<story><title>I patched my Slack client to keep “oops” messages others delete</title><url>https://github.com/SharonBrizinov/slack-anti-delete</url></story><parent_chain><item><author>koolba</author><text>There isn’t a jurisdiction on the planet that would reject a contract clause that the person hired to do a job cannot covertly outsource the work by providing their credentials to a third party. That’d likely be breaking multiple clauses of any sane contracting agreement.</text></item><item><author>arcticbull</author><text>You can put anything you want in a contract, the question is, is it enforceable?</text></item><item><author>koolba</author><text>&amp;gt; independent contractors are free to sub out work. this is the law.&lt;p&gt;I’ve never seen a contracting agreement that didn’t specifically prohibit subcontracting without the explicit written consent of the client. It’s not that it wouldn’t be federally legal, it’s that it would violate the specific contract with the client.</text></item><item><author>a-dub</author><text>&amp;quot;The general rule is that an individual is an independent contractor if the payer has the right to control or direct only the result of the work and not what will be done and how it will be done.&amp;quot;&lt;p&gt;independent contractors are free to sub out work. this is the law. they also probably should not be on your slack unless you&amp;#x27;re considering the whole thing a consulting arrangement.&lt;p&gt;i understand where you&amp;#x27;re coming from, especially in trying to make use of upwork in some actually useful way for your business. but you should also be aware of the law.&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.irs.gov&amp;#x2F;businesses&amp;#x2F;small-businesses-self-employed&amp;#x2F;independent-contractor-defined&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.irs.gov&amp;#x2F;businesses&amp;#x2F;small-businesses-self-employe...&lt;/a&gt;</text></item><item><author>jackconsidine</author><text>I hired a contractor on Upwork once and he worked alongside us in our Slack workspace. He did great work for a few weeks and then I suspected him of outsourcing his persona to someone else. The smoking gun was that the presumed guy behind the scenes sent a PayPal invoice via his Slack account and immediately deleted it. I have regretted not having fast enough fingers since then and wish I had this.&lt;p&gt;I did end up catching him- the app he was working on enabled geolocation and he went from Chatanooga, Tennessee to Romania in an hour. I&amp;#x27;m surprised he accepted geolocation! I also later confirmed IP addresses via Firebase deployments in the same region.&lt;p&gt;EDIT: since a lot of people are commenting saying that this is fine by IRS laws of subcontracting etc I should clarify:&lt;p&gt;1. This wasn&amp;#x27;t a legal matter, but a business matter. I needed to federate access to sensitive infrastructure for this project, and this person failed to disclose (or denied) any additional involvement.&lt;p&gt;2. The work was not up to spec which is why there was a problem.&lt;p&gt;3. The reason for using a 1099 as opposed to a w2 in this case had nothing to do with trying to flout benefit obligations. I don&amp;#x27;t think saying you need to know who&amp;#x27;s touching your codebase and hiring someone on a contract basis is trying to have your cake and eat it too. This type of contract is much more expensive for us than a full-time employee.</text></item></parent_chain><comment><author>phphphphp</author><text>The important caveat that is that in many jurisdictions, there’s a significant difference in the tax treatment of contractors vs. employees, and so by producing such a contract (that forbids subcontracting) you are plausibly creating an employment arrangement and are on the hook for tax consequences.&lt;p&gt;Here in the UK, for example, if you wrote such a contract, it would be enforceable… but you would be considered (by the tax authority) to be trying to evade employment taxes, and hit with something starting in the range of a low 5-figure financial consequence (assuming the contract was a few months at current average rate for tech workers).&lt;p&gt;All of my contracts explicitly allow subcontracting in order to comply with tax law.</text></comment>
<story><title>I patched my Slack client to keep “oops” messages others delete</title><url>https://github.com/SharonBrizinov/slack-anti-delete</url></story><parent_chain><item><author>koolba</author><text>There isn’t a jurisdiction on the planet that would reject a contract clause that the person hired to do a job cannot covertly outsource the work by providing their credentials to a third party. That’d likely be breaking multiple clauses of any sane contracting agreement.</text></item><item><author>arcticbull</author><text>You can put anything you want in a contract, the question is, is it enforceable?</text></item><item><author>koolba</author><text>&amp;gt; independent contractors are free to sub out work. this is the law.&lt;p&gt;I’ve never seen a contracting agreement that didn’t specifically prohibit subcontracting without the explicit written consent of the client. It’s not that it wouldn’t be federally legal, it’s that it would violate the specific contract with the client.</text></item><item><author>a-dub</author><text>&amp;quot;The general rule is that an individual is an independent contractor if the payer has the right to control or direct only the result of the work and not what will be done and how it will be done.&amp;quot;&lt;p&gt;independent contractors are free to sub out work. this is the law. they also probably should not be on your slack unless you&amp;#x27;re considering the whole thing a consulting arrangement.&lt;p&gt;i understand where you&amp;#x27;re coming from, especially in trying to make use of upwork in some actually useful way for your business. but you should also be aware of the law.&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.irs.gov&amp;#x2F;businesses&amp;#x2F;small-businesses-self-employed&amp;#x2F;independent-contractor-defined&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.irs.gov&amp;#x2F;businesses&amp;#x2F;small-businesses-self-employe...&lt;/a&gt;</text></item><item><author>jackconsidine</author><text>I hired a contractor on Upwork once and he worked alongside us in our Slack workspace. He did great work for a few weeks and then I suspected him of outsourcing his persona to someone else. The smoking gun was that the presumed guy behind the scenes sent a PayPal invoice via his Slack account and immediately deleted it. I have regretted not having fast enough fingers since then and wish I had this.&lt;p&gt;I did end up catching him- the app he was working on enabled geolocation and he went from Chatanooga, Tennessee to Romania in an hour. I&amp;#x27;m surprised he accepted geolocation! I also later confirmed IP addresses via Firebase deployments in the same region.&lt;p&gt;EDIT: since a lot of people are commenting saying that this is fine by IRS laws of subcontracting etc I should clarify:&lt;p&gt;1. This wasn&amp;#x27;t a legal matter, but a business matter. I needed to federate access to sensitive infrastructure for this project, and this person failed to disclose (or denied) any additional involvement.&lt;p&gt;2. The work was not up to spec which is why there was a problem.&lt;p&gt;3. The reason for using a 1099 as opposed to a w2 in this case had nothing to do with trying to flout benefit obligations. I don&amp;#x27;t think saying you need to know who&amp;#x27;s touching your codebase and hiring someone on a contract basis is trying to have your cake and eat it too. This type of contract is much more expensive for us than a full-time employee.</text></item></parent_chain><comment><author>a-dub</author><text>here&amp;#x27;s upwork&amp;#x27;s suggested contract:&lt;p&gt;3. RESPONSIBILITY FOR EMPLOYEES AND SUBCONTRACTORS, INCLUDING AGENCY MEMBERS
If a User subcontracts with or employs third parties to perform Freelancer Services on behalf of the User for any Engagement, the User represents and warrants that it does so as a legally recognized entity or person and in compliance with all applicable laws and regulations. Further, at all times a User that agreed to perform services under a Services Contract remains responsible for the quality of the services and represents and warrants that User has entered into agreements with any such employees and subcontractors on confidentiality and intellectual property at least as strong as those in these Optional Service Terms.&lt;p&gt;it&amp;#x27;s a business to business agreement. a contractor is free to sub.&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.upwork.com&amp;#x2F;legal#optional-service-contract-terms&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.upwork.com&amp;#x2F;legal#optional-service-contract-terms&lt;/a&gt;</text></comment>