2008/05/02/#ubuntu-classroom.txt

[00:00] <pochu> nealmcb: well, it's hard to choose one (maybe those of mine? ;) so I'll suggest you to look at those maintained by PAPT and DPMT (for modules): http://svn.debian.org/viewsvn/python-apps/, http://svn.debian.org/viewsvn/python-modules/
[00:01] <pochu> nealmcb: you can also checkout the svn repository if you want, svn://svn.debian.org/python-apps/, svn://svn.debian.org/python-modules/
[00:02] <stani> ok, thanks everyone for attending. I propose we close this session now.
[00:02] <sebner> stani: also thanks to you :)
[00:02] <jcastro> thanks guys
[00:02] <jcastro> that was awesome
[00:03] <jcastro> ok, next round of sessions is @ 1500UTC tomorrow!
[00:03] <pochu> Thank you all and good night!
[00:04] <ompaul> thanks pochu
=== jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Open Week | Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | How to ask questions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules | Ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, prefaced with "QUESTION:" |See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/JoiningIn to filter out channel noise |
[15:55] <jcastro> thekorn_: 5 minutes!
=== jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Open Week | Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | How to ask questions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules | Ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, prefaced with "QUESTION:" |See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/JoiningIn to filter out channel noise | "Bughelper - Making Bug Work Easier" - Markus Korn
[15:56] <jcastro> Ok everyone welcome back, we'll get started in a few minutes
[15:56] <jcastro> Please note that there has been a last minute scheduling change: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/
[15:57] <jcastro> We apologize for this being last minute, so to fill in the time we'll continue to discuss bughelper and general Q+A things like 5-a-day.
[15:57] <jcastro> then @ 1700 UTC I will hold a general Ubuntu Q+A session
[15:58] <jcastro> thanks to everyone for showing up, thekorn_ will begin at the top of the hour!
[15:58] <jcastro> as always, feel free to send me feedback at jorge (at) ubuntu.com
[16:01]  * thekorn_ rings the bell
[16:02] <thekorn> Good morning everybody to today's first session of the Ubuntu Open Week.
[16:02] <thekorn> My name is Markus Korn, I'm one of the developers of bughelper and python-launchpad-bugs
[16:02] <thekorn> and I would like to show you how this tools can help you work with your bugs.
[16:03] <thekorn> If you have any questions please ask in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[16:03] <thekorn> If you want to tryout the examples I provide in this session, please install bughelper and python-launchpad-bugs.
[16:04] <thekorn> Some of this examples will only work with the latest version of both tools.
[16:04] <thekorn> To get this version please add
[16:04] <thekorn>    deb http://ppa.launchpad.net/bughelper-dev/ubuntu hardy main
[16:04] <thekorn> to your /etc/apt/sources.list, and replace 'hardy' with the version of ubuntu you use.
[16:05] <thekorn> Then you can should update via 'sudo apt-get update' and install bughelper and python-launchpad-bugs.
[16:05] <thekorn> That's all preparation we need, let's start the session!
[16:05] <thekorn>  
[16:06] <thekorn> So first of all: what's bughelper and python-launchpad-bugs?
[16:06] <thekorn>  * python-launchpad-bugs is a python interface to work with bugs, and blueprints, in Launchpad.
[16:06] <thekorn>  * While bughelper is a suite of utilities that uses python-launchpad-bugs to help you find specific bugs in Launchpad.
[16:07] <thekorn> I'll start off talking about the bughelper suite and then move on to python-launchpad-bugs.
[16:07] <thekorn>  
[16:07] <thekorn> The most important tools in the bughelper suite are buginfo, bugnumbers and bughelper itself.
[16:08] <thekorn> Let's have a closer look at this tools:
[16:08] <thekorn>  
[16:08] <thekorn> 'buginfo' provides an easy interface for accessing information about a single bug for example
[16:09] <thekorn>    'buginfo --title 123456'
[16:09] <thekorn> will return the bugs title.
[16:09] <thekorn>  
[16:09] <thekorn> 'bugnumbers' is designed to return a list of bug based on a query.
[16:10] <thekorn> Let's say you would like to get a list of all bug in ubuntu's 'bughelper' package, run bugnumbers like:
[16:10] <thekorn>    'bugnumbers -p bughelper'
[16:11] <thekorn> As there is also a project called 'bughelper' registered on launchpad.net,
[16:11] <thekorn> you can add the option '-U' to get a complete list of all open bugs in the package and in the project.
[16:12] <thekorn> Other possible options are:
[16:12] <thekorn>   '-D=<distro>' to change the distrubution to look in
[16:13] <thekorn> (note: this distro has to be registered in launchpad.net)
[16:13] <thekorn>   '-P=<project>' to only search for all bugs in a given project
[16:13] <thekorn>   '-l=<url>' to filter buglists based on a given url
[16:14] <thekorn>  
[16:14] <thekorn> So far you get a list of all open bugreports,
[16:14] <thekorn> by adding additional options you can filter this lists further.
[16:15] <thekorn> Some of these filters are are also available via the search feature of launchpad, some of them are not.
[16:15] <thekorn> Some features not in Launchpad are querying on the quantity of duplicates, subscribers, comments, attachments.
[16:16] <thekorn> Or you can query on the date and author of the last comment in a bugreport.
[16:16] <thekorn>  
[16:16] <thekorn> Let me give you some simple examples:
[16:16] <thekorn>  'bugnumbers -P python-launchpad-bugs --reporter thekorn'
[16:17] <thekorn>  'bugnumbers -P python-launchpad-bugs --reporter thekorn --status New'
[16:17] <thekorn> both calls will return you a list of all open bugs in the python-launchpad-bugs project,
[16:17] <thekorn> but the second one will only show you the 'New' ones.
[16:18] <thekorn>  
[16:18] <thekorn> That's no magic so far, let's have a look at a more complex one:
[16:18] <thekorn>   'bugnumbers -l "https://bugs.launchpad.net/~thekorn" --na ">1" --closed'
[16:19] <thekorn> This will return a complete list of all bugs related to me with one or more attachments.
[16:19] <thekorn> This list will also contain closed bugreports
[16:20] <thekorn>  
[16:20] <thekorn> On http://people.ubuntu.com/~brian/reports/ Brian Murray is using bugnumbers to create interesting reports.
[16:20] <thekorn> For example 'yesterday' contains a list of all bugs in ubuntu which where reported yesterday.
[16:21] <thekorn> This reports show you that there are different output-formats, in this case he is using a html-format for the output,
[16:21] <thekorn> there are also options for a 'wiki' and 'csv' styled output.
[16:21] <thekorn>  
[16:22] <thekorn> Any questions so far?
[16:22] <thekorn> <qense> QUESTION: How do you use bughelper on websites? You need to place it in cron?
[16:23] <thekorn> qense, yes, bdmurray is running a cron job to create this pages,
[16:24] <thekorn> but there is also a script called 'bughelper-server.py' in the bzr branch
[16:24] <thekorn> which helps you to organize runs of bughelper and bugnumbers a bit
[16:25] <thekorn> you can get the branch via:
[16:25] <thekorn>   bzr branch lp:bughelper
[16:25] <thekorn> qense, does this answer your question
[16:26] <thekorn> ?
[16:26] <thekorn> ok, let's move on
[16:26] <thekorn>  
[16:26] <thekorn> With 'bughelper', the application, you can search bug reports, comments and attachments for a specific string.
[16:27] <thekorn> 'bughelper' provides you clue based on the search result.
[16:27] <thekorn> Clues are stored in clue files with the suffix '.info' in '~/.bughelper/packages'
[16:27] <thekorn> https://code.launchpad.net/bughelper-data/ is the project in launchpad to organise this clue-files and every member of the bugsquad can commit clue files to the .main branch of this project.
[16:28] <thekorn>  
[16:28] <thekorn> So, what's the structure of such an clue-file?
[16:28] <thekorn> And how does such an file look like?
[16:28] <thekorn> As an example let's take a look at ~/.bughelper/packages/bughelper
[16:29] <thekorn> (you can view this file online at http://tinyurl.com/2zwm7a)
[16:29] <thekorn> Such clue files are in a xml format and can contain multiple clues.
[16:29] <thekorn> Each clue needs at least two elements:
[16:30] <thekorn>    '<contains>'
[16:30] <thekorn> this element contains the actual search pattern.
[16:30] <thekorn> It is possible to add logical elements like 'and' or 'or' to such a node.
[16:30] <thekorn> In the first clue you can see an example of using regular expressions as an search pattern.
[16:31] <thekorn> The 'field' attribute specifies which attribute of an bugreport has to be searched.
[16:31] <thekorn> If you run bughelper and one of the clues in an clue files matches the content of the related '<info>' node will be printed as the output.
[16:31] <thekorn>  
[16:32] <thekorn> As an example, if you run 'bughelper -p bughelper' you will get an output like:
[16:32] <thekorn>   http://launchpad.net/bugs/88102 [[bughelper: Confirmed/Medium],[bughelper (Ubuntu): Confirmed/Undecided]] - tags: xpath or commandline; importance: Undecided
[16:32] <thekorn>  
[16:32] <thekorn> With this I would like to finish the first part of this session about the bughelper tools. Any further questions?
[16:33] <thekorn>  
[16:33] <thekorn> Ok, then let's have a brief look at the underlieing python modul 'python-launchpad-bugs'
[16:34] <thekorn> afflux> you can test very simple searches by using: bughelper -p package -T package  "keyword" "description". This can be very useful for finding duplicates of crasher bugs which differ slightly. I used "bughelper -A -p compiz -T compiz workaroundRemoveFromFullscreenList 'dup of bug 183685'" for finding a lot of duplicates of this bug
[16:34] <thekorn> thanks afflux, good point, forgot to tell you about this.
[16:34] <thekorn>  
[16:35] <thekorn> good, than I think it's time for python-launchpad-bugs
[16:35] <thekorn>  
[16:35] <thekorn> python-launchpad-bugs allows you to access bugs.launchpad.net via python.
[16:36] <thekorn> This python module is used by many tools like apport, ubuntu-dev-tools and of course bughelper and bugnumbers.
[16:36] <thekorn>  
[16:36] <thekorn> Let me give you a short "Howto" on using python-launchpad-bugs.
[16:36] <thekorn> This requires some basic understanding of python.
[16:36] <thekorn>  
[16:37] <thekorn> Let's start a python session and do some general preparation:
[16:37] <thekorn> >>> import launchpadbugs.connector as Connector
[16:37] <thekorn> >>> from launchpadbugs.basebuglistfilter import URLBugListFilter
[16:37] <thekorn>  
[16:37] <thekorn> so far so good, let's get a list of all open bugs in the bughelper project
[16:38] <thekorn> >>> BugList = Connector.ConnectBugList()
[16:38] <thekorn> >>> bl = BugList("https://bugs.launchpad.net/bughelper/+bugs")
[16:38] <thekorn> Each element of this list has attributes like 'bugnumber', 'url', 'status' and 'importance'.
[16:39] <thekorn>  
[16:39] <thekorn> Getting filtered lists is also very easy:
[16:39] <thekorn> >>> bug_filter = URLBugListFilter()
[16:39] <thekorn> >>> bug_filter.add_option("status", ("New","Confirmed"))
[16:39] <thekorn> >>> bug_filter.add_option("importance", ("Medium",))
[16:40] <thekorn> >>> bl = BugList(bug_filter("https://bugs.launchpad.net/bughelper/+bugs"))
[16:40] <thekorn> It's also possible to use any python functions as a filter, but this would go too far right now.
[16:40] <thekorn>  
[16:41] <thekorn> Okay, that's all about bug lists for now, for more information please visit http://tinyurl.com/yrmze9
[16:41] <thekorn>  
[16:41] <thekorn> Now, let's have a look on how to handle bugreports with python-launchpad-bugs:
[16:41] <thekorn> >>> Bug = Connector.ConnectBug()
[16:41] <thekorn> >>> b = Bug(123456)
[16:42] <thekorn> The argument of Bug() can either be a bug number, an url of a bugreport or an element of a BugList-object
[16:42] <thekorn> There is a huge amount of attributes of a bug-object.
[16:42] <thekorn> You can access almost all information of a bugreport.
[16:42] <thekorn> Let's have a look at some examples:
[16:43] <thekorn> >>> b.url
[16:43] <thekorn> 'https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xine-lib/+bug/123456'
[16:43] <thekorn> >>> print b.subscriptions
[16:43] <thekorn> set([<user ken-paulsen (Valyander)>, [...], <user kubuntu-sujee (LinuxLover)>])
[16:43] <thekorn> >>> print b.comments
[16:43] <thekorn> [<Comment #1 by kubuntu-sujee on 2007-07-03 07:17:39 UTC>,[...],<Comment #6 by bersace on 2007-09-30 22:04:49 UTC>]
[16:43] <thekorn> For a list of all attributes of a Bug-object and some examples on using these attributes have a look at http://tinyurl.com/2mboze
[16:43] <thekorn>  
[16:44] <thekorn> So far, we have only read bugs, but with python-launchpad-bugs you can also change bugreports in a very easy way!
[16:44] <thekorn> First of all, only registered user can change bugreports in launchpad, so let's authenticate with our account data:
[16:45] <thekorn> >>> Bug.authentication = {"password":"<your-password>","email":"<your-login-email>"}
[16:45] <thekorn> There is also another possibility of authentication: you can use a mozilla cookie-file (this for example works for cookies created by epiphany or firefox < 3.0)
[16:46] <thekorn> >>> Bug.authentication = "/path/to/the/cookiefile/cookie.txt"
[16:46] <thekorn> If you are using Firefox 3.0 'Bug.authentication' also accepts the new .sqlite type of cookie files.
[16:46] <thekorn>  
[16:47] <thekorn> Now I want to show you, as an example, how to change the status of a bug:
[16:48] <thekorn> >>> demo = Bug(193948)
[16:48] <thekorn> >>> demo.status
[16:48] <thekorn> 'New'
[16:48] <thekorn> >>> demo.status = "Invalid"
[16:48] <thekorn> >>> demo.commit()
[16:49] <thekorn> Until you call the 'commit()'-method all changes are local, with 'commit()' you try to commit all changes you did locally to launchpad.
[16:49] <thekorn> Like this you can for example change the description, add comments or attachments, subscribe to a bug or change the tags.
[16:49] <thekorn>  
[16:50] <thekorn> Any further questions?
[16:50] <thekorn> let's move on
[16:50] <thekorn>  
[16:51] <thekorn> Let's have a look at two more complex examples.
[16:51] <thekorn> You can get this scripts here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugHelper/Dev/python-launchpad-bugs/Examples
[16:51] <thekorn> These two scripts show you how to use python-launchpad-bugs to do things you can't do in launchpad itself.
[16:51] <thekorn>  
[16:51] <thekorn> Let's say you are a developer of an upstream project in launchpad.
[16:52] <thekorn> When you create a package of your tool and build it for ubuntu, bugs in ubuntu are closed by the (LP: #123456) syntax, but upstream bugs were not.
[16:52] <thekorn> The first example also closes this upstream bugs in your project and adds a comment containing the changelog-entry.
[16:52] <thekorn>  
[16:53] <thekorn> I wrote the second example in the last February when we had all these python-central bugreports.
[16:53] <thekorn> This example returns you a list of bugs created in ubuntu after 2008-02-18 and filters this list by the following criteria:
[16:53] <thekorn>   * 'pycentral' or 'python-central' in the content of the bugreport
[16:54] <thekorn>   * an attachment called 'DpkgTerminalLog.gz' which contains 'pycentral' or 'python-central'
[16:54] <thekorn>  
[16:54] <thekorn> As a last example I would like to show you how to create a bugreport with python-launchpad-bugs, it's only one line of code!
[16:55] <thekorn> >>> b = Bug.New(
[16:55] <thekorn> ... product = {"name":"buglog-data"},
[16:55] <thekorn> ... summary = "First part of the session is almost over",
[16:55] <thekorn> ... description = "Ubuntu Open week rocks!")
[16:55] <thekorn> This creates a new bugreport in the 'buglog-data'-project, if you would like to file a bugreport in ubuntu use
[16:55] <thekorn> 'product = {"target": "ubuntu", "name": "my-package"}'
[16:56] <thekorn>  
[16:56] <thekorn> Ok, that's all about python-launchpad-bugs for now, time for some questions!
[16:57] <thekorn> <afflux> QUESTION: why is len(launchpadbugs.connector.ConnectBug()(123456).comments) == 0 for me?
[16:57] <thekorn> <afflux> sorry if that's too much support ;)
[16:59] <thekorn> afflux, I think it's a bug or something :)
[16:59] <thekorn> as the text-mode works
[16:59] <thekorn> will investigate after this session. let's move on with other questions
[17:00] <thekorn>  
[17:00] <thekorn> <qense> QUESTION: Do requests with this package require more or less bandwidth than visiting the website? Or is it the same?
[17:00] <thekorn> That's an interesting question,
[17:00] <thekorn> as LP does not provide a scripting database interface yet,
[17:01] <thekorn> python-launchpad-bugs is doing screen scrapping,
[17:01] <thekorn> this means in almost all cases the required bandwidth is the same.
[17:02] <thekorn> I hope that there will be a public database interface to launchpad.net soon
[17:02] <thekorn> this will make a lot of things easier
[17:02] <thekorn>  
[17:03] <thekorn> <ScottK> QUESTION: Is there a way via pyhon-launchpadbugs I can get back a list of possible duplicates (like the LP web interface does when reporting a new bug)?
[17:03] <thekorn> ScottK, not yet, but I think this is a very good idea, just made a note on my TODO list
[17:04] <thekorn>  
[17:05] <thekorn> Ok, as far as I can see, i answered all questions.
[17:06] <thekorn> Let me end the first part of this session with a few notes:
[17:06] <thekorn>   * bughelper has a separate mailing list, [email protected]
[17:07] <thekorn>   * browse https://launchpad.net/python-launchpad-bugs and https://launchpad.net/bughelper to file bugreports or get the code
[17:07] <thekorn>   * for more information check out our wiki pages at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugHelper
[17:07] <thekorn>   * and last but not least ping me in #ubuntu-bugs
[17:08] <thekorn> please use this if you have any questions,
[17:08] <thekorn> would like to see a certain feature
[17:08] <thekorn> or I you would like to contribute to bughelper and python-launchpad-bugs
[17:09] <thekorn>  
[17:09] <thekorn> Ok, I think that's all for the first part of this session.
[17:09] <thekorn> As jcastro mentioned at the beginning,
[17:10] <thekorn> there were some changes to the schedule, some I will be here for another hour ;)
[17:10] <jcastro> We can continue to answer questions.
[17:10] <jcastro> And we can talk about 5-a-day
[17:12] <jcastro> If you haven't heard about 5-a-day: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/5-A-Day
[17:12] <jcastro> The basic idea is for everyone to touch 5 bugs a day
[17:12] <jcastro> During the Reporting Bugs and Bugsquad sessions Brian and Pedro discussed bug filing and triaging teachniques
[17:13] <jcastro> Note that those sessions will be repeated tomorrow @ 1700 and 1800 UTC
[17:13] <jcastro> With 5-a-day we have provided tools to keep track of bugs you touch
[17:13] <jcastro> which get reported to launchpad, and then we generate statistics
[17:13] <jcastro> Current statistics are here: http://daniel.holba.ch/5-a-day-stats/
[17:14] <jcastro> the stats are broken down into individuals and teams
[17:14] <jcastro> so you can register your Ubuntu Local Team and get tracked via stats
[17:14] <jcastro> So for example, the team I belong to, ubuntu-michigan, has helped triage 1015 bugs
[17:15] <jcastro> This is useful because a) It motivates people in my team to get involved
[17:15] <jcastro> b) It provides metrics so we can measure how effective our team is when it comes to contributing to Ubuntu
[17:16] <jcastro> c) It's nice to be able to say "I helped Ubuntu triage 214 bugs" so I sleep better at night. :)
[17:16] <jcastro> questions so far?
[17:17] <jcastro> < qense> QUESTION: What is the function of a tag?
[17:17] <jcastro> So with the 5-a-day tool you can "tag" bugs with certain tags
[17:17] <jcastro> we use tags to tag bugs that are fixed during a specific event
[17:18] <jcastro> so for example if you participate in a Hug Day, you tag your bugs with the tag for that day
[17:18] <jcastro> this helps us see how effective we are at triaging bugs during Hug Days
[17:19] <jcastro> Note that this is a voluntary project, you don't have to participate, and many people just triage bugs in launchpad without being part of 5-a-day
[17:19] <jcastro> which is fine, but it's nice to get a sample on how we're doing for hugs day
[17:19] <jcastro> Anyone can use the tags in 5-a-day
[17:19] <jcastro> So for example, if you and your friends want to get together and triage bugs
[17:20] <jcastro> We have this: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RunningBugJam
[17:20] <jcastro> So for example you and friends can have a "Quense's Bug Killing Blastorama" bug jam, tag it in 5-a-day, and it will show up in the statistics
[17:21] <jcastro> As you can see in the lp log: https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~5-a-day/5-a-day-data/main
[17:21] <jcastro> People are committing and sending in data all the time.
[17:22] <jcastro> What I do every day
[17:22] <jcastro> is run the applet in my panel
[17:22] <jcastro> and as I triage/report/comment on bugs, I drag the firefox tab into the applet
[17:22] <jcastro> and the applet reports it up to launchpad.
[17:23] <jcastro> Some days I don't get many done, some days I do more than 5, which is fine also
[17:23] <jcastro> Any more questions?
[17:23] <thekorn> the applet does not only work with firefox but also with all other mozilla based browsers,
[17:24] <jcastro> If you do participate, there are tips on the wiki for generating your own email signature in both plain text and html.
[17:24] <thekorn> and the applet does also work in xfce, and there will be a QT version soon
[17:24] <jcastro> So that people know what bugs you've touched.
[17:25] <jcastro> So in short, if you're going to be triaging and other bug work, we encourage you to sign up for 5-a-day
[17:26] <jcastro> and your friends in your local group
[17:26] <jcastro> kubuntu-de.org is leading the pack with 1292 bugs, but hard work will move your team up the leaderboard!
[17:27] <jcastro> Ok, we have 30 minutes left, any more questions on bughelper or 5-a-day?
[17:31] <thekorn> If there are no questions, I would like to point you to two tools which are using python-launchpad-bugs:
[17:31] <thekorn> First one is 'Gnome Launchpad Bugs Applet'
[17:31] <thekorn> https://launchpad.net/lp-bugs-applet/
[17:32] <thekorn> It's an applet based on Chris Lamb's 'debian-bts-applet'
[17:33] <thekorn> It shows you your pet bugs in a list in your gnome panel
[17:34] <thekorn> you can feed this list with tools like bugnumbers or you can get all bugs of an ubuntu hug-day
[17:34] <thekorn>  
[17:35] <thekorn> another one is 'hugday-tools'
[17:35] <thekorn> https://launchpad.net/hugday-tools/
[17:35] <thekorn> this simlifies editing of the hug-day wiki-pages
[17:35] <thekorn> via the commandline
[17:36] <thekorn> so you don't have to edit the wiki pages directly in your browser,
[17:36] <thekorn> the only thing you have to do is:
[17:37] <thekorn>   hugday close 123456
[17:38] <thekorn> to mark bug 123456 in lightgreen and add your nickname to this row on the wiki page
[17:39] <thekorn>  
[17:39] <thekorn> <qense> should we also talk about the requirements for joining ubuntu-bugcontrol?
[17:40] <thekorn> I suggest moving this to tomorrows sessions with bdmurray and pedro_,
[17:41] <thekorn> as I'm definitely not the right person to talk about this
[17:42] <thekorn>  
[17:42] <thekorn> Ok, if there are no questions left,
[17:42] <thekorn> and if there is nothing to add
[17:43] <thekorn> and, of course, jcastro has nothing to add,
[17:43] <thekorn> I think we should all take a small break,
[17:44] <thekorn> and wait for the next session
[17:45] <jcastro> Thanks Markus for showing us bughelper!
[17:50] <thekorn> jcastro, thanks for organizing this week!
=== jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Open Week | Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | How to ask questions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules | Ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, prefaced with "QUESTION:" |See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/JoiningIn to filter out channel noise | "Ubuntu Q+A" - Jorge Castro
[18:00] <jcastro> Hi everyone, welcome to Ubuntu Q+A!
[18:00] <jcastro> A quick introduction, my name is Jorge Castro and I work @ Canonical on the Ubuntu Community team with Jono Bacon and Daniel Holbach. Our collective job is to help the community rock. We do this in various ways, such as organizing things like this OpenWeek and working on processes to grow the Ubuntu community.
[18:00] <jcastro> We had a last-minute schedule change (sorry!) which left this time slot open, so I am going to open it up to general Ubuntu Q+A for this hour.
[18:00] <jcastro> Some caveats: I'm not a developer in the sense of "I hack on code" so I will probably not be able to answer deep technical questions. But I can at least point you in the right direction. If you want to ask questions about how things work Ubuntu in general then I can probably answer those.
[18:00] <jcastro> Please ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, prefixed with "QUESTION:" and we'll begin!
[18:02] <jcastro> < james_w> QUESTION: what's your favourite part of your job? What's your least favourite?
[18:03] <jcastro> Favorite is working with people from around the world who are passionate about Ubuntu
[18:03] <jcastro> I don't really have a least favorite part, I'm an ubuntu addict so it's all good.
[18:03] <jcastro> < musashi> QUESTION: hardy is great. thanks to all. i am curious though if there is any discussion about an add on cd like  edubuntu has.
[18:04] <jcastro> Since Ubuntu ships on one CD there's often not enough room for a bunch more software
[18:04] <jcastro> There are the DVD images which have more stuff on them
[18:04] <jcastro> Things like add-on CDs for more things are possible, I will note it down and bring it up @ UDS
[18:05] <jcastro> < artir> QUESTION: Any plans to give keynotes  by ubuntu core members(Steve Jobs style :p)?
[18:05] <jcastro> We have an event called Ubuntu Live: http://en.oreilly.com/ubuntu2008/public/content/home
[18:05] <jcastro> This is where glossy keynote-style presentations are given
[18:05] <jcastro> < qense> QUESTION: What is the role of Canoncial withing the Ubuntu wordl/community? What does it exactly do?
[18:06] <jcastro> Canonical sponsors Ubuntu and sells accompanying support and services
[18:06] <jcastro> It sponsors events like the Ubuntu Developer Summit, FOSSCamp, and employs people to work on Ubuntu.
[18:07] <jcastro> Since Ubuntu is a community project Jono, Daniel, and I are tasked with keeping that relationship healthy and continue to make it grow.
[18:07] <jcastro> < qense> QUESTION: How does a daily day look like for you? Do you go to office or work at home?
[18:07] <jcastro> Most of us work from home.
[18:08] <jcastro> For me I start work @ 9am, check mail and irc messages and work on my task list.
[18:08] <jcastro> Like most things in Ubuntu, most work is done via irc and mailing lists.
[18:08] <jcastro> < musashi> QUESTION: early in the hardy cycle, i saw discussions about a highly updated look (black and orange theme). The  mockups i saw looked really nice. what happened to that idea? are there discussions about glossing things up in the  future?
[18:09] <jcastro> Ken talked about this in more detail in his session on art: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekhardy/Artwork
[18:09] <jcastro> < michaelramm> QUESTION: What kind of tasks do you have?
[18:10] <jcastro> for me I focus on external developer relations, which means I communicate with upstream projects and help our relationship with them
[18:10] <jcastro> this usually revolves around bug workflow
[18:10] <jcastro> So for example if you find a bug in Evolution and it's an upstream bug, my job is to help make sure that upstream knows there's a problem
[18:11] <jcastro> We use launchpad's linking ability to connect launchpad bugs to upstream bugs, so that both the distro and the upstream developers are aware of the bugs
[18:11] <jcastro> and that patches flow from Ubuntu developers to upstreams
[18:11] <jcastro> I use this launchpad page: https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+upstreamreport
[18:11] <jcastro> The more green on that page in the last few columns, the better. :D
[18:12] <jcastro> < Lardarse> QUESTION: How many people who work at Canonical are involved with Ubuntu, and what percentage is that of the people  that work there?
[18:12] <jcastro> I am unsure on the percentage, but Canonical has been growing recently
[18:12] <jcastro> < michaelramm> QUESTION: Follow UP: What about dholbach and jono areas of responsibility?
[18:13] <jcastro> dholbach primarily works with MOTU, which are our maintainers of the universe section of Ubuntu
[18:13] <jcastro> For example he recently rewrote large portions of the packaging guide to make it easier for new people to understand.
[18:14] <jcastro> And he runs MOTU Q+A IRC sessions on a regular basis, came up with 5-a-day, and generally looks for ways to grow the development community inside Ubuntu.
[18:15] <jcastro> Jono leads the team and generally covers the rest of the Ubuntu community, such as Local Teams
[18:15] <jcastro> < uvok> QUESTION: where can the reweritten packaging guide be found? at wiki.ubuntu.com?
[18:15] <jcastro> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide
[18:16] <jcastro> < pimanx> QUESTION: What do you see as the main problem regarding the growth of the Ubuntu community? Let's say we got five  times as big - couldn't size become a real problem to the community? And how do we address that problem? :)
[18:16] <jcastro> Good question!
[18:16] <jcastro> Scaling can be really hard sometimes, so we are finding ways to deal with the explosive growth
[18:16] <jcastro> one example is that in the past to become an Ubuntu member you had to come to a community council meeting to be approved.
[18:17] <jcastro> That proved to be difficult because with so many volunteers the CC was swamped in these multi-hour meetings, so now we've created regional councils
[18:17] <jcastro> so that should become much smoother
[18:17] <jcastro> Another area where scaling becomes a problem is bugs
[18:18] <jcastro> As we get more users many of them report bugs
[18:18] <jcastro> A good number of these can be triaged or marked as duplicate
[18:18] <jcastro> This is why he have Hug Days and started 5-a-day to help people get involved with the growing number of bugs.
[18:18] <jcastro> Note that I mean "bug" as in "someone reported something to launchpad", not necessarily a software defect.
[18:19] <jcastro> Getting involved with triaging is an excellent low-barrier way to help out, so if you want to get involved you should check out #ubuntu-bugs and their mailing list
[18:19] <jcastro> < pimanx> Question: The regional council sounds like a fine idea, but one of the consequences of that will be further distance  between top ubuntu and bottom ubuntu, and thus have an impact the willingness to contribute and the sense of 'ubuntu -  my project' ?
[18:20] <jcastro> Everything in the community process is transparent and done in the public, like everything else, so I don't see "distance" being a problem
[18:20] <jcastro> Ubuntu membership has always been granted according to contribution, and that won't change
[18:22] <jcastro> *waiting for more questions*
[18:22] <jcastro> < evarlast[jrwren]> QUESTION: As a poweruser & developer, I feel like Ubuntu is "done" in comparison to other distributions and  the windows and mac alternatives. What areas will future ubuntu be inovating in?
[18:23] <jcastro> As with all software, I wouldn't consider Ubuntu "done" at all, there is always new stuff that people want and new hardware
[18:24] <jcastro> Like Ted mentioned in his talk yesterday https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekhardy/DesktopFuture there are plenty of areas where we can innovate
[18:25] <jcastro> Especially as driver support gets better there is plenty of work to be done. :D
[18:25] <jcastro> But if you're happy with Ubuntu how it is now you can stick to Hardy for 3 years. :D
[18:25] <jcastro> < mybunche> QUESTION: Do think the Ubuntu forums do/can serves as an entry to the community world? If so, do you keep an eye on  what's going in there so it can help?
[18:25] <jcastro> I read the forums daily (user number 74!)
[18:26] <jcastro> But they can be overwhelming at times due to the amount of traffic on there.
[18:26] <jcastro> Most developers don't have time to read the forums, so we have forum community people (such as Mike Basinger) who attend our development summits and keep us informed of what's going on in the forums
[18:27] <jcastro> There is definately lot of community work that can be done in the forums
[18:27] <jcastro> such as answering posts that have no response and general help.
[18:28] <jcastro> Plus the forums have a nice cultural twist of funny threads that help break up the monotony of discussing linux all day. :D
[18:28] <jcastro> In think in general information has been flowing from the forums to developers much better than it used to
[18:29] <jcastro> A good deal of "Hey I have an idea" type information is now available via brainstorm
[18:29] <jcastro> http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com
[18:30] <jcastro> In the past there would be tons of threads in the forums about ideas and it was difficult to sort through them all
[18:30] <jcastro> now we have an excellent tool to measure what users would like to see in Ubuntu
[18:30] <jcastro> < qense> QUESTION: Who reviews the ideas at brainstorm and what are the requirements to be a accepted?
[18:30] <jcastro> The ideas from brainstorm are voted by the community.
[18:30] <jcastro> For this UDS we'll be looking at the most popular ideas and discussing them.
[18:31] <jcastro> Since brainstorm is new we really haven't ever taken in this kind of input, so stay tuned into what happens @ UDS
[18:32] <jcastro> To tie into the forums question this UDS we have 23meg (mgunes) attending UDS and he will be posting updates about UDS to the forums.
[18:33] <jcastro> < artir> QUESTION: Why dont you add restricted codecs/wfi drivers etc... in a oficial supported ubuntu, leaving current ubuntu  as Gobuntu?
[18:34] <jcastro> restricted drivers are on the CD already
[18:34] <jcastro> When you install Ubuntu you get a little popup if your hardware requires closed drivers, you click on it and follow the directions.
[18:35] <jcastro> As far as installing them _by default_, it was a concious decision to inform the user and have them elect to install the driver.
[18:35] <jcastro> But yes, they are on the CD (nvidia, ati, etc.)
[18:36] <jcastro> < hardywireless> QUESTION : why does hardy on loading desktop with desktop effects on and nvidia drivers black out for some  seconds? is this due to the image loading, should it be given more proirity on loading ?
[18:36] <jcastro> I am unsure what you're seeing, but generally the entire boot process can be smoothed out
[18:36] <jcastro> currently you get mode switches and all this scary stuff that happens
[18:37] <jcastro> there has been work in the upstream kernel and intel driver to make the mode switching go away but it will take some time to sort that out.
[18:37] <jcastro> I am unsure to as how nvidia will support that functionality
[18:37] <jcastro> < artir> QUESTION: After the booting bar, you have a few secs of a brown screen and then the desktop appears. Any plans on  changing this?
[18:38] <jcastro> Login time is something that we will be looking at during UDS
[18:39] <jcastro> For example I tend to add a bunch of panel applets to my desktop which makes login in longer
[18:39] <jcastro> But tied into the question above, there are many improvements that could be made to the entire booting/login in process, and yes, they're on the radar to fix. :D
[18:40] <jcastro> < rick_h_> Question: when will Ubuntu properties become openid "consumers"? :)
[18:40] <jcastro> Missed that one, sorry rick_h_ \
[18:41] <jcastro> Launchpad now offers openid and there is work in progress to move Ubuntu web stuff to openid. See here: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/9/
[18:42] <jcastro>  < hardywireless> QUESTION: wireless and the ralink drivers seem to be buggy, they fall back to 1bps , and have almost no range ,
[18:42] <jcastro>                        you need to manually fix them , is this being worked on?
[18:43] <jcastro> I would have to read the bug, I am not familiar with ralink drivers
[18:43] <jcastro> the best place to ask that would be on the ubuntu users mailing list.
[18:43] <jcastro> < artir> QUESTION: Why was Ubuntu 8.04 LTS released with so much bugs instead of waiting to solve them?
[18:43] <jcastro> I guess that depends on how well 8.04 is working for you
[18:44] <jcastro> A good number of bugs are unfortunately due to hardware support
[18:44] <jcastro> So for example, my roomates laptop with a broadcom wireless card will probably always be problematic.
[18:45] <jcastro> The other big one I have noticed people having a problem on is Flash sound
[18:45] <jcastro> If you were using the Hardy beta then remove libflashsupport.
[18:46] <jcastro> libflashsupport gets you sound but there were problems with it's stability (It tended to crash Firefox when you went to YouTube)
[18:47] <jcastro> Unfortunately there's not much we can do to fix Flash problems.
[18:47] <jcastro> The other problem I see people facing is having to suspend pulse with skype.
[18:47] <jcastro> So you have to launch skype with "pasuspender skype" for it to work
[18:48] <jcastro> As with Flash, there's nothing we can really do to fix it, if you're depending on Skype then the best thing to do is ask them for better Linux support.
[18:48] <jcastro> < Landon> QUESTION: what's with the changes to all the removable media? Instead of them being at /dev/dvd or /dev/cdrom, they're  now at /dev/dvd1 or /dev/cdrom1, which seems to break a few of the autoplay features
[18:49] <jcastro> I don't know enough about all our HAL stuff to answer this question, that one is better posted to a mailing list, sorry. :(
[18:50] <jcastro> < hardywireless> QUESTION: a funny thing happens with printing on firefox, when you zoom in to the page, making the fonts look  bigger , you cant get the site to be printed and text is missing, unless you know this , you would never have a  clue as where to find this error... I hope that every bug found on Hardy , finds it way to the forums, so we
[18:50] <jcastro>  can read howto fix this, ...hardy bugs found and s olutions..page...:)
[18:50] <jcastro> Firefox 3.0 RC and final will be pushed out to hardy when they are released
[18:50] <jcastro> the best thing to do in this case is to search launchpad to see if it has been reported
[18:51] <jcastro> 10 minutes left, so I guess 2 or three more questions!
[18:52] <jcastro> < michaelramm> QUESTION: I am catching wind that the new pata (ide subsystem) in the kernel has switched to naming ide drives to  sd instead of hd; so what was /dev/hda3 is now /dev/sda3. Any truth to that?
[18:52] <jcastro> That change was made a few releases ago
[18:53] <jcastro> All my stuff shows up as sd*
[18:53] <jcastro> That change was made in the upstream kernel
[18:53] <jcastro> < artir> QUESTION:In what year do you personally think ubuntu will really go mainstream?
[18:54] <jcastro> We'll see, I don't like to make predictions because I'm always wrong, but to me the important thing is continued growth
[18:54] <jcastro> < mybunche> QUESTION: Do you know if there is any progress on getting a standard on linux install files? I think it's one of the  things the Linux Foundation is working on.
[18:54] <jcastro> I have no idea about this, but I am pretty happy with add/remove programs and apt. :)
[18:55] <jcastro> < hardywireless> QUESTION: what would you like to see next in ubuntu? whats your wish for it ?
[18:55] <jcastro> I think I have the same list as most people
[18:55] <jcastro> a) Hardware support
[18:55] <jcastro> b) More applications
[18:55] <jcastro> c) Ease of use
[18:56] <jcastro> ok time for one more question!
[18:57] <jcastro> < mybunche> QUESTION: Apart form Dell, are there anymore OEM's in the pipeline?
[18:57] <jcastro> I don't know, but the list is always growing.
[18:57] <jcastro> I know system76 laptops are popular with ubuntu users
[18:58] <jcastro> Ok, that's it for me
[18:58] <jcastro> thanks everyone for showing up and asking questions!
=== jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Open Week | Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | How to ask questions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules | Ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, prefaced with "QUESTION:" |See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/JoiningIn to filter out channel noise | "Ubuntu ISO testing" Henrik Omma & David Morley
[18:59] <jcastro> heno and davmor2 will be discussing ISO testing, which is a great way to help getting Ubuntu out the door!
[19:00] <heno> hello :)
[19:00] <davmor2> hello
[19:01] <heno> Some of you may have perticipated in ISO testing before the Hardy release
[19:03] <ompaul> woops
[19:03] <davmor2> The basis of the testing team is to get the Ubuntu family out of the door with as few major bugs as possible.
[19:04] <davmor2> The main reason we are here today is that the more tester we have the more bugs get spotted.
[19:05] <davmor2> The good thing is if you can install ubuntu on your machine at home you can test it before releases.
[19:05] <heno> thanks, I was locked out for a second :)
[19:05] <davmor2> There are two main ways to do this one Virtual.  Two on hardware.
[19:06] <heno> We need to both validate the actual CD images, but also search for bugs generally
[19:06] <heno> even though the devel version is used regularly by people, structured testing always uncovers bugs
[19:07] <heno> esp. in features that are not used every day like the installer
[19:08] <heno> To actually contribute productively in the testing crunch you actually need to prepare a bit ahead of time
[19:09] <heno> It helps to have read the test cases and pre-download the ISO images
[19:09] <heno> you then update them with rsync
[19:10] <heno> the images are often re-spun 2-3 times after the archive freezes as bugs are fixed
[19:10] <heno> Most of what you'd need to know is covered here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/ISO
[19:10] <heno> and we hang out in #ubuntu-testing to coordinate
[19:12] <heno> we test based on the cases here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Cases and report results here http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/
[19:12] <heno> Ok, that's a brief introduction, let's open up for questions
[19:13] <ompaul> <hardywireless> QUESTION: i have done some iso testing, and it was great to do, but , having found a bug, i submitted it, and it was worked on, but i could not submit more then one bug report...( as i tested the next daily build the following day )
[19:13] <heno> next
[19:14] <heno> hardywireless: I don't understand why you couldn't submit more than one bug report, was this in Launchpad?
[19:15] <heno> you can only submit one test report for a given test case on a given build, but you can attach as many bug numbers as you need to
[19:15] <ompaul> <hardywireless> QUESTION: iso testing site
[19:16] <heno> if the image had not changed then the original report would still be up and you can edit it to add more bug links
[19:17] <heno> you click the document view icon next you the report
[19:18] <heno> at least I think you can update your own cases
[19:18] <davmor2> hardywireless: The issue here I think is that when a new image is released that becomes the default for tracker.  You can however add comments to the newer version like bug xxxxxx is now fixed etc.
[19:18] <heno> as site admin I can update all cases
[19:19] <heno> davmor2: can you confirm that you can edit your own test case reports?
[19:19] <ompaul> <hardywireless> QUESTION: i also noticed that the http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/ is not always as up to date as http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/daily/current/
[19:20] <davmor2> heno: Yes I edit them regularly to add bug reports.  I tend to put in a note and then write the reports after and add them all at once
[19:20] <heno> that's true. we need to automate the sync there
[19:20] <ompaul> <BonesolTeraDyne> QUESTION: What do you suggest as a minimum amount of time a tester should spend on bug hunting\ testing a build?
[19:21] <heno> sometimes the golden image candidate will be held back to an earlier build on purpose though
[19:22] <davmor2> hardywireless: Also the tracker only kicks in for candidate images and not all daily builds
[19:22] <heno> BonesolTeraDyne: as long as it takes to go through the test case
[19:22] <heno> testing more is of course a bonus
[19:23] <ompaul> Question: If I could put together a package that would allow automated installation for testing purposes, is there any possibility that it could be included in the development versions of Ubuntu (assuming it gets sponsored for main, etc)
[19:23] <heno> in reality we sometimes do quick sanity checks on certain install types or features
[19:24] <heno> ompaul: how automated? not asking for a password? :)
[19:24] <ompaul> heno, I have to ask the person who asked me brb
[19:24] <davmor2> That would be cool.  However sometimes the person doing the install turns up a bug by simply not knowing what to do next :)
[19:25] <ompaul> hardywireless> comment: more of a compliment, as i went to irc ubuntu-testing, the bug i reported was fixed in a few day's just before the release of hardy, thats really great...
[19:25] <ompaul> heno, yes
[19:25] <heno> We are doing some automation of install testing of images
[19:25] <heno> and we also want to automate upgrade testing with a ton of packages installed
[19:26] <heno> there has also been talk of adding desktop automation test scripts to the live CD - self-testing-desktop
[19:27] <heno> but I'm not sure I see the value in just installing a bunch of packages automatically
[19:27] <heno> there are already tools like piuparts, lintian and auto-package-test
[19:27] <ompaul> heno, they would match jane's or john's use case
[19:28] <heno> that install and test packages, but that's in a controlled environment like a chroot or kvm
[19:28] <heno> ompaul: if it's done in a responsible way, then yes
[19:29] <ompaul> heno, vis the source of the question: <highvoltage> for my question, I was thinking more in terms of iso testing
[19:29] <heno> I don't want a package installable from synaptic that when run installs 1000 more packages though :)
[19:29] <ompaul> <highvoltage> so that you could put a bunch of isos (like 20 of them or so) in a directory, and have it all installed in a vm automatically
[19:30] <heno> highvoltage: from Hardy we can do preseeding of the Ubiquity installer as well, which would be one way to automate it
[19:31] <heno> another way would be to set up a way to poke into a kvm or vbox instance to drive it
[19:31] <ompaul> highvoltage> it wouldn't install the packages automatically you would be able to pass a kernel parameter to the boot cd that would automate the /entire/ install process by sending keystrokes to the installer
[19:31] <heno> highvoltage: we would love to do that for Intrepid and help would be great :)
[19:32] <heno> highvoltage: yep, I think feeding input to the installer would be even better than pre-seeding, more realistic
[19:32] <davmor2> highvoltage: it certainly would help take the pressure off installing in vm :)
[19:33] <heno> highvoltage: let's speak more about the details afterward
[19:33] <heno> next?
[19:35] <ompaul> <hardywireless> QUESTION: can there be a way to blacklist drivers , when booting from livecd , for example if it hangs on a such a driver ...
[19:36] <heno> this is not my area, but you can turn of certain things like acpi with kernel parameters
[19:36] <heno> not sure there is an option for every driver
[19:37] <davmor2> I think one of the key things to remember about the Iso Testing Team is that it is ideal for newish users trying to find a way to contribute to Ubuntu.  There is nothing that technical to testing.  If you can install and run a system you can test.
[19:38] <heno> hardywireless: ompaul helpfully refers us to https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BootOptions
[19:39] <davmor2> next
[19:39] <ompaul> hardywireless, that page contains a list for how to launch both an installed system and iso with boot options, generally setting module=no is good but cases may break that mode so I would say check before you jump
[19:41] <ompaul> <hardywireless> QUESTION: how many people are doing iso testing right now?
[19:42] <davmor2> Hmmm tricky question.  Does that include all the users who install or upgrade before the release is out?
[19:42] <heno> hardywireless: there are typically 5-6 people who do a large number of tests and then ~30 who do one test image each or so
[19:43] <heno> there is an overview at http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/subscriptions
[19:43] <heno> next?
[19:44] <ompaul> <hardywireless> QUESTION: whats the next version we can test? :) , and how did you become a tester?
[19:45] <heno> the next sensible version to test is Intrepid Alpha 1
[19:45] <heno> there will also be a hardy update release to test
[19:46] <heno> that reminds me: please run hardy wit -proposed turned on so we can test those updates
[19:46] <davmor2> I started contributing back to Ubuntu by joining Bug Squad.  However with the apport bug reports becoming more frequent it became to complex for me.  So I looked for something else and at the time Heno asked for testers.
[19:47] <heno> (I'm employed by Canonical and started dabbling in QA about a year ago)
[19:48] <heno> I did bug triage first and the coordinated testing for 7.04
[19:49] <heno> more questions?
[19:49] <ompaul> <chipitsine> QUESTION: I noticed ext2 cannot be mounted by LABEL even man page states so in 7.05 <chipitsine> in 7.04 actually
[19:50] <heno> hm, not quite related to ISO testing as such
[19:51] <ompaul> <ted_> QUESTION: Should more emphasis be placed on testing ubiquity because it can't be updated on the CD, whereas all the other apps can be updated post-install?
[19:51] <heno> chipitsine: please file general bugs in launchpad
[19:52] <heno> ted_: it's clearly a major testing target, yes, but from experience we also find important bugs in other things during testing too
[19:52] <heno> but ubiquity really depends on this testing
[19:52] <davmor2> ted_: The same can be said for Debian-Installer on the alternative cds too.
[19:52] <heno> esp. as bugs can be hardware-specific
[19:53] <heno> that's one reason I'm afraid of automating install testing too much
[19:54] <heno> human testing will often find things you haven't scripted for
[19:54] <heno> next?
[19:54] <heno> We'll take one more I think
[19:54] <davmor2> especially if the automation is setup by some one with the knowledge to do the install correctly.
[19:55] <heno> please continue to ask in #ubuntu-testing though
[19:55] <heno> it's often good to do silly things like navigating back and forth in the installer too
[19:56] <ompaul> <ted_> QUESTION: Is there any specific effort to test X configuration on different graphics cards / monitors, since that is often an area of difficulty for many users?
[19:56] <heno> to tease out bugs
[19:57] <heno> ted_: not since the laptop testing program some years ago. clearly something we should revisit
[19:57] <davmor2> ted_: I test on really hardware by choice.  This has a selection of different hardware in it.  The only thing I'm short of is Ati gfx chipset.
[19:57] <heno> we are planning to add hardware profiles to the test tracker so we can see what HW has been covered
[19:58] <ompaul> comment: (mine) the objective is to be a good human and try to create the innovative exception to the expected behaviour - would you both agree
[19:58] <ompaul> i.e. try to break it!
[19:58] <davmor2> Hell yes.  Then report the break :)
[19:59] <davmor2> Especially if it can be reproduced time and time again
[19:59] <ompaul> okay guys thanks for a great session
[20:00] <ompaul> davmor2, heno your mailing list and channel ?
[20:00] <davmor2> channel is #ubuntu-testing
[20:01] <ompaul> davmor2, heno yhanks again
[20:01] <davmor2> list is [email protected]
[20:02] <ompaul> <davmor2> list is [email protected]
[20:02] <rick_h_> am I green for go?
=== ompaul changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: for #ubuntu-classroom is: Ubuntu Open Week | Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | How to ask questions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules | Ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, prefaced with "QUESTION:" |See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/JoiningIn to filter out channel noise |  Running A Packaging Jam Richard Harding
[20:02] <ompaul> yes
[20:02] <rick_h_> cool
[20:02] <rick_h_>  I'm Rick Harding, a member of the Michigan Loco. You can get a hold of me for any questions or whatnot at [email protected] (blog on same site)
[20:03] <rick_h_> I wanted to go over running of Packaging Jams
[20:03] <rick_h_> So first thing, how many of you guys have made a package?
[20:03] <rick_h_> active crown this afternoon
[20:03] <rick_h_> crowd
[20:04] <rick_h_> ok, well the point is that if you've gone through it, you know there's a ton of docs
[20:04] <ompaul> <Syntux> I did for the purpose of learning
[20:04] <ompaul> <BonesolTeraDyne> I have, though only for personal use
[20:04] <rick_h_> and it can be a bit overwhelming at first
[20:04] <rick_h_> I mean, I use Ubuntu and .deb packages because I didn't want to deal with all that compiling, make file, fun and joy.
[20:04] <rick_h_> So Greg (our loco fearless leader) and I were talking one night about how to make this easier and we thought “wouldn't it be cool if we could get an Ubuntu MOTU to teach us?”
[20:05] <rick_h_> Now unfortunately you can't mail order a MOTU.
[20:05] <rick_h_> We tried, but the store was fresh out
[20:05] <rick_h_> We did find a former MOTU (Aaron Lake) to sit down with us and walk us through the start of learning to create .deb packages.
[20:05] <rick_h_> So there's your first requirement, someone that can package, even a little.
[20:05] <rick_h_> Now this is probably the most difficult to accomplish, but the better your mentor the more everyone will get out of the packaging jam.
[20:06] <rick_h_> Places to look for a mentor are local user groups, an Ubuntu LoCo, and maybe even the #ubuntu-motu channel.
[20:06] <rick_h_> side note, I've kind of got this all prepped so if I go to fast let me know
[20:06] <rick_h_> If you can't find someone, you can try to hold it just with the docs. They've gotten much better and the hands on docs (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/HandsOn) are pretty easy to get through.
[20:06] <rick_h_> Once you have someone to show the way, it's time to find the venue.
[20:07] <rick_h_> Good things to look for are plenty of table space for everyone, power, network connectivity, and plenty of beverages.
[20:07] <rick_h_> I'd suggest saving the good ones for a least half way through the jam :)
[20:07] <rick_h_> A great alternative would be if you could get a computer lab with a bunch of live cds. One person in our jam connected remotely to my file server running vmware.
[20:07] <rick_h_> oh yes, snacks as well
[20:07] <rick_h_> pizza delivery works great for that
[20:08] <rick_h_> In our case we had some 8 people at my house. Everyone used my home network and downloaded packages over my cable modem. Most of the packages you need are small and wasn't much of a strain on the cable line.
[20:08] <rick_h_> If bandwidth is an issue, try to provide a debmirror on the local network. https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Debmirror
[20:08] <rick_h_> The mirror will provide the packages to everyone without requiring an internet connection.
[20:08] <rick_h_> Make sure to plan of some people not being up to date. How many of you all run something other than hardy currently?
[20:09] <rick_h_> ok, guess we're all up to date, nice
[20:09] <rick_h_> So we've got our mentor, our network and location, next up we need to do some pre-planning. This should be done with the mentor.
[20:09] <rick_h_> You want to plan out the course of action. Go through the docs and figure out what you want to cover in the time you have.
[20:10] <rick_h_> Just a heads up, whatever time you have, plan on doubling it. I originally planned for a 4 hour session.
[20:10] <rick_h_> After backtracking to get everyone a GPG key, uploading them to LP, signing each other's keys, and getting through things...we had run into 8 hours long.
[20:10] <rick_h_> We didn't cover everything I had wanted to, but in the end we covered a lot of ground.
[20:10] <rick_h_> So for the docs, there are a lot out there and dholbach has done some great stuff in cleaning them up.
[20:11] <rick_h_> If you have lots of time, start out with the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/PackagingOverview and move on to the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/HandsOn and then go through the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Basic
[20:11] <rick_h_> If you're short of time, you should be able to get through the first two docs in a couple of hours.
[20:11] <rick_h_> Go through the docs with your mentor and plan out what you want to cover, and if you can, write out the guide with copy/paste commands.
[20:12] <rick_h_> this makes life much easier for everyone to follow and avoids tracing down typos for hours
[20:12] <rick_h_> people can then copy/paste the guide and take it home with them
[20:12] <rick_h_> You can see how I did this for my Penguicon talk by using the HandsOn as a sample. http://wiki.avwsystems.com//doku.php/linux/packaging/penguicon_2008
[20:13] <rick_h_> At the talk, I hosted it on a wiki on my laptop and had everyone in the room connect to it. This way we can all walk through step by step together.
[20:13] <rick_h_> Our first packaging jam we used gobby over the network. This worked well, but gobby has a few lacking features that make life difficult.
[20:14] <rick_h_> _stink_: yea, I prefer the wiki format
[20:14] <rick_h_> people can still edit the page, or create new pages
[20:14] <rick_h_> but you avoid the gobby issues
[20:14] <rick_h_> like
[20:14] <rick_h_> 1) Copying and pasting is dangerous as people tend to paste over content.
[20:14] <rick_h_> 2) Gobby doesn't have undo...so see
[20:14] <rick_h_> so see 1)
[20:14] <rick_h_> 3) everyone has to install it while running a local wiki just means everyone points their web browser at my IP.
[20:15] <rick_h_> and everyone has a browser so you're golden off the bat
[20:15] <rick_h_> does that make sense _stink_ ?
[20:15] <rick_h_> It's best if you can test out the commands ahead of time to watch for packages that need to be installed, config options changed, and potential issues.
[20:15] <ompaul> <_stink_> rick_h_: QUESTION: First off, thanks for hosting that Pack. Jam. I had a great time. We used gobby to share notes, with mixed results. Do you have recommendations for sharing shell commands/links/GPG key IDs/etc.?
[20:16] <rick_h_> ok, so see above for that one, wiki ftw! and of course dokuwiki is the best
[20:16] <rick_h_> Once this is done, it's really just a matter of going through the material together. Make sure everyone is up to date at all times and if there are any questions that can't be answered, write them down and follow up.
[20:17] <rick_h_> If you have network access try to get some help in #ubuntu-motu. The more you can get done together, the better the jam will be getting everyone started
[20:17] <rick_h_> So this leads us to what should people expect to get out of a Packaging Jam.
[20:17] <rick_h_> First, they should realize they're not alone.
[20:18] <rick_h_> My packaging talk at penguicon was packed. So many people want to learn packaging, but it's a bit intimidating.
[20:18] <rick_h_> I mean there are a ton of rules, docs, new commands, everything must be exactly formatted
[20:19] <rick_h_> I won't try to say it's easy, but with a Jam it's easier to get through things. Almost like a classroom
[20:19] <rick_h_> Second, if you can, try to make it meaningful to the participants. I asked people to bring something they'd like to see packaged, updated, etc.
[20:19] <rick_h_> One guy brought up this xastir package that was out of date.
[20:19] <rick_h_> When we got to talking about updating packages with a new upstream tarball, we use xastir as a second example.
[20:20] <rick_h_> This way, he left with something a bit more real then packaging the hello application
[20:20] <rick_h_> He had a need to learn packaging and when he went home, he could work on that package.
[20:20] <rick_h_> after all, we all want to learn how to package things for some reason
[20:21] <rick_h_> myself I took what I learned and combined with the Launchpad PPAs helped do the first packages for the Gnome Do application
[20:21] <rick_h_> suddenly the user base went boom! People want easy to install applications
[20:22] <rick_h_> I'd like to think the xastir guy would be likely to maintain/update that package in the future.
[20:22] <rick_h_> Syntux> QUESTION: Giving participant the liberty to pick the package would make things harder on the instructor side especially if he's not a MOTU, or there is a magical trick around that?
[20:22] <rick_h_> First, if you can get examples ahead of time the better
[20:23] <rick_h_> we had a few guys bring things, one wanted to learn how to do a meta-package for his work stuff
[20:23] <rick_h_> which we didn't get to and our former MOTU couldn't recall how to do
[20:23] <rick_h_> so there's definitely some practical side to things
[20:23] <rick_h_> but any time you can get someone a practical use for this stuff he'll leave happier
[20:23] <rick_h_> I mean, we all went to school and had to learn a bunch of stuff...but the coolest was the stuff we could use
[20:24] <rick_h_> make sense?
[20:24] <rick_h_> ScottK: definitely. At the time the docs were setup to start with packaging Hello fresh
[20:24] <rick_h_> and it's definitely harder to do
[20:24] <rick_h_> dholbach has done some great work making it a bit different now
[20:24] <rick_h_> the hands on guide, fixing the bug first, is much easier to get into
[20:25] <rick_h_> and I'd definitely suggest starting with those smaller examples before moving up to packaging new stuff
[20:25] <rick_h_> there's a lot more use in fixes/updating vs new software for the most part anyway
[20:25] <rick_h_> So ask people to bring problems. This will definitely add to the amount of time needed, but really adds a LOT to the jam.
[20:26] <rick_h_> so that's about what there to a jam
[20:26] <rick_h_> mentor, people, venue, plan
[20:27] <rick_h_> So let's say you had a jam, make sure to let us know.
[20:27] <rick_h_> There's a bunch of wiki pages for showing you have a jam coming, and telling us how it went.
[20:27] <rick_h_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/RunningPackagingJam add it to the events page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Events
[20:27] <rick_h_> Blog about it coming up and let us know so we can blog about it. We want you to have a great audience.
[20:27] <rick_h_> our first jam was 8 people with only 1 knowing much about packaging and that was about right I flet
[20:28] <rick_h_> felt*
[20:28] <rick_h_> Finally, make sure you follow up.
[20:28] <rick_h_> I know we've planned on holding another jam here soon.
[20:28] <rick_h_> Now that the first one is over with there's a larger pool of people to help run it.
[20:28] <rick_h_> There's also the possibility of having a second “advanced” track for next time.
[20:29] <rick_h_> it's definitely not something that is limited to a one time thing, there's always more to learn/do
[20:29] <rick_h_> So repeat of my email in case anyone needs/wants any info [email protected]
[20:29] <rick_h_> Does anyone have any questions?
[20:29] <rick_h_> kind of ran through that quick...make sense to everyone?
[20:30] <ompaul> <Syntux> QUESTION: Would you recommend any prerequisite to the audience?
[20:30] <rick_h_> hmm, well I made sure I sent out links ahead of time for people to do any pre-reading they could do
[20:30] <ompaul> <Syntux> I'm actually reading up to run a packaging jam but I'm bit afraid of doing so :D
[20:30] <rick_h_> the big thing is that packaging work is terminal work
[20:31] <rick_h_> so make sure people are aware of that.
[20:31] <ompaul> <jcastro> QUESTION: Can you talk about bitesize bugs?
[20:31] <rick_h_> it hasn't been an issue, but some people think the terminal will bite them
[20:31] <rick_h_> bitesize bugs, that's a new packagers playground
[20:32] <rick_h_> sec, let me find the link
[20:32] <rick_h_> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=bitesize
[20:32] <rick_h_> so bitesize bugs are bugs that someone has looked at
[20:32] <rick_h_> and found should be a small quick fix
[20:33] <rick_h_> often you see things like a package is missing a .desktop file
[20:33] <rick_h_> something that's pretty easy for someone learning to package to bite into
[20:33] <rick_h_> so a good follow up packaging jam would be to hold a bitesize bug session
[20:33] <rick_h_> get those guys/gals back together and see if together you can tackle some of those bitesize bugs
[20:34] <ScottK> dholbach has a list of 'really-fix-it' bugs
[20:35] <ScottK> This is a list of bugs that have fixes somewhere, they just need to be brought into Ubuntu.
[20:35] <jcastro> http://daniel.holba.ch/really-fix-it/
[20:35] <ScottK> These are much easier to work on than new packages and let you start relatively small and work up.
[20:35] <rick_h_> RainCT ran a jam. What did you think? Did people get something out of it?
[20:36] <ScottK> You also dono't need to know programming, just packaging since there's already a fix out there somewhere.
[20:36] <rick_h_> great point, packaging != programming all the time.
[20:36] <rick_h_> it can definitely help in some cases, but don't let that stop you from getting involved and learning
[20:36] <ScottK> As a MOTU, I find what we really need is more help making our existing packages better.
[20:37] <ScottK> We'll never package everything, but it's important to work to improve quality of what we have.
[20:38] <rick_h_> any other questions?
[20:38] <rick_h_> Syntux: what keeps you from having a jam?
[20:40] <rick_h_> Syntux: definitely understand with a small user base it's hard to get the knowledge in there
[20:40] <rick_h_> but make sure you check if there's anyone in your area, ask around
[20:40] <rick_h_> in our case I didn't know Aaron our former MOTU
[20:40] <rick_h_> he didn't attend the loco, or even our local LUG
[20:40] <rick_h_> and it was by word of mouth and me asking around if anyone know packaging we found him to help
[20:41] <rick_h_> So hope you see the cool potential. It's a bit of good ole 2 heads > 1
[20:41] <rick_h_> and if you can get 8 guys together, there's now a lot more people in the area to help with things
[20:42] <rick_h_> I ran into a guy that attended the first jam and he was working on getting together with his fav software project to help them and their ubuntu packaging
[20:42] <rick_h_> so it's very cool to see stuff like this pay off down the road
[20:43] <rick_h_> and hey, we need more balloons on the map: http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=108939198110825717970.000446fc38319d9edd513&z=3
[20:43] <ompaul> Syntux> rick_h_, you just inspired me; I'll try to get some soon-to-graduate CS students to get them package their projects.
[20:44] <rick_h_> Syntux: well take ScottK's advice though. Definitely start with existing stuff
[20:44] <rick_h_> MUCH MUCH easier
[20:44] <rick_h_> that's why the newer hands on docs are so great
[20:44] <rick_h_> people want to feel like they made progress quickly
[20:44] <rick_h_> Rock On balloons!
[20:45] <rick_h_> well, if you want to give it a shot, feel free to ask me anything
[20:45] <rick_h_> most of the docs are good at pointing you where to go
[20:48] <rick_h_> so who's next in this fine openweek?
[20:48] <jcastro> next up is xivulon with Wubi, in about 12 minutes!
[20:49] <ompaul> tea break?
[20:49] <jcastro> yep!
[20:49] <jcastro> unless anyone has more questions for rick_h_?
=== jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Open Week | Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | How to ask questions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules | Ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, prefaced with "QUESTION:" |See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/JoiningIn to filter out channel noise | "Wubi" - Agostino Russo
[20:54] <jcastro> Ok, about 5 minutes until "Wubi" with Agostino Russo
[21:00] <jcastro> ok xivulon, take it away!
[21:00] <xivulon> thanks jcastro
[21:00] <xivulon> Hi all,
[21:01] <xivulon> I am Agostino Russo,  some of you may know me as ago
[21:01] <xivulon> If it is ok, I would like to start with an introduction to Wubi, a few insights, some explanation on how it works and how to contribute.
[21:01] <xivulon> Then we move to Q&A
[21:01] <xivulon> To get some basic information on Wubi you might also be interested in these 2 links:
[21:01] <xivulon> http://wubi-installer.org/faq.php
[21:01] <xivulon> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/WubiGuide
[21:02] <xivulon> As you may know, Wubi allows users to install Ubuntu into a file within a Windows filesystem.
[21:02] <xivulon> The aim driving the project has always been to make Wubi one of the easiest OS installers ever
[21:02] <xivulon> in order to expand the user base by reaching out to new users
[21:03] <xivulon> and slash urban legends about Linux "difficulty"
[21:03] <xivulon> There might be some road to cover still, but I think we are on track :)
[21:03] <xivulon> And the community has been Key and I would like to spend a couple of words on that!
[21:03] <xivulon> Wubi itself in fact was born as an Ubuntu community project.
[21:04] <xivulon> The original idea came from my involvement in helping users on the forum, and observing common stumbling blocks, such as ISO burning, repartitioning, and concerns about bootloader changes.
[21:04] <xivulon> And it grew from there
[21:04] <xivulon> (see http://wubi-installer.org/faq.php#development for the rest of the story and a full list of credits)
[21:05] <xivulon> If you visit the wubi forum http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=234 you will notice that myself  and the other developers have answered most user requests.
[21:05] <xivulon> Keeping a very direct link with the users is how we improve Wubi in a direction that is close to user needs.
[21:05] <xivulon> This is true for all of Ubuntu, whose community truly rocks!
[21:05] <xivulon> and Wubi is just one of the many examples of what we can do together!
[21:06] <xivulon> Hence I would like to thank all the users that helped testing and contributed to Wubi.
[21:06] <xivulon> Thank YOU!
[21:06] <xivulon> And of course Wubi is only the tip of the iceberg.
[21:07] <xivulon> If an installation goes smoothly, if your hardware is well detected and works out of the box, and your desktop experience is great and cool,
[21:07] <xivulon> there is tons of work behind the scenes well outside of the Wubi project boundaries.
[21:08] <xivulon> What makes up the user experience is not just wubi, it is the effort of thousands of developers, from the devs that contributed to the Debian installer and Ubiquity, to the upstream developers, to all the kernel hackers!
[21:08] <xivulon> (Incidentally that works the other way too: if something does not work, it is not always Wubi fault... )
[21:08] <xivulon> :)
[21:08] <xivulon> How does Wubi work?
[21:08] <xivulon> Many think it is a virtual machine or similar
[21:08] <xivulon> It is not
[21:09] <xivulon> It is a 100% real installation
[21:09] <xivulon> everything runs on real iron, except for some trickery used for the hard disk access
[21:09] <xivulon> If you wish, you can think of Wubi as a virtual machine that only virtualises the hard disk, while keeping everything else native.
[21:10] <xivulon> This for instance allows you to get full 3D acceleration and enjoy the wonderful Compiz desktop effects.
[21:10] <xivulon> And this is why a dual boot is required.
[21:10] <xivulon> Also some people are confused by the fact that Wubi "requires" Windows.
[21:11] <xivulon> Of course the front-end would need Windows to run, but once installed, Wubi requires only the Windows filesystem
[21:11] <xivulon> Do you know what happens to a Wubi installation if you delete all of C:\Windows?
[21:11] <xivulon> Absolutely
[21:11] <xivulon> nothing
[21:11] <xivulon> You can still boot and use Ubuntu.
[21:11] <xivulon> Wubi uses 4 main technologies:
[21:12] <xivulon> 1) It beverages the ability of a Linux kernel to access a file as if it was a real device (loop mounts).
[21:12] <xivulon> Most of you might have used that when mounting ISO files.
[21:13] <xivulon> 2) It uses grub4dos, which is a special version of grub that can run on a Windows filesystem.
[21:13] <xivulon> Grub4Dos does not actually replace the Windows bootloader, we keep the Windows bootloader and add an entry so that it will "pass the ball" to grub4dos, which in turn can launch a Linux kernel and initrd
[21:13] <xivulon> 3) ntfs-3g which is the Linux user-space drivers that allows r/w access to ntfs.
[21:14] <xivulon> Without that it would not be possible to perform write operations to the virtual disks in the ntfs filesystem
[21:15] <xivulon> 4) On the Linux side, wubi uses an unattended installation techniques known as "preseeding", courtesy of the Debian-Installer and Ubiquity that then read such instructions and deliver you the finished product.
[21:16] <xivulon> If you are interested about preseeding Evan Dandrea gave a talk on the subject https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekhardy/PreseedingUbiquity
[21:16] <xivulon> Also on the Linux side there were quite a few changes that were required for Ubuntu to be able to target a loopfile, and be able to boot and reboot off a loopfile.
[21:17] <xivulon> Such changes were originally in the Lupin project, but have now been integrated upstream within Ubuntu, thanks to the efforts of myself, Colin J Watson, and Evan Dandrea.
[21:17] <xivulon> The changes involved packages such as grub-installer, grub, sysvinit scripts, initamfs-tools, partman-auto-loop and a few others.
[21:18] <xivulon> As it stands today the use of a loopfile instead of a real hard-disk is the only difference between a Wubi installation and an installation to a dedicated partition.
[21:18] <xivulon> This is not to be taken lightly though
[21:18] <xivulon> And I would like to expand on the subject a bit:
[21:19] <xivulon> One implication is lower I/O performance because of the extra overhead (see also http://lkml.org/lkml/2008/1/9/50).
[21:20] <xivulon> Your performance will also depend on the state of the host filesystem, so if fat/ntfs is very fragmented the disk I/O performance of Ubuntu will deteriorate.
[21:20] <xivulon> In normal circumstances you should not expect very noticeable changes, but there are scenarios where the performance hit might be more evident.
[21:20] <xivulon> Another related issue is that you have a nested filesystem, this makes the configuration less robust, particularly to power outages.
[21:21] <xivulon> This is because data loss in the host filesystem can result in journal loss in the nested filesystem.
[21:21] <xivulon> While we have taken some measure to minimize the risks, it is unlikely that we can eliminate them altogether.
[21:22] <xivulon> Unless we can achieve native fs installations...
[21:22] <xivulon> Finally the swap device is also a file, and hibernation does not work in such circumstances.
[21:22] <xivulon> Because of the above, as a long term installation I always suggest to go for the "good old way" and install to a dedicated partition.
[21:23] <xivulon> Wubi is a great way to take Ubuntu for a ride.
[21:23] <xivulon> But if you know about ISO burning and partitioning and/or like Ubuntu and want to use it on a permanent basis, a full installation is the way to go.
[21:24] <xivulon> Of course we will provide ways to migrate a Wubi installation to a dedicated partition.
[21:24] <xivulon> At the moment projects such as LVPM do not support 8.04, but you can expect the situation to improve rapidly.
[21:24] <xivulon> How smooth is Wubi 8.04?
[21:25] <xivulon> I think it is a major leap forward from previous versions and initial feedback is very positive.
[21:25] <xivulon> There were a few bugs that emerged late in the process (not all of them strictly related to Wubi),
[21:25] <xivulon> but they are being ironed out and you can expect the 8.04.1 release in July to be even smoother
[21:25] <xivulon> Contributing to Wubi:
[21:26] <xivulon> Software system are affected by network externalities (check wikipedia).
[21:26] <xivulon> In short: the more we are, the better it is for all of us!
[21:26] <xivulon> As mentioned, the motivation behind Wubi was to help bring Ubuntu/Linux to less experienced users and expand the user base.
[21:27] <xivulon> But, if people do not know about Wubi/Ubuntu to begin with, that can hardly be achieved.
[21:27] <xivulon> Spreading the word out is a big help!!!
[21:27] <xivulon> In this regard, after the point release in July, I would like to start a Wubi banner campaign :)
[21:27] <xivulon> do join in!
[21:27] <xivulon> Of course if you know how to code, make yourself at home:
[21:28] <xivulon> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/InstallerDevelopment
[21:28] <xivulon> https://launchpad.net/wubi
[21:28] <xivulon> If you want to help translating Wubi, see
[21:28] <xivulon> https://translations.launchpad.net/wubi
[21:28] <xivulon> If you want to add Wubi support to your very own distro, absolutely great!!!
[21:28] <xivulon> (any debian devs around?)
[21:29] <xivulon> Wubi is GPL
[21:29] <xivulon> v2
[21:29] <xivulon> but I am flexible...
[21:29] <xivulon> In fact there is a customization section in the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WubiGuide that covers the topic.
[21:29] <xivulon> Also we do ship testing builds, with new and experimental features and/or tentative bug fixes.
[21:29] <xivulon> Testing them out and reporting back is extremely helpful.
[21:30] <xivulon> Such builds are usually available in http://wubi-installer.org/devel/minefield
[21:30] <xivulon> And if you are a user and things do not work well enogh for you, do something about it!
[21:30] <xivulon> report your bug!
[21:30] <xivulon> Many more points if you can provide the relevant logs (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WubiGuide#head-8823bb81b6e0ecd10006d3d226c1f7e8f6f705b1)
[21:31] <xivulon> and if you can double-check first whether your issues have already been addressed in the past
[21:31] <xivulon> relevant links are:
[21:31] <xivulon> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WubiGuide
[21:31] <xivulon> http://ubuntuforums.org/search.php?f=234
[21:31] <xivulon> https://bugs.launchpad.net/wubi
[21:32] <xivulon> Now Q&A
[21:32] <xivulon> If you are still alive, shoot!
[21:32] <evand> ok, I'm going to start pasting questions
[21:32] <evand> just say next when you're ready for the next one
[21:32] <evand> < Bagnaj97> QUESTION: I've noticed on my (non-wubi) installation that ntfs-3g is quite cpu intensive. Does this  mean installing on fat32 gives a faster system as the driver is in the kernel?
[21:32] <xivulon> the last performance stats I saw, ranked ntfs-3g better than fat32 in several tests
[21:33] <xivulon> you still have same chunks of overhead (loop, ext-3...)
[21:33] <xivulon> I would stick to ntfs though
[21:34] <xivulon> do not have the link handy on the performance tests unfortunately
[21:34] <xivulon> next
[21:35] <evand>  < artir> QUESTION: Why is ubuntu 64 bits installed by Wubi instead of 32(which gives less problems to new users)
[21:35] <xivulon> I do think that 64bit is advanced enough, and far better than it used to be.
[21:36] <xivulon> Spreading also helps to make it better even faster, by gathering relevant user feedback
[21:36] <xivulon> I use amd64 myself for instance
[21:36] <xivulon> It is still possible to select 32 bit as default
[21:37] <xivulon> not too obvious but if you care enough about 32/64 bit installation,
[21:37] <xivulon> you can probably find your way through the FAQ :)
[21:37] <xivulon> <evand> Flash, Wine, etc all work on 64bit now
[21:37] <xivulon> next
[21:37] <evand> < _MMA_> QUESTION: Ubuntu Studio support wasn't included because of the performance overhead of the loopback  mounted filesystem. Are their any plans to have a different install method to reduce the overhead and thus  maybe support for Ubuntu Studio?
[21:38] <xivulon> that was one of the reasons
[21:38] <xivulon> of course wubi might not be the best option for heavy video editing
[21:38] <xivulon> another reason is that wubi requires a Ubiquity based installer
[21:39] <xivulon> and on CD
[21:39] <xivulon> for instance Edubuntu was not included because there was no Live CD ISO
[21:40] <xivulon> you can still get Ubuntu-Studio (and Edubuntu) after installing via Wubi
[21:40] <xivulon> using synaptic and selecting the appropriate packages
[21:40] <xivulon> as for the future
[21:40] <xivulon> we will probably extend support to the alternate ISO (which was the original installation method in 7.04)
[21:41] <xivulon> filesystem efficiency should improve somewhat
[21:41] <xivulon> via kernel patches
[21:42] <xivulon> such as http://lkml.org/lkml/2008/1/9/50
[21:42] <xivulon> and farther back into the future, native installations might be supported (at least for ntfs)
[21:42] <xivulon> so that there will be no need for loopfiles and nested filesystems
[21:43] <xivulon> next
[21:43] <evand> < SgtMuffins> QUESTION: What are you "few bugs" you mentioned that were being ironed out?
[21:43] <evand> (you might want to touch on some of the more important ones, like the m-a madness)
[21:43] <evand> or you can just pass and say next :)
[21:43] <xivulon> You can check bugs.launchpad.net/wubi for a full list
[21:43] <xivulon> but the main ones were the following
[21:44] <xivulon> 1) we discovered late in the process that vista with latest patches will make wubi jameonce the CD is ejected
[21:44] <xivulon> fixing that would have meant postponing the release. A fix is already available.
[21:44] <evand> (by late, you mean the day of the release) :)
[21:45] <xivulon> the same morning in fact :)
[21:45] <xivulon> 2) we found out late also that when accented chars are used in the OS name, the installer will jam
[21:46] <xivulon> French users were not too happy... But that too has been fixed
[21:47] <xivulon> 3) Non really a wubi bugs, but an old issue due to https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/grub/+bug/8497
[21:47] <xivulon> a proper fix is very difficult and it affects Ubuntu too
[21:47] <xivulon> but in a recent brainstorm it occurred to us that it can be fixed in the case of Wubi
[21:47] <xivulon> Those are the main reasons for complaints at the moment
[21:48] <xivulon> Then of course Wubi is no magic wand
[21:48] <xivulon> Any issue that affects Ubuntu will also affect Wubi
[21:48] <xivulon> If you have ACPI problems in Ubuntu, the same will hold for Wubi
[21:48] <xivulon> If you have video problems in Ubuntu, the same will hold for Wubi
[21:49] <xivulon> in such  case it is important to report the issues, so that they can be properly addressed
[21:49] <xivulon> next
[21:49] <evand> < Waistless> QUESTION: What other debian or non-debian based distributions could be maintained by Wubi, provided  the relevant projects provided support?
[21:50] <xivulon> As mentioned Wubi requires some upstream changes on the Linux side
[21:50] <xivulon> What used to be the Lupin project.
[21:50] <xivulon> In order to be able to install/boot/reboot off a loopfile
[21:50] <xivulon> Such changes are now in Ubuntu.
[21:51] <xivulon> So most Ubuntu derivatives should work with very little change
[21:51] <xivulon> Provided a Live CD ISO is available (Ubiquity)
[21:51] <xivulon> D-I (alternate installer) will be supported in next release (hopefully)
[21:52] <xivulon> That should open the way to all Debian derivatives
[21:52] <xivulon> Provided the patches can be merged upstream
[21:53] <xivulon> Other distros that do not use preseeding or grub, might require some further changes
[21:53] <xivulon> See also https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WubiGuide#head-46a259e526b3dbc67c622a327cb8ff2e243ea52b
[21:53] <xivulon> next
[21:54] <evand> that's it!
[21:54] <xivulon> great
[21:54] <xivulon> Thank you all then!
[21:54] <jcastro> Thanks so much Agostino!
[21:54] <evand> Thanks Ago!
[21:54] <xivulon> You are most welcome
=== jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Open Week | Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | How to ask questions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules | Ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, prefaced with "QUESTION:" |See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/JoiningIn to filter out channel noise | "Ubuntu Documentation Project" - Richard Johnson
=== jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Open Week | Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | How to ask questions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules | Ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, prefaced with "QUESTION:" |See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/JoiningIn to filter out channel noise | "Ubuntu Documentation Project" - Jordan Mantha
[21:56] <jcastro> Unfortunately Richard Johnson has a power outage, so Jordan Mantha, aka LaserJock will be filling in
[21:56] <jcastro> In about 5 minutes. :D
[22:00] <jcastro> ok LaserJock, take it away!
[22:00] <LaserJock> ok people, time to get excited!
[22:00] <LaserJock> My name is Jordan Mantha and I'm a volunteer developer for Ubuntu
[22:01] <LaserJock> today I'm going to give you a brief intro to the Ubuntu Documentation Project and then open it up for a Q&A time
[22:01] <LaserJock> The Doc Team is an all-volunteer army of people with a variety of technical abilities and backgrounds
[22:02] <LaserJock> with the goal of providing first-class system documentation for Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Xubuntu, and Edubuntu
[22:02] <LaserJock> as well as trying to calm the chaos that is the Ubuntu wikies
[22:03] <LaserJock> we have a core set of team members that have write access to the system documentation that is housed in bzr branches on Launchpad
[22:04] <LaserJock> the system documentation is written in docbook for people who care :-)
[22:04] <LaserJock> but we also have a DocuMENTORs program for people who want to get mentored into the team
[22:04] <LaserJock> and they can join a Documentation Students team
[22:05] <LaserJock> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-doc/+members gives an overview of the teams
[22:05] <LaserJock> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam is a general intro to what we work on
[22:05] <LaserJock> and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Mentoring talks about the mentoring program
[22:06] <LaserJock> are there any questions at this point?
[22:07] <LaserJock>  QUESTION: Why should people care about docbook?
[22:08] <LaserJock> well, docbook has lots of advantages, and some disadvantages
[22:08] <LaserJock> docbook is nice because it has a fairly simple, XML, syntax
[22:08] <LaserJock> if you know any HTML you can pick it up easily
[22:09] <LaserJock> it's also built specifically for technical documentation
[22:09] <LaserJock> and it can be built into almost any other format such as HTML, PDF, etc.
[22:10] <LaserJock> the only real similar alternative I know if in terms of flexibility is TeX and we don't want to go there ;-)
[22:10] <LaserJock> next
[22:11] <jcastro> < jayteeuk> QUESTION: Are the doc team also responsible for this week's session logs?
[22:11] <LaserJock> no
[22:12] <LaserJock> the Doc team specially works on the system documentation (what you get installed on your computer) and the wiki on help.ubuntu.com/community
[22:12] <LaserJock> Ubuntu has a wonderful Scribes team which works on irc transcripts and such
[22:12] <LaserJock> next
[22:13] <jcastro> < bullgard4> QUESTION: It seems to me remarkable that your attention slipped the fact that many manpages are of low  or uneven  quality.
[22:13] <LaserJock> ah, this is an interesting question
[22:13] <LaserJock> we, in general, work on "filling in the gaps" or writing Ubuntu-specific documentation
[22:14] <LaserJock> because man pages are done by the software authors and are shipped by individual packages it becomes a much more complicated task
[22:14] <LaserJock> however, it has not slipped our notice that a great many manpages could be improved
[22:15] <LaserJock> but in terms of priority, we focus more on new users and people who are not familiar with a terminal, and hence probably won't be reading man pages
[22:15] <LaserJock> but sure, given enough resources we'd love to look at *all* documentation
[22:15] <LaserJock> next
[22:15] <jcastro> < Syntux> QUESTION: Do you guys have a core documentation that fits under a must have with every release?
[22:16] <LaserJock> hmm
[22:16] <LaserJock> I guess we do
[22:17] <LaserJock> we always include information on things like printing, networking, setting up things like graphics cards
[22:17] <LaserJock> we try to look at at the things that a brand new Ubuntu user would need
[22:17] <LaserJock> but as this is a volunteer effort we sometimes don't get all we want
[22:18] <LaserJock> but by this point we've built up a pretty good base of the essential documentation
[22:18] <LaserJock> so what we do is update the documentation we have for the new release
[22:18] <LaserJock> then look at things we can add or new features we need to document
[22:18] <LaserJock> we also have things like a Server Guide and a Switching from Windows guide
[22:19] <LaserJock> next
[22:19] <jcastro> < DoruHush> QUESTION: There is any plan to add to the documentation explanations regarding the use of GUI's and not only command  line? (picture will be nice) (humans do not like the Terminal)
[22:19] <LaserJock> ah
[22:20] <LaserJock> well we do actually use GUI documentation wherever possible
[22:20] <LaserJock> however, we don't use a lot of screenshots
[22:20] <LaserJock> screenshots are very very difficult to keep updated and translated
[22:20] <LaserJock> Ubuntu documentation is translated into well over 50 languages
[22:21] <LaserJock> which means screenshots should be correspondingly translated, which is a very difficult task
[22:21] <LaserJock> so we tend to not use them very much and rather explain in text
[22:21] <LaserJock> but we do, as a policy, prefer GUI tools over the terminal
[22:21] <LaserJock> next
[22:21] <jcastro> < Syntux> QUESTION: Do you have your own documentation-translation team? any ties with the LoCo team for that purpose? else how  does the docs translation works?
[22:22] <LaserJock> The documentation is translated via Launchpad (Rosetta) just as the rest of Ubuntu is
[22:23] <LaserJock> we have good ties with the translation teams and we do encourage LoCo teams to maintain localized versions of the wikis
[22:23] <LaserJock> next
[22:23] <jcastro> < bullgard4> QUESTION: It seems to me that for a brand new Ubuntu user an introductory book is esseential as you have provided  in the past. How about a Hardy edition?
[22:23] <LaserJock> I believe the Official Ubuntu Book is being updated
[22:23] <jcastro> It is
[22:23] <jcastro> there is a 3rd edition on the way
[22:24] <LaserJock> and because it is released under a free license the Documentation team incorporates it into our documentation
[22:24] <jcastro> http://www.mypearsonstore.com/bookstore/product.asp?isbn=0137136684
[22:24] <LaserJock> in terms of having a big "User Guide" PDF we've found that users tend to not use them and they are hard to maintain
[22:25] <LaserJock> instead we've moved to what's called a Topic Based Help system that you seen when you open the Help viewer
[22:26] <LaserJock> any more questions? perhaps on the wikis?
[22:26] <jcastro> *waiting on questions*
[22:26] <LaserJock> I know it's pretty late on a Friday for most people
[22:26] <LaserJock> :-)
[22:26] <LaserJock> I will say that the Documentation team is one of the very best places to get involved with contributing to Ubuntu
[22:27] <LaserJock> unlike packaging and bug triage which you've probably seen quite a bit of
[22:27] <LaserJock> documentation doesn't take a lot of technical skill
[22:27] <LaserJock> having pretty good English skills is about it
[22:28] <LaserJock> next?
[22:28] <jcastro>  < bullgard4> QUESTION: What can you do to encourage people to write more Ubuntu Wiki articles than in the past?
[22:28] <LaserJock> well, there's a couple things there
[22:29] <LaserJock> first, we can promote it more
[22:29] <LaserJock> talk about it on Planet Ubuntu, talk to our friends, link more from the forums
[22:29] <LaserJock> second, we already have a huge amount of documentation on the wikis
[22:29] <LaserJock> a lot of what we really need is people to expand or clean up existing articles
[22:29] <LaserJock> documentation is very much a collaborative process
[22:30] <LaserJock> some people are good about starting pages and getting them organized
[22:30] <LaserJock> some people are good at expanding and making pages more user-friendly
[22:30] <LaserJock> some people are good at proofreading and check spelling and grammar
[22:30] <LaserJock> we need all those people
[22:30] <LaserJock> next
[22:30] <jcastro> < DoruHush> QUESTION: The KDE4 documentation it is included at this time into the ubuntu documentation? Or it is expected the  final (stable) release of the Kubuntu KDE4 to do that?
[22:31] <LaserJock> well, I believe there is KDE4 documentation
[22:31] <LaserJock> to be honest Richard Johnson, who I'm replacing as he couldn't be here, is the one to ask
[22:32] <LaserJock> but we at least have the documentation that KDE4 people have written
[22:32] <LaserJock> next
[22:32] <jcastro> *waiting on questions*
[22:32] <jcastro> < DoruHush> QUESTION: On the wiki at this time are a lot of pages that are outdated, and are in desperate need of updates  (upgrades). How the community can help with that?
[22:33] <LaserJock> what we need for the wiki is really a "critical mass" of people
[22:33] <LaserJock> we have people who work on the wiki here and there trying to update and clean up
[22:34] <LaserJock> but once we get enough people together into a common effort we can really get a lot done
[22:34] <LaserJock> for people who are interested I would highly recommend joining the ubuntu-doc mailing list
[22:34] <LaserJock> you can find it on http://lists.ubuntu.com
[22:34] <LaserJock> the documentation team does have a wiki team
[22:34] <LaserJock> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-wiki
[22:35] <LaserJock> that's a good place to get started
[22:35] <LaserJock> if you want to jump in check out https://help.ubuntu.com/community/CategoryCleanup
[22:35] <LaserJock> which lists pages that need cleaning up
[22:36] <LaserJock> and https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide which helps you know our "standards"
[22:36] <LaserJock> next
[22:36] <jcastro> < bullgard4> QUESTION: Ever thought of an incentive "Best Wiki artcle of the month"?
[22:36] <LaserJock> that could be a lot of fun
[22:37] <LaserJock> please send an email about that to the ubuntu-doc list
[22:37] <LaserJock> I think that could definately be something fun to do
[22:37] <LaserJock> thanks for the suggestion
[22:37] <LaserJock> next
[22:37] <jcastro> < gscholz> QUESTION: Going back to the translation issue, how is updating managed? Is an old translation lost if the original  English text is updated? When I look at my German help browser on the same page I find English paragraphs mixed up  with  German ones.
[22:37] <LaserJock> ah
[22:37] <LaserJock> well, that can happen
[22:38] <LaserJock> the documentation is frozen before release to allow time for translators to do their work
[22:38] <LaserJock> but often times translations are not complete
[22:38] <LaserJock> we don't "throw away" a translation just because it isn't 100% done
[22:39] <LaserJock> we ship what we have (there is a threshold of around 10% for space considerations)
[22:39] <LaserJock> next
[22:39] <jcastro> < BonesolTeraDyne> QUESTION: Is there a site that would help a newbie learn to write documentation in Docbook format? I mean a  decent step-by-step, not something that just explains the process.
[22:39] <LaserJock> hmm
[22:40] <LaserJock> I can't think of a really really good one
[22:41] <LaserJock> one of the best things to do is to just jump in
[22:41] <LaserJock> you can head over to #ubuntu-doc any time to ask questions
[22:41] <LaserJock> plus you might want to sign up for the Mentoring program
[22:41] <LaserJock> there you can get more one-on-one help
[22:41] <LaserJock> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Mentoring
[22:42] <LaserJock> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/DocBook might be some help
[22:42] <LaserJock> next
[22:42] <jcastro> < DoruHush> QUESTION: The wiki pages can be localized (translated) into other languages?
[22:42] <LaserJock> they certainly can be, but we don't host them on wiki.ubuntu.com or help.ubuntu.com
[22:43] <LaserJock> what we prefer is to have LoCos maintain a copy of the wikis on their sight
[22:43] <LaserJock> in this way we hope to point users to the LoCos
[22:43] <LaserJock> and to their specific language
[22:43] <LaserJock> and help.ubuntu.com doesn't get full of 50 versions of each page :-)
[22:43] <LaserJock> next
[22:44] <jcastro> *waiting on questions*
[22:44] <jcastro> someone linked to this though for docbook: http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gdp/handbook/gdp-handbook/ar01s04.html
[22:44] <jcastro> thanks dsas!
[22:45] <LaserJock> one question we often get is why an Ubuntu Documentation team exists at all
[22:45] <LaserJock> that we should point people to upstream documentation teams like Gnome or KDE
[22:46] <LaserJock> what the Ubuntu Doc team does is write documentation that links things together
[22:46] <LaserJock> or documents places where we've changed things in Ubuntu
[22:46] <LaserJock> we write documentation for specific task rather than for specific programs
[22:47] <LaserJock> and now that Hardy has been released
[22:47] <LaserJock> we've got an effort going to go help out the Gnome Documentation team for a while before we really get into Intrepid's docs
[22:47] <LaserJock> so we do try to work closely with upstream documentation teams
[22:48] <LaserJock> any more questions? anything at all?
[22:49] <LaserJock> I would encourage anybody interested in documentation to join the ubuntu-doc mailng list
[22:50] <LaserJock> it's a low-key hang out :-)
[22:50] <LaserJock> and do remember that the documentation team does more than just Ubuntu
[22:51] <LaserJock> for Hardy the Xubuntu  and Server documentors did some really awesome work
[22:51] <jcastro> < DoruHush> QUESTION: In the lifetime of one Ubuntu distribution (version) the translations are updated? Or they remain like  they were in the day of the release?
[22:51] <LaserJock> we treat documentation much the same way as anything else in Ubuntu
[22:52] <LaserJock> we have a freeze about a month or so before release
[22:52] <LaserJock> to allow for tranlsations and also for us to proofread
[22:52] <LaserJock> after release people will find "bugs"
[22:52] <LaserJock> typos, maybe an incorrect command
[22:53] <LaserJock> and we will fix those if they're important
[22:53] <LaserJock> we also ship updated translations after release (about once a month or so)
[22:53] <LaserJock> so people are always encouraged to keep translating :-)
[22:53] <LaserJock> if you find an error in the system documentation please file a bug
[22:54] <jcastro> time for one more question!
[22:56] <jcastro> ok, no questions
[22:56] <LaserJock> alrighty
[22:56] <jcastro> thanks so much everyone for participating in another day of openweek!
[22:56] <LaserJock> thank you all for your questions
[22:56] <jcastro> and thanks LaserJock for filling in!
[22:56] <LaserJock> no problem
[22:56] <jcastro> Next sessions start @ 1500UTC tomorrow
[22:56] <jcastro> So we'll see you all again tomorrow, thanks!