<story><title>Russia opposition leader poisoned with Novichok</title><url>https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54002880</url></story><parent_chain><item><author>dang</author><text>This comment breaks the site guidelines: &amp;quot;&lt;i&gt;Please don&amp;#x27;t post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you&amp;#x27;re worried about abuse, email hn@ycombinator.com and we&amp;#x27;ll look at the data.&lt;/i&gt;&amp;quot;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&amp;#x2F;newsguidelines.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&amp;#x2F;newsguidelines.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;p&gt;Sinister insinuation about astroturfing is the internet&amp;#x27;s favorite pastime. The overwhelming majority of this, as far as we can tell from countless hours looking at the data, is pure imagination.&lt;p&gt;Is it possible that the manipulation is so sinister and so clever that it leaves no traces we can see in the data, and yet thousands of internet commenters see what we don&amp;#x27;t? Sure it&amp;#x27;s possible. But following that path means abandoning evidence. That way leads to the wilderness of mirrors. The only sane way to look at this is to require some evidence, some objective peg of some kind (we&amp;#x27;ll take anything!) to hang your suspicions on. The presence of opposing viewpoints, downvotes, and flags on divisive issues is no evidence at all. It just means that the community is divided.&lt;p&gt;As far as I can tell, the psychological phenomenon driving this phenomenon is that people are deeply reluctant to take in how wide the range of legitimately opposing views is. We&amp;#x27;re probably hard-wired to see the world as much smaller than it is. Bring us all, with that hard-wiring, into a community of millions of people on the internet, and the inevitable result is that people see spies, shills, astroturfers, and foreign agents everywhere. No—what you&amp;#x27;re seeing is that there are a &lt;i&gt;lot&lt;/i&gt; of humans with very different backgrounds from yours. And on any issue with an international dimension, multiply that phenomenon by a hundred.&lt;p&gt;I&amp;#x27;ve written about this a zillion times: &lt;a href=&quot;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;hn.algolia.com&amp;#x2F;?sort=byDate&amp;amp;dateRange=all&amp;amp;type=comment&amp;amp;storyText=false&amp;amp;prefix=true&amp;amp;page=0&amp;amp;query=astroturf%20by:dang&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;hn.algolia.com&amp;#x2F;?sort=byDate&amp;amp;dateRange=all&amp;amp;type=comme...&lt;/a&gt;. See also &lt;a href=&quot;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;hn.algolia.com&amp;#x2F;?dateRange=all&amp;amp;page=0&amp;amp;prefix=false&amp;amp;query=by%3Adang%20wilderness%20of%20mirrors&amp;amp;sort=byDate&amp;amp;type=comment&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;hn.algolia.com&amp;#x2F;?dateRange=all&amp;amp;page=0&amp;amp;prefix=false&amp;amp;qu...&lt;/a&gt; and &lt;a href=&quot;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;hn.algolia.com&amp;#x2F;?dateRange=all&amp;amp;page=0&amp;amp;prefix=false&amp;amp;query=by%3Adang%20backgrounds&amp;amp;sort=byDate&amp;amp;type=comment&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;hn.algolia.com&amp;#x2F;?dateRange=all&amp;amp;page=0&amp;amp;prefix=false&amp;amp;qu...&lt;/a&gt; for how often I repeat myself.</text></item><item><author>actionscripted</author><text>If you ever wonder about the extent of Russia&amp;#x27;s online efforts consider that the comments on this HN thread might be part of things.&lt;p&gt;Not saying anything in here is good&amp;#x2F;bad&amp;#x2F;other but you rarely see this level of flagged and down-voted comments in a HN thread.</text></item></parent_chain><comment><author>sam_lowry_</author><text>@dang, I collected 5000 exit points of what seems to be sources of Kremlinbot activity here: &lt;a href=&quot;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;gist.github.com&amp;#x2F;mikhailian&amp;#x2F;5d65694fdaaf0ccbab4c6cf39de47544&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;gist.github.com&amp;#x2F;mikhailian&amp;#x2F;5d65694fdaaf0ccbab4c6cf39...&lt;/a&gt; watch out these are IPv4 and IPv6 formatted lists of subnets as exported from ipset.&lt;p&gt;There are some specifics to my use case, take this with a grain of sault. Hope this helps sorting genuine Putin-lovers from Kremlin bots.</text></comment>
<story><title>Russia opposition leader poisoned with Novichok</title><url>https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54002880</url></story><parent_chain><item><author>dang</author><text>This comment breaks the site guidelines: &amp;quot;&lt;i&gt;Please don&amp;#x27;t post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you&amp;#x27;re worried about abuse, email hn@ycombinator.com and we&amp;#x27;ll look at the data.&lt;/i&gt;&amp;quot;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&amp;#x2F;newsguidelines.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&amp;#x2F;newsguidelines.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;p&gt;Sinister insinuation about astroturfing is the internet&amp;#x27;s favorite pastime. The overwhelming majority of this, as far as we can tell from countless hours looking at the data, is pure imagination.&lt;p&gt;Is it possible that the manipulation is so sinister and so clever that it leaves no traces we can see in the data, and yet thousands of internet commenters see what we don&amp;#x27;t? Sure it&amp;#x27;s possible. But following that path means abandoning evidence. That way leads to the wilderness of mirrors. The only sane way to look at this is to require some evidence, some objective peg of some kind (we&amp;#x27;ll take anything!) to hang your suspicions on. The presence of opposing viewpoints, downvotes, and flags on divisive issues is no evidence at all. It just means that the community is divided.&lt;p&gt;As far as I can tell, the psychological phenomenon driving this phenomenon is that people are deeply reluctant to take in how wide the range of legitimately opposing views is. We&amp;#x27;re probably hard-wired to see the world as much smaller than it is. Bring us all, with that hard-wiring, into a community of millions of people on the internet, and the inevitable result is that people see spies, shills, astroturfers, and foreign agents everywhere. No—what you&amp;#x27;re seeing is that there are a &lt;i&gt;lot&lt;/i&gt; of humans with very different backgrounds from yours. And on any issue with an international dimension, multiply that phenomenon by a hundred.&lt;p&gt;I&amp;#x27;ve written about this a zillion times: &lt;a href=&quot;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;hn.algolia.com&amp;#x2F;?sort=byDate&amp;amp;dateRange=all&amp;amp;type=comment&amp;amp;storyText=false&amp;amp;prefix=true&amp;amp;page=0&amp;amp;query=astroturf%20by:dang&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;hn.algolia.com&amp;#x2F;?sort=byDate&amp;amp;dateRange=all&amp;amp;type=comme...&lt;/a&gt;. See also &lt;a href=&quot;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;hn.algolia.com&amp;#x2F;?dateRange=all&amp;amp;page=0&amp;amp;prefix=false&amp;amp;query=by%3Adang%20wilderness%20of%20mirrors&amp;amp;sort=byDate&amp;amp;type=comment&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;hn.algolia.com&amp;#x2F;?dateRange=all&amp;amp;page=0&amp;amp;prefix=false&amp;amp;qu...&lt;/a&gt; and &lt;a href=&quot;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;hn.algolia.com&amp;#x2F;?dateRange=all&amp;amp;page=0&amp;amp;prefix=false&amp;amp;query=by%3Adang%20backgrounds&amp;amp;sort=byDate&amp;amp;type=comment&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;hn.algolia.com&amp;#x2F;?dateRange=all&amp;amp;page=0&amp;amp;prefix=false&amp;amp;qu...&lt;/a&gt; for how often I repeat myself.</text></item><item><author>actionscripted</author><text>If you ever wonder about the extent of Russia&amp;#x27;s online efforts consider that the comments on this HN thread might be part of things.&lt;p&gt;Not saying anything in here is good&amp;#x2F;bad&amp;#x2F;other but you rarely see this level of flagged and down-voted comments in a HN thread.</text></item></parent_chain><comment><author>BrianOnHN</author><text>&amp;gt; countless hours looking at the data&lt;p&gt;Will you provide that data for independent review?&lt;p&gt;Edit: it&amp;#x27;s not that you shouldn&amp;#x27;t be trusted. The issue is the old “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.” For example, what if a large segment of the user base, that regularly contributed extraordinarily positive engagements, existed solely for the opportunities to frame certain conversations, even in the slightest, or even in preparation for something in the distant future.</text></comment>