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This topic contains 165 replies, has 1 voice, and was last updated by Renee Jordan 9 years, 7 months ago.
if memory serves, it was revealed that Bryan's "zed" chromosome was damaged or incomplete, which implied why he was not like any of Marie's Children.
**UNdead/GirlCo – We'll eat your brains and look good doing it.**
I was just thinking about how Marie sounded a bit like a queen bee in some aspects- I was just thinking….
With bees, whenever a queen is born she is raised to a certain age & then sent out from the hive to form a new one. If they remain, the queen is stung to death. What if Marie was the same? What if she was sent out from another group similar to hers? After all, Nocturnals fit all sorts of different tales of monsters & things that go bump in the night.
Also, I was also thinking about the varied appearances of the Nocturnals. Some of them look quite a bit like other species, but isn't it true that every living thing contains traces of everything that's come before? It could explain why there's so many different critters in the pack.
But yeah… LOVED the book! I can't wait for the next one to come out!
I loved how Sean Robertson got what was coming to him, I laughed so hard when i listened to that part.
Why only a fleeting mention of "first born" I really wanted to hear where he was holed up and a little on his next strategy to set up the next book….
"Who is Number One?", "You, are Number Six!", "I am not a number, I am a free man!"
Scott will have the oportunity to fix that in the rewrite.
I AM not just junkie, I AM a pusher man & I AM Sadocks Tangent Brother.
So I know I am a little late to the party and all, but hey a junkie is still a junkie. Now my one question that leaves a small hole in the plot is what ever happened to Spidey? Hey gets his arm blown off by pookie, then vanishes while Bryan is busy with Clyde the Glide. Where does he go? You would think he would be mentioned somewhere either returning to Sly, or something.
Other than that and the few things that have already been brought up, wonderful job as always my lord and master FDO. I love this story, and can not wait to hear about a sequal coming our way.
[colorteal]Procastination is the art of keeping up with yesterday[/color]
The Irishman from Ohio
I could see if he had a major blow-out with his father. but Pissed off, I don't completely buy it. mistrusting, maybe. a little more back story into family dynamics could show the reason.
I AM not just junkie, I AM a pusher man & I AM Sadocks Tangent Brother.
of the junkies!
– "When I get a little money I buy books. If any is left over, I buy food and clothes." – Erasmus
I am new to this whole podcast thing. Nocturnal turned me into a junkie. I liked the Aggiee jones stuff. I think that it should stay.But I dont understand why Brien would feel so much rage at his father.yes he just found out being adoped and being different But all the history and respect he had had for his dad becomeing unraveled so quickly… I didn't buy it. I think the whole reson Brian wasn't like the rest of Maries children or even Rex, was that he grew up in a functional family and that is why he could be a cop, evole into a hero, a savior.
I might be totally wrong, but now having completed listening to Nocturnal, I thought from the story that the Savior himself was like Brian a Family member who was probably saved long ago.
It seems that these "normal" kids were destroyed by the family… or brought to the surface to be raised by those people they deemed well…
Anyway, awesome story FDO… I can't wait to buy it….
Aggie was given the baby, money, and a slip of paper with THREE addresses. One was Roberta's who got Rex, second was Brian's dad, and the third… who was that? What about other "kings" what were liberated over the twoo hundred years of Marie's Children underground kingdom? Hmmm, possible spinoff or TV miniseries?
PS What about a Nocturnals VS the Infected??? Think about it!
Rex grew up abused and misused
bry-bry was brought up in a loving home
same potential in different growth enviroments
you dare mention the Hutchinsssssssss on our FDO'S message board? Brave my man brave!
Didnt scott say before the novel came out(in some interviw or another) that maries nightmares cause the wierd mutations? I did wonder why this wasnt explored or even mentioned again…did I just dream it up?
with mr. zaphod
thing either in subsequent books or in the rewrite this information will come out or clarified.
that is why having so many editors in your 'employ' really helps.
Im sure our FDO will tie up all the plot lines…there is so much more story to tell after all
Hell yah there were loose ends but you know what? it didn't affect my enjoyment of the novel. When it comes out in print im guessing its gonna be a two fer though because our FDO wants us to be happy!
he felt that all beings of maries children were evil.
so maybe he just assumed since he felt Brian as "family" he was evil as well.
I don't remember there being anything about savior and any of the previous infants like
rex there were sent into the world.
as far as the possible pre-quel/sequel, Scott did say he wanted us to post things like this that would need shoring up in such a book here, so that's why I did =P
The Saviors still need explanation though, the hyper sensory awareness they exhibit makes them something other than human, but also not part of Marie's children, it's a subject that needs to be looked at.
The empire will fear my sexy coils!
Savior sensed Brian as an enemy, not an ally…..
The empire will fear my sexy coils!
although I might be completely wrong. But it won't be the first (or last time):
1. Be patient! There might be a prequel. (And there might not be.) 2. See answer 1 above. 3. See question 2 above. Animals, especially dogs, seem to want to pee on everything. (You might have noticed.) 4. Their mother's womb.
– It's a cold world and this is life.
With regards to some of your questions.
1) there was a discussion about Marie see this link
2) In genetics there are several different sex-determination systems XY – us, XO – some insects, ZW – birds, insects and some others. Although the chromosomes don't look like Z or W, my guess is that Scott is using a take off of this system!
"Well. I'll tell you what. You gonna kick it with me. Or I'm gonna kick you out. What you think of that?" Sister Mary Clarence
are they the kings that would never be king?
But here are my main issues
1- Who is Marie Latrelle? how did she get like this?
2- why do zed's usually get aspects of animals? what about the zed chromasome makes this happen?
3- Why did Marie's Children urinate on everything? Was this a way of 'counting coup'?
4- Where did the Saviors come from? They exhibit a supernatural sensing ability if nothing else, so it's not simply a question of people deciding to fight back and learning the weaknesses of Marie's Children
The empire will fear my sexy coils!
dont want robin to die what better to fuel a savior to mercilessly slaughter the only people who are your true family then to have said family merc your girlfriend.
who gives a F**k about the nuclear war, let bombs explode because thats what they're for
what she said…………
there were several subplots and story lines started and never finished in any form,like the ones mention above
some were informational (like were did marie come from? of course this could be answered in addition stories) and left us hanging, some were secondary storylines and others were just curiousities with no explanations
First, I want to say thank You for all your hard work this year…. Nocturnal is great! I love the idea that you ask for fan input. And there are many great ideas posted here….
I agree with the need for more background and DO NOT kill Robin. I think Bryan (and the readers) should be constantly be wondering if she will survive. You could even have some of the characters watching over her while she lays in critical condition during Bryan's battle…have her and Bryan take the baby from Aggie to raise.
I think the chief should have two girls but one is adopted… or the chief is a Zed and she passed the Zed onto one of the twins.
What happens when the Zeds have children?
There is definitely a need for some strong female characters….maybe the old savior or Jessup could be changed.
I still don't understand how the boats got underground or what information was found out about Maria when Mr. Smith did research.
How tall was First Born? I thought he was 6"10 but in one episode you said he was over 7 feet tall. His description is too vague…. all I got was he was a big tall strong person that could jump.
What was the urine thing? Marking of territory? An act of humiliation?
Do their capes smell like urine so they could keep humans away? Is it a male pheromone thing?
Do u know there are tribes where the females urinate on the male teen boys as part of the right of passage ritual?
The groom walk….sorry it was silly. Not the idea but letting loose a bunch of kids with a fork and a knife…. all I could think of was "chuckie". If the ritual is to teach them to hunt then maybe have a few of the older kids surround and overpower the prey and then the little kids could come out with the forks and knives….they could be cheering or chanting in the background….
You Rock! I am a junkie…. I have only recently been introduced to the world of podiobooks (although I have been listening to audio books for MANY years) and I have to let u know I listened to your story because your arch nemesis recommended it…. on his podcast.
I really like these ideas!
2 books, why not 10 books. The scary truth is that we'll buy as many books as the FDO puts out. That's how much power the man has over us. God-like, ultimate power :p
I just finished this one, and wow, what a book. I think making the podcasted book into 2 is the best. Keep the two lines together. I agree that dividing the book at the rescue of Saviou from the hospital is a good idea. Leaves everyone "Cliffhangered" and you can't go wrong with those. I would be waiting with bated breath for the sequel for sure.
While getting rid of the dreams would reduce the word count, they are necessary for the problem that Firstborn is facing with all the young nocturnals haveing the same dreams. Brian is one of the young nocturnals, even if he is slightly different, and therefor is going to be sharing in these dreams. Its sets up drama and intrigue from the very beginning.
Melisa Dyer
I believe the anwer to your question lies in Stone's Punnett square he did of the genetics of Marie's Children. He also pointed out that Brian's DNA Zed was stunted and maybe so is Saviors and that's what make them different. I agree that this maybe needs to be addressed in more detail. Which will work out well when the FDO spilts it into two books.
Melisa Dyer
I see several other Junkies have theories on the differences, but I feel the story would benefit from expanding on them. Even if it's just in how they grow up & encounter The Family.
I keep thinking that it would be better to have some kind of difference beyond that though.
If anyone needs me, I'll be in the Angry Dome.
Ok, so I get that the regular looking guys (Rex, Savior, Brian) are/were all Marie's Children. What is confusing to me is what really is the difference between them. The real sticking point is that if Rex was considered The King…why wasn't Savior when he was younger or Brian? We know that Brian had the same type of dreams as Rex. Was it just the differences in how they first come into contact with The Family? Hope that made sense what I am asking.
If this was addressed in the story somewhere and I missed it, someone point me to the episode number and I'll listen again. Ditto if it was addressed somewhere in this thread, since I didn't read every comment.
If anyone needs me, I'll be in the Angry Dome.
Gotta say I'm feeling the two book idea. The rescue from the hospital could be ramped up a bit to make it a good ending for the first book. Add a bit more combat and shooting maybe?
Also, you gotta keep the Stephen 'The Breeder' Kilbride character, he was really well done :p
That's a sweet idea! Seth, where are you? Check in, bro!
– "I'm risking my life, for people I don't like, for reasons I don't quite understand." – Homer
Love me some Jane Gannon. Since Jack didn't go back to her maybe we could hook her up with Brian!
"Well. I'll tell you what. You gonna kick it with me. Or I'm gonna kick you out. What you think of that?" Sister Mary Clarence
How's it going, man. You know what we need–more JP (that's Jack Palms you other junkies, not me) showing up in some of Sig's story lines. I know the Mustang already made a showing!
– "I'm risking my life, for people I don't like, for reasons I don't quite understand." – Homer
ok i know that there are all kinds of ways to reedit the story line to reconnect certain plot threads but a common theme that im seeing is that people are saying to reduce the page count, ia to remove the Aggie James subplot and put that in book 2. while that acheives the goal of shortening the word count it also gives some of the story elements a kick in the teeth. First off all of these things are happening at the same time which is easy to do in one book, hell its easy to do in two. the problem i see with this is that a portion if not all of a second book would be a retread through a familiar time line. and i cant speak for anyone else but after the ending of that book i want to see what happens next not what else happend at the sametime. as for the plot holes that open up here are a few that i can think of off the top of my head but keep in mind this is removing these things without rewriting them in some other way (im a junkie not a miracle worker). the parts where hilary is explaining to Aggie that she has been saving the babies who could be king get taken out, which means we are not lead to the conclusion that Rex is somehow majorly important to maries children until much later in the book. the blanket that proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that Brian and Erickson were related to the baby thus related to maries children.
on a more critical thinking level i think this book was more about people seeking redemtion more than anything else. Brian looking for redepmtion for being killing people and it not effecting him. that really got into his head and now he knows why he did it. each person that he killed was to SAVE the life of not just another person but other cops. anyone who knows anybody thats in that kind of organization weather it be cops, firefighters, or the military knows that any true member of their ranks is willing to lay down their life (or better yet make someone else pay with theirs) for one of their own. Robin was seeking redemption for thinking with her head and not her heart and it almost cost her the man that she was truely ment to be with. First Born was trying to protect his people like he had since the first king had pushed them to the brink of extinction (maybe). he was powerless to stop what happend when the first king and i get the feeling that he had made a personal vow to never allow his people to suffer and be slaughtered openly, even if it ment killing the king.
and then we have aggie james, on the surface a heroin junkie homeless cat who was destined to become a man-stew. on the inside a tourtured soul, seeking redemption for his inability to stop one of the greatest personal tragedies i think one can experiece, the murder of your wife and child, right in front of you no less. that will fuck a guy up big time. Aggie was lost drifting through the oceans of time without a purpose and then one night monsters spirited him away to a terrible place where nightmares didnt hide under your bed they jumped through your fuckin window with a .44 automag. and in this terrible place a child was born. a child that reminded him o so much of his own child that was taken from him much to soon. he was again given a purpose. to me the way that aggies plot thread was left was perfect. this man who found redemption in the form of a child walked away from sheer chaos into tranquility. personally if aggie isnt in a sequal sure ill be a bit disappointed but at the same time its ok because he found his redemption.
or something along those lines idk
I'm going to hell because i need a vacation
My suggestion is the big hum-dinger of a climax this series will have, make it happen in broad daylight, why? Because you can only fit a certain amount of action in one night. Also people can relate better to a daylight situation, and it would not be expected with a title like Nocturnal.
First of all, great book. Loved the story, the intrigue, the developing storyline of the Nocturnals. The ultimate conclusion with Rex/Sly/First Born was great. Well done. Very cool that Rex got killed.
My thinking is that you can make this a 500 page book (max) without too much trouble. You take our the Aggie James part. Sure, it was cool and I loved the things about him in the holding cell inside "Home" but save that for book 2. Mommie and home and Aggie's story goes in book two. Save it. Ultimately the details about Johnny Chu and his family going down one by one–it's great, but doesn't fit in here.
You can also ease back on the stuff about Brian having the dreams of the killings. Put it in Brian's POV as a cop finding out about the cases and that streamlines a bunch. What about the boys pissing all over their first kill scenes? Why? Why was Brian getting the boners? I think Scott just wanted to use the word "boner" or "erection" a bunch. He gets his rocks off like that. Also, if Brian's not having them dreams it makes his relationship with Pookie more solid, which I think it needs to be for Pooks to follow him through to the end.
Anyway, just a few thoughts. The good thiing is there's a ton of great stuff here and now it's just time to pick out what's the most awesome–or 500 pages of most-awesome. You can do it. Go for three books or two, but cut a bunch out of here and put it into later books. I think the ending here is great for the end of Book 1. Book 1 is Rex. What's book 2? Brian's back story? The story of the Nocturnals and their home?? Maybe… you decide, my king.
Seth "Palms Daddy" Harwood (OJ)
author of the Jack Palms Crime series find it at sethharwood.com buy Jack Wakes Up on May 5th to Shake 'Em Down!!!
just because he has the "potential" to be a king doesnt mean that hes going to take up the mantle of king. Rex had basically spent his whole life wondering what it would be like to be the leader of his own group so when he was presented with the oppurtunity to lead the very people that felt like "his" people he felt that his natural role was that of the King. If you remember it took Rex's plan actually starting to work in order for First Born to become his follower. Everyone else was so enrapured by the idea and proficey of the king that when the one who smelled like a king came along no one seemed to question his leadership. we know that the influence of the king isnt as powerful as it is perceived because if it was i dont think Sly would have been able to pull of the assassination.
question scott, was the feeling of family what was alerting Marie's Children to Saivors presense and just no one made the connection because of their fear?
I'm going to hell because i need a vacation
while relistening to the whole of nocturnal on the way to visit parents and family over Christmas noticed a few things with regard to the plot and wrote them on a post it note and then lost said post it note. I can remember a few:
Rex and Roberta
Roberta said to pookie and brian that she moved to the city cause it would be a better place
Rex thinks about how he has been in many foster homes but roberta was on his birth certificate.
Couple of other ideas for expanding if you felt like going to 3 books.
I can't remember her name but the chick in the archives, her back story with what happened with the Grand Park Slasher that caused her to cry in the car.
Big tonda murphy, BMB, and Pookie's stories about being rescued by brian,
Just my $0.03AUD worth.
and actually followed through and i now have my very own heavily customized savior cross tattoo. ill get a pic up as soon as i can. i basically took the pic off of the wiki page and told the guy what i wanted and he made it happen and its fuckin sick if i do say so myself
I'm going to hell because i need a vacation
Scott, you need to ask why 700 pages is too long when Harry Potter gets away with it all the time, and 300 of those pages are spent sitting in the woods doing nothing or debating whether Harry should talk to Dumbledore. And your book has the benefit of being an original idea. I will end that rant there.
If you were to cut back, the whole Johnny Yee (or whatever his name was) stuff could be cut back. Don't even show him getting attacked, just have Brian and Pookie investigate it. Similarly, don't show Aggie being taken. Aggie wakes up in the cell and sees Johnny. Their conversation fills in how they got there. Johnny's whole family can be left out too, just him and Aggie. Johnny gets nabbed and then Hillary takes Aggie to see the grooms walk and hands him the baby. Have Aggie get caught in the subway and move his story straight to the hospital from there. Aggie wakes up due to the fighting and uses that as a distraction to steal the baby and flee. Leave it hanging like that so it can lead to your plans for the sequel (King 2.0?).
If you have to split it into two parts then I agree that moving that stuff into the second book is the way to go. That way the only hint at their underground lair that we get in the first part is when Rex is presented as King. I will have to go back and relisten to the story as a whole to see if I can find anywhere else to split it.
I will say though, I was actually a little bit sad when she died, which shows that I was invested in the character, which is the sign of a good author! At least in my humble opinion!
I only meant for the storyline, she had to die for him to find his way.
I love a strong woman in my books, as well.
I liked Robin a lot too and the book needed another strong female character to kick a little butt! Just my humble opinion . . .
which child would our FDO not kill.
my experience with Sigler, everyone can and does die.
What ever happened…
I had those same questions. Hope to find out. NOW…
2. Kinda have a crush on Robin here myself, but She had to go, how else would the Ninja be
able to find his way to become the saviour.
3. Sequel?
Like how Cheria thinks…
no because it was in the bag that Nick had given to the Russians. If youll remember he had to go back to the boat to get it. Earlier First Born had seen Nick climbing up the back of the ship which is what prompted him to get off of the yacht
I'm going to hell because i need a vacation
I was thinking the same thing when I first read that but thought I might have missed something since I listened to the last few episodes when I was at work. Glad to know someone else heard the same thing I did!
"Well. I'll tell you what. You gonna kick it with me. Or I'm gonna kick you out. What you think of that?" Sister Mary Clarence
wow. I totally missed that.
The last I heard the dog was laying on the seat of a wheelchair in the basement of the Jessups, yo!
Alder picking out shotgun pellets….
Yeah, don't kill the flipin' dog, Siggy.
The wife and I listened to the whole book on the drive from Binghamton to Chicago and back. 24 hours of driving; 24 hours of Siggy….
- The story arc about Zoe and her family and even the part played by the twins can be a whole lot less complicated. It's nice detail and back story, but does little to propel the story. Although Pierre biting off her hubby's head is AWESOME. You have to leave that. Oh, and does Pierre have to die? Really? He's the Pooks to Sly's Ninja. He's dreamy.
- The extraneous detail about the gang wars and most of Lanza can be trimmed without losing too much in the content arena, even though it creates a nice counter-point to Tricky Dick.
- Where are all of the girl monsters? Chicks can be scary, too. I'm married, remember? I know just how scary they can be. Can the Zeds procreate without Marie? How are Erickson and his father related to Marie?
- The whole BoyCo boys breaking Rex's arm is much too violent. It must remain in the final draft AS IS. My wife was literally wriggling in her seat knowing it was coming and you just took your good ole time working up to the ultimate broken bone. Simply genius. She was so wanting you to hurry up and "just get it over with." You are a mastermind.
- Claudio's role is well-done. "Cockaty Twat" is classic Sigler. It may just have to be my new safety word.
- If you're going to have so many seemingly unrelated looking monsters with very few common attributes, you should create some linkage in the Zed that allows for such diversity to make the whole monster thing more believable. Yes, I just said that. Why is one hairy and one scaly and one has volatile burps and one has 6 arms?
- You used the phrase "Nothing at all" three times too close together there in episode 34 and 35-ish. Couldn't help but think of that Simpson's episode: "It's like I'm wearing nothing at all. Nothing at all. Nothing at all." At least you didn't use it as much as Dan Brown used "incredulous" and "stopped short" in his Code story…. erg.
Thanks for continuing to kick ass and take names.
More, please.
I scourged myself. That said, there is at least a full-on field goal attempt with a baby in a Sigler story! That's got to count for something.
– "I'm risking my life, for people I don't like, for reasons I don't quite understand." – Homer
you feel sufficiently ashamed.
You're just like me! Sometimes I get so excited about Sigler's stuff that I only fix half of my hair!!!!!
"Well. I'll tell you what. You gonna kick it with me. Or I'm gonna kick you out. What you think of that?" Sister Mary Clarence
did die. Oh wait, that was in Hutchinsss book. Never mind…
– "I'm risking my life, for people I don't like, for reasons I don't quite understand." – Homer
Why do children never die in US stories once they have been given some character? They are allowed to die only if it is the beginning of a book or they are very sketchily drawn. Is this a big taboo? – and Scott has followed the crowd…..
Minor complaint on a great novel with a film-style blockbuster finish. Looking forward to a sequel.
I enjoyed the book, which kept me very interested and reckon splitting it into 2 books is a great idea. The world that has been created here comes across to me as being very similar to the fantasy genre, by which it's almost impossible to contain in a single novel. Fantasy usually requires trilogy's of breath-taking grandeur. I feel the the world of the Nocturnals is the same.
It would be really sweet to hear more about the sub-plots that were started up in this book and instead of taking away I'd rather you added in, particularly about the original battle between the Saviours and Marie's Children. That really intrigued me and I suspect could even be a book in itself at some point. Others have mostly mentioned the other ones, such as Biznass and so on. i guess this is why there are going to be sequels. Awesome!
I'm a serious fan of the Saviours choice of weaponry, mostly as I don't like guns. Guns are loud and draw attention, people aren't as likely to use them. Plus, things like knives are much more up close and personal. As are Axes. Not the most graceful of weapons but seriously, who doesn't shit themselves in the face of an axe wielding cape wearing psychopathic killer? Probably more use as a handaxe in conjunction with a knife but hey, it's all good. Bows though, awesome, even Rambo had one of them 🙂
I think this is my favourite story yet even though it's only an early (1st?) draft.
I also loved Pookies character development. At the start of the book I really did want First Born to tear his arm off and bitch slap him with his own hand. By the end of it though I was kind of glad he made it. He turned out pretty cool.
Can't think of stuff you could take out to make it shorter for publication. I'd pick up the whole 700 pages and read it. I tend to side with what seems to be most of the other posters and run with splitting it into 2 books.
Death, chaos and mayhem, the music of the night
what happened to the red Mustang. I wanna know!
– "I'm risking my life, for people I don't like, for reasons I don't quite understand." – Homer
I have to say I loved Nocturnal. Real edge-of-the-seat stuff. I'd buy it even if it was 1000 pages long! However I have to say that I am really mad at thr FDO for leaving me in the lurch by not tying up some loose ends!
1. What happened to Aggie and the baby?
2. What happened to Mr Biznass and Black Mr Burns?
3. What happened to the Jessops?
4. Did Brian make up with his Dad in the end?
5. Who will be the new Chief of Police (always assuming that Amy is too badly injured to carry on in her job).
And then some suggestions:
1. The horrible, nasty sub chief should have met a grisly and gory end, preferably at the hands of Brian after what he did to him. A real missed opportunity for some extra violence and the chance to see Robertson get what was coming to him.
2. Don't kill Robin! Edit her death out of the book! I demand it!
3. I would have liked Saviour to succeed in killing First Born, even if he did have to die.
4. I don't think the gangster stuff was strong enough in the beginning part of the book, only towards the end. If it's going to be made into more than 1 book, flesh out the gangster parts in the first book.
I'll probably think of some more stuff but that's my $0.02 for now!
I for one would like to hear more of Brian's back story with especial reference to the people he killed in the past…
I have to disagree with this – our FDO has showed mercy to the children here. If the Chief had died, they would be orphans as their poor Dad got eaten by Pierre.
Something I noticed, did First Born see the inflated raft in the water before it was recovered and inflated by Nicolai?
Yeah, I can definately see this as two different books. The scene with Brian saving the Savior in the hospital would make a good finale for the first book.
As for the Aggie stuff, yeah, it could definately benefit from the split. To be honest, while the long time between chapters probably didn't help, I had completely forgotten about his story until it was mentioned in this thread.
One thing that I've noticed is that the mob elements could be tightened up a bit. I don't think they made that much of an impact on the story until the very end–the story definately slowed down during those parts. Maybe some reworking on the placement, plot, and maybe some of the characters could really make those parts shine.
That's about all that's coming to mind. Overall, an excellent story, good sir, I eagerly await the day I can buy this bad boy.
When the hull of the Victory ship is breached, the water is coming in like a super fire hose. That's ok for a submarine, but not a boat. Not even a ship.
I don't know what the draft of the J.J. is, but let's just say it's 10 feet at the keel. That would be pretty damned deep. The pressure there would be about 4.32 PSIG. Compare that to your garden hose at 30 to 40 PSIG. Fast rising water in a sinking ship is freaking scary, but not really violent. Ok. I stole a plot point, but I'll give back.
Sinking ships scream. Loads are shifted in ways never anticipated by the engineers. Bulkheads buckle. Pipes and cables are pulled through holes as equipment shifts. It's a noisy, scary place to be. Not to mention Leonardo DiCaprio yelling "Rose" every 3 freaking seconds.
I humbly lay these pitiful, worthless thoughts at the feet of my Future Dark Overlord, and back slowly from his magnificence.
Tard could, as mentioned earlier, help Firstborn in his quest for righteous vengeance.
Tard could also be developed a bit more. I like Tard. He was one of the more sympathetic Nocturnals. I think a Tard could be used to remind us, and perhaps Brian, of the very human aspects of the monsters. In my opinion, Tard and Hillary were our lenses through wich to view one essential and powerful fact: the Nocturnals are a family trying to survive, dreaming to thrive.
The first one was back several episodes, when Rex first showed up as the King. There was a big point that First Born had made up that legend for the little ones, then there was suddenly a whole back story about the first king and how they almost took over San Fran.
Second point was in episode 40. First Born jumped to the King, picked up Devil Dan, and jumped away. The listeners (junkies) knew that Rex had learned to jump and other nocturnal stuff, but First Born did not. From his perspective, he should have taken Rex and left Devil Dan. He didn't know his King could jump himself.
My $0.02. Overall, a great story Scott! I love it and I would love to see it turned into another Crown book.
He was the Russian delivering weapons for the Russian mob, the guy who was hanging onto the O'brien when it left port.
He went back because he saw the Chief's kids, Mur and Tabs, and didn't want to let them drown.
I wouldn't want to be Sly when he comes back.
Loved the ending but Kill the chief, have her die from internal injuries from the concussive force of the bomb…yessssss mercy is for the weak
Pooky and Brian as hell raising teens…
Just the story of Erickson, the Jessups, and Perkmeier…
I did like the fact that their healing powers wane with age though… Makes you wonder about Erickson…
SynapticJam on Toast – hhhmmm… tastes like chicken (aka PUVJK) #3 in crack hits (Special? Ain't I just)
S.H.I.T. Award Recipient and all around uberjunkie!
I think there's a whole story left untold about the advent of Marie's Children: how they began, grew into the family we know, and how their "criminal" life evolved. A prequel!!!
– "I'm risking my life, for people I don't like, for reasons I don't quite understand." – Homer
The Irishman from Ohio
One technical observation–you talked about the yoke in the helicopter that Shirley flew; helicopters don't have yokes. They have cyclics and collectives. The cyclic is where the stick, control column or yoke sits in a fixed-wing aircraft. The collective sits beside the pilots' seats. I think this is my favorite story of all of them! Don't change a thing outside of the usual reduction in volume as the book goes through the editing process. (Didn't Stephen King go through a similar battle with his publisher when he wrote The Stand?) If they make you cut volume severely, maybe you can plan on releasing the "unedited" version later. There's a precedent!
– "I'm risking my life, for people I don't like, for reasons I don't quite understand." – Homer
Dont cut the book whatever you do! Split it if you must but I'd prefer to see one huge book.
IMHO so what if its 700 odd pages anyway? Tell the publisher that it will sell. For a quality book like this the amount of pages does not put me off, indeed the more pages the better as you know its not a quick read and so its worth the money.
If you do split it, I cant see where you can do it with the current story line easily so some changes may be needed, but I hope you do this by adding content and not removing it.
Whatever you do I have faith after years (is it years?) of listening to your stories that you will do the right thing for your drooling fans.
Sigler ate my degree in Inglich Litritchure
i want to know what happened the the BUM last thing I remember he garbed the baby and started running out of the hospital but it ended there.
The last couple of chapters were "edge of the seat" stuff. It was so cool I had to go back for a second listen. Would make a kick ass movie.
As far as triming down the story I would start with the conversations between Robin and Stone Mason. Too much info here and it starts to drag the momentum down.
If you break the story into two or three parts then cut back on Aggie James because you do not finish his story line which was
interesting but we never have closure with it.
Changes or Additions to consider:
Sub Chief Robertson needs to die a nasty grusome death. I don't care who does it or how it gets done but he deserves it big time. What a D-bag.
Brian needs to make at least one clean, slick and quick impressive kill on at least one monster. Every encounter seams to drag on with him just bearly getting past a confrontation before the next begins.
Find a way for Robin to survive. The Ninja needs to get laid.
What happens to Clyde? He needs to meet the maker.
Of course it is an awesome piece the way it is written and Scott just keeps getting better. It won't be long before the big take over.
Distance, accuracy and surface area are all important considerations but let's not forget stealth and cool points. Bows are relatively silent and a modern hero with custom bow/arrows as the primary weapon is just too cool.
Just finished the final chapter and I loved it! You asked for input, here goes:
The original crime scenes and the urine… Came on strong and fizzled out to mean very little. Dress it or drop it.
Aggie James. I wanted to see more of him and the baby. Interesting stuff.
Johhny (Yee?) (Woo?), whatever his name was; the Asian gangster: Didn't give a fuck. He can go.
Towards the end I thought You were going old school Matheson "I Am Legend" on us. Not any of the cocked-up movie versions but the original story idea. Brian/Savior etc have become the boogiemen hunter/slaughterers of the new race. A line more sympathetic to Marie's Children. Could be cool.
Overall, it's an outstanding story and considering it was released as it was being written, it's amazing there weren't any major plot issues. I guess the FDO just knows what the fuck He's doing!!!
Six days to Contagious, Twenty-six days to the Chicago book signing… I call shotgun on one of the plaid tanks!!!
Angie who? What did I miss?
Outstanding – I will download all the episodes again for a second listen. Has to be my favorite behind "The Rookie" But I think "The Crypt" is going to slug it out for number one to two. I love space Sci-Fi, so you know "The Passenger" from the Bloodcast is high on my favorite list too
The only thing I did not like was the dog getting killed. What kind of fraked up person kills a dog?
NOCTURNAL as it stands is pretty darn tasty. However, the question posed was what could be trimmed down or moved into a second (or third) novel. I gave my not so humble but pretty much useless opinion. You could leave the Asian syndicate completely out of the mix, and still tell quite a bit about the Nocturnals without revealing Marie or the Groom's walk. You could still show part of the lair, just not the main ship, for example.
Ultimately, of course, the decision is up to Sigler. He knows where the story is likely to go, so he'll know best where to trim and where to add. Whatever he comes up with will rule, of course…unless he takes another year to tell the story all over again 😀
thought end was great the only thing that slowed it down for me and everyone can blast me for it were the techno babble between stone mason and robin but when the book comes out in ill be there to buy my copys happy holidays
I remember when I first started listening to The Rookie that Scot said, "give me four episodes" and you'll be hooked.
It took one!
Nocturnal took four, I must admit.
But now it's my favorite. No make that 2nd favorite behind Earthcore, no wait, The Rookie is #1, Nocturnal #2, Ancestor #1, …. Never mind.
But seriously, can we get C.S. Lee of Dexter fame to play Pookie in the movie version?
–Head Librarian
The Irishman from Ohio
Just finished Nocturnal today and once again I feel like I have a new favorite Sigler book (It happens every time I finish listening to one). I've a couple things to bring up. I don't know how I'd feel if the whole Aggie / underground / grooms walk sequence was moved to a sequel. It was an integral part of the extermination of the Asian gang, gave a necessary back story to who the Nocturnals are, and utterly creeped me the fuck out. It would sadden me greatly to lose it from the first installment of the story.
I'm sure this would fall into the "loose plot threads that you are aware of" but I recall mention of a type of nocturnal known as a "Ringer." I assume it means "dead ringer for a human" but that should be elaborated on. How do they differ from kings / saviors, do they have skills or powers, etc. I am also still curious about the Nocturnal genetics and the implications; i.e. who fucks mommy to make the Jawas? (maybe un-fertilized eggs become jawas like how un-fertilized ant eggs become males) how bout to make ringers, kings, and saviors? If the majority of Marie's Children are male, where does Aggie's "kid" come from, and the same goes for Hillary.
And I know it's overwhelming to keep track of all your characters' names, but in ep 40 you called Jebediah Erikson "Jebediah Jessup." Come on Sigler, don't get confused on us.
I bow to you twowire. I don't think I can top that one.
"Well. I'll tell you what. You gonna kick it with me. Or I'm gonna kick you out. What you think of that?" Sister Mary Clarence
Kings come along more often than you think. It's definitely more often than 100 years, since Bryan and Rex are relatively close in age (20 years apart or so).
Couldn't tell you where it was, but it's explained that Firstborn has been killing any would be Kings as soon as they are born. He can tell them by smell. He knows what they can do, probably as both Kings and Saviors, so for the good of the family he's been eliminating them. Hillary, and possibly others, have been smuggling them out whenever possible. That's why Bryan and Rex survived, and I'd hazard a guess that's where the original Savior came from.
As far as why Bryan or Jedediah are Saviors and not Kings, I think it's a little of circumstance and choice. When they appear to the Nocturnals, they are radiating hate and destruction. They're blood traitors, and the Nocturnals can tell. Rex, on the other hand, wanted to belong to the family. He came to the Nocturnal nest peacefully, and as such was accepted as King. Had things been different, he could have very easily been a Savior and Bryan could have been King. That's just my take on it though. Your mileage may vary.
I was very impressed by "Nocturnal", especially given you were writing it as you were podcasting it.
To me, there were two distinct stories going on:
1) Rex and Bryan both discovering their heritage and choosing two distinct destinies that collided on the boat.
2) The "origin", such as it was, of the Nocturnals/Saviors/Kings. That includes the Groom's Walk and Marie, and mostly focused on Aggie.
As far as breaking the story up, I would recommend the following. Strip down the first novel to focus as much as possible on Bryan and Rex. Save the part with Aggie and the reveal of Marie until the second or even the third novel. I know that flies against your normal pattern of explaining the monsters, but in the case of a story that lends itself to a trilogy you can afford to leave the readers waiting. You can still point out the chromosomal abnormality, but keep its true nature quiet until the readers can truly appreciate just how horrific the source of the Children is (something that would come after they are truly immersed in the Nocturnal world).
I would imagine the sequence would go like this:
Book 1 follows Bryan and Rex as they discover their true natures. We introduce the monsters, do the whole crime syndicate story, but we don't get too deep into exactly -where- the monsters come from. It ends exactly where the podcast ended, with Rex dead and Bryan embraces his destiny as the Savior. We get a glimpse of the Nocturnal underworld, but we don't see Marie or the undreground ship.
Book 2 continues the story as you've envisioned it, but now we can add in Aggie's story and show how Bryan and Rex were rescued from the underworld as babies. I would even suggest not showing Marie yet…just have Hillary give Aggie the baby and show the Groom's walk (but not the conception scene) to give Aggie some motivation.
Book 3 finishes the story, but here we finally see Marie and how new Nocturnals/Kings/Saviors are conceived and born. The shock factor of Marie would go great with whatever finale you have in store.
Again, you've got a great story here. It's definitely epic enough to warrant a trilogy of books or more. As much as it pains me to admit it, you might even want to poke the brain of Hutchins and find out other ways to spread it out over three books, since he did a good job doing that with 7th Son.
Thanks for the entertainment, and I look forward to meeting you in Dallas next month 🙂
One of your best Scott, only negative thing i can say is that i really didnt care for Bryan's reaction when he learned he was adopted, he went from normal to psycho in an instant and how he acted to his dad seems completely against his previous behavior, or perhaps that has something to do with Bryan's general anger and agression as the story moves along, perhaps something to do with his powers "getting started"?
The wet suit guy had an important purpose. Think hanging on a boat waiting for his que!!!!!
"Well. I'll tell you what. You gonna kick it with me. Or I'm gonna kick you out. What you think of that?" Sister Mary Clarence
Nicky or Nicolai if you prefer… What was in the bag?
SynapticJam on Toast – hhhmmm… tastes like chicken (aka PUVJK) #3 in crack hits (Special? Ain't I just)
you need to listen to the last couple of chapters again.
Whats with the dude in the wet suit? why was he 'fishing' at 3 in the am?
he's gotta be a nocturnal. His speaking is very labored, and mechanical. He asked them if they had been to topeka and they said no. so he said that he's from topeka….you have to be retarded not to see the connection between him and the nocturnals
Mc B. Come on bro the guy is a tard what is one of the things you love about these books. The characters and their situation it practically demands someone named 'Tard'.
morewould than you wood think. Its a popular place though, once you get there Yule say "mayonnaise a lot of people here" 🙂
"[No matter where you go, there you are] – And Sigler knows exactly where there is! "
To make the story into two books, provide more back story on Maries Children in the 17th & 18th Century, some tales on how first born became the leader, and more story on Saviour!
and the baby get adopted by Brian's dad. I think it would be the best for all three of them. Get there hope's then kill them. I am definatly*ms* a Junkie.
The Irishman from Ohio
Tard could end up helping First Born clean their family of snakes. He could be a courier of info and supplies between First and Hillary. Tard may be slow, but even Tard would get pissed if HE witnessed the betrayal by Sly.
The Irishman from Ohio
I've always wanted to go to a farplace but never could afford it. Didn't know you needed morewould to go to a farplace.
"Well. I'll tell you what. You gonna kick it with me. Or I'm gonna kick you out. What you think of that?" Sister Mary Clarence
killed the Jeb Savior's adopted father infront of him. It might be mention on the Wikipedea*ms* site. Gmork kicks azz on updated that thing!
The Irishman from Ohio
Mc B. It finished on a high point it was exciting had me by the short hairs from page one the notion of two books is a good idea espcially if it means getting it published Thanx again.
we'll find out in the epilogue
… for reminding me of the "Tard's" name … he Nocturnal I was thinking of in my post. An interesting side character, though he does sort of fit a rather standard literary / movie theme of the thickheaded sidekick for a more dominant thug. That's why I'd love to see Scott tackle a similarly-brained character with a bit more complexity and nuance.
I noticed that quite a few people are advocating this and I've been thinking about it for a long time too. It's not uncommon for authors to give you parallel time information in subsequent books (I point to another of my favorite authors Anne McAffrey whose books overlap quite a bit). Aggie and what happens to him below the city isn't essencial to the main plot thread which is Pookie and Bryan and their escapades. That would cut a lot of pages I would bet and the saga on a whole would still work. It's also not that unusual for a book to start with a seemingly unrelated plot thread then have them overlap later on. Think about the Bryan story as an introduction to Marie's Children then in the second book we get all the history upclose and find out where the Saviors really come from. Or maybe you could release the Aggie etc. storyline as a shorter side novel in the Nocturnal Saga. 🙂
Nocturnal, even more than the other books has the potential for a HUGE saga with all the different kinds of monsters and the idea that there are other Saviors throughout the world. You definately have a monster of an idea here . . .
Where's tard?
SynapticJam on Toast – hhhmmm… tastes like chicken (aka PUVJK) #3 in crack hits (Special? Ain't I just)
What ever happened with Mrs. Clinton…err… I mean… Hillery and the Baby….
"I have much respect for Delhome's douchbaggery"
-Scott Sigler
Scott, This was great. Intense, action packed, funny. I like all the elements, it made for a great ride. You're right, the manipulation of Sly is pure evil genius! It took me by surprise! As for moving things around, you could likely move the under-the-bay portioon of the book to a second, leaving more room for further development of Marie as a character (through historical flashback) or what have you. I'd love to hear more about Aggie too.
The end stretched out a bit and I agree that while Brian didn't close the deal on Rex and 1st born himself, he did kick major arse for his first outting as a Saviour. Speaking of, I would love to know what revenge Jebadiah was referring to (even in a biref aside before 1st Born caps him). I think it's crappy how he dies too. He was a complete kick-ass nightmare to these people and that snake skinned scum bag's blood causes him to loose his balance in the end. THERE IS NO JUSTICE for that old dood! First Brian plants a knife in his gut, then 1st Born! NO JUSTICE!
Great story, CAN'T wait for at least ONE of the 5 sequels you're dangling out there you book tease!
I really enjoyed Nocturnal, Thank you! It "one" of my favorite stories of yours to date. I think the length of this story makes it suitable to be made it into 2 books. Areas that can be used to increase each book could be more origin info about Marie's Children, what happens to Aggie and more background on Brian. My only criticism is the amount of physical abuse the characters endure. Please don't misunderstand I am not saying reduce the violence……..heck no! My thinking is that even a being with the ability to heal more rapidly could not take the abuse Brian takes and still be adequately funcional. There just isn't (in my opinion) healing time to make it believable. It just one Junkies opinion. Again, thank you for the "fix", I am looking forward to 12/30 and am enjoying Contagious.
You better get after it, you've gotta a reputation to uphold!
"[No matter where you go, there you are] – And Sigler knows exactly where there is! "
Are that you singing???
But the Wife did tell me to get morewould for the farplace today. 🙂
"[No matter where you go, there you are] – And Sigler knows exactly where there is! "
1. In future volumes of the Nocturnal saga, Brian should learn enough more about the origins and history of the Nocturnals to start questioning his mission to exterminate them. it's one thing for him to have a natural emotional attachment to them because he's one of them in a way. It would be far more difficult for Brian if he started finding out how these mutants turned evil. I'm thinking decades, maybe hundreds of years of persecution by "normal" humans, leading to the Nocturnals' present twisted culture of depravity and death.
2. Okay … I'm not hassling you about your language, really I'm not … but I'd love to see you develop a bona-fide mentally retarded character who isn't a villain or a victim. You could have some really good, useful fun with that and make a point about how meaningful it is or is not to use terms like "retard". It's pretty clear at least one of the Nocturnals was "cognitively impaired" within the context of the Nocturnal society, but I'm talking about someone who is more or less a good guy or gal. Making it genuine and not cliched would be a real challenge, but you're a master!
Are that you singing???
You've never heard the word forst????? You've probably never heard morewould either!!!! You've got to get out more!!!!
"Well. I'll tell you what. You gonna kick it with me. Or I'm gonna kick you out. What you think of that?" Sister Mary Clarence
G-Man, You been sneeking into the eggnog again? 🙂
"[No matter where you go, there you are] – And Sigler knows exactly where there is! "
I will play the whole thing again and certainly buy the book. That Mommy is one slug of a whore that would hate to run in to.
A.K.A. O.D.B. The Old Dirty BastardAnonymous December 21, 2008 at 9:43 pm
Irish, great ideas in there, thanks. Yes, there are "cells" all over the place. Have they spread to Europe? South America? Only one person (me) knows for sure, and I ain't talkin'. All I will say is that there is a lot of targets for Bryan to practice up on, so he can start whipping more ass.
Forst I loved this book. and second, what happened to Aggie? I understand that he is book 2 material, but still just a little morewould have been good. Maybe some more biznass but I'm biased to that character.
Are that you singing???
hey i just want to say this book was awesome. i cant wait for the next one. i did have some questions but as i was reading the other posts u answered them so i dont have anything right now. cant wait till 12/30/08
Be forwarned I am an Ancestor fan. So I am bias to that book.
1.) Because of the length of the book, splitting it would be the best way to keep the most material. Two or three books wild be a could compremise for those who cannot sit down and read large novels like that. Keeping in mind that each book could be an individual story on its own. A stand alone complex if you will. I will agree ending the first book around the time Robin H. dies would be a good idea. I like the taxadirmists Ancestor reference. I like the Stone M. character. How he was "helping", Robin H. see through her mistakes and forcing her to confront her drug habit. I like his experience with Geneata*ms* and this could be a subplot for book two and or three. Just because Stone and his briefcase was erased from exisitience. Does not mean he did not E-MAIL or FAX compies of his and Robin's work to an off site local. The latest Black Berries and the like transmitt info in REAL TIME. If Mason was serious about Nobell Prize stuff, he would have thought of this for the beneift of himself, his apprentiance*ms*, and the safety of Homo-sapiens world wide.
2. The test for Noctrunals could be a hook for the final book. Magnus P. from Geneata*ms* could be use as a test sample. Hell, he cuold have been a Nocutrnal and never new it. He did hold off an Ancestor with his bare hands while wounded. Who else in the Siglerverse could be a Nocturnal?
3.Who says the Savior group has not had scientists working with them in the past? The Saviors have been around for at least 100 years. As far as we know, the founder of Geneata*ms* could have worked with the Savior group. He could have/ his father could have, gotten one hell fo a loan from them to start his company. Hell, he could have been laundrying money for them from for the Jessup family. The ones from the WahWah mountain range?
4.Hillary mention Mary's Children had cell's all over America. Is that just the USA or all of North America? Or all over the world? If so would they not have a larger finacial base? Would the cell be detected by cluster of Missing Persons, on the map? Or would they be in direct competition with Snips? In the long run Brian the Ninja K. would learn a lot from the Snips'. Agin would they be in competition for area, habitate, and secretie?
5.The FDO has the final say. We may be his Junkies and fans, but its his work.
Thank u for tolerating this rant from Irishman From Ohio.
The Irishman from Ohio
I think maybe the novel should be cut either just before or just after the Mommy revelation; I agree that seeing more of Savior vs Firstborn would be cool, which wold make their final showdown even more personal.
Maybe more explanation into how Bryan saved Pookie and the legendary duo Brookie was born 😛
But great effort Scott, definitely up there in your top fiction works so far
Since there are many kids out there like Bryan, and Rex, (Hillary has been smuggling kids for a very long time) so there must be many more of those out there that may or may not know who and what they are, ranging from mad anti -social killers to those who seem normal but will manifest certain behaviors as they come in contact with others. I am curious about Chief Zou's twins. something is up with Mur.
and there was such a build-up to Mommie… she really has to be significant, more than just a factory.
I want to know more about these nocturnals and the place they've carved out for themselves over the years. City officials, world leaders, etc.
I love the characters that we have come to know in this story, I just want to hear more about them, I would enjoy these characters fighting the nocturnals and interacting more, rather than the gangster characters… those that are still alive that is. Damn Robin for dying. she is dead, right? no cloning nocturnal lab under ground?
*I am the Rear Admiral but Sigler gives the Orders*
Nocturnal is my favorite of the Sigler smack…
What I think would be cool is to not kill Robin when you did… Let Brian and Robin get together & adopt the kid Aggie saved. Brian raises him as a savior, then Robin gets the axe, and the two "ninjas" go on a nocturnal killing spree…
Split the book in two at the hospital… Make that a more climatic fight where Brian saves the savior and then learns of his destiny.
I would also like to see some "prequel" stories. ie where the nocturnals came from and more savior vs. 1st born fights… Erickson was a bad ass and I would like to hear more of him smoking some monsters.
Thanks Scott.
Loved Nocturnal! Great story! I would rather see two books out of it than see you cut it down to one book. Especially since there are things that didn't get wrapped up, like Aggie and the baby that he is taking care of.
Be careful about moving much of the culture stuff to a second book. I like a little backstory and motivation myself.
I think it's what made Earthcore so good. We had a good idea what the Rocktopi motivation was.
It's my primary problem with Infected. Not enough Triangle motivation and backstory for me.
Nocurnal is just about right I think in that department. We know some but certainly not all
of their story.Anonymous December 20, 2008 at 12:19 am
Someone did a whip-ass Firstborn. Sly would be great, as would Pierre. You choose, you're ze artiste.
Move some of the culture to the second book. The longer you keep the mystery going, the more suspense you can build. Personally, I saw the backstabbing coming. Come on … symbolism people. How many times was "snakeface" used? The ultimate deceiver. Utterly brilliant. BMB should have more of a role. He's the one who would use the net to get intel. Also, it would be neat to tie in Coast To Coast AM. Even though only people in the US might get that reference, the show deals with mysteries, science, unexplained shit, the acult etc.
Move much of Mommy to the second book. My theory is that she can think, but age has it's price. Plus, she has to play second fiddle. Now she is just the factory. It will be interesting when the *new* savior has to go for her in the end. (Truly the end … no since I seem to remember you wanting to use NY as a setting.) I'd suggest Hillary somehow meeting The Ninja. Forced to on the one hand, thank her, and on the other, end her life. Make him watch the walk for himself. (I could almost see it as an under cover scheme. Someone plays the bum to get into the tunnels to get the process going etc.)
A common theme that exists is the struggle for power. Amy VS. Robertson. (The latter thinking the former dead.) If that can be kicked up a notch …
Highlight Bry-Bry's father a bit more. One would think that he knows more than just taking the orphoned kids. One would assume that he might even have knowledge of the Saviors … (hoping his son becomes one … instant motive for guiding The Ninja toward the police force).
I'm sure I'll think of more once I listen to the entire 40 ep Opus again during the time I write up the review.
Incredible work on Nocturnal! Doesn't quite unseat the rookie for me but its jockeying with ancestor for second.
As far as things to change/omit here it goes:
1. I'm deffinitely in the camp to move Aggie and some of the nocturnal culture stuff to the second book. Maybe Mr. Bizznass can give some of the bits just to get any needed points across.
2. Make Bryan (sp?) more of a badass. I mean he takes a LOT of punishment sure, but thats mostly what he does, get the crap kicked outa him by the Nocturnals. What happened to all his "ninja-ish" skills? I got that he is supposed to be WAY out classed by the notcturnals, but at the same time it felt like he was getting a bit too beat up.
3. This is going to sound odd coming from a junkie, but maybe tone the language down just a bit. I think you were going for that "gangster movie" kind of vibe with it, but to me it just came out over the top.
One thing to me though that shouldnt be changed is the scene where pierre kills Zou's husband. Its brilliant. I honestly expected Rex to tell him to let the guy go after Zou agreed. Just a threat at that point. But going through with it anyway just seemed truely evil.
I got the impression that the Kings were supose to have additional powers/abilities (more than what the normal Nocturals had), but was kind of confused because I don't remember Scott specifying what made them unique. Why would a huge wrecking machine (like Sly, for example) want to follow a weakling kid. In a dog-eat-dog world they live in, it didn't make sense to me.
I might have missed something along the way.
I was was wondering about those points too. But I really wanted to know what the Jawas were all about! The Aggie stuff could be trimmed down a bit also.
I suggested that if L. RonHubbard can write 1050 pages about giant space aliens attacking earth, Scott should be able to publish Nocturnal. It's way more original in my opinion. Our FDO should hook up with the Scientology publisher to get this baby published! ^_^
Anywho…Scott, if you are looking for stuff to trim out, I would cut the part where they kill the old geneticist guy (can't remember his name). I don't think it added much to the story, just seemed like an attempt to rack up body counts. Which is good, but not crutial to the plot.
Just my thoughts. Love your work!
Could the shot be powder coated?
Scott I'm a new Junkie and I just finished episode 39. Loved the book. No suggestions on how to shorten it at this time. I do have a question though. I'm an artist and I want to draw one of the Nocturnals. Who would you like to seen drawn?
If you packed buckshot with silver dust, would it coat the pellets, could someone breathe in the dust? Let's get to the range people!
Secretary General, Evil League of Evil
Hillary has been smuggling out babies for years. Bryan is one of them.
I think the being a Nocturnal and being a King is a matter of choice. Nurture over Nature.
Bryan was raised in a loving family and he grew up to be a cop. Bryan was horrified and fascinated by the dreams. More horrified and ergo, not evil.
Rex was raised by a woman who resented his existance and showed him nothing but dislike. Rex CHOSE to be a creep. He wanted to be evil. We are what we make ourselves. Rex didn't have to go the path he chose but he chose it.
Rex wanted to be a gangster.
Bryan fought gangsters.
The choices made due to who each was raised to be.
Secretary General, Evil League of Evil
Although Stone Mason is a great name, you don't need him. You can trim lots of stuff (althought he has some kick ass funny lines) by having Robin do her own mental heavy lifting. He's just there to guide her to the answers she won't accept anyway.
I knew that Sly was playing everyone and that he was only interested in becoming the leader. I didn't expect he'd backstab Rex – but then Sly didn't expect that First Born would be loyal and succeed. Since Sly's whole deal is power, it makes sense. You might have to add a scene wherein he thinks about how sweet life is going to be once he's the power behind the throne.
Obviously Aggie and the baby in the blanket are 2nd book material. that was obvious as soon as we went to the O'Brien instead of the tunnels. Never enough pages eh?
I think Amy Zou tossing the severed head MORE than makes up for some dead Robin Hudson action. Again I think you write wonderful female characters. Joss Whedon would be proud of you. (That's a high compliment btw as I'm a member of the Church of Whedon.)
Secretary General, Evil League of Evil
I said a portion of the chromosome was missing. One small segment of it but the rest of the Zed was there. It is hard to "see" damaged DNA but you can see that a portion of the chromosome is missing or broken off.
"Well. I'll tell you what. You gonna kick it with me. Or I'm gonna kick you out. What you think of that?" Sister Mary Clarence
The Irishman from Ohio
The Irishman from Ohio
The ending made sense once you recall just how Sly worked Rex to becoming his second ahead of FirstBorn. Delusions of grandeur, indeed. Now he thinks he's Top Dog.
..No Bounce..
…No Play…Anonymous December 19, 2008 at 7:36 pm
It was his idea to have Rex make him second-in-command. Sly cultivated Rex, helped make the other Nocturnals believe in Rex and stand up against Firstborn. There's a fine line between showing you my hand and giving you the surprise ending. The goal is that you look back at the story after you finish, and you see Sly's manipulations. If I do it correctly, you don't see it coming, then at the end of the book, you say "damn, I should have seen that coming."
Hollow point bullets filled with silverdust and capped with alox. Upon entry, the round would 'mushroom', dispersing the silverdust and reducing the chance of a through and through. I think a simular concept was used in "Underworld", but they went with a more complcated delivery method. Hollow points are simple, easy to work with and right up Jessups alley.
..No Bounce..
…No Play…
The unexpected ending definitely lends itself to a sequel and as you mentioned, there are several plots left unresolved. I sent you my comments previously about the mitochondrial/sperm DNA, etc. And lets not forget where Marie came from. Remember Pookie trying to find her on google – but I'm sure that's part of the sequel.
So what can you leave out????? I'm going to think about that some!
"Well. I'll tell you what. You gonna kick it with me. Or I'm gonna kick you out. What you think of that?" Sister Mary Clarence
Absolutely fantastic book Scott — One thing that struck me as odd in episode 40 was when Sly killed the king only to frame first born (who is one helluva compelling character imo), it didn't entirely make sense (yea, yea power grab, got that).
Up until that point, it appeared that Sly was a true beliver in the prophecy of a King coming to deliver Marie's Children out of underground and was it not Sly and crew that initially found Rex and brought him to lead the family?
It just seems out of sorts to get the entire Nocturnal family enthralled (and believing in) that their king has FINALLY come and their time of living underground was soon to end only to have the king die so Sly could step into that role. What can Sly possibly offer the family as their leader to fulfill the prophecy? Just saying, he's no king and has limited leadership experience so it seems like a big step back and not likely to go well for Sly in that new role.
twitter: jeffpowellAnonymous December 19, 2008 at 5:52 pm
If you're getting a Savior tat, or any of the symbols, I want to see it!Anonymous December 19, 2008 at 5:47 pm
Let's consider the surface area of a broadhead arrowhead against a bullet (I'll get to the shotgun shells in a second). Not going to calculate the area here, but the eight planes of a broadhead would provide a massive increase in surface area, delivering a larger amount of silver dust into the system (and it's an alloy, which I will get into with the sequel). The knife would have even more. And that's if I use just surface material, these could be some kind of porus metal with areas to contain pockets of material. Following that logic, the arrowhead becomes far deadlier.
Also, the arrowhead is custom, designed to stick in the wound. This lodging keeps the silver alloy right on the wound, further negating the rapid healing ability. By the same token, a bullet could also lodge, and serve a similar purpose but with a smaller area of effect.
I like the sound of the flechette!
I'll have to give this some thought to see how to make the story logical. However, I'm still thinking that the broadhead serves as the best ranged delivery vehicle, considering it's distance, accuracy, and surface area.
At one point when brians DNA was tested, there was a portion of the Zed chromosome that was missing. Of course that occured several months ago and it's hard to remember everything but my guess is that's why he senses the nocturnals but may be a little different from the majority of the nocturnals.
"Well. I'll tell you what. You gonna kick it with me. Or I'm gonna kick you out. What you think of that?" Sister Mary Clarence
As I understood Firstborn tried to get rid of children who had the _potential_ to become a King. Their smell was different but there was no guarantee they would be Kings when they reached certain age.
Unfortunately I don't have any suggestions on how to shorten the story. All of it sounds good to me.
Some additions would help it like it was with 'Infected'. Go a bit deeper, add some details.
So I recon splitting the book in two would be the way to go here, though it might be a little harder to sell two books instead of one.
Good job.
Scott, this rocked, but I have to agree with Paladine said about the Groom's Walk and all the stuff with Aggie. It's great stuff, and provides a lot… but it gets lost by the end.
Now, one thing I wonder… if First Born was killing potential kings but some got smuggled out…
Isn't Brian actually a king? If so, why doesn't he have the leading ability that Rex does? He should give off the scent/feeling that Rex does and perhaps cause some confusion or hesitation on the Nocturnals part (I'm thinking kind of like the Voice in Frank Herbert's Dune).
If he's not a king, why did First Born try to kill him and sparking the smuggling/adoption thing to happen years ago?
Good call about moving the underground stuff to the sequel. Would add a ton of mystery into how they came to be in the first place. Could still have Robin/her apprentice learning about their DNA and stuff, but not actually find out what the source is until later, then really delve into that in the next book.Anonymous December 19, 2008 at 3:33 pm
Truth be told, I was planning on bringing Aggie and the kid back for a third book (which, if I split the first book in two, would be a fourth book). Give the kid a little time to grow up and become a factor in the plot.
I'm not worried about feminists. I still get emails about my "poor treatment of fat women." When I email them back to ask why they hate skinny men (six of them butchered to two fat ladies), I don't get any more emails. Once you point out to people that they don't care about the treatment of all people, just their people, they tend to shut the fuck up. Have a special intrest? Than put it away and enjoy yourself, or don't pick up the book.
The ending needs tightening, but there's a lot of plot threads and characters to deal with. It's going to be a lot of pages, but I will do a better job of conveying it's not a lot of time.
Moving the Mommy stuff to the sequel, not a bad idea. I wonder how much that would truncate?
We need more Mommy!Anonymous December 19, 2008 at 3:28 pm
Moose, wouldn't a coating on the outside of the bullet be affected by the bullet's flight?
First off, the idea of this novel if just fuckin awesome. Great way of showing the science behind how something like a Nocturnal could even come to be.
Thing is, I think you did a good job of trying to expalin the subculture of the Nocturnals, showing the Grooms Walk, showing Mommie, showing how the King (Rex and previous King's) were escaped due to the crazy old lady, and showing how that worked first with Bryan and how that will work in the future with the kid that Aggie James snuck out.
Only problem is it feels like all of that information was discussed 20 epsisodes again and was never really addressed again. In many of your stories, you continually go back and forth between the different plot threads to keep all these people together, ultimately culminating in a huge train wreck where all these threads meet.
I really wish you interspersed more about Mommy and the underground throughout the story. I have to say that Mommy and those mutant kids is way scarier than the grown up Nocturnals. I don't really have a good feel for who Marie is, how she really got there, what she's thinking (if she can think) and what her role is (anything more than a breeding ground).
Is the kid that Aggie helped escaped not to be continued in the story? Was that merely a way for Aggie to escape his self-torture and move on from a drug abusing bum to a decent person again?
Just seems like all those side stories should be more interspersed. I hear what you're saying about having to take out a bunch of words to get this to press. I'd say you should even think about stopping somewhere around Robin's death and just go into more detail about Aggie, Marie and those plots.
Start the 2nd book right after the death of Robin, and the 2nd book could probably even go a little bit passed the battle on the ship.
Just some ideas, would be cool to hear what you think of them.
I really enjoyed Nocturnal, as well, and I must admit that the coda of the book helped, but I *do* have some complaints.
1) What happened to Aggie James? There was this whole subplot, and then nothing.
2) The end is too fucking long. The scene where Brian dons the coat/cloak before rescuing Saviorwas awesomely genius and had my blood pumping. Granted, then followed a long story hiatus, but also a drawn-out finale that would. not. stop.
3) "Mission Accomplished" seems like a great euphemism for the status quo at the end of the book. Brian didn't accomlish anything by himself, he just got beat up a whole lot.
4) I'm not saying it didn't work, but get ready for feminist critique if you kill the girl to spur the hero into action. I really liked, however, the notion that Jebedajah Erickson might have experienced the same thing and even denying him his revenge at the end.
5) All the stuff with "Mommy", the Groom's Walk, the Aggie James subplot – perhaps that might work better in the sequel? Keep the Nocturnals more monstrous here, and show their society in the second book? That could help trim a lot of words. Don't nix it – because the Groom's Walk was great – just postpone it.
one of my favorite stories ever *drives to tattoo shop to get saivor tat*
Chew the womb, seal the tomb, leave the dead behind
I cannot end without knowing the print version will have an illustrated break down of the 'Chang Bang' with appropriate safety guidelines.
Scott, this story fracking rocked and I can't think of a thing I'd change. 'cept maybe my undies after a couple of the scares you delivered.
Secretary General, Evil League of EvilAnonymous December 19, 2008 at 5:04 am
Here you go Junkies, let's get the conversation started on what you thought of the book, and if there are things you thought should have gone differently. I'm posting this in Forums because your opinion may not be shared by other Junkies, which makes this a better place to discuss it than an email sent straight to me.
You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

subset: commoncrawl


text:
A take-it-or-leave-it deal from the White House on free trade agreements could spell trouble for the FTAs that are now reaching a critical juncture in their long history.
It's down to decision time for the Colombia, Panama and South Korea free trade deals, which are worth billions for U.S. agriculture. Yet former USDA Trade Adviser Paul Drazek says there's no White House-Hill GOP deal on attaching Trade Adjustment Assistance for trade-displaced workers to the Korea FTA.
"It sounds to me like the Administration is getting ready to go ahead and send the three free trade agreement implementing bills forward with TAA attached to the Korea one," Drazek said.
But Drazek says the take-it-or-leave-it approach on FTAs with Trade Adjustment Assistance opposed by Republicans in the Korea bill could backfire, with House Republicans ditching Korea and sending the Senate just Panama and Colombia.
"But the Democrats in the Senate have control and they aren't going to want to vote on two of the agreements without knowing that the TAA is going to be included at some point," Drazek said. "So my guess is that they would all vote against the other two and we wouldn't get any of the three agreements get through."
Drazek says without TAA the President and Senate Democrats would have no political cover with their union allies. He says bottom, no fig leaf, no deal, even as the clock ticks down to the August recess. A crowded fall calendar clouds FTA prospects even further.
National Cattlemen's Beef Association Manager of Legislative Affairs Kent Bacus says the time left until the early or mid-August recess is very short when considering the need to deal with the debt crisis.
"We're looking at a couple of weeks at the most, which is a very, very small window when you're talking about moving stuff on Capitol Hill," Bacus said. "If they fail to get anything done before they leave for the August recess they could put the fate of the FTAs in severe jeopardy because when you get into the fall they still have all the spending bills to take care of and you're getting into the election seasons."
Bacus says the situation's very concerning to NCBA. Once the beef industry loses market share in a place like Korea, he argues that it's gone and very hard to get back.


text:
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Click on the logo above to listen to today's episode of StarDate on Claycord.com.
StarDate is a daily two-minute audio program about astronomy. It is created by the University of Texas at Austin McDonald Observatory and brought to you by Claycord.com.
Claycord.com is the only website in the World that broadcasts StarDate.
StarDate will be posted every day at 7pm on Claycord.com.


text:
Tim Chen needed a new logo design and created a contest on 99designs.
A winner was selected from 37 designs submitted by 19 freelance designers.
Logo, for website.
Nerd Wallet will dumb down complicated financial decisions by asking a few relevant questions, then giving out easy to understand suggestions. Categories will include choosing a student loan, home mortgage, or credit card.
Nerd Wallet
Want logo for website, am considering starting a personal finance management website.
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text:
Vinnie Barbone and his family thought a nearby gas well had exploded shortly after midnight on Saturday. But as they looked outdoors, they discovered what was left of a Pontiac Grand Am laying in their back yard at 9061 Warren-Salem Road.
They also found two men, 21-year-old Canfield residents Andrew Franklin and Michael McDonald, who had been ejected from the car. Amazingly, both men were conscious and transported by Damascus Fire/EMS to St. Elizabeth Medical Center in Youngstown. After sideswiping a tree and rolling numerous times, the car came to rest over 1,000 feet from the roadway with the engine, shown left, stopping in the neighbor's backyard another 100-feet beyond the car. Highway Patrol Trooper Timothy Dobbins, of the Canfield post, is investigating the crash. Citations are pending against the driver, Franklin. Morning Journal/Patti Schaeffer


text:
It's Sew Easy, the new television program to be broadcast nationally (in the United States) on Public Television, is looking for a BurdaStyle member to star in a 10 minute television spot instructing a national audience on a BurdaStyle sewing project!
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