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A | Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. Today, my guest is doctor Lex Friedman. Doctor Lex Friedman is an expert in electrical and computer engineering, artificial intelligence, and robotics. He is also the host of the Lex Friedman podcast, which initially started as a podcast focused on technology and science of various kinds, including computer science and physics, but rapidly evolved to include guests and other topics as a matter of focus, including sport. For instance, Doctor Lex Friedman is a black belt in brazilian jiu jitsu, and he's had numerous guests on who come from the fields of brazilian jiu jitsu, both from the coaching side and from the competitor side. He also has shown an active interest in topics such as chess and essentially anything that involves intense activation and engagement of the mind and or body. In fact, the Lex Friedman podcast has evolved to take on very difficult topics, such as mental health. He's had various psychiatrists and other guests on that relate to mental health and mental illness, as well as guests focused on geopolitics and some of the more controversial issues that face our times. He's had comedians, he's had scientists, he's had friends. He's had enemies. On his podcast, Lex has a phenomenal, I would say, a one in an 8 billion ability to find these people, make them comfortable, and in that comfort, both try to understand them and to confront them and to push them so that we all learn. All of which is to say that Lex Friedman is no longer just an accomplished scientist. He certainly is that. But he has also become one of the more preeminent thought leaders on the planet. And if there's anything that really captures the essence of Lex Friedman, it's his love of learning, his desire to share with us the human experience, and to broaden that experience so that we all may benefit. In many ways, our discussion during today's episode captures the many facets of Lex Friedman, although no conversation, of course, could capture them all. We sit down to the conversation just days after Lech's return from Ukraine, where he deliberately placed himself into the tension of that environment in order to understand the geopolitics of the region and to understand exactly what was happening at the level of the ground and the people there. You may notice that he carries quite a lot of both emotion and knowledge and understanding. And yet, in a very classic Lex Friedman way, you'll notice that he's able to zoom out of his own experience around any number of different topics and view them through a variety of lenses so that, first of all, everyone feel included, but most of all so that everyone learns something new, that is, to gain a new perspective. Our discussion also ventures into the waters of social media and how that landscape is changing the way that science and technology are communicated. We also get into the topics of motivation, drive, and purpose, both finding it and executing on that drive and purpose. I should mention that this is episode 100 of the Huberman Lab podcast, and I would be remiss if I did not tell you that there would be no Huberman Lab podcast were it not for Lex Friedmande I was a fan of the Lex Friedman podcast long before I was ever invited onto the podcast as a guest, and after our first recording, Lex was the one that suggested that I start a podcast. He only gave me two pieces of advice. The first piece of advice was start a podcast, and the second piece of advice was that I not just make it me blabbing into the microphone and staring at the camera. So I can safely say that I at least followed half of his advice, and that I am ever grateful for Lexin, both as a friend, a colleague in science, and now fellow podcaster, for making the suggestion that we start this podcast. I already mentioned a few of the topics covered on today's podcast, but I can assure you that there is far more to the person that many of us know as Lex Friedman. If you are somebody interested in artificial intelligence, engineering, or robotics, today's discussion is most certainly for you. And if you are not, but you are somebody who is interested in world politics and more importantly, the human experience, both the individual and the collective human experience, Lex shares what can only be described as incredible insights into what he views as the human experience and what is optimal in order to derive from our time on this planet. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast. Our first sponsor is element. Element is an electrolyte drink with everything you need and nothing you don't. That means plenty of salt, magnesium, and potassium, the so called electrolytes, and no sugar. Salt, magnesium, and potassium are critical to the function of all the cells in your body, in particular to the function of your nerve cells, also called neurons. In fact, in order for your neurons to function properly all three electrolytes need to be present in the proper ratios, and we now know that even slight reductions in electrolyte concentrations or dehydration of the body can lead to deficits in cognitive and physical performance. Element contains a science backed electrolyte ratio of 1000 milligrams. That's 1 gram of sodium, 200 milligrams of potassium, and 60 milligrams of magnesium. I typically drink element first thing in the morning when I wake up in order to hydrate my body and make sure I have enough electrolytes. And while I do any kind of physical training and after physical training as well, especially if I've been sweating a lot, if you'd like to try element, you can go to drinkelement. That's lmnt.com huberman to claim a free element sample pack with your purchase. Again, that's drinkelementlmnt.com Huberman Today's episode is also brought to us by waking up. Waking up is a meditation app that includes hundreds of meditation programs, mindfulness trainings, yoga, Nidra sessions, and NSDR non sleep deep rest protocols. I started using the waking up app a few years ago because even though I've been doing regular meditations since my teens and I started doing yoga Nidra about a decade ago, my dad mentioned to me that he had found an app, turned out to be the waking up app, which could teach you meditations of different durations and that had a lot of different types of meditations to place the brain and body into different states, and that he liked it very much. So I gave the waking up app a try, and I too found it to be extremely useful because sometimes I only have a few minutes to meditate, other times I have longer to meditate. And indeed, I love the fact that I can explore different types of meditation to bring about different levels of understanding about consciousness, but also to place my brain and body into lots of different kinds of states depending on which meditation I do. I also love that the waking up app has lots of different types of yoga Nidra sessions. For those of you who don't know, yoga Nidra is a process of lying very still but keeping an active mind. It's very different than most meditations, and there's excellent scientific data to show that yoga Nidra, and something similar to it called non sleep deep rest, or NSDR, can greatly restore levels of cognitive and physical energy, even with just a short ten minute session. If you'd like to try the waking up app, you can go to wakingup.com huberman and access a free 30 day trial. Again, that's wakingup.com huberman to access a free 30 day trial. And now for my discussion with doctor Lex Friedman. Welcome back. |
B | It's good to be back in a bedroom. This feels like a porn set. I apologize to open that way. I've never been in a porn set, so I should admit this. |
A | Our studio is being renovated. So here we are for the monumental recording of episode 100, episode 100 of the Heberman Lab podcast, which was inspired by the Lex Friedman podcast. Some people already know this story, but I'll repeat it again for those that don't. There would not be a Huberman Lab podcast were it not for Lex Friedman. Because after recording as a guest on his podcast a few years ago, he made the suggestion that I start a podcast, and he explained to me how it works, and he said, you should start a podcast, but just make sure that it's not you blabbing the whole time. Andrew and I only sort of followed the advice. |
B | Yeah, well, you surprised. Surprised me, surprised the world that you're able to talk for hours and cite some of the best science going on and be able to give people advice without many interruptions or edits or any of that. I mean, that takes an incredible amount of skill that you're probably born with, and some of it is developed. I mean, the whole science community is proud of you, man. Stanford is proud of you. So, yeah, it's a beautiful thing. It was really surprising because it's unclear how a scientist can do a great podcast that's not just shooting the shit about random stuff, but really is giving very structured, good advice. That's boiling down the state of the art science into something that's actually useful for people. So that was impressive. It's like, holy shit, he actually pulled this off and doing it every week on a different topic that, I mean, you know, I'm usually positive, especially for people I love and support. But damn, I thought, there's no way he's gonna be able to pull this off week after week. And it's been only getting better and better and better. I had a whole rant on a recent podcast, I forget with who, of how awesome you are with Rana El Kalubi. She's emotion recognition person, AI person. And then she didn't know who you were, and I was like, what the hell do you mean? And I just went on this whole rant of how awesome you are. It was hilarious. |
A | Well, I'm very gratified to hear this. It's a little uncomfortable for me to hear. But listen, I'm just really happy if people are getting information that they like and can make actionable. And it was inspired by you. And look right back at you. I've followed a number of your structural formats. Attire, I don't wear a tie. I'm constantly reminded about this by my father, who says what? He saw my podcast, he was like, why don't you dress properly like your friend Lex? He literally said that. And it's a debate that goes back and forth, but nonetheless, how does it feel? |
B | Episode 100. How does it feel? You know, I imagine you're here. You're here after so many episodes and done so much. I mean, the number of hours is just insane. The amount of passion, the amount of work you put into this. What's it feel like? |
A | It feels great. And it feels very much like the horizon is still at the same distance in front of me. You know, every episode, I just try and get information there. And the process we talked about on your podcast, we won't go into it of collecting information, distilling it down to some simple notes, walking around, listening to music, trying to figure out what the motifs are. And then as just like you, I don't use a teleprompter, anything like that. There's very minimal notes. So feels great, and I love it. And again, I'm just grateful to you for inspiring it, and I just want to keep going and do more of it. And I should say I am also relieved that we're sitting here because you recently went overseas to a very intense war zone, literally to Ukraine. And the entire time that you were there, I was genuinely concerned. The world's an unpredictable place in general, and we don't always get the only vote and what happens to us. So, first of all, welcome back safely. One piece, one alive piece. And what was that like? I mean, at a broad level, at a specific level, what drew you there? What surprised you, and how do you think it changed you in coming back here? |
B | I think there's a lot to say. But first, it is really good to be back. One of the things that when you go to a difficult part of the world, or a part of the world that's going through something difficult, you really appreciate how great it is to be an american. Everything, the easy access to food, despite what people think, the stable, reliable rule of law, the lack of corruption, in that you can trust that if you start a business or if you take on various pursuits in life, that there's not going to be at scale manipulation of your efforts. Such that you can't succeed. So that this kind of, you know, capitalism is in its. The ideal of capitalism is really still burning bright in this country, and it really makes you appreciate those aspects and also just the ability to have a home for generations across generations. So you can have your grandfather live in, I don't know, Kentucky in a certain city, and then his children live there, and you live there, and then it just continues on and on. That's the kind of thing you can have when you don't have war, because war destroys entire communities. It destroys histories. Generations like life stories that stretch across the generations. |
A | Yeah. Didn't even think about that until you said just now. But photographs, hard drives get destroyed or just abandoned. Right. Libraries. I mean, nowadays things exist in the cloud, but there are still a lot of material goods that have, you know, are irreplaceable. Right. |
B | Well, even, you know, in rural parts of the United States, they don't exist in the cloud. Right. A lot of people still. Well, even in towns, they still love the physical photo album of your family. A lot of people still store their photographs of families in the store, the vhs tapes and all that kind of stuff. Yeah. But I think there's so many things I've learned and really felt the lessons, one of which is nobody gives a damn when your photos are gone and all that kind of stuff. Your house is gone. The thing, time and time again, I saw, for people that lost everything is how happy they are for the people they love, the friends, the family that are still alive. That's the only thing they talk about that, in fact, they don't mention, actually, with much dramatic sort of vigor about the trauma of losing your home. They're just nonstop saying how lucky they are that person x, person y is still here. And that makes you realize that when you lose everything, it still makes you realize what really matters, which is the people in your life. I mean, a lot of people kind of realize that later in life when you're facing mortality, when you're facing your death or, you know, you get a cancer diagnosis, that kind of stuff. I think people here in America, in California, with the fires, you can still lose your home. You realize, like, nah, it doesn't really matter. It's a pain in the ass. But what matters is still the family, the people, and so on. I think the most intense thing, I talked to several hundred people, some of which is recorded. I've really been struggling to put that out cause I have to edit it myself. And so you're talking about 30, 40 hours of footage. |
A | Is it emotionally struggling? |
B | Yeah. |
A | Emotional struggle is extremely difficult. |
B | So I talk to a lot of politicians, the number two in the country, number three, I'll be back there to talk to the president, to do a three hour conversation. Those are easy to edit. You know, they're really heartfelt and thoughtful folks from different perspectives on the geopolitics of the war. But the ones that are really hard to edit is, like grandmas that are, like, in the middle of nowhere. They lost everything. They still have hope, they still have love. And some of them have. Some of them, many of them, unfortunately, have now hate in their heart. So in February, when Russia invaded Ukraine, this is the thing I realized about war. One of the most painful lessons is that war creates generational hate. We sometimes think about war as a thing that kills people, kills civilians, kills soldiers, takes away lives, injures people. But we don't directly think about the secondary and tertiary effects of that, which lasts decades, which is anyone who's lost a father or a mother or a daughter or a son, they now hate not just the individual soldiers of the leaders that invaded their country, but the entirety of the people. So it's not that they hate Vladimir Putin or hate the russian military. They hate russian people. So that tears the fabric of a thing that, for me, you know, my half my family is from Ukraine, half my family is from Russia. But there's a. I remember the pain, the triumph of world War two still resonates through my entire family tree. And so you remember when the Russians and Ukrainians fought together against this nazi invasion, you remember a lot of that. And now to see the fabric of this peoples torn apart completely with hate is very, really, really difficult for me just to realize that things will just never be the same on this particular cultural, historical aspect. But also, there's so many painful ways in which things will never be the same, which is we've seen that it's possible to have a major hot war in the 21st century. I think a lot of people are watching this. China is watching this, India is watching this, United States is watching this and thinking, we can actually have a large scale war. And I think the lessons learned from that might be the kind that lead to a major World War III in the 21st century. So one of the things I realized, watching the whole scene is that we don't know shit about what's gonna happen in the 21st century. And it might. We kind of have this intuition, like, surely there's not gonna be another war. |
A | Like, we'll just coast. |
B | Yeah. Yeah. Pandemic and back to normal. |
A | Back to normal, whatever that is. |
B | But you have to remember at the end of World War one, you know, as Woodrow Wilson called it, the war to end all wars. Nobody, ironically, in a dark way, it was also the roaring twenties when people believed this, there will never be another world war. And 20 years after that, the rise of Nazi Germany, a charismatic leader that captivated the minds of millions and built up a military that can take on the whole world. And so it makes you realize that this is still possible. This is still possible. And then the tension, you see the media machine, the propaganda machine that I've gotten to see every aspect of. It's still fueling that division between America and China, between Russia and India. And then Africa has a complicated thing that's trying to figure out who are they with, who are they against? And just this tension is building and building. And it makes you realize, like we might. The thing that might shake human civilization may not be so far off. That's a realization you get to really feel. I mean, there's all kinds of other lessons, and one of which is propaganda, is I got to. I get a lot of letters, emails, and some of them are full of really intense language, full of hate from every side toward me. Well, the hate is towards me as representing side x, and x stands as a variable for every side. So either I'm a Zelensky show or I'm a Putin show or I'm a NATO show or I'm an America show, American Empire show, or I'm a Democrat or a Republican, because it's already been, in this country politicized. I think there's a sense of Ukraine is this place that's full of corruption. Why are we sending money there? I think that's kind of the messaging on the republican side. On the democratic side, I'm not even keeping track of the actual messaging and the conspiracy theories and the narratives. But the tension is there, and I get to feel it directly. And what you get to really experience is there's a large number of narratives that all are extremely confident in themselves, that they know the truth. People are convinced, first of all, that they're not being lied to. People in Russia think there's no propaganda. They think that, yes, yes, there's, like, state sponsored propaganda. But we're all smart enough to ignore the sort of lame propaganda that's everywhere. They know that we can think on our own. We know the truth. And everybody kind of speaks in this way. Everybody in the United States says, well, yes, there's mainstream media. They're full of messaging and propaganda. But we're smart. We can think on our own. Of course, we see through that. Everybody says this, and then the conclusion of their thought is often hatred towards some group, whatever that group is. And the more you've lost, the more intense the feeling of hatred. It's a really difficult field to walk through calmly and with an open mind and try to understand what's really going on. |
A | It's super intense. Those are the only words that come to mind as I hear this. You mentioned something that it seems that hate generalizes. You know, it's against an entire group or an entire country. Why do you think it is that hate generalizes and that love may or may not generalize? |
B | I've had so one of the, as you can imagine, the kind of question I asked is, do you have love or hate in your heart? It's a question I asked almost everybody. And then I would dig into this exact question that you're asking. I think some of the most beautiful things I've heard, which is people that are full of hate. Are you able to self introspect about it? They know they shouldn't feel it, but they can't help it. It's not. They know that ultimately, the thing that helps them and helps everyone is to feel love for a fellow man, but they can't help it. They know it's like a drug. They say, like, hate escalates. It's like a vicious spiral. You just can't help it. And the question I also asked is, do you think you'll ever be able to forgive Russia? And after much thought, almost it's split. But most people will say, no, I will never be able to forgive. |
A | And because of the generalization you talked about earlier, that could even include all Russian. They mean all Russians. |
B | Because. Because if you do nothing, that's as bad or worse than being part of the army that invades. So the people that are just sitting there, the good Germans, the people that are just quietly going on with their lives, you're just as bad, if not worse, is their perspective. |
A | Earlier, you said that going over to the Ukraine has now allowed you to realize just so many of the positives of being here in the United States. I have a good friend. We both know him. I won't name him by name, but we've communicated, the three of us, from tier one special operations. He spent years doing deployments. Really amazing individual. And I remember when the pandemic hit, he said on a text thread, Americans aren't used to the government interfering with their plans. Around the world, many people are familiar with governments dramatically interfering with their plans, sometimes even in a seemingly random way. Here we were not braced for that. I mean, we get speeding tickets and there's lines to vote and things like that. But I think the pandemic was one of the first times, at least in my life, that I can remember where it really seemed like the government was impeding what people naturally wanted to do. And that was a shock for people here. And I have what might seem like a somewhat mundane question, but it's something that I saw on social media. A lot of people were asking me to ask you, and I was curious about, too, what was a typical day like over there? Were you sleeping in a bed? Were you sleeping on the ground? Everyone seems to want to know, what were you eating? Were you eating once a day? Were you eating your steak? Or were you, were you in fairly deprived conditions over there? I saw a couple photos that you posted out of doors, in front of rubble with pith helmet on in one case. You know, what was a typical day like over there? |
B | So there's two modes. One of them, I spent a lot of time in Kiev, which is much safer than it may be obvious to state, but for people who don't know, it's in the middle of the country, and it's much safer than the actual front, where the battle is happening. So much, much safer than Kiev, even is lviv, which is the western part of the country. So the times I spent in Kiev were fundamentally different than the time I spent at the front. And I went to the Kherson region, which is where a lot of really heated battle was happening. There's several areas. So there's Kharkiv. It's in the northeast of the country. And then there's Donbass region, which is east of the country. And then there's Kherson region, which, by the way, I'm not good at geography. So is the southeast of the country, and that's where at least when I was, there was a lot of really heated fighting happening. So when I was in the Kherson region, there's, you know, it's what you would imagine the place I stayed in a hotel where all the lights have to stay off so the entire town, all the lights are off. You have to kind of navigate through the darkness and use your phone to shine and so on. |
A | This is terrible for the circadian system. |
B | Yeah, that's exactly how it was. This. How can I do this? Where's my element? And the flood of greens. How can I function? No, I think it was balanced by the deep appreciation of being alive. |
A | Right. No, I mean, this is the reason I ask. This is the reason I ask is, you know, we get used to all these creature comforts and we don't need them, but we often come to depend on them in a way that makes us feel like we need them. |
B | Yeah. But very quickly, there's something about the intensity of life that you see in people's eyes. Cause they're living through war that makes you forget all those creature comforts. And it was actually, you know, I'm somebody who hates traveling and so on. I love the creature habits. I love. I love the comfort of the ritual. Right. But all of that was forgotten very quickly. Just the intensity of feeling, the intensity of love that people have for each other. That was obvious in terms of food. So there's a curfew. So depends on what part of the country. But usually you basically have to scammer home at like 09:00 p.m. so the hard curfew in a lot of places is 11:00 p.m. at night. But by then you, like, you have to be home. So in some places it's ten. So at 09:00 p.m. you start going home, which for me was kind of wonderful also because I get to spend. I get to be forced to spend time alone and think for many hours in wherever I'm staying, which is really nice. In everybody. There's a calmness and the quietness to the whole thing in terms of food, once a day, just the food is incredibly cheap and incredibly delicious. People are still, one of the things they can still take pride in is making the best possible food they can. So meat. But they do admire american meat. So the meat is not as great as it could be in that country. But I eat borscht every day, you know, all that kind of stuff, mostly meat. So spend the entire day, wake up in the morning with coffee, spend the entire day talking to people, which for me is very difficult because of the intensity of the stories. One after the other after the other. We just talk to regular people, talk to soldiers, talk to politicians, all kinds of soldiers. I talked to people there who are doing rescue missions. So Americans hung out with Tim Kennedy. |
A | Oh, yeah, great Tim Kennedy. |
B | The great Tim Kennedy, who also him and many others revealed to me, one of the many reasons I'm proud to be an american is how trained and skilled and effective american soldiers are. |
A | I guess for listeners to this podcast, maybe we should familiarize them with who Tim Kennedy is, because I realize that a number of them will know. |
B | How do you do that? How do you try to summarize a man? |
A | Right. We can be accurate but not exhaustive, as any good data are accurate but not exhaustive. Very skilled and accomplished MMA fighter. Very skilled and accomplished. Special, former special operations. And we're american patriot and podcaster, too. Right? Does he have his own podcast? |
B | Maybe. |
A | Okay, maybe. We know Andy Stumpf has his own podcast. |
B | Yes. Yeah. Amazing podcast. Yeah. Which is great. |
A | Yeah. Clearing hot podcasts with Andy stumps. |
B | But also Tim Kennedy's like the embodiment of America to the. To the most beautiful and the most ridiculous degree. So he's like, would you imagine, what is it, team America, that, like, I just imagine him like, shirtless on a tank, rolling into enemy territory, just screaming at the top of his lungs. That's just his personality, but not posturing. |
A | That's it. He actually. He actually does the work, as they say. |
B | So this is the thing. He really embodies that. Now, some of that is just his personality and humor. I'd like to sort of comment on the humor of things, not just with him. It's very, one other interesting thing I've learned, but also when he's actually helping people, he's extremely good at what he does, which is building teams that rescue, that go into the most dangerous areas of Ukraine, dangerous areas anywhere else, and they get the job done. And one of the things I heard time and time again, which really interesting to me, that ukrainian soldiers said that, you know, comparing ukrainian, russian and american soldiers, american soldiers are the bravest, which was very interesting for me to hear, given how high the morale is for the ukrainian soldiers. But that just reveals that training enables you to be brave. So it's not just about how well trained they are and so on, it's how intense and ferocious they are in the fighting. And it makes you realize, like, this is american army, not just through the technology, especially the special force guys. They still is one of the most effective and terrifying armies in the world. And listen, just for context, I'm somebody who is, for the most part, anti war, a pacifist, but you get to see some of the realities of war kind of wake you up to what needs to get done to protect sovereignty, to protect some of the values, to protect civilians and homes and all that kind of stuff. Sometimes war has to happen. And I should also mention on the russian side, because while I haven't gotten to experience the russian side yet, I do fully plan to travel to Russia. As I've told everybody, I was very upfront with everybody about this. I would like to hear the story of Russians, but I do know from the ukrainian side, like the grandmas, I love grandmas. They told me stories that the Russians, really, the ones that entered their villages, they really, really believe they're saving Ukraine from nazis, from nazi occupation. So they feel that there's, the Ukraine is under control of nazi organizations, and they're. They believe they're saving a country that's their brothers and sisters. So I think propaganda and I think truth is a very difficult thing to arrive in that war zone. I think in the 21st century, one of the things you realize that so much of war, even more so than in the past, is an information war. And people that just used Twitter for their I source of information might be surprised to know how much misinformation there is on Twitter, like real narratives being sold. And so it's really hard to know who to believe. And through all of that, you have to try to keep an open mind and ultimately ignore the powerful and listen to actual citizens, actual people. That's the other maybe obvious lesson is that war is waged by powerful rich people, and it's the poor people that suffer, and that's just visible time and time again. |
A | You mentioned the fact that people still enjoy food or the pleasure of cooking, or there's occasional humor, or maybe frequent humor. Jocko Willink has talked about this in warfare, and that all the elements of the human spirit and condition still emerge at various times. I find this amazing, and you and I have had conversations about this before. But the aperture of the mind, the classic story that comes to mind is the one of Viktor Frankl or Nelson Mandela. You put somebody into a small box of confinement, and some people break under those conditions, and other people find entire stories within us, centimeter of concrete that can occupy them in real stories and richness, or humor, or love, or fascination and surprise. And I find this so interesting that the mind is so adaptable. We talked about creature comforts and then lack of creature comforts and the way that we can adapt. And yet humans are always striving, it seems, or one would hope, for these better conditions to better their conditions. So as you've come back and you've been here now, back in the, in the states for how long after your trip? |
B | It depends on this podcast release, but it felt like I've never left. So practically speaking, a couple months. |
A | Okay. Yeah. And we won't be shy. We're recording this mid September. |
B | So we actually recorded this several years ago. So we're anticipating the future. |
A | This is where we're gonna start talking. This is a simulation, you and Joe. I'm still trying to figure out what that actually means. I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, athletic greens. Athletic greens, now called ag one, is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that covers all of your foundational nutritional needs. I've been taking athletic greens since 2012, so I'm delighted that they're sponsoring the podcast. The reason I started taking athletic greens and the reason I still take athletic greens once or usually twice a day is that it gets me the probiotics that I need for gut health. Our gut is very important. It's populated by gut microbiota that communicate with the brain, the immune system and basically all the biological systems of our body to strongly impact our immediate and long term health. And those probiotics and athletic greens are optimal and vital for microbiotic health. In addition, athletic greens contains a number of adaptogens, vitamins and minerals that make sure that all of my foundational nutritional needs are met. And it tastes great. If you'd like to try athletic greens, you can go to athleticgreens.com Huberman and they'll give you five free travel packs that make it really easy to mix up athletic greens while you're on the road, in the car, on the plane, etcetera. And they'll give you a year's supply of vitamin D, three, k, two. Again, that's athleticgreens.com Huberman to get the five free travel packs and the year's supply of vitamin D, three, k, two. I know I speak for many people when I say that we are very happy that you're back. We know that it's not going to be the first and last trip, that there will be others and that you'll be going to Russia as well, and presumably other places as well in order to explore. And I have to say, as a podcaster and as your friend, I was really inspired that your sense of adventure and your sense of not just adventure, but thoughtful, respectful adventure, you understood what you were doing. You weren't just going there to get some wartime footage or something. This wasn't a kick, were a thrill. This was really serious and remain serious. So thank you for doing it. And please, next time you go, bring Tim Kennedy again. |
B | I feel like Tim Kennedy gets you into will take it because he really loves going to the most dangerous places and helping people. So I think he'd get me into more trouble than it's worth. And I should mention that. I mean, there's many reasons I went, but it's definitely not something I take lightly or want to do again. So I'm doing things that I don't want to do. I just feel like I have to. You're compelled, so I don't think there's. Now, I'll definitely talk about it, as we all should. There's different areas of the world that are seeing a lot of suffering. Yemen. There's so many atrocities going on in the world today, but this one is just personal to me. So I want to. I feel like I'm qualified just because of the language. So most of the talking, by the way, I've been. I was doing it was in Russian. And so because of the language, because of the. My history, I felt like I have to do this particular thing. I think it's in many ways stupid and dangerous, and that was made clear to me. But I do many things of this nature because the heart says pulls, pulls towards that. But also, there's a. There's a freedom to not. You know, I'm afraid of death, but I think there's a freedom to. It's almost like, okay, if I die, I want to take full advantage of not having a family currently. I feel like when you have a family, there's a responsibility for others, so you immediately become more conservative and careful. I feel like I want to take full advantage of this particular moment in my life when you can be a little bit more accepting of risk. |
A | Well, you should definitely reproduce at some point. Maybe before next time, you should just freeze some sperm. Really? |
B | Is that what you do with the ice bath? Is that how that works? |
A | You know, it's interesting. There's always an opportunity to do some science protocols. There are products on the Internet, and there are actually a few decent manuscripts looking at how cold exposure can increase testosterone levels. But it doesn't happen by the cold directly. Good scientists, as the authors of those papers were and are, realized that it's the vasoconstriction and then the vasodilation as people warm up again, there's increased blood flow to the testicles. And in women, it seems there's probably increased blood flow to the reproductive organs as well. After people warm back up, that seems to cause some sort of hyper nourishment of the. The various cells, the sertoli and Leydig cells of the testes that lead to increased output of testosterone. And in women, testosterone as well. So the cold exposure, in any case, is obviously, do you do the ice bath? Are you into that? |
B | I've not done that. |
A | As a Russian, you probably consider that a hot tub. |
B | Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It's a nice thing to have fun with every once in a while to warm up. No, I haven't done that. I've been kind of waiting to maybe do it together with you at some point. |
A | Great. It'll be straightforward for you. I always say that adrenaline comes in waves, and so if you just think about it, walls, like you're going through a number of walls of adrenaline, as opposed to going for time, becomes rather trivial. With your jiu jitsu background and whatnot, you'll immediately recognize the physiological sensation, even though it's cold. Specifically, it's the adrenaline that makes you want to hop out of the thing. |
B | And you've seen Joe's. So Joe set up a really nice man cave, or it's not even a cave because it's so big. It's like a network of man caves, but it has ice bath and a sauna next to each other. |
A | We have one of those here, ice bath and sauna. So we'll have to get you in it. When? One of these days. Maybe tonight, maybe tomorrow. No. Although there is a. I don't know, the underlying physiological basis, but there does seem to be a trend toward truth telling in the sauna. Some people refer to them as truth barrels. Mine's a barrel sauna shaped like a barrel. Who knows why? Maybe under intense heat duress, people just feel compelled to share. |
B | I have a complicated relationship with saunas because of all the weight cutting. |
A | Oh. |
B | And some of the deepest sufferings started to interrupt. I've done was in the sauna. That's very. It's. I mean, I've gone to some dark places in the sauna because I wrestled my whole life. Judo, jiu jitsu. And those weight cuts can really test the mind. So you're truth telling? Yeah, it's a certain kind of truth telling because you're sitting there and the clock moves slower than it has ever moved in your life. Yeah. So I usually, for the most part, I would try to, you know, have a bunch of sweats, garbage bags, and all that kind of stuff and run. It's easier because you can distract the mind in the sauna. You can't distract the mind. It's just you and all the excuses and all the weaknesses in your mind just coming to the surface, and you're just sitting there and sweating or not sweating. That's the worst. |
A | And to talk about visual aperture you're in a small box. So it also inspires some claustrophobia, even if you're not claustrophobic. That's absolutely true. And the desire to just get out of the thing is where you get a pretty serious adrenaline surge from. From in the sauna as well. It, um, now the sauna actually will, it won't deplete testosterone, but it kills sperm. So for people that sperm are on a 60 day sperm cycle. So if you're trying to donate sperm or. Cause that's what got us onto this. Or fertilize, um, an egg or eggs in whatever format, dish or in vivo, as we say in science, that. Which means, uh, well, you can look it up, folks. Um, uh, the 60 day sperm cycle. So if you go into a really hot sauna or a hot bath or a hot tub, in 60 days, those sperm are going to be. A significantly greater portion of them will be dead, will be nonviable. So there's a simple solution. People just put ice pack down there or a jar, not this jar, but a jar of cold fluid between their legs and just sit there. Or they go back and forth between the ice bath and the sauna. But if you're going to go back over there, you should freeze sperm. We're going to do a couple episodes on fertility when it's relatively inexpensive and you're young. So you should probably do it now because there is a association with autism as males get older. It's not a strong one, it's significant, but it's still a small contribution to the autism phenotype. |
B | As you age, don't sperm get wiser or. No, there's no science to back that. |
A | No, but men can conceive healthy children at a considerable age. But in any case. But no, they don't get wiser. What happens is interesting age. Well, it's a little bit like the maturation of the brain in the sense that some of the sperm get much better at swimming and then many of them get less. Good motility is a strong correlate of the DNA of the sperm. |
B | This is probably a good time to announce that I'm selling my sperm as an nfts. Let's see how much that. |
A | Oh, my goodness. |
B | Riding the. |
A | Well, your children, your future children and my future children are supposed to do jiu jitsu together, since I've only done the one jiu jitsu class. So I'm strongly vested in you having children. Yes, but only in the friendly kind of way. |
B | Well, yes, friendly competition kind of way. Yeah. Dominance of the clan. Yep, for sure. |
A | So moving on to science, but still with our minds in the Ukraine, did you encounter any scientists or see any universities or, you know, as we know in this country and in Europe and in elsewhere, science takes infrastructure. You need buildings, you need laboratories, you need robots, you need a lot of equipment, and you need -80 freezers, and you need incubators, and you need money and you need technicians. And typically, it's been the wealthier countries that have been able to do more research for sake of research and development and productization. Certainly the Ukraine had some marvelous universities and marvelous scientists. What's going on with science and scientists over there? And gosh, can we even calculate the loss of discovery that is occurring as a consequence of this conflict? |
B | So science goes on. Before the war, Ukraine had a very vibrant tech sector, which means engineering and all that kind of stuff. Kiev has a lot of excellent universities, and they still go on. The biggest hit, I would say, is not the infrastructure of the signs, but the fact because of the high morale, everybody is joining the military. So everybody is going to the front to fight, including, you know, you. Andrew Huberman would be fighting, and not because you have to, but because you want to. And everybody, you know, would be really proud that you're fighting. Even though everyone tries to convince, you know, Andrew Huberman, you have much better ways to contribute. There's deep honor in fighting for your country, yes, but there's better ways to contribute to your country than just picking up a gun that you're not that trained with and going to the front. Still, they do it. Scientists, engineers, CEO's, professors, students, men and women, actors, men and women, obviously, primarily menta, but men and women like much more than you would see in other militaries. Women are everybody. Everybody wants to fight. Everybody's proud of fighting. There's no discussion of kind of pacifism. Should we be fighting? Is this right? Is this, you know, it's. Everybody's really proud of fighting. So that's a. So there's this kind of black hole that pulls everything, all the resource into the war effort that's not just financial, but also psychological. So it's like if you're a scientist, it feels like. Well, it feels like almost like you're dishonoring humanity by continuing to do things you were doing before. There's a lot of people that converted to being soldiers. They literally watch a YouTube video of how to shoot a particular gun, how to arm a drone with a grenade. You know, if you're a tech person, you know how to work with drones. So you're going to use that. Use whatever skills you got, figure out whatever skills you got and how to use them to help the effort on the front. And so that's a big hit. But that said that, you know, I've talked to a lot of folks in Kiev, faculty primarily in the tech economics space. So I didn't get a chance to interact with folks who are on the biology, chemistry, neuroscience side of things, but that still goes on. So one of the really impressive things about Ukraine is that they're able to maintain infrastructure, like road, food supply, all that kind of stuff, education, while the war is going on, especially in Kiev. The war started where nobody knew whether Kyiv was going to be taken by the russian forces. It was surrounded, and a lot of experts from outside were convinced that Russia would take Kyiv, and they didn't. And one of the really impressive things as a leader, one of the things I really experienced is that a lot of people criticized Zelenskyy. Before the war, he only had about, like, 30% approval rate. A lot of people didn't like Zelensky. But one of the great things he did as a leader, which I'm not sure many leaders would be able to do, is when Kiev was clearly being invaded, he chose to stay. His stay in the capital, everybody, all the american military, the intelligence agencies, NATO, his own staff advisors, all told him to flee, and he stayed. And so that's. I think that was a beacon, a symbol for the rest, for the universities, for science, for the infrastructure that we're staying to, and that kept the whole thing going. There's an interesting social experiment that happened, I think, for folks who are interested in sort of gun control in this country in particular, is one of the decisions they made early on, is to give guns to everybody. Semi automatics. |
A | Early on in the war. |
B | Early on in the war, yeah. So everybody got a gun. They also released a bunch of prisoners from prison because there was no staff to keep the prisons running. And so there's a very interesting psychological experiment of, like, how is this gonna go? Everybody has a gun. Are they gonna start robbing places? Are they going to start taking advantage of a chaotic situation? And what happened is that crime went to zero. So it turned out that this, as an experiment, worked wonderfully. |
A | That's a case where love generalized. |
B | Yes. |
A | Or at least hate did not. We don't know if it's love or it's sort of lack of initiative for self, you know, common culture directed hate. |
B | Yeah, I don't. Right. It's. I think that's very correct to say that it wasn't hate that was unifying people. It was love of country, love of community. It's the, probably the same thing that will happen to humans when, like, aliens invade. It's. We're all. It's a, it's the common effort. Everybody puts everything else to the side, plus just the. The sheer amount of guns, similar to, like, Texas. You realize, like, well, there's going to be a self correcting mechanism very quickly because the rule of law was also put aside. Right? Like, basically, the police force lost a lot of power because everybody else has guns, and they're kind of taking the law into their own hands. And that system, at least in this particular case, in this particular moment in human history, worked. It's an interesting lesson. You know? |
A | It is. I had an interesting contrast that I'll share with you because you mentioned Texas. So not so long ago, I was in Austin. I often visit you or others in Austin, as you know, and many doors that I walked past, including a school, said, no firearms past this point, as a sticker on the door. You see this on hospitals sometimes. I saw this at Baylor College of Medicine, et cetera. Relatively common to see in Texas, not so common in California. And then I flew to the San Francisco Bay Area. I was walking by an elementary school in my old neighborhood and saw a similar sticker and looked at it, and it said, no peanuts or other allergy containing foods past this point on the door of this elementary school. So quite a different contrast. Like, you know, guns and peanuts. Now, peanut allergies, obviously are very serious for some people, although there's great research out of Stanford showing that early exposure to peanuts can prevent the allergies. But don't start rubbing yourself in peanut butter, folks. If you have a peanut allergy, that's not the best way to deal with it. In any case, the contrast of what's dangerous, the contrast of the familiarity with guns versus no familiarity in Israel and elsewhere. You see machine guns in the airport. In Germany, Frankfurt, you see machine guns in the airport. Not so common in the United States. So again, I feel like there's this aperture of vision. There's this aperture of pleasures versus creature comforts and lack of creature comforts, and then there's this aperture of danger. Right? People who are familiar with guns are familiar with people coming in and setting their firearm on the table and eating dinner. But if you're not accustomed to that, it's jarring, right? |
B | I should mention people know this throughout human history, but the human ability to get assimilated. No. Get used to violence is incredible. So, like, you could be living in a peaceful time, like, we're here now, and there will be one explosion, like a 911 type of situation. That'd be a huge shock. It's terrifying. Everybody freaks out. The second one is a huge drop off in how you freaked out. You get. And in a matter of days, sometimes hours, it becomes the normal. I've talked to so many people in Kharkiv, which is one of the towns that's seen a lot of heated battle. You ask them, is it safe there? In fact, when I went to the closer and closer to the war zone, you asked people, is it safe? And their answer is usually, yeah, it's pretty safe. |
A | It's all signal to noise. |
B | Nobody has told me except western reporters sitting in the west side of Ukraine. It's really dangerous here. Everyone's like, yeah, you know, it's good. Like, my uncle just died yesterday. Like, he was shot. But it's pretty, you know, it's pretty good. Like, the farm's still running. Like they. How do I put it? They focus on the positive. That's one. But it's. There's a deeper truth there, which is you just get used to difficult situations, and the stuff that make you happy and the stuff that make you upset is relative to that new normal that you establish. |
A | I grew up in California, and there were a lot of earthquakes. I remember the 89 quake. I remember the embarcadero freeway pancaking on top of people and cars. I remember I moved to southern California. There's a north ridge quake. Wherever I move, there seem to be earthquakes. I never worry about earthquakes, ever. I just don't. In fact, I don't like the destruction they cause. But every once in a while, an earthquake will roll through, and it's kind of exciting. It sounds like a train coming through. It's like, wow, the earth is moving, you know? Again, I don't want anyone to get harmed, but I enjoy a good rumble coming through nonetheless. It signal the noise. But if I saw a tornado freak out and people from the Midwest are probably comfortable with, you know, Dan Gable, the great wrestler for the Midwest, you know, and I've never met, but I have great respect for. He's probably, you know, he's a tornado. Like, ah, yeah, maybe, you know. You know, so. So I think signal to noise is real before I neglect, although I won't forget. Speaking of signal to noise and environment, you are returning to, or have gone back to, one of your original natural habitats, which is the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, which is. It's actually difficult to pronounce in full MIT. Right. So you've been spending some time there teaching and doing other things. Tell us what you're up to with MIT recently. |
B | Well, it's. I'm really glad that you, being on the west coast, know the difference in, like, Boston, New York. I feel like a lot of people think it's like the east coast. |
A | It's very different, especially to Bostonians and New Yorkers. Oh, my goodness. |
B | Yeah, I love it. I get, I gave lectures there in front of an in person crowd. |
A | What were you talking about for the AI? |
B | So different aspects of AI and, you know, robotics, machine learning. Machine learning. So for people who know the artificial intelligence field, they usually don't use the term AI, and people from outside use AI. The biggest breakthroughs in the machine learning field was some discussion of robotics and so on. Yeah, it was. In person, it was wonderful. I'm a sucker for that. I really avoided teaching or any kind of interaction during COVID because people put a lot of emphasis on, but also got comfortable with remote teaching. And I think nobody enjoyed it, except sort of, there's a notion that it's much easier to do because you don't have to, you know, you don't have to travel, you don't have to. You can do it in your pajamas kind of thing, but when you actually get to do it, you don't get the same kind of joy that you do when you're teaching as a student. You don't get the same kind of joy of learning. It's not as effective and all that kind of stuff. So to be in person together with people, to see their eyes, to get their excitement, to get the questions and all the interactions, that was awesome. And I'm still a sucker and a believer in the ideal of MIT, of the university. I think it's an incredible place. There's something in the air still, but it really hits a. The pandemic hit universities hard, because, and I can say this, this is not you saying it, this is me saying it, that administrations, as in all cases when people criticize institutions, the pandemic has given more power to the administration and taken away power from the faculty and the students, and that's from everybody involved, including the administration. That's a concern because the university is about the teachers and the students that should be primary. And whenever you have a pandemic, there's an opportunity to increase the amount of rules. Like, one of the things that really bothered me, and I'll screen from the top of the MIT dome. About this is they've instituted a new Tim ticket system, which is if you're a visitor to the campus at MIT, you have to register. You have to, first of all, show that you're vaccinated. But more importantly, there's a process to visiting. You need to get permission to visit. One of the reasons I loved MIT. Unlike some other institutions, MIT just leaves the door open to anyone. In classrooms, you can roll in the ridiculous characters. The students that are kind of, like, usually doing business stuff or economics can roll into a physics class and just, you know, you're kind of not allowed, but it's a gray area. So you. That you let that happen, and that creates a flourishing of the community. That was beautiful. And I think adding extra rules puts a squeeze on it, limits some of the flourishing, and I hope some of that dissipates over time as we kind of let go of the risk aversion that was created by the pandemic. As we kind of enter the new, the normal return back, some of that flourishing can happen. But when you're actually in there with the students. Yeah, it was magic. I love it. I love it. |
A | Well, some of your earliest videos on your YouTube channel were of you in the classroom. Right? That's how this all started. |
B | Yeah. Yeah. That's how YouTube, like, putting stuff on YouTube was terrifying. Right. |
A | Well, especially at the time when you did it again. You're a pioneer in that sense. You did that. Jordan Peterson did that. Putting up lectures is. Yeah, I would. I teach still every winter I teach, direct a course, and I'll be doing even more teaching going forward. But the idea of those videos being on the web is. Yeah, that spikes my cortisol a little bit. |
B | Yeah, it's terrifying because you get to. And everybody has a different experience. Like, for me, being a junior research scientist, the, the kind of natural concern is like, who am I? I mean, when I was given this lecture, it's like, I don't deserve any of this. |
A | That's your humility coming through. And I actually think that humility on the part of an instructor is good because those that think that they are entitled and who else could give this lecture, then I worry more. I think it's. I once heard, I don't know if it's still true that the. At Caltech. Right. The greatest of California Institute of Technology not far from here, that many of the faculty are actually afraid of the students. Not physically afraid, but they're intellectually afraid because the students are so smart and teaching there can be downright frightening, I've heard. But that's great. Keeps everybody on their toes. And I think I've been corrected in lecture before at Stanford and elsewhere, when my lab was at UC San Diego, where someone will say, hey, wait, you know, last lecture you said this, and now you said that, and we're on the podcast, you know, and I think it's that moment where you sometimes feel that urge to defend and you go, oh, you're right. And I think it depends on how one was trained. My graduate advisor was wonderful at saying, I don't know, all the time. And she went to Harvard, Radcliffe, UCSF, and Caltech, and brilliant woman, and had no problem saying, like, I don't know. |
B | I don't have that problem. So I usually have two guys that somebody speaks up, grab them, drag him out of the room, never see him again. So everybody is really supportive. I don't understand the amount of love and support I get is, especially when. |
A | The last few students are there and everybody seems to be nodding as you're going, no, I think that I'd love to sit in on one of your lectures. I know very little about AI, machine learning, or robotics. |
B | Have you ever talked at MIT? Have you ever given lectures? |
A | Oh, yeah. When I went on the job market as a faculty member, my final two choices were between MIT Pcower, I had an on paper offer, wonderful place. Wonderful place to do neuroscience, and UC San Diego, which is a wonderful neuroscience program. In the end, it made sense for me beyond the west coast for personal reasons. But there's some amazing neuroscience going on there. Goodness. And that's always been true, and it's going to continue. It's been a long time since I've been invited back there. Oddly enough, when I started doing more podcasting, and I still run a lab, but I shrunk my lab considerably when I was doing. As I've done more podcasting, I've received fewer academic lecture invites, which makes sense, but now they're sort of coming back. And so when people invite now, I always say, do you want me to talk about the ventral thalamus and its role in anxiety and aggression, or do you want me to talk about the podcast? And my big fear is I'm going to go back to give a lecture about the retina or something, and I'll start off with an athletic greens read or something like that, just reflexively. Just kidding. That wouldn't happen. But listen, I think it's great to continue to keep a foot in both places. I was so happy to hear that you're teaching at MIT, because podcasting is one thing, teaching is another, and there's overlap there in the Venn diagram. But listen, the students that get to sit in on one of your lectures, and you may see me sitting there in the audience soon when I creep into your class sunglasses. That's right, wearing a red shirt, you won't recognize me. Well, are certainly receiving a great gift. I've watched your lectures on YouTube, even the early ones, and listen, I know you to be a phenomenal teacher. |
B | Yeah, there's something about. So I'm also doing, like I said, I'm pretty late last night working for a deadline on a paper. One of the things that I hope to do for hopefully the rest of my life is to continue publishing. And I think it's really important to do that, even if you continue the podcast, because you want to be just on your own intellectual and scientific journey as you do podcasting, at least for me, and especially on the engineering side, because I want to build stuff. And I think that keeps your ego in check, keeps you humble, because I think if you talk too much on a microphone, you start getting, you might lose track of the grounding that comes from engineering and from science and the scientific process and the criticisms that you get, all that kind of stuff, and. |
A | How slow and iterative it is. We have two papers right now that are in the revision stage. It's been a very long road. And I was asked this recently because I met with my chairman. He said, do you want to continue run a lab or you're just going to go full time on the podcast? And Stanford has been very supportive of, must say, as I know MIT has been a view. And I said, oh, I absolutely want to continue to be involved in research and do research. And we start talking about these papers and we're looking over my, this was my yearly review. And looking back, like, goodness, these papers have been in play for a very long time. So it's a long road, but you learn more and more, and the more time you spend myopically looking at a bunch of data, the more you learn and the more you think. I totally agree. Talking to these devices for podcasts is wonderful because it's fun. It relieves a certain itch that we both have, and hopefully it lands some important information out there for people. But doing research is like the, I guess if you know, you know, there's like the unpeeling of the onion, knowing that there could be something there. There's just nothing like it. |
B | I mean, you do, especially with the pandemic. And for me, both Twitter and the podcast have made me much more impatient about the slowness of the review process because Twitter will do that. Twitter will do. But even with podcasts, you have a cool. You'll find something cool, and then you have ideas and you'll just say them and they'll be out pretty quickly. |
A | We do a post right now about something that we both found interesting, and it's out in the world. Yep. |
B | And you can write up something like, there is a culture in computer science of posting stuff on archives and preprints that don't get in your review. And sometimes they don't even go through the review process ever, because people just start using them. If it's code and it's like, what's the point of this? It works. It's self evident that it works because people are using it. And that, I think, applies more to engineering fields because it's an actual tool that works. It doesn't matter if it. You don't have to scientifically prove that it works, works. It works. It's using for a lot of people. |
A | Well, sorry to interrupt, but just for point of reference, the famous paper describing the double helix, which earned Watson and Crick the Nobel Prize and should have earned Rosalind Franklin Nobel Prize, too, of course. But they got it for the structure of DNA. Of course, that paper was never reviewed at nature. They published it because its importance was self evident, or whatever they said. |
B | So, like the editors, it was that. |