user-1: If I have the idea of an "apple" or its taste,

is the idea as real as the apple itself?

Specifically

do the objects of the 6th consciousness depend on anything except the 6th consciousness?

In normal philosophical terms

does the idea depend on the mind having the idea, in order to exist?

I think these are all equivalent questions, because causation is the conventional truth - ideas, the ultimate - no causation, and the middle - the buddha nature or mind-body.

user10100: The illusion (AtthaPaññatti;UpādāyaPaññatti) and the name (NāmaPaññatti) are not real, never arise. I think they are called "Conceptual (Paññati)" in english, right?
Everything is Paññatti which imagine by mind, not real. except arisable 5 aggregates which depending on various origins each time and Nibbāna which never arise and not depending on anything. The mind uses them to imagine Paññatti.
The real is  each arisable element in 5 aggregates which mind using to create illusion and name. Even if we talking about the 5 aggregates which possible to arise in the future, this 5 aggregates is real as well. Opposite, the 5 aggregates which being not arisable, is NāmaPaññatti instead.
Each arisable element (both Nāmas and Rūpas) are depending on various origin to really arise.
So, the Buddhā said in SN SaṅkhataLakkhaṇaSutta:


Sankhatalakhaṇasuttaṃ –– The signs of a compounded

Bhikkhus, these three are the signs of a compounded. What three? The arising is evident, the fading is evident and the change is evident. Bhikkhus, these three are the signs of a compounded.



Nibbāna is real because it is the opposite of ariseable clinging 5 aggregates. no one can finish 5 aggregates while everyone are knowing Paññatti everyday. Only Nibbāna can finish 5 aggregates after one knows it.
Another, the special illusion is used in the concentration meditation to avoid 5 strings. This is like a stable brighter and brighter light which appear only at mind door only. This is the way to get out of 5 strings in CittaVisuddhi (mind purification).
See AbhidhammatthaSaṅgaha chapter 8 Paññatti.

-1: <p>If I have the idea of an &quot;apple&quot; or its taste,</p>
<ul>
<li>is the idea as real as the apple itself?</li>
</ul>
<p>Specifically</p>
<ul>
<li>do the objects of the 6th consciousness depend on anything except the 6th consciousness?</li>
</ul>
<p>In normal philosophical terms</p>
<ul>
<li>does the idea depend on the mind having the idea, in order to exist?</li>
</ul>
<p>I think these are all equivalent questions, because causation is the conventional truth - ideas, the ultimate - no causation, and the middle - the buddha nature or mind-body.</p>
 10100: <p>The illusion (AtthaPaññatti;UpādāyaPaññatti) and the name (NāmaPaññatti) are not real, never arise. I think they are called &quot;Conceptual (Paññati)&quot; in english, right?</p>
<p>Everything is Paññatti which imagine by mind, not real. except arisable 5 aggregates which depending on various origins each time and Nibbāna which never arise and not depending on anything. The mind uses them to imagine Paññatti.</p>
<p>The real is  each arisable element in 5 aggregates which mind using to create illusion and name. Even if we talking about the 5 aggregates which possible to arise in the future, this 5 aggregates is real as well. Opposite, the 5 aggregates which being not arisable, is NāmaPaññatti instead.</p>
<p>Each arisable element (both Nāmas and Rūpas) are depending on various origin to really arise.</p>
<p>So, the Buddhā said in SN <a href="https://84000.org/tipitaka/read/roman_read.php?B=20&amp;A=3999&amp;eng=accesstoinsight_than" rel="nofollow noreferrer">SaṅkhataLakkhaṇaSutta</a>:</p>
<blockquote>
<ol start="7">
<li><p>Sankhatalakhaṇasuttaṃ –– The signs of a compounded</p>
</li>
<li><p>Bhikkhus, these three are the signs of a compounded. What three? The arising is evident, the fading is evident and the change is evident. Bhikkhus, these three are the signs of a compounded.</p>
</li>
</ol>
</blockquote>
<p>Nibbāna is real because it is the opposite of <strong>ariseable clinging</strong> 5 aggregates. no one can finish 5 aggregates while everyone are knowing Paññatti everyday. Only Nibbāna can finish 5 aggregates after one knows it.</p>
<p>Another, the special illusion is used in the concentration meditation to avoid 5 strings. This is like a stable brighter and brighter light which appear only at mind door only. This is the way to get out of 5 strings in CittaVisuddhi (mind purification).</p>
<p>See <a href="https://ballwarapol.github.io/sangaha/chapter_8.htm?#1-319" rel="nofollow noreferrer">AbhidhammatthaSaṅgaha chapter 8 Paññatti</a>.</p>
