' part (or, perhaps, having a body to sit with?)

user43: My experience with "formal" zazen comes from meditating at a local Korean Zen meditation center, for about two years, twice a week, two hours each time. Plus some meditation at home.
In my experience, counting breaths is useful on those days when the mind is very distracted with mental chatter / inner gossip.
There seems to be a progression here: from counting by mentally saying the numbers, to counting on phalanges, to simply watching the breathing, to watching the mind, to just sitting.
For beginner, "just sitting" is an impossible feat. So rather than lying to oneself and pretending to "just sit" while instead indulging in thinking, one is advised to watch the mind ("don't go with thoughts, don't go against the thoughts"). If that still does not work, one should watch the inhales and exhales, in the hope to see the emotional disturbances that the thoughts come from, and let those go. If the mind is so disturbed that one can't even follow the breath, then counting breaths is used as last resort to tie up the discursive mind.

1005: <p>As we know, in soto-shu we don't count nor observe the breath during zazen.</p>

<p>I would like people who have a long experience with zazen meditation to explain if they consider that counting and observing the breath was helpful to progress in their meditation practice or not. Should a beginner start with counting breathing rather then go straight into shikantaza practice ?</p>
 16541: <p>For last two years i am practicing Vipasana meditation and by observing the process of breath. I am work-ably become thoughtless during meditation and helpful even any time for few seconds or a minute or two whenever i do it before doing anything even drinking water. After observing a single breath, I do not talk a single word. This practice helped me a lot. 
           my problem is to get back through to only sit, and nothing else than sitting. i have no clue. Will you help me. You may contactt me on beyondheaven@gmail.com</p>

<pre><code>Spiritually yours
     Sujan, an youngman of 81 years.  
</code></pre>
 364: <p>I'd like to give my view on that topic, even if the question is already old. I started sitting at a martial arts dojo once in a month without any sect or tradition. The second pillar was a book from Sekida ("Zen-Training" in german). He suggested to count your breath and while I was sitting mostly alone at home and had no real training, even at that dojo, I followed that advice and it worked very well for me.</p>

<p>I have to admit, since know, I haven't sit regular. It was something like "a few days in a row" than a few days not. Over time I stopped practice and started again.</p>

<p>Now I sit with Soto-Shu once a week and every day at home. We do Shikantaza. With the random training before I was able to adopt that way quickly. But when it comes to long periods or I have a troubled mind, I go back to counting my breath, just to stay on track. I do two or three cycle and then stop counting again.</p>

<p>While I see the help breath-counting brings for concentration, I found for myself, that with enough training, I can count in a half conscious part of my brain, while thinking about other things in a different part. I still now the next count and I still restart after ten. Just training.</p>

<p>And for me, there is always the danger of counting breath as a measurement of how long I still have to sit, since my breath is deep and low and of quite stable frequency. In my consideration that is just as unuseful as daydreaming.</p>
 793: <p>In my practice at a Soto Zen center, I was never instructed not to count breaths; it seemed to be well accepted as a valuable beginner's practice.  I personally found it very helpful, as I would go from 1 to 10, starting over from 1 if I lost track.  You'd think that counting to 10 would be easy, but I've had times when I couldn't even make it past 1.  It's just so very boring.  That, for me is the key utility of the practice, as otherwise I find myself indulging in trains of thought and sensation without even realizing I'm doing it.  The counting is artificial and a crutch, but my mind can't be trusted to operate well unattended.</p>

<hr>

<p>In response to the comment, here are a few more thoughts.</p>

<p>The center where I sat was in the US, so it could be that the style of teaching is somewhat different.  <a href="http://suzukiroshi.sfzc.org/dharma-talks/?p=962#more-962" rel="nofollow">Here</a> is an article where Shunryū Suzuki-rōshi answered a question regarding counting the breath vs. shinkantaza (at the very top in response to Student A); his answer was that there was not much difference.  He does say that counting isn't really easier though, since to do the practice properly, you have to count with your whole body.  He does slightly distinguish breath counting practice from shinkantaza (not 'much' difference), but the sense I get is that when you truly practice it correctly, they are essentially the same.</p>

<p>I was also told that shinkantaza does not stop when you get up from the cushion, perhaps suggesting we shouldn't get too attached to the 'sitting' part (or, perhaps, having a body to sit with?)</p>
 43: <p>My experience with "formal" zazen comes from meditating at a local Korean Zen meditation center, for about two years, twice a week, two hours each time. Plus some meditation at home.</p>

<p>In my experience, counting breaths is useful on those days when the mind is very distracted with mental chatter / inner gossip.</p>

<p>There seems to be a progression here: from counting by mentally saying the numbers, to counting on phalanges, to simply watching the breathing, to watching the mind, to just sitting.</p>

<p>For beginner, "just sitting" is an impossible feat. So rather than lying to oneself and pretending to "just sit" while instead indulging in thinking, one is advised to watch the mind ("don't go with thoughts, don't go against the thoughts"). If that still does not work, one should watch the inhales and exhales, in the hope to see the emotional disturbances that the thoughts come from, and let those go. If the mind is so disturbed that one can't even follow the breath, then counting breaths is used as last resort to tie up the discursive mind.</p>
