<story><title>General Motors Streetcar Conspiracy</title><url>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_conspiracy</url></story><parent_chain><item><author>rmason</author><text>My father frequently told me the story of mass transit in Detroit.  He was a fan of the interurbans which were street cars that travelled between cities, some of them fifty miles from Detroit.  Cars and later freeways totally killed off the interurbans.  In fact freeways killed off passenger trains as well.&lt;p&gt;But streetcars still thrived in Detroit.  You could get anywhere with them and even in the car capital of the world people went without them.  But then in a flash they were gone.  My father was a life long believer in the so called conspiracy.&lt;p&gt;He was regarded as a conspiracy theorist.  As a kid I wished he&amp;#x27;d just stop talking about it.  But then as a young adult the proof started coming out that maybe he was right all along.  But now with a big media push it&amp;#x27;s going the other way.  I know one thing in Michigan the politicians go along with whatever GM wants, always.&lt;p&gt;Michigan has some of the worst roads in America while at the same time having the largest gas taxes.  Yet when billions of dollars became available as a result of COVID what did the governor do who ran on the slogan, &amp;#x27;fix the damn roads&amp;#x27;?  She gave the money to GM for battery plants!  This Wikipedia page just looks like more spin to me.</text></item><item><author>m0llusk</author><text>This is false, revisionist history.  During the war maintenance was deferred and many operators either went bankrupt or dramatically reduced operations.  By the time the war ended the tracks and rolling stock were all in need of replacement.&lt;p&gt;The public did not love streetcars for many reasons.  The ride was rough, they were boiling in the summer and freezing in the winter.  They forced all manner of people into close quarters with one another.  Insufficient capacity meant it was not unusual for riders to cling to the sides of cars where that was possible.&lt;p&gt;When freeways and buses were presented as an alternative the public embraced building new infrastructure over rebuilding the old.  Part of that is because the downsides had not yet become clear.&lt;p&gt;Blaming some corporate bogeyman is always tempting but does not change the facts.  The streetcars were replaced because they fell out of favor with the public who wanted to try the new and shiny thing.</text></item></parent_chain><comment><author>jimkleiber</author><text>I dunno, I&amp;#x27;m starting to see the world as more and more complex (aka many inputs contribute to many outputs) and yet maybe too complex for us as humans so we latch onto one input causing one output.&lt;p&gt;I see lots of side road construction in the northern Detroit suburbs, the interstates have been under major construction for at least 2-3 years, and overall, it seems as if there&amp;#x27;s lots of construction. Is it from Whitmer? From the feds? From local cities? I don&amp;#x27;t know, probably a combination of all three and more.&lt;p&gt;Same with why the street cars disappeared. I think our anger&amp;#x2F;fear can make us think it was one and only one group or person who made such things happen, I just think that&amp;#x27;s probably a subjective perspective more than an objective reality.&lt;p&gt;Edit: also I hadn&amp;#x27;t heard of Whitmer giving money to GM, could you share a link about that? All I can find is that she helped GM make their own $7B investment in Michigan.</text></comment>
<story><title>General Motors Streetcar Conspiracy</title><url>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_conspiracy</url></story><parent_chain><item><author>rmason</author><text>My father frequently told me the story of mass transit in Detroit.  He was a fan of the interurbans which were street cars that travelled between cities, some of them fifty miles from Detroit.  Cars and later freeways totally killed off the interurbans.  In fact freeways killed off passenger trains as well.&lt;p&gt;But streetcars still thrived in Detroit.  You could get anywhere with them and even in the car capital of the world people went without them.  But then in a flash they were gone.  My father was a life long believer in the so called conspiracy.&lt;p&gt;He was regarded as a conspiracy theorist.  As a kid I wished he&amp;#x27;d just stop talking about it.  But then as a young adult the proof started coming out that maybe he was right all along.  But now with a big media push it&amp;#x27;s going the other way.  I know one thing in Michigan the politicians go along with whatever GM wants, always.&lt;p&gt;Michigan has some of the worst roads in America while at the same time having the largest gas taxes.  Yet when billions of dollars became available as a result of COVID what did the governor do who ran on the slogan, &amp;#x27;fix the damn roads&amp;#x27;?  She gave the money to GM for battery plants!  This Wikipedia page just looks like more spin to me.</text></item><item><author>m0llusk</author><text>This is false, revisionist history.  During the war maintenance was deferred and many operators either went bankrupt or dramatically reduced operations.  By the time the war ended the tracks and rolling stock were all in need of replacement.&lt;p&gt;The public did not love streetcars for many reasons.  The ride was rough, they were boiling in the summer and freezing in the winter.  They forced all manner of people into close quarters with one another.  Insufficient capacity meant it was not unusual for riders to cling to the sides of cars where that was possible.&lt;p&gt;When freeways and buses were presented as an alternative the public embraced building new infrastructure over rebuilding the old.  Part of that is because the downsides had not yet become clear.&lt;p&gt;Blaming some corporate bogeyman is always tempting but does not change the facts.  The streetcars were replaced because they fell out of favor with the public who wanted to try the new and shiny thing.</text></item></parent_chain><comment><author>7speter</author><text>&amp;gt;Yet when billions of dollars became available as a result of COVID what did the governor do who ran on the slogan, &amp;#x27;fix the damn roads&amp;#x27;? She gave the money to GM for battery plants!&lt;p&gt;I understand the discontent, but the logic seems to follow. Assuming you have Michiganders working in the battery plants, they get paid producing batteries, and then taxed by the state. The taxes pay for the roads, and workers can buy homes and other things while remaining in Michigan (flight seems to be a bit of a crisis in Detroit, last I read). And the cycle, ideally, repeats year after year.</text></comment>