<story><title>Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus</title><url>https://telex.hu/direkt36/2021/07/19/pegasus-nso-hungary-viktor-orban-cyberweapon</url></story><parent_chain><item><author>roenxi</author><text>&amp;gt; If there is a part of the population that is radicalized and hate rhetoric is used that will destabilize any society.&lt;p&gt;I&amp;#x27;m going to point at this as an example of a very traditional, very political example unproductive thinking. One of the lessons people refuse to see in politics is that the people who vote for things they don&amp;#x27;t like might, potentially, be upset about something. There is a lack of reflection on how rational people might have ended up here.&lt;p&gt;I know nothing about Hungary. But I am quite confident that a happy, well organised society labouring under the grip of sound economic policies tends not to radicalise very easily. People get radicalised when it becomes obvious that politics as usual is not going to work out well for them. There are cases where the cause is lost and there is an intransigent radical group. Usually there is a long lead up to that of a group who is systemically not having their needs met.&lt;p&gt;It is totally correct that hate leads to win-lose deals. That seems like a very reasonable option to people if the alternative loving approach is a win-lose deal but with the winners and losers reversed.</text></item><item><author>Hokusai</author><text>&amp;gt; EU is completely helpless against rouge states&lt;p&gt;There is a point where politics depend on good intent. It does not matter if it is the EU, USA or China. If there is a part of the population that is radicalized and hate rhetoric is used that will destabilize any society.&lt;p&gt;The main defense against this situation is that it does not work to improve citizens lives. It only benefits a small part of society and it will make the rest suffer. Hate calls for win-lose deals and an unproductive zero sum mentality. Hungarian business will suffer, and Hungarian workers will suffer. That is not sustainable long term.&lt;p&gt;EU can be improved, but if millions of citizens support a far-right government there is little to be done. Orbán is a problem, but that people follows him is another one. It will only make Hungary poorer and the EU poorer and more dangerous.</text></item><item><author>poisonborz</author><text>If there is one single lasting international effect of Orbán and his party, it&amp;#x27;s how he demonstrated how EU is completely helpless against rouge states (as well). The delicate political balance of its parliamental politics make it impossible to react to any complex, even if lethal threats. The EU funds and fuels a Belorussian-style regime in its own heartland for a decade now, and all they can do are angry notices and legal disputes that take years without a noteworthy resolution. Due to how alliances within the union work - Hungary has the full support of Poland and the V4 - any major blowback would result in shattering itself.</text></item></parent_chain><comment><author>lloydjones</author><text>I&amp;#x27;m not sure I agree. In the UK, the lower middle class are (to generalise) materially well-off; they own their own homes, they have a couple of cars, they have large televisions, one partner does not have to work, etc.&lt;p&gt;And through pure boredom&amp;#x2F;decadence, they were radicalised through years of negative messaging from the populist press into &amp;#x27;caring&amp;#x27; about things like Brexit, immigration, welfare claimants, etc.&lt;p&gt;These are people that have most of their needs met and are comfortable, yet their emotional buttons were pushed over the course of years into making them foam at the mouth about things they largely don&amp;#x27;t fully grasp and that definitely don&amp;#x27;t have an impact on their lives.</text></comment>
<story><title>Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus</title><url>https://telex.hu/direkt36/2021/07/19/pegasus-nso-hungary-viktor-orban-cyberweapon</url></story><parent_chain><item><author>roenxi</author><text>&amp;gt; If there is a part of the population that is radicalized and hate rhetoric is used that will destabilize any society.&lt;p&gt;I&amp;#x27;m going to point at this as an example of a very traditional, very political example unproductive thinking. One of the lessons people refuse to see in politics is that the people who vote for things they don&amp;#x27;t like might, potentially, be upset about something. There is a lack of reflection on how rational people might have ended up here.&lt;p&gt;I know nothing about Hungary. But I am quite confident that a happy, well organised society labouring under the grip of sound economic policies tends not to radicalise very easily. People get radicalised when it becomes obvious that politics as usual is not going to work out well for them. There are cases where the cause is lost and there is an intransigent radical group. Usually there is a long lead up to that of a group who is systemically not having their needs met.&lt;p&gt;It is totally correct that hate leads to win-lose deals. That seems like a very reasonable option to people if the alternative loving approach is a win-lose deal but with the winners and losers reversed.</text></item><item><author>Hokusai</author><text>&amp;gt; EU is completely helpless against rouge states&lt;p&gt;There is a point where politics depend on good intent. It does not matter if it is the EU, USA or China. If there is a part of the population that is radicalized and hate rhetoric is used that will destabilize any society.&lt;p&gt;The main defense against this situation is that it does not work to improve citizens lives. It only benefits a small part of society and it will make the rest suffer. Hate calls for win-lose deals and an unproductive zero sum mentality. Hungarian business will suffer, and Hungarian workers will suffer. That is not sustainable long term.&lt;p&gt;EU can be improved, but if millions of citizens support a far-right government there is little to be done. Orbán is a problem, but that people follows him is another one. It will only make Hungary poorer and the EU poorer and more dangerous.</text></item><item><author>poisonborz</author><text>If there is one single lasting international effect of Orbán and his party, it&amp;#x27;s how he demonstrated how EU is completely helpless against rouge states (as well). The delicate political balance of its parliamental politics make it impossible to react to any complex, even if lethal threats. The EU funds and fuels a Belorussian-style regime in its own heartland for a decade now, and all they can do are angry notices and legal disputes that take years without a noteworthy resolution. Due to how alliances within the union work - Hungary has the full support of Poland and the V4 - any major blowback would result in shattering itself.</text></item></parent_chain><comment><author>pjc50</author><text>&amp;gt; the people who vote for things they don&amp;#x27;t like might, potentially, be upset about something&lt;p&gt;Yes, but is the thing they&amp;#x27;re upset about and the thing they&amp;#x27;re directing their anger towards actually linked?&lt;p&gt;It&amp;#x27;s often hugely successful in politics to say &amp;quot;all your problems are the fault of this external bad actor&amp;quot; rather than &amp;quot;&lt;i&gt;we&lt;/i&gt; have a problem and it&amp;#x27;s going to take a lot of hard work to fix it&amp;quot;. It&amp;#x27;s very easy to blame external Jewish financiers (George Soros always gets a namecheck) and gay people for all your problems. The last time people did that en masse in Eastern Europe it ended up with extermination camps and millions dead.&lt;p&gt;Arguably Hungary&amp;#x27;s problems &lt;i&gt;are&lt;/i&gt; due to the international finance industry, but there&amp;#x27;s nothing especially Jewish about it, just good old mis-selling. See e.g. &lt;a href=&quot;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.ft.com&amp;#x2F;content&amp;#x2F;6c27cfbc-f50b-11e2-94e9-00144feabdc0&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.ft.com&amp;#x2F;content&amp;#x2F;6c27cfbc-f50b-11e2-94e9-00144feab...&lt;/a&gt; - Orban took on the banks, which has to have been a big help to his popularity.&lt;p&gt;The EU is not blameless in this: &lt;a href=&quot;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.escp.eu&amp;#x2F;news&amp;#x2F;eu-convergence-narrative-played-key-role-eastern-european-mortgage-crisis&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.escp.eu&amp;#x2F;news&amp;#x2F;eu-convergence-narrative-played-key...&lt;/a&gt;</text></comment>