<story><title>NYC subway and bus services have entered &apos;death spiral&apos;, experts say</title><url>https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/nov/20/new-york-city-subway-bus-death-spiral-mta-fares</url></story><parent_chain><item><author>em3rgent0rdr</author><text>Sorting that wikipedia table by recovery ratio, I see most of the profitable ones are in East Asia and distance based:&lt;p&gt;Osaka (OMTB)	137%, 
Hong Kong MTR	124%, 
Osaka (Hankyu Railway)	123%, 
Tokyo Metro	119%, 
London Underground	107%, 
Singapore (SMRT)	101%, 
Taipei Metro	100%.&lt;p&gt;Clearly it is possible to have profitable subways, so I don&amp;#x27;t think we should drop profitability as a goal.</text></item><item><author>rayiner</author><text>Nobody expects the NYC subway to &amp;quot;break even or even turn a profit.&amp;quot; The subway historically recovers less than 50% of its operating expenditures from fares, compared to 70% for Berlin, 88% for Amsterdam, and over 100% in Tokyo, Taipei, Hong Kong, and Singapore: &lt;a href=&quot;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&amp;#x2F;wiki&amp;#x2F;Farebox_recovery_ratio&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&amp;#x2F;wiki&amp;#x2F;Farebox_recovery_ratio&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;p&gt;MTA is broke because it costs several times as much for MTA to do anything compared to its counterparts in other Europe: &lt;a href=&quot;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.nytimes.com&amp;#x2F;2017&amp;#x2F;12&amp;#x2F;28&amp;#x2F;nyregion&amp;#x2F;new-york-subway-construction-costs.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.nytimes.com&amp;#x2F;2017&amp;#x2F;12&amp;#x2F;28&amp;#x2F;nyregion&amp;#x2F;new-york-subway-...&lt;/a&gt;.</text></item><item><author>DoubleGlazing</author><text>The problem with urban transport systems is that no one sees them for what they really are... an expensive thing that drives the economy. There seems to be an obsession in the west with making public transport pay for itself, but the reality is that a few billion invested in better public transport results in a lot more billions being made elsewhere.&lt;p&gt;We need to get away from this idea that public transport systems need to break even or turn a profit. They are there to help make money in other ways. An efficient reliable transport system should cost the taxpayer money, but they will get that back in profit elsewhere through a thriving local economy.</text></item></parent_chain><comment><author>eigenvector</author><text>The business entity that owns the subway being profitable is not the same as the subway being profitable. MTR for instance is a real estate developer as well as a subway operator:&lt;p&gt;&amp;quot;As compensation for the cost of building railway networks, the government grants the MTR Corporation land development rights along its rail lines, stations and depots – an increasingly lucrative business in recent years amid a red-hot property market.&amp;quot;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.scmp.com&amp;#x2F;news&amp;#x2F;hong-kong&amp;#x2F;economy&amp;#x2F;article&amp;#x2F;2136403&amp;#x2F;mtr-corp-announces-64-cent-rise-net-profit-hk168-billion&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.scmp.com&amp;#x2F;news&amp;#x2F;hong-kong&amp;#x2F;economy&amp;#x2F;article&amp;#x2F;2136403&amp;#x2F;...&lt;/a&gt;</text></comment>
<story><title>NYC subway and bus services have entered &apos;death spiral&apos;, experts say</title><url>https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/nov/20/new-york-city-subway-bus-death-spiral-mta-fares</url></story><parent_chain><item><author>em3rgent0rdr</author><text>Sorting that wikipedia table by recovery ratio, I see most of the profitable ones are in East Asia and distance based:&lt;p&gt;Osaka (OMTB)	137%, 
Hong Kong MTR	124%, 
Osaka (Hankyu Railway)	123%, 
Tokyo Metro	119%, 
London Underground	107%, 
Singapore (SMRT)	101%, 
Taipei Metro	100%.&lt;p&gt;Clearly it is possible to have profitable subways, so I don&amp;#x27;t think we should drop profitability as a goal.</text></item><item><author>rayiner</author><text>Nobody expects the NYC subway to &amp;quot;break even or even turn a profit.&amp;quot; The subway historically recovers less than 50% of its operating expenditures from fares, compared to 70% for Berlin, 88% for Amsterdam, and over 100% in Tokyo, Taipei, Hong Kong, and Singapore: &lt;a href=&quot;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&amp;#x2F;wiki&amp;#x2F;Farebox_recovery_ratio&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&amp;#x2F;wiki&amp;#x2F;Farebox_recovery_ratio&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;p&gt;MTA is broke because it costs several times as much for MTA to do anything compared to its counterparts in other Europe: &lt;a href=&quot;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.nytimes.com&amp;#x2F;2017&amp;#x2F;12&amp;#x2F;28&amp;#x2F;nyregion&amp;#x2F;new-york-subway-construction-costs.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.nytimes.com&amp;#x2F;2017&amp;#x2F;12&amp;#x2F;28&amp;#x2F;nyregion&amp;#x2F;new-york-subway-...&lt;/a&gt;.</text></item><item><author>DoubleGlazing</author><text>The problem with urban transport systems is that no one sees them for what they really are... an expensive thing that drives the economy. There seems to be an obsession in the west with making public transport pay for itself, but the reality is that a few billion invested in better public transport results in a lot more billions being made elsewhere.&lt;p&gt;We need to get away from this idea that public transport systems need to break even or turn a profit. They are there to help make money in other ways. An efficient reliable transport system should cost the taxpayer money, but they will get that back in profit elsewhere through a thriving local economy.</text></item></parent_chain><comment><author>jcoffland</author><text>Just because a profitable subway exist does not mean it&amp;#x27;s possible anywhere in the world.  The location, geography, culture and population density all affect profitability.</text></comment>