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Fellowship Of Friends/Pathway To Presence Discussion – Part 97 September 24, 2010Posted by fofblogmoderator in Uncategorized.
Welcome to the newest page of the Fellowship of Friends/Pathway To Presence Discussion.
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For more information check Rick Ross and Steven Hassan.
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- 1. Incognito - September 24, 2010
It is my opinion that most people here on the blog confuse several different aspects of the whole situation: the Fellowship (as a body of people), its founder, and their own mindset. True, many come to the FoF because there is a Teacher. Now, both common sense and the Fourth way books tell us to verify it for oneself. If one does, then this is the right place for her/him. If one doesn't, one still gets a chance to socialize and see maybe there are other things that could be got from this place. After you satisfied – or did not satisfy – your curiousity, you leave, just like you would leave any other place/company/club/political party/etc.
BUT if you can't think for yourself, then it does not matter if its the Fellowship, the Republican party or the street corner, you will be getting lessons until you learn. And what you learn is taking responsibility for your life and not transferring it onto your parents, your guru, your government, your TV host, or the street hustler. Even if this is the only lesson that can be learnt in Robert Burton's Fellowship, it is enough to be grateful for. Especially if all you paid for it was some cash (by the way, all the transactions were honest, weren't they?) and some time spent in an artificially decorated environment.
If the latter applies to you, then congratulations! perhaps, you have finally learnt to remember yourself :))).
- 2. Rudy - September 25, 2010
Right, Incognito. Also, the 4th way system works if you use it. But many people didn't really seem to study it or use it. That's why those people were and are victims of RB's hypnotizing "black magic". But ultimately everybody is responsible for him or her self. Especially in a 4th way school or group.
- 3. Rudy - September 25, 2010
Also, Incognito, it was not just "some cash". I paid a high price for understanding the human condition.
- 4. another name - September 25, 2010
Dear Mr Incognito.
Again you sound so reasonable and yet….
The people who came from different countries, burned their bridges and thought they would find a real school and were let into a bedroom with somebody who wanted bizarre sex? Supposed to be a sacred act for the GODS?
To not connect with your family, to pay more, work more to become more conscious?
The girls dealing with heavy infections…? What kind of consequences will this give in the future?
The kids who were told they can not have A, B or C and the parents going to expensive dinners with Robert? What kind of message was given to those children?
Etc. etc, etc.
Rudy, yes the price was high and yes many people questions and thought they did not get it which was told to them/us….Your lower self…..etc.
It is not who is right, there are many truths and on an emotional level, we will all make our verifications or already made our verifications.
Enjoy your life.
- 5. Rudy - September 25, 2010
Shit happens, another name, including in groups. All processes happen even in a school. It makes no difference. You still need to accept and take responsibility for what happened to yourself.
- 7. GoldenVeil - September 25, 2010
1. Incognito
"Especially if all you paid for it was some cash (by the way, all the transactions were honest, weren't they?) and some time spent in an artificially decorated environment."
Cash that ended up being used to buy deluxe holidays, jewelry, and fine clothing, dining and wine for Robert Burton and his harem of young, handsome male traveling companions, some of whose teaching payments are waived. Meanwhile, the unattractive, older, male and female students work hard, and their children do with less to support this vain glorious lifestyle of the "Teacher."
Wake up, little Susie!
The real lesson: There's a sucker born every minute, and in the words of Robert Burton according to I'll Never Tell, also "a suckee."
- 8. WhaleRider - September 25, 2010
If "shit happens", presumably in an unintended way, then it strikes me as odd that you would suggest a person still needs to "accept and take responsibility" for something that "happened" to them, something for which they have no control over.
"All processes happen even in a school. It makes no difference."
That's exactly the point.
There really is no difference between what you call a "school" and life, although those promoting cult membership strive to make you believe otherwise.
- 11. angleman - September 26, 2010
- 12. angleman - September 26, 2010
- 15. 2010 - September 26, 2010
Whatever post #12 was linked to is now gone. Anybody have a copy?
- 16. 2010 - September 26, 2010
I figured out the problem. The link on post 12 is incomplete. You need to copy the entire link and then paste it in your browser.
- 17. nige - September 26, 2010
9 brucelevy
So, if we can get 'coverage' on other 'sex-scandals', why not some 'time on REB and his boys'?…..Nigel.
- 18. X-ray - September 27, 2010
17. nige – September 26, 2010
9 brucelevy
So, if we can get 'coverage' on other 'sex-scandals', why not some 'time on REB and his boys'?…..Nigel.
Good point, Nige.
- 19. angleman - September 27, 2010
- 20. angleman - September 27, 2010
- 21. angleman - September 27, 2010
- 22. silentpurr - September 27, 2010
angleman, please lower the case, you appear to be shouting.
- 23. angleman - September 28, 2010
ok but in the mean time, just squint
- 25. Ames Gilbert - September 28, 2010
Incognito (#97-1),
Smug much?
You can learn these lessons much cheaper and quicker elsewhere––psychologically, financially, and physically.
One of the main themes of this blog.
- 26. WhaleRider - September 29, 2010
Sexual Abuse Accuser Calls Ga. Pastor 'Predator'
ATLANTA (AP)– One of the young men accusing mega-church Bishop Eddie Long of coercing him into a sexual relationship told a TV interviewer that he loved the pastor and considered him a father figure, but still called him a "predator" and a "monster."
"I loved him and I'm always going to have love for the things he taught us, but how he left us hurt worse than anything I ever felt in my life," Jamal Parris told Atlanta's Fox TV affiliate WAGA in an interview broadcast Tuesday. "This man turned his back on us when he had no more need for us. That's not a father, that's a predator."
Parris, 23, is one of four men suing the TV preacher in state court, claiming that he abused his "spiritual authority" and gave them cars, clothes, cash and trips to lure them into sexual relationships while they were teen members of New Birth Missionary Baptist Church in suburban Atlanta.
Parris described an ongoing emotional struggle.
"I cannot get the sound of his voice out of my head and I cannot forget the smell of his cologne and I cannot forget the way he made me cry many nights when I drove in his cars on the way home," Parris said. "I'm not able to take enough showers to wipe the smell of him off my body."
A spokesman for Long referred calls to an attorney, who was not immediately available Tuesday night.
When a reporter approached Parris outside a convenience store in Colorado, he at first was reluctant to speak. Then he told WAGA that Long exploited his dreams for a father figure in exchange for sexual favors.
During services at his church Sunday, Long turned to biblical terms to portray himself as an underdog but didn't outright deny the allegations.
"I feel like David against Goliath," said Long. "In fact, just yesterday I went out and bought a statue of David for my garden."
- 27. Ames Gilbert - September 29, 2010
I am curious about folks like Incognito who post here about taking personal responsibility for their situation, but don't mention the responsibility of others.
Ultimately it may be true that one has to take responsibility for oneself, and taking stock of where one is, in every aspect and with every sense, is part of that¬—and indeed, is the essence of self–remembering. Where one is, right now, is one's personal Truth, and in that respect the concept of anyone else 'taking responsibility' doesn't figure. But, we are not isolated, and the rest of the world does intrude.
But, beyond the smugness and condescension that Incognito and others openly display, it seems to me lurks the implication that these people are isolated individuals who have come through the Fellowship of Friends experience relatively unscathed, leaving no ripples and no wake. These individual have taken what is necessary for their 'evolution' or at least got a bundle of 'lessons learned' and a square deal. Just like the Fourth Way proposes, on one level, and following the pithy advice of Gurdjieff, "it is essential to make a profit". Also implied is that the person came for the right reasons, stayed just the right amount of time, and left at the perfect moment, AND that anyone else who came for the wrong reasons, at a different season or stayed for a different time is, ergo, a fool at best. Let's call this point of view "Gregitis", in honor of Greg Goodwin, the supreme revisionist.
I propose that the reality is different. And that without detracting from the idea of personal responsibility (although, BTW, this is only applicable to someone who can 'do'), I suggest that there are other areas of responsibility that are part of the equation, and that in fact, in a Fourth Way milieu (I'm not going to honor the FoF by suggesting that it is in any way it is a Fourth Way 'School', at least according to my understanding), these other areas are very important. To start with, how about the idea that one has to put one's trust in the purported teacher? Isn't that a central idea in the System? Isn't that in fact the key to making 'progress', of advancement, of 'evolving', according to G and O? Doesn't' that mean that, although one is responsible for making the 'decision to work', one is required to put oneself in the hands of someone who one trusts to make some very important decisions for one, in order to bring about changes that cannot occur under any other circumstances?
So there is a primary example of the division of responsibilities. It is not just up to the Brian Sislers of the world to take responsibility for themselves, but also for the Robert Earl Burtons who imagine that they are demigods who can propose and dispose of the Brian Sislers without compunction or mercy. But it goes further. Burton's enablers are also responsible, they have the opportunity to warn, but turn aside. In fact, the whole organization is responsible, because they are all complicit in normalizing the situation, and even members of outlying centers are in on the gig by contributing cash to Burton and paying the salaries of the enablers.
[That is what is so dangerous about the Fourth Way—as it has been presented to us. It is custom designed for charlatans like Horn or Burton to insert themselves as qualified teachers and take advantage of the demand for trust. Add the 'crazy wisdom' meme to the mix, and you have a situation ripe for exploitation.]
Hey, Incognito (and all of you suffering from Gregitis), you got through the experience intact and unharmed, you made your 'profit', and it was a good deal for you, huh? I suggest otherwise, and that your expertise at 'self–remembering' is not as complete as you imply. I suggest that you swam in a sea of corruption, spiritual and mental, and that you swallowed quite a bit before you crawled out on the other side. And whatever you swallowed became part of you at a cellular level, just like food. You might want to re-examine yourself a little more closely as you 're-assemble your parts'. I think you'll find that your history is as much part of yourself as anything else, that it is part of what makes you 'you', and that you cannot just jettison it by an act of will. You took part, even if you thought you were just an impartial observer the entire time (which I doubt). You contributed to the problems of others, and some of the shit rubbed off on you. And, IMHO, part of 'taking personal responsibility' is to not try to get rid of it by rubbing it off on others.
- 29. another name - September 29, 2010
Dear All
For the gregitis infected "friends".
The fire on the property was influence C fault? Mowing after 10 am. The fire dep. and the county will accept the excuse of "not able" to pay the bill because it was Influence C's will?
Thanks for the great posts.
Maybe the blog could be called search for conscientious.
Back to Hono 'oponopono
- 30. nige - September 29, 2010
27 Ames Gilbert
28 brucelevy
Although I have to admit I was not very near the centre of the things that were going on in the Fellowship to which you allude, I can say that I had 'inklings' (would you call it a budding conscience?) about the activities of Burton and his enablers that I would hear about. I somewhat 'ploughed my own furrow' in the Fellowship, as a student who never made very much money (either in England or the USA) and certainly did not keep to the rules about not mingling with 'life people' and their activities. All I can say is that I was financially 'fleeced' and ran up debts of over $30,000 before my release from the FOF. I think people like 'Incognito' were probably financially capable of staying in the higher echelons of the FOF and had probably learned in their life-jobs to 'kick corporate ass' I think 'Incognito' is actually referring to 'being good, talking good, looking good' in the FOF when he/she talks about taking responsibility…..Nigel.
- 31. nige - September 29, 2010
27 Ames Gilbert
"came for the right reasons"…..
I came to the FOF for the purpose of achieving higher states of consciousness. I only have to stop taking my anti-psychotic medication for 3 days and I will be as 'high as a kite'. HEY! BUT I WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO LEAD A PRACTICAL LIFE!!!!!…..Nigel.
- 32. McMikey - September 30, 2010
Honestly, you guys (especially Ames & Bruce), what's wrong with you?
The rules are pretty goddamn simple & straightforward:
Worship Robert Burton or Leave.
What is the problem?
- 33. WhaleRider - September 30, 2010
Don't you mean pimp for Burton or leave?
Sure, for those who lack a conscience, acting only out of pure self-interest, it is pretty simple and straight forward as you say.
You are either getting what you paid for or you go somewhere else. From that perspective there is no problem either way.
For those unfortunate enough to have developed a gnawing conscience or had one before being exposed to the unhealthy machinations of the FOF rape factory, well, that's another matter all together.
The combination of apathy, fear, and shame is the problem.
Isn't it odd that there are those who claim that one must take responsibility for what "happens" to one at the hands of another, yet at the same time abdicate any responsibility to society for having consciously and intentionally built and support the mechanical means to convey to Burton's mouth a seemingly endless narcissistic supply of boy toys?
If you shun the FOF just like they will shun you, then you are in fact enabling Burton's socipathic behavior. That is exactly what Burton wants.
Shunning is form of denial.
- 34. quorum - September 30, 2010
"The rules are pretty goddamn simple & straightforward:
Worship Robert Burton or Leave.
What is the problem?"
Better to ask "What are the problems?" plural. There are several problems, all of them described on the GF site and here on the blog.
But there is never anything "straightforward" when deception is involved. That's the entire point of deception and lying, which is at the heart of the entire enterprise — to keep things anything BUT straightforward. Were Burton actually "straightforward," he would tell people from the start, "I'll be having sex with hundreds of you, particularly young males in the group, and if any of you state your objections, you will be removed the group. If you stop having sex with me or refuse sex, I will reject you summarily and you will be cast to the outer circle, and in some cases asked to leave."
How many people would join the group if he laid out the truth in such a "straightforward" way?
BUt this is just one example. The organization could be much more transparent about several other aspects, too… the money, the bizarre ideas that aren't shared with people from the start, the predictions of catastrophes, the ark, the number of people who leave the group, the lawsuits, and more.
- 36. GoldenVeil - October 1, 2010
Verily, you are so erudite, Wouldn't You Like to Know!
Thank you for the quotations and interpretations, thoughts and explanations.
Golden Veil
- 37. Julian Cummings - October 1, 2010
Just stumbled in here. Haven'y thought about the Fellowship in years, then my girlfriend asked me something yesterday, and here I am.
I went into the Fellowship's site and was amazed to see so many familiar faces still stuck in the same place.
Well, in case you guys are reading this…
No, I didn't sleep with Robert, but his attempts on me did contribute to my leaving the Fellowship.
What else did? here it is…
One thing I didn't get a chance to share before leaving. As some one you may recall I was a server at Robert's dinners.
There was this One particular dinner, when some older heavy-set German person who knew quiet a bit about wines (trying to comply with the no-name restrictions) made some very abusive Pro Nazi remarks. Not neo-nazi but the old-original-nazi.
I was amazed to look at Robert and see him smile, kind of embarrassed, but still allowing this to go on for a few minutes.
I will never forgive myself for not reacting with full force in this situation (I used to be a Vineyard Worker).
There have to be limits even in a cult and even when the guru is "present".
I wish I did take responsibility, and was tossed out that very night instead of driving away under the cover of darkness 2 weeks later.
ah… if I could only get a 2nd shot at this scenario.
- 39. quorum - October 1, 2010
I'm not going to pretend that I know exactly what the point was in 35, or why GoldenVeil finds it interesting. There's a lot of fear, inner tension, and self-loathing in many of the ideas of Gurdjieff. This idea that "man" is predisposed to anything negative is a part of that — whether it's "mechanicality" or the idea of "kundabuffer". But if we start believing it, perhaps it becomes true in certain ways: We are asleep, we are mechanical, we can't do, we are powerless.
A lot depends on our view of the universe: Do we believe it's a negative place with traps around every corner, and horrible fates awaiting everyone who has not found the one truth and "the way"? Is it a world and a universe of shortages, where only a few can be saved? And where we can pat ourselves and each other on the back and congratulate ourselves for being in the right place?
Or do we see the world and the universe differently — a universe of abundance…
A lot of what opens us up to ideas that present a negative view of people and the world is the fear of death. We want to believe that we are safe, and it helps us to believe we're safe when someone tells us we are, and that others aren't — whether it's a religion, a cult, a book about the "Fourth Way", theories about food for the moon, or a sense of calm that we've found the right path while others continue down the road to destruction.
While not rejecting all outright, I've made several healing strides after the FOF by taking a more critical view not only of Burton and the Fellowship of Friends, but also the ideas of Gurdjieff and Ouspensky. Diagrams and multi-syllabic words and severe proclamations about the supposed nature of "man" do not indicate truth or wisdom or knowledge. In fact, in many instances these ideas obscure the truth, and obscure our understanding, and prevent us from finding an inner wisdom that was there all along.
- 40. nige - October 1, 2010
38 quorum
Part of what helps me to cope with my life (not including the help I have to get from my anti-psychotic medication and the mental health services) is the pure joy I receive from teaching and fabricating in my precious metal art-form. I found it two years before joining the FOF, it continued through the FOF, I lost it for a while as a main-stay in my life but now I have the blessing of a full-time self-employed business. Maybe I have 30 good years still left in which to pursue it – one way or another it helps me "prepare for my terminus", as Whitman would say it. I hope others find joy in their work and not just a money-grubbing nightmare…..Nigel.
- 41. WhaleRider - October 1, 2010
IMO, Gurdjieff's saying, "always make a profit" in one's work isn't necessarily such great advice, and smacks of an imbalance in a person of self-interest vs. selflessness.
It is the psychopathic, socipathic and narcissistic personalies that are completely self-interested and geared to always make a profit, much like corporations must do for shareholders at any cost…
Usually I avoid people like this or limit my time with them, people who seem to be always working an angle for themselves in an opportunistic way.
I prefer and gravitate toward win-win situations with others. Often when dealing with children, I find it is healthy to be flexible and model both "selfish", individualistic behavior and polite, "self-less" behavior as healthy tools for life.
- 42. nige - October 1, 2010
Thinking about this 'fear of death' thing and what we can grow to meet our destiny in astral spheres..
"The self by its nature knows itself only. For lack of experience whatever it perceives it takes to be itself. Battered, it learns to look out and to live alone. When right behaviour becomes normal, a powerful inner urge makes it seek its source. The candle of the body is lighted and all becomes clear and bright." – Nisargadatta
"The Self, the Master or Real 'I' is Essence grown up" – G I Gurdjieff
The problem is, Burton has twisted this whole idea of Essence, by telling people they may have a 'city essence' or a 'classical essence' or any such rubbish, just to make them feel smug about themselves. To be true, there is something in us that knows about our selves and the true course of our lives – this is Essence and it knows when it is being fed by the right influences.
Can you not imagine how many times REB has stated to well-heeled members – "Dear, you have finance in Essence". Shall we call him – 'Bullshit Burton'?…..Nigel.
- 43. nige - October 1, 2010
40 WhaleRider
I was just wondering, WhaleRider, am I correct in assuming that your life's work is within the mental health sphere? I have had to be an antagonist to your knowledge in past posts, but would really like to hear how your work deals not only with the 'merely disturbed' but with full-blown sociopaths, psychopaths and those with personality disorders. How do YOU actually rate BURTON on the mental-health scale? Where do you see his flaws – things that could actually be held against him, should some sort of justice be brought to bear with him and all the enablers of the FOF? I hope I am not being too intrusive…..Nigel.
- 45. GoldenVeil - October 1, 2010
37. Julian Cummings
What you shared with our discussion group is so typical, I think, of the kind of suffering many of us experienced while in the Fellowship of Friends / Pathway to Presence, the suprematist judgmental criticism of "life people" or in this case, perhaps anti-semetic remarks, hypocrisy of 'The Teacher,' self judgment, hiding one's real opinions and feelings, and finally, running away under darkness. It is so sad to think that this ridiculous scenario was your real life. But I am very glad that you found your way out of the gilded prison / lunatic asylum. Welcome!
- 46. Nancy Gilbert - October 2, 2010
41. WhaleRider
I think you can take the idea of "always make a profit" in different ways. Your interpretation is one possible meaning. For me this saying of 'G's' is akin to this quote of Joseph Campbell's: "The demon that you can swallow gives you its power". Every situation in life, including the one's that bring us pain and suffering, both real and imagined, can become a window of opportunity for growth if we can allow things to be as they are rather than resisting, in all its myriad forms. That is my experience, anyway.
That is not to say that I am advocating seeking suffering or allowing oneself to remain in harmful situations for the good of one's evolution, as RB seemed to teach. To me that is a gross distortion of the idea of 'intentional suffering'.
- 47. Rudy - October 2, 2010
27. Ames Gilbert wrote:
"to start with, how about the idea that one has to put one's trust in the purported teacher? Isn't that a central idea in the System? Isn't that in fact the key to making 'progress', of advancement, of 'evolving', according to G and O? Doesn't' that mean that, although one is responsible for making the 'decision to work', one is required to put oneself in the hands of someone who one trusts to make some very important decisions for one, in order to bring about changes that cannot occur under any other circumstances?"
Yes, although for many that "someone" was not always the teacher personally, but the general being of the students that were in one's play.
But what is your point anyway? Giving up self will is a temporary thing, until one knows for oneself. And there is only self -initiation; no-one can know for another, and you yourself will know when you get there.
"That is what is so dangerous about the Fourth Way—as it has been presented to us. It is custom designed for charlatans like Horn or Burton to insert themselves as qualified teachers and take advantage of the demand for trust. Add the 'crazy wisdom' meme to the mix, and you have a situation ripe for exploitation.]"
No, it is not custom designed for charlatans, but there is nothing to prevent charlatans from using it like black magic. That is the nature of the game, and the risk of having it out in the open.
"Hey, Incognito (and all of you suffering from Gregitis), you got through the experience intact and unharmed, you made your 'profit', and it was a good deal for you, huh?"
I for one say it was not a good deal, the price was very high, but I accept the fact that this was my play to get to where I am and that it had to happen this way. It manifested in the only possible way it could according to my being and the circumstances.
And I only swallowed what I thought was good, according to my own discrimination. When there was too much nonsense and garbage too swallow and too little "daily bread" I left, like many others who came to that point.
Ames and others, you can not possibly know the truth about every individual that passed through the FoF so don't talk as if you do.
- 48. Rudy - October 2, 2010
25. Ames Gilbert – September 28, 2010
You can learn these lessons much cheaper and quicker elsewhere––psychologically, financially, and physically.
You should have told me 30 years ago.
- 49. nige - October 2, 2010
46/47 Rudy
We are all talking from our individual experience of the FOF. I am quite relieved that we can share, rather than bicker about, how it was, rather than how it should have been. Many of us have said there was something missing in our lives that caused us to 'search for the miraculous' and that has been the subject of many of the links to experts on 'cult psychology' that have been posted.
I am not sure, however, that those in the FOF now and those being lured by any amount of promotional literature or websites (do they still use bookmarks?) feel there is much wrong with their 'spiritual lives' or, if they do, are not in a position to make the break from the FOF, for a number of reasons (spouse still in and loving it etc.).
What I feel is that those of us who have left and have survived the 'scars to redemption' and have found some 'true spiritual solidity' HAVE AN OBLIGATION TO RELATE ON THE BLOG ANYTHING THAT MAY HELP OTHERS TO AVOID THE PAIN OF THE FOF EXPERIENCE. Nigel.
- 50. McMikey - October 2, 2010
Join Robert Burton's Merry Fellowship Now!
Make lifelong superficial friends!
Learn to be intentionally insincere!
Realize you own superiority!
What's the worst that could happen?
Waste of time?
Waste of money?
Spiritual retardation?
- 52. another name - October 2, 2010
Ames and others, you can not possibly know the truth about every individual that passed through the FoF so don't talk as if you do.
Please look in the mirror Rudy…are we bickering here?
- 53. another name - October 2, 2010
Dear Nancy, Rudy, Julien and all others. For all of you the following from Terry Real, "How can I get through to you."
There are things you get in a real relationship (can be replaced for school, cult, teacher, friendship note from AN) , and things you do not get. The character of the union is determined by how the two partners manage both aspect of love- the getting and the not getting. Moving into acceptance means moving into grief , without being a victim. You own choice. "I am getting enough in this relationship you say, to make it worth my while to mourn the rest." And mourn we do. Real love is not for the faint of heart. What we miss in our relationships (can be replaced for school, cult, teacher, friendship note from AN) we truly miss. The pain of it does not, and need not, go away. It is like dealing with a loss.
I object when people especially therapist talk about "resolving grief", as if grief could ever be compliant. We humans do not "resolve"grief; we live with it. The pain of our losses recedes, overtime, and we get on with our lives. But periodically one may well feel the chill hand on the heart- what we miss, our mortality- its sudden grip like a sharp intake of a breath. It is important for us and we are left standing. It is okay. Nothing's wrong. It is just a natural part of things. Dead leaves underfoot. A clear autumn evening, the black sky like a vault, the vapor of our own breath in the air, a surprise. "Oh' we say. it will be winter soon again. It is growing dark early And we burrow deep into our clothes for a moment, glad to be heading home.
Terry Real from his book "How can I get through to you."
Grief/ mourning is an aspect part of life which is not very popular. It has been part of my healing after leaving the fellowship. I thought and hoped to find a better world and people and worthwhile living with and for….
I still can not resolve my question why this planet has so much hurt and still there is. I wanted to diminish hurt and pain….Well I am back to new beginning and the beginning is not of a new born. It is a beginning with a lot of history with which I will live with till I die, and for all of you, yes it hurts and it is my pain. My grief, my mourning.
Can you sit with me and "our" morning? Can you be and let it be?
Have a great week end as autumn is announcing itself.
- 54. Rudy - October 2, 2010
52. another name – October 2, 2010
Please look in the mirror Rudy…are we bickering here? here?
Please look in the mirror another name…are we bickering here?
- 55. Rudy - October 3, 2010
49. nige – October 2, 2010
What I feel is that those of us who have left and have survived the 'scars to redemption' and have found some 'true spiritual solidity' HAVE AN OBLIGATION TO RELATE ON THE BLOG ANYTHING THAT MAY HELP OTHERS TO AVOID THE PAIN OF THE FOF EXPERIENCE. Nigel.
What I'm saying, Nigel, is that I don't have any pain about that experience. (I was never close to RB) And I'm pretty sure there are others that feel the same. For me the FoF was a healing experience (in the beginning) and I gained a lot.
However, with what I know now I would not recommend the FoF, because when I left it was not what it used to be. As a matter of fact, I think it became the opposite of what it was in the beginning.
- 56. WhaleRider - October 3, 2010
I agree, one cannot profit from allowing oneself to be continually exploited by another to the point of exhaustion, all the while entertaining the delusion that one's ethereal profits are being squirreled away in an off-shore account, conveniently located in the 8th dimension…
And on the dining of demons front, yes I much prefer living freely in the United States of Peace with Myself than hunkered down somewhere in the Balkans dodging bullets while the body politic is at war with itself…
To be honest though, in the most recent worst times of my life during my divorce, I didn't really have the thought of how I would profit from the situation, my focus was just getting through it…how to sustain myself, a day at a time.
Sustainability is my benchmark these days.
It's true that I find myself in a better overall mood when I can take a step back on the not so fun life experiences that happen to me and in retrospect see how I have grown from them despite my suffering at the time.
For me the word "profit" conjures up an image of one person accumulating more than they possibly need, usually at the expense of others and by monopolizing resources, which also usually involves burning a few bridges along the way. That sounds FOFamilar, doesn't it?
Isn't compassion the power you derive from swallowing the demon of always needing to make a profit?
How do I deal with socipathic types of people? …whenever possible, I avoid them.
As far as what I think could be held against Burton were he ever brought to justice…well, here's one person who is eagerly awaiting a bit more climate change in this country around new legislation against the rape of parishioners by clergy. Knowing full well how people like Burton are still in operation gives me a chill. Let's crank up the heat.
- 57. nige - October 3, 2010
55 Rudy
Sorry…..I obviously do/did not know about your experience in the FOF. However, many here are saying their 'path was warped' in various descriptions we have heard. I am actually not sure that it is beneficial to speculate if they would have grown spiritually to where they are now, had they not been in the FOF. Sorry if I sounded antagonistic…..I did not mean to be…..Nigel.
- 58. nige - October 3, 2010
56 WhaleRider
Obviously, I do not know how you were affected by REB, and I do not think I have the right to pry, but you say he is a sociopath and I believe you. In my own 'mental health maze' I have quite slowly come to recognize, through numerous admissions to the asylum, and coming across the same old people in the same old state, is that sociopathy is certainly more prominent than I thought it was…..Nigel.
- 59. quorum - October 3, 2010
Sharon, I definitely like your interpretation of the expression "always make a profit". I don't think that's exactly what "G" meant, though, and your admirable interpretation is definitely not the way the FOF interpreted it. The word "profit" is the word "profit" — there's meaning behind it — and I understand where WhaleRider is coming from when he questions it.
When we set our minds in that way, we spend our time thinking "me" – how can the universe benefit me, what can the universe do for me, what can others do for me, how can I take from them, how can I gain, receive, profit, benefit, and yes – in many cases — even exploit and deceive.
If I send that energy out, I get a certain energy back. I become separate, disconnected. I develop my ego at the expense of my conscience.
What WhaleRider is suggesting is a different world view from an idea that has been hammered into us in the FOF. Rather than "how can I can make a profit from this experience", there are some world views where the question is very different: "What is it that I can give? How can I serve? How can I help? What is it that I have to offer?"
(Ironically, I've heard people in the FOF say THIS way of seeing the world was "vanity".)
By asking those questions ("What is it that I can give? How can I serve? How can I help? What is it that I have to offer?") and not "how can I profit?", we're sending out a very different energy, and we get a very different energy back. Real "possibilities" exist there.
This way of seeing the world was not entirely missing from the FOF, but it was often smothered, dismissed, and forgotten — especially when it came to sending this energy out to people who are not members of the cult, which would be construed as "casting pearls before swine" in the fof.
Prayer of St. Francis
Lord, make me an instrument of your peace;
where there is hatred, let me sow love;
where there is injury, pardon:
where there is doubt, faith;
where there is despair, hope
where there is darkness, light
where there is sadness, joy
O divine Master,
grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled as to console;
to be understood, as to understand;
to be loved, as to love;
for it is in giving that we receive,
it is in pardoning that we are pardoned,
and it is in dying that we are born to Eternal Life.
- 60. quorum - October 3, 2010
lol… I meant you Nancy, not "Sharon."
- 61. ton - October 3, 2010
56 whalerider
"Isn't compassion the power you derive from swallowing the demon of always needing to make a profit?"
that's the problem with blowjob bob — he thinks only of swallowing the semen instead of the demon.
- 64. X-ray - October 3, 2010
28. brucelevy – September 29, 2010
'From my observations many of the people who "came and went" unscathed, happy in what they received pretty much live, and have lived a life of relative-to-complete self reference. I hesitant to call it sociopathalogical because I guess there are degrees (to give one the benefit of the doubt). But it generally includes lack of empathy, conscience and awareness that would extends beyond one's own nose, and what one can "get" for themselves, not counting in any way what was obviously harmful and in full view. To me that's indicative of a serious character flaw.'
I wouldn't give them benefit of doubt, Bruce. They are sociopaths.
- 65. Nancy Gilbert - October 3, 2010
56 WhaleRider and 59 Quorum
I think we are basically on the 'same sheet of music' with this topic, and any difficulty with shared understandings is largely semantic. I made my comments mostly from the point of view of the personal and more internal aspects of this phrase less than the external, as in taking advantage of others weaknesses to make a personal profit (see the new movie 'Wall Street, Money Never Sleeps' for big time profiting at the expense of others).
I think that how we approach this topic of 'making a profit' largely depends on our personal psychology and experience, and what we see as necessary and useful for us to become more aware, free and compassionate. It is generally my nature to be of service, to want to help others and it is so ingrained that it can and has become a fault. Isn't this part of what led me and many others to give our all, or close to it, to the supposed 'greater good' of the FoF and to RB, sometimes to the point of being self-destructive? What I needed to aim for was to balance this wish to serve and help with the wish to become responsible for myself and to actually see another and what was needed. I think this topic segways into the area of 'the three lines of work' and the Fourth Way idea that the three lines should be as balanced as possible, as well as the question: "what is the nature of help?".
- 66. silentpurr - October 3, 2010
The 'best' thing about the Fellowship is graduation. If you were a conscientious seeker of the truth then graduation only helps you the more. Graduated students profit from having 'paid in advance'. That's your profit. Seeing yourself.
- 67. silentpurr - October 3, 2010
– and Bruce, isn't the pope celibate? Perhaps even a virgin?
- 68. quorum - October 4, 2010
I like your ample use of the of the word "balance." That's a key thing, because cults are imbalanced — diseased.
Using different words, there's:
Helping and serving others.
Helping your community and society as a whole.
Helping yourself — trying to grow and learn throughout your life.
In the FOF, the "third line of work" omits anything outside the closed group. It's about "work for the school" only. And actually it's not even work "for the school" but instead is based on serving the whims and pleasures of the cult leader who has no regard for the greater good of the community or society as a whole. So it's more than a little imbalanced. It's pretty sick. Society is something to exploit and take advantage of. And with this kind of "third line of work," there's also blatant disregard for the welfare of those within the group.
Members fall into a number of different groups — those who are exploited, those who help in the exploitation, those who fit into both groups, and those who accept neither option. That last group leaves or is booted out.
By the way, the Fourth Way's "three line of works" has always made sense to me for the most part, but I think it's interesting that the "work on oneself" part is listed as the "FIRST line of work." Rhetorical question — why the need to place a number on it?
More naturally, it's an unordered list. Nothing needs to come first, second, third. It's not "semantics" — words meant everything to G. and O. So "first" means "first." I still say we can re-examine some of these ideas, which have become solidified in our attitudes to a large degree mostly due to repetition. Big words and numbers and diagrams can create the illusion of authority and truth, but do not necessarily describe truthful ideas.
I sense the Fourth Way is still one of those "sacred cows" — the last bastion of brainwashing in the FOF. It was rarely examined closely with any kind of real scrutiny (forget the nonsense that is currently being professed). The difficult questions are always left unasked. If our "Greater Fellowship" community can't look at these ideas with more skepticism, that's okay. Many of us may have gained something from the Fourth Way. But I think resistance to questions about the Fourth Way is the same energy, the same resistance to seeing the truth about the FOF and about Burton. Again, I do not reject all, but I definitely have found some healing and self-help in questioning these ideas more closely, and identifying concepts as beliefs which in the past I thought I had "verified" and knew and understood.
The word "profit" is the word "profit." He meant it exactly as it sounds. He didn't say "always find a way to learn and grow from your experiences." The word profit is very telling. It has meaning.
- 69. WhaleRider - October 4, 2010
"It is generally my nature to be of service, to want to help others and it is so ingrained that it can and has become a fault.
Isn't this part of what led me and many others to give our all, or close to it, to the supposed 'greater good' of the FoF and to RB, sometimes to the point of being self-destructive?"
I can certainly empathize with you there.
I definitely feel now these so many years later as I did then that it was an unhealthy and self-destructive act to allow myself to be exploited by Burton. Retaining my dignity is much more important to me now than giving up my will.
- 70. nige - October 4, 2010
"Angels" (Robbie Williams)
I sit and wait
does an angel contemplate my fate
and do they know
the places where we go
when we´re grey and old
´cos I´ve been told
that salvation lets their wings unfold
so when I'm lying in my bed
thoughts running through my head
and I feel that love is dead
I'm loving angels instead
and through it all she offers me protection
a lot of love and affection
whether I'm right or wrong
and down the waterfall
wherever it may take me
I know that life won't break me
when I come to call she won't forsake me
I'm loving angels instead
when I'm feeling weak
and my pain walks down a one way street
I look above
and I know ill always be blessed with love
and as the feeling grows
she breathes flesh to my bones
and when love is dead
I'm loving angels instead
and through it all she offers me protection
a lot of love and affection
whether I'm right or wrong
and down the waterfall
wherever it may take me
I know that life won't break me
when I come to call she won't forsake me
I'm loving angels instead
- 71. Jomo Piñata - October 4, 2010
Responding to Ames, you wrote:
No, it is not custom designed for charlatans
The so-called "fourth way" has an authoritarian pyramidal structure. It's right there in the books. The people with higher numbers attached to them ("men" nos. 5, 6, 7) have the power. They "teach." "Men" with lower numbers attached to them ("men" no. 4, or those aspiring to be "men" no. 4) "submit" their "will" to the "will" of "men" nos. 5, 6, 7. Words of this nature are right there in the Ouspensky books, where we read them to have come out of the mouth of Gurdjieff.
The authoritarian pyramidal structure means that power is ultimately concentrated in one or at most several people. It is an advertisement that guru positions are available. It is the sociopaths that are going to be applying for those positions.
So, it's custom designed for sociopaths. Which means it's custom designed for charlatans.
- 72. WhaleRider - October 4, 2010
I totally agree with Jomo.
The so-called fourth way is custom designed for charlatans, by dear Waston, because it was custom designed by charlatans.
You have to ask yourself, what would a man pay for his soul?
Now it doesn't take a rocket scientist to get how a person could be exploited by first convincing them that they don't actually have the commodity of a soul (the nature of which cannot be proven or disproven anyway) and you are the only person in the entire world who can help them acquire one, even though they won't really know if they have one no matter how long they work at it until after they die at the end of their life.
You could create a whole flock of sarmoung worker bees that way, who go out and do all the work of making a living for you while you get to futz around back in the hive, having sex with anyone you want.
Burton has convinced his followers they lack basic self-awareness and only his method can help them acquire it.
Apparently Gurdjieff was not opposed to dressing the sparrow of religion in the color of a canary and fraudulently selling it to those who are fooled by appearances either.
Taking advantage of other people's weaknesses to make a profit can qualify socipathic behavior.
Ask Bernie Madoff.
- 73. James McLemore - October 4, 2010
Jomo Pinata and WhaleRider – Thanks for your posts
Even as recently as a few years ago, and even though I had not used the Fourth Way concepts or language for twenty-some-odd years, I still sometimes entertained thoughts that there were useful things in that system. I have come to the conclusion that I was very likely mistaken.
I would now say that even if there are a few useful starting places for an internal investigation, I think they are so buried (especially in the FOF) amongst so many misconceived and outright erroneous and misleading ideas; – ideas that will only keep those who attempt to use them spinning in circles, and that the whole thing has the possibility of becoming even worse than a dead-end for anyone who truly wishes to acquire what could be termed 'self knowledge'. As WhaleRider just said, it begins with teaching that people lack something that is supposedly intrinsic to their very being, and that for the right sorts of payments, the system and, of course, some 'higher being' will somehow fix, help you grow, or re-install what was missing. From that starting point, what good can come? Although we may or may not be in touch with all of it, nothing is missing from who we are. If you start with an idea that somehow infers that we truly are a separate and somehow defective person, which is no different than being some sort of 'poor miserable sinner', where could one go, but deeper into a maze? Almost from top to bottom The Fourth Way system is a teaching of duality which then pretends to point towards some magical single 'presence'. The way in which it is constructed appears to produce an even more reified position of what I would now think of as the illusion of separation. It is a bit like instead of showing you that something may be a mirage, it instead pretends to give you tools to remove the make-believe water.
Although I have suspicions similar to your own, I have no clear idea, nor can I tell for sure if the Fourth Way was intended to mislead and was 'custom designed' to do so, but I agree wholeheartedly that it almost cannot fail to have that effect, especially in the hands of someone like an Alex Horn or a Robert Burton.
- 74. Rudy - October 5, 2010
71. Jomo Piñata – October 4, 2010
From what you are saying I would conclude that you think that there are no real teachers, only charlatans.
I learned in the FoF that anyone can be your teacher.
72. WhaleRider – October 4, 2010
I totally agree with Jomo.
Whalerider, you have totally missed the boat.
- 75. quorum - October 5, 2010
Rudy, I didn't have that impression at all from Jomo Piñata's comments.
Did any ideas of the "Fourth Way" make you a little skeptical when you first read them or heard about them? Or did you accept them based on the authority figure(s) who presented them to you? Have you ever gone back to re-examine the ideas? Or is there no need for that any longer?
That's true that teachers and lessons are everywhere, which is one of the reason that many people leave behind religions and cults. Regarding the missing of boats, which "boat" are you referring to? Not every boat is taking you where you need to go. Some boats take you way off course, or worse… Not such a bad idea to miss those boats.
- 76. Ames Gilbert - October 5, 2010
Rudy (97-47), you freely quote me (and you're welcome) in order to make various points, so why not complete the job and quote where I claim to know the truth about every person who passed through?
And, (97-48), thirty years ago I was in no position to warn you, I was two years into my FoF experience and still in thrall. When I did leave, I told as many people as I could as clearly as I could my reasons for doing so, and sent out 120 copies of a farewell letter (previously posted on this blog). I also wrote another kind of letter to every person on the FoF Board, and enclosed all the documents I could find with those letters. But having personally caught Girard Haven in the act of removing literature he deemed dangerous from the lodge mailboxes earlier on, I think it likely that some of my mail never reached its intended destination.
Getting back to 'right now', it is not too late to warn others about the dangers and futility of joining, and not too late to encourage people who are open to the possibility that they are in the wrong place, to leave. I acknowledge my limited influence and power; nevertheless that is what I choose to do.
- 77. another name - October 5, 2010
Getting back to 'right now', it is not too late to warn others about the dangers and futility of joining, and not too late to encourage people who are open to the possibility that they are in the wrong place, to leave.
Thanks Ames
Patriarchy is over.
I hope….
- 78. Jomo Piñata - October 5, 2010
You wrote:
From what you are saying I would conclude that you think that there are no real teachers, only charlatans.
I learned in the FoF that anyone can be your teacher.
Don't you think "teacher" has a special meaning in the so-called "fourth way"? A "teacher" in that sense is someone to whom one relinquishes "self-will,"i.e., you do what they say, even against your better judgment? It's integral to the pyramidal system. "Fourth way schools" are not, according to the books, democracies; they are, by blueprint, not egalitarian. There are those who direct, and those who submit.
And "real teacher"? Who knows what you mean by that.
- 79. silentpurr - October 5, 2010
I don't believe Gurdjieff or Ouspensky ever referred to themselves as 'conscience beings'.
- 80. Rudy - October 5, 2010
76. Ames Gilbert
I read your post #27 again and you do not explicitly state it as such. It was just the general taste that I got at that time from reading it. But I may have been a little identified, did not read certain nuances well and took it personally.
Maybe I was lucky, I don't know, but I do think that I came out relatively unscathed, if I compare myself to many of the stories here. There maybe victims of the FoF, but I certainly don't consider myself among them. I already had a discussion about this some pages ago and I noticed that this seems hard to believe for some people.
But I agree with trying to warn people about the negative sides of the FoF. As a matter of fact, one of the reasons that I left was that it was clear to me that I could no longer set myself to put my energy into attracting new students.
By the way, I always interpreted the idea to "always make a profit" as the transformation of negative emotions.
Also, you say that you don't think the FoF is a 4th way school. Not anymore, I agree, but to me it certainly was. I don't think that there are any descriptions for what makes a "real" 4th way school. How would you describe what makes a "real" 4th way school anyway? Isn't it all in the eye of the beholder?
And about my remark about "warning me". I just used that to make the point that people's plays manifest in the way they do, because if things could happen differently they would, to paraphrase Mr. Ouspensky. It was actually not directed to you personally, sorry for that misunderstanding.
- 81. Rudy - October 5, 2010
78. Jomo Piñata – October 5, 2010
Don't you think "teacher" has a special meaning in the so-called "fourth way"? A "teacher" in that sense is someone to whom one relinquishes "self-will,"i.e., you do what they say, even against your better judgment?
No, not against your better judgment. I think Ouspensky warned to not go against your own understanding. Relinquishing self -will has to be done with intelligence, and only temporarily, until one understands. And again, I learned in the FoF that anyone can be your teacher.
And men 5,6,7 relates to levels of "emotional Being" not to instinctive power, I think you have a lot of fantasy about it..
And "real teacher"? Who knows what you mean by that.
The opposite of charlatans of course, genuine.
- 82. quorum - October 5, 2010
To submit to — and believe in — an authoritarian power structure, someone must first convince you that you are powerless, weak, incapable, and dependent on an authority figure who can provide the power, strength, and capability you need. In The Fourth Way, Ouspensky starts right there. In numerous places in the first chapter, he hammers home the idea that people "cannot do," and that everything just happens, and so forth. And that they have the illusion that they can do. But to make any real changes in their lives, they need the help of someone who has supposedly attained a higher level. How we can reliably recognize that person in our powerless state, that's never explained.
The book never examines the possibility that the very thought of this creates the reality, or the illusion of this reality. (Your thoughts create your life.) Ouspensky never examines the possibility that it's actually very common for people to feel powerless and weak, and that if there any illusions, the actual illusion is that we see ourselves as powerless and weak — quite the opposite of what he suggests, but also a very real possibility.
Another very important unchallenged premise in the book is that we live in a very bad place in the universe. Numerous diagrams and charts and numbers and big words are presented to describe the Ray of Creation and to imply that we're all basically "screwed" if we don't find ourselves a so-called school.
From both of these ideas — which were not challenged or examined at all in the FOF or in The Fourth Way book — there's the possibility of an authority figure stepping forward to exploit and take advantage. Without those two assumptions — that "one cannot do" and "we live in a very bad place in the universe" — all sorts of strange things can happen, especially if someone convinces us and leads us to believe that we have "verified" these ideas.
- 83. quorum - October 5, 2010
WITH those two assumptions — that "one cannot do" and "we live in a very bad place in the universe" — all sorts of strange things can happen, especially if someone convinces us and leads us to believe that we have "verified" these ideas.
- 84. WhaleRider - October 5, 2010
The opposite of totally missing the boat is to totally pilot your own.
You place value on people and objects, Rudy, you are what makes something real or not is what you are saying, right?
If Burton and his rape factory cult was a real fourth way school of advanced learning to you, so be it.
Who are we to challenge your personal beliefs or first hand experiences? That's your story, and you're sticking to it. You paid the fee, did your tour through the room full of smoke and mirrors, and you saw what you saw.
Let me ask you, if something is indeed real, as you say, wouldn't that also make it, by definition, objectively real for everyone else, too…(like the fact the the world is round) or is real just real for you, the beholder?
…Cuz, typically, what is real or what is held as reality…as opposed to, say, superstition for example, is what the majority of people in any given culture hold collectively as real based upon verifiable experimentation and, in an evolving world, subject to change if and when a new reality is proven so using real facts, that can be verified by multiple sources.
That term gets thrown around a whole lot in the FOF…real this or real that, all based upon subjective experiences only but played up as the objective truth for everyone.
Once upon a time, the moon was out to eat you…
Thanks for your feedback. I am so glad you are here expressing yourself in such a respectful manner, too.
- 85. silentpurr - October 5, 2010
Quorum, Jomo, I never thought of myself as being being powerless and weak.Did you? The 4th way does set one against oneself, but only with care and long observation. For me, Robert became a kind of a distraction from what I wanted to do with my life. His interpretation of 'C influence',that of invisible gods as our helpers working against laziness and all those features which hobble us in unproductive sleep, is where we become dependent.
Robert shifted the 'psychological' of the 4th Way into the 'religious'/devotional of the Fellowship.
It's a slow induction into a belief system that is supported by seemingly intelligent and sane people. Like the crowd surrounding the 3-card-monty-gamer on 42nd street, they are all in it together.
- 86. Jomo Piñata - October 5, 2010
81/Rudy wrote:
And men 5,6,7 relates to levels of "emotional Being" not to instinctive power, I think you have a lot of fantasy about it.
You are talking to me as though you are distinguishing what you mean from what I said. Yet I didn't say anything about "emotional Being" or "instinctive power." So you imagine I mean something, and then tell me that what you have imagined is my fantasy. Ironic, no?
- 87. Jomo Piñata - October 5, 2010
81/Rudy– You wrote:
78. Jomo Piñata – October 5, 2010
Don't you think "teacher" has a special meaning in the so-called "fourth way"? A "teacher" in that sense is someone to whom one relinquishes "self-will,"i.e., you do what they say, even against your better judgment?
No, not against your better judgment.
Rudy, have a look. This is from In Search of the Miraculous:
"The only chance he has during this period is to be controlled by another will which has already been strengthened."
"This is why in school work, which includes the destruction of 'buffers,' a man must be ready to obey another man's will so long as his own will is not yet fully developed. Usually this subordination to another man's will is studied before anything else. I use the word 'studied' because a man must understand why such obedience is necessary and he must learn to obey. The latter is not at all easy. A man beginning the work of self-study with the object of attaining control over himself is accustomed to believe in his own decisions. Even the fact that he has seen the necessity for changing himself shows him that his decisions are correct and strengthens his belief in them. But when he begins to work on himself a man must give up his own decisions, 'sacrifice his own decisions,' because otherwise the will of the man who directs his work will not be able to control his actions."
The point is, subordination to the "will" of another until one has developed "will" is integral to the so-called "fourth way." And who gets to say who has a fully developed will and can dispense with this obedience? The guy who lays claim to the bigger number.
"Against one's better judgment"? Remember, the guy with the smaller number has relinquished the making of decisions for himself in favor of the guy with the bigger number. For him, it is [Mr. Smaller Number's surname] making those decisions, not [Mr. Smaller Number's real 'I']. So even if Mr. Smaller Number feels it's 'his' better judgment, it's really [Mr. Smaller Number's surname]'s attempt to make the decision.
And, of course, that decision-making power must be relinquished, because Mr. Smaller Number doesn't have fully developed will yet. It's really just [Mr. Smaller Number's surname's] attempt to decide for the whole person.
Divide and Conquer. Sociopaths, take notice.
- 88. WhaleRider - October 5, 2010
A guru is by nature a charlatan in that you pay them to masquerade as your inner teacher for you, because, I guess, you are just too busy to take notice of your own.
Wearing the guru mask for others is a great job with many fringe benefits.
The three stages in the evolution of Man are:
1)First you believe in Santa Claus
2)Then you don't believe in Santa Claus
3)Then you become Santa Claus
- 89. quorum - October 6, 2010
silentpurr: "I never thought of myself as being being powerless and weak.Did you?"
(I believe we're thinking along the same lines, but who knows when reaching across these internet pages as two anonymous contributors. Not much of a conversation is it? But definitely a LOT better than anything I experienced in the FOF.)
There's a false premise in the so-called fourth way that most people see themselves as having their act together; i.e., they believe "they can do" and that this is an illusion that they must wake up from in order to awaken. Quite the opposite, I see people as having numerous insecurities, and often we are TAUGHT to have these feelings about ourselves at a young age. Actually, it's particularly the most talented and "attractive" among us who lack confidence. They're just very good at hiding it, and to make up for their feelings of weakness, a person's ego strives for power and control. In reality it already had an inner strength, but began seeking "strength" in superficial ways (starting a cult or seeking a "role" within a cult, for example) while losing track of that strength which already existed within themselves.
The idea that people need to see their own inner powers, strength, and wisdom as an illusion and that they must seek that power in a guru or some other authority figure is one of the sad side-effects of all religions and cults — not just the in the ideas of fourth way and not just in the FOF. The actual illusion is that we are weak and need to "gain" powers and control, and that we need to compete with others for it. It's a world of shortages in this mindset, not a world of abundance. We need to believe in a world of shortages to remain in the FOF and to buy into the FOF sales and marketing schtick.
The root cause of this belief was the fourth way, where Ouspensky frequently described a world where — for example — only a certain amount of knowledge existed. And thus strongly implying that it would disappear if you didn't grab it while you had a chance. The bookmarks — "Gurdjieff Ouspensky Centres Now Accepting Students" — hinted at such a shortage. Act now, while the school is still accepting students. Act now, before The End — before the flood, before the great depression, before World War III, before you lose your opportunity forever, and so on. Life becomes an endless array of potential wrong turns and booby traps, with our weaknesses out to get us — unless of course we join the group, and submit to it's Superstition and Fear.
There are definitley other ways to see the world.
- 90. quorum - October 6, 2010
The world stands out on either side
No wider than the heart is wide;
Above the world is stretched the sky,—
No higher than the soul is high.
-Edna St. Vincent Millay
- 91. WhaleRider - October 6, 2010
Sam Harris on how in a modern moral landscape verifiable facts can indeed inform our values, as opposed to superstitious beliefs based upon fear.
- 92. nige - October 6, 2010
89 quorum
It always seemed to me that, in the FOF, the folks who were revered and seemed to the others to 'be able to do' were those who could make 'shit loads of money' for the 'school' and 'kick corporate/social ass' in the 'school'. They were, obviously, the ones cosseted by REB in meetings/dining experiences/travelling etc. and word soon got around about "if you want to be close to Robert, this is how you have to be". Even though I verified the presence of C-influence in my role, I never really felt close to what the enablers (incorrectly) call the 'inner circle' (more aptly called the 'ass-lickers'. What makes the world go around? Money, sex and power. What greases the wheels of the Great Fellowship of Friends Machine? Money, sex and power…..Nigel.
- 93. nige - October 6, 2010
This should have been true for us in the FOF, but is certainly more true for us now…..
"This above all,- to thine own self be true;
And it must follow, as night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man."
("Hamlet, Prince of Denmark" – William Shakespeare)
- 94. McMikey - October 6, 2010
How dare you accuse the high & the mighty of such low desires? They're not just like the rest of us, are they?
- 95. nige - October 6, 2010
94 McMikey
No – they are not like the rest of us, just trying to find our place in the world…..
"That the mighty play roles on
And that you may contribute something" (Whitman)
What happens in the FOF is that there is the brainwashing/hypnotizing of the 'hoy-palloy' by what have been described as 'enablers', who maintain sway over their minions by promising them God-knows-what at the price of suffering (all sorts of suffering exist in the FOF).
I have often stated on the blog, and will continue to state, if necessary…..
"If you cannot find some kernel of Joy in your Work, you are in the wrong Game or on the wrong Playing Field"…..Nigel.
- 96. nige - October 6, 2010
96 ….and this is not World Ninety-Six – false personality…..
as an addendum to post 95, the Celtic Races believe in the innate goodness of people and things – not Original Sin or any of that Garden of Eden mysoginistic fairy-tale crap…..
Joy in Action
Peace in Friendship
Transformation in Death
(Tod und Verklarung – Brahms)
Love to all true seekers of Truth…..Nigel.
- 97. silentpurr - October 6, 2010
Some 'older students' may feel/think/believe that they have weathered many a storm during their long Fellowship years. I may even know some of them…
For myself, I cannot imagine having spent one minute longer….
- 98. WhaleRider - October 7, 2010
If you are a true seeker of Truth, Nigel, then I am going to challenge your thinking a bit and trust that you can feel the love, too.
"Celtic Races" is a great example of a zombie lie that just won't die and gets told over and over again until we believe it…(like in the FOF)… the meme that the world is made up of different "races" of people.
"The division of the world's peoples into distinct groups – "red," "black," "white" or "yellow" peoples – has became so deeply imbedded in our psyches, so widely accepted, many would promptly dismiss as crazy any suggestion of its falsity.
Yet, that's exactly what this provocative, new three-hour series by California Newsreel claims.
Race – The Power of an Illusion questions the very idea of race as biology, suggesting that a belief in race is no more sound than believing that the sun revolves around the earth."
We all understand firsthand the power of illusions.
- 99. McMikey - October 7, 2010
And yet it does appear that the Sun, Moon & Stars revolve around the earth. It takes a fair amount of education and belief or verification to realize that the earth is not the center of the universe.
"Because the world is round,
It turns me on.
Because the wind is high,
It blows my mind."
– I think I am quoting from Abbey Road
- 100. quorum - October 7, 2010
"And yet it does appear that the Sun, Moon & Stars revolve around the earth. It takes a fair amount of education and belief or verification to realize that the earth is not the center of the universe."
Sure. Still, I doubt that people ages ago looked at the stars and automatically believed the earth was the center of universe — at least not until they were taught this and heard many others state it as obvious fact and truth. At that point, it took more than education and knowledge to help them see the world differently. They also needed some courage.
Friends of mine who never joined the FOF can't understand how in God's name I could possibly believe what I believed that I believed I had verified in the FOF. To them, it's insane. In the same way, I have never understood how people could possibly believe the earth was the center of the universe. I don't think it's because of my superior intelligence that I have trouble seeing it. I was just never taught it, so I never needed to "UN-learn" the idea.
For me, a lot of the healing and strengthening process of leaving the FOF involves the process of unlearning dozens — if not hundreds — of ideas and thought viruses… One of them involves seeing possibilities everywhere I go, and with everyone meet, and in every experience, as opposed to seeing only real possibilities within the confines of a tiny, insignificant and dysfunctional group hiding away in a corner of the earth. It is absolutely unreal what I believed what I believed. Removing this idea that the earth/fof is the center of the universe allowed me to look at the stars — and the earth — with wonder again.
- 101. surelyujest - October 7, 2010
While the Fourth Way has many ideas, some are considered essential. Essential ideas include the need to find a school, the need to submit one's will to a teacher, and the absolute impossibility of "deciding for yourself," and that includes picking and choosing which parts of the System you want to follow, and which parts to discard. The fact is, even the 4th Way fundamentalists ARE picking and choosing. That doesn't mean their work is unsound. It means there is no work, at least as presented by Gurdjieff and Ouspensky.
When it becomes so apparent it can't be denied anymore, it is conceded that G and O were mere gurus running the same tired religious con, with a "scientific" twist: verify! But how can you verify that you have found a person reliable enough, and with enough will, to submit to? Looks like most of us made a pretty egregious error in that fundamental part of the System. So where is the "correct" teacher? Maybe they never existed…
How do you verify you don't have a soul? And that self-remembering attracts magical hydrogens that make you immortal? If these ideas don't sound ridiculous to you, then you should examine yourself, and wonder how and when you became a True Believer, instead of the sincere, verifying student.
If we have to throw out the idea that we don't need teachers because there are none but charlatans, then why should we put any stock in the rest of the 4th Way? We are told, you can't pick and choose, you must follow the Whole System. Then people start picking and choosing, throwing big chunks out, saying this part is obviously wrong. But I believe the rest even more strongly! What happens to a building when you take a large percentage of its foundation away?
And if G and O were just gurus out to make a buck, why listen to anything else they had to say? It is fatally flawed by self-serving, self-interest.
I think many of the True Believers are just modern variations on the Puritans: they are worried that someone, somewhere may be having fun. After all their "efforts," it doesn't seem fair that you don't really have to "do" anything. Waaahhh!!!
- 102. surelyujest - October 7, 2010
100 quorum
"Removing this idea that the earth/fof is the center of the universe allowed me to look at the stars — and the earth — with wonder again."
Exactly. After a while, it seemed that the fourth way was the opposite of that;;that I was becoming an absurd reductionist, thinking that by slapping more and more labels on things, that I was actually understanding them, and people too. I became more and more convinced that I understood the mysteries of life, rather than simply experiencing them.
Just like with the FOF, you can't see how completely indoctrinated in the 4th way you are until you can truly leave it behind. Even these many years later, I continue to marvel with shame and awe at the nonsense I spouted and believed, and imagined I verified.
- 103. WhaleRider - October 7, 2010
"It takes a fair amount of education and belief or verification to realize…"
Isn't this the main problem of the FOF and most cults, education, belief and verification are all rolled in to one?
What occurs in the FOF cult is the process of verifabrication.
There is huge difference between (scholarly) education based upon facts and beliefs.
I could easily prove to you (and others) using evidence and observation that the earth is round and that it revolves around the sun. I could do this no matter what country or society you happen to find yourself in.
You still could believe otherwise, which normally wouldn't be a problem, unless you also had the power to burn at the stake or blow up anyone who disagreed with your belief.
Here's an excerpt from another Sam Harris piece:
"In a progressively more secularize world, it sometimes seems that the only religious people out there are fanatics. And frankly I'm fed up with them. You look into any over the top, cruel, wanton atrocity in the world today and chances are you'll find some scripture spouting nut bar, judging and condemning and punishing and happily killing the innocent, while cloaked in the garb of faith. They preach love, but they practice exclusion and they display a toxic intolerance to different views. I don't know about you, but for me, the very definition of arrogance is someone who presumes to know god's will and to speak in her name. So our next speaker, Sam Harris, thinks it's time to address the role religion plays in perpetuating human conflict…Our world has become balkanized…."
- 104. McMikey - October 7, 2010
Ok, I'm game, convince me that the sun does not rise and set.
Insert Smiley Face Here 🙂
- 105. WhaleRider - October 7, 2010
First you have to change your perspective and be able to see the bigger picture, the part that sometimes goes unseen.
Stop looking at the pretty colors of the sun as it "sets' and "rises" and lets take a look at the background of stars behind the sun as our earth moves around it. (Believe it our not, the stars are there all the time, just hard to see in all the bright sunlight.) Just look into my telescope with the special yellow filter here…:)
- 106. McMikey - October 7, 2010
Hi Whalerider:
Me is ancient & primitive. I don't know what you mean "change my perspective". I have a hard enough time making fire and haven't invented magic telescope yet. Fire Good.
Next you'll be trying to convince me that the Sun is shining all the time, it only appears to be night and day.
PS. The stars also rise & set. It still seems as if they are revolving around the apparently flat earth. I am fascinated by the so-called "wandering stars", maybe they control "body types". Big Ju Ju.
- 107. nige - October 7, 2010
Please forgive me. I cannot get Adobe Reader or Adobe Falsh Player to work or download on my computer. However I was trying to find some answer to WhaleRider about RACES. Are you really trying to tell me there is no difference between Latins and Orientals? Where the frigging heck did you find an article that dismisses differences between peoples of the world? No matter. I am not moved by your temporary mental abberation. I continue upon my life's way. Then all this 'planetary positional/rotational stuff'. You have me in a spin……Nigel.
- 108. WhaleRider - October 7, 2010
Yes, long ago people like Burton looked into the sky and surmised that the sun and stars were fixed and the whole universe revolved around them, but for some unknown reason, the moon's mood "waxed" and "waned", and so Burton says you all had better offer a few young male chickens to the big tree in the forest to make the moon happy again and ensure the moon returns or the world as you know it will end, which regardless is going to happen to you eventually anyway, so hurry up and get to work to block all critical thoughts. The slurping moon is hungry! Oh and those couple of wandering, wayward, disagreeable stars you see in the night sky you call planets, those are just ghosts of dead people stuck hovering above the dining table, dear, who ran out of chickens.
But if everything in the sky was fixed and revolving around him as Burton-types believe from their limited, ego-centric observations, then if a Burton-type looked through my little telescope with the yellow filter here 8) broadening his vision and enabling him to see the pattern of stars behind the sun, he would expect to see that the sun appears to be fixed in the same spot among its celestial brethren as the entire universe revolves around me me me.
But in fact what a reasonable person would see going on behind the bright, shiny scene is that the star field behind the sun is actually moving in relation to it…despite which magic numbers you believe in and is so no matter where you are standing upon the earth, because what actually is fixed, both day and night, is the illuminating sun as the central point of our lively orbit around it, which noticeably changes only our perspective to the background as we age along our path toward wisdom. Even at night the sun is always with us, as is our consciousness even during our dreams.
Burton has convinced his followers that the sun completely disappears at night, and only he makes the sun rise each morning!
- 109. WhaleRider - October 7, 2010
You tell me, nige, what's the difference between a "Latino" and an "Asian"?
Maybe it's time for an upgrade of your software?
Feel the love!
- 110. nige - October 7, 2010
109 WhaleRider
I am not trying to be contentious. We had that with the subject of cigarettes. But isn't that the whole idea with the Creation Theory? – Infinite Diversity…..Nigel.
- 111. nige - October 7, 2010
And by the way…..I still employ the Body Types and Centers of Gravity theory to my Work with My Students…..Nigel.
- 113. WhaleRider - October 8, 2010
I'm not sure where you are going with the reference to creationism vs. infinite diversity and body type/center of gravity vs. race.
You still haven't answered my question. What is the difference between a Latino and an Asian besides their nationality?
Does eye shape, hair type, or skin color in any way make two humans essentially different from each other, even though we are all scientifically classified as the same species?
FYI, there are no sub-species of humans, except for those who live in Texas and New Jersey, that is.
In your mind are all pure Latinos mercurial and all pure Asians lunar then? Ever met a martial-lunar type? I have.
Even though we loftily claim that "all men are created equal", the "race" concept was apparently an American invention used to justify the enslavement of an inferior "race" of black men with supposed undesirable qualities by a superior "race" of white men with more desirable qualities. Hence interracial marriage was banned.
Race was an idea primarily used to exclude others and establish a social and economic hierarchy with white men on top. You cannot change or evolve out of your "race".
The Nazis took the idea of white racial purity to insane extremes.
Race is still a zombie lie that just won't die.
- 114. nige - October 8, 2010
113 WhaleRider
You have said what you wanted to say, it makes sense and you have gone to length to explain your view. From my view (and I would really like to drop the subject/argument after this and give others more space for more useful posting on other subjects) I have a quiet pride in my double-Celt heritage (and, may I say, the fact that it entails the smith's craft to a great extent) but I am certainly not going to go around Exeter beating up on Sikhs and Muslems or any of the visiting racial varieties. In fact, if you were to be able to see my craft work, it is quite multi-cultural and I had an aim in California that I actually wanted my work to harmonise factions (it turned into paranoia on 11 June 1989). Can you appreciate that and still hold your view (scale and relativity)?…..Nigel.
- 115. McMikey - October 8, 2010
I have no objection to: "Man on top, get it over with quick."
"Hold still, this will only take a few seconds and you won't feel a thing."
- 116. The FOFion - October 8, 2010
Elephant Found in Room; Fellowship Issues Formal Denial
OREGON HOUSE, Calif. (ARK) — Following a preliminary investigation into the worldwide activities of the Fellowship of Friends, a non-profit think tank has concluded there's an Elephant in the Room.
"No elephant," said an FOF spokesperson in a tersely worded denial.
The FOF has offered no explanation regarding gaping holes and large-scale damage to Fellowship structures throughout the world.
New York City police investigators were initially baffled earlier this week when they found an FOF teaching house where the roof had caved in. They were even more puzzled to see residents continuing to wash fine porcelain in same house after a Centre Dinner.
Said one officer: "That sure looks like elephant damage. It's a classic case."
- 117. WhaleRider - October 8, 2010
My friend, I am not done yet.
When you speak of people in terms of their religion, as in "Sikhs and Muslems or any of the visiting racial varieties…" referring to them as a religious race and also as visitors, I find that deeply offensive and toxic.
In my book, those are racist comments and will not go unchallenged.
You pay lip service to being a "true seeker of the truth", and yet you refuse to even discuss your romantic illusions about race.
Does this speak to a paranoia (11 June 89) you may still be harboring about people with different skin color that yours?
Please, to help lower the cringe/eye-rolling factor in your beloved students, here's the language update software for your subconscious word bank file. It's easy.
Switch:(race, racial)
To:(ethnic, ethnicity)
One's ethnic background is supported by Science and doesn't carry the toxic, subconscious meme that one race is better than another, which is why the term "race" was coined by white guys like you who immigrated to our country a while back in search of their fortunes, often at the expense of others.
There is no scientific evidence to support the idea that humans are of various "races".
You are proud of your ethnic background.
Let's leave it at that.
I have no problem calling out elephants in the room of any color.
- 118. nige - October 8, 2010
Go see a counsellor. You are disappearing up your own ass on this one. I am no type of -ist, whether you believe it or not…..Nigel.
- 119. nige - October 8, 2010
And as to becoming an immigrant seeking my fortune, I tried to commit suicide as an (made by incompetent lawyers and unscrupulous employers) illegal immigrant. America is the epitome of the 'Money, power and sex' microcosm that became the Fellowship and REB WHO SUCKED YOUR COCK!!!!!
- 120. nige - October 8, 2010
And when I said 'visiting racial varieties', I actually meant that, as Exeter receives many foreign visitors. At this point in time, you are a 'venemous misinterpreter'…..Nigel.
- 121. arthur - October 8, 2010
I think "latino" refers to language and not people.
I read somewhere that Romans spoke a language called "Latin".
Over time the language called "Latin" devolved into the Romance Languages, so they say.
These Romance Languages came out to be Italian, Spanish, French, Romanian and Moorish/Celtic, I think?
Overtime the Moor/Celtics disappeared into Kentucky hillbilly or Georgia Napes.
Beforehand though Christopher Columbus (not the correct ethnic spelling, I was told) came to Columbia, New Jersey via Texas.
On his second and third trips up the Rio Grande river sometimes called the Rio Bravo, he was followed by a contingent of Latin tongue talkers. similiar to the modern day spiritual tongue twisting "praying in spirit" fans of God allmighty.
To this day those lands and people south of the Rio Grande are called "Latin America" and "Latinos". And more than likely few if any can speak Latin.
But then again Christopher Columbus (not the correct ethnic spelling, I was told) named the peoples in the re-discoverd land "Indios" all the time thinking he was near New Dehli (not the correct ethnic spelling).
And to this very day Chief Red Horse of the peoples Kiowa is Indian.
- 122. WhaleRider - October 8, 2010
Hmmm…OK, to my ear, "foreign visitors" is a lot different than "visiting racial varieties" who happen to be camped out on your gnarly Celtic soil. Thanks for the clarification. I was wrong. Sorry if I misunderstood you on that one point.
People of different religions, ethnic backgrounds, or skin color are not a different "race" of people.
It's a fucked up way of looking at the world and only leads to more inequality!
Nigel, racists don't think they are racists for exactly the same reason cult followers don't think they are in a cult, because, as you put it, their heads are too far up their own asses, and they have a hard time letting go of all the shit that has accumulated up there!
I trust you've learned by now that suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.
You are living proof I was also wrong about Texans.
- 123. nige - October 8, 2010
Can we go to a different subject, please?…..Nigel
- 124. The FOFion - October 8, 2010
Form of School Changes
OREGON HOUSE, Calif. (ARK) — There's been a change of direction in the school.
From now on, the main purpose of the Fellowship of Friends is to provide comfort, pleasure, and luxury to Robert Burton while neglecting the health and welfare of his followers.
Previously, the aim of the school was to awaken its participants while building an ark following the end of civilization.
"Bummer," said one student, "but honestly I wasn't looking forward to living in a fallout shelter with all of these people. So I'll take the bad with the good."
- 125. Ames Gilbert - October 8, 2010
Jomo (97-41), thanks for saying it far better than I could myself.
Your thoughts stimulate me to add the following:
Not only is the 'Fourth Way'–as presented to us– authoritarian and doctrinaire, but it is has other important facets common to other religions (and that is before Burton got hold of it and massaged it into the Church of Robert Burton). In my opinion, the most important commonality with the other major 'jam tomorrow, but never jam today' religions, for example, conventional Christianity and Islam, is the idea of 'original sin', wherein we are born imperfect, impure, and in a very bad place. But these religions claim that if you put your trust in revealed truth and the interpreters thereof, and do a lot of work one way or another, and make splendid sacrifices, then maybe, maybe you will get something worthwhile or go somewhere more pleasant after you die.
Somewhere in the first few pages of this blog, someone (not ever connected with the FoF, apparently) made the observation that if most of us had studied comparative religion (you know, do some preliminary study and groundwork before making drastic decisions like embracing the Fellowship of Friends), most of us would have recognized the 'Fourth Way' for what it was. In other words, we would have recognized where most of the material came from, would have recognized that the message was much the same from many diverse sources, and might have even recognized the direct appeal to our vanities, especially our intellectual vanity. And we might have recognized the manipulation of our fear of death for what it is.
Neither the majority religions nor the Fourth Way seem to encourage much interest in our actual lives in this 'vale of tears'. Even Buddhism exhorts us to get to a dispassionate place where we see life as ephemeral (preferably guided by experts of this or that lineage). Granted, there is the admonition to 'be present', but only to help escape. For example, the Fourth Way presents the idea that there is something so special about these moments that if we can connect enough of them together, we will become quite different and possibly immortal, and in the meantime, we 'can escape into that presence'.
Get out of prison… wow, that had a very strong appeal for me. Get away from the madness. The world, and especially human behavior, seemed insane–and here was something that not only explained why, but could help me eventually escape to something better. A System…
Thirty-two years on, and I still can observer human behavior in this world as insane. But now, instead of trying to escape, I try the only alternative, I turn towards the experience of this life and embrace it, exactly as it is, even if some aspects appear to be insane. For some (presently unknown to me) reason, the circumstances are that I get a chance to experience this life. Instead of trying to escape, it now seems better to stick around and plunge into this life to the fullest. And, however futile it seems, there is nothing better to do about the apparent insanity than to try to help ameliorate some of the effects as best as I can, try to live a decent life and lighten the load of others where possible. To seek happiness wherever I can find it without doing so at the expense of others. And to try to have as few regrets as possible. In fact, having reached these conclusions, I look back on my experience with the Fourth Way and my attitudes at that time as rather childish and self–centered. Facing up to things as they are, where they are, and living as if there might be absolutely nothing after death, yet nevertheless behaving impeccably seems much more like the work of a grown–up, in my opinion.
It seems to me that you are trying to engage with someone who in my view is still deeply enmeshed with the FoF, down to using the particular language and thought–forms, and doesn't sound like he ever got over wanting to feel special—one of the many illusions fostered by the FoF. You might want to consider a strategic withdrawal.
- 127. quorum - October 9, 2010
Wouldnt You Like To Know, maybe a little of what you wrote resonates with me, but overall I don't know where you're coming from or what you're trying to say. It's fairly obvious my words didn't speak to you, and for the most part I have to say the same in return.
For me, the main point is to question the fourth way — just question it. We were hard-wired with some heavy-duty programming to never question it, never doubt it, and never wonder about the motives of the people who "teach" it. And the first idea to question is this idea that the fourth way is all about verifying things, and not about believing. One thing I will say about religions and devout practicing religious people — they at least talk about belief and faith and do not make me sick discussing what they've "verified."
It's a person's ego, plain and simple, who believes they need "a teacher", or that they need "a school"… and "a" is the operative word. There are other views of the world where we can find our calling by seeing valuable teachers and valuable lessons and schools everywhere, while occasionally stopping to listen to someone whose message resonates with us, sometimes for a bit longer than usual, or sometimes for just a moment in passing. Focusing entirely on one teacher, and one school and closing yourself off to the rest of the world… hmm. Some might say that's as far as you can get from learning and self awareness.
But if spending some time in the FOF doesn't evoke at least a few doubts and critical thinking about the fourth way, and about "teachers" and "gurus" in general, definitely nothing I say — or nothing surelyujest says, or Ames says, or anyone says — is going to matter.
- 128. WhaleRider - October 9, 2010
"…embrace it, exactly as it is, even if some aspects appear to be insane."
Yes, that's pretty much how I engage with people, too.
In my experience, even people labeled as insane are not insane all the time.
Do FOFers also embrace the FOF even though some parts of it appear to be quite insane and downright ridiculous? You bet they do!
We all want to avoid conflict (unless one experiences the cessation of anxiety by creating conflict in others) and retreat into what gives us pleasure and peace.
Do you think my conversation with Nigel is solely for his sake? Nigel is a person who happens to be showing up to some extent and expressing himself, which is great.
I think it is valuable to expose here in writing the underlying beliefs and supporting thoughts that lead to forming a cult or becoming a cult member, even if it seems like head banging against a wall.
Remember what Burton once said to you about "negros" being the "criminal aspect of society"?
What a crock of shit! But we bought it. Why?
As you said, that underlying need to feel special, rooted in both cults and racism, which Burton panders to in his followers, thank you very much Nigel.
Nigel carries his own narcissistic wound, just like the rest of us, and most of us like to feel good about ourselves and sooth that wound…sometimes, unfortunately, it is at the expense of others.
- 129. quorum - October 9, 2010
Ames wrote: "Whalerider, It seems to me that you are trying to engage with someone who in my view is still deeply enmeshed with the FoF, down to using the particular language and thought–forms, and doesn't sound like he ever got over wanting to feel special—one of the many illusions fostered by the FoF. You might want to consider a strategic withdrawal."
I sense there's a lot of truth in that, because I sense that's true with a lot of people even after leaving the fof. But I also sense the use of the "particular language and thought forms" associated with the fof is just a habit — as it is for most of us. I haven't followed very closely the discussion going on between WhaleRider and Nigel, but I sense there's a misunderstanding more than there's a disagreement.
If the goal here is to articulate what we've learned from our varied experiences in the cult, and to gain even more understanding by listening to others articulate what they've learned — I sense both WhaleRider and Nigel are doing that, or at least trying to. I sense the confusion here is often a fairly obvious outgrowth (at least in part) of spending way too many years in that cult, where conversation can only follow a specific outline. Real communication — using our own words, uttering our own relatively unfiltered thoughts, and telling people clearly and directly exactly what we mean regardless of the possibility of impending disagreement — was lacking there. Almost no real communication can occur if we're first sending out "trial balloons" to make sure the idea is accepted by the group before we start actually communicating it more widely. So, even if things get a little rocky here, at least people are venturing outside the safe confines of using the acceptable terms and phrases.
Happy Birthday, John Lennon…
- 130. quorum - October 9, 2010
Mr. Linus,
After re-reading what you wrote hours later, I understood more clearly, and it resonated with me. I get where you're coming from. Thanks for posting.
Still, Ouspensky was extremely clear what he meant. No wrong translation going on there:
"We must understand that man can do nothing. But he does not realize this and ascribes to himself the capacity to do. This is the first wrong thing that man ascribes to himself. That must be understood very clearly. Man cannot do. Everything that man thinks he does, really happens… Man cannot move, think, or speak of his own accord."
Think about it (on your own accord or otherwise):
It's the absolutely perfect hook for a cult. Get someone to believe they cannot move, think, or speak of their own accord (and yes, we did believe it to various degrees), and you can do all of the moving, thinking, and speaking for them.
- 131. Ames Gilbert - October 9, 2010
I accept that you are not talking to Nigel alone. Nevertheless, he thinks he is conversing with you. Don't you think his last posts were directed at you personally? Those words in capitals were screaming, IMO.
Regarding 'narcissistic wounds', I am certain for myself that I was involved in a narcissistic dance with Burton. Of course I am less certain about others, but it seemed to me to be a common feature of the average follower, that they were also in a similar dance with him. In other words, Burton is a highly developed narcissist, and he attracted those people who were able to mirror him to one degree or another. Those who saw what was happening in that regard and didn't agree left sooner, and those who were comfortable with or fed on the mutual agreements stayed longer, in my case much longer.
- 132. nige - October 9, 2010
"World in Union", with lyrics by Charlie Skarbek, is a theme song for the Rugby World Cup which attempts to capture the spirit of international friendship which pervades rugby union culture the world over.
The melody is Thaxted – the stately theme from the middle section of "Jupiter, the Bringer of Jollity", a movement from Gustav Holst's The Planets, and was originally adapted by Holst for its use in the English / Anglican patriotic hymn, "I Vow To Thee My Country".
"World in Union" Lyrics:
There's a dream, I feel
So rare, so real
All the world in union
The world as one
Gathering together
One mind, one heart
Every creed, every colour
Once joined, never apart
It's the world in union
The world as one
As we climb to reach our destiny
A new age has begun
Searching for the best in me
I will find what I can be
If I win, lose or draw
is a victory for all
We may face high mountains
Must cross rough seas
We must take our place in history
And live with dignity
Just to be the best I can
Sets the goal for every man
If I win, lose or draw
It's a victory for all
It's the world in union
The world as one
As we climb to reach our destiny
A new age has begun
It's the world in union
The world as one
As we climb to reach our destiny
A new age has begun
The song was commissioned by the International Rugby Board (at that time the International Rugby Football Board), the sport's governing body, in 1991 and it has now become synonymous with the 'gathering of the nations' that the four-yearly tournament represents.
Dear Whalerider
I, at one time, thought that it was possible to bring war backwards in contest, to sport…..Nigel.
- 133. nige - October 9, 2010
Damn you, call me proud, if you like for where I am, but I am for you and the conflict with REB!!!!!…..Nigel.
The Secret People
Smile at us, pay us, pass us; but do not quite forget,
For we are the people of England, that never has spoken yet.
There is many a fat farmer that drinks less cheerfully,
There is many a free French peasant who is richer and sadder than we.
There are no folk in the whole world so helpless or so wise.
There is hunger in our bellies, there is laughter in our eyes;
You laugh at us and love us, both mugs and eyes are wet:
Only you do not know us. For we have not spoken yet.
The fine French kings came over in a flutter of flags and dames.
We liked their smiles and battles, but we never could say their names.
The blood ran red to Bosworth and the high French lords went down;
There was naught but a naked people under a naked crown.
And the eyes of the King's Servants turned terribly every way,
And the gold of the King's Servants rose higher every day.
They burnt the homes of the shaven men, that had been quaint and kind,
Till there was no bed in a monk's house, nor food that man could find.
The inns of God where no man paid, that were the wall of the weak,
The King's Servants ate them all. And still we did not speak.
And the face of the King's Servants grew greater than the King:
He tricked them, and they trapped him, and stood round him in a ring.
The new grave lords closed round him, that had eaten the abbey's fruits,
And the men of the new religion, with their Bibles in their boots,
We saw their shoulders moving, to menace or discuss,
And some were pure and some were vile; but none took heed of us.
We saw the King as they killed him, and his face was proud and pale;
And a few men talked of freedom, while England talked of ale.
A war that we understood not came over the world and woke
Americans, Frenchmen, Irish; but we knew not the things they spoke.
They talked about rights and nature and peace and the people's reign:
And the squires, our masters, bade us fight; and never scorned us again.
Weak if we be for ever, could none condemn us then;
Men called us serfs and drudges; men knew that we were men.
In foam and flame at Trafalgar, on Albuera plains,
We did and died like lions, to keep ourselves in chains,
We lay in living ruins; firing and fearing not
The strange fierce face of the Frenchman who knew for what he fought,
And the man who seemed to be more than man we strained against and broke;
And we broke our own rights with him. And still we never spoke.
Our path of glory ended; we never heard guns again.
But the squire seemed struck in the saddle; he was foolish, as if in pain.
He leaned on a staggering lawyer, he clutched a cringing Jew,
He was stricken; it may be, after all, he was stricken at Waterloo.
Or perhaps the shades of the shaven men, whose spoil is in his house,
Come back in shining shapes at last to spoil his last carouse:
We only know the last sad squires ride slowly towards the sea,
And a new people takes the land: and still it is not we.
They have given us into the hands of the new unhappy lords,
Lords without anger and honour, who dare not carry their swords.
They fight by shuffling papers; they have bright dead alien eyes;
They look at our labour and laughter as a tired man looks at flies.
And the load of their loveless pity is worse than the ancient wrongs,
Their doors are shut in the evenings; and they know no songs.
We hear men speaking for us of new laws strong and sweet,
Yet is there no man speaketh as we speak in the street.
It may be we shall rise the last as Frenchmen rose the first,
Our wrath come after Russia's wrath and our wrath be the worst.
It may be we are meant to mark with our riot and our rest
God's scorn for all men governing. It may be beer is best.
But we are the people of England; and we have not spoken yet.
Smile at us, pay us, pass us. But do not quite forget.
- 134. nige - October 9, 2010
131 Ames Gilbert
Thank you for softening affairs (I am crying as I write this – I did not know WhaleRider would have such wounds and attitudes). Do I feel special? – maybe every human needs to feel special – with his/her connection with the Divine…..Nigel.
- 135. WhaleRider - October 9, 2010
I would expect any man to fight IN ALL CAPS even…to hold on tightly to the illusions that comfort them, that provide them with a sense of identity.
You have every reason to be proud of your ethnic background.
And your English beer is pretty darn good, too.
- 136. nige - October 9, 2010
Cheers, mate.
- 137. ton - October 9, 2010
q, thanks for your sensing:
"If the goal here is to articulate what we've learned from our varied experiences in the cult, and to gain even more understanding by listening to others articulate what they've learned — I sense both WhaleRider and Nigel are doing that, or at least trying to. I sense the confusion here is often a fairly obvious outgrowth (at least in part) of spending way too many years in that cult, where conversation can only follow a specific outline. Real communication — using our own words, uttering our own relatively unfiltered thoughts, and telling people clearly and directly exactly what we mean regardless of the possibility of impending disagreement — was lacking there. Almost no real communication can occur if we're first sending out "trial balloons" to make sure the idea is accepted by the group before we start actually communicating it more widely. So, even if things get a little rocky here, at least people are venturing outside the safe confines of using the acceptable terms and phrases.
and wyltk… although imo you often come off "sounding" like yet another "know it all" — an unfortunate trait of many who have cycled through the fof — nevertheless, thanks for the zen-like interpretation of the idea that 'man cannot do.' blowjob bob's twisted version was/is just another meme which, when successfully implanted, has the effect of disempowering the members of his 'flock,' thus creating in them ever more dependence on the imagined 'shepherd' for 'leadership.'
"This is what I learned from the Fourth Way: One can NOT do. One can not-do many things (like not-do negative emotions or not-do false personality/features). And, especially, one can not do the Fourth Way (along with many other useless habits and inclinations). One can not-do powerlessness and weakness. One can not be in a very bad place in the universe. It is your choice. By not-doing you create a space where miracles may happen."
- 138. nige - October 10, 2010
Martin Luther King Jr. – "I Have a Dream" (exerpts)
"In a sense we've come to our nation's capital to cash a check. When the architects of our republic wrote the magnificent words of the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence, they were signing a promissory note to which every American was to fall heir. This note was a promise that all men – yes, black men as well as white men – would be guaranteed the unalienable rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. It is obvious today that America has defaulted on this promissory note, insofar as her citizens of color are concerned. Instead of honoring this sacred obligation, America has given the Negro people a bad check, a check which has come back marked 'insufficient funds.'"
"It would be fatal for the nation to overlook the urgency of the moment. This sweltering summer of the Negro's legitimate discontent will not pass until there is an invigorating autumn of freedom and equality. Nineteen sixty-three is not an end, but a beginning. Those who hope that the Negro needed to blow off steam and will now be content will have a rude awakening if the nation returns to business as usual."
"The marvelous new militancy which has engulfed the Negro community must not lead us to a distrust of all white people. For many of our white brothers as evidenced by their presence here today have come to realize that their destiny is tied up with our destiny and they have come to realize that their freedom is inextricably bound to our freedom. We cannot walk alone."
"I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: 'We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal.'"
"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
"I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will be able to sit down together at a table of brotherhood."
"This is our hope. This is the faith that I go back to the South with. With this faith we will be able to hew out of the mountain of despair a stone of hope. With this faith we will be able to transform the jangling discords of our nation into a beautiful symphony of brotherhood. With this faith we will be able to work together, to pray together, to struggle together, to go to jail together, to stand up for freedom together, knowing that we will be free one day."
"Now is the time to lift our nation from the quicksand of racial injustice to the solid rock of brotherhood. Now is the time to make justice a reality for all of God's children."
"Let freedom ring. And when this happens, and when we allow freedom ring—when we let it ring from every village and every hamlet, from every state and every city, we will be able to speed up that day when all of God's children—black men and white men, Jews and Gentiles, Protestants and Catholics—will be able to join hands and sing in the words of the old Negro spiritual: "Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last!"
("Pro Libertate" – the Wallace motto)…..Nigel
- 139. McMikey - October 11, 2010
"Man cannot do, but he can do-do."
- 140. WhaleRider - October 11, 2010
Thanks for the quote, nige. You went right to the source!
MLK Jr. was a brilliant man, truly one of the brightest lights in 2000 years…or at least in my lifetime.
- 141. nige - October 11, 2010
140 WhaleRider
Why, with so many things going wrong with this world, are beautiful, brilliant people put to death. It seems so inconsistent with the 'slogans' that are put up…..Nigel.
- 142. nige - October 11, 2010
140 WhaleRider
Do you know – we have reached a new level on this blog – by awakening/shock/confrontation, then surrender to what should be, then expression of working together, we have captivated the 'FOF audience'…..Nigel.
- 143. nige - October 11, 2010
I think heroic deeds were all conceiv'd in the open air, and all great poems also;
I think I could stop here myself, and do miracles;
(My judgments, thoughts, I henceforth try by the open air, the road;)
I think whatever I shall meet on the road I shall like, and whoever beholds me shall like me;
I think whoever I see must be happy.
From this hour, freedom!
From this hour I ordain myself loos'd of limits and imaginary lines,
Going where I list, my own master, total and absolute,
Listening to others, and considering well what they say,
Pausing, searching, receiving, contemplating,
Gently, but with undeniable will, divesting myself of the holds that would hold me.
I inhale great draughts of space;
The east and the west are mine, and the north and the south are mine.
I am larger, better than I thought;
I did not know I held so much goodness.
All seems beautiful to me;
I can repeat over to men and women, You have done such good to me, I would do the same to you.
I will recruit for myself and you as I go;
I will scatter myself among men and women as I go;
I will toss the new gladness and roughness among them;
Whoever denies me, it shall not trouble me;
Whoever accepts me, he or she shall be blessed, and shall bless me.
From "Song of the Open Road", by Walt Whitman
- 144. nige - October 11, 2010
Am I beautiful to you? My Divine Mother mad me that way…..Nigel.
- 145. nige - October 11, 2010
Sorry! MADE not MAD…..Nigel.
- 146. Someone - October 12, 2010
A question:
Is there a chance for any lawsuit/petition within a reasonable period of time? Or will this small nucleus bunch of people here keep on repeating themselves till they get the Parkinson's disease?
Why on earth none of those who claim to have been abused, doesn't file a suit?
Is there a straightforward answer the this question?
- 147. paul g - October 12, 2010
they will keep on repeating themselves till they get Alzheimers, or Robert dies.
It's they only way to keep the issues current. Nothing else will happen for a long time. So it's a good thing. Eventually someone will publish some kind of book. It will make the press in a small way. Perhaps some other kind of media exposure, a documentary or something.
Oh. Hold on. Your not one of those fellowship apologist BASTARDS, are you? I fucking hate you if you are. YOU MAKE ME FUCKING SICK.
(inspiration for the next 30 or so comments).
- 148. another name - October 13, 2010
Thanks Someone
Shame is probably one factor, why people do not file a suit and quilt feelings of "having allowed Burton's" behavior another reason for not suing.
The groups of people Burton approached like the Russians and Romanians which culture partly allows these practices as a means to "survive" are not likely to sui and are not grown up in a culture used to the practice of suing.
Some of the students who have been part of Robert's circle have a history of abuse before the fellowship and they will consider this approach as "normal". Some of them approach others as Robert did….Which in turn makes those people it less likely to start a law suit.
Yet there must be people who could be candidates and educated regarding the possibility of suing. The men I spoke with all had one of the above reasons to not suing.
Hope this answers part of your question.
- 149. quorum - October 13, 2010
Paul, my sentiments exactly. Have you ever met someone or seen someone who creeped you out enough to make you think they were involved in organized crime? Or if not involved in crime, at least that something was seriously off? I get that feeling from apologists sometimes. Weird stuff. No conscience. No compassion or empathy. To feel what is happening in the FOF would involve the crumbling of their belief that they have reached a superior "level of being." Their ego won't allow it. Introspection and compassion spoils their fun.
Regarding lawsuits, people have sued the FOF in the past… Some1 obviously knows this. But I'm curious how this particular apologist knows that people aren't in the process of suing right now. Maybe they have some sort of inside information from the legal arm of the FOF… connected to Abe in some way?
I think another name is right on. It's hard to make the leap from compliance and passivity to strident action. Some have, though. I'd be careful what you wish for, Some1.
- 150. quorum - October 13, 2010
Nigel, thank you for presenting the beautiful quotations and poetry excerpts. Each is perfect.
- 151. McMikey - October 13, 2010
Repeated behavior, is it good or bad?
Misuse of power: Bad.
Some people helping Robert Burton (or anyone else for that matter) manifest lust, greed & anger: Bad.
Sorry for the primitive language, me not understand question, perhaps.
Fire Good. Ouch! Burned again.
- 152. WhaleRider - October 13, 2010
Men Rescued From Dark Hole
Oregon House (Yuba County)- Shortly before a chilly dawn this morning, at a little known Northern Californian goldmine run by the Fellowship of Friends, Inc., several more young men quit their frilly jobs on the homosexual octave crew and were able to rejoin humanity at just about the darkest hour of their lives, each from having crawled out of the deep hole they dug for themselves over the course of many years.
"I am so glad to see the light again", said one of the rescued spiritual miners who admitted to being trapped in his ossified thinking for over 20 years. "A huge weight has been lifted from my shoulders. To those who kept chipping away at that bedrock I placed above my head and never gave up on me, I say, thank you! You saved my life!"
An aloof, detached spokesfollower for the Fellowship adorned in gold jewelry stated that even if operations were shut down here, the moat of profits the corporation has accumulated over the years would enable them to either import and exploit homosexual octave workers from other struggling nations willing to go down or just move the entire freak show to another country with vast deposits of unemployed young male resources in order to continue with their lucrative spiritual mining operations unabated elsewhere.
- 153. paul g - October 14, 2010
148, 149
thankyou dear quorum, but I was just kidding when I wrote that bit at the end. That level of invective is sometimes found here and it seems a bit pointless to me after a while. It gets to sounding sort of childish and pathetic. I don't know if someone is an apologist or not but what he/she or it said made sense to me. I also think shame must be a powerful factor and all that another name mentioned.
I would of thought that if someone were suing the fellowship everyone would know about it, it would be in the court records or something….
As for the criminality of it and the compliance of the faithful, thats highly disturbing.
- 154. quorum - October 14, 2010
The "level of invective" here is a type of dissent and opposition — that's all. It's healthy imo. Lack of dissent is unhealthy, and although it may not be all that childish, lack of dissent is most definitely pathetic.
So, I didn't quite see the humor in your comments — that said, I like a good laugh now and then, and I do agree with you that some criticisms don't quite hit the mark as well as others. Yours included.
But that's one of the primary characteristics of a cult — attempts to quiet and ridicule criticism, dissent, negativity, opposition. So, lest we be just another cult (minus the blow jobs and sociopathic control), point taken.
- 155. quorum - October 14, 2010
I keep hearing this word "shame" in relation to men who have had sexual contact with Burton. Although I know that people use the word with some compassion, this is an over-used word by students/ex-students. While I'm sure some men occasionally feel a powerful type of shame when they realize they fell for a con, I don't think this is the primary reason for not going public (both within the fof and outside of it), or for not suing Burton.
I think men are confused and don't know where to turn when they experience sexual contact with Burton. They're angry at themselves, angry at Burton, and angry at others for not listening. They're faced with a dramatic change to their world views, or continuing to experience something that in their hearts they know is hurting them. Their world is already seemingly turned upside down, and they don't want to turn it any more upside down. They're concerned about what might happen if they communicate directly with people what has happened to them when those people are fully enmeshed in their denial. They're afraid of losing their friends, losing their souls, losing the life that they believed in, afraid of leaving, and afraid of starting over. And they want to say something, but they're faced with the confusion that saying something might prevent them from moving on. So by far, confusion is the overriding emotion more than shame.
The word shame has connotations of guilt and blame, feeling guilty and placing blame on yourself. If anyone is out there reading this, you MAY feel shame right now, but you definitely have no reason to. Just let go of it.
By the way, the "goal" here (or at least for many of us, sometimes even those who contribute to the "childish" "level of invective" is just to communicate openly. All sorts of good things grow from that. A set of lawsuits may be something that eventually grows from this, but I have no idea. I'm just extremely happy that people have opened up about these experiences during the past few years. Who knows how many have left and moved on to better lives because of something they heard from an ex-student. The FOF certainly hammers home its message with relentless repetition. The repetition here (despite the comment: "Or will this small nucleus bunch of people here keep on repeating themselves till they get the Parkinson's disease?") is absolutely the powerful healing that's needed.
- 156. Jomo Piñata - October 14, 2010
"The Compass of Shame"
- 157. Jomo Piñata - October 14, 2010
- 158. Jomo Piñata - October 14, 2010
Hiller Highlands, June 11, 1974:
"It is surprising how simple the old and new testaments are of the Bible with the keys. Basically one has enough to key information of most importance. The Jewish people also called the Bible the Tora, which is remarkably similar to Tarot, which is an indication that the Tarot developed from the Tora. The same teaching appears in another manner."
- 159. WhaleRider - October 14, 2010
Yeah, I'm not seeing confusion on the compass of shame there.
When I read your post, you speak of the complexity of many emotions one might have, fear, anger, etc., which are powerful emotions indeed and then you sum it up by saying that "…by far, confusion is the overriding emotion more than shame" and "you MAY feel shame right now, but you definitely have no reason to. Just let go of it."
Sounds so easy and reasonable, doesn't it?
But if you think about it, feeling shame is part and parcel of developing a conscience and having personal boundaries, is it not?
Without a conscience, we'd feel neither shame nor regret for instance, about exploiting and/or harming others to further our personal aims.
Burton and his enablers ought to feel ashamed of their behavior, too, don't you agree?
A simpler way to look at it is that shame is pain, and the learning process is painful. If you avoid feeling pain, you do not learn.
Now, personally I am ashamed for having let myself be dehumanized, raped, and exploited in so many ways by Burton and his rape factory.
The truth of that painful realization reminds me never again to put myself in such a position where I let go of my power and dignity in order to feed the grandiose ego of a narcissist and socipath.
Socipaths are very clever in lulling their potential victims into a glossy-eyed, false sense of security so they don't feel anything, kind of like how bedbugs apply a topical anaesthetic before they bite and suck your blood. You don't feel a thing until later.
A successful socipath like Burton also works within a social framework in which the victim is blamed because the abusive behavior runs so counter to the sociopath's appearance or stated lofty goals, or the victim is incited to blame themselves. This feeds the socipath's illusion that he or she is absolved of any responsibility for their actions.
I would hesitate to recommend a person let go of any feeling, really. We need to consciously feel and contain all our feelings, even the so-called "negative" ones, so we can learn and grow from our experiences, otherwise we are destined to unconsciously repeat our mistakes.
We cause more harm to ourselves and others by avoiding feelings, rather than just by having them.
Thanks for posting, I'm glad you are showing up here.
- 160. paul g - October 14, 2010
trying to imagine and conjecture upon the feelings of someone in the wake of an experience like this is an act of creative imagination. But you can never know or speak authoritatively about it. And how someone copes with the resulting feelings is up to them, and part of their process. But all the conjecturing so far makes sense to me. As a 'spiritual' crime it opens up so many contradictory and self-defeating perspectives – I've experienced a little of this myself.
Being vulnerable is not in my opinion something to be ashamed of. Feeling ashamed of being abused is an outcome of abuse that profits the abuser. Abusers promote such shame and guilt.
I agree that this blog can only continue because it must. But I sometimes have looked here – quite often in fact – to see if something has actually happened, and find instead gimmicks and diversions. A better place for that would be on the GF site I think.
- 161. WhaleRider - October 14, 2010
paul g:
I suppose that a healthy, well-adjusted person wouldn't have to stretch and strain their creative imagination muscle too too much to empathize with the suffering of others, don't you agree? Empathy ought to come naturally and easily, but often it doesn't and is considered by some as a weakness.
"Feeling ashamed of being abused is an outcome of abuse that profits the abuser."
True, only if the victim's shame keeps them suffering in silence, thus enabling the abuser to continue abusing others in the victim pool unabated.
If publicly sharing their shame, fear, anger, confusion or guilt helps to warn others, well, that's another story.
The last event an perp wants is for his victims to get together, share notes, and make a fuss.
It is far better for the perp if the victim remains afraid or feels nothing at all and just disappears into the woodwork.
I'd say that abusers promote fear more than anything else. Fear is paralyzing.
If you only "find instead gimmicks and diversions" here, then you are neglecting those who come here via an internet search curious about the FOF or Pathway to Presence, and are turned off by the ugly truths hidden behind the gold alchemy veil and smiles.
They may never post at all.
Those ugly truths have to be repeated on every page of this blog to warn others who are vulnerable. Do you think a casual observer would spend the time to read this in its entirety?
Thanks for showing up.
- 162. paul g - October 15, 2010
Did I say I only find gimmicks and diversions? Were I to come here wondering about the fellowship and find only personal backstroking, frankly, I'd have to look a little deeper for something of significance, and that is sometimes the case. I suppose there are links at the top of the page…
Empathy and experience are two very different things. Dealing with post traumatic stress disorder, for instance, which will affect a life actually and not merely in the 'feeling muscle', entitles the sufferer to their own space and means of recovery.
Last time 'I showed up' I persistently had my postings removed – they were quotes of Burtons on nuclear holocaust which I thought should be in the public domain. I was given no reason or response to this. But also the tone of emotional hysteria at any criticism makes this blog to appear as a shark pit, and denotes, as far as I can see, a degree of selfish and egotistical investment (in which there can be little empathy), that makes contributing here awkward and limits the wide range of voices it may of once attracted. And by voices I don't mean fellowship apologists.
Forgive me.
- 163. quorum - October 15, 2010
paul g. It sounds like you've had a negative experience posting here, and that you have a fairly negative view about the blog in general, and feel more than a little skeptical about it's value. Is there any chance that someone might post something here that you would see as having potential value — for someone at some time? Or is it a lost cause? Not sure where I'm going with those questions, but I do wonder: If you don't like the level of invective and the immaturity, why not raise the level of it in your own way, and in the only way that you know how? I sense the way you came in — with guns blazing — doesn't really leave a lot of room for that. But I'm sure honest readers and participants would welcome it if you gave it a try. I'd be very interested in reading, by the way, the quotes from Burton about his predictions. I'm guessing it was just a glich in the network if they were never posted?
Whalerider, I think we're thinking along the same lines, but talking about two different things. What concerns me most is that cults (as paul g. implies) try to induce shame. Cult leaders want to you to be ashamed about everything. It helps to promote their agenda. They want you to feel ashamed about having sex with them, feel ashamed for not having sex with them, feel ashamed for disagreeing with them, feel ashamed for not doing "the work", feel ashamed for not understanding or believing in "the sequence," feel ashamed for not understanding or believing in the fourth way, feel ashamed for not understanding or believing in the predictions of earthquakes, feel ashamed for not "getting" why we have a collection of Ming furniture, feel ashamed for not contributing more money, feel ashamed for being late on your "teaching payments," feel ashamed for not attending a meeting or meetings, or just feel ashamed for not getting it when people smile blankly and live in blissful ignorance. And there's a lot, lot more, the cult leader wants you to feel ashamed about.
I think you probably agree with this (I'm just coming at the topic from a different angle)… Shame, and yes, fear too, as you wrote, are driving forces to keep a cult going. When you see that shame is something that your local cult leader is trying to "induce" in you, your attitude about it changes somewhat. You start thinking, hmm, maybe I don't need to feel ashamed after all. Maybe it's not helping me in any way. Maybe I can (eventually, if not immediately) let go of this pointless suffering. Maybe it's just something that someone has taught me to feel.
"Manipulation via Shaming and Guilt-Tripping: Using the Conscience of the Neurotic against Them"
"… a most important point to remember is that neither the tactic of guilt-tripping nor the tactic of shaming would have a prayer of being effective as a manipulation tool if it weren't for the fact that neurotic individuals have such active consciences that prompt them to feel guilty or shameful when they think they've fallen short. Just try using the tactics of shaming or guilt-tripping a disordered character. Their undeveloped or sometimes even absent conscience makes it possible for them to hear your complaints without being even in the slightest bit affected. The fact that these tactics are effective manipulation tools for one group of characters and not for the other testifies to some of the core differences between neurotic individuals and those with disturbed characters.
"Another important thing to recognize is that because disturbed characters use these tactics and understand why they work, they must necessarily understand completely the kinds of behaviors others frequently take issue with and why they take issue with them. They are very aware of the kinds of things that most people regard as things to feel guilty or shameful about. The problem is that when they do such things, they feel neither shameful nor guilty. In fact, they persist in their behavior, actively resisting any submission to the standards with which they try to brow-beat others.
"Traditional perspectives have always tried to explain this by suggesting that the disturbed characters are blinded from insight into their hypocrisy by "denial" and the tendency to "project" (both of which are purported to be unconscious defenses against emotional pain). The reality is that the disordered character is not blind but rather very aware. He also knows full well what behaviors most people regard as wrong and shameful, and he wants others to tow the line. The reason he doesn't play by the same rules is because if he is a narcissistic character, he feels entitled to do otherwise. And if he's one of the aggressive characters, he simply fights to do as he pleases in defiance of the wishes of society."
- 164. McMikey - October 15, 2010
What about it, Mr. fofblogmoderator?
Was paul g censored with no explanation?
Maybe it was c-influence or one of the godlike folks working on themselves.
Good advice for those In and X-FoF alike:
Woe unto him that enters here (CYA Cover Your Ass)
- 165. WhaleRider - October 15, 2010
Hey, thanks for the dialog.
You know, it wasn't until way after I liberated myself from the FOF that I felt ashamed about what had happened. I put it all in a drawer and had to get busy rebuilding my life outside the cult. I had no job or savings.
When I uncorked the feelings on the blog here and set about educating myself by sharing notes with others, then I was both outraged and ashamed about how much worse Burton has become.
I don't recall feeling much shame while I was in the FOF though, cuz hey, I was working against 'feminine dominance'.
In fact, it seems to me that we all were quite shameless in our consumption of great wine, food, and music.
Burton preys on others quite shamelessly, too, and often tells the story of how he shamelessly missed his mother's funeral, proof positive of his high level of being…(gag!)
So I don't remember Burton ever shaming me, for me the so-called 'system' induced a sense of original sin-not enough lifetimes that motivated me through guilt that I wasn't working hard enough or ever "good" enough. So I do remember feeling guilty at times and that was fertile ground for Burton's reward system.
When Burton was fucking with me, it was being ignored by him that induced a feeling of self-doubt, like I was guilty of doing something wrong, and I'd better work harder on myself to please him.
So way back when I was in the FOF, it felt to me like Burton's manipulation was primarily accomplished through his authority and system of rewarding his followers with attention, power, money, status, gifts, drugs, etc. and not shaming, per say.
Nobody had to wear a scarlet letter or anything.
I was at Burton's lunch table the day Miles left.
Burton was glum and silent. I distinctly remember Anna saying, "That Miles, he never did anything for me". And that pretty much set the tone of the lunch. I didn't chime in with anti-Miles stories, I was in shock and didn't say anything at all. I just observed. It seemed to me that Burton was sure fishing for compliments, though.
But Burton, at least in my contact with him, never shamed anyone.
How did you personally feel shame while in the FOF?
- 166. paul g - October 16, 2010
It was a long time ago now, perhaps two years ago. It doesn't matter now. It most definitely wasn't a glitch. Those quotes are on the wikipedia site now.
Thanks for your perceptive comments quorum. I have to say clearly, that there is no hostility in criticizing something, nor is there intended in criticism a criticism of the entire thing and its entire reason for being. That is why criticism is generally regarded as a useful thing. Criticism can be very positive.
I wasn't talking about shame in the context of the ff. I was thinking more of child abuse and situations where the abused is vulnerable and beyond blame. Which I still think is comparable to many in the ff. They've become as little children, in essence, being, just being and being in essence, and doing their stuff, their sequence and all that. In a way I think in their openness they have opened up themselves for Robert Burton to come in and use them, as WR says, with the power of flattery and mock authority.
As far as my knowledge goes of the common sort of child abuse, actually of most types of abuse, the abused is blamed for being the cause of it. It seems natural to feel shame for being abused, especially if it's sexual, as there appears to be an aspect of volition in it, and pleasure, though this shame is part of an illusion and a way of coping, maybe, with the aftermath of it. There it is in that compass gif Jomo put out. Shame is self blame. Or is that easy to say because it rhymes? So if a guy like burton uses you, he doesn't need to do anything more to you.
that is why
was so prevalent during war time, amongst the other forms of rape. You can see it in the photos from Abu Ghraib.
Oh guess what I just found? Irrumatio is called 'Egyptian rape'. The muslims forced their christian captors to do it.
I think the blog is very necessary, and a wonderful and important thing. I just wish someone would go to court or something. It seems also true by now that everything that could be said has been said, in terms of an intellectual analysis of the unfolding wank in a gucci bag on tiptoes that is a major part of the ff story.
To my mind it would also be a better use of the blog if the best of it were posted up onto a web site and added to. It's good that the best bits have been posted, but also signals – I'm sorry for this – an interval of sorts.
- 167. GoldenVeil - October 16, 2010
Many things well said, Paul…but I'm afraid that part of your last bit is delusion. How could you know…?
166. paul g
"It seems also true by now that everything that could be said has been said, in terms of an intellectual analysis of the unfolding wank in a gucci bag on tiptoes that is a major part of the ff story."
" It's good that the best bits have been posted, but also signals – I'm sorry for this – an interval of sorts."
I disagree with this point of view that all has been said and done of importance, except for someone going "to court or something."
After I read [in meticulous detail] the experiences of one particular former member's experience with the "wank in a Gucci bag on tiptoes" I thought I'd heard all I needed to know. But, as some say, long time members damaged by the tip toeing, Gucci-wearing psychotically narcissistic sexual predator Robert Burton [who is at the tip of the Fellowship of Friends / Pathway to Presence pyramid of power]-these members find emotional healing and a processing of sort here. Those former members can post here as long as they like, as far as I am concerned, and don't forget- many of us post here in the hope of saving a potential student from what could be years of self delusion and psychological, emotional and financial damage. That is a legitimate aim and a very real service.
To whom it may concern: If you are reading this and considering paying dues and studying the Fourth Way with the Fellowship of Friends / Pathway to Presence, be forewarned: Unless you are severely lacking in self assertion and are of what is commonly called, a co-dependant nature, in the future at some some time you will be running from 'The School,' and very likely a great sense of regret. You may say to yourself, "Ah, but I would never have met this magnificent man or this lovely woman, my Friends." Or, "Oh, but I learned this esoteric knowledge and I elevated my Being." But at what cost? And what else may have developed in your life outside this very high control cult? Better think twice…
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- 168. GoldenVeil - October 16, 2010
My second attempt to post this song ~
- 169. quorum - October 16, 2010
Hey WhaleRider, paul g., and GoldenVeil, et al,
I started to write something, but it feels good this evening just to let all of your words resonate. Thanks for the great discussions.
- 170. paul g - October 16, 2010
what I meant golden veil was that, in terms of examining b's psychopathy, that bit has been well covered. It's still fascinating, but it's been covered. The dimensions of individuals experience is the richest vein to be found here, along with reportage from the front line of the funny farm. The necessity of recovering a healthy perspective from an unhealthy mirage of reality is a great thing that this blog can assist with. What I meant by the wank in a gucci bag was the ff itself and not it's lovely twinkle toes figurehead! And I'm well aware, too, that most of the students are (well, in my opinion) in a powerful state of …something, that could almost be good were it to lead anywhere genuine in the first place within its own ff construct. But to get anywhere you have to leave it, and that's makes the whole thing – a bit of a wank, really. In a silk purse. From a pigs ear.
Neil Innes, by the way, is God. Check out Rutland TV and all the clips there.
- 171. Tim Seria - October 16, 2010
jobless, 3000 miles from home, isolated, dislocated, sad to the point of despondency, i telephoned burton. he was not someone i knew except i met him a few times.
"i don't have any friends," i said.
"we do know, don't we dear, that that is always our own fault."
that's intentional shaming imo.
- 173. nige - October 17, 2010
From 'Shepherd and Goatherd', by William Butler Yeats…..
"He grows younger every second
That were all his birthdays reckoned
Much too solemn seemed;
Because of what he had dreamed,
Or the ambitions that he served,
Much too solemn and reserved.
Jaunting, journeying
To his own dayspring,
He unpacks the loaded pern
Of all 'twas pain or joy to learn,
Of all that he had made.
The outrageous war shall fade;
At some old winding whitethorn root
He'll practise on the shepherd's flute,
Or on the close-cropped grass
Court his shepherd lass,
Or put his heart into some game
Till daytime, playtime seem the same;
Knowledge he shall unwind
Through victories of the mind,
Till, clambering at the cradle-side,
He dreams himself his mother's pride,
All knowledge lost in trance
Of sweeter ignorance."
- 174. quorum - October 17, 2010
WhaleRider, from your comments and mine from a few days ago, I don't think we disagree with each other. As you suggested, the shame and the pain that you experienced after leaving the fof was probably something you needed to go through (as many of us did), and not something to "let go of" right away. It was a healthy process, something you needed to experience. Hopefully it eventually disappears for each of us, or nearly does. I think that's also a healthy part of the process.
Regarding your comment that you didn't feel any shame within the FOF… That's exactly it. If you participate and play the game, there is no shame induction. Burton is happy. Others are happy. Everything is cool. No one wants to feel shame (it hurts), so they play along, follow the leader. Those who resist and drag their feet may not feel shame, per se, but they will definitely feel a vibe from people that they should feel ashamed for not playing along. This is shame induction.
That's what photographs were. Sure, people occasionally said something sincerely to help a friend or to express a certain opinion about their "manifestations" that might have been helpful to them. I'm not saying it's black and white. But most often photographs were used as a form of shame induction to keep people in line. I think this is exactly what Tim is describing above. It's your fault if you're having trouble. Something is wrong with you. Meanwhile, the school and Robert's behavior are completely normal, is the supposition.
Thousands of sensible "members" "left the school" when they started experiencing a little too much of this bullshit. Others wanted to stay, or didn't know how to leave, so they struggled with it. During that struggle, they may have experienced a sense of shame because they could not connect with people in the school, and they could not connect "with Robert." During that phase, people have a choice: They can wake up and acknowledge that NOT feeling a connection with Burton and the school is actually healthy and completely normal — or they can try to alleviate any accompanying feelings of shame by playing along and continuing their quest to connect with everyone. They'll attend meetings regularly, they'll make sure they buy some raffle tickets, they'll nod and offer their affirmations when someone talks about the sequence or the "aims of the school," and they'll smile calmly and practice non-identification when someone brings up the topic of Burton's sexual coercions. And by the way, I think many ex-students battle with their feelings of shame by softening their stances about the fof after leaving, and by continuing their friendships within it. They continue to seek approval even after leaving. They continue to normalize something that was abnormal.
For some people who remain, shame doesn't enter into the picture. Maybe they just have fun meeting people, getting together for dinners at Apollo d'Oro, flirting with the girls, or whatever — and they don't care at all what Burton is doing, or who is being hurt, or whether the entire operation is one big scam, or sham. If they're having fun and if they have a social life, and if the overall experience offers the delusion that they're doing something important with their lives, that's all that matters. These people will apparently never feel shame, and apparently no one is going to induce shame in them. I completely agree with you that Burton is "shameless," and that a lot of people in the fof are shameless. The world is populated with a lot of shameless people, and the FOF is one of the organizations that attracts them. For those who are not shameless, you either play along, or you struggle with shame and eventually you exit.
To clarify, I don't see shame and guilt as being synonymous with conscience. Definitely someone who has a conscience can feel shame and guilt. Someone without a conscience cannot feel those things. But you can have a conscience without having feelings of shame and guilt. Conscience is something you want to keep and take with you. Shame and guilt eventually need to be left behind for good health and healing.
"Manipulation via Shaming and Guilt-Tripping: Using the Conscience of the Neurotic against Them"
- 175. silentpurr - October 17, 2010
The feature of "no shame" is discussed in the Forth Way, the Search", the Nichol writings…
In my experience, it wasn't used in the Fellowship except as a dart aimed at the back of some departing member.
- 176. quorum - October 17, 2010
"In my experience, it wasn't used in the Fellowship except as a dart aimed at the back of some departing member."
That's my whole point. You don't sense someone is trying to induce shame until you resist what's happening in the cult, and when people leave they are obviously resisting. If you play along, you won't feel any shame induction.
The people who experience this (apparently not you) had a period of time where they actively and OPENLY struggled against the group think — but without leaving immediately. If you "in your experience" just left without talking to a lot of the heavily indoctrinated followers and leaders about why you were leaving, you probably didn't sense anyone was trying to induce shame in you. I'm guessing that a lot of people had that experience: They talked to a few close friends, and then just left.
The feature of "no shame" that you're describing (from Nichol) is something different from what I'm describing. Same word is used, but I believe I'm talking about something different. Again, a person may have "no shame" for different reasons. It's probably because they have no conscience. But a person can have a conscience and not have feelings of shame. Shame and guilt can be cleansing for a period of time, but over the long run it can be a type of psychological prison. It's a lot easier just to play along with the cult goings-on and keep your friendships and not have to face that at all. If you never felt this in the FOF, you probably played along and people didn't give any shit.
- 177. quorum - October 17, 2010
… give YOU any shit.
- 178. WhaleRider - October 18, 2010
Interesting! I had blanked about the use of photography as a means for cult shame induction. Good point, you are right. I'd say the bulk of photography I was exposed to in my day had to do mostly with word exercises, alchemy, body type, and center of gravity.
I also remember an Israeli FOF member complaining to me that he felt flawed because he was said to have a "copper alchemy".
I imagine all the propaganda about keeping the "lower self" in check (taken up after my time) would be another avenue for FOF shame induction, too.
According to wikipedia, "The roots of the word shame are thought to derive from an older word meaning to cover; as such, covering oneself, literally or figuratively, is a natural expression of shame."
IMO, this how shame is associated with silence.
I am of the mind that when a negative or unpleasant feeling is fully felt and expressed instead of avoided, then the unhealthy or self-destructive aspect of the feelings are discharged, one learns, and one gains enough wisdom to avoid repeating the mistake or causing more harm or suffering.
We lock up people who display no remorse for hurting others.
I forgive myself for what happened. I do not forgive Burton for continuing to abuse people.
- 179. Golden Veil - October 18, 2010
Robert Burton: Covered in shit (both literally and figuratively) and shameless!
- 180. veramente - October 19, 2010
171 Tim S.
jobless, 3000 miles from home, isolated, dislocated, sad to the point of despondency, i telephoned burton. he was not someone i knew except i met him a few times.
"i don't have any friends," i said.
"we do know, don't we dear, that that is always our own fault."
that's intentional shaming imo
Burton is a cold, cold son of a bitch!
- 181. WhaleRider - October 19, 2010
Think of it, the Fellowship of Friends, AKA Pathway to Presence, is a group of people who are "taught" through following a doctrine of "resisting feminine dominance" not to feel any remorse for virtually any behavior (theirs or their leader's) so long as the behavior is in the interest of feeding a hypervigilant state of "wordless presence" and it conforms to their leader's warped worldview.
Judging from Burton's shameless personal behavior, the essence of his high intensity/high control cult centers around the attempt to remain in a state of constant excitation associated with sexual arousal or fear.
Burton has labeled this state of arousal a "higher state" and the conforming behavior associated with maintaining his cult's status quo as the "higher self".
This is the cover for Burton's satyriasis mania.
The group's meetings are therefore charged with this "special energy" that many find intoxicating and addictive, while behind the scenes Burton is constantly feeding his sex addiction with any male follower who will succumb to his authority and demands.
Undoubtedly, as I remember, the stimulant caffeine still plays a major role, lest any unfortunate cult member be caught nodding off during a concert or one of Burton's freak shows and be asked to leave the cult.
Framed in this manner, why not become a shameless consumer of pornography as well, if it also produces a "higher state" of arousal, as apparently in GH's case?
The need for the cult leader or guru to maintain an appearance of heightened arousal often leads to drug abuse and other destructive addictions, as evidenced by the history of many a guru and sham evangelist like Burton.
The fault in the glossy-eyed delusion that Burton and his followers are "evolving" is the fact that although hypervigilant, manic states may generate positive feelings and sensations, they are changing and transitory by nature; chasing these states can skew reason and lead to unhealthy behavior.
The transitory nature of moods and states sets the stage for inner conflict and cognitive dissonance in the follower's ego, who soon discovers that although their guru appears constantly aroused, they lack the internal resources and are unable or cannot afford to remain in that state for any great length of time by themselves.
In order to compensate for this inner dissonance, the follower is incited through FOF indoctrination to project his or her insecurities onto non-members and the world at large, retreating to sooth their ego into an infantile state of dependence, hinging upon group membership and compliance.
FOF cult followers believe their leader, Robert Burton, is forging their way into paradise for them…when in reality, they are just playing a role in his abusive delusional system and feeding his mania.
The only high part in the Fellowship's version of a so-called, "higher state", is the high cost to the individual's psyche and well-being to maintain such a state.
- 182. nige - October 19, 2010
"The fault in the glossy-eyed delusion that Burton and his followers are "evolving" is the fact that although hypervigilant, manic states may generate positive feelings and sensations, they are changing and transitory by nature; chasing these states can skew reason and lead to unhealthy behavior."
I can attest to this comment and I am trying to live my creative life within the realm of positive, humanistic behaviour…..Nigel.
- 183. Golden Veil - October 19, 2010
Dear Prospective Student, Current Student, Former Student ~
Re: 181. WhaleRider
"The only high part in the Fellowship's version of a so-called, "higher state", is the high cost to the individual's psyche and well-being to maintain such a state."
Let us not forget the high financial cost of maintaining membership in good standing (that is, unless you are a "young male looker" and the recipient of the fellatio, sodomy, or whatever else her majesty Robert Burton requires of you)
Aside from that omission, I must say that the above post by WhaleRider is worth re-posting on a monthly basis until the demise of this particular "Fourth Way" teacher's "Dicktatorship."
- 184. paul g - October 20, 2010
Its a fairy-tale world, where people are convinced they're breaking out of something, or about to break out of something, or have broken out of something and are taking a breath of relatively fresh air, and have seen something of reality, or are about to see something of reality, from within an exclusive and therefore subjective framework. What they don't realize is that the ff has a 'glass ceiling'. So there like Kay in 'The Ice Queen' perpetually trying to spell 'eternity' in the ice and failing. Caught in the vanity of a narcissistic world of mirrors. You forget your reference points and get lost. It's not surprising. It's a chilling 'relative enlightenment', relative only to where they began from, who they compare themselves too and their elected leader, part ice queen, part pied piper.
- 185. paul g - October 20, 2010
A serial killer of children
William Manchester's A World Lit Only by Fire proposes that the Pied Piper was a psychopathic paedophile. Manchester asserts (apparently drawing on Robert Burton's 1621 account; see below) that on June 20, 1484, this criminal kidnapped 130 children from the Saxon village of Hammel and used them in "unspeakable ways." He adds that "some of the children were never seen again. Others were found dismembered and scattered in the forest underbrush or hanging from tree branches." No documenting support for this alleged incident has ever been found, and Manchester offers no references or citations for his asserted explanation. His account flies in the face of more widely accepted versions of the story that appear to date from at least 120 years earlier.[6]
- 186. WonderingWhosWatching - October 20, 2010
183. Golden Veil:
'. . .unless you are a "young male looker" and the recipient of the fellatio, sodomy, or whatever else her majesty Robert Burton requires of you)'
Perhaps you could additionally mean: 'young male hooker.'
- 187. Golden Veil - October 20, 2010
186. WonderWhosWatching
Perhaps some of the "young male lookers" would qualify as "young male hookers" if they had heard through the grapevine that by playing a particular role they could earn a ticket to the United States. Or, young Americans who had already learned prior to having sex with "The Teacher" Robert Burton that they could earn an all-inclusive ticket to travel abroad to exotic locations that they had previously thought they would never be able to afford to visit on their own by being, let's say, "receptive."
But, I surmise that many of Robert Burton's male sexual consorts get there by experiencing a gradual Fellowship of Friends / Pathway to Presence brainwash that eventually leads them into their intimate one on one sex and group orgies with "The Teacher" Robert Burton. I think that those "students" are the ones that end up especially damaged. We were discussing shame earlier. These are the "students" that will have shame issues to work on after leaving the Fellowship for perhaps the rest of their lives.
- 188. McMikey - October 20, 2010
Close your eyes;
Click your heels 3 times;
Whirl around and say:
"It can't be verified,
But of course it's true,
Robert Burton's more conscious than you!"
And "Poof!" just like that man you adore,
You are now a fairy princess too.
As always, perversion remains an option.
- 189. silentpurr - October 20, 2010
The shame the enablers feel may arise from the realization that they had 'forgotten' what they had originally come for and had spent their 'precious' time tenaciously distracted by Robert's 'vision-by-design' which for Robert's purposes includes only Robert himself.
- 190. Xavier Stewart Dent - October 20, 2010
Here's an example of how repeating a pre-digested and carefully worded message over a period of years can brainwash devoted followers.
- 191. nige - October 20, 2010
Somehow, I was reflecting on that famous saying by REB, that G-r-rd H-v-n gabbled on about as a justification for being an 'enabler' for REB…..
"Consciousness is not functions".
Of course, this has been interpreted in the FOF by such sayings as "Robert is conscious, so he is above the laws of ordinary men".
Sorry but in my opinion, this is such a load of 'spheroids'! If evolution is an actuality, it should mean that an ascending level of consciousness should imply more control and 'reserved' actions. REB has become worse in action and more out-of-control.
What are the circumstances that prevent FOF members from seeing this? Perhaps the ever-repeated expression that, as 'members of a conscious school', they have a special place in the Universe, and are the only ones to 'go to Heaven'. Most of us 'out' have seen that this is just not true.
What do others think?…..Nigel.
- 192. WhaleRider - October 21, 2010
As far as intellectual growth and the emotional maturation processes are concerned, I have found it more productive and livelier to think of our consciousness in terms of expanding and contracting, rather than in terms of ascending or descending.
It helps remove the artificially imposed, authoritarian, hierarchical structure out of the way.
I'd say that at either end of the spectrum of consciousness is the broad expansion of consciousness similar to what one might experience in a full blown manic state, and the contracted consciousness of depression and despair…and everything in between.
The concept of being more or less "asleep" or "awake" is misleading.
If I were to place a value metric upon a person to scale how much they have intellectually grown or emotionally matured, it would not be a measure of their "level" of their consciousness which fluxuates by nature, but other qualities: among them the ability to accept themselves as flawed, the ability to take responsibility for their feelings, the ability to be compassionate and empathize with others, the ability to accept feedback from others graciously, the ability to set and maintain boundaries with others and oneself, and when presented with compelling evidence, the ability to admit one was wrong and be open to new ideas.
- 193. nige - October 21, 2010
191 WhaleRider
Point taken, graciously…..Nigel.
- 194. Xavier Stewart Dent - October 21, 2010
"End of the Earth Postponed"
So much for 1998 and 2006, and now 2012 is looking shaky.
- 195. WhaleRider - October 21, 2010
Fellowship Donates Millions
Odwalla House (AP)- In what the group calls, "a humanitarian gesture", apparently the Fellowship of Friends, Inc., a quasi-religious, multinational corporation, also known as Pathway to Presence, inconspicuously squirreled away in the Sierra foothills of Northern California, has shamelessly donated almost three million dollars to the one and only group it admires the most…itself.
"It's the best we can do," said an aging Linda Trelliswire, longtime spokesfollower and commandant for the group, "we have some vague inkling that it's been a difficult year for everyone else on the planet. But we really had no choice. All our photoshopped research of world art history shows us that we are the only people on the planet special and pretty enough to receive the money. We feel very lucky."
When asked who will profit from the sizeable amount of cash it has accumulated, she stated, "Our young male membership is still going down in America, and that seems to make our gay leader, Robert Burton, very, very happy and present, at least for a few moments. We have been taught to further enable that trend and use the money to fund our recruiting and cultivation projects in other countries, where the unemployment level of needy young males is much higher than in the US."
Critics say it's just business as usual on the funny farm.
- 197. WhaleRider - October 21, 2010
The question is, nige and friends, can we truly accept ourselves and be comfortable existing as beings witnessing in ourselves the yin and yang of expanding and contracting consciousness?
Do humans really need to continue crucifying themselves in pursuit of the unattainable and unsustainable…someone else's idealized version of what perfected consciousness should be, according to self-serving religio-crats like Burton?
Masochism is surely not the road to enlightenment and sadism isn't either.
Not to mislead you…are the "lights" completely out when we are "asleep", and if so, then why do we remember ourselves in our dreams?
If enlightenment is only reserved for people like Burton and his ilk, then it really doesn't matter, either way we're fucked, right? Better to just suck it up, go with the flow, and stay in the cult.
Well, I'm not buying it.
I have found that when one's basic needs are met, one can witness the extraordinary occurring everyday for ordinary people like you and me…if one is looking for it and can view oneself, others, and the world with compassion.
- 199. nige - October 21, 2010
197 WhaleRider
I often go to Whitman's works in moments needing sustenance – no need to quote here. For me, it is enough that I am giving of my skills – and that needs attention to what I am doing and attention to what my students are doing. I actually posted on Cynthia Haven's Book Blog, that I was happy that she had found something robust and worthwhile in which to be involved. So…..
It seems to me that it might be something worthwhile in itself if ex-FoFers could just describe a little of what they have found that keeps them going…..Nigel.
- 200. nige - October 21, 2010
197 WhaleRider
I often think of consciousness as knowing what you are doing and knowing why you are doing it – not just as something that could be drug-induced and psychadelic…..Nigel.
- 201. Golden Veil - October 21, 2010
Some animals may be more compassionate and enlightened than humans.
- 202. Golden Veil - October 21, 2010
If the dog and the fish in the sea can be friends, why can't we?
The labrador swims and cavorts daily with the dolphin in the frigid harbor waters of Tory Island. Tory is a small island off the southwest coast of Ireland, in Donegal County. The dog is a pet of the owners of the Tory Hotel. Padraig, the owner of the hotel, said that the dolphin had been coming to the harbor for over a year and a half, seeking the dog's company, possibly after the death of its mate, who he believes might have been the lifeless dolphin that washed up on Tory's south shore.
- 203. WonderingWhosWatching - October 22, 2010
201/202 Golden Veil:
When it comes to being in a school and swimming with others, I would rather swim with dolphins and canines than with the likes of Robert Earl Burton!
On that basis, The Fellowship of Friends, Inc., a quasi-religious, multinational corporation, also known as Pathway to Presence, is no school, IMHO.
- 204. nige - October 22, 2010
And the Fellowship of Friends is the exact opposite of what it pertains to be – it does not lead to personal and humanitarian reality – it is all FALSEHOOD!!!!!…..Nigel.
- 205. paul g - October 22, 2010
whalerider 197 and the rest
It must be that there is a real despair in us all at this time that so many cults thrive. I think it is to do with the overdose of information we have right now and the exhaustion of christianity and other religions at this time. These cults are mirrored a little by Fascism, Communism, Fundamentalism and all the other isms, produced by a kind of lust for truth as an answer to all the mess personal and external. We still carry with us cruel gods from the past and maybe from our psychology as children. So there is this idea found in many cults that because this enlightened being is on another level, he has earned the right to prey on his follows, which serves them right for needing him/her in the first place. It's just another form of 'teaching'.
And what a vile corruption it is to say 'Our teacher needs to drink semen in order to accumulate the love to lord it over us and lead us to a comparable state of being which we most fervently desire and pay for on a monthly basis. Meanwhile, we serve him as the ignorant serfs we are because he has a different 'level of consciousness" …We might fall down in the dark and never get up again and find our way? But most of the time he's nice to most of us, provided we have the money/semen to pay him.
You won't find students contributing to this blog. Everyone will tell them their wrong, and they have made their choice now until further revelations. Opposition without authority will only strengthen their faith and resolve. Their probably horny at the thought of all this opposition and attention, it makes staying together all the more urgent and clingy exciting. Until then, in the words of Bill Hicks, they'll continue to 'suck satan's cock'.
- 206. paul g - October 22, 2010
follows? Swallows? followers? Swallowers?
- 207. Golden Veil - October 23, 2010
205 paul g.
"Opposition without authority will only strengthen their faith and resolve."
Do you mean that the Fellowship of Friends / Pathway to Presence "students" will not to listen to those who oppose Burton because the opposers do not follow another "authority?" Or that the opposers will not be listened to because they are not "authorized" by direct Gurdjieff or Ouspensky lineage, like The Gurdjieff Foundation, or something else?
Where is the authority? I think mine is my conscience.
- 208. paul g - October 23, 2010
206 golden veil
Well, Burton is the sole authority in the fellowship. Fellowship students wouldn't, as far as I'm aware, put much stock in an external fourth way type as it's really a school of Burton. What I meant was that something authoritative, like somebody valued by the group speaking out, or something definite, like a court case or some other form of proof or external investigation might jolt a few more to wake up as the blog seemed to. A book would be useful, I bet there's someone writing one right now.
The conscience of students is tied to their conception emotionally and intellectually that it has something to do with being in the 'school'. It's a protective shell that blocks out many possibilities of awareness, including clear conscience.
I think students may be 'more awake' in their world, the problem is it's not an authentic one. So what they have is a kind of imitation of a concept handed out to them by a kind of shops dummy 'conscious being,' according to the concept sold to them by the department store that makes the dummies. It's brand loyalty. They're invested heavily in it.
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