user254: I was reading this comment which included ...

I guess I'm perhaps not entirely aware of what the basic problem which affects me is. I feel that in many ways, I'm either backwards or not fully satisfied with my experience, and I feel Buddhism has a lot of answers; but, as you say, across the years I'm still a bit clueless. I will say, though, that recently I'm less motivated and derive less pleasure from my activities and experience.

... and I thought ...

Isn't that the observation of Buddhism -- like 'rule number one' (the four noble truths -- i.e., that "experiences" aren't "fully satisfying", and that "motivations" may be temporary (conditioned)?

From which there's then the eightfold path, starting with right view, seeing the true worth of everything ('seeing things as they really are'), isn't that right?

My question here though is based on the Kimattha Sutta (AN 11.1)

"What is the purpose of skillful virtues? What is their reward?"
"Skillful virtues have freedom from remorse as their purpose, Ananda, and freedom from remorse as their reward."
"And what is the purpose of freedom from remorse? What is its reward?"
etc.

So ...

Is it fair to see the "absence of remorse" as relatively unconditioned, and therefore permanent (compared with other maybe-more-mundane sensual contacts which are more transient)?
Metaphysically, is an absence (e.g. of remorse), possibly emptiness, reliably (seemingly paradoxically) present or existent -- conversely any presence (sense-contact) is not "reliably" present or existent?
Am I right in thinking that the following bits of dhamma support this theory:


Sīlānussati being one of the anussatis AN 6.10
The Dana sutta (AN 7.49 or is it AN 7.52), translated as saying that it's a "support" for the mind? That's sometimes also translated "ornament" or "requisite" -- or cittālaṅkāracittaparikkhāra: "adornment or improvement (making fit?) and equipping of thinking?"

How does that (i.e. its being a reliable support) fit with Buddhist doctrine about "groundless" -- or 'trackless' or 'footless' -- or is that something else entirely?
What about "skilful virtue" or "skilful ethics" then, kusalāni sīlāni, concentrating on those words: is the meaning of that non-obvious, is it quite specific and closely defined, or does it mean just what you might expect it to mean?
I notice that AN 6.10 says,

Furthermore, a noble disciple recollects their own ethical conduct, which is unbroken, impeccable, spotless, and unmarred, liberating, praised by sensible people, not mistaken, and leading to immersion (samādhisaṃvattanikāni: "conducive to concentration").

That reminds me a bit of problems people sometimes say they have, of being "unable to concentrate". So might you explain this quote a bit: how is "ethical conduct" and "remembering ethical conduct" is related to concentration? Is that actually informative or prescriptive, or are they (e.g. "remembering" and "concentration") merely synonyms?


user295: Free from remorse is one of the initial factors from which one reaches Nibbida.

(Ekādasaka) Cetanā’karaṇīya Sutta Introduction by Piya Tan

(Dasaka) Cetanā’karaṇīya Sutta Introduction by Piya Tan
There are many starting points like virtue, faith, understanding of suffering.

And what, bhikshus, is the necessary condition for faith?
It should be said: suffering (dukkha).
  Suffering, bhikshus, has a necessary condition, too, I say.
  It is not without a necessary condition.

Upanisa Sutta
Also,

listening to the Dharma
teaching the Dharma
reciting the Dharma
reflecting on the Dharma
meditation

Followed by the rest of the steps :

joy arises in him;
because of joy, zest arises;
because of zest, the body becomes tranquil;
when the body is tranquil, he feels happiness;
a happy mind becomes concentrated.
...

Vimutt’āyatana Sutta
Also, 4 Noble Truths lead to the same process.

Then, the Buddha, when further questioned by Potthapāda on what he actually teaches, declares that
  he teaches the 4 noble truths, and his reasons are:
Because
it [their declaration] is connected to the goal;
it is connected to the Dharma;
it belongs to the fundamentals of the holy life;
it leads to revulsion, nibbidāya
to dispassion [letting go], virāgāya
to cessation (of suffering), nirodhāya
to inner peace, upasamāya
to direct knowledge, abhiññāya
to awakening, sambodhāya
to nirvana. nibbānāya savattati

Potthapāda Sutta

OP: Is it fair to see the "absence of remorse" as relatively unconditioned

Free from remorse is conditioned by moral virtue. If one becomes less virtuous then guilt-free state disappears. Every element in the above lists are conditions except for Nirvana.

Cittâlakra citta,parikkhr’attha. In other words, the giving is part of one’s cultivation of moral virtue
  as a support for mental cultivation. With abundant moral virtue, it is easier for one to cultivate the mind. Conversely,
  if one finds difficulty in meditating then one should examine one’s moral conduct and rectify any unwholesome
  habits or resolve negative thoughts.

Dana Maha-p,phala Sutta
In the 1st list above free from remorse give rise to joy. Items 3-7 are related to concentration. So giving supports virtue which supports lack of remorse and from there onwards, the rest follow.

user17076: The first thing here is to understand that the Buddha did not say, as it is almost universally translated: "All conditioned things are impermanent." He said all 'sankharas' are impermanent and sankhara does not mean 'condition'. It means san = own or self; and khara - make, and it means that which is constructed by the individual mind with the idea of creating personal experience. Nibbana is conditioned (paccaya) by following the Magga. 
I have laid out the argument for the above in greater detail at:
http://buddhadust.net/dhammatalk/dhammatalk_forum/dhamma_talk/dt_009.conditioned.vs.own-made.htm
So the absence of remorse is conditioned, but not being an existing thing, not having been constructed (sankharaed)-- it was the result of not-doing, is not itself subject to ending and is a small taste of Nibbana. Remorse being relative to its cause and the cause being removed the remorse is removed forever. Remorse may return but it will be based on another ill-conceived act.

254: <p>I was reading <a href="https://buddhism.stackexchange.com/questions/35341/are-habits-a-kind-of-attachment#comment60600_35341">this comment</a> which included ...</p>

<blockquote>
  <p>I guess I'm perhaps not entirely aware of what the basic problem which affects me is. I feel that in many ways, I'm either backwards or not fully satisfied with my experience, and I feel Buddhism has a lot of answers; but, as you say, across the years I'm still a bit clueless. I will say, though, that recently I'm less motivated and derive less pleasure from my activities and experience.</p>
</blockquote>

<p>... and I thought ...</p>

<blockquote>
  <p>Isn't that <em>the</em> observation of Buddhism -- like 'rule number one' (the four noble truths -- i.e., that "experiences" aren't "fully satisfying", and that "motivations" may be temporary (conditioned)?</p>
</blockquote>

<p>From which there's then the eightfold path, starting with right view, seeing the true worth of everything ('seeing things as they really are'), isn't that right?</p>

<hr>

<p>My question here though is based on the <a href="https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an11/an11.001.than.html" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Kimattha Sutta (AN 11.1)</a></p>

<blockquote>
  <p>"What is the purpose of skillful virtues? What is their reward?"</p>
  
  <p>"Skillful virtues have freedom from remorse as their purpose, Ananda, and freedom from remorse as their reward."</p>
  
  <p>"And what is the purpose of freedom from remorse? What is its reward?"</p>
  
  <p>etc.</p>
</blockquote>

<p>So ...</p>

<ul>
<li>Is it fair to see the "absence of remorse" as relatively unconditioned, and therefore permanent (compared with other maybe-more-mundane sensual contacts which are more transient)?</li>
<li>Metaphysically, is an <em>absence</em> (e.g. of remorse), possibly <em>emptiness</em>, reliably (seemingly paradoxically) present or existent -- conversely any presence (sense-contact) is not "reliably" present or existent?</li>
<li>Am I right in thinking that the following bits of dhamma support this theory:

<ul>
<li>Sīlānussati being one of the anussatis <a href="https://suttacentral.net/an6.10/en/sujato" rel="nofollow noreferrer">AN 6.10</a></li>
<li>The Dana sutta (<a href="https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an07/an07.049.than.html" rel="nofollow noreferrer">AN 7.49</a> or is it <a href="https://suttacentral.net/an7.52/en/sujato" rel="nofollow noreferrer">AN 7.52</a>), translated as saying that it's a "support" for the mind? That's sometimes also translated "ornament" or "requisite" -- or <a href="https://suttacentral.net/define/citt%C4%81la%E1%B9%85k%C4%81racittaparikkh%C4%81ra" rel="nofollow noreferrer">cittālaṅkāracittaparikkhāra</a>: "adornment or improvement (making fit?) and equipping of thinking?"</li>
</ul></li>
<li>How does that (i.e. its being a reliable support) fit with Buddhist doctrine about "groundless" -- or <a href="https://buddhism.stackexchange.com/q/1992/254">'trackless' or 'footless'</a> -- or is that something else entirely?</li>
<li>What about "skilful virtue" or "skilful ethics" then, <em>kusalāni sīlāni</em>, concentrating on those words: is the meaning of that non-obvious, is it quite specific and closely defined, or does it mean just what you might expect it to mean?</li>
<li><p>I notice that AN 6.10 says,</p>

<blockquote>
  <p>Furthermore, a noble disciple recollects their own ethical conduct, which is unbroken, impeccable, spotless, and unmarred, liberating, praised by sensible people, not mistaken, and leading to immersion (<a href="https://suttacentral.net/define/sam%C4%81dhisa%E1%B9%83vattanika" rel="nofollow noreferrer">samādhisaṃvattanikāni</a>: "conducive to concentration").</p>
</blockquote>

<p>That reminds me a bit of problems people sometimes say they have, of being "unable to concentrate". So might you explain this quote a bit: how is "ethical conduct" and "remembering ethical conduct" is related to concentration? Is that actually informative or prescriptive, or are they (e.g. "remembering" and "concentration") merely synonyms?</p></li>
</ul>
 295: <p>Free from remorse is one of the initial factors from which one reaches <a href="http://www.themindingcentre.org/dharmafarer/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/20.1-Nibbida-piya.pdf" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Nibbida</a>.</p>

<p><a href="https://i.stack.imgur.com/Npjin.png" rel="nofollow noreferrer"><img src="https://i.stack.imgur.com/Npjin.png" alt="(Ekādasaka) Cetanā’karaṇīya Sutta"></a></p>

<p><a href="http://www.themindingcentre.org/dharmafarer/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/33.3b-Ekadasaka-Cetanakaraniya-a11.2-piya.pdf" rel="nofollow noreferrer">(Ekādasaka) Cetanā’karaṇīya Sutta</a> Introduction by Piya Tan</p>

<p><a href="https://i.stack.imgur.com/zbCFa.png" rel="nofollow noreferrer"><img src="https://i.stack.imgur.com/zbCFa.png" alt="(Dasaka) Cetanā’karaṇīya Sutta"></a></p>

<p><a href="http://www.themindingcentre.org/dharmafarer/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/41.6-Dasaka-Cetanakaraniya-S-a10.2-piya.pdf" rel="nofollow noreferrer">(Dasaka) Cetanā’karaṇīya Sutta</a> Introduction by Piya Tan</p>

<p>There are many starting points like virtue, faith, understanding of suffering.</p>

<blockquote>
  <p>And what, bhikshus, is the necessary condition for faith?</p>
  
  <p>It should be said: suffering (dukkha).
  Suffering, bhikshus, has a necessary condition, too, I say.
  It is not without a necessary condition.</p>
</blockquote>

<p><a href="http://www.themindingcentre.org/dharmafarer/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/6.12-Upanisa-S-s12.23-piya.pdf" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Upanisa Sutta</a></p>

<p>Also,</p>

<ol>
<li>listening to the Dharma</li>
<li>teaching the Dharma</li>
<li>reciting the Dharma</li>
<li>reflecting on the Dharma</li>
<li>meditation</li>
</ol>

<p>Followed by the rest of the steps :</p>

<blockquote>
  <p>joy arises in him;</p>
  
  <p>because of joy, zest arises;</p>
  
  <p>because of zest, the body becomes tranquil;</p>
  
  <p>when the body is tranquil, he feels happiness;</p>
  
  <p>a happy mind becomes concentrated.</p>
  
  <p>...</p>
</blockquote>

<p><a href="http://www.themindingcentre.org/dharmafarer/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/21.5-Vimuttayatana-S-a5.26-piya.pdf" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Vimutt’āyatana Sutta</a></p>

<p>Also, 4 Noble Truths lead to the same process.</p>

<blockquote>
  <p>Then, the Buddha, when further questioned by Potthapāda on what he actually teaches, declares that
  he teaches the 4 noble truths, and his reasons are:</p>
  
  <p>Because</p>
  
  <p>it [their declaration] is connected to the goal;</p>
  
  <p>it is connected to the Dharma;</p>
  
  <p>it belongs to the fundamentals of the holy life;</p>
  
  <p>it leads to revulsion, nibbidāya</p>
  
  <p>to dispassion [letting go], virāgāya</p>
  
  <p>to cessation (of suffering), nirodhāya</p>
  
  <p>to inner peace, upasamāya</p>
  
  <p>to direct knowledge, abhiññāya</p>
  
  <p>to awakening, sambodhāya</p>
  
  <p>to nirvana. nibbānāya savattati</p>
</blockquote>

<p><a href="http://www.themindingcentre.org/dharmafarer/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/7.14-Potthapada-S-d9-piya.pdf" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Potthapāda Sutta</a></p>

<blockquote>
  <p><strong>OP: Is it fair to see the "absence of remorse" as relatively unconditioned</strong></p>
</blockquote>

<p>Free from remorse is conditioned by moral virtue. If one becomes less virtuous then guilt-free state disappears. Every element in the above lists are conditions except for Nirvana.</p>

<blockquote>
  <p>Cittâlakra citta,parikkhr’attha. In other words, the giving is part of one’s cultivation of moral virtue
  as a support for mental cultivation. With abundant moral virtue, it is easier for one to cultivate the mind. Conversely,
  if one finds difficulty in meditating then one should examine one’s moral conduct and rectify any unwholesome
  habits or resolve negative thoughts.</p>
</blockquote>

<p><a href="http://www.themindingcentre.org/dharmafarer/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/2.3_Dana_Mahapphala_S_a7.49_piya_bk.pdf" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Dana Maha-p,phala Sutta</a></p>

<p>In the 1st list above free from remorse give rise to joy. Items 3-7 are related to concentration. So giving supports virtue which supports lack of remorse and from there onwards, the rest follow.</p>
 17076: <p>The first thing here is to understand that the Buddha did not say, as it is almost universally translated: "All conditioned things are impermanent." He said all 'sankharas' are impermanent and sankhara does not mean 'condition'. It means san = own or self; and khara - make, and it means that which is constructed by the individual mind with the idea of creating personal experience. Nibbana is conditioned (paccaya) by following the Magga. </p>

<p>I have laid out the argument for the above in greater detail at:
<a href="http://buddhadust.net/dhammatalk/dhammatalk_forum/dhamma_talk/dt_009.conditioned.vs.own-made.htm" rel="nofollow noreferrer">http://buddhadust.net/dhammatalk/dhammatalk_forum/dhamma_talk/dt_009.conditioned.vs.own-made.htm</a></p>

<p>So the absence of remorse is conditioned, but not being an existing thing, not having been constructed (sankharaed)-- it was the result of not-doing, is not itself subject to ending and is a small taste of Nibbana. Remorse being relative to its cause and the cause being removed the remorse is removed forever. Remorse may return but it will be based on another ill-conceived act.</p>
