Who really dreamed up this $6 carbon price? As Ellis says, it will go up I wonder whether Climate Change Minister Mark Butler told the truth about who came up with the $6 figure of a likely carbon price next year: CHRIS UHLMANN: Is it treasury figure or is it your figure? That price of six dollars is the price at the moment, that doesn't mean that's what it's going to be in 2014/15. And you will be aware of course that the Europeans are trying to force that price up at the moment so where do you get six dollars from? MARK BUTLER: Well your viewers will be comforted by the fact that I don't make these figures, we ask Treasury for proper advice and proper forecasts about what they think the European price will be in 2014/15, and advice about whether our price, Australia's price is likely to converge with that. That was the advice of Treasury and it is appropriate that once we get that advice that is the basis for our costings and our - ultimately our savings process. I seriously doubt anyone in Treasury really thinks Europe's carbon price 11 months from now will still be $6 in Australian money. I may be wrong, but I'd like to see the Treasury documents that back up what Butler says. Childcare Minister Kate Ellis has one of those awful moments on ABC radio when she realises she told the truth about Rudd's carbon tax. Let's drop in on her chat with 891 ABC's Matthew Abraham and David Bevan, with a contribution from the Liberals" Christopher Pyne: ELLIS: This is a complicated policy. Many people wouldn't know what the difference between a carbon price and an Emissions Trading Scheme is to begin with, but what we've said is that we believe that we'd have a fixed price so you can get some certainty in the system, you can settle in, and then we were always going to a floating price in an Emissions Treading Scheme. Business has said that they're ready to go, they've lobbied for this to be bought forward, we're also hearing from the community that they have cost of living pressures and there are lot of claims, â¦.we heard about prices going up, prices going down. One thing that we have seen the whole time throughout this debate is a lot of different claims and counter claims about prices. And the one thing that's been consistent is the accuracy of Treasury modelling. Now, Treasury is telling us that this will reduce both electricity and gas price prices and I think that's good news for our community. BEVAN: Well the same Treasury is also predicting that the price will go back upon to $25 a tonne by 2017/18, so in four year's time, will we be paying a lot more for carbon? ELLIS: And we will be paying what's in line with the international trading scheme, we will be competing on a level playing field with other countries and other sectors and we think that's a very good thing. BEVAN: But you will be putting back up the cost of household power bills. ELLIS: Absolutely, this will be a floating price and it will move up and down â BEVAN: It's only going to go up according to the Treasury officials that you say are on the ball. ELLIS: Absolutely, and it will move in line with international markets so that we know that Australian consumers and Australian business is not disadvantaged. ABRAHAM: When it moves back up, won't all those electricity savings be wiped out? ELLIS: One of things that â of course those savings will move which is one of the reasons why â ABRAHAM: Oh no they won't move, they won't get better will they? ELLIS: -which is one of the reasons why we are keeping in place all of our assistance packagesâ¦.. Later: PYNE: â¦.the Labor Party's deal is an absolute dud. I mean Kate Ellis just admitted on your program and you put it to her that prices will go up again. She said â absolutely. When you said to her â will the carbon tax price go up again? She said absolutely, so she's twice on your show this morning â¦.. Later again: PYNE: â¦He (Rudd) supported the carbon tax, he supported increasing the carbon tax on July the 1st, he voted for it. Now he says he's terminating the carbon tax when he's not actually abolishing the carbon tax and Kate Ellis has admitted that this morning on your program â ELLIS: I've done absolutely no such thing Christopher. PYNE: Well you did. You said absolutely electricity prices would go up again, your word. You said absolutely the carbon price would go up again, your word â and I'm sure that will come back to bite you for the rest of the day.