text:
Lindsey Vonn skis during a training run on Nov. 27, 2012 in Lake Louise, Canada
Lindsey Vonn is feeling better and has returned to Europe to train. Meanwhile, it's less likely Bode Miller will race this season.
Vonn started training for a return to the World Cup circuit after a midseason break to recover from an intestinal illness.
Rainer Salzgeber, the racing director of Vonn's equipment supplier Head, told The Associated Press that the four-time overall winner arrived in Austria on Wednesday and began light training on Thursday. He said Vonn plans to race in the downhill and super-G on Jan. 12-13 in St. Anton, Austria.
Miller still hasn't started training, working his way back after left knee surgery at the end of last season. Salzgeber said Miller was still expected back in Europe at the end of the month, but likely won't race this season.
"I don't know what he expects, but I don't expect it," Salzgeber said.
Vonn has not competed since falling in the opening run of a giant slalom Dec. 16 in Courchevel, France. After that event, the American announced she was going home to recover from an intestinal illness that landed her in the hospital in November.
Vonn is training in Hinterreit, the Austrian resort where she crashed badly in training two seasons ago and sustained a concussion. This week, ski technician Heinz Haemmerle joined her at the resort.
"Heinz said she did a lot of free skiing today, and did some (giant slalom)," Salzgeber said. "The plan has always been for her to come back at St. Anton."
U.S. women's head coach Alex Hoedlmoser wouldn't confirm Vonn's return in St. Anton.
"We all want her to come back and she obviously wants to race but it will depend on how well things are going during training the next couple of days," he said. "The first downhill training is (next) Thursday, so there is no hurry. We still have some time left."
A return at the Austria events would mean Vonn will miss a total of six races, leaving little chance of defending her overall title. She has dropped from fourth to sixth in the standings, trailing leader Tina Maze of Slovenia by 725 points.
After St. Anton, the women have a slalom in Flachau, Austria, followed by more speed races next weekend in Cortina d'Ampezzo, Italy. It remains unclear if Vonn will enter every event the rest of the season.
"That depends on how it goes," Salzgeber said.
However, returning in St. Anton -- on a course Vonn has won on before -- gives her plenty of time to get back into top form for the season's highlight, the world championships Feb. 5-17 in Schladming, Austria. A year before the Sochi Olympics, Vonn will be looking to regain the downhill and super-G world titles that Austria's Elisabeth Goergl took from her in 2011 when Vonn was slowed by the concussion.
Last November, Vonn stayed two nights in a hospital in Vail, Colo., after suffering from severe intestinal pain. She returned to the circuit and won three consecutive races in Lake Louise, Alberta.
Vonn also won a super-G on Dec. 8 in St. Moritz, Switzerland, but struggled in her last three races. She had an uncharacteristic fall in downhill, her best event, in Val d'Isere, France.
With 57 career wins, Vonn needs just five more to match all-time leader Annemarie Moser-Proell of Austria.

subset: commoncrawl


text:
This month has turned out to be all I had hoped for after my January letdown. My bookcase is plastered with the valentines I received from friends and family. I didn't get any sent out. Other things called for my attention.
As I've mentioned, I have been trying to clear clutter and make my space more user friendly. It's been ongoing since I moved into my house. I have a lot of stuff for creative endeavors.
On Valentines Day I received a special gift. My blogging friend, Alys from Gardening Nirvana came to visit. It was our first meeting and I was looking forward to it as she is dear to my heart. Alys is an advocate for kindness, animals, and an uncluttered life. She has another blog that she rarely posts on entitled Organized at Heart. It's how she makes her living.
I spent many days cleaning and clearing before she arrived as you would guess. There is more company coming next week. I couldn't think of where to take her to show her around the Portland, Oregon area. So we just let it happen. We had a simple dinner of homemade lentil soup and veggies, The next morning we went to Bob's Red Mill for breakfast. She buys their products but had no idea of what we would find there. Who knew it would be a huge birthday party for Bob's 89th birthday with a band for entertainment. We even got a slice of birthday cake and a free cup of oatmeal to take home.
After breakfast we needed to walk a bit so I took Alys to Fabric Depot. It's an acre of fabric and notions where you can find anything you can possibly imagine. She did find something that had to come home with her. I left it all there. I shop at home now. The party continued through the afternoon. Back at my house, I had to sit and rest my poor sore foot and Alys started to move like someone had set fire to her. She was everywhere at once. Asking how I felt as we proceeded. She immediately honed into the areas that were causing me the most grief and visualized an immediate solution. I was awestruck!
Shelves were emptied and moved and other shelves were emptied and moved and then everything went back together looking like a department store had set up a beautiful display but she didn't do what I was so afraid an organizer would do. She didn't suggest I throw things away. I looked at things with different eyes and a lot more left to the thrift store. We found things my daughter wanted to keep with her.
The next day, we had a light breakfast to fortify us for a trek through Powell's City of Books, occupying an entire city block and housing approximately one million books. We only spent and hour and a half but managed to find things we couldn't live without.
My sister had to drive us there as it's out of my safe range. Then we went to have lunch at a nice and noisy restaurant friends of my sister own. We waddled out but stopped at Salt and Straw for our evening dessert to go. My sister drove us by the Rose and Japanese gardens but it was too cold and wet to stop.
Getting back home, Alys once more became more energized and the next thing I knew three more rooms had their Chi fluffed big time. I hobbled along the best I could but Alys was moving like lightning making changes to make my life so much easier. It's like she read my mind and saw how I needed things to flow. I'm now able to do my sewing and crafts in a way that brings peace to my soul.
My daughter came the next morning and was overwhelmed by how well Alys had read my needs and provided them. My daughter has dubbed Alys her new Goddess Hero for making my life so much lighter. She was gleeful as we moved more things around. In Feng Shui, there is a phrase that if you want to change your life, move 27 things. I think big changes are coming now.
Would you be able to let an organizer help you?
From my heart to yours,
Marlene Herself


text:
ASPEN, Colo.—Colorado's snowpack has dropped to 72 percent of normal and time is running out to make up the difference.
The Natural Resources Conservation Service, a federal agency that tracks the levels, says the below-average snowpack is producing a bleak water-supply outlook for this year.
According to the Aspen Times ( http://tinyurl.com/a4cmwm5), current stream flow forecasts continue to point to well-below normal runoff in all the major river basins in Colorado.
At the beginning of this year, 30 of Colorado's 64 counties were designated as primary natural disaster areas due to severe drought and heat, making farmers and ranchers eligible for low-interest emergency loans from the Farm Service Agency.
Information from: The Aspen Times, http://www.aspentimes.com/


text:
Monday, August 29, 2011
Open thread on Episode #724
60 comments:
Just finished listening to it, very good episode. Mike was one of the best callers I've heard in a long time, typical old school crazy caller, every time you got him in a corner he made an excuse. I would have been happy if you had kept him on for the full episode.ReplyDelete
Well, if everyone would just stop driving then auto accidents would stop happening. Banning normal and healthy human behavior is impossible, and in any case we have solutions to avoid the worst of the consequences, so just saying "follow my imaginary friend's rules and the problems go away" just sounds stupid and thoughtless.ReplyDelete
Also, in what "context" is ripping fetuses out of pregnant women an acceptable action?
That was a wonderful ad hominem he made.ReplyDelete
Also, if we spayed/neutered everyone, that'd end the abortion issue as well, AND unlike the abstinence-only approach that he's advocating, this would actually be 100% effective, all without having to degrade our mental capacity to accomplish it.
Let's do that!
What's that you say about freedom? Oh. I forgot, we're not a totalitarian state where we can force draconian measures to solutions, so there's no point in suggesting it.
I also loved his rationalization that the reason that religious regions have worse abortion rates is because they aren't "true christians".ReplyDelete
.. so then it's not about following a set of rules, but rather being a "true christian"?
Talk about impossible goals... how about we sit down like adults and actually deal with reality on reality's terms?
I hear the phrase "out of context" so often in regards to Bible passages that I'm starting to think that believers just don't know what that phrase means. Like Joe said, what context is ripping fetuses out of pregnant women acceptable? It's like their pastors have instructed them "whenever someone quotes any verse of the Bible to you in an attempt to discredit it, just respond by saying 'out of context.' That will at least confuse them long enough for you to change the subject."ReplyDelete
I.J. You nailed what I was hoping the hosts would say, but I think they were too carried away by his nonsense- I wanted to hear what Mike would say if they asked "well what do you think we should do when people don't 'avoid fornication' and there is a pregnancy?" Just saying "it wouldn't happen if..." isn't realistic and is just a cop out to avoid dealing with the problem. If everyone followed the laws and didn't steal anything, we could cut our police force by a radical amount, should we go ahead and do that?ReplyDelete
I think they use "out of context" incorrectly, too. They mean something more along the lines of "in between the lines." In other words, he needs someone to come in and say "well, I see how it looks, but what he really meant was this." My parents would try to "put things into context" but saying "this was written 2000 years ago in a way people back then were able to comprehend." Which is obviously selling God's communication skills dreadfully short.ReplyDelete
"Which is obviously selling God's communication skills dreadfully short."ReplyDelete
I'm keeping that one!
And ultimately, it is all a cheat! The Bible says what it says, and yet we're supposed to understand a "context" that explains away the contradictions, the evil bits, the obvious nonsense, and the unscientific parts. Yet there's little in the way of objective guidance as to how we're supposed to figure out which bits are fact, which are parable, which rules are still in effect and which aren't, who we should or shouldn't stone to death. "Big Book of Multiple Choice" barely begins to cover it.ReplyDelete
And the best part is what h8uall pointed out, which is that claims of things being "out of context" are never followed by any explanation of what the passages are actually supposed to me, laid out in a rational and logical manner. It is just a way to duck having to deal with the fact that the Bible is a fairy tale written by a superstitious, bloodthirsty Bronze Age cult, and reflects the views and values of its authors.
It should be a rule of thumb that if an apologist brings up the "out of context" get-out-of-jail-free-card that they are asked to explain the context for which it makes sense/is good, and to not let them continue until they've done this.ReplyDelete
This was definitely one of the best shows. The hosts are always great, but the callers make the show, and this time they did not disappoint.ReplyDelete
Augh, that "abortion & HIV is down to fornication" argument: INFURIATING!ReplyDelete
According to this guy, the "christian" plan, as I understood it, is to only have sex with one person (of the opposite gender) AFTER saying some words in front of some people in nice clothes. And then bam! unwanted pregnancy isn't a problem, and neither are STDs!
I'msorrywhat? Is he unaware that even married couples don't want a baby *every time* they fuck? Most people are not quiverfull devotees, and most women would suffer severe health problems and/or death if they carried that many pregnancies, even with modern medicine. Many married couples choose abortion as a family planning option when/if their primary form of birth control fails.
I have to disagree, the way first caller was handled was painful. You guys bounced around from radioactive dating, genesis to the age of the world to quoting scripture and everything in between without addressing his point.ReplyDelete
I think the correct response would have been agreeing with him to a certain extent. If everyone practiced abstinence, the STD rate WOULD go down!
The response should have been A - How often does that pan out? And B - That doesn't lead to a happy marriage - look at the divorce rates!
Theists poke fun at us for 'worshiping science'. The way the caller was handled invites that criticism.
I had never heard of the Ica stones the caller mentioned and for anyone interested skepdic.com has a really good article about them...they are the usual psuedohistory drivel, but it's still pretty interestingReplyDelete
The show was great fun. But I think you let Mike slide at the beginning by not asking him why he believes the bible in the first place.ReplyDelete
A second quibble will probably sound like nit picking, but I think it would be best if you guys would not laugh out load at what callers say (unless they are trying to be funny of course). As absurd as some of the comments are, it sounds smarmy and unprofessional. I know their ideas are ridiculous, but no one will be convinced by snickering.
I know their ideas are ridiculous, but no one will be convinced by snickering.ReplyDelete
Fe fi fo fum, I smell the blood of an accomodationalist!
Being laughed at is effective on some people to wake them up.
(An in case it's not clear, I'm joking about the accomodationalist part)
After watching this week's show I have to admit I think the first caller wasn't answered properly. He asserted that if we all followed (his) god's plan there would be no more abortions, but instead of giving an answer you argued back-and-forth over other dubious aspects of the bible which, although important, weren't pertinent to the question.ReplyDelete
A better answer would be to point out how a Christian-based birth control plan will ultimately fail because it doesn't take into account the behavior of the human animal, known more colloquially as "human nature." By separating man from animal, Christianity ignores the evolutionary behavior in all of us, including the need to procreate, along with many others.
People will have sex whether or not they're married or indeed even ready to assume the responsibilities of child rearing, and just saying "Don't do it because God says so" isn't enough to stop that urge. As Don's statistics showed, even the most pious and devout Christian society can't overcome our evolutionary tendencies, and putting a Christian birth control plan in place leaves transgressors without anywhere to go to get help.
A secular birth control plan says, "Here are the rational, logical reasons why you shouldn't have sex before you're ready to accept the responsibilities of child birth, but if you want to do it anyway, use some form of contraception." It also says, "If you didn't use contraception and find yourself with an unwanted pregnancy, here are the choices in front of you to deal with it." A Christian birth control plan ignores this and will therefore always fail.
Were you there? *pounds head*ReplyDelete
Moses wasn't there, either. The Bible is true because it says it's true.
"It keeps changing." Uhhhh yeah, that's how science is SUPPOSED to work! How would it change my day-to-day life if evidence came about that changed the date of the origins of the universe, Earth, or human race? Not one little bit. but... if you believe that all of the Bible is correct (despite being full of errors), then changing a "fact" is devastating.
This is why China is beating the crap out of us economically. They aren't fettered by this nonsense.
@John: Come on John; Listen to it again and properly this time. They did say that and he responded to it by tossing out the no true scotsman fallacy.ReplyDelete
@Petr: I'll have to watch again. Maybe it just got lost among the other comments. And to be fair, I was watching it at work, so maybe I was a little distracted.ReplyDelete
If everyone would just stop overeating, there would be no obesity problem! After all, anyone who overeats isn't following the "don't overeat diet plan". It's 100% effective! I just the solved obesity problem!ReplyDelete
Oh wait, a lot of people won't do that due to human nature, so my plan is unrealistic. Rats.
"Doc, it hurts every time I do this."ReplyDelete
"Then don't do that!"
Hey, I have an idea...instead of evryone on Earth being horny and miserable, let's go with what works and promote safe health practices. Pretty simple if you ask me.
I know you probably didn't have the statistics in front of you (and neither do I), but he seemed to think that married women don't have abortions. He said this over and over, and it was never addressed. I think the figure is around 16% nationally in the U.S.ReplyDelete
Two things; the earth is 4.5 billion years old, or thereabouts. The quote about the Precambrian rabbits is JBS Haldane.ReplyDelete
Well, if everyone would just stop driving then auto accidents would stop happening.ReplyDelete
Great minds, Joe. That is exactly my go-to rebuttal whenever anyone starts an "abstinence is the only safe sex" line of reasoning. I'm hereby advocating abstinence-only drivers-ed programs.
It's like their pastors have instructed them "whenever someone quotes any verse of the Bible to you in an attempt to discredit it, just respond by saying 'out of context.'
Are you, by any chance, a fan of NonStampCollector, h8?
Of course Mike the caller was talking about disease from sexual content. Why did God give us other diseases like smallpox? What commandment were we breaking when people were dying of that? And did the Christians complain about getting rid of smallpox because then people would (fill in the blank). What commandment are people breaking when they get malaria? Did God command that everyone sleep with netting over them?ReplyDelete
And did the Christians complain about getting rid of smallpox because then people would (fill in the blank).ReplyDelete
Some did, yes. See "A Sermon Against The Dangerous And Sinful Practice Of Inoculation," delivered by Rev. Edmund Massey, July 8, 1722, re: smallpox vaccination.
In a nutshell, vaccination denies YHWH the ability to smite us with infections whenever he so desires. Almighty, indeed.
About the Ica stones that one caller mentioned. Basically, in some prehispanic grave sites in Peru, stones were found depicting dragons and giant snakes and all kinds of mythological creatures. Later, stones appeared depicting dinosaurs and ancient astronauts. These have all turned out to be fakes created by locals to sell to tourists.ReplyDelete
I also wasn't in love with the responses given to Mike (almost wrote Mark, whoops) but then, I wasn't the one sitting in front of the cameras having a live debate with the guy.ReplyDelete
Ideally, I think, I think it might've been interesting to rebut his whole "if we just did what God tells us, this wouldn't be a problem" with examples of biblical law being absolutely reprehensible.
...Oh, but they did try that, specifically bringing up the "So a woman should marry her rapist" thing, and he accused them of taking things out of context. I remember that verse; it wasn't an allegory, it was one of the numerous nonsensical laws and regulations, written as literally and factually as the specifications for how priests should dress. So I guess that might not have worked. Hurm.
Just wanted to point out an error when Mike from Detroit was speaking on the last episode of the show.ReplyDelete
Don and Russell both argued and stated at least three times the earth is 14 billion years old. Now the universe might be (give or take a bit) but the Earth isn't, the evidence tends to point nearer to 4.5 Billion years or so.
The first caller kept on saying that if everyone stopped "fornicating" before marriage then there would be no AIDS, abortion etc. Being that such a suggestion has no bearing in reality (try getting teenagers to not have sex with each other when their bodies are a hormonal tempest)we can simply counteract it with another ideal, and arguably more probable and practical, situation: if everybody used condoms outside of committed relationships, there would also be none of those social ills. Plus, everybody gets to be happy by having lots of sex and having a set of bedtime skills by the time they hook up with their life partner.ReplyDelete
Here's what gets me about the first caller:ReplyDelete
1. Someone mentioned it before, but yes, while he kept stating that basically "everything would be fixed if we followed God's laws" what he was actually stating was that "everything would be fixed if we were all true Christians." He finally had to admit this when cornered. Blatant shifting of the goal post.
2. He plays the oh-so-typical tact of saying "yeah I know that verse, yeah I know that argument, yeah I've heard that one before" but then just completely ignores the argument or point, says it doesn't matter, doesn't even begin to address it, and claims victory in his own mind. It's beyond frustrating.
I looks up the DinoStones.ReplyDelete
Thanks second caller guy, I needed a good laugh.
The problem with the Mike conversation is that I believe Russell and Don overestimate his intelligence.ReplyDelete
Of course he contradicts himself--at one point he insists that if everyone followed God's law, there'd be no need for abortion, but BY HIS OWN ADMISSION, all those Christians who fail to live up to those standards aren't true Christians, and he hand-waves it away by claiming the bible says "narrow is the gate."ReplyDelete
Dude, EVEN THE BIBLE says abstinence only doesn't work!
Here's a good rundown of the supposed "accurate depictions of dinosaurs." They ain't.
I don't care what the "Context" of a law is. The point is:ReplyDelete
There is NO context that makes forcing a rape victim to marry her rapist moral or justified.
I don't know how he backs track into "You have to look at the context, history, meaning".
Will people stop the "the victim is forced to marry the rapist" already? Please do some fact-checking. That's not what the passage says. It says the exact opposite: The rapist is forced to marry the victim. Just look it up. (Deut 22:28-29 if you didn't know.)ReplyDelete
Why is the rapist forced to marry the victim? The context is quite clear (even if you disagree with it): The man robbed her of her virginity, and nobody will want her as their wife anymore, so the rapist has to take care of her from that time forward. The form of the command implies that the victim can refuse if she wants.
You can justly argue that this law doesn't apply nowadays anymore, but that's a different issue. The question is about what the passage says, not if it's a good law nowadays.
Please concentrate on the *real* problems in the bible. Concentrating on straw men only gives good counter-arguments to the apologetics.
Does the victim have a choice? If not, its equivalent. If the rapist has no choice but to marry the victim, does that not mean that the victim has no choice but to marry the rapist? Typically, the women don't have a choice. In fact, that passage says (at least in my ESV) "..and she shall be his wife". It doesn't say "unless she doesn't want to". Sounds pretty forced to me.
.. which is part of the point. It's not a question of whether a context exists. It's question of whether the context makes it right.
The Bible could have promoted a set of morals where women weren't mere property, who have the ability to continue in life undiminished despite not being a virgin anymore. The Bible does the opposite and focuses way too much on virginity and ownership.
The context for that passage makes sense only in that it's repairing a screwed up context for which the Bible helped propagate. In this way, the "context" has failed to right the wrong.
I realize that society itself had that mentality, but if we're going to discuss whether the Bible itself has good moral rules, it should have tried to address the problems incurred for women, at least.
So the answer is, yes, the victim is forced to marry the rapist, and no, there is no context within the Bible for which it's made good.
The man robbed her of her virginity, and nobody will want her as their wife anymoreReplyDelete
If that were the case, Deut. 24:2 would be moot.
...nobody will want her as their wife anymore...ReplyDelete
So why didn't god do somthing about that instead? Why didn't god just say that rape doesn't count towards losing your virginity? After all, Mary was raped and she's still counted as a virgin.
that passage says (at least in my ESV) "..and she shall be his wife".ReplyDelete
26 English translations, none of which contain any provision allowing for the victim's refusal of compulsory marriage.
What I found funny about the call was that Don had just finished a presentation in which he made it clear that abstinence-only programs are ineffective. So the caller advocated 'avoiding fornication', as if somehow changing the wording magically makes it effective.ReplyDelete
Interesting presentation by Don. However, I think this presentation, as with the position of many atheists on the issue of abortion, ignores the fundamental issue of whether abortion is right or wrong. You presented info about abortion laws in Europe vs US, and positions on contraception and sex education, and debated passages from the bible. All interesting, but all dodge the basic question - is abortion simply removal of tissue or is it murder. I don't know the "right" answer, but I'd like to hear more rigorous debate on that question rather than liberal talking points or biblical nonsense. I offer some starting points to the discussion. The fetus is alive and it is the product of human sperm and egg. Is it, therefore, a living human and killing it is murder? Can we define a limit when the fetus assumes its humanity? Perhaps. I personally don't believe that one minute after conception it is a human being as it has no defining characteristics of a human - no brain, no heart, no nerves, no thoughts, etc. On the other end of pregnancy, one minute before full-term birth, it clearly is a human being. At some point in the process it transformed from "tissue" to human being. At what point, ethically, does the the right of the newly-minted human to live (the ultimate human right) surpass the mother's right to control what happens within and to her body (also a fundamental right)? I don't know the answers to these questions, but this is the crux of the debate. Stats about Europe and debates about biblical passages, while interesting, sidestep the fundamental issue.ReplyDelete
Don was not presenting a case for or against the morality of abortion. His point was: If we accept that abortion is something to be avoided, how best would that be accomplished?
Leaving out the woman's consent is a glaring omission. If the law is "kill anyone who works on the Sabbath", then a proviso like "unless they apologize" has to be explicit. Even if the extreme liberty is given that the woman's consent is needed, the poor wording precedent is very problematic in believing other biblical verses at face value.
This comment has been removed by the author.ReplyDelete
No kind of STD/AIDS problem would be solved if everyone were limited to one sexual partner. Some people have AIDS so even in a perfectly monogamous partnership, one person can obviously still contract AIDS if their partner has it. If they have children, the children my be born with AIDS which they will pass on to their perfectly monogamous lifetime partners. AIDS still spreads, just more slowly. I can't think of any way to reverse this other than a cure, preventing people with AIDS from having sex, or protection (gasp!).ReplyDelete
Unsurprisingly, the "no fornication" argument makes no sense.
While I somewhat agree with what the gist of what you are saying, a line needs drawn somewhere near where there is a consensus opinion. I don't know how the morality can be discussed with people who think that morality can only be derived from a super being who only speaks through vague and contradictory ancient literature.
I don't think it would be a legitimate "interpretation" to assume that the victim of rape had the choice of declining marriage. I don't doubt someone would claim this, but it ignores both what is written and the greater context of women's rights at the time. You claim a rapist being forced to marry is the exact opposite of the victim being forced. I disagree. there is no difference from the perspective of the victim. If a marriage is forced, it's forced on both, even if the intention was supposedly good. The road to hell and all. I understand the pedantry, and I agree we should be careful in explaining our objections. But no amount of reading between the lines makes this a good rule.
What I'm trying to say is that putting so much emphasis in this particular verse is not the best approach at debating the Bible's morality. The interpretation "the victim is forced to marry the rapist" is too easily dismissed because it's completely plausible to note that "what the law is actually saying is that the rapist must take responsibility for his actions: He 'soiled' the woman, who is now much less likely to find a husband, so now he has to take care of her. It's a question of responsibility. The right for the woman to refuse is implied by this. Nobody is forcing the woman to the marriage. It's a law aimed at the rapist, not at the woman."ReplyDelete
You can discuss the literal meaning of the verses all you want, and cling to the lack of explicit mention of the woman having a choice, but that's not very convincing to a believer at all.
In other words, this is not one of the best verses to attack when discussing the Bible's morality. It's not very convincing.
He 'soiled' the woman, who is now much less likely to find a husband, so now he has to take care of her.ReplyDelete
Which, again, is thanks for the morbid context that the Bible helps set up. If it had a commandment or other rule saying that women were people too and that they weren't worth less because they weren't virgins, then this "fix" wouldn't be necessary in the first place.
It's a question of responsibility. The right for the woman to refuse is implied by this.
How in the world do you figure that? I have no idea how you get from A to B.
Nobody is forcing the woman to the marriage. It's a law aimed at the rapist, not at the woman.
The entire context of the Bible is such that women are property. They're often given away by their fathers as bribes or gifts.
The Bible is forcing the rapist to marry her (and vice versa). What part of "the man who lay with her shall give to her father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife" implies any kind of choice whatsoever, on either side?
You can discuss the literal meaning of the verses all you want, and cling to the lack of explicit mention of the woman having a choice
Yes, how dare we think that just because there's no mention, or implication or any kind of hint of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles in the Bible, that it isn't somehow magically "implied" that they're in there.
It's very much a valid point to make, for those who are saying that the rules are "Good" to point out one that isn't. And yes, it can help some people out of their religion to point out atrocious verses that they hadn't considered. It happens all the time. It might not work for everyone, but you don't know who that'll be until you try.
JT, you are missing my point. Please read what I wrote again. All of it.ReplyDelete
(And btw, you are acting in a very dogmatic way. One would expect better from a rationally thinking skeptic.)
@ WarpReplyDelete
Upon deeper reflection of this, what sane woman would EVER consent to marrying her rapist? Given any other reasonable option, how can marriage be considered the default desire of a rape victim? What a grand lifetime commitment that will turn out to be.
As JT and I both point out, bible verses cannot be defended with additional unstated "implications". The version you are defending is vaguely defensible, but it is not what the bible verse says. "Shall" does not mean "if the woman is agreeable", and it is bizarre to think that she ever would be in any case. This is getting perilously close to the "out of context" excuse, used when you need the Bible to say something other than what it does.
"Say, your daughter is very beautiful!"
"Oh, thank you"
"Here is $50."
"Why did you . . . Hey! Where are you going!?"
"Don't worry, she can marry me afterwards if she wants to."
I get your point -
1) We've got the verse wrong
2) ..such that it's not useful to use
3) ...and there are better arguments.
I don't doubt the third point, but here's the thing.
1) You're wrong about getting the verse incorrect - as has been clearly explained to you by actual evidence, that has only been countered by baseless assertions about fantasy implications that you are apparently unable to explain.
2) You're wrong about not having any effect for the cause.
So you're missing my point - your point is invalid.
I'm curious why you think I'm being dogmatic. Sure, I'm discussing Christian dogma, but pointing out that you're making assertions that have zero manifestation in a chunk of text and clear contradict the overarching context isn't dogmatic any more than science is when refuting someone who makes an absurd statement that's not backed up by any evidence.
Skeptical conclusions are necessarily established with evidence, not because someone thinks that something is implied for no particular reason.
I wish he called when Matt was on. Matt who understands the bible better than Don or Russel would not have let him use the "out of context" copout and would have made him clarify the context. He would have destroyed the fundie.ReplyDelete
Hey guys, love the show, you do a great a job and I'm always impressed with everyone's handling of the live calls.ReplyDelete
I do feel that you let that dominionist piece of sh*t get away with the "if everyone followed god's law there would be no abortion" BS.
Let's grant him the first part and say that everyone is following god's law, no matter how unrealistic it is in practice, which according to what I could tell from him means:
1. No sex before marriage and 2. all sexual relations are for reproductive purposes only.
Even following those practies does not prevent ectopic pregnancy, extreme fetal abnormalities or other life threatening complications that arrive during pregnancy that threaten the life of the mother and leave the fetus dead in utero.
And with 10-25% of all pregnancies ending in spontaneous abortions a.k.a. miscarriages that makes god the biggest abortionist of all time.
So even under god's law abortion would still be a reality.
my band sings a song about abortion. it's called 10 seconds. Our website is www.freaksfromabraham.com it's the #1 best secular argument against abortion and beautifully worded. I will always be pro-choice but anti abortion. Martin, i hope you don't axe my post. Enjoy a nice song dude!ReplyDelete
Wow! Spam alert, guys.ReplyDelete
Gone now.ReplyDelete
There are laws that dictate the time limit a pregnant woman has in order to do an abortion (23 weeks from conception, IIRC), because if you go beyond that point, the fetus has a chance of survival outside of the womb. From week 24 and on, the woman cannot get an abortion unless her life would be in danger due to her pregnancy.
I think that the FIRST thing you should have said to the caller who claimed that we only need abortion because of extramarital sex should have been "say what?"ReplyDelete
Married couples also need to practice birth control, and married couples also need to use abortion to end pregnancies when they cannot support another child, or when there is a medical problem with the pregnancy. We can't all reproduce like the Duggars. There just isn't enough space and resources for everyone to have 20 kids.
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This show was postponed to next Tuesday, January 8, at 10:00 pm (Eastern Time).
Our guest, this evening at 10:00pm (Eastern Time), will be Allison Josephs, founder and director of Jew in the City. Who is Allison Josephs?
Allison has been involved in the field of Jewish Outreach for over a dozen years, teaching and lecturing, working at Partners in Torah, Sinai Retreats, and NCSY. She is, also, the spiritual mentor to actress Mayim Bialik. She was named one of NJOP's Top Ten Jewish Influencers in 2012 and has been quoted or written about in numerous publications, including The Wall Street Journal, The Daily Beast, Huffington Post, and Yahoo News.
Allison has been interviewed on television and radio, including programs such as "What Not To Wear," Associate Press TV, and NPR; her articles have appeared in numerous publications including the newly released anthology Like Water on a Rock, The Washington Times, The Jewish Press, and The Forward. She has also written many articles, directed and produced videos for Aish.com and lectures around the country and on WebYeshiva. She received her Bachelor in Arts from Columbia University in Philosophy and lives with her husband and four children minutes from the George Washington Bridge.
We will be talking about her recent video as well as future plans for her website and blog.
Meanwhile, in case you missed it, please listen to last week's fascinating discussion with abstract painter Igal Fedida about his life's journey towards becoming an Orthodox Jew and the connection between his art and Sefer Breshit.
Don't forget to tune us in this evening at Blogtalkradio.com/kosherscene for an interesting talk, with Allison Joseph of Jew in the City at 10:00pm (Eastern Time). We'll be wait'n for ya!
This show was postponed to next Tuesday, January 8, at 10:00 pm (Eastern Time).


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To be more specific, American payday loans in Renton, Washington. You can apply for it even from home or from the restaurant. Simply, fast and very comfortable — a perfect solution for every Renton resident who is in need right now. Let's take a look at them more closely.
First of all, let's make it clear to all of us what is a payday loan. This loan characterized by assets, which means you have to prove your capability of repayment in case if you don't have money by the date of the repayment.
These loans are popular because of their fast approval and easy qualifications. Your credit score is not important for most of the lenders. Renton payday loans offer you fast cash within a small amount of time. However, there is a list of aspects you should always remember.
These loans have a very high interest – about 300% per year. And this value is almost the same for all the Renton payday loans. All the agreements and percentage rates are transparent. You can decide whether you can manage these conditions, or it may lead you straight to the bigger financial problems.
Loans are not something new, and many of us have used them already. But what is much more convenient nowadays is that you can try for a loan using your computer without taking your body out of a comfortable chair. Usually, the whole procedure takes about 5 minutes. So it doesn't even matter where you are to apply for a loan. There are different types of short-time loans in Renton of Washington WA. One of them is payday loans Renton in Washington.
Today's world is characterized by money, the size for a paycheck that you get per month, per day, and so on. You have got to pay for every step you make; everything has its price. There are studying, medicine, multimedia, primal necessities, and of course, entertainment. So it's normal that you can trap into financial problems. Maybe you were fired, and new a salary date is later than previously. Maybe someone robbed your house, and now you need money to get your matters in order. payday loans in Renton are here to help you to give you an opportunity right now. It's hard to earn a certain sum in one day when you have to deal with the situation you have.
Family and friends. Unfortunately, not all of us have close people to ask for help. Even if you are the lucky one and you have an option to ask your friend to lend you some money, you would probably not want to do it. Many people consider it a shame.
Salary delay. Sometimes your employer can't pay you, and all you can do is just wait until it's over. Meanwhile, rent is got to be paid, meals should be bought, and all of your necessities should be satisfied. It is a very common situation for freelancers because their income is not the same all the time.
Bad credit. For some reason, there is a chance that you have a bad credit score, and it means you can't apply for a loan in banks. No matter how, but once your score dropped, very complicated to raise it. The approval chance is almost 100% if you meet all the requirements.
Loan type depends on what vehicle do you have:
Automobile or payday loans Renton in Washington are the most popular loans for sure. Almost every single person over 18 has his nowadays. All you need to apply for a loan is to fill out a special application form, which could be easily done through the internet. Take some pictures of your vehicle and use the payday of your as collateral for payday loan Renton, Washington WA offers to you. Wait for approval, and enjoy your cash. The reason why payday loans are so popular is that you almost cannot be denied, unlike any other loan. It could be said that auto payday loans are some kind of safe bets in the world of lending.
One of the very common questions is: «How can I get my payday back?» And the answer is — easy! Once you have repaid the loan, you can get it back at Renton payday loans locations.
All the loans in Renton, Washington are very affordable because qualifying rules are easy, and there is not much of them:
There are plenty of firms that provide affordable payday loans, Renton Washington WA, and not a problem to choose one that suits you more. Conditions do not differ a lot, to be honest, but maybe essential for you to have a bunch of lender locations near you.
Everything that concerns money is very complicated. The last thing desperate people in trouble want is to be cheated. Everything starts to look suspicious when you are struggling. Of course, the question of trustfulness is on the surface. Why should you trust one firm and should not trust the other one? Luckily for you, lenders make all the agreements transparent. Get the information you need from a website or just give them a call. It seems like almost every single action in the 21st century could be done without leaving your bed. Which is cool because it saves a lot of time.
No one wants to share his personal information with an unknown person through the internet. It's quite understandable because there are a bunch of criminals in the world these days. What could happen to you? Your identity may be stolen! Identity thieves steal your personal information to use in the way they want. Thieves open new bank accounts under your name, gain access to all your existing accounts, and use your financial information to get profit. The worst part of all of this is that the trouble may remain unnoticed until there is a bill for some operations that cost you a huge amount of money to repay. It takes a lot of time to fix all the issues usually. Although it doesn't even guarantee you that you will get your money back.
That's why important for lenders to secure their business. Renton, Washington uses very high-level protocols of security. Sites of Renton auto payday loans use heavy encryption to keep all your personal information private. None of the companies providing such services can share your information without special permission from you. All the documents should be destroyed once you have closed the deal.
Let's look at what best payday loans in Renton, Washington may offer to us to see if worth it. Numerous companies supply you with payday loans. Some of them are bigger than others, and their offer is a little bit more interesting. Here are some common pros:
If you are looking for any possible option to get quick money, payday loans in Renton of Washington can be really helpful for you. It's hard to imagine an easier and faster way to find cash. Sometimes, it is a good way to take oneself out of a crisis, but not always. Remember not to be greedy and borrow what you need. This method is too simple, and that's the reason why it's easy to take more than is needed. Easy payday loans Renton, Washington may lead you into bigger financial problems if they are taken without serious intentions. The repayment capability is essential not only for your lender but for you as well.
As it was already mentioned, you should be smart and think over before making a decision. All types of short-term loans have their disadvantages. Every single decision should be made that way. What comes to American payday loans Renton, Washington it's really important to know all the aspects, because this decision could be vital in an emergency. However, there are no bad or good decisions. The only question is, does this solution suits you. Here's the list of cons for you to make the right choice if you doubt:
Try to find alternative ways first. Take your time and keep calm. Usually, people in trouble are in panic and can't think straight. The consequences of panic and decisions made under stress are dreadful sometimes. Look through the possibilities to make sure you haven't missed something:
Talk to your lender, do not try to cheat or hide your troubles. There are no pros for both of you if you won't repay the whole sum. Lenders used to face situations like this, and they have experience in such questions. If you are struggling financially, reach your loan agent as soon as you can. Some lenders can refinance your loan with better conditions for you because of the situation you have. A bigger term, lower payments all to make your repayment possible.


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Sports update: College athletes can unionize, federal agency says
The Associated Press
CHICAGO — In a stunning ruling that could revolutionize college sports, a federal agency said Wednesday that football players at Northwestern University can create the nation's first union of college athletes.
The decision by a regional director of the National Labor Relations Board answered the question at the very heart of the debate of the unionization bid: The football players who receive full scholarships to the Big Ten school, the agency found, do qualify as employees under federal law and therefore can legally unionize.
"Based on the entire record in this case, I find that the Employer's football players who receive scholarships fall squarely within (the) broad definition of 'employee," Peter Sung Ohr, the NLRB regional director, said in his 24-page decision.
The Evanston, Ill.-based university argued that college athletes, as students, don't fit in the same category as factory workers, truck drivers and other unionized workers. Immediately after the ruling, the school announced it plans to appeal to labor authorities in Washington, D.C.
Those advocating for letting the players unionize argued the university ultimately treats football as more important than academics for its scholarship players. Despite Northwestern's denials, Ohr sided with the players on that issue.
"The record makes clear that the employer's scholarship players are identified and recruited in the first instance because of their football prowess and not because of their academic achievement in high school," Ohr wrote. He also noted that among the evidence presented by Northwestern, "no examples were provided of scholarship players being permitted to miss entire practices and/or games to attend their studies."
The ruling also described how the life of a football player at Northwestern is far more regimented than that of a typical student, down to requirements about what they can and can't eat to whether they can live off campus or purchase a car. At times during the year, players put in 50 or 60 hours a week into football, he added.
Alan Cubbage, Northwestern's vice president for university relations, said in a statement that while the school respects "the NLRB process and the regional director's opinion, we disagree with it."
The next step in the process of unionization would be for scholarship players to hold a vote on whether or not to formally authorize the College Athletes Players Association, or CAPA, to represent it "for collective bargaining purposes," according to the NLRB decision.
The specific goals of CAPA include guaranteeing coverage of sports-related medical expenses for current and former players, ensuring better procedures to reduce head injuries and potentially letting players pursue commercial sponsorships.
But critics have argued that giving college athletes employee status and allowing them to unionize could hurt college sports in numerous ways, including by raising the prospects of strikes by disgruntled players or lockouts by athletic departments.
For now, the push is to unionize athletes at private schools, such as Northwestern, because the federal labor agency does not have jurisdiction over public universities.
Outgoing Wildcats quarterback Kain Colter took a leading role in establishing CAPA. The United Steelworkers union has been footing the legal bills.


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Thursday, April 22, 2010
THE PRINCESS AND THE FROG - your thoughts?
So - what are your thoughts about THE PRINCESS AND THE FROG?
Personally, I thought it was a remarkable return to great classic Disney animation. Beautiful visuals, charming and charismatic characters, great storytelling with drama, comedy and heart... and the Randy Newman score took me completely by surprise as one of his best efforts.
I was thoroughly entertained!
It seems there are two camps... some people love Disney no matter what the studio does. Others look to find fault no matter how earnestly Disney approaches making their films.
I'd like to see some good, honest commentary here. Share what you liked, and didn't like, about this film.
So - what are your thoughts about THE PRINCESS AND THE FROG?
45 comments:
- C.Edwards said...
Isn't there a third camp somewhere in between? "People who are optimistic about Disney projects like the Princess/Frog and while recognizing why it's good don't necessarily think it's meets the bar compared to some of their modern classics?"
I feel like I fall into this camp. I think the animation/disney is top notch as always, but the story itself could've been stronger.
I either want a full musical or no music, Princess/Frog was a little light, the lead had one real song and comic relief had two.
I thought this villain was really great, but didn't really believe his connection to the story was strong enough.
I question some the character development of Charlotte, Eudora and Laurence.
And there are many comments that can be made about the races of the two leads that I feel that no matter how legitimately they are expressed people shut down and claim "oversensitivity".
I guess as a whole I thought that while enjoyable, "The Princess and The Frog" lacked the charmingly simple storytelling of the studios previous fairy tale pictures.
- April 22, 2010 at 12:31 PM
- Alphonse Doré et Noir said...
I realliy liked the princess and the frog, and I think it's great that Diseny is coming back to the Prince-Princess films, though something was missing in the film, I don't know what, bu it's understandable since DIsney hasn't done any Princess film since Mulna. I want to think that it's just that they are a little bit rusty.
- April 22, 2010 at 12:42 PM
- Luis María Benítez said...
I watched this movie. Personally, I don't like many things from Disney. But the animation is beautiful, the background desings are amazing.
Despite nowadays most of people consider that musicals in these movies are something from the past, I think this time it was a great opportunity to refresh people's hears and have the chance to listen to some jazz like the old times.
- April 22, 2010 at 12:47 PM
- Brett W. McCoy said...
I liked PatF quite a bit, I saw it on opening night... great music and great animation. I really liked the villain in this one also.
- April 22, 2010 at 12:53 PM
- ROB RICHARDS said...
C. Edwards, I agree, there IS indeed a third camp. And you and I are firmly there!
No less than Walt Disney expressed the problem - with SNOW WHITE, the studio created something so nearly perfect it would be impossible to match, let alone top.
That standard still stands today.
Alphonse Doré et Noir - I think that future Disney animated features will indeed get better and better. With the esteemed John Lasseter overseeing things, there is no doubt the Pixar creative standard will enhance the work at Disney.
Luis María Benítez - musicals are, were, and will always have a place in the entertainment world. Musician Howard Ashman was a key player in Disney story development and the animation Renaissance during the 1980s and 1990s. As talented as Alan Menken is, Howard's death dealt a heavy blow to the studio.
The Sherman Brothers were very involved in story and creative development in the 1960s.
Walt Disney recognized that music would be a key component in his films in the 1920s. And it has remained so.
Will a perfect combination of people come together to create another string of Disney animated films as it did in the 1980s? We can only hope! I believe that synchronicity is developing already.
One need only compare THE PRINCESS AND THE FROG to HOME ON THE RANGE to see the quantum leap back to Disney excellence.
While PRINCESS AND THE FROG may not be perfect, it is a great animated film and great entertainment. I, for one, eagerly look forward to more!
- April 22, 2010 at 1:14 PM
- Claire said...
I am also of the third camp. I really liked the Princess and The Frog and thought it lived up to the Disney production quality. I especially loved the sequence during "Almost There". However, I was a little disappointed that Disney didn't take a perfect opportunity to push the boundaries and re-invent themselves. Instead of innovating 2D again by coming up with something new, I felt they played it a little safe in the look, story and presentation. Since making another 2D movie was a little risky anyway, it seems that they would have had nothing to lose by coming up with a fresh new look that would raise the bar again. That said, I have been and always will be a Disney fan at heart and I am optimistic that they will eventually come out with something that will blow us all away the way Lion King did when it came out.
- April 22, 2010 at 1:39 PM
- ROB RICHARDS said...
I appreciate your comments. I don't really think Disney played it safe on this one though.
Having a black American princess was long overdue. I thought Tiana was an incredible character, beautiful and very well written - tough, spunky, sweet, sassy, and charming.
Yet the naysayers still found fault with her.
As they did with the Cajun firefly character Ray. I found that particularly unfair. After all, he was a comic character...
Sometimes it seems Disney can't win no matter what! I think the film succeeded at breaking some new ground...
One step at a time!
- April 22, 2010 at 2:16 PM
- Claire said...
I think you're right. I loved Tiana, Ray and all the characters. Disney is a master at developing characters that you can really empathize with. I think people (myself included) just have such high expectations for Disney that they can easily get unfairly picked apart. Disney has so much amazing talent, I would love to see something a little different visually. One step at a time is right though, and I think The Princess and The Frog is definitely a step in the right direction. I will always love 2D animation the best and I hope that Disney continues to make more 2D features!
- April 22, 2010 at 2:32 PM
- Nancy Muller said...
Third camp, most definitely. I approached this movie with a cautious optimism, and found that while I quite enjoyed it, it could have been much stronger. But I do believe Princess and the Frog is a step in the right direction for Disney.
For me, the music was good but not very memorable, with a few exceptions. The "Almost There" sequence was one of my favorites musically and visually, and the same goes for Mama Odie's "Dig a Little Deeper." They were both such fun and both were relevant and important to the characters and story. I wish there had been some sort of reprise for "Almost There," though.
The main characters were likable but not as genuine as I would have liked. They were too one-track minded, and so lacked depth. I felt the same about the villain. Oddly enough, I really loved some of the supporting characters, though I wish there had been more development all around.
But some things that were just plain right. The backgrounds were lovely, the color scheme was very strong, and all together it was a delight for the eyes.
And *sigh,* the very idea of a firefly in love with a star... oh Evangeline! I loved that. It grabbed me right by the heart.
I think while the Princess and the Frog may not be a perfect film, it's fun and enjoyable and a great step in a promising direction. I just really really hope to see more growth and movies of the same spirit in Disney's future.
- April 22, 2010 at 3:04 PM
- Rafael said...
First of all, thank you for posting more TPATF backgrounds, they are awesome!
About the movie, I really enjoyied it. But I have to say that one of the weaker points about the movie was Facilier. He didn't had a strong story, a real reason to do what he was doing, it seemed to me that it wasn't well written.
Sometimes I think there were too many characters to develop and they didn't found enough screen time for each one. Having said that, the comic duo - Ray and Louis - had, if not in a deep basis like Tiana, a well written story, specially Ray - I'll never forget what I felt watching his story coming to an end (but I would never change a single line about him).
I also love Naveen's story. Actually, Naveen and Tiana's. How they come to know each other until they fall in love. You really feel for these characters. The audience knows they have trully fallen in love for each other, and is beautiful watching that.
About the songs. I'm a huge musicals fan, and I have to confess I downloaded the songs before watched the movie, cuz I was afraid of what Randy could bring up to the movie (I'm not a big fan of Toy Story soundtracks). I was impressed, really loved Mama Odie's song and When We're Human. But after watching/listening it in the big screen, I felt like something was missing. Maybe a big ballad for Tiana (maybe I was expecting too much), but what didn't clicked me was that it didn't felt epic as other movies. Tho I agree that it works well in the movie.
Overall, I really like the movie, went two times to the theater, bought the blu-ray+dvd as soon as it was released and Disney once more left me hopeful for the next masterpiece to come (as Enchanted did lit up the sleepy flame inside us). PS. I just wish Charlotte had more screen time, the girl made me laugh hard!
- April 22, 2010 at 4:44 PM
- Unknown said...
If I'm honest, it was the backgrounds which first really grabbed my attention. Having just finished a thesis film riddled with intricate background work, it was a pleasure for me to sit back and enjoy the stunning parts of this film that don't move! (similarly to the way I appreciate Sleeping Beauty) But BIG mention must go to the spoiled blonde character whose name I can't recall. My god, her animation was good! Her keys were stunning. I also really enjoyed the alligator. I suppose I'm in camp one, since there is always a tasty nugget for me to extract from a Disney film, regardless of the film's overall quality.
- April 22, 2010 at 5:17 PM
- Ian Merch! said...
I thought it started off strong, but fell into some of my least favorite story pitfalls midway through. I loved the Tiana character, but still don't understand why she fell in love with the prince. Plus I thought the firefly was annoying. Other than that I thought it was pretty high quality and loved a lot of the animation and little touches. Charlotte and Louis were really fun characters, as was Facilier.
I'm optimistic about Winnie the Pooh, and hope that Eric Goldberg is animating the titular bear, as he's my favorite animator, and I'll look forward to future projects, but I thought Princess and the Frog ranked somewhere in the middle, as far as Disney films go.
- April 22, 2010 at 7:57 PM
- Unknown said...
(My comment exceeds maximum character count, so I am splitting it into two parts.)
Part One
Personally, I thought that TPATF was more dedicated to making money and merchandising than to creating a good story or good animated movie and that it showed.
I understand that Disney is a business out to make money, of course, and I'm not going to claim stupid things like "betrayal" and blah blah blah. Disney makes money by selling what people will buy, in merchandise and movies. Much as some people might worry about -- and criticize Disney for -- the Disney Princess line, that line sells because people buy. It is why this is The Princess And The Frog, not The Frog Prince.
I love Disney animated movies. I grew up on them. I continue, as an adult, to watch them with adoration. I used to want to be an animator. As a child, I drew Disney fan art and created my own original characters in the Disney style. So, I had to watch the latest offering.
And it just was not very good. Overall, it felt more like the discussions for what to do went more along the lines of, "Hey, what sold really well from this movie and that movie and this other movie? Rehash that stuff!" than, "What would make a good and original rewrite of a famous -- though widely misunderstood -- fairy tale?"
The story felt lacking, and many scenes felt like filler, like the story could not carry an 80 minute (or however long) film. Normally, musical numbers are great fun, but these felt like tedious moments that I had to sit through before I was allowed to watch the story continue.
- April 22, 2010 at 8:13 PM
- Unknown said...
Part Two
The characters were really hit-and-miss. Tiana herself... ugh, I could make my issues with her an entire separate post; I have been thinking of doing so! In summary, she is incredibly single-minded and the girl doth protest too much against princes, methinks. The villain was too ineffective and threatened by his own demons to seem threatening, and the lightening bug... I don't think that I'm supposed to celebrate when a major supporting character gets stepped on, or annoyed when he apparently survived that long enough for a "touching" drawn-out death scene later.
On the flip side, Charlotte and Prince Naveen were fun. Charlotte made me think of a non-villainous Darla Dimple (Cats Don't Dance), and that character was fun. Pretty girls too often have to be fairly straight characters to keep them pretty. Charlotte was pretty, but she had flair and flaws that made me want to know her better. Prince Naveen, likewise, was flamboyant and enjoyable. Sure, he and Charlotte were flakier than Tiana. If I want to hire someone, then I'll select Tiana. If I want to watch an entertaining movie about someone, then I'll select those two.
The moral of the story: FAIL. The message is theoretically to work hard for what you want, but let's look at what happened: Tiana worked hard and still failed to get what she wanted. She still had to be saved by a prince (with a crocodile's help) to get her dream.
Also, why didn't Tiana just get a loan from Charlotte and her father in the first place? She obviously had a good history with them, first her mother working for them and then Tiana regularly serving them their favorite food at a restaurant. Alternatively, why wasn't she working for them directly, where she probably could have gotten better pay than she did from waitressing? They clearly liked her food and hired her to cook for them on odd jobs. Take advantage of your good business connections where you have them!
There's also the animation itself, which felt a little phoned-in in places. Yes, yes, it was pretty, but the backgrounds were not as masterful as they have been in other movies. Also, more than once in the 2-D movie (my SO gets headaches from 3-D movies, so we watch them in 2-D), we could see where the editing crew had not bothered to fix things from 3-D to 2-D, so images looked wrong.
For me, TPATF was simply not a good movie. While I assume that many of its predecessors that I loved were at least partially written and made with profits in mind, this one felt like it showed that it was written with profits in mind, and not art or good story-telling.
- April 22, 2010 at 8:13 PM
- Luca Bonatti said...
couldn't agree more with Sheryl! Wasted occasion to show what 2D Disney movies could be capable of.
- April 23, 2010 at 12:29 AM
- Rafael said...
For Nancy Muller: there's actually an Almost There reprise in the movie. It's when she's in Charlotte's room, heading to the balcony. You can listen to it in the track Ray Laid Down, by 1min39s. IT's shorts, but still, a reprise. :P
- April 23, 2010 at 6:45 AM
- Fabien said...
I just loved it altogether.
Great movie really!!!
- April 23, 2010 at 7:56 AM
- patrikspacek said...
just my opinion: today everything is so expensive and spent around 100mil $ just for clean-ups work its ridicilous! I wish to be back in 50s I care more about work than money! My opinion about this movies is, that nine old men would do much better job. They always care about those little details, they did more detailed research, they put more motion into the characters, all was more blended and smooth. Same way was Don Bluth, who did great job on Anastasia etc. I know there was a lot of work done on this movie, and it cost ridicilous money, but when I watch it, I can see many rush work moments there. Cut the money, do better job (sadly)
- April 23, 2010 at 9:38 AM
- darren charlton said...
s a true fan of Disney and traditional hand drawn animation i was so underwhelmed. What was progressive renaissance of the old style in the 90's came off as pastiche here and dare I say it looked like sub standard 80's Don Bluth. The quality of character designs was patchy. All the progress made with more challenging features like Pocahontas seems lost now and I can only hope that they gather strength with Rapunzel. They need to look forward more than look back at this point I feel.
- April 23, 2010 at 11:07 AM
- RAWLS said...
I agree with there being a third camp... those who honestly love 'classic' disney animation and who look for that to return. This was proclaimed as that said return to their classic roots, but in my honest opinion was a very poor attempt. Now, I say poor attempt, not because the backgrounds weren't beautiful, they were, not because the fx weren't fantastic, as they were as well. But because the most important core points were lacking. Story and character. I'll give them a B for effort on trying to do a story that was a little... 'different', but it just came off being too forced and cliche. If the story stinks, no amount of good art can save it. But sadly, the character designs were some of the worst I've seen to date.
So overall, C for a good try, but in the end, a fail in my books.
- April 23, 2010 at 1:41 PM
- Unknown said...
I personally loved the movie, although it isn't my favorite and I do see the flaws in it. I think people's expectations were so high for this film that they set themselves up for disappointment: don't forget that Hollywood will Always play it safe at established studios. And remember that it took approx. 3 films Before the Lion King to build the studio back up to it's early standards. (Although Lion King is my least favorite of Mermaid, Beauty, and Aladdin)
Considering which, I was delighted to see the animation in the Almost There sequence: as a designer, and long-time animation enthusiast, I thought it was gorgeous!
I'm really excited about Rapunzel: the story is close to my heart and everything I've seen from it so far looks great. TPatF is a spring board: delightful in its own way, Almost There in terms of story and development, and opening the door for more films to follow.
- April 24, 2010 at 7:24 AM
- Mckay Boxberger said...
I thought it looked entertaining and fun to look at with charismic characters in all, it's just that there where so many loopholes like in every other disney film and Prince Naveen looked exactly like the prince guy in Little Mermaid except he's black. And also the huge alligator guy looked so similar from the big lipped alligator from All Dogs go to Heaven personality-wise. But all of that's just nit picking the film itself was pretty fun.
- April 24, 2010 at 10:00 AM
- Nicol3 said...
I'm still bitter-- though I feel like I'd have to see it again to reflect (more accurately) upon my likes and dislikes.
But as of now, I'm firmly with Sheryl on this one; especially the "rehash, regurgitate" comment.
I mean, 'dis ere joint had it all. WOOOH, DA MUSIC. 'Dem KOOKY CHARACTERS. BLATANT ROMANTIC TENSION. And let's not forget.. CULTURE. OOooh Wee Cher'. Beignets anyone?
Okay, so maybe the those elements weren't nearly as extreme... But then again-- the film itself made little to no use of subtlety.
It also suffers heavily from a heavy dosage of GENERIC I-DONT-CARE-ACTER OVERLOAD. I mean, look at the poster. It's friggin' engorged. There are too many stint-characters to keep track of! Birds, and Turtles, and dingbat Hillbillies, Oh my!
Why yes, I'd love some cheese with this whine.
There's one more thing I really really need to get off my chest.
Why is this film robbed of ALL ethnicity?
Yeah, they sprinkled it with a bit of Gumbo generic Louisiana cultural elements-- we got that.
But down to it's core-- The final designs are so cockblocked and watered down that even though many of the main the characters are black-- they look no different from their white counterparts.
They don't HAVE to look pickaninny to be appealing! What were they so afraid of? Earlier designs of Tiana (Then Maddy) looked so promising.
I watched as design releases got more and more and more.. chocolate-dipped Jasmine + Belle hybrid. That poofy, badass hair? Gone. Those sleepy, sultry eyes? Wretched open for the sake of being cute.
I feel like I want a redo. More risks, mind you. But I guess that's all one can really expect from "That Company" as of now-- gamey films that cater to bubblegum-blowers.
- April 26, 2010 at 7:44 PM
- Unknown said...
Yes 'Princess and frog' is cool. But I will suggest you to place some oooold movies like Jungle book, Sword in the stone (where the old men drawn on cell and painted behind that) near to it them compare it. I will say it has nothing new even the song is in old ward kimball style.Just look at the animation flow of the old movies. Each action will make your eyes pop out. Here you can find out some flaws very easily. In order to bring the lost glory if the Romans decide to use their old age costumes, I bet it will be a foolishness. We should try to bring that IMPACT back which we see in the old movies.
- April 26, 2010 at 11:51 PM
- Unknown said...
I'll be blunt. Watching it felt awful, It seemed jumbled, almost as if it where a million piece puzzle and all the pieces are slammed together in whatever part looks right. The art looked gross, I hope you'll take the time and look at water effects in older Disney films and realized Princess and the Frog's looked like clear melted human flesh.
I saw Ponyo for the first time that same day, it's not as much computer input but it got a more solid feeling and the water(Which was everywhere) looks like water. There is a big gap to the two, and because of Walt's and the great nine's absence I don't think the Disney company can fill it.
- April 27, 2010 at 10:32 PM
- Squibble said...
I loved the film, and I am hoping it is just the start of a new series of Disney 2d animated movies. I wrote an in-depth review a while back:
- May 2, 2010 at 3:13 PM
- Art by Andy Bauer said...
I haven't read what other people said as their comments on this blog... but, in my opinion, it was fantastic. The storytelling was captivating and the visuals were top notch. I did read at another blog about how certain things weren't done right but after watching it again... I forgive Disney.
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- June 29, 2010 at 2:08 PM
I think the story would have recieved far less attention if it had not been Disney's first attempt (that's an embarassment in and of ITSELF that they took so long) at making black main characters. There are dozens of Disney movies, and some are undeniable Classics, and others fell through the cracks and you can only find copies of them on Amazon or Ebay. If this had featured white characters I don't think people would be as scared to admit that the movie was a disappointment, considering how much hype it received prior to its release. The story line was too shallow, with very little SUBSTANCE, I think. If it WAS gumbo, TPATF would be missing hot sauce, definitely. The plot was missing something that made me actually CARE. The heroine was just a monotonous cliche of the Spunky Hopeful Girl with Dreams, the 'prince' was a JOKE, and the supporting characters were actually the only thing that kept me watching the show. Keith David is always PHENOMENAL as a villain, but I think even his efforts were wasted on a rather un-terrifying villain, compared to the late greats like Maleficent, The Wicked Queen from Snow White, Scar, and Lady Tremane. The firefly was humorous and I felt more for his relationship with Evangeline than for Naveen & Triana's. Jennifer Lewis was great at giving the old woman (forgot her name) life, and that rich friend of Triana's stole every scene they shared together. Of course the animation was stunning, but that's Disney for you. All in all, I think they should have thought the story through more and given the plot more fluffing. :(
- January 18, 2011 at 1:14 PM
- Unknown said...
I'm pretty late to this party, but I found the movie to be overly-animated in an attempt to celebrate it's 2D-ness. There were many scenes that seemed extra zany or otherwise had overly-bombastic animation. It really messed with my ability to connect to the characters. The work in the recent Winnie the Pooh is significantly better (actually, go watch Winnie the Pooh; it was excellent).
I also didn't care for the story on the whole. Unless I misunderstand, the message of the movie is, "don't work harder to achieve you dreams, keep you mind open to where love and fate point, you and you'll be happy." The fact that they characterized Tiana as being short-sighted for wanting to work hard to achieve her goals (because what she really needed was love.) really bothered me.
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