user16806: In AN 8.66 the Buddha says, "Not perceiving form internally, they see visions externally. This is the second liberation".
I am totally confused here. If by 'form' we mean body, how not to perceive it internally. And what is meant by 'see visions externally'?

user13709: Regarding what is seen, a key part to the more detailed instruction on visions is found an AN10.29. The detailed instruction focuses on how visions are perceived (i.e., "pretty or ugly") and not on what is perceived.

AN10.29:8.1: Not perceiving form internally, someone sees visions externally, limited, both pretty and ugly. Mastering them, they perceive: ‘I know and see.’

Mastering such visions therefore requires understanding and letting go of the associated attraction/repulsion. That takes skill because everyday convention follows pretty and avoids ugly. Mastering that flood of convention requires letting go of the underlying tendency to crave pretty and avoid ugly. For example, if one sees someone pretty or ugly externally, to master that perception one would focus on the truth that we are all bags of bones.

SN22.76:9.1: The master’s knowledge has arisen: ‘This bag of bones is my last.’


user16297: First thing, you shouldn't be relying on B. Sujato's translation for meditation specific terms. He has gross misunderstandings of key words like kāya (physical body), rūpa (in meditation context, usually means 4 elements of physical body of meditator). So in his translation, he inconsistently translates rupa sometimes as 'physical form', sometimes as 'vision', according to his wrong understanding of jhana and arupa samadhi.
Going by a straightforward, and correct EBT interpretation, 'rupa' translates consistently as 'physical form of  the anatomical body made up of 4 elements and 6 sense bases active - you can see, hear, touch, etc.'
So the first base of liberation (vimutti), having form (rupa) and seeing form is referring to the point of view of being in the 4 jhanas, where the 6 sense bases of the physical body are active.
The second base of liberation, one is in an a-rupa (form-less) samadhi attainment, you are in a meditative state where you can't perceive your own physical form of body anymore, can't hear sounds, 6 sense bases are divorced from the mind. But you can perceive external forms, for example seeing visions of the rupa (form, 4 elements) of external world, other beings, etc.

16806: <p>In <a href="https://suttacentral.net/an8.66/en/sujato#an8.66:3.1" rel="nofollow noreferrer">AN 8.66</a> the Buddha says, &quot;<em>Not perceiving form internally, they see visions externally. This is the second liberation</em>&quot;.</p>
<p>I am totally confused here. If by '<em>form</em>' we mean <strong>body</strong>, how not to perceive it internally. And what is meant by <em>'see visions externally'</em>?</p>
 13709: <p>Regarding what is seen, a key part to the more detailed instruction on visions is found an AN10.29. The detailed instruction focuses on <em>how</em> visions are perceived (i.e., &quot;pretty or ugly&quot;) and not on <em>what</em> is perceived.</p>
<blockquote>
<p><a href="https://suttacentral.net/an10.29/en/sujato#an10.29:8.1" rel="nofollow noreferrer">AN10.29:8.1</a>: Not perceiving form internally, someone sees visions externally, limited, both <strong>pretty and ugly.</strong> Mastering them, they perceive: ‘I know and see.’</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Mastering such visions therefore requires understanding and letting go of the associated attraction/repulsion. That takes skill because everyday convention follows pretty and avoids ugly. Mastering that flood of convention requires letting go of the underlying tendency to crave pretty and avoid ugly. For example, if one sees someone pretty or ugly externally, to master that perception one would focus on the truth that we are all bags of bones.</p>
<blockquote>
<p><a href="https://suttacentral.net/sn22.76/en/sujato#sn22.76:9.1" rel="nofollow noreferrer">SN22.76:9.1</a>: The master’s knowledge has arisen: ‘This bag of bones is my last.’</p>
</blockquote>
 16297: <p>First thing, you shouldn't be relying on B. Sujato's translation for meditation specific terms. He has gross misunderstandings of key words like kāya (physical body), rūpa (in meditation context, usually means 4 elements of physical body of meditator). So in his translation, he inconsistently translates rupa sometimes as 'physical form', sometimes as 'vision', according to his wrong understanding of jhana and arupa samadhi.</p>
<p>Going by a straightforward, and correct EBT interpretation, 'rupa' translates consistently as 'physical form of  the anatomical body made up of 4 elements and 6 sense bases active - you can see, hear, touch, etc.'</p>
<p>So the first base of liberation (vimutti), having form (rupa) and seeing form is referring to the point of view of being in the 4 jhanas, where the 6 sense bases of the physical body are active.</p>
<p>The second base of liberation, one is in an a-rupa (form-less) samadhi attainment, you are in a meditative state where you can't perceive your own physical form of body anymore, can't hear sounds, 6 sense bases are divorced from the mind. But you can perceive external forms, for example seeing visions of the rupa (form, 4 elements) of external world, other beings, etc.</p>
