user7141: **

I was trying to figure out the meaning of Non-self one day and
stumbled upon this idea. Please bear with me as this is a bit long...

**
There are four great elements which are responsible for all conceivable objects and forms. If we take a human being, we have a body made of the 4 great elements and a consciousness. As we know there is no such thing called a person beyond the grammatical meaning, therefore neither mind or body is a person or a soul or any such thing.
Let's expand this to a universal level, the same way a body host a consciousness, the universe hosts all consciousnesses. So the assumption here is that 4 great elements provide the infrastructure for the birth of a consciousness. if we forget the identities like human,animal,heavenly,etc, what we have is a sea of 4 great elements that facilitate the existence of all so called "beings". this shows an uncanny resemblance to what we call a being.
- Allow me to elaborate -
A body is a housing for a consciousness, the body consist of the 4 elements.
The universe is a housing for consciousnesses, the universe consist of the 4 elements.
Take into account that according to the teaching, the consciousness is not a permanent one, it is explained as a static that occurs and ceases with every though,recognition,comparison,etc.
Taken as a static, a consciousness does not even last a second. Bearing this in mind, allow me to end the question.
*

If consciousness is a static like phenomenon, and the body taken out
of its uniformed identity resembles the universe itself, can one find
that the non-self idea within this context?

I know that this is very philosophical, but this is how Buddhism's discussions have happened in the canon and the only way to discuss
deeper concepts. as i expecct my friends here to be more than
signposts that point directions, i have asked this here and i hope the
question is not going to be flagged or deleted because of its long and
philosophical nature.**



user111: 
"Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will
  speak."
"As you say, lord," the monks responded.
The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear &
  sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations,
  intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. [1] Anyone who
  would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if
  questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement,
  would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief.
  Why? Because it lies beyond range."
  - Sabba Sutta

Universe is a concept. What you call universe in reality is just eye & forms, ear & sounds etc. etc.
So the eye & forms are not-self, ear and sounds are not-self...
This idea you have been contemplating represents(in reality) just the mind and thoughts which are also not-self.

user-1: To say that "all consciousness is not permanent" may be going too far.
Quoted below is form "Paradox of becoming" by Thanissaro Bhikkhu, as it read ‘Consciousness without surface, without end, luminous all around is permanent and lie outside the aggregates.
.....................................................................

SN 35:23 indicates that the “all” in “all that is sensed, being
unrelished, will grow cold right here” denotes the six sense media.
The term “Such” refers to the fact that the arahant’s attainment is
effortlessly unaffected by the arising or passing away of anything
related to the six senses. Because sensory consciousness arises in
dependence on the six sense media, this Suchness is unaffected at the
arahant’s death, when sensory consciousness totally ends.
However, a third analogy raises the question of whether there is another mode of
consciousness unaffected by the arahant’s death. In this analogy,
awakened consciousness is depicted not as a seed but as a beam of
light, the four nutriments of consciousness are the various places
where a beam of light might land, while passion and delight are the
means of its landing.
“Where there is no passion for the nutriment of
physical food, where there is no delight, no craving, then
consciousness does not land there or  118 grow. Where consciousness
does not land or grow, name-&-form does not alight. Where name-&-form
does not alight, there is no growth of fabrications. Where there is no
growth of fabrications, there is no production of renewed becoming in
the future. Where there is no production of renewed becoming in the
future, there is no future birth, aging, & death. That, I tell you,
has no sorrow, affliction, or despair.
[Similarly with the nutriment
of contact, intellectual intention, and consciousness.]
“Just as if
there were a roofed house or a roofed hall having windows on the
north, the south, or the east. When the sun rises, and a ray has
entered by way of the window, where does it land?” “On the western
wall, lord.” “And if there is no western wall, where does it land?”
“On the ground, lord.” “And if there is no ground, where does it
land?” “On the water, lord.” “And if there is no water, where does it
land?” “It does not land, lord.”
“In the same way, where there is no
passion for the nutriment of physical food … contact … intellectual
intention … consciousness, where there is no delight, no craving, then
consciousness does not land there or grow. Where consciousness does
not land or grow, name-&-form does not alight. Where name-&-form does
not alight, there is no growth of fabrications. Where there is no
growth of fabrications, there is no production of renewed becoming in
the future. Where there is no production of renewed becoming in the
future, there is no future birth, aging, & death. That, I tell you,
has no sorrow, affliction, or despair.” — SN 12:64
This analogy does
not specifically state whether it refers to the arahant before or
after death. However, in the context of this analogy, the beam of
light depends on the wall, the ground, etc., only for the fact of its
appearance and growth within space and time. This suggests that it
otherwise would not be affected when the nutriments disappear. Thus
the analogy would refer to the arahant both before and after death.
This interpretation is supported by two contexts, one authorial and
the other textual. The authorial context is that if the Buddha’s
Awakening had revealed that total Unbinding was a state of total
unconsciousness, he would never have thought of using this analogy to
describe the awakened state.
The textual context is provided by MN 49,
which states that—in contrast to the consciousness of an unawakened
being, which is known only through its interaction with kamma—the
arahant’s knowledge of unconditioned consciousness is totally
unmediated.
“‘Having directly known the all [the six sense media and
their objects—see SN 35:23] as the all, and having directly known the
extent of what has not been experienced through the allness of the
all, I wasn’t the all, I wasn’t in the all, I wasn’t coming forth from
the all, I wasn’t “The all is mine.” I didn’t affirm the all ….
“‘Consciousness without surface, without end, luminous all around,
has not been experienced through the earthness of earth … the liquidity of
liquid … the fieriness of fire … the windiness of wind … the
being-ness of beings … the deva-ness of devas … the Pajapati-ness of
Pajapati … the brahma-ness of Brahma … the radiant-ness of the radiant
(devas) … the beautiful black-ness of the beautiful black (devas) …
the sky-fruit-ness of the sky-fruit (devas) … the conqueror-ness of
the conqueror … the allness of the all.’” — MN 49


user43: As you correctly assumed, consciousness is not a separate essence distinct from the four elements. Consciousness emerges based on the form. In other words, consciousness is a property or a dynamic aspect of form+anicca. Consciousness is living, flowing in-form-ation. Not a static piece of information, but non-discrete (analogue?) information that flows as everything in the universe is in motion and interacts.
So consciousness is not something inside human body that starts with birth and ends with death. But we can't say that consciousness permeates the universe and is eternal, that would be a miscategorization. There is nothing like "one" consciousness at the universal level. Consciousness is not continuous, it is emergent, ephemeral.
Information is not separate from its media. Information is media, media is information. Same way, consciousness does not literally exist, just like information, consciousness is implicit in its media - the endless flow of things. 
Now, I only used the word "consciousness" because that's what you used, so I wanted it to sound familiar to you. Strictly speaking, we can only talk about consciousness in context of a sentient being. At the level of the universe we could say that consciousness is the hidden spirit or the hidden soul of things, but to use such words would be very confusing. In the universal context I prefer to use a more general word "mind". Mind at large is not self-aware, while consciousness usually develops a notion of self, atta. It's kinda funny to talk about it like this, because consciousness is mind, but we are at the limit of words here.
Anyway, what should be clear is that consciousness is not atta, mind is not atta - atta is a concept that emerges as consciousness in its representational or modeling activity comes up with an object to stand for the subject of interactions and the enjoyer of future results. This is what's described in the Twelve Nidanas, the process by which the notion of self develops through a series of implications or inferences.
Implication is a process by which something is created as a side-product of declaring something else. When we say "this is up" - we're creating "down" implicitly:

When the world sees beauty,
  Then ugly exists.
  When sees good,
  Then bad exists.  
Therefore:
  What is and what is not create each other.
  Difficult and easy complement each other.
  Tall and short shape each other.
  High and low rest on each other.  

This is called "this-that conditionality", in Pali Idappaccayatā
This-that conditionality is the mechanism behind Twelve Nidanas, behind the Second and Third Noble Truths, behind Four Immeasurable Abodes, behind First Jhana.
When we create one side, we create the other. When we hate for one side, we crave for the other. When we praise one side, we blame the other. So, when we learn to release one side, we learn to release the other.
"Self" and "world" mutually co-create each other. If we let go of world, we let go of self. If we let go of self, we let go of world. To let go of world is to stop hating the world, or craving for the world, or have any attitude or preference towards the world. To let go of self is the same. That is the end of asava, the preferential attitude, the end of the basis for craving, therefore the end of dukkha.

user-1: From my point of view, you are stating the following: the human body, made of four elements and consciousness, resembles the universe which is also four elements and consciousness. Beyond this formal comparison, I believe you meant to say consciousness is dynamic, given you say the teaching states it is not permanent. It is indeed composed of discrete moments of cognition, according to the Abhidhamma. With these two aspects, you wonder whether the anatman concept can be found therein. 
I believe you are alluding to two different things, both of which partially cover the meaning of no-self. The first is the similarity of forms, and therefore the meaninglessness of their distinction. The second is the dissection of the self into parts.
In the first case, one might argue that given the body and the universe share the four elements and consciousness, they are similar, which is what you have done. One might add that these characteristics do not define the body or the universe. This type of reasoning, whereby the identity of a given object is sought, but invalidated because of other objects with similar characteristics (e.g. a table has legs, but so does a chair), can lead to a certain understanding. This understanding is of the self being dissolved by lack of identity, by being indistinct from otherness. The self simply doesn't exist intrinsically, but exists, to refer to Nagarjuna, as dependently originated. That is to say it exists in interconnection with other phenomena. 
The second point you put forward is the non-entity status of consciousness, its existence as fragmentary parts. Indeed, a Tibetan master once exposed to my group, at a temple, that emptiness was about division into parts. Because everything can be separated, again and again, in different ways, the self doesn't subsist as a complete and solid entity. Since consciousness occurs through connections always different -- i.e. a moment of consciousness depends of its proximate and subsequent equivalents -- then the self is never the same. As a river flows with continuously different water, but stays the same river, the self appears whole and static but is made up of parts. 
While these two answers show certain aspects of reality, a mere conceptual understanding is obviously not sufficient. Such paradigms need to be considered thoroughly through meditation, and in different ways. Vipassana in itself sees reality without the need of a theoretical overarching structure. This shows familiarization through contemplation, and not just literal learning, provides benefits; even this shows such notions don't exist in themselves, in the mind, but require different angles of approach to fully generate insight. 
These are merely some aspects of anatman. Many others exist. 
Hopefully, this answers some questions. 
Eggman. 

7141: <p>**</p>
<blockquote>
<p>I was trying to figure out the meaning of Non-self one day and
stumbled upon this idea. Please bear with me as this is a bit long...</p>
</blockquote>
<p>**</p>
<p>There are four great elements which are responsible for all conceivable objects and forms. If we take a human being, we have a body made of the 4 great elements and a consciousness. As we know there is no such thing called a person beyond the grammatical meaning, therefore neither mind or body is a person or a soul or any such thing.</p>
<p>Let's expand this to a universal level, the same way a body host a consciousness, the universe hosts all consciousnesses. So the assumption here is that 4 great elements provide the infrastructure for the birth of a consciousness. if we forget the identities like human,animal,heavenly,etc, what we have is a sea of 4 great elements that facilitate the existence of all so called &quot;beings&quot;. this shows an uncanny resemblance to what we call a being.</p>
<p><strong>- Allow me to elaborate -</strong></p>
<p>A body is a housing for a consciousness, the body consist of the 4 elements.
The universe is a housing for consciousnesses, the universe consist of the 4 elements.</p>
<p>Take into account that according to the teaching, the consciousness is not a permanent one, it is explained as a static that occurs and ceases with every though,recognition,comparison,etc.</p>
<p>Taken as a static, a consciousness does not even last a second. Bearing this in mind, allow me to end the question.</p>
<p>*</p>
<blockquote>
<p>If consciousness is a static like phenomenon, and the body taken out
of its uniformed identity resembles the universe itself, can one find
that the non-self idea within this context?</p>
<ul>
<li><em><strong>I know that this is very philosophical, but this is how Buddhism's discussions have happened in the canon and the only way to discuss
deeper concepts. as i expecct my friends here to be more than
signposts that point directions, i have asked this here and i hope the
question is not going to be flagged or deleted because of its long and
philosophical nature</strong></em>.**</li>
</ul>
</blockquote>
 111: <blockquote>
  <p>"Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen &amp; pay close attention. I will
  speak."</p>
  
  <p>"As you say, lord," the monks responded.</p>
  
  <p>The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye &amp; forms, ear &amp;
  sounds, nose &amp; aromas, tongue &amp; flavors, body &amp; tactile sensations,
  intellect &amp; ideas. This, monks, is called the All. [1] Anyone who
  would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if
  questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement,
  would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief.
  Why? Because it lies beyond range."<br>
  - Sabba Sutta</p>
</blockquote>

<p>Universe is a concept. What you call universe in reality is just eye &amp; forms, ear &amp; sounds etc. etc.</p>

<p>So the eye &amp; forms are not-self, ear and sounds are not-self...
This idea you have been contemplating represents(in reality) just the mind and thoughts which are also not-self.</p>
 -1: <p>To say that &quot;all consciousness is not permanent&quot; may be going too far.</p>
<p>Quoted below is form &quot;<a href="http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/paradoxofbecoming.pdf" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Paradox of becoming</a>&quot; by Thanissaro Bhikkhu, as it read ‘Consciousness without surface, without end, luminous all around is permanent and lie outside the aggregates.
.....................................................................</p>
<blockquote>
<p>SN 35:23 indicates that the “all” in “all that is sensed, being
unrelished, will grow cold right here” denotes the six sense media.
The term “Such” refers to the fact that the arahant’s attainment is
effortlessly unaffected by the arising or passing away of anything
related to the six senses. Because sensory consciousness arises in
dependence on the six sense media, this Suchness is unaffected at the
arahant’s death, when sensory consciousness totally ends.</p>
<p>However, a third analogy raises the question of whether there is another mode of
consciousness unaffected by the arahant’s death. In this analogy,
awakened consciousness is depicted not as a seed but as a beam of
light, the four nutriments of consciousness are the various places
where a beam of light might land, while passion and delight are the
means of its landing.</p>
<p>“Where there is no passion for the nutriment of
physical food, where there is no delight, no craving, then
consciousness does not land there or  118 grow. Where consciousness
does not land or grow, name-&amp;-form does not alight. Where name-&amp;-form
does not alight, there is no growth of fabrications. Where there is no
growth of fabrications, there is no production of renewed becoming in
the future. Where there is no production of renewed becoming in the
future, there is no future birth, aging, &amp; death. That, I tell you,
has no sorrow, affliction, or despair.</p>
<p>[Similarly with the nutriment
of contact, intellectual intention, and consciousness.]</p>
<p>“Just as if
there were a roofed house or a roofed hall having windows on the
north, the south, or the east. When the sun rises, and a ray has
entered by way of the window, where does it land?” “On the western
wall, lord.” “And if there is no western wall, where does it land?”
“On the ground, lord.” “And if there is no ground, where does it
land?” “On the water, lord.” “And if there is no water, where does it
land?” “It does not land, lord.”</p>
<p>“In the same way, where there is no
passion for the nutriment of physical food … contact … intellectual
intention … consciousness, where there is no delight, no craving, then
consciousness does not land there or grow. Where consciousness does
not land or grow, name-&amp;-form does not alight. Where name-&amp;-form does
not alight, there is no growth of fabrications. Where there is no
growth of fabrications, there is no production of renewed becoming in
the future. Where there is no production of renewed becoming in the
future, there is no future birth, aging, &amp; death. That, I tell you,
has no sorrow, affliction, or despair.” — SN 12:64</p>
<p>This analogy does
not specifically state whether it refers to the arahant before or
after death. However, in the context of this analogy, the beam of
light depends on the wall, the ground, etc., only for the fact of its
appearance and growth within space and time. This suggests that it
otherwise would not be affected when the nutriments disappear. Thus
the analogy would refer to the arahant both before and after death.</p>
<p>This interpretation is supported by two contexts, one authorial and
the other textual. The authorial context is that if the Buddha’s
Awakening had revealed that total Unbinding was a state of total
unconsciousness, he would never have thought of using this analogy to
describe the awakened state.</p>
<p>The textual context is provided by MN 49,
which states that—in contrast to the consciousness of an unawakened
being, which is known only through its interaction with kamma—the
arahant’s knowledge of unconditioned consciousness is totally
unmediated.</p>
<p>“‘Having directly known the all [the six sense media and
their objects—see SN 35:23] as the all, and having directly known the
extent of what has not been experienced through the allness of the
all, I wasn’t the all, I wasn’t in the all, I wasn’t coming forth from
the all, I wasn’t “The all is mine.” I didn’t affirm the all ….</p>
<p>“‘Consciousness without surface, without end, luminous all around,</p>
<p>has not been experienced through the earthness of earth … the liquidity of
liquid … the fieriness of fire … the windiness of wind … the
being-ness of beings … the deva-ness of devas … the Pajapati-ness of
Pajapati … the brahma-ness of Brahma … the radiant-ness of the radiant
(devas) … the beautiful black-ness of the beautiful black (devas) …
the sky-fruit-ness of the sky-fruit (devas) … the conqueror-ness of
the conqueror … the allness of the all.’” — MN 49</p>
</blockquote>
 43: <p>As you correctly assumed, consciousness is not a separate essence distinct from the four elements. Consciousness emerges based on the form. In other words, consciousness is a property or a dynamic aspect of form+anicca. Consciousness is living, flowing in-form-ation. Not a static piece of information, but non-discrete (analogue?) information that flows as everything in the universe is in motion and interacts.</p>

<p>So consciousness is not something inside human body that starts with birth and ends with death. But we can't say that consciousness permeates the universe and is eternal, that would be a miscategorization. There is nothing like "one" consciousness at the universal level. Consciousness is not continuous, it is emergent, ephemeral.</p>

<p>Information is not separate from its media. Information is media, media is information. Same way, consciousness does not literally exist, just like information, consciousness is implicit in its media - the endless flow of things. </p>

<p>Now, I only used the word "consciousness" because that's what you used, so I wanted it to sound familiar to you. Strictly speaking, we can only talk about consciousness in context of a sentient being. At the level of the universe we could say that consciousness is the hidden spirit or the hidden soul of things, but to use such words would be very confusing. In the universal context I prefer to use a more general word "mind". Mind at large is not self-aware, while consciousness usually develops a notion of self, atta. It's kinda funny to talk about it like this, because consciousness <em>is</em> mind, but we are at the limit of words here.</p>

<p>Anyway, what should be clear is that consciousness is not atta, mind is not atta - atta is a concept that emerges as consciousness in its representational or modeling activity comes up with an object to stand for the subject of interactions and the enjoyer of future results. This is what's described in the Twelve Nidanas, the process by which the notion of self develops through a series of implications or inferences.</p>

<p>Implication is a process by which something is created as a side-product of declaring something else. When we say "this is up" - we're creating "down" implicitly:</p>

<blockquote>
  <p>When the world sees beauty,<br>
  Then ugly exists.<br>
  When sees good,<br>
  Then bad exists.  </p>
  
  <p>Therefore:
  What is and what is not create each other.<br>
  Difficult and easy complement each other.<br>
  Tall and short shape each other.<br>
  High and low rest on each other.  </p>
</blockquote>

<p>This is called "this-that conditionality", in Pali <code>Idappaccayatā</code></p>

<p><em>This-that conditionality</em> is the mechanism behind Twelve Nidanas, behind the Second and Third Noble Truths, behind Four Immeasurable Abodes, behind First Jhana.</p>

<p>When we create one side, we create the other. When we hate for one side, we crave for the other. When we praise one side, we blame the other. So, when we learn to release one side, we learn to release the other.</p>

<p>"Self" and "world" mutually co-create each other. If we let go of world, we let go of self. If we let go of self, we let go of world. To let go of world is to stop hating the world, or craving for the world, or have any attitude or preference towards the world. To let go of self is the same. That is the end of asava, the preferential attitude, the end of the basis for craving, therefore the end of dukkha.</p>
 -1: <p>From my point of view, you are stating the following: the human body, made of four elements and consciousness, resembles the universe which is also four elements and consciousness. Beyond this formal comparison, I believe you meant to say consciousness is <em>dynamic</em>, given you say the teaching states it is not permanent. It is indeed composed of discrete moments of cognition, according to the Abhidhamma. With these two aspects, you wonder whether the <em>anatman</em> concept can be found therein. </p>

<p>I believe you are alluding to two different things, both of which partially cover the meaning of no-self. The first is the similarity of forms, and therefore the meaninglessness of their distinction. The second is the dissection of the self into parts.</p>

<p>In the first case, one might argue that given the body and the universe share the four elements and consciousness, they are similar, which is what you have done. One might add that these characteristics do not <em>define</em> the body or the universe. This type of reasoning, whereby the identity of a given object is sought, but invalidated because of other objects with similar characteristics (e.g. a table has legs, but so does a chair), can lead to a certain understanding. This understanding is of the self being dissolved by lack of identity, by being indistinct from otherness. The self simply doesn't exist intrinsically, but exists, to refer to Nagarjuna, as <em>dependently originated</em>. That is to say it exists in interconnection with other phenomena. </p>

<p>The second point you put forward is the non-entity status of consciousness, its existence as fragmentary parts. Indeed, a Tibetan master once exposed to my group, at a temple, that emptiness was about <em>division into parts</em>. Because everything can be separated, again and again, in different ways, the self doesn't subsist as a complete and solid entity. Since consciousness occurs through connections always different -- i.e. a moment of consciousness depends of its proximate and subsequent equivalents -- then the self is never the same. As a river flows with continuously different water, but stays the same river, the self <em>appears</em> whole and static but is made up of parts. </p>

<p>While these two answers show certain aspects of reality, a mere conceptual understanding is obviously not sufficient. Such paradigms need to be considered thoroughly through meditation, and in different ways. Vipassana in itself sees reality without the need of a theoretical overarching structure. This shows familiarization through contemplation, and not just literal learning, provides benefits; even <em>this</em> shows such notions don't exist in themselves, in the mind, but require different angles of approach to fully generate insight. </p>

<p>These are merely <em>some</em> aspects of <em>anatman</em>. Many others exist. </p>

<p>Hopefully, this answers some questions. </p>

<p>Eggman. </p>
