<story><title>Made in China, Exported to the World: The Surveillance State</title><url>https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/24/technology/ecuador-surveillance-cameras-police-government.html</url></story><parent_chain><item><author>Cyph0n</author><text>I know many from various Middle Eastern countries who share a similar viewpoint.&lt;p&gt;As an Arab myself, I see it as nothing more than a defeatist attitude that is typically held by those who have enough money and connections (typically upper class).&lt;p&gt;Safety and democracy can coexist and are not mutually exclusive as you claim. The safest countries in the world are democracies last I checked.&lt;p&gt;Democracy is not only about “abstract notions of liberty”, but also (and more importantly) about justice and equality for all. When these “lesser-educated” people are held in prison without trial for watching the wrong Youtube video or practicing the wrong religion, they also realize this fact.</text></item><item><author>throwanon</author><text>I grew up in a third-world country, and I&amp;#x27;ve noticed a palpable shift in the moods of my educated, middle-class friends and family back home.&lt;p&gt;People in many third-world countries have been fed the line that democracy is the correct form of government. 
This isn&amp;#x27;t accidental: the soft power of Hollywood and the myth of American exceptionalism have been powerful incentives to have faith in the ability of democratic institutions to improve lives: it&amp;#x27;s an odd form of cargo-cultism, and if you are a believer in freedom and democracy, a &amp;quot;helpful delusion&amp;quot;. The educated elites in third world democracies have recoiled from the notion of authoritarianism, and from the idea of having every aspect of their lives surveilled for safety.&lt;p&gt;Political events in the US, the rise of social media, and the risks of virality unexpectedly unleashing mob chaos have made them a lot more wary. Openness and the exchange of ideas exposes the worst of human nature: the trolls whose ideas are magnified by algorithms seeking to capture attention. The propagandists and bots with their massive reach are noticed by educated people, who can see how powerless or unwilling social networks and governments are to stop them. It doesn&amp;#x27;t matter whether the propagandists succeed or not-their mere unfettered existence is enough to disturb people.&lt;p&gt;With the weakening of democratic norms, other options are suddenly back on the table. As people  have theoretically become freer, they seem to seek more security. Blanketing a city with CCTV seems to be a pragmatic trade-off for personal safety. The censorship of China seems to be attractive because of the endless hateful noise of social media, the orderliness of having criminals removed from society permanently via the death penalty suddenly seems attractive. The lesser-educated never really cared for abstract notions of liberty anyway. In short, the authoritarian surveillance state is an increasingly attractive proposition to large swathes of humanity.</text></item></parent_chain><comment><author>njepa</author><text>While I agree with your overall point, I am not sure I would attribute defeatism to the rest of the world so much as the West. It is the West that is set to remove any form of commonality and turn to a state of legalized corruption and nepotism. The Chinese, Russians and Arabs are just copying the West. They are the ones getting the high-rises, roads and subways. And people are actually seeing progress.&lt;p&gt;If the West ever returns to the idea of democratic society where everyone should have access to education, housing and good working conditions. Where we run our countries, our infrastructure and invest in scientific progress together. And where we believe that running businesses in line with the values of society is better. Then they would want democracy as well.</text></comment>
<story><title>Made in China, Exported to the World: The Surveillance State</title><url>https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/24/technology/ecuador-surveillance-cameras-police-government.html</url></story><parent_chain><item><author>Cyph0n</author><text>I know many from various Middle Eastern countries who share a similar viewpoint.&lt;p&gt;As an Arab myself, I see it as nothing more than a defeatist attitude that is typically held by those who have enough money and connections (typically upper class).&lt;p&gt;Safety and democracy can coexist and are not mutually exclusive as you claim. The safest countries in the world are democracies last I checked.&lt;p&gt;Democracy is not only about “abstract notions of liberty”, but also (and more importantly) about justice and equality for all. When these “lesser-educated” people are held in prison without trial for watching the wrong Youtube video or practicing the wrong religion, they also realize this fact.</text></item><item><author>throwanon</author><text>I grew up in a third-world country, and I&amp;#x27;ve noticed a palpable shift in the moods of my educated, middle-class friends and family back home.&lt;p&gt;People in many third-world countries have been fed the line that democracy is the correct form of government. 
This isn&amp;#x27;t accidental: the soft power of Hollywood and the myth of American exceptionalism have been powerful incentives to have faith in the ability of democratic institutions to improve lives: it&amp;#x27;s an odd form of cargo-cultism, and if you are a believer in freedom and democracy, a &amp;quot;helpful delusion&amp;quot;. The educated elites in third world democracies have recoiled from the notion of authoritarianism, and from the idea of having every aspect of their lives surveilled for safety.&lt;p&gt;Political events in the US, the rise of social media, and the risks of virality unexpectedly unleashing mob chaos have made them a lot more wary. Openness and the exchange of ideas exposes the worst of human nature: the trolls whose ideas are magnified by algorithms seeking to capture attention. The propagandists and bots with their massive reach are noticed by educated people, who can see how powerless or unwilling social networks and governments are to stop them. It doesn&amp;#x27;t matter whether the propagandists succeed or not-their mere unfettered existence is enough to disturb people.&lt;p&gt;With the weakening of democratic norms, other options are suddenly back on the table. As people  have theoretically become freer, they seem to seek more security. Blanketing a city with CCTV seems to be a pragmatic trade-off for personal safety. The censorship of China seems to be attractive because of the endless hateful noise of social media, the orderliness of having criminals removed from society permanently via the death penalty suddenly seems attractive. The lesser-educated never really cared for abstract notions of liberty anyway. In short, the authoritarian surveillance state is an increasingly attractive proposition to large swathes of humanity.</text></item></parent_chain><comment><author>0815test</author><text>The thing that makes authoritarianism superficially attractive in the Middle East is the absolute lack of anything even loosely resembling civil-society institutions of the sorts that are ubiquitous in Western societies.  Why allow basic freedoms when the people aren&amp;#x27;t going to use them for the good of society? It&amp;#x27;s a vicious cycle and a very thorny issue to address.&lt;p&gt;Ironically enough, the &lt;i&gt;closest&lt;/i&gt; thing these folks get to actual civil society, is their religious institutions - the mosques, the madrassas and so forth.  This also makes Islamic fundamentalism a lot more seductive to them than it might otherwise be, because in many ways they experience religion as the &lt;i&gt;best&lt;/i&gt; working, &lt;i&gt;least&lt;/i&gt; corrupt, etc. part of their society, and they naturally seek something that can replicate that &lt;i&gt;relative&lt;/i&gt; openness and lack of corruption across the board.</text></comment>