<story><title>VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks</title><url>https://mailman.videolan.org/pipermail/vlc-devel/2015-November/105002.html</url></story><parent_chain><item><author>coldtea</author><text>&amp;gt;&lt;i&gt;There is no 40% group of the population in Europe that holds views that are anywhere near as disgusting as that.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;p&gt;Well, only 50+ years ago there was an over 40% population in the US that thought that blacks were inferior and shouldn&amp;#x27;t sit in the same restaurants&amp;#x2F;hotels&amp;#x2F;schools with whites. In fact it was even law in some states.&lt;p&gt;Beyond that, there were about all major western countries, France, UK, Belgium, Holland, Italy, etc, that had other people enslaved in colonies up until the sixties. 2+ billion people had their countries managed by foreigners, and their fellow countrymen tortured and executed when asking freedom (and sometimes, just killed for fun).&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.theguardian.com&amp;#x2F;uk&amp;#x2F;2012&amp;#x2F;apr&amp;#x2F;18&amp;#x2F;britain-destroyed-records-colonial-crimes&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.theguardian.com&amp;#x2F;uk&amp;#x2F;2012&amp;#x2F;apr&amp;#x2F;18&amp;#x2F;britain-destroyed-...&lt;/a&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.monbiot.com&amp;#x2F;2005&amp;#x2F;12&amp;#x2F;27&amp;#x2F;how-britain-denies-its-holocausts&amp;#x2F;&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.monbiot.com&amp;#x2F;2005&amp;#x2F;12&amp;#x2F;27&amp;#x2F;how-britain-denies-its-hol...&lt;/a&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.independent.co.uk&amp;#x2F;news&amp;#x2F;world&amp;#x2F;africa&amp;#x2F;inside-frances-secret-war-396062.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.independent.co.uk&amp;#x2F;news&amp;#x2F;world&amp;#x2F;africa&amp;#x2F;inside-france...&lt;/a&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.theplaidzebra.com&amp;#x2F;human-zoos-one-europes-shameful-secrets-ended-50s&amp;#x2F;&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.theplaidzebra.com&amp;#x2F;human-zoos-one-europes-shameful...&lt;/a&gt;&lt;p&gt;Heck, even in Paris itself, the French police famously killed over 200 Algerians marching for their country&amp;#x27;s freedom in a single day in 1961 -- and it took them 40+ years, after all officials were dead or too old, to finally admit it and ask for an apology.&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&amp;#x2F;wiki&amp;#x2F;Paris_massacre_of_1961&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&amp;#x2F;wiki&amp;#x2F;Paris_massacre_of_1961&lt;/a&gt;&lt;p&gt;These countries also thought that they should have a say as to whether a remote country should have this or that president or regime -- to the point of toppling legitimate regimes, bombing those countries, coming to assist one party or another in a civil war, etc.&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&amp;#x2F;wiki&amp;#x2F;1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&amp;#x2F;wiki&amp;#x2F;1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9ta...&lt;/a&gt;&lt;p&gt;There have been over 2 million victims of those interventions in the last 10 years alone. Every despicable hit by muslim terrorists (and we all agree its despicable) was met with 4-5 orders of magnitude many more innocent victims on those countries.&lt;p&gt;If some muslim country managed to harm 1&amp;#x2F;100 that number of, say, Texans, where would the percentages of &amp;quot;tolerance&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;acceptance&amp;quot; towards them go?&lt;p&gt;We should condemn all violence -- not forgive the one that has better PR and is done by cool looking people who have the same background as us.</text></item><item><author>fauigerzigerk</author><text>&lt;i&gt;&amp;gt;And a very large number of people in my country would happily throw back those fleeing the carnage to become victims of that 40%&lt;/i&gt;&lt;p&gt;That statement really doesn&amp;#x27;t make much sense at all. People are fleeing a war, among them people from the 40% and the 60% group alike. And no one in Europe is advocating throwing anyone back into a war zone. Many want the refugees stay somewhere in the region instead of letting them come to Europe by the millions.&lt;p&gt;It&amp;#x27;s not my opinion, but please don&amp;#x27;t compare that opinion with people who advocate that homosexuals, adulterers and apostates should be put to death. There is no 40% group of the population in Europe that holds views that are anywhere near as disgusting as that. Your relativism goes too far.&lt;p&gt;[Edit] And just to make it clear, I do not believe that it is really 40% who really hold those opinions. It&amp;#x27;s probably less. I hope.</text></item><item><author>jacquesm</author><text>&amp;gt; a significant number of adherents of Islam hold ideas that are incompatible with an open society.&lt;p&gt;Significant numbers of non-Islam subscribers hold ideas that are incompatible with an open society too. All these people have at least one thing in common: they would like to change society to suit their ends.&lt;p&gt;And a very large number of people in my country would happily throw back those fleeing the carnage to become victims of that 40%. Which in my opinion makes them just about as bad.</text></item><item><author>cygx</author><text>Of course it&amp;#x27;s not &amp;quot;all Muslisms&amp;quot;. But those who claim &amp;quot;it&amp;#x27;s only the terrorists&amp;quot; or &amp;quot;it&amp;#x27;s all politics&amp;quot; do not grasp the scope of the problem, ie that globally speaking, a significant number of adherents of Islam hold ideas that are incompatible with an open society.&lt;p&gt;If you naively extrapolate from the 2013 Pew Poll &lt;i&gt;The World’s Muslims: Religion, Politics and Society&lt;/i&gt; (which in principle represents nations with a total Muslim population of about 1 billion), 40% of these think you should be killed for leaving Islam.&lt;p&gt;To me, that&amp;#x27;s a scary number.</text></item><item><author>iamthepieman</author><text>I work with a Muslim and I&amp;#x27;m a Christian. Since we are both very conservative, I actually have more in common with him than with my secular coworkers and friends. Unfortunately we both work remotely and live several hundred miles from each other. I think we could be good friends if we lived closer.&lt;p&gt;One thing I have learned talking with my Muslim coworker is that, just like in Christianity, there are many divisions and sects within the religion. I am Atlantean and go to an Atlantean church. I would not want to be called a Phoenician or Liliputian christian (made up names cause I don&amp;#x27;t want to offend anyone this early in the morning).&lt;p&gt;Just as with anything else, the closer and more involved you are with something the more you see distinctions between different categories of that thing. As a total outsider your categories tend to be large, all encompassing and dominated by the loudest, most visible or most discussed sub category. For most westerners I think that sub category is, unfortunately radicalised Muslims.&lt;p&gt;I&amp;#x27;m fortunate that my coworker has given me a different perspective. I never believed all Muslims were radicalised but the true revelation for me was that my Muslim coworker was more like me than most non-muslims. It saddens me to see states in my country rejecting refugees from Syria. They are depriving their residents of potential friends and coworkers, potential spouses, neighbors or playmates that can give them a new perspective and help make their world a little larger and more interesting.&lt;p&gt;Edit: I&amp;#x27;d love to have a discussion with anyone who disagrees with me. (Not really making an argument but whatever) if you&amp;#x27;re down voting at least make a comment please.</text></item></parent_chain><comment><author>tezza</author><text>Thanks for a measured and informative response. I could add to your list reams of links of where &amp;#x27;we&amp;#x27; have behaved badly.&lt;p&gt;I suspect you too have a bulging bookmark folder like I do of hypocritical western behaviour.&lt;p&gt;However the battle against militant jihadi extremists is one issue where &amp;#x27;we&amp;#x27; are completely in the right. Completely.&lt;p&gt;No need to apologise for past wrongs. If we have regarded life as too cheap in the past, that is irrelevant to ensuring your own family cannot be killed.&lt;p&gt;Now prior actions of our own may have exacerbated, strengthened and accelerated the militant jihadis ( Iraq, Afghanistan ). But even without our own errors and crimes militant jihadis would have arisen eventually.&lt;p&gt;The jihadis have so many &amp;#x27;reasons&amp;#x27; to kill us. If some &amp;#x27;reasons&amp;#x27; did not exist because we didn&amp;#x27;t invade Iraq say, or we addressed other &amp;#x27;reasons&amp;#x27; ( say for example we disbanded Israel ) there are just so many more &amp;#x27;reasons&amp;#x27; left for the jihadis that single us out for killing.&lt;p&gt;Lets say Iraq was still under Saddam and Syria under Assad. No ISIS perhaps. What then about al Qaeda, the Taliban, al Qaeda in the Yemen, Boko Haram, Jemaah Islamiyah.&lt;p&gt;And the militant jihadis have found a brainwashing method that repeatably draws from a small but replenishing minority of evil, vain and stupid young people.</text></comment>
<story><title>VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks</title><url>https://mailman.videolan.org/pipermail/vlc-devel/2015-November/105002.html</url></story><parent_chain><item><author>coldtea</author><text>&amp;gt;&lt;i&gt;There is no 40% group of the population in Europe that holds views that are anywhere near as disgusting as that.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;p&gt;Well, only 50+ years ago there was an over 40% population in the US that thought that blacks were inferior and shouldn&amp;#x27;t sit in the same restaurants&amp;#x2F;hotels&amp;#x2F;schools with whites. In fact it was even law in some states.&lt;p&gt;Beyond that, there were about all major western countries, France, UK, Belgium, Holland, Italy, etc, that had other people enslaved in colonies up until the sixties. 2+ billion people had their countries managed by foreigners, and their fellow countrymen tortured and executed when asking freedom (and sometimes, just killed for fun).&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.theguardian.com&amp;#x2F;uk&amp;#x2F;2012&amp;#x2F;apr&amp;#x2F;18&amp;#x2F;britain-destroyed-records-colonial-crimes&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.theguardian.com&amp;#x2F;uk&amp;#x2F;2012&amp;#x2F;apr&amp;#x2F;18&amp;#x2F;britain-destroyed-...&lt;/a&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.monbiot.com&amp;#x2F;2005&amp;#x2F;12&amp;#x2F;27&amp;#x2F;how-britain-denies-its-holocausts&amp;#x2F;&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.monbiot.com&amp;#x2F;2005&amp;#x2F;12&amp;#x2F;27&amp;#x2F;how-britain-denies-its-hol...&lt;/a&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.independent.co.uk&amp;#x2F;news&amp;#x2F;world&amp;#x2F;africa&amp;#x2F;inside-frances-secret-war-396062.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.independent.co.uk&amp;#x2F;news&amp;#x2F;world&amp;#x2F;africa&amp;#x2F;inside-france...&lt;/a&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.theplaidzebra.com&amp;#x2F;human-zoos-one-europes-shameful-secrets-ended-50s&amp;#x2F;&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.theplaidzebra.com&amp;#x2F;human-zoos-one-europes-shameful...&lt;/a&gt;&lt;p&gt;Heck, even in Paris itself, the French police famously killed over 200 Algerians marching for their country&amp;#x27;s freedom in a single day in 1961 -- and it took them 40+ years, after all officials were dead or too old, to finally admit it and ask for an apology.&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&amp;#x2F;wiki&amp;#x2F;Paris_massacre_of_1961&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&amp;#x2F;wiki&amp;#x2F;Paris_massacre_of_1961&lt;/a&gt;&lt;p&gt;These countries also thought that they should have a say as to whether a remote country should have this or that president or regime -- to the point of toppling legitimate regimes, bombing those countries, coming to assist one party or another in a civil war, etc.&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&amp;#x2F;wiki&amp;#x2F;1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&amp;#x2F;wiki&amp;#x2F;1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9ta...&lt;/a&gt;&lt;p&gt;There have been over 2 million victims of those interventions in the last 10 years alone. Every despicable hit by muslim terrorists (and we all agree its despicable) was met with 4-5 orders of magnitude many more innocent victims on those countries.&lt;p&gt;If some muslim country managed to harm 1&amp;#x2F;100 that number of, say, Texans, where would the percentages of &amp;quot;tolerance&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;acceptance&amp;quot; towards them go?&lt;p&gt;We should condemn all violence -- not forgive the one that has better PR and is done by cool looking people who have the same background as us.</text></item><item><author>fauigerzigerk</author><text>&lt;i&gt;&amp;gt;And a very large number of people in my country would happily throw back those fleeing the carnage to become victims of that 40%&lt;/i&gt;&lt;p&gt;That statement really doesn&amp;#x27;t make much sense at all. People are fleeing a war, among them people from the 40% and the 60% group alike. And no one in Europe is advocating throwing anyone back into a war zone. Many want the refugees stay somewhere in the region instead of letting them come to Europe by the millions.&lt;p&gt;It&amp;#x27;s not my opinion, but please don&amp;#x27;t compare that opinion with people who advocate that homosexuals, adulterers and apostates should be put to death. There is no 40% group of the population in Europe that holds views that are anywhere near as disgusting as that. Your relativism goes too far.&lt;p&gt;[Edit] And just to make it clear, I do not believe that it is really 40% who really hold those opinions. It&amp;#x27;s probably less. I hope.</text></item><item><author>jacquesm</author><text>&amp;gt; a significant number of adherents of Islam hold ideas that are incompatible with an open society.&lt;p&gt;Significant numbers of non-Islam subscribers hold ideas that are incompatible with an open society too. All these people have at least one thing in common: they would like to change society to suit their ends.&lt;p&gt;And a very large number of people in my country would happily throw back those fleeing the carnage to become victims of that 40%. Which in my opinion makes them just about as bad.</text></item><item><author>cygx</author><text>Of course it&amp;#x27;s not &amp;quot;all Muslisms&amp;quot;. But those who claim &amp;quot;it&amp;#x27;s only the terrorists&amp;quot; or &amp;quot;it&amp;#x27;s all politics&amp;quot; do not grasp the scope of the problem, ie that globally speaking, a significant number of adherents of Islam hold ideas that are incompatible with an open society.&lt;p&gt;If you naively extrapolate from the 2013 Pew Poll &lt;i&gt;The World’s Muslims: Religion, Politics and Society&lt;/i&gt; (which in principle represents nations with a total Muslim population of about 1 billion), 40% of these think you should be killed for leaving Islam.&lt;p&gt;To me, that&amp;#x27;s a scary number.</text></item><item><author>iamthepieman</author><text>I work with a Muslim and I&amp;#x27;m a Christian. Since we are both very conservative, I actually have more in common with him than with my secular coworkers and friends. Unfortunately we both work remotely and live several hundred miles from each other. I think we could be good friends if we lived closer.&lt;p&gt;One thing I have learned talking with my Muslim coworker is that, just like in Christianity, there are many divisions and sects within the religion. I am Atlantean and go to an Atlantean church. I would not want to be called a Phoenician or Liliputian christian (made up names cause I don&amp;#x27;t want to offend anyone this early in the morning).&lt;p&gt;Just as with anything else, the closer and more involved you are with something the more you see distinctions between different categories of that thing. As a total outsider your categories tend to be large, all encompassing and dominated by the loudest, most visible or most discussed sub category. For most westerners I think that sub category is, unfortunately radicalised Muslims.&lt;p&gt;I&amp;#x27;m fortunate that my coworker has given me a different perspective. I never believed all Muslims were radicalised but the true revelation for me was that my Muslim coworker was more like me than most non-muslims. It saddens me to see states in my country rejecting refugees from Syria. They are depriving their residents of potential friends and coworkers, potential spouses, neighbors or playmates that can give them a new perspective and help make their world a little larger and more interesting.&lt;p&gt;Edit: I&amp;#x27;d love to have a discussion with anyone who disagrees with me. (Not really making an argument but whatever) if you&amp;#x27;re down voting at least make a comment please.</text></item></parent_chain><comment><author>kelukelugames</author><text>Isn&amp;#x27;t France still collecting some form of colonial tax from African countries?</text></comment>