Hagelian Dialectic - NYTimes.com David: Gail, between 2004 and 2006 I did some preliminary work on an idea I had for a book. It was a group biography of senators who had offices on the second floor of the Russell Senate Office Building, along with selected friends. The senators were John McCain, Chuck Hagel, Joe Biden, Lindsey Graham, plus Hillary Clinton and Joe Lieberman. Gail: Wow, and look at what they've each turned into. Biden's being hailed as the most influential vice president in history; Hagel's on the way to Defense; Hillary's the über-heroine of the Democratic party; McCain has been transformed into a walking snit; and Lindsey Graham is a 24/7 TV talking head reflecting the crankier aspects of the Republican Senate. While Joe Lieberman is fading off into -something. I'd love to get them all in a room with a bottle of Scotch. David: I probably should have written that book because they've all gone on to do pretty interesting things. My problem was that I could never get a narrative thread. The Senate is not a place that lends itself to high drama, unless your name is Lyndon Johnson. Gail: I think you were the one who told me that it's hard to be a passionate moderate. David: During that time I spent a fair bit of time with Chuck Hagel. This was the depths of the Iraq War. I found Hagel totally admirable, even though I often disagreed with him. Gail: I'm so glad you still have a good opinion of him. He seems to me like a really smart choice for Defense. David: Some people were critics of the war for negative political reasons. Hagel was a positive critic. Generally speaking, he was offering advice on how to make things better. Plus, he showed some courage. There is nothing harder than being unpopular in your own workplace. By the end of this period, Hagel had taken some positions that put him out of step with the Bush administration. Liberal groups were using his picture and his quotations to bash Republicans in newspaper ads. I went to see him one morning when full page ads appeared in The Times and The Post. He was pained, because he knew his colleagues were hating him at that moment, but he really was putting the interests of the troops first, at least as he saw them. Gail: So he didn't take the same pleasure in poking his own party that John McCain did, back when McCain was that other McCain. David: The key thing I remember from that period is how completely he saw the world from a realist perspective. Here he was a guy from Nebraska and yet his worldview mirrored what I think of as the Council on Foreign Relations worldview of the 1970s - disdain for a foreign policy built explicitly around values, and esteem for a foreign policy built around a narrow conception of interests. Did Hagel pick up that worldview in Nebraska? In Vietnam? Or through his friendship with Colin Powell and others in the foreign policy establishment? People have fevered theories about the neocon conspiracy, but in those days there was a realist network spread throughout the government. Hagel served as a mouthpiece for their views. Gail: Hagel seems like the right man for the right time. I hope our military of the future is strong and well suited to protecting the country's interests overseas. But it's definitely not going to be in any shape to carry out somebody's bright idea about how to remake the world with a well-placed invasion or two. David: I'll say this about President Obama: He doesn't rely on the kindness of strangers. He generally promotes from within his organization and when he goes outside, he picks people he knows. Pretty much every name mentioned recently has a history with the man, including Jack Lew going to Treasury and Hagel and John Kerry. Gail: I thought that theory was overplayed during the first term. The president knew Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden, but it wasn't as if they'd exactly been buddies. And a number of the other cabinet members were close to strangers. For this second term though, I'd agree that so far he doesn't seem to be beating the bushes in search of new faces. David: Personally, I think the downsides of this approach are beginning to build up. Serving in government doesn't leave you much time for new ideas. There's no real time for reading and reflecting. You are spending down your human capital. Plus, Obama has spent so little time in national politics that his circle of friends is reasonably small. I wish he picked a few more people outside his existing orbit. Gail: Well, the Republicans have definitely done a good job of creating a bunker mentality in some parts of the administration. I can't blame them. It's pretty crazy out there. David: What's your overall sense of where things stand at the dawn of this new term? To me everything feels weird. It doesn't feel like the start of something. It feels like something is winding down, like we're in the seventh year of his administration, not the start of the fifth. Gail: We've got three more fiscal cliffs before spring really arrives. That does tend to suck some of the optimism from the room. I don't want to have an argument right now about who screwed up the latest crisis, although you can probably guess my feelings. But if it had turned out better, I think the tone would be more uplifting. David: I don't think much is going to get done in Congress over the next four years. I somehow think we'll avoid a major confrontation with Iran. I get the sense politics will be kind of boring for a little while. That'd be fine with me. Gail: I would be really happy to see the international scene get more boring. That, in fact, would be a good new year's wish. But on the domestic front, David, I don't think you'll get your wish. We're going to do immigration. There will be a huge fight about guns, which will leave the country changed, even if it doesn't do much to the laws. All the while we'll be cliff-hopping. Save dull for the second two years. This first stretch could be high drama.