<story><title>More Than 70 West Point Cadets Accused of Cheating in Academic Scandal</title><url>https://www.npr.org/2020/12/21/949025580/more-than-70-west-point-cadets-accused-of-cheating-in-academic-scandal</url></story><parent_chain><item><author>sneak</author><text>&amp;gt; &lt;i&gt;LYING about it, hiding it, or attempting to cover it up or show ANY KIND of dishonesty is what prevents you from continuing in the process.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;p&gt;This is false. Polygraph tests do not detect lies.&lt;p&gt;The polygraph is pseudoscientific snake oil, used to perpetuate fear.&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;antipolygraph.org&amp;#x2F;&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;antipolygraph.org&amp;#x2F;&lt;/a&gt;</text></item><item><author>count</author><text>Downloading porn on lime wire doesn&amp;#x27;t stop you from advancing in the process with a polygraph.&lt;p&gt;Doing hard drugs doesn&amp;#x27;t stop you in advancing with the selection process, or even prevent you from getting a clearance.&lt;p&gt;&lt;i&gt;LYING&lt;/i&gt; about it, &lt;i&gt;hiding&lt;/i&gt; it, or attempting to cover it up or show ANY KIND of dishonesty is what prevents you from continuing in the process.&lt;p&gt;Nobody has ever been denied a clearance because they downloaded porn on limewire, or pirated movies or videos, assuming they admit to such, and do not indicate a desire or intent to continue in the behavior.</text></item><item><author>leroy_masochist</author><text>&amp;gt; Have you ever violated a software license, or streamed something with someone else&amp;#x27;s account? Those should technically be honor violations&lt;p&gt;They make a HUGE deal about this in lifestyle polygraphs. It&amp;#x27;s completely asinine and drives significant attrition of strong candidates for selective jobs in the IC&amp;#x2F;SOF world.&lt;p&gt;We need a complete overhaul of the puritanical mindset with which the powers-that-be judge prior behavior. Downloading porn from Limewire when you were a 19-year-old college sophomore should not be stopping people from advancing in selective processes; nor should a history of having used hard drugs, hallucinogens, or marijuana &amp;gt;10x (on the latter I gather they&amp;#x27;re evolving given current state laws).</text></item><item><author>chrisBob</author><text>I am an &amp;#x27;04 grad, and there has been some system of second chances for a while. I have a friend that started a year ahead of me who was a &amp;quot;turn back&amp;quot; for an honor violation. The violation was in her first year and they decided she was still adapting to the honor code when it happened. The result was 5 years at West Point where she had an in between rank of Cadet PFC for her second year.&lt;p&gt;The idea of zero tolerance is a little crazy. Have you ever violated a software license, or streamed something with someone else&amp;#x27;s account? Those should technically be honor violations, but they aren&amp;#x27;t prosecuting those. It isn&amp;#x27;t 100% clear to me where to draw the line.</text></item><item><author>wildermuthn</author><text>I went to West Point two decades ago, before the apparent change to the honor code in 2015 that allowed for second chances.&lt;p&gt;It does take a little time to adjust to the honor code, but among all the things learned at WP, this one stuck with me the most. I (and many of my friends) came to literally hate lying&amp;#x2F;cheating, and to disdain those who do. But there’s another route that is taken too — the opposite, where some cadets become very good at lying&amp;#x2F;cheating. What starts out as a trivial lie must be covered up with larger more intricate lies, moving from something accidental or thoughtless to something intentional and deliberate. The cover-up and defense, often bringing friends into the mix, turns toxic really quickly. This is what happens when a perceived innocuous lie is seen a a life-ruiner.&lt;p&gt;My father also went to a service academy, and often after catching me in a lie would say, “I’m mad at you about lying, but I’m ever madder you  were dumb enough to get caught!” My dad is one of the most moral men I’ve ever met, and I only just now connected the dots here with regard to a zero-toleration honor code.&lt;p&gt;I suspect the 2015 change was a practical rather than principled change: to make it easier to catch and correct violations instead of letting them fester and spread.&lt;p&gt;In some ways the service academies are a giant experiment in human character. Humans naturally lie, cheat, and steal in order to survive and protect their own tribe (i.e., go to war). Can you change that? Not really. But you &lt;i&gt;can&lt;/i&gt; create a culture like that. The change, as ironic as it may seem, may do a better job of creating that kind of culture by attacking the tendency to dig deeper holes.</text></item></parent_chain><comment><author>count</author><text>Without judging the validity of the poly itself (I concur, it&amp;#x27;s garbage), it&amp;#x27;s also not the sole basis of any decision, and the actual people doing the investigation build a case to show that you have lied about something, because you an appeal their decisions to a judge.  It&amp;#x27;s not just &amp;#x27;meh, the line wiggled so no clearance for you&amp;#x27;.</text></comment>
<story><title>More Than 70 West Point Cadets Accused of Cheating in Academic Scandal</title><url>https://www.npr.org/2020/12/21/949025580/more-than-70-west-point-cadets-accused-of-cheating-in-academic-scandal</url></story><parent_chain><item><author>sneak</author><text>&amp;gt; &lt;i&gt;LYING about it, hiding it, or attempting to cover it up or show ANY KIND of dishonesty is what prevents you from continuing in the process.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;p&gt;This is false. Polygraph tests do not detect lies.&lt;p&gt;The polygraph is pseudoscientific snake oil, used to perpetuate fear.&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;antipolygraph.org&amp;#x2F;&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;antipolygraph.org&amp;#x2F;&lt;/a&gt;</text></item><item><author>count</author><text>Downloading porn on lime wire doesn&amp;#x27;t stop you from advancing in the process with a polygraph.&lt;p&gt;Doing hard drugs doesn&amp;#x27;t stop you in advancing with the selection process, or even prevent you from getting a clearance.&lt;p&gt;&lt;i&gt;LYING&lt;/i&gt; about it, &lt;i&gt;hiding&lt;/i&gt; it, or attempting to cover it up or show ANY KIND of dishonesty is what prevents you from continuing in the process.&lt;p&gt;Nobody has ever been denied a clearance because they downloaded porn on limewire, or pirated movies or videos, assuming they admit to such, and do not indicate a desire or intent to continue in the behavior.</text></item><item><author>leroy_masochist</author><text>&amp;gt; Have you ever violated a software license, or streamed something with someone else&amp;#x27;s account? Those should technically be honor violations&lt;p&gt;They make a HUGE deal about this in lifestyle polygraphs. It&amp;#x27;s completely asinine and drives significant attrition of strong candidates for selective jobs in the IC&amp;#x2F;SOF world.&lt;p&gt;We need a complete overhaul of the puritanical mindset with which the powers-that-be judge prior behavior. Downloading porn from Limewire when you were a 19-year-old college sophomore should not be stopping people from advancing in selective processes; nor should a history of having used hard drugs, hallucinogens, or marijuana &amp;gt;10x (on the latter I gather they&amp;#x27;re evolving given current state laws).</text></item><item><author>chrisBob</author><text>I am an &amp;#x27;04 grad, and there has been some system of second chances for a while. I have a friend that started a year ahead of me who was a &amp;quot;turn back&amp;quot; for an honor violation. The violation was in her first year and they decided she was still adapting to the honor code when it happened. The result was 5 years at West Point where she had an in between rank of Cadet PFC for her second year.&lt;p&gt;The idea of zero tolerance is a little crazy. Have you ever violated a software license, or streamed something with someone else&amp;#x27;s account? Those should technically be honor violations, but they aren&amp;#x27;t prosecuting those. It isn&amp;#x27;t 100% clear to me where to draw the line.</text></item><item><author>wildermuthn</author><text>I went to West Point two decades ago, before the apparent change to the honor code in 2015 that allowed for second chances.&lt;p&gt;It does take a little time to adjust to the honor code, but among all the things learned at WP, this one stuck with me the most. I (and many of my friends) came to literally hate lying&amp;#x2F;cheating, and to disdain those who do. But there’s another route that is taken too — the opposite, where some cadets become very good at lying&amp;#x2F;cheating. What starts out as a trivial lie must be covered up with larger more intricate lies, moving from something accidental or thoughtless to something intentional and deliberate. The cover-up and defense, often bringing friends into the mix, turns toxic really quickly. This is what happens when a perceived innocuous lie is seen a a life-ruiner.&lt;p&gt;My father also went to a service academy, and often after catching me in a lie would say, “I’m mad at you about lying, but I’m ever madder you  were dumb enough to get caught!” My dad is one of the most moral men I’ve ever met, and I only just now connected the dots here with regard to a zero-toleration honor code.&lt;p&gt;I suspect the 2015 change was a practical rather than principled change: to make it easier to catch and correct violations instead of letting them fester and spread.&lt;p&gt;In some ways the service academies are a giant experiment in human character. Humans naturally lie, cheat, and steal in order to survive and protect their own tribe (i.e., go to war). Can you change that? Not really. But you &lt;i&gt;can&lt;/i&gt; create a culture like that. The change, as ironic as it may seem, may do a better job of creating that kind of culture by attacking the tendency to dig deeper holes.</text></item></parent_chain><comment><author>Barracoon</author><text>This is a bit of a non sequitor. Parent didn&amp;#x27;t mention polygraphs, and the lying is which prevents you from moving forward. At the same time, I concur that polygraphs are not fully accurate measures of lying.</text></comment>