[ Author: Spirits; Title: Episode #217 - Theatre Superstitions; Tags: theatre, paranormal, chat ]
Amanda: Welcome Spirits Podcast, a boozy dive into mythology, legends, and folklore. Every week, we pour a drink and learn about a new story from around the world. I'm Amanda.
Julia: And I'm Julia.
Amanda: And this is Episode 217: Theatre Superstitions, yo.
Julia: You know, I couldn't think of a better topic to discuss on our five-year anniversary. We've been doing this for five years.
Amanda: Oh, my god, that's longer than I was in college and the same length of time you were in college—
Julia: That is true.
Amanda: —because you got a bunch of work experience.
Julia: I did. I did. I did a five-year program and I worked for a year and a half in my field. And it was great. And it didn't lead to anything.
Amanda: Yeah. Well, Julia, I, I couldn't imagine doing such a long project with anybody else. And I'm so thankful that this is such a part of our week. We used to exhaustedly record in my apartment from, like, 8:00 to 10:00 PM and then you had an hour and a half commute home.
Julia: Sure did.
Amanda: And it was fun still, but less sustainable. And, so, I'm just – I'm so grateful to you and to all of our patrons for helping make this our jobs.
Julia: Yeah, it is so great to be able to record this on a weekday and not commute to your apartment at 8:00 o'clock at night.
Amanda: What a long strange trip it's been. And I definitely am going to make sure that I don't say the name of the Scottish play in a podcast studio just in case – just in case.
Julia: Whoops. Whoops. Uh-oh.
Amanda: You'll hear all about it. This is a great episode and I can't wait to get to it. But, first, we have to thank those who just joined our Patreon: Ingrid, Briana, Ryan, Katy, and Lex the Future Urban Legend. Really courting disaster there Lex. I respect it. Thank you very, very much for joining.
Julia: Thank you very much.
Amanda: And thank you too to our supporting producer level patrons: Uhleeseeuh, Allison, Debra, Hannah, Jane, Jen, Jessica Kinser, Jessica Stewart, Keegan, Kneazlekins, Liz, Megan Linger, Megan Moon, Phil Fresh, Polly, Skyla, and SamneyTodd, as well as our legend level patrons: Audra, Drew, Jack Marie, Ki, Lada, Mark, Morgan, Necroroyalty—
Julia: An upgrade.
Amanda: Ooh, what an upgrade. Renegade and Bea Me Up Scotty.
Julia: What all wonderful people. I hope that you get a private performance of your favorite play when it is safe to go to theaters again.
Amanda: A thousand percent. Speaking of which, Julia, I spent much of last night listening to musical soundtracks. A little bit weepy. What have you been reading, watching, or listening to?
JS: Well, Amanda, you recommended in episodes this book so many times, but I don't think it's been an official recommendation.
Amanda: Ooh.
Julia: So, what I'm gonna recommend is the book that I'm currently in the middle of, which is Cleopatra: A Life by Stacy Schiff.
Amanda: Do you see the stuff about incense? It's amazing.
Julia: It's so good. We just got to Caesar's death and—
Amanda: Yes.
Julia: —her leaving Rome and all of the stuff with Octavian and Mark Antony.
Amanda: Oh, my god.
Julia: And it's – it's incredible It's so good. We know so little about her.
Amanda: I know. I know. I literally was like, "Oh, I don't know. Like, a vaguely too beautiful queen and there is just so much more to it."
Amanda: I – ahh! I love that book. I'm so glad you're liking it.
Julia: It's so good. Thank you for the recommendation again. And our listeners should pick it up as well.
Amanda: You're so welcome. And, speaking of which, everybody, if you're looking for more stuff to listen to after you catch up on Spirits this week, Meddling Adults is back with Season 3 – that's very exciting – today and some pretty great guests this season as well. And there have been all kinds of really fun crossovers and, and guest appearances on Multitude recently. Julia was on Exolore a few months ago. Eric Silver was on Exolore and Potterless. You can hear Mike twice every other week on the Horse and Potterless along with Adam. And Exolore is just on a roll. Loving Moiya so much and loving, loving this content mill we call life.
Julia: That makes it sound sad. We really do love it though.
Amanda: We really do love it though. Particularly, I really enjoyed the, the debate we had in Head Heart Gut this month on kitchen appliances. I go hard for the toaster oven. You can hear me do that tomorrow, Thursday. And it takes just $5 if you want to join our MultiCrew. It's a fantastic way to support Multitude and help us do cool, weird, new stuff. That's on multicrew.club.
Julia: I love doing cool, weird stuff. Hopefully, we get to do more cool, weird stuff in 2021.
Amanda: That's the plan. Well, without further ado, everybody enjoy Spirits Podcast Episode 217: Theater Superstitions.
Julia: Bangbang.
Amanda: And happy anniversary, Jules.
Julia: Happy anniversary, Amanda.
***
Julia: Okay. Amanda, I just wanted to say that I think this is going to be a great episode. And, before we really get into it, you know, I just want to wish you good luck.
Amanda: Oh, why – about what? What am I doing?
Julia: Or I would wish you good luck, Amanda, except you and I both know, as perennial theater nerds who caught our teeth in an extremely aggressive high school theater program, that—
Amanda: Too aggressive.
Julia: —wishing anyone good luck is actually in fact very bad luck.
Amanda: Yeah, you got to tell me to break my leg.
Julia: Of course. Exactly. Theater people are extremely superstitious people and for good reason. Theaters can be really dangerous places if you aren't careful. You can trip over a costume that you aren't used to yet. You could fall from a ladder while hanging and adjusting lights because—
Amanda: Mhmm.
Julia: —baby, those are tall. And don't get me started on the amount of near accidents I've seen happen when you give a 16-year-old access to power tools to build a set.
Amanda: Yep.
Julia: It's a real dangerous place to be, the theater.
Amanda: It is. Like, you know what? The 14-year-old can't touch it, but, the 16-year-olds, they're in charge.
Julia: Those two years really make a difference when it comes to a miter saw.
Amanda: Yeah, not, not to me. Not to me.
Julia: And, at the same time, Amanda, plays success hinges on everyone's ability to work together to create the best show possible. And, even if that miraculously happens, their fate is still left to the hands and whims of an audience and critics. So, when I meant to meant to wish you good luck before, Amanda, what I really meant to say, as you pointed out, was break a leg.
Amanda: Hey, thank you.
Julia: Because it is better to hedge our bets when it comes to the success of our show, no matter how superstitious it means we have to be. So, Amanda, I think that it's time. Since we have always been theater nerds in our hearts and our minds and it is our fifth anniversary of doing this show—
Amanda: What?
Julia: —I wanted to talk about a much requested topic for this episode, which is theater superstitions.
Amanda: Yay! We have touched on this in, I think, roundups. We've touched on it a bunch in your urban legends episodes. I love choosing theater ghost haunting situations. But I think this is such a lovely and, and personal, you know, thing to celebrate for our fifth anniversary. That's five years longer than we spent together in our theater program.
Julia: That is true. That is true. And, Amanda, like we did for the sailor superstition episode, I would love if you took guesses at where each of these superstitions came from.
Amanda: Oh, my absolute pleasure. I already have a thesis about why theater people love hauntings so much.
Julia: Great. I also will talk about that. And then we can – we can discuss at the end.
Amanda: Let's do it, Julia. Break a leg on this episode. You're gonna do great.
Julia: Oh, thanks, Amanda. But that begs the question. Why do we say break a leg?
Amanda: Okay. The thing I heard is that you are telling somebody I hope that you have to bow at the end of the performance so many times that you break your little starched pant line on the costume of yours that gets, like, starched and pressed in between each performance. So, you bow, and bow, and bow. And your knee bends, and bends, and bends. And then that lovely little line on the front of your pants breaks.
Julia: I love that one. That's extremely cool. I think that this might, however, predate the starching of pants perhaps.
Amanda: Wow. Tell me.
Julia: There are a couple of reasons that I could find, each with as dubious in origin as the next. One historian claims that the phrase dates back to the early 1900s. It was something that was said to prospective actors before auditions. It was a kind of like somewhat joke. Reason being that, if you wish someone that they "break their leg," it meant that we would wind up in a cast. Get it? Ba dum tsss!
Amanda: Oh, I thought you were gonna say, you know, you're – you're smiling at somebody and waving at them across the theater. And you – and you mouthed something that should be good luck. But, instead, you say, "I hope you break your leg and I get the part."
Julia: Yes. I, I think that is something that a lot of people have said before. But—
Amanda: Oh, yeah.
Julia: Another origin theory has to do with the proscenium stage.
Amanda: Yes.
Julia: Do you remember, Amanda, what the proscenium stage is?
Amanda: Oh, our first test in drama class? Yes, I do. It is a, a stage that is framed with a big beautiful molding and curtain. Like a picture frame.
Julia: Yes, it's from the Ancient Greek. And it, specifically, is like a stage that is divided into areas. And the proscenium is the area of the stage that exists between the curtain and where the pit where the orchestra is.
Amanda: Yeah, on some theaters, it's like a couple feet. And, on others, it's pretty big and wide.
Julia: So, in a proscenium-style stage, the legs are what you call the kind of like tall, narrow drape that hangs at the sides of the stage in order to mask the wings.
Amanda: Oooh!
Julia: So, it's – they're designed so that you don't see backstage or see the actors or the set pieces before they come on the stage. To break the legs is to pass them in this case. So, to get onto the stage and really make it, you know.
Amanda: Oh, nice. It's like breaking the fourth wall in a way because you have to – you know, you have to get past it to be seen.
Julia: Exactly. And this also comes from Vaudeville traditions where actors were not paid unless they made it onto the stage, aka broke the legs.
Amanda: Hmm. Nice.
Julia: So, that's a fun one. Yet another theory has to do with the audience. Supposedly, in Ancient Greece, the audience showed their appreciation by stomping their feet rather than clapping. And, so, the hope was to perform so well that they stomped hard enough to break their own legs.
Amanda: I hope all of these are true.
Julia: I, I do too. Another has to do with Elizabethan times where, instead of applauding again, the audience would bang their chairs on the ground. And the hope here was that they would break the leg of the chair because they were so enthralled with the performance.
Amanda: Very nice. Well, I know that the Groundlings had no chairs in the pit in there where the tickets used to be cheap and you brought your sheep along with you.
Julia: That is true.
Amanda: So, all, all the rich folks banging chairs. I'd like to imagine one of them breaks it and is like, "Oh, ah," and then just leaves.
Julia: I like it. I like it. They can pay for it though. Yeah.
Amanda: Yeah. Yeah.
Julia: And one of the final ones I wanted to point out is simply a reference to a performer bowing at the end of their performance kind of like what you said. Breaking a leg, in this instance, is actually bending one's leg in order to bow or curtsy to the audience.
Amanda: Oh, yeah. All right. I got it.
Julia: Yeah, exactly. Like, you want the audience to applause enough that you are going to get to bow and/or curtsy. So—
Amanda: I mean that's just – that's just the hope.
Julia: Yeah. Now, you might be wishing someone break a leg before your opening night, Amanda. But do you know what is also said to guarantee a good opening?
Amanda: No, I've heard bad dress, good opening.
Julia: Exactly.
Amanda: Yay!
Julia: Bad dress rehearsal means a good opening. I, I couldn't quite find the origin on this one. I kind of like imagine some director telling a very disheartened cast that this was the case.
Amanda: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's 1,000 percent a management trick where you're like, "Guys, it's good. We got all them." Like, it's true. Like, you get all the mistakes out. You make sure people are attuned to what could go wrong instead of just feeling like, "We've rehearsed forever. It's opening night. Let me go get drunk afterward."
Julia: Yeah.
Amanda: And just kind of like breeze through the performance. So, I absolutely recognize that as a – as a management tactic.
Julia: Exactly. You don't want them to be in their own heads. The logic, like you said, is that, like, the cast and crew is much more prepared for disaster, which means they're able to anticipate when things go wrong or correct them before they go bad. An acting coach named Mark Westbrook also chalks this up to probability and statistics. You want to hear this one?
Julia: Hmm. Yes.
Julia: So, he says, "You see, it's something called regression to the mean." It says—
Amanda: Okay, Mark. Oh, I don't know about that.
Julia: Okay. Well, it says that, if the first time you measure something the measurement is extreme, then the next measurement will be closer to the average. If the second measurement is extreme, then the first will be closer to the average. So, this means that, if the dress rehearsal is terrible, the first night is much more likely to be tons better.
Amanda: But, if the dress rehearsal is okay and the opening night is terrible, then the opening night was still terrible.
Julia: Yeah.
Amanda: So, like, I, I see where it comes from.
Julia: Mhmm.
Amanda: But I see where it comes from for sure.
Julia: Yeah, you want that dress rehearsal to be terrible so that the likelihood that you're opening night is closer to average or better is, is the hope.
Amanda: For us, the dress rehearsal also determine how early our call time was the next day. So, if the dress rehearsal had mistakes, A, you needed to go over notes and have people in earlier on opening night. But, also, the director could ask people to come in in time enough for another rehearsal without pissing them off because that's like you saw what – everyone felt it. We all saw. We need more rehearsal time.
Julia: You all saw that it sucked last night, right? Okay. Great.
Amanda: I saw you miss your cue, Jeremy. Did you see you miss your cue?
Julia: So, break a leg is supposed to bring a production or an actor good luck as is a terrible dress. But let's talk about something that is unlucky because theatre people seem to prefer superstitions that bring bad luck rather than good luck. Or, rather, they like to avoid doing things rather than doing things, you know.
Amanda: Sure. Sure. That makes sense.
Julia: So, we'll touch on this one quick because it seems like it comes up in superstitions all the time, whether or not it's theater, or sailors, or otherwise. And it's whistling.
Amanda: Oooh.
Julia: So, it is considered unlucky or a jinx to whistle while backstage. This time though, it isn't just a superstition. It's actually very practical. In theaters where the scenery and curtains are controlled by hand rather than like hydraulics or rigging systems, stage hands would signal to each other their cues with whistles.
Amanda: Hmm.
Julia: If an actor or someone else in the production was to whistle backstage at an inappropriate or inopportune time, it can be extremely dangerous as the stagehands might interpret that as their cue and, like, lift or drop scenery onto someone.
Amanda: Yeah, it never even occurred to me. We had just like closed circuit, like, headsets. And it never occurred to me how people did it before those were around, apart from just, like, listening and hoping.
Julia: Yeah.
Amanda: But that makes complete sense. My version would be, if somebody was yelling like, "32, go!" you know, backstage when that was not the cue.
Julia: Mhmm. Exactly. And, even now with advanced systems, whistling backstage in a modern theater is still discouraged for whatever reason. It's still kept up with the superstition. And, actually, a small fun fact before we move on from this one, back in the 17th century, theaters would often hire sailors while they were on shore leave or between jobs to run the fly rigs and the curtains, which might be why whistling is considered unlucky because, as we know, sailors were already wary of whistling as we established in our sailor superstition episode.
Amanda: Oh, I love that.
Julia: Yes.
Amanda: So good. Labor markets, guys.
Julia: I like the just the sailors being like, "Yeah, you know, I don't set off for Belfast for another couple of weeks. But, you know, might as well pick up a job while this production's doing Hamlet."
Amanda: Yeah. And then they're hanging out backstage and someone's like, "Oh, yeah. Who's that guy over there? I don't know. La-di-da," and then whistles. And then he's like, "Don't." And they're like, "Okay. Fine. Yes."
Julia: Don't fucking do it.
Amanda: Okay.
Julia: Love a good sailor. Here's one that I hadn't heard of before, actually, that I think is probably a little outdated now. But blue is a color that you should never wear on stage apparently.
Amanda: Why? Because it fucks with the lights and the white balance.
Julia: That's a good guess. That's not the case.
Amanda: Ooh.
Julia: So, the superstition reason isn't really clear. I think it's just like one of those colors is unlucky kind of things, you know, like, people across different traditions have. But the practical reason for the superstition is actually really interesting and cost effective.
Amanda: Ooh.
Julia: And that's because indigo, which is used for blue dye—
Amanda: Yes.
Julia: —used to be really, really expensive.
Amanda: I covered this in an episode – the first episode, in fact, of Head Heart Gut, the, the show that Multitude makes for members of our MultiCrew. And you also had to use a urine in early preparations of indigo.
Julia: You sure did. Did you ever read that spin off book of The Giver that was just about, like, natural dyes and stuff?
Amanda: Gathering Blue. Sure did.
Julia: Yep, exactly. That's why I knew this one right off the bat. I was like, "Oh, yeah, it was."
Amanda: That's another Spirits canonical series, everybody. It's – it's Lois Lowry's, The Giver Series. You got to read it.
Julia: The Giver, and Gathering Blue, and The Sun, which is very sad.
Amanda: It is very sad, but good.
Julia: But, anyway, indigo was super expensive, which meant blue clothing was super expensive. And, honestly, it's likely that producers just didn't want to buy such expensive costumes. So, they probably started the superstition that these costumes were unlucky.
Amanda: I've also heard that the phrase bluestocking originates in women had to be, you know, like, affluent enough to kind of support themselves and more of them had blue stockings, which were more expensive than black ones than, than other people.
Julia: I had never heard the phrase bluestocking before, but that makes sense.
Amanda: Oh, yeah. It's meant to be like a woman who – like, like, a spinster who likes books, which same. And, and it's, like, Victorian era sort of insult for somebody. And there's a great sex positive feminist bookstore in New York City called BlueStockings.
Julia: Oh, love that. Very cool. So, now, these are some of the more mundane theater superstitions. But I think, once we get back from our refill, we'll dive into the more supernatural superstitions of the theater. There will be ghosts. There will be curses. So, let's prep ourselves for all of that with a refill.
Amanda: Or intermission if you will.
Julia: An intermission this time. Yes, exactly. Go to the lobby. Get your cocktail.
Amanda: The lobby lights will flicker when it's time. All right. See in 15.
Midroll Music
Julia: Amanda, because it's been so cold lately in my apartment because it's very, very cold here in New York, I've actually been sleeping better than I usually do. But, on nights where I don't sleep well, I'm always grateful to have my Calm app.
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Julia: Heck yeah.
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Julia: So, Amanda, we just got hit by a, a big winter storm here in New York. And, as a way of kind of preparing for that, because I didn't want to order delivery or go out to the stores during a winter storm, I used Doordash to get a bunch of stuff that I needed, including some takeout.
Amanda: Oh, fantastic. There's nothing like day two or day three takeout. It really is just the best feeling to remember that you have something delicious in the fridge that you do not have to cook.
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Amanda: Mhmm.
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Julia: Now, I'm not gonna lie. I got a little sad at the idea of, like, the memory of getting cocktails before seeing a Broadway show because I just miss it—
Amanda: I know.
Julia: —so much.
Amanda: I never used to buy them and, now, I will. I'll buy a drink everywhere I go.
Julia: Now, you go to – you go to the bar first because the, the bars in the theaters were so expensive.
Amanda: Yeah.
Julia: And you'd save like $2 by going to the bar next door rather than the one that was in the theater in the – like, the little plastic cups.
Amanda: I would fully ask for a plastic cup of ice, tip the bartender $10, and then use the flask that I had in my bag to drink my own drinks during Broadway productions. I've done this dozens of times.
Julia: I've seen you do it.
Amanda: I've shared it with you.
Julia: Yeah. Yeah. What a – what a tradition. I miss it so much.
Amanda: I know. Now, I have a vacuum-sealed, little wineglass-sized tumbler that I put ice in before I leave. And, because of the technology, you see, it remains perfectly temped.
Julia: I love it so much. But champagne kind of feels very like pre-show cocktail to me.
Amanda: Yeah.
Julia: But, also, sometimes, you want to get a buzz that's gonna last you the whole show. So, I decided to go with a Champagne Margarita today.
Amanda: Hey.
Julia: There's champagne. There's tequila. There's lime juice. There's a little bit of triple sec and some agave syrup. Fuck me up.
Amanda: I think it's just a really smart move to replace sparkling water, or soda water, or tonic with champagne whenever possible.
Julia: Yeah, absolutely. I mean it's supposed to – the reason that those mixers are there is to not make it totally alcohol. But, like, champagne's barely alcohol.
Amanda: Barely. Barely alcohol. And it is – it is sugar. So, I see how it tastes good in the Margarita. But, listen, just, just drink equal volume of water and make sure you have a little something on your tongue. They'll be fine.
Julia: Exactly. One for one ratio every time.
Amanda: Every time.
Julia: Now, that we are properly ready for the production with our buzz on, let's talk about the aptly named Ghost light.
Amanda: Hell yeah, Julia. Fuck me up, man. If you've ghost tattoo, tag us. I want to see it.
Julia: So, in practical terms, the ghost light is the light that is left on, on the stage of a theater when all of the other lights are turned off. And they're usually placed at the center of the stage or, at least, close to the center. And it's supposed to be a safety feature. If a stagehand or a lighting operator needs to navigate the theater while the lights are off, the ghost light is there to stop them from, like, tripping over set pieces or tumbling down into the orchestra pit.
Amanda: Yeah, someone has to turn the lights on in the theater. And, as someone whose job that often was, the breakers are not generally or always next to the door.
Julia: They are not where you need them to be. And that's why you need the ghost light.
Amanda: Yeah.
Julia: But, true to form for actors and stage hands, there is a little bit more of a superstitious reason for the ghost light.
Amanda: Oh, I was told it was fully there to keep the ghosts away when people were not in the theater.
Julia: Yes, exactly. And, as it said, nearly every theater has – that has, like, even a little bit of history has some kind of ghost.
Amanda: Yeah, it must. I love it.
Julia: For example, the Belasco Theater on Broadway is notoriously haunted by its namesake, David Belasco, who, in his life, was known as the Bishop of Broadway.
Amanda: Ooh.
Julia: Many people who worked in the theater have seen his ghost sitting on the balcony as if watching the performance or in the lobby, where some stories say that he'll chat with patrons before just disappearing.
Amanda: Oh, man, if I had – if I had to be a ghost somewhere and we talked about this before, being tethered on, like, 46th Street would really just be the best.
Julia: It'd be a good spot. Like, any theater honestly. But, like, if you had the ability to travel around the area and see all of the different shows as a ghost, A+.
Amanda: That's what I'm saying as like a radius type situation or maybe you – you know, you can kind of work up the strength to float through the wall and go next door to see whatever's over there.
Julia: Precisely. Radio City Music Hall is also said to be haunted by its builder, S.L. "Roxy" Rothafel.
Amanda: Ooh.
Julia: The New Amsterdam Theatre is said to be haunted by the ghost of an actress named Olive Thomas, who was a part of the infamous Ziegfeld Follies.
Amanda: Yes.
Julia: In order to appease the ghost, two portraits of her hang backstage and every member of the production wishes her good morning and good night whenever they enter and exit the theater.
Amanda: Aww. I love that. Oh, I love theater. God, I miss it.
Julia: Or, even a more ancient ghost is said to haunt several theaters. The ghost of Thespis, himself.
Amanda: What?
Julia: So, for those of you who don't know theater history, Thespis is often historically noted as the "first actor" in that he was a Greek performer who was the first to step out of the Greek chorus and play an actual character rather than just like recounting a story. As such, he is known as the Father of all Thespians, which we get our namesake from. But, if something is to go wrong during a production or in a theater that doesn't have its own well-known ghost, it is said that the production is haunted by the ghost of Thespis.
Amanda: Lovely.
Julia: It's very cute. I like him being like, "My time has come. My people are calling me."
Amanda: He's, he's like – he's like a swing. He's like a swing for any theater that has not yet developed its own ghost, which I think is a really sweet way of kind of blessing new theatre spaces.
Julia: There you go. That is absolutely true. So, because of all of these hauntings, we see the superstitious reason for the ghost light. Some say that the ghost light is so that the ghost of the theater can perform onstage when no one is there, which appeases them and stops the production from facing their ire. Others say that the ghost light actually works to ward off ghosts. Keeping them away from the stage and I guess, like, where the action is. Either way, the practical purpose of the ghost light is probably preventing new theater ghosts from joining the ranks of those haunting the theater because it is, hopefully, preventing accidents that could befall the casting crew.
Amanda: That's a very good point. I, I think my head canon is that it's the exact same reason stopping new ghosts from coming in. But I, I like to – and, if I ever write like a fantasy novel, this is definitely the direction I'd go in. So, TM, TM. But—
Julia: TM, TM.
Amanda: —theaters are places of cosmic significance. And that having an empty stage is an invitation for somebody to come in and fill it. And, you know, it's new worlds, new ideas. It's people making up new lives or, you know, reviving old lives there every single day by playing characters. And, so, having a light on and a – and a spiritual presence – you know, a light that is imbued with everybody's, you know, belief – stops other people, other ghosts from coming in because it says like, "The theater is occupied even now at night."
Julia: I mean we've set it on the show so many times, but, in our mind, ghosts are just like imprinted memories of things that happened in that place.
Amanda: Exactly. Yeah.
Julia: And that's kind of what theater is too, you know, because you're – you keep doing the same performance over and over again of words that were written in the past. And you are reenacting those words of those actions. And I think that's why theatres and acting and ghost kind of all play into the same vibe and the same hand.
Amanda: Yeah, like, I, I know it's true for me in just four years in the same theater. But I imagine anybody who's worked in a theater a single one longer than that, you know, you walk into work every day and how many memories come back to you of how many different kinds of lives, and audiences, and productions, and people. So, I, I think it really is – it's a place that evokes memory in its like everyday life and, certainly, for people who build up many memories of it over time.
Julia: Absolutely. So, speaking of lights, because we've just talked about our ghost light, you can probably imagine why lighting candles in a theater is a bad idea, right?
Amanda: Yeah. No, I get it. You're kind of – you're asking to evoke somebody.
Julia: Well, also, back when theaters were all wood and could easily burn—
Amanda: Oh, yeah.
Julia: —open flames were a risk that most people were not willing to take.
Amanda: Definitely.
Julia: I mean the original Globe Theater where Shakespeare put on his shows literally burned to the ground because they thought it was a good idea to set off an actual cannon during a production of Henry VIII.
Amanda: Yes, they did. They did that.
Julia: They super did that and it didn't go well.
Amanda: I love that history has forgotten the name of the person who suggested it. They very, much in telling the story, were like, "Yeah, it just it happened. Somebody did it. Like, it was – it was production decision. And you know, John, who had the idea and is like, "Listen, my brother, it's a cannon. It's gonna be sick. Fucking let's do it," is like cowering in the corner.
Julia: Don't even talk about it, John. We'll never mention your name. Don't worry about it.
Amanda: No, it'll be forgotten.
Julia: If, if Billy asks what happened, we won't mention your name.
Amanda: Nope. Let's go across the river and, and steal some theater.
Julia: Nowadays, we can take more precautions. And theaters, because of building codes and safety features, are definitely not as flammable as they once were. But superstition in theater always rules and rumors still say that you should never light a trio of candles on the stage.
Amanda: Because, significance?
Julia: Because it said that not only because they're three times more likely to cause a fire—
Amanda: Yeah.
Julia: —which is my hot take, but because it is said that whoever stands closest to the shortest candle of the trio will die.
Amanda: What?
Julia: Yep.
Amanda: Just with the superstitious energy of threes. Is there a three in particular here?
Julia: Yeah. No, I think it's just three is a strong number.
Amanda: It is.
Julia: Probably like I'm thinking like Shakespeare and we can talk about it later, but the Witches of Macbeth for instance.
Amanda: Yeah, I don't want to spoil it.
Julia: We'll get there. Don't worry. But, also, like, it's morbid, but the, the shortest candle is the most likely to burn out the quickest.
Amanda: Yeah.
Julia: So, if you're standing near the shortest one, your candle is gonna snuffed out sooner.
Amanda: I think that's incredibly funny.
Julia: There's a little bit of logic there. It's like a nugget of logic there.
Amanda: Yeah, it really – and I know – like, I know proper bad hazing happens within theater and, certainly, it did at our school. But I do like the, the gentle joshing of new people to be like, "Oh, yeah. Like, come, like, light this candle with us. Like, oh, like, it's a nice little thing we do." And then you're like, "Here's the shortest one. You're gonna die."
Julia: It's very much like the 13th person at the table, you know—
Amanda: Yes.
Julia: —will rise up and they'll be the first to die. Yeah.
Amanda: Totally.
Julia: And, obviously – Amanda, obviously, we, we have to finish out and talk about in this episode Macbeth. Per—
Amanda: Oh, sorry, Julia, I have to go.
Julia: Perhaps the most well-known and often parodied superstition of the theatre, which is the Scottish play.
Amanda: Whew. I came back. I just ran around the building. Link's all behind me.
Julia: So, if you don't know from theater what the big deal is when it comes to Macbeth, there, honestly, is not a single theatre person who hasn't heard that Shakespeare's Macbeth is plain old bad luck. It's cursed.
Amanda: Yeah.
Julia: It's cursed.
Amanda: It is. That is all anybody ever says about it. Like, someone might have a memory of someone whose friend, you know, whatever, but that's not ever the origin story unlike urban legends. It's just, like, this is true.
Julia: Yes.
Amanda: And this is why we do it.
Julia: So, to even utter its name in a theater is to said to burn productions down, sometimes, quite literally.
Amanda: Mhmm.
Julia: So, Macbeth was first performed in 1606. And, ever since, productions of the show have been plagued by misfortune. The most superstitious Thespians will say that the witchcraft and incantations used in the show maybe more real than Shakespeare might have intended or maybe he did intend it.
Amanda: Hmm. It does have three witches that are extremely funny and, and integral to the plot and the vibe of the show. So, when I hear three candles, anything kind of in threes associated with the theater, that's sort of my first association.
Julia: Yeah. Where shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?
Amanda: When the hurlyburly's done. When the battle's lost and won. That will be ere the set of sun. Where the place? Upon the heath. There to meet with Macbeth.
Julia: Great.
Amanda: Macbeth, which is how you really should say it anyway.
Julia: Some more practical reasons that the show is associated with accidents has to do with the fact that it has a lot more sword fighting than the average Shakespeare play.
Amanda: Oh, my god, a full battle.
Julia: Which always leads to accidents. It just always does.
Amanda: And a famous soliloquy of a character slowly kind of losing touch with reality while clutching a dagger.
Julia: Not great.
Amanda: No.
Julia: In fact, in two separate 17th century productions, an actor was killed because a real dagger was swapped in for a prop one.
Amanda: Nooo!
Julia: The body count on Macbeth is high, you'll see.
Amanda: Yoinks.
Julia: So, these aren't the only notable incidents of the Scottish play wreaking havoc.
Amanda: Julia, fully fucked me up with this one. Like, I, I have nothing to do for the next hour. I'm here.
Julia: We're gonna start with probably the most infamous and the highest body count for a production of Macbeth. In 1849, a production of Macbeth was put on at the Astor Opera House in Manhattan—
Amanda: Mhmm.
Julia: —which coincided directly with the Astor Place riot—
Amanda: Yeah.
Julia: —which killed up to 31 people and injured more than 120.
Amanda: Yeah. And, like, fully kind of changed the industry and arts in New York City and, also, that part of Manhattan, which is right next to where I went to school. It's – it's like one of those public incidents that I'm sure lots of big cities have, but I was shocked when I learned about it that I hadn't known about it before.
Julia: It was the highest loss of, like, nonmilitary life since the Revolutionary War at that point.
Amanda: Wow.
Julia: Buck wild. So, the politics behind the riot are a little bit more complicated than I can really dig into in this podcast. But what it comes down to was that there were two productions of Macbeth happening at the same time. One production starred Edwin Forrest, who was perhaps the most well-known American Actor at the time and a equally popular English actor named William Charles Macready. So, the riots were deeply rooted in classism and nativism. So, rich Anglophile theater goers favored Macready's performance while the working class Americans who were feeling alienated from English culture preferred the work of Forrest. What ended up happening was that Forrest supporters bought a bunch of tickets for Macready's performance at the Astor Opera House and started throwing things at the stage like rotten eggs, and apples, and shoes, and potatoes, and "like stinky liquid."
Amanda: It's not unlike Stonks—
Julia: Yeah.
Amanda: —and Stonksgate 21.
Julia: So, Macready was obviously really pissed about this and was like, "Nah, I'm out of here." But a bunch of rich New Yorkers, including Washington Irving and Herman Melville—
Amanda: Super rich dudes.
Julia: Yeah.
Amanda: Super rich.
Julia: —convinced him to stay and continue performing. So, three days later, when the play was scheduled to begin again, 10,000 people showed up to protest and wound up, like, just decimating the theater with rocks, trying to set it on fire. And they got into armed conflicts with the police. Macready somehow managed to finish his performance though most of it was done in pantomime because he couldn't be heard over the noise; both inside and outside the theater.
Amanda: Whoa.
Julia: And he manages to, like, sneak out in disguise.
Amanda: Damn. I mean we're – we're better than the theater to have to disguise yourself, but damn.
Julia: Yes. So, the whole thing comes to a head when soldiers are called in and try to disperse the crowd by first firing into the air and then point blank into the crowd itself. It's fucking horrible. The result, like I said, is more than 120 people were injured and up to 31 people died. Less obviously important than the loss of life, the Astor Opera House became known as the Massacre Opera House and the DisAstor Place—
Amanda: Ooh.
Julia: —which is a very, very good pun. I know – I know we just talked about a bunch of people dying, but that's a very good pun.
Amanda: Oh, fuck, let's come back to that. That's so good.
Julia: Yes. And it only survived another season before it's closed its doors for good.
Amanda: Yes, it, it was like a terrible loss of a landmark for New York City. And, you know, I would hope and think that that kind of building would still be down there because that is an area of the city where, you know, cool old stuff is preserved. But let's just do a little U turn there, Julia. DisAstor Place is so good.
Julia: DisAstor Place is extremely good and extremely funny. And I can just imagine like the New York Tribune running so many headlines.
Amanda: Particularly, because, A, okay, it's up the block from the Village Voice's headquarters. And I just think that that is fantastic. B, it is at the nexus of like four different colleges. And it is notorious for, you know, teenagers running amok drinking and, like, being out at all hours of the night, you know, in the city at all times. So, every, every person who's gone to school in New York City has had a night that could definitely be recapped as DisAstor Place.
Julia: Yes. Yes, they really have. Ho-boy!
Amanda: They used to have a 24-hour cafe there where lots of nights ended.
Julia: Hmm. Yes. So, the Astor Place Riot certainly is the most extreme version of the curse of the Scottish play. But there are several other notable cursed performances that I want to talk about, such as injuries from the Old Vic's 1937 performance for instance. An English actress named Diana Wynard fell 15 feet during the sleepwalking scene of the show. Though, true to form, the show went on and she was able to finish performing, which is very impressive.
Amanda: Oh, my god.
Julia: That is the last scene for Lady Macbeth though. So, she probably just, like, powered through and was like, "All right. No more."
Amanda: Yeah. But, like, not a ton of painkiller options back then.
Julia: Yeah. Yeah. Charlton Heston managed to burn himself during a production in 1954 in, like, an outdoor theater in Bermuda because someone, apparently, dipped his tights in kerosene.
Amanda: What?
Julia: Yeah, that's the thing that happened. And then, later, in a different performance but, like, the same, like, production, the wooden set of Macbeth's castle was set on fire on purpose for effect because it was an outdoor performance in Bermuda.
Amanda: Yeah.
Julia: But, because of the wind, the flames and smoke blew into the audience.
Amanda: Nooo!
Julia: And, luckily, no one was seriously injured, but, like, that's just buck wild.
Amanda: That is so amazing. I would love to put out a call for recommendations to anybody who likes mystery novels. If you have a favorite mystery novel set in a theater, I would love to read it. I know there's a great episode of my favorite show Elementary set in a theater having to do with a ballet dancer and, like, a very novel and very theatrical way of killing her. But I, I would love that there are so many options. There's so many options. Oh, my god.
Julia: Yes. The D. Maria the second National Theatre in Lisbon burned down in 1964 while Macbeth was being performed.
Amanda: Oh, no.
Julia: Peter O'Toole's Macbeth in 1980 was so poorly reviewed that the theatre company fully disbanded after it performed.
Amanda: Oh, poor guy. Oh, no.
Julia: And then, tragically, in 1988, Bantcho Bantchevsky, who is a Bulgarian singer and an actor, died by suicide during a nationally broadcast performance of Macbeth at The Metropolitan Opera House in New York.
Amanda: Oh, fuck.
Julia: Yeah. Invoking the name of Macbeth in a theater requires one, as is tradition, to cleanse themselves. And each theater has a different tradition on how that is done. Amanda, you seem to remember what ours was. Do you want to tell the audience?
Amanda: Ours was to, to run around the school.
Julia: It's probably a quarter mile. Maybe a little bit bigger than that. Maybe closer to a half, but yeah.
Amanda: I think, yeah. I'm trying to picture the track, like, extended around. I think shirtless. Though, mostly, it was the, the tech boys that did it. Maybe they just did it that way for fun. And then something involving salt. Maybe like throwing salts over your shoulder outside as well.
Julia: Yeah, I vaguely remember having to spin rather than doing the running.
Amanda: Mhmm.
Julia: I think the, the hardcore people would run, but the—
Amanda: Yeah.
Julia: —rest of us would do some spins.
Amanda: I never did. I went outside, toss salt over my shoulder, and said I'm in charge.
Julia: Yes, I'm in charge. I'm the captain of them. So, popular ones include spitting over your left shoulder, swearing, and, probably my favorite, which is reciting lines from other Shakespeare plays, such as Hamlet's, Angels and ministers of grace defend us, if we shadows have offended from A Midsummer Night's Dream—
Amanda: Mhmm.
Julia: —and fair thoughts and happy hours attend on you from The Merchant of Venice.
Amanda: Yeah. Or, the end of the tempest, I would imagine, would be really suitable. Yeah.
Julia: The probable reason behind the idea that the play is cursed is slightly more mundane. And this is, like, the general idea of Macbeth being cursed, not the, like, terrible things that I described earlier.
Amanda: Sure.
Julia: But Macbeth, simply put, is one of Shakespeare's most popular plays; both to perform and for audiences to go see. So, theaters that were in financial trouble would often put these on as a last ditch effort to sell tickets. And, so, the association between the show and theatre going out of business or closing aren't too much of a stretch because it's like, "Listen, we'll try Macbeth. And, if this doesn't work, we're gone."
Amanda: We have a shoestring budget. Let's skimp on safety. Someone bring a dagger. It'll be fine.
Julia: Precisely. That's – that's about it. I think it kind of just ends up begging the question. What is it about theater that invokes so many strange and varied superstitions? Is it just that Thespians aren't inherently superstitious? Or maybe it's the inherent uncertainty of the business like I mentioned earlier. You never really know if a show is going to be a flop or a hit even if it's been rehearsed for months or has the most talented cast. The lack of control opens the floodgates to ritual and superstition. To a certain extent, they do work. The Irish Times, in an article called "Break a leg, Macbeth, why are actors so superstitious?" Peter Crawley writes "Good luck superstitions, knocking on wood, keeping lucky items were found to have psychological benefits in a study by Richard Wiseman and Caroline Watt. A more recent pleasing study by Lysann Damisch, Barbara Stoberock and Thomas Mussweiler in which participants proved better at throwing golf balls into a cup when they were told their ball was lucky. It showed that a belief in luck improves people's performance of a skilled activity, which I'll pause here for a second from quote because that's such a weird scientific choice of a test.
Amanda: It, it is. I'm sure there's a reason why. I'm sure they had a room that was only, you know, 12 feet long. But I also don't know necessarily if someone else's lucky item would have that kind of effect. But I mean, clearly, the, the data proves that.
Julia: Yeah, to continue the quote, "The logical interpretation is that superstition has a placebo effect. The cause may be bogus, but the result is real. So, bolstered, theater artists or sports fans might similarly forego their rituals, whistle a happy Macbeth, issue a warm good luck, step on a crack or two. But why tempt fate?" Which I think is, is very valid. Why tempt the fate of the theater gods when it seems like the superstitions for better or for worse work? And it's not like they're really hurting anyone.
Amanda: Oh, man, that's so good. I, I think I have two additional theories here.
Julia: Go for it.
Amanda: And I think all these can be true at the same time. One is that theater welcomes weirdos. Theater welcomes the cast out people who are otherwise frowned on by society, queer people. Lots of folks have found a home in theater that they could not find anywhere else. And I think that that level of bonding and of feeling like we have traditions, we have a language, we have a culture and, you know, these are – these are my people. And, if I meet someone else, you know, out on the road, because it's a, you know, nomadic lifestyle, a hard lifestyle often, we'll have something in common. And I, I know that something binds me to my community even when there is no, like, one association. There's no one source of healthcare. There's no, like, national headquarters. There's no office. And I think that's – that's kind of one of the backbones of theater.
Julia: Yeah, it absolutely has that kind of camaraderie and brotherhood feeling to it. I know that, like, theater can be extremely competitive because there's only so many roles and only so many jobs. And there's not a lot of people, you know, making their living on theater. But the people, who are a part of it, they feel that connection to the other people in the business. And I think that is important that you are bonded by a shared history and culture and, in a sense, a shared series of superstitions.
Amanda: Yeah, I totally agree. And I think my second reason – again, a little practical, but I think also is just kind of complimentary of the ones we've already discussed – is that it is really, really important to trust your cast mates and your crew during theater. And, unlike something like a sports team, where, you know, you practice in your uniform, you practice in your stadium, or, at least, together. You know, all of you play like it – yes, you do drills and stuff. But you also play against each other, whether it's, you know, football, where, like, you split into teams or you, you know, put on different jerseys as basketball team and play against each other. And we don't get to do that in theater. Like, you don't see what the whole production looks like and have that confidence that it'll all come together until, for most of us, opening night. And, so, you go on and you rehearse in groups or, you know, the, the crew does their thing. And you see maybe the lights one day, maybe the costumes the next day, maybe, you know, for once you have all the set pieces and you do a full run through and there's disaster. Or, at least, an iffy rehearsal. But you need something to kind of, yeah, like, bring you all together to make you trust each other to kind of get to that camaraderie faster because theater doesn't make a lot of money and having ample time to bond and do lots of rehearsal is generally not most people's experience. So, I think it's kind of like a practical, you know, confidence building, team building. I have to trust you all because I do something dangerous or, at minimum, like, putting my job and reputation on the line because my great performance in a bad production still reflects badly on me.
Julia: Absolutely. And it's just like this whole conversation is making me sad because, you know, with the pandemic happening, there's no live theater really happening right now. And that is little depressing in a way. But I wanted to share this little fun fact with you before we, we finish up the episode, which is we talked about the ghost light earlier. And a lot of theaters, because of the pandemic and not knowing when live theater is going to reopen, they have left their ghost lights on throughout the pandemic—
Amanda: Aww.
Julia: —because they're like, "Hey, we know we're gonna come back eventually." You know, it is like the, the light in the dark so to speak knowing that, eventually, theater, theater isn't going to go the way of the ghosts.
Amanda: Oh, that's fantastic, Julia. And I think, if anybody is moved by this episode and you can spare a couple dollars, I think the Actors Fund is a great place to recommend that you donate to. They provide emergency financial assistance to actors of all kinds, including theater actors, at actorsfund.org or your local community theater if they're doing a fundraiser. Oh, man, I, I am so grateful for what theater did for me. Like, I, I felt like, you know, I had you as a friend and that was pretty much it until we joined our theater program and just being, being brought into a family where like, "Yes, you have fights. Yes, there's jealousy. Yes, there are people who are jerks." But it was a true home for me and it's something that I miss and something I hope to find again one day being able to like volunteer and do sets or whatever for other, you know, theater companies or schools nearby. So, I don't know, man. I'm – I'm grateful for it. And I'm – my heart goes out there to anybody who, you know, works in the field and is struggling right now. And, if you ever get the chance to, you know, pledge your support on a petition or with money or with a ticket or, you know, an email campaign to arts funding and to making sure that kids get the chance to do theater in schools. If I got super rich, that is what I would give my money to, for sure.
Julia: Yeah, theater is literally how I met my husband. So—
Amanda: Yay.
Julia: —it gives a lot, theater, in personal and, you know, emotional ways.
Amanda: The one teenager I trusted with power tools, Jake.
Julia: That's – he's the only one I trust with power tools, 100 percent.
Amanda: Amazing. Well, thank you, Julia, for this wonderful Anniversary Special. I loved it and I know that I will be misty eyed the next time I get to see a live theater and think about all these traditions.
Julia: Absolutely. Happy anniversary, Amanda. And stay creepy.
Amanda: Stay cool.