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Topic: strange over heating problem? (Read 25191 times)
Jr. Member
Posts: 41
Re: strange over heating problem?
Reply #15 on:
January 24, 2011, 12:03:03 am »
Hi Renaultbiler,
water pump new.. heatgasket new.. both fitted 2 years ago. mileage done 6000 miles since if that.
the RAC man told me its not losing water and he thinks it maybe a blockage in the system, but were??
when he reve'd the engine the water was a pink colour due to the antifreeze but changed colours to a slight brown at times? and then back to pink?
Sr. Member
Posts: 119
Re: strange over heating problem?
Reply #16 on:
January 24, 2011, 02:01:17 pm »
If we are to assume radiator, heater matrixes, expansion tank and cap and all the hoses are OK and in good condition, then either you have been very unlucky and got two thermostats that don't work properly, OR your head gasket is leaking - they don't always go with a bang and in a cloud of steam straight away, they can leak for ages first - this would explain the high pressure, it could be coming from a leaking head gasket. No easy way to tell apart from take the head off though anf then you'll have to replace the gasket in any case!!
Try the themostat first. I am not sure about new ones, but a few years back, you could actually test a thermostat, by hanging it using string, immersed in a pan of boiling water. If it worked, you'd actually see it open. Maybe worth a try once you have taken the thing out of the car??
Jr. Member
Posts: 46
Re: strange over heating problem?
Reply #17 on:
January 25, 2011, 12:57:12 am »
Hi Tony,
I suspect you have a very very small head gasket leak which is pressurising the cooling system.
The clue is that it is retaining the pressure. I bet it would hold it for several days!
A "sniff" test done by a garage
detect this but there may not be enough exhaust gas to detect it. Should be about £15, probably worth a try.
You could also try leaving the cap off with the engine running and watch the coolant for the odd bubble, try sniffing it too, you might smell the exhaust gas yourself.
If you're lucky re-torquing the head might reseal the head gasket but I regret to say it's probably new head gasket time.
All the best,
Sr. Member
Posts: 119
Re: strange over heating problem?
Reply #18 on:
January 26, 2011, 12:14:33 am »
It sounds like GrahamT is right. I know you replaced the head gasket about 2 yrs ago, but it sounds like its failed again. Maybe it was bever re-torqued after initial fitting? Maybe new head bolts should have been used (I am sureabout this but Roy4matra who uses this forum will know the answer to that. I am afrid I don't, but most modern cars have head bolts that stretch when first used, and torqued down - and if re-used a second time, are often a few thousandsths of an inch too long after the first use and thus can never again be fully tightened down as they begin to bottom out in the block?).
It might be worth re-tightening the head bolts, but once a leak starts, I wouldn't hold out much hope that will work as the gasket is probably already damaged by the pressurised water leak. . I have tried it unsuccessfully on other cars.
Its worth a go with the thermostat and the bolts if only to see if it works and you save the cost of a new gasket I suppose.
Jr. Member
Posts: 41
Re: strange over heating problem?
Reply #19 on:
January 26, 2011, 02:46:26 pm »
Hi Guy's
I think you maybe right.. new bolts were used.. when the head was repaired..
I may try and get then tightened but would that work or help
seems to me more money has to be spent again..
don't really know what to do now..
Sr. Member
Posts: 119
Re: strange over heating problem?
Reply #20 on:
January 26, 2011, 04:10:28 pm »
Not easy to say. On my 2.2 DCI G9T engine, they say you have to remove the engine to do any work on the head, so in my case if it happened, I'd just get a new gasket and new head bolts fitted as most of the labour cost is not related to unbolting the head, but getting the engine in and out of the car.
You won't be able to keep running like you are for very long until it does other damage to the engine and maybe warps the head too?
Jr. Member
Posts: 41
Re: strange over heating problem?
Reply #21 on:
January 26, 2011, 10:15:53 pm »
This is what I'm going to do..
I need to wait till the weekend and do some of the checks you guys have mentioned..will remove the thermostat and see if that has any affect. then I'll know which way to go... I'll not driving it till then...
I remember hearing someone say, you can tighten the head if you drop the engine to 1 side... not sure if that will help and do more damage..
many thanks for all the help to you all and I'll let you know after the weekend whats happening
best regards
Sr. Member
Posts: 119
Re: strange over heating problem?
Reply #22 on:
January 28, 2011, 01:16:44 am »
I really do wish you the best of luck with your issue and hope you can fix it without having to get a new gasket fiited. If GrahamT is right, even removing the thermostat will only delay the inevitable pressurisation of the system. I would take the stat out (and check it using a pan of boiling water just to see) and then leave the car running on the path and see if, or how long it takes for the hoses to go hard. If the gasket is leaking, while it may take longer, you will still see the same pressurisation of the system. Taking off the tank cap to see any bubbles is also a good way of checking. If you see any or smell anything like exhaist has then its a safe bet the gasket has failed.
I am sure there is a way to re-tighten the bolts without rmoving the engine. I am going to my Renault delaer tomorrow, so I will ask and any info I get, I will pass on. Roy4matra may as an ex renault RTE may actually know if this is possible??
YaBB God
Posts: 1022
Re: strange over heating problem?
Reply #23 on:
January 28, 2011, 05:25:00 pm »
Quote from: ESPACED on January 23, 2011, 03:40:34 pm
Hi guys
Back to the drawing board...
This morning even before I turned the engine over i took the cap of the expansion tank and the pressure threw the water out
Does anyone have any ideas why this is happening..
I'm sorry to say but this sounds like you have a head gasket blown at best, or a crack at worst. To retain sufficient pressure over night to blow out coolant there must have been a lot of pressure in the system and that is not just the normal 1-2 bar created by the system being sealed and the coolant being heated. The expanded hoses that you mentioned earlier also point to the over-pressure caused by the engine pressurising the cooling system, and the final proof is the heater blowing cold - as the engine blows gases into the coolant, this goes initially to the highest point in the system which are the matricies. The fact that the heater is often cold right from the start is that the engine gases are already there from the previous run, so they don't get the warm coolant to work correctly.
Although you have had a gasket done a couple of years back, you may have caused it to blow again by getting it too hot (you said you switched it off when it reached the red but that is too late - the top of an engine gets even hotter just after switching off as the heat rises) or it may be that originally it wasn't a gasket but the start of a crack, and since then it has been slowly getting worse.
This does not sound like a problem with the thermostat at all, particularly since you have now fitted two new ones, and I would not waste time with that at this time. A compression check should be the first test, and the engine should be hot (which is when the gasket or crack opens up) or possibly a block coolant test - this is a fluid that changes colour in the presence of engine gases in the coolant.
Tightening down the head bolts will not do anything even assuming you can get at them all, and if you do have a crack then that is another reason why tightening the head bolts would be a waste of time. To remove the head on these engine means removing the engine, and that really means having a ramp since you have to lift the chassis away from the engine. The garages have an engine dolly, and once all the bolts, electrics connections, pipes etc. are off or apart, the engine sits on this whilst the mountings are undone, and then the chassis is lifted up, leaving the engine on the dolly. To do this at home with normal DIY tools is not really a sensible proposition.
Last Edit: January 28, 2011, 05:32:09 pm by roy4matra
Jr. Member
Posts: 41
Re: strange over heating problem?
Reply #24 on:
January 28, 2011, 11:29:28 pm »
Hi Roy..
I know your Right!!!!
I needed a few days to let it sink into my head as i didn't really want to believe it..
i think my days as an espace owner may be over as I only liked this shape and really don't like the newer shape at all..
The kids cried yesterday when I told them we may have to change her..
I have done a lot of work on this car and could do it again by replacing the head gasket but.. as everyone has told me it may happen again and I'm not going to take that chance.. as I have already spent a small fortune.. (to embarrass to say a figure)
New pistons
New piston rings
New shims
Head pressure test and skimmed
New water pump
New radiator
2 new heater matrixs
New glow plugs
New battery
New valves
New exhaust
New tension rods
And the list goes on..
As I can remember everything..
Although if may be a 1998 it didnt matter to me as it severed it purpose and did the job well but now.. well all that has changed..
Id like to thank you all for the help in this post and in posts of past in my times of trouble
Best regards
Sr. Member
Posts: 418
Re: strange over heating problem?
Reply #25 on:
January 29, 2011, 12:44:15 am »
I fully understand your point of view
If it was mine -and considering all that is replaced on it recently -i would put it at rest for a few days and perhaps consider to give it one last chance with new head gasket -to make the kids happy
If i remember correct you did the work on this one yourself -so you know it quite well -its quite a few hours of work for sure, but still its not costly other than new gasket and new bolts and some blood sweat and tears
long forgotten once its done.
Well, i wish you luck no matter what you decide
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Sr. Member
Posts: 119
Re: strange over heating problem?
Reply #26 on:
February 02, 2011, 10:46:44 pm »
One thing to add here. I have been reading in detail some info in the vault about replacing head bolts and head gasket and there is a comment on one of the technical notes that says, before putting new bolts in, you should obtain a syringe long enough to reach the bottom of the holes where the bolts go and suck out any oil you find, so as to make sure the bolts actually tighten properly - which is interesting and maybe not something any non renualt trained garage or mechanic would know, but it still could cause the bolts to appear properly tightened when in fact due to a kind hydraulic locking when the bolts are under pressure, that they wouldn't be if there was any oil there.
Worth knowing if you do decide to go ahead with a new gaslet.
jack daniels
Sr. Member
Posts: 132
Re: strange over heating problem?
Reply #27 on:
February 03, 2011, 12:23:58 pm »
that is a good point Colin.
I dont know if that detail is in the average workshop manual, but one should allways check in a stud hole one way or another before puting the stud in. I use a least a vernier caliper to measure the depth, and take a look with a light, if that's possible. I measure the stud length before putting it in and again after its in to keep control over where they are. If you have another bolt to hand with the same thread but cut to a smaller dia you can even just run that in by hand to check that the thread is deep enough and not just the hole itself. There could be swarf, loctite, or fluid in there. The thread could even be damaged. An air pistol is ok but abrasive crap could come flying out, so its a good idea to at least cover the pistol and the hole with a rag. If there is lubricant in there, it could easily cause hydraulic lock for sure.
Espace, Grand (magnifique, formidable, grandiose, considérable, noble, ample) III
2002 JE02 F4R DP0 2.0L 16v auto
Jr. Member
Posts: 41
Re: strange over heating problem?
Reply #28 on:
February 04, 2011, 10:27:05 pm »
Hi Guys
All this was done..
My espace had 7 previous owners, when I bought her and she was not drivable... it was only the head that had blown.. so they told me...
When opening the engine, it was like open a can of worms.. Piston were damages valves were bent and scorched
I did everything by the book.. and nearly changed every
£400 on the head alone just to get the old glow plugs drilled out, skimmed and pressure tested
And the list goes on....
I have never added all the bills up because I didnt really what to know, but pretty sure near to £2000 or even more was spent when you take everything into account.. and that does not include the £500.00 I paid for her..
Any way
On the 3rd yesterday she was sold as a part exchange...
Gone for peanuts.....
Sorry that a lie..
For less really...
No longer an espace owner..
I would like to thank every ones input on this Forum, because without you guys a lot of question would have not been answer..
Now I have a Ford Galaxy 2.0 diesel 2007....
Quite nice...... Ops sorry shouldnt have said that
Many thanks
Best regards
Have fun guys....
Sr. Member
Posts: 119
Re: strange over heating problem?
Reply #29 on:
February 04, 2011, 11:16:44 pm »
Thanks for the update. A step too far I guess, and who can blame you. The Galaxy is a nice car - I have driven afew. Good luck with it.
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Life after Life
Oh my, what happens when a novel's lead character dies on the fourth page? Alas, Dr. Fellowes never made it to Ursula's birth (at least not this time around)—he was busy treating a man trampled by a bull.
This novel made many "best book" of the year lists. On a cold winter's night in 1910, a baby girl was born to the Todd family, but alas poor Ursula was born blue. Then she is born again and the family cat, Queenie, smothers her (not necessarily on purpose.) She's born again and drowns while swimming in the sea with her older sister Pamela.
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For a decidedly different historical novel that captures the feel of Britain during and between the world wars, this book is a sure bet. And if you like novels that playfully explore time, also see Audrey Niffenegger's The Time Traveler's Wife.


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The city's health department would take a 10 percent hit to its budget under a new proposal under consideration.
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The health department stands to lost up to $5 million in grant funding under the current proposal.


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2 arrested, 1 sought in Marrero killing
Authorities seek Kevias Hicks
Authorities in Jefferson Parish announced on Friday that two of the three people wanted in connection with the killing of a man in Marrero have been arrested.
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Anyone with information is asked to call the JPSO Homicide Division at 504-364-5300 or Crimestoppers at 504-822-1111.
3 arrest warrants issued in connection with Marrero double shooting
Deadly double shooting in Marrero
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New bachelor of science degree in marine science to be offered at UH Hilo
UH Board of Regents also accepts $671,000 in gifts to the 'Imiloa Astronomy Center and approves appointments to the Mauna Kea Management BoardUniversity of Hawaiʻi
External Affairs & University Relations
Alyson Kakugawa-Leong, (808) 974-7642
University of Hawaii at Hilo
PEARL CITY, Oʻahu — At its monthly meeting held today at Leeward Community College, the Board of Regents (BOR) approved the provisional status for a bachelor of science degree in marine science at the University of Hawaiʻi at Hilo. The new degree, to be implemented in Fall 2008, will provide undergraduate students interested in pursuing graduate studies a more comprehensive background in the natural sciences than the existing bachelor of arts degree in marine science, including upper-level required courses in the focal areas of marine biology, marine ecology and oceanography.
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- A $21,000 commitment from Sybil Kyi, Kenneth Wong Jr. and Sharlyn Rayment to establish the ʻImiloa Astronomy Center Landscaping Fund at the University of Hawaiʻi Foundation, and in recognition, to name the ʻImiloa Canoe Garden the Betsy Nip Wong and Kenneth Aloiau Wong Canoe Garden in honor of their parents;
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Also approved were the appointments of John Cross and Lisa Hadway to the Mauna Kea Management Board. Their appointments are effective October 1, 2007, through August 31, 2011.
Cross is the land manager for the Edmund C. Olson Trust II, a land trust that oversees more than 13,000 acres in the Hilo, Puna and Kaʻu districts. He has more than 16 years of land management experience on the Big Island, including serving as president of Mauna Kea Agribusiness and vice president for real estate for C. Brewer & Company. Cross also owns and operates a 13-acre farm in Hakalau located on the slopes of Mauna Kea.
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text: Markada May and Damien Whiteman of Towaoc would like to announce the birth of their daughter Kayleah Serenity Whiteman. Kayleah was born on Jan. 8, 2014, at 11:55 a.m. at Southwest Memorial Hospital. She was 5 pounds, 2 ounces and 18 1/8 inches long. Kayleah's maternal grandmother is Marilyn Salt, and her paternal grandparents are Valerie Whyte and Darrin Whiteman. Other special family members are Emily Ute Whiteman and the late Darwin L. Whiteman Sr. Kayleah also has numerous aunties, uncles and cousins.


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über türkish speed3x wowumuzda yapılan kasti buglama olayını şiddetle kınıyoruz. artık yetti. her server boktan oldu. buglamalar kişiliksiz travian yönetim kadroları herserverde açılan 10000 lerce galya ve cermen hesapları, hergün gelen altın gümüş ham satış teklifleri vs durumu açacağım almanyaya telefon anlatacağım. Darauf können Sie mir glauben. ich meine das ist genug was ich meine für Sie. heute is sontag warte ich montag.
QuenyaCiao, ho problemi con la registrazione dell'account, mi dice che la mia email già è attiva, ma dato che non ricordo la pass non riesco ad accedere. Ovviamente ho provato più volte a farmi rimandare la pass per email, ma non è mai arrivato nulla
Hola , podrias ayudarme diciendome el Link del servidor CLX , no lo encuentro por ningun lado , muchas gracias
wesleybruno7has noticed a typo in the word "Nivel" in pt-br (level).
in place of "Nivel" appears "Nivelq" (in the list of pending constants, when I open the construction and in the title of the construction there is the word "Nivelq").
where should I report this type of "error"
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To Mr Ghost Residivis, the Super Moderator CO.ID
Hello, my name is Daterly, I'm an 25-years old, and an at the past 9 years I'm a member in the Israeli Tavian community.
Most of the time, I'm spend my time in the israely forum. As you can check, this forum has an extremely large history – before the community shifted to the new forum – the Travian: legends forum, we had over half a million messages and more then 1/4 million – without include the old archive.
If you look at this numbers, you could saw that even that our domain is relatively small comparing to the other countries, our forum is unique in it's size and history – believe my, this place is my home at the last 9 years, I remember this history.
I'm mention this history and size in order to point on a message – the Israeli community is quite different from other country's. we use our forum a lot – and therefore, we need excellent community manager, an excellent support people and great multi-hunters.
At the last 9 years I sow the game losing it's popularity and my beloved forum getting empty, yet – at the last several months I sow a difference – we had a new manager, Yarin, also known as Saturn, that recruit good people and make – somehow – the domain running again.
I don't know what is the reason you fired him and the rest of the crew. It doesn't really matter. Yarin was the best community manager I sow at the past nine years.
It will be smart to return him to his previous position as a community manager.
I would also point on another argument to support this nomination – Yarin was an old player, and many of the community members won't take his place from respect to him.
I know it's sounds like a small problem – you only need one person. And everyone is replaceable. but please, here in Israel all the players know each other. There are players meetings in the real life outside the game. It's a small country with powerful and coherent community. Finding a replacing person won't be easy, especially because you need a person who know the game and know the language – you cant relay on person from another country.
Yarin make the domain run again, he make old players, how retired long time ago – return to the game. He (and of course his crew) restore my beloved forum – he is the right person as a community manager.
I ask you to re-consider his dismissal.
Best regards
since I don't really know how is the right person to talk with him about this subject – I'm sending this letter to you. Please – If I'm wrong – address my the Email of the right person or the Forum-user of this person, or send this letter to the HR of Tavian company.
koq tampilan avatar akun saya ada error nya ya ...
status seperti pemula/pedagang/filsuf ngga muncul
terima kasih
hello :))))))


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Some people like to read about summery places during the winter. I am the opposite. It's not because I am a masochist— reading about places colder than where I live actually makes me feel like I don't have it so bad here in Minnesota where today it is 3°F (the low tomorrow predicted to be […]
Tag Archives: Kevin Patterson
Good Winter Reading
January 20, 2011 – 3:10 pm
By Kristine Leuze | Posted in Book Reviews | Also tagged A Place in the Woods book review, Adrian Hoover, books about cold climates, books about living up north, Consumption book review, good winter reads, Helen Hoover, Hudson Bay, Inuit, living in canada, minnesota living, The North Shore | Comments (2)


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A BILL to amend and reenact §30-4A-1, §30-4A-2, §30-4A-3, §30-4A-4, §30-4A-5, §30-4A-6, §30-4A-7, §30-4A-8, §30-4A-9, §30-4A-10, §30-4A-11, §30-4A-12, §30-4A-13, §30-4A-14, §30-4A-15, §30-4A-16 and §30-4A-17 of the Code of West Virginia, 1931, as amended; and that said code be amended by adding thereto a new section §30-4A-18 , all relating to the administration of anesthesia by dentists.
Presumption of Degree of Central Nervous System Depression.
§30-4A-6. Qualifications, Standards Applicable, and Continuing Education Requirements for Anesthesia Certificate or Permit.
(B) Holds valid and current documentation showing successful completion of a Health Care Provider BLS/CPR course; and
§30-4A-7. Authority of the West Virginia Board of Dental Examiners to review, inspect and reinspect dentists for issuance of permits.On-site inspection by West Virginia Board of Dental Examiners.
§30-4A-11. Effect on practicing dentists who are currently administering or supervising general anesthesia or parenteral conscious sedation.
On the effective date of this article and from that date forward, any dentist not previously administering or supervising Class 2, 3 or 4 anesthesia or techniques but wishing to do so, shall make application to the Board as prescribed herein. The Board and the Subcommittee shall then review the applicant's credentials and further will require an on-site evaluation of the dentist's facilities, equipment, techniques, and personnel prior to issuing a regular annual permit or certification. After the initial on-site inspection, the Board, at its discretion, will conduct further on-site evaluations.§30-4A-12. New applicants.
Upon the recommendation of the Subcommittee to the Board of Dental Examiners, the Board shall issue regular permits to applicable dentists. An anesthesia permit or certification must be renewed annually as described in section fifteen of this article.§30-4A-13. Issuance of regular annual permits.
§30-4A-14.Waiting period for reapplication or reinspection of facilities.
§30-4A-15. Application and Annual renewal of regular permits; fees.
§30-4A-16. Violations of article; penalties for practicing anesthesia without a permit.
§30-4A-17.Appointment of Subcommittee by the West Virginia Board of Dental Examiners; credentials review; and on-site inspections.


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One guy tried to set off a bomb in his shoe, and now millions of shoes have been taken off and put through X-ray machines as a result. A couple of guys had a hare-brained scheme to mix deadly chemicals in the plane's bathroom — which wouldn't even have worked, as I understand it — and now we have millions of little plastic bags with little travel-sized toiletries.
Some might admittedly view these new practices as over-reactions. Indeed, some might even mourn the fact that there is no foreseeable way out of these stupid practices, as no politician wants to be the one who loosens up the rules and then gets blamed for the next terrorist attack.
But I think we need to look at the bright side — this is an opportunity for the greatest performance-art piece in the history of the world. All we need is a truly dedicated artist to stage an attempted attack and a new bizarre practice can be imposed upon millions of travellers for years to come. (Perhaps we could brainstorm in comments.) This heroic artist would need to be selfless enough not only to risk jail time, but to be willing to forego claiming credit for the piece, as the confession that it was merely a prank might endanger the new practice's continuation (though who knows?). Only years later could the artist finally come forward and "sign" their massive work, which had played out for years on a stage the size of the entire nation, perhaps adding a note explaining that the project was meant as a commentary on our security-obsessed age, etc.
In a further twist, perhaps next time you're unlacing your shoes in order to put them through an X-ray machine along with hundreds of your fellow citizens, you should ask yourself, "Has this already happened? Was the shoe-bomber just a performance artist?"


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I hear a lot of funny things about other VCs. This one doesn't really do early stage, that one doesn't really get consumer. It usually stems from entrepreneurs who have been passed up on. Often times, I've literally just closed on an early stage opportunity with that VC--so I'm quite sure they go early.
Beware of the intel you get on VCs from other startups. They'll often gloss over their own miscues and blame the investor.
What I never hear is "I failed to demonstrate product's value proposition." No entrepreneur has ever said to me "I totally see why every VC I pitch thinks my market is too small."
In fact, rarely do I ever find that founders are taking anything to heart from the feedback they're getting from experienced investors. Very quickly they go from retweeting every last but of drool that an investor advises to "Yeah, VCs are morons and if they knew anything, they'd be founders."
If you're not adjusting your pitch as you go through fundraising, it's you that doesn't get it--not the VCs. If I keep asking questions about your market, don't answer with feature ideas. Tell me who will buy this product, why it makes sense for them at that price point and how many customers are out there like that.
VCs are often wrong, maybe even most of the time, but it's a slippery slope to dismiss everyone who says no as "wrong". It's much more productive--and instructive--to think of them as uninformed or unconvinced. This way, the burden falls upon the entrepreneur to get them over the hump.
A founder's job is to convey a clear value proposition and a clear strategy for creating enterprise value. If the people who you pitch don't get it, either you've failed to communicate or you haven't done enough homework to show convincing proof. Yes, a VC needs to take a leap, but we're not going to leap into anything where the founder hasn't even a clue about his or her competitor's revenues--or the five other companies doing the same thing.
It's super easy to drink your own Kool Aid without putting yourself in an investor's shoes. They may not know the market like you do, nor have they experienced the pain point like you have. How can you convince them with sound logic, relevant facts, and firsthand research?
Read more posts on This Is Going To Be Big »


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Friday, January 01, 2010
Polar Dash 10K
Ann Maser and I ran the Victory 10K 6 years ago. I can't believe that it has been that many years. Wow.
Today I ran the Polar Dash 10K. What a blast! I must say, this morning I asked Steve " why exactly am I driving an hour to run an hour, then driving back home for an hour ?" "Well, you haven't raced since Javelina 100 have you? You needed social interaction, you haven't run a road race since Twin Cities Marathon" Oh. I guess I had already asked him that question!
It was cold this morning. -6F in Big Lake. 5F at race start. The race didn't begin until 11AM! It gave me time to shower, clean house and run a few errands before race time.
I forgot about all of the people, parking, etc. Oh my gosh! I arrived near the race at 945-plenty of time! Well, not so. Parking lots were full and neighborhood streets were parking on one side only, narrow streets, homes very close together with driveway accesses onto the streets so you couldn't park along most of the street area. Boy, this sure doesn't happen at ultras..does it!
Finally I came across a church at Franklin Ave and River Road Terrace or something. Luckily there was one spot left! I added a few layers of clothing, changed out of my boots and into my shoes and was all set. I glanced at my Forerunner 50 and began jogging to the start. 1.4 miles I made it to the Shiners Hospital, race start. Lots of people!
Very nice start. Lots of room for everyone inside the facility plus a huge warming tent. Great organization, even pacing groups! I couldn't believe it. For a 10K?
It was even chip timed. I received my chip, an embroidered hat and gloves. Wow again. Nice stuff. Now had to jog back to my car to drop off my goodies! Out and back I went. At least I would now know the way back to the car after the race.
I lined up at the 9 minute mile group thinking I wanted to run in less than an hour. I tried not to think about tired legs and 45 miles of snowshoe running less than 24 hours prior.
The gun blared and off we went. For the most part the road was pretty clear of ice and snow and the course was plenty wide for all of the participants. There weren't too many spectators with the cold temperature! I ran along, each mile was marked with a mile marker on a huge feather-just like Twin Cities Marathon. Amazing. They spend some money to put together these Ortho races. They are really really nice.
Up hill, flatten out, up hill, when do we go downhill? I was breathing hard..well, gasping, and I wanted to go faster. How? I continued on just doing what I could.
Eventually I ran up to another pace group leader. He was leading the 852's I believe with a finish of 55. Well, I figured I'd hang here as long as I could. He began to talk about Trail Mix 50K and said that was his first ultra. I looked over and said that it was mine too, 6 years ago. We introduced ourselves and he recognized my name, my blog. He was talking and running effort sly. Me, not so much. As we made the turnaround I told him I couldn't really talk and run this pace at the same time. I told him I began ultras so I could slow down! At mile 4 I dropped back a bit, he turned around and said "Come on, famous ultrarunner, you aren't slowing down" Oh yeah, I'm slowing down.
I always kept him in my sights and wasn't too much farther behind. After mile 5 there was a huge hill. I decided to run it very slowly, not quite walking, but almost. Sheesh. Tired tired tired.
As I came into the finish I saw the clock turn to :57. My chip will show a bit less, not too much. Yippee! I made my goal of under an hour.
I walked past the finish line and saw that there were volunteers handing out medals. Medals! Medals at a 10K. I couldn't believe it. They are beautiful medals too. Huge, hanging on a lanyard with a clip. Ortho has put together 4 races and each race has a medal that will fit together into a holder, creating this big circle. Very cool. Makes me want to re look at the dates to see if I can run each race. Funny that a cool award would make me want to run the series. It does though.
What a fun race. I walked back toward the hospital, seeing Caribou Coffee, Cocoa, cookies, chips and bread on the way. Amazing.
I don't remember 10Ks being this organized and well done in the past. I'm looking forward to the next one!
I jogged back to my car, the lot almost empty. As I came up to my car a couple asked me to take their picture. They then offered to take mine. Why not?
Quickly starting my car I begin to strip off my wet clothing. I'm so glad I brought dry clothes along. Into dry clothes and heading on home. Smiling, happy that I decided to run this 10K! It really was nice to share the New Year with a big group of runners, doing what we love to do.
Happy New Year!
6 comments:
- Unknown said...
- This comment has been removed by the author.
- Unknown said...
Cool Blog!! Are you in Mpls? OOps! I see your in Big Lake. I did the same race this morning, kinda chilly huh? :) Wow, cool races at the bottom, I have never officially done any trail runs, I would love to try! Happy New year!
- Unknown said...
I ran the race too! It was my first 10K and really enjoyable despite my eyelashes freezing together.
- Julie B said...
Hey Mary and cjzihc; I'm glad you were at the race today and you both enjoyed it! It was a blast. Congrats cjzihc on the first 10K. That is so awesome. If you can run one this cold just wait until it gets nicer outside :) Yes, Mary, you'll have to try a trail run. You'll be shocked at how much fun they are! I had no idea they even existed a few years ago! I looked up the Victory 10K, oops, it was in 2001..wow, long time ago!
- chris mcpeake said...
great blog
good luck with your racing in the new year
- SteveQ said...
And I missed my first chance to beat you in a race this year - maybe the Securian Frozen 1/2-marathon???


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Son Of COICA: PROTECT IP Act Will Allow For Broad Censorship Powers, Even Granted To Copyright Holders
from the censorship deptAs expected, it appears that a new version of COICA is on its way, and it looks like those behind it have ramped up their efforts to make the positioning sound better. Rather than COICA, it's been renamed the "Preventing Real Online Threats to Economic Creativity and Theft of Intellectual Property Act" or the.... PROTECT IP Act (don't gag). And, rather than actually taking into account the concerns many had with COICA, this new bill is even more draconian, in that it has a private right of action. That is, beyond just letting the Justice Department declare that a site is "rogue" and then getting a court order that would require all sorts of third parties censor that site, this new law will also let rights holders take action. That is, unlike COICA, PROTECT IP has a "private right of action."
The Act similarly authorizes a rights holder who is the victim of the infringement to bring an action against the owner, registrant, or Internet site dedicated to infringement, whether domestic or foreign, and seek a court order against the domain name registrant, owner, or the domain name.To try to make this palatable, the bill says that the court's permission is needed to serve such an order (though, these kinds of things are frequently rubber stamped) and it will only apply to payment processors and ad networks, rather than ISPs and search engines. The DOJ version, however, can apply against ISPs, search engines, ad providers and payment processors.
Oh, and if you noticed that "search engines" included in there and wondered, yes, that's different from COICA as well. Beyond just requiring these other service providers from blocking service, this new law will require search engines to censor sites out of their index.
The bill claims it includes "safeguards," but those "safeguards" are that after the court order has been issued and all the third party service providers (payment process, ad networks, ISPs, search engines) have been required to block service to the site, the site can "petition the court to suspend or vacate the order." That seems a bit late in the process, doesn't it?
Since we've seen many of the "seized" domains simply move to new sites, the PROTECT IP Act also says that any site that just moves to a new domain, the same draconian censorship requirements apply to those new sites as well. On top of that, it pressures online service providers to voluntarily censor, saying that such services are "immunized from damages" for taking action against a site they believe is "dedicated to infringing activities."
Oh, one area where the law backs down is that it no longer focuses on seizing domains. That is, it no longer talks about requiring registrars and registers to be subject to this law. But the reason they've done so is because they say that Homeland Security's successful domain seizing means that such powers would be redundant...
Once again, what we have here is a terrible bill that provides for broad censorship power not just to the government, but potentially to private companies as well, against sites which they accuse of being dedicated to infringement.
Filed Under: censorship, coica, copyright, free speech, protect ip, rogue sites


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A land consolidation project helped restore the functionality of vineyard terraces and thus maintained a landscape which is a habitat of rare species.
Projects & Practice
A modern hen farm producing eggs for human consumption, set up a new unit to process non commercial eggs and therefore increase its competitiveness.
Amstelland Natuurzuivel is a cooperative of farmers in the Amstelland region who set up a milk factory to produce regional dairy products for the Amsterdam area.
An agricultural business used RDP support to improve its capacity to process and store its produce, while producing renewable energy from the sun.
A pilot project to create an innovative pig farm based on the principle of processing fresh manure to minimise GHG emissions and increase the farm's profitability.
RDP support enabled a home-based business that sells quality vegetarian food products to increase its production capacity and reach out to an international market.
Modernization of a poultry farm by installing new, laying hen equipment and by renovating the production buildings.
A leading manufacturer of conserves and jams used RDP support to increase its winter water storage capacity for use during the summer dry months.
An investment project to modernise a buffalo dairy farm through the introduction of new processes and equipment.
A company that produces ice-cider in northern Sweden, combined RDP support and crowdfunding to plant an apple orchard that would support its production needs.


text: Never stop to check your heart rate again. With the AquaPulse™ Heart Rate Monitor your current heart rate is verbally announced while you swim. Simply slip the AquaPulse™ inside your goggle strap, attach the soft rubber clip to your earlobe, and go swim. Using an infrared sensor to monitor capillary blood flow, your heart beat is detected through your earlobe. The heart rate is then audibly communicated to you in real time, where the information is transmitted directly to your inner ear via Bone Conduction Technology. No ear buds, cumbersome chest straps, or watch devices are needed.The heart rate announcements are made regularly in 10-second, 20-second, 30-second, 45-second, 1-minute, 2-minute or 5-minute increments. Push the "Instant Heart Rate" button to hear your last recorded reading again. Complete with a lithium-ion rechargeable battery, you can use the AquaPulse™ from five to eight hours depending on the interval setting. Simply plug the integrated USB directly into a USB port on your computer to recharge.Features and Benefits


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Another American upstart is coming to the stately halls of Downton.
Paul Giamatti has been cast to appear in the season 4 of "Downton Abbey," announced Carnival Films, ITV and Masterpiece on PBS in a statement Monday.
"We're excited that Paul Giamatti will be joining us on 'Downton' to play Cora's brother Harold, the rather free-spirited uncle to Mary and Edith, " executive producer Gareth Neame said in the statement. "We can't wait to see him work alongside Shirley MacLaine, who are both sure to upset the Grantham's apple cart in this year's finale."
U.S. & World
The day's top national and international news.
MacLaine had a guest starring role in last year's third outing of the hit drama as Cora's straight-talking American mother.
Giamatti, an Emmy and Golden Globe award-winning actor will next be seen in "The Amazing Spider-Man 2" and has featured in television series and movies as diverse as "Cosmopolis," "Rock of Ages," "John Adams," "Planet of the Apes" and "Sideways."
"Downton Abbey" returns on Jan. 5, 2014, on PBS.


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12am HISTORICAL CYCLES
Richard welcomes a writer, adventurer, martial artist, and a street youth counselor to discuss the history of cycles, whether we are doomed to repeat the past, why the government appears to be preparing for civil unrest, and how we can prepare for the next ten year cycle.
Guest: Stefan Verstappen is a writer, world traveler, artist, martial arts expert, and street youth counselor. He has lived and traveled throughout China and East Asia. While in Asia he studied oriental art, culture, and Kung Fu. Verstappen is a master of the Lohan School of martial arts and one of the few westerners to have lived and studied Kung Fu in China. Stefan is a member of the Canadian Society in China and also worked as Chairperson for the City of Vaughan, International Economic Development Committee, in charge of facilitating the 'Twin Cities' partnerships with cities in Japan and China.
He is the author of several books, including, The Art of Urban Survival. His article, Historical Cycles, Are we doomed to repeat the past? What to expect and how to prepare for the next ten years, will be published in the fall edition of The Trends Journal.
12:35am OTTAWA SHOOTING ODDITIES
welcomes an independent researcher to discuss some of the odd
circumsntances surrounding the recent shooting spree on Parliament Hill.
GUEST: George Freund is the host of the popular alternative news podcast, The Conspiracy-Cafe. George is a longtime researcher investigating conspiracies, history and intelligence agencies.
The file seems to repeat sections for some reason. However, the material of the other guest is top notch. You can just skip along to bypass them. Sorry about that. Our webmaster has got the file in the media player now. Bless you John.


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East Los Angeles College was established in 1945 and was first located on the Garfield High School campus. In 1948, the college moved to its present 82 acre site on Avenida Cesar Chavez in Monterey Park, a suburb located six miles from the Los Angeles Civic Center. ELAC is one of the nine public community colleges within the Los Angeles Community College District. The main campus and a satellite center located in South Gate serve the communities of Alhambra, Bell, Bell Gardens, City of Commerce, Cudahy, East Los Angeles, Huntington Park, Los Angeles, Maywood, Montebello, Monterey Park, Rosemead, San Gabriel, South Gate and Vernon.
Visit Our Campus


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One thing I've had some trouble accepting is how the severity of injuries is determined nowadays. More and more it seems players get seriously hurt and then go in for a scan of some kind to determine just how hurt they are. Seems simple enough, but I find there to be a disconnect. The player can be writhing in pain on the ground for 20 minutes, unable to help himself off the field/court, tears streaming down his face, maybe some bleeding for effect, and when the player is interviewed he reveals he's never been in so much pain in his life and labels it a "near-death experience".
Then…the scan results come back and nothing is torn/broken/sprained/strained, so he's fine, should be able to play in the next game.
Nowhere in this process, it seems, is there a determination from the player's point of view that the injury simply causes too much pain for him to play. As long as the computer image reveals no serious issue, it is determined for him that he's fine. And, what's worse is that with the media, the results of such scans are made public immediately it seems putting tons of pressure on the player to convince himself that he's fine. Maybe it has evolved this way due to technological advances that can very accurately assess injuries. But I still find it interesting that the player's take on the whole thing doesn't even come up anymore.


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Academic Services for Student Athletes is a support component housed within the Student Learning Center. We provide a comprehensive range of academic advising, personal support and eligibility oversight for student athletes at Appalachian. Our professional staff works closely with the individual students, teams and coaches of all established varsity sports programs at our University.
Appalachian values academic excellence as well as athletic achievements and insists that individuals are students first and athletes second. Academic Services for Student Athletes helps students prioritize academics by providing this comprehensive support system throughout the student athlete's college career. These services, offered to all our intercollegiate student athletes include:
- Orientation
- Academic Advising
- Career and personal counseling
- Free tutoring
- NCAA eligibility information
- Priority registration
- Athletic study hall
- Progress reports
For more information, contact Stacy Sears, Director, Academic Services for Student Athletes, at email@example.com or 828-262-6889.


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Carl's Jr.®
Carl's Jr. and Hardee's Raise More Than $650,000 to Fight Breast Cancer
Jul 25, 2007
'Pink Star' Restaurant Donation Program, Held in May at Both Brands, Raised Breast Cancer Awareness - and Funds - Across the Country
CARPINTERIA, Calif. – July 25, 2007 – Carl's Jr.® and Hardee's® restaurants across the United States raised more than $650,000 in May during a three-week, in-store fundraiser benefiting breast cancer awareness. The "Pink Star" campaign allowed guests to visit their local Carl's Jr. or Hardee's restaurant and donate monies to the National Breast Cancer Foundation (NBCF).
For each $1 donation, restaurant guests received a personalized commemorative pink Happy Star™ cutout to place on a restaurant lobby display. Happy Star is an icon for both the Carl's Jr. and Hardee's restaurant chains, and pink represents breast cancer awareness. Guests who made donations also received a coupon to redeem a free beverage on a future visit. Carl's Jr. and Hardee's supplier Imaging Technologies of Atlanta, Ga. also donated the cost of all printed materials related to the Pink Star program as a show of support as the program expanded nationwide.
"We are proud to support the National Breast Cancer Foundation and humbled by the generosity of our guests who helped raised more than $650,000 for this very worthy cause," said Andrew F. Puzder, president and chief executive officer. "Each dollar donated, and each Happy Star added to our walls, showed those women and families affected by breast cancer how much we care, and how proud we are to support awareness on their behalf."
The "Pink Star" program was executed in May for the third year at Carl's Jr. It was initiated in 2005 by the Carl's Jr. franchise body, the Star Franchise Association, and expanded to a system wide Carl's Jr. promotion with company- operated restaurant support in 2006. In 2007, it expanded again to include nearly 3,000 Carl's Jr. and Hardee's franchise and company-operated restaurants across the country offering guests the chance to donate in support of breast cancer awareness through educational outreach, and mammograms for underinsured women.
The 2006 Pink Star program, supported by the Carl's Jr. Star Franchise Association and Carl's Jr. company-operated restaurants, raised more than $260,000 for the NBCF, whose mission is to save lives by increasing awareness of breast cancer through education and providing mammograms to those in need. This year, Hardee's franchise and company-operated restaurants added their store presence behind the event.
"Support from CKE Restaurants, Inc. and their Carl's Jr. and Hardee's restaurant locations means so much to the National Breast Cancer Foundation and the women whose lives will be saved as a result of their involvement," said NBCF president Janelle Hail. "With their ever-increasing support, we are able to expand our outreach to educate women about the importance of early detection and to provide free mammography programs for women who cannot afford them. We thank CKE, Carl's Jr., and Hardee's for their valiant efforts to save women's lives."
"We are so pleased to see the seeds planted during the 2005 season at our Carl's Jr. franchise restaurants yield this wonderful result in 2007," said Dan Gjurgevich, Star Franchise Association president. "The evolution of this program from our Carl's Jr. franchise association to a nationwide program at the Carl's Jr. and Hardee's restaurants in the U.S. is such a testament to the strength of the company and really shows how much the franchise community is valued."
According to the NBCF, more than 211,000 American women will be diagnosed with breast cancer this year – and 43,300 will die. One woman in eight either has or will develop breast cancer in her lifetime. In addition, 1,600 men will be diagnosed with breast cancer this year, and 400 will die. If detected early, the five-year survival rate exceeds 95 percent. Mammograms are among the best early-detection methods, yet 13 million U.S. women 40 years of age or older have never had a mammogram. For more information about the NBCF or to donate directly, visit http://www.nationalbreastcancer.org.
As of the first fiscal quarter ended May 21, 2007, CKE Restaurants, Inc., through its subsidiaries, had a total of 3,022 franchised or company-operated restaurants in 43 states and in 13 countries, including 1,101 Carl's Jr. restaurants, 1,905 Hardee's restaurants.


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Kari and Maggie: 40 Pigs Rescued from Slaughterhouse Truck Safe at Farm Sanctuary
One hundred and sixty-seven pigs were the winners in a dramatic showdown between the animal rights movement and the pork industry just outside of Washington, D.C..
The pigs were being transported from a factory farm in North Carolina (the country's largest pork production state) to a Pennsylvania slaughterhouse. En route, the driver parked the triple-decker trailer on a Washington, D.C. street — and then abandoned the trailer leaving the animals in the hot sun without water or basic care. Fortunately, local residents notified the police and the Washington Humane Society was contacted. The trailer, was seized by the agency, and shortly after midnight, was towed to the Poplar Spring Animal Sanctuary, located in rural Maryland, one hour from D.C.
Throughout the night, animal activists worked tirelessly to remove the frightened pigs from the trailer. Most of the pigs were too frightened to move and many of the pigs had trouble walking and were trembling uncontrollably. The unloading process took several hours and a ramp had to be built to remove the pigs from the third level of the truck. The animals were terrified when they got off the trucks, and most walked on their knees and were dehydrated and weak. They each licked the dirt, something they had never seen, and made their way into their temporary pasture.
The following day, agents from Hanor Company, a North Carolina pork corporation, and their legal counsel arrived at Poplar Spring with local police to retrieve the animals. Upon arrival, Hanor's representatives were asked to provide a cash payment in excess of $10,000 to cover the costs associated with caring for the animals. In lieu of making this payment, Hanor agreed to sign the pigs over to Poplar Spring Animal Sanctuary. The sanctuary and pigs' interests were represented by Laura Nelson, an attorney from the Animal Legal Defense Fund.
Authorities decided not to bring criminal charges against the Hanor Company for abandoning the pigs. The largest "penalty," however, was already assessed when the Hanor Company lost the "market value" of the pigs, estimated at approximately $14,000.
The surviving pigs are now living out their natural lives at sanctuaries. Farm Sanctuary took in 40 of these magnificent animals. When the pigs arrived, they were approximately six to eight months old, and those who remain have been with us here at Farm Sanctuary for over seven years now. Due to problems with lameness, a retirement pig area was built for anyone having trouble getting around.
Although the pigs were terrified when they arrived, they love human attention now, and will lay on their sides when people approach in hopes of getting a belly rub.


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|Absolute proof that GOD EXIST (Pretty Cool)
Member #7,536
July 2006
Part 1
The first 5 minutes are pretty laughable to start. The presenter is pretty much fucking himself by saying you must prove God exists before you can have faith in it. Not only is that notion preposterous, but since you can't actually prove God exists[1] this line of reasoning essentially would leave Christianity with no other conclusion than that God doesn't exist. That will likely be enough to split the religious community apart: on one side the semi-rationale thinkers that understand that you can't, and practically don't need to, prove God's existence to have faith; and on the other side the irrational thinkers too hasty to get one over on the non-believers to even stop and think if this man, saying things that already agree with them, is actually making any logical arguments or proving his points (hint: he's not). There may be more sides than two, but those are probably the most interesting ones anyway.
On a side note, he doesn't even seem to comprehend what the word "faith" means. He qualifies it as "absolute confidence". The rationale thinking population seem to understand it to be, "belief without evidence" (quite contrary to everything he's preaching). To be fair, the dictionary does cite several generic and potentially contradictory definitions, albeit I'd argue that they're so generic as to be useless. Apparently the word dates back to around the 1200s and derived from words meaning "belief" or "trust" (approximately).
Interestingly, Wikipedia notes that, «the word translated as "faith" in the New Testament is the Greek word πίστις which can also be translated "belief" or "trust"». It's just another reminder that when reading and attempting to make some sense of the Bible one must remember that the English text (or whatever other language, except for the native ancient Hebrew and Greek) that they're reading have already been approximated by countless interpreters over the centuries and that the languages do not necessarily mesh up 1:1 (I've never even seen an example of modern day languages that do in their entirety).
(I'm attempting to document what the presenter is asserting so when it's not obvious I'm probably restating what he has, not making a claim for myself... Try not to hold me to claims made here unless it's clear that I'm steering away from what the presenter has stated...)
A little bit of logic and a basic secondary (high) school understanding (which is basically all that I have) of science is all that anybody needs to debunk this (and the Web can fill in anything that you lack if you care to try). Notably, that's significantly less understanding of these ideas than the actual scientists in our society have. Arguing science against the scientific community without science is absurdly comical. Nothing in this video proves that God doesn't exist either, but it certainly does not prove that he does. Essentially we're left right where we left off with the last debate (unfortunately!). We don't know for sure one way or the other. Though I'd argue that reading the Bible will leave any open minded, rational thinker with a clear conclusion regarding that deity.
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Member #3,163
January 2003
The youtube vid clearly uses logical deduction to prov that the there has to be a creator what you call the creator is erelivent. But to deny a creator is unlogical.
Member #12,293
October 2010
If bambam's summary is more or less accurate (thank you bambam), all of these "proofs" boil down to variants of the old teleological argument. Nothing new under the sun.
If all the "proofs" are basically applications of the same argument, the video can't be any good.
What I've liked best and what imho comes closer to a formal "proof" is the "ontological argument".
It is a conceptual truth (or, so to speak, true by definition) that God is a being than which none greater can be imagined (that is, the greatest possible being that can be imagined).
While it's obviously flawed, I think it is an achievement in terms of structuring your thoughts - for someone living in the 11th century that is.
Member #3,163
January 2003
His summary is not accurate at all. The bottom line of the vid is that there has to be a creator. It has nothing to do with God as known in the Bible. You can call the creator what ever you want but according to logic a creator has to exist.
Member #12,293
October 2010
piccolo said:
The bottom line of the vid is that there has to be a creator. It has nothing to do with God as known in the Bible.
Well, that's what I thought.
You can call the creator what ever you want but according to logic a creator has to exist.
Logic is a means of connecting propositions (and validating those connections). Unless it's pure formal stuff, such a statement does not make much sense in a general way without showing some actual "content".
Edit: Well, whatever. ^^
Member #1,666
April 2001
I can get behind the idea of the universe having been created by something. However, if I speculate about that something, I would probably think it might have been another universe that created this one.
Sort of like how a flower grows, fertilizes, seeds, etc, and presto we have more flowers, maybe there is a process by which universes are born from other universes as well. The universes are probably all different in one way or another, but all very similar, kind of like everything else.
I dunno. Maybe it's jibbers crabts.
Regardless, most religions have fictional interpretations of the creator, which is more of an illustration. Giving the creator properties like gender and intelligence, and humanizing the creator, is perfectly fine but it doesn't seem very in touch with any sort of scientific reality of the situation. The claims of virgin births and all that are not something I give any credit.
You don't need to believe in any sort of details about a creator for any purpose. You can, but it's not necessary part of anything and is solely a personal experience, and it is something that you can only share with like minded people... which again is fine.
"He who controls the stuffing controls the Universe"
Bruce Pascoe
Member #15,931
April 2015
Member #2,229
April 2002
piccolo, you're wasting your time buddy. This is all you'll get from these clowns...
Member #3,163
January 2003
Its hard to believe people can think without logic.
Bruce Pascoe
Member #15,931
April 2015
Not that I expect to convince anyone one way or the other, but I'll just say this is relevant:
I'll see my way out now. I don't want to be anywhere near this blast furnace when it all goes to hell.
Member #2,229
April 2002
piccolo: Here are some good bible verses for you. Ones I pay close attention to these days. Answering questions is fine, but endless arguing with people who are not interested in learning from you, will only tear you apart spiritually. (took me a while to learn the same lessons) Anyhow, check these out... they contain good advice.
Matthew 7:6 (NIV)
2 Timothy 2:14 (NIV)
2 Timothy 2:23 (NIV)
Romans 1:20-22 (NIV)
Member #7,536
July 2006
U mad, bro?
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Member #2,229
April 2002
bamccaig said:
U mad, bro?
At what? Sorry, but I am beyond that. I am actually more concerned about you, because while you may think this is a joke now. There is coming a day when it will get very serious for you. And you will see God in person, and you will know that He is quite real, and that your existence is coming to a violent end. So I feel sorry for you, and hope that someday you change before it is too late.
But I simply will no longer debate when it gets nowhere. It is pointless, and we have done this in the past to no effect.
I know God exists, I have proven it to myself beyond doubt. It's a fact, and the only person I need to prove it to is myself. And I did that a long time ago.
My main reason to post anything in here at all is to give my fellow believers advice to abstain from endless arguments like these. Don't let the wolves tear you apart (spiritually). But leave the conversation and maybe pray for them as we are commanded.
Gideon Weems
Member #3,925
October 2003
someone972 said:
Could this become one of the great A.cc 100 page flame wars of old?
grabs popcorn
Make mine caramel!
I want a good, clean fight. No punches below the belt and no pokes to the
Member #7,536
July 2006
Sorry, Neil, that wasn't addressed at you, but at the video presenter and presumably the "CEO" of that "church" (and the OP for posting this thread). While we have each others' attention I'll refer you to the rules for a discussion (I think we both know you don't agree to those terms).
It's pretty comical how you post in a thread that you claim to not want to participate in, and then respond to a post not addressed to you as if you were personally called out (to be fair, it came right after your post, but that was the only indication that it might have been addressed to you). It honestly looks like you're begging for attention. Just chill. If you don't want to participate then it's easy. Close the thread. You can even hide threads, IIRC (worst case you could with CSS, but I digress). I think we both know that you actually want to be here and will continue to post in this thread. Even if you reply that it's your last post in this thread! I avoid engaging you because I already know that you're incapable of, or at least refuse to, have a rationale discussion on the subject. If this changes let me know.
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Aaron Bolyard
Member #7,537
July 2006
It's really sad reading this thread.
I do my best to sift through information to come to a sound conclusion. This also means I don't actively form opinions on things I have no knowledge of (nor the ability to research or understand--e.g., I'll delegate the validity of much more difficult sciences to those who are experts in their fields, but won't espouse an opinion or such)...
But then you have self-proclaimed atheists, who are right (or so I believe--I'm an atheist, as well), but come to this conclusion incorrectly. If you claim to be an atheist based on rational thinking and logic, but then have incredibly irrational and illogical and unsupported beliefs in other fields of your life--well, you're doing something wrong. You've come to the "right" conclusion using the wrong methods. It's like arriving to the right answer in some math/logic problem, but you made glaring mistakes on the way there that manifest themselves in other problems...
And that's a very big problem. It's incredibly hypocritical. You can't claim superiority (as in "I am right and you are wrong") because you're wrong, too.
(The same goes on elsewhere with beliefs/groups I identify with, including pseudo-liberals/pseudo-progressives that would claim otherwise. You're not progressive when you have a trunk full of regressive views/ideas. An extreme example would be the incredibly tiny group of extreme feminists cited in an earlier thread, but I'd group many members here in the same group, albeit to a lesser extent...)
At the end of the day, I grow tired of the rampant irrational beliefs (be it family and friends or internet-goers or random people I meet for brief moments in life) so firmly held by others. It seems human thought is some shaky, unstable structure...
And it's really upsetting because I have to apply a strict sense of proper "truth finding" (I can't think of a word that fits--essentially, verifying thoughts/beliefs/experiences are accurate/truthful using critical thinking, logic, and [sometimes] research) to any partially consequential thought/belief/experience I have, and it's getting harder and harder to know if I'm simply too late and should simply not bother or if I'm making any sense of progress. Otherwise I would act on these painful, exhausting and dissonant thoughts/beliefs I have due to exterior issues and that would not be a pleasant experience for me or those around me, leading to involuntary commitment, jail, or death.
In brief (or tl;dr, if you will), I suppose what I'm trying to say is that discussions like this remind me of how so many people take an otherwise unimpaired understanding of the world for granted, while I struggle to discern the truth from the sickness. E.g., I can rationally conclude there's really not horrible eldritch abominations manipulating this world and my life, but it doesn't stop me from believing and making changes in my life as a result... It's incredibly frustrating, for me at least.
Member #2,229
April 2002
Member #3,861
September 2003
I'm astonished that so many of you believe in god. Make my arse roll around my chair while still being able to type.
These things as gods, creatures that no one have ever see but that are extremely well explained in text, angels, heaven, hell. They only exists in human mind, because they are human made things for humans to believe in.
And it's a pretty poor and sad story. Real murder are made in so called name of whatever god.
If you look through the ages, humans have always believed in one or another or all gods. How can you think yours is better than the ones already made before ? How outrageous !
And yeah, let me tell you one more thing: isn't it a proof that all is in the 2000 years old book, and that the earth, the fossils, the space are way way way older ?
God or whatever will never make a miracle for you. You're the only one allowed to grant your own life miracles. I'm sorry, that's rude, but no one is gonna help you. Just fall in real disgrace one time and you'll see your friends fade away like smoke.
If someone that strong as a god still exist and doesn't make a move to kick Donald Trumps fat arse, it's really that there isn't a god.
And man, hiding yourself behind bible quotes is just funny, but that's all. A book isn't the truth because it's a fucking book.
Of course you're not going to convince me that your religion more than another one, or your god more than the others are existing. And if ever I'm wrong, I'm going to give the fucking gods a buttkicking party for eternity for doing nothing while being everything (or so I understood the garbage in the books).
And please, stop loop reading ONE pesky book. There are tons of others to change your mind. Don't be afraid, come to the light.
"Code is like shit - it only smells if it is not yours"
Member #2,229
April 2002
One of my favourite passages, very comforting.
I'm just proving my arguing days are long behind me. I would rather joke around in these forums or talk programming then get upset over beliefs.
Johan Halmén
Member #1,550
September 2001
GullRaDriel said:
I'm astonished that so many of you believe in god. Make my arse roll around my chair while still being able to type.
These things as gods, creatures that no one have ever see but that are extremely well explained in text, angels, heaven, hell. They only exists in human mind, because they are human made things for humans to believe in.
I'm astonished that so many people talk about things that happened 14 American billion years ago, when the holy books that are meant to tell us something about being a human are written a few thousand years ago. Both "Christians|Moslems|Jews|Atheists|Potrzebists" escape to discuss irrelevant things when stating their view point.
Years of thorough research have revealed that what people find beautiful about the Mandelbrot set is not the set itself, but all the rest.
Member #3,861
September 2003
I ack what Johan said.8-)
"Code is like shit - it only smells if it is not yours"
Member #2,229
April 2002
Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
Why.... why is this a thread?
Bruce Perry
Member #270
April 2000
Neil Roy said:
There is coming a day when it will get very serious for you. And you will see God in person, and you will know that He is quite real, and that your existence is coming to a violent end.
What did I say in my very first post?
If God is good for you, fine. But what you are doing in this quote is psychological blackmail. For God's sake, SHUT UP
The reason I mention all this is that I think what you're doing could simply be learning from someone like the vicar above, and doing the same thing to other people, with the best of intentions and without realising what it actually is. If that's the case, please take my post as a friendly reality check, and I endeavour to take back any offence I may have caused. Provided you don't do it again of course
Member #2,229
April 2002
And for the record, I do not attend churches either, can't stand them.... which brings to mind another image I created a while back...


text:
Kellah shared a dormitory in Gryffindor Tower with Hermione Granger, Lavender Brown, Parvati Patil, Fay Dunbar, and another girl whom she stayed with for six years. In her third year, she chose Care of Magical Creatures as an elective subject, with Rubeus Hagrid as her professor. Kellah also visited Harry Potter in the Hospital Wing after he was attacked by the Dementors. She may have attended the Yule Ball, the funeral of Albus Dumbledore, and the Battle of Hogwarts.
Early life
Kellah was born in 1979 - 1980 in Great Britain or Ireland.
Hogwarts years
Early years
In 1991, Kellah began her magical studies at Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry and was Sorted into Gryffindor House, home to the brave and daring, during the Sorting ceremony. Along with the other Gryffindors, Kellah was led by Percy Weasley to the Gryffindor Common Room and through the Fat Lady's portrait. She shared a dormitory with Hermione Granger, Lavender Brown, Parvati Patil and Fay Dunbar. Her Head of House was Minerva McGonagall, the Professor of Transfiguration. During her second year, Kellah's friend Hermione Granger was petrified by the Basilisk that resided in the Chamber of Secrets which had been opened that year.
Third year
In 1993, Kellah did clap after Rubeus Hagrid was announced as Silvanus Kettleburn's successor as Care of Magical Creatures successor though very unenthused, unlike her fellow enthusiastic Gryffindors, implying she may have a dislike of him.
Professor Gilderoy Lockhart was unable to continue teaching Defence Against the Dark Arts after being hit by a Memory Charm and was replaced by Professor Remus Lupin. Kellah attended her first Defence Against the Dark Arts class when she presented a Boggart to the class. One by one, each student had to confront the Boggart, which would take the form of their greatest fear. Kellah's turned into either a rat, rattlesnake or a bloody eyeball.
This year, she chose Care of Magical Creatures as an elective subject and was present when Professor Rubeus Hagrid, Professor Silvanus Kettleburn's successor, presented a Hippogriff named Buckbeak to the class. Kellah also was around Harry Potter's bed in the hospital wing and presented his broken broomstick to him with Ron Weasley. Kellah appeared to be close with Seamus Finnigan, opting to sit with him during lessons and meal times as opposed to her friends Lavender Brown and Parvati Patil.
Fourth year
Kellah's fourth year at Hogwarts in the 1994–1995 school year was playing host to the Triwizard Tournament and the students of Beauxbatons Academy of Magic and Durmstrang Institute. The tournament this year had an age limit set to it as a safety measure, this meant that Kellah was not even able to put her name down as a possible champion. However Kellah's classmate, Harry Potter, was an under-age champion. Throughout the course of the year Kellah would have watched in the stalls the various tasks of the tournament, she also would have attended the Yule Ball. At the end of the year Cedric Diggory was murdered and it was said that Lord Voldemort had returned.
Fifth year
In her fifth year of education, Hogwarts had been put under the eyes of the Ministry of Magic with Dolores Umbridge inspecting the school and teaching non-practical Defence Against the Dark Arts. With Lord Voldemort believed to be back in power, Hermione Granger feared that Umbridge was not preparing students for battle as the Second Wizarding War was on the horizon and started an organisation called Dumbledore's Army, where students could be taught practical means of magic in preparation. Kellah did not join this organisation as it is known exactly who did.
Sixth year
In 1996, Fay Dunbar, one of Kellah's dorm-mates, was asked by Harry Potter if she had a hairdryer for Arthur Weasley. Fay said that she did not have one and Hermione Granger implied that Kellah owned one, although Harry did not ask her.[4] At the end of this year headmaster Albus Dumbledore was killed by Kellah's previous Potions Professor Severus Snape. Kellah is likely to have attended the funeral service as many other students did.
Physical appearance
She was a black girl with black/brown hair worn in braids. She wore a single stud earring on each ear.
Behind the scenes
- Kellah appears only in the film adaptation of Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban. Portrayed by Kandice Morris, this character is listed in the film's credits as simply "Girl 1," but on the actress' casting agency profile, her name is given.
- Kellah is mistakenly listed as Lavender Brown in an article in the August 3, 2007 issue of Entertainment Weekly.
- Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban (film) (First appearance)
- Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince (video game) (Mentioned only)
Notes and references
- ↑ 1.0 1.1 Kellah's age can be extrapolated from her presence during the third-year Care of Magical Creatures class in the Prisoner of Azkaban film.
- ↑ Kellah owned a Muggle hairdryer. This may indicate she either was from an at least partial Muggle family or was interested in Muggles.
- ↑ Kandice Morris's profile from the Young Persons Theatre Group Casting Agency
- ↑ Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince (video game)


text:
THE SPORTS DOCTOR- Favre fallout: BoSox tell Ramirez who's boss
As I predicted, Brett Favre's miscalculations have effectively ruined sports for big name athletes. By wedging himself under Green Bay's thumb, he has paved the way for professional teams to take their superstars to the woodshed.
Not a moment too soon. Few mega-athletes are as amiable or work as hard as Favre. For one Favre, there are scores of drama queens who need a firm hand.
Case in point: Manny Ramirez. He's a real liability, even for the usually charm-free Red Sox. Rarely have I seen a city as rabidly devoted to a team as Boston is to its Sox. and they don't seem anxious to keep Manny around.
Manny's bi-annual requests for a trade are a tradition, but somehow he seems more determined– more serious, if "serious" can ever be used to accurately describe Manny Ramirez– to make it happen.
Even though he does refer to himself in the third person, Manny was the MVP of the first World Series they won in 86 years. Surely Boston owes him and owes him big.
Poor Manny. He obviously thinks it's still 2006, when a troublemaker and crybaby like Terrell Owens could make a stink all over Philadelphia and still bring the Cowboys crawling to his door. Alas, it's 2008, and thanks to Brett Favre, super-athletes no longer hold all the cards.
I find it ridiculous Manny hasn't been fired for disappearing into the outfield wall during a game and wearing MP3-playing sunglasses, but that's just Manny's being Manny, right? Boston certainly thinks so. Manny is so valuable that the Red Sox forgave his claims that he wanted to play for the Yankees.
They even forgave him for claiming to be too sick to play against the Yankees and flat-out refusing to pinch-hit against Philadelphia.
There isn't enough room to list all of Manny's sins against the Red Sox, but suffice to say Boston must have the most Christian attitude in sports.
Or they used to.
The Red Sox may be turning their plowshare into a sword, at least in regard to Mr. Ramirez.
Granted, Manny wasn't suspended for reportedly throwing Red Sox traveling secretary Jack McCormick to the ground earlier this season. He did have to say he was sorry, though. I'm still waiting to hear if Manny apologizes to Kevin Youkilis for slapping him on the air.
While Boston may turn a blind eye to Manny's physical expressions of dissatisfaction, his repeated refusals to suit up have team management pounding that plowshare.
See, Manny told the Red Sox he wouldn't play against the Yankees last Friday. He just looked at the lineup card and said no, claiming a bum knee.
I reckon it didn't heal when he sat out that game in Seattle last Wednesday.
Manny's refusal to play on Friday night was the straw that broke the camel's back, for them and for management and Manny. The threat of suspension did prompt Manny to suit up on Saturday, but he wasn't finished trying to have his way, as anyone who watched the game could attest.
Uh, why would Ramirez, who's been hitting .487 during an 11-game hitting streak, come up 0-4 on Saturday?
I could guess, but it would be easier for Manny to just tell me.
"If the Red Sox are a better team without Manny Ramirez, they should trade me; I will not object," he said in a telephone interview with ESPNdeportes.com on Sunday.
If slapping his first baseman and knocking down management doesn't get Manny what he wants, maybe throwing a few games will.
My guess is it won't. After many years, the Red Sox have wrung out that permissive washrag in favor of a little discipline and control. I'm sure it's Green Bay's lead that gave Boston the confidence to tell Manny Ramirez who's boss.
It ain't him anymore.
7 comments
If you are going to be dumb you gotta be tough.
If you are going to be dumb you gotta be tough.
Manny Ramirez, what a putz...low class...no class.
the hook is insulting brett favre? What the he** is the Hook?
Any GM who assumes the liability of this guy after this season ought to be locked up in a padded room. This phoney is no superstar - he bacame a so-called superstar because that is whazt the Boston sports writers made him out to be - now they have to live with the embarrassment of their creation - he is a super "arse" and a disgrace to baseball.
Manny looks like a thug and acts like a thug - he needs to take the millions he has made back to his native country and live out his life in any manner he desires.
It is long past time that professional team owners and GM's quit paying these clowns outlandish money just for the sake of winning. They need to put some integrity back into "America's pastime" or they certainly will lose the fans.
Lol, now that's one heck of a turn in a comedic direction. How petty and jealous do you have to be to come up with a whopper of a twist like that?
You're ridiculous. What do the Packers have to do - shoot Brett Favre in the head on live TV before some of you get the picture here? ALL Favre ever did was change his mind about playing. ALL the rest of this insanity - EVERY BIT OF IT, is on the Packers. They're acting like a bunch of tweaked up escapees from the stupidest reality show you've ever seen, and STILL the sports "media" is covering for them. What the heck!?!
And they say Favre is waffling?!?
Thompson - "We will welcome Brett back if he reinstates in some sort of different role".
Thompson - pleads with Brett to stay away from camp for a couple days, the proceeds to get nothing done.
Favre stays away for two days then sends in his reinstatement papers.
McCarthy - "Brett is still a very good football player and will be welcomed back in our locker room"
2 hours later - Murphy is on a plane to Hattiesburg begging Favre not to show.
It's starting to seem like some sort of farcical old time, silent western, with all the overacting and amateurish script. Will someone please explain to me why the Packers are going through all this absurd nonsense to keep the best quarterback they've ever had, who's at the top of his game, from coming back and helping their team make another serious run for the Superbowl?
This is not a difficult decision. Favre, perhaps the greatest to ever play the game who gave you 16 yrs without missing a single game, or some guy whose name no one could even remember if not for this crazy spectical who's thrown exactly one touchdown and one interception in the NFL. Aaron who?
And you know, I'm really glad Favre filed his reinstatement papers and pushed them. If the Packers GM Thompson is going to shaft BRETT FAVRE at the top of his game (over some personal BS apparently), he's going TO HAVE TO DO IT IN THE LIGHT OF DAY IN FRONT OF THE WORLD! I'm SICK TO DEATH of all this whimpy "he said" "he said" behind the scenes bullcrap and spin, with the Packers trying to look like the victim in this. Let them DO IT! HISTORY WILL REMEMBER WHAT THE DO NOW!
I don't see any insults to Favre here. As a matter of fact, the Sports Doctor praises him. It's just that his actions have contributed to a shift in power.
As far as insults go, Manny certainly classifies as an insult to baseball. He's too big for his britches and that's no lie.


text:
A $125,000 grant from the George I. Alden Trust in Worcester, Mass., will allow St. Bonaventure University to develop a biopsychology program and enhance the computer science curriculum, providing undergraduate students with the opportunity to study the connections between brain, mind and behavior.
In this two-part initiative, the Department of Computer Science will purchase a PeopleBot robot, which is designed specifically to interact with people and will be used for undergraduate research and for public outreach activities. In the second phase, the Department of Psychology will create and equip a biopsychology laboratory that will be used for newly created courses in biopsychology and undergraduate research projects.
Combined, the two projects will reach all psychology and computer science majors as well as a significant portion of students majoring in the other sciences at St. Bonaventure.
Dr. Robert Harlan, head of St. Bonaventure's Undergraduate Robotics Laboratory and co-author of the grant, said the PeopleBot robot will enable him to combine two lines of his research — his work in artificial intelligence involving the design of planning systems that can understand commands in English and carry them out in a simulated world, and his work in robotics involving developing software that will enable a robot to function in the real world.
Harlan said much of the coding for programs controlling the robot's behavior, planning and reasoning will be developed by computer science undergraduates.
"It will provide them with a platform for developing real-time, mission-critical software," he said, adding that students in other disciplines will be able to design and conduct experiments on how humans interact with the robot.
Harlan also noted that the PeopleBot will enable Dr. Anne Foerst, a theologian and member of the Department of Computer Science, to continue her experimentation with human-robot interaction begun at the Artificial Intelligence Laboratory at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
Foerst, co-author of the grant and an internationally known expert on human-robot interaction, is the author of "God in the Machine," a book that examines what robots can teach us about being human. The second part of the initiative will be conducted by Dr. Darryl Mayeaux, assistant professor of psychology and co-author of the grant, who will develop and subsequently offer the biopsychology lab class.
"Together, the two projects build a base for understanding the concept we call 'mind,' how it emerges from physiology, and what features of an interactive entity — biological or non-biological — lure us to attribute 'mind' to that entity," said Mayeaux. Each level of biological organization and each emergent phenomenon is amenable to scientific study, he said.
According to Mayeaux, the biopsychology lab will offer students in introductory-level courses the opportunity to explore the biological foundations of behavior through lecture and lab classes, each of which will be organized around testing meaningful competing hypotheses.
In upper-division laboratory courses, including collaborative research with undergraduates, the project will offer more opportunities to work with animal models of learning processes and of disorders such as depression and obsessive-compulsive disorder, he said.
"There are many scientific questions whose answers await discovery," said Mayeaux, adding that learning by pushing back, in small steps, the borders of scientific information is "exciting, sometimes frustrating, but always unforgettable."
A previous grant from the Alden Trust in December 2003 supported the purchase of a High Performance Liquid Chromatograph (HPLC) and a Gas Chromatograph/Mass Spectrometer (GC/MS), which are key pieces of scientific equipment used in the undergraduate science programs.
"St. Bonaventure has a strong commitment to a vibrant liberal arts education firmly grounded in the sciences," said Stephen Stahl, Ph.D., dean of the School of Arts and Sciences. "The Alden Trust grant will contribute significantly to a research-robust curriculum where our students will become research collaborators from the very first day on campus and will, over their four years, mature into competent, independent researchers before they head off to graduate school, industry, or secondary classrooms."
Stahl noted that the Alden Trust grant is a significant step in helping the University to complete the current Kresge Foundation challenge. St. Bonaventure must raise $2,659,880 for construction/renovation of its science facilities — for equipment, and for science-related scholarships and endowment — by Oct. 1 in order to receive a Kresge Foundation challenge award of $850,000.
With the Alden grant, the remaining amount the University must raise in order to meet the challenge award is about $160,000, he said.
Application forms, procedures and additional information
There are many ways to experience
St. Bonaventure for yourself
Learn more about the programs that interest you


text:
Effective Diffusivity in Porous Materials
Application ID: 978
Transport through porous structures is usually treated using simplified homogeneous models with effective transport properties. This is in most cases a necessity, since the typical dimensions of the pores and particles making up the porous structure are several orders of magnitude smaller than the size of the domain that is to be modeled.
This model introduces the concept of effective diffusivity in porous media by comparing the transport through an artificial porous structure described in a detailed model with a simplified homogeneous porous media approach using effective transport properties.
The model consists of two parts. In the first part, we create the model with a detailed geometry. In the second part, we define a homogeneous model for porous media using an effective diffusivity calculated using the detailed model from the first part.
This model example illustrates applications of this type that would nominally be built using the following products:
however, additional products may be required to completely define and model it. Furthermore, this example may also be defined and modeled using components from the following product combinations:
The combination of COMSOL® products required to model your application depends on several factors and may include boundary conditions, material properties, physics interfaces, and part libraries. Particular functionality may be common to several products. To determine the right combination of products for your modeling needs, review the Specification Chart and make use of a free evaluation license. The COMSOL Sales and Support teams are available for answering any questions you may have regarding this.