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NEW YORK (CBSNewYork) — Over the weekend, CBSNewYork's editorial team published a guide to New York City's horse and carriage industry, with information for those looking to take a ride.
While the guide was intended to be just that — a guide to our readers in and around New York City — the piece generated an unanticipated level of reaction from folks debating the issue of animal cruelty.
Here at CBSNewYork.com, we've covered the controversy surrounding horse carriages closely.
After two horses died in Manhattan last fall, the president of the Coalition to Ban Horse-Drawn Carriages, Elizabeth Forel, was one of the animal-rights activists to speak out.
In the midst of the horse deaths, Mayor Bloomberg weighed in on the issue, disagreeing with those against the business of horse-drawn carriages. He expressed his belief that the industry is a staple of local tourism.
"The way we pay our municipal employees and the way we pay them is with taxpayers' money and the taxpayers depend on tourists coming here, and going out in carriages are just one of those things that they do," Bloomberg said.
"Most of [the horses] probably wouldn't be alive if they didn't have a job," Bloomberg said.
Ian McKeever, spokesperson for the Horse & Carriage Association, told CBSNewYork that he agrees with the mayor.
"All a horse wants is to have a job. If horses weren't doing this, they'd be dead. We're doing a credit to these horses by giving them a job and looking after them," he said.
In light of the outrage sparked by our guide, we reached out again to Forel.
"Every poll that has been taken since 2006 has shown that at least 75 percent of respondents want a ban of the industry," Forel told us.
"Why you decided to promote the carriage industry in Atlanta, Seattle, New York…is beyond me."
What's more, Carly Knudson, the Executive Director of New Yorkers for Clean Livable & Safe Streets (NYCLASS), started a petition in an effort to have the article removed from our site.
"The carriage horse industry forces its animals to work long hours in treacherous conditions. News organizations like CBS New York should be scrutinizing this industry instead of promoting it," Knudson said.
Meanwhile, McKeever told us that horses spend nine months of the year working and 3 months of the year on a farm – where they receive some of the best care in the country.
"Animal activists are entitled to their opinion, but they are unequivocally, 100 percent wrong," McKeever said.
He pointed out that the Horse and Carriage Association of New York has never received a cruelty ticket in the 30 years that he's been with them.
"We will invite anybody to come into our business and take a look at our horses and stables."
But what about the protestors that are often found in Central Park?
According to the carriage operator Robert Boyle, those are just the few squeaky wheels.
"Obviously if people didn't want us, we wouldn't be in business. The only reason we're here is because people take rides," Boyle said.
"You come out here at Christmastime and watch a thousand people lined up waiting to take a carriage ride – that should be the answer to your question."
We reached out to the City Council for a statement on the issue. The office was quick to point out recent legislation the city passed on the treatment of working horses, and passed along a statement from Council spokesperson Robin Levine.
"The legislation requires horse operators to provide their rental horses with at least five weeks of vacation a year, in a location with daily pasture access," Levine said.
Additionally, the laws restrict the ages at which horses may be licensed to work, increased the number of mandatory annual veterinary visits and requires carriages to carry blankets and have proper safety measures in place.
Where do you stand on the issue of horse-drawn carriages in New York City?
does no one who is for this practice, do they not think these animals feel pain or fear or discomfort? why does no one care/? i have never seen one with a spark in its eye, or nicker for a human…they are simply , there,,its inhuman and should be stopped all over, not just new york
Just end abuse to all animals. No more abuse!!!!!!
I agree Jaent all animal abuse should stop; However the carriage horses of NYC are far from abused.
There have never been any charges against the Carriages Horses of Abuse. Tha'ts what people do not seem to comprehend here. Unlike , in the case of a so called "animal activist" who was tried and CONVICTED of animal abuse, by a court of Law…and is still operating with animals (but that is ok I see). Oh the HYPOCRISY. People jump horses over huge hurdles, compete in fast carriage competitions, race horses, trailer hours to various competitions…that is all alright. Stop being haters. Get some education. Help the ones who NEED your help and attention. Those whom are homeless..roaming and starving that have no shelter or Veterinary care…help those families that are on the verge of giving away their be loved equine as they can not even feed their families..Stop barking up the wrong tree.
For Truth and accurate information about the NYC carriage horses go to http://www.youtube.com/user/StopLiesSeeTruth?ob=0&feature=results_main#p/a/u/0/bXPiZYl3a_o This site has more than 40 videos detailing the lives of the NYC carriage horses and owners/ drivers
With all your ridiculous comments, you obviously own a carriage business….! This needs to be outlawed as it is cruel and these horses will never have any type of a comfortable or normal life!
@ Amy I certainly do not. I do know enough about equine care and management to know what is abuse and what is not. While your emotional core or personal taste may lead you to believe that there should not be horses in NYC that does equal abuse. Save the word and the drama for those who truly are abused.
The poll lists 89.44% opposed to horse drawn carriages. Now abolish the institutionalized cruelty domination of these despirited galant creatures. R.I.P. Spotty, Bud, Juliet aka Rusty and all others before and others since. May history NOT repeat itself.
Like I said before save the drama for those who are truly abused. Maybe focus your efforts like perhaps cart horses that are actually abused http://chai-online.org/en/campaigns/horses/campaigns_horses_i.htm
And they are very invalid. You can answer as many times as you want. You need something better than that.
Not true. It only allowed me to vote once.
Voting is IP based.. a 2nd or IP swap would allow for more votes super easy to have fudged.
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed it is the only thing that ever has. — Margaret Mead
Coalition to Ban Horse Drawn Carriages http://www.banhdc.org
Horses Without Carriages International. http://www.horseswithoutcarriages.org
*****i recently posted this simple message posted above. Now it is indicated that my "COMMENT IS UNDER MODERATION.". Anyone want to guess why? Gee, hope I didn't offend anyone in the pro carriage industry. MODERATE ME, please!
I have no problem with horses in the park….. Howver, they have no business navigating the streets to and from their stabling. Build a well ventilated barn in the park, complete with some turnout paddocks for down time, and everyone will be happy.
When Bloomberg is booted out of office our job is to stop Quinn from taking over. Both are Heartless S.O.B's
The carriage horse owners in NYC care very much for their animals. They provide clean stalls large enough for the horses to lie down in, fresh water on demand via automatic waterers, plenty of quality feed and hay, misting systems for cooling in the summer months, and fire suppressant fire sprinker systems in the stable buildings.
No carriage horse driver or owner has ever been issued a citation or summons for "animal cruelty." The horses enjoy time off in the country. The minimum mandated by the law is five weeks a year– way more vacation than most human wage slaves receive.
But many carriage horse owners have more than one licensed horse so they can rotate them out as needed to give their horses "time off" in the country as they see fit.
There are several videos on the links beliw- especially the youtibe channel belonging to StopLiesSeeTruth that show retired and vacationing NYC carriage horses enjoying time off in the country.
For more info on NYC carriage horses, and to see some great horse videos,, go to–
At the end of the day, there are those that take care of their animals, and those that don't. I have spoken to drivers who care deeply, and the horses show it. On the other hand i've encountered drivers with dehydrated horses, and on more than one occasion have seen them trotting their horses down 7th ave., passengerless heading back to the stable in the late evening.
I am absolutely against the horses being driven anywhere outside of tbe park. The city needs to build comfortable accessible stabling in the park, with turnout. Period. Additionally, i feel that there should be a percentage of earnings put towards a pension for these horses, and that a retirement farm soley dedicated to caring for retirees be established somewhere upstate. As long as these concepts are not in the cards, I'm all about ending this amusement.
I just rtnd. from a business trip down to NYC and live up here in Manitoba, Canada. I was just HORRIFIED to have seen some of those magnificent horses in *gasp* major traffic behind vehicles spewing toxic fumes in their faces!!! What on earth is wrong with your Mayor….he seems to place $$$ GREED $$$ before the welfare of those magnificent animals! SHAME on him and anyone else that abuses these beautiful horses!! They are NOT cars…they do NOT deserve to be purposely placed in harms way~!!!!!. This very very shameful industry needs to be shut down and the horses sent to rescues. I will join forces and do whatever I can now, to help the horses out of this abuse!!!
Wow! Thank you for your honesty. I believe you witnessed with your own eyes, as i have, what others have seen and posted in trying to get this old equine lifestyle abolished. Your sincerity and efforts are greatly appreciated.
Yes, just compare the way the carriage horses look: depressed, with their heads hanging down, almost motionless, except for now and then moving a hoof, to horses who are at pasture, rolling around on the ground, running and playing with their companion horses. The latter look happy, and very contented. The carriage horses look like they're waiting to die.
EVOLVE, Mayor Bloomberg! Animal abuse is NOT an acceptable tourist attraction.
Try to Bloom, Br. Bloomberg, into a sensitive man who has reverence for all life ,.
Don';t die in your old age with slaughtered and maltreated noble horses on your conscience.
Tourist cities of Europe and elsewhere have shown more compassion and intelligence than New York and have banned this ugly attraction. The difference is they don't put money ahead of kindness and humanity! The issue here is money against inhumanity.
Which cities?
There are carriage rides available in almost every European city including London, Paris, Vienna, Rome and many more– let's see copies of the ordinances banning horse carriages if this is true.
Yes, Last year I was in Rome, Italy and toured other large cities. They have a long way to go with being better informed about the horrific carriage business. It wasn't a pretty sight! We can set a good example here in the U.S.
No. They just give into these idiots so they do not have any headaches.
Someone passed a comment about how we will appreciate horses when fuel becomes too expensive for our cars. I can't remember who it was just now. But I have this to say. So what does that mean? We are going back in time? This "fuel feud" so to speak is all about profit. Young men and civilians die in wars over fuel and every lie that you can think of. There is renewable energy and cars have been made to run on batteries or compressed air. They have not been allowed to develop because of the profit and war mongers. Wake Up People. All the deceit is exposed on the net for anyone to read now that we still can.
These working horses are not well taken care of, are not given adequate breaks…are worked to death. People should boycott taking this mode of transport, and perhaps get exercize themselves by taking a stroll through Central Park!
Have you got any actual FACTS to back up your claims? Actually the ASPCA is charged with monitoring their living and working conditions and have never een able to come up with an actual violation. When the ASPCA vet attempted to clarify her statement about Charlie to stress that there was no signs of abuse she was suspended without pay. It's to ad the ASPCA can't use its resources to actually help animals that truely are in need
In my imagination I see horses romping around freely in the country side. I have been told that if we imagine whilst feeling the emotion and in ultimate faith, we can manifest the image into our reality. It is a power we all posses but most of us know very little of it. Perhaps if more people did and with the right action, we could manifest a beautiful compassionate world together. Just sharing my thoughts with everybody, but inside my heart breaks at how we treat animals, all animals for that matter. It stuns me that people do not see the intelligence and feeling in each animal and view animals as they would an object. Even vegetation is alive and seeing a tree being torn down unnecessarily, or the indifferent attitude towards nature, let alone the destruction of it, is another massive heartache. I think we need to introduce compassion in schools and children taught these lessons side by side with academic education.
What incredible beauty God has given us. I pray that all humans come to realise the grandeur of everything including our own. As for horses, I am mesmerised by their awesome appearance and I have never doubted that they are majestic beings. Many humans are so deluded. Thank God for all the people who share my love and respect for them and all creatures. Oh, reading the article, apparently we are kind because we give horses jobs otherwise they would be dead!!!! I try very hard to remain calm about it even thought I am seething!!! So horses have to work for us or be dead. Wow, I don't think I have ever read such an arrogant thick skinned comment before and excuse me but I would like to give this writer a swift slap where it hurts the most!!! Metaphorically speaking of course. Love and respect for all creatures and the planet. Simple as that. If our societies where based on a foundation of compassion and the well being of everybody, there would be working horses, no poverty, no wars, no child labour and the list is endless.
Instead we have toil and trouble, trials and tribulations and the images of suffering everywhere. MAKE ANOTHER CHOICE. CHOOSE PEACE AND COMPASSION. CHOOSE LOVE AND RESPECT not arguments about how horses are are not subjected to cruelty when its quite obvious they are and even if they were not, they have no business in cities or to be used in anyway what so ever. Making money off animals is pathetic. People need to get a life and be constructive. People are abused by the system and they in turn abuse animals and the environment. That is not the answer. The answer is to create a compassionate world and if anyone is left who cannot see the deceit being played out all the way from a personal to a world scale, then it will take all the longer to change our world, lets do it at least for our children and their children.
Well Collipoe–I see abused and neglected horses staggering from empty feed trough to empty feed trough– those that can still stand — and that is something I see in my imagination, but something I see and read about almost daily on TV and the Internet.. These abusive neglectful situations happen because horses are expensive to feed and maintain and their owners cannot afford them any longer.
Horses without jobs are most likely to end up slowly starving to death either in a forgotten pasture somewhere, or after being "turned out" on vacant land or in state and federal parks because their owners can no longer affrd to feed them.
Domestic horses CANNOT "fend for themselfves" in "open fields" especially in the winter when there is NOTHING for them to eat.Why is this concept so difficult for you.
NEWSFLASH- There are very few if any places in the USA where grass grows and retains its nutrient value all year long. There are absolutely NO places like that in Canada and Alaska.There are some places in the tropics where grass is available all year long, but its nutrient value does change with the seasons.
I am not interested in your "pie in the sky" vision of the "peaceful kingdom" that is totally impossible to achieve. I am interested in working with my horses and taking care of my horses while we help each other earn money to feed outrselves and get the medical care and sense of security that comes from having a home.
I do not appreciate people who do not kinow what they are talking about regarding the proper care of working horses presuming to call me and my fellow carriage drivers– the world over "animal abusers" because we work with our horses.
Where is your PROOF that carriage driving or any other work horse activity is cruel, abusive or causes horss to be "unhappy" or depressed. Show me the scientifc studies to back up your claims or shut up.
Working with our animals and taking care of them and the earth is what all major religions recognize as "good stewardship" of the earth and our fellow creatures.
Dear Calliope
I so agree with you, as I have the same beliefs as you. There are many of us already and one day soon we will reach critical mass and then the world will change for the better. It must change, there is no other way. We stand together.
I also would like to reply that horses rarely run around in the pasture, and often, when they are full they will stand around in the sun, hanging their head, dozing, rarely flicking an ear, tail or moving a foot. That is the normal think for a horse to do. A horse can actually drown if they lay down for too long a period, due to the weight of their body pressing on the lungs. Their circulatory system does not work efficiently in the prone position. The will more often than not sleep standing up.
I own a horse, have owned several over more than 40 years. I absolutely love them. When you get a chance to watch the interaction of the driver and horse, you will probably see that "spark" in the horses eye. That spark is usually saved for "their" person, not for just anyone who approaches them. Horses also will be more inclined to trot back to their stable, and sometimes, it is more detrimental to the horse for the driver to fight with their desire to go back to stable and food than to allow them to do their trotting back to home.
One last note – if a horse is used to being active during their working age, when you retire them to pasture, you can expect that they will probably die within a year or two. This is not due to their "hard life" but rather do to the sheer boredom of not doing what they were used to. You have to keep them mentally stimulated in retirement, just as humans need to be active in retirement.
I am vehemently opposed to the horse-carriage trade because I have had an insider's view of stable conditions, condition of the horses (poor), physical and emotional state of the horses as they pull hundreds and hundreds of pounds around in all kinds of weather for 10 hours a day, 7 days a week. They enjoy none of the activities that make horse happy, like pasturing and playing with each other, The horses are miserable, and this is not conjecture. These facts have been gathered by years of research,.
Please Ms.MacMurray do tell about your research. You have personally visited the stables , spoken with their veterinarians and lay persons and of course I'm sure that you have a background in animal science or equine management to be able to back your research ?
lynnwood farms, christine doesn't need a background in animal science or equine management. open your eyes, view vids and nsprs, listen to animal groups, proof is all around you. you may treat your horses well but there are far too many abused out there.
@ June the question is why do the opposition not do the same. There are public videos of the stabling that is questioned , respected people in the veterinary community have been asked to review the horses and have been quoted saying the horses are in good physical conditions and that their care is above average.
The "fight" persay is never over animal welfare. If you think for a moment that the majority of the owners /drivers don't love horses its a strange job to have picked one that you spend the majority of your day with a horse not to mention time put into care are other.
The bottom line is that there are MANY in the animal rights industry that believe that the working animal is abused and its generalized. Other groups like NYClass run by a real estate monger have there own vested interest in the banning of NYC's carriage industry. Ask Steve how much money he stands to make first by converting the stables to storage and parking garages and second by "rental" of his proposed electric cars.
VP of the Carriage Horse association took the time to personally record the stables their amenities some of the horses on vacation . How its that lost on the detractors .. you cant say live in foul conditions when where they live is video'd and public proving other wise. http://www.youtube.com/user/StopLiesSeeTruth?ob=0&feature=results_main#p/a/u/0/bXPiZYl3a_o
Thanks for the video. It was really informative. Love the misters and the automatic waterers! Nice roomy stalls with plenty of room for the horses to lay down. I don't see foul conditions, tiny stalls, or anything else that the anti carriage people complain about.
@Deb You apparently have not seen the stables from the outside. You could easily do a Google search and get the addresses of the stables, then go and see for yourself. Even from the outside, you could see that they are multi-floor buildings. The horses are walked up ramps and housed on the upper floors. With air-shafts over the ramps, there would be a "bellows" effect if a fire ever broke out in one of these buildings. It would be all that the stable workers could do to get themselves out safely, let alone trying to walk terrified, bolting horses down the ramps in a fast moving fire. Do you really think that these are good conditions that no one should be complaining about?
@Tess, since I watched many videos from both the pro and anti side you would be apparently wrong that I haven't seen the stables from the outside. And the stables in the video linked above, in case you haven't actually viewed it, has a sprinkler system. Something that many one floor stables lack. And yes, I think, they are good conditions.
Totally staged video. Worthless.
@ Mariah K there in lies the whole point. There could be a thousand videos and sworn testimony from half the equestrian community and people like you would still irrationally believe in the hysteria backed without fact. Of course you could not believe what you were seeing then you'd have to admit you were wrong and what a travesty that would be.
Can you please elaborate on what you believe was staged ?
What part/parts are staged? And how do you "stage" stall size? And automatic waterers, misters and a sprinkler system?
And where has this research been publish, and to what kind of professional peer review has this research been subjected. Names of published peer review articles please, citations please? Waiting . . .
New york is a wonderful vibrant city but seeing horse drawn carriages is so out -dated and abusive to those wonderful majestic creatures – come on NYkers get behind this ban – step up and be counted
Horses do not belong on the streets of New York. I worked in law enforcement there for many years. It is not safe for the animal or for anyone else.
What do the horses have to do with personal safety? You worked for the NYPD for 20 years and did nothing about this. Shameful.
Horses do NOT belong in the city.
This is cruel and inhumane for the horse. We must fight for the beautiful horse to be in the fields and running free. Not on the streets, being mistreated and for what, Human Greed. God Bless and may this end soon for the amazing horse.
And since there is no grass in the fields right now because it is winter, how will the beautiful horses running free be kept from slowly starving and then staggering around in those fields?
Carriage horses are valued animals whose needs for shelter, food and care are more than met by their owners and drivers.Horses with jobs are the LAST to be abandoned to fields and byways to fend for themselves. Domestic horses cannot "fend for themselves" in fields– they will starve — especially in the winter.
People are not going to not come to NYC just because you don't have carriage rides?? They come to NYC to see the many sites, the restaurants and the many other things that NYC has to offer without harming these horses.
So please do not believe what this elected official has to say, he will say anything if it means it will benefit him!
Do the right thing! Say no to abuse!
"If they didn't have a job, they wouldn't be alive" Of course they would, people ride horses as a sport, so horse drawn carriages in New York is not a necessarity at all. He is right though, they wouldn't live, no they wouldn't live in the city most of their lives nor would any of the people owning the horses for driving, have them, because they wouldn't need them, they would be with someone else who could take better care of them and build a bond with the horse. It would be even better if the horse could just run free where it used to, but because of humans, there aren't enough room for them anymore.
You are aware that there is no such thing as a "wild" horse in the United States. The various "wild" horse populations are feral horses not wild ones.
North Americas indigenous population died out around 12,000 years ago and North America was a continent without horses until they were reintroduced by the Spanish around the late 1400's. Some of their horses escaped and formed feral bands.
So for all the warm fuzzy horses should be free ..there would not even be that Iconic American image if not for horses brought here to work by another culture.
No wild horses in the US? I guess the 1971 Congressional Act protecting "Wild Horses and Burros" is just a myth. You Sir, are part of the problem with the horse industry. You are the one with blinders on, you Laura, Carraige Horse Lover and SLH.
Ask any Biologist the term wild is a misnomer they are feral horses not wild. North Americas wild horse population again died out 12 thousand years ago.
The horses wild here today are relatives to those escaped from the Spanish.
Since I know it would be to much for you to read scientific publications how about a simple Wiki page ?
Debbie all the bickering aside all thats been asked of those opposed has been to carry the burden of proof that the horses are abused. Cite your diversified backgrounds in animal science or medicine or equine management or even just say "hey i've had horses for this long". Prove that the things you say are indeed FACTS not opinions with publishable references . the supporting side has now where is your proof ?
I don't need to provide you or anyone else with proof of anything other than the topic of discussion. You're good at spinning the topic to suit your beliefs, but you and your friends aren't fooling me. All the evidence I need is walking the streets of NYC! Tell Congress, the BLM, and the DOI there are no wild horses. As for the carriage horse, YOU show all of us on this page your proof of humane care & treatment. Doubt any exists!
Debbie I don't need to tell them anything did you read the article they already know. They were not challenging the reality you were.
As to providing proof there have been links over and over again for you to read providing testimonies from veterinarians , industry professionals , lack of citations . You simply refuse to read or be open to anything other then your own. The industry is over seen by the ASPCA, the DOH, The department of consumer affairs , and the Department of Parks. All of these over see an inspect the horses on a regular basis .. I'm sure that in all those organizations that they are not so devoid of ethics and empathy that IF there truly was abuse they would be citing it and handing out infractions.
Wrong dude! I have read many articles, news reports and yes I comprehend. Reading and viewing videos is not the issue. As I said, what goes on everyday on the streets of NY with regard to the carriage horses, speaks for itself. If you think what is asked of these animals is not abuse then you need to join Sue Wallis of WY and open a shiny new horse slaughter house. For 2 days you have called people names, insulted them for their empathy for what NY is forcing these animals to do. Ever read the White Papers? BLM, ETHICS, HYPOCRICY.
No different in your city; corruption exists everywhere. You really need to do your homework if you think our government agencies charged with policing the livestock/animal laws are doing their job. Give you a free one: Presidio, Texas. Done with you, it's people like you that keep us fighting for animal rights.
Its laughable that instead of just providing proof that the horses are abused you go on mini rants about every thing under the sun from bullies to Sue Wallis. Why not just provide the proof ?
By the way I might have insulted your logical process but never you as a human being. Again if that hits to close to home then maybe you need to regroup and consider why.
I honestly believe you are so spun up thinking that everything and everyone is out to get you to stop you from your "cause" that you are blind to the simple facts. A working animal does not equate abuse.
By the way I personally if you must know am tremendous anti – slaughter supporter.
LynnWood Farms…you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink
And the Supreme Court declared the tomato to be a vegetable.
You are aware that there is no such thing as a "wild" horse in the United States. The various "wild" horse populations are feral horses not wild ones.
North Americas indigenous population died out around 12,000 years ago and North America was a continent without horses until they were reintroduced by the Spanish around the late 1400's. Some of their horses escaped and formed feral bands.
So while majestic in all its symbolism our wild horses are actually the product of working horses.
I have seen pictures of the conditions the carriage horses live in-it's not good!
I am coming to New York later this year. I WILL NOT be taking a ride in a horse drawn carriage. In fact I may well join the protesters for a couple of hours.
I was in New York City tourist last year I saw the poor horses on the streets. Please help the Pferden.Das is animal cruelty. I was very sad when I saw the horses in the streets. I Love New York. The people in New York are very nice. But the horses suffer. Please help. !!!!!!!
Carriage horse lover. I did not say Horse-drawn vehicles pollute the air. Hmmm…Chalk it up to miscommunication or misunderstanding. And acturally the major of cause of global greenhouse gas emissions is caused by factory farming. In total, animal farming accounts for 18% of global greenhouse gas emissions , surpassing the entire global transportation sector, which accounts for 13.5% of total emissions. Ok I'm done now.
A few squeaky wheels??? all 85% of us?? Your days of abuse are numbered.
CBS, why am I not surprised? Your follow-up is more shilling for industry. But I'm sure Ian McKeever is happy that you printed up his absurd comment about 3 months' vacation. And the best part is–are we expected to believe that McKeever used the word "unequivocally" in a sentence? Anyway, what horses need is regular turnout and adequate stall size; the NYC stalls are less than HALF the sizes recommended by the NY State Horse Health Assurance Program, a voluntary program to encourage best practices in horse health and wellness. That's right, less then half the sizes recommended by equine experts.
Too bad you run stories with inflammatory, pro-industry rhetoric and puns and cliches but you won't look up legal fares, laws, veterinary standards, etc.
And terrible that you have misappropriated an inane quote to Elizabeth Forel, who has tried unsuccessfully to post her ACTUAL comments. She also provided the reporter with substantial and detailed information; it was ignored.
Yeah! Tell it like it is! Good information, walknyc!
Horse Drawn Carriages should be banned!!! It is animal cruelty. Bloomberg should just shut the hell up. All he cares about is making the city money. What about the poor animals? They are often abused & mistreated. They are put under a huge amount of stress working in very noisy, crowded, dangerous streets. They are kept in crowded, tiny stables & left standing the whole night through. They never get to sit, or lay down. I just learned recently that Horses do in fact sit, and lay. They need to rest, just like us. They are also breathing in that disgusting exhaust all day. They look miserable. My heart breaks just thinking about their quality of life. There are several petitions going on right now to ban this ridiculous tradition. change.org: http://www.change.org/petitions/ban-horse-drawn-carriages-in-new-york-city-new-bill-needs-support & another one on: http://www.nyclass.org. Please help by signing these petitions, so we can help put a stop to this abuse & let these beautiful Horses have the lives they deserve. Thank you
No, horses do not sit. Sorry. I have owned horses for 49 years and no, they do not sit. They do lie down and unlike cows and goats rise front end first so momentarily they are in a sitting position but that is only a part of the motion of rising.
Horses do not belong on city streets pulling carriages in traffic and in all kinds of weather. There is nothing sadder than an old horse, worn out by previous work and owners, made to plod along through the hours and the days. This should not be a part of New York City or any other place in this country.
Stop with the Black Beauty nonsense – these are well-cared for, not worn-out, horses. They are better regulated and under more scrutiny than horses in the world!
MM- The NYC carriage horses are not old worn out horses. There are age limits imposed by law regarding what horses are elegible to be licensed as carriage horses in NYC. FYI- With the advances in vet. medicine, horses are living much longer than they did in the past and remain healthy and sound for much longer than in the past– jsut like people.
NYC carriage horses don't plod for hours– they work 9-hours in 24 and they spend much of that time resting while they and their drivers wait for passengers.
In the past, a 15 year old horse was considered past his prime, now some of the top competitors in showing, jumping and dressage are in their teens. Many, many horses are living into thir late 20s or 30s– still sound.
Theoldest living horse on record is 51 years old, still sound and living in England. He is an Irish Draught or an Irish Draught cross.He is a draft horse like many of the NYC carriage horses. You can google him if you want.
At 51 he is retired, but his former owner reportedly rode and drove him well into his 20s without any problems. She stopped when he began to have issues because of arthritis– in his 20s.
Well said MARCIA, Thank God for people who can see past their nose and have an heart of compassion. I really thank God for all the angels that make a difference.
Dear Ian McKeever, I would like to arrange a tour of the horse storage facilities. I hope this can be arranged.
I would like a tour too.
They are stables, not "horse storage facilities."
Or, maybe not.
David–I can't speak for Mr. McKeever, but as far as I know there are not any "horse storage failities" in NYC. There ARE horse stables that were built originally as stables for horses in NYC back when horses furhished all of the horsepower in the city. They continue to be used as stables for the carriage horse today.
Your referring to the horse stables as "storage facilities" shows either your ignorance or your desire to insult carriage horse owners. Storage facilities are for non-living things like automobiles. Horses live in stables and are attended by stablemen,or women who see to their comfort and safety 24/7.
I think that most people think of a horse stable as a ground level building with stalls that have horses that can be walked right from their stalls to an outside paddock area. The stables used for carriage horses are multi-story buildings where the horses are walked up a ramp inside the building, to stalls on the upper floors. I guess if you want to refer to these buildings as horse stables then you can, this being a free country.
Tess you are right however their multi storied does not make them less of a stable. There were/are plenty of stables in other cities that are similar in fashion. Whether one floor or multi the importance is in the care provided.
In that case I'm going home to my three story people storage facility.
Or is that a house?
I'd be surprised if this happened.
Me too. When can I come by?
♥♥♥♥ Exactly right. We'd love to see the storage facilities.
My bet is you will never get a response for your request. Good luck. Pro carriage people like it when we just "go away"…… Only this time we aren't going any place!
CBS's new article is not an improvement – and it is simply a tip of the hat to the carriage trade. The article continues to favor the drivers – allowing them to make outrageous claims without being challenged and reserving the emotional hyperbole to me.
For example, I never said "Horses don't belong in the city," "It's very upsetting."
I was asked by CBS to provide some information, which I did. They chose to put words in my mouth. This is an excerpt of what I sent them:
"Horses do not belong in a crowded congested city like New York. These slow moving flimsy vehicles are unsafe and an accident waiting to happen, mixing with cars, taxis, buses, emergency vehicles, bicycles and pedestrians. Horses are prey animals who can spook at the slightest provocation and at 1500- 2000 pounds, they become unwitting weapons and can kill or injure themselves or people. People around the world have died in carriage horse spooking accidents.
The horses work between the shafts of their carriage for 9 hours straight, 7 days a week – coming back after a long day's work to a small stall in a multi storied stable accessed by a steep ramp (where a staircase was removed); often sweaty and dirty and not washed until the next morning so they look good to the ASPCA officers if they should happen to be on the job.
Legally, their stalls can be as small as 60 square feet – less than 1/2 of what it should be. Experts recommend a 144 sq. ft stall for standardbreds and an196 sq ft stall for the larger draft breeds. Horses need to be able to lay down with their legs extended to have a deep sleep. They are not able to do it in a small stall. The term "box stall" refers to configuration – not size.
As herd animals, horses need to have access to pasture – grass where they can graze and socialize with other horses, mutually grooming each other, a great stress reducer. But they do not have it in NYC. The 5 week vacations that were written into the law in 2010 cannot compare with the 47 weeks a year when they have nothing. Besides, the former ASPCA vet stated in a NY Post article that the horses looked worse when they come back after this furlough. We do not know why and it was never investigated. Does this mean that the horses are made to work – tied to a plough when they are on "vacation?
A carriage ride is legislated at $50 for the first 20 minutes and $20 for each consecutive 10 minutes. There is no such thing as seasonal rides or pre-arranged rides at a higher rate. Yet the websites on the CBS page touted this.
Central park.com
A pre-arranged 45 minutes ride is quoted at $150 per carriage during off-season. Legally, it should be $110.
There is nothing in the law that allows for pre arranged or special rides –
Central Park Horses
The Big Loop: $169 (about 45 minutes) Again – -a 45 minute ride is $50 for the first 20 minutes; and $20 for each of the next 10 minutes – i.e., $50 + $60 = $110
The Exclusive Tour: $199 (about 1 hour) This ride should be $130
This is all illegal and it has been brought to the attention of the Department of Consumer Affairs time and time again and they continue to do nothing.
Something like elephant rides in Thailand..a bad idea.
I have seen these horses they are miserable. This torture must end. I see the horses limping in pain and they cant stand the exhaust fumes from the cars and buses and standing on the hard cement and blacktop. This is animal torture. End it now! They dont need a job. Paris and London have ended it. New York City must end this animal abuse and torture
CBS's new article is not an improvement – and it is simply a tip of the hat to the carriage trade. The article continues to favor the drivers – allowing them to make outrageous claims without being challenged and reserving the emotional hyperbole to me.
For example, I never said "Horses don't belong in the city," she said. "It's very upsetting."
iI was asked by CBS to provide some information, which I did. This is an excerpt of what I sent them:
"Horses do not belong in a crowded congested city like New York. These slow moving flimsy vehicles are unsafe and an accident waiting to happen, mixing with cars, taxis, buses, emergency vehicles, bicycles and pedestrians. Horses are prey animals who can spook at the slightest provocation and at 1500- 2000 pounds, they become unwitting weapons and can kill or injure themselves or people. People around the world have died in carriage horse spooking accidents.
The horses work between the shafts of their carriage for 9 hours straight, 7 days a week – coming back after a long day's work to a small stall in a multi storied stable accessed by a steep ramp (where a staircase was removed); often sweaty and dirty and not washed until the next morning so they look good to the ASPCA officers if they should happen to be on the job.
Legally, their stalls can be as small as 60 square feet – less than 1/2 of what it should be. Experts recommend a 144 sq. ft stall for standardbreds and an196 sq ft stall for the larger draft breeds. Horses need to be able to lay down with their legs extended to have a deep sleep. They are not able to do it in a small stall. The term "box stall" refers to configuration – not size.
As herd animals, horses need to have access to pasture – grass where they can graze and socialize with other horses, mutually grooming each other, a great stress reducer. But they do not have it in NYC. The 5 week vacations that were written into the law in 2010 cannot compare with the 47 weeks a year when they have nothing. Besides, the former ASPCA vet stated in a NY Post article that the horses looked worse when they come back after this furlough. We do not know why and it was never investigated. Does this mean that the horses are made to work – tied to a plough when they are on "vacation?
A carriage ride is legislated at $50 for the first 20 minutes and $20 for each consecutive 10 minutes. There is no such thing as seasonal rides or pre-arranged rides at a higher rate. Yet the websites on the CBS page touted this.
Central park.com
A pre-arranged 45 minutes ride is quoted at $150 per carriage during off-season. Legally, it should be $110.
There is nothing in the law that allows for pre arranged or special rides –
Central Park Horses
The Big Loop: $169 (about 45 minutes) Again – -a 45 minute ride is $50 for the first 20 minutes; and $20 for each of the next 10 minutes – i.e., $50 + $60 = $110
The Exclusive Tour: $199 (about 1 hour) This ride should be $130
This is all illegal and it has been brought to the attention of the Department of Consumer Affairs time and time again and they continue to do nothing.
Thank you for the great job you are doing in helping abolish this outdated practice of horse drawn carriages. It really irritates me when the carriage supporters boast about your salary–as if it is excessive. In reality we all know your long hours and dedication are the riches you offer in this disparaging conflict. Your salary should be a million dollars, and worth every red cent.
CBS, WHY don't you just forget the "unscientific" online polls? Those who are against carriage horses in NYC are mainly students and office workser with cushy inside jobs and access to a computer most of they day. they can keep voting to outlaw carriage horses and call or text all of their friends to do the same.
Most people who KNOW the TRUTH that carriage driving is not cruel or abusive are people who work with horses. their jobs requrie them to be OUTSIDE and away from comupter acces for MOST of the day. They do not have TIMW to just sit at a keybebord or play with their phones all day to vote in support of the carriage horses they love.
Get a clue– ALMOST all of the people who are against keeping the NYC carriiage horses are people with LITTLE or NO actual horse experience, or those who have not taken time to check out the FALSE propaganda that animal extremists have been spreading arount for about 30 years.
People who work with horses for a living or as an advocation, like famed horse whisperer Buck (subject of a movie by the same name) know that working as a carriage horse is one of the easiest and best jobs a horse can have.
Don't take my word for it, read his book The Faraway Horses. I think the quote can be found near or on page 251.
Change your name to Carriage Horse Hater. People are opening their eyes, and seeing for themselves. Time to hang up your whip and top hat and get a bicycle and make a living off your own sweat and toil.
No, peri- I am a carriage horse lover– how dare you try to dictate to me what my name should be. If anyone here is a carriage horse hater, peri- it is you and your friends who want to take these carriage horses' homes away, and separate them from the people they know and have grown attached to–their drivers and stablepersons. YOU are the carriage horse hater, not me.
If you are trying to bully me into silence it won't work. I know it must be frustrating for you to deal with people that can speak back and not an animal that you can whip into submission —but I will ALWAYS speak for the voiceless .
even though you are a HATER, know this, I am not against you, I am just for the horses. If you were a victim, i would speak just as strongly for you.
peri– Libel is an actionalbe cause. You have just libeled me by saying that I whip animals into submission, when I do not. You have posted a written lie about me. on the Internet.
After lying about me, you have your nerve saying you would speak up for me if I were a victim, when you have NOT.You have your nerve posting that you are not AGAINST me when you call ME a "hater."
I and my fellow carriage drivers, especially the ones in NYC have been the victims of the lies and false accusations of cruelty and abuse from radical animal rights extremists for DECADES.
Any you, peri, have just perpuated the abuse that your kind have been dumping undeservedly on US for DECADES by saying that I "whip (animals) into submission."
Peri- You have just libeled me by posting that I "whip animals into Submission." I do not like to be lied about on the Internet.
Extremists like you have been falsely accusing carriage drivers, especially NYC carriage drivers, of cruelty and abuse for DECADES.
You and your friends are the ABUSERS. You lie about your fellow humans and heap abuse on us while we are minding our own abuiness trying to make a liviing.
You and your friends are the HATERS. You are clueless about horses, so really they do not need someone like you to "speak" for them.
Sorry, Honey. I am not a student, nor am I an office "workser" with a cushy inside job. I do have experience with horses, and I would NEVER take a horse into city traffic and ask him to breathe carbon monoxide fumes all day, day after day after day. I would never house a horse in a multi-floored stable with no room in which to move around. I also can't imagine why anyone would say that not having access to water in the summer and only frozen water in the winter "is one of the easiest and best jobs a horse can have." It's time to ban carriage horses in New York.
CBS, WHY don't you just forget the "unscientific" online polls? …..hahahah! oh yes…please just forget the polls and let us go about our business of abuse…
peri- That last comment borders on defamation. Are you accusing me of animal abuse? I certainly hope not because even online posts can be traced down using isp addresses.
I take accusations of abuse very seriously as do most of the carriage horse owners I know. Remember the only defense against a lawsuit for defamation or libel is the TRUTH- backed up by FACTS, not opinions.
You are trying to bully your detractors into silence. You are posting anonymously – how could you possibly be libeled??? The fact is that this exploitative industry IS abuse and requires nothing more deranged on the part of the owners and drivers. Save your libel threats.
DKsanty is right! There is no libel or defamation here. You, SLH, Carriage Horse Lover, Lymann Farm and Laura whatever. Sue us! Nothing said on this page has been directed toward any or you, though you choose to pick fights with everyone. Libel; attack or injure reputation or honor by false and malicious statements. Defamation; False written or printed statements, signs, pictures, effigy to expose a person or persons to public ridicule, hatred or injure reputation. So gang, you are a bunch of bullies like another blogger said. You either profit from this cruel industry in some manner or you just like to belittle people. Either way, none of you has shown one horse in its stall getting rubbed down with linament after long day on the street, or evidence of standing wraps to provide comfort after long shifts, blankets, etc..etc… Basically, you all don't know because as you say, are not in the industry. No one on this blog needs to prove anything to you guys, what happens daily on the streets of NYC is al the proof we need.
Yes- I am accusing you of animal abuse if you are a carriage horse driver. Now sue me.
Good job Anne, libel, defamation, sue you. They are plenty with threats but short on humanity. The carriage horse industry as it is today is a cruel practice and needs to end. All that defend it, are party to the continued abuse that horses are subject to. "Prove it, site your research", all I need do is look at the current situation, it speaks for itself.
Sue me, too!
Most people that know the truth are the ones voting to abolish this cruelty and the HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS signing petitions asking the same – YOU are DISENGENUOUS – FOLLOW THE MONEY – people that are PRO carriage horse industry are making $$$$ on the suffering of these animals. Those against have NO vested interest except compassion.
Yes, often times these polls are rigged because the THUGISH carriage industry stacks the votes.
SOOOOO typical that these thugs use the word EXTREMIST to discredit HUMANE activity. Go to a demo and just watch who the ones acting badly and making threats are – NOT the Animal rights people that's for sure.
These horses do NOT belong on city streets and anyone that thinks this is OK does NOT love horses – PROVED by the fact that they do NOT retire the horse but sell the poor thing to slaughter after years of enslaved servitude – got to make that last buck on the animal. Don't take my word for it – go to the hack line and watch for yourself how these animals are driven – rain, SNOW, EXTREME Heat.
And BTW, maybe you should use spell check
You are simply incorrect. I have plenty of horse experience and because I care so much for these wonderful creatures who do not belong amongst traffic, I am against this. I do not have a "cushy" job, just compassion. Although, I'm not sure what office work has to do with anything. With all due respect, it is you who need to get a clue.
I'll try to make this simple. "The times they are a changin' " I hope. Horse drawn carriages were fine about 100 years ago, but no, horses do not belong in crowded, noisy city streets with exhaust going up their noses. No animal would enjoy that – Very Stressful people. Nor do they need to be forced into a life of walking back and forth all day and night in crowded city streets so silly people can look at the city. BORING! EXHAUSTING! It's archaic, unnecessary and inhumane. Why doesn't New York think of something new and genuinely creative to entertain their public.
Change for change's sake is NEVER good. I think the pollution caused by the ever-present motor vehicles that are a plague prove that. Can you say—"Global Warming?" Scientists say that motor vehicle emmissions are the number one cause of global warming
Horse-drawn vehicles do not pollute the air. Their "emmissions" are biodegradable and make excellent fertilizer.No one has ever had to worry about getting cancer from horse poop or urine. Can you say the same for fossil fuel emmissions? I think not. Not to mention that our dependence of foreign oil has forced us into several wars that have cause thousaind of American lives. Horses are a renewable source of power– and they can be obtained from domestic, not foreign sources.
I would rather take a tour of a city by carriage than by any other means. In fact it was a childhood carriage ride in NYC's Central Park that sparked in me a life-long love of horses. I have ridden and driven horses as a pastime, job or advocation all of my life, but now that I am retired, I finally have my "DREAM JOB."
I operate a not-for-profit retirement farm for just six lucky horses. They have a home here for life AND carriage rides help pay for their feed, vet and farrier care, and shelter.
At last I get to drive a horse and carriage and run a livery. My horse and I help make other's dreams come true, and add something extraordinary to their weddings, parades, parties and other special occasions. We also help draw visitors to our town with our carriage tours of the historic district.
I defy ANYONE to call me a horse abuser or to make the false claim that carriage driving is cruel. And Dr. Amy Curtis, how dare you spread lies and falsehoods. Drivers do not use whips to hit their horses. They are used as an "aid" just like a rider's legs to help direct the horse to walk on, turn right or left, or move over.
Just because you went to college and earned, what? Two degrees? A BS and a DVM, that doesn't make you an expert. ANYONE who knows about modern vet schools knows that unless someone specializes in equine medicine, most vet students do only a six- or nine-week rotation working with horses.
And in case you want to get in a "pi**ing contest regarding credentials. During my lifetime I have shown several saddle horses to championship status. I have had at least three horses achieve the honor of National High Point Versatility Horse. My late husband and I have ridden and driven in shows all over the southeast– and have ridden in our breed's national championship show.
In the past, until his death, we bred horses and stood stallions at stud as well as managed our own horse training and show operation. After 55 years of being around horses, I think I would recognize an abusive or cruel situation when I see one. I have looked at the NYC horses, and just do not see any abuse.
BTW apparently the ASPCA hasn't either because it has not been able to cite any NYC carriage horse owners or dirvers with cruelty charges despite allegations made by former Agent Ruiz that he and others were ordered to go "find something" to write the drivers up for.
Constance— If you have NEVER taken a carriage ride, how do you know whether it would be boring or exhausting– that is just your (probably) uninformed OPINION. Carriage driving is not archaic, unnecessary or inhumane– again just your opinion. And believe me, when the average person is no longer able to aford fuel for his or her motor vehicle, many people will be glad SOMEONE still knows how to drive horses.
OMG, what's a whip for? You really are full of yourself! This is biggest bunch of bull I've read yet.
A whip is an aid, much like leg used by a rider. It is not used to beat the horse, but to give direction. Please check out the American Driving Society, which explains the use of a whip in carriage driving. It is not bull – it is the purpose of the whip. A driver should ALWAYS carry a whip – it is a basic rule of driving and a safety feature. Don't get hysterical – read about its purpose from a reliable source. Or perhaps you can read about it on the British Driving Society website – it's a sport long patronized by the Royal Family.
Yes, Lorraine is ABSOLUTELY correct. A whip is an AID. It is NEVER to be used to strike a horse. Check the ADS rules on thir site, or read ANY book on carriage driving.
Thank you, Lorraine.I really like the bit about checking with the British Driving Society website. I guess now these people are going to clain that the Duke of Edenburgh is a horse abuser because he is a carriage driver of some requtation. And we all know that the British royals don't hesitate to ride in carriages, so I guess THEWY do not find them "boring and exhausting."
A whip is an aid??? I truly hope you don't have children.
Wow, get over yourselves, it was sarcasm. I have horses, I don't need a whip to make my horses perform. Mine aren't exhausted from working them into the ground like these carriage horses. And, yes I've seen horse person use whips to inflict pain. If you disagree, you aren't being truthful.
How many different names do you go by on here? And Constance is very well educated so you are barking up the wrong tree
2Kthy- Was that directed at moi? I have one name- my name says it all: Carriage Horse Lover. Believe me, there are many people posting here to try to educate the non-horsey public and to conter the LIES that the anti-carriage horse faction and their friends the radical animal rights extremists try to pass off. The one thing all of your posts have in common is that they ALL smack of "truthiness."
"Truthiness" –Merrian-Webster Dictionary definition— "the quality of preferring concepts or facts one wishes to be true, rather than concepts or facts known to be true" (American Dialect Society, January 2006)
lol – let's see the birth certificate for that name.
Lying does come naturally to those who defend the carriage industry, so no surprises there.
your complete idiotic comments are doing more for the animal rights community than we are! By all means, keep the comments coming. 🙂
CHL, you of all people, with such diverse, celebrated and equine experience, should be of caliber to realize this practice of horse drawn carriages is an awful idea in NYC. My eyes are NOT lying, for I have witnessed first hand from NYC, Philadelphia and to Atlanta, the miserable life of these horses. Nothing can sugarcoat the very obvious.
Here is my 10 cent quip: Careful, every time someone gives their opinion, or indicates opposition, someone from the horse and carriage industry screams "libel suit" to intimidate or challenge. I don't need to give a long written dissertation to make my point….enough said
Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
Martin Luther King, Jr.
Rather could it be supporters or others with actual equine knowledge merely providing the antithesis to a bunch of hysterical animal activists who clamber on about abuse but can provide no factual evidence other then "because I said so".
One should have a decent moral compass if quoting Martin Luther King. Horses deserve fair and humane treatment. Personal insults are unprofessional in any arena.
It is one of the saddest sights I have ever seen, a horse-drawn carriage making its way through a crowd of automobiles. The horse is a sensitive animal and deserves better treatment in this day and age.
From a former New Yorker, I have seen these horses cracked with whips, trip and fall over curbs, and almost get hit by cars. This is not a glamorous industry. These horses live in small crapped stalls in old multistory buildings WHICH IF EVER CAUGHT FIRE THESE HORSES WOULD ALL DIE. ….HELLO PEOPLE…..this is not a normal existence for any horse…I know I have 18 of them. They can be used for many types of work, but need time to graze, mingle with their herd members, have time off to rest and they do not get this in the carriage horse industry. They are worked everyday with insufficient enough rest and down time. This needs to be outlawed. These horses are abused and mistreated and over worked! Get a CLUE NEW YORK!!
Well said Doctor Curtis.
There is no hysteria here from the NY activists, only educated knowledge of what these horses are feeling from being used as a tool's in a very antiquated and inhumane tradition that should have been discontinued long ago, as people and traffic evolved in the city. There are new and more progressive humane ways to be entertained these days, come out of your narcissistic comas and educate yourself on horses and then you can determine if this treatment of these horse's is humane. It is not!This is a crime in a civilized society against nature and these horses.
there is no question about this. those darling horses are driven till they drop. they are in the streets with pollution, loud noises and scurrying of frantic humans. they are also forced to work whether they are lame, sick or exhausted. this must be banned forever!
Naomi- Your post is full of lies and I bet you know it. The NYC carriage hroses are NOT driven until they drop. They are too valuable to me overworked. They certainly are not forced to work when they are :lame, sick or exhaustend" because this would be "animal cruelty and abuse," which is against the law.
And again, I remind everyone reading these posts that NO NYC carriage driver or owner has ever been cited for "animal cruelty or abuse." IF they were forcing their horses to work "lame, sick or exhausted" as Naomi claims– they SURELY whould have gotten a citation or maybe even have been arrested. Common everyone, I know you all have seen at least one episode of "Animal Precinct" about the ASPCA enforcement officers and their cases.
"Inspections" of these rides are an absolute joke. IT NEEDS TO BE OUTLAWED. It's dangerous to all involved and these horses live horrible lives during and after (if they avoid slaughter – a rarity) their work. It's unethical, and we need to be their voice. Plain and simple!
And your proof (as in actual, verifiable facts) of this statement: "…these horses live horrible lives during and after (if they avoid slaughter – a rarity)…"?
Only the truth is a defense to a libel suit.
I dare you. Go ahead and sue. Then you would have to open your stables and your books to the other side.. You haven't got the guts.
I'm not part of the carriage industry, but if you want a tour of the stables all you have to do is ask.
And, FYI, in a libel suit, no they wouldn't.
i want a tour.
Laura, from Chicago, is it–the New York City carriage industry's days are numbered. As it should be. Exploitation of animals is not a tourist attraction.
For the record , We The animal nut jobs also advocate for homeless humans ,
same sex marriage , children and all that need to be spoken for .
Perhaps its a case of empathy , Or simply whats right .
PROOF??? You need look no further than their FACES!!!
"Most of [the horses] probably wouldn't be alive if they didn't have a job," Bloomberg said….
Their faces ? So you are so well faceted in equine behavior and physiology that you can read their minds ?
Do you know the subtleties between a sleeping horse and a bored horse or a bored horse and an unhappy one ?>
I doubt it and using "their faces" as a viable reason to ban an industry just further proves how little equine and even animal knowledge many of those opposed truly have.
You sir, obviously care for no animal!
On the contrary I work in the veterinary industry and have for the last 2 decades. I volunteer my services at a no kill shelter .
Quite opposite I care for animals but do not believe in hysteria being a medium for truth.
If you want facts about their husbandry and care all the answers are there .. an open book all you have to do is take off your own narrow minded blinders and be willing to educate yourself.
I'm not a mind reader, but a CHILD e could tell you that a horse that is foaming at the mouth, huffing and puffing, trailing diarrhea, and refuses to pick its head up…is in DISTRESS. … it never ceases to amaze me the lengths someone will go to to self delude and protect their income.
do the right thing jelly bean- get a job that is based on YOUR work, you will feel a lot better about yourself.
WOW- peri- Did you see this yourself– a horse with diarrhea being forced to work? If you did, did you REPORT it? If you did see a horse with real diarrhea being "forced to work" and didn't report it, then I guess you missed your chance to get a carriage driver cited.
But then, do you know what horse diarrhea looks like? BTW it is normal for working horses to "poop" while they continue moving- you see that happen in the show riing, on the ranch while working cattle and even while horses are just plodding along on pleasure trail rides. Not all horses bother to stopp while "pooping." And a horse who is walking or trotting allong while "pooping" does not necessarily have the "trots."
Diarrhea in horses is rather rare and is usualy a sign of illness. Horse diarrhea is VERY watery and usually green and very foul-smelling-s in short it looks like green water and smells like sick baby poo. Older horses, however, especially if on alfalfa or other "rich" hay or at grass, often have green stool that is not as firm and the "horse apples" do not hold thir shape and form once they hit the ground– THIS is NOT horse diarrhea– this is simply loose stool that usually clears up on its own in a day or so.
Hope this description will save you the embarassment of finding out that what you thought was diarrhea was simply a horse that had been at grass in the country before returning to work or an older horse that was being fed "alfalfa hay"– which is recommended becasue it helps heep the stool from becoming too hard and dry- which in older horses can lead to impaction colic.
And the "foaming" at the mouth? Well lots of horses play with their bits and salavate. That is considered very good because a moist mouth is desired when a horse is being ridden or driven. A horse with a driy mouth often finds the bit ucomfortable becasue a driy mouth promotes friction between the bit and the bars of the horse's mouth that can cause irritation. The moisture of the salava allows the bit to slip easily over the bars. (The "bars" are the gums of the horse's mouth in an interdental space behind the front incisors and in front of the back molars.) That is the proper place for the mouthpiece of a bit to rest.
Not only did I see it with my own eyes, but I caught it on my video camera.
****CBS- if you are interested in the video- I will be happy to share it. ***
STOP making excuses!! you are liars…after years of being used to the last drop, when they are no longer profitable they go to slaughter!!
@ Peri See and this is where your ignorant and assumptive comments make a fool out of you. Your reading comprehension is poor at best. You said and I will quote
"do the right thing jelly bean- get a job that is based on YOUR work, you will feel a lot better about yourself."
Now if you read above I believe I said "I work in the veterinary industry and have for the last 2 decades"
Now just for clarification for you I do not work in the carriage horse industry I work in the veterinary industry you know the medical industry that over sees the care and health of .. HORSES !
Now I don't expect you to read or comprehend this based on your obvious fail above but a little lesson on equine morphology biology and husbandry. Horses foaming at the mouth do so because of the production of saliva in a relaxed mouth the saliva interacts with the bit movement of the bit and horses mastication of such and creates a foam. It in now way is a sigh of abuse.
I understand that you need something in life to cling to to feel adequate but do YOUR self a favor and get a new hobby go lobby for animals that are actually abused or neglected or I don't know take up knitting.
SLH, you just love bashing people! Peri is entitled to his opionion about this cruel business, and up til now all I've seen you and your friends do is spout outlandish claims about all your experience with horses, but you don't work in the Carriagie Business. There is no talking to people like you that find so much enjoyment in demeaning others for their empathy for the cruel treatment of horses. Who cares if you're a vet or vet tech, makes no difference to me. If you condone what's going on in NY, you're just as culpable. And quit with the libel, defamation crap. Opinions about the cruelty of horses that you say you're not involved with, are just that, so get off your high horse sweetie!
Can you please site where I have said anything about libel. Now lies , un truths and a little bit of non sense you bet.
I'm not bothered or upset at all that you are empathetic or passionate about horses or animals in general. What is bothersome is when you allow yourself to believe and convey mindless garbage.
Ask yourself why if the ASPCA is in charge of monitoring and inspecting the horses.. and they are the number one supporter for an industry ban… they don't have any citations on record. NONE. One would think that they would be going gang busters trying to write up as many infractions as possible to support their claims. Alas they can't… because the claims are false.
Watch the video Debbie go see how they really live.
How interesting that when SLH, or others like her, can't come up with a good argument or rebuttal, they result in saying rude, insulting or demeaning words… Much like a playground bully. Or they ask you to view an outdated video on YouTube, where they can stage, temporarily, for the horses to look "maintained"., etc. living in the lap of luxury. Apparently this whole fiasco called carriage industry is a sport to them, however it is a very real passion for those saving animals? In sure they have hateful things to say about MY remarks.
Oops- typo: I'm sure they have hateful things to say about MY remarks.
Please point out where in the reply above I said anything "mean". Your and many other reply have lacked anything factual.
Per the "outdated" video on youtube you cheered the 4 year old video of a driver acting out after being goaded by activists and you defended the group of activists parading around a children's store protesting with macabre posters attempting upset and traumatize the children present. PETA tactics much ?
But the videos of the horses living just as they do today you of COURSE call staged. How could you possibly look at that video and come to terms with that they are well cared for and you and all your emotional proselytizing might be wrong.
I mean nobody expects you to openly admit that ..so ranting about being bullied and playing the victim suits your cause. I mean how else can you explain away that you and you ilk have yet to provide a single ounce of factual evidence to support your claims. Now the CHI has provided veterinary statements , ledgers , videos of their barns , videos of the horses during their time out of the city .. yet in all that NONE of you have provided on shred of evidence in support of your cause. Other then because I "think" or "feel" so.
The "its staged " comment is just more of the typical illogical hysteria..carry on.
Your postings to those who disagree with you speak for themselves. We can read. The protest at American Girl was factual in relating your carriage industry to those who support it. No lawsuit filed there that i saw!!! I have never pretended to be a victim, so I won't accept your vile non-productive attitude and scorn. I hide behind no one. I know too that in small town America, as well as large cities, one hand often washes the other. Crooked politics exists. The only hysteria will be when you are voted out of business. You just argue to hear yourself talk.
Yet you continue to respond still lacking evidence and factual proof of your provided claims of abuse.
Your theories and "feelings" of abuse a certainly a platform built on sand. Because lets face it were there any validity in they hypocrisy you continue to lament about this debate would not be going on.
I don't have scorn or contempt for you CBO more pity that so much passion and empathy can be manipulated so easily into such a negative
Wait..you saw a horse doing all that at the same time? doubt it!!! And you did nothing? No video, no pix? Now I know you are a liar…..Sorry, not swayed by your lies. Some may….not me. When does a horse foam at the mouth and why. Tech me. What is the relaxed stance of a Draft horse? Specifically head carriage, as opposed to a non draft? Please educate me and the crowd
Just read your article. I will no longer watch CBS News as long as you print things which are patent advertising for an industry which is abusive to animals.
Sounds like a plan. Same here.
N Harris- Just because you THINK "an industry" is abusive to animalsdoes not make it so. Opinion. Where is your PROOF for branding an entire "industry" abusive? BTW there really isn't a "carriage industry." There are independent carriage horse livery owners and drivers. These people are small business owners- just like your mom-and-pop stores. There is no single "industry."
"While the guide was intended to be just that — a guide to our readers in and around New York City "
Sorry, but when your writer says " Give in to your inner tourist, and hop into the carriage", your article has crossed the line from being merely a "guide", to advocating for the industry.
Well stated!
The only people against them are New Yorkers, and hard-core animanl righs activists.
If tourists, the ones who use them read 1010wins or participated in any local poll, that 75% in favor of disbanding would be more like 10%.
And if the stables are as great as they say, then they should put live cameras in them so we can all see. I for one would like the in-house tour, as I'm sure it is nice. But I'm not in the city much. But I do have a smart phone, And I am on Skype. And I can see Times Square and many parts of the world live. Heck I can even see a Lobster in a lobster pot in the ocean in Maine!
So why not the live feed cameras on the horse stables? And then its, See ya later pessimists !!
What a novel idea! That would make them reveal "the truth".. It would document shifts of the working horses and their drivers. And all living quarters for the horses. Ha! How revealing that could be!
Go to Youtube.com Type in StopLiesSeeTruth. That channel belongs to genuine NYC carriage driver. He has more than 40 vids up showing various aspects of the lives of the NYC carriage horse drivers and horses. Go there, he has a filmed tour of the stables showing the horse, their stalls, their auto waters, their fan-mist cooling system, and etc. He also has vide showing retired carriage horses on his farm in the country and vids of rabid radical extremists screaming at the drivers and their passengers. Go check it out. StopLiesSeeTruth on Youtube.com
ONE carriage horse only one HORSE died last fall. His death was sudden and unexpected. Charlie the carriage horse "dropped dead" just like the Olympic Show Jumper HIckstead and the reknown dressage stare Northern Hector. Both Hickstead and Carile were 15 years old. I believe Northern Hector was also around that same age.
Horses sometimes die unexectedly, just like people. Carlie's death was proved to have had NOTHING to do with his job as a carriage horse ast as the two other horses' deaths were not caused by their jobs.
your a liar.
Gee peri- How juvenile. You need grammar lessons, too. IT's YOU'RE a liar, not "your a liar." But NO I AM NOT A LIAR– I guess you are just unable to ACCEPT the TRUTH.
I think you need to quit posting so much on the Internet and get back to studying your Englsh grammar lessons so you can get out of high school.
Only one,, you say that like it's meaningless. Oh it is with somebody like you. Last fall meaning in three months? Still not a very good record in most humane people's mind. How about for the entire year?
@ Kathy One .. One for the entire year. Clearly you did not bother to read any more into it then "a horse died" Not that the horse's detailed necropsy reported no abuse and no cause of death related to the carriage horse industry.
Go read about how many horses in eventing or show jumping or heck even pleasure horses in one geographic area have died in a year. One is a damn good record.
I've seen more than one on the news. This speaks of more than one. You try following a subject instead just going by one article
@ Kathy you cite an anti horse cite mediated by activists as "factual representation"
Again ONE horse died in 2011 his name was Charlie his necropsy provided no evidence of abuse or neglect matter of fact it cited the horse to be in "good condition"
Horses in good health always drop dead? News to me
@ Kathy do people of good health sometimes die unexpectedly and suddenly with no for warning? Yes the answer is yes sometimes living creatures die without for-warning and cause.. and the PROOF is in Charlies Necropsy report which was publicly provided.
No body I know of unless they are murdered
So you know nobody who has died of a cardiac event , stroke , Aneurysm , arrhythmia , , Long qt syndrome, Anaphylaxis , Allergic reaction, Ruptured aortic aneurysm, pulmonary embolus . If that is the case you are very lucky . However for the rest of the world all those things can kill an outwardly appearing person to die suddenly without warning. They also are all conditions that equines can and have died from again suddenly without warning.
There is no point in acting obtuse over his sad demise Kathy sometimes things do die unexpectedly without warning or blame to be had.
Did you hear of the horrible tragedy last year. High School boy died playing football with his team. A young man …it happened. But High School Foot Ball wasn't banned. It happens. ALL OVER. You just never know. Young/Old….very sad. So your above mentioned comment of "No body I know of unless they are murdered" is conveniently ignorant. Watch world news, and read the paper. gEEZE..READ THE oBITS…HOW MAY PEOPLE KNOW WHEN ITS COMING….NOT MANY, OR ALL LOOSE ENDS WOULD BE TIED!
You are the one spewing ignorance. So a boy just dropped dead and the autopsy said no reason? just dead? Oh please, he was dehydrated or had an unknown heart condition,, but there is always a reason. Get a clue Stepanie Ann then get a life
Go Kathy, I and numerous others share your feeling. Well done Kathy, YOU ROCK!!!!!!!!
SLH–the "reporter" of the article goofed; she apparently could not be bothered to read about the accidents of the last year alone–including the collapse and death of Charlie on October 23 (and the Oct. 28 spooking accident, and the horse who fell a few days after that near the Mandarin Oriental, and the horse who fell Dec. 4 near the Plaza Hotel). Her mistakes are not the fault of the coalition, which has the facts down so good you cannot imagine.
So you agree then that ONE horse died in NYC in 2011 named charlie and a necropsy report was provided by Cornell ?
Thank you walknyc
SLH, his is serious stuff, but it is so funny you quoting Charlie was in good condition
He definitely can not be in good condition, he is DEAD !!!
At time of necropsy Cornells attending veterinarians who preformed the procedure cited the horse was in "good body condition" taken literally it means that at time of death he was physically in outward appearance not lacking in nutritional condition.
"Corey points out that Charlie was a recently acquired horse and had passed all his veterinary exams, showing no signs of poor health. "
"There was no evidence Charlie was suffering from cruelty or neglect, Corey said in what the carriage organisation described as a stunning retraction.
According to Corey's statement, there was no evidence Charlie was in pain during his time as a carriage horse, and by all outward appearances and behaviour, he was healthy."
All quotes by Dr. Pamela Corey, director of equine veterinary services for the American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (ASPCA) Humane Law Enforcement Department,
Last press release by the ASPCA confirming no gross findings on cause of death. http://www.aspca.org/Pressroom/press-releases/121611
Kathy- Grow up– You can't read my tone or decide how I feel about Charlie's death. You don't know me and you have your nerve trying to ascribe a particular point-of-view to me regarding Charlie's death. I do know this about it though the anti-carriage horse forces tried to turn his death into a MONEY-MAKING opportunity.
Imagine that, the very people who denounce us carriage horse owners over imagined cruelty and abuse actually tried to MAKE MONEY off of someone else's DEAD HORSE– how sick is THAT?
Yes, that's right Forel and her group made "dog tags" with Charlie's name on them and tried to SELL them for MONEY. Where I come from it sure looks like you anti-carriage horse people didn't mind trying to make a buck off poor dead Charlie.
And while you were doing that, you were heaping insults, blame and recriminations on his GRIEVING owner's and driver's heads. Oh yes, you really have some nerve Kathy. You people are a bunch of ghouls who can't wait to paste up the latest photos of dead carriage horses all over the Internet– all in the name of trying to "save" them. Yeah, right. I think you all just have some sick fetish for looking at images of dead horses.
LOLOL me grow up, you have just about everybody on here laughing at you:)
Look in the mirror
I think anyone who resorts to text speak during a conversation suddenly loses all validity . Use your words.
You think all of this horse abuse is okay lynnwood farms so why would I care what ever else you think?
Never asked you to care what I think only to take the time to be open to facts vs hysterical propaganda.
See the difference between you and I Kathy is that you "think" they are abused and I thanks to facts and an education in animal science know they are not.
Animal science,,,,that gives you a free pass? I don't think so.
Many activists were born with a gift to be able to handle any animal, even hurt wild ones. So what makes you so special. I have a sister who is overly educated with all kinds of degrees, retired from the Navy as a Commander and now works for the DOD. She also can not look into the eyes of an animal and understand all their hurts had fears. Animal rights activists sacrifice, live by a code, never exploit animals. Your little degree can't buy you what we have. It's not for sale
So you are against facts and education. Honestly you take the cake. I understand the empathy and I understand when people who don't have a clue get brainwashed into believing there is abuse when there is none. Really you are so off your rocker that you think that activism gives a "gift" that allows you to handle up to and including wild animals.
Typical response from those who can't handle the truth. Attack the opposing side.
Your arguments are motto and you just proved it. I'm done with you.
Have a nice life
To Katy below Just going to re quote your own words "Many activists were born with a gift to be able to handle any animal, even hurt wild ones. "
Any idea how dangerous your statement and sentiments are …what happens when a young "believer" reads your words takes them for truth and goes out and tries to handle injured wild life ..I mean you said "born with a gift right". That statement alone is so full of negligent illogical thinking its down right scary.
MY word I hope nobody without training or experience is out attempting through their activist powers to handle wild animals.
Welcome to the new millennium!! Even you can be tech. savvy, too! U R never too old to learn something new. Long live text speak, LOL. Why type three paragraphs to make a point?
Oh I don't know if you want to sound like a 13 year old I think its just fine. The whole point of text speach was to save time when using small keyboards on phones and other mobile devices.
Do you know there are schools that have banned the use of text speak and not just confined to mobile devices. Because research has shown that it makes the students less likely to land jobs or be accepted to college. Bottom line it makes you sound absurd and simple.
Lynwood Farms>In this forum, there isn't a reason to rattle on about the subject at hand. Direct & to the point is permissible. BTW, I have a college degree and a profession. When appropriate I know how to elaborate…..and on occasion, spellcheck is handy.
In New York City horse-drawn carriages are unsafe at any speed!!! In our endless dense traffic.
For the riders, the drivers, the pedestrians and the horses. You never know when a horse might bolt or the driver of a car suddenly loose control and hit a carriage, possibly a carriage with young children in it.
Apart from safety issues, the horses look miserable having to breathe in all those toxic fumes from the cars in front of them all the time. And, reports keep coming that the drivers are rude to people on the streets. The situation has become an embarrassment for New Yorkers. The carriage horse business is not something we can be proud of any more.
It should be banned.
As to the article ONE not Two horses passed away this year. Charlie died suddenly minutes into his shift on his way to work. His body was confiscated by the ASPCA and taken to Cornell for a nercropsy. The ASPCA then attempted to twist and mare the truth strong arming lead ASPCA vet Dr. Corey to write that the horse died in pain from conditions neglected by the industry. BOTH statements were written under duress and when Dr.Corey attempted to retract the statements and admitted that Charlie was in no pain and his necropsy show'd now signs of abuse or neglect. She was suspended with out pay.
This would the the same ASPCA that vocally would like the industry banned ..now willing to lie and coerce in order to spin situations to suit them. The same ASPCA that has donated 450,000 dollars to NYClass in order fund their electric car prototype which they have yet to produce. So where did that 450,000 go … it could have been used to save and support a lot horses truly in need unlike the NYC carriage horses.
It is so tiring to constantly read the same mis-truths about their care when they are inspected by the ASPCA who admits to wanting a bad on a regular basis. There have been NO citations ever issued don't you think if there was the slightest issue the ASPCA would pounce on it.
For heavens sake they were willing to falsify a horses medical records to spin it in their favor. The facts speak the truth the NYC carriage horses are well cared for.
These horses do not believe in the filthy smog in NYC. They have no life. They would not be dead if they weren't working. People don't go to NYC to get a ride in hte carriages, they only do it because they have no idea the scrutiny these horses are going through. Living in dirty conditions, closed in, they should be out on a farm. I will keep fighting to end this for as long as I live.
Oh, HORSES don't deserve to live in the filthy smaog in NYC, but people do? Thanks for letting me know how bad the air is in NYC so I can make sure never to visit there again. Here that sound? Thats the sound of millions of tourist dollars being sucked out of NYC's economy. Who wants to visit city where the air is so BAD and the city so dirty that animals shouldn't live there?
This new CBS article is just another hat tip to the carriage industry giving them the last word and letting them say things that are not challenged. When CBS asked me for information – this is part of what I wrote back – of course it was not include din the article – only hyperbole was.
I never said "horses do not belong in the city – it is upsetting" But I did say this:
Horses do not belong in a crowded congested city like New York. These slow moving flimsy vehicles are unsafe and an accident waiting to happen, mixing with cars, taxis, buses, emergency vehicles, bicycles and pedestrians. Horses are prey animals who can spook at the slightest provocation and at 1500- 2000 pounds, they become unwitting weapons and can kill or injure themselves or people. People around the world have died in carriage horse spooking accidents.
The horses work between the shafts of their carriage for 9 hours straight, 7 days a week – coming back after a long day's work to a small stall in a multi storied stable accessed by a steep ramp (where a staircase was removed); often sweaty and dirty and not washed until the next morning so they look good to the ASPCA officers if they should happen to be on the job.
Legally, their stalls can be as small as 60 square feet – less than 1/2 of what it should be. Experts recommend a 144 sq. ft stall for standardbreds and 196 sq ft stall for the larger draft breeds. Horses need to be able to lay down with their legs extended to have a deep sleep. They are not able to do it in a small stall. The term "box stall" refers to configuration – not size.
As herd animals, horses need to have access to pasture – grass where they can graze and socialize with other horses, mutually grooming each other, a great stress reducer. But they do not have it in NYC. The 5 week vacations that were written into the law in 2010 cannot compare with the 47 weeks a year when they have nothing. Besides, the former ASPCA vet stated in a NY Post article that the horses looked worse when they come back after this furlough. We do not know why and it was never investigated. Does this mean that the horses are made to work – hooked up to pull when they are on "vacation?
A carriage ride is legislated at $50 for the first 20 minutes and $20 for each consecutive 10 minutes. There is no such thing as seasonal rides or pre-arranged rides at a higher rate. Yet the websites on the CBS page touted this.
Central park.com
A pre-arranged 45 minutes ride is quoted at $150 per carriage during off-season. Legally, it should be $110.
There is nothing in the law that allows for pre arranged rides –
Central Park Horses
The Big Loop: $169 (about 45 minutes) Again – -a 45 minute ride is $50 for the first 20 minutes; and $20 for each of the next 10 minutes – i.e., $50 + $60 = $110
I have filed numerous complaints about specific carriage horse drivers and incidents that I myself witnessed in which the driver treated his/her carriage horse badly. My parents met riding, we rode together as a family every week, and my great aunt and uncle helped make Morgan horses into a breed. I love and know horses, and these drivers are clueless.
No one who doesn't know how to drive a horse, and who doesn't love horses should ever be allowed to drive a carriage and horse in the City of NY. If you want them to be in the City, arrange for them to live in Central Park and be driven only there, give them one of the meadows to run and play in. I'll bet tourists will come to see them there, not just ride in a carriage.
Class action lawsuit anyone?
I have been working and riding horses for 20 years. I am a horse owner. This is a great compromise – there is so much room in Central Park for a nice stable and turnout. The fact that they pull carriages is not the problem. The problem is the environment in which they are forced to pull carriages. Too dangerous. I'm sure tourists would be fine with sticking within the park walls for their ride. Make a change, NYC!!!!
This is EXACTLY what I've been suggesting to anyone who will listen all along: arrange for a meadow in Central Park for the horses, and limit carriage rides ONLY to the Park itself.
I completely agree that people would come to see the "Central Park Horses"…..and, in fact, I think they would prove a wonderful educational opportunity for NYC schoolchildren….
Totally with you on this!
Don't you have a big enough heart to care about all living beings? I do.
Oh yes…you make complete sense…torturing horses HELPS homeless people…
This has nothing to do with PETA. This is an issue of morality.
This: "After two horses dropped dead in Manhattan last fall…" is incorrect. There was one horse that died – his name was Charlie. As was reported elsewhere, the ASPCA's then veterinarian was forced by the organization to lie about the possible cause of Charlie's death (http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/editorials/the_aspca_dead_horse_zpmaicXxkHxnalD2VJE3kN) and later stated in admitting the deception: "There was no evidence of cruelty or neglect…"
I would just like to point out that there was only ONE horse that "dropped dead " last fall in response to your quote
"After two horses dropped dead in Manhattan last fall, the president of the Coalition to Ban Horse-Drawn Carriages, Elizabeth Forel, was one of the animal-rights activists to speak out.
Charlie had only been working in the city for 3wks prior to his passing. His nercropsy report found no signs of neglect or abuse or any valid concerns that the horse's death could be attributed to his occupation. Further more you are not reporting on the ASPCA'S attempt to twist the results of the report to suggest otherwise ..which ultimately led to Dr. Corey refusing to be an accomplice to a clearly biased and corrupt situation resulting her request that her prior statement be know to be false and written with pressure from her employer the ASPCA . For which she was suspended without pay. Apparently the ASPCA encourages falsification of legal medical documents as long as it benefits their positions.
The bottom line is that the vast majority of the detractors either have little to know horse sense or are severely corrupted and compromised as to their reasons for which they would like to see the NYC carriage industry dissolved.
Steve Nyslick's organization NYClass was given well over 450,000 dollars in donations for their proposed "electric car" yet there is not even a prototype on the market. Who gave them the money their bed fellow the ASPCA.
So what has that 450,000 dollars produced ..a 8'm none working model and a salary for Ms. Carly Knudson who often is the figure head for their efforts to ban horses from the city. Yet she has ZERO personal equine experience or knowledge .
The Carriage Horse industry of which I am not a member of merely a supporter has been forthcoming and very open with their care and concern for their working equine partners. They have invited many of their detractors including out spoken advocate Lea Michel to come tour their facilities and see for themselves the horses are well taken care of using top standards.
The coalition to Ban Horse-Drawn Carriages should put their effort in helping people!!
Absolutely – or at least the many horses in this country who really need help! The NYC carriage horses are just fine.
@ Olivia Joan – Horses do not belong on the streets of any city amongst the traffic, it is dangerous to everybody and unfair to the horses. Horses are easily spooked by anything at anytime and the city streets have plenty to spook at.
So mounted police horses should also be banned from cities ?
Mounted Equine Police are trained constantly to work in the cities. Carriage horses are made to pull a cart with humans in it in heavy traffic. Big difference.
So you really believe in all honestly that mounted police horses are conditioned to urban life and carriage horses are not ?
Do you know that there is a regulated trial/training period for any new horse licensed in the city ?
Clearly not since you think that police horses are the only ones given training.
The shear ignorance is overwhelming
How dare you imply me ignorant! The NYC carriage horses have no choice but to get harnessed up each day and do what's asked of them. Where is the training to dodge cars, not inhale exhaust fumes, get clear of immediate danger? As I said, big difference but it appears I writing to blank space and a very opinionated person who will use a horse and discard when finished.
You are ignorant when it comes to horses, let alone to carriage horses.
And I'm the one making blanket assumptions. Only laughable in its irony. What "Immediate danger " are you speaking of? If the streets of NYC are so polluted and dangerous that it is an unfit environment for equines then it also is an unsafe environment for humans , dogs , cats . If there is that much traffic danger then NYC better get on the handle about banning pedestrians , pedi-cabs , cyclists and other motorists.
I don't have to imply your ignorant you do a find job of presenting your own case.
The only implying done in this discourse has been your assumption about what I do or do not do with my own horses. If you'd like to come visit them and how they are so very discarded by all means come on over.
The NYC police horses on duty any given day don't have a choice about being saddled and ridden for hours out of the streets in traffic either. Why are you not so upset about them, Debbie?
The NYPD horses are actually deliberately ridden into dangerous situations to disburse crowds and even to apprehend suspected criminals. Why are you not concerned for their welfare? Do you think they have more choice about what they do than the carriage horses, who just walk along giving tourists a nice view of Central Park?
@Debbie…And just how do those differ? Oh, let's see….equines working police duty are exposed to gunshots, aggressive humans, odd situations, traffic….
Wait a minute.
Carriage horses are exposed to backfires, strange, aggressive and overly affectionate humans, odd situations, traffic…
As someone who grew up raising and training Belgian draft horses to work in public, a really sound, well-trained horse is a treasure, and is treated like one. When they're brought out for the day, they are groomed, checked over, hooves cleaned and checked for any signs of incipient lameness…
The horseman knows what is normal and what is not for their horse, and not just from their darling faces. Horses can be bored, but far as I know, it's never killed one. Horses can be tired, but that's something the driver can see and moderate until the day is over, or a different horse brought in.
If these carriage horses were skinny, beaten, abused creatures, believe me, there are enough eyes on them and enough people who REALLY know horses to catch it.
It's one of the biggest foofaraws I've ever seen that sits on no reasonable basis but that some people can't stand to see animals work for a living.
You took the words right out of my mouth. Well said. We are talking about HORSE DRAWN CARRIAGE on the busy streets of NEW YORK. Big difference
@ tired of hearing it people have voices, animals don't.
Grow up. We live in a whole world, not just one for ourselves.
Why not just confine them to the park? No question, they don't belong on the streets – that is cruel..
The homeless don't belong in the street. Are you helping them?
Here is the truth about NYC carriage horses:
There has NEVER been a carriage horse driver cited for abuse of a carriage horse.
There has NEVER been a citation for mistreatment, cruelty, etc.
Three horses have died in traffic accidents while on duty in over 30 years; seven other horses have died while working in over 30 years. That's 10 horses in over 30 years! I am in no way minimizing the death of any horse, but that is a remarkable record. There is no other riding discipline that can come close to that number.
The drivers must present ALL the paperwork upon demand by an ASPCA agent or city inspector. The ASPCA performs, on average, about 180 hackline inspections every year (about once every other day, where they check all paperwork, plus the horses). That's not counting stable inspections and individual horse inspections. And that's not counting inspections by the city inspectors.
The New York City carriage horses are some of the most regulated animals in this country. The fact there has never been a citation for mistreatment or cruelty, even with an awful lot of folks looking for it, speaks volumes.
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is. Winston Churchill
Horse-drawn carriages in New York City should be banned. The horses are abused; forced to work in deplorable conditions; not cared for properly (feed/water/veterinary care). A horse-drawn carriage is NOT "romantic," it's the barbaric treatment of horses for money, period. I am NOT affiliated with PETA in ANY way, so do not group me thus. PETA doesn't actually know any real facts about horses and the horse industries–but there are scores of us out here who DO work in horse industries, who take a stand against horse-drawn carriages. Get rid of them NOW, Mayor Bloomberg!
They are very well-cared for. Did you notice that CBS actually did some research? You work in the equine industry, so is what you do "the barbaric treatment of horses for money?" Care to enlighten us as to your equestrian pursuit – because the radical animal rights activists will find a way to declare it animal abuse.
what research? They couldn't even bother to look up the number of accidents and deaths!
Unless you have actual PROOF of these statements: "The horses are abused; forced to work in deplorable conditions; not cared for properly (feed/water/veterinary care). … it's the barbaric treatment of horses for money, period…" then I suggest you chose your words more carefully. Only truth is an absolute defense to a libel suit.
I take it you are a slave driver?
Laura, if you believe for a minute that the ASPCA or PETA or any other government agency charged with looking after these horses is beyond being coerced to find no neglect or abuse, you are naive. The BLM, APHIS, USDA vets all have neglected their duties and the horses they're charged with looking after and are as corrupt as the NYC inspectors. The horses live in horrid conditions and are treated like a machine, not an animal. An animal, voiceless and forced into these oppressive work conditions that would break down the health and spirit of the healthiest of horses. As for the homeless, that's the states job, and those people have a voice.
Well, since the ASPCA is also FOR the ban on the carriages, I think they have more reason than any to find abuse and neglect and yet, gee, they haven't. And if you actually believe that PETA would not be thrilled if the ban went through, then you are delusional.
As for this: "The horses live in horrid conditions and are treated like a machine, not an animal. An animal, voiceless and forced into these oppressive work conditions …" unless you have actual PROOF of your unfounded allegations, I suggest you chose your words more carefully. Only the truth is a defense to libel.
I've done my research, you do your own! As far as whether my comments are true, I say the same about your comments. Prove me wrong!
I'll repeat what I said above:
"There has NEVER been a carriage horse driver cited for abuse of a carriage horse.
There has NEVER been a citation for mistreatment, cruelty, etc.
Three horses have died in traffic accidents while on duty in over 30 years; seven other horses have died while working in over 30 years. That's 10 horses in over 30 years! I am in no way minimizing the death of any horse, but that is a remarkable record. There is no other riding discipline that can come close to that number.
The drivers must present ALL the paperwork upon demand by an ASPCA agent or city inspector. The ASPCA performs, on average, about 180 hackline inspections every year (about once every other day, where they check all paperwork, plus the horses). That's not counting stable inspections and individual horse inspections. And that's not counting inspections by the city inspectors.
The New York City carriage horses are some of the most regulated animals in this country. The fact there has never been a citation for mistreatment or cruelty, even with an awful lot of folks looking for it, speaks volumes."
And your proof is?
Who do you work for? Your comments are so biased as the expose' depicting quiet carriage rides on secluded streets. I find your comments disparaging.
Laura is a horsewoman – not a carriage driver, so don't start calling her an "industry shill." She has done her research – please cite your proof, as she has asked you to do. Interestingly, the HCANY has asked for a debate on this issue with NYC-CLASS reps, Donny Moss, Liz Forel and others many times. They are never taken up on it – always some tired excuse. The real reason appears to be that the anti-carriage leadership DOES NOT HAVE FACTS and don't want to expose themselves. I'm sure the offer is still open. How about it, Carly Knudsen? Want to earn that 70k you make annually trying to put people out of business under the guise of "animal abuse" when your boss wants the stables to develop parking lots?
I don't work for the carriage industry, if that is what you are asking.
I suggest you look up the definition of "disparaging". What I state are actual, verifiable facts.
Oh, and you haven't answered my questions – where is your PROOF as in actual FACTS that these horses are abused, mistreated, whatever you claim?
Like I said, prove me wrong.
you are a LYING. In your later post you say – if you want a tour just ask US. and now you say you have nothing to do with the industry. That's what i love about liars…they can never keep up with their own lies….time to change your alias….again 🙂
There are sure enough carriage drivers cited for driving the carriage while intoxicated–according to the Department of Health, which is one of the city agencies charged with overseeing industry. (The 2007 audit found, however, that the city had pretty much "dropped the ball" and failed miserably).
ASPCA: http://www.aspca.org/fight-animal-cruelty/animal-precinct/nyc-carriage-horse-industry.aspx
PETA: http://www.peta.org/issues/animals-in-entertainment/horse-drawn-carriages.aspx
Since you didn't even get these very basic facts right, forgive me if I don't think you have a lick of proof of any of your allegations. Actually, I know you don't.
ASPCA: http://www.aspca.org/fight-animal-cruelty/animal-precinct/nyc-carriage-horse-industry.aspx
PETA: http://www.peta.org/issues/animals-in-entertainment/horse-drawn-carriages.aspx
Since you can't even get these very basic facts right, forgive me if I don't think you have any proof of your allegations. Actually, I know you don't.
The ASPCA's statement on the NYC carriage horses: http://www.aspca.org/fight-animal-cruelty/animal-precinct/nyc-carriage-horse-industry.aspx
PETA's statement on the NYC carriage horses: http://www.peta.org/issues/animals-in-entertainment/horse-drawn-carriages.aspx
Since you didn't even know the very simple fact that both the ASPCA and PETA support a ban on the carriage horses, you'll forgive me if I don't believe a word you say.
Typical humanatic overly zealous hysteria hand in hand with falsified propaganda without any truth. When asked to produce proof or justify their statements more babble in an attempt to defer them from looking foolish.
Please provide proof of "horrid conditions " or any other abuse you seem to so passionately believe.
The industry has opened their doors to detractors and invited many of them to come tour the stables to see how the horses actually live and are cared for. None of them have accepted. I guess when your mental "truth" is questioned the best course of action is to continue to live in the dark and prostrating the same garbage without attempting to gain knowledge. Sounds sane.
http://banhdc.org/ch-why.shtml . Link for all you horse haters. Pic of horse stalled in parking garage unavailable at this time, but the thought inhumane. SHOW me where these horses are allowed to lie down and rest
@ Debbie again a sight mediated and created by activists. Rather why don't you take a look at the actual stables via video ! The truth and facts are hard to fabricate Debbie. Big comfy stalls clean and deeply bedded.
No thank you! I've seen the stalls and know what happens to the horse when you use them up. They are slaughter bound! That's a fact!
Debbie, if you have these so-called facts, please present the evidence. Maybe you'd like to debate the HCANY and present your facts? Why don't you post a photo of a carriage horse in poor condition out on CPS? Could it be because they all look good and healthy? Do you have any horse experience whatsoever out of My Little Pony?
So you claim abuse and want to believe in poor living conditions but refuse to watch a video of where they actually live. Seems logical !
@ Debbie "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity."
Martin Luther King, Jr.
And again you are wrong when they are done they are retired either privately through their owners or they have the open option to retire to http://www.equiculture.org/
SLH>If you don't possess a moral compass…please STOP quoting Martin Luther King. It isn't professionally becoming of you to be a bully to those who think differently. Your spewing of insults surely reflects your lack of sincere compassion for the subject at hand. Your credibility as certainly digressed from your first initial posting.
If quoting MLK is being a bully sign me up.
Quite frankly the only think I've insulted in the logical process in which these claims of abuse are founded on.
Now if that some how hits close to home well then I apologize for being direct.
It however does nothing to detract from my original position that based on facts not emotion or hearsay the NYC horses are not abused. If there are cases in which you or yours feel there are misgivings please provide them so that they can be reviewed.
http://www.treehugger.com/natural-sciences/can-horse-drawn-carriage-rides-be-romantic-and-cruel-at-the-same-time.html What happens to carriage horses. They are a money making commodity, paying you owners right to the very end when they wind up on someone's dinner plate. So if what they endure while pulling carriages isn't bad enough, then you send them to a horrendous death in Canada or Mexico where they are brutally butchered and packaged for human consumption. The whole mess is disgusting!
@ Debbie again you cite a link with a direct quote from an anti carriage horse activist sight. and attempt to use it as proof or fact. Neither of which it is.
Do you honestly believe just because someone says all the horses go to slaughter or their living conditions are inhumane it must be true ? Why not rely on independent thought instead of being a shill to another persons propaganda ? That's all you are to them just another lemming blindly pushing their motives without question.
Hey Debbie the Ocean is Purple .. pst pass it on.
Gee, thanks for the fact about the ocean, didn't know that. As true as all the other crap you spew, I suppose. Must get back to "my little pony" Chao
LOL, ciao Debbie
Read the comments on that page and learn something, Debbie.
This was an informative resource for people to review! Thank you.