<story><title>Google Is Eating Our Mail</title><url>https://www.tablix.org/~avian/blog/archives/2019/04/google_is_eating_our_mail/</url></story><parent_chain><item><author>amenod</author><text>Not sure why you are being downvoted, you have a point. There is no excuse for the way Google is operating now - poor customer support, the only recourse twits and HN posts.&lt;p&gt;I think it also hurts Google themselves. There is a reason they have trouble competing with AWS. Why should developers trust Google that there will be a person on the other side helping them out when things go wrong? And they always do, at worst possible time. Amazon, for all its problems, has &lt;i&gt;excellent&lt;/i&gt; customer service.&lt;p&gt;So your parent&amp;#x27;s attempt to fix this is a PR stunt at best. If they (&amp;#x2F;Google) care about this, they should fix the problems in the process:&lt;p&gt;- define, hardcode &lt;i&gt;and publish&lt;/i&gt; rules that will lead to successfull e-mail delivery (SPF, DKIM, history,...)&lt;p&gt;- establish a gmail technical customer support service&lt;p&gt;And they should stop with preferential treatment of those who shame them publicly. Or do they want all of us to start doing the same?</text></item><item><author>joering2</author><text>Since you profile claims you are from Google, you should know by helping here you really doing disservice to everyone else having same problems. Hacker News is not a “gmail customer support hotline center”. You have billions of dollars to setup a system or heck the whole state of the art department to help people with their gmail problem. So you will help two people on HN bitching at gmail.. what about all those that never heard of HN? Sorry friend you doing this only because at some degree google and gmail obviously does not want to look bad to tech society. &amp;#x2F;rant</text></item><item><author>prlambert</author><text>I&amp;#x27;m genuinely sorry to hear that. Our analysts are looking into the issue described in the article, hopefully we find something we can fix that will resolve this.</text></item><item><author>mcsb4</author><text>&amp;gt; It&amp;#x27;s simply not true we have no incentive to fix this&lt;p&gt;I just happen to have set up an email server and encountered the same problems with Google as described in the article. I own the IP since quite some time, it is not on any black list, reverse DNS is set up etc. but Google rejects email as spam.&lt;p&gt;And this even happens when the gmail account has added the sender in his address book and has send the first email to which I replied - thus there is a message id that should already be known on Gmail&amp;#x27;s side.&lt;p&gt;Use your AI to put email into the spam folder.  Refusing it outright is a case for the European Commission which hopefully will slap you another few billions of fine onto the wrist until you remember to play nicely with the other kids.&lt;p&gt;There is no excuse to refuse SPF, DKIM, reverse DNS, proper MX, no blacklist, sender in recipient address book and reply-to msgId email.</text></item><item><author>prlambert</author><text>I&amp;#x27;m one of the PMs for Gmail and hang around HN quite a bit. This is my personal take, not an official reply.&lt;p&gt;It&amp;#x27;s simply not true we have no incentive to fix this. Here are a few:&lt;p&gt;Firstly, Gmail&amp;#x27;s success is entirely predicated on the health of the global email ecosystem. Gmail does not, inherently, have any network effects (unlike FB, messengers, any other comms tool of Gmail&amp;#x27;s scale). Email itself, of course has a huge network effect, and &lt;i&gt;that&lt;/i&gt; is because you can email anyone in the world, regardless of what email system they use. It&amp;#x27;s because email is open. If we lose an open, healthy ecosystem with many providers, we&amp;#x27;ll destroy the base we stand on.&lt;p&gt;Secondly, we care deeply about having positive relationships with developers and all our users. I can tell you it definitely makes me sad to see articles like this. There are going to be false positives, we will make mistakes, but we certainly care a lot about fixing issues like this when we hear about them.&lt;p&gt;I agree Postmaster tools has been underinvested in and we could do much better there.</text></item><item><author>reaperducer</author><text>Google has no incentive to fix these kinds of problems.&lt;p&gt;It&amp;#x27;s big enough that when someone complains that a message sent wasn&amp;#x27;t received, the intended recipient will say, &amp;quot;I never have problems with my Gmail account. It must be you.&amp;quot;  And the sender has to switch to Gmail to reliably communicate with the outside world.&lt;p&gt;I wish this was just paranoia, but we&amp;#x27;ve seen multiple discussions on HN about Google programs and policies that alter the internet in ways that only benefit Big G. It&amp;#x27;s like we&amp;#x27;re heading back to the days when people didn&amp;#x27;t know the difference between AOL and &amp;quot;the internet.&amp;quot;</text></item></parent_chain><comment><author>WrtCdEvrydy</author><text>&amp;gt;  they should stop with preferential treatment of those who shame them publicly&lt;p&gt;That&amp;#x27;s the only way companies care in the 21st century, 3 weeks on an email thread, one tweet and suddenly everyone cares.</text></comment>
<story><title>Google Is Eating Our Mail</title><url>https://www.tablix.org/~avian/blog/archives/2019/04/google_is_eating_our_mail/</url></story><parent_chain><item><author>amenod</author><text>Not sure why you are being downvoted, you have a point. There is no excuse for the way Google is operating now - poor customer support, the only recourse twits and HN posts.&lt;p&gt;I think it also hurts Google themselves. There is a reason they have trouble competing with AWS. Why should developers trust Google that there will be a person on the other side helping them out when things go wrong? And they always do, at worst possible time. Amazon, for all its problems, has &lt;i&gt;excellent&lt;/i&gt; customer service.&lt;p&gt;So your parent&amp;#x27;s attempt to fix this is a PR stunt at best. If they (&amp;#x2F;Google) care about this, they should fix the problems in the process:&lt;p&gt;- define, hardcode &lt;i&gt;and publish&lt;/i&gt; rules that will lead to successfull e-mail delivery (SPF, DKIM, history,...)&lt;p&gt;- establish a gmail technical customer support service&lt;p&gt;And they should stop with preferential treatment of those who shame them publicly. Or do they want all of us to start doing the same?</text></item><item><author>joering2</author><text>Since you profile claims you are from Google, you should know by helping here you really doing disservice to everyone else having same problems. Hacker News is not a “gmail customer support hotline center”. You have billions of dollars to setup a system or heck the whole state of the art department to help people with their gmail problem. So you will help two people on HN bitching at gmail.. what about all those that never heard of HN? Sorry friend you doing this only because at some degree google and gmail obviously does not want to look bad to tech society. &amp;#x2F;rant</text></item><item><author>prlambert</author><text>I&amp;#x27;m genuinely sorry to hear that. Our analysts are looking into the issue described in the article, hopefully we find something we can fix that will resolve this.</text></item><item><author>mcsb4</author><text>&amp;gt; It&amp;#x27;s simply not true we have no incentive to fix this&lt;p&gt;I just happen to have set up an email server and encountered the same problems with Google as described in the article. I own the IP since quite some time, it is not on any black list, reverse DNS is set up etc. but Google rejects email as spam.&lt;p&gt;And this even happens when the gmail account has added the sender in his address book and has send the first email to which I replied - thus there is a message id that should already be known on Gmail&amp;#x27;s side.&lt;p&gt;Use your AI to put email into the spam folder.  Refusing it outright is a case for the European Commission which hopefully will slap you another few billions of fine onto the wrist until you remember to play nicely with the other kids.&lt;p&gt;There is no excuse to refuse SPF, DKIM, reverse DNS, proper MX, no blacklist, sender in recipient address book and reply-to msgId email.</text></item><item><author>prlambert</author><text>I&amp;#x27;m one of the PMs for Gmail and hang around HN quite a bit. This is my personal take, not an official reply.&lt;p&gt;It&amp;#x27;s simply not true we have no incentive to fix this. Here are a few:&lt;p&gt;Firstly, Gmail&amp;#x27;s success is entirely predicated on the health of the global email ecosystem. Gmail does not, inherently, have any network effects (unlike FB, messengers, any other comms tool of Gmail&amp;#x27;s scale). Email itself, of course has a huge network effect, and &lt;i&gt;that&lt;/i&gt; is because you can email anyone in the world, regardless of what email system they use. It&amp;#x27;s because email is open. If we lose an open, healthy ecosystem with many providers, we&amp;#x27;ll destroy the base we stand on.&lt;p&gt;Secondly, we care deeply about having positive relationships with developers and all our users. I can tell you it definitely makes me sad to see articles like this. There are going to be false positives, we will make mistakes, but we certainly care a lot about fixing issues like this when we hear about them.&lt;p&gt;I agree Postmaster tools has been underinvested in and we could do much better there.</text></item><item><author>reaperducer</author><text>Google has no incentive to fix these kinds of problems.&lt;p&gt;It&amp;#x27;s big enough that when someone complains that a message sent wasn&amp;#x27;t received, the intended recipient will say, &amp;quot;I never have problems with my Gmail account. It must be you.&amp;quot;  And the sender has to switch to Gmail to reliably communicate with the outside world.&lt;p&gt;I wish this was just paranoia, but we&amp;#x27;ve seen multiple discussions on HN about Google programs and policies that alter the internet in ways that only benefit Big G. It&amp;#x27;s like we&amp;#x27;re heading back to the days when people didn&amp;#x27;t know the difference between AOL and &amp;quot;the internet.&amp;quot;</text></item></parent_chain><comment><author>usefulcat</author><text>&amp;gt; Or do they want all of us to start doing the same?&lt;p&gt;An increase in public shamings probably means that public shamings become less news- or interest-worthy. So an increase in shamings might not have as much effect as you might expect.</text></comment>