<story><title>Ftx.com Has Probably Collapsed</title><url>https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/tdLRvYHpfYjimwhyL/ftx-com-has-probably-collapsed</url></story><parent_chain><item><author>woodruffw</author><text>My (outsider&amp;#x27;s) understanding is that the &amp;quot;longtermist&amp;quot; sub-school of EA has grown over the years, and has developed increasingly convoluted and speculative rationales for behavior that would otherwise be considered unethical.&lt;p&gt;The example I&amp;#x27;m most familiar with is calculating utils in terms of the expected total human population of the galaxy, were we to achieve interstellar travel: it&amp;#x27;s not &lt;i&gt;inconceivable&lt;/i&gt; that orders of magnitude more humans would be alive in the distant future than are alive now, which makes their combined future interest more important than the interests of any (or even all) living human beings. Consequently, we should divert money &lt;i&gt;away&lt;/i&gt; from the welfare of people living today and &lt;i&gt;towards&lt;/i&gt; efforts that maximize the likelihood of a galaxy filled with colonized planets.&lt;p&gt;If that sounds ridiculous, it&amp;#x27;s because it is.</text></item><item><author>JonahSussman</author><text>I&amp;#x27;m a bit behind on the times, but I&amp;#x27;m failing to see how the philosophy of effective altruism and cryptocurrency are related. Do you know how the two got intertwined?</text></item><item><author>woodruffw</author><text>This is maybe tangential of me to say, but since this post is coming from an EA forum: I think the cozy relationship between EA and FTX has done &lt;i&gt;immense&lt;/i&gt; damage to the public image and standing of the EA movement.&lt;p&gt;I&amp;#x27;ve never been an EA person (much less a utilitarian) but I can appreciate the meat and potatoes of applied ethics, especially when those ethics are applied &lt;i&gt;consistently&lt;/i&gt;. The infusion of cryptocurrency funny money into that world has completely perverted both aspects: much of EA now seems focused on speculative concerns (AGI) rather than real ones (world hunger or civic integrity), and all sorts of perverse rationales are offered for wealth extraction in service of future utils rather than &lt;i&gt;just doing morally good things.&lt;/i&gt;</text></item></parent_chain><comment><author>javajosh</author><text>Galactic utility is ridiculous. But so is the other extreme, to act only on short-term utility. The asymmetry is that most humans don&amp;#x27;t need any encouragement to think short-term, but they do need some impetus to think long-term. But it takes wisdom to balance the two concerns. And yes it is a huge downside to any strategy that delays gratification that it can be &amp;quot;hacked&amp;quot; for evil, which is a problem more general than EA or &amp;quot;longetermism&amp;quot;.</text></comment>
<story><title>Ftx.com Has Probably Collapsed</title><url>https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/tdLRvYHpfYjimwhyL/ftx-com-has-probably-collapsed</url></story><parent_chain><item><author>woodruffw</author><text>My (outsider&amp;#x27;s) understanding is that the &amp;quot;longtermist&amp;quot; sub-school of EA has grown over the years, and has developed increasingly convoluted and speculative rationales for behavior that would otherwise be considered unethical.&lt;p&gt;The example I&amp;#x27;m most familiar with is calculating utils in terms of the expected total human population of the galaxy, were we to achieve interstellar travel: it&amp;#x27;s not &lt;i&gt;inconceivable&lt;/i&gt; that orders of magnitude more humans would be alive in the distant future than are alive now, which makes their combined future interest more important than the interests of any (or even all) living human beings. Consequently, we should divert money &lt;i&gt;away&lt;/i&gt; from the welfare of people living today and &lt;i&gt;towards&lt;/i&gt; efforts that maximize the likelihood of a galaxy filled with colonized planets.&lt;p&gt;If that sounds ridiculous, it&amp;#x27;s because it is.</text></item><item><author>JonahSussman</author><text>I&amp;#x27;m a bit behind on the times, but I&amp;#x27;m failing to see how the philosophy of effective altruism and cryptocurrency are related. Do you know how the two got intertwined?</text></item><item><author>woodruffw</author><text>This is maybe tangential of me to say, but since this post is coming from an EA forum: I think the cozy relationship between EA and FTX has done &lt;i&gt;immense&lt;/i&gt; damage to the public image and standing of the EA movement.&lt;p&gt;I&amp;#x27;ve never been an EA person (much less a utilitarian) but I can appreciate the meat and potatoes of applied ethics, especially when those ethics are applied &lt;i&gt;consistently&lt;/i&gt;. The infusion of cryptocurrency funny money into that world has completely perverted both aspects: much of EA now seems focused on speculative concerns (AGI) rather than real ones (world hunger or civic integrity), and all sorts of perverse rationales are offered for wealth extraction in service of future utils rather than &lt;i&gt;just doing morally good things.&lt;/i&gt;</text></item></parent_chain><comment><author>bagels</author><text>I know you&amp;#x27;re not defending this take, but I&amp;#x27;m having trouble seeing how scam coins benefit future people.</text></comment>