<story><title>NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings</title><url>https://nypost.com/2021/08/03/nyc-to-mandate-proof-of-vaccination-for-many-indoor-settings/</url></story><parent_chain><item><author>rubicon33</author><text>&amp;gt; We should be reacting rationally to rates of hospitalization and deaths -- and right now, those are barely changed in NYC,&lt;p&gt;No. No. No. No. No.&lt;p&gt;Why is this so hard for people to understand?  A virus doesn&amp;#x27;t just enter your body, and quietly go away.  In MANY cases, it can have a lasting effect on your underlying health and wellness.  This isn&amp;#x27;t a point of question, it&amp;#x27;s a known FACT that is all too often left out of the discussion entirely.&lt;p&gt;I am vaccinated.  I have friends who are vaccinated, and have still gotten COVID.  One of them still doesn&amp;#x27;t have their sense of taste and smell back, after nearly 3 weeks post symptoms.  They describe being brain fog, and tiredness that they didn&amp;#x27;t have before, as well as an &amp;quot;itch&amp;quot; in their lungs when exercising that they didn&amp;#x27;t have before.&lt;p&gt;There&amp;#x27;s absolutely no reason to say things like &amp;quot;hysterical fixation on cases&amp;quot;.  Bringing cases down means LESS LIVES LOST and less HEALTH lost.</text></item><item><author>timr</author><text>I am pro-vaccine (and fully vaccinated), but I don&amp;#x27;t support this policy at all.&lt;p&gt;I don&amp;#x27;t believe this will have much of a net effect on vaccination rate, I believe it will disproportionately negatively impact poor and minority populations in NYC who &lt;i&gt;already&lt;/i&gt; have a bad&amp;#x2F;mistrustful relationship with health care and government, and it is obviously a huge new governmental intrusion into our daily lives. It might well lead to anger and violence (as similar moves have across Europe).&lt;p&gt;These are my opinions, but I think the strongest arguments against it are facts: if you are fully vaccinated, &lt;i&gt;you are at essentially no risk of serious illness from SARS-CoV2&lt;/i&gt;. And literally anyone who wants a vaccine can get one. Those who choose not to get vaccinated are making a risk calculation; they are making a &lt;i&gt;choice&lt;/i&gt;.&lt;p&gt;This policy comes from an almost hysterical fixation on &amp;quot;cases&amp;quot;, which are not a metric of any meaning. SARS-CoV2 is not going away. We should be reacting rationally to rates of hospitalization and deaths -- and right now, those are barely changed in NYC, thanks to the very high vaccination rate amongst the vulnerable population:&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www1.nyc.gov&amp;#x2F;site&amp;#x2F;doh&amp;#x2F;covid&amp;#x2F;covid-19-data-trends.page&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www1.nyc.gov&amp;#x2F;site&amp;#x2F;doh&amp;#x2F;covid&amp;#x2F;covid-19-data-trends.pag...&lt;/a&gt;&lt;p&gt;One can certainly argue that there exist small groups of people for whom the vaccine is not perfect protection. This is true, but it&amp;#x27;s no different than &lt;i&gt;all other viruses&lt;/i&gt;, which have threatened immunocompromised people forever. We have never before justified such intrusive government policies based on the risks faced by these individuals. So while I empathize with them, this still seems like over-reach to me.</text></item><item><author>alecst</author><text>Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can&amp;#x27;t have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy.&lt;p&gt;From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if:&lt;p&gt;1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone eating takes off their mask right away?&lt;p&gt;2. You have fears about the privacy implications. If so, what are those fears? Perhaps your vaccination status can lead people to make inferences about your health?&lt;p&gt;3. You are not particularly concerned about the community spread of coronavirus (and the implications of that)&lt;p&gt;There aren&amp;#x27;t a lot of choices. You can 1) avoid high-risk areas and escape infection&amp;#x2F;spreading disease, in which case, this policy doesn&amp;#x27;t really directly affect you. Or 2) you can take your chances with coronavirus, which you will get sooner or later, and spread it. Or 3) you can &amp;quot;take your chances&amp;quot; with the vaccine which, statistically and biologically, is safer than getting coronavirus and reduces spread.&lt;p&gt;This policy allows people to choose from 1) and 3) but not 2), which is in all ways the worst decision. Unless, of course, you think that the vaccine is more dangerous than coronavirus. And then I don&amp;#x27;t really know what to say.&lt;p&gt;(lightly edited for clarification)</text></item></parent_chain><comment><author>timr</author><text>Thank you for providing an excellent example of the fear-based reasoning surrounding &amp;quot;cases&amp;quot;. I understand that you are scared, but is incorrect to imply that my opinion comes from a lack of understanding of what you&amp;#x27;re talking about.&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; Why is this so hard for people to understand?&lt;p&gt;I understand your argument, but I &lt;i&gt;disagree&lt;/i&gt; with you, based on a long education in this area, a deep understanding of the data, and personal experience.&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; A virus doesn&amp;#x27;t just enter your body, and quietly go away.&lt;p&gt;Some do not. This one does.&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; In MANY cases, it can have a lasting effect on your underlying health and wellness.&lt;p&gt;In &lt;i&gt;some&lt;/i&gt;, rare cases, we see examples of post-viral syndromes. We have seen these for many different viruses.&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; I am vaccinated. I have friends who are vaccinated, and have still gotten COVID. One of them still doesn&amp;#x27;t have their sense of taste and smell back, after nearly 3 weeks post symptoms.&lt;p&gt;Again, lingering symptoms following an illness are not unknown. Every time I get a head cold, I typically develop a cough that lasts &amp;gt; 3 weeks. By ~all current evidentiary standards for &amp;quot;long covid&amp;quot;, I have had &amp;quot;long cold&amp;quot;.&lt;p&gt;Similarly, my grandmother lost her sense of smell to a head cold when I was a child. She never got it back, entirely. Sad, but not something that we took extraordinary societal interventions to prevent.&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; They describe being brain fog, and tiredness that they didn&amp;#x27;t have before, as well as an &amp;quot;itch&amp;quot; in their lungs when exercising that they didn&amp;#x27;t have before.&lt;p&gt;Neither of these are objectively defined. I have an &amp;quot;itch&amp;quot; in my lungs, right now (probably allergies). I have never had Covid. When I don&amp;#x27;t sleep well (which is often, thanks to the state of our society), I have trouble focusing. Is that &amp;quot;brain fog&amp;quot;?&lt;p&gt;Point being: some people are going to have after-effects from infection. That&amp;#x27;s unfortunate, but it&amp;#x27;s not unknown, and the virus &lt;i&gt;isn&amp;#x27;t going away&lt;/i&gt;. If the choice is to completely up-end our society to prevent people from ever getting sick again, then I&amp;#x27;m strongly opposed.</text></comment>
<story><title>NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings</title><url>https://nypost.com/2021/08/03/nyc-to-mandate-proof-of-vaccination-for-many-indoor-settings/</url></story><parent_chain><item><author>rubicon33</author><text>&amp;gt; We should be reacting rationally to rates of hospitalization and deaths -- and right now, those are barely changed in NYC,&lt;p&gt;No. No. No. No. No.&lt;p&gt;Why is this so hard for people to understand?  A virus doesn&amp;#x27;t just enter your body, and quietly go away.  In MANY cases, it can have a lasting effect on your underlying health and wellness.  This isn&amp;#x27;t a point of question, it&amp;#x27;s a known FACT that is all too often left out of the discussion entirely.&lt;p&gt;I am vaccinated.  I have friends who are vaccinated, and have still gotten COVID.  One of them still doesn&amp;#x27;t have their sense of taste and smell back, after nearly 3 weeks post symptoms.  They describe being brain fog, and tiredness that they didn&amp;#x27;t have before, as well as an &amp;quot;itch&amp;quot; in their lungs when exercising that they didn&amp;#x27;t have before.&lt;p&gt;There&amp;#x27;s absolutely no reason to say things like &amp;quot;hysterical fixation on cases&amp;quot;.  Bringing cases down means LESS LIVES LOST and less HEALTH lost.</text></item><item><author>timr</author><text>I am pro-vaccine (and fully vaccinated), but I don&amp;#x27;t support this policy at all.&lt;p&gt;I don&amp;#x27;t believe this will have much of a net effect on vaccination rate, I believe it will disproportionately negatively impact poor and minority populations in NYC who &lt;i&gt;already&lt;/i&gt; have a bad&amp;#x2F;mistrustful relationship with health care and government, and it is obviously a huge new governmental intrusion into our daily lives. It might well lead to anger and violence (as similar moves have across Europe).&lt;p&gt;These are my opinions, but I think the strongest arguments against it are facts: if you are fully vaccinated, &lt;i&gt;you are at essentially no risk of serious illness from SARS-CoV2&lt;/i&gt;. And literally anyone who wants a vaccine can get one. Those who choose not to get vaccinated are making a risk calculation; they are making a &lt;i&gt;choice&lt;/i&gt;.&lt;p&gt;This policy comes from an almost hysterical fixation on &amp;quot;cases&amp;quot;, which are not a metric of any meaning. SARS-CoV2 is not going away. We should be reacting rationally to rates of hospitalization and deaths -- and right now, those are barely changed in NYC, thanks to the very high vaccination rate amongst the vulnerable population:&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www1.nyc.gov&amp;#x2F;site&amp;#x2F;doh&amp;#x2F;covid&amp;#x2F;covid-19-data-trends.page&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www1.nyc.gov&amp;#x2F;site&amp;#x2F;doh&amp;#x2F;covid&amp;#x2F;covid-19-data-trends.pag...&lt;/a&gt;&lt;p&gt;One can certainly argue that there exist small groups of people for whom the vaccine is not perfect protection. This is true, but it&amp;#x27;s no different than &lt;i&gt;all other viruses&lt;/i&gt;, which have threatened immunocompromised people forever. We have never before justified such intrusive government policies based on the risks faced by these individuals. So while I empathize with them, this still seems like over-reach to me.</text></item><item><author>alecst</author><text>Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can&amp;#x27;t have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy.&lt;p&gt;From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if:&lt;p&gt;1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone eating takes off their mask right away?&lt;p&gt;2. You have fears about the privacy implications. If so, what are those fears? Perhaps your vaccination status can lead people to make inferences about your health?&lt;p&gt;3. You are not particularly concerned about the community spread of coronavirus (and the implications of that)&lt;p&gt;There aren&amp;#x27;t a lot of choices. You can 1) avoid high-risk areas and escape infection&amp;#x2F;spreading disease, in which case, this policy doesn&amp;#x27;t really directly affect you. Or 2) you can take your chances with coronavirus, which you will get sooner or later, and spread it. Or 3) you can &amp;quot;take your chances&amp;quot; with the vaccine which, statistically and biologically, is safer than getting coronavirus and reduces spread.&lt;p&gt;This policy allows people to choose from 1) and 3) but not 2), which is in all ways the worst decision. Unless, of course, you think that the vaccine is more dangerous than coronavirus. And then I don&amp;#x27;t really know what to say.&lt;p&gt;(lightly edited for clarification)</text></item></parent_chain><comment><author>trhway</author><text>&amp;gt;I am vaccinated. I have friends who are vaccinated, and have still gotten COVID.&lt;p&gt;vaccinated people get covid and spread it like unvaccinated[1]. Then what is the point of vaccination mandate? I really don&amp;#x27;t understand.&lt;p&gt;Add to that that since May CDC stopped counting breakthrough cases which don&amp;#x27;t result in hospitalizations.&lt;p&gt;[1] &lt;a href=&quot;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.cnbc.com&amp;#x2F;2021&amp;#x2F;07&amp;#x2F;30&amp;#x2F;cdc-study-shows-74percent-of-people-infected-in-massachusetts-covid-outbreak-were-fully-vaccinated.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.cnbc.com&amp;#x2F;2021&amp;#x2F;07&amp;#x2F;30&amp;#x2F;cdc-study-shows-74percent-of...&lt;/a&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;quot;About three-fourths of people infected in a Massachusetts Covid-19 outbreak were fully vaccinated, according to new data published Friday by the CDC.&lt;p&gt;The new data, published in the U.S. agency’s Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report, also found that fully vaccinated people who get infected carry as much of the virus in their nose as unvaccinated people. &amp;quot;</text></comment>