Manchester City v Manchester United: live On the other hand, here's Andres Jiminez: "At least Rooney scored. Some consolation for them. 18.00 Only five shots on target for those four City goals. Overall chances, 18 to City and 14 to United. So the numbers don't really tell the story there. Ali Muhammad Kanji writes: "Yes, this is a career defining game for David Moyes because... just look at the score, which makes us remind of the day when Manchester City defeated Manchester United 6-1 in a Manchester derby, I think today David Moyes is recalling that moment which was of course not a great one for Manchester United. And also, since David Moyes has started as a manager for Manchester United, they have been going down from the 1st position to the 5th and then now to the 8th and maybe after this match, it may also drop them below the 10th position (most probably), so I am not satisfied with David Moyes or Manchester United. Adrian Maylett: "Can not understand moyes's thinking behind his team selection today. Very poor think he will be out by xmas especially after the transfer fiasco. David Roberts: "Is this a career-defining defeat for Moyes? - Not yet I hope, but a few more lacklustre displays like this will have the crowd on his back. Quite how the team that romped home to the title a few months ago can be so debilitated by a change of manager is beyond me. The players are failing him and they are paid a hell of a lot of money to try harder, regardless of who's in charge. Fellaini is an epic mistake but he does need to dump Valencia as soon as possible. What we don't want to become is a red Everton. If he buys Baines then that will be all we need to know on that front and we'll need to get used to dull football until he is replaced. If we are going to write off this season already then why not promote some of the younger players? It worked before. I can't see Moyes fairing any better than Wilf McGuiness did after Sir Matt Busby...not his fault but if the players roll over like they are then what can he do? How can anyone follow the past 26 years? 17.55 Moyes shakes hands with Pellegrini et al. Wonder what he's thinking now? United actually looked alright once they switched to three in midfield and he'd hooked the awful Young. By then, though, the game was lost. He will at least draw some comfort from the fact that his players tried to restore some pride in the last 30 minutes. His post-match quotes will be interesting. Alvin Kwan: "DM should take responsibility for this outrageous thrashing by Man City ! First, he didn't do at all well in the transfer market and second, he just hasn't got the experience of winning major trophies ! I am shocked MU's management picked someone with no credentials as DM in the first instance. Is MU not able to afford a more experienced manager ? We aren't a mid table team hence there isn't any excuse to take risk with an inexperienced manager like Moyes. I don't see us buying good players as they won't join MU which appears to be going downhill. Michael Mcguire: "We have now truly entered the era of LASA - Life After Sir Alex." But Mike Spencer says: "Take the Hits Moylesie - Fergie did. He'll be fine. Fair point, well made. And Linda Glasspole is on the same page: "To Ramsay on 83 minutes. We won the league with this lot.........with 11 clear points! Heather Pilkington says: "Sir Alex lost 6 - 0 against City and still went on to win the league the following season. It's one game, find something else to talk about. Erm, on our blog of the Manchester United match, Heather? Play fair. 92 mins: The ball with City though now, can't see United getting it back and managing to add a further veneer of respectability to this. Valencia, I think it was, robbed of the ball by Dzeko and he shoots not far wide. Moyes's nightmare is over. 90 mins: Valencia, wretched in the first half, shows some stones by pressing hard down the right, his head hasn't gone down. Can't get his cross in under serious pressure. We're having three minutes of extra time, we'll get to your many emails then. Thanks for writing, by the way. 89 mins: Good run from Rooney but Milner cuts out his ball to Valencia. 88 mins: Kompany has to be on his mettle to keep out a good cross from Fellaini. 87 mins: United not going down without a fight, Moyes will be pleased that his men have not capitulated utterly in the last half an hour. They are pressing for a second, and are camped in the City final third. A really brilliant freekick from Wayne Rooney, round and over the wall, right in the top corner. Wonderful strike. Rooney now has more goals in Manc derbies than any other player. Some minor consolation for United and Rooney, I guess. Man City 4 Man Utd 1 (Rooney 87) 84 mins: While Rooney waits to take the direct freekick, Auguero comes off and Javi Garcia comes on. 83 mins: Nastasic brings down Rooney and is lucky not to get a second booking. Rooney still full of running, cannot fault his effort today. Ramsay Elder: "Been a man u fan for fifty years through the bad and the good have never seen a united side as bad and shapeless as this lot today. transfer window was a nightmare and i dont think we have the right guy. we will be lucky to finish top half with this shower couldnt win the conference!!!" Dailon Huskey: "How many EPL trophies has Moyes won? Exactly so why would you hire him to coach what is supposed to be the world's best team and the most valued sports franchise in the world. If Pepe left Munich tomorrow would they hire the coach of Union Berlin to replace him, doubt it. In fairness, how many men HAVE won an 'EPL' trophy, Dailon? Fergie, Kenny, Arsene, Mourinho, Ancelotti, Mancini. Not a lot to choose from. 81 mins: No consolation for United yet. They've just hit the bar, and Wayne Rooney drills in a good follow-up shot that is scrambled away. Kiran Kulkarni: "Instead of spending the whole summer chasing likes of Fabregas, tiago and others United could have gone for Ericsson or even willian who were readily available. There is no creativity in midfield. United will find it hard to even quality for Europe. I love football fans. 79 mins: Run and shot from City's, I think, Dzeko and David De Gea very nearly puts the cherry on the top by spilling the simple save... he just manages to dive on it before it dribbles over the line. 78 mins: Just another 12 minutes and then Kompany will have to let Wayne Rooney out of his pocket. England's supposedly world class forward has been absolutely schooled today. 77 mins: Carrick robbed of the ball by Aguero, and City break. The move doesn't come to a lot, but City are soon pressing forward again after Zabaleta out-fights Fellaini. Second best in any department you care to name. Zubra Okacim: "SAF was, I believe, flying out to the USA yesterday. I'm guessing he's now on his way back earlier than planned. He's bringing Red Adair with him. Vivan Phelps: "This is absolutely hopeless. DM not a clue. His response is Cleverley? You got to be kidding. Moyes out!!! 74 mins: City can afford to do as they will now, and are going to bring on Dzeko. That little spell of competence from United has faded, City now firmly back in control. Negredo is the man to make way. Roger Jones: "Evergreen Giggs, not yet on the pitch, may be the Old Man, but he makes some of his younger teammates look ready for the care home. How Ferdinand has not yet entered a care home, I do not know. Tai Kaku: "Moyes should just send on Chicharito and Kagawa at this point. Might as well get them some exposure for potential buyers in the January transfer window when United inevitably blow that money on Leighton Baines. 72 mins: Since, erm, going four behind, United have actually been alright. But there's danger at the other end now, as Negredo goes close with a shot from distance. City colleagues were better placed. Navas comes off, he's had a good derby debut, and the reliable James Milner comes on to help close it out. 70 mins: Antonio Valencia - how hell he still on pitch - with a run. He's always getting muscled out of it, so he decides to take a dive on the edge of the box. Will Howard Webb do United a favour? Nope! He's booked Valencia. For protesting, not diving, I think. It really is not Man United's day. Dailon Huskey: "I think this is a loss that should have United fans wandering if the right decision was made never mind that the summer was bad (a number of stars have come out to say they rejected United) but now it should be obvious to fans that they will not be winning the league this year. The question really is how big of a leash does he have? Sometimes I have found when teams have an appointed successor ready to take the helm after a legend it never pans out and this will be the same. The devils are done, but they will rise again when they get a different coach. More from Mike Turney: "Sir Alex will be parachuted in by the end of the season - what will Rooney do if Moyes is sacked by January? Could be Spurs big chance this year. Marc Melander: "This is a splendid antidote to the bitter pill choked down at Anfield yesterday. The hysterical hordes of United trolls are kindly requested to return beneath their stones. 69 mins: Fellaini breaks and shoots hard and well from the edge of the box. Joe Hart tips it over. 67 mins: Weirdly, it's now all United! They've got City pinned right back, Welbeck shoots way over. Just looking at the fourth goal again. Ferdinand nowhere. I cannot think of a player with so much experience who sometimes manages to look so naive. "How do United get back into it?" asks Mike Turney. They need a meteor. 64 mins: Cross into the City box, Fellaini blown up for a foul on Zabaleta, I think. Harsh. United now have three in midfield, and are getting a bit of purchase on the situation. Welbeck's playing down the left. See that bolted horse running over the horizon? 63 mins: Some signs of life for United, they've managed to get in behind City a couple of times and they are starting to ask some questions. Rooney has a freekick, hits it straight into the wall. 60 mins: United trying to regain some pride, good run from Welbeck down the right, a cross and Nastasic nearly deflects into his own net. I forgot to mention in the excitement earlier, after the third, Moyes hooked the hopeless Young and brought on Cleverley. He was on the pitch just in time for the fourth. When it's not your day... 59 mins: Carragher said it at half time: it's men against boys. 58 mins: Toure continues to own United's midfield, surging down the right at will now and drilling a cross that De Gea has to palm behind. "Drastic measures needed," says Carl Stephens. Howard Webb must be wondering if he can somehow abandon the match. 56 mins: Out of the blue, United have the ball down the right, it's crossed to Rooney who is unmarked on the penalty spot. He swings at it and sends it miles over. That was a good chance. Dear me, what next for United? You have to have pity for Moyes: this feels like a career-defining performance. 53 mins: And it's so nearly five, Vidic with a last gasp interception in the six yard box. Excellent cross from Navas, Negredo just about to apply the coup de grace but Vidic nips in. Kompany made that goal. He charged forward sixty yards as City broke down the right, and his presence in the box unsettled Ferdinand and company as the ball came sailing over. And there's Nasri! Bang! Yet another volley, and United are getting an absolute kicking here. Man City 4 Man Utd 0 (Nasri 51) 50 mins: United have a freekick, City break. Kompany gallops forward. 47 mins: Fellaini, I should add, utterly impotent as that move unfolded around him. This is now a bona fide nightmare for Moyes. Whatever he said at half-time, the players have totally ignored it. Once again, City overload the United right back position, once again a cross comes in and once again the United centre halves are not sticking tightly enough to their men. Aguero again with a neat volley, but that was alarmingly easy. Man City 3 Man Utd 0 (Aguero 47) 46 mins: City on the attack as we star the second half. 17.02 The players are back out. Moyes has not made a substitution. Neville suggests that his beloved Sir would have risked losing five-nil by having a go, going for broke, changing it. I see "Moyes Out" is trending on the twitters. 16.59 You have to fancy Rooney to double down on that yellow card. Mike Turney: "United have no creative midfielders- Is Fellaini supporting the front two or a holding midfielder? He looks like he's confused. £27 million is poor value if he never gets in the box. United would be better off playing long ball and sticking Fellaini up front. That's Moyes default mode. This passing football lark may take more time to bed in. 16.57 Massive half-time team talk for Moyes. His team selection, tactics and motivational skills are under scrutiny because United have been hammered by City so far. Jonathan Grosskopf: "Should have got rid of Young, Anderson, Wellbeck and probably Cleverley. All of the above have has do many chances to show that they are any use and in the first 2 cases have been abysmal! Cleverley and Wellbeck are over-rated and as the proof is in the pudding: both produce nothing! As soon as Van Persie gets injured United look the pedestrian side of last year and will do well to finish in the Top 4 of the Premier League. 16.54 Jamie Carragher says that Yaya Toure "looks like a man among boys" in that midfield. Like a full international playing against the under 16s. Wow. That is a rinsing assessment of the United midfielders. HALF TIME: City were all over United for the first half an hour, the visitors were over-run as City overloaded them down the left flank especially. Toure was the big man as his midfield dominated United's, and Moyes's side were undone by a fine strike from Aguero. United didn't offer much going forward, either, the sloppy Young typifying an uninspired attacking display. Rooney, overworked, was booked. United managed to slow the game down a bit and get into it to some extent, but a goal from a corner on the stroke of half-time has given them a huge task. The ball comes across, Negredo gets up to win the header. The ball finds Yaya unattended - Rio Ferdinand the culprit, I think - and Yaya Toure bundles it over the line for what looks very likely to be the decisive goal. Man City 2 Man Utd 0 (Yaya 45+) 45+ mins: And that's a huge blow! 45 mins: The half comes to an end with City on top, albeit not the overloading dominance of the first half an hour. Zabaleta wins a corner down the right. 44 mins: United have a freekick down the right and a chance to nick an ill-deserved equaliser before HT. City clear with some authority. 43 mins: The ball has broken to Valencia after a random bounce, good space for him in the inside-right channel, Welbeck takes the marker away with a run... but Valencia shoots tamely well wide. 41 mins: Young has time to pick out a cross but instead just picks out Joe Hart. 39 mins: De Gea flaps at, and misses, the second corner but it's cleared nonetheless. 38 mins: United's attack peters out and Negredo tries a run and shot. City have a couple of corners. 37 mins: Rio finds Young down the left, back inside to the midfield men. United's approach play looks laboured, you can see where the ball is going to go before they play it. Not enough fluidity. 36 mins: A bit of a break in play as everyone gets their breath back at a freekick. Aguero loses the ball under pressure. 34 mins: United hanging on here and showing some good ring-craft by slowing the game down a bit, making it scrappy, hoping to cover up on the ropes and hope that the tide turns before City can land the knocout second goal blow. 32 mins: Toure, Shiva and Brahma combined, breaks up an attack and is soon sliding a ball through to his centre forward that is just - JUST - cut out. We are utterly dominant. Even against 12," says Andrew Holgate, who is a Manchester City fan and as such needs no second invitation to see the referee as being biased in favour of United. 30 mins: All City in this first half an hour, Toure leading the way, and United need to get this under control. They're enjoying a bit of the ball now, not in a dangerous area, but at least they're getting into the game. 29 mins: The inevitable booking arrives for Wayne Rooney. Fourth foul he has made, nothing serious in and off itself but persistent fouling is a fair cop I think for Wayner so far. 27 mins: Chris Smalling is getting double-teamed, if you'll pardon the expression, down that side. Kolarov and Nasri are giving him a roasting. If, erm, you'll pardon that expression as well. He needs Valencia to help him mop up. Look, I'll just leave it. You know what I am trying to say. Valencia: help him out. 24 mins: City work a training-ground move from that free, it pings around the area and Evra, in my opinion, passes it back to De Gea. Referee Webb says otherwise. 23 mins: Kolarov goes down in the United area, perhaps a bit too easily for the ref's liking. No pen, no dive. Fernandinho and Toure getting the better of Carrick and Fellaini at the moment. The last-named, streched and stretching, commits a foul on the edge of the United area. 22 mins: Rare moment for United to get excited about, they break through Welbeck and Rooney makes the run. Danny just held onto the ball for a moment too long, Wayne caught offside. 20 mins: United under pressure, Rooney starting to lose the rag. He's lost the headband now too as he grapples with Kompany. Rooney a good bet for a booking here. 19 mins: Valencia again not in the wide awake club as he lets City get to a second ball on the edge of the box. Nasri's sharp effort goes over. 18 mins: Good comeback from United as they go up the other end and get a corner thanks to Young. Ace goal. City build down the left with Nasri, Smalling has got his hands full with that little blighter. Valencia needs to come help out, but he's dozing. Valencia has not gone with the second runner and here's Kolarov down the left on the overlap, neat little pass from Nasri sets him free, a good cross comes in and Aguero nails a fantastic volley. The ball was behind Aguero and it took wonderful technique to slot that home. Man City 1 Man Utd 0 (Aguero 16) 14 mins: Another long spell of the ball for City, Toure surges forward and thunders a shot through a crowd of legs. Comes to little. Rooney trips Aguero and then kicks the ball at the City forward when he is on his knees. TBF to Wayne, I think he was just racing to get the bal land keep it in, rather than it being a nasty act. Ref shares this view. 12 mins: City have got United on the back foot here, camped in their final third. Or final 2/5ths to be honest. Poor cross from the left, Young has let his man Toure wander off. City win the ball back though, it's all Blues at the moment. 11 mins: But now Toure has got the better of Fellaini, he slips it to Negredo, nice pass onto Aguerro, laid up for Kolarov to have a blast as he surges into the box on the left. Deflected out for a corner that comes to not a lot. 10 mins: United snapping at the heels of their opponents, and City, although having a spell of the ball, have to be very patient. 9 mins: Signs are that Valencia might be enjoying one of his better days in the red and black. City with the ball at the moment though. 7 mins: Nice link-up between Fellaini, Rooney and Young as they open City up, but the last-named has been caught offside. Attractive move, though. 5 mins: Nastasic has clattered Smalling and goes in the book. Bit harsh. Toure shares my view. 4 mins: City have a corner, more or less cleared, eventually it comes to Navas who shoots over. United over-elaborating at the back. 3 mins: Some ball for Rooney in the centre of the park, they're backing off him and the game has opened up... he slides it to Welbeck who, luckily for City, slips over on the turf. 2 mins: And rather poor from United too, as Young (I think) kicks the ball out under no pressure. 1 mins: Sloppy early from City, Kompany dwelled too long on the ball and Welbeck nearly picked his pocket. 16.00 City kick off. 15.59 RVP hasn't missed a PL game (Arsenal and Man U) for over two and a half years... 15.56 Pleasant afternoon in Man-ches-tah. According to the Sky TV graphic, both sides will be lining up with 4-4-1-1 formations. I am looking forward to seeing Fellaini v Toure. I love Fellaini, my favourite Premier League player, I think. 15.52 The disembodied head of Ray Winstone is giving you the betting odds on your television. Wayne Rooney is 9/1 to be the first goalscorer. That seems quite a big price, doesn't it? I mean, erm "'ave a bang on that, gertcha, knees up muvvah brahn shut it you slaaaaag can I have my money now please?" 15.49 Kolarov is there for the taking, says Carra. His lack of pace is a big weakness. 15.47 Quinn says that Dzeko will be gutted but reckons that Negredo will offer more of a physical presence than they quicksilver Dzeko, so that's why Pellers has gone that route. 15.45 Here's Manuel P. Negredo in for Dzeko, more a question of rotation that some tactical masterplan, to hear him talk about it to Geoff Shreeves. "For fans it's the most important game of the year," he says. 15.42 With the return of Kompany and the absence of RVP, you'd have to fancy City, no? 15.38 Great news for City fans with Kompany back in the XI. They really are a different side without him, IMHO. 15.36 Nice anecdote from Patrice Evra who, he says, made his debut in the derby. I was sick before the match (with nerves) but I didn't tell The Boss in case he thought I didn't fancy playing for United. At half time we were 2-0 down and The Boss took me aside and said 'Pat. Sit down. Now you learn about English football'. 15.33 Obviously a big loss for United, but as Jamie Carragher points out, United have still got England's two best strikers in their side, which is.... something, I guess. Still, thankfully they do better for their club than they do for England, I guess. Big Niall Quinn bigly notes that Rooney might enjoy being the main man. 15.30 Robin has a groin strain, says Moyes. We've nursed it all week. Eww. Anyway, Moyes doesn't agree with the assertion that he was playing a bit of a game by releasing the news late, nor does he seem to share the TV interviewer's optimism that RVP will be fit for midweek. Next weekend, seems more likely. 15.26 The Chemical Brothers' 'The Test' plays atop a montage of Manchester fans going about the place doing Manchester things. In Manchester. No jokes here. 15.23 Arsenal, having beaten Stoke thanks to three set pieces (?!) are top of the League. Wenger out, etc. Stoke dominated possession. Double weird. 15.12 Wonder how United will line up, then? They won't play both Rooney and Welbeck up top, surely? 15.09 Teams in full, then. Manchester City: Hart, Zabaleta, Kompany, Nastasic, Kolarov, Nasri, Fernandinho, Toure, Navas, Aguero, Negredo Manchester United: De Gea; Smalling, Ferdinand, Vidic, Evra; Valencia, Fellaini, Carrick, Young; Rooney, Welbeck 15.06 Big team news just in. RVP not in the side due to injury. 14.58 I am loving this suggestion that they may have gotten his brother a gig at Bury in order to keep the run-machine-busting Jesus happy. 14.45 Actually, that Navas interview from Jason Burt has all sorts of little gems in it. Loving 14.40 Anyway, that's enough United for a bit. What of City? Here's Manchester City's Spanish midfielder Jesús Navas saying that he was so fast that he broke a running machine. Well, we've all broken a running machine in our time. Perhaps due to being a bit on the heavy side. That definitely didn't happen to me. It happened to... my friend. Yeah, that's it. A friend. Anyway, over to you, Senor Navas: It came to a sudden stop. I was only supposed to be doing 12 minutes worth, because in pre-season you take things steady. I took it to 15 minutes, which was the maximum, and it just stopped. There was no smoke but I had to grab onto the side to make sure I didn't fall. I dunno about this. So you were running on it, and it stopped, broken, because you were going too fast? You know that you set the speed that it goes? It's not trying to keep up with you? 14.35 And to complete this Roo-nd up, here is Robin Van Persie on his strike parter. He says that he and Wazza are dovetailing, not competing. We love to play together. I think we are both similar players in the way that we are both all-round, we both can drop and both can go in behind. We have a pass - which is what I love. I love to play with Wayne because, for me, he has it all. As long as we can combine that really well, as long as we work together and try to improve which we are doing, I think we can go from strength to strength. 14.25 Also on the subject of Rooney, former Manchester United chief executive David Gill has confirmed there was never a chance the Old Trafford outfit would have sold Wayne Rooney to Chelsea in the summer. "We are not in the business of strengthening our key competitors in England," Gill told BBC Radio Five Live's Sportsweek programme. You have to see our response when Gabriel Heinze wanted to join Liverpool (in 2007). We went to a Premier League arbitration panel to show that we didn't commit to him moving within England for a certain sum of money. We wanted to keep (Rooney) in any event and not sell him overseas. You don't win football matches with money in the bank.You want players on the pitch. Wayne Rooney has been, and will continue to be I am sure, a great player for Manchester United. 14.15 On the subject of Wayne Rooney, David Moyes submitted himself to a grilling from the Paxman-esque MUTV about the player, his partnership with RVP, and also his own relationship with Sir Alex Ferguson. Read more about that here When I came here I thought Wayne had gone a bit soft. 14.05 Let's get the views of the great and the good on the clubs and the game. First up, here is our chief football man Henry Winter on the new "lean and mean" Wayne Rooney. From the outside, there is much legitimate and extensive analysing of Rooney's situation, the chronicling of the summer saga of his desire to leave United, the spotlight on Sir Alex Ferguson's public declaration that the No 10 wanted to go and the failed Chelsea bids of July 17 and Aug 5. From the inside, from the fans" perspective, there is the sheer joy at Rooney's technique... Supporters have inevitably debated his future but such nirvana moments as that free-kick [against Crystal Palace last week] eclipse everything. It is what the game should be about. On-field action, not just off-field talk. 14.00 Good afternoon and welcome to our live blog coverage of Manchester City versus Manchester United The match itself kicks off at 16.00, but games like this one don't come around every day, so we thought we'd take a bit of a run-up at it and bring you some build-up. There is much to discuss early in this pivotal season for both teams.