2008/08/16/#ubuntu-ops.txt

[00:13] <Myrtti> I've died and gone to heaven. Really. Sheets in hotel beds...
[00:13] <Myrtti> Ahh.
[00:13] <nickrud> no sheets at home?
[00:14]  * Flannel thinks Myrtti must sleep on cardboard boxes at home.
[00:15] <nickrud> nah, probably guinea pig hides (the dark secret)
[00:16] <jussi01> hehe
[00:34] <Myrtti> I do have sheets at home, but none of this quality.
[00:34] <Myrtti> and duvets don't actually compare either.
[00:42] <Mez> Myrtti, go buy egyptian cotton with a high thread coung
[00:42] <Mez> cont *
=== Martinp23 is now known as martinp23
[02:50] <quentusrex> testme?
[02:51] <quentusrex> << test me >>
[02:51] <quentusrex> test me
[02:51] <quentusrex> help?
[02:52] <Flannel> quentusrex: You should do it in the other channel
[02:54] <quentusrex> thanks flannel, but I did... and nothing happened except that I received the malformed packets. But I didn't get disconnected....
[02:55] <bazhang> try now quentusrex
[02:56] <bazhang> quentusrex, please part from here as there is a no idle policy (see /topic)
[02:56] <quentusrex> ok
[03:36] <elkbuntu> quiet caturday
[03:40] <Flannel> That's because its friday.
[03:42] <ubottu> zcat[1] called the ops in #ubuntu (master_ getting a bit irritating)
[04:07] <bazhang> getting a bit irritating? haha
[04:21] <elkbuntu> Flannel, not here it isnt
[04:22] <elkbuntu> it's 1pm on caturday
[04:22] <Flannel> elkbuntu: You're crazy.
[04:22] <elkbuntu> no, just living in the future
[04:22] <Flannel> Mmmm, you obviously control one point twenty one gigawatts.
=== martinp23 is now known as Martinp23
[04:28] <elkbuntu> hmmm... <FloodBot1> Clubuntu (*!*@adsl-75-57-189-206.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net) is being let into #ubuntu from a gateway
[04:34] <Flannel> Again?
[04:35] <Flannel> moo_cow: How can we help you?
[05:53] <Myrtti> oy. headache
[07:59] <xgfhsdgfhsd> I have a complaint regarding a translator that is making false translations
[08:25] <ubottu> In ubottu, Bodsda|Away said: !punctuation is Please try and use correct punctuation in your posts. It makes things alot easier to read when it's neat. Thankyou
[08:26] <ubottu> In ubottu, Bodsda|Away said: !ot is This is the Ubuntu support channel, please dont use this channel for general chit chat. Try #ubuntu-offtopic
[08:31] <Myrtti> nöf
[08:44] <Flannel> How can we help you Bodsda?
[08:47] <Bodsda> Flannel, i sent in 2 or three factoid changes which i wanted to talk about, ive been in here 5 or 6 times to ask to have them changed, i never get an answer, yes or no
[08:47] <Flannel> Bodsda: offtopic is used in a number of channels, making it specific to #ubuntu isn't really as beneficial as it seems.  Also, if someone isn't "getting" the factoid, just explain it.
[08:48] <ubottu> Lynoure called the ops in #ubuntu-offtopic ()
[08:48] <Bodsda> Flannel, The problem is it doesnt at all convey any signs that the person reading it is being offtopic, its more of a channel list
[08:49] <Flannel> Bodsda: Most people get it when you're addressing them with it, and again, there's nothing wrong with typing something out explaining it if they're not understanding.
[08:49] <Flannel> Factoids aren't supposed to replace actual interaction afterall.
[08:49] <Bodsda> Flannel, i thought one of the points of having an off topic factoid was so we didnt have to keep typing it to people
[08:50] <Bodsda> it is one of the most commonly used factoids, which no longer has any meaning
[08:50] <Flannel> Bodsda: I've said it a few times already: the current factoid is sufficient for most people.
[08:51] <Bodsda> Flannel, what is it sufficient at? It certainly does not display to the intended person that s/he is being offtopic
[08:52] <Flannel> Bodsda: Yeah it does.  If I say "Bodsda, wine support is in #winehq" most people would think "oh, hey, maybe I should go to #winehq"
[08:53] <Bodsda> Flannel, yes, but if i say "Hey flannel, #ubuntu is for support, #ubuntu-offtopic is for chat and #ubuntu+1 is for the next release of ubuntu. Welcome!         That doesnt tell them that they are being offtopic, especially if it is an irc first-timer
[08:54] <Flannel> Bodsda: If it is so broken, why does it work most of the time?
[08:54] <Bodsda> Flannel, I never said it was 'broken' I said it does not convey to the user that s/he is being off topic
[09:06] <elkbuntu> Bodsda, it people are not so stupid they cannot figure that talkign about their dog is not support
[09:06] <elkbuntu> s/it//
[09:06] <Bodsda> I fail to see how that is relevant to the factoid being of little help elkbuntu
[09:07] <elkbuntu> Bodsda, i do. since they are not stupid, they do figure out that it's directed at them, and they do move to the appropriate area
[09:08] <Bodsda> elkbuntu, from experience, this is not the case 100% of the time, wheras with the old factoid, not only did they know about the offtopic channel, they also new that they should go there and stop chit chatting in the support channel
[09:10] <elkbuntu> Bodsda, from experience, i do not find the success rate to be any less with the current version.
[09:11] <Bodsda> elkbuntu, So you have no problem with the factoid being pointless, and im wasting my time here?
[09:13] <elkbuntu> Bodsda, i have no problem with the factoid as it's currently effective. if by 'wasting my time' you mean 'i've voiced my opinion' then sure.
[09:13] <Bodsda> I have voiced my opinion and i dont believe it has been takin seriously
[09:13] <Flannel> Bodsda: You're entitled to your opinions, but that's not the case.
[09:14] <elkbuntu> Bodsda, we did take it seriously, but we're not going to change things just because you say
[09:14] <bazhang> holycow, how may we assist you.
[09:15] <Bodsda> I feel i have a legitimate reason for it to change, just because you think it works as well does not change the fact that it does not tell the person that they are being offtopic, it merely points them to a bunch of other ubuntu related channels
[09:15] <Flannel> bazhang: He's redirected here
[09:16] <bazhang> Flannel, he is banned?
[09:16] <Flannel> bazhang: from k-kde4
[09:16] <bazhang> aha
[09:16] <elkbuntu> Bodsda, you've voiced your opinion. you have no further need to be here.
[09:17] <Bodsda> elkbuntu, I'l leave in a second, I would just like to know if you can tell me, what was the reason for the factoid to be changed to what it is now?
[09:18] <elkbuntu> Bodsda, because there are varying levels of offtopic, not just -offtopic offtopic.
[09:19] <Bodsda> elkbuntu, So why not have varying levels of factoid? Why change it for the most gentle and honest case, leaving the more serious ones without a factoid?
[09:19] <Flannel> Bodsda: Not "severity" levels
[09:20] <elkbuntu> +1 discussion is also offtopic in #ubuntu.
[09:20] <Flannel> Bodsda: Talking about +1 is offtopic in #ubuntu, talking about released versions is offtopic in +1, etc.
[09:21] <Bodsda> yes, i dont see your point, talking about someone dead grandmother is off topic but you dont put that in the factoid
[09:21] <elkbuntu> Bodsda, we have given you our reasons. you're not obliged to agree. you have given us your opinions. we're not obliged to agree.
[09:21] <elkbuntu> however taking up extended periods of our time is not considerate.
[09:21] <Bodsda> actually elkbuntu you have not answered my question
[09:21] <jussi01> Could we not just prepend "Hi, you seem to be offtopic - " to the factoid? would that not settle both sides of this case?
[09:21] <Bodsda> Yes thats fine with me
[09:21] <elkbuntu> jussi01, sure.
[09:22] <Bodsda> thankyou jussi01
[09:22] <jussi01> :)
[09:22]  * Flannel thinks its totally unnecessary.
[09:22] <elkbuntu> Bodsda, cya.
[09:22] <Bodsda> your not the frendliest of people are you elkbuntu
[09:22] <Bodsda> Good day
[09:22] <elkbuntu> Bodsda, not when people use this channel for the sake of arguing
[09:23] <Flannel> Nice of him to not listen to anything we said.
[09:23] <jussi01> mergh
[09:23]  * Flannel wouldn't mind just not changing it at all.
[09:23] <bazhang> he means well
[09:23] <jussi01> He does have a point though - we talked about this a week or two ago.
[09:23] <elkbuntu> jussi01, this wont change a thing. trust me.
[09:24] <Flannel> jussi01: I explained it... twice to him fairly well:  people who would figure out one facotid would figure out the other.
[09:25] <elkbuntu> jussi01, he wasnt going to go away until he felt he got his way. since he now thinks all he has to do to get his way is argue with us here until it happens. yay for timesinks.
[09:25] <Flannel> Most people aren't stupid.  Sure, the factoid doesn't cover everyone, but they wouldn't understand anyway.
[09:25] <bazhang> elkbuntu, not fair to lump him with true timesinks
[09:25] <Flannel> bazhang: We said the same thing to him four times, at least.
[09:26] <elkbuntu> bazhang, i didnt say all timesinks were equal
[09:26] <Flannel> and he replied in the same way, each of the four times.
[09:26]  * elkbuntu nods at flannel
[09:26] <bazhang> whatever.
[09:26] <Flannel> He wasn't listening to what we said at all, and wasn't going to consider our opinions valid in the least.
[09:27] <elkbuntu> bazhang, note where he insisted i never answered his question, despite the fact that i did
[09:27] <elkbuntu> it's a technique used by one of our least favourite users
[09:27] <elkbuntu> actually
[09:27] <elkbuntu> it's a common thing to all our least-favourite users
[09:27] <bazhang> bodsda is very active and helpful; to compare him to others of which you refer is not right.
[09:28] <elkbuntu> bazhang, he might be active and helpful, that does not make him any less a time sink, or any less arrogant
[09:28] <elkbuntu> bazhang, persisting like he did here was *not* helpful
[09:29] <Flannel> bazhang: Often times the problem ones are extremely helpful when they want to be/when they get their way/etc.  Not talking about any specifics here, just in general.
[09:29] <Flannel> They aren't mutually exclusive, unfortunately.
[09:29] <elkbuntu> excusing someone's behaviour based on the fact that they help is really not a good idea. else we'd be allowing someone to exploit users in #ubuntu with dcc exploits, providing they help fix a few xorgs or throw out good links
[09:30] <bazhang> the idea that there is one permanent right solution is too inflexible imo.
[09:31] <elkbuntu> bazhang, we didnt say that. we just did not want to regress
[09:31] <elkbuntu> he was asking for a regression
[09:31] <bazhang> as the community evolves, so should some of the ways it is governed.
[09:32] <Flannel> bazhang: How is that relevant here?
[09:34] <elkbuntu> bazhang, sure, then how about we make factoids not work unless they're directed (!ot | bazhang). that will make them have a higher hit rate. if people use the tool right, it doesnt need a token 'you suck' at the begining
[09:36] <bazhang> elkbuntu, I agree that the current ot factoid is good.
[09:37] <Hobbsee> ikonia: was asleep, sorry.  you can try and send a mail to the irc list to see if they'll add more ops, but they might maintain that enough are there.
[09:37] <elkbuntu> i also dont like the idea of us having to agree with everything a user says, just to make them go away. we're *not* customer service. if they need a customer ego boost, they can buy a support contract and have mneptok and magicfab make them feel big
[09:37] <jussi01> hehe
[09:37] <bazhang> elkbuntu, the quibble I had was with calling him a timesink.
[09:38] <elkbuntu> bazhang, when things go circular like he made it go, it *is* a time sink.
[09:38] <Flannel> bazhang: Thats not the first time I've had that offtopic factoid discussion with him here either.
[09:38] <bazhang> Flannel, yes I'm aware.
[09:39] <Flannel> bazhang: So... If he's asking the same thing over and over again, and not paying attention to the responses... how is that not a time sink?
[09:39] <jussi01> err... wasnt this guy banned? or am I way behind... (or just wrong) [Whois] AlmightyCthulhu is [email protected] (AlmightyCthulhu)
[09:40] <jussi01> in #u
[09:40] <elkbuntu> jussi01, i believe so, check the ban list
[09:40] <Flannel> jussi01: No, I looked, he's not.
[09:40] <Hobbsee> and -bugs
[09:40] <Flannel> In a few other channels yes, not in #
[09:40] <Flannel> #u
[09:40] <elkbuntu> hawk him
[09:40] <bazhang> why he is not removed from there I dont know.
[09:40] <Hobbsee> gone
[09:40] <elkbuntu> if he's in -bugs, it's not going to be pretty
[09:40] <bazhang> the things he has done go beyond the pale imo
[09:41] <Hobbsee> elkbuntu: he wasn't active.  i got him :)
[09:41] <Hobbsee> he probably won't be pleasant here, yes
[09:41] <Flannel> hope you have good spam filtering :)
[09:41] <Hobbsee> i do
[09:41] <Hobbsee> i have an @ubuntu.com address, so i need to.
[09:42]  * Hobbsee ntoes that it's outsourced to someone else, too.
[09:42] <Flannel> I haven't gotten anything bad on mine... maybe I'm just not cool enough.
[09:42] <Hobbsee> elkbuntu: he's been s ilent recently in bugs - although i recall speaking to him a couple of weeks ago about how he was not to rant in there.
[09:42] <bazhang> I've noticed a huge upsurge in my spam of late
[09:43] <Hobbsee> bazhang: you recently got membership?
[09:44] <bazhang> Hobbsee, haha no
[09:44] <Hobbsee> bazhang: hmmm.
[09:44] <bazhang> Hobbsee, just loads of spam in my inbox of late directed to me personally including tons of mailing lists
[09:44] <Hobbsee> that's one thing i really don't like about ubuntu - IS's apparent lack of care about spam, and lack of spam filters.
[09:44] <Hobbsee> it seems like some spam filters were finally implemented, though
[09:44] <Hobbsee> bazhang: darn.
[09:45] <Flannel> not on list admins at least.
[09:45] <bazhang> gmail catches almost all though :)
[09:45]  * Flannel prefers to own his own data.
[09:46] <Flannel> and I'm too lazy to set up procmail with spam filters
[09:47] <Gary> heads up on xokadim in #ubuntu - asking for mirc reg code, got banned in ##mirc for the same, then rejoined to swear
[09:47] <Flannel> Im going to kick him if he does it one more time
[09:51]  * Hobbsee wonders what the heck her gmail password is
[09:51] <Flannel> Hobbsee: 1234
[09:52] <Flannel> Hobbsee: If it makes you feel any better, I seem to have forgotten my gpg passphrase.  I even brute forced (I know the phrase, don't know which permutation I used) it for a couple thousand passwords.  Going to end up revoking it.
[09:53] <Hobbsee> ouch
[09:53] <Flannel> yeah, well, luckily I hadn't used it much, so its more of just an embarassment over anything else.
[10:00] <bazhang> just had a chat with Bodsda
[10:00] <bazhang> told him there are many more factoids that need fixing; much more so than !ot
[10:01] <bazhang> seems the best way to get one changed is not to come here and argue about it :)
[10:03] <Hobbsee> hurrah.  gmail has a help thing on how to reset an admin password.
[10:08] <Hobbsee> sigh.
[10:08] <Hobbsee> [19:07] <AlmightyCthulhu> mind telling me what's up your ass?
[10:08]  * Hobbsee turns notifications off, and ignroes it
[10:10] <Hobbsee> nalioth: are you interested i n this guy harassing me in PM?
[10:13]  * Hobbsee ntoes that his current behaviour is indicating that he'll never be in any ubuntu channels, nor perhaps freenode, ever again.
[10:14]  * Hobbsee pokes nalioth again
[10:14] <Hobbsee> yay for personal attacks, or something...
[10:15]  * Flannel votes for the or something...
[10:15] <Hobbsee> Flannel: did you want to see?
[10:16] <Flannel> Hobbsee: not really, no.  I've seen fallout from him before, I can fill in the blanks
[10:16] <Hobbsee> Flannel: ahhh.
[10:21] <jussi01> I love the sarcasm here: http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS7964349324.html
[11:09] <elkbuntu> jussi01, hehe, yeah. as much as i dislike it, who are we to deny the poor kids xp if that's what they choose
[11:10] <elkbuntu> (yes, i know the kids dont choose, but you know what i mean)
[11:10] <jussi01> hrm... is anyone else not able to watch trailers from apple?
[11:11] <jussi01> elkbuntu: yeah. true...
[11:11] <elkbuntu> not sure i actually care to watch them...
[11:11] <jussi01> elkbuntu: hehe, I guessed  someone would come out with that..
[11:11]  * jussi01 is busy procrastinating
[11:12] <elkbuntu> jussi01, olpc's decision to go with the xp deal has caused quite a rift, some of the contributors protesting by leaving the project. however, the olpc's priority is education. if supporting xp means it educates more, then cest la vie.
[11:22] <ikonia> elkbuntu: there is a very very good case of that in the UK at the moment
[11:23] <ikonia> for a major schools project Redhat where brought in for all server and desktop rolls for a major part of the UK (all schools)
[11:24] <ikonia> Microsoft offered server licenses at £80 per server, and desktop licenses at £10 (I think per seat) Redhat had no education discount and wanted £280 per server, per year, and I think it was £80 per desktop per year
[11:24] <ikonia> how can the education sector refuse that
[11:25] <elkbuntu> yeah
[12:07] <elkbuntu> backup in -offtopic please
[12:11]  * Hobbsee belatedly brings out the guns
[12:11] <Hobbsee> ahem.
[12:11] <jpds> elkbuntu: He's gone.
[12:44] <elkbuntu> remind me again who that is?
[12:45] <jpds> ZAKEZ.. or something like that.
[12:45] <elkbuntu> no, i mean who ^^ and ASUS-tek etc
[12:45] <elkbuntu> all the one person
[12:45] <elkbuntu> Myrtti's favourite iirc
=== Jucato_ is now known as Jucato
[13:18] <Myrtti>  
[13:18] <Myrtti> What/who is my favorite? No backlog...
[13:19] <Seeker`> ASUS-tek
[13:19] <Myrtti> Yeah
[13:19] <Myrtti> Is he still as annoying?
[13:42]  * jussi01 does a little "I fixed it" dance :D
[13:43]  * Myrtti sighs
[13:44] <jussi01> Myrtti: hows the head?
[13:44] <Myrtti> Better.
[13:44] <jussi01> you going to write that thing form me soon?
[13:45] <Myrtti> Yeah, when I can be bothered to get my laptop
[13:46] <jussi01> hehe
[13:46]  * jussi01 finally fixed his "large fonts" issue
[13:50]  * Myrtti vanishes
[13:51] <Seeker`> :O
[13:51] <Seeker`> where did she go!
[13:51]  * Hobbsee turns Seeker` into a squirrel
[13:52] <Seeker`> :(
[13:54] <Seeker`> thats not very nice
[13:57] <Hobbsee> you don't like being a squirrel?
[13:57] <Hobbsee> having a big bushy tail is'nt fun?
[13:59] <Seeker`> nope
[14:01] <Hobbsee> but you could thump people with it.  and bite their ankles1
[14:01] <Seeker`> thats what hands and teeth are for :P
=== PriceChild is now known as to
=== to is now known as PriceChild
[14:32] <jussi01> PriceChild: ?
[15:59]  * Myrtti yawns
[16:00]  * jussi01 puts something in Myrtti's mouth and shoves her on a plane...
[16:00] <ikonia> ????
[16:02] <Myrtti> jussi01 you paying?
[16:02] <jussi01> Myrtti: I wish I could...
[16:03] <Myrtti> Yeah... i paid my bus ticket to moms with visa...
[16:03] <Myrtti> I guess I shouldve paid few vodka shots less yesterday
[16:22] <Myrtti> Nom
[16:32] <ompaul> afternoon all - and what a week that was  -- routing from the 5th level of hell, firewalls from the 9th level of hell, xservers from the 2nd level of hell, general other stuff and then some
[16:32] <ompaul> I is still kicking
[16:32] <ompaul> anway I am about to do what I usually do on a Saturday -8 hours on now
[16:32] <Myrtti> Yay
[16:33] <ompaul> i.e. remove bans that I think are ok to remove and over a week old - you know the score at this stage
[16:33] <ompaul>  foo*!*@ if you really want to keep someone out and I will leave the ip that goes within a min of that
[16:33] <ompaul> +- a little
[16:33] <PriceChild> ompaul: -offtopic could probably do with a little too.
[16:33] <ompaul> PriceChild, I only did that last week ;-)
[16:34] <ompaul> I'll have a look
[16:34] <ompaul> PriceChild, ot does not usually get such an increase that is worry some
[16:34] <ompaul> however I will look after this little scroll fest
[16:34] <ikonia> offtopic has been manic this week
[16:35] <ompaul> ahh
[16:35] <ompaul> maybe they heard about my problems and went for it ;-)
[16:35] <ompaul> heheh
[16:35] <ompaul> ikonia, you got your mobile handy?
[16:36] <ikonia> errr hang on
[16:36] <PriceChild> elky suggested removing the emma nick/username bans, leaving the hostmask one, and maybe some other of the wide catching ones.
[16:36] <ikonia> it's somewhere here
[16:36] <ompaul> PriceChild, as in @unafil/emma leave that ?
[16:37] <ompaul> ikonia, it is ringing :P
[16:37] <ikonia> I can't hear it
[16:37] <ikonia> 2 minutes, just looking
[16:37] <ompaul> stopped
[16:37] <ompaul> then
[16:37] <ompaul> PriceChild, ?
[16:37] <ikonia> maybe in the car
[16:37] <ikonia> back in 2
[16:38] <ompaul> ack
[16:38] <PriceChild> ompaul: for now
[16:38] <ompaul> ack
[16:42] <elkbuntu> PriceChild, yep, not to let those people back in, since the bans are still in force, but rather to not disadvantage other people with common names such as emma and joseph
[16:42] <elkbuntu> specifically the idents
[16:46]  * ompaul looks
[16:46] <ompaul> again
[16:46] <ompaul> only saw one joseph
[17:32] <ompaul> ikonia, find it?
[18:38]  * Myrtti sighs
[19:06] <Myrtti> hmmmmmmmmm
[19:06] <Myrtti> 21:06 [freenode] @,- songq [[email protected]]
[19:06] <Myrtti> 21:06 [freenode] @,-  ircname  : 1983
[19:08] <tritium> He has been a bit of a pain.
[19:09] <Myrtti> somehow that ident just strikes me as something that might be in connection to Baron1984 and AlmightyCthulhu
[19:10] <bazhang> think its icesword
[19:10] <bazhang> not angry enough to be baron
[19:10] <tritium> It is.  I +q'ed icesword, so he changed his nick.
[19:11] <tritium> I warned about ban evading, but he calmed down, for the most part.
[19:11] <tritium> What's he doing now?
[19:11] <bazhang> not much
[19:21] <ompaul> 1983
[19:21] <ompaul> .. close to 1984+
[19:25] <ompaul> ip from APNIC
[19:45] <nalioth> should i shut ubot3 down until this wind and storms pass?
[19:46] <nalioth> i've been calling for over a year and half for this problem and the phone company comes out on nice sunny windless days, tests the line, and pronounces "nothing wrong" and leaves
[20:17] <Seeker`> nalioth: High winds drop your connection?
[20:29] <nalioth> Seeker`: old line = shorts
[20:29] <Seeker`> ah
[20:30] <nalioth> i've shut ubot3 down
[20:30] <nalioth> this is just too damned crappy
[20:31] <nalioth> you can see when the storm hit my area from when ubot3 started cycling
[20:32] <nalioth> ubot3 should be back up within an hour or two
[20:32] <nalioth> i'm hoping this crap clears out
[20:46]  * Myrtti sighs
[21:01] <jussi01> nalioth: you sure you dont want to take me up on my offer?
[21:03] <nalioth> jussi01: at this point, i don't have the upload ability to put ubot3 there
[21:06] <jussi01> nalioth: it should only be a small upload - the bot dir should be small, and tarred even smaller
[21:07] <ompaul> !btlogin
[21:07] <ubottu> Sorry, I don't know anything about btlogin
[21:07] <ompaul> @btlogin
[21:21] <Flannel> !lag
[21:21] <ubottu> You have lag, I don't have lag
[21:21] <nalioth> jussi01: it just took me this long to get back here
[21:21] <Seeker`> it would be so funny if the resoponse to that was laged
[21:21] <jussi01> nalioth: hehe
[21:21] <jussi01> poor guy, your connection sucks
[21:21] <nalioth> i'm getting about am minute of internet
[21:22] <jussi01> mrgh
[21:25] <jussi01> stdin: ping
[22:22] <jussi01> that reminds me... did I file that bug yet?
[22:22]  * jussi01 looks
[22:26] <jussi01> hrm... no I didnt...
[22:33] <ubottu> In ubottu, Agent_bob said: so is a caliper,   btw i've done some machinest work...  ;/
[23:58] <nalioth> we will try this one more time
[23:59] <Flannel> You know, I kind of want to know what the caliper comment is in response to