[ Author: Letterboxd; Title: Podcast transcripts; Tags: podcast, chat, movies ]
SLIM: Hello and welcome to The Letterboxd Show a podcast about movies from Letterboxd: the social network for film lovers. Each episode host Gemma and Slim—that's me—will be joined by Letterboxd friends for discussion about their top four on Letterboxd, the four movies you choose as your favorite films on your Letterboxd profile. It's an opportunity to learn more about the community and add new movies to your watchlist. We'll have links in the episode notes to the movies, lists and profiles we talk about so you can follow along too.
GENMA: And we'll be having a revolving cast of friends on the show. Filmmakers, podcasters comedians and normal people just like me and you, Slim, who love to sit down and watch a movie and log it on letterboxd. This episode, to ease us in and introduce you to your new hosting duo, we are talking with each other! And in future episodes, you'll be hearing from us a lot. So we wanted to share how we connect with movies.
SLIM: Gemma's top four includes: A Room With a View from 1985. She writes in her review, "it's a cast that just keeps on getting more perfect as their careers roll on."
GENMA: Slim's top four includes: Robocop from 1987. His review says, "turn this movie into a white powder so I can snort it." I love that. (Slim laughs) It's perfect. Now—on with the show.
SLIM: We're here. Gemma, hello.
GENMA: Hello Slim!
SLIM: The new season of The Letterboxd Show and the first thing that jumped into my mind was since we're gonna be talking about our top fours, were you feeling excitement or extreme dread knowing that you might have to watch Vanilla Sky ahead of this recording since it's in my top four?
GENMA: I am going to be deeply honest with you. I have an aversion to Tom Cruise at the best of times.
SLIM: Can't believe this is the first and last episode of the new season. (Gemma laughs)
GENMA: That's all folks, thank you very much! (Slim laughs) And I think this is something that we've only just realized about each other and maybe this was a terrible idea. (Slim laughs)
SLIM: Literally the first conversation we have on the show about our diametrically opposed views on the actor known as Tom Cruise.
GENMA: Let me just say I am team Nicole.
SLIM: Okay. (Slim & Gemma laugh) I mean, that also just paints a view of this podcast for the listeners and maybe that's a positive.
GENMA: Maybe in the end. We've got team Nicole, we've got team Tom. This is gonna affect all guests we invite on for the future.
SLIM: I was thinking before we dig in to kind of the actual content of the show, our top fours. Maybe we talk about how we got to this point together. You know, I've often said that Letterboxd is personally my favorite social media site. And it inspired a podcast about movies I do called 70mm. Also, like many people, I just like to veg out and watch movies whether that be in a movie theater, or on my phone. God forbid, I'll watch a movie on my phone. I don't care.
GENMA: The way Scorsese intended. (Slim laughs)
SLIM: That's right. And it'll be whatever movie that pops across my feed. It could be a bad horror movie, it could be a Jean-Claude Van Damme movie on Tubi, that I'll sit down and watch if it autoplays. But everyone has, you know, this ability to list their top four on Letterboxd and it's kind of a cool, unique insight into that person and how they connect with movies. But what's your vibe with the top four itself on Letterboxd? I think everyone has kind of their own opinion on it.
GENMA: Yeah, I mean, I was thinking about this from the perspective of, for example, the Letterboxd couple, the Mank couple. And you know, if you're looking for love and you think that Letterboxd might be one of the ways in which you could do that, I imagine that top four information could come more in handy then "good sense of humor, likes walks in the park" which feels very generic. Whereas, you know, saying "these are my four favorite movies" is a bit more information about a person and a bit more insight into their personality, potentially their generation. But also, I don't know, it's the most prominent part of your Letterboxd profile right? So whether it's that you just a pure, unadulterated cinema lover, or a next level cinephile who likes to show off. When you're setting up your profile, it's kind of the first thing we ask members to do when they're joining Letterboxd for the first time. Some people use it to show off their most recent favorite fours. And others list only one film in all four spots, which I kind of love. And I'm definitely on the hunt for one of those for an episode of this. And then there are the people who never changed theirs, which I'm totally guilty of.
SLIM: You were saying how you might not have even changed yours since 2011.
GENMA: I have changed one film in my top four, I think, since I joined Letterboxd ten years ago.
SLIM: Geeze.
GENMA: But, Paddington pull was too strong to no longer have a Paddington movie in my top four.
SLIM: Paddington is maybe the most magnetic individual ever put on screen. Once you experience the magic of Paddington, there's no going back.
GENMA: There is no going back. And Paul King has cotton socks—or whatever fiber—in his socks. (Slim laughs) He has done the movie world and families everywhere and darkest bear from darkest Peru fans everywhere, the most magnificent favor by bringing Paddington to the screen.
SLIM: God bless.
GENMA: Yeah, and I think—can we talk about Paddington yet? (Slim & Gemma laugh)
SLIM: We can get into Paddington. So we have ahead of this episode, you know, I think we both went back and we looked at each other's top four. That's kind of the idea of this show. We want to talk with people in the community, filmmakers, podcast hosts, comedians, about their top four. Learn more about what made them choose that. What kind of memories they have watching those films. The kind of feelings that you get when thinking about your top four. I think we kind of saw that a little bit or heard it a little bit when you were talking about yours. I think evokes a strong feeling when someone asks you "What's your top four?" You kind of like throw your head back, like "Oh my god. Yeah! Can't wait to think about this." So we went and kind of watched each other's top fours. And we talked a little bit about Tom. Tom Cruise, the Tom Cruise.
GENMA: We talked enough about Tom. (Slim laughs) We have talked enough.
SLIM: We've already passed the Vanilla Sky segment already in my top four. But your top four, I hadn't seen three of the four before.
GENMA: And I hadn't seen—I thought I had seen Robocop out of your top four. But then I just realized that I was thinking about Judge Dredd and I'm just gonna own that right now. (Gemma & Slim laugh)
SLIM: Very interesting combination of two films. Sylvester Stallone and Judge Dredd. My god. Didn't like Versace design the costumes and Judge Dredd?
GENMA: Well, if that's true, that is that is a genius crossover right there, for fashion and film.
SLIM: it is. It is. Probably the best part about that movie. But that's neither here nor there.
GENMA: Also a nice New Zealand connection with our own Karl Urban taking on the role again more recently.
SLIM: Oh, that's right. Yeah, I forgot about the new one.
GENMA: Yeah, so I guess should we tell our lovely listeners our top fours so they know what's coming in the conversation?
SLIM: Let's hear it.
GENMA: Okay. So, Slim, your top four.
SLIM: My top four—I need everyone to just get ready for this top four. This is as explanatory as you can get about me. My number one—which we don't have to get into anymore. Tom Cruise, Cameron Crowe's Vanilla Sky. There's a story behind that. Maybe for another day, we can get into that.
GENMA: Okay, I'm gonna let you tell that story. Just maybe in about 20 minutes. (Slim laughs)
SLIM: Next on my list is Robocop. The OG Robocop film. Paul Verhoeven classic. Next on my list, Martin Scorsese's Casino.
GENMA: I'm so curious about why that Scorsese and I cannot wait to ask you.
SLIM: A lot of fond memories. And my final one, which is a recent addition, this movie actually pushed out North by Northwest. Alfred Hitchcock got pushed out for Ninja III: The Domination. Sam Furstenberg, I think is the director of that movie. So maybe in a little bit, we'll get into that. But what's your top four?
GENMA: Well, I just wanted to say before we move on from North by Northwest. (Slim & Gemma laughs) That you've been on Letterboxd since 2015 according to your account.
SLIM: Oh really? Rumors?
GENMA: According to rumours. According to data available to me at this time. And my favorite review of yours is from March 2015. And it is of Alfred Hitchcock's North by Northwest and it says "Carrie's pants height inspires me to this day." (Slim laughs) And as a fan of the high waisted pant—which will be discussed when we get to Strictly Ballroom, one of my top four. I just want to say, thank you.
SLIM: He's a vision in that movie, everything he does in that movie, he's like a fashion icon in my opinion.
GENMA: It's extraordinary. I mean, you know, he's a mad man. He's a madman. (Slim laughs) He should be—he should be cutting a sharp figure in that cornfield. Okay, my top four. And I want—does this say a lot about me? I guess it sort of does. Yes? Yeah. Okay, we've got A Room With a View, the great Merchant Ivory 1980s period classic. From a novel by E.M. Forster. We have Strictly Ballroom, the very first feature film by Baz Luhrmann and his regular collaborators. Craig Pierce, his co-writer. Katherine Martin, the amazing CM, production designer. And the first of what they call the red curtain trilogy, which includes Romeo + Juliet and Moulin Rouge.
SLIM: Oh! Didn't even know that.
GENMA: Strictly Ballroom, yes, deeply Australian. And then we have the great, the mighty Paddington. Paddington 1, I might add. I didn't even think about whether it was going to be Paddington 2, which is more highly rated, but we'll get to that. And then finally, Jane Campion's awesome, erotic thriller set in New York starring Meg Ryan—America's sweetheart—in a super sexy role (Slim laughs) as Frannie, and that is In the Cut.
SLIM: Yeah, I didn't even know that movie existed until I heard you talking about on a previous Letterboxd Show episode in the past. Totally new to me.
GENMA: Yeah, see?
SLIM: Let's see. So where should we start first?
GENMA: Let's start with A Room with a View. And I'll explain the reason that it's number one in the pack, it's because it's got a beautiful backdrop. So when I started at Letterboxd, and that, I was gonna say, the reason you're here is because you host the great 70mm pod but also Letterboxd is your favorite social network and you're a podcasting genius. And that's awesome. The reason I'm here is because I'm paid to be, it's my job. (Slim laughs) But more than that, I have known the lovely chaps who invented Letterboxd for quite a long time, and was one of the beta users back when they first launched and sent a message ad to the closest nearest and dearest and said "please join our thing we made and let us know how to improve it." And so the tight knit filmmaking community of New Zealand jumped on board to help them out. And when they started introducing the beautiful feature of having a backdrop on your profile for Patron and Pro level members—wait is that Pro level? Patron?
SLIM: It's Patron.
GENMA: God, I don't even know our own roles! (Slim laughs)
SLIM: Just Patron.
GENMA: Patron members get a beautiful backdrop of the movie that is first in their queue. And I just wanted on my profile the backdrop of one of the best, most romantic kisses in big screen cinema history, which has between Lucy Honeychurch and George Emerson Jr. in that field, up that hill, in A Room with a View. Yeah, in fairness, it is definitely in my top five most viewed movies of all time. I watched it again this week in preparation for this. And probably hadn't actually watched it for a good ten years. But before that, it was definitely a film that I would rent very, very often from the video store. Whenever it would land on TV, I just dropped everything and watch it.
SLIM: Did you read the book first?
GENMA: No, I never read the book first. I did eventually read the book in the nineties at some point and adored her closely at Hughes. Look, I'm just gonna explain what happens. For anyone who hasn't seen A Room with a View. Lucy Honeychurch—now this is the thing, this is a cast to absolutely die for.
SLIM: Huge cast.
GENMA: Lucy Honeychurch who is played by the great Helena Bonham Carter and she's young in this. She's just a wee young and cute thing. She goes with her mother's cousin Charlotte Bartlett or 'poor, poor Charlotte' as she comes to be known in the film, who is played by the great—now Dame—Maggie Smith to Florence where they stay for weeks at a Pensione with a view of the Arno. Except Lucy and Poor Charlotte do not have a view of the Arno.
***
GENMA: Until George Emerson Sr.—the wonderful Denholm Elliott—and George Emerson Jr.—the incredibly handsome in 1985 Julian Sands—offer to swap rooms so Lucy and Charlotte can have a view. It's a trip to the countryside. George Emerson Jr. shouts "beauty!" from a tree. There's one of the dreamiest, most sudden kisses ever in the history of cinema. Everyone has sworn to secrecy—especially cousin shallots gossipy new friend, trashy novelist, Eleanor Lavish—who is played by Dame Judi Dench, who many movie viewers these days would know as the sort of the brilliant kindly Judi Dench, she's just this—yeah, she's popping off as a gossipy novelist. She's brilliant. And then we're back in England, where Lucy Honeychurch is suddenly engaged to Daniel Day Lewis! Duh. Duh. Duh.
SLIM: When he appeared on screen, I didn't even know he was in this movie.
GENMA: I want to know what your reaction was.
SLIM: I loved him in this. I mean, first of all, Helena Bonham Carter, I think this is the youngest I've ever seen her in a movie. I didn't realize how vast her catalog was. But man, Daniel Day Lewis.
GENMA: I know.
SLIM: In another world in this role and more people should talk about this.
GENMA: It is wild. He plays Cecil Vyse, who is quite buttoned-up or buttoned-down—buttoned-up. (Slim laughs) And it's also got not one but two manic-pixie-dream boys! Not just Julian Sands but also the wonderful Freddy, Lucy Honeychurch's little brother.
SLIM: Oh yeah.
GENMA: You know, it's Dames Judi and Maggie absolutely going at it and they're just chewing it up. And then two brilliant, very different portraits of religious men, the very uptight vicar in Florence and in the wonderful Simon Callow who gets his kit off in a scene that surely by now I must have made it to your Man Ass list.
SLIM: I did. I instantly once the skinny-dipping scene hit I was like oh my god, this is a whole lot of man ass that I need to add. It's not just man ass, it's man front as well. It's a long scene, I was thinking, this is a long scene. And then it went kind of like joke aspect of like, this is a great scene. And then I was like, holy crap. This is a long scene. And then it just like kept going. I was like, oh this is a great scene. (Slim laughs) It went long enough to the point where it circled back. It was a lot of fun. There's the three of them having fun in that, you know, that little spot of water and then them walking out and catching them. I thought it was hilarious.
GENMA: So brilliant. I feel like that Pride & Prejudice scene where Colin Firth rises out of the water and his white shirt that's, you know, sticking to his pecks gets a lot of airtime and the skinny dipping in the lake scene in A Room with a View does not end and ought to get more airtime. (Slim laughs)
SLIM: Yeah, it's funny, I posted a photo on my Instagram of Daniel Day Lewis. And I got a bunch of people were like A Room with a View? You watching A Room with a View right now? And I had never seen this movie before. But it just like brought out so many of my friends that were like, "Oh my god, I can't wait to rewatch this. It's been so long since I've seen it myself." So really opened up something this viewing.
GENMA: I'm delighted to have brought it to you. And I would say that in the great Merchant Ivory productions. It's the one—it's the most fun one. I mean, Maurice is a classic in terms of portrayal of queer love in extremely repressed English times. Howards End is just dreary. It's just dreary. I'm not I'm not a fan. It doesn't matter that it's the absolute bomb cast of Anthony Hopkins and Emma Thompson. I don't care. I watched it once. I'll never see it again. But A Room with a View it's just got all the things in it. It's got this killer cast that only gets better. You know, the more the more we know about what they've gone on to do. But it's ridiculous and delightful and endlessly quotable. And also—dare I say it—horny.
SLIM: I'm glad I watched it and it was a lot of fun.
GENMA: I'm glad you watched it too.
SLIM: Which one of mine should we talk about? My top four, are we ready for this? This is a big shift here. We're going from A Room with a View to—well, you just got finished Casino. Maybe we should jump into Casino. It's fresh in your mind.
GENMA: Yeah. And I feel like it exists in a similarly heightened world? (Gemma laughs)
SLIM: Very heightened, very heightened. More drugs and I think money flowing around. Casino, Martin Scorsese, Robert De Niro. I was trying to think back, I actually used to work in a video store growing up, I used to work in a West Coast Video chain. And it was the greatest job of all time. Working in a video store. there's literally nothing better, except for the pay. The pay was terrible. But you get to pretty much watch movies all day, you get to talk movies all day. It's the dream.
GENMA: I have a question.
SLIM: Yeah.
GENMA: I never worked in a video store. I did however, spend a lot of time in video stores as a teenager with my friends. And when a group of friends will come in on a Friday, could you just tell that they were gonna walk around around around for half an hour and then just pick the same movie again as they did the last Friday and the last Friday and the last Friday? (Slim laughs)
SLIM: What was worse is that we could probably predict when someone had a late fee. Late fees are like a totally foreign concept now where people didn't bring a movie back. And they had maybe like $70 in late fees on their account. Like just the idea of not returning a movie and being charged almost $100 because it was late is just such a crazy idea to sell out now.
GENMA: Now it is, yeah.
SLIM: But that was a fun experience. And Casino was one of the movies that I think I took home one night, and I watched for the first time and it might have been probably my earliest introduction to Scorsese at that time. So this was maybe before GoodFellas. So a lot of people—a lot of people like me, a lot of dudes like me—hold GoodFellas up into really crazy high esteem, but Casino is the one that I really love.
***
SLIM: I loved De Niro's character in this movie. I loved how Scorsese shot the casino itself. I love the kind of lighting that they pulled off in this movie. And the camera movements he has in this film, you know, around De Niro and the cast of characters are just so—I think in my Letterboxd review, I just, I said that he was just straight flexing on us for two hours plus. So I love that kind of camera work and the flexing that Marty did in this movie. Just the cast of characters with Joe Pesci as well. You know, there's so many people in this movie that I would probably just want to just watch for hours of. just to see what is going on in their crazy effed up life. Because everyone in this movie is just effed up, from drugs or love, or money. There's just so many people that are so screwed up and it's so entertaining to watch. Don Rickles is probably the less screwed up person in the entire movie. And he's amazing. (Slim laughs)
GENMA: Don Rickles, Don Rickles!
SLIM: Yeah, very quiet, sustained role in this movie. But this movie just always stands out to me as one of the most rewatchable movies that I love no matter what. It gives me the most enjoyment. And when I talk about like five star movies on Letterboxd, these are movies that I just have the best time watching. Maybe I'll give five stars to movies that are really not well made or not, you know, anywhere near someone's top ten or top 100. But if I have a really fun time watching it, I'll give that a five bagger immediately.
GENMA: Well, I was gonna say Ninja III: The Domination? (Slim laughs) Clearly not in your top four because it's in the Letterboxd top 250 of all time.
SLIM: No, that movie is maybe in the bottom 250 of all time on Letterboxd, I'm not sure. But I had so much fun watching Ninja III: The Domination. (Slim & Gemma laugh) Which is a crazy sentence probably for most people to hear out loud.
GENMA: It is. I mean, yeah, let's pivot slightly to that. And we'll come back to Casino because I want to I want to declare that it's the one film of your top four that I didn't watch because I couldn't find a legal version of it. (Slim laughs) And in my other life, I make movies and so I'm a little bit of a nerd about that stuff.
SLIM: Yeah, that is one of the things too. It's funny, I was having a conversation with I think Matthew, co-founder of Letterboxd, I was recommending a movie at some point in the past and me forgetting that US streaming capabilities is just very different outside of the US. So I think this was on Tubi, which is you know, like a free movie streaming service in the States. I'm not sure if it's international availability, but there's just so many movies like that, like American Ninja is a franchise that's on Tubi. Most of Chuck Norris' movies are on Tubi, and Steven Seagal. So that paints a picture. So a friend of mine, Chuck Foresman, the cartoonist behind the end of The End of the F***ing World, and I'm Not Okay With This. He has a podcast called BAT & SPIDER where they watch kind of like low rent movies just like. This kind of like low rent horror trash—trash in a good way. It's trash you like watching. And he mentioned Ninja III. And this had always been on my watchlist. It was this woman holding a samurai sword. And it was the third movie in a Ninja saga. And I was like, this poster is amazing. I have to see this. What is this? And it's essentially American Ninja combined with The Exorcist. And it's just one of the craziest combinations you can think of. She finds this samurai sword, this ninja sword, and it's like possessed and when she holds it, the spirit of this dead ninja that died with the sword takes over her body and she tries to kill the people that killed the ninja who died, which are like all cops. So it's just this fitness instructor from the eighties going on a ninja killing rampage against just the worst men in society.
GENMA: That actually sounds like totally my jam and I will commit to finding a copy to watch. (Slim laughs)
SLIM: I will mail you a Blu-ray of Ninja III if I have to. (Gemma laughs)
GENMA: I would love that. We do have two remaining videos doors in this country that are pretty good. (Slim laughs) I just love the slag. "He's the ultimate killer. She's the perfect weapon."
SLIM: You can't go wrong, is what we're saying people. You got to check out Ninja III if you can. And honestly, I think I probably only found the availability this movie just because of Letterboxd. I use that feature to find out where movies are streaming, like every day. I mean I have the ability to kind of like put on a movie during the day. While I'm answering emails, I'll have it in the background. So I see what's available.
GENMA: The way Scorsese intended. (Slim laughs)
SLIM: If Scorsese knew how I watched most movies, he would flip out. But that was a roundabout way of saying Casino and Ninja III could not be more different, but I love them all the same. So those are those are two of my top four.
GENMA: I did just want to say about Casino that—I'm big Scorsese fan, massive, how can you not be? But I just got to be honest and say GoodFellas and Casino, haven't watched them. And it's mainly for a really stupid dumb reason, which is I am sick of dudes talking about GoodFellas and Casino and how I have to watch them! (Slim & Gemma laugh)
SLIM: Yeah, it's like the Scarface poster in, you know, people's bedrooms. Like okay, we get it, you like Scarface. Everyone loves Scarface. (Gemma laughs) But I totally get it. Yeah.
GENMA: Yeah, maybe but yeah, congratulations, Slim. You are the dude who made me watch Casino. (Slim laughs) There was something in Casino that linked directly to Strictly Ballroom, Slim. And I don't know if you've figured out what it is.
SLIM: No, I—
GENMA: I have the screenshot receipts.
SLIM: Geeze. There's no cocaine in Strictly Ballroom that I'm aware of. So that's out the window. What was it?
GENMA: There is a sparkly gold dress that Sharon Stone wears.
SLIM: Ohhh!
GENMA: In a really beautiful scene where he's getting his award. He's getting his membership of the country club. And in Strictly Ballroom, there is a glittering sequined gold pantsuit that Scott Hastings wears when he does his own dance steps his way, which loses him his dance partner at the beginning of the film. And I just feel those two outfits together, I feel are like—
SLIM: Serendipitous. It was meant to be these two movies together in the same episode. Do you remember the first time you ever saw Strictly Ballroom?
GENMA: I wish I did. It would have been in a cinema. And it would have been with a particular group of friends when I was actually a student studying, studying film and television production. And we would have gone back to see it again that same weekend. So I don't remember the first time, because it blurs into a week where I went back probably three times to see it in the cinema.
SLIM: Wow. What makes Strictly Ballroom fit into your top four?
GENMA: Well, look Slim, first of all, have you eaten? (Slim laughs) Because if you haven't, there's some chops in the fridge. How's the bago hago? I think what I love about it, apart from the fact that it's the most quotable and best underdog sports film of all time involving ballroom dancing. It really was the first film by this group of empresarios who have gone on to make such an impact on cinema since. Written by Craig Pierce and Baz Luhrmann who were schoolmates—not schoolmates, but like studied at NIDA together, which is the National Institute for Dramatic Arts in Australia. Production designed by Katherine Martin, who has designed all of Baz Luhrmann's films and also has babies with him. Edited by Jill Bilcock, who has the absolute goat editor of Australia's film history. So much so that she's one of the few editors to have a documentary made about her, which is really cool.
SLIM: Wow.
GENMA: They went on to make Romeo + Juliet, they went on to make Moulin Rouge, The Great Gatsby, and they're currently in post production on Elvis. And so Strictly Ballroom grew out of student play that they put together in 1984. And they staged it in a few places throughout the eighties on stage, and then they found a film producer who was willing to take it to the screen. And what I love about that is as someone who has been sort of involved in all parts of the arts is the idea that, you know, on the one hand, anyone listening to this who wants to make a movie, you often keep getting told "Just pick up a camera and do it! You can do it, just pick up a camera and do it!" On the other hand, there are ideas that takes such a long time to bring to the screen. But when they brought to the screen it said exactly the right time. So if they tried to do Strictly Ballroom as a film in the eighties—which was a time when, especially in the Antipodes, in New Zealand and Australia were producing some quite sort of hardcore films. You know, like some dark, toxic masculinity takes on, you know, men alone type stuff. But the early nineties, this is a 1992 release, was sort of exactly when you had, you know, gay pride taking off in Sydney. When the soundtrack for this film became a moment and nightclubs across Australia. (Love is in the Air by John Paul Young fades in) The beautiful Love is in the Air—which is the final song for the final big ballroom sequence—was played pretty much in every queer nightclub across New Zealand and Australia as soon as this film came out. There's something about the timing that I love it about it. And it's sort of strange to look at it now and think it was hard for those people to find the money that they needed that they put together a $5 million budget and it got whittled down to 3.3. They eventually managed to make it on that pittance. And it's made $80 million worldwide. I just love that. Anyway.
SLIM: Yeah, I'd never seen this before. I don't even know if I heard the title before. This is another one of those movies that I've never seen, but in the Discord that we have for 70mm, we call it the VHS Village. It's just a community where we talks about movies. I posted my review in there and a bunch of people were like, "Oh my god, you watch Strictly Ballroom? You know, I can't believe it. Are we having a watch party for Strictly Ballroom this week in Discord?" It was like ignited that everyone had this like as one of their favorite movies. And what struck me about this movie, it's hilarious. It felt like a Waiting for Guffman esque subtle comedy about these quirky characters, just like you said. Which I was not expecting. You know, I had just rewatched Romeo + Juliet, I think this past year. So that was the kind of Baz Luhrmann in my mind. So when the funny moments in this movie were coming out, I was like oh, what's going on here? I was not expecting this. But it was a total delight. I think I gave this five stars on Letterboxd. I had an amazing time.
GENMA: Amazing time! It's so good to hear. Because it is funny. It's so funny. And it's funny because it's true. You know, the best comedy sort of comes from truth. And so, you know, one of my favorite quotes that I picked up this time around was when Scott Hastings' mother, Shirley Hastings, the great Pat Thompson, who tragically died a month before this film premiered at Cannes.
SLIM: Oh geeze.
GENMA: So not only a huge loss for their family at Strictly Ballroom, but you know, this was a career making role. And then she's gone. But there's a moment where she cries into the arms of Liz, who's, you know, another judge and the ballroom dancing scene. (Gemma cries) "He's my only son!" And it's hard to describe why that is such an emotional and extremely comical piece of dialogue. But you know, the idea that she doesn't have another son who she can train up from the age of six to win the Pan Pacifics. (Slim & Gemma laugh) And if Scott doesn't pull them together, this is the end of her career. This is the end of her dance studio. Yeah, just love that. "He's my only son!" It's so Australian.
SLIM: Is there any way better to segue into Robocop then from Strictly Ballroom, into the ultimate action adventure from the eighties? (Slim laughs) Robocop is in my top four. I think this was probably, you know, on local television in Philadelphia at the time. You know, PHL-17 was a station that would play, you know, edited action movies. Robocop, obviously eighties dystopian future where the large corporations of our day have taken over the police department, just about everything. So we're not too far away from that today, depending on who you ask. But Peter Weller is the titular Robocop, and he kind of has to battle to find himself. (music from Robocop fades in) And this is just one of those movies I think I saw when I was younger, way too young, way too violent. Where, when I saw it as a kid, I thought it was just this really fun action movie—violence. I saw a robot cop, you know, just like shooting bad guys, driving a car. I was like, oh my god, this is really cool. And then as an adult, you watch it again. And I'm starting to kind of like, peel back layers of the kind of absurdity of the film. About how insane it is, about how this corporation owns these places. And we're kind of rooting for this police officer cyborg. And then you watch it a few more times, and I just feel like this is a movie that had no right to be a success whatsoever. This could have easily been maybe the end of Verhoeven's career at this point. You know, you're gambling in 1987, turning this guy into a cyborg and fighting crime. And it ends up being this really subversive classic that is so fun—at least for me—to rewatch and enjoy time after time. And he went on to do it a few more times. He did Total Recall, he had Starship Troopers. And he's got this amazing catalog after that.
GENMA: And he's got a film at Cannes this year.
SLIM: And that movie looks amazing too!
GENMA: It look incredible, he's still going.
SLIM: I also just watched Basic Instinct for the second time in a very long time this past year, which I thought was amazing.
GENMA: I have not seen it since my first time.
SLIM: Still holds up. Also is other movie, Elle. Have you seen Elle? Holy moly.
GENMA: I have not seen Elle. When it comes to Verhoeven, I am basically a Showgirls, girl. I don't know why. (Slim laughs)
SLIM: Showgirls was the reason why I created the Man Ass list in the first place on Letterboxd. Kyle McLachlan is in Showgirls, and what I presume is a stunt double—like a stunt ass—steps across the screen, and it is probably one of the most supple assets I have ever seen in a movie! (Slim laughs) I was like, stunned. I was like, Holy God, that is an ass! And I had to make a Letterboxd list right away. I was like, I need a list of the best man asses in movies. But it's literally, it's Showgirls and everything else in my opinion. Do you remember that ass? Do you remember the scene I'm talking about?
GENMA: I do, yes, we've talked about this before. (Slim laughs) I mean, who can not remember that ass? Who can not remember that ass? Since we're talking about ass in Verhoeven films, can we talk about boobs in Verhoeven films?
SLIM: Let do it. Let's get into it.
GENMA: Because I had a really interesting reaction to Robocop—and this was my first, as I said, I honestly thought that it was, you know, in the Judge Dredd universe and it turns out how wrong I was. How wrong. And of course, I have seen many memes and gifs involving the Robocops themselves. But had never watched the film from front to end. And aside from all of the reasons you love it—all of which I agree with—I had a really interesting reaction to Officer Lewis and the portrayal of women in this movie. Because I realized as I was watching that my sort of Hollywood expectations as a movie viewer—I was expecting certain things to happen that didn't. I was expecting—and don't get me wrong, Lewis and Murphy have great chemistry, which is part and parcel of buddy cops, you know, cop partners. You have to have good chemistry as your work husband and your work wife, right? But because of the ways in which Hollywood has written these films for decades, I was expecting them to get together. I was expecting in an Verhoeven movie to see a lot of unnecessary breasts. Like even in that beautiful memory of his wife coming toward them in the bedroom and saying, "I've got to tell you something!" When we finally get to see that memory play out in full, I was expecting you to just open her gown and there are the boobs. Something about Verhoeven, something about the eighties, something about cop movies. I was just fully expecting unnecessary, gratuitous, random boobage. Instead, we get that incredible scene near the beginning of the film, where the cops are in a multi-gender, locker room. So they're all in there, we see some man ass in the showers, all getting dressed. And we see officer Lewis and other officers just getting their clothes off and suiting up, putting on their bulletproof vests. And it is not sexual. And it is super straightforward. And it is completely functional and part of the cop work. And it is also very much of the Verhoeven universe, right?
SLIM: Yeah, yeah.
GENMA: It's like in the havens world, all cops regardless of gender, in the same changing room, putting on their bulletproof vests. And I loved it! I just deeply had a moment of deep appreciation for the Verhoeven's very European vibe around the body and its functionality in this scenario.
SLIM: It's funny you say that. I have like a giant making of hardcover for Robocop and it goes into detail. I think this is probably I'd like my first introduction to that—like you said, the European sensibility. I think for a Verhoeven is Dutch and is very, you know, comfortable in nudity. And this is probably, growing up, this is my first introduction to that. Like seeing kind of unisex locker rooms. You know, as a kid, you're like, whoa, what is going on here? This doesn't make any sense! And it happens again in Starship Troopers. And it's just normal. It's like, the human body is normal. And, you know, it's a part of life. And it's kind of like an American thing, where we've kind of vilified the nipple, or you know, any nudity of the sort. And this is 1987. And he kind of kept that up in some of his other science fiction films and it's just one of those things.
GENMA: Yeah, I love it. It's just one of those things. It's just so great to see the breast non sexualized.
SLIM: Also, Nancy Allen in this movie is incredible!
GENMA: Ah, I love her!
SLIM: Her character is unbelievable. Unfortunately, it kind of—she doesn't get to be the amazing Lewis that she is in this movie. And I think it kind of goes off of a little bit of a cliff slowly until Three. But man, the potential was there for her to just to continue to be kind of the ultimate cop in this franchise. So I really do appreciate her in this and what we did get in Robocop One.
GENMA: Oh, yeah. I love it. It's time to just talk for a few minutes about Paddington, I think.
SLIM: Yes.
GENMA: Because this is—ah, I mean, one of my great loves, when it comes to movies is when animation and real life meet and marry into a perfect union. It's a long time since I've seen Who Framed Roger Rabbit, but I remember loving it as a kid when I first saw it. Didn't bother what the new Tom and Jerry. And love, big fan of Mary Poppins, and I would put Paddington and the same camp. Even though he's rendered as a realistic bear. He's still, you know, some kind of animation in there. And it's just so you know, I would approach a movie like Paddington first and foremost, with the wonder of the production of the other visual effects geniuses and the excellent cast who managed to pull off this thing happening where Paddington's not there! He's not there! But in the movie, he's there, and he's perfect. And we love him. And he's amazing. Anyway, that just sounds super nerdy. But that's my, you know, the first way I come to it is through just deep appreciation for the craftspeople behind bringing something so delightful and so joyous to life.
***
SLIM: You mentioned it earlier with Paddington and the kind of like heart of this movie. I feel like Paddington really shocked a lot of people when this movie came out. You know, you're making a live action esque Paddington movie. You know, that could just be kind of like an all ages, family movie. But man, these movies have connected with so many adults, myself included. That, oh my god, it's just so fun to go back and watch these movies. They're just so pure!
GENMA: I had a really fun time on Letterboxd actually as Paddington rolled out across the world because what happened was, it came out in the UK in 2014, so late 2014 it came out. I had heard the rumors that it was good. I started noticing our UK based members just going off about Paddington. And to put it in context, Paddington as a as a character in stories created by Michael Bond who was still alive in his nineties at the time that they were making the first film and he's since passed on. But there's a beautiful photo of Michael Bond visiting Paul King on the set of the first Paddington film. And if you had grown up with Paddington, the original animation at all—so after after the books, there was the TV series made which has stop motion animation but of paper cutout characters of Paddington and the brown family. And it's so simple. It's so pure, and so delightful, and it's gorgeous theme music. And making something that's incredibly slick and, you kno, incredibly well CGI. Paul King and his team have kicked the hat of not only the character the in the books from Michael Bond, but the heart of that original TV series in there. You know, including bringing in some of that paper cutout animation for certain parts of the story in both films. So it starts off being authentic. You know? It starts off from a place of authentic love for all of the Paddington properties that have come before. And that is, I think, what has made it so successful from the start. And then as you said, it's become this thing that the adults love. And I recognize that there's a couple of tricks to that. And one is, it's dark enough for adults. Like shit gets pretty dark. When Nicole Kidman's character starts ruffing Paddington and laying him out for the dissection so that she can display him in a glass case in her museum so that she can get back into the society that her father was so roundly rejected from, because he refused to collect these beers who were wonderful and could talk and darkest Peru. I think that's the heart of the story, right? Like that stuff is dark. She's got the taxi driver hanging up by his feet under a bridge so she can get information out of him. She is—she is a good baddie. I will say that.
SLIM: I mean, you said you were team Nicole Kidman earlier to start the show. She's one of the worst villains in the history of cinema. (Gemma laughs) I feel sick.
GENMA: Yeah, because that's the thing, like it is Nicole Kidman! I just think she's perfect! (Slim laughs) I think she's perfect. I think she's perfect because as a baddie. I think she's perfect as a goodie. And by the way, my Nicole Kidman love, you know, wasn't always there, but it's grown. It's grown.
SLIM: What kicked off the Nicole resurgence for you?
GENMA: Hmm. I think the divorce.
SLIM: Mmm. Her freedom.
GENMA: Yeah, her freedom. And that photo, that iconic photo.
SLIM: Oh, that's right. Yeah.
GENMA: Oh her just fists, arms in the air, divorced from La Cruise. (Slim laughs) It's exciting.
SLIM: Should we segue into Vanilla Sky as shortly as we possibly can? That's my final top four. We already made our feelings known on the star of this movie. But at the time, I think that this came out, I saw this in theaters. A lot of these movies, I can kind of trace back to my days at West Coast Video. It was around the time where the store had just started converting to DVD. So they had like two different sections of VHS and DVD and they eventually combined them. So I think my first week might have been when this movie had come out. And so it was in early 2000, 2001. And I saw it in theaters and I was a T Cruise fan. Tom C—we don't have to say his full name. And I saw us in theaters at probably after Jerry Maguire. And I just remember sitting in a theater thinking that it was such a gamble of a movie, a strange movie, for the height of his kind of career at that time. To just make this kind of weird psychological drama, where for half the movie his face was just like mutilated. (Slim laughs) So like at the end of the movie, I just thought it was so risky and—to use the word brave—on Cameron Crowe's part to take this Spanish film and make an English version of it, starring Tom Cruise. It kind of blew me away when I first saw it. And it's just always remained in my mind as one of the most enjoyable movies that I can watch. Due in part because it's just such a strange departure in that timeframe for that actor at that time.
GENMA: And for the director, I guess too.
SLIM: I don't love Cameron Crowe now. I don't think he ever really captured what he had done before this. You know, Almost Famous, Say Anything..., Jerry Maguire, Vanilla Sky and then stuff after that. I think he did like Elizabethtown with Orlando Bloom. So the stuff he did after that never really—at least in my mind or in the mainstream—really caught up. I know he did a Pearl Jam documentary. But yeah, I love Jerry Maguire. I would love to sit down and just watch Jerry Maguire for no reason. Those are just the movies that—I'll give high ratings to movies that just make me feel sad or happy and just know that it's just pulling strings on purpose to make those emotions come out. I'll rewatch those movies any day of the week. Jerry Maguire is one of those. Did you watch it?
GENMA: I did watch Vanilla Sky. I now no longer need to watch it again. (Slim & Gemma laugh)
SLIM: When you logged it on Letterboxd, Proto and Danny—the co-hosts of 70mm, the movie podcast I do—we have a Discord DM. And I screenshotted your Recently From Friends—I think it just had the "watched". It had no rating, had no like. I just posted it to them in our DM and I was like "It's over." (Slim & Gemma laugh) But I appreciate you making the college try. I'm fully aware that I'm in the minority. I think for people that love movies—I don't consider myself like a cinephile. I, you know, I'm just like a film lover. I love to watch and sit and watch them. I'm fully aware that a lot of people do not appreciate him in the way that I do. So it's no insult to me. But I'm just so glad that you made the college try.
GENMA: I want to say a few things. I want to say from a plot perspective, I'm not the biggest fan of puzzle movies. Just not a big fan of puzzle movies. And when I realized this was one of them, I was like, ugh, now it's even worse. (Slim laughs) I give many points to all of the players who are going hard in this in this puzzle world of Tom Cruise's character. Kurt Russell.
***
GENMA: Great hair. Interesting, amazing performance. Jason Lee, I feel like has sort of doofiness was kind of the key to the whole thing. And I saw one commentary on this film that suggested that the whole thing was just a really average novel written by Jason Lee. I love all that. I do love kind of reading into the theories that come out about puzzle movies. And I know that the marketing and of course, the brief romance between Penelope Cruz and Tom Cruise was what kind of put this on the screen. And I guess that's partly why I didn't watch it the first time around. But I hadn't realized that Cameron Diaz gave quite so much in this film.
SLIM: She did.
GENMA: And I really, really appreciated that. So that's what I have to say about Vanilla Sky. And also an observation about your top four. It's that Vanilla Sky and Robocop kind of exist as unusual mirrors of each other. And that you have one man whose body has been taken in disfigured by a giant corporation to do their bidding. And you have another man who has chosen to take his disfigured body to a corporation for his own ince. And I appreciated the mirrored double feature-ness of that experience this week. (Slim laughs)
SLIM: I appreciate you making that connection. And bringing that to the positive side of the table. I've never seen the kind of work that went into putting that together. There's one more movie that we haven't talked about yet. It's your final movie in your top four. In the Cut.
GENMA: Yeah, speaking of New York. Speaking of weird, erotic dramas in New York.
SLIM: You what's funny? There's another section of Letterboxd that we were going to dig into. Rated higher than average, there's a section for your stats page, where you can see for yourself or for others, what movies you've rated higher than the average Letterboxd user.
GENMA: And you can also see what movies you've rated lower than the Letterboxd average, I think.
SLIM: Yes, yes!
GENMA: This is a new feature we brought in only a couple of months ago, because it's so much fun. And also, like, there's a sense that there's the average and you know, you look at the average, and a lot of people make sort of pop quiz decisions on whether they're going to watch something based on "oh, if it's only a three, I think I'm not going to waste my time on things that are less than a five." Whereas the way I use Letterboxd quite often is I hear about a film that I know I'd personally be interested in. I look at the average rating and think, well, hmm, that can't be right. So then I go to the people I follow whose opinions I have learned to appreciate over time, including yours about—everything except Vanilla Sky. (Slim laughs) And then I look at what they're rating it and that gives me my answer. But yes, you're right. So we've got this section called rated higher than average, where you can find out what you rate higher than the average. And In the Cut is most definitely is one of mine. But this leads me to my favorite story about In the Cut that I love telling as it relates to Letterboxd. Which is, In the Cut's average rating generally on Letterboxd is higher than any other movie aggregation site because Letterboxd users have taste. (Slim laughs)
SLIM: I mean, there's probably people that are listening that are like me that have no idea what this movie is. But this is a Meg Ryan feature with Mark Ruffalo, erotic, thriller. I'd never heard of it before.
GENMA: I know. It's a Meg Ryan, Mark Ruffalo erotic thriller. Jane Campion, obviously great New Zealand director, the only woman to win a Palm d'Or on her own, so far. Which has been insane. She made the brilliant series Top of the Lake. She's worked with the wonderful Nicole Kidman several times. And a woman is murdered in Meg Ryan's neighborhood. And so the cops come interviewing the neighbors to see if they heard anything or saw anything. And this brings a detective played by an extremely young and handsome Mark Ruffalo into Frannie's life. And then more things happen, more women are murdered and dismembered. And meanwhile, Meg—Frannie—is wondering whether Mark Ruffalo might have had something to do with those murders, but at the same time as becoming increasingly attracted to him, and he is offering himself to her in whatever way she would like to take him. And that beautiful steamy scene in the bar where he just says to her, "I can be whatever you want."
***
GENMA: I was obsessed with Nora Ephron's Sleepless in Seattle. If I'd had Letterboxd in 1993, I probably would have loved that film once a week. I may have even once written some erotic fanfiction about it, long before fanfiction was a thing. I loved that film! I love the corniness of it! I love the impossible Empire State Building meeting-ness of it I love the whole Meg Ryan, Tom Hanks thing through the nineties. But by 2003 I guess I'd had a decade of being a third wave feminist watching movies that just trash on women's bodies and use women's bodies as the means towards other people having a plot. And what, you know, we had Single White Female, we had, you know, just murder mysteries that were just dead women's bodies everywhere. And what I loved about In the Cut—let's be honest, apart from the extremely steamy sessions between Ruffalo and Ryan—is that there's a thing about being a woman watching movies that involve women's bodies being murdered and dismembered and cruel psychopathic killers on the loose is, is that there's sort of no respect from that. And In the Cut—and Jane Campion generally does this amazing and sort of indescribable thing where she allows a sexual life and an interior life for a female character to exist in that world. That world is not going away from movies. It's, you know, it's endlessly an interesting world to explore for directors. But to then bring in the reality that even while there are murders going on in your neighborhood, you might also still want to have sex. (Slim laughs) It was just like a miracle! It was—yeah, it's hard to explain how it felt at the time, it felt miraculous. It felt like ah, another movie about this stuff and also, it's okay to have sex!
SLIM: Yeah, as I was watching it, I thought, the miraculous aspect of it, that I felt like it happened in such a window where it couldn't have happened ten years before and might not have been able to happen ten years after.
GENMA: And it didn't even really happen at the time, because at the time, the reviewers bombed it. It got a Metacritic F score. And basically, nobody could accept Meg Ryan in a role like this.
SLIM: Hmm. Do you know anyone else with this in their top four?
GENMA: Oh, question. Personally, no. So if you want to know who else has a film and the top four, you go to the Films page on Letterboxd, you go to their little ratings histogram, and then it will say how many fans it has. And In the Cut has (Gemma sighs) a very modest and frankly, you know, distressing 42 fans.
SLIM: Wow.
GENMA: Which means 42 people on Letterboxd have this film in their top four.
SLIM: You know how many people have Vanilla Sky in their top four? 524—
GENMA: Too many. (Slim & Gemma laugh)
SLIM: But I think this conversation and the discussion of how we use our top fours and how what movies we place in there, that's what I'm excited about to have with other people. Because, you know, this movie I never probably would have watched if I didn't hear about it from you and your reasoning behind it in your top four. So like I said earlier, I'm grateful that we've got to talk about it, because otherwise I never would have experienced a movie like this, let alone know it exists.
GENMA: Yeah, and I definitely, definitely would not have watched Vanilla Sky if it wasn't for this.
SLIM: Robocop is I think the big win for us I think this week, that you got to watch Robocop.
GENMA: Yeah, Robocop is a big win. And finally ticking Casino off the off the Scorsese list. I'm grateful for that. I feel like in terms of lush costumes on screen this week between Strictly Ballroom and Casino, my eyes have had a really good time. And I'm really looking forward to how this proceeds in the in the coming weeks and months in terms of other people's top fours. Because I just know—you know, we've built a kind of master list of four we want to hit up. And we're going to be swerving from anime, to pre-code classics, to sixties, you know, detective Noir. It's gonna go all over the place. And I'm really excited because one of the things I struggle with is the Editor in Chief of Letterboxd is my viewing is generally focused on new releases. On things that are coming out, that are coming up, that I need to be across in order to know how to approach editorially. And so then when I dive into some of the collections that you see Letterboxd members completing—like our top 250, or Edgar Wright's, you know, 100 of his favorite comedies or whatever. I just don't know where to start. I feel like I'm never going to be able to be completest in terms of filmographies or collections like that, because there's too much else on my plate as part of the day job at Letterboxd. And so what's so exciting about this top four concept is it's just going to take us everywhere, and I couldn't be more delighted to be doing it with you.
SLIM: Oh man, and just think the excitement we'll have together after you watch Ninja III: The Domination. (Slim laughs)
GENMA: I can't wait!
(music)
GENMA: Thanks so much for listening to this first episode and the brand new season of The Letterboxd Show. You can follow me, Gemma and Slim and our HQ page on Letterboxd using the links in our episode notes. And also why not follow 70mm pod while you're there? No, Slim didn't pay me to say that. Thanks to composing dynamos, Moniker, for the theme music Vampiros Dancoteque. I don't know if you know this Slim, but that particular track is an outtake from the film What We Do in the Shadows.
SLIM: I didn't know that. It's amazing. If you're enjoying the show and have guests ideas or want to pitch us on your own top four, be sure to leave us a review on Apple Podcasts.
GENMA: You can also hit us up on our Twitter and Instagram accounts which are both @letterboxd. That's it for this week. In the immortal, perfect words of Paddington: "If we are kind and polite, the world will be right." And in the even deeper words of Ginger from Casino. "You can't make me stop caring about people."
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(The Letterboxd Show theme music Vampiros Dancoteque by Moniker fades in, plays alone, fades down)
GENMA: Hello and welcome to The Letterboxd Show, a podcast about movies from Letterboxd: the social network for film lovers. Each episode, hosts Slim and Gemma—that one's me—are joined by a Letterboxd friend for a chat about their top four on the platform, that is for movies you choose as your favorite films on your Letterboxd profile. It's an opportunity to learn more about our community of movie lovers. We have links in the episode notes to the movies, lists and people we talk about, so you can follow along adding those movies to your watchlists as we merrily roll along.
SLIM: We'll be having a revolving cast of friends on the show. Filmmakers, podcasters, comedians and normal people just like you and me, who love to sit down and watch a movie and log it on Letterboxd. This episode, we're going to City College and then to jail. And back to City College with Demi Adejuyigbe, screenwriter, comedian and quote, "not a critic". Demi's top four are Lady Bird. I, Tonya, Ocean's Eleven and Hot Rod from 2007. He writes in his review of Hot Rod, quote, "the last truly great goofball comedy." Now—on with the show.
(The Letterboxd Show theme music Vampiros Dancoteque by Moniker fades in, plays alone, fades down)
SLIM: What's it like seeing F9 with 34 of your closest friends? What's the emotion level? What's the vibe? Spare no detail.
DEMI: It's really—it's chaotic. I don't think you can take in a movie on any base level, if you were experiencing it with the adrenaline of a full crowd where you know the crowd like that. It just feels like you're there and like anything that is—like there will be a base level of here's what just happens in a movie. And anything that goes above or beyond that line is a cheer or a laugh, or like just strong reactions. So no matter what happens in the movie, you're like, I enjoyed that, I had a great time. And you leave and you're like, I don't know about the plot, but, you know. (Slim laughs) Just you're excited, you're having fun. We dressed up for it. We all just knew we were going to just, I don't know, it felt like a very cathartic release of being inside for a year and a half and then being like, let's go just see something absolutely, just absolutely chaotic. And it was chaotic. And I had a great time.
GENMA: Important question from the red carpet. What did you wear?
DEMI: I wore a—oh, I actually have it right here. I wore a white tank top and this Dominic Toretto necklace that I got off Etsy. (Demi laughs)
SLIM: Oh my god. (Slim & Gemma laugh)
DEMI: And then I also wore white pants because I am obsessed with this one shot in Furious 7, where we see his—spoiler—his and Letty's wedding where she is wearing this beautiful, fully white wedding gown. And he's just in a white tank top and white pants. And it's like so they had time to prepare. It wasn't like an elopement. And he was like, I got it. I'm doing this. Let's go. (Slim laughs) And it's like if she were in a very casual outfit, I'd understand. But the fact that he is not, it's just sort of like, hmm, I don't know about this.
SLIM: I feel like I see Vin wearing that stuff to like red carpets. I feel like he's pretty much in control of his wardrobe in that franchise at this point.
DEMI: Totally. I feel like he's one of those guys who like think it's like the billionaire mindset, where it's like you spend less time focusing on what you wear and you can spend more time on other things. It's like, well, you can just also wear, I don't know, like, a nicer shirt? I don't know, it doesn't take that much willpower or brainpower to think of clothes. (Slim laughs)
GENMA: So having just seen if F9 with 34 of your closest friends, but, you know, done the whole Fast marathon, you have concluded that 7 is the GOAT?
DEMI: 7 is my favorite. I think it's just what I like about the Fast and Furious franchise is just the idea that it's very high octane, sort of like, incredibly choreographed and really just like well thought out action, within their own sort of set of rules of how physics works, and whatnot. And I think that 7 is the one that gives me the most of that where they just go stunt stunt stunt stunt. And like there's so little planning or dialogue. And I think it's because they bring in a villain where for the first time you don't care as much about his motivations as much as you do about seeing his partaking in the action. Because they're like, well, this guy's a star too. We need to give him some time to shine. And I think because of that, it's just truly there's like no need or time to be like, let's talk about their relationships to each other. It's just let's parachute cars out of the sky. Let's have Brian run up the side of a bus. Let's have them drive between two buildings. It's just, there's no time to breathe or just sort of think, oh, where are they in the world right now? And it doesn't matter! And I love that.
GENMA: And that's what we're there for. Right?
DEMI: Oh yeah.
GENMA: Because you have commented on some of the other Fasts that there are moments where that the exposition without action just goes on a little too long.
DEMI: Yeah, and you're like, I understand it feels like you need this for some of the audience. I am not that person. I truly am—if they were just like, here's the montage of cars doing things I'd be like cool! Just make it Jackass with cars. And I'm like, great, let's go. (Gemma laughs)
SLIM: One of my friends just let me know that there's a new Jackass movie coming out.
DEMI: There is!
SLIM: And it's just like totally under my radar. Jackass, you know, not to date myself. But Jackass changed my life.
DEMI: Jackass was—I feel like it's very, it's one of those movies and franchises that sort of is a pin in a lot of people's lives, where it's like, you know where you were when it came out. You know who you were when you were watching it. And I feel so different now. And it was—so I've seen Jackass 4, I went to a screening of it. And it was very strange to just be like—I was nervous going in and being like, okay, I'm a different person than I was when the last movies came out. I don't know how I'm gonna feel about this. And then watching and just being like, yeah, these guys are wild. And not just feeling like oh god, you can't do this anymore. Just feeling like no, you can, weirdly. But yeah, it's very much a cultural product of a time and it's strange to just be like, okay, they're gonna keep going? (Slim laughs)
GENMA: Their bodies are older—they probably have children—
DEMI: They do.
GENMA: This is—interesting.
DEMI: And they are notably older and you just, you worry for them on that front. But then they still manage to do things where you're like, man, these guys are truly just committed to making us entertained. And I respect that.
GENMA: Well, speaking of Jackass, let's dive into one of your four favorites on Letterboxd. Now, we call this the Top Four. We call it the four favorites. Letterboxd members choose their four for lots of different reasons. And we use four favorites because we're not saying what are the four best films that have ever been made in the history of cinema? We're saying what are your four favorites?
DEMI: Well mine are the same. They are the best movies. (Gemma & Slim laugh)
SLIM: No dispute whatsoever.
GENMA: Well, then on that note, let's start with Hot Rod. You know, from a similar camp as Jackass and Fast & Furious. (Gemma laughs) In terms of stunts and how far people push themselves. Now, this has a 3.5-star average on Letterboxd, but it has five stars from Demi. Which I have to start off by saying is my personal favorite movie space in the world, is five-star reviews of 3.5-star movies. (Slim laughs) Dive on in. Why is it a five-star for you? (music from Hot Rod fades in)
DEMI: So I think I don't have a lot of memories of movies that changed my life when I was young. I feel like I didn't get into film in a big way until I went off to college. And because of that, I just feel like sometimes people just like, oh, what inspired you to get into filmmaking? Or like, what was the movie that you watched forever as a kid? It was like, things that other people showed me. And I never really had a choice in watching. And Hot Rod is a movie that I saw in college with friends. And the first time I watched it, I remember being with them in one of their dorms and just be like, oh, yeah, this is really funny. I'm really having a good time, like laughing so much at it. And then watching it again and just feeling like I'm still laughing as much as I did the first time. And just it being like the first movie that sort of like, slotted in my memory as something that like when people would be like, what kind of movies do you like? I was always like, oh, I want to tell them about Hot Rod. It feels like it was the first time I saw a comedy that felt like specific to my tastes and like a thing that I wanted to think of as—if you were to describe your sense of comedy, what would it be? And I think that it taught me a lot about comedy from a direction side and just sort of like, having watched it so many times now, I just like see the rhythm of how they do jokes and like the, the way that they do so many little touches to the movie that make it funnier, and that I think a lot of modern comedies don't really do very well. And I think that's like, because The Lonely Island are so good at that just all the time and normally. But then, particularly in this movie, they throw away the best bits and they're like, there's no focus on it. And I think that makes everything so much funnier. It's not trying to highlight a thing and be like, laugh at this! It's trying to be like there's a story here. And some funny things will happen in that main story. But also on the fringes of that story are even funnier things that you sort of pick up on and they hit you like a surprise. And they make you react in a stronger way than you would if we were to just be like, laugh at this thing I'm showing you! It's like, I don't know. It's like being on Zoom and someone telling a joke and then like something falling off the wall and the background and that being way funnier than the thing that they're trying to make you laugh at. (Slim & Gemma laugh) Because I think surprise is such a big element of any emotional reaction in film, and especially with comedy. And I just think that movie handles it so well Because they know what they're doing with it. But yeah, it just meant so much to me. And just every time I watch it, I feel like I'm like—I feel like I'm gonna preface it with like, I know it's dumb! And it's not like a great movie, but I enjoy it a lot. But then I every time I watch it, like, it is really good, though!
***
ROD: My safe word will be whhh-iskey.
KEVIN: Sorry, Rod, what was that?
ROD: Whhh-iskey.
KEVIN: Don't you mean whiskey?
ROD: Whhh-at?
KEVIN: You're saying it weird.
ROD: Saying whhh-at weird?
KEVIN: All of it.
ROD: Whhh-ere do you get off?
***
SLIM: I think I rewatched Hot Rod ahead of this. I hadn't seen it in a long time. But what reminded me this movie is if you find someone that likes Hot Rod, like you have found your group of friends. Because you could share this movie with somebody and they could think it's the biggest pile-of-crap comedy. (Slim laughs) And you know instinctively what kind of comedy they like. And what really shocked me to have this watch was the editing of this movie is maybe some of the best editing in a comedy that I can remember seeing in so long. I mean, every point is so well done and well timed that it just hits so good.
DEMI: It really does. Yeah. And it's like another one of those things that the pacing and the editing and just the way that they hit the jokes and sort of like leave you after a joke without like lingering on it or giving you like a reaction shot of someone being like, that's weird. It just feels so very specific. And like a lot of comedies around this time tried it but Hot Rod did it so well. And I'm always just like, it bums me out that their movies never seem to do financially well, because I'm just like they're doing the thing! What do you people want?! (Slim laughs)
GENMA: So good. I'm coming in hot with the editor's name, Malcolm Campbell. Who of course, is the genius who edited Wayne's World. Coming to America. Ace Ventura. Home Alone 3. Wayne's World 2. Shanghai Knights. Son of the Mask. Nothing but Trouble. You know, the list goes on and on and on. So this is someone who—oh and Trading Places—this is someone who gets comedy. And American Werewolf in London.
DEMI: I'm so embarrassed to reveal that of the movies you named I've only seen Shanghai Nights and Ace Ventura. (Slim laughs)
GENMA: You haven't seen Home Alone 3?
DEMI: I have not! Somehow. I really slipped out of the AFI watch I did.
SLIM: Not even and of the Wayne's World?
DEMI: No, I haven't.
GENMA: Wait, whaaat?
DEMI: The bugbear for friends of mine and I'm always just like—it's one of those movies that's been so hyped up for me that I'm worried I'd watch it now and just be like I get it but it's not making me laugh. And I just would rather have it exist in my mind that it's funny than prove myself wrong.
SLIM: Yeah, in my group of friends, we have like a Discord where we talk about movies. And I had this weird thing growing up the same way where if people loved a movie enough before I got a chance to see it, I would be completely turned off to that movie for like years. (Slim laughs)
DEMI: Little worrisome.
SLIM: And everyone would just despise me for it. But get over it!
GENMA: I think that you'd be okay with Wayne's World despite the hype and I'll tell you why. It exists for me in a similar suburb as Hot Rod. And other movies of this sort of comedy olk, which is—and it's a suburb that I grew up in with my two brothers—it is a suburb where people do nothing. They fuck around, doing nothing. And Bright Wall Dark Room wrote a beautiful piece on Letterboxd about how Hot Rod falls into this gorgeous notion of nothingness being important, especially in increasingly online and you know, digital worlds, where people pay stupid amounts of money to go on retreats to get off their phones in order to rest up in order to become better capitalists workers. When in actual fact, what we need to do is just go back to our suburbs. And you know, I wrote in my review of Hot Rod, which I had never seen until last night. So thanks for that Demi.
DEMI: Anytime!
GENMA: And I wrote in my review, "Tag yourself, I'm Kevin" because I literally was. I held the video camera while my brothers and our neighbors did the stunts with the skateboards and the shonky ramps that we built that went up and over the creek that ran alongside our house. So I watched Hot Rod and I think this is my teenage years. I loved it.
DEMI: It captures a weird mundanity of suburbia so well that it also feels like it helps because there's no time period that this movie really exists in. It's sort of like, it has an '80s style. But then every so often, you're just sort of like is it an 80s style? Are we supposed to believe that this is like a vision of how children see themselves and therefore it's like, this is like their story of who they were as kids, but we just are still seeing them as adults. And it's just like, I think that helps it so well because you don't ever go like these guys need to grow up and get a job, it's just kind of like it makes sense, they're children. And they sell the idea of this being what you do and what you care about when your kids so much.
GENMA: I wanted to ask your reaction to—I looked at some of the lower star ratings on Letterboxd of this film. And one one and a half star review from a chap named Jack, writes, "look, the whole proving masculinity thing is definitely more toxic than funny and is not aging well." And this is in response to the whole storyline, which is that is that Rod Kimble wants to earn the respect of his stepdad who was paid by the brilliant Ian McShane, just sooo well in this film. And the whole point is that he needs to raise enough money, $50,000, for heart surgery for a stepdad so that his stepdad can get well enough for Rod to beat the shit out of him. And, you know, finally earn his respect. And meanwhile, there's the girl next door played by the beautiful Isla Fisher, who seems to exist, you know, only for one reason and one reason alone. And I get all of that. But I wanted to ask your opinion on that take?
DEMI: Well, I mean, I always feel like every time someone has a very negative take on a movie I like, I always am, like, my gut response is, it's fine. Like movies are whatever, no one's right or wrong about a movie. I just like that people are enjoying it and thinking about them, whatever. And I feel the same way about that take. But then I also think it feels like that's sort of the point to me? Of like, this sort of notion of masculinity being the thing that you have to prove. And I think that like, it feels like a satire of masculinity to me and it always has. It's just like the idea of the most important thing in this guy's life being not that he loves this father figure, it's that he has to prove himself to this father figure. And the only way you can do that is by kicking his ass is such a ridiculous notion. And the lengths he goes to, to prove that he is good at this, while also sort of like like never really fulfilling the dream that he actually has. Like, he doesn't complete one successful stunt the entire film, but he still gets to the point where he's able to save his stepfather only because he just is so committed. And I think it's like, it's sort of, it feels like that's another example of the background thing being the real thing. Like the thing you're seeing in the foreground is he wants to do these stunts. And it's like, why does he want to do these stunts? It's like, well, he does love stunt work, but really, the only reason he's actually drawn to doing this is because he just has to beat up his father. It is for some reason, a point of pride for him. It's such a ridiculous notion. It feels like that's the joke to me. I don't think anyone has ever watched this—or I hope no one has ever watched this and been like yeah, that is how you prove yourself as a man to your father. (Gemma laughs) And then on the Isla Fisher note, I fully agree. It's always a shame to rewatch this and just kind of be like she doesn't have anything to do besides be a love interest and to like exist in this place where Rod is just like oh no! She has a boyfriend! And then she leaves that boyfriend suddenly, it's like oh the conflicts over, she can be with Rod now. But I guess I wish she at least got more to do.
GENMA: I was gonna say I was okay with the scene where she with Rod says "Okay, you can have a ride on my, you know, funny little scooter motorbike." And then it turns out that she's just this incredible stuntwoman.
DEMI: So much better. Yeah, I think a lot of times like when women get to be love interest in rom coms, they don't get to do any of the com, they just sort of exist as like a foil. And there's one moment at the end where she kisses Rod and it's just this very weird open mouth kiss. (Gemma & Slim laugh) And I'm like, she should have gotten to do more of that over the course of movie where she is also just a weirdo and just very funny and everyone's like, why did you do that? But I wish that it was at least that and if they're still not going to make her like a fully fledged solo person.
GENMA: Yeah, like if Pam Brady had been able to do one more pass, I'm guessing that's what you'd pull out of it. But I would just go back and watch that 90 seconds of Andy Samberg rolling down that hill again and again and again. Any movie that has a scene in it that makes me absolutely weep with laughter is a, yeah, it's a five star in my book.
DEMI: There's also a moment in The Great Muppet Caper where they just let the Muppets go ragdoll and Gonzo jumps in front of a taxi. (Slim laughs) And it's the funniest thing I've ever seen. It's just like suddenly making a person just an object for like the physical comedy is just hilarious.
GENMA: I think you've just brought up a film that you and I maybe love and Slim maybe does not love.
DEMI: Really?
SLIM: Listen, we didn't have to jump into this. We didn't have to get into it. (Slim laughs) The new Jason Segel Muppet one, I wasn't a huge fan of at the time, because I was one of those dweebs that thought that like, aw, Kermit would never abandon his friends! He never lived like that! You know, I was pushing my glasses up in the theater. So I was kind of turned off to the new Muppet one. But you know, maybe it's time to revisit, you know?
DEMI: I think it's worth a revisit.
GENMA: Yeah, it's definitely worth a revisit. It won the Oscar for Best Song! I mean, come on! Hey, Bret McKenzie was only competing against himself. That was amazing Oscars that year, where there are only three songs nominated in one was the song from Rio.
DEMI: Oh yeah.
GENMA: Which features Jemaine, the other Flight of the Conchord, and the other two songs were both great songs from the new Muppets.
DEMI: What a shoe in.
GENMA: Genius. I know. Imagine having a two out of three chance.
SLIM: Speaking of star power, your next movie in your favorites, maybe the most star power in any movie ever filmed.
DEMI: Oh, yeah.
SLIM: Ocean's Eleven, which is sitting at a 3.8 average on Letterboxd.
DEMI: Too low.
SLIM: I mean, is there a movie that has this amount of star power besides his franchise? It's ridiculous, right? (music from Ocean's Eleven fades in)
DEMI: I know! And I think every movie is trying to do that now where you have your Dune's or your Knives Out's, or Bullet Train, where it's just like the cast is so stacked.
GENMA: Oh, yeah! Did you get cast in Knives Out 2, Demi?
DEMI: You know, I was in for a week, and then I'm out. And you know, I'm gonna see what happens. But it's really just like, I think it's not as big anymore. Because the level, the way that stars are now is nothing like they were at the height in 2001. Like when this movie came out, you could not have a more A-list trio than George Clooney, Brad Pitt and Julia Roberts. They just didn't make stars bigger than that. And now there are so many movies, there's so many franchises. I think the idea of a star, and not just celebrity, a star is like whittled down to maybe three people if even that. And I just, I think that's why this movie feels so special to me, because it feels like the platonic ideal of what a film could be. It's just like the biggest stars, the smartest plot. It doesn't feel like it's insane in a way that like, they just threw a bunch of money at the wall and saw what stick. It feels like very constructed and planned in a way that like movies now feel like they can't be because everyone's got contracts that sort of determine what the film has to feature. And it just feels like that was a miracle that can never be replicated. And then to do it two more times, in ways that I truly love just as much, I think is like a magic trick. But I just, every time I watch it, I am blown away. And I just feel like—I also just love a heist movie. I love a con. I love a mystery. Anything where the entire purpose is to give you all of the clues and still trick you, I think is just like, again, the platonic ideal of good storytelling and just sort of the idea of direction being a thing where you are literally leading an audience to a conclusion that you want them to believe that they gained themselves and being like 'I tricked you! It was this.' And that works every time for me. Even though I've seen this movie so many times. I'm just like, I forget, like how do they do it? Oh, right! And it's just—it's so charming. It's great.
SLIM: Yeah, I was watching for the first time in a while last night. And George Clooney's hair to start this movie off, my god. He has an amazing head of hair movie.
DEMI: He does.
SLIM: I don't know what kind of secrets he has, but he needs to share 'em
GENMA: He has an amazing head of hair but it's never been uglier than that prison hairdo. (Slim laughs)
SLIM: I love it! That's the hair I'm talking about! The head of hair, he had it slicked back. I was like, god damn George, you look great right now.
DEMI: So humbling.
GENMA: Absolutely love it. It was like he was owning himself. Right?
DEMI: And he did this back to back with O Brother, Where Art Thou? where his hair is like so purposefully, like dopey. He's just a person where you can put in any scenario and it's like, oh, damn, he still looks very good. But just to like, put him back to back and he's like prison getups where his hair is supposed to look insane. And you're like, how does it still work kind of? It's very funny to me.
GENMA: In canon of Brad Pitt eating in movies, Ocean's Eleven is surely the number one right?
DEMI: Oh, I feel like it's the one where everyone's like, he's been doing this for a while, like we start to sort of see it as a thing that he does all the time. And like it's so funny and just feels like you don't know where it came from. But it works for the character because it's such—I think that's another thing about this franchise, is they give characters like very casual quirks that they don't need to ever like comment on. But it gives them a physicality that makes it so that, sort of gives a clear divide between who these characters are. Like Rusty Ryan is so different from Danny Ocean because of Brad Pitt's very calm and casual physicality. Even though Clooney and Pitt are not too dissimilar acting wise. But I think that like Soderbergh just was very smart about how he was like, I have 11 people, how do I make them all different without just being like this is the smart guy, this is the dumb guy, this is the strong guy, because they're all kind of dumb, actually. (Slim laughs)
GENMA: It's the shrimp cocktails that he's casually eating. The burger when he has a little burp. He holds his tummy and he's a little bit like, ah, I'm done with it. But it's also Don Cheadle's, like, East End accent. What is going on with that?!
DEMI: It's perfect! It's flawless!
GENMA: Innit?
***
DEMI: Barney Rubble.
SLIM: The reviews I was scanning, almost everybody mentioned that accident in one way or another. And I didn't even mind it when I was watching it! I was like, yeah, that sounds right to me. If I'd do an accident, I'd probably sound like that. (Slim laughs)
DEMI: I don't think I've reminded it as a kid even though I am British, and have spent a lot of time around British people. I think I was always just like, oh, probably a different part of England. (Gemma laughs) But I think it's just because it's such a fun choice. There's no part of me that goes like, oh, that doesn't make sense. He should have a proper like, very good English accent. Like that tells us this guy is just of a different—all it's supposed to do is to be like, this guy's not an American. He's not living by the rules that we are accustomed to. So when we see him being someone who's like, yeah, I blow things up. You're like, I don't know. He clearly grew up on the streets of London, I don't know how they did things there. And it just adds to his mythos in a way that I really respect. And I really, I love. I don't think they'll ever do a fourth but I would love to see his character come back in like if they ever do like Ocean's 9. Just bring him back have accent be even worse. Why not? (Slim laugh)
GENMA: I have not. But did either of you ever watch the original, the 1960 Ocean's Eleven?
SLIM: No.
DEMI: I was planning to when it was on criterion channel, but I heard it's not very good and then ends with like a weird blackface thing. I was like, I'll miss it. But I also just heard it's not very heisty. It's just a lot of talking. And I'm like, well then I don't want to watch that.
SLIM: Right, yeah.
GENMA: I guess my only thoughts were around the star power 2001. You know, like maybe, because the original Ocean's Eleven in 1960 features Frank Sinatra, Dean Martin, Sammy Davis Jr, Angie Dickinson, who was a huge star at the time. Cesar Romero, like crazy, crazy people, the Brat Pack. Absolutely. And it's funny, isn't it? Because it's almost like you couldn't remake it until you had George Clooney, Brad Pitt, Elliot Gould. It's funny when things can come back around again. I'm not sure, I guess you know, we'll know when we see it. But I'm not sure that Timothée Chalamet in Dune is quite the right starpower for another go round this soon.
DEMI: I don't think they could do it again. I really just feel like because of the way that stars work, and because of the way the internet works, it just feels like we are over inundated with any celebrity, even if they don't have like a presence. You know, we have paparazzi capturing their every move. We have announcements of all of their movies, we see so much of these people in their personalities in a way that we never got to at that period of time, because the internet is like democratizing the very idea of existence. And therefore, like, there's no one that has like a mythology to them. Where seeing them in a movie feels like you are going I'm looking at a god. I'm looking at someone who is not human who I can't relate to who just has some sort of it-factor. And now you're like, oh, it's Chris Pratt. Yeah, I've seen him in a bunch of things. I get his deal.
GENMA: Clearly, that leads us to the third of your four favorites. (music from I, Tonya plays) Speaking of celebrity and paparazzi, and how we can and cannot ever truly know somebody. And that is the fantastic Craig Gillespie directed I, Tonya.
DEMI: I, Tonya.
GENMA: Why is this in your top four?
DEMI: So I had like, I always feel like I should put I, Tonya in my top four. And then I like no, don't. It's so new. And it's like a recency bias thing. And you talk about it so much. I just always have this like fear of like, someone being like, oh, that's so you when I do things, as if it's like, who cares? I am me. (Slim & Gemma laugh) But I think that it's because if I'm being honest with myself, of like, it's just, I always feel like I need to give some time to a movie to feel like, oh, how do I really feel about it in the grand scale of every movie I've ever seen? And it's just like, every time I think about it, every time I've watched or talk about I, Tonya, I do feel this string, I got to give it more time like I'm scared to commit to being like, I really liked this thing. Like when you're really in love in a new relationship. And I think that it's just because like, I don't see the same love for that movie that I see for Hot Rod or Ocean's Eleven. But I think that's even more of a reason that it really does feel like a personal favorite and not just like an idea of like me trying to like a good movie. Because I think I, Tonya is a fantastic film. And every time I watch it, there's a new aspect of it that I just feel like I want to write so much about or think so much about. But I just think it is a stunning portrait of a type of person that we are seeing more and more of now. But it tries to basically give some sympathy to this character without telling you that she's not still, or without trying to tell you that she's not bad or that she's not like flawed in some way. And I think that's so hard for people to do, because it's often just like—I think with anti-heroes, often you get this portrayal of them as like, oh, they're good, but they're grumpy or whatever. And with this, it's just sort of like, no, she is an asshole, but she's a product of so many things that we also need to consider. And then also, when that all comes to a head in a way that it does where you are now on the biggest stage on Earth, when you are you are validated for your talent on some level, and you have this belief that like people have been treating you wrong, and it's valid. And then you become a person who is like, of a status where you sort of have to—it's like class mobility almost. If you are someone who grows up poor, and you become rich, you don't suddenly in your brain go, 'I'm rich now, I should probably change the way that I think about these things.' You still feel that you are a victim. And I think this movie does that in such a good way, while also saying she is a victim but also not trying to say that just because she is a victim in these ways does not mean that she does not have to think of her responsibility to these things. I feel like I've been thinking about it so much lately, just like with people like Kanye and Dave Chappelle where it's like the intersection of wealth and class and race. Where it's like, when black people have been systematically pushed down for so long. And they sort of—we get these ideas of this is who I am, this is what the world is trying to tell me I am, I'm not going to be that. But then you also rise in power in a different sort of system. You suddenly see yourself still as a victim, even though you are amongst the more powerful people. And it's like when Dave Chappelle goes on stage and is talking about how like, people treat him a certain way because of his race. I'm also just like, well, people also treat you a certain way as you are a man who has $100 million, who at the snap of his fingers can go out on stage and say things to an audience of millions of people. And Kanye, I'm like, yes, you have systematically pushed down as a black man. And as someone who grew up in a lower class, but also you were a billionaire, you have so much power. And I think it's like, a lot of times it's an either or with those scenarios. Where you see a person, you're like, they're either good or they're either bad. And I, Tonya does a very good job of saying this is a woman who has been abused and is a woman who grew up poor and like through the sport that made her feel loved still was seen as a lower class person, no matter how good she got the thing. But it is also a woman who, because of the way that she grew up and the like, support system that she had, and the way that she never really felt loved and anything besides skating. She has a very certain mentality that as an adult, you have to have the responsibility to shed and recognizing yourself and just like, fix! And she doesn't. And because of that she is an asshole. But that doesn't mean she's not a victim. And it's just like, it's things like that, where it's like handled so deftly in this movie. And it feels like it is the only biopic I've ever seen of a woman that has the same energy of like a Scorsese movie, and just like how it's like so poppy and so constantly moving. Like every scene of that movie feels like candy to me, and I love watching it. And I love thinking about it. And it really just is like every little aspect of it, I love so much and I think about in a million ways. Anyway, great movie!
SLIM: Am I adding I, Tonya to my top four right now?
DEMI: Do! It!
SLIM: Like I feel like you just freakin' sold me.
DEMI: Let's get the movement going! We, Tonya! (Slim laughs)
GENMA: Oh my god! We, Tonya! (Gemma laughs) We are Tonya!
SLIM: I did watch it for the first time, finally. This is one of those movies that was kind of like everyone saw I, Tonya. I was like, alright, I gotta wait until things cooled down a little bit. Watch it quietly. And so I did. And man, I just wasn't expecting it to be so funny!
DEMI: Yes!
SLIM: It's hilarious! It is so funny.
DEMI: It's very funny. And I think that because it's so funny, the marketing for the movie was very much like "It's an uproarious dark comedy!" And I remember seeing that marketing come out and being like, oh, no, no, no, they shouldn't market it this way. Because I think it also like came out at the height of the #MeToo and #TimesUp movements. And it didn't feel like we got a lot of discourse about what this movie says about abuse and the depiction of Gillooly as an abuser and all the men in her life as abuser. From the cops who like leave her in the car with this man who's clearly just beat her, to the cops who give her full testimony to Gillooly after she's given it to them. And it's just like so many things like that. Or even just seeing Gillooly where it's like after he's clearly shown to be an abuser but then we get a very romantic scene between her and him where you kind of go like 'I don't know if we're supposed to like him? Why are you doing this romantic thing after we've seen him be a huge piece of shit?' It's like, well because that's how victims of abuse see their abusers!
GENMA: That's how abuse works.
DEMI: Exactly!
GENMA: You know? It's some crazy statistic like it takes someone seven times to leave their abuser if they're lucky, you know? If they get out alive.
DEMI: And then her tying that into the the superstition of her needing abuse to be good at what she does, is so heartbreaking. And it's like handled comedically but has a very dark undertone to it, that I'm always just sort of like, bothered by the idea that they were just sort of watching that movie and going like, "Oh, yeah, we're going to tell people this is funny!" Because I'm like, no, it's so much more. But it is funny. I just think it handles the tone switch of that so well.
SLIM: Mhmm.
GENMA: Interesting fact that I shared with Slim before the record. I interviewed Malin Åkerman, late last year about a boxing movie that she'd put out. And learned this amazing fact about Malin Åkerman, the actress and now producer. She produces movies now, because she had a bit of a jolt. When I, Tonya came out. She called her people and she was like, why was I not considered for this film? Because it turns out that Malin Åkerman grew up as a figure skater, competed nationally in Canada for ten years!
DEMI: Really?
GENMA: Yeah! And she was like, "This is this is insane. How did I not get the call?" And they said, "Well, it's because Margot Robbie built that role in that film from the ground up, she produced it." And that's when the light bulb went off and she's like, "I'm not going to miss out on roles that are perfect for me again." But I love that. I love that Margot Robbie as a producer, obviously has been growing in skill and stature and I, Tonya is an example of that.
SLIM: How do we get Tonya Harding on Letterboxd? Can we make this happen before this episode comes out?
DEMI: I don't know if I want to see what Tonya Harding has to say about certain movies. (Demi & Gemma laugh)
SLIM: What do you think she'd say about Ocean's Eleven or Lady Bird?
DEMI: I think she'd love Ocean's Eleven. Oh, I would love to hear her talk about Lady Bird! I mean, the dynamic of that movie—the mother, daughter dynamic of that movie versus her own mother daughter dynamic. I'm like, well, she probably has something interesting to say there.
GENMA: And there it is. There is the theme that ties all of your four films together! (Gemma laughs)
DEMI: If there was any sort of parental relationship in Ocean's Eleven, I'd be like, that's it! But I don't think there is. (Demi & Slim laugh)
GENMA: I don't know, I think Danny and Rusty a little?
DEMI: Yeah. A little!
GENMA: You know, when he's like, "Don't tell me you're doing all this for a girl. Don't tell me you're doing all this for Tess." There's a little bit of a—I don't know—there's some kind of thing going on. But you're right.
DEMI: Maybe them and Linus? I feel like they have a very fatherly, we're teaching you, sort of relationship with him.
SLIM: I didn't share this because I was too embarrassed. When I first saw Ocean's Eleven, I thought Linus' character was Brad Pitt's son in that movie. (Demi laughs) I like missed a line. So the rest of the movie I was like, 'Wait a minute, is he his son?!'
DEMI: Would have been a bold choice to be—like Matt Damon is young enough to play that. (Gemma laughs)
SLIM: He's like a baby in that movie. You know, it could have worked. It could have worked out. But your final movie that we're going to talk about from your favorites, is Greta Gerwig's Lady Bird.
DEMI: That's right.
SLIM: And this obviously I think for a lot of people can connect with. In my review, I wrote that the one scene where the teacher hands her test back, grade down. I almost had an anxiety attack from my days in school. But how did Lady Bird connect with you in your viewings with it? (music from Lady Bird fades in)
DEMI: I think in the same way that it did with you. It's the little details about the movie. And the little things that Greta Gerwig paints as like a picture of suburbia, and a picture of growing up and feeling like you don't belong in the space that you're in. And slowly having to recognize that even though you don't love the space that you're in, love the people you're surrounded with and are like sort of trying to get out. You have a connection to this city. And just sort of like, it's a coming of age movie that I don't think I've seen many coming of age movies do, which is portray the person who is growing up as a person who is like to be seen as flawed and to be seen as like, 'Oh, I don't look like this city,' but having to sort of realize as they are like, it's time to leave the city, that their environment has made them. And they love the place that they've grown up. Or the things that they've sort of shied away from, are things that bring them comfort. And like the contentious relationships they have with their parents and their friends—or like even just her relationship with their brother—is something that is very relatable to me. And it's different. it's not the same for me. I see it so much more in like my family members and in my sister with our mom than I do with myself. But it is so recognizable in just the idea of dreaming of growing up out of a place. And being like 'I'm better than this, I deserve to be away from this.' And because of that, like not allowing yourself to see the love that people have been thrusting upon you, even if it's in a different way than you are understanding. Or even if it's in a way that you see as like, painful to you. And like, there's so many things she does with her mother, that to her read as inconveniences or it's just a thing that my mom does or whatever. And when you get to see her perspective, and you see the things that she does, just as things that she's doing clearly not because they are convenient for her, but because she loves and cares for her daughter. I think that that is—it really unlocks just sort of like what the movie is about for me. And there's one scene in particular that I think about literally every day of my life. It's just sort of like—I think it just felt like someone saying a sentence that you wish you had heard when you were younger. It's like learning a word that like everyone's like, "Oh, it's door." And you're like "Door? Door! Door! Door is the thing that it's called that I see everywhere!" (Gemma laughs)
***
DEMI: And I think about it in respect with everything that I do. It literally changed my life. In the way that I stopped giving attention to things begrudgingly, because I'm like, no, I should only do things that I love. If I'm paying attention to something, even if I don't like it, that is still a form of love. If I'm spending time with friends, that is a form of love. If I'm being attentive to a person directly and being like, I want them to know that I'm focusing on them, it is a form of love. I think even just in the way that I look back at my hometown, and I just sort of go "Oh, I didn't like it. There was nothing to do. I did this. And I did this. And here are the things that I have." It's like in describing something with such passion and such fervor and like focused understanding, that is love. And there's a tweet that someone wrote ages ago—actually, no, I do remember. It's this woman named Danielle. I think her at is @petfurniture. Because again, it sticks in my head with this movie. But just the idea that the currency of love is focused attention in all forms. And I think about that so much as the thesis of this movie. And it's like, when Lady Bird's mom is going to pick her up from her friend's house, and they have a conversation where is like, "Oh, I thought my brother's gonna pick me up." It was like "I did." It's like "Why?" It's like, "Well, it was just easier." And it's like, it's not easier for her. It's easier for Lady Bird, it's easier for her brother. And and that's because her mom is just—we see these moments where she gets to be alone, and it's so blissful and peaceful. But because she loves her kids so much, she is putting in the work to be like, I'm going to be attentive and do something that for them is easier. And I'm not going to draw attention to it. Because I'd rather just spend this time getting to be with my child. And even though their relationship is so contentious, and it's so fraught, and you see them fighting all the time. And she even has that moment where it's like, "I know that you love me. But do you like me?" You see that in those little moments and the things that she does and the way that she pays attention to her daughter. And even like when she chooses to call her Lady Bird knowing that that's what she wants to be called. And when she chooses to call her Christine, there is a such a focus and strong love there. And I think that that is something that a lot of kids don't get to grow up fully understanding until you're an adult. Just like, oh, you think your parents are such assholes because of the way that they treat you. But it's like, well, what about the little things that they do that you don't recognize as love because it's not outward affection or it's not them treating you like a friend or something. And I think that that was so powerful to see in a way that is not condescending, and sort of has respect for both the mother and the daughter. And I just—I really loved it.
GENMA: Does anybody have Greta Gerwig's phone number? (Slim laughs) So we can just play that down into her answering machine and she can listen to it every day.
DEMI: Greta, I love you! (Gemma laughs)
SLIM: Am I adding Lady Bird in my top four right now? (Gemma laughs)
DEMI: Yes you are! We Bird! (Slim laughs)
GENMA: I want to add to all of that in a craft sense because I can't speak more eloquently than you, Demi. And in the sense of how that film recognizes what growing up in the suburbs is like when you are a person who feels a bit weird and a bit different and you know that you're destined for other things. Definitely been there.
DEMI: I think that's also another connection between Hot Rod and Lady Bird and I, Tonya. The idea of like trying to grow up outside of what you've been told, this is how you—this is what you should be. And just sort of the idea of the conflict of those movies being about getting out of that space. Although again, Ocean's Eleven, complete outlier. (Gemma & slim laugh)
GENMA: But to sort of compare the craft of Ocean's Eleven and Lady Bird for a minute. I guess, one of the things I love about Greta Gerwig's work is it's in the writing, the directing and the editing of the ins and outs of scenes. So you know, you get the knowledge that the lives of these people stretch beyond the beginnings and the endings of the scenes we're watching and that we've just dropped into this moment for a few seconds. As opposed to something like Ocean's Eleven, where every scene is very much a set piece, you know? And neither is the more correct approach. They both do something wonderfully different on screen. But I think it's there. And it's little throwaway lines, like Marion's finishing her hospital shift and says to her colleague, "Well, I guess we can't have pencils anymore." It's like, well what happened? What happened on the ward today that means you can't have pencils anymore? That's sort of stuck in your head, and then you're on to the next scene. But I love that about it. You know, like Ocean's Eleven, there's nothing that is—nothing that feels casual or misplaced. Whereas Lady Bird is full of those moments, but none of them have been put there casually, or by accident.
DEMI: It's a very constructed image of casual life as a way of just being like, the story that we're seeing is not her whole life. It's just—it's the slice of life that you need to see to understand their relationship. And I think it's so good. I think Greta gerwig is so good at telling stories that are about following people through their personalities and not through like, a very specific conflict or situation. Like, I think that Ocean's Eleven would be a very different movie if she directed it, because there's a running plot that they have to focus on. And it's not just like, I'm trying to tell you who these people are in relation to each other.
SLIM: This has 17,000 fans on Letterboxd. So 17,000 people have this in their favorites as well.
DEMI: Wow. What's the average rating of this movie?
SLIM: This is 3.9.
DEMI: Hmmm. Still could be higher. (Slim laughs)
GENMA: Too low.
DEMI: Let's get that up to a five!
GENMA: Why do you think it's so low? I reckon it'll be people saying Chalamet doesn't get enough screen time. And, you know, the other interesting thing I guess, culturally, sort of in the movie world about this film is that it came out in the same festival season as Call Me by Your Name. Both of those films—and both quite big Timmy moments—landed in theaters at the same time. And I remember from the Letterboxd perspective being—I saw them both at the New York Film Festival and was so pleased and relieved to have seen them A, on the biggest screens possible with the directors talking about them in that moment. But B, as early as possible in their Letterboxd lifecycle. Because those films together have, you know, grown in stature and exploded and then one of them's taken a dive because Armie Hammer—we don't talk about him. And you know, on it goes. But it's just, it's so interesting when a movie moment hits like that.
DEMI: Yeah. I wonder what my relationship to I, Tonya would be if I had seen it later. Because I was lucky enough to go to a WJ screening with a friend. And I remember just sitting there being like, wow, that movie was really good. And then I was like, I can't stop thinking about the movie. I want to go see it again. So I went to another WJ screening before it came out publicly. And I was like, that movie is really, really good. And then it came out and I saw it twice again in theaters. And I was just like, man, I love this movie! And it just felt like I was able to form my own feelings about it before other people could. And I think because of that—I think that's why I have this residual feeling of like, you know, I'll just wait until cultural consensus comes in and then tells me whether it's okay to like this movie when it's actually like, no, I like it. I love it! (Gemma laughs)
GENMA: We looked it up. And you have seen I, Tonya—well, according to Letterboxd—you've seen it eight times. Is that an accurate number?
DEMI: No, I have seen it one more time than that. And that is because I watched it in pieces once with someone over the course of several days and then just didn't log it, because I was like, I don't know how to log this and also it doesn't matter. But yeah, I've seen it at least nine times. (Gemma & Slim laugh) And I was talking the other day with a friend about it. And I think we're making plans to watch it again soon. So I'm like, alright, number ten coming up!
SLIM: The long thought processes with logging or not rating or logging—just cracks me up. We have—my circle of friends are also on Letterboxd. I'm lucky enough to have a group of friends on Letterboxd. And whenever I log a movie without a star rating, everyone's like "Ohhh. What's wrong with that movie? What happened with that viewing?" (Demi laughs) "Oh, what's going on here?" You're like, alright, I was watching during work. It's just funny the intricacies of how people use Letterboxd, it always cracks me up,
GENMA: I was gonna say, can we ask about your star rating system, Demi?
DEMI: Sure!
GENMA: Because your histogram is curious.
DEMI: That's right! I basically just—I was like, I think there's a lot—it's so loaded to rate a movie publicly and then have people feel like "It should be higher! It should be lower!" And then also sort of think about like if I have to meet with someone who worked on this movie or like a company that made this. And just get all in my head about it. And I was just like, I don't want to do this. And also, sometimes it's fun to just write a joke about a movie and not have it feel like "Oh, he's writing that joke, because he didn't like it. He doesn't want to say that." So I just cleared all of my star ratings aside from anything that was four and a half or higher. Which is just my way of being like, I need you guys to know that I really, really loved this movie. And everything else, I'm like, I don't care. I like it or I don't like it. It's a binary system. And even there are some movies that I don't have as likes that I still am like, it's really good. It just didn't hit me. And I just feel like it was helpful for me in making it clear that I not using Letterboxd more for the front facing rating aspect of it as much as I am as a journal for myself to just be like, here's a movie I saw. Here's kind of what I vaguely thought about it or what I care to say about it. And outside of—and it just also makes me feel a lot less pressured to say the right thing about a movie. Being like, people will interact with it no matter what. So I just don't have to worry about the hassle of people taking it too seriously, or whatever.
GENMA: As a writer, is writing on Letterboxd important to your writing practice?
DEMI: I don't know if I'd say important, but it is the most freeing form of writing where I still feel like I get to put in the voice that I want to extend to my professional writing. And I think a lot of times I write a Letterboxd review, and I will just sort of be loose with it and just sort of be like, I can't figure out the words, so I'll just kind of say this. But then I'll other times just be like I want to get across an idea. And I'm sitting there after the movies done. Just being like, here are my thoughts right now. But I also feel like I want to construct this. And I don't like this sentence structure. And I said this two times in a sentence, so I gotta edit it. And it feels like my brain is in a similar mode as when I'm writing professionally when I'm just journaling something on Letterboxd. Which is very helpful to me, because a lot of times I'll watch a movie and just be thinking about how it's constructed, and then go into movie mode—or like writing mode and sort of keep that going when I'm actually writing feels like—for my brain at least—like I'm writing so much more than I am. And so it just helps it feel more natural to me getting to be like, oh, I watched this movie, I'm going to write a thing about it that feels like it's not just a joke. And then I'm like, well, I am writing. I'm convincing myself while I'm writing and it's not hard for me to write. And look at this Letterboxd review I wrote that feels like an earnest piece of, you know, writing. I can write! And then I go off and write and I'm like, yeah, I shouldn't be so nervous about doing this. I do this all the time. So it is very helpful.
GENMA: I'm yet to meet a writer who likes writing. (Gemma laughs)
DEMI: Oh, yeah, no, it's the worst thing about it.
GENMA: It's the worst! Writing's the hardest, man, it is the hardest.
DEMI: I love when I finish writing something and then I send it off and like, wow, I'm really happy with that. And someone's like, "This is great. I have a few notes." I don't respond for two weeks. Because I'm like, I don't want to. I don't want to look at it! (Gemma laughs)
GENMA: I like your Letterboxd reviews that are more like stories, moments that happen in your life. And I guess because Knives Out 2 is very much in the ether. Can we revisit your Knives Out review of the original, which is about the notebook?
DEMI: Oh yeah, the one that has since been deleted, because I was embarrassed. (Gemma laughs)
GENMA: You deleted it? Ah!
DEMI: I delete a lot of reviews because I start to just get anxious about the way that people interact with them. And then also just feeling like agh, am I caring too much about this thing? I'm like, I don't want people to yell at me. I don't care. Just get out of here! And it's like helpful for my brain. But then I also am like, hmm, I wish that I had an archive of that. And it's whatever. I think it's—
GENMA: We can maybe help you with that. I'm sure that data exists somewhere. (Slim & Gemma laugh)
DEMI: I downloaded my archive, and it's still in there as a deleted post. And I was like, okay, so all of these are saved. That's nice. But then I also was like, it's nice to have those and still be like no one else is seeing this and that's fine.
GENMA: So the point being that this review I'm talking about is no longer available. But you ran into Rian Johnson and he had a little notebook. And that notebook turned out to be maybe the beginnings of Knives Out?
DEMI: It sure was.
GENMA: Oh my god! Only in LA. (Slim laughs)
DEMI: Yeah, only in LA.
GENMA: Well, look, before we wrap up, we've got a few other tasty deep dives that we've done into your Letterboxd account.
DEMI: Ohhh boy.
GENMA: Here are some movies that you have rated higher than the Letterboxd average. Peter Jackson's Tintin.
DEMI: Oh yeah.
GENMA: Did not land necessarily well at the time. But you love it and you want a sequel?
DEMI: Oh yeah, it's the number one thing that I'm just—every time Peter Jackson's like "I'm doing this!" I'm like, don't! Do the Tintin movie!
GENMA: The Beatles are old.
DEMI: The Beatles will be just as old now as they are in ten years. Do Tintin!
SLIM: Can you imagine like them doing a CGI Indiana Jones franchise as good as Tintin was? When I saw Tintin, I was like, this is what I need from any Indiana Jones properties feature. That's how good I thought it was.
DEMI: It's fantastic. And it's just so artfully designed and like played out in a way, where I'm like this storytelling can only be done in animation. And I'm so glad that they nailed it. So I'm just sort of like, I guess it was probably a stressful process. And everyone's probably so busy with a million different things. Because it's like, that team is truly just like, every heavy hitter in Hollywood. And yeah, you're not gonna get them together to do another one of these. But I'm like, pass it on to someone and just have them as producers or guidance or something, because I just felt like I need so much more of that movie.
GENMA: I agree. And I think it must have been a box office thing, because I feel like when they first announced that they announced three. And that Jackson would do one and Spielberg will do one and then I think they'd tossed for the third. I don't know. But we only got one. I wonder though if it's Tintin in general being of, you know, Belgian or US property and not part of the Marvel Cinematic Universe, I don't know.
DEMI: It's just too niche.
GENMA: But I loved it. And then another one is—Game Night.
DEMI: Ah!
GENMA: You rated that way higher than the Letterboxd average.
DEMI: Which makes sense. But I love that movie. So I watched that again—I've watched almost all of these movies since the pandemic began. And each of them only sort of raises in esteem in my mind. Game Night is just—it's great! It's a comedy that is clearly thought out more than any of the modern studio comedies. And by that nature alone, I'd give it so many more points, but then all of the jokes hit for me. So I'm just like, that's great. What's to hate?
GENMA: Some things to me don't make sense. Like Grease being rated anything lower than a five, you know? (Slim laughs) It's like a 3.4 on Letterboxd. I don't understand, Grease is just—
SLIM: Check the numbers again. Something's wrong there. (Gemma laughs)
DEMI: Yeah that sounds like a mistake. Grease for me is such—I could never look at it without a bias. I talked about how I didn't really watch movies as a kid. I watched Grease repeatedly. They played it so much at this daycare that I went to.
GENMA: At a daycare? Wait. When you were like, four, three?
DEMI: No, I want to say from six to ten.
GENMA: Okay. More like after school. Okay.
DEMI: Yes, yeah.
GENMA: I'm like, they're playing Grease to three year olds?
DEMI: No, that place should be shut down if so. (Gemma & Slim laugh) But they played it so much for us. Like they put together medleys for us to perform in shows at the local mall. It just was like a thing that I knew so well. And I didn't see it for years. And then rewatching it, it just felt like oh, I remember all of this. It's so much a part of me. My love of musicals is probably entirely attributed to Grease. It's just like, I could never be—look at that objectively. I love it so much, as problematic as it objectively is.
GENMA: And thank you for including—well, you didn't know you included it. This is just how our rated higher than average magic machine works. But I'm so glad to see another Mary Poppins Returns fan in there!
DEMI: Ugh! Controversial one for me.
SLIM: Really?
GENMA: Yeah, is it? Slim?
SLIM: I'd say! (Slim laughs)
DEMI: Well anytime I'm like, that's controversial for me. I'm like, well, no, I'm me. So everything I see is like, whoa, I've seen a lot of that. It's like, yeah, well, of course you have, from your perspective. I loved Mary Poppins Returns when I saw it, I was blown away. And then I saw it in like a screening. And I just had to sit on it for a while being like, I can't talk about this movie that I saw, but I loved it so much. And people are gonna freak out when they see it and I loved it! And I remember saying something like, "I think I just saw the best movie of the year." And then being like, "It was Mary Poppins Returns!" And everyone being like, "Hmm—" and then them watching it and being like, "Oh, yeah, it was nice. I mean, I didn't like—it was nice." And then when the WGA sent out screening DVDs, I held a screening for my friends at my house. And I was just like, "I love this movie, you're gonna enjoy watching it." And they were like having fun watching it and like talking amongst themselves and making jokes. And I just got so like, like, grumpy, like they're not paying attention to the movie that I love! I was just sitting in a chair silently watching it.
GENMA: What did they not get? And I guess part of the question is how recently had you seen the original Mary Poppins and how much do you love the original Mary Poppins? Because I think knowing that it's the children and, you know, and knowing also that the dad is played by the voice of Paddington. And I don't know, for me, there's just all these things that tie in so beautifully together. And also The Place Where the Lost Things Go is one of the best songs ever written. I'll say that till the end of time. It makes me cry every time.
DEMI: That whole movie worked for me. And it's just like, I look back at just being so grumpy. And it's funny to me and I make fun of myself because I was like, what a babyish way to react to someone not liking the thing that you like. (Slim & Gemma laugh) But also it was just like, having a very—it's such a strange sensation to feel so strongly about a movie that when you watch it with someone else, you sort of are like, "No, I need you to—I need you to feel the same way that I do about this thing!" And it's like why I don't—it's always so stressful to watch a movie I love with a group. Because I'm just like, one person, I can understand them, they'll like take it on, and I can take whatever reactions they have. A group, they're gonna have fun with each other. It's not about the movie anymore. You're not gonna get whatever response you want. And like that movie, I think it's another scenario where seeing it early means that I didn't take on the cultural perspective of how everyone had seen that movie. And so I went in with absolutely no expectations. And I came out just thinking it was so special, and so well crafted, and just basically not having to have any sort of preconceived notions about it. And then everyone else didn't get that chance. And so it felt like I was just constantly fighting this idea of like, oh, it's fine. It's a perfectly fine Disney movie. But just my own preconceived notion of like, no, it's actually better than all of these!
SLIM: Watch it again.
DEMI: Yeah!
SLIM: I was gonna say I had a similar feeling to a follow up movie in your higher rated than average, which is, Last Jedi is in here. So I was the first person in my group of friends to see The Rise of Skywalker.
DEMI: Oooh.
SLIM: Amped. So pumped after Last Jedi. I loved Last Jedi. And I was the first person to see Rise of Skywalker, came out, wrote my Letterboxd review, shared with my friends, and I had to wait like, hours before they were able to see it. I had such a bad experience with Rise of Skywalker (Slim laughs) that everyone else—it was the opposite of yours. Every one of my group of friends, like didn't agree with me. Like, "Oh, it was fine. It was a good ending." I was like, oh my god, no! What's happening?
DEMI: I think sometimes, even if you're not trying to, you can set expectations for the way that people see a movie. And because of that, they will either come out liking it more or not liking it more. And it's such a tricky thing to do, especially on a website where the whole idea is you're telling people what you thought of a movie. And oftentimes, I'll just like, I'll say that I liked it or didn't like it. But I don't want to say anything too strongly. Because I do not want someone to see this and then go, "Oh, he liked it. I guess I'll go see it." Because then I'm like, I might ruin it for you in that.
SLIM: Right, yeah.
GENMA: And I also love that, you know, coming full circle from the beginning. When Demi you watched F9 with real people together for the first time in—I don't know—a year and a half. And then so we're back in that world, we're moving slowly back into that world, which is great. But it also brings with it this anxiety of watching movies you love with people who maybe don't appreciate it. So it's sort like a double edged sword. Do we go back to the cinemas or better group viewings? Or do we hold these things close to us?
DEMI: I think it's about recognizing the difference—just sort of recognizing the difference between appreciating a movie and making it something that is part—that you feel is personal to you. And is like a part of your personality. Because I think if you make a movie a part of your personality, people not appreciating it does feel like a slight against you. But if you're just like I love this movie and my relationship to it is not about how other people feel. It's such a healthier way to enjoy things. And you get a very fun sort of dynamic of getting to talk about a movie with other people and getting new perspectives on it and not feeling like you are having to challenge or correct or feel like you're coming to a conclusion about what's correct. You just sort of getting to experience the movie in a new way. And I love seeing movies with friends even if I don't love the movie—or even if I do or don't love the movie myself, because it feels like I'm getting to watch it again through fresh eyes. And that's always so exciting. And I don't know, I think I'll always enjoy watching movies with people more than I do alone.
SLIM: Let's go Hot Rod with Tonya Harding together.
DEMI: If she doesn't like it, I'm gonna scream.
(music)
SLIM: Thank you so much for listening to The Letterboxd Show and thanks to our guest this episode, Demi Adejuyigbe, for sharing his love of his favorite movies. You can follow Gemma, Slim—that's me—and our HQ page on Letterboxd, using the links in our episode notes. Also, maybe follow 70mm pod—my other podcast—while you're there. Thanks!
GENMA: Wait, did you write that or did I write that? (Slim laughs)
SLIM: You wrote that! (Gemma laughs)
GENMA: Ohhh, okay, fine, it can stay. Don't edit that part out. I forgot to take it out from last week.
SLIM: Live no editing in the outro. And thanks to composing dynamos, Moniker, for the theme music Vampiros Dancoteque
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SLIM: Hello and welcome to The Letterboxd Show, a podcast about movies from Letterboxd: the social network for film lovers. Each episode, hosts Slim—that's me—and Gemma are joined by a Letterboxd friend for a chat about their top four on Letterboxd. That is the four movies you choose as your favorite films on your Letterboxd profile. We have links in the episode notes to the movies, lists and people we talk about, so you can follow along adding those movies to your watchlists.
GENMA: Today we are escaping the snowy woods and going back onto the beach with filmmaker Josh Ruben. He is an actor, writer, director, College Humor legend, Kevin Bacon enthusiast annnd Letterboxd member! Josh's new film comedy horror Werewolves Within starring Sam Richardson as a park ranger with a werewolf problem is out now in US theaters and On Demand platforms. In his own five star Letterboxd review of Werewolves Within he writes, 'I'm biased, but.' (Slim laughs) So Josh is with us to talk Werewolves and scary laughs or laughy-scares. But also, and just as importantly, Josh is here to defend his four Letterboxd favorites, which are Darkman, Jaws, Little Children and Planes, Trains and Automobiles. Josh writes in his review of Darkman that it is "still imaginative and fun as hell." On with the show. On with the show. On… with the show. (Slim laughs)
SLIM: I'm gonna include all three of those. (Slim & Gemma laugh)
GENMA: My first question, Josh, is about your number one movie, which we'll get into in detail. But is Darkman the greatest comic book movie ever made that's not based on a comic book? Be honest with us.
JOSH: Oh, I mean, yeah! You don't just come up with something like Darkman, and not be disappointed that you didn't get to make Batman, which I think is what Sam Raimi's situation was. I revisited it recently because I thought I remembered that I wore the VHS tape into the ground as a kid and forgot about it. And it's holds up so beautifully well! It's so original. I figured, you know, if we're in the world of Deadpool, like the Marvel superhero who can like you know, drop F-bombs, and we can see all that the fun violence of it all. I think it's I think it's time for like a dark horror, comedy hero, you know? Or comedic, dark horror hero. Any combination of those words, it's just it's been a while. It's such a good movie. It still holds up!
SLIM: I feel like it came out maybe 30 years ahead of its time.
JOSH: Right.
SLIM: You know, I rewatch it this week. And it's a 3.3 average on Letterboxd. It has 24 fans, which means 24 people have it in their favorites right now.
JOSH: Mhmm.
SLIM: In digging in around the movie, you had mentioned it, but what I didn't realize is that Sam Raimi—just like you said—he couldn't get the rights to Batman, or The Shadow and he's like, eff this, I'm just gonna make my own movie. And that's essentially what happened. That's bonkers.
JOSH: Exactly. And that's what I would do. I'd come up with a brilliant idea, basically the Phantom of the Opera, but superhero. That's basically what the idea is. And I think it's pretty ripe for a remake and I'm gonna just gonna keep saying it on Twitter, and reminding people that the movie exists until someone gives me the opportunity. Like, hello Universal! You know?
GENMA: You could keep saying it, or you could do what Sam Raimi and Ted Raimi and Rob Tapert have done and create a universe of your own that includes Evil Dead and Xena and Hercules and the list goes on. You know?
JOSH: Yeah, I'm gonna have to figure out my clever, like, noun. You know, like, Tubman. But make it you know, like, excuse that it's—Ghoulman! There you go. Ghoulman is probably thing. Clive Barker probably copy wrote it 25 years ago, there's probably a Ghoul Man, just like there's an Ectokid. (Slim laughs)
SLIM: Letterboxd officially owns the rights to that now. Sorry. We should have told you that.
GENMA: Yeah, we could come invest. It's gonna be good. So if you were pitching people on Sam Raimi's Darkman, who are blissfully like me until a week ago, unaware of it. And you know, I just, I went in blind based on the fact that we were talking to you today. How would you pitch it? What's the pitch?
JOSH: I mean, Liam Neeson playing a superhero but also doing a full rage breakdown about a stuffed pink elephant. (Slim laughs) Like isn't that everything you need to know? On top of the fact that Frances McDormand is the damsel in distress, which she hated. I mean, what not to love?
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SLIM: In watching it last week, you get that kind of like Raimi, you know, zany shock moment with that elephant scene. And they you know, when he cracks that guy's arm, and the camera just like zooms on their action. That's probably one of my favorite scenes in the entire movie. It's so good.
JOSH: Yeah, you know, I would love to—when, I'll just say when, not if—when I do my Darkman. (Slim chuckles)
SLIM: Right.
JOSH: I won't even call it a remake. Let's call it direct sequel. With no Arnold Vosloo. Sorry, Arnold.
SLIM: Get outta here.
JOSH: We'll still do snap zooms. You know, we'll still have to do a few snap zooms and fast whip pans right and left to get screaming reactions. It's like, how do you top the style? That would be like, you know, how do you take it a step further without being too earnest? That'll be the real challenge.
GENMA: One answer would be to have not just one, not just two, but more than two exploding helicopters, I think. (Slim & Gemma laugh)
JOSH: Oh yeah, exactly.
GENMA: The great thing about Darkman is that it makes its way onto a list that has been growing over the years, not only in a number of films on it, but a number of fans who follow it. And it's by a Letterboxd member called chopperfireball. And he's been keeping a list of, you know, a mega list of exploding helicopters. And, you know, Darkman obviously on it for not just one but two reasons. Do you watch those shots closely and go, okay, how?
JOSH: Oh, yeah, all the time. And once I started directing, then comes the onset of anxiety, regardless of how much assistant you have in your production, how much assistance you have to blow stuff up or otherwise. It's terrifying. I mean, I get terrified thinking about how to like cover a group shot, let alone, you know, a CGI element or an exploding anything. Even though I have done it before. I've done some projects that have never seen the light of day weirdly enough that are you know, high budget. I have a good amount experience. But it's still like, you know, what a seemingly insurmountable thing. So yes, I study everything I can to try and come to the table with some kind of knowledge. But you know what's funny? No one knows anything. Like on the flip side, no one really knows anything. Like there's a lot, you know, you think you have to look to someone. I mean, yes, you need the technically proficient engineers of it all. But ultimately, like I don't know, stuff's constantly being up ended and reinvented. So that's what I like to think anyways. Somebody who got a 950 on their SATs. (Slim & Gemma laugh)
GENMA: I have to say as, you know, sometime producer, one of my favorite things is when you're trying to put a budget together for a thing you haven't made yet right? It's all ephemeral at this point before you go and produce. And you have to call someone up like a stuntie or—sorry, in New Zealand, we shorten everything. So 'stuntman' becomes 'stuntie', 'soundman' because 'soundie'. But you know, you call a special-effects friend and goes "so how much would it cost to blow up a thing and then do this and then do that…" and they go, "huh… never done it! Excited to think about it!"
JOSH: Yeah. Yeah.
GENMA: And so you're asking people to imagine something that's never been done before and then put a price on it. (Gemma laughs)
JOSH: Right, right.
GENMA: It's so much fun. It's like this kind of fantasy world before you even get to make the thing.
JOSH: It's like you got to rope in a vendor and then it's like, you know, maybe you want to do miniatures, you know, you call the miniature makers and blow that up. That's gonna be different costs than getting like the shell of some, you know, pre-built cockpit and putting it in front of a blue screen or whatever. I mean, it's a wild world, and I know nothing. (Gemma laughs( And I think that we collectively know nothing. We're all in it together.
GENMA: Of the things that you do know, when you rank Liam Neeson films by Letterboxd rating, you really have to scroll quite a long way before you get Darkman. Which came out three years before Schindler's List. So that's sort of just to put Neeson's career in context when Darkman came alone.
JOSH: It goes Darkman, Rob Roy, Ice Road, Schindler's List and Taken 3. (Slim laughs) That's I think my—I haven't seen at least 90% of those, but I'm sure—and I'm sorry to cut you off, but I just had to weigh in.
GENMA: No, no, no. You knew where I was going with that. That's perfect. You've been thinking about it a long time. I love it. I love it.
JOSH: All day.
GENMA: Speaking of explosions, you do manage to pull one off in Werewolves Within—spoilers. But kind of cleverly budget wise. I don't know. Maybe we need to cut that out. I shouldn't go there. That's right near the end.
JOSH: No, you certainly can! And it's, I think, I can't remember if—my parents recently reminded me. You can tell I'm a Cancer. So I'm going to keep bringing up the fact that I work close to home when I can. My parents were like, you know, I remember you being upset that you couldn't do your big explosion because there was supposed to be this like big violent explosion, but turns out to be almost like a visual joke. And once that was kind of—once we, I guess, realized budgetarily it wouldn't make sense to blow up the town of Phoenicia safely. The alternative was what we have and that was a fun kind of—I wouldn't call it an uphill battle, but just to kind of explain, I'm telling you, for those of you don't understand, this little poof is going to work and it's going to hit really hard. And it will make sense and I think we've seen it in cartoons, I'm sure Animaniacs beat me to the punch like forever ago, you know?
SLIM: Yeah.
GENMA: Speaking of blowing things up, the next movie on your Letterboxd four favorites, is the Steven Spielberg 1970s absolute GOAT of all shark movies, Jaws. (Jaws theme song fades in)
JOSH: Just a little modest, independent film. A little mumblecore fish movie. (Slim laughs)
SLIM: Spielberg, the king of mumblecore. (Gemma laughs)
JOSH: Yeah, kind of mumblecore! Mark Duplass, Steven Spielberg, Joseph Weinberg and—
GENMA: Folk songs, folk songs on a boat. (Gemma laughs)
SLIM: This is I think, third highest most obsessively rewatched film on Letterboxd. It's number 23 in the official Top Horror list. And when I watched this for the first time, in a long time, I think last year, what shocked me on this watch was that it was like family adventure movie, but also horror. And somehow that genre mix worked in a really fun way. What do you feel when you first saw Jaws for the first time?
JOSH: Well, I was probably five or six. So I was focused on like the 'ketchup', quote, unquote, as my parents called it. That's not blood, it's ketchup. I can't remember what it was about the early watches because it's been, it's like spiritually a part of me, I've watched it, I mean, since I was a child. And because, you know, when you start watching movies of that age, you actually you pick up on something new, quite literally every time you watch it every year, and it was on television every year in my house. But I don't know, I think the way I digested it was at first, aesthetically, you know, the blue colors, the sandy beaches, the little odd things that you might pick up on as a kid. You know, the bulging eyed head, you know, the severed hand. Even the video game, the arcade game at the beach, you know, with the machine gun, a shark shooting game. And then like, throughout the years just seeing like, you know, the innuendo or the, you know, the sort of misogyny and quince sort of end. And the easing, or rather effortless relationship of Lorraine Gary and Roy Scheider, that relationship, that marriage was so easy. The performances were just easy and so real. And you appreciate that as you get older. And now of course I watch it and rewatch and think, you know, there's not a lot of bells and whistles, it's performance, and pacing and character. You know, that seems to make the thing so buoyant.
GENMA: Buoyant! (Gemma laughs)
JOSH: On top of those wonderful anamorphic—yeah, there's just something quite buoyant about it. I mean, we're hot off the heels of Fourth of July and everybody's rewatching it, you forget it's a fourth of July movie. Say what you will about the holiday. But, you know, that's where people go "Well watch it again! Holy shit, it's one hell of a masterpiece still!" for newcomers and beyond.
GENMA: What I have been loving on rewatches of Jaws now that I've become a total Jaws freak, is you know, not necessarily all the political details which are what stood out to me obviously this time last year. When we're seeing the mayor refuse to close the beaches as a shark slash pandemic is raging. But it's just simply—and Spielberg's a young man at this point still—just simply that the blocking and the camera moves. And there's just one scene I want to point out, which feels insignificant, you know, in the bigger movie. But when you just kind of break it down. And it's the "Summer's over. You're the Mayor of Shark city, you need to sign the order so I can bring in the contractor" scene in the hospital, right?
JOSH: Mmmm!
GENMA: Which starts off with a kind of deep shot of the ward and there's all these people moving back and forth as Brody in the mirror walks forward and he pulls the curtain. And then they have the conversation quietly behind the curtain. And you're going "all those people are still behind the curtain somewhere" you know? But it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter because it's Spielberg. That entire conversation could have been set up behind a curtain without all the extras, without the tricking shot, without the camera moving. But that's not how he works. He creates full and deep worlds and in every single shot.
JOSH: That's right. I mean, it's wild! It's a shot that could simply be someone walking into the room and relaying a piece of information turns into this deep emotional and highly, highly thought out work of art. I mean, a reflection on a clock to button some scene in otherwise innocuous scene "you can count on me". Even in Jurassic Park: The Lost World (sic), there's a wonderful, like, blocking of a three shot that rotates! I wish I could—I think it's like in the beginning when Goldblum's character is talking to some, you know, aristocratic character, a bureaucratic somebody in some hall. And the blocking is just, it's like, unfathomably good! And you watch the documentary about him. I mean obviously he's watched every single movie twice. But he's also clearly someone who plays jazz. Like walks in the room—and he can spend the time of course, when you're at that level to, you know, figure out the best way, choreograph with your DP how to tell the story. But also just to like, make it interesting. I mean, what a wonderful thing. That's also something that like we have to do, it's not just like, get the information across and make sure the performances are dece. But you also have to like, you know, make it interesting. Get a foreground element, a split diopter, and you know, the whole thing. And then that's before all the music and the you know, the pacing, editing and the like. So yeah, it's admirable, frustratingly so. And it's just like a master just constantly—you know, just a barrage of reminders that like maybe someday you'll have original ideas like this. But I also think that's probably the advantage of growing up on, you know, radio and some film and like not being on an iPod or iPad or iPhone for, you know, your entire formative experience.
SLIM: Why not go from one talented director to another equally talented director? You. For Werewolves Within.
JOSH: Aww, girl! (Slim & Gemma laugh)
SLIM: So this is available as we said at the top of the show, you can see it in theaters, obviously go see in theaters, or video on demand in the States. But this is a follow up to your first comedy horror Scare Me. And I was listening to a podcast that you were on talking about this movie. And you called out one movie that you like kind of kept in the back of your mind while you were creating this. And Arachnophobia, you talk about a movie that scares and scars people in youth. That movie, oh my god, what a horrifying, funny movie to me as a kid.
JOSH: Oh yeah!
SLIM: Related to Werewolves Within, the lead of a kind of like, comedic good person that you don't expect in, you know, this kind of like horror comedy and you get that with Sam Richardson in this movie.
JOSH: Well, that is the touchstone horror comedy. I think that is like the prime example of a horror comedy working. I mean, you have so many examples. I even considered Ghostbusters to be one of them. Certainly Gremlins. But here's one that's even more grounded. The scene I keep bringing up, the example that I think is just the textbook example of horror comedy is Jeff Daniels not getting caught trying to be funny, playing the scene for real, in the basement, in the end arguing with himself which pinot noir to throw at a giant spider. 'And he's really doing it. And it was something that I was trying to do with Werewolves and what I want to do with all my work and what I think like the key to directing horror comedy and really like genre twisting stuff is, which is the world I want to be in. Which is like, really try not hard to get caught doing anything. Don't get caught trying to be funny, play the terror for real. And within the confines of that, you can let your actors be as big as they want. And then you kind of play second base coach, just sort of mold people to be a bit more grounded. Give me a little more, give me a little less. And Arachnophobia, you have characters as big but believable as Delbert and John Goodman's character. But you also have someone playing the terror for real. That performance, Jeff Daniels is bringing his like Mockingbird-level effortlessness talent to role of this small-town doctor, like a city-transplant doctor with the affect and his sort of ease with his kids and you know, how he moves the wine. He doesn't want his kid to touch the wine. He's bringing everything but you also have Julian Sands as an evil scientist, you know, theoretically nefarious. And you also have the great sort of, you know, animatronic effects and the like. I think it's just a prime, prime example. And so, gave it to Frank Martial probably the last minute. I'm sure there's a story, you know, handed it to Frank or Steven got sore throat or whatever it is. (Slim laughs) And Sam Richardson, if we're, you know, to wrap it up or bring it full circle to the Werewolves of it all, he has a Jeff Daniels, Tom Hanks, endearing genuine quality to him. And that's everything. And so you want him to live, you know? (John laughs) You want Jeff Daniels to live. You want Sam to live. You know these characters, they're brought so effortlessly to life. You think, please creatures don't destroy these wonderful human being.'
GENMA: Sam is so great as Ranger Finn. Milana Vayntrub is fantastic. Sarah Burns is fantastic. Harvey from What We Do in the Shadows. Cheyenne. They are all so cool. And I just wanted to know as a director working with your casting agents, when you are deciding who you're going to play with—which is what it is really—how do you do that? What are those conversations?
JOSH: Well, in this case, it was you know, we knew we were going to the middle of the woods in Fleischmanns, New York. You know, not summer camp quiet, but winter camp. And my casting director was Gayle Keller. My first conversation was, you know, I don't want any assholes. I want good people. You know what I mean? And her first sort of swing was Harvey Guillen. And she said, what about Harvey for Joaquim? And I was like, well, I love his look. I haven't seen the show. I think he's great. I asked a mutual friend about him. He asked a mutual friend about me, the same mutual friend. And then two, asking actors, you know, to put skin in the game. Who would you want to play your husband, Harvey? You know, he suggested Cheyenne. It was his idea. Or asking George Basil, who do you want to play Gwen? Who do you want to play your spouse? So not only do the actors feel like they have ownership over their part and over the project, but they also have a buddy at the end of the day to go out to the middle of, you know, Fleischmanns, New York in the winter. They will have a buddy the way that I want a buddy in Milana, who have known for years, who plays Cecily, or in George Basil, who I've known for years, you know, George who plays Marcus. I thought, well, if all goes to shit, I'll at least be able to get a hug and a margarita, you know, with my buddies. (Slim & Gemma laugh) And then, you know, you're writing a list of people you want to work with. Michael Chernus and Glenn Fleshler, and the like.
GENMA: You say that, and I saw on one of the actors' Instagrams, some behind-the-scenes footage of everyone eating cake while somebody is screaming on the other side of the door. I just love that.
JOSH: So good! I mean, that's the other wonderful thing is you want everybody—and this plays into, you know, first going with I know I want friends. I know I want people who are disarming and are good leaders, A. But B, people who have, you know, live theater experience, have good reputations who can bring it who don't have major egos. We all have egos, and it's okay to bring that to the table. It's just about being good people. The fact that they all got along the way they did, made each other laugh the way they did, wanted to read lines off camera and on camera. Upside-down camera, below camera. That was incredible. That was such a such an incredible privilege. And it shows! You watch the movie and it shows. Like okay, yeah, these people had a great time.
GENMA: In your promotion of your own movie. You have been saying you can rent it or you could support Trans Lifeline.
JOSH: Yeah!
GENMA: I'd love to hear you talk a bit about that. I mean, that's a choice.
JOSH: Oh, definitely! I mean, what's the most elegant way to put it? The trans community is suffering more death, harassment and beyond than certainly a 37-year-old white-privilege director could or would or has ever. Let alone the LGBTQ+ beyond community. So if I can do my best to raise voices or signal any charity, be it for the Asian community, mental health, be it for gay rights, be it for Black Lives Matter, I'm certainly going to do it. I think that that's sort of the—that has to be the trade off. You can't just be a 'me', a filmmaker, a director, you know, an actor, a public personality of any kind and make stuff and not use your platform for good. Like you can't just go off and make cameos for $50 and not support your fellow man, woman, they. Because they are supporting me. Like I'd be nowhere without the community at College Humor, which is a gigantic demographic, not just of white dudes who love boobs and beer and video games. I've got wonderful fans across, you know the entire spectrum of humanity and you have to give back. And it also is just like karma. You know what I mean? I'm from Woodstock. It's like, if you just, you know, litter and shit, something bad's gonna happen. Like, don't go in the water, you know what I mean? (Gemma laughs)
GENMA: Well, that is gorgeous. And speaking of using your platform for good, we noticed that on Letterboxd… When it comes to ratings… (Gemma laughs)
JOSH: Oh yeah! Here we go. I like all the baddies!
GENMA: You like all the baddies! And it's interesting. We have a mechanism by which we can see what you have rated higher than the Letterboxd average. Let's start with Werewolves Within. Five stars from Josh Ruben! (Gemma laughs)
JOSH: Yeah. People are like "you rated your own film?!" and I'm like well, I did spend two years making it, so you bet your little ass! You bet your little ass I think it's good.
GENMA: Before we dive into your final two of your four favorites just another couple that you have rated, that you've given five stars to in fact, that sit far above the Letterboxd average… Ghost!
JOSH: Ugh, so good! Oh, cry my eyes out. Cry my eyes out.
GENMA: That pottery classic!
JOSH: Girl, girl! I mean, come now. It's heartbreaking. Demi Moore's haircut alone. Tony Goldwyn is a villain. Whoopi Goldberg's Academy Award winning performance. I mean, holy crap! That is a fucking horror-comedy-drama if I've ever seen it! That is horror and comedy and drama. I think that's actually an integral part of me, much like all the ones that everybody who's you know, gonna tout the Spielberg of it all, has deeply, deeply affected me. Because here you watch something and you cry the way the you would at the end of, you know, I don't know, Goonies when they see the ship or whatever if you're a kid. And it has the same horror as you know, Gremlins or something. With the things that come out of the ground. But it also has this incredible love story. Like I remember sobbing in my room watching Heartland Express (sic) when I was a little kid too for some reason, cuz I love these characters. I don't know if you can believe that. Talk about beautiful compositions by the way. But it literally has everything. The humor and the horror and the heart, we don't see enough of, you know, the sorts of films that can achieve all three. So I think that's five all around, like talk about genre bending!
GENMA: Love it.
SLIM: There's another one on there, Labyrinth, that jumped out at me.
JOSH: Girl!
SLIM: Labyrinth is one of your rated higher than average. I feel like a lot of people in, you know, that era grew up with that and that is a movie that just became a staple for decades.
JOSH: Yeah!
GENMA: It's a five-star sexual awakening for me.
JOSH: Oh yeah, absolutely. For many of us! I mean, you know, when I didn't know which way I was gonna go, you know, as we never quite never do. Some of us could take a while.
GENMA: I mean, I think we'd all go Bowie, though. Let's be honest.
JOSH: We'd all go Bowie! (Gemma & Slim laugh) I mean, even Bowie went Bowie, you know what I mean? That one's integral. And it hits all sides of the palate, right? You have the fuzzy, cuddly, you know, Henson characters, then you got terrifying Henson characters. And then you've got Bowie who's ambiguous in every sense of the word. You don't know if he's good, you don't know if he's bad. You don't know which way, you know, his heart swings, let's say. And you know, you've got a kid at the heart of it in that kind of Amblin-esque way. You've got, you know, Jennifer Connelly looking for her brother who she resents in the beginning. And there's this cosmic dread to the storm and the crying baby and the power going out. Everything that terrified me when I was a kid just about what happened and when thunderstorms were about and the like. It just, it hits all sides of the palate. And that's before the musical shit! I mean, the musical stuff! Like 'Dance, magic, dance'. I wanted to have the, you know, the the ability to sponge the lyrics, you know, and pick them up the way that my older sister did when I was a kid so badly. Much like the way that I do like Little Shop of Horrors or something. I think it's a genius. It hits all sides of the palate. (Magic Dance by David Bowie plays)
GENMA: I mean, we haven't talked about what it's like to watch Jaws with an audience which I've never experienced, you know, or any of these films really. But I mean, let's be honest, it's always more fun with other people. And to that end, when Celebrate Brooklyn showed Labyrinth a few years ago in Prospect Park, when my now five year old was one, I went out and I found a stripy pajama set and I took that kid to Labyrinth and I sat near the front. And when it came time, I threw him up in the air, and the crowd went wild!
JOSH: Oh my god! That's so cool.
GENMA: I was just so like, I'm I'm all about the performance.
JOSH: Best mom ever! (Gemma laughs)
GENMA: We'll always have that. (Slim laughs) He won't remember it, but we'll always have it.
JOSH: I'm gonna dress my kid up. Yeah, like him and like the little kid from Ghostbusters II. You're gonna get kidnapped and you're gonna get kidnapped and we're gonna go to the movie screenings, you know, figuratively not literally.
SLIM: You said it yourself. Speaking of children, the next movie on your favorites on Letterboxd is Little Children.
JOSH: Ahhh!
SLIM: Currently sitting at an average of 3.6 on Letterboxd. It has 51 fans that also have it in their favorites list. And me personally, I had not actually heard of this movie before, but I love In the Bedroom from Todd Field. This is a movie that has narration. This is kind of following that similar novel ask storyline of a two people in a seemingly loveless marriage. Patrick Wilson.
JOSH: But it's an art film.
SLIM: It is! Very much so. Patrick Wilson, Kate Winslet. You know, what grabs you from for this film?
JOSH: Ohhh, there's so much. I don't know what it is about this film that keeps me coming back to it. Because you know, on the surface, it looks like it could be a play. Not to say that a play wouldn't draw me in but there's something about the way that Todd Field lures me in as a fan with this world between the music and the you know, the comedic, bumbling brokenness of a local pederast and a local ex cop. Everyone in the movie is broken to some degree. But to add the National Geographic narrator to be the through line narrator gives it this sort of like, otherworldly—I don't know, it gives it this kind of grandiosity that's so alien and elegant and, like, weird and fun. For a movie that on the surface looks like it could be, you know, We Don't Live Here Anymore or like a small kind of John Irving piece. It's got this really nice rate of change that reminds me of like an Election or something. You know, like Alexander Payne films. You think, well who would watch a movie about people just talking in high school? But it's more than that. There's something about the vision and the world and that pacing in the music and the style that just keeps me coming back. It doesn't have a lot of bells and whistles, you know, you don't need the crazy Edgar Wright editing. You don't need a lot of the, you know, whippans or odd sort of moves. It reminds me of like Janicza Bravo's sort of filmography. She's got a very like Mike Nichols-esque, Todd Field-esque sort of style. And that's, you know, the beauty of you know, their work is with tempered, smart compositions, you can actually imbue quite a bit of feeling. Be it terror, be it humor, anything else. You don't need tons of bells and whistles and lens flare, you know? Like, I do, you know? (Gemma & Slim laugh)
GENMA: Yeah, tension.
JOSH: Tension!
GENMA: I also saw it in theaters when it came out and did not see it again until this week. And my lasting memory of Little Children is Kate Winslet in the red swimsuit. And I think it's incredibly elegant, Josh, that you've managed to go this long without mentioning the horniness of Little Children.
JOSH: I mean… I'm a prude. (Slim laughs)
GENMA: I mean let's talk about—(Gemma laughs) There's a couple of fantastic Letterboxd lists that this film turns up in. One is movies where the sex is necessary. And I mean, it's you know, a good list because there are so many unnecessary sex scenes and you know, the Film Twitter lights up every couple of weeks on this topic. But also my favorite list, which is help I got too horny. (Slim laughs) And yeah, in a movie that features a local pederast. It is uncomfortably horny this film. I think it's also just made another list of Slim's. Surely it's made that list, Slim.
JOSH: Oh it did?
SLIM: Yeah, I have a list. I have a list called Man Ass. And, you know, an hour into this movie. I was like, well, gotta add this to my Man Ass list right now. Patrick Wilson is like a god in this movie. I couldn't get over, I need to find out whatever his regime, his diet. He looked amazing.
JOSH: He actually texted me this morning. I've worked with him once before.
SLIM: Stop it.
JOSH: Forever ago and we keep up with each other. He texted me this morning about how much he loved Werewolves, which is very, very sweet. And his young boys did. And I've definitely interviewed him on my podcast I had forever ago asking him about—I think that was probably what we nerded out about the most before. Or maybe it was like the day he was nominated for an award, it might have been an Emmy nomination for—or a Golden Globe maybe for Fargo season two.
GENMA: So you can now text Patrick Wilson back and tell him that he's on Slim's Man Ass list.
JOSH: You're on a man ass list. Yeah, I will. (Slim laughs) Absolutely.
SLIM: You made the list.
JOSH: He knows it too. He probably feels like Mark Wahlberg where at some point, he's like, "Okay, I don't take my shirt off. No, don't make me take my pants off anymore. I sing too!" (Slim laughs) I don't know why I have him a Southern voice. (Slim & Gemma laugh) Like "I don't want to take my pants off! Please! I'm Patrick Wilson!"
SLIM: Like he's always holding a guitar with that accent.
JOSH: Yeah. (Josh laughs) "One… Two… Three…" (Slim laughs) (Josh sings) "The grass is as high as a man ass list." You know what I mean? It's gonna be an Oklahoma song, but not… (Gemma laughs) This is how I disarm my actors by the way. I'm very funny. And I can disarm anyone.
GENMA: I just gave Werewolves Within five stars! It's a magic trick! How'd you do that? (Slim laughs)
SLIM: Everyone listening just bought it on video on demand and rated five stars just from that mere moment. That's very strange.
JOSH: Believe me, I've got the two Rotten Tomatoes accounts. I don't know what I do for Letterboxd. But what I do on Letterboxd, which you probably notice, is anyone who gives the half star or one star really scathing review of Scare Me, I'll just like it because they should know that the director appreciates that they're weighing in. (Slim laughs) But my most fascinating thing is—I really do think it's more fascinating than anything. I don't obsess, but I do have to look because Scare Me—I mean, even Knives Out has like half stars. I have to look at, like on the vertical interface of my phone, which will hold, I don't know, five or six reviews. It goes five, four, one, one, five, three and a heart. And I'm just like, this is great! This is polarized. Polarizing should be good. And we're right in that like 3.1 sweet spot. Sweet spot. So yeah, I had to get myself on and have to show people that I appreciate their thoughts.
SLIM: Yeah, I respect it.
GENMA: Yeah, I respect it. It's so nice to hear that. I often say that I'm a three-star girl in a five-star world, so, you know. (Slim laughs)
JOSH: Give yourself more credit. (Gemma laughs)
GENMA: Oh no, I'm not rating myself, Josh. Oh my god! (Gemma laughs)
JOSH: Okay, good.
GENMA: I'm a six! I mean, c'mon!
JOSH: Okay, good. You're a six in a three star world. And we should all be so lucky. (Slim laughs)
GENMA: So here's the thing. I know that you've worked with Kevin Bacon on a podcast.
JOSH: Oh yeah!
GENMA: Which is so silly and fun. I love it. And I know that we often talk about, you know, Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon. But one of the reasons why Kevin Bacon gets the six-degrees treatment is because Kevin Bacon is the cameo king! My favorite cameo that I always forget about is when he turns up as the stalker in Jane Campion's In the Cut.
JOSH: Ohhhhh!
GENMA: But let's talk about Planes, Trains and Automobiles and Kevin Bacon. This is your fourth favorite in your Letterboxd top four. Wait, have you not seen In the Cut?
JOSH: So he turns out to be the villain?
GENMA: No, no, no. He's the stalker.
JOSH: Separate. Okay.
GENMA: Yeah, separate. Frannie has like all these—she's got the student, she's got the stalker, she's got the cop. And every time I watch it, I go, ah, that's right! It's Kevin Bacon!
JOSH: That's so cool!
GENMA: But Planes, Trains and Automobiles.
JOSH: Oh, yeah. I mean, that's a Thanksgiving rewatch. So it's like the way to ease into Thanksgiving week or watch Thanksgiving Day. John Candy, if he were alive, to this day, would have at least gotten either nominated for an Academy Award for his Lost in Translation or would have won for his Lost in Translation Bill Murray moment. Him and Bill Murray would be competing. And he really—he's the heart of that movie.
***
JOSH: And that is a big part about why I rewatch it. That and the scene where Steve Martin faces off against Edie McClurg. And, you know, goes off on the fuck tirade. Four fucking wheels in the seat. I mean, and you know, Edie McClurg's "you're fucked!" (Slim & Gemma laugh) Sooo good. So good. But also the Book of Love, you know, I can't pronounce the name of the band. But they have, the music in that movie is just out of control. It's just like the beautiful synth, you know. Sam Richardson and I bonded about that soundtrack. It's just like *chef's kiss*.
SLIM: Yeah, they're there. I've seen this when I was younger. And this is similar to Jaws where I probably had a different experience watching it as a kid. And then as an adult, it just opens your eyes to a whole new interpretation of this movie. And Steve Martin, too. I think when I was a kid, Steve Martin was like, you know, the Conan O'Brien to my parents.
JOSH: Mmmm.
SLIM: You know, he could do no wrong. He was like, you know, when they always get introduced in like, interview shows funny man, Steve Martin! But, like, it's just crazy to look back on his career. He was like, untouchable for so long and just created so many hits. And this is prime example.
JOSH: This is a prime example. And you're reminding me of a wonderful swath when he did a few dramatic roles, like one after the other. And it was such a treat to see him pop up with like, opposite like Scott Campbell and Laurel Canyon. And then like Novocaine with Laura Dern and Shopgirl later on. Like, holy shit. Like he's actually a really proficient, effective, dramatic actor, and it's so fun to watch him. I mean, I think that's such a big piece of what I'd like to do in my career is rope in comedic actors or actors that you wouldn't see doing X genre and bring them into, you know, what, what folks might consider to be a gutter genre in horror otherwise. You know, I think one of my proudest accomplishments with Werewolves is the fact that I got to, quote unquote, like rope in like Michael Chernus. And Rebecca Henderson, and Michaela Watkins into this genre, into this world. Whereas like, you know, folks like Sam and Harvey and Glenn Fleshler had sort of, you know, played in it. I mean, even Cathy Curtin too, going back to the Jeff Daniels of it all. Here's, again, actors that emote for real that actually pour their heart into it as if it were a Chekhov play. Or if it were, you know, a Hammer vampire film, they're still going to bring the tears. And I think there's just something wonderful about, you know, given the opportunity to comedic actors to come and bring the genre. Because Guillermo Del Toro actually was quoted as saying, they're operating at the top of their game, they're operating at 100%, they're already at 100% comedic, sort of capacity. Ready to kind of play jazz comedically, but they're also doing the work to play vulnerability for real and ideally the good ones not get caught trying to emote or you know, be funny emoting. So any opportunity to cross pollinate, as I call it, you know, actors into genres you might not otherwise see them in, going to keep doing that if I can!
GENMA: That's beautiful. So Planes, Trains and Automobiles I've understood to be, you know, a massive American Thanksgiving moment rewatch year after year. I'd never seen it until this week. I have seen—I know—I've seen many Steve Martin films. I'm a secret silent fan. I love his banjo playing. I love his novels. I love that he's an art collector. I love everything about Steve Martin on and off the screen. But I had not seen this film. And I think—this is this is a total, you know, swinging sideways—but a lot of movies don't age well because of the homophobia.
JOSH: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. "Those aren't pillows!"
GENMA: Yeah, yeah. "Those aren't two pillows!" But weirdly, this one while I was expecting a certain, you know, level of homophobia, it's the way that John Candy and Steve Martin play those moments gives it a kind of, you know, it's not so much homophobic. It's not so much anti-gay as, as it is "oh blah blah blah blah."
SLIM: Yeah, "I'm a big tough guy."
GENMA: It's hard to explain.
JOSH: It's not derogatory.
GENMA: Yeah, as opposed to Volunteers, when there's that terrible moment where I think everyone involved in Volunteers wishes, they could just erase. Which is, you know, when they say the F word after they hug. It's different. It's not that. It's more like, well, I'm not into that, but it's okay that other people are.
JOSH: You know, I'm sure that they had—regardless of where it netted out—but I wouldn't be surprised if, you know, folks like Candy and Martin, we're coming up with, you know, a lot of gay actors and comedians in their circle, especially in the New York City world and the SCTV world. And I'm sure they had an inherent sensitivity to it the way that, you know, Chevy Chase wouldn't necessarily because he's, you know, sociopathic. (Slim laughs) But I'm sure that's a piece of it. They're actually, you know, they have probably kept friends that are. And also, I mean, Steve Martin's the first one to be like, a comedian I remember like, let's all get away with not delivering a punch line with an F word. Yeah. And it's got this kind of respectable quality to it. So I imagine those guys, you know, kept that sensitivity to the forefront. And truly it plays like, you know, no different than kind of harmless like dad archetype.
GENMA: I wrote in my review that at this point in the pandemic, where it's, you know, it's still sort of impossible to travel anywhere for most people. That Planes, Trains and Automobiles is almost a trip I'd be glad to take right now. (Gemma & Slim laugh)
JOSH: But it really is such a great like comfort blanket rewatch. When they make it home, and he, you know, he welcomes John Candy's character into his home and that warm kind of Chicago setting, you know, McMansion. It's just like ugh, god! They made it and you're so happy for it.
GENMA: It's so beautiful to be able to see in your top for your influences as a director. Because it feels like you sit somewhere between Sam Raimi and John Hughes in the worlds that you create on screen.
JOSH: Yeah! Maybe we'll go more in the Hughes-like direction someday. There's a project hovering right now that would be a wonderful opportunity to keep the horror train kind of rolling, the horror comedy of it all. But also to imbue like some real emotion and romanticism. And like deep connected relationships. I'm excited to see how I can relay the spectrum without getting caught, as I say.
SLIM: We already know it's Darkman. You already told us.
JOSH: Yeah, it's Darkman. It's just Darkman and his wife. That's what the title is. Darkman and his Wife. (Slim laughs) Darkman and apostrophe his wife.
SLIM: The other piece of data that we crunched the numbers at Letterboxd, and your most popular review on Letterboxd is amazingly An American Werewolf in London. I love this review. It was cracking me up because I just watched Werewolves Within and then I saw this. And the first sentence is literally 'Criminally I've not watched this until last night.' And man, talk about your experience watching this movie. Because you mentioned the finale. But man, what a trip this movie is, huh?
JOSH: My jaw was on the floor. It was so ahead of its time comedically. Like the moment when Frank Oz, just his voice as the—I can't remember what he was, if he was the doctor or some specialists. But the timing of the editing and the "ah!" timbre of his like Frank Oz's voice. (Slim laughs) After the violence of it all, like after the kind of werewolf violence, it was like the most brilliant sort of trifecta that it's something that I strive for today, presently. And it has its problematic stuff. You know, Landis is definitely like, you know, a hound. The performances are great and I couldn't get over how just kind of juicy Griffin Dunn and the makeup and the framing and the mythology of the ghoul and the werewolf was—like that mythology alone is so tasty. What a wonderful example of like true sidesplitting humor and character but also great genre scare You know, still the transformation scene. You know, now having watched it in context.
SLIM: All time.
JOSH: Holds up! Big time! My jaw was on the floor.
GENMA: Speaking of finales and wrapping things up. I want to pick up on that and say, my favorite, favorite part of Werewolves Within was—no spoilers—the last ten minutes. In the last few minutes for me, like something realized on screen that I have been wanting to see for a very long time and I'm a big fan of Werewolf movies. And I can't get enough of the ones that have been coming out over the last year. Wolf of Snow Hollow, Wolfwalkers, so many great werewolf movies. Werewolves Within, yet another addition to their the canon. But it does something—no spoilers—that I've been wanting to see for a long time. And, frankly, that last ten minutes is the first ten minutes of another movie I want to watch.
JOSH: Oh, yeah, there's a wonderful—I mean, I say it's wonderful because I'm biased—but there is a prequel idea or concept that I'm dying to at least pour open about how they got there, you know? About how it came to be and about the storyline leading up into but who the hell knows? On the flip side, maybe they'll let us make a show, you know, not unlike Twin Peaks, but it's Beaverfield. And it's just more of the, you know—
SLIM: Oh man.
JOSH: The townies.
SLIM: Okay!
GENMA: Oh, that would amazing. But also, you know, What We Do In The Shadows spun out of a movie in which there are not only vampires, but also werewolves, not swearwolves. (Josh laughs) You know, those guys have been asked about doing the werewolves spin off for a long time and they're just not getting there. So the field is wide open, Josh.
JOSH: I know! Ware Wolves. What a perfect name for a fucking movie. Ware Wolves! It's so brilliant. Like guys, come on! And they did the paranormal spin off. Anyway, I want to be a part of any of it. And please include me. Holy mackerel.
(music)
GENMA: Thanks so much for listening to The Letterboxd Show and thanks to our guest this episode Josh Ruben for sharing his love of his favorite movies. Werewolves Within is out now in select theaters and on video on demand in the United States via IFC. You can also donate to Trans Lifeline using the links in our episode notes.
SLIM: You can follow Gemma, Slim—that's me—and our Letterboxd HQ page on Letterboxd using the links in our episode notes. Thanks to composing dynamos, Moniker, for the theme music Vampiros Dancoteque. And if you're enjoying the show, have guest ideas, be sure to leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. The Letterboxd Show is a TAPEDECK production.
GENMA: I hope you can join us for the next episode when we are going to… Cannes! (Slim laughs) Oh that's bad.
SLIM: I almost want to use that as the outro. (Slim & Gemma laugh)
⁂
SLIM: Welcome to The Letterboxd Show, a podcast about movies, from Letterboxd, the social network for film lovers. Each episode, host Slim—that's me—and Gemma are joined by a Letterboxd friend for a chat about their top four on Letterboxd. That's the four movies you choose as your favorite films on your Letterboxd profile. We have links in the episode notes to the movies, lists, and people we talk about so you can follow along, adding those movies to your watchlists. Today we're getting high on cactus and turning up the Yo-Yo Ma with film critic Brian Formo.
GENMA: Brian is Letterboxd's correspondent from the 74th Festival de Cannes. We are crossing live to Brian on the Riviera where he's been attending his very first Cannes Film Festival. It was touch and go for a while there. Immense pain, abdominal surgery, a five-week recovery period, vaccinations, COVID tests, he made it to France with just a week to spare. Which brings us to Brian's four favorites. Some people never change their top four. But Brian is a movie lover who changes up his favorites every month. And for the past month, for obvious reasons, Formo's four have had a medical focus. They are: Eyes Wide Shut. Master and Commander, Darkman and The Skin I Live In. Which begs me to ask: why are you people always making me watch movies about men in masks, disfigurement, and all the rest? Brian writes in his review of Eyes Wide Shut that it is 'a glorious cinematic prank'. On with the show!
(theme music ramps up, plays alone, fades out)
SLIM: Now, Brian, I love movies. I watch them all the time. But Cannes is out of my wheelhouse big time. So I'm assuming that there's probably a lot of people that love Letterboxd just like me that are still kind of unaware of what happens at Cannes, what it is, and maybe all they know about it is that there are really long, potentially awkward standing ovations. So what is Cannes to maybe people that haven't been a part of it or know about it before?
BRIAN: For people who aren't familiar, I would say it's probably the, the snootiest Film Fest to a lot of people because, you know, you might hear about like, oh, you can't—women can't wear heels—or sorry, they have to wear heels on the red carpet. Their tuxedos are required for premieres, etc, etc. And a lot of the films that play here, a lot of American films skip it pretty largely. So it's not, while there are celebrities here, it's very, very, very international. And so if you're not keyed into and love international film, which as Bong Joon-ho who, you know, people love Parasite, but it started here at Cannes and it won Palme d'Or here. And you know, if you can get over the subtitle barrier, Cannes is a launching pad for so many international films. And also a number of those films, because it is so international, like, what you see here—now something like Annette comes out a couple weeks later, but a lot of these movies that you see here, it is kind of like the launch pad and they might not come out for a year or two in other markets. So, so much of it depends on kind of how people and critics and buyers view the films here. And there's also a side component, that's actually really large, that even if you're maybe not into "film snobbery" (Slim chuckles) is that a lot of movies are packaged here. So whenever you're watching a number of indie films or international films, at the beginning of the credits for each movie, you'll see numerous production companies dropping logos and lots of countries saying like "thanks to the Belgium Film Fund" etc. at the very start of a film and a lot of those various components from, and funding from different nations come from when all the buyers get together at Cannes to put up various different types of money for the titles.
GENMA: 74 years of the Cannes Film Festival. I don't know how many years you've been in the film appreciation business, but this is your first one. Why is it held so much charm and mystique for you? And why did you battle surgery and a pandemic to get there?
BRIAN: Well, I think—and going back to the international focus of it all—is once you start diving into international film, whether it's through Criterion or other collections, and you like look up information afterward, you'll see oftentimes that a lot of these films premiered at Cannes. And so that is kind of like the first, maybe, seed of awareness is when you're a burgeoning cinephile, you just kind of see that over and over and over. More than any other film festivals, maybe outside of Sundance, but Sundance is largely very American. And I think that, yeah, Cannes, once you start exploring films from Italy, films from South Korea, films from Australia, films from everywhere, you oftentimes will see Cannes as premiere whether it's in competition, or just in certain regard, or they have all these different avenues of being shown.
GENMA: But here's the thing, like, having never been I'm so fascinated by, by the, I guess the— heh—audience interactions, the likes of which we, the rest of the world really only sees at midnight screenings of Rocky Horror or whatever. So what's, what's it actually like being in the room with one of those ridiculously long ovations or indeed watching people walk out of a screening?
BRIAN: The applause is very real and quantifiable. The boos, kind of confirmed what I thought before I came, which is that is very overblown, like you hear if one person boos you will hear like, "Oh, this movie got booed at Cannes" but it could literally just be one person. But to have like a fourteen-minute standing ovation, you know, there's got to be a lot of people willing to do that. I guess there could be one guy doing that for—or lady—doing that for fifteen minutes. But that has not been anything that I have seen. But the boo, like, yeah, it's like one or two. And it could be you know, that'll get tweets, it'll get written up, because you know, people kind of want to eat that up. Because again, a lot of these films that show here, don't actually get released for quite some time thereafter. So if you, yeah, but I do think that it is extremely over reported. Now, the amount of walkouts that I've seen in Cannes actually did surprise me because I have been at a number of film festivals. And including in Europe, I've been to Venice, and I didn't see as many walkouts at Venice, as I have in Cannes. And sometimes, I'm very—I don't know what people are thinking when they're leaving. But there's been a couple movies that are quite long and slow. And we're at the two hour point and we all know there's fifteen minutes left and people are leaving. It's like, if you put two hours in, why are you leaving right now? But as for the long, long ovations, I don't have time for that. (Slim laughs) I'll, I'll, I'll clap for a little bit, but like I'm going, I'm not staying there for the duration of the ovation.
SLIM: Fourteen minutes is like—I'll fall on the sword here—fourteen minutes is a long time to do anything, let alone a standing ovation. I'm not even sure if I've given a standing ovation to anything in my life! Let alone a movie for fifteen minutes.
GENMA: Fourteen minutes as a whole other short film you could be watching! (Slim laughs)
BRIAN: I don't love, I don't love the act of clapping either and I feel like, I don't know. Maybe, I feel like the Nicole Kidman look of like the way she's clapping—
SLIM: Yes!
BRIAN: At the Oscars has made me self conscious about how, what do I look like when I clap? (Slim laughs) And I am sure if I did it for ten, twelve, fourteen minutes that I would look ridiculous.
SLIM: When you're clapping for that long your hands don't remember how to clap. Your hands just start doing strange things, your body probably starts convulsing. But we have, we'll come back to Cannes in a bit because the main topic of the show, obviously, is your four favorites on Letterboxd. Your top four, we mentioned it at the top of the show, your number one for this month anyway, since you change them every month, is—it stars two actors that are very hotly debated on this show.
GENMA: I can't believe we're already here again.
SLIM: Tom Cruise. Nicole Kidman. And also Stanley Kubrick. Eyes Wide Shut. 3.9 average on Letterboxd. It has 4,000 fans! (music from Eyes Wide Shut fades in) So 4,000 other people have this in their top four are favorites on Letterboxd. And Tom, our dear sweet Tom, plays a doctor in this movie.
GENMA: As he tells literally everybody else in the movie, every five minutes. (Slim laughs)
BRIAN: Which is one of my favorite moments. (Gemma laughs)
SLIM: I've never heard of a doctor showing a kind of doctor badge before I saw this movie and Tom made it happen almost every other scene.
GENMA: And like does it even work? Does it even—
SLIM: I don't know.
GENMA: Does it even work to flash your doctor card? 'I'm a doctor.' (Slim laughs)
SLIM: So Eyes Wide Shut is Stanley Kubrick's last film and you know the marketing ahead of this movie was very vague, a lot of people, if you haven't seen it, you might not even know what it's about. But mainly it follows a long night in Tom Cruise's marriage as he searches for you know, love, otherwise and gets mixed up into a host of other things that maybe he really regrets.
GENMA: Or, I would, I would simply say as he fails to just have a conversation with his wife. (Slim laughs) And does literally everything else he can to avoid just having one conversation with his wife, who is by the way a luminous, mostly naked, Nicole Kidman. Brian, have you ever rolled a blunt right when Nicole Kidman rolls her blunt at the 25-minute mark and watched the rest of the film in that state?
BRIAN: Uh, no I have not. But the day that we are recording this, at least for Slim and I, it's different for Gemma, is actually the day that Eyes Wide Shut was released in theaters, so.
SLIM: Holy cow!
BRIAN: It's very appropriate that we're talking about it right now. I was there actually opening night for Eyes Wide Shut. I would, I was seventeen years old and so I had just barely become old enough to even go watch it.
SLIM: Geeze. How did you feel experiencing it? How did you feel walking out of the theater?
BRIAN: To be honest, that viewing was quite dramatic because I actually took a date.
SLIM: Oh god.
SLIM: And it was someone that I had a huge crush on for years and that was our first date. I was like, you know, I wrote movie reviews for our high school paper. And I was like, you know, it's the last Stanley Kubrick movie, I really want to see this. She was very, very, very uncomfortable and I was having to check in on her on her all the time and I was like nervous the basically the entire screening. I was A, nervous just like going out but like B, that I was nervous, you know when you're sitting next to someone you can tell they despise it? (Slim laughs) It's one of my most hated feelings in the world. (Gemma laughs)
GENMA: Wow!
BRIAN: Which is why I like watching movies alone and a lot of the time and then when I love it I never want to go watch it with someone else. And maybe that's why, maybe Eyes Wide Shut was the movie that implanted that in my brain of like, I should test things out before inviting another individual to go with me. (Brian laughs)
GENMA: Just had an idea for a whole new podcast series which is like "bad movie dates". Because I'm remembering going on a first and only date to see Jeremy Irons have wax poured on his tummy by Madonna or something. Does this make sense? Is that a movie called Damage?
SLIM: That sounds like a dream. That sounds like a fever dream. (Slim laughs)
GENMA: Oh, that was a first and last date for sure.
BRIAN: I mean, I've been broken up with on the way to the movie theater and then we still watched the movie. (Brian & Gemma laugh)
SLIM: Oh my god!
BRIAN: That was a long time ago.
SLIM: What was the movie? What was the movie?
BRIAN: That was Where the Wild Things Are, which I was like, you know, this might lift our spirits. But that movie was all about therapy. It was James Gandolfini being upset that he was being broken up with. (Gemma laughs) It was literally the argument that we just had, that we then saw acted out by CGI and—well practical costumed beasts. But so back to with Eyes Wide Shut that first viewing was, so like, I was so out of my element and kind of like out of my body, out of my mind, that I didn't really grow to appreciate it until I had seen it the second time which would have been in college a few years later. And since then, I've probably seen it four—four times. I love rewatching movies, but I don't rewatch movies as much as a number of people I love on Letterboxd do. Just like, dang, you watched Portrait of a Lady on Fire twelves times in the last like two months! I definitely spaced them out over a couple years and they age with them, I guess.
SLIM: That's an interesting way to put it. I have a few favorites that I love that I don't want to watch. Because I've watched a few favorites and then you watch them too soon too close together I start to pick them apart. You know, the flaws become ever more obvious on like seventh viewing and then I start to question, is this not a good movie? (Slim laughs) Is this a bad movie that I shouldn't love anymore? So I totally appreciate that.
BRIAN: Well, that's something I think that is a big part of festival movies as well where you kind of like have a festival high. And if you watch it like a couple months later, you're like, actually it wasn't as good as I thought. It is definitely a very real thing. But the intro to this movie, I do like that you brought up how often he brings out his doctor card. Because I think that that's like such a great entry point into his character. Like the whole reason why he is, well, part of the argument with Nicole Kidman starts she says that she's like fantasized about this sailor before they got married. She asks him, she, like interrogates him about whether he's like, had thoughts about other women or like when he is examining them, etc. And he says no, and part of the reason he says is "because of you". And she gets very upset because she's like that, I don't have anything to do with this like, you're you're using me as the excuse not to do something. And I feel like the doctor card is an entry point into like, he's so concerned with how other people think about him, that he knows that by saying he's a doctor, you're instantly kind of given a certain amount of goodwill of like, oh, this is someone I can trust. This is someone maybe heroic or like, this is a good person. I think that that is like essentially what the reason why he pulls out that card—which again, I don't even know if this exists. (Brian laughs) These types of cards exist, but or maybe he just made one himself and like, he's the only card carrying doctor of like, "Look, I'm a doctor look at this card that I have." (Gemma laughs) But that's something that I think is like a great little touch in the movie, the fact that he does it so much. And it's always kind of like to grant entry to something where he's basically testing if he can actually do something on his own or if he's just like, guided by this fear of being judged by other people.
GENMA: All I said in my review of Eyes Wide Shut—and thank you for the excuse to watch it. I didn't, I didn't completely hate it. But I'll tell you what I hated. That piano score. Oh my god, if I never, ever, have to hear that particular note of G played on a piano like that again. (sound of piano note of G plays over and over)
SLIM: You know for sure I'm gonna edit that into the segment right here playing behind your complaint. (Gemma laughs)
GENMA: I was gonna, I was gonna bring my electric piano and play it just for you and Brian and make that the rest of the episode and see how you like it. So thanks for that!
BRIAN: I do specifically remember watching that in the theater on my terrible date and everyone laughing so hard every time that key was hit. I was not, mostly I was still just like, so nervous about everything going on. (Brian & Gemma laugh) But I specifically remember—I mean, so I grew up in Boise, Idaho, which we have a independent film theater, it's called The Flicks. Shout out to The Flicks. I'm glad they still exist. They showed a lot of great movies, but by and large, this was a you know, an off the beaten trail type of movie for the Cineplex in Boise, so I think that repeated keynote made everyone just be like, okay, I felt weird about this all along. Now I can like giggle because like, this is too much. I actually like it.
GENMA: There was way too much for me and I like the piano, don't get me wrong. (music from Master and Commander fades in) But speaking of soundtracks, I think that we should move to your second film, which I had never seen that I'd seen a lot of chat about because it became over the last year of lockdown one of those, I guess, comfort rewatches for a lot of Letterboxd members for one reason or another and I now understand. Peter Weir's fourth-highest-rated movie on Letterboxd, which is Master and Commander starring Russell Crowe. What put this into your four favorites?
BRIAN: Well, so yeah, the theme, the theme was that I chose for this was doctors 'cause I had just had surgery after a couple months of intense pain. And so it was kind of my, I don't know about ode, but maybe an ode to my surgeon. Because my favorite character in this movie is Paul Bettany's character who—well, there's great rapport between him and Russell Crowe, for sure. And I think the dynamic between basically like a war hawk and a very curious like, he's a surgeon, but he's also very curious about Darwinism and science in general. And it's kind of like, the way that they work together is kind of how government should work where you have like this very strong person who will get things done, but you also have someone who's very curious in the way that they kind of battle with each other a little bit because they respect each other and they hear each other out. And I think that, that that interplay is for me is what makes the movie really special because otherwise I feel like it would just be like cannonballs and versus France. And it'd be rather rapid and exciting but it's the surgeon character that I think grounds it into something that is a little. a little more interesting.
SLIM: This took place three years after Gladiator. This has always been a movie that I had not seen of Russell Crowe. Say what you will about him today, but man, he had quite an era around this timeframe. And it finally was on Prime Video for those of us in the state. So I was finally able to sit down and watch this ad of this week. And I loved it. I love Master and Commander I was kind of blown away. I have some friends that speak its praises quite often. And I was like yeah, whatever. Russell Crowe at sea, I'm not watching that. (Slim laughs) And boy was I wrong! His hair in this movie is so luscious. My god! He looks amazing!
GENMA: Like is it his hair? Is it a wig? I don't care. It is a thing of beauty. It was, I also caught on Disney+, weirdly enough, in New Zealand. So that was exciting. And again, same thing, a film that so many people had spoken of that I never caught. I don't know why. And I know there's been a lot of talk this week especially around Cannes and access to screeners versus screenings in cinemas. And you know, if a movie is good, it'll work on any screen. But this is one film I wish, wish, wish I had seen on the big screen when it came out. Where were you when you saw it, Brian?
BRIAN: I was on my couch. (Gemma & Brian & Slim laugh) I also had skipped this back. I was—so, when this came out is when I was at the height of my film snobbery like at university and only watching French New Wave and the Czech, the Czech New Wave and like all of that stuff. So yeah, Russell Crowe was in, actually—I could be wrong. But I think they were back to back, Gladiator and A Beautiful Mind Best Pictures. And at that point I just kind of like okay, like I am losing interest a little bit in Russell Crowe but I am actually very annoyed that I had maybe thought that back then. Because there's something very early on, his weevil joke, which he tells perfectly!
***
CAPTAIN JACK AUBREY: Do you see those two weevils doctor?
DR. STEPHEN MATURIN: I do.
CAPTAIN JACK AUBREY: Which would you choose?
DR. STEPHEN MATURIN: Neither, there's not a scrap of difference between them. They're the same species of curculio.
CAPTAIN JACK AUBREY: If you had to choose, if you were forced to make a choice, if there was no other response.
DR. STEPHEN MATURIN: Well, then, if you're going to push me—I would choose the right hand weevil, it has significant advantage in both length and breadth.
CAPTAIN JACK AUBREY: There! I have you! You're completely dished. Do you not know know that in the service, one must always choose the lesser of two weevils. (laughter)
***
BRIAN: It's such like an entry point of like, yes, of course like he'd be great in something like The Nice Guys and like he needs to do a little bit more comedy. Because he had—it's just like one line joke but just everything about the way that he tells it and his smirk afterward is just perfect, perfect timing.
GENMA: We have a weird relationship with Russell Crowe, us New Zealanders, because he is a New Zealander who rejected us for Australia, which is—I don't know how much you know about New Zealand/Australian relations.
SLIM: Educate us.
GENMA: Well, while we are upset that he's left us, we will constantly remind everybody including Slim and Brian that Russell is in fact New Zealander. (Slim laughs) And yet, I watched Master and Commander and all, all of that, like everything was forgiven. Russell Crowe in a blousey white shirt. (Slim laughs) With that head of hair. I like that shot of him standing, just holding, holding the whatever the front masters called.
SLIM: What people don't realize is that we had a Slack DM this week and Gemma was sharing, you know, 1980s Russell band videos, music videos. So the deep cut that she mentioned is quite real and it hasn't healed yet. (Gemma laughs)
GENMA: There are movies you finish and you go, well, that was good. And then there are movies you finished and you want to dive immediately back into that world. So I can see why everybody's craving a sequel.
SLIM: Shall we venture back to Cannes. There's a lot of anticipated movies that Brian, you saw already, that us in the States will probably still have to wait a little bit for. One of those that jumps out at me at least is The French Dispatch. And maybe that's probably one of the more mainstream movies that for those unfamiliar with Cannes are also waiting for. That's the next Wes Anderson film. It's got probably one of the biggest casts of all time, maybe since Ocean's Eleven. But what's your vibe on The French Dispatch? Brian, you've seen it?
BRIAN: I think The French Dispatch is a lot of fun. What I liked about it the most is how Wes Anderson was starting to use different visual language. Like it's still very, very design oriented. But because he's making an anthology film while—if people don't know that know that term, like there are multiple stories, they're not necessarily connected as like one plot dragging you all the way through, the plot is just hit this magazine exist. Basically, it's the New Yorker, except it's in France in a made up town kind of like how he made up a country for Grand Budapest Hotel, so that he can kind of just make everything look like he wants. But he uses black and white, he uses a lot of negative space, which is something that I love in movies, but you don't really get as much from Wes Anderson because he just fills every area of the screen all the time. But this one, he does lean in a little bit more to the French New Wave aesthetic for a couple of the stories which includes a little more patience in the shots and and a lot more negative space. But you still get the like kind of birthday cake look in many other areas. Because it is an anthology film, I think it is, and it's stuffed with so many details, like it's something that I would actually like to watch in a slower rate. Like I know how some people like that you can watch it faster on Netflix. I would kind of like the watch a little slower because there's so much packed in and the dialogue is so quick. Sometimes like you'll be watching it and I'd be like wait, I don't even—who is this person? Because it's like so quick because the stories themselves are very quick. But having said all that, I actually think, I guess it's technically the second one because Owen Wilson gets kind of like a little bit of an epilogue. But the one that Benicio del Toro is the main character in with Adrian Brody, Tilda Swinton and Léa Seydoux, that one is so strong that a part of me wishes that maybe he had just made an entire movie from that, that section. Because it is the strongest story and it is the most fleshed out. And the other ones are kind of like, they're really fun but they're really, they're really quick and they're not as fleshed out as the one with Benicio del Toro. And part of that, I think, is just Benicio del Toro, if you're familiar with his work, he is a slower actor just like with how his rate of speech, his use of his body, I think there's just something, his physicality of being in scenes for Wes Anderson just kind of makes everything register more.
SLIM: The other topic that is curious to me, and is also been some of the discourse, maybe every time this Festival comes around, which is seeing a movie—and I think this came up with Demi. Seeing a movie before everyone else can, you know, months before, you're able to have your own newly formed opinion on a movie before there is any kind of, you know, mindshare about a film. That seems so weird to me. Does that go into your mind when you're seeing a movie ahead of 99% of the audience that will eventually see it?
BRIAN: Um, not so much. The only time that that is actually entered my mind was actually when I covered the Venice Film Festival in 2017 for Collider, and I really did not like Three Billboards, and everyone else did.
SLIM: Same.
BRIAN: But I was the only negative review on Rotten Tomatoes for that for three months.
SLIM: Oh my god.
BRIAN: I kept getting like weird emails from people who like follow Oscars about like, "You ruined it's 100% blah, blah, blah." (Slim laughs) That's just like—and then when the movie like actually comes out it gets like a ton of negative reviews. But it was, that was a very bizarre experience and kind of like weird entry point into how like, you know, some people you know, love the Oscars so much that they kind of just want to know what is big before they even see anything. And that's like something that I'm not so sure about, but that's something that at Cannes, I know, sort of like the last—2019 Cannes had some Oscar winners. Obviously Parasite won best picture but also Once Upon a Time… in Hollywood. But that is very rare for Cannes to kind of have like that Oscar pull through later, many months later. Mostly because a lot of the ones that the US studios are going to push really hard they save for the fall. But because of that, I think that there is a little bit more, I guess purity to your response as opposed to like, okay, ultimately how is this gonna land for everyone? But I will say this. And I think this is very real about every festival, is that if you watch a couple movies in a row that you don't like or kind of—let's say you watch some stinkers. And every festival has some stinkers. And so you're kind of just waiting for a movie to wow you. And sometimes there might be an overreaction, particularly if it's early in the festival where—I mean, this is also the first time I've been in a movie theater since First Cow in March 2020. So that alone, just like how that changes my viewing experience was quite remarkable. And then I also was going multiple times a day. And I think just like the desire to be wowed in a theater at this festival itself might be, might have, you might see some like, okay, like everyone kind of overreacted to this, that I think has more to do with just like the excitement of being here. And also not maybe seeing something pretty crummy earlier in the day. Or just wanting to be wowed by something. Because I know the internet's have come back. But a lot of the films that have been released in theaters, there hasn't been anything that grabbed me until I came to the festival. And I think that some reactions might seem like a little overdone. And even though the film might be very good, and I think that that's a part of the reason why.
GENMA: Before we move on to your final two four favorites, if that makes any sense. Actually, even before what I'm about to ask you I've got some very, very fresh news to drop from Letterboxd HQ, which is two years on from the power of Parasite at Cannes 2019, it has just become the first film to have half a million five-stars logged on Letterboxd.
SLIM: Wooww.
GENMA: It just doesn't stop! It's an absolute steamroller.
SLIM: I don't want to be left out of the breaking news. So I can now reveal that Julia Ducournau's Titane has just won the Palme d'Or! And Asghar Farhadi's A Hero has won the Grand Prix. So Brian, where did these films sit with you?
BRIAN: I keep like jockeying back and forth about which one I think is the best film at the festival. But they couldn't be any more different. There's so like completely opposite. A Hero, Asghar Farhadi made A Separation. And it's, it's a story about a man who is coming out, he's on leave from his prison sentence, which is something I guess that you can do in Iran. 'Cause he's in a debtors prison. And so he gets out on leave, and he attempts to like gather some money together so that he can absolve his credit. And it's basically, he uses the press in a type of way. But it's navigating how like small lies becomes something that, well, basically withholding a truth becomes a lie, even though it's not maybe an actual lie. But it becomes perceived as one as kind, it's kind of like a ball rolling down the hill of all these things kind of going wrong within his story, even though his story is rather factual. And the other one that I was blown away by was Titane. Definitely something that I feel like you should go in knowing very, very little because there are some moments in this movie that surprised me more than any movie has in a long time. But I should warn it also is very, very intense. There's a lot of body horror stuff, also some body comedy. The reason why it's exciting is because they all kind of like build to something that is kind of cathartic. And it becomes kind of sweet in the end, which is totally unexpected. So there there are payoffs and she's very smart throughout about what, she's not just doing something to shock people on and that's it. Everything that she's doing has a very specific purpose toward the theme that you kind of attach yourself to later in the movie. But those are the two that wowed me here. (music from Darkman fades in)
SLIM: Yeah, those two are definitely now at the top of my watchlist. But is it time to go back to your Letterboxd favorites with Darkman. 3.3 average on Letterboxd, 24 fans. Last week, Josh Ruben had this in his top four as well. And this has entered your top four also. Liam Neeson horribly disfigured, so it is carrying the curse of movies for Gemma of disfigured men that must wear a mask. The streak continues. But what is it about Darkman that you also find endearing? And where does this rate on the scale of superhero movies for you?
BRIAN: Well, what I find endearing about it is it's kind of the most Sam Raimi in the ways that I really like and enjoy. Like, his, I don't know, there's probably a term for this, but I don't I'm not sure what it is, but it's like Dutch-angle push in, he just is doing all the time in this. I like how there are some, I mean, there's one actor in particular that I'm not familiar with at all, Larry Drake, who just gets to chew scenery. He's the main villain in this. I love when a movie like this kind of grants a lesser known actor to have all the naughty stuff you've given to them. He chops off fingers with his cigar cutter, that's what I'm alluding to.
SLIM: So good.
BRIAN: But as for, the pink-elephant scene is really just kind of what pushes us over into like, I kinda love how bizarre and silly this movie is, which is just Liam Neeson freaking out at the carnival, trying to win something for Frances McDormand. And it just shows Sam Raimi's creativity of there's, there's like panels falling out behind him as is like, basically his mind is exploding and he wants to like beat up this carnival man over this stupid pink elephant. That is, when I first watched the movie, that was when like, because beforehand I was like, okay, this is kind of fun, but I was like, alright, this is a little bit like next level ridiculous in a way that is very, very fun. And again, very Sam Raimi. But it is a movie that I really like, and I have not seen in anyone's top four. So I saw that you guys have discussed that last week. And I was like, wow, what are the odds? (Brian & Gemma laugh)
SLIM: I know! I was thinking the same thing.
GENMA: All I'll say, which I didn't get to say in the previous episode, is that I really struggled with Larry Drake in this movie, because for me, he will always be the sweet and wonderful Benny from L.A. Law and nobody else and it's very, very hard to watch Benny chop fingers off a person.
SLIM: L.A. Law. Wow. (music from The Skin I Live In fades in)
GENMA: Yeah, speaking of disfiguring other people's bodies, we move to the second most popular film from Spain on the whole of Letterboxd and the second most popular film of Spanish filmmaking hero, Pedro Almodóvar, The Skin I Live In. Highly rated, highly controversial. Coming up to its tenth anniversary very soon. Sits on a ton of Letterboxd horror lists, including Evan's Horror Movies by Gay Directors. Sits in a list called High Art Genre Movies. On a dysphorroria list—that's quite hard to say. Movies That Are Better When You Don't Know Anything About Them. Actually plenty of overlap on lists that also include Eyes Wide Shut for many obvious reasons. It's also on Letterboxd power member Sally Jane Black's trans list but she hated it and for very good reason. It is in your top four Brian, explain yourself.
BRIAN: I think that it is, I mean it's highly entertaining and keeps you guessing but I think part of the reason why I react positively to this and this is—I'm pausing because I'm trying to make sure that I say this in a way that is digestible. There are a lot of, I've seen a number of rape-revenge movies. And I think what makes The Skin I Live In ultimately extremely interesting is how it basically puts that in a box twice. Because the, I mean, I guess like to describe that even further would be giving away some plot points but I think that while it's kind of remarkable that ultimately whose side you become on by the end of the movie, and even though that might not sit well with a lot of people and I definitely understand that. I also, like I am vocal even on this like Letterboxd and everywhere else else in life, like I was abused when I was younger as well. So I definitely understand the reservation to getting, to where the movie goes. But for, for me, the way that like, who you feel sympathy for in the end is kind of a remarkable feat to pull off. I think.
SLIM: I think your read the Wiki for this movie, maybe last year, or the year before. I think because it was on a Letterboxd list of like, You won't be the same after you see this movie or something, one of those lists. And even knowing the plot twist, you know, the reveal of something that happens in this movie. I feel like I still wasn't quite prepared for this film. I can't think of any other movie that I've seen. Like this. I don't know Gemma, how do you feel about The Skin I Live In?
GENMA: Almodóvar is so much fun. I enjoy a lot of his romps and I adore Pain and Glory, adore it. But I had avoided The Skin I Live In, partly the poster, and pretty much mostly other people's warnings that it will make you quite uncomfortable. And I tend to gravitate towards things that delight and surprise and make me laugh. I guess I prepared myself in advance by—and thanks for sharing Brian, by diving into a few Letterboxd, non-spoilery reviews by members I admire and feel in some way connected to. To just get a sense of where they sit with it before I watched, which I don't often do with films, usually I just want to go in blind and then work out my thoughts afterwards and then find people who have other things to say and you know, build a picture from there. But in this case, I guess, it's to do with and Ella Kemp wrote a beautiful essay for us about content consideration and what people might want to know going in rather than coming out. And so it was, it was sort of a work of content consideration for me to prepare myself in some way but even having said that, there is no way, unless you have the plot spoiled for you, that you can truly be prepared for how The Skin I Live In plays out. And yeah, I really, I then went back and revisited Sally Jane Black's review and a few other reviews to sort of understand the elements of misogyny and transphobia. But Brian, what you have just said has really, really helped me land in a place of peace with this film and it's weird place within Almodóvar's filmography.
BRIAN: I will say so there's something that doesn't sit well with me each time that I've watched it and I'm not even sure that it really needs to be in there. I remember in the theater being kind of put off by this but like the whole—I don't know if it's just because like Almodóvar needs a character like this but everything with Tiger I feel like doesn't work.
SLIM: Yeah.
GENMA: Agree.
BRIAN: And I think that it makes the viewing experience which is already going to get a little rough, maybe a little too rough.
GENMA: Yeah.
BRIAN: I think like that's that's the only part of the movie that definitely makes me quite uncomfortable. Other areas make me uncomfortable but in interesting ways and ways their own kind of like working through my feelings or what does this mean? Or like what you know, various things about consent, etc. The whole, the whole everything with Tiger is just, it's just too much.
GENMA: I would just love to jump in because Josh Ruben, talking about him and in Darkman and everything else last week. We talked a lot with him about why in his promo for his film Werewolves Within. He's been supporting, encouraging people to support Trans Lifeline and since we're talking about Sally Jane Black, and since she has been a patron of Letterboxd for a long time. A couple of days ago, she posted up a post on Letterboxd just simply entitled Surgery, and just basically as fundraising and asking the Letterboxd community to support fundraising for surgery that she has finally arrived at. And she's written more words, as she writes, than she can count on being trans, trans representation dysphoria, and surgery. "Some trans folks don't need surgery. Some do. I do more than anything you can imagine." So the link for that fundraiser will be in the notes for this episode. And I just want to shout out Sally Jane Black and say I'm so grateful that her incredibly deep writings on films like this exist on Letterboxd because that's usually the first place I go, when, when I have unsettled questions out of a movie viewing, such as The Skin I Live In.
BRIAN: I would definitely second that. Sally Jane was one of the very first members that I found on Letterboxd that was, I mean, A) who had seen so many movies that I'd never heard of that is just like adding to my watchlist after watchlist after watchlists, but also provided like such, I mean, well thought out thoughts and interesting viewpoints that maybe I had not considered and that definitely through Sally Jane's posts, was able to, you know, find a much larger trans community on Letterboxd, which is one of my favorite aspects of Letterboxd, because that's so under represented within the print world that I've been in for such a long time. And it's, it's very vibrant. It's very profound on Letterboxd and I love that aspect of that. And it does, a number of those reviews do make me kind of go back and think. And that is something that I did with The Skin I Live In as well, as well after. And I think they're all, all the criticisms are, are definitely valid and onpoint as well. It deserves its divisiveness.
SLIM: We have one movie that we want to close out with and it's from the section on Letterbox that's rated higher than average. (music from Babe fades in) And I think this is popped up also on a few other episodes. Babe: Pig in the City. (Brian chuckles) You have rated—I don't know what you were expecting me to say. But I guess Babe wasn't it. Four and a half stars. And that is rated higher against the average on Letterboxd, which I think is at a 2.95?
GENMA: Yeah, I mean it's incorrect, let's be honest, yeah.
SLIM: Let me run the numbers here. (Gemma & Slim laugh) Last movie to talk about, what's your fond memories of Babe? And and why does that rate so highly compared to the average for you?
BRIAN: Well, I mean, it rates more highly. Just because George Miller is a genius. And I liked Babe, the first one. But I think it's a little more modeling and Babe: Pig in the City has a little bit more punk edge. I mean, he has like pink poodles and dog collars. And I don't know, there's something about the fear of a rural person going to the city. And it kind of like plays that out in ways that—I grew up in Idaho, and like my, every one of my family is still afraid of cities. And like, like my mom went to like pick her up at the airport in LA, she's just like, so tense, because like, we're in LA driving. And it's like, no, like, I do this all the time. It's not that hard. But like there is this, like, fear of cities, from rural areas that plays out and kind of like mad cap kind of ridiculous ways. And ultimately, they learn things from the city and the city learns a little bit from them as well. (Gemma laughs) And they're, you know, there's balloons dropping, which is something that George Miller loves to do. That's a great visual. I just think it's a lot of fun. And I've never understood the dislike for that. Because like, what I love about sequels is when they do something very different from the first and that's something I guess that's why a lot of people underrate it. But like why do we want to watch the second thing be the exact same as the first? Like, it's always more fun and exciting if it's, it's a little bit different. And also, basically because George Miller kind of ghost directed a lot of Babe and had some arguments with the, with the director—
SLIM: With the pig? (Slim & Brian laugh)
BRIAN: About it as well. And so ultimately, like Babe: Pig in the City is I feel like it's kind of like what he set out, wanted to make with Babe. And now he gets to make it and he gets to put it to rest. But also, I mean, I'll have to commend you guys for choosing that because, I mean, I'm gonna look like a Babe, like the biggest Babe lover on earth because it's the header of my Twitter is Nicole Kidman and Kate Winslet with Babe. (Gemma laughs)
GENMA: I mean, why wouldn't it be? From your rated higher than average, we could have chosen Marie Antoinette but you wrote about that in one of your Cannes diaries. I recommend everyone read it. We could have chose a Magic Mike XXL. We could have chosen Crash. We could have chosen another Russell Crowe starrer, Noah. But no, we need to talk about Babe: Pig in the City. And that just gives me an opportunity to shout out another pig related rural person goes into the city, in this case Portland, Oregon movie that's just out this week and I don't know if either of you have caught it yet, but it's Michael Sarnoski's Pig starring Nicolas Cage.
SLIM: It's on my watchlist, you better believe it.
GENMA: Unexpected. Everyone will say this. That was not what I expected. It's definitely one of those ones, I guess, it's better to go in, as everyone always says, knowing nothing about. But I would like to qualify that by saying, that it's not an action movie. Just know that. It's not an action genre movie. And I'm saying that, I'm spoiling the genre, because I spent the entire time watching it on edge. It was a completely different film. And then I didn't sleep for four hours afterwards. Not because of any horror, but because my, my psyche was unsettled by an expectation of a genre that never came. It was a tonal—and this is, I guess this is the thing with Nic Cage, right, is you never know what you're going to get, so you should not expect anything but.
SLIM: Some people are calling this the spiritual sequel to Babe: Pig in the City. (Brian & Gemma laugh)
GENMA: Some people—being you! (Gemma & Slim laugh)
BRIAN: That is probably where a third Babe would go, it'd be a lot of intense reflection on life. (Brian laughs) Many decades late. (Slim laughs)
GENMA: I love that you've finally made it to Cannes in real life, Brian. after years of wanting to go there. And then of course, last year, your plans were dashed. And I guess if we're going to be supremely progressively liberal in this moment, and inclusive and intersectional, it would be to acknowledge the privilege of being able to be at Cannes in person where so many others can't be. But I think it's also important for the listeners to know that these were plans you had last year that were dashed, and that you almost didn't make it this year because of your medical emergency. And so just congratulations on making it. Congratulations on showing up. I'm sorry your tuxedo has never come out of the, of the closet this time round.
BRIAN: Oh, I'm fine with that. I'm not even sure if it fits anymore. (Gemma & Brian laugh) To be honest.
GENMA: We are so grateful for having had you on the ground reporting in on the daily and I highly recommend everyone read your diary entries on our Festiville HQ because they're not just reviews, you paint the picture for us of what it's like to be in Cannes—I was gonna say post-pandemic, but we're still in the thick of it. So thank you, thank you for your sacrifice slash privilege.
BRIAN: Yeah, thank you for having me. I actually, so I got my last, I'm vaccinated, fully vaccinated. But I got my last Covid test yesterday which I was actually nervous about, because that's the one that like reentering the states. So I was like, well, hopefully didn't run into anything here. But I'm in the clear. And yeah, to the access of festivals, I think there's a lot to learn from how like New York Film Fest, etc did last year, which opened up to a lot of people. But also like with Cannes as well, just like how the ticketing aspect of it made it so that there was less of a hierarchy than other years before. And I think that that's an area, I did open this by saying, you know, Cannes is the snootiest film festival like they, the movie I'm looking forward to the most of this year is Power of the Dog and they offered that but like it won't play just because it's a Netflix movie. And it would have to be out of competition. So in the same way that like Cannes is kind of launching this attack on that, there's ways to be more modern that Cannes is not doing and I think like opening up to having more people to view from not being present is one of those areas. And hopefully they can do that, because I think you know film festivals should be much more accessible from here on.
(The Letterboxd Show theme music Vampiros Dancoteque by Moniker fades in, plays alone, fades down)
GENMA: Thanks so much for listening to The Letterboxd Show and thanks to our guest this episode, Brian Formo for sharing his love of his favorite movies. You can read Brian's daily diaries from Cannes on our Festival HQ page, which you should be following because that's where the Letterboxd buzz is during every festival season. Next episode we have another special guest direct from Cannes to talk about sensuous cinema. You might want to watch Lingua Franca before then, Slim.
SLIM: I'll add it to my watchlist right now. After I do that, just a reminder, you can follow Gemma, Slim, that's me and our HQ page on Letterboxd, using the links in the episode notes. Thanks to composing dynamos Moniker for their theme music 'Vampiros Dancoteque'. And if you are enjoying the show and maybe have guest ideas, be sure to leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. Quick shout out to a few friends that did, slingermanjones, Danny, McKenzie, Ben, and searchingforsoul as they left a review letting us know that they're digging the new format. The Letterboxd show is a TAPEDECK production.
GENMA: And that's it. Although, I have one final question for you, Slim.
SLIM: Uh oh.
GENMA: Which weevil would you choose? (Slim laughs)
SLIM: I would choose that luscious blonde hair, for God's sake.
(music)
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TORIA DILLIER: Mr. Président, est-ce que vous pouvez nous dire, quelle cera le Premier Prix? Can you tell me which prize is the First Prize?
SPIKE LEE: Yes, I can. (laughter)
TORIA DILLIER: Cool. (applause)
SPIKE LEE: The film that won the Palme D'or is Titane.
TORIA DILLIER: Wait, wait, wait, no! (confusion ensues with laughter and applause)
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SLIM: Welcome to The Letterboxd Show, a podcast about movies from Letterboxed: the social network for film lovers. Each episode has Slim—that's me—and Gemma are joined by a Letterboxd friend for a chat about their top four on Letterboxd. That's the four movies they choose as their favorite films on their Letterboxd profile. We have links in the episode notes to the movies, lists and people we talk about. So you can follow along, adding those movies to your watchlists. And today, just back from Cannes, is writer, director, editor, actress and Letterboxd member, is Isabel Sandoval.
GENMA: Now, Isabel has just written a very thirsty essay for us about sensual cinema, which features a super horny script excerpt from her feature film Lingua Franca, which premiered at Venice Days, part of the Venice Film Festival in the before times, otherwise known as 2019. Isabel's films also include Apparition and from earlier this year, the Miu Miu Women's Tales #21, Shangri-La. Isabel four Letterboxd favorites are Hiroshima Mon Amour, Jeanne Dielman, In the Mood for Love and Punch-Drunk Love. Isabel has not reviewed any of these films on her Letterboxd profile. So she is here, with us, right now, on The Letterboxd Show to explain her choices.
SLIM: I feel like I opened several episodes this season with admitting something very brave. So I'm going to do it again right now. I'm gonna admit something. I had to Google French New Wave after seeing Hiroshima Mon Amour. (Gemma laughs)
ISABEL: Wow.
SLIM: So thank you, Isabel. Listen, there's gonna be people just like me that are listening, that are having their world opened up. What was your introduction to this style of filmmaking growing up? Like, how did you discover movies like this?
ISABEL: It's funny because I grew up, you know, I was born and raised in Philippines. And it's not really, you know, like access to World Cinema and foreign films, is not easy, to put it mildly. And growing up, I remember one of my earliest childhood memories, was my mom took me to a movie palace. That's what we called those movie theaters that were built before the war. And they were, you know, massive and enormous and quite ornate in the interior. Although I was born well after that. (Isabel chuckles) She took me to watch—when I was four—this comedy movie starring the Filipino Charlie Chaplin and his young kid. I don't remember much about the movie itself. But I was just enthralled by, you know, this massive image being projected onto the screen. And that got me started with my love affair with cinema. And at that time, you know, I really only had access to like Filipino melodramas and the genre movies, like slapstick, slapstick movies and horror, and the few Hollywood, you know, blockbusters that would get shown there. So it wasn't until college when, you know, interestingly enough that's when piracy became rampant in the Philippines and in a lot of, you know, Asian countries that I remember the very first art house pirated DVD I saw being sold in the stalls, you know, in the streets in Cebu was Beware of the Holy Whore by Rainer Werner Fassbinder. (Isabel laughs)
GENMA: Whaaat? What an introduction!
ISABEL: So after that, yeah, I saw, you know, pirated DVDs of films by Kurosawa, you know, Hitchcock. I remember seeing M by Fritz Lang. And that's, you know, how I got introduced to the work of the masters and our international auteurs. And there was also you know, around that time, when Wong Kar-wai rose to prominence. You know, that was in the early nineties. He had Chungking Express. That was shortly followed by Happy Together, and of course in 2000 he had, what is considered his masterpiece, In the Mood for Love.
GENMA: Which we will get to.
ISABEL: Yes!
GENMA: Got something stuck in my head now about sensual slapstick as a genre? (Gemma & Isabel laugh)
SLIM: Did we just create that right now? (Slim & Gemma laugh)
GENMA: Back to Hiroshima Mon Amour. What film. This is my first Alain Resnais. I'm also going to be brave, Slim, and admit that.
SLIM: Go ahead, please.
GENMA: It's been on my watchlist for a long time. And it's now ticked off the list thanks to you. What an extraordinary film. (music from Hiroshima Mon Amour plays)
ISABEL: Yeah. And it's interesting because, you know, when we think of French New Wave, you know, the names that come to mind are Truffaut, for instance, you know, The 400 Blows, and Godard with Breathless and, you know, the '60s was a very prolific decade for him. And Alain Resnais is actually part of the left bank the French New Wave, in other words are characterized by maybe what we call a more austere, philosophical, informal approach, that's a start opposite to kind of the freewheeling, very energetic, you know, frantic filmmaking of Godard, for instance. And what, you know, really impressed me about Hiroshima Mon Amour was how, you know, formally daring it was. And for a film that was made in 1959, you know, just how modern it felt in its approach to time and memory. And the one thing that I love most about this film is how the past, you know, seemingly blurs into the present. And that, you know, it doesn't make any clear distinction of something that happens in the present time, versus a memory, and how when he achieves this through both visual and sound editing techniques. You know, of course, when the film opens, it is the storyline the film happens in Hiroshima. But over the course of the narrative, we are brought back to the events that happen in the small town that Emmanuelle Riva, you know, lived in when she was a teenager, and she has this affair with a German soldier and because of that, she becomes a pariah in her community, and she becomes ostracized. The death of her lover, and her ostracism, are traumatic events in her life. And how this film isn't bearing in the sense that—and it might be considered inelegant and gauche in our current moment the how it juxtaposes her personal trauma. You know, losing her lover, which is so devastating and traumatic for her, versus the more collective historical trauma, the trauma of what happened in Hiroshima during the Second World War.
SLIM: As I said, to start off the show, you know, I had to do some intense Googling after this, because my eyes were open to, you know, a different kind of filmmaking. I had seen In the Mood for Love this year, for the first time for my other podcast, 70mm. But this is kind of, everyone was saying, see In the Mood for Love, you know, blow your mind. So I don't think I was ready to experience In the Mood for Love yet when I first saw it. So after I saw this movie, I wrote in my Letterboxd review, like this is my In the Mood for Love. I guess I was more prepared to experience this, you know, these two lovers, having this dialogue at the bar, and over the course of a day just talking about their previous life experiences and how painful it was with the backdrop of Hiroshima. I was blown away by this movie, like the photography is out of sight in this film. The relationship between the two leads were so real. You know, you feel that kind of draw between the architect of like, I don't want to leave you, I want to spend more time with you. And it also touched upon the kind of free love nature that I feel like was more prevalent in this era. You know, they talked about how, you know, "I have a husband, I have a wife", but that nature in this film just felt kind of normal, almost, where it was just kind of a thing that just happens.
ISABEL: I admired it's kind of moral restraint and avoidance of melodrama, in that sense. And these are, you know, two adults—two consenting adults—engaging. And because I also like films that, yeah, essentially just the void, dramatic cliches. And you know, there are many ways to tell this kind of story where essentially becomes a melodrama about adultery or infidelity. But Alain Resnais priorities thematically are very different. You know, it is a meditation, the passage of time and memory more than a comment on the public opinion and the morality of these characters.
GENMA: It is a massively beloved film across Letterboxd. And so Criterion Channel recently joined Letterboxd, which is very exciting for us. They are curating incredible lists on the daily which, I mean, that's a brilliant HQ to follow today, in order to open up your filmmaking watchlists. They have a list called Questioning Love, and Hiroshima Mon Amour is on that. It's on lots and lots of 90 minute or less lists. But you know, what's interesting about that is, you know, people are looking for a sort of short hit, as opposed to Jeanne Dielman, which we'll get to. It's in Directors Visit Japan, it's an Conversations on Film, Memory and Yearning, Socialism and leftism, as you pointed out, and a list of Atomic Weapons, and of course, it turns up on a bunch of Horny lists. So yeah, it is definitely a Letterboxd fave. I guess I want to ask about how it links to Lingua Franca. And, you know, going back to those beautiful, entwined limbs scenes that we get in the opening of the film. It feels really like a companion piece to your film.
ISABEL: I think, you know, having also just rewatched Hiroshima Mon Amour recently and realizing now that besides, you know, the the shots of the intertwined limbs and the sensuousness of the imagery, it's, you know, it opens with this French woman, essentially ruminating, you know, and the voice over in French, against a geography of Japan. In the same way, Lingua Franca opens with my character, Olivia, you know, speaking in San Juan against you know, juxtapose with images set in Coney Island. So typical, you know, typically American landscape, and it's about kind of the foreigners perspective of this strange new country that she finds herself in. And it's so interesting, because I also got that inspiration from a Chantal Akerman film, which is News From Home, but I'm realizing now that Renais also, you know, influenced me in that sense. And it's fascinating how certain with films that have, you know, kind of been influential and north stars for an emerging and a budding filmmaker like myself, who is learning the language and the vocabulary of cinema like these formative films. For me, you know, the influence, unconsciously emerge, you know, in the work that I do eventually. And this is apparent in, yeah, even the opening passage of Hiroshima Mon Amour and Lingua Franca.
GENMA: Just as an aside, if you want to find out—and this is what this podcast is all about. If you want to find out how many fans of film here, you jump on Letterboxd. If you're on the web, you look at the histogram, you know where the ratings graph. If you're on the app, you tick the Watched By section and select the Fans tab. And this is a neat way to find out what other like minded film lovers on Letterboxd might also be watching. So it's sort of a way to find other friends. So at this moment in time, Lingua Franca has a solid seventeen fans. So these are the people not who have rated it five stars, of which there are many, but who have added it to their four favorites. Of one of those people have a particularly love her review, she writes, "seeing a trans woman on screen make love is so, so, so important to me. Oh my god. I'm obsessed with Isabel Sandoval.''
ISABEL: Wow.
GENMA: And what's interesting about that is their—it is very similar to other Letterboxd reviews of your film, which is that people are literally obsessed with you. How does that feel? (Slim & Isabel laugh)
ISABEL: It's so funny because like some of the Letterboxd members that comment on Lingua Franca treat it like a DM, like a direct message to me. (Gemma laughs) Like they're talking to me through their Letterboxd reviews.
SLIM: We should also call out that people that want to check out Lingua Franca can do so on Netflix, at least in the US. That's how I watched it. You mentioned reviews for the movie as being a sort of a DM. But I always love to hear from filmmakers how they use Letterboxd for their own works. You know, how do you use Letterboxd to hear what people are saying about your movie, how do you treat it?
ISABEL: I'm very grateful that a platform like Letterboxd exists, because you really get the sense of how cinephilia is still alive, you know, and very much thriving. And it's not just limited to like, literature about cinema, it's not just limited to the ones published by magazines, like Sight and Sound and Film Comment. And there are a lot of, you know, genuine, and, you know, hardcore film lovers that really take the time and really think through the films that they watch and experience and document. You know, that experience, that cinematic experience in their Letterboxd reviews, there are a handful of reviews about Lingua Franca that are, you know, quite lengthy and truly, you know, thoughtful and elegantly written that I feel it's just as worthy of publication as the actual publisher views and for that, you know, it's always a thrill and a joy to read Letterboxd reviews of not just my work, but other films, even though maybe they don't like the film. Because you can see their thought process of how they engage with films, and how it's both an intellectual and emotional experience for them.
GENMA: I also just want to say I'm a fan girl of the way you fan girl Letterboxd reviews. (Gemma & Slim laugh) It's beautiful. The way you pick out the ones that are sort of like either horny hot takes or when you discover through a Letterboxd review that your genre is apparently sensual Neo-realism. Yeah, it's hugely, it's massively appreciated.
ISABEL: Yeah, I feel like in this past six months, my Twitter account has become kind of like an indirect Criterion and Letterboxd stan account. (Gemma & Slim laugh)
GENMA: It's time to move on to the second of your four favorites. There's still sex in in. But I guess we're moving away from the horny and sensual towards the transactional. This is Jeanne Dielman, 23, Quai du Commerce 1080 Bruxelles. Or, in English, Jeanne Dielman, 23, Commerce Quay 1080 Brussels. This is Chantal Akerman's 1975 three-and-a-half-hour-long opus about a lonely widowed housewife played by Delphine Seyrig, who does her daily chores, takes care of her apartment where she lives with her teenage son and turns the occasional trick to make ends meet slowly. And there is no fast way to watch this film. Her ritualized daily routines begin to fall apart. Now this is sitting at a 4.2 out of five star average. Scott 708 fans, it is the sixth-highest-rated film by a female director on Letterboxd and it is on our All Time 250. And it is Akerman's highest-rated and most popular movie. So why is it in your top four?
ISABEL: Surely an all timer. You know, I love films that are a paradox, you know, that are a film of opposites. Like you see, on the surface, it seems quite quiet and observational, and, you know, leisurely and quite naturalistic, but underneath the surface, it's a film about you know, that's increasingly brutal, and suffocating and oppressive. And it's about different kinds of tyrannies. The tyranny of domesticity. And it's such a powerful feminist film without being preachy or didactic. And it makes its point simply by observing Jeanne Dielman, you know, over the course of three days, going about her daily rituals and her routine, and because it observes her within this, you know, habitat and within this space, you know, with such kind of detail, almost microscopic detail, we are forced to pay attention to the tiniest and seemingly most mundane gesture so that as you know, these moments and these rituals accumulate, you know, over the course of the three days, any minor disruption or deviation carries such monumental, dramatic weight.
GENMA: There was a brilliant review, Adam Kempenaar of Filmspotting wrote on Letterboxd, where he figures out that the second trick, she turns the second visitor, the second encounter with one of your clients is the inciting key to the ending. And I guess I must have, I don't know, I was actually doing my laundry while I was watching it, because I thought that that would be—(Gemma & Slim laugh) immersive cinema, right? So I went back and remember that, yeah, he's basically to blame for the potatoes being overcooked. And anyone who's seen the film will understand what a monumental fuckup that was. (Gemma laughs) But it's very, very hard to describe why committing to Jeanne Dielman fully is so important, isn't it? When the basic synopsis is a woman just goes about her daily routine.
ISABEL: And I think, you know, what's even astounding about Akerman's achievement here is that she made this when she was 25.
GENMA: Oh my god.
SLIM: I couldn't believe that when I saw that. I found that on Wiki, and then I watched an interview. She looked like she could be nineteen in the interview, I couldn't believe she was so young when she made this movie. I was like blown away, just the status you have. I'm gonna make a three and a half hour movie about the suffocation of domesticity and she did. I was like, okay. (Gemma laughs)
ISABEL: And you know, it's made with kind of this seeming emotional distance of a documentarian, but also very impressive about this. And what's truly radical about this is that, you know, she essentially made a film that just is about a woman going through her daily rituals. And to consider that worthy of cinematic document.
GENMA: I have to say, and for pandemic reasons, I am solo parenting for long stretches of time. And I felt so completely seen in so many of these scenes. I have, you know, I have to do this job, I have to get a five year old to school. So I have—and I and my coffee of choice is pour-over. So you know, there are many, many similarities. But honestly, if the coffee goes wrong in the morning, and is not quite enough time to make the lunchbox, something will get broken. There was a week two weeks ago where I smashed three different, you know, items of crockery and glassware. And it just, I watching these scenes, I felt—and this is, what, 1975, it feels like nothing has changed in so many ways about women's daily existence. And as Akerman describes, the importance of ritual to bring peace and to lessen anxiety.
SLIM: Obviously, I've never seen a movie like this before. And if anyone is—also I think all the movies we're talking about, with the exception of Punch-Drunk Love—is on the Criterion Channel right now. And I'd never experienced a movie like this before. And some of the scenes that jumped out at me, were her conversations with her son, as he was going to bed. About, you know, walking in on his parents making love and then her reaction to some of the conversation where she said "making love as you call it is merely a detail."
***
SLIM: I thought some of those conversations were so crazy deep just from an insight into her thinking. And I think this is Mitchell, from Letterboxd's, number-one movie of all time.
GENMA: Yes, it is. It is.
SLIM: So I tweeted that like, you know, we're talking about these movies. I got a few replies, people are like "Oh my god, you're talking about this movie. I can't wait." There's a ton of people that feel the same way. So it was an amazing experience watching this. So by all means.
GENMA: Let's move from a film with incredibly sensual sex scenes to a film with extremely transactional sex scenes to a film with none whatsoever.
ISABEL: Yes!
GENMA: But one of the sexiest films of all time. In the Mood for Love. This is number 36 of all time on Letterboxd. Wong Kar-wai's most popular and highest-rated film, the number one film from the whole Hong Kong, China region on Letterboxd. Sits on a bunch of lists called Fills the Void, Soft & Slow, Loneliness in Neon Cities and many, many more. Anyway, it is it is hugely beloved and including by you. Tell us about In the Mood for Love and your love for it. (music from In the Mood for Love fades in)
ISABEL: It's funny because when you think about it on, you know, their very basic premise In the Mood for Love and Hiroshima Mon Amour, which is about elicit love affairs, you know, set in Asia in a period setting, could have ended up being the same movie. But because, again, the auteur behind the camera making the film they end up as you know, wildly different films. And what I love about In the Mood for Love, it's similar, again, in a very, very rudimentary level, it's similar to Jeanne Dielman in that it's a movie of paradoxes. It's a movie of opposites. It is about romantic repression, and a style that you would consider visually and musically extravagant, and maximalist. And it's similar also to the style of (inaudible) in that sense, because, you know, his characters are also very emotionally repressed. But he, you know, he is very exuberant with the art direction, the saturated colors, the music, and I consider In the Mood for Love to be the pinnacle of sensuous cinema, I think in the 21st century. I think that is, that might be a bold statement to make.
SLIM: Very bold. (Gemma laughs)
ISABEL: But for me, you know, sensuousness is not necessarily about sex, or you know, or showing, you know, characters in a sexual encounter. It's about kind of the—the energy, the sexual and erotic, sensuous energy, which is, at its highest and most powerful—let's say just before orgasm. (Isabel & Gemma laugh) So the most sensuous films I would say are those that are, that engage in some kind of cinematic edging. (Slim & Gemma laugh)
GENMA: Now we're getting somewhere!
ISABEL: You know, usher the audience to the precipice of that, you know, sensual satisfaction, and just frustrated at the right moment to leave a lingering and haunting impression and impact, that will make this film unforgettable.
GENMA: I mean, without spoilers for anyone who still hasn't seen In the Mood for Love that those last few scenes back in the building. Oh, my god! That's like, yeah, that's edging if I ever saw it.
SLIM: When I first saw this movie, I think this past year. Also easily one of the most gorgeous movies I've ever seen.
ISABEL: Yes!
SLIM: The colors, everything pops. I think you can see anyone who talks about In the Mood for Love, they'll post screenshots, you know, of the most gorgeous scenes in this movie. And I was about to reference a Tom Cruise movie because—(Slim laughs)
GENMA: Don't do it!
SLIM: I'm doing it anyway! I think he calls himself a 'pleasure delayer' in Vanilla Sky, but really visually, that's what this movie does. It doesn't incorporate any of that stuff. Even their spouses, their partners, are not shown at all in this movie. You know, obviously a very conscious decision. And you had said, I think on a piece that you had done for the Criterion—this is a spoiler, so if anyone has not seen this movie, maybe quick, fast forward. But "'if the lovers in these movies stayed together in the end, they would not be the classics that they are remembered for being now." And I think that the delaying, the edging, right until the end, it pulls it back. And it just leaves you with that lasting memory of what was and what never could been.
ISABEL: I think the best, you know, the most powerful sensuous films leave the audience with—the blue balls, so to speak. (Slim & Gemma & Isabel laugh) The sensual-cinema canon, is a canon of the one that got away.
SLIM: Can we get that on the cover of the next Criterion release? Can we get that quote from you on like a little circle sticker on the bottom? (Gemma & Isabel laugh)
GENMA: Before we dive into your last film, which is Paul Thomas Anderson's Punch-Drunk Love, I have a question about edging and touching. And that is—(Gemma chuckles)—you've just been in Cannes. Like a real life, real in-person film festival. And on Twitter, you posted a photo of you touching Tilda Swinton! Oh my god! Tell us everything. Have you showered yet?
(Slim laughs)
ISABEL: Oh my god. (Isabel laughs) Yes, Queen Tilda, who had three movies in Cannes, actually.
GENMA: Amazing!
ISABEL: Yeah, I've seen two of three films and I'd loved, you know, the two that I saw. I loved—
GENMA: That was not my question. That's not my question. (Slim & Gemma & Isabel laugh)
ISABEL: Unfortunately, I've washed—
GENMA: Oh, you have washed. Ahhh, man.
ISABEL: I mean, I didn't for three days, though. But, you know.
GENMA: It's wonderful to hear that two of her three films have your stamp of approval. And can we also talk about, because you are also a provocateur of nun cinema. Benedetta. Let's talk about our sweet boy Paul Verhoeven.
ISABEL: Oh yes.
GENMA: Slim is praying right now.
SLIM: I'm a huge Paul fan. I've only recently come into his later works. I just recently saw Elle. So what was the experience like seeing his new, his latest at Cannes?
ISABEL: It was a hoot, you know, really. Benedetta. And especially coming from, you know, growing up in a country that's terribly and neurotically Catholic. (Gemma laughs) You know, we're used to a lot of films about religion, especially about Catholicism, that are very self serious and, you know, self important and somber. To Verhoeven, essentially, vandalized Catholicism, and, you know, gave it a campy treatment. And I thought that was also truly quite subversive, especially when it's taking this story that's based on actual historical events in Italy, and giving it a lighter campier spin and that, you know, Catholicism should not be taking itself seriously because if this was, you know, that story told with a straight face, it would really be about the abuses of the Catholic Church against, you know, women, and would be a lot more cruel and punishing.
SLIM: I grew up also in the Catholic Church.
GENMA: Oh snap. (Slim laughs)
SLIM: So I'm well aware of everything that goes on there. (Gemma laughs)
GENMA: How many Hail Marys are we saying after this?
SLIM: Gotta go to confession after this episode. But one of your quotes, which I think will get a lot of people interested also in seeing this movie, I think was from a tweet, "why shouldn't Catholicism get its own Showgirls?" (Gemma laughs) And that's a great plug to see that movie.
ISABEL: Yes!
SLIM: Okay, yes, I need to see this movie right now.
ISABEL: Yeah, yeah, IFC Films. (Slim laughs) Yeah. You can use that, just pay me. (Isabel laughs)
GENMA: I love that. I love it so much. And it's a chance for me to just fangirl you once again and say that actually, in your sensual cinema essay for us, you've very generously given us the script for the gorgeous lovemaking scene. My personal favorite Lingua Franca scene was when Olivia and Trixie are sitting in church discussing what kind of husband they're gonna find for Olivia next. It's like, you're gonna make sure it's a handsome one. And I just had this—like, all of that, there's just so much tied up in that one scene. First of all, you're in church. So like, good, Filipina girls, you are, you know, continuing to recognize your faith in a foreign country. But you're trans girls, you're talking about, you know, illegal marriages to get to secure your green cards, and you're talking about the fact that they need to be hot. You know, there's a whole lot of brilliant sort of layers there that Paul Verhoeven would appreciate.
ISABEL: Watching Benedetta inspired me to make a, you know, sequel to Lingua Franca where Trixie and I actually get ourselves to a nunnery. (Slim & Gemma laugh) Because we talk about it in that scene, remember?
GENMA: Yes, you do! You do! That's genius. Oh my god. I love that. Alright, it is time. It is time for your fourth.
SLIM: The big one.
GENMA: The big one. Your most favorite film. A film amongst the four films where—spoilers—the lovers actually get together. So you know, bringing it all back home. We're beyond edging, we're into the full romance of the thing. But not without some volatility, violence, social awkwardness. This is the Adam Sandler starring Punch-Drunk Love by Paul Thomas Anderson from 2002. It has a four out of five star average and it has a whopping 3,500 fans on Letterboxd, of which you are one.
ISABEL: Wow. Punch-Drunk Love is truly just a testament to Paul Thomas Anderson's virtuosity as an auteur. (music from Punch-Drunk Love fades in) And it's, I think, a masterpiece in juggling a lot of tones and emotional registers. And because, in the hands of less talented filmmakers, a film like this would just seem disjointed, you know, and totally inconsistent, and schizophrenic, which is it kinda is. But Anderson is able to combine all these elements and still have one, you can say coherent, you know, emotionally coherent film. And this kind of juggling of different tones and moods, he does it in a number of elements, both within music by Jon Brion, You know, there are musical cues that are more kind of Golden Age of Hollywood, you know, romantic music, and there is something that sounds more electronic, you know, and more modern. And it's also a testament to Adam Sandler's work, that he also has to juggle that shifting emotional registers in the film. Where something that's more kind of low key romantic to something that's more kind of frazzled, and anxious, you know, which the Safdie brothers uses to great effect in Uncut Gems.
GENMA: Yes, yeah.
ISABEL: This actually reminds me—and I might have said that in my Criterion Top Ten as well—this reminds me of The Apartment by Billy Wilder, and how very adroitly Billy Wilder also juggles between those discordant you know, tones in the film. There's a passage halfway through the film, Shirley MacLaine, you know, tries to commit suicide, and it's a very devastating, you know, moment. But, Billy Wilder, seamlessly introduces this kind of slapstick in a farcical energy into that scene. And so the end result is that the very seemingly incongruous, you know, playing off of these different emotional registers, ultimately makes the scene and the whole movie come off as melancholic. And that's the same, I think, emotional destination that Paul Thomas Anderson takes us to.
SLIM: I was talking to Isabel right before we started. And this is also one of my favorite movies, this is an instant five bagger, as I call it. But I have the Blu-ray of this from Criterion. And I also had, I think I bought The Apartment Blu-ray in the same purchase for both of these.
ISABEL: Wow.
SLIM: And I was working at a video store when I first saw this when this came out, I think in 2002. And I think this might be my first introduction to a kind of auteur experience watching this. This might have been my first PTA movie. And if you haven't kind of been exposed to all of his movies, this could be like a really eye opening film. You talked about in your in your Criterion about how it's intoxicating and very experimental. And this could have failed so largely with anyone else. But when you get a person with such skill, you just end up with something just completely magical and so rare, in my opinion, that you can get something like this, and it's so fun to go back and celebrate.
GENMA: I have reservations. (Gemma laughs)
SLIM: Excuse me? Excuse me, Gemma?
ISABEL: Let's hear them!
GENMA: How many Hail Marys—(Slim laughs)
SLIM: Gemma's also going to be in the confessional after this episode.
GENMA: I want to say this is a 2002 movie. If this was a 2021 movie, I think that there will be other people with reservations as well. Because I think that we've learned a lot about toxic masculinity and what it looks like. And I struggle with—I mean, everyone, everyone deserves love—I struggle with such a violent man being a romantic lead. I really, really struggle with it. And I recognize at the same time that this is a film from 2002. I recognize that he's a character with a lot of sisters who are straight up abusive towards him, you know, they use slurs that undermine his masculinity at every point. But I accept that PTA pulls it off, ultimately, in that scene with Philip Seymour Hoffman. Where all of that toxic masculinity is dialed back at the pivotal moment.
SLIM: It's almost like it kind of has that, you know, when you put two magnets together. You know, they kind of like push each other apart, like that scene towards the end.
GENMA: Yeah—oh my god!
SLIM: Where they're both trying to use that masculinity against each other and it's just, it doesn't compute what's happening in front of them and they both just go into their opposite directions.
GENMA: Yeah, yeah, sort of cancels out. And there's also an element with Emily Watson's character, and like, I adore her, I'll watch her in anything including this. But there is an element of—and I know it's a term we're not supposed to use anymore—but an element of manic pixieness. In that, we don't learn a lot about her. You know? We just learned that she really likes Adam Sandler's character. And that's apparently all we need to know. And again, you know, I forgive it for 2002. But I would say that for me, Paul Thomas Anderson peaked with the—Phantom Thread. (Slim laughs) I was about to say—(Gemma laughs)
SLIM: The Phantom Menace. I was like wow, I didn't know PTA worked on the The Phantom Menace, wow! (Gemma laughs)
GENMA: Slim, how many Hail Marys do I have to say based on my Punch-Drunk Love reservations?
SLIM: Ten Our Fathers, 30 Hail Marys I think before the next episode. (Gemma laughs) We were you know, crunching the numbers. I think Gemma also has another stat, but your most popular review is for A New Leaf.
ISABEL: Wow!
SLIM: 'Elaine May has a very particular—and very wry—comic sensibility. Hollywood doesn't deserve her.' So what is your elevator pitch for people that haven't checked out this film yet off the top of your head?
ISABEL: A New Leaf, you know, I think the most talented auteurs are the ones that create a very particular world, you know, and milieu in terms of its like tone, and sensibility and have the audacity and that command to kind of just draw us and pull us into their world. And pay attention to them as they tell the story the way that they want to tell it. That's what I got from A New Leaf. It has a very, very distinct comic sensibility. And that's true about, you know, all the directors that we consider auteurs. In that when you're watching their film, you know you're watching a film by this director. And it could be through a combination of, you know, visual cues on the surface. And of course, it's not just that. But for example, with Wes Anderson, for instance. One frame, you know it's a Wes Anderson film. And it's the same way for instance, with Roy Andersson, who is also very visually oriented. And Aki Kaurismäki, who is a Scandinavian filmmaker as well. And, you know, like with Scorsese, for most of his films at least, there is kind of a thematic through line. That's also something that I experienced. It's like being drawn into the strange, idiosyncratic, comically virtuous world of Elaine May in A New Leaf.
GENMA: Let's talk briefly about Filipino cinema, because I don't know if you've caught up with the news that on our Halfway 2021 25 Highest-Rated Films of this year so far. The number-one and number-two films are both Filipino films.
ISABEL: Okay, number one is Cleaners. Yes!
GENMA: Yes! By Glenn Barit. And number two is Ode to Nothing by Dwein Baltazar.
ISABEL: Dwein Baltazar, yes.
GENMA: Yeah! So what have you got to say about that as a fellow Filipino filmmaker?
ISABEL: I think it's just amazing. I've seen Ode to Nothing and it's a remarkable, remarkable film. I have yet to see Cleaners. I hope it gets, you know, distribution Stateside.
GENMA: You talked earlier about Philippines culture of being very Catholic and often quite morally repressed culture. What do you think that modern Filipino cinema is doing to bring about a new way of looking at Filipino life?
ISABEL: What's very exciting about these two films, you know, rating as high as they have this year so far is that both these films kind of stray from the typical aesthetic of arthouse Philippine cinema, in that—and I hate to use this term, like poverty porn, for instance. But, you know, Cleaners, from what I've seen and read, I've read is that it's just, you know, formally very playful and quite dazzling. It's truly experimental in terms, I think it's just picking the color. And Ode to Nothing is also quite different. It's very restrained and austere, but there's also a comic sensibility running through it underneath and I would love to have, you know, more Filipino films that truly go against the grain of the established aesthetic of Philippine cinema, to get more audiences and to get seen more widely and recognized for that achievement that they have.
SLIM: I think maybe to close out there's one last topic that I had to ask, which is something that might be coming down the line from you soon. Tropical Gothic, which is described as having surreal elements that riffs on Hitchcock's Vertigo, can you leave us with anything to whet our appetite for a future release?
ISABEL: Yes, so Tropical Gothic is my fourth and most ambitious feature. I consider a Lingua Franca kind of a transitional film for me, in that it's still rooted in some kind of social realism. But it's also the film where I'm truly starting to find my voice and incorporating lyricism and poetry and sensuousness into my work. And with Tropical Gothic, I just take that to the extreme. (Gemma laughs) It's about a—it's set in the sixteenth century in the Philippines very early on during the Spanish colonial regime. It is an allegory about colonialism and imperialism. And so when the Spaniards arrived, they seize the property and the farmland from the natives. And so, Tropical Gothic is about this native Filipina priestess who pretends to be possessed by the spirit of her Spanish master's then bride in order to psychologically manipulate him into giving back her farmland.
SLIM: My god.
GENMA: Woah! (Slim laughs)
ISABEL: And aside from being influenced by Hitchcock's Vertigo, it's like Jane Campion's The Piano but it's from the perspective of the Māori natives.
GENMA: I feel a Palme d'Or coming on. (Slim & Isabel laugh)
ISABEL: And you know, kind of my logline for it is that it's a vampire film without vampires.
SLIM: Oh my god.
GENMA: Oh my god.
SLIM: It's already in my watchlist. So I'm sure it's in most people's watchlists on Letterboxd after listening.
GENMA: Is it—sensual slapstick adjacent? (Slim & Isabel laugh)
ISABEL: Oh my god. It's—surreal sensuousness. (Slim laughs)
GENMA: Woo!
(music)
GENMA: Thanks so much for listening to The Letterboxd Show. And thanks to our guest this episode, Isabel Sandoval, for sharing her love of her favorite movies. Please read Isabel's essay for us on sensual cinema. It features the whole horny section of script from her latest feature Lingua Franca. The link for the essay is in the show notes.
SLIM: Don't forget you can follow Gemma, Slim—that's me—and our Letterboxd HQ page on Letterboxd using the links in our episode notes. Thanks to composing dynamos, Moniker for the theme music 'Vampiros Dancoteque'. If you are enjoying the show and have guest ideas, be sure to leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. The Letterbox Show is a TAPEDECK Production.
GENMA: And that's it! We've edged right up to the end of the episode. (Slim laughs) We'll leave you to sort yourselves out.
SLIM: Oh my.
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GENMA: Hello and welcome to The Letterboxd Show, a podcast about movies from Letterboxd: the social network for film lovers. Each episode your hosts Gemma—that's me—and Slim are joined by a Letterboxd friend for a chat about their four favorite films according to their Letterboxd profile. We have links in the episode notes to the movies, lists and people we talked about so you can follow along and add those movies to your watchlists. Today, we're moving into Mayfield Place and talking about the neighbors with Jim Cummings, Letterboxd bestie, friend of filmmakers and a filmmaker himself!
SLIM: Jim's new film The Beta Test is on the festival circuit right now and comes into theaters in the fall. His other movies Thunder Road and The Wolf of Snow Hollow are available On Demand and you should watch them. Jim's Letterboxd handle is jimmycthatsme and his four favorites are: Inside Out, Krisha, Children of Men and The 'Burbs.
GENMA: Oh my god.
SLIM: And now… on with the show.
(theme music ramps up, plays alone, fades out)
SLIM: Jim, we watched your four favorites this past week to prep for this exact moment, this conversation right now.
JIM: I'm honored.
SLIM: And I have one question: is Tom Hanks the greatest comedic actor of all time?
JIM: He's unbelievable. Especially in that film. In The 'Burbs, it is so funny to watch this guy struggle and have to put up with these insane neighbors and social dynamics. He feels like a camp counselor and I don't think he gets cast in these funny roles anymore but he's now one of the best. And then it becomes incredibly profound. He goes from being this kind of like goofy, you know, beer drinking neighbor guy to then being this profound, thoughtful person in the ending monologue. And to see that woven, it is like watching Chaplin or something like that. He is so, so good in this film.
GENMA: I am so excited to talk about The 'Burbs and I'm gonna suggest we save it to the end because otherwise we're in danger of—
JIM: I'm so sorry! I jumped the gun.
GENMA: No, no, no! (Gemma laughs) It's all Slim's fault, please!
JIM: We just talk about The 'Burbs for the next 40 minutes, and is like 'also, he likes Krisha, thank you so much for joining us!' (Gemma & Slim laugh)
SLIM: The one thing I do want to bring up too about Tom Hanks just because I think it's worth a refresher, that Tom Hanks has this you know history of an amazing comedic actor. My brother is older than I am. And I remember growing up seeing scenes from The Money Pit when I was like way too young to remember when I think like the bathtub falls through—
JIM: Falls through the floor!
SLIM: And he does that laugh scene. Nobody talks about that anymore!
JIM: It's amazing.
(Tom Hanks scene laughing in The Money Pit plays)
SLIM: What's happening in our society? We need to wake people up, Jim! (Jim & Gemma laugh)
JIM: Sheeple! Wake up!
GENMA: I just want to say that every time I'm thinking about my Letterboxd four favorites and, you know, we've already talked about mine on the first episode of the series. I think every now and then, I think I should just make it Big and the three best Indiana Jones films because it's the truth, right?
SLIM: Wow.
GENMA: Those are the movies I will come back to again and again. But Tom Hanks in Big is extraordinary. I know it's a mainstream film but he just… in the legacy in the canon of movies in which an adult is embodying a child or a child is embodying an adult. Tom Hanks is… he's the GOAT of that.
JIM: There's a good quote from Steve Martin when he was introducing Tom Hanks at the Oscars. He says 'my next guest had the easiest job in Hollywood, if you only make hits, Tom Hanks!' (Gemma & Slim laugh) It's like the best joke of like a guy who's only made great movies.
SLIM: Well, let's go through your favorites on Letterboxd and people can follow Jim's account in our episode notes. The first one on our list, it has it all. We're going to get emotional. It's Inside Out from Pixar. For those that have not seen it, you know, it follows the four characters Joy, Fear, Anger, Disgust, but then also Sadness, and they are living inside of the lead character's mind where they help advise her through everyday life and tries to keep things positive. This is a movie in my opinion that kind of gets a little bit to the wayside in the lore of Pixar. But what was your first impression seeing Inside Out when it first been released, Jim? (music from Inside Out fades in)
JIM: Oh, just crying my eyes out, unabashedly. It was awful. It was humiliating. I saw a drive in. And so everybody was coming out of their cars, sitting in their cars. This was in, you know, 2017? No, 2015, right when it came out. And there's the big scene with Bing Bong in it. And I had never seen something like that in an animated film, especially a comedy. And I cried my eyes out for like a week and a half, it was really brutal. And I had to see it a couple more times, just to really feel it. And I've seen that movie so many times now, I feel like it's part of me, where, at that point, in watching Pixar movies and watching movies in general, there was this dichotomy between something that was a really functioning drama that was very poignant. And then a really funny comedy. And it was very difficult to fuse the two of them together. And I saw it when it came out in 2015. And I realized that that was something that you could do, you can make something that is both poignant, and heartbreaking. And also very funny. And it doesn't make it worse, it makes it better. And I don't think that I would be where I am now, had I not seen that film. I love every little bit of it. And not just for those characters that are inside of the mind, but also Riley, the girl whose head they're in. I think it really is one of the most important films ever made. Because it is a lesson in how the brain and emotions work disguised as a kids movie. And what a great lesson to teach children that they are not in charge of their emotions, but they can be if they focus right. It is an unbelievable humanitarian effort that was put in by Pixar. And I love that movie so much.
GENMA: I think especially over the last year and a half, when the emphasis on mental health has only been greater, you know, more important, and in still not enough funding and still not enough resources. And everybody who is privileged enough to have access to a therapist has to talk to them just like this. Just like we are. It's interesting to see how that can help us in these ways.
JIM: It's so crazy to where I had never really had that intense or like potent of a cinema experience emotionally watching that film. Not just the music and Bing Bong saying 'sing louder' (Gemma gasps) and it's just so brutal. God dammit Gemma! (Slim laughs) It's so—I can't, I can't think about it without crying! And it's so, it's about love and self sacrifice, and helping people. And then she says, after Bing Bong disappears, she goes 'Goodbye Bing Bong!' and it's the dumbest name in history, and then you're laughing again. (Gemma laughs) And but no, it's a suicide in a Disney film. And it is shocking and beautiful and horrifying. And so wonderful. And the music is unbelievable. The characters are really great and the world is so well thought out. And it functions in the same way that The Matrix does, where the prerequisite for enjoying the film is having a brain and knowing that deja-vu and all of that stuff. It's like these great, you know, humanist ideas behind the world building. And Pete Docter was just at the top of his game, and he has a whole team apparently, from everything that I know about, that the best idea wins at Pixar, doesn't matter where it comes from. And I think that's, you know, I've brought that into my work. And it's not necessarily about who's leading the ship. It's about helping everybody to make the best story. It is unparalleled to me in kids films. I often forget that it's a kid's movie when people ask me my favorite kids movies are. It's unbelievable.
GENMA: Important question for the room. Have any amongst us head an imaginary friend?
JIM: I didn't. I didn't. My sister did and she would often talk to him when she was, until she's about three or four, but then that was it. Did you?
SLIM: No, I did not. I did not, no.
GENMA: Oh my god!
SLIM: Nope.
GENMA: You guys are missing out! Is this just a girl thing?
SLIM: I had comic books. So those were my imaginary friends. (Gemma laughs) And my action figures. Those occupied my time.
GENMA: Which action figure was your favorite?
SLIM: Boy, you know what, some of my earliest memories of action figures, my brother grew up also a big Chuck Norris fan. Do you remember the old Chuck Norris action figures?
JIM: Oh my god! Yes!
SLIM: He had like this Corvette car that was legit af, it was amazing. So yeah, needless to say, I was doing some ninja Chuck Norris stuff growing up and I wanted his blue jeans and his cowboy boots and knew it didn't happen, you know, eventually as I got older, but you know.
JIM: For those of you who can't See slim, he's got a six-pack abs, (Slim laughs) and now he's wearing cowboy boots and jeans that he's kicking around. It's a bit dangerous next to the microphones. (Gemma laughs)
SLIM: And I'm in a Corvette right now, that's how I'm recording.
JIM: He is badass! (Gemma & Slim laugh)
GENMA: I love it!
SLIM: So I loved going back to watching Inside Out. I agree with you. I rated this five stars. The Bing Bong conversation with Sadness is one of the greatest film moments in animation history, in my opinion. Multi-layered. And I think we have a bunch of stats. This is a 3.9 average on Letterboxd, has 2,000 fans. So there's 2,000 other people that have this in their four favorites on Letterboxd.
GENMA: Wow. I feel like some of the lists it's on are perfectly suitable. You'll be happy to know Jim that you're not the only person who ugly cries when you watch Inside Out, there's a whole list of movies called Ugly cry! that Inside Out sits right at the top of. Also on there, Stuart Little.
JIM: Stuart Little, sure.
GENMA: A Dog's Purpose. I mean, why not?
JIM: That was beautiful.
GENMA: Girl Interrupted. Yeah, that was really, really gorgeous. What else? Stepmom. Oh, don't even get me started. Susan Sarandon.
JIM: Oh, yeah, that's right!
GENMA: The Notebook. Of course. Up. See, Up for me, the opening fifteen, I just…
JIM: They punch you in the stomach in the opening. It's like at least in in Inside Out, they hold it to close to the end.
GENMA: Yeah! (Gemma laughs)
JIM: I do have a funny story about Up. I know this is a non sequitur. But I saw it in New Orleans for the first time in 3D. And it was a bunch of adults, buddies of mine just out of college, going to see the movie. And it was just like a quiet matinee screening. And at the end of the sequence, that is so heartbreaking in the opening, there was a girl who's about two rows ahead of me and she said at this volume, 'is she okay?' and everybody laughed in the theater. (Gemma & Slim & Jim laugh) And turned back to look at this poor girl. Yeah, it was horrifying.
SLIM: Everyone wearing 3d glasses turning around the look at you is probably a sight in and of itself. (Gemma & Jim laugh)
JIM: She was mortified.
GENMA: Before we move on to Krisha, I think we need to sort of take a sidestep and talk a little bit about what you do with your characters and Thunder Road and Wolf of Snow Hollow that sort of fits in, I guess to what Inside Out is also doing. Which we can see in I guess the real time within the films, your characters, working out how all these feelings fit together and can coexist with each other. And how it's sort of okay to show vulnerability. Specifically in Wolf of Snow Hollow in the hospital scene. You know that beautiful camera movement and the refocus to the bed behind you. And oh my god, just… like you're gonna get me started.
JIM: It's so brutal too. To do that, I mean, that's like, my favorite kind of cinema, is using the camera to help tell the story. And like that is, I just find to be relatively absent in modern film. And to do it emotionally, I'm lifting all of that from Pixar, of like, you can just move the camera slightly and help tell the story of somebody died in the interim of this person being in the room last time and then coming back. It's like, oh my god, like, this poor guy. And then the same thing with Thunder Road, the ending shot of Thunder Road of me at the ballet, where it's like, you see this guy go through hell for 80 minutes. And then you see him be okay. He like helped his daughter. He was a good parent for once. I don't know, I think there is this ongoing thing that with cinema audiences and cinephiles, that they just want the characters to be okay. And that everything is alright, they just need to be confirmed that everything's gonna be alright. And to do that for so long, for like 80 minutes of the movie to watch the story of Job as a comedy, and then have it pay off emotionally for the guy. It can be extremely cathartic, especially when it's a writer, actor and director doing it. Where it's like, in a Jackie Chan film where everything ends up okay, it's like oh, finally, Jackie's okay. You know, he got his ass kicked, but like he's okay now. And it can be a better, or like a more potent conversation between filmmakers and the audience that I really only discovered through making my movies.
SLIM: I read a quote from you. Because I was curious, your thought process where you were putting yourself in these shoes for these characters to go through these journeys. And you said 'the stuff I like to read is about humiliating these characters and putting them through these places and paces. And I don't know if I want to put other people through that.'
JIM: Yeah.
SLIM: I think that's a pretty fascinating answer because it makes sense to me as the viewer, your characters do go through the wringer. They make some really bad calls. (Slim laughs) And they eventually do, you know, come out in the end, you know, for the better.
JIM: I think also what comedy is to me, like watching someone just be constantly humiliated on accident for no fault of their own. And then that's also dramatic as well. Like Roberta Bernini has made a career out of these like kind of pathetic characters that the audience like, agh, I just love this guy! Like just be okay! This guy can't catch a break! And so you can kind of wield the audience's emotions and attention throughout the narrative, just by facial expressions, just by like stupid things that the guy does and you know, have him constantly fall on his face—sometimes actually falling on my face. But I love that! I love that I get to pretend to be Jackie Chan and Charlie Chaplin for a month when we're making a movie and it's the most fulfilling experience making myself look bad. (Slim & Gemma laugh)
GENMA: One of the other things, we talked about Wolf of Snow Hollow last year, I didn't get to say this to you. But one of my other favorite things about it is, well, you cast Riki Lindhome, because she's, you know—I don't know if this is why you cast her—but for me, it was wonderful because she's in one of the best ukulele guitar musical comedy duo of all time, Garfunkel and Oates. And I am a ukulele lover. I just love those two so much. We talked a little bit about the, I guess, the sort of gender dynamics that you explore in Wolf of Snow Hollow in terms of ambition and outcomes for their careers. But it's more about while you're putting your character through all of these humiliating sort of leaps of emotion, she's just the straight woman, right? She's so straight and that straight to the point where she gets to be weathering and really wonderful moments when they're in the car, and he's like—
***
GENMA: She just looks—
JIM: Like he hadn't thought of it yet before. It's the first time he's thinking it in real time. And then he has to change the subject. He's like, that was a stupid thing to say. She's so amazing. And it's great at the end of the film, like the whole movie;s about this, you know, the the father leaving the patriarchy of the sheriff's department, Robert Forster's character, and then you think I'm the heir apparent. And then of course, she becomes the sheriff at the end because I've been a lunatic the whole movie!
GENMA: Yeah! (Gemma laughs)
JIM: And it's such a great moment to watch it with women in the crowd, where that happens, and then everybody goes, yep, that makes sense! Just like oh, thank god! You know? (Slim laughs) It's great!
GENMA: And finally, another thing I noticed about Wolf of Snow Hollow on this rewatch was it's a Christmas movie! So, you know, if you're listening and you've got a Christmas movie list, add it. But speaking of holidays…
SLIM: Uh oh.
GENMA: Let's move now to your second of your four Letterboxd faves, Krisha, by Trey Edward Shults
JIM: An actual masterpiece that is shot in his mom's house and backyard. In Texas. It is an unbelievable film. I guess I'll just talk about… synopsis according to me. It's a film about a 65-year-old woman coming back to celebrate Thanksgiving with a family having been gone for ten years. And there are many reveals about her position in the family. She's apparently sober. And just the stress of being with the families and undergoing an American Thanksgiving with all the power and social dynamics in a household. She relapses and it becomes this horror film, basically, dramatic horror film. And it's amazing. It is such a beautiful showcase of her as an actress, the rest of the family as actors. Trey Edward Shults' mom plays his aunt in the film, his real life mom. So many of his family members are peppered throughout the movie. And they shot it for nothing in this house. And I saw it for the first time at its world premiere at South by Southwest. I ran down Sixth Street in a suit to get to see this movie! And Trey was outside like 'get your ticket, get inside!' I went inside and watched it and it changed my life forever. It was the first time I had seen a Duplass style film made that showcased craftsmanship that was very funny throughout, that was also very tragic and about an important subject. And within five months, I was doing the Thunder Road short film. It was the inciting incident for my life of this is what the future of American indie film renaissance can be. And it really is that for me. Like I cite that film being made and being released as the beginning of the American indie movement now.
SLIM: Sheesh! That's quite a plug for anyone that hasn't seen this movie yet. (Jim laughs) If you're on the edge of making your own films, I think you need to get off your rear end. And check out this movie.
JIM: See it! It's unbelievable.
SLIM: I knew I was in for a ride as soon as she was walking around the house with her luggage and she stepped in that mud in her shoe. I was like oh god.
JIM: And she goes to the wrong house! (Slim laughs) And it's one long take, and she goes to the wrong house! But they go through the whole rigmarole of bringing her to another house and then she has to go next door to the actual house. It's amazing.
SLIM: Yeah, like if you visualize me watching the movie, like the bead of sweat started to come down. Before she even got into the house for Thanksgiving. I was like oh lord.
JIM: It's great!
GENMA: What an opening shot. What at set up. I mean that shot. It goes from when she drives up in her pick-up, right, all the way to the next door neighbor's house. All the way to the right house, in the door, down the hallway and then all of the family members hug her.
JIM: Yep.
GENMA: And then it's that like whole… wow.
JIM: And greet the baby, you get to meet—you find out the architecture of the house and the architecture of the family in one long take. And also she doesn't even get out of the car before you know about her character because her dress is hanging out to the side of the pick-up truck. (Jim laughs)
GENMA: Yes, yes!
JIM: It's like, this woman's a bit of a wreck. It's so funny and so beautiful.
GENMA: There's an amazing slomo shot in this film that, I don't know, we should talk about.
JIM: The entire sequence with Nina Simone.
GENMA: Agh!
JIM: Because of all of the stakes building throughout this and like how important tonight is for this family and for Krisha, particularly. When something goes awry, even if it's something small in retrospect, in real life, it makes it feel like you're watching a planet explode or something. It's so tense in watching the sequence. And it's this beautiful slomo sequence with a Nina Simone song underneath it. And it feels like a music video, it goes into anamorphic widescreen with real anamorphic lenses.
GENMA: Yeah, for once in the movie, those douchebag sons and cousins aren't fighting each other or armwrestling! Everyone's quite peaceful and chill. Doyle's not talking about eating leather and shitting saddles. (Gemma & Jim laugh) It's like, we're finally at a beautiful moment, and then, oh my god.
JIM: And then it gets ruined, of course, but it's the climax of the movie. And it's a such a small climax. But it's amazing. I actually do have some good behind the scenes discussion of that, because I'm an associate producer of Krisha. After having seen it at South by and then bringing it to the Skywalker Sound to have its final mix.
GENMA: Ahhh. Wait. How did that work? So you got obsessed with this movie, it kicked off your career…
JIM: I got obsessed with the movie. And then I said "how can I help this movie?" to Trey and the team. And he was like, well, we still need to like do a final mix. And I was like, I know the people at Skywalker, maybe they'll give us a friend rate. And they did! And so they had just gotten into Cannes. And I said let's go up and do it. And so I drove up from Los Angeles to San Francisco and flew the two boys in, Brian McOmber, the composer and Trey and we stayed in the Airbnb outside of Skywalker Sound and mixed the movie for three or four days with Michael Semanick. So that whole time I got to like hear about all of Trey's directing abilities. And I feel like it was a bit of a bootcamp for me to learn what it's like to be a bit of a director. And that armwrestling sequence is a fight scene between Chase Joliet and Bryan Casserly, and they play these kind of warring brothers. And before shooting it, Trey went up to Bryan and said, "Look, I really need you to win this arm wrestling championship. Because if it doesn't, it's going to ruin your character arc, and it's going to be a problem for the movie. I need you to win this thing." And he goes "Okay. Okay. Okay." And he goes up to Chase. And he goes, "Look, I really need you to win this arm wrestling competition." (Jim & Gemma & Slim laugh) And so when you're watching, it's like, wow, they are really fighting! And it's ridiculous. Trey is such a champ.
SLIM: There's a theme that is similar in this movie of alcoholism, obviously, in Wolf of Snow Hollow and some folks might not seek those kinds of movies out. So how do you, as a viewer, emotionally prepare yourself for movies that are just so heavy like this?
JIM: Yeah, it's a tough thing. It took me a long time to watch Come and See, even though it was out on the Criterion channel, and I was like, I don't know if I want to watch something that everybody says is traumatizing. I don't know. With Krisha, it's so well woven into the filmmaking that it feels like you're in good hands of a filmmaker. And so because you're being chaperoned on this roller coaster, the important, you know, cultural elements of drug abuse and alcoholism seem to be plot points, and then it kind of washes over you. You don't think that you're being preached to until you've had a week to think about it and cry, like I did. (Slim chuckles)
SLIM: And then you find a Bing Bong scene. (Jim laughs) A Bing Bong moment of this movie. (Slim laughs)
JIM: Yeah. But I don't know. That's a good question. It was a difficult thing, with Thunder Road, I wanted to make something about the opioid epidemic because Springsteen's music is all about leaving this dead in town. And I was like, what is it that in town nowadays? And like what is America going through right now? And it's, you know, most people don't think that's what the movie's about. It becomes about that a bit. But if you can make jokes and distract people throughout—it's a bit of sleight of hand. You get to say something important while doing goofy slapstick.
SLIM: I mean, there's a literal slap in Thunder Road that'll knock your socks off.
GENMA: Wow.
JIM: There is.
SLIM: Not spoiling anything.
GENMA: That is—and that is controversial.
JIM: A big regret.
GENMA: And I know you read Letterboxd reviews, Jim.
JIM: I do.
GENMA: Have you thought about that scene since in terms of seeing reactions to it and wondered if you would change anything?
JIM: I don't think that I—so yeah, so at the end of Thunder Road, my character does a lot of stuff but at the end of the road, he slaps a corpse and it is the corpse of his ex wife, recently. And it is pretty graphic. And most people when they see it gasp and then a few messed up people laugh. But I wanted to show something that was really voyeuristic, that you're in a room with a guy who's alone, he's a cop. And I kept it in because I thought, you know, I've seen all these A24 movies and they're relatively unsanitized and Dario Argento is doing all kinds of crazy stuff like that. And like, it is interesting though, to put it into a drama and a comedy, it becomes more shocking. It's like the bed of nails theory. If you go into a horror movie, you're far more okay with someone getting their head cut off with chainsaw. But if it's comedy and someone slaps a corpse, it can be far more shocking. It's one nail rather than a bed of nails. Harder to stand on. But no, it is it is interesting. There are like reviewers on Letterboxd, I mean even friends like Demi Adejuyigbe, who when he first saw it said, 'I think it's a perfect movie, except for this one thing that happens in the end.' And that's fine. I mean, that's, you know, I made the movie in 2017. And it's okay. And yeah, I think I can't change it now. So it's there, unfortunately.
GENMA: Or fortunately, depending on how people are rating it. Speaking of ratings…
JIM: Yeah.
GENMA: We've talked about this before about the fact that you only rate things five stars on Letterboxd and if they're not a five star for you, then we pretty much know about it, because you don't rate it. But that is not to say it's not a four star. But what you also do, is you go through other people's Letterboxd reviews of your movies and thank them, or give other great feedback. And I just think wow, that's quite time and labor intensive, but also really lovely.
JIM: It's great. It's great. It's part and parcel for me. One of them is you know, the endorphin rush of people—and finally seeing the reaction of people watching the films. You know, I haven't been able to greet people in a lobby, having screened a movie recently, it's nice to kind of have an interaction. The first rule of filmmaking, you should know your audience. This is like the perfect way to know the audience and how the films are actually working inside the minds of the viewers. And then also, there are people on Letterboxd that will review the Thunder Road and say, this movie couldn't have come at a better time for me, I was so lost and I just lost someone. And I always message those people or I'll find them on Twitter and do the same thing and say, hey, I'm here, if you ever need to talk. And that kind of becomes your job. If you make a really deeply emotional movie, you become this lightning rod for people who are going through hell, in the same way that Springsteen was. It's an honor, and it's not taxing on me. It's nice to be able to help people.
GENMA: And then there are the people who watch Thunder Road and write "Jim Cummings plays a very hot DILF" (Slim laughs)
JIM: That is true. I think I responded to that one.
GENMA: You did!
JIM: I think I might have "Oh, Christ."
GENMA: Oh lord.
JIM: Oh lord!
GENMA: Oh lord! (Gemma laughs)
JIM: It takes all kinds on Letterboxd.
GENMA: I mean, speaking of hot DILFs, shall we talk about Clive Owen?
JIM: Oh my god! Perfect transition. Theo Faron played by Clive Owen in Children of Men, one of my favorite movies of all time. He is so wonderful. And so… you can't take your eyes off of him. And the movie's basically following him the whole time. But that performance, it was like the first time I really took my hat off to that guy. (music from Children of Men plays) I think the first time first time I saw him was Croupier back in the day, they had it on HBO when I was a kid. And so I had known of him. But then seeing that film, I walked out of the movie theater and bought a ticket and walked right back in.
GENMA: Wow!
JIM: It was unbelievable. 2007. And I had grown up in high school and in film school, watching Tarkovsky movies and seeing you know, long takes. And Y tu mamá también has has like so many single take coverage of scenes. And so I knew that that could be, you know, something that I'd like to do. And then seeing it done so well in Children of Men, it felt like this beautiful fusion of what Spielberg was doing and then what Tarkovsky was doing, and I was like, oh, you can do them both at the same time! This is so cool for me. And I loved it. Yeah, that movie is one of the most emotional films that I can think of only in retrospect. It's an action film when you're watching. It's just disguised as an action film. But then you realize that he is trying to save this child, as a love letter to his child who died a few years prior. And when you're watching it, I watch it with my mom—later in life. And in the moment when he runs into the building and everybody's shooting at each other. It's a war zone. And it's like, this guy's insane. What is he doing? He should just like run away. My mom was like, "No. That's what you do as a parent, like, that's what you're supposed to do." And it's so beautiful. It's it's such an incredibly poignant, incredibly executed film. And, yeah, it's an experience.
GENMA: Do we have a second round of tears?
JIM: Come on! Every time she calls me out for it!
GENMA: You are earning your money today.
JIM: Well you asked me my favorite movies! This is part of me! This is why I got into this stuff. (Gemma laughs) I should have never have agreed to this podcast. (Gemma & Slim laugh)
SLIM: I fully support men being in touch with their emotions and expressing their emotions to the fullest. I'm 100% on board.
JIM: Live on air. Yeah, great.
SLIM: Absolutely. Especially if it's on a podcast, even better. Especially one that I'm on. (Gemma chuckles) 2006 this came out. I rewatched this this past week. Five stars. Easy.
JIM: Easy!
GENMA: Easy.
SLIM: The first few minutes of this movie are so bonkers! This movie is so timeless. I forgot about a ton of this movie. You know, Clive Owen, miraculously, there's a pregnant woman. He's a former activist. He's protecting her. There's so many good long take shots. I mean, the chase scene where the biker pulls up to the car with Julianne Moore.
JIM: It's unprecedented. It's unbelievable.
SLIM: Are you kidding me with that scene? You can't top this!
JIM: And you can't believe you're watching it either! It's like, there's so many magic tricks that go into that. If you Google for anybody listening, what the behind the scenes is on that film. It's insane. They had to build the car and then they have, they have tchibo the cinematographer on the roof of the car and lighting setup. And then they accomp in a fake roof, and then move the camera around on the inside and all of the actors had to put their seats back so that the camera can move over them for certain moments. It's like a ballet circus to get that experience of being in the car. And it it shows itself, it's like one of the best magic tricks in cinema history. And they had no business. That movie has no business being that good. And it's unbelievable.
GENMA: I want to talk about quiet moments in this film, because we talk a lot about these big shots and these you know the incredible shootout in the building at the end and then the the soldiers stopping. For me, it's moments like when Clive Owen and Michael Caine are just sitting on the couches at Michael Caine's house chatting and there's ginger cat and there's the dog and there's you know, beautifully, beautifully behaved really fluffy pets and they're just kind of petting them and chatting about old times.
JIM: It feels like you're getting stoned with Michael Caine in his living room, it's great. (Slim laughs)
GENMA: Yeah, right? Yeah. And also, you know, we've only got a couple of hours of these people. And any scene like that, that takes, I don't know, maybe it's three minutes, but it feels like you've been awake in that house. In those three minutes you've built up the history. There's so many ways in which you can do exposition in a movie that can take you out of the moment and change the tone. And in this film, we learn that Michael Caine was a great political cartoonist. We learn that his wife was one of the world's best, you know, war photographers. We learned it through living with these characters rather than being told. And my favorite such thing is when Michael Caine's character is telling Kee and Miriam what happened to Theo and Julian's son. And he's in the foreground, he's just in the foreground by the kitchen, listening, pouring himself a wine. Listening. And we're learning in the background what happened to that son. You know, partly it's also interesting watching it this week, because they talk about—the film came out in 2006, they talk about losing him in the influenza epidemic of 2008. And I'm like… spooky.
JIM: Yeah, I mean, that's subtlety. Like to focus the camera and the story entirely on him pouring himself something. And then you're hearing this guy who's being talked about listen to one of his best friends tell the story that's tragic in the background. And you're just seeing them out of focus being told this stuff. It's like, you're with this guy. And it just, it immediately connects you to him. Another wonderful thing that they do—two things. All the animals love Theo. They love Clive Owen. They're always like climbing on his legs. That's just such a wonderful thing for the filmmakers to be like, this is a likeable guy, you know the animals love him! And then the other one is they're constantly showing what's going on his feet. Where like, he'll step outside in socks, and then it's just wet! (Gemma laughs) And then he's like, oh, poor guy. And then he has to go through this sequence with just like wet socks. And then he's got to put flip flops on in their big battle sequence.
GENMA: Yes!
SLIM: Yeah…
JIM: Like the guy's going through this like rubble in flip flops, like this poor guy. And then like when they cut to those small moments of like a breather in between these big action scenes, it's like him with his feet in hot water. And it's like, we're okay now. (Gemma & Slim laugh) This is sick. It's great. It's great.
SLIM: Jim, I thought you were gonna say your favorite scene with Michael Caine was when he said that iconic line (Slim in British accent) pull my finga! (Gemma laughs)
JIM: It's actually right before that. And it's when Michael Caine comes out, and he's telling them to get in the car. And his whole performance of his character is oh, this is fine. I dealt with this in the war. Like, this is nothing kid. And he waves goodbye like this to a little baby. Or to the girl, she's leaving. And then they take off and then it cuts to them in the rooftop. And the guy comes out of the house, the bad guy comes out of the house, and goes "there's a dead woman and a dog inside." And so he knew, he went in to do this thing knowing that he was going to get killed and he's just faking it for his friends to make sure they got away safe. Unbelievable!
SLIM: Also I'm pretty sure he tells him—or when they encounter him in from the house, when he doesn't pull his finger. He's like, fuck you. (Slim & Gemma laugh)
JIM: Yeah. Shoots him in the hand as a fuck you.
SLIM: That's so good.
GENMA: The other great exchange when we first meet Michael Caine in the car with Clive Owen, obviously is when they're talking about Baby Diego, and what a wanker he was! He was a wanker!
***
JIM: Which is so great. I feel like that's how most people talk about stuff that's in the news. It's like, this guy you're supposed to love has no reverence for this kid. He didn't have a choice. Maybe just the youngest kid. It's just great. So great.
SLIM: Should we get to the main course of the evening? The 'Burbs starring Tom Hanks. 3.5 average. This is your final favorite movie, and your top four on Letterboxd. I have heard of this movie growing up. And I grew up—I put in my Letterboxd review—I grew up with like Scrooged, I watched Scrooged every year and I feel like I don't love it as much every year I watch it. I pick it apart. But The 'Burbs is a movie I was like comparing the Scrooged. Man, I wish I could watch this every year. It's not on Hulu. It's not on Netflix. And I was a man possessed when I watched this movie for the first time last week. Five star. Easy five star again!
JIM: Easy!
SLIM: Easy. But Jim, how does this fall into your life? Where did you first see this movie? And what's its impact on you?
JIM: So the trick is you got to get the blu ray from England and you got to order it on eBay and it'll come in and that's how you got to watch it. And you have to convert a Blu-ray player in your house to be another region. (Slim laughs)
SLIM: Easy enough.
JIM: Easy! So this movie came into my life when I was a child. We had it on VHS and my dad for a minute had a van that had a TV mounted in the centerpiece of the van. So like right behind his head and it had a VCR in it so we would watch Indiana Jones and The 'Burbs all the time. And it's funny, it's like The 'Burbs because we had it, I assumed everybody had this movie that it was like you know, universally loved. But really it flopped kind of, when it came out. It did not do as well as they thought that it would despite the quality of its filmmaking. But I used to watch it all the time. And I always found it so funny because the character of Art is just so ridiculous. He is this like boomhauer kind of like Mike Judge-style character where everything that you're laughing at about this character is how his brain works. And I think that's how… that's what got me into comedy, I think, was watching this film and understanding the ensemble social dynamics of the cul de sac and how this nutcase Art was a part of it. And there are so many wonderful zingers from this guy. I mean, obviously his last line in the film, where Rumsfeld says, hey—
***
JIM: And he turns around and goes 'my wife is home?!' (Slim & Gemma laughs) It just gets you into the guy's head and like I didn't know that you could do that with comedy until I saw this film. Like there is such thing as character comedy where any other character in the film saying that dialogue wouldn't work, it has to be this guy, it's so specific. And that movie really educated me of what exciting filmmaking and comedy are fused together and I still think it's probably the best.
SLIM: When I watched Wolf of Snow Hollow after watching The 'Burbs, I was like man, I totally could see Tom Hanks in your role. I was like, you know, almost like swapping them and it would work perfectly. But with The 'Burbs, Joe Dante directed from, you know, the director of Gremlins, follows Tom Hanks' character his and his buddy, on this cul de sac, there's something nefarious happening in one house. This is another timeless movie, you could think of you talking with your neighbors about another neighbor. And you're not really sure during the majority of the film, if there is a horror element to this plot, you know, until you get to the very end. I agree with you. This is a movie that I want to like throw DVDs at people. You need to watch this movie.
JIM: It's unbelievable.
SLIM: We need Paramount to wake up a little bit and put this on some kind of app.
JIM: It's great because it is—well it's a Universal film.
SLIM: Oh.
JIM: I only know that because the opening. Because it has the dope shot of moving around the Universal coming in.
SLIM: Ohhh.
GENMA: Yes! It's on one of the lists on Letterboxd, there's a great list called Subverting the studio logo.
JIM: Oh, no way! (Slim laughs)
GENMA: Burbs makes it in.
JIM: It's so cool. It is so cool. And then Zodiac, another one where they have the old the old Paramount logo.
GENMA: Yes! It's like the 1960s or 70s one to get you in the mood. So yeah, I think really like that kind of filmmaking is just so absent these days. Where like it is something that feels like it is a Twilight Zone episode, done as a comedy that is like a timeless idea about you know, who are these strange people that live next door? It smells like they're roasting a cat in their basement. (Slim laughs) Like, somebody's gotta say something. And it's all done in this like patina of a summer fun movie, and then the horror stuff slips in. And it's really interesting that it's like, it's like they're doing both at the same time so well, and then—I'm not spoiling anything. But at the end of the film, the climax of the film, there is a wonderful monologue, one of the best by Tom Hanks, it's kind of all one shot, where he comes to the conclusion that the Klopeks are not bad guys, they're not evil ghouls, they are normal people and that they're the bad guys. They are the ones who have been jumping fences and burning the neighbor's houses down.
GENMA: Yeah! (Gemma laughs)
JIM: It's like we're the people that live in the suburbs who have lost their minds. And it's so poignant, and so wonderful. And then the movie becomes something different after that. But it's really, really poignant. It leaves the audience thinking, oh, that's the point of this movie. And it's really good.
GENMA: One of the many, many things that made me giggle. And I'd never seen this before, you know, obviously, some reason it flopped overseas. So I don't know if it made it into theaters in New Zealand. You know, and I am certain I would have gone because this is exactly the kind of jam me and my brothers were into through the 80s, early 90s. So it was a first time watch for me this week. And it's a long time, like, you know, there are movies that made me laugh. Wolf of Snow Hollow makes me laugh, but it's a long time since the movie just made me giggle. Just outright. Like there's a difference between a giggle and laugh, right? And there were just moments where like—doors slamming open! So many doors hit so many people in this movie.
JIM: The brownies?
GENMA: Yeah, the brownies! (Gemma laughs) Corey Feldman holding the plate of brownies! I'm like wow, what a great piece of art department that plate was, because they smashed up so beautifully!
JIM: It's so wonderful. I'm realizing how much I steal from this movie, but the poignance of Art walking through the house and he has this lighter, he's like lit a cigar, and he has this lighter. They're in their neighbor's house has disappeared and he takes the lighter and he goes "eh, it's all gonna end up in like a junk pile a couple weeks from now" like he's assuming the guy's dead and he pockets the lighter and it keeps walking trying to be cool. And then Tom Hanks goes, "are you going to take that lighter out your pocket? Are you not gonna steal that from our neighbor's house?" (Gemma laughs) And it's like the movie commenting on itself that you could totally get away with in a normal movie. It's so incredible.
GENMA: One of the lists that this film is on on Letterboxd is called Films that anticipated the notion of being too online. And it is. It's a little bit like these guys are kind of stuck in a, you know, in a Facebook group full of disinformation or something. (Slim laughs)
JIM: Oh, I would love to do that!
GENMA: Right?!
JIM: To make a movie about a Facebook group in a neighborhood and then how toxic that can get. (Gemma laughs) Also, they act like children throughout. They're like boys throughout and they're supposed to be grown men. One of my favorite moments is when he's in the doghouse with Carol, Carrie Fisher. And then he's out on the porch and he sees his friends walking up the driveway. He goes "no, don't come up here!" And then she comes up and goes "what are you guys doing here?" He goes "we're wondering if Ray can come out and play?" and she goes, "he's not able to come out until he resembles the man I married" and then Art goes—
***
GENMA: It's just genius! Meanwhile, you've got Corey Feldman who he's little bit like Statler and Waldorf. Right? He's the guy on veranda—
JIM: The oracle.
GENMA: Yeah, kind of commenting on the whole thing. And then there's this beautiful moment when his girlfriend says—he's set up on the on the veranda to watch what's going down tonight because they're going into the neighbor's house. And she's like, "can we just go watch a movie?" He's like "A movie? That's not real. It's the same as television! This is real! This is my neighborhood!" (Gemma laughs)
JIM: He's so good in that movie. And he becomes this like chaperone for the audience where it's like, the audience is laughing at these characters. And then when he's describing them, it's like, "This is Ray. He's the guy who really knows what's going on. And this Art, he's a dumb idiot. Then like they smoke cigars together they think their wives don't know about." It's like really funny contextualizing kind of leading the audience's excitement through the movie. It's brilliant. I got to talk to Joe Dante a few weeks ago.
GENMA: Shut up!
JIM: Yeah. So yeah, I told you this on the pre-show. But I live about four blocks from the cul de sac of The 'Burbs and live right next to Universal Studios now, which is really cool.
SLIM: Ridiculous.
JIM: I get to like walk up the road and just be like, oh, that's where they shot it. It's unbelievable. And then I'm watching the movie now, I'm like, that's a hill! I know that hill in the background. And he said that they shot the whole film chronologically. So they shot it scene one, scene two, scene three, for the most part because of people's schedules. And because they had to blow up the house at the end. And he said it was really ridiculous. Because so often with these comic actors, they were getting better improv than what they were getting in the script. So, so much of it was improv because it was working on the day. And I was like, how do you do that?! Like, all of my films are so forensic, they have to be! And he's like, Universal was paying for it! (Slim laughs) Universal is paying for a Tom Hanks movie.
GENMA: Speaking of making movies, The Beta Test. It's on the circuit now. I just want to know why all the secrecy? Why can't we have a screener? What's the story? Why is it so special?
JIM: Yeah. So for a long time, we had anonymous sources named in the credits. Sorry, the film is about the WGA packaging fight with the agency world. So it is a real, or was a real time thing when we were making it and finishing the film. So we didn't want anybody to see it. We have testimony and documents that went into the film, that makeup, some of the dialogue and some of the background and we 11 assistances, agents, ex agents and ex assistants give us testimony of what it's like to work in an agency during this fight. And it's brutal. Laughing about it now, but it is really a toxic and awful workplace specifically for women. And it's crazy. So we didn't want anybody to see it. And instead we had screenings in my backyard for anybody that wanted to come and see it. And now it's finally going to come out into the world in the first week in November, and then it'll be in theaters in October in the UK, maybe Australia and friends.
GENMA: So we don't have to feel left out for too much longer.
JIM: No, I think very soon.
SLIM: We have a section on this show where we go through your movies on Letterboxd that you rated higher than the average.
JIM: Oh!
SLIM: According to Letterboxd. So we pulled up a few titles, you know, maybe we can get a few quick takes. But Leonardo DiCaprio's film appeared on this list that you gave five stars.
JIM: The Beach, I assume.
SLIM: Yeah, The Beach.
JIM: The Beach is a wonderful movie that makes me feel nostalgic for life I never had. The music is fantastic. It's about Thailand in the late 90s, early 2000s. And it's just entire mise-en-scene is so wonderful and fun and sexy. And then the Alex Garland story of it being this wonderful, glorified, youthful, sexy adventure and pot smoking then becomes extremely real and humanistic, and about how man is the most dangerous animal and it's very poignant. So that's why I really love that film.
GENMA: Wow, there's another one on there. This turns up again! This is like, we're into episode six now, and this is the second time that Tintin has made an appearance as a five banger for one of our guests.
JIM: It is so unreal. And it's weird that like it hasn't really been talked about as one of the adventure classics that many of his other films or their other films have been. But it's so fun to watch. And it's so exciting and adventurous. And it's so well paced. It's incredible to look at! Like I don't know how—it must have been the most expensive movie of all time. But the performances are fantastic. And you're constantly with the characters. A bunch of long takes. Really exciting, fun, thrill ride for the whole family. And it's Tintin. It's like my favorite comics growing up, so I'm double spoiled. I think that that is such a masterpiece of filmmaking.
GENMA: Last time we spoke you had just come from an audition for one of the greatest directors in the world.
JIM: I did.
GENMA: I don't know if you got a role and that movie.
JIM: I did not. (Slim laughs) But if you want to rub it in… I'm here all day. (Gemma laughs)
SLIM: Vintage Gemma.
GENMA: But I guess, you know, when are we going to see Jim Cummings in something not written and directed by Jim Cummings?
JIM: So the director she's talking about Martin Scorsese, who saw Wolf of Snow Hollow, I think on iTunes when it came out, because I assume he saw it on iTunes and said The Wolf of something else?! What? They stole my title! (Gemma laughs) And clicked it and watched it and really enjoyed it. And he brought in, I think three or four actors from the cast from that film to audition for the new movie. And I think at least one of them has a part in the film, but it's not me. But it was fine! I get to meet his casting director Ellen Lewis, who casts everything. She's unbelievable. And treated me like a real actor, which is insane. But I never get asked, really. Nobody asks me to act in movies. I'll be in a big one that's coming out later this year. No spoilers.
GENMA: Bond. (Slim laughs)
SLIM: Oh my god.
GENMA: Surely. (Gemma laugh)
JIM: Yeah, I'm in it for a second and I get a shot and fall down a flight of stairs. No, no. I'm in one that's coming out in the fall that's bigger that I didn't direct, that I'm stoked.
GENMA: Is that a secret?
JIM: I don't think it's a secret, I just haven't told anybody yet.
SLIM: I think that's technically a secret.
JIM: I'm in Halloween Kills.
SLIM: Is that real? Oh my god! Really?
GENMA: Are you serious?
SLIM: Man, you must've been sitting on that for a while right?
JIM: Nah, it's about two years ago. Wilmington in October of 2018, 2019?
SLIM: Oh my god.
GENMA: Holy shit, Jim!
JIM: Yeah. It's really cool. A real hero of mine, David Gordon Green. I saw All the Real Girls when that movie came out and that was another one for me that you can be a southern boy and make movies.
SLIM: Probably just retire after that. It's no getting better than that, entering into the Halloween lore.
JIM: In the Michael universe, yeah.
SLIM: Geeze.
JIM: Yeah, yeah, I would love to act in more movies. It's just, the only time I ever get cast in stuff is when I say I want to make a movie and then I just direct myself.
SLIM: Martin probably watched Inside Out and didn't like it.
JIM: He had some criticism about my top four Letterboxd movies. (Slim laughs)
SLIM: He's listening to this and he just slammed his fist on the table. He's like, "I can't stand his top four!" (Gemma laughs)
JIM: "The 'Burbs?! Nah, not gonna happen! Get this kid off my set!"
GENMA: Is there anything else you want to say to the people of Letterboxd before you go?
JIM: Keep sharing movies with me. Like I really have raised the ceiling of my happiness and fulfillment over the last year which is people saying "Hey, you should check out this one. This one's really good." And I wouldn't have seen Corpus Christi had it not been for Letterboxd and people saying this is worthwhile. Yeah, keep sharing stuff with me, it means the world.
(The Letterboxd Show theme music Vampiros Dancoteque by Moniker plays alone, fades out)
GENMA: Thanks so much for listening to The Letterboxd Show and thanks for our guest this episode, Jim Cummings sharing his love of his favorite movies. The Beta Test, the next one from him, is coming to US cinemas, digital and On Demand via IFC later this fall if you're in the Northern Hemisphere, or later this spring for me, and it's opening earlier in some other lucky territories.
SLIM: You can follow Gemma, Slim—that's me—and our HQ page on Letterboxd using the links in our episode notes. Thanks composing dynamos, Moniker for the theme music Vampiros Dancoteque. And if you're enjoying the show and have guest ideas, be sure to leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. Quick shout out to Natalia for her review and guests recommendation.
GENMA: And thanks very much to Linda Moulton, our Booker. And that's the show! I'm gonna go change into my vacation togs.
(The Letterboxd Show theme music Vampiros Dancoteque by Moniker plays alone, fades out