<story><title>OpenAI used Kenyan workers on less than $2 per hour to make ChatGPT less toxic</title><url>https://time.com/6247678/openai-chatgpt-kenya-workers/</url></story><parent_chain><item><author>autodev1</author><text>BS? Based on what experience of yours?&lt;p&gt;I spoke with a US Civil Engineer who worked in Honduras in the 1980&amp;#x27;s, clearing paths in forests for electrical transmission lines.&lt;p&gt;He initially paid workers significantly higher than local wages-- US-level wages.&lt;p&gt;The result:&lt;p&gt;--&amp;gt; He was threatened with harm by bosses of local companies.&lt;p&gt;Why? He took all their workers.&lt;p&gt;The local companies couldn&amp;#x27;t compete-- they lost all their labor to his company which paid relatively (relative to Honduras) exorbitant wages.&lt;p&gt;His US company literally destabilized the local labor economy.&lt;p&gt;So, I wouldn&amp;#x27;t be so quick to jump to &amp;quot;that is BS&amp;quot;, as in my opinion it exemplifies naivete &amp;amp; ignorance.</text></item><item><author>NickC25</author><text>&amp;gt;&lt;i&gt;I&amp;#x27;ve heard arguments in the past of paying &amp;quot;acceptable&amp;quot; US wages to people in other countries would destabilize the other country more than it would help.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;p&gt;Which honestly is a bullshit argument.  The only destabilizing thing here is it would make the person in the higher-paying profession more valuable to society and more able to make economic impact where it might not normally.  In this case, a rising tide does lift all boats...because you&amp;#x27;re giving more economic purchasing power to more people.  Will this kill some businesses or disrupt the status quo? Yeah.  Will it help more people than it hurts?  Maybe, probably, who knows?  But I personally see no problem with paying people relative to their output, no matter where in the world they are.&lt;p&gt;Having been to Kenya myself and worked with Kenyan developers for several years, most of whom were quite talented, I see absolutely no problem with paying them their value relative to the work being done.  I have no problem with high skilled Kenyans making much more than the local average because they have a skill that is in demand all around the world.&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt;&lt;i&gt;the salary should be paying for the work being done and that&amp;#x27;s it&lt;/i&gt;&lt;p&gt;100% agree.  If a business derives $X profit from a laborer and agrees to pay a given % of $X to the laborer as compensation, it should not matter if the laborer is in a high cost or low cost of living area - the business still makes the same amount in profit, and shouldn&amp;#x27;t get to say &amp;quot;hey yeah we made $10mm off your application, but we&amp;#x27;re going to only pay you 5% of our profits as compensation because you live in Bangladesh and the cost of living is lower, so be happy with what we&amp;#x27;re giving you&amp;quot; when if you did the exact same labor and lived in, say, LA or NYC, they&amp;#x27;d give you 10%.  Just bullshit IMO.</text></item><item><author>dylan604</author><text>I&amp;#x27;ve heard arguments in the past of paying &amp;quot;acceptable&amp;quot; US wages to people in other countries would destabilize the other country more than it would help. I&amp;#x27;m not an economist, so I don&amp;#x27;t know how valid those arguments are. I have always thought they were more scare tactics used in favor of being able to pay those low wages for as long as they could get away with it. I could see though how paying a small-ish number of people wages that dwarfs the larger number of people could cause a bit of turmoil.&lt;p&gt;to me, it goes back to the argument about remote workers should be paid less than the in office worker. or workers living in cheaper areas should be paid less than those living in expensive areas. to me, the salary should be paying for the work being done and that&amp;#x27;s it. if the same level of work is being done by both employees, it shouldn&amp;#x27;t matter if one is in Kenya and the other is in the US. the value of the work is what should be getting compensated. again though, i&amp;#x27;m no economist.</text></item><item><author>yawboakye</author><text>fellow african here, with a few questions.&lt;p&gt;could the average income in kenya be around $1.25 because companies decide to pay abysmally? or the people don&amp;#x27;t merit any higher? would openai be offending the kenyans if they paid them, say, $5&amp;#x2F;hour? i think this is the question you should grapple with. openai will be selling this tech around the world, and i wonder if these $2&amp;#x2F;hr workers can afford it at all. would they, or their loved ones, be able to enjoy produce of their labor?</text></item><item><author>Ombudsman</author><text>To put it in perspective, the average income in Kenya is around $1.25 an hour and tbh (as a Kenyan) I really can&amp;#x27;t see it as a bad thing. A lot of people here live in abject poverty, they live in situations you can&amp;#x27;t really begin to imagine. So any sort of help coming our way is good.</text></item></parent_chain><comment><author>henryfjordan</author><text>Who got hurt by &amp;quot;destabilizing the labor economy&amp;quot;? The bosses who were perfectly fine resorting to threats and extortion? It certainly wasn&amp;#x27;t the workers.&lt;p&gt;It is fine to recognize that people who wield economic power might be upset when a new economic power arrives in town, but to describe the new guy who is trying to do the right thing as somehow immoral is classist nonsense.</text></comment>
<story><title>OpenAI used Kenyan workers on less than $2 per hour to make ChatGPT less toxic</title><url>https://time.com/6247678/openai-chatgpt-kenya-workers/</url></story><parent_chain><item><author>autodev1</author><text>BS? Based on what experience of yours?&lt;p&gt;I spoke with a US Civil Engineer who worked in Honduras in the 1980&amp;#x27;s, clearing paths in forests for electrical transmission lines.&lt;p&gt;He initially paid workers significantly higher than local wages-- US-level wages.&lt;p&gt;The result:&lt;p&gt;--&amp;gt; He was threatened with harm by bosses of local companies.&lt;p&gt;Why? He took all their workers.&lt;p&gt;The local companies couldn&amp;#x27;t compete-- they lost all their labor to his company which paid relatively (relative to Honduras) exorbitant wages.&lt;p&gt;His US company literally destabilized the local labor economy.&lt;p&gt;So, I wouldn&amp;#x27;t be so quick to jump to &amp;quot;that is BS&amp;quot;, as in my opinion it exemplifies naivete &amp;amp; ignorance.</text></item><item><author>NickC25</author><text>&amp;gt;&lt;i&gt;I&amp;#x27;ve heard arguments in the past of paying &amp;quot;acceptable&amp;quot; US wages to people in other countries would destabilize the other country more than it would help.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;p&gt;Which honestly is a bullshit argument.  The only destabilizing thing here is it would make the person in the higher-paying profession more valuable to society and more able to make economic impact where it might not normally.  In this case, a rising tide does lift all boats...because you&amp;#x27;re giving more economic purchasing power to more people.  Will this kill some businesses or disrupt the status quo? Yeah.  Will it help more people than it hurts?  Maybe, probably, who knows?  But I personally see no problem with paying people relative to their output, no matter where in the world they are.&lt;p&gt;Having been to Kenya myself and worked with Kenyan developers for several years, most of whom were quite talented, I see absolutely no problem with paying them their value relative to the work being done.  I have no problem with high skilled Kenyans making much more than the local average because they have a skill that is in demand all around the world.&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt;&lt;i&gt;the salary should be paying for the work being done and that&amp;#x27;s it&lt;/i&gt;&lt;p&gt;100% agree.  If a business derives $X profit from a laborer and agrees to pay a given % of $X to the laborer as compensation, it should not matter if the laborer is in a high cost or low cost of living area - the business still makes the same amount in profit, and shouldn&amp;#x27;t get to say &amp;quot;hey yeah we made $10mm off your application, but we&amp;#x27;re going to only pay you 5% of our profits as compensation because you live in Bangladesh and the cost of living is lower, so be happy with what we&amp;#x27;re giving you&amp;quot; when if you did the exact same labor and lived in, say, LA or NYC, they&amp;#x27;d give you 10%.  Just bullshit IMO.</text></item><item><author>dylan604</author><text>I&amp;#x27;ve heard arguments in the past of paying &amp;quot;acceptable&amp;quot; US wages to people in other countries would destabilize the other country more than it would help. I&amp;#x27;m not an economist, so I don&amp;#x27;t know how valid those arguments are. I have always thought they were more scare tactics used in favor of being able to pay those low wages for as long as they could get away with it. I could see though how paying a small-ish number of people wages that dwarfs the larger number of people could cause a bit of turmoil.&lt;p&gt;to me, it goes back to the argument about remote workers should be paid less than the in office worker. or workers living in cheaper areas should be paid less than those living in expensive areas. to me, the salary should be paying for the work being done and that&amp;#x27;s it. if the same level of work is being done by both employees, it shouldn&amp;#x27;t matter if one is in Kenya and the other is in the US. the value of the work is what should be getting compensated. again though, i&amp;#x27;m no economist.</text></item><item><author>yawboakye</author><text>fellow african here, with a few questions.&lt;p&gt;could the average income in kenya be around $1.25 because companies decide to pay abysmally? or the people don&amp;#x27;t merit any higher? would openai be offending the kenyans if they paid them, say, $5&amp;#x2F;hour? i think this is the question you should grapple with. openai will be selling this tech around the world, and i wonder if these $2&amp;#x2F;hr workers can afford it at all. would they, or their loved ones, be able to enjoy produce of their labor?</text></item><item><author>Ombudsman</author><text>To put it in perspective, the average income in Kenya is around $1.25 an hour and tbh (as a Kenyan) I really can&amp;#x27;t see it as a bad thing. A lot of people here live in abject poverty, they live in situations you can&amp;#x27;t really begin to imagine. So any sort of help coming our way is good.</text></item></parent_chain><comment><author>Aunche</author><text>At least in the case of Honduras, more people clearing paths for transmission lines accelerates the development of infrastructure that the locals can use. On the other hand, OpenAI moderation doesn&amp;#x27;t do anything for Kenyans. You can see the effect of this is countries that heavily rely on tourism like Thailand and Bali. The smartest and hardest working people end up serving foreigners rather than their domestic population. Places that aren&amp;#x27;t catered towards tourists are completely neglected.</text></comment>