Ballmer and Dell Talk Windows 8 and Surface Tablet in Joint Interview There are not many people in the personal computer industry who have been in business together as long as Steve Ballmer and Michael Dell, the chief executives of Microsoft and Dell. But the PC industry has been losing some of its luster lately with the explosion of interest in mobile devices like smartphones and tablets. Microsoft and its partners are betting that Windows 8, an operating system designed to take better advantage of touch-screen devices, will help change that. Mr. Ballmer and Mr. Dell sat for a rare joint interview in New York on Wednesday to discuss Windows 8, how Microsoft's new Surface tablet will compete with products from Microsoft's partners, and the challenge of attracting developers to write apps for Windows 8. Edited excerpts of the interview follow: NYT: Mr. Ballmer, recently you started to describe the company as a devices and services company, yet most of your business is still in selling software that runs on PCs. Why the change in language? Mr. Ballmer: If we're not thinking through what the future of devices looks like in conjunction with Dell, the semiconductor industry, we're not doing our job. There was sort of an amazing bootstrap that happened 30-odd years ago with IBM playing a role, Intel playing a role, these guys playing a role (motions to Mr. Dell). We kind of all got together magically as an ecosystem. In terms of driving that, and not leaving room for someone to drive hardware-software innovation, it's going to require more complete thinking, not just by us, but by our partners. I'm telling our guys, we've got to think these things through and say, 'We don't succeed until a Windows 8 PC ships.' Our product really is the Inspiron. It's Michael's product. That's how customers experience us. NYT: The product is the Inspiron, but it's also Surface, which is a device you're making. Can you talk about that decision and the conversations you had with your hardware partners about it? Mr. Ballmer: This year there will be about 400 million personal computers sold. That's a big number compared to any other device on the planet. We have to make sure there's no seam of hardware-software innovation that's going unexploited. Surface is one of a series of great innovations that came out of this work. We're pushing ourselves on all dimensions. We were relatively quiet about that. Who was the first person I showed Surface to that doesn't work at Microsoft? It was Michael. Mr. Dell: You met me in Chicago on my way to Lagos. NYT: What was your reaction to learning they were going to do this device? Mr. Dell: We had a good discussion about what Microsoft's goals are. As I see it, the prime goal is to ensure the success of Windows 8. We've never sold all the PCs in the world. As I've understood Steve's plans here, if Surface helps Windows 8 succeed, that's going to be good for Windows, good for Dell and good for our customers. We're just fine with all that. NYT: How do you think your hardware partners generally feel about Surface? Mr. Ballmer: Of course I would expect, and one of the reasons it was important for me to see Michael myself, the initial reaction is: 'What the heck? Michael's reaction was very thoughtful. Mr. Dell: When you think about those 400 million PCs. We want that to be 450 million. There's no company on the planet that can build all those. NYT: Do you think in a couple years' time, if touch is in a good percentage of these products, will we still talk about them as PCs? Mr. Ballmer: I will. It's whatever you want. PCs started out as things that looked like desktops. There was a big innovation along the way called the laptop. The all-in-one was yet another form factor. Now we have a no-compromise device that is a PC that's a tablet. You don't have to pick PC or tablet. You don't have to buy two devices. NYT: Do you think consumers want to get work done, the way enterprises do, on these tablet devices? Mr. Ballmer: I think consumers run the gamut. There are certainly times you want to hand your child a tablet and say: 'This is the baby sitter while we're at dinner. Go play games. Sometimes maybe the adult wants to pick it back up, watch a movie, read. It may be possible occasionally you want to check in at work. Check in on some numbers. I don't think dividing the world cleanly is that helpful. Mr. Dell: Certainly, consumer adoption of Windows 8 will be immediate. We will see huge numbers of shipments of Windows 8 just because of the numbers of PCs sold. Then you get to small business. After not that long, you have a very large installed base of hundreds of millions of machines. NYT: Do you think that initial wave of adoption will be people buying touch devices or will they be buying something with a keyboard and mouse? Mr. Dell: The early demand is heavily touch. NYT: Some reviewers have noted the transition from the traditional desktop interface in Windows 8 to the modern interface can be a little jarring. Do you think that's going to be an issue? Mr. Ballmer: Beauty will be in the eye of the user. I'm not confused about this. After about a week, I think you don't even notice it. Mr. Dell: I think what you're going to see with Windows 8 and touch, it's going to be like pulse and touch tone. There's the old one and the new one, and you're going to want the new one. NYT: Michael, you've been through a lot of Windows transitions with Microsoft. How does this feel in comparison? Mr. Dell: It's definitely different than others because it's bigger and more significant. It's not an incremental change. NYT: How serious do you think the challenge is going to be of getting developers to create applications for this new modern user interface? Mr. Ballmer: If anybody thinks there's value at all in doing an app for any screen over 5 inches, you can't ignore the fact that we've got the biggest opportunity on the planet. Mr. Dell: Just think about the numbers. When you have hundreds of millions of Windows 8 PCs, it's going to be pretty hard not to have an app if you really want to be in the app business.