Black and White: Charles Murray and Baratunde Thurston Quiz Each Other Charles Murray's book "Coming Apart: The State of White America, 1960-2010" about the class divide in white America, hits The New York Times hardcover nonfiction best-seller list at No. 9 this week. Mr. Murray - whose previous book, "The Bell Curve," spent 15 weeks on the list in 1994-95 - devotes a chapter in "Coming Apart" to a quiz measuring how much his upper-middle-class readers know about "the rest of America." It includes questions about domestic beer, Nascar and "Desperate Housewives." As it happens, Baratunde Thurston's book "How to Be Black," at No. 24 on the e-book nonfiction best-seller list (and No. 21 on the extended hardcover list), also features a set of questions about cultural identity, including "Where did you get that name?" and "How black are you?" In the spirit of journalistic mischief, I invited Mr. Murray to answer Mr. Thurston's questions and vice versa, letting Mr. Murray substitute "white" for "black" where appropriate. Murray Answers Thurston's Questions Where did you get that name? My paternal grandfather was a Charles and my middle name, Alan, was my dad's name. About as white-bread a way to get first and middle names as there is. When did you first realize you were white? I grew up in an Iowa town of about 15,000 with one black family, no Asians, no Latinos, and two Jewish families. So basically it was a town of about 14,988 white Christians (or nominally Christian, anyway). So it must have taken a long time to realize I was white. I do remember being fascinated by Ebony magazine, which was carried at the local library, and poring through it when I was in grade school. So I had to know I was white by the time I was 7 or 8. How white are you? Well, I did live for six years in a foreign culture (Thailand), and deep in it - not in the expat community - was married for 13 years to a Thai woman, used to speak Thai fluently. But I'm still really, really white - which is to say, I'm a white Iowan, that which there is nothing whiter. Everything Garrison Keillor says about Minnesotans goes double for Iowans. Do you know what an Oreo is? Yes! But surely there can't be anybody over the age of 40 who doesn't know the answer to this question. I will add that the Oreo concept drove me nuts. While I was writing "Losing Ground," I was a volunteer tutor for the HAP program in D.C., which provided after-school enrichment for the kids in the D.C. public schools who were doing the best (what a revolutionary concept: provide support to kids who were achieving). These students had to swim against a tide of accusations of being Oreos, "acting white" and the rest. We all know how powerful peer pressure is when you're young. White racism was a trivial barrier (in my view) to the future of these children compared to the damage done by the Oreo concept. Why are you wearing that black man's jersey? This seems to be the right way to amend Thurston's question "Why are you wearing that white man over your heart?" Somebody asked this to one of Thurston's classmates in reference to the team logo on his Raiders N.F.L. Starter jacket; Thurston uses it as the entree to a discussion about black pride, separatism and assimilation. Hundreds of thousands - maybe millions - of white kids wear the basketball or football jersey of their hero, and that hero is black. That's nice. Have you ever wanted to not be white? Why would I want a thing like that? All I've heard since I came of age is that we whites get all the breaks. Can you swim? Yes, but in sort of a black way. How's that post-racial thing working out for ya? Actually, pretty well. I've been noticing the last few years how normal and easy the relationships I see between blacks and whites have become. The bending-over-backward stuff of the 1970s and "80s has largely disappeared, at least in my neck of the woods (rural Maryland). There's a lot of just-folks-getting-long interactions around these days. It's especially noticeable in my children's generation, but people in their 50s and 60s also seem to be doing a lot better than they used to. Thurston Answers Murray's Questions Have you ever lived for at least a year in an American neighborhood in which the majority of your 50 nearest neighbors probably did not have college degrees? My neighborhood of Columbia Heights in Washington, D.C., fit this description for the 13 years in which I lived there. With all the gentrification of D.C. I'm not sure it would meet that criteria today. I mean, there's a Target and a wine bar in the neighborhood now. Did you grow up in a family in which the chief breadwinner was not in a managerial job or a high-prestige profession (deﬁned as attorney, physician, dentist, architect, engineer, scientist or college professor)? Yes, sort of. My mother transitioned steadily upward in her profession before and during my lifetime. I knew her as a computer programmer but she held paralegal, secretarial and domestic jobs before that, so I'm not sure. Have you ever lived for at least a year in an American community under 50,000 population that is not part of a metropolitan area and was not where your college was located? I don't suppose Boston counts. It can feel so tiny sometimes! Now I'm in New York where I'm pretty sure 50,000 people live in my apartment building. Have you ever lived for at least a year in the United States at a family income that was close to or below the poverty line? You may answer "yes" if your family income then was below $30,000 in 2010 dollars. Graduate school doesn't count. Living unemployed with your family after college doesn't count. Take your best guess. I'd have to check my mom's pay stubs, which she left behind. We may have been close, but I'm pretty sure the answer is no. I know we were never on government assistance but she did declare bankruptcy at one point during my childhood. Have you ever walked on a factory ﬂoor? Have you ever held a job that caused something to hurt at the end of the day? I was a corporate strategy consultant for years. I know carpal tunnel doesn't count, but how about pain in my soul? Also, being black can sometimes be painful by the end of the day. Seriously, though, I did part-time landscaping, moving and janitoring (new verb!) during my school years. Have you ever had a close friend who was an evangelical Christian? If you're an evangelical Christian and a friend of mine, I guess you just found out we were not "close." I do feel I should get points for having read the entire "Left Behind" series, however. Do you now have a close friend with whom you have strong and wide-ranging political disagreements? Yes, thanks to Facebook. Have you ever had a close friend who could seldom get better than Cs in high school even if he or she tried hard? During the last month, have you voluntarily hung out with people who were smoking cigarettes? Yes, though I judged them heavily for it. What military ranks do these ﬁve insignia represent? They all represent the ranks of people who can kick my butt. Choose one. Who is Jimmie Johnson? Or: Have you ever purchased Avon products? I thought Jimmie Johnson was coach of the Dallas Cowboys, but that's Jimmy with a y. This dude drives Nascar, and I didn't know that. As for Avon, nope, but my mom was a very serious seller of Tupperware back in the day. I was forced to attend the parties. Have you or your spouse ever bought a pickup truck? I live in New York. I won't be buying a car here. Ever. During the last year, have you ever purchased domestic mass-market beer to stock your own fridge? No, no, no. It's taken me years to find a handful of beers I actually like. "Domestic mass-market" did not make the list. During the last ﬁve years, have you or your spouse gone ﬁshing? No, and stop asking about my spouse. I'm not married! By the way, I went fishing with my sister when I was a kid, and she lived in rural Pennsylvania. How many times in the last year have you eaten at one of the following restaurant chains? Applebee's, Wafﬂe House, Denny's, IHOP, Chili's, Outback Steakhouse, Ruby Tuesday, T.G.I. Friday's, Ponderosa Steakhouse. Probably once at an IHOP and once at a T.G.I.F. In secondary school, did you letter in anything? Track & Field. Swimming. Wrestling. Have you ever attended a meeting of a Kiwanis Club or Rotary Club, or a meeting at a union local? "Clubs" that begin with the letter K make me nervous. Have you ever participated in a parade not involving global warming, a war protest, or gay rights? I thought all parades were at least a little gay. I kid, I kid. I regularly attend the West Indian Day Parade in Brooklyn. I actually was a Boy Scout in the parade for the Inauguration of President George H. W. Bush. I had blocked that memory until taking this test. Now I'm scarred again. Since leaving school, have you ever worn a uniform? Have you ever ridden on a long-distance bus (e.g., Greyhound, Trailways) or hitchhiked for a trip of 50 miles or more? Chinatown. Bus. NYC to Boston and NYC to DC. Also, my mom and I hitched once. I just doubt it was for over 50 miles. Which of the following movies have you seen (at a theater or on a DVD)? "Iron Man 2," "Inception," "Despicable Me," "Tron Legacy," "True Grit," "Clash of the Titans," "Grown Ups," "Little Fockers," "The King's Speech," "Shutter Island." "Iron Man 2," "Inception," "Tron Legacy," "True Grit," "The King's Speech." During the 2009-10 television season, how many of the following series did you watch regularly? "American Idol," "Undercover Boss," "The Big Bang Theory," "Grey's Anatomy," "Lost," "House," "Desperate Housewives," "Two and a Half Men," "The Ofﬁce," "Survivor." "Lost," and it consumed me. Part of me will be stuck forever on the Island. Have you ever watched an Oprah, Dr. Phil, or Judge Judy show all the way through? Yes to Oprah and Dr. Phil. What does the word Branson mean to you? As in Charles or Richard? Charles has the big mustache. Richard has the big ego. Oh wait, no I think that's Charles BRONson. You talking about Branson, Mo.? If not, is this some secret white knowledge you're holding back!? Now I have to know!! According to Charles Murray's answer key, I scored 29 points. So what kind of white person does this make me? I just want to point out what a brilliant counter-marketing plan it is for Murray to release a book about white people during Black History Month. Sir, you can't even let us have these 29 days!? Clearly it's working. He placed higher than my own book, "How to Be Black," on the New York Times list. In an America and world increasingly populated, influenced and powered by non-whites, focusing on white class identity may be a decreasingly relevant endeavor, but I'm now very curious to see what Murray's book has to offer. Maybe I can get more tips for my chapter "How to Be the Black Friend" or, if nothing else, some good insights for the revolution.