<story><title>Releases for XFCE</title><url>https://simon.shimmerproject.org/2017/02/13/releases-releases-releases/</url></story><parent_chain><item><author>near</author><text>Sigh, are they seriously bringing GTK3&amp;#x27;s client-side decorations and lack of title bars to Xfce??!&lt;p&gt;Applications should have title bars. This is how it&amp;#x27;s been done everywhere since pretty much the first Xerox GUI. Monitors are bigger than ever today. I promise, people can spare 10 pixels of vertical space so that they can see the name of the application being run (and the name of documents open in said application), and have a very easy area to click on to move the window around with. GTK3 CSDs also break the user&amp;#x27;s ability to choose a window manager theme. It also removes the possibility to disable the toolbar area from certain applications, eg text editors. They also tend to result in applications that lack traditional menubars, which are very useful for complex programs.&lt;p&gt;I have already dropped every last Gnome 3 application over this nonsense. This is going to be horrendous to have to stop using Xfce now, too.&lt;p&gt;Sorry, I know HN doesn&amp;#x27;t like negativity, but this &amp;quot;change for the sake of it&amp;quot; stuff is getting really old. I just want to keep using my computer the way that&amp;#x27;s worked just fine for me for the past 25 years. This really is a step backward in usability. I don&amp;#x27;t want to have to target tiny slivers between widgets, or hold down Alt to move windows around. And for applications I want an actual toolbar in, I don&amp;#x27;t like how most of the toolbar icons disappear so that things can be merged into the titlebar area.</text></item></parent_chain><comment><author>reitanqild</author><text>&lt;i&gt;Sorry, I know HN doesn&amp;#x27;t like negativity, but this &amp;quot;change for the sake of it&amp;quot; stuff is getting really old. &lt;/i&gt;&lt;p&gt;Agree.&lt;p&gt;I sense I am getting old and grumpy but there is something to learn here: there seems to be an increasing number of people, even in open source, who just want stuff to &lt;i&gt;work&lt;/i&gt;.&lt;p&gt;I just want Ubuntu, dropline gnome, updated drivers, backed by a commercial vendor that I can pay a reasonable amount to  to make sure they &lt;i&gt;never&lt;/i&gt; let designers, ux people, product managers etc &lt;i&gt;experiment&lt;/i&gt; with my desktop. Polishing it like Ubuntu originally did was totally ok though.&lt;p&gt;I don&amp;#x27;t want &amp;quot;spatial navigation&amp;quot; in Gnome. I don&amp;#x27;t want to have to think application or document&amp;quot; when I hit alt-tab, or having to wait for a (IMO, I  know some people love this feature, but bear with my rant here) retarded alt-tab to understand that I want to switch to a document under the app I have switched to, then wait again for it to slide out nicely.&lt;p&gt;No! I want alt tab to switch through my last used windows. If it looks really nice, bonus.&lt;p&gt;I want my drivers to work. Etc.&lt;p&gt;And most of all: I don&amp;#x27;t want Linux to copy Mac! If I want a Mac I can get my boss to get me one!</text></comment>
<story><title>Releases for XFCE</title><url>https://simon.shimmerproject.org/2017/02/13/releases-releases-releases/</url></story><parent_chain><item><author>near</author><text>Sigh, are they seriously bringing GTK3&amp;#x27;s client-side decorations and lack of title bars to Xfce??!&lt;p&gt;Applications should have title bars. This is how it&amp;#x27;s been done everywhere since pretty much the first Xerox GUI. Monitors are bigger than ever today. I promise, people can spare 10 pixels of vertical space so that they can see the name of the application being run (and the name of documents open in said application), and have a very easy area to click on to move the window around with. GTK3 CSDs also break the user&amp;#x27;s ability to choose a window manager theme. It also removes the possibility to disable the toolbar area from certain applications, eg text editors. They also tend to result in applications that lack traditional menubars, which are very useful for complex programs.&lt;p&gt;I have already dropped every last Gnome 3 application over this nonsense. This is going to be horrendous to have to stop using Xfce now, too.&lt;p&gt;Sorry, I know HN doesn&amp;#x27;t like negativity, but this &amp;quot;change for the sake of it&amp;quot; stuff is getting really old. I just want to keep using my computer the way that&amp;#x27;s worked just fine for me for the past 25 years. This really is a step backward in usability. I don&amp;#x27;t want to have to target tiny slivers between widgets, or hold down Alt to move windows around. And for applications I want an actual toolbar in, I don&amp;#x27;t like how most of the toolbar icons disappear so that things can be merged into the titlebar area.</text></item></parent_chain><comment><author>zanny</author><text>I&amp;#x27;m on the opposite side, in that I&amp;#x27;m a KDE user &amp;#x2F; infrequent contributor that has some jealousy for the good use of space Gnome manages to pull off with its decorations.&lt;p&gt;Your only real use for the title bar is a drag zone. Effectively a button to hold down. It doesn&amp;#x27;t need to occupy the entire horizontal width of your screen to do that. Gnome applications still show the same text information, they just have added buttons there as well to waste less space. You still have ample drag room.&lt;p&gt;If a program doesn&amp;#x27;t have enough room for buttons or makes their CSD menu buttons obscure that is a design failure distinct from the bar itself. It is just a space saving measure. While screens are bigger, the vertical area is the premium, and wasting a 15px+ of it on an average of 20 characters of text and two buttons should be somewhere to look for improvement in.</text></comment>