<story><title>Tesla FSD data is getting worse, according to beta tester self-reports</title><url>https://electrek.co/2022/12/14/tesla-full-self-driving-data-awful-challenge-elon-musk-prove-otherwise/</url></story><parent_chain><item><author>slg</author><text>But stop and go traffic jams in perfect conditions can already be handled properly by numerous companies&amp;#x27; adaptive cruise control and lane keeping systems.  I&amp;#x27;m not sure why I should be impressed with Mercedes&amp;#x27; tech here.  The impressive aspect is that they are standing behind the tech by taking on liability, but that could easily just be considered a marketing expense rather than actual confidence in the technology.  We have all heard the auto manufacturer anecdote from Fight Club.  The math these companies do is based off money and not lives saved.</text></item><item><author>lolinder</author><text>People have mentioned this in other sub-threads, but it&amp;#x27;s explicitly intended for stop-and-go traffic jams:&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; Mercedez-Benz has announced approval of their “Drive Pilot” system, in Germany, which does fully autonomous operation in highway traffic jam situations.&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; ...&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; The Mercedes car provides the traffic jam assist function — only on German motorways to start — below 60 km&amp;#x2F;h. While people debate whether they want to drive their car or not, nobody likes driving in a traffic jam, and everybody hates the time wasted in them. As a luxury feature, this will let drivers make more productive use of that time.&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.forbes.com&amp;#x2F;sites&amp;#x2F;bradtempleton&amp;#x2F;2021&amp;#x2F;12&amp;#x2F;13&amp;#x2F;mercedes-gets-approval-for-traffic-jam-pilot-where-is-tesla&amp;#x2F;?sh=ae96a6b5fc8e&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.forbes.com&amp;#x2F;sites&amp;#x2F;bradtempleton&amp;#x2F;2021&amp;#x2F;12&amp;#x2F;13&amp;#x2F;merced...&lt;/a&gt;</text></item><item><author>gzer0</author><text>Here is the full list of restrictions for the Drive Pilot legal liabities to take effect:&lt;p&gt;&lt;pre&gt;&lt;code&gt;  Roads need to be premapped ahead of time with LiDAR
  Roads need to be pre-approved
  Car cannot go above 37 MPH
  limited-access divided highways with no stoplights
  no roundabouts
  no traffic control systems whatsoever
  no construction zones
  only operate during daytime
  Reasonably clear weather
  Without overhead obstructions
&lt;/code&gt;&lt;/pre&gt;
It is actually &lt;i&gt;illegal&lt;/i&gt; to be going that slow on a highway, in Texas at least. This would simply be too dangerous to even allow.&lt;p&gt;Let me know of any other system that is even remotely close to being able to do the following:&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.youtube.com&amp;#x2F;watch?v=qFAlwAawSvU&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.youtube.com&amp;#x2F;watch?v=qFAlwAawSvU&lt;/a&gt;</text></item><item><author>danso</author><text>Earlier this year when Mercedes announced its Level 3 &amp;quot;Drive Pilot&amp;quot; system [0], a lot of Tesla stans mocked its limitations, which to be honest, &lt;i&gt;are&lt;/i&gt; quite numerous on the face of it:&lt;p&gt;- Only allowed on limited-access divided highways with no stoplights, roundabouts, or other traffic control systems&lt;p&gt;- Limited to a top speed of less than 40 mph&lt;p&gt;- Operates only during the daytime and in clear weather&lt;p&gt;But the big promise from Mercedes is that it would take legal liability for any accidents that occurs during Drive Pilot&amp;#x27;s operation, something that Tesla doesn&amp;#x27;t appear to be even thinking about wrt Autopilot and FSD.&lt;p&gt;I would love someone to goad&amp;#x2F;challenge Tesla to step up to Mercedes. If FSD is so much better than Drive Pilot, then why doesn&amp;#x27;t Tesla agree to provide a &amp;quot;safe mode&amp;quot; for FSD, that operates with the exact same restrictions as Mercedes&amp;#x27; D-P, and offers the same legal protections to any users who happen to get into accidents during &amp;quot;safe mode&amp;quot; FSD operation?&lt;p&gt;[0] &lt;a href=&quot;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.roadandtrack.com&amp;#x2F;news&amp;#x2F;a39481699&amp;#x2F;what-happens-if-mercedes-drivepilot-causes-a-crash&amp;#x2F;&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.roadandtrack.com&amp;#x2F;news&amp;#x2F;a39481699&amp;#x2F;what-happens-if-...&lt;/a&gt;</text></item></parent_chain><comment><author>ummonk</author><text>The difference is that they&amp;#x27;re explicitly allowing the driver to stop paying attention to driving, which reduces fatigue, wasted time etc. It&amp;#x27;s actual level 3 self-driving tech rather than mere driver assistance tech.&lt;p&gt;Of course, other driver assistance systems might be close to on par with it, but a system that successfully navigates stop and go traffic 99% of the time is very different from a system that successfully navigates stop and go traffic 100% of the time, in terms of driver attention required.</text></comment>
<story><title>Tesla FSD data is getting worse, according to beta tester self-reports</title><url>https://electrek.co/2022/12/14/tesla-full-self-driving-data-awful-challenge-elon-musk-prove-otherwise/</url></story><parent_chain><item><author>slg</author><text>But stop and go traffic jams in perfect conditions can already be handled properly by numerous companies&amp;#x27; adaptive cruise control and lane keeping systems.  I&amp;#x27;m not sure why I should be impressed with Mercedes&amp;#x27; tech here.  The impressive aspect is that they are standing behind the tech by taking on liability, but that could easily just be considered a marketing expense rather than actual confidence in the technology.  We have all heard the auto manufacturer anecdote from Fight Club.  The math these companies do is based off money and not lives saved.</text></item><item><author>lolinder</author><text>People have mentioned this in other sub-threads, but it&amp;#x27;s explicitly intended for stop-and-go traffic jams:&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; Mercedez-Benz has announced approval of their “Drive Pilot” system, in Germany, which does fully autonomous operation in highway traffic jam situations.&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; ...&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; The Mercedes car provides the traffic jam assist function — only on German motorways to start — below 60 km&amp;#x2F;h. While people debate whether they want to drive their car or not, nobody likes driving in a traffic jam, and everybody hates the time wasted in them. As a luxury feature, this will let drivers make more productive use of that time.&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.forbes.com&amp;#x2F;sites&amp;#x2F;bradtempleton&amp;#x2F;2021&amp;#x2F;12&amp;#x2F;13&amp;#x2F;mercedes-gets-approval-for-traffic-jam-pilot-where-is-tesla&amp;#x2F;?sh=ae96a6b5fc8e&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.forbes.com&amp;#x2F;sites&amp;#x2F;bradtempleton&amp;#x2F;2021&amp;#x2F;12&amp;#x2F;13&amp;#x2F;merced...&lt;/a&gt;</text></item><item><author>gzer0</author><text>Here is the full list of restrictions for the Drive Pilot legal liabities to take effect:&lt;p&gt;&lt;pre&gt;&lt;code&gt;  Roads need to be premapped ahead of time with LiDAR
  Roads need to be pre-approved
  Car cannot go above 37 MPH
  limited-access divided highways with no stoplights
  no roundabouts
  no traffic control systems whatsoever
  no construction zones
  only operate during daytime
  Reasonably clear weather
  Without overhead obstructions
&lt;/code&gt;&lt;/pre&gt;
It is actually &lt;i&gt;illegal&lt;/i&gt; to be going that slow on a highway, in Texas at least. This would simply be too dangerous to even allow.&lt;p&gt;Let me know of any other system that is even remotely close to being able to do the following:&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.youtube.com&amp;#x2F;watch?v=qFAlwAawSvU&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.youtube.com&amp;#x2F;watch?v=qFAlwAawSvU&lt;/a&gt;</text></item><item><author>danso</author><text>Earlier this year when Mercedes announced its Level 3 &amp;quot;Drive Pilot&amp;quot; system [0], a lot of Tesla stans mocked its limitations, which to be honest, &lt;i&gt;are&lt;/i&gt; quite numerous on the face of it:&lt;p&gt;- Only allowed on limited-access divided highways with no stoplights, roundabouts, or other traffic control systems&lt;p&gt;- Limited to a top speed of less than 40 mph&lt;p&gt;- Operates only during the daytime and in clear weather&lt;p&gt;But the big promise from Mercedes is that it would take legal liability for any accidents that occurs during Drive Pilot&amp;#x27;s operation, something that Tesla doesn&amp;#x27;t appear to be even thinking about wrt Autopilot and FSD.&lt;p&gt;I would love someone to goad&amp;#x2F;challenge Tesla to step up to Mercedes. If FSD is so much better than Drive Pilot, then why doesn&amp;#x27;t Tesla agree to provide a &amp;quot;safe mode&amp;quot; for FSD, that operates with the exact same restrictions as Mercedes&amp;#x27; D-P, and offers the same legal protections to any users who happen to get into accidents during &amp;quot;safe mode&amp;quot; FSD operation?&lt;p&gt;[0] &lt;a href=&quot;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.roadandtrack.com&amp;#x2F;news&amp;#x2F;a39481699&amp;#x2F;what-happens-if-mercedes-drivepilot-causes-a-crash&amp;#x2F;&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.roadandtrack.com&amp;#x2F;news&amp;#x2F;a39481699&amp;#x2F;what-happens-if-...&lt;/a&gt;</text></item></parent_chain><comment><author>lolinder</author><text>Based on all the information I&amp;#x27;ve seen, adaptive cruise control with lane keeping is all that Tesla is reliable at as well. The main difference between them and Mercedes is that Tesla is willing to put out tech that is known to be unreliable and let their customers take the fall for it.</text></comment>