<story><title>An F-22 test pilot on the Raptor&apos;s flight control system</title><url>https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/34762/this-lecture-by-an-f-22-test-pilot-on-the-raptors-flight-control-system-is-bonkers</url></story><parent_chain><item><author>stouset</author><text>This 100%. While really cool demonstrations, the utility of these in a fight is virtually nonexistent. Any air-to-air engagements these days are inevitably BVR (beyond visual range) encounters, where aircraft fire missiles at one-another from extreme ranges. This type of maneuverability has no use whatsoever in such a scenario.&lt;p&gt;If all of the long-range missiles fail to neutralize one side of the other and both forces opt to continue the engagement, you get to WVR (within visual range) where infrared missiles and—once those are spent—guns are employed. There &lt;i&gt;could&lt;/i&gt; be opportunities here where such a trick might be useful, but only in a 1v1 scenario. For any case where you might have two or more enemies to deal with, such an abrupt loss of energy is suicide. And if you’re on the side with superior numbers, the odds are overwhelmingly in your favor with little chance of you being defensive in the first place. And in the 1v1 scenario, modern infrared missiles like the AIM-9x (which are effective even when launched at frankly ridiculous off-boresight angles) make such a maneuver suicide as well.&lt;p&gt;So it might, &lt;i&gt;might&lt;/i&gt; be useful if: both sides empty their long&amp;#x2F;medium-range radar-guided missiles at one-another, only two combatants remain, neither decides to bug out, the aggressor empties their IR missiles unsuccessfully, and the defensive craft is imminently going to be within the weapon employment zone for the bandit’s cannon… &lt;i&gt;then&lt;/i&gt; this might be a Hail Mary to force the aggressor to overshoot so you can turn the tables. But having bled all your energy, you’re going to get at most one shot before you’re back to simply trying to survive.</text></item><item><author>scarier</author><text>To add on, supermaneuverabillity looks really cool and is an impressive technical achievement for sure, but its utility in combat (at least for the time being) is likely low to negative. Among other reasons, the more players in a fight, the less anyone can afford to sell all their energy for a shot opportunity--even if it works, it leaves them extremely vulnerable.</text></item><item><author>sandworm101</author><text>&amp;gt;&amp;gt; is needed to make the Raptor&amp;#x27;s super maneuverability a reality.&lt;p&gt;The term is &amp;quot;Supermaneuverability&amp;quot;... all one word.  This is characterized as post-stall, sometimes called &amp;quot;non-aerodynamic&amp;quot; controlled flight.  In short, it means the aircraft remains under pilot control even after the flow has separated from the wing (aka a stall).&lt;p&gt;The 22 is not considered supermaneuverable by many.  It can use thrust vectoring and some fly-by-wire tricker to ape supermaneuverability but it pales in comparison to many russian aircraft.  The 22&amp;#x27;s wing becomes very unpredictable in stall, hence the need for all the fly by wire.  It was meant for flying fast in a strait line, and for stealth.  It was never meant for things like Kobras or Kulbits.  That it could eventually do them was an afterthought.  The Russian aircraft have wings designed for slow speed&amp;#x2F;high AOA maneuverability.&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&amp;#x2F;wiki&amp;#x2F;Kulbit&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&amp;#x2F;wiki&amp;#x2F;Kulbit&lt;/a&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.youtube.com&amp;#x2F;watch?v=Jks6TTFsglk&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.youtube.com&amp;#x2F;watch?v=Jks6TTFsglk&lt;/a&gt;&lt;p&gt;Kulbit &amp;#x2F; Chakra at about 05:20 and again at 06:20.  Note how slow&amp;#x2F;tight the show is.  An f-22 could never perform repeated maneuvers like this in such a confined space.</text></item></parent_chain><comment><author>Firehawke</author><text>Most fights will inevitably go from BVR to WVR-- ECM is continually in a war of escalation with munitions and ECM is almost always ahead.</text></comment>
<story><title>An F-22 test pilot on the Raptor&apos;s flight control system</title><url>https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/34762/this-lecture-by-an-f-22-test-pilot-on-the-raptors-flight-control-system-is-bonkers</url></story><parent_chain><item><author>stouset</author><text>This 100%. While really cool demonstrations, the utility of these in a fight is virtually nonexistent. Any air-to-air engagements these days are inevitably BVR (beyond visual range) encounters, where aircraft fire missiles at one-another from extreme ranges. This type of maneuverability has no use whatsoever in such a scenario.&lt;p&gt;If all of the long-range missiles fail to neutralize one side of the other and both forces opt to continue the engagement, you get to WVR (within visual range) where infrared missiles and—once those are spent—guns are employed. There &lt;i&gt;could&lt;/i&gt; be opportunities here where such a trick might be useful, but only in a 1v1 scenario. For any case where you might have two or more enemies to deal with, such an abrupt loss of energy is suicide. And if you’re on the side with superior numbers, the odds are overwhelmingly in your favor with little chance of you being defensive in the first place. And in the 1v1 scenario, modern infrared missiles like the AIM-9x (which are effective even when launched at frankly ridiculous off-boresight angles) make such a maneuver suicide as well.&lt;p&gt;So it might, &lt;i&gt;might&lt;/i&gt; be useful if: both sides empty their long&amp;#x2F;medium-range radar-guided missiles at one-another, only two combatants remain, neither decides to bug out, the aggressor empties their IR missiles unsuccessfully, and the defensive craft is imminently going to be within the weapon employment zone for the bandit’s cannon… &lt;i&gt;then&lt;/i&gt; this might be a Hail Mary to force the aggressor to overshoot so you can turn the tables. But having bled all your energy, you’re going to get at most one shot before you’re back to simply trying to survive.</text></item><item><author>scarier</author><text>To add on, supermaneuverabillity looks really cool and is an impressive technical achievement for sure, but its utility in combat (at least for the time being) is likely low to negative. Among other reasons, the more players in a fight, the less anyone can afford to sell all their energy for a shot opportunity--even if it works, it leaves them extremely vulnerable.</text></item><item><author>sandworm101</author><text>&amp;gt;&amp;gt; is needed to make the Raptor&amp;#x27;s super maneuverability a reality.&lt;p&gt;The term is &amp;quot;Supermaneuverability&amp;quot;... all one word.  This is characterized as post-stall, sometimes called &amp;quot;non-aerodynamic&amp;quot; controlled flight.  In short, it means the aircraft remains under pilot control even after the flow has separated from the wing (aka a stall).&lt;p&gt;The 22 is not considered supermaneuverable by many.  It can use thrust vectoring and some fly-by-wire tricker to ape supermaneuverability but it pales in comparison to many russian aircraft.  The 22&amp;#x27;s wing becomes very unpredictable in stall, hence the need for all the fly by wire.  It was meant for flying fast in a strait line, and for stealth.  It was never meant for things like Kobras or Kulbits.  That it could eventually do them was an afterthought.  The Russian aircraft have wings designed for slow speed&amp;#x2F;high AOA maneuverability.&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&amp;#x2F;wiki&amp;#x2F;Kulbit&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&amp;#x2F;wiki&amp;#x2F;Kulbit&lt;/a&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.youtube.com&amp;#x2F;watch?v=Jks6TTFsglk&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.youtube.com&amp;#x2F;watch?v=Jks6TTFsglk&lt;/a&gt;&lt;p&gt;Kulbit &amp;#x2F; Chakra at about 05:20 and again at 06:20.  Note how slow&amp;#x2F;tight the show is.  An f-22 could never perform repeated maneuvers like this in such a confined space.</text></item></parent_chain><comment><author>sandworm101</author><text>Yes but to win the fight first you have to get &lt;i&gt;to&lt;/i&gt; the fight.  These low-speed abilities mean russian aircraft can operate from much shorter&amp;#x2F;poorer strips than western jets. They are the product of a different mindset, a more defensive strategy.   I doubt the f22 has ever touched grass.</text></comment>