<story><title>NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings</title><url>https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/28/nyregion/nyc-salary-transparency-job-postings.html</url></story><parent_chain><item><author>NovemberWhiskey</author><text>&amp;gt;&amp;gt; The fact is that many employers don&amp;#x27;t actually know what they would be willing to pay someone.&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; Then they need better data. A great way to get that would be looking at all the other job listings with salary ranges if they don&amp;#x27;t already have access to back channel data.&lt;p&gt;You&amp;#x27;re missing the point: the variable is the &lt;i&gt;candidate&lt;/i&gt;, not the role. I know the market rate for a candidate that is just over-the-bar for my role, and I know that market rate for a super-star who can not only do this role, but is probably already capable of doing the next one.&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; Then it should be multiple listings with different requirements, even if the only difference is years of experience.&lt;p&gt;So, what if you apply for a role that turns out to be wrong for you based on my assessment of you then I should reject you so you can re-apply for the other role? That&amp;#x27;s ridiculous.</text></item><item><author>jedberg</author><text>It is hard to convince someone they are wrong when their salary depends on being right.  But I&amp;#x27;m going to try.  I&amp;#x27;ve done hiring myself as a founder, so I have some experience here.&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; The fact is that many employers don&amp;#x27;t actually know what they would be willing to pay someone.&lt;p&gt;Then they need better data.  A great way to get that would be looking at all the other job listings with salary ranges if they don&amp;#x27;t already have access to back channel data.&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; It is also true that a single job ad might be aiming to employ a number of people at various positions of seniority and experience.&lt;p&gt;Then it should be multiple listings with different requirements, even if the only difference is years of experience.&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; So it does not surprise me that governments would legislate to require job ads to do the same - essentially because of ignorance about how the world works.&lt;p&gt;The way the government does it is more equitable, so it makes sense that they are trying to legislate that to the private sector.&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; If it makes you mad that job ads do not list salary, then there are good reasons and you will just have to get over or it not apply for that job.
It&amp;#x27;s that easy - if the ad doesn&amp;#x27;t specify salary and that is a key requirement for you, don&amp;#x27;t get angry, just don&amp;#x27;t apply.&lt;p&gt;This is exactly the problem.  If they aren&amp;#x27;t required to list it, they won&amp;#x27;t.  And this is harmful to people who aren&amp;#x27;t good negotiators.  And also harmful to women and minorities, as countless studies have shown they are chronically underpaid in large part because they aren&amp;#x27;t willing or able to negotiate.&lt;p&gt;That&amp;#x27;s why there is a push to force companies to list the salaries.&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; Far more important is to know the salary target that you are aiming for.&lt;p&gt;You&amp;#x27;re right!  The best way for me to know what salary to target is with lots of data about how much similar jobs pay.  A great way to get that is job listings with salary ranges, since I don&amp;#x27;t have access to data like the person offering the job does.</text></item><item><author>andrewstuart</author><text>I&amp;#x27;m a recruiter.&lt;p&gt;I&amp;#x27;ve known for a long time it drives people nuts that job ads don&amp;#x27;t have salary, or have a wide salary range.&lt;p&gt;The fact is that many employers &lt;i&gt;don&amp;#x27;t actually know what they would be willing to pay someone&lt;/i&gt;. Until they have met them, assessed them, heard what they salary target is and weighed it up against their skills and experience and calibrated it against the team.&lt;p&gt;The conversation almost always goes like this: Employers come to me and say &amp;quot;we want a great senior C# .NET developer&amp;quot;.  I say &amp;quot;what do you want to pay?&amp;quot;.  They say &amp;quot;don&amp;#x27;t know, we just want someone great, what do you think we need to pay to get the right person?&amp;quot;.  I say &amp;quot;I think it will be about $X, but lets put a job ad up and indicate it&amp;#x27;s top of range $ and see who we get.&amp;quot;&lt;p&gt;It is also true that a single job ad might be aiming to employ a number of people at various positions of seniority and experience.&lt;p&gt;Government agencies are required to carefully define salary ranges because that is the way they work.  So it does not surprise me that governments would legislate to require job ads to do the same - essentially because of ignorance about how the world works.&lt;p&gt;If it makes you mad that job ads do not list salary, then there are good reasons and you will just have to get over or it not apply for that job.&lt;p&gt;It&amp;#x27;s that easy - if the ad doesn&amp;#x27;t specify salary and that is a key requirement for you, don&amp;#x27;t get angry, just don&amp;#x27;t apply.&lt;p&gt;Being angry about it or feeling that employers&amp;#x2F;recruiters are playing some sort of manipulative game is ignoring the reality set out above.  And when you come into a position that requires recruiting, likely you&amp;#x27;ll speak to your recruiter and say &amp;quot;what do you think we&amp;#x27;ll need to pay for someone like this?&amp;quot;.&lt;p&gt;Far more important is to know the salary target that you are aiming for.&lt;p&gt;EDIT: lots of unhappy responses to this, but don&amp;#x27;t shoot the messenger.  Go ask your team lead&amp;#x2F;CEO&amp;#x2F;CTO how recruiting works.</text></item></parent_chain><comment><author>showerst</author><text>&amp;gt; I know the market rate for a candidate that is just over-the-bar for my role, and I know that market rate for a super-star&lt;p&gt;Great, then you know the good faith range and you&amp;#x27;re good to go.&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt;  then I should reject you so you can re-apply for the other role&lt;p&gt;In my experience this happens all the time at big corps and the government. Except it&amp;#x27;s not a rejection, just an &amp;quot;oh actually we have this other open job on the books that would be a better fit - let&amp;#x27;s transfer you over to that&amp;quot;</text></comment>
<story><title>NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings</title><url>https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/28/nyregion/nyc-salary-transparency-job-postings.html</url></story><parent_chain><item><author>NovemberWhiskey</author><text>&amp;gt;&amp;gt; The fact is that many employers don&amp;#x27;t actually know what they would be willing to pay someone.&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; Then they need better data. A great way to get that would be looking at all the other job listings with salary ranges if they don&amp;#x27;t already have access to back channel data.&lt;p&gt;You&amp;#x27;re missing the point: the variable is the &lt;i&gt;candidate&lt;/i&gt;, not the role. I know the market rate for a candidate that is just over-the-bar for my role, and I know that market rate for a super-star who can not only do this role, but is probably already capable of doing the next one.&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; Then it should be multiple listings with different requirements, even if the only difference is years of experience.&lt;p&gt;So, what if you apply for a role that turns out to be wrong for you based on my assessment of you then I should reject you so you can re-apply for the other role? That&amp;#x27;s ridiculous.</text></item><item><author>jedberg</author><text>It is hard to convince someone they are wrong when their salary depends on being right.  But I&amp;#x27;m going to try.  I&amp;#x27;ve done hiring myself as a founder, so I have some experience here.&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; The fact is that many employers don&amp;#x27;t actually know what they would be willing to pay someone.&lt;p&gt;Then they need better data.  A great way to get that would be looking at all the other job listings with salary ranges if they don&amp;#x27;t already have access to back channel data.&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; It is also true that a single job ad might be aiming to employ a number of people at various positions of seniority and experience.&lt;p&gt;Then it should be multiple listings with different requirements, even if the only difference is years of experience.&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; So it does not surprise me that governments would legislate to require job ads to do the same - essentially because of ignorance about how the world works.&lt;p&gt;The way the government does it is more equitable, so it makes sense that they are trying to legislate that to the private sector.&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; If it makes you mad that job ads do not list salary, then there are good reasons and you will just have to get over or it not apply for that job.
It&amp;#x27;s that easy - if the ad doesn&amp;#x27;t specify salary and that is a key requirement for you, don&amp;#x27;t get angry, just don&amp;#x27;t apply.&lt;p&gt;This is exactly the problem.  If they aren&amp;#x27;t required to list it, they won&amp;#x27;t.  And this is harmful to people who aren&amp;#x27;t good negotiators.  And also harmful to women and minorities, as countless studies have shown they are chronically underpaid in large part because they aren&amp;#x27;t willing or able to negotiate.&lt;p&gt;That&amp;#x27;s why there is a push to force companies to list the salaries.&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; Far more important is to know the salary target that you are aiming for.&lt;p&gt;You&amp;#x27;re right!  The best way for me to know what salary to target is with lots of data about how much similar jobs pay.  A great way to get that is job listings with salary ranges, since I don&amp;#x27;t have access to data like the person offering the job does.</text></item><item><author>andrewstuart</author><text>I&amp;#x27;m a recruiter.&lt;p&gt;I&amp;#x27;ve known for a long time it drives people nuts that job ads don&amp;#x27;t have salary, or have a wide salary range.&lt;p&gt;The fact is that many employers &lt;i&gt;don&amp;#x27;t actually know what they would be willing to pay someone&lt;/i&gt;. Until they have met them, assessed them, heard what they salary target is and weighed it up against their skills and experience and calibrated it against the team.&lt;p&gt;The conversation almost always goes like this: Employers come to me and say &amp;quot;we want a great senior C# .NET developer&amp;quot;.  I say &amp;quot;what do you want to pay?&amp;quot;.  They say &amp;quot;don&amp;#x27;t know, we just want someone great, what do you think we need to pay to get the right person?&amp;quot;.  I say &amp;quot;I think it will be about $X, but lets put a job ad up and indicate it&amp;#x27;s top of range $ and see who we get.&amp;quot;&lt;p&gt;It is also true that a single job ad might be aiming to employ a number of people at various positions of seniority and experience.&lt;p&gt;Government agencies are required to carefully define salary ranges because that is the way they work.  So it does not surprise me that governments would legislate to require job ads to do the same - essentially because of ignorance about how the world works.&lt;p&gt;If it makes you mad that job ads do not list salary, then there are good reasons and you will just have to get over or it not apply for that job.&lt;p&gt;It&amp;#x27;s that easy - if the ad doesn&amp;#x27;t specify salary and that is a key requirement for you, don&amp;#x27;t get angry, just don&amp;#x27;t apply.&lt;p&gt;Being angry about it or feeling that employers&amp;#x2F;recruiters are playing some sort of manipulative game is ignoring the reality set out above.  And when you come into a position that requires recruiting, likely you&amp;#x27;ll speak to your recruiter and say &amp;quot;what do you think we&amp;#x27;ll need to pay for someone like this?&amp;quot;.&lt;p&gt;Far more important is to know the salary target that you are aiming for.&lt;p&gt;EDIT: lots of unhappy responses to this, but don&amp;#x27;t shoot the messenger.  Go ask your team lead&amp;#x2F;CEO&amp;#x2F;CTO how recruiting works.</text></item></parent_chain><comment><author>jameshart</author><text>&amp;gt; I know the market rate for a candidate that is just over-the-bar for my role, and I know that market rate for a super-star who can not only do this role, but is probably already capable of doing the next one.&lt;p&gt;Those are going to be two vastly different numbers. Which one are you looking to pay for? If you have budget for a superstar, why would you settle for just-over-the-bar talent?&lt;p&gt;I kind of find myself suspecting that what you&amp;#x27;re really hoping for is that you&amp;#x27;ll find someone who has superstar talent, but doesn&amp;#x27;t know their market rate, so you can hire them at just-over-the-bar money.</text></comment>