<story><title>Changes to Models S and X allow them to travel longer without larger batteries</title><url>https://www.tesla.com/blog/longest-range-electric-vehicle-now-goes-even-farther</url></story><parent_chain><item><author>quanticle</author><text>They break at much much lower rates, because they have many fewer parts. EVs don&amp;#x27;t have the pistons, valves, belts, fans, compressors, alternators, spark plugs, etc that gasoline engines have. There&amp;#x27;s probably order of magnitude fewer parts to break.&lt;p&gt;Having seen the interior of an automatic gearbox, the surprising thing to me is that conventional automobiles are as reliable as they are.</text></item><item><author>ajuc</author><text>&amp;gt; EVs don&amp;#x27;t need the large established dealership base and their included maintenance facilities&lt;p&gt;I never understood that. Why does power source matter in the context of dealership base and maintenance? EVs still break.</text></item><item><author>Shivetya</author><text>A few observations, before I derail&lt;p&gt;I do not want to dismiss the efforts of Audi or Jaguar but I think their initial focus was being good examples for their respective brands with regards to their packaging. Their interior quality of a different generation and caliber than Tesla. The EV part was an important concern but secondary. They can still rack up significant ZEV credits in California letting them off the hook of buying them from others.&lt;p&gt;Tesla needs to refresh the S and X to improve interior fit and finish but also concentrate on making them quieter, an issue I have with my 3. without the drone of a motor every sound stands out and EVs tend to ride on stiffer, noisier, tires.&lt;p&gt;As for difficulty, other than i3 and Tesla cars I do not believe any other EV was a clean sheet design. Even the Leaf appears based on traditional cars. the Bolt is simply a spark when a new motor cradle and battery back pushed under it. The Hyundai&amp;#x2F;Kia models are all adaptions. Not 100% sure about the iPace but Jaguar even contracted out assembly.&lt;p&gt;--&lt;p&gt;The manufacturing difficulty is probably secondary to the seismic shift crossing the auto industry and associated industries. EVs don&amp;#x27;t need the large established dealership base and their included maintenance facilities. Secondary market means little use for parts stores and their suppliers. Gas stations will be right out with most charging done at destination points. Manufacturing of the autos themselves will implode the number of employees and that will lead to union difficulty in some countries; where they sit on boards and can stymie the move to EVs and loss of production jobs.&lt;p&gt;The Kia Niro EV numbers you mention are not EPA which was 258. I mention this because your other numbers were EPA.</text></item><item><author>codeulike</author><text>Compare to the Audi e-Tron, which has a fairly massive 95kWH battery but only scores 204 miles of EPA range. They claim they&amp;#x27;re only using 88% of the battery capacity so that charging is faster and battery longevity is preserved, but thats a really weird engineering decision that belies the fact they have made a terribly inefficient (and perhaps rapidly degrading?) battery pack&amp;#x2F;drivetrain.&lt;p&gt;Meanwhile the base Model S, for $4k more, has 285 miles of EPA range, and charges faster when below 50%, although not as fast as the e-Tron when above 50%.&lt;p&gt;The smaller Kia Niro EV (if you can get one, they aren&amp;#x27;t making many because they can&amp;#x27;t source the batteries) squeezes 258 miles of range from a 65 kWH battery. Much better, but terribly production constrained. It won What Car of the Year in the UK but they can only deliver 900 to the UK for the whole of 2019. Not sure what the global Kia production rate is, but presumably far far less than Tesla which has sustained 4000+ Model 3&amp;#x27;s per week since last October (although not yet delivering to the RHD countries like the UK, alas)&lt;p&gt;Turns out making EVs is harder than everyone thought. We were told the traditional automakers would just wade in and obliterate Tesla, who were just putting &amp;#x27;wheels on batteries&amp;#x27;. That hasn&amp;#x27;t happened.</text></item></parent_chain><comment><author>dsfyu404ed</author><text>I hate to break it to you but very few vehicles are going to the dealer for engine&amp;#x2F;trans related work.  Dealerships mostly only see vehicles that are new enough to be under warranty or recently out of it and major power-train stuff doesn&amp;#x27;t often break in that time period.  It&amp;#x27;s stuff like steering and suspension wear items, the occasional window motor, trunk latches that won&amp;#x27;t pop, HVAC and stuff like that they make most of their money doing.  EVs would probably actually net more money for dealers more money because they wouldn&amp;#x27;t take a loss on fixing random leaks under warranty (they get paid but book times are often unrealistic).</text></comment>
<story><title>Changes to Models S and X allow them to travel longer without larger batteries</title><url>https://www.tesla.com/blog/longest-range-electric-vehicle-now-goes-even-farther</url></story><parent_chain><item><author>quanticle</author><text>They break at much much lower rates, because they have many fewer parts. EVs don&amp;#x27;t have the pistons, valves, belts, fans, compressors, alternators, spark plugs, etc that gasoline engines have. There&amp;#x27;s probably order of magnitude fewer parts to break.&lt;p&gt;Having seen the interior of an automatic gearbox, the surprising thing to me is that conventional automobiles are as reliable as they are.</text></item><item><author>ajuc</author><text>&amp;gt; EVs don&amp;#x27;t need the large established dealership base and their included maintenance facilities&lt;p&gt;I never understood that. Why does power source matter in the context of dealership base and maintenance? EVs still break.</text></item><item><author>Shivetya</author><text>A few observations, before I derail&lt;p&gt;I do not want to dismiss the efforts of Audi or Jaguar but I think their initial focus was being good examples for their respective brands with regards to their packaging. Their interior quality of a different generation and caliber than Tesla. The EV part was an important concern but secondary. They can still rack up significant ZEV credits in California letting them off the hook of buying them from others.&lt;p&gt;Tesla needs to refresh the S and X to improve interior fit and finish but also concentrate on making them quieter, an issue I have with my 3. without the drone of a motor every sound stands out and EVs tend to ride on stiffer, noisier, tires.&lt;p&gt;As for difficulty, other than i3 and Tesla cars I do not believe any other EV was a clean sheet design. Even the Leaf appears based on traditional cars. the Bolt is simply a spark when a new motor cradle and battery back pushed under it. The Hyundai&amp;#x2F;Kia models are all adaptions. Not 100% sure about the iPace but Jaguar even contracted out assembly.&lt;p&gt;--&lt;p&gt;The manufacturing difficulty is probably secondary to the seismic shift crossing the auto industry and associated industries. EVs don&amp;#x27;t need the large established dealership base and their included maintenance facilities. Secondary market means little use for parts stores and their suppliers. Gas stations will be right out with most charging done at destination points. Manufacturing of the autos themselves will implode the number of employees and that will lead to union difficulty in some countries; where they sit on boards and can stymie the move to EVs and loss of production jobs.&lt;p&gt;The Kia Niro EV numbers you mention are not EPA which was 258. I mention this because your other numbers were EPA.</text></item><item><author>codeulike</author><text>Compare to the Audi e-Tron, which has a fairly massive 95kWH battery but only scores 204 miles of EPA range. They claim they&amp;#x27;re only using 88% of the battery capacity so that charging is faster and battery longevity is preserved, but thats a really weird engineering decision that belies the fact they have made a terribly inefficient (and perhaps rapidly degrading?) battery pack&amp;#x2F;drivetrain.&lt;p&gt;Meanwhile the base Model S, for $4k more, has 285 miles of EPA range, and charges faster when below 50%, although not as fast as the e-Tron when above 50%.&lt;p&gt;The smaller Kia Niro EV (if you can get one, they aren&amp;#x27;t making many because they can&amp;#x27;t source the batteries) squeezes 258 miles of range from a 65 kWH battery. Much better, but terribly production constrained. It won What Car of the Year in the UK but they can only deliver 900 to the UK for the whole of 2019. Not sure what the global Kia production rate is, but presumably far far less than Tesla which has sustained 4000+ Model 3&amp;#x27;s per week since last October (although not yet delivering to the RHD countries like the UK, alas)&lt;p&gt;Turns out making EVs is harder than everyone thought. We were told the traditional automakers would just wade in and obliterate Tesla, who were just putting &amp;#x27;wheels on batteries&amp;#x27;. That hasn&amp;#x27;t happened.</text></item></parent_chain><comment><author>windexh8er</author><text>&amp;gt; There&amp;#x27;s probably order of magnitude fewer parts to break.&lt;p&gt;According to Tesla a comparative ICE drivetrain will have around 200 moving parts, while one of their vehicles will have roughly 17.&lt;p&gt;The real upside is longevity. While it is a miraculous feat that machines, such as transmissions, last as long as they do today - they&amp;#x27;re not needed in electric vehicles. I think it&amp;#x27;s fair to assume we all expect 100k miles and more out of a car produced in the last decade. The two main components of a traditional ICE vehicle are the main contributors to longevity of a vehicle: engine and drivetrain.  Those two items are of such high cost to replace many people will not consider the repair as replacement is more feasible.&lt;p&gt;As electric cars stand today longevity is significantly improved immediately. The major failure components will be batteries and electric motors. However the former can be considered a wear item and is, generally easy, to replace. The latter is also much cheaper and more simple to replace compared to the ICE equivalent. That being said the expectations of a BEV today are 300k+ miles with significantly less wear maintenance.&lt;p&gt;Finally as electric vehicles tend to be more modular it may very well be that we finally start to see platforms instead of model year differentials. If I have &amp;#x27;platform 1&amp;#x27; here are motor, battery, electronics, etc upgrade options. We haven&amp;#x27;t seen this that bluntly yet, but I hope we get there. Cars today are built as non-upgradeable partially due to the built in life cycling &amp;#x2F; planned obsolescence the manufacturers have created for improved sales. It would be great if we could truly move cars to a more repair &amp;#x2F; upgrade centric platform. Not only could this spur new forms of labor and business but help waste reduction and overall manufacturing waste and pollution.</text></comment>