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Dog park controversy: Residents urge Ann Arbor officials to reconsider canceled plan for West Park
One of the hottest issues at Tuesday night's Ann Arbor City Council meeting was an item not even on the agenda: A proposal for a near-downtown dog park.
Council members heard an outpouring of support for a new off-leash playground for pooches at West Park from a handful of residents who lined up to speak at the start of the meeting.
Residents expressed dismay that city officials had pulled the proposal from the council's agenda after concerns raised by New Hope Baptist Church. The church sits directly across from the Chapin Street entrance to West Park where a dog park was being considered until last week.
Ryan J. Stanton | AnnArbor.com
"If some congregation members are afraid of dogs, and I truly believe they are sincere in that fear, then I say to the members of the New Hope Baptist Church, please be open to change," said John Lawter, a former parks commissioner who has led the effort for more dog parks in Ann Arbor.
"Let's break this culture of fear," Lawter added, calling fear "an ugly thing" that should be put down whenever possible.
Ann Arbor officials pulled the plug on the proposal after church leaders raised concerns not only about noise and safety, but also about what they considered deeply rooted cultural differences.
Leaders of the historically black congregation communicated to city officials that a number of the church's members were born in the South and have different attitudes about dogs, and they simply see a dog park as incompatible with their ability to worship freely.
"There's no reason why it has to be placed in an area that's going to be offensive to us as a people and as a church, and right now it's offensive," The Rev. Rodrick Green said earlier this month.
City Council Member Christopher Taylor, who serves as a council representative on the Park Advisory Commission, said the dog park issue a tricky one.
Ryan J. Stanton | AnnArbor.com
Taylor, who previously defended PAC's recommendation to put a dog park across from the church on a one-year trial basis, said he now supports the decision by the city's administration to reassess.
"This was a close case," he said. "Obviously there are many benefits to having a dog park in this location and many people who want it."
City Administrator Steve Powers said he sees it as a case where there's simply some additional time needed for further review. City officials say a near-downtown dog park remains a priority.
Ann Arbor has two-off leash dog parks: one at Swift Run in the southeast part of the city and one at Olson Park in the northeast part of the city. Residents who spoke at Tuesday's meeting said they'd prefer a neighborhood dog park they can walk to from their homes.
"I'm strongly committed to reducing my carbon footprint as much as possible and therefore I would never drive to a dog park," said Aina Bernier, lobbying for a dog park at West Park.
Multiple residents noted the Arise Church, a United Methodist congregation in Pinckney, established a two-acre dog park on its property and credits it with increasing church membership.
"We believe that God created people to be in community, and that we are at our best when we're in relationship to one another," the church's website reads. "Therefore, we provide this dog park not only as a fun safe place where dogs can get good exercise, but our greatest hope is that dog owners will make friends here and enjoy great conversations together."
Ann Arbor resident Harold Kirchen read that statement from the church's website at Tuesday's meeting and said that's been his personal experience at dog parks.
"I know the New Hope Baptist Church is saying the idea of a dog park and a church is completely incompatible," he said. "But these folks in Pinckney have grown their congregation by having people first come visit the dog park and then decide, 'Geez, these are good Christian values of inclusion, tolerance, charity and love,' and then they join the congregation."
Lawter said he believes members of New Hope Baptist Church are sincere in their concerns, but he still feels they are founded in a "gross misunderstanding of canine behavior." He said he's not comforted by the fact that city officials have vowed to look for an alternative site.
"As a former parks commissioner who has been working on this for years — and it has taken years — to get a central city site identified, I'm skeptical that an alternative will be found," he said.
Residents told council members having a dog park at West Park would be a great way to activate the space and build a stronger sense of community.
"We're the people who use parks," Kirchen said. "You get a critical mass of people out there and suddenly parks become safe. Suddenly you see mothers with baby strollers. You see women jogging where they wouldn't jog if it was a deserted park."
Missy Stults, who described herself as a relatively new resident of Ann Arbor and a new member of PAC, urged council members to think creatively about having more dog parks, as well as changing city ordinance to allow off-leash dog hours.
Ryan J. Stanton | AnnArbor.com
The presence of well-planned dog parks and off-leash hours, she said, would send a clear message that the city welcomes dog owners.
Gordon said many other cities that are larger and more complex than Ann Arbor have dog parks scattered throughout their neighborhoods, as well as off-leash hours in their major parks. She questioned how the city can have so many parks and only two dog parks on the outskirts of town.
Lawter said he thinks the proposal to construct a dog park at West Park as a temporary facility that can be removed after a year if it's a problem is a fair compromise.
"Let it go in," he said. "Take it out if it becomes a nuisance."
If anyone is concerned the dogs will be smelly, dangerous or bark incessantly, Lawter said he encourages them to visit either of the city's two existing dog parks.
"The people who will take the time to go to a dog park are not the people who own dangerous, dirty, obnoxious dogs," he said, adding the people who use dog parks self-police.
"Ann Arbor is a culturally diverse city," he concluded. "Our dog owners are a culturally diverse group, and our parks should be open to all cultures, including the four-legged variety."
PAC Chairwoman Julie Grand said she's still hopeful a near-downtown dog park could open this year. She said there's talk of using another part of West Park farther away from the church.
Green reiterated his congregation's concerns on Wednesday, and once again clarified the church wouldn't be opposed to a dog park at another location.
"We have no objection to a dog park in central Ann Arbor at all, even in West Park, but we definitely would not appreciate it in front of the church at the location they had proposed," he said. "We're not anti-dog and we're not anti-dog park. We're just anti-dog park for the location that was proposed."
Green said West Park is a big park so there are other options for the city to consider. As for the church in Pinckney that's making a dog park work on its own property, Green remarked: "If that works for them, God bless them. I don't think that would work for us, though."
Ryan J. Stanton covers government and politics for AnnArbor.com. Reach him at firstname.lastname@example.com or 734-623-2529. You also can follow him on Twitter or subscribe to AnnArbor.com's email newsletters.
Sat, Jan 26, 2013 : 12:14 a.m.
Hmm... As a dog owner, and one who has lived in other cities without dog parks, I will unequivically say that having accessible dog parks is a wonderful thing and indeed, beneficial thing, not simply for dog owners, but for the community at large. Not only does it give dogs a chance for people to excercise their dogs, but to also socialize and train them, something difficult to do in an apartment or condo and which makes them far less likely to bark, bite, and to act as a nusiciance to the public. It also allows individuals (and hopefully those in the church as well) to socialize and build friendships with other dog owners, building relationships that reach into other civic and business activities. While I believe our city council is truly showing how much they care about the entirity of the community, and should be commended by both advocates and opponents, I ultimently feel that unwarrented fear and unsubstantiated beliefs should bear less weight then the actual facts and benefits which concern dog parks. Ultimetly a city, while being sensitive to others beliefs, must act on what actually exsists s and what would most benefit the local community, both which support the creation of a dog park at that location.
Woman in Ypsilanti
Thu, Jan 24, 2013 : 3:21 p.m.
I love going to parks where dogs are running free. I had never heard that was a thing at Bird Hills but now that I know I might start going there. I don't have a dog who can be off leash myself but I always enjoy watching other dogs having a good time. It really maximizes my enjoyment of our parks. I still sometimes like to go to the Arb to watch the dogs playing.
Nicole Streeter
Tue, Jan 29, 2013 : 9:01 p.m.
I no longer live in Ypsi, but I have to agree with "Woman in Ypsi". I am an Eastern alum, and lived with in walking distance of my apartment. I frequently took my labrador to Frog Island park to play and swim in the river.. During the day, there were some "questionable" people there, but even in my late night bar walks home from depot town, I stayed away from Frog Island park at night. I think its great that people are once again able to go to the park at night. I have also lived in NYC and I do agree with leash laws, but again believe that the dog owners are the ones who need to be held accountable for their dogs behavior. If you have an aggressive dog, or your dog shows signs of aggressiveness, then you should not be in a public park!
Fri, Jan 25, 2013 : 9:23 p.m.
Women in Ypsi Give me a break! You are saying that a "minor snap" isn't serious enough to pay attention to! I will tell you what the next minor snap my wife or grandchild get the owner and or dog willpay more than attention!
Woman in Ypsilanti
Fri, Jan 25, 2013 : 8:10 p.m.
A2Citizen, yes there are an *estimated* 4.5 million dog bites but that number includes minor snaps that I don't consider serious enough to pay attention to and certainly not something I would compare to the violent crime that makes it into your statistic. Looking at deaths, a very measurable metric, in 2011 31 people were killed by dogs in the USA. In that same year 14,612 people were murdered by other people. It is clear to me where the greater threat lies.
Woman in Ypsilanti
Fri, Jan 25, 2013 : 8:04 p.m.
I am still way more afraid of people than I am afraid of dogs. One thing I noticed in Ypsilanti, fwiw, is that the dog people make the park safe after dark. Dog people go to the park in all kinds of weather and often into the late evening when it is dark. I can remember before the dog people started going to the park in Ypsilanti. It was pretty normal for really scary dudes to hang out there drinking and doing crack. The dog people started calling the cops for such things and the park got a lot safer which in turn encouraged others to use the park again. Dogs in the park really improved the safety there although the effect isn't obvious to those who didn't see how things had been before. I know that Ann Arbor doesn't have the same sort of "people problems" in their parks but they aren't totally immune either, especially at West Park. If the city were to designate late evening hours (say 8pm -5am) as off leash hours, it might have the effect of discouraging even worse illegal uses of the park.
Fri, Jan 25, 2013 : 7:21 p.m.
Should have read our property.
Fri, Jan 25, 2013 : 7:20 p.m.
Women Well my wife has been bitten on out property by a dog on a long lease.My grandson was attacked at Bird Hills Park. So we assume any dog is capable of biting!
Fri, Jan 25, 2013 : 5:35 p.m.
There are an estimated 4.5 million dog bites per year, with 800k requiring medical care. There were 1.2 million violent crimes in the 2011. I'll let you decide whether, statistically, you are more likely to be harmed by people. I have been bitten by a dog and attacked several other times by canines. I have been shot at (not by a dog). I've never been attacked in a crowded park by another person. All things considered I don't trust dogs or people that are off leashes. http://www.americanhumane.org/animals/stop-animal-abuse/fact-sheets/dog-bites.html http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm
Woman in Ypsilanti
Fri, Jan 25, 2013 : 4:09 p.m.
I've also never had a dog mug me nor shoot me with a gun. Both things which people have done to me so forgive me when I find people's whining about dogs to be a little bit trivial.
Woman in Ypsilanti
Fri, Jan 25, 2013 : 4:08 p.m.
@JCJ I deal with strange dogs the same way that I deal with strange people although since statistically, I am much more likely to be harmed by people, I do admit that I am more inclined to assume a strange dog is friendly than a strange person. Basically, I don't entirely let down my guard but I also assume good intentions. I've had some ill behaved dogs jump up on me in the park but those dogs were perfectly friendly, maybe *too* friendly. I've only been bitten by dogs a few times but I have had thousands of interactions with dogs.
Thu, Jan 24, 2013 : 9:26 p.m.
Women When do you decide if a dog is friendly AFTER or Before it bites someone?
Woman in Ypsilanti
Thu, Jan 24, 2013 : 6:25 p.m.
I know it isn't legal. Since I wont be allowing my dog to run off leash, I can enjoy watching others do so with no risk. Not that there is much of one anyways. That is how it should be, IMHO. I am ok with leash laws so that the police have a tool to deal with very obnoxious and/or dangerous dogs but generally I don't think it is an appropriate use of police resources to crack down on friendly dogs in public parks even if they are off leash.
Thu, Jan 24, 2013 : 3:45 p.m.
It's not legal for dogs to be off leash in Bird Hills or the Arb.
Thu, Jan 24, 2013 : 3:18 p.m.
Even though I am a devoted dog person and dog advocate, I worry about this proposal. In other communities where I have lived, these small, fenced, in-town dog parks have tended to become a problem in the community and have fueled the anti-dog lobby. In addition, they are not really very healthy play environments for most dogs. We need large parks with trails and play spaces that can meet the needs of more community members. Two acres is not sufficient. I would not bring my dog to this park.
Thu, Jan 24, 2013 : 3:36 p.m.
I think this is a very different community with different expectations that NYC. I have lived in several big cities, and each has a different culture around dogs. Ann Arbor just doesn't strike me as a place that will do well with this kind of park.
Woman in Ypsilanti
Thu, Jan 24, 2013 : 3:22 p.m.
NYC has a lot of really small dog parks. Some are around 1/2 an acre. The ground has to be gravel as grass would get worn out but even at that size, large dogs can get a good run in.
Thu, Jan 24, 2013 : 2:02 p.m.
Please, inexperienced dog park people, here's a good description of what to expect: http://www.doggoes.com/articles/tips-having-fun-dog-park
Thu, Jan 24, 2013 : 2:54 p.m.
That's a great article! I've bookmarked it. Should be handed out to everyone as they sign up for dog parks.
Nicholas Urfe
Thu, Jan 24, 2013 : 1:45 p.m.
Some people act like their dogs aren't already allowed in the parks. And then there are the dog owners who let their often wet dogs jump on people as they pass on the sidewalk.
sun runner
Thu, Jan 24, 2013 : 1:31 p.m.
Everything about this kerfuffle makes me glad I just have cats.
Frustrated in A2
Thu, Jan 24, 2013 : 4:27 a.m.
Can a fence be put up in another part of the park and put the dog park there. Moving it to western edge of the park seems like a win-win situation.
Nicole Streeter
Thu, Jan 24, 2013 : 3:07 a.m.
Does the church own the property? NO! Then why do they have the right to dictate what goes there? it would be pretty easy to negotiate.. How about the dog park won't be open til after service is over? The city's quashing the idea for a dog park based on church goers whining about their fear of dogs, when they go to church , what once or twice a week? The dog park is ENCLOSED and gated! what part of that don't you get? You think the dogs are going to have a party while you're trying to worship? They're going to do the freakin Limbo or Cha-Cha? The only way any dog should be any issue is if it's owner doesn't have control of it, and again, if you have an aggressive dog, you shouldn't be going to a public dog park. Ridiculous!
Thu, Jan 24, 2013 : 9:24 p.m.
Nicole People in this town are ALWAYS trying to dictate what others can do with their property.And most of it is from the liberal city council!
buvda fray
Thu, Jan 24, 2013 : 12:05 p.m.
Dog is God spelled backwards. Just imagine if it was a mad dog.
Thu, Jan 24, 2013 : 2:53 a.m.
I'm startled at the passion ignited by this issue. Much of it ignores the likelihood that the Park Advisory Commission and the church and other actually interested parties will work out a reasonable compromise. See this from the Jan. 16 article: "The decision to take a step back is merely a "hiccup in the process" and not the end of the idea for a more centrally located dog park in Ann Arbor, said PAC Chairwoman Julie Grand. She said there's already talk about using another triangular piece on the west side of West Park, between the two entrance paths off Seventh Street — further away from the church. "PAC and city staff will continue to work with the public to identify a suitable centrally located dog park as there is certainly an identified need," said Colin Smith, the city's parks manager. . . . the church['s] . . . leaders have said they wouldn't be opposed to another location in West Park." A little quiet, and fewer brickbats, while the parties reach a compromise might be in order.
Woman in Ypsilanti
Thu, Jan 24, 2013 : 6:28 p.m.
It would have been better if an alternate site were selected *before* the brakes were put on the first proposed site. However, knowing what I know of Ann Arbor, you are likely to get NIMBY responses no matter what site is picked so there is a good argument for just going forward with the first one too.
Thu, Jan 24, 2013 : 2:25 a.m.
"Let's break this culture of fear," Lawter added, calling fear "an ugly thing" that should be put down whenever possible. Have you ever been BITTEN by a dog Mr Lawter? It is not so easy to dismiss that fear. How do you feel about spiders, bees, guns? All things that might instil fear. Maybe we need to put down those ugly fears!
Thu, Jan 24, 2013 : 2:08 a.m.
@ pbehjatnia, re: "Next I tried playing fetch with my ball obsessed pointer. There was a particularly nutso dog there who would not give me the chance to throw our brand new ball for my dog to fetch." Yep. I've seen this all too often. Multiple dogs trained to be "ball obsessed" by multiple "ball obsessed" owners. Throw a ball for our dog over, and over, and over again, without engaging in other activities, and yes, you will end up with a "ball obsessed" dog. That is guaranteed. I understand the urge, after a long day of work, to wear your dog out with a minimum of personal exertion. Wanting to end up with a completely tired-out, happy dog is admirable. My dog likes lots of different games, but we don't do only one thing, and if he seems to be focused too much on any given activity, we stop playing that game for a while. Simple. No problem. And yet, I have been to dog parks where "One-Trick-Pony" owners refuse to adapt when faced with the problem of other dogs, that other owners have taught to be as obsessive as they have taught their own dogs to be, fighting over that one, lone ball. Our job, in those situations, and in our private sessions with our dogs, is to be observant, and to be amateur "Dog Psychologists." They are simpler, more honest beings than we are, so it's not as hard as it might sound. On one occasion, I actually had to temporarily confiscate a ball after a half-dozen dogfights, because the clueless owner kept throwing it in the presence of several other similarly-trained dogs. The ball-throwing guy pocketed his ball in a huff, but the fights stopped, and the dog-socialization resumed. Problem solved. And it was NOT a dog problem.
Thu, Jan 24, 2013 : 1:29 a.m.
@ Nicholas Urfe, re: "It took them [skateboarders] many years of hard work... Why do some dog owners think they should get what appears to be preferential treatment?" The local dog owners have put in many, many more years –– decades, actually –– towards the goal of adequate dog parks than the skateboarders had to, and they have always paid their own way with their dog parks. And the City's NIMBY response, two parks as far out to the outskirts of town as they could possibly be placed, was a joke.
Thu, Jan 24, 2013 : 1:19 p.m.
Paying a dog park fee isn't the same as "paying their way". I doubt that's actually the case.
Thu, Jan 24, 2013 : 1:26 a.m.
@ ccsummer, re: "I simply don't understand Lawter's statement that he's skeptical of an alternative spot being found." That is because you haven't ever sat down with John Lawter to listen to the years and years of resistance that he has faced, and the years and years that it took him to get just this one, measly lot temporarily "approved," only to have it yanked off the table, COMPLETELY AGAINST ALL PROCEDURAL RULES FOR THE PAC, by a couple of people who suddenly got NIMBY cold feet.
Thu, Jan 24, 2013 : 1:25 a.m.
I applaud the City Council for pulling the dog park proposal from the agenda. If it were my church where they wanted to put a dog park across the street, I would object also. I think people were being insensitive in the first place to choose that spot when, according to previous comments, there is a better spot within the West Park area. Not all dog owners are sensitive to others and they do not train and maintain control of their dogs.
Thu, Jan 24, 2013 : 1:21 a.m.
@ Heimer Boodle, re: "I'd be interested in an explanation from the City as to why the location across from the church (and abutting the sidewalk) is the only place..." Good question, indeed. When Mr. Lawter first joined the PAC, and pointed out the need for dog parks, he was told, "Sorry, the Master Plan for West Park is in place, and is cast in stone!" So, when the City acquired the lot in question, he said, "You can't tell me you already have a cast-in-stone plan for THIS parcel, because we just got it!" The main problem here is a combination of bureaucratic inflexibility, and too much willingness to NIMBY-out, to avoid controversy. Mr. Lawter has been doing a tireless job of fighting both of these problems for years.
Thu, Jan 24, 2013 : 1:18 a.m.
@ Peter Eckstein, re: "...there has apparently been little negotiation with the church over the possibility of keeping the park locked around the time of Sunday services..." Dead wrong there, Peter. The proposal included many suggestions along the line of following the Arise Church's model of closing the park on Sunday mornings, for instance. Anyway, who would think of even turning onto Chapin on a Sunday morning if they weren't going to New Hope? The West Park lot, clearly-labeled PARK USE ONLY, is always packed with church cars on Sundays, as it also was on a recent Tuesday, when I tried to park there, but found that something was going on at the church. Few of us in the community begrudge this trespass –– we simply say, "Oh, well," and then we find another park, as I did on that Tuesday. All we ask of New Hope is for them to display a similarly tolerant, inclusive attitude, which they have not done to date.
P. J. Murphy
Thu, Jan 24, 2013 : 2:59 p.m.
Weekends are the peak times for both churches and dog parks. Were I a member of this church I'd be rightfully skeptical of such an accommodation as being simply a "foot in the door" tactic. Meanwhile this city has a long history of relaxing parking regulations on Sundays, as the members of churches (and motorists) on North Division and Washtenaw well know.
Thu, Jan 24, 2013 : 1:15 a.m.
@ Brian Kuehn, re: "If someone adjacent to or near a proposed dog park has an objection, then the City should find another spot." That's called NIMBY, and that is exactly what the City's policy has been to date: Two dog parks that were placed as far out as the City could possibly place them –– climb over the fence at either one and you have just officially left town! Completely unworkable, but NIMBY does seem to be the last resort of the spineless.
Brian Kuehn
Thu, Jan 24, 2013 : 3:29 a.m.
You toss around the "NIMBY" phrase rather easily. Just because someone has a legitimate concern about a significant change in one's neighborhood doesn't mean they are against all change or development. It is easy to try to dismiss someone's concerns with the pejorative label "NIMBY" but that ultimately won't get you your dog park. Why not consider proposing a more acceptable location within West Park. The area is rather large and it seems like one could find a spot set further from homes and other buildings.
Thu, Jan 24, 2013 : 1:13 a.m.
@ Unusual Suspect, re: "Before we do anything more for the dog-owner community (of which I am one) I would first like to see some more responsibility exhibited by them... write some stiff tickets." Hmm. First pretend that there is no need for more dog parks, aggressively suppress those people who find some way to give their dogs the exercise they need, and then, and only then, deal with reality? No. First, provide for the needs of the community, and then, and only then, get aggressive about enforcement.
Thu, Jan 24, 2013 : 1:12 a.m.
@ NoPC, re: "I love the comment to (sic) one lady (I think it was a lady) about how she wants to reduce her 'carbon footprint'!" I happen to know that she "walks" her talk every day –– to work, and then back home. And re: Only in Ann Arbor... Rare, yes. But definitely not "Only in Ann Arbor..."
Thu, Jan 24, 2013 : 1:04 a.m.
Then again, many cultures embrace dogs: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_meat
Thu, Jan 24, 2013 : 12:56 a.m.
Some churches don't like Halloween. Should we cancel trick or treat?
Thu, Jan 24, 2013 : 12:13 a.m.
I own three dogs. I recently decided to try out a dog park in Ann Arbor. I don't want to fork over $180 without first having tried at least one. I lasted 20 minutes. It was on Dhu Varren. I was jumped on mercilessly by a completely untrained ca. 110 lb adult black lab whose owner lamely stood by and recited how 'sweet' he really was. Really? When I have 110lbs of aggression on me and in my face sweet just doesn't come to mind. Next I tried playing fetch with my ball obsessed pointer. There was a particularly nutso dog there who would not give me the chance to throw our brand new ball for my dog to fetch. After 15 minutes of that he actually took the ball from my hand making contact to my skin with his teeth (yes, another sweetheart I suppose?) When I said to his owners that I would like my ball now so that we can leave I was told that it wasn't so easy and they couldn't just take it from their dog. Yes. I said I want my ball NOW, they said NO. In other words, they stole my property. I was either going to have to go after a very aggressive dog (who was worse? dog or owners? I cannot tell.) or leave without my $7 ball. I left without my ball. I wouldn't recommend any more dog parks until the city finds a way to control who is using them. If the dogs (and owners) are safe. Is the owner in control of their dog(s)? My dogs are obedience trained. If anyone decides they're not with the program, they go back to the car. I am in control and aware. I won't support this park (in my neighborhood) or any other city dog park until owners are required to first pass a test of obedience (because it's all about the human). I think the parks are dangerous and I don't at all blame church members for fearing this.
Mon, Feb 4, 2013 : 11:47 p.m.
You would like the (privately owned) dog park out at the corner of Territorial and Zeeb. The member dogs are screened by the owners, and the owners are often hanging around and are willing to talk to problem dog owners.
Thu, Jan 24, 2013 : 1:36 p.m.
@pbehjatnia, No, it wasn't me, my dogs don't chase balls, as I said. I would have retrieved your ball for you. But, consider this: would you take a plate of chocolates into a nursery school at play time and expect that only your toddler would eat them? That seems mean. At the dog park, and you admitted you were trying it out for the first time, the owners who socialize there regularly play with each other's dogs, toss balls, and break up dogs who get over-excited, and generally everyone gets along very well. It's play time for the dogs. I think you came in with certain expectations, private space for you and your dog?, rather than finding out how others have worked it out. There are several people who toss balls for their workaholic pointers, but they just use any of the 50 balls that are laying around.
Thu, Jan 24, 2013 : 1:35 a.m.
@BHarding: You sound just like the self-centered owners I encountered at the park. Was it you? If so, return my ball and get some obedience training for your dog and some basic civil manners for yourself. You need them badly. @Eye: Yes, I did get a double dose of AA 'tude. And it was more than enough. The people were horrible and their dogs were horrible. No need for further comment.
Thu, Jan 24, 2013 : 12:59 a.m.
You got hit with a double dose of Ann Arbor Attitude. Sounds like a bad day. No wonder you are PO'd.
Thu, Jan 24, 2013 : 12:47 a.m.
Buvda, agree 100 percent. Some dog owners seem to have a strong sense of entitlement. When it comes to another person's pets and balls dog owners should be required to train their dogs to lick...
Thu, Jan 24, 2013 : 12:46 a.m.
What? You throw balls at at a public dog park and expect that the other dogs won't run after it? It's all about the dogs having fun at the dog park, it's not a training session. I throw balls for other dogs all the time because my dogs don't chase balls. My dogs just want to run and chase and be chased by other dogs. It's about dogs socializing, not about you having a private session with your dog.
buvda fray
Thu, Jan 24, 2013 : 12:22 a.m.
Agree. None of us should have to witness untrained "pets" chomping on other people's balls and the owners of those pets refusing to make it right. Responsible dog owners train their dogs or bring their own set of balls to the park.
buvda fray
Thu, Jan 24, 2013 : 12:09 a.m.
Are we not in Ann Arbor? This is 2013, people. Are each and every one of you living in the dark past with no regard for any kind of civility and sensitivity? You know who you are, and you know what this is all about. I will say it once and for all: They are not dogs. They are canine Americans, for God's sake.
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 11:13 p.m.
If the proposed park had collection plates at the entrance, I bet Reverend Green would suddenly be for it.
Nicholas Urfe
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 11:12 p.m.
If there is so much demand and desire for convenient downtown dog parks, then maybe someone should open a private business. Surely all the users would be willing to cover the cost.
Thu, Jan 24, 2013 : 11:23 a.m.
You do know that even with the dog run, you have to pay the city for a yearly license to use it above and beyond the dog license...that is ALREADY existing...maybe you should read up on THAT...
Thu, Jan 24, 2013 : 2:08 a.m.
There are a number of private dog care facilities and private dog parks. One neighbor has a van come everyday to their house and pick the dog up. I belong to the very best private dog park ever...Paw Run, in Dexter. 18 acres, lined (huge) swimming hole, creek with a wooden waling bridge over it. Dog toys are available, benches to sit on, open areas for Frisbee and catch and shady trails to walk. Trails, a seasonal 'swamp', high grasses, wild raspberry bushes, a separately fenced agility course within the park, free parking, and loads of wonderful people to talk and walk with. That said...I do live in A2 and would like a park near downtown where I live.
Thu, Jan 24, 2013 : 12:36 a.m.
Here here! I wondered where all the free-market proponents were in this debate.
Nicholas Urfe
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 11:09 p.m.
I see many insulting comments, as quoted in the article and here, trying to distort and, I think malign the church members by describing them as "fearful" and "afraid". When people say chuch members are: "afraid of dogs" "sincere in that fear" "Let's break this culture of fear," "callling fear an ugly thing" That's just wrong and manipulative. I think that's like asking someone "have you stopped living in fear yet?"
Thu, Jan 24, 2013 : 12:16 a.m.
you have nothing to fear but fear itself. lol.
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 10:59 p.m.
The lack-of-understanding of what a dogrun is, and is not, is really quite astonishing here -- I lived in NYC for decades and there are dogruns in every single public park, and generally about every 10 blocks...they are usually 1/2 the size of the dogrun proposed for West Park...and they rarely, if ever, have a single complaint about them in the forty years they have been there -- and that's in a residentially packed area where hundreds of people live ten feet away from them, not commercial and church properties that are 50 feet away and on the other side of the street. - Dogruns are NOT DESIGNED for people to "get exercise walking to and from it". They are designed to have a fenced in area for dogs to run around and chase balls for a few minutes with other dogs. -Dogruns DO NOT cause barking and lots of noise. In fact, dogs that are usually in dogruns are there to play and why would they bark? Dogs bark when they are warning owners about perceived danger, or warning off other people or dogs. That doesn't happen in dog runs. Go to the existing dog runs and listen for barking....what, you say? You don't hear ANY barking?...no surprise there. -Dogruns DONT substitute for walking dogs. They are usually NOT filled with poop, nor do they smell. Dogs don't poop where they play, just like people do not. Smaller dogruns almost never have that problem. Larger ones (Swift run) DO because they are too big and dogs lose their sense of "territory" "Dogs are treated different in the south" -- Pure drivel -- you get arrested down south for neglecting or abusing your dogs, just like you do "up north" -- and there are dogruns in every single major metropolitan community "down south"....
Suzanne Taylor
Fri, Jan 25, 2013 : 3 a.m.
Amen. Thank you, Halter!
Thu, Jan 24, 2013 : 2:02 a.m.
Good response. thanx
Nicholas Urfe
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 10:19 p.m.
Skateboarding advocates had to raise the funds for their special interest park, and then make their case to the city for a location that would not disrupt the neighbors. It took them many years of hard work. Why do some dog owners think they should get what appears to be preferential treatment? Dogs are arguably louder than skateboarders, though maybe similar. Skateboard parks don't usually have the urine and dog dropping smells often noticed when passing by in-town dog parks. Give the neighbors some consideration and move on to a more viable location.
Thu, Jan 24, 2013 : 2:01 a.m.
I live across from a neighborhood park where, yes, there has often been an underground dog park with as many as 10 large dogs at a time running free (in past years, no longer) and many many dogs on-leash every day. It is cleaner than most parks and there is no urine smell. The garbage can with all the bagged poop only smells in high summer as you approach it and I noticed a neighbor put a couple of stick-on deodorizers on it. My front door and patio is upwind of the garbage can and believe me, it is FINE. If the city were to make our neighborhood park a dog park I would be thrilled!! Dog owners really do police their own very very well. Don't forget WE are also walking in that park and so are our children.
Nicholas Urfe
Thu, Jan 24, 2013 : 1:22 a.m.
GoNavy, it is the urine smell that is the biggest problem. You can't wipe that up. Dozens of dogs each day in a small area, all urinating multiple times, is in no way comparable to wild animals passing through a backyard.
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 11:54 p.m.
@Navy - not to mention what the fish do in the water.
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 11:39 p.m.
39% of American households own dogs. Hard for skateboarders to match that number, don't you think? As for dog urine and excrement, I have two responses: 1.)I clean up after my dog, hopefully setting an example. 2.)Every animal in nature does its business wherever, and whenever it wants. In the river, on your lawn, on your roof and on your porch. What do you propose we do about all of these animals doing their thing without respect to any of the laws we've passed?
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 9:48 p.m.
If Ann Arbor really wants to populate its downtown, it absolutely has to provide walkable places for people who decide to live there. That includes a dog park. No one who owns a dog wants to go to a park where there are violent dogs. As stated, people who use dog parks self-police. The very idea of a dog park is for dogs and their people to socialize peacefully. Yes, there will be barking because dogs bark and they bark when they're happy. Providing a dog park that is walkable from downtown is an amenity that is vital to a populated downtown, and it's healthy for dogs and their people. I applaud the comment that it increases one's carbon footprint to have to drive to a dog park on the outskirts of town. When dog parks aren't provided, people will use other parks to let their dogs run off-leash. It happens in my neighborhood all the time. It also happens at County Farm Park, on the playground at Pittsfield School and at Sheffield Park. I urge Ann Arbor to provide more neighborhood dog parks. The people at New Hope Baptist say they don't want a dog park close to their church, that they have people who are afraid of dogs--I can respect that. But dogs are much safer in an enclosed area than when they're running free in an open park. I bet people are already letting their dogs run free in West Park. I simply don't understand Lawter's statement that he's skeptical of an alternative spot being found. West Park is fairly large and surely another spot in West Park can be designated. I also like the suggestion that a temporary dog park be set up in the original designated spot to see if the fears of the Church are well-founded. It's certainly possible that Church and dogs just might get along.
Thu, Jan 24, 2013 : 12:17 a.m.
why dont we burn some crosses too? just to test the fear. think about what youre saying please.
Basic Bob
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 10:17 p.m.
How many of those downtown apartments allow dogs?
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 9:39 p.m.
I'd be interested in an explanation from the City as to why the location across from the church (and abutting the sidewalk) is the only place in the entire park system where a dog park is viable. They say they have studied other locations, but why were they deemed inappropriate? I find it very hard to believe that with all of our open park area there's nowhere else for it to go. What about (just as an example) Almendinger? It's open, not particularly scenic, and within walking distance of downtown. Or as someone suggested, one of the many sections of Vets' Park?
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 9:36 p.m.
Whoa! For all you folks that think we dog owners don't deserve your financial support. Remember this: We dog owners must have CITY DOG TAGS. I pay $48.00 for my 3 dogs every 3 years and for this I get--- ZIP! I have been paying for over 28 years and get nothing for it, absolutely nothing. Unless I wont get a serious fine if my dog gets loose in the city and gets caught by Animal control. Fat Chance, try getting animal control to come out and then time that. All you complainers about loose running dogs, I sympathize with you. My dog is under control and I avoid people when we walk, that said, YOU should be the ones pushing FOR areas where the dogs are behind fences when off lead, not oppose it. You are safer that way. Frankly dog owners, if we don't get more support from the City I suggest we NOT renew our dog licenses. What? You think they, are with the limited police, going to come after us in our homes? When we protest financially then we will be taken seriously!
Suzanne Taylor
Fri, Jan 25, 2013 : 2:55 a.m.
I'm not as ticked off about the city dog license as I am about the Dog Park permit fees. Is everyone aware that, in order to use the [small] Olsen Dog Park, an AA dog-owner has to pay the full city fee for the use of BOTH Swift Run (at least 6 times as big as Olsen and with separate big/small dog areas) and Olsen?? On the other hand, if you want to use ONLY Swift Run, the fee is reduced! Am I the only one ticked off about this? or is it, perhaps, that I'm the only one stupid enough to pay for a Dog Park permit?
Thu, Jan 24, 2013 : 2:53 p.m.
I recently had occasion to call for help about an injured animal (not a dog). Animal Control (based with HSHV) showed up within the hour.
Unusual Suspect
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 11:53 p.m.
The thing is, dfossil, the thinking that having a dog park nearby will lead to responsible dog ownership is naive. Considering past behavior, I think the west side should be the last neighborhood to get a dog park. Giving that neighborhood one now only rewards them for their illegal activities (Slauson) over the last several years.
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 11:01 p.m.
This is the most sensible article I have read in these comments -- thanks dfossil....
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 9:30 p.m.
Did anyone ask the dogs what they'd like?
Suzanne Taylor
Fri, Jan 25, 2013 : 2:46 a.m.
In my experience, dogs like (1) affection/attention, (2) treats, (3) other dogs, (4) people (not necessarily in that order, depending on the particular dog). So . . . since dog parks provide lots of (1), (3), and (4), what the eff are we arguing about? (AND, I might add that some dog owners may inadvertently carry small treats in their pockets so (2) could might well be an attraction). Aren't dogs wonderful?
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 11:52 p.m.
Away from other dogs? It is a DOG PARK! And truth be told, the fact that it is near the landfill is probably lost on the dogs.
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 11:02 p.m.
Dogs like dog runs. They particularly like them when they are not hidden away in some landfill somewhere away from other people and other dogs.
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 10:30 p.m.
Dogs like just about anything.
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 9:24 p.m.
"We believe that God created people to be in community, and that we are at our best when we're in relationship to one another," the church's website reads. "Therefore, we provide this dog park not only as a fun safe place where dogs can get good exercise, but our greatest hope is that dog owners will make friends here and enjoy great conversations together." Translation: We need your money, so we're gonna bribe you with this nice dog park. We don't care if joined our church because of Christian faith or not. Just join us.
C. Montgomery Burns
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 9:19 p.m.
"Release the hounds."
Thu, Jan 24, 2013 : 12:27 a.m.
C. Montgomery Burns Park
Basic Bob
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 10:15 p.m.
I guess Burns Park is out of the question.
Peter Eckstein
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 9:07 p.m.
"If some congregation members are afraid of dogs, and I truly believe they are sincere in that fear, then I say to the members of the New Hope Baptist Church, please be open to change," said John Lawter, a former parks commissioner who has led the effort for more dog parks in Ann Arbor. I do not know Mr. Lawter, but I find this comment to be extremely arrogant. Many phobias are deep-seated--fear of heights, crowds, airplanes, dogs, etc. It is not very helpful to tell those who have them that it is just time they just got over it because he would like a place to run his dog. This is especially true when there is an alternative West Park location farther away from the church and when there has apparently been little negotiation with the church over the possibility of keeping the park locked around the time of Sunday services and other designated events.
Thu, Jan 24, 2013 : 12:21 a.m.
arrogance doesnt even touch lawter's attitude. recall this guy was the 'leader' of the group that was letting their dogs have a weekly run at a local elementary school. yes, kids love playing on dog poop. all the while he was a parks commissioner and head of grounds for the U.
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 10:08 p.m.
Group phobias?
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 9:23 p.m.
The rest of the world shouldn't have to dance around their phobia's either!
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 9:04 p.m.
My relatives live in Buffalo. Lots of dog walkers and play areas in Delaware Park, there. Plenty of churches around there, too. They ALL get along. Me personaly ? I own a pack of large dogs. I think its a bit cruel to not have enough property of your own for your dog(s) to enjoy what comes natural to them. Hunting, sniffing, frisbee, body slamming, and fetch are all the 'apps' a dog comes with. Don't have the land ? Get a cat.
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 11:24 p.m.
Used to be that nobody ranking lower than an earl could lawfully own a Scottish Deerhound. Guess times haven't changed much since the middle ages since you're proposing the same for those of us who are not landed gentry in the twenty-first century.
Jim H
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 9:01 p.m.
The church could be missing a fundraising and teaching moment: WWFD bracelets and lessons - What Would Fido Doo?
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 10:28 p.m.
Doo-Doo, obviously.
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 9 p.m.
How about converting a diamond at Vets? It's hardly an idyllic park, already has fencing, and has ample parking. WOOF!
Thu, Jan 24, 2013 : 12:30 a.m.
Yeah, who are those ball players anyways, taking up all that space with their games and their league fees and their team fees!?!
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 11:03 p.m.
While this is a GREAT idea, there aren't enough diamonds there as there are -- they are all reserved from March through October. The location would be great, though.
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 8:54 p.m.
Now that this is taken care of, when are we going to leash those murderous cats?
Thu, Jan 24, 2013 : 12:06 a.m.
My cats say "bring it on!"
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 9:38 p.m.
I know.
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 9:19 p.m.
By all means. I personally have been jumped on by a very large tabby, and menaced by a pack of five (yep 5) snarling kittens.
Brian Kuehn
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 8:46 p.m.
If someone adjacent to or near a proposed dog park has an objection, then the City should find another spot. Once the church and its members objected, we were correct in not proceeding. I would not want a dog park across the street from my home unless it was well set back and there was little visual, auditory or olfactory evidence of the location. If and when we create more dog parks, the City should also use some of the fees collected to enforce the leased dog ordinance on the books. There are quite a number of dog-owning scofflaws who appear to believe that leash laws only apply to certain people at certain times. When we erect ordinances and fail to enforce them, we create an attitude in many citizens that they can pick and choose which ordinances they want to follow. That is a recipe for chaos.
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 9 p.m.
A recipe for chaos is to allow anyone to veto any nearby public projects they object to. There will always be someone or a group of people who object to any public initiative, so to simply say the city should find another spot means nothing would ever get done. You'd have no parks, swimming pools or softball diamonds. I'm sure there were some people who had objections when New Hope Baptist decided to build in that neighborhood - who wants all that music and singing on Sunday mornings and certain weeknights, let alone the traffic? When you live in a community, you have to accept that not every decision will cater to your desires - you need to save your energy to fight the things that are real problems and not just things you find mildly annoying.
Unusual Suspect
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 8:46 p.m.
Before we do anything more for the dog-owner community (of which I am one) I would first like to see some more responsibility exhibited by them. Bird Hills, for example. Everybody knows it's full of people who break the law and walk their dogs off the leash. We have all had the experience of their dogs behaving aggressively toward and getting in fights with our leashed dogs, while they stand there and say, "Oh, it's OK, he's really a nice dog." Let's get somebody out there to write some stiff tickets.
Suzanne Taylor
Fri, Jan 25, 2013 : 2:27 a.m.
I agree that dog-owners should take more responsibility for their dogs. I, too, am a dog-owner. I've experienced similar problems (although not with my current dog) at city and county parks on the northeast side of AA. (I've owned dogs at my current residence for 20 years.) After adopting a 7-year-old dog last year, I purchased a "Dog Park Permit" for the Olsen Park Dog Park in NE Ann Arbor (well, actually, I was forced to pay for a permit for BOTH city dog parks . . . but let's not get into that lest my blood pressure be raised)) . . .To continue . . .ONLY ONCE has any City official EVER checked for the Park permit! So much for the city's help if you're looking for "enforcement of any kind." And that's in a Dog Park!!! Do you really expect any kind of enforcement in city/county parks? As for irresponsible dog-owners . . . I wish I could recommend a solution. Some common sense is required and, unfortunately, that isn't always readily available. :-( The Swift Run Dog Park has separate areas for big and small dogs. Olsen Park, on the other hand, is a very small one-area park. I would, indeed, describe my dog as "nice," but she weighs 80 lbs., for Pete's sake! I don't want her playing with 15-20-pound mini-dogs. All she'd have to do is accidentally sit on one of them and it'd be all over. And owners of 15-20-pound mini-dogs should know better than to throw their peewees in with 60-120-pound dogs!! (Needless to say, I and my dog leave the park when mini-dogs enter.) Asking the city to issue tickets is just not feasible It's a matter of educating dog owners (well, at least those dog owners who are currently without any common sense!!).
Brian Kuehn
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 8:48 p.m.
A very appropriate observation. Well said.
Ryan J. Stanton
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 8:40 p.m.
I was able to connect with the pastor from New Hope just now and have added some additional comments from him to the story.
average joe
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 8:38 p.m.
Missy Stults- "We looked at some statistics and we know we have tens of thousands of dogs," she said. "We don't have enough space to accommodate all of those dogs,....", and "The presence of well-planned dog parks and off-leash hours, she said, would send a clear message that the city welcomes dog owners". Is she saying that we have too many dogs already, or do we need more?
Thu, Jan 24, 2013 : 4:18 a.m.
LOL Bob.
Basic Bob
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 10:13 p.m.
Bring us your tired, your poor, your huddled mastiffs.
Elaine F. Owsley
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 8:32 p.m.
A friend with her big dog, and I with my little dog, spent a great hour at the dog park in Pinckney. Everyone polices their own dog, picks up after it, disposes of the deposit in the container provided and enjoys watching the dogs run and play together - much better than people do sometimes. Dogs are God's creatures, they enjoy a nice sunny day of play and their owners are thankful that the Arise Church has given them that opportunity.
Suzanne Taylor
Fri, Jan 25, 2013 : 1:18 a.m.
I agree, Elaine. Although I'm not familiar with the Pinckney Dog Park , I and my dog, frequent the Olsen Park Dog Park in northeast Ann Arbor. I regularly contribute "poop" bags to the communal "poop bag box" (provided by the City of Ann Arbor) and always bring a gallon of water to furnish the four water bowls at the site. As with Pinckney, the human users of the Olsen Dog Park remove their dog waste and act responsibly. To have anyone imply that, as a rule, dog-owners in AA (or Pinckney) are irresponsible is an incredible slur . . . and incredibly FALSE! And thank God for the Arise Church. Indeed, "all God's creatures,"
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 8:23 p.m.
"Break this culture of fear......an ugly thing." I think that dog folks, and those that think that everyone should welcome off-leash dogs, need to embrace some reality. We have leash laws for a reason. In the past few months, while minding my business in City parks, I have been jumped on by a huge great dane, and menaced by a pack of five (yep, 5) off-leash snarling dogs. You are not paranoid if someone (or someone's dog) is really after you. So let's stop minimizing the risk presented by dogs. That said, I'd love to see two things in AA: (1) a dog park that doesn't sap other valuable park land, and (2) no off leash dogs anywhwere else. As for #1, I am conflicted by using public resources for a splinter need, but I guess we have skate parks and ice rinks, so what the heck. And maybe a user fee would make sense. No one gets into Vet's Ice Arena for free, why should I subsidize a dog park? As for #2, in my decades of trail running in AA parks, I say "good luck." Dog owners seem to be an arrogant and self-assured group: "Maybe dogs are supposed to be on a leash, BUT NOT MY DOG. MY DOG IS PERFECT." Except, it's not perfect. It's been jumping on me and chasing me and snarling me and nipping at me for years. If dog owners want special treatment, they should start by abiding with the laws now on the books. But instead, they just appropriate public places as their self-appointed dog park.
Woman in Ypsilanti
Thu, Jan 24, 2013 : 2:59 p.m.
So you are ok with a dog park but only if it is located on the least desirable possible park land? Sorry but dog owners are citizens too and have just as much right to use the best park space as you do.
Thu, Jan 24, 2013 : 4:06 a.m.
Ah yes, gang dogs - "West Park Story" - starring the the Barks and the Pets.
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 10:54 p.m.
I don't know how this conversation turned to off-leash dogs. I thought it was about a fenced dog park. I love dogs, but I hate hate hate seeing dogs off-leash, because it makes some people nervous, but more importantly because a simple squirrel can tease a dog into the street, and that ruins everyone's day. They also get into garbage, hang out with gang dogs and become uncivilized.
Wolf's Bane
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 8:22 p.m.
I don't own a dog, but I can see how turning part of West Park into a Dog Park might not be a bad idea. The land sits idle most of the time. I say this as a neighborhood resident. I also hope a dog park will deter irresponsible dog owners from letting their animals roam the neighborhood everything.
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 8:50 p.m.
Bet:n irresponsible jerks will continue to be.
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 8:20 p.m.
Dog Park in the what is probably the most central to downtown park in the city? Probably a good idea. How about a compromise? Move the location a bit West within West Park so that it is midway between the church and the houses to the West and South. The church should have no issues with this. I do not see how this impacts the ability to worship. As far as being offensive, there are many other things that the church could find offensive if they chose to - not dogs running around stiffing each other!
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 8:18 p.m.
I love the comment to one lady (I think it was a lady) about how she wants to reduce her 'carbon footprint'! LOL. Only in Ann Arbor...
Woman in Ypsilanti
Thu, Jan 24, 2013 : 2:56 p.m.
She probably doesn't want to know the carbon footprint of your average medium sized dog. IIRC it is comparable to a small SUV driven 10,000 miles a year. :) But still, regardless of her reasons, she doesn't want to have to drive to access the dog parks and she is entitled to have the city where she lives consider her needs when planning park usage.
Thu, Jan 24, 2013 : 4:03 a.m.
"West Park Story" - starring the the Barks and the Pets.
Thu, Jan 24, 2013 : 12:05 a.m.
She must have a silicon-based dog.
Basic Bob
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 10:11 p.m.
People who want to reduce their carbon footprint need to stop exhaling so much carbon.
average joe
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 8:46 p.m.
That person must work at home too....
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 8:17 p.m.
Why don't they put the dog park on the other side of West Park, away from the Church? Or in the big field on top of the hill behind the bandshell?
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 9:07 p.m.
Green reiterated his congregation's concerns on Wednesday, and once again clarified the church wouldn't be opposed to a dog park at another location. "We have no objection to a dog park in central Ann Arbor at all, even in West Park, but we definitely would not appreciate it in front of the church at the location they had proposed," he said. "We're not anti-dog and we're not anti-dog park. We're just anti-dog park for the location that was proposed."
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 8:17 p.m.
Why should the taxpayers fund a park where dog owners can bring their dogs? It sounds like they just want a place where their dogs can $%#@ instead of dirtying up the owner's yards. If you don't have a yard big enough for a dog then. Don't buy a dog! What's next? Cat parks? Ferret parks??
Thu, Jan 24, 2013 : 3:08 p.m.
A cat-and-ferret park might be interesting to watch.
Thu, Jan 24, 2013 : 2:23 a.m.
My observations is that those who use dog parks are very self-policing when it comes to cleaning up after their dogs. They want the area in which their dogs run and play to be clean. Second, many of us believe that have public amenities like libraries, parks, dog parks, nature trails, recycle centers, quality public schools, good public transportation, etc. enhance the community and make it more attractive to interesting people who contribute to its vibrancy and economy. So since you played the "if ... don't ..." card, let me play it back on you. If you don't like a community with nice public amenities don't live here. I'm sure you'd be happier elsewhere.
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 8:36 p.m.
Why should taxpayers fund a park where parents can bring their kids? Where fat people can play softball? Where hormone-crazed young people can stroll with their objects of sexual desire? Where our nation's youth can be taught the un-American game of soccer? What's next? Jogging paths? Bicycle trails? Oh, the socialist horror!
David Cahill
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 7:42 p.m.
The supporters of a dog park across the street from this predominantly African-American church should contemplate how they themselves would feel about dogs if their parents/relatives had been attacked by police dogs in the South a generation ago.
Woman in Ypsilanti
Thu, Jan 24, 2013 : 2:54 p.m.
I have a feeling that church wouldn't like it if people were protesting *their* existence and right to be where they are because of some past bad experience with Christians.
Thu, Jan 24, 2013 : 6:11 a.m.
"History lives a long time..." But, it remains just that. History. History not from one generation back but two. We're talking 40 years here. We learn from history. We needn't be trapped in it and continue to live as if the world has never changed. In a nation where whites will soon be a minority, the President is a black man and his family owns and loves a nice, big dog, it seems outlandish to portend that a dog park--a common sight throughout the nation--recreates an era of sheriffs with hoses and police dogs unleashed charging against unarmed protesters. I guarantee the dogs held no animus based on race 40 years back. It was their handlers who trained and directed them to attack black people. This type of pandering is as nonsensical as saying we should think how we would feel if our grandparents saw white percale sheets at Target because it is reminiscent of the KKK.
Thu, Jan 24, 2013 : 6:08 a.m.
I agree with Mr. Cahill, and it's not just about churches. ANY major establishment would have a problem with a dog park right across the street from it. Same with a department store or a restaurant; they would have the same problem with customers doing their business as well. There ARE places where dog owners can have a park that is NOT major buildings such as mentioned above.
Snarf Oscar Boondoggle
Thu, Jan 24, 2013 : 5:43 a.m.
thank you dave .. history lives a looooong time adn should not be so flippantly disregraded as seems to be the general huffle-puff here.
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 9:29 p.m.
I assure you neither myself or my Children who are decendants are not afraid of Dogs, get in the NOW please!
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 8:29 p.m.
I doubt that many of them had their relatives attacked by yorkies, labs, border collies, chihuahuas, Jack Russell terriers, etc. etc.
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 8:22 p.m.
So since a Jewish family was attacked by Germans a generation ago, that family and all their descendants should hate and fear all Germans? Your comment is not rational.
Ghost of Tom Joad
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 8:16 p.m.
yeah...that doesn't really hold water. If we extend this logic, then we'd see the same outrage from synagogues.
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 7:58 p.m.
You have got to be kidding! I don't even know what to say to this comment except that this kind of pandering attitude is what is keeping all of us from moving forward.
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 7:51 p.m.
Thats like me protesting Metzgers because my family is Jewish. Makes no sense. They and everyone else need to move on and stop with the woe is me and my people crap. That goes for EVERYONE who does that.
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 7:32 p.m.
If church members are so afraid of dogs that would be in a fenced-in area that the potential for the dog park may be nixed, then how would they react if citizens were walking their dogs on the sidewalk adjacent to the church? What next, a sidewalk that prohibits dogs?
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 7:31 p.m.
Tactically speaking, this is going to be a very hard thing to go through with. Once the church played the race card (as in, your French Bulldog brings back terrifying memories of snarling attack dogs in Birmingham, Alabama) they will stick to it until the end. Anybody supporting the dog park will become de facto racists. Do we have many pols in this particular city who are willing to stand up to that charge?
Thu, Jan 24, 2013 : 3:12 p.m.
"Once the church played the race card (as in, your French Bulldog brings back terrifying memories of snarling attack dogs in Birmingham, Alabama) . . ." Again, source, please?
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 7:12 p.m.
Hey now, this is Ann Arbor, where the wants of a few outweigh the needs of the many!
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 7:06 p.m.
First they came for the twenty pound carp, then for the dogs ...
Chris Blackstone
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 6:58 p.m.
If people are so keen to exercise their dogs, why not walk them to one of the two current off-leash dog parks? Walking is great exercise, for both humans and dogs. Also, there is undoubtedly a racial angle to this whole issue, particularly when the church is a historically African-American church while the surrounding community is overwhelmingly white. That's the elephant in the room that no one has really talked about. Finally, dogs are fine, but they're just dogs, not people. They don't have "cultures" and they don't care where they run. Why doesn't someone volunteer their backyard for the dog park?
Thu, Jan 24, 2013 : 6:56 p.m.
I walk my dog 3-5 miles every day, depending on the cold now ... my pup loves the walks but they pale in comparison to the joy he gets socializing at a dog park. Also we do have a good sized backyard and love to have the neighbors bring over their dogs. "Culture" is just a label and most people don't understand dogs (let alone other people) ... I don't know if the dogs know what's going on or have a "culture" but I do know they they have a great time socializing with other dogs at parks and with people/dogs during walks.
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 10:44 p.m.
@Chris, "Finally, dogs are fine, but they're just dogs, not people. They don't have "cultures" and they don't care where they run. Why doesn't someone volunteer their backyard for the dog park?" Dog owners are people. We pay taxes for other people's recreation, such as the pools, the rinks, the baseball and soccer fields, etc., etc. Our preferred recreation might be to see our dogs play with each other, and not only do we pay the property taxes that support these dog parks, but we pay for dog licenses and a separate dog park license. The owners get to know each other, share training tips and the majority of them clean up after their dogs diligently. Btw, there is no sidewalk out on Pontiac Trail past Arrowwood, so walking there with dogs is impossible.
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 8:39 p.m.
You might be overreaching on the racial aspect, Chris Blackstone, making it perhaps a bigger deal than it really is. Let me talk about the elephant in the room then. It actually may not matter to people who are voicing their opinions. Have you thought of that? Speaking for myself, most of my own comments happened before I knew there was any kind of racial predominance at that church. And once it was brought up, it changed my opinions not one bit.
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 8:11 p.m.
I guess I have to know what you mean by racial angle, as the mother of 3 racially mixed now grown adults, I assure you my response has nothing to do with ones skin color, ethnic background, or religious preferences. Its the blaming the fact that their members are predominately from the South, with a "different" attitude or view of Dogs, that is ridiculous!
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 7:49 p.m.
Cinnabar - In Chris's defense he did not bring race into this. And Chip, the CDC estimates over 4.5 million people are bitten by dogs each year, with 31,000 requiring reconstructive surgery. The "dog as weapon" argument is lazy.
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 7:42 p.m.
Too use your phraseology, it's just a church. I thought we separated church and State (or City in this case). If the congregations' members who live on the block or in the immediate neighborhood also have an issue then by all mean express them. As for the church, they reside in the community. In this case, a community that appears to view dog parks as a positive addition. The congregation is the one that should decide if the community fits their needs, not how to bend the community to theirs.
Chip Reed
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 7:39 p.m.
It would seem that race is a factor here. White people have probably not had the experience of dogs being used as a weapon against them. Fifty years ago, this was a not uncommon practice in some parts of the USA.
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 7:25 p.m.
Chris just to set the recond straight the surrounding community used to be overwhelmingly African-American. At least it was when I grew up there, and I take offence to you bringing race into this.
Ryan J. Stanton
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 7:08 p.m.
Walking from West Park to Swift Run would be about a four-hour roundtrip walk, not counting the hour or two you spend at the dog park.
Dog Guy
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 6:52 p.m.
Ann Arbor is most fortunate to have John Lawter as a former parks commissioner.
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 6:51 p.m.
Leaders of the historically black congregation communicated to city officials that a number of the church's members were born in the South and have different attitudes about dogs, and they simply see a dog park as incompatible with their ability to worship freely. Well you are in the NORTH now, times change, and as Christians you should not be caught up in this controversy. If this was a strip club I could see the problem, however this is a dog park, get over it!
Thu, Jan 24, 2013 : 3:11 p.m.
"Leaders of the historically black congregation communicated to city officials that a number of the church's members were born in the South and have different attitudes about dogs . . ." Source, please?
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 7:52 p.m.
"...If this was a strip club I could see the problem..." Why don't we just agree to disagree.
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 7:15 p.m.
Yeah git!
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 6:47 p.m.
Owning a large dog in an urban environment is irresponsible.
Thu, Jan 24, 2013 : 6:34 p.m.
I always felt like it was always the smaller dogs that were the toughest ... I've got a big dog and he always hightails it when the little ones start barking and running circles 'round him. Dogs are so cool.
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 9:15 p.m.
Size makes a difference in their danger to humans. If either of the dogs pictured in this story were off leash and charged at me I'd grab my keys and get ready to defend my life.
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 8:59 p.m.
"Owning a large dog in an urban environment is irresponsible." Old wives tale. No it isn't. The exercise needs of dogs have nothing to do with their size. Likewise, aggressiveness has nothing to do with their size either, only how they were raised makes a difference.
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 8:35 p.m.
What is this continuing thing about large dogs? Where does it say a dog park is for large dogs?
Elaine F. Owsley
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 8:22 p.m.
Small dogs use the dog parks, too. Dogs get along better than some people.
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 7:14 p.m.
Owning a large dog and not having a place to exercise it is irresponible. Which came first?
Ghost of Tom Joad
Wed, Jan 23, 2013 : 6:43 p.m.
what does it matter what the residents think? Aren't we always supposed to kow tow to the religious establishment lest we be seen as ungodly sinners?
Thu, Jan 24, 2013 : 5:54 a.m.
It isn't the religious establishment here. There are no church laws I'm aware of in any Christian faith that dictate or prohibit dog parks. Quite the contrary, all Christian faiths promote stewardship of the earth's creations. This congregation has concerns that it has raised implicating racial prejudice going back to the 1950s and 1960s and earlier. Whether that's bona fide or being used politically, I can't tell. But, it was effective in halting the PAC where claims of noise, smell and disrespectful decorum didn't sway the PAC initially when this story first broke. West Park is a big park. Seems like another location in the area should be a good compromise. Everybody wants to be good neighbors and not foment ill will. The fear though is that the City Council will table this and bury it. It should put a time table on reassessing other nearby locations and demand the PAC provide an evaluation of possible sites.


text:
More Confessions of a Weekend Golfer: Playing
on One Good Knee
I watched the U.S. Open at Torrey Pines from a special vantage point. I was on my couch, recovering from knee surgery 10 days earlier with my left leg elevated, icing it off and on all day. I watched in awe as Tiger Woods put on one of the most amazing shows in sports history against Rocco Mediate. I couldn't help but wince along with Tiger's obvious pain, partly because I was in pain too. Every time I stood up to use my crutches to get somewhere, I couldn't believe how much it hurt. And watching Tiger, we all knew that something wasn't right with him.
Of course, a day later we all knew. Tiger was headed for surgery on his left knee, and then he would be rehabbing it for six to nine months. In the back of my mind, I asked the question: can an injured athlete return to top form? Names that jumped into my head were Tiger, Ernie Els, Joe Namath, Tom Brady and The Shotmaker.
My introduction to the world of sports orthopedic medicine wasn't quite as dramatic as Tiger's. On Wednesday morning, May 28, I was in New York City attending a meeting. When I stood up, I heard a popping or snapping sound from my left knee. I felt excruciating pain and could not walk.
I was told to have an MRI immediately. The results confirmed a torn meniscus. My surgeon, David Altchek, an orthopedic surgeon at the New York Hospital for Special Surgery, advised me that it should be repaired by arthroscopic surgery. The surgery was scheduled for the following Tuesday, June 3, at 7 a.m. With a warm smile on his face, Dr. Altchek said he thought I might be out two months . . . and that my summer would still include golf, but later than usual. Inasmuch as he is an avid golfer, too, I felt like a "brother" was going to be taking care of me.
During surgery, Dr. Altchek found crystals (a preexisting condition) in my left knee. Pathology tests confirmed I had chondrocalcinosis. The next six weeks were the most painful in my life. I was constantly miserable. Getting up to walk to the bathroom each morning was unbearable. At first using crutches, then later a cane, I hobbled along. During my agonizing recovery, my personality changed. I was always depressed. Because of my pain, I didn't want to be around people. Even my friends. I found comfort, almost strangely, by focusing on losing weight. That battle was victorious. As I write this draft I am about 180 pounds (I lost about 25 pounds), my lowest weight in many, many years.
FRIDAY, JULY 18, 6:30 a.m.
(six weeks after surgery) I was watching the British Open. At the time, my friend Greg Norman was surprising everyone by leading the second round at 1-under. Also, Camilo Villegas (who would go on to win the BMW Championship on September 7, and was on the cover of Cigar Aficionado back in August 2006) had just shot a 5-under 65 and was one stroke behind Norman. Neither result was expected. As you may remember, the golf world was watching Norman with bated breath.
But today was an even bigger day for me. Pain or no pain, I was starting my return to the one thing that I had missed so much in the previous six weeks . . . golf. I was going to have a one-hour lesson with Jeff Warne, my golf teacher and the pro at my club, The Bridge, in Bridgehampton, New York. I was nervous and excited. Even though I still had pain in my knee, I couldn't just sit on the sidelines anymore. My physical therapist, Sinead Fitz Gibbon, told me, "It's OK to begin playing golf . . . but go very slowly."
The annual two-day Member-Guest tournament at The Bridge was a week away. Being an optimist, I signed up for it but knowing when the time came I might not be ready. After all, I didn't want to hurt myself further and complicate my recovery. But I wanted to play so badly.
I now know what athletes mean when they say they are "playing through the pain." I felt pain just standing and had trouble keeping my balance. Jeff had me swing at about 70 percent. "Keep your feet closer together," he said. "Ball further back in your stance when you are set up to swing." While I did not hit the ball well, I was encouraged. When the lesson was over, I was so excited I drove home with my golf glove and golf shoes still on. When I realized this, I smiled. I was so hopeful that I would be able to return to my passion that I had missed soooo much!
I played in the Member-Guest. I can't say much more. This was my fifth year of playing in this tournament with the same partner, my good friend Gene Zuriff. He was a good sport, waiting on standby, depending on if I could play. My game was so-so, but we had fun. I limped around the course for two days in significant pain . . . aided by three Oxycodone pills each day and using a golf cart. Needless to say, we didn't win.
(10 weeks after surgery) The Bridge's annual Club Championship was this weekend. I had signed up two weeks before on the hope I would have improvement in my knee and the pain would finally be gone.
The pain was definitely lessening but it had not disappeared. The worst part was at night in bed, when my leg would tighten up. I would wake up in the middle of the night, take two Tylenol Extra Strengths, ice it, and in a few hours finally fall back to sleep. This had been going on for weeks. It had been the worst summer of my life!
I won my first-round match in my bracket of the Club Championship. I played well and much of the day played with little pain. Thank God, I said to myself, I am fully recovered now to enjoy playing golf the rest of the summer. I was soooo happy. No doubt, many of you can relate to this feeling of joy. Or, so I thought.
My next match was the next day. I arrived at the driving range at 8:45 a.m. for a 9:30 tee time. After the third swing of my sand wedge, I was in pain. I could not bend or turn my left knee and began to freak out. I immediately walked to my golf cart and downed two Oxycodones. I told my caddie, Alex, about my condition and advised him I wasn't sure I could play. We went to the putting green, where I practiced putting on one leg while waiting for the pills to kick in. I knew what I should do, but had convinced myself I could play through the pain. In retrospect, I should have looked my opponent in his eye and said, "I must default."
We played. For most of the front nine, I played pretty well without hardly using my legs. I swung my arms and shot surprisingly straight, especially my tee shots. Not long, but straight! On the front, I shot 46, an amazing score for a cripple! Unfortunately, my opponent, Andrew Schwartz, shot lights out . . . a 41. By the turn, the pain in my knee was almost unbearable. I hit into a series of deeply sloped sand traps. I couldn't get out, so I picked up. On hole No. 14, a par 3, I parred it. So did my opponent. The match was over for me. I couldn't take any more pain. And Andrew was playing great golf. Also, he was a great guy. I look forward to playing with him in the future. But it was time to go home.
By Saturday night, I realized I had done a VERY STUPID thing. My leg had swelled and I was in a great deal of pain. I knew I had taken a giant step backwards in my recovery. I knew I was going to pay big-time, and I did. My depression returned. I would not rule out suicide.
(three months after surgery) I was finally beginning to feel like a human being again. Physical therapy appointments three times a week had helped a great deal.
Over a period of a week, I played 12 holes at Sebonack with Steve Ross, nine holes at The Bridge with my great pal Tony Bryant and 18 at Shinnecock with Ray Herrmann, John Esposito and his son John Jr. On the final round, I played without pain even though I was still hobbling a bit.
My mind was centered on only one thing: would I be well enough to play in the Dunhill Links Championship in Scotland in early October? I wasn't sure I could walk three consecutive days. At the Dunhill tournament, there are no carts.
(three months and a week after surgery) At least weekly I had been on the phone with my good friend from South Africa, Johann Rupert. Johann is the organizer behind the Dunhill Links Championship. "How's your knee doing? Are you coming to the Dunhill?" he had asked. All along I had been telling him, "My progress has been slow. I will decide by mid-September, it's up to my doctor."
Well today, I had my appointment with Dr. Altchek to review my knee's recovery. I was brought into one of his private examination rooms where he asked me what was going on with my knee. I told him that the pain was mostly gone, but that my knee felt a little weak and unstable, and while I could walk up stairs, awkwardly, I was unable to walk down steps. He then gave me a few exercises that he said should help take care of this.
I finally asked him about going to the Dunhill Links Championship. He asked when it was. I explained, in one month in Scotland. He then uttered, "I think you could and should go." A big smile took over my face. I wanted to kiss and hug him! My saga of pain, depression and contemplation of suicide was over. In October, I would be off to the Dunhill Cup. The Shotmaker is back!

subset: commoncrawl


text:
- "Outdoor knife for all-purpose, heavy-duty use. Perfect for those who need a rugged knife. Includes black leather sheath. Model JS-2938."
- — GTA Vice City website
- "This carbon steel 7" bladed knife is dual edged with a serrated spine to provide improved stabbing and thrusting capabilities."
- ―GTA V description on the Rockstar Games Social Club.
The Hawk & Little Knife is a melee weapon found across the GTA franchise.
GTA San Andreas
In GTA Vice City, the Knife strongly resembles a large Kukri blade, it deals moderate damage, and always inflicts a blood effect on impact.The Knife is a moderate weapon that allows the player to attack without a firearm and, in Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas, allows stealth kills that don't attract unwanted attention. It takes up the "melee" weapon slot.
In GTA San Andreas, some prostitutes and street criminals wield the knife. It is used in many missions in the game like Madd Dogg's Rhymes, Amphibious Assault, The Da Nang Thang, Dam and Blast and Vertical Bird. The Knife is more than just a simple melee weapon. If CJ is aiming behind an opponent, he will execute a stealth kill, quietly slitting the victim's throat, useful when the player is trying to avoid detection and doesn't have a Silenced 9mm. The Knife only produces one wanted star when used to stealth kill a police officer or kills many people in a short amount of time.
The GTA IV rendition of the Knife resembles the UC-RB2 knife. It can be purchased from Little Jacob for $100. Alternatively, it can be picked up from Eddie Low during his second encounter and from Dardan Petrela in the mission Bleed Out. Although silent kills like in GTA San Andreas are not in the game, 5 to 6 strikes with the knife will kill an opponent, and it will not warrant the player a wanted level. This can easily kill an enemy on single player or multiplayer because 4 to 6 quick taps of the Circle button on the PlayStation 3 or the B button on Xbox 360 while locked on with this will either kill or critically injure anyone. Armor does not protect against knife attacks. The Knife can also be used for a one-hit kill counter-attack, by dodging an attack with the knife equipped, and pressing the attack button. Some GTA IV players favor the Baseball Bat over the Knife due to higher damage, but the slower attack speed is an opening for the target to return attacks. With the Knife, its possible to kill a target without him being able to recover at all.
The Knife looks nearly identical to the Knife found in GTA IV, except for slightly different serrated edges. The Knife can be bought from Ammu-Nation for $100, but sometimes it can also be obtained from street criminals. Just like GTA SA, players can perform stealth kills on people. But however, instead of slitting their throat, they simply stab them in the neck. The knife is useful for close encounters, but lacks brute force in comparison to the Crowbar or the Nightstick. The Knife performs similarly to the Broken Bottle in the Beach Bum pack, but still outclasses it. It is the one of two weapons that can be used underwater, the other being the Antique Cavalry Dagger, and thus can be used to fend off sharks.
In-game models
HUD icons
Grand Theft Auto: Vice City
- Ocean Beach - Can be found at the southernmost end of the series of back alleys, just behind the Avec Moi Holidays.
- Malibu Club, Vice Point - On the second floor after completion of "The Job."
- North Point Mall, Vice Point - Can be bought from the Tooled Up tool store for $90 on the first floor of the mall.
- Along with the Meat Cleaver, the knife is sometimes dropped by one of the three chefs in the mission Back Alley Brawl who comes out after Tommy Vercetti kills Leo Teal.
Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas
- Market, Los Santos - Behind the hospital; in front of a loading bay.
- Verdant Meadows, Bone County - At the Snake Farm, southwest of the landing strip, between two shacks.
- Bone County - In the Unnamed Town, in a trailer park; a block north of Ammu-Nation.
- Can be taken from GSF members (after the 100 Gang Tags has been collected) and Street Criminals, as well Prostitutes.
Grand Theft Auto: Liberty City Stories
- Saint Mark's, Portland - On top of Marco's Bistro.
- Francis International Airport, Shoreside Vale - On the steps of the Shoreside Terminal
Grand Theft Auto: Vice City Stories
- Downtown, Vice City Mainland - It can be found in an alley in southern Downtown.
Grand Theft Auto IV
- South Slopes, Broker - Can be found in an alley to the south of Hickcock Street.
- Rotterdam Hill, Broker - A Knife is at the far end of an alley south of Brucie's apartment off Asparagus Ave, and another Knife is in the alley behind Jermaine Andrews' apartment building on Mohawk Ave.
- Schottler, Broker - Can be found in an alley north of Cayuga Ave.
- Charge Island - Can be found on the Bohan/Algonquin to Charge Island off-ramp of the east Borough Bridge, past the toll booths.
- South Bohan, Bohan - Can be found in a gated section of land off Attica Ave, stuck in a tree.
- Bohan Industrial, Bohan - Can be found in the southernmost garage near the pier, resting on a car body. This Knife is near a Unique Stunt Jump.
- Algonquin and Bohan - Can be found in the center on the north pedestrian walkway of the Northwood Heights Bridge.
- Middle Park West, Algonquin - Can be found next to the parking lot where Niko acquires Bryce Dawkins' Infernus after completing all of Bernie Crane's missions.
- Middle Park, Algonquin - Can be found at the far end of the subterranean rest area, near the restrooms where Luca Silvestri is shot in the mission Meltdown.
- Tudor, Alderney - Can be found just off the northbound on-ramp to the Plumbers Skyway, near a decrepit building and some unused railroad tracks. Alternatively, a parking lot is also next to the location, with some scaffolding which the player can easily climb.
- Some pedestrians use it when they feel threatened.
Grand Theft Auto V
- Can be bought from Ammu-Nation for $100.
- Can be obtained in Fresh Meat from the man that attacked Franklin with it.
- Unlocked at level 1 in GTA Online.
Grand Theft Auto: Vice City
- The knife is bent and the tip is very stubby, looking like an ordinary household knife.
Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas
- The stealth kill has the same animation as the Hasty knife execution from Rockstar's Manhunt.
- There is a glitch involving the Tear Gas. After the Tear Gas is thrown into a crowd, the player can perform a stealth kill on any nearby people. Everyone affected by the gas will undergo the same animation and die at the same time. However there's a rare glitch that if the player performs this within the smoke, they will also die as if someone did the stealth kill on him.
- If the player performs the stealth kill and recruits a gang member at the same time, the gang member will undergo the death animation but will stand back up as if nothing happened.
Grand Theft Auto: Liberty City Stories
- The knife can perform a one-hit kill by hitting the target directly with the third stab.
- Also the first and only time in the 3D Universe, one can see blood drops from the knife right after attacking someone with it, though this happens very rarely
Grand Theft Auto IV
- It is possible to knock a knife out of an opponent's hands with a baseball bat.
Grand Theft Auto V
- The knife, along with the Antique Cavalry Dagger and Brass Knuckles are the only weapons that can be used underwater.
See Also
- Antique Cavalry Dagger, a similar weapon in GTA V.
- Butterfly Knife, a similar weapon in GTA Vice City Stories.


text:
MEC Run Crew - Social Saturday - May18
Our knowledgeable and talented Run Crew Leaders will take you on a heart pumping, foot pounding, run that lasts approximately 45-60 minutes and will cover anywhere from 5km to 10km.
This is supposed to be a fun run so don't be discouraged. We will go as quickly as the fastest person wants to run & have someone there if you are going at a more leisurely pace or just getting into running. It is encouraged that all attendees are comfortable running a 5km continuously before joining the group run. Gear check available at the member service desk.
Just like the postal service; snow, wind, rain can't stop us so please dress appropriately for the weather (*will cancel run if Temperatures reach unsafe levels). Join us solo, with a friend or strollers in tow!
If you are interested in our TRAIL RACE or ROAD RACE series then click the links to register!
This is a social group, so be prepared to go for coffee after the run!
Contact firstname.lastname@example.com with any questions you might have.


text:
CALGARY — A 360-room Residence Inn by Marriott and SilverBirch Conference Centre is planned for Calgary's Beltline neighbourhood at the former site of the Alberta Boot Company.
SilverBirch Hotels & Resorts will develop the project at the corner of 10th Avenue and 5th Street S.W.
Officials, who made the announcement Thursday, said the hotel will be one of the largest Residence Inns in the world and the biggest in Canada.
It will be 33 storeys high and cost more than $100 million.
The planned Residence Inn will cater to business travellers looking for a long-stay hotel close to Calgary's downtown. As an all-suite hotel, rooms will feature full kitchens and separate living and sleeping areas. There will also be access to in-hotel business services and a 24/7 self-serve food and beverage pantry. It will include a terrace lounge and roof deck for relaxation and socializing.
"Calgary has quickly been moving towards being Canada's most important business centre," said Steve Giblin, president and chief executive of SilverBirch Hotels & Resorts. "Residence Inn by Marriott brings the best possible long-stay experience for business travellers to Calgary, by connecting them to their home and office and helping guests balance work and relaxation while travelling.
"We're going to invest a spectacular amount of money."
He said the hotel would employ over 100 people and purchase up to $10 million of goods in the city each year.
The hotel will also feature a 10,000-square-foot SilverBirch Conference Centre.
Also, GWL Realty Advisors plans to build a residential tower on the site. Details of that project will be announced in the near future.
"We're very excited to construct a new hotel and SilverBirch Conference Centre in Calgary's burgeoning Beltline neighbourhood," said Giblin. "One of our focuses as a company is providing business travellers with extended stay hotels that satisfy all their business needs, but also give them a sense of being at home. The Beltline is the best location for us to be able to meet these needs."
SilverBirch Hotels & Resorts expects to begin construction on the Residence Inn by Marriott in 2014. The hotel is scheduled to open in 2016.
Michael Beckley, senior vice-president of lodging development for Marriott Hotels of Canada, said this latest project will be the fifth Marriott hotel in the city.
"We're actually under-represented in Calgary," he said. "We could actually do more. The company actually has 14 brands . . . I've been trying to get a Residence Inn in Calgary for 10 years because there's such a pent-up demand for what we call extended stay where people are moving families, or they're coming in for training or they've been allocated here for a period of time. And there is nothing like it."
SilverBirch Hotels & Resorts manages more than 20 hotels and resorts across Canada. The company manages independent hotels and hotels operating under major franchise brands, such as Marriott, Radisson, Hilton, Quality, Best Western and Ramada.
There are currently more than 600 all-suite Residence Inn by Marriott properties in the U.S., Canada, Europe, Bahrain and Costa Rica.
Calgary Mayor Naheed Nenshi said the Calgary market is growing and it's currently underserved by hotels. He said the Residence Inn by Marriott is a "remarkable investment" which will be an anchoring connection between the Beltline and downtown. It will also be a "jewel of the Calgary skyline."
Jon Jackson, executive director of the Calgary Hotel Association, said the high number of hotel projects in the city is taking place because of the high weekday demand for hotel rooms.
"Calgary being one of the head office capitals of Canada has a huge amount of business travel Monday to Thursday and developers are seeing the opportunity to take advantage of that demand," he said.
Jackson said the hotel association is projecting a 20 per cent growth in available rooms by 2016.
"That will take us from about 12,000 rooms to almost 15,000 rooms," he added.
Jackson said hotel expansion is taking place particularly in the area north of the Calgary International Airport and along 12th Avenue in the Beltline and into the East Village.
Cindy Ady, chief executive of Tourism Calgary, said Calgary is a very successful city when it comes to business travel. In order to grow the tourism industry in Calgary, the city needs more hotel room capacity.
"Calgary has the highest occupancy in the country. It was 70.8 per cent in 2012. That's higher than Toronto. That's higher than Ottawa," said Ady.


text:
Very Stimulating Experience
(Stimulus...the man).
"A King's County Tale" is the brilliant debut album from that has been long overdue from New York rapper Stimulus.
If you think the CD sounds like it's from a rap veteran who has been in the business for some time now, well that observation is accurate. The reason Stimulus sounds so competent and accomplished is because he has been a student of rap since first listening to "Rock the bells" from LL Cool J back in '86. After that experience, he would manage to catch rap attack every Friday on radio—"getting my fix" as Stimulus puts it.
Hip Hop was his solace during a difficult childhood. Having been kicked out of as many as four schools by the time he got to Junior High, the only constant in his life was music. This album sees Stimulus taking a break from funk-hop, New York-based "The real live show," which is a collective of two lyricists (Stimulus and Dionysos) together with a seven piece Jazz/Funk ensemble. As you can imagine, audiences were truly rocked to their boots at every show.
"A king's County Tale" took the best part of two years to complete and the time taken to perfect it has paid off. The first single, "The story" is very unique and interesting in that Stimulus speaks in metaphors in order to tell the story about Hip Hop and its connection to the fan. "One chance" is an upbeat and aggressive track, which encourages us all to enjoy life because we only have one chance at it. The track also features guest appearances from Kae Hoc & Cali Bud who both have tight flows.
"S.T.I.M.U.L.U.S" is a braggadocio track, full of witty and clever lyrics, with minimal production that works well. "So high" features melodic guitar playing over a very musical track. This track is laid back, but that's not surprising when you read the title. "Move" is a half-Reggeaton half-Hip Hop track that works brilliantly, gives credence to the fusion of these two genres.
This album is a very good introduction to Stimulus for those who haven't heard of him. It offers conscious, clever and interesting lyrics and the music, comparable to the "Roots," in the way live instruments are incorporated into Hip Hop. Release date is September 12th on Sugarwater Recordings, and its a worth while experience.
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