user-1: Should we believe we have no enlightenment whatsoever?
I mean, acting like you're the Dalai Lama, famous sage or future Buddha may well come off as offensive and stupid. But if we authentically believe we are identical to a Buddha, just somewhat unrealised, is that as insane and arrogant?
If you are going to answer "that's what you realise" then please provide a reference point.

user254: Personally I read "having" enlightenment as a type of identity view, attributing enlightenment to a "self" as if the self is something -- instead I think it might be "less wrong" for me to consider whether enlightened behavior is or isn't (currently) present.
I think that's the bulk of the way in which it's taught in the suttas -- i.e. "good/skillful behavior is good and leads to nirvana" and so on, the talk is about the behavior not the person (though there is also talk of karma)
Similarly when teaching modern pre-school children, you're supposed to tell them about good and bad behavior -- not try to teach them "you are bad" nor "you have evil", or anything like that, again the subject is various behaviors etc.
But maybe this is just a bit of pedantry on my part -- nit-picking a choice of words, making a distinction that's not worth insisting on -- and not a distinction or a choice of words that I should try to force on you.
And yet, to the extent that "I" have been arrogant and insane myself, perhaps it's a distinction I find helpful -- a "reality check" to try to stop an "ego trip".
But like I tried to say in a previous answer, if you want to see yourself as having an identity that is somehow identical to the Buddha's, who am I criticize, or even to disagree?
It's maybe classically a question of a Middle Way, meaning "neither one extreme nor the other", with "I am unenlightened" being perhaps one extreme, "I am enlightened" being another -- instead the suttas talk about, for example, verified confidence in the three jewels. Confidence, faith, strength, and so on, are important, useful -- maybe the belief that you "have" some enlightenment is more helpful to you somehow, in that way, than it is harmful. I think some people take their confidence not so much from "having" enlightenment but from judging their own intentions, keeping the precepts, generosity too, and so on.
Oh I should mention, the Bikkhuni Sutta -- even if "I have enlightenment" were a form of conceit, the Bikkhuni Sutta implies there's a kind of conceit (like, "if he could do that then so can I") which may be instrumental, necessary:

'This body comes into being through conceit. And yet it is by relying on conceit that conceit is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said? There is the case, sister, where a monk hears, 'The monk named such-and-such, they say, through the ending of the fermentations, has entered & remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for himself in the here & now.' The thought occurs to him, 'The monk named such-and-such, they say, through the ending of the fermentations, has entered & remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for himself in the here & now. Then why not me?' Then he eventually abandons conceit, having relied on conceit. 'This body comes into being through conceit. And yet it is by relying on conceit that conceit is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said, and in reference to this was it said.

As for whether it's insane or arrogant, I find the Zen story titled Nothing Exists:

Yamaoka Tesshu, as a young student of Zen, visited one master after another. He called upon Dokuon of Shokoku.
Desiring to show his attainment, he said: “The mind, Buddha, and sentient beings, after all, do not exist. The true nature of phenomena is emptiness. There is no realization, no delusion, no sage, no mediocrity. There is no giving and nothing to be received.”
Dokuon, who was smoking quietly, said nothing. Suddenly he whacked Yamaoka with his bamboo pipe. This made the youth quite angry.
“If nothing exists,” inquired Dokuon, “where did this anger come from?”

Two things I get from that story, one was the youth "desiring to show his attainment" and the other was Dokuon's question at the end, which I think is a fundamental question or purpose of Buddhism -- i.e. the problems of kilesas, how they originate and how to end them -- the anger (on both sides) maybe coming partly from a wounded pride!

user16635: Let me first say that the problem doesn't exactly lie in the belief that one is a sage or a buddha. The problem arises when one expects to be treated as a sage or buddha by the rest of the world. I mean, there are two sides to this:

The internal state of being awakened (buddha nature) which anyone can realize
The social role of being awakened for others (the role of a sage or a teacher)

Sometimes people become confused because they want to be awakened for themselves — like being awakened for others, where the other is a reflection in a mental mirror — and that can lead to attachments. But recognizing that one has the essence of awakening within one is non-problematic, and arguably an essential aspect of the dharma.
You can think of it like being at a costume party where everyone has forgotten they are wearing masks. You may realize that you're wearing a mask, and understand the essence that lies underneath it. But you can't expect anyone else to realize, because mostly they don't even see that they are wearing masks. You have to find the right attitude that allows that inner essence to reveal itself even through the mask that others see.

user23471: It's interesting that "Should we believe we have no enlightenment?" could be interpreted in two very different ways:
Should practitioners collectively eliminate belief in the concept of enlightenment? Answer is no, because the concept of enlightenment is valuable a goal to work toward, and a basis for admiring and following the Buddha's footsteps.
Should I as a practitioner claim that I possess no wisdom? No, because this is almost never true. Claiming that I have no wisdom, when I do have some, goes against one of the practice of rejoicing in pure activities. So it is good to admit to having some wisdom, but safest to also admit that more still needs to be accumulated. Usually when I have heard people belittling their own wisdom, it seems to be based on avoiding downfall #15 in this Wiki list:


Falsely stating that oneself has realised profound emptiness and that if others meditate as one has, they will realize emptiness and
become as great and as highly realized as oneself.



user11278: According to Theravada teachings assuming that you are enlightened, believing so is discouraged unless you are truly enlightened (at which point it has no value to you anymore). The reason behind avoiding such beliefs is to avoid the practicing Buddhist from becoming stuck in the path to understanding. Simply put, if you believe you have attained Nirvana, you have nothing more to do. But if in reality you have not brought your understanding to Nirvana (an incomplete journey) then you will be limiting yourself by your own declaration, thus prolonging sansara. According to Lord Budhdha's teachings, sansara is not a place to wait or rest - 'Appamado amathapadan' sums this up. One wrong move, and you would be trapped for eons in sansara.
If we look at the essence of enlightenment, we can think of it as seeing through our own bubble (the world) and in doing so, realizing the true nature of the process which we think of as 'myself'. For someone enlightened, there is no requirement to prove that a 'self' exists. As such, an enlightened mind have nothing to gain by declaring enlightenment. An Arhath will only declare enlightenment when that declaration could help someone else to fulfill the understanding towards Nirvana.
Ultimately the real question is not about enlightenment, its about one trying to gain something by declaring their level of understanding. Such an act in itself contradicts the enlightened mind. When you are enlightened, your sense of 'myself' will lose its value, as there is nothing worth clinging into - you have seen through everything in your world and found nothing worth keeping. As there is no one to suffer anymore, you are in the eternal bliss of Nirvana.
On the other hand, one can act like a sage or maybe even try to imitate an Arhath, but such imitation will not bring enlightenment to you. You will be just another actor portraying the qualities of someone else. In fact, this is a classic mistake most of the laypersons make when they observe Sila. This is not to say observing Sila is useless. But at its essence, Sila is not something to observe for the practicing Buddhist. For the practicing Buddhist, its an effect of the understanding, the realization and acceptance of the true nature of the world. The actual cause of his Sila is a realization. In contrast to someone who simply observe Sila as a rule or agreement, the Sila attained as a result of understanding is not a burden to the practitioner, its not limiting him, its not a sacrifice to him. Its simply how he lives because of his realization.
OP, you can start by thinking what would you gain by believing that you are enlightened and mimicking the sages. Not saying its bad, but it will not bring you any closer to enlightenment. And you run the danger of convincing yourself that you are enlightened when you are not! Imagine running 10,000 meters race and celebrating that you won the race before completing the last lap. Do not let all that effort go in vain.
TL,DR; Until you are enlightened, believing so, will become your own hindrance to enlightenment.

-1: <p>Should we believe we have no enlightenment whatsoever?</p>
<p>I mean, acting like you're the Dalai Lama, famous sage or future Buddha may well come off as offensive and stupid. But if we authentically believe we are identical to a Buddha, just somewhat unrealised, is that as insane and arrogant?</p>
<p>If you are going to answer &quot;that's what you realise&quot; then please provide a reference point.</p>
 254: <p>Personally I read &quot;having&quot; enlightenment as a type of identity view, attributing enlightenment to a &quot;self&quot; as if the self is something -- instead I think it might be &quot;less wrong&quot; for me to consider whether enlightened behavior is or isn't (currently) present.</p>
<p>I think that's the bulk of the way in which it's taught in the suttas -- i.e. &quot;good/skillful behavior is good and leads to nirvana&quot; and so on, the talk is about the behavior not the person (though there is also talk of karma)</p>
<p>Similarly when teaching modern pre-school children, you're supposed to tell them about good and bad behavior -- not try to teach them &quot;you <em>are</em> bad&quot; nor &quot;you <em>have</em> evil&quot;, or anything like that, again the subject is various behaviors etc.</p>
<p>But maybe this is just a bit of pedantry on my part -- nit-picking a choice of words, making a distinction that's not worth insisting on -- and not a distinction or a choice of words that I should try to force on you.</p>
<p>And yet, to the extent that &quot;I&quot; have been arrogant and insane myself, perhaps it's a distinction I find helpful -- a &quot;reality check&quot; to try to stop an &quot;ego trip&quot;.</p>
<p>But like I tried to say in a previous answer, if you want to see yourself as having an identity that is somehow identical to the Buddha's, who am I criticize, or even to disagree?</p>
<p>It's maybe classically a question of a Middle Way, meaning &quot;neither one extreme nor the other&quot;, with &quot;I am unenlightened&quot; being perhaps one extreme, &quot;I am enlightened&quot; being another -- instead the suttas talk about, for example, verified confidence in the three jewels. Confidence, faith, strength, and so on, are important, useful -- maybe the belief that you &quot;have&quot; some enlightenment is more helpful to you somehow, in that way, than it is harmful. I think some people take their confidence not so much from &quot;having&quot; enlightenment but from judging their own intentions, keeping the precepts, generosity too, and so on.</p>
<p>Oh I should mention, the <a href="https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.159.than.html" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Bikkhuni Sutta</a> -- even if &quot;I have enlightenment&quot; were a form of conceit, the Bikkhuni Sutta implies there's a kind of conceit (like, &quot;if he could do that then so can I&quot;) which may be instrumental, necessary:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>'This body comes into being through conceit. And yet it is by relying on conceit that conceit is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said? There is the case, sister, where a monk hears, 'The monk named such-and-such, they say, through the ending of the fermentations, has entered &amp; remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release &amp; discernment-release, having known &amp; realized them for himself in the here &amp; now.' The thought occurs to him, 'The monk named such-and-such, they say, through the ending of the fermentations, has entered &amp; remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release &amp; discernment-release, having known &amp; realized them for himself in the here &amp; now. Then why not me?' Then he eventually abandons conceit, having relied on conceit. 'This body comes into being through conceit. And yet it is by relying on conceit that conceit is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said, and in reference to this was it said.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>As for whether it's insane or arrogant, I find the Zen story titled <em>Nothing Exists</em>:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>Yamaoka Tesshu, as a young student of Zen, visited one master after another. He called upon Dokuon of Shokoku.</p>
<p>Desiring to show his attainment, he said: “The mind, Buddha, and sentient beings, after all, do not exist. The true nature of phenomena is emptiness. There is no realization, no delusion, no sage, no mediocrity. There is no giving and nothing to be received.”</p>
<p>Dokuon, who was smoking quietly, said nothing. Suddenly he whacked Yamaoka with his bamboo pipe. This made the youth quite angry.</p>
<p>“If nothing exists,” inquired Dokuon, “where did this anger come from?”</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Two things I get from that story, one was the youth &quot;desiring to show his attainment&quot; and the other was Dokuon's question at the end, which I think is a fundamental question or purpose of Buddhism -- i.e. the problems of <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kleshas_(Buddhism)" rel="nofollow noreferrer">kilesas</a>, how they originate and how to end them -- the anger (on both sides) maybe coming partly from a wounded pride!</p>
 16635: <p>Let me first say that the problem doesn't exactly lie in the belief that one is a sage or a buddha. The problem arises when one expects to be treated as a sage or buddha by the rest of the world. I mean, there are two sides to this:</p>
<ul>
<li>The internal state of being awakened (buddha nature) which anyone can realize</li>
<li>The social role of being awakened <em>for others</em> (the role of a sage or a teacher)</li>
</ul>
<p>Sometimes people become confused because they want to be awakened <em>for themselves</em> — like being awakened <em>for others</em>, where the other is a reflection in a mental mirror — and that can lead to attachments. But recognizing that one has the essence of awakening within one is non-problematic, and arguably an essential aspect of the dharma.</p>
<p>You can think of it like being at a costume party where everyone has forgotten they are wearing masks. <em>You</em> may realize that you're wearing a mask, and understand the essence that lies underneath it. But you can't expect anyone else to realize, because mostly they don't even see that <em>they</em> are wearing masks. You have to find the right attitude that allows that inner essence to reveal itself even through the mask that others see.</p>
 23471: <p>It's interesting that &quot;Should we believe we have no enlightenment?&quot; could be interpreted in two very different ways:</p>
<p><strong>Should practitioners collectively eliminate belief in the concept of enlightenment?</strong> Answer is no, because the concept of enlightenment is valuable a goal to work toward, and a basis for admiring and following the Buddha's footsteps.</p>
<p><strong>Should I as a practitioner claim that I possess no wisdom?</strong> No, because this is almost never true. Claiming that I have no wisdom, when I do have some, goes against one of the practice of <a href="https://www.lamayeshe.com/glossary/seven-limb-practice" rel="nofollow noreferrer">rejoicing in pure activities</a>. So it is good to admit to having some wisdom, but safest to also admit that more still needs to be accumulated. Usually when I have heard people belittling their own wisdom, it seems to be based on avoiding <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhisattva_Precepts#Indo-Tibetan_Buddhism" rel="nofollow noreferrer">downfall #15 in this Wiki list</a>:</p>
<blockquote>
<ol start="15">
<li>Falsely stating that oneself has realised profound emptiness and that if others meditate as one has, they will realize emptiness and
become as great and as highly realized as oneself.</li>
</ol>
</blockquote>
 11278: <p>According to Theravada teachings assuming that you are enlightened, believing so is discouraged unless you are truly enlightened (at which point it has no value to you anymore). The reason behind avoiding such beliefs is to avoid the practicing Buddhist from becoming stuck in the path to understanding. Simply put, if you believe you have attained Nirvana, you have nothing more to do. But if in reality you have not brought your understanding to Nirvana (an incomplete journey) then you will be limiting yourself by your own declaration, thus prolonging sansara. According to Lord Budhdha's teachings, sansara is not a place to wait or rest - '<em>Appamado amathapadan</em>' sums this up. One wrong move, and you would be trapped for eons in sansara.</p>
<p>If we look at the essence of enlightenment, we can think of it as seeing through our own bubble (the world) and in doing so, realizing the true nature of the process which we think of as 'myself'. For someone enlightened, there is no requirement to prove that a 'self' exists. As such, an enlightened mind have nothing to gain by declaring enlightenment. An Arhath will only declare enlightenment when that declaration could help someone else to fulfill the understanding towards Nirvana.</p>
<p>Ultimately the real question is not about enlightenment, its about one trying to gain something by declaring their level of understanding. Such an act in itself contradicts the enlightened mind. When you are enlightened, your sense of 'myself' will lose its value, as there is nothing worth clinging into - you have seen through everything in your world and found nothing worth keeping. As there is no one to suffer anymore, you are in the eternal bliss of Nirvana.</p>
<p>On the other hand, one can act like a sage or maybe even try to imitate an Arhath, but such imitation will not bring enlightenment to you. You will be just another actor portraying the qualities of someone else. In fact, this is a classic mistake most of the laypersons make when they observe Sila. This is not to say observing Sila is useless. But at its essence, Sila is not something to observe for the practicing Buddhist. For the practicing Buddhist, its an effect of the understanding, the realization and acceptance of the true nature of the world. The actual cause of his Sila is a realization. In contrast to someone who simply observe Sila as a rule or agreement, the Sila attained as a result of understanding is not a burden to the practitioner, its not limiting him, its not a sacrifice to him. Its simply how he lives because of his realization.</p>
<p>OP, you can start by thinking what would you gain by believing that you are enlightened and mimicking the sages. Not saying its bad, but it will not bring you any closer to enlightenment. And you run the danger of convincing yourself that you are enlightened when you are not! Imagine running 10,000 meters race and celebrating that you won the race before completing the last lap. Do not let all that effort go in vain.</p>
<p>TL,DR; Until you are enlightened, believing so, will become your own hindrance to enlightenment.</p>
