=== kinoucho` is now known as kinouchou === jibel_ is now known as jibel [22:47] phillw; which theme of Xubuntu was good for accessibility? And what made it so good? [22:53] MrChrisDruif: you, rafael and charlie-tca would need to chat about that. The kubuntu graphics guy is a really nice guy and it does seem that the two kindred spirits get on really well with each other. [22:54] phillw; It seems Rafael isn't much on IRC....and not very cooperative...I've had some off mailing-list conversation with him... [22:54] He works better alone I would say :) [22:55] the design work for the kubuntu area is breathtaking. You lads wanting to learn web-site stuff could learn SO much from the kubuntu people. [22:55] the kubuntu graphics guy = who? [22:55] roman used to do the login screens to match the wallpaper...is that who you mean? [22:56] Don't you mean ochosi? [22:56] i dont know who ochosi is [22:57] not a name ive seen in #kubuntu-devel at all [22:57] I think he made blue- and graybird [22:57] #shimmer is for theming right? [22:57] i dont know what you're talking about now [22:58] is that an upstream channel or something? [22:58] Ow...kubuntu... [22:58] shimmer is from xubuntu [22:58] oh ok [22:58] xD [22:58] Sorry aboot that [22:59] phillw; So it was the theme from Kubuntu that is great...or that from Xubuntu? [22:59] * MrChrisDruif is getting confused :P [22:59] it was, [23:00] afaik, it was charlie-tca who said it was one of the kubuntu themes that he had spent a long time on getting sorted. [23:00] K? [23:00] except from an accessibility viewpoint, for poor visual ability, plasma is really hard on the eyes [23:00] phillw: xubuntu [23:00] even with a different plasma theme? [23:01] maco: I don't know how to change themes in Kubuntu [23:01] Aloha charlie-tca :) [23:01] charlie-tca: so the theme is via xubuntu? [23:01] but that default is really hard to read [23:01] phillw: yes [23:01] the greybird theme is a good theme for most of us [23:01] charlie-tca: system settings -> workspace appearance -> desktop theme changes plasma's theme [23:01] charlie-tca: soz, I thought you were a kubuntu person! [23:01] charlie-tca: system settings -> workspace appearnce -> window decorations for title bars [23:01] As you might have realized...I've taken it upon myself to make an accessibility theme for Lubuntu [23:02] charlie-tca: system settings -> application appearance for the window chrome [23:02] phillw: Xubuntu Project Lead [23:02] Kubuntu accessibility tester [23:02] Ubuntu accessibility tester [23:02] charlie-tca; So we're pretty good along the way with our accessibility theme already? [23:02] charlie-tca: again my apoligies, I thougt it was kubuntu! [23:03] MrChrisDruif: you are? that's a good thing. [23:03] yeah, too much transparancies letting the background and fonts blend is not so easy to read [23:04] charlie-tca: regardless of the tone of emails flying backwards and forwards. I assure accessibility that [23:04] Lubuntu IS commited [23:04] I got that :-) [23:04] Well...if you can take a look at ozone? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/Artwork/Incoming/Natty/Ozone Current theme in Natty [23:05] the only developer we got around is TheMuso, and he is usually really busy [23:05] To what are we committed phillw ? Or better put, to what not? :P [23:05] I don't see TheMuso say much indeed [23:06] I keep telling shimmer what blends too much, and ochosi made some serious efforts to get greybird where it should be usable by anyone. [23:06] I lirk, but I am often busy as charlie-tca said. If people want my attention on IRC, they need to signal me via my nickname, then I respond. [23:06] charlie-tca: I have chatted to TheMuso, hence his name being used when JM gave his opinion! - These devs do not pander to the electorate and wrap stuff in cotton wool - they say it as they see it. [23:07] MrChrisDruif: I like that [23:07] charlie-tca; Ozone you mean? [23:07] You might have some fine tuning on the white titles on the blue, but that is nice theme [23:07] yeah [23:08] phillw; Hear that? [23:08] phillw: unfortunately, so do I, so do I [23:08] TheMuso: hopefully, as Lubuntu gets past the next hurdle, we may have a little more dev time to help eachother. [23:09] phillw: Cool./ [23:09] So we'd only need to look into the white on blue lettering and we're pretty much a done deal charlie-tca ? [23:09] charlie-tca: im a developer... [23:09] JM is certainly up for it, as are people from SII etc. [23:09] just not on canonical payroll like TheMuso ;) [23:09] phillw: I am sure you noticed I don't back down easily. I think Lubuntu has a niche to fill, and I really want it to succeed. [23:10] MrChrisDruif: from what I see there, yes. there will always be some tuning to work out, but for the most part, it looks good. [23:10] dam [23:10] phillw: I lied [23:11] maco is a developer too [23:11] charlie-tca: Lubuntu will succeed, as for backing down? That is not required. Imagine if the only choice you had was Win, or N [23:11] Mac? [23:11] probably some more around here [23:11] * MrChrisDruif checks it of his todo list [23:11] phillw: I agree [23:11] withing the linux family we have hunders, possibly thousands of flavours. [23:11] im still pretty noob on a11y coding, but ive got the basics of ATK hinting sorted [23:11] and I am pretty sure lubuntu doesn't want to integrate orca as it is today, too [23:12] It's strength and it's weakness at the same time [23:12] I read something about a C or C++ implementation of Orca? [23:12] charlie-tca: from what I understand, it pulls in gnome and all its dependant relatives. This is not something we can do :( [23:12] experience with orca in Xubuntu says it ain't lightweight by any means [23:12] Not only good for Lubuntu /me thinks [23:12] MrChrisDruif: Not confirmed, parts of orca may be ported to C to improve performance. [23:13] yes, someone is working towards something in C, I think [23:13] Not necessarily, it depends on whether its worth the porting, i.e whether performance is that much better. [23:13] phillw: given a choice between orca and none, choose none for this cycle. [23:13] That's what I read as well TheMuso [23:13] I am not sure what is slow about orca [23:14] AlanBell: I don't see it as slow, but I don't count it as light either. [23:14] charlie-tca: okies, as you all know. we are pretty tight on what we can add to Lubuntu without breaking our rules on what it must run on. [23:15] yup [23:15] I would like to see dasher working in everything, but at least try for Onboard Keyboard, it does help, at least. [23:15] AlanBell: it is down to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu#System requirements [23:16] oh, lubuntu stuff [23:16] AlanBell: that is wat we are discussing :) [23:16] but that is a we won't use gnome thing rather than a performance thing [23:16] s/ /%20 [23:17] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu#System%20requirements [23:17] AlanBell: more of a "make it work in the 128MB ram" thing, I think [23:17] AlanBell: we will use anything that keeps us in that requirements. Remember Apollo 13? -- There is a red line in AMPS to get it to work, we have the same to do. [23:18] yeah, apollo 13 doesn't fly any more [23:18] If we cannot, we cannot - but that is no excuse for not trying. [23:19] but hey, it sounds like a fun project [23:19] I like the idea of a very lightweight ubuntu derivative. [23:20] I have sent several people to try it, when they compain about slow systems. [23:20] I give people more ram [23:20] AlanBell: ooh, goodie, I know several thousand people waiting for such gifts :P [23:20] RAM != faster system ;) [23:21] anyhow, does lubuntu expose stuff to accercciser? [23:22] AlanBell; What? [23:22] MrChrisDruif: lack of ram is almost always the only performance problem [23:22] AlanBell: a lot of people with accessibilty issues are in the lower quadrant of income. they cannot afford the 'latest' computer. My interest in this also rolls over to the ubntu-uk thread of school computers. [23:23] accerciser shows you what information is available over at-spi [23:23] AlanBell; I meant the second sentence..."does lubuntu expose stuff to accercciser?" [23:23] phillw: yeah, and the stuff being pushed out by remploy is perfect for gnome, if it had more ram, so I am looking at how to up their spec [23:24] Back in 10.04 alpha2 we had a teacher from india come on and say he had managed to keep his little school lab going, on a blade server, of all things, because lubuntu used 30% less resources than the gnome one. Blade servers are not really designed with serving multiple dumb terminals, but that guy did it. [23:25] Give them the tools, they will make what they need. [23:30] charlie-tca: by the way, once JM has a chance, he is going to load up LightDM and compare resource usage to lxdm. As I said, I do recall some chatter about lightDM, but I'd rather have some one run some stats on them both. [23:30] Great! [23:31] In xubuntu, it works quite nicely, and doesn't have near the gnome dependencies of GDM [23:31] phillw: let JM know it crashes at login right now, but does not seem to block anything. [23:31] charlie-tca: as we are virtually gnome free, lxdm is pretty lean :) [23:32] I just keep getting a apport crash in oneiric from it [23:32] dropping HAL (whatever that is :P ) has taken a little time also [23:32] It is really easy to theme too [23:33] Yes, HAL had to go away. It was the way most power stuff was managed. dbus has replaced it, but I understand very little other than HAL is "bad" now [23:35] AlanBell: I have lost my begging list for second hand computers for F/OSS projects, could you or one of the ubuntu-uk people please resend it to phillw@ubuntu.com [23:35] I guess I better go make moinmoin desktop edition work with python greater than 2.6 now. [23:38] moinmoin desktop edition? So you can WYSIWYG it on your own pc? [23:38] phillw: do you mean this? https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-uk/2011-May/029581.html [23:44] AlanBell: that's the one, thanks. [23:45] http://www.ecycleonline.co.uk/choose-your-computer---ubuntu-12-c.asp [23:46] talking to them about doubling the RAM on the ubuntu models so they are higher spec than the XP ones [23:47] nothing wrong with the CPU but 256 is rather tight [23:47] would like to put a gig on all of them tbh [23:48] I have one of the Dell boxes in the pictures, works fine with a gig of ram running unity, single core 1.6Ghz processor [23:48] and they are the UKs largest employer of people with disabilities apparently [23:52] MrChrisDruif: a short version of moinmoin, uses python 2.6 or less. It does not a full lamp installed [23:55] AlanBell: when I was plant chemist (many, many moons ago) we used to make the foam seat tablets for Remploy to turn into office furniture. It really is a small world. I did read, also many years ago that they shut that Remploy factory down :( [23:55] MrChrisDruif: let's me plan pages out without using wiki.ubuntu.com for it. I just copy and paste when I build them. [23:55] http://moinmo.in/DesktopEdition [23:56] wiki.ubuntu.com is actually likely to be somewhat fixed soonish [23:56] It just saves a lot of frustration doing it on my own computer first [23:57] yeah, I understand totally [23:57] * charlie-tca been hearing wiki.ubuntu.com will be fixed soon for a l-o-n-g time [23:57] http://wiki-test.ubuntu.com/Accessibility [23:57] besides, it keeps me from complaining too loudly to the website people. [23:58] yeah, I have been pestering them for over a year, but now there is an actual running test instance of 1.9.1 with Xapian turned on and a getuser cache patch [23:58] That will help a lot! [23:58] http://moinmo.in/MoinMoinBugs/GetSubscribersSlow [23:59] that is a nice page. Will we get it? [23:59] http://wiki-test.ubuntu.com/SystemInfo actually running 1.9.2 [23:59] I got 1.9.3 running here, but have to use python2.6 for it to work