<story><title>Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first &apos;Full Self-Driving&apos; fatality</title><url>https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/interactive/2024/tesla-full-self-driving-fatal-crash/</url></story><parent_chain><item><author>ra7</author><text>As I said in another comment, these two were idiots driving drunk. Let&amp;#x27;s get that out of the way.&lt;p&gt;The bigger issue here is how this deniability is all too convenient for Tesla. The process goes like this:&lt;p&gt;1. Ship a clearly half baked system called &amp;quot;Full Self Driving&amp;quot;.&lt;p&gt;2. Require driver&amp;#x27;s hands on the wheel at all times.&lt;p&gt;3. Be &lt;i&gt;extremely non-transparent&lt;/i&gt; about your system&amp;#x27;s safety. Tesla&amp;#x27;s crash reports in the public NHTSA database contains absolutely no details. Everything is redacted, we can&amp;#x27;t even know if the crash happened with FSD or with plain old Autopilot [1]. This is in stark contrast to the reports filed by driverless companies like Waymo and Cruise to the CA DMV [2], which Tesla refuses to do.&lt;p&gt;Also publish a &amp;quot;safety report&amp;quot; that&amp;#x27;s entirely marketing BS, which doesn&amp;#x27;t control for many factors (highway vs city streets, geography, time of day, age of cars, safety features, demographics) and hence is not apples-to-apples. Claim it&amp;#x27;s &amp;quot;safer than humans&amp;quot;.&lt;p&gt;[1] &lt;a href=&quot;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.nhtsa.gov&amp;#x2F;laws-regulations&amp;#x2F;standing-general-order-crash-reporting#data&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.nhtsa.gov&amp;#x2F;laws-regulations&amp;#x2F;standing-general-orde...&lt;/a&gt;&lt;p&gt;[2] &lt;a href=&quot;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.dmv.ca.gov&amp;#x2F;portal&amp;#x2F;vehicle-industry-services&amp;#x2F;autonomous-vehicles&amp;#x2F;autonomous-vehicle-collision-reports&amp;#x2F;&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.dmv.ca.gov&amp;#x2F;portal&amp;#x2F;vehicle-industry-services&amp;#x2F;auto...&lt;/a&gt;&lt;p&gt;4. When an accident happens, just say it&amp;#x27;s the driver&amp;#x27;s fault and that they should&amp;#x27;ve known it&amp;#x27;s just an L2 system.&lt;p&gt;5. Tweet about FSD vN+1 that&amp;#x27;s going to totally bring Full Self Driving by end of the year.</text></item></parent_chain><comment><author>basisword</author><text>It should be illegal for them to call it full self drive. It&amp;#x27;s 100% false advertising not to mention the &amp;#x27;danger&amp;#x27; that people will assume it is what it says it is.</text></comment>
<story><title>Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first &apos;Full Self-Driving&apos; fatality</title><url>https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/interactive/2024/tesla-full-self-driving-fatal-crash/</url></story><parent_chain><item><author>ra7</author><text>As I said in another comment, these two were idiots driving drunk. Let&amp;#x27;s get that out of the way.&lt;p&gt;The bigger issue here is how this deniability is all too convenient for Tesla. The process goes like this:&lt;p&gt;1. Ship a clearly half baked system called &amp;quot;Full Self Driving&amp;quot;.&lt;p&gt;2. Require driver&amp;#x27;s hands on the wheel at all times.&lt;p&gt;3. Be &lt;i&gt;extremely non-transparent&lt;/i&gt; about your system&amp;#x27;s safety. Tesla&amp;#x27;s crash reports in the public NHTSA database contains absolutely no details. Everything is redacted, we can&amp;#x27;t even know if the crash happened with FSD or with plain old Autopilot [1]. This is in stark contrast to the reports filed by driverless companies like Waymo and Cruise to the CA DMV [2], which Tesla refuses to do.&lt;p&gt;Also publish a &amp;quot;safety report&amp;quot; that&amp;#x27;s entirely marketing BS, which doesn&amp;#x27;t control for many factors (highway vs city streets, geography, time of day, age of cars, safety features, demographics) and hence is not apples-to-apples. Claim it&amp;#x27;s &amp;quot;safer than humans&amp;quot;.&lt;p&gt;[1] &lt;a href=&quot;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.nhtsa.gov&amp;#x2F;laws-regulations&amp;#x2F;standing-general-order-crash-reporting#data&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.nhtsa.gov&amp;#x2F;laws-regulations&amp;#x2F;standing-general-orde...&lt;/a&gt;&lt;p&gt;[2] &lt;a href=&quot;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.dmv.ca.gov&amp;#x2F;portal&amp;#x2F;vehicle-industry-services&amp;#x2F;autonomous-vehicles&amp;#x2F;autonomous-vehicle-collision-reports&amp;#x2F;&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.dmv.ca.gov&amp;#x2F;portal&amp;#x2F;vehicle-industry-services&amp;#x2F;auto...&lt;/a&gt;&lt;p&gt;4. When an accident happens, just say it&amp;#x27;s the driver&amp;#x27;s fault and that they should&amp;#x27;ve known it&amp;#x27;s just an L2 system.&lt;p&gt;5. Tweet about FSD vN+1 that&amp;#x27;s going to totally bring Full Self Driving by end of the year.</text></item></parent_chain><comment><author>xenadu02</author><text>Full disclosure: participated in Tesla&amp;#x27;s IPO, own a Tesla.&lt;p&gt;Tesla should be doing two things that would greatly reduce their liability while also keeping customers happy. Overall I think it wouldn&amp;#x27;t change the number of people buying into FSD anyway so there wouldn&amp;#x27;t be much downside for them.&lt;p&gt;1. Offer refunds for those for paid for FSD. Full refund until FSD has been enabled for a year and used more than N times, prorated after that based on usage. That gives existing customers a window to try it out and get their money back if they don&amp;#x27;t like it, with a full refund if they only tried it out or a partial refund even if they used the feature a lot.&lt;p&gt;2. Be clearer in their marketing and on the purchase page about the feature. Sell your vision of it but also be honest about the current state of it. IMHO it isn&amp;#x27;t that hard of a sell to most customers but you&amp;#x27;d be setting accurate expectations. Tech-aware people or those of us into EV tech are aware of FSD&amp;#x27;s limits but you are only going to disappoint people if they think FSD really is capable of full unattended self driving right now. That only hurts your brand and erodes trust. You can&amp;#x27;t hide the details in 6-point lawyerese and expect customers to be happy with you.&lt;p&gt;I was aware of the limits of FSD when we bought the car and considered it an investment in the future... but I don&amp;#x27;t use it often and told my spouse not to either. It is a beta feature and must be used with care.</text></comment>