<story><title>Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off</title><url>https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/CA+55aFy+Hv9O5citAawS+mVZO+ywCKd9NQ2wxUmGsz9ZJzqgJQ@mail.gmail.com/</url></story><parent_chain><item><author>nomel</author><text>Personally, and maybe I’m in the minority when thinking this, but I can’t stand working with polite people.&lt;p&gt;They not only slow down the progress of a project by often causing unneeded busywork, from simply not halting bad ideas, they often slow my learning progress down by not telling me I’m wrong.&lt;p&gt;If you see something stupid, call it out. If I’m doing something stupid or say something wrong, call me out!&lt;p&gt;There’s obviously a happy medium somewhere in there, and Linus isn’t it, but I would much prefer working with a Linus than someone polite. From the history I’ve read, he’s not holding grudges, or necessarily attacking people, he’s attacking dumb approaches and ideas, which happen to be authored by people. At least that’s how I’ve always interpreted his rants.</text></item><item><author>jjeaff</author><text>Is anyone really rallied to the cause by Linus himself? I think the product is the only real draw. With the exception of a select few that simply want to work with someone as high profile and legendary as Linus.</text></item><item><author>hyperpallium</author><text>&amp;gt; people who are able to accomplish their goals by rallying others to their cause.&lt;p&gt;Like Linus.</text></item><item><author>JohnBooty</author><text>&lt;p&gt;&lt;pre&gt;&lt;code&gt;    I&amp;#x27;d bet people tend to cluster onto the line 
    separating &amp;quot;agreeable and lax&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;rude but 
    firm&amp;quot; (as a sweeping generality)
&lt;/code&gt;&lt;/pre&gt;
Consider this:&lt;p&gt;A third category of people who are able to accomplish their goals by rallying others to their cause. They are essentially imposing their will on others, but are able to do it in a way that is not &amp;quot;rude.&amp;quot;  This is called charisma.&lt;p&gt;- &amp;quot;Agreeable and lax&amp;quot;... you allow them to paint the fence however they want, even if their work is shoddy. you may wind up doing it yourself because you don&amp;#x27;t feel comfortable enforcing your will on others. or perhaps you just wind up with a crappy looking fence.&lt;p&gt;- &amp;quot;Rude but firm&amp;quot;... you don&amp;#x27;t care about others&amp;#x27; feelings and force them somehow to to paint the fence to your specifications. either by physical force, economic force (you have money they need) or some other means&lt;p&gt;- &amp;quot;Charisma&amp;quot;... you convince them that painting the fence the way you want it painted is the best possible thing they could be doing. they willingly paint it for you because they believe it is a good cause and a good use of their time. (note: this does not necessarily imply dishonesty or trickery. arguably, the most charismatic people might be those that are true believers)&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.google.com&amp;#x2F;search?q=tom+sawyer+fence&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.google.com&amp;#x2F;search?q=tom+sawyer+fence&lt;/a&gt;&lt;p&gt;Somewhat tangential, somewhat related: Sun Tzu wrote that the most perfect form of victory was adding the enemies&amp;#x27; forces to you own by convincing them to support your cause.</text></item><item><author>jakeinspace</author><text>Linus is stubborn, persistent, and unyielding to what he sees as bullshit. These I believe are all very valuable qualities for the head of a massive software project, and may be part of the reason as to why Linux is where it is today.&lt;p&gt;However, Linus is also a bit of an asshole, turning technical criticism into personal seemingly personal attacks. I believe those 2 sets of qualities are separable, but I would guess it&amp;#x27;s uncommon to find many people who are capable of being as tough as Linus without in some way alienating those around them, it&amp;#x27;s a fine line at times.&lt;p&gt;Anecdotally, one of the most effective engineers I worked with, who asked penetrating questions during code and design reviews, did come off as a bit of an asshole at times. Whether by genetics or through childhood, I&amp;#x27;d bet people tend to cluster onto the line separating &amp;quot;agreeable and lax&amp;quot; and  &amp;quot;rude but firm&amp;quot; (as a sweeping generality). We often label people who are all smiles while simultaneously extremely strict as passive agressive. Add to that the fact that many technical people are less socially adjusted than average and I can see why we have so many examples of mean but effective project leads.</text></item></parent_chain><comment><author>olavk</author><text>So you are equating politeness with not halting bad ideas. That is not politeness, that is incompetence. Competent people would halt bad ides, but it can be done in different ways:&lt;p&gt;- Abrasive: This idea is the dumbest ever and you are an idiot that deserves to die.&lt;p&gt;- Constructive: This idea have problems X, Y and Z.&lt;p&gt;- Polite: Thank you for the effort, but I see problems X, Y and Z with the idea in its current form.&lt;p&gt;A lot of the discussion here is confusing the question of competence with the question of tone. You can be competent and have a nice tone and you can certainly be incompetent and have an abrasive tone. I can understand not having the patience for politeness, but personal insults are obviously counterproductive.</text></comment>
<story><title>Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off</title><url>https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/CA+55aFy+Hv9O5citAawS+mVZO+ywCKd9NQ2wxUmGsz9ZJzqgJQ@mail.gmail.com/</url></story><parent_chain><item><author>nomel</author><text>Personally, and maybe I’m in the minority when thinking this, but I can’t stand working with polite people.&lt;p&gt;They not only slow down the progress of a project by often causing unneeded busywork, from simply not halting bad ideas, they often slow my learning progress down by not telling me I’m wrong.&lt;p&gt;If you see something stupid, call it out. If I’m doing something stupid or say something wrong, call me out!&lt;p&gt;There’s obviously a happy medium somewhere in there, and Linus isn’t it, but I would much prefer working with a Linus than someone polite. From the history I’ve read, he’s not holding grudges, or necessarily attacking people, he’s attacking dumb approaches and ideas, which happen to be authored by people. At least that’s how I’ve always interpreted his rants.</text></item><item><author>jjeaff</author><text>Is anyone really rallied to the cause by Linus himself? I think the product is the only real draw. With the exception of a select few that simply want to work with someone as high profile and legendary as Linus.</text></item><item><author>hyperpallium</author><text>&amp;gt; people who are able to accomplish their goals by rallying others to their cause.&lt;p&gt;Like Linus.</text></item><item><author>JohnBooty</author><text>&lt;p&gt;&lt;pre&gt;&lt;code&gt;    I&amp;#x27;d bet people tend to cluster onto the line 
    separating &amp;quot;agreeable and lax&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;rude but 
    firm&amp;quot; (as a sweeping generality)
&lt;/code&gt;&lt;/pre&gt;
Consider this:&lt;p&gt;A third category of people who are able to accomplish their goals by rallying others to their cause. They are essentially imposing their will on others, but are able to do it in a way that is not &amp;quot;rude.&amp;quot;  This is called charisma.&lt;p&gt;- &amp;quot;Agreeable and lax&amp;quot;... you allow them to paint the fence however they want, even if their work is shoddy. you may wind up doing it yourself because you don&amp;#x27;t feel comfortable enforcing your will on others. or perhaps you just wind up with a crappy looking fence.&lt;p&gt;- &amp;quot;Rude but firm&amp;quot;... you don&amp;#x27;t care about others&amp;#x27; feelings and force them somehow to to paint the fence to your specifications. either by physical force, economic force (you have money they need) or some other means&lt;p&gt;- &amp;quot;Charisma&amp;quot;... you convince them that painting the fence the way you want it painted is the best possible thing they could be doing. they willingly paint it for you because they believe it is a good cause and a good use of their time. (note: this does not necessarily imply dishonesty or trickery. arguably, the most charismatic people might be those that are true believers)&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.google.com&amp;#x2F;search?q=tom+sawyer+fence&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.google.com&amp;#x2F;search?q=tom+sawyer+fence&lt;/a&gt;&lt;p&gt;Somewhat tangential, somewhat related: Sun Tzu wrote that the most perfect form of victory was adding the enemies&amp;#x27; forces to you own by convincing them to support your cause.</text></item><item><author>jakeinspace</author><text>Linus is stubborn, persistent, and unyielding to what he sees as bullshit. These I believe are all very valuable qualities for the head of a massive software project, and may be part of the reason as to why Linux is where it is today.&lt;p&gt;However, Linus is also a bit of an asshole, turning technical criticism into personal seemingly personal attacks. I believe those 2 sets of qualities are separable, but I would guess it&amp;#x27;s uncommon to find many people who are capable of being as tough as Linus without in some way alienating those around them, it&amp;#x27;s a fine line at times.&lt;p&gt;Anecdotally, one of the most effective engineers I worked with, who asked penetrating questions during code and design reviews, did come off as a bit of an asshole at times. Whether by genetics or through childhood, I&amp;#x27;d bet people tend to cluster onto the line separating &amp;quot;agreeable and lax&amp;quot; and  &amp;quot;rude but firm&amp;quot; (as a sweeping generality). We often label people who are all smiles while simultaneously extremely strict as passive agressive. Add to that the fact that many technical people are less socially adjusted than average and I can see why we have so many examples of mean but effective project leads.</text></item></parent_chain><comment><author>bluecalm</author><text>You&amp;#x27;re in the minority but you&amp;#x27;re not the only one. You can see the sentiment expressed about Rust community a lot. Super nice - don&amp;#x27;t ever say anything that may upset someone - kind of atmosphere is off-putting to many. I for one wouldn&amp;#x27;t want to work in such environment but I would love to work with Linus.&lt;p&gt;The problem is that people who prefer direct non-bs communication are also usually more emotionally mature  and better at adjusting to others. They will keep quiet or look to move somewhere else but will rarely complain. Meanwhile easily upset and less stable people  complain more readily and usually louder to force others to adopt their preferred style of communication (which often comes down to &amp;quot;don&amp;#x27;t criticize me and use the kind of language I prefer&amp;quot;)</text></comment>