<story><title>I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams</title><url>https://slate.com/human-interest/2019/12/college-dreams-say-no-avoid-student-debt.html</url></story><parent_chain><item><author>everdev</author><text>I went to a 4-year college, but earned almost all of my money from self-taught programming and design skills.&lt;p&gt;It&amp;#x27;s hard to justify the ROI on college.&lt;p&gt;At $25k&amp;#x2F;year for a low-tier college, you&amp;#x27;ll spend $100k (if you don&amp;#x27;t need loans). If you take that $100k and put it in the market (avg. 7% annual returns) with 0 contributions for 45 years, you could spend every penny you make and retire at 63 with $2.1M.&lt;p&gt;At more expensive colleges ($50k&amp;#x2F;yr+) the math seems less and less in your favor.</text></item><item><author>simonsarris</author><text>&amp;gt; Statistically, you still earn way more with a degree than without.&lt;p&gt;This is becoming less and less true for lots of cohorts. I suspect it will stop correlating for everyone soon.&lt;p&gt;From a few days ago: &amp;quot;Is College Still Worth It? The New Calculus of Falling Returns&amp;quot; by Center for Household Financial Stability, St Louis Fed&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.stlouisfed.org&amp;#x2F;~&amp;#x2F;media&amp;#x2F;files&amp;#x2F;pdfs&amp;#x2F;hfs&amp;#x2F;is-college-worth-it&amp;#x2F;emmons_kent_ricketts_college_still_worth_it.pdf?la=en&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.stlouisfed.org&amp;#x2F;~&amp;#x2F;media&amp;#x2F;files&amp;#x2F;pdfs&amp;#x2F;hfs&amp;#x2F;is-college...&lt;/a&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; The college wealth premium is at a historic low; among other races and ethnicities, it is statistically indistinguishable from zero&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; Our results suggest that college &amp;amp; post-grad education may be failing some recent graduates as a financial investment.&amp;quot;</text></item><item><author>honkycat</author><text>I think this trade school obsession is foolish. Everyone cargo-cults it as &amp;quot;pragmatic&amp;quot; without actually analyzing what the jobs entail and what you can actually expect to make.&lt;p&gt;Statistically, you still earn way more with a degree than without.&lt;p&gt;You EARN that pay in the trades, and being an electrician is dangerous. The work is hard on your body. A lot of electricians end up on disability.&lt;p&gt;I wasn&amp;#x27;t very academic growing up. But then I grew up, and now I am a pretty successful computer programmer making a lot more than that, for way better perks and less dangerous, damaging work.&lt;p&gt;You can make that kind of money as a manager at Walmart and you do not run the risk of getting your arm fried off or falling off a telephone pole.&lt;p&gt;And where does a few years as an electrician leave you if you don&amp;#x27;t end up liking the career? &amp;quot;Sorry son, the internet told me trades were a good idea. Maybe go back to school now that you are an adult with a family?&amp;quot; Part of the reason you go to school as a young person is that you do not have a family to feed or a house to pay off.</text></item><item><author>hajile</author><text>And here we have once again why the government shouldn&amp;#x27;t be subsidizing student loans and shouldn&amp;#x27;t exclude them from bankruptcy. We need to quit incentivizing sub-prime loans. Unlike the housing crash where the houses retained most of their value and could be sold later, you can&amp;#x27;t sell your degree to pay back the money.&lt;p&gt;If you&amp;#x27;re getting a necessary degree, it&amp;#x27;s very uncommon to default on your loan because you&amp;#x27;ll be in demand and getting a decent wage. Banks understand this fact and will do the math to give a loan anyway.&lt;p&gt;Some of my kids seem like they enjoy academics, but others do not. I&amp;#x27;ll be pushing the latter toward trade school. Average IBEW (electrical union) pay is about $20&amp;#x2F;hr for an apprentice and $33 for a journeyman. $40,000 to $66,000  with ZERO DEBT right out the gate is nothing to ignore (and that pay can easily double -- especially in your younger years -- if you&amp;#x27;re willing to travel and put in those extra hours). It sure beats minimum wage at a crappy service job.</text></item></parent_chain><comment><author>m11a</author><text>What if you don&amp;#x27;t plan to start your life at 63?&lt;p&gt;I&amp;#x27;m not planning for retirement. 63 is a long way off. There&amp;#x27;s a lot of life between now and then, indeed the majority of my life is between now and then.&lt;p&gt;These kinds of &amp;quot;responsible financial actions&amp;quot; are a bit silly imho. Invest in yourself now, and spend your time well now. College pays for itself, if you spent $100k on a decent degree I guarantee you&amp;#x27;ll earn that amount ten times over in any decent career. Aside from that, it&amp;#x27;s an experience, and that&amp;#x27;s worth some money in itself.</text></comment>
<story><title>I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams</title><url>https://slate.com/human-interest/2019/12/college-dreams-say-no-avoid-student-debt.html</url></story><parent_chain><item><author>everdev</author><text>I went to a 4-year college, but earned almost all of my money from self-taught programming and design skills.&lt;p&gt;It&amp;#x27;s hard to justify the ROI on college.&lt;p&gt;At $25k&amp;#x2F;year for a low-tier college, you&amp;#x27;ll spend $100k (if you don&amp;#x27;t need loans). If you take that $100k and put it in the market (avg. 7% annual returns) with 0 contributions for 45 years, you could spend every penny you make and retire at 63 with $2.1M.&lt;p&gt;At more expensive colleges ($50k&amp;#x2F;yr+) the math seems less and less in your favor.</text></item><item><author>simonsarris</author><text>&amp;gt; Statistically, you still earn way more with a degree than without.&lt;p&gt;This is becoming less and less true for lots of cohorts. I suspect it will stop correlating for everyone soon.&lt;p&gt;From a few days ago: &amp;quot;Is College Still Worth It? The New Calculus of Falling Returns&amp;quot; by Center for Household Financial Stability, St Louis Fed&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.stlouisfed.org&amp;#x2F;~&amp;#x2F;media&amp;#x2F;files&amp;#x2F;pdfs&amp;#x2F;hfs&amp;#x2F;is-college-worth-it&amp;#x2F;emmons_kent_ricketts_college_still_worth_it.pdf?la=en&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.stlouisfed.org&amp;#x2F;~&amp;#x2F;media&amp;#x2F;files&amp;#x2F;pdfs&amp;#x2F;hfs&amp;#x2F;is-college...&lt;/a&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; The college wealth premium is at a historic low; among other races and ethnicities, it is statistically indistinguishable from zero&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; Our results suggest that college &amp;amp; post-grad education may be failing some recent graduates as a financial investment.&amp;quot;</text></item><item><author>honkycat</author><text>I think this trade school obsession is foolish. Everyone cargo-cults it as &amp;quot;pragmatic&amp;quot; without actually analyzing what the jobs entail and what you can actually expect to make.&lt;p&gt;Statistically, you still earn way more with a degree than without.&lt;p&gt;You EARN that pay in the trades, and being an electrician is dangerous. The work is hard on your body. A lot of electricians end up on disability.&lt;p&gt;I wasn&amp;#x27;t very academic growing up. But then I grew up, and now I am a pretty successful computer programmer making a lot more than that, for way better perks and less dangerous, damaging work.&lt;p&gt;You can make that kind of money as a manager at Walmart and you do not run the risk of getting your arm fried off or falling off a telephone pole.&lt;p&gt;And where does a few years as an electrician leave you if you don&amp;#x27;t end up liking the career? &amp;quot;Sorry son, the internet told me trades were a good idea. Maybe go back to school now that you are an adult with a family?&amp;quot; Part of the reason you go to school as a young person is that you do not have a family to feed or a house to pay off.</text></item><item><author>hajile</author><text>And here we have once again why the government shouldn&amp;#x27;t be subsidizing student loans and shouldn&amp;#x27;t exclude them from bankruptcy. We need to quit incentivizing sub-prime loans. Unlike the housing crash where the houses retained most of their value and could be sold later, you can&amp;#x27;t sell your degree to pay back the money.&lt;p&gt;If you&amp;#x27;re getting a necessary degree, it&amp;#x27;s very uncommon to default on your loan because you&amp;#x27;ll be in demand and getting a decent wage. Banks understand this fact and will do the math to give a loan anyway.&lt;p&gt;Some of my kids seem like they enjoy academics, but others do not. I&amp;#x27;ll be pushing the latter toward trade school. Average IBEW (electrical union) pay is about $20&amp;#x2F;hr for an apprentice and $33 for a journeyman. $40,000 to $66,000  with ZERO DEBT right out the gate is nothing to ignore (and that pay can easily double -- especially in your younger years -- if you&amp;#x27;re willing to travel and put in those extra hours). It sure beats minimum wage at a crappy service job.</text></item></parent_chain><comment><author>learc83</author><text>Low tier college should be about $10k a year and that&amp;#x27;s assumimg you don&amp;#x27;t do 2 years a community college.&lt;p&gt;You shouldn&amp;#x27;t live on campus if you&amp;#x27;re price sensitive. And you cant include room and board in your calculations because you&amp;#x27;d need that anyway.&lt;p&gt;7% annual returns are also misleading because it ignores inflation. Edit--I&amp;#x27;ve since learned that 7% average already adjusts for inflation.</text></comment>