[12:57] goodnight everybody === klepas [n=klepas@ppp167-251-133.static.internode.on.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === rrittenhouse [n=tad@cpe-76-188-35-66.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [02:16] moin === Madpilot [n=brian@ubuntu/member/madpilot] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === klepas [n=klepas@ppp167-251-133.static.internode.on.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === BHSPitLappy [n=steve-o@adsl-65-69-154-162.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === coz_ [n=cosimo32@pool-68-162-162-84.pitt.east.verizon.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [06:43] looks like numbers have dwindled === msikma [n=Msikma@s55933ad4.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === lizardking_ [n=Miranda@87.7.128.73] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === elkbuntu [n=melissa@121.44.243.113] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === darkmatter [n=darkmatt@unaffiliated/darkmatter] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === Seveas [n=seveas@ubuntu/member/seveas] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === klepas [n=klepas@60-242-104-119.tpgi.com.au] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === BHSPitLappy [n=steve-o@adsl-65-69-154-162.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === coz_ [n=cosimo32@pool-68-162-162-84.pitt.east.verizon.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === PseudoPlacebo [n=Placebo@user-0ceveav.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === BHSPitMonkey_ [n=stephen@adsl-67-64-112-231.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === BHSPitLappy [n=steve-o@adsl-67-64-112-231.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === KaiL [n=KaiL@p548F526B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === PingunZ [n=PingunZ@190.187-240-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === PingunZ is now known as PingunZ|food === lizardking [n=Miranda@87.7.128.73] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === andreasn [n=andreas@h101n1fls31o839.telia.com] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === lizardking__ [n=lizardki@host73-128-dynamic.7-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === PseudoPlacebo [n=Placebo@user-0ceveav.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === rrittenhouse [n=tad@cpe-76-188-35-66.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === PingunZ [n=PingunZ@190.187-240-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === nysosym [n=nysosym@p54B79E17.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [05:31] hi there :) [05:31] any news? === coz_ [n=cosimo32@pool-68-162-162-84.pitt.east.verizon.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === coz_ [n=cosimo32@pool-68-162-162-84.pitt.east.verizon.net] has left #ubuntu-artwork ["Leaving"] [06:21] greets nysosym === lizardking_ [n=lizardki@host73-128-dynamic.7-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [06:23] greets lizardking_ [06:23] troy_s: Hi, I just finshed to study information retireival :D [06:23] what are you taking in uni as your ugrad? [06:25] what's ugrad? [06:27] hi troy_s and lizardking_ :) [06:27] Hi guy! [06:28] Hmm i think it's a good way to make beryl/compit optional. :) [06:29] But i liked the face browser idea for gdm, is these deffered although? [06:29] ugrad == under grad degree [06:29] as in your 4 year bachelors degree major [06:30] i think fundamentally proceeding into opengl design issues [06:30] without a strategy [06:30] or the ability to offer other users suitable simulations via software [06:30] is simply foolish [06:32] sabdfl should just bork the whole gnome / kde war, fund an ubuntu-centric window manager in a similar vein to e17 [06:32] When I will under grad senior degree , I will try to get a work in Canonical/ubuntu :D [06:32] what is your major? [06:32] computer science? [06:32] troy_s: ok, but i think face-browser has a absolutely "must have" effect === PseudoPlacebo [n=Placebo@user-0ceveav.cable.mindspring.com] has left #ubuntu-artwork ["Moo."] [06:32] nysosym: face browsers offer a fundamental security issue [06:33] troy_s: yes computer science, networks, sw development [06:33] nysosym: which isn't a huge deal in a home environment, but could be 'yet one more small detail' in a library, corporate, etc. [06:33] troy_s: sure, but i option to activate them would be nice :D [06:33] nysosym: option is great [06:33] nysosym: but default is a no brainer. [06:34] and once again, having the technology and integrating it with some degree of design based thinking is a whole other matter. [06:35] Ubuntu has enough issues trying to get a bloody plan into place _without_ the complexities of GL interface design wrapped into it. [06:36] But Macslow, would be write the code for that feature. Anyway, where is fschoep? [06:36] fschoep left the Ubuntu crowd [06:37] why? O.o [06:37] We have enough features [06:37] look at the nightmare we already have with rather scattered presentation [06:37] look at the website, the packaging, the operating system itself, etc. [06:37] its is just bloody awful across _all_ the ubuntus. [06:39] Sure, i'm aren't a developer, that's only my mind. I think feisty fawn will be the direct concurrent of Vista and Leopard, and we should have many more eyecandy for a lot of new users. [06:39] not a chance [06:39] there is exactly 0% chance for Ubuntu to even be close to competing with those two [06:40] they have actual design teams with trained and educated people on them [06:40] we can't even agree to disagree [06:40] Eyecandy is carefully planned and executed [06:40] in both those environments [06:40] not haphazard and scattered as in Ubuntu [06:41] there is simply no hope until Ubuntu starts thinking about design -- the _full_ picture. [06:41] what a shame, but ok, i agree that other things have a lot bigger priority [06:42] In Free Software design, people realize they are working on a SINGLE project and the code MUST fit or else it will not work. [06:42] In design -- everyone is happy go lucky [06:42] There is no 'bigger picture' -- no central application that simply will 'work' or 'not work' [06:42] No one treating it as a discipline [06:43] It is a hobby level of design in FOSS. [06:43] Simply abhorrent. [06:43] No vision. Simplistic mimicry of the most mediocre variety. [06:43] Etc. [06:44] Unfortunately, that paints a bleak picture, but quite simply, it is the reality. [06:44] yes, fully agreed! [06:44] What we need is a global design guideline [06:44] You need look no further than the awful tacky photography on the packaging, the rather 'always attempt to be middle grey unoffensive' stance of the work. [06:44] etc. [06:44] yep [06:45] But unfortunately, the man steering that process A) doesn't give a feck and doesn't appreciate its importance in the product, B) doesn't have an understanding of even the most fundamental principles, etc. [06:45] Brilliant guy [06:45] but, the most devs are hobby programmer and nobody can force them to use these guideline [06:45] but on seeing the whole package, he simply flails. [06:46] Yes... or untrained 'artists' [06:46] And we do have trained folks in our midst. [06:46] coz_ I know for certain is trained and educated. [06:46] Etc. [06:46] It has a serious impact when attempting to evaluate directionality -- as in 'the future' -- as you can evaluate patterns based on your historical knowledge, etc. [06:47] troy_s: ok, but on the other side, 98% of applications in OSX looks perfect, stylish and perfect. Why can't Linux dev make these true?! [06:47] I already explained that... [06:47] First, OSX isn't the end all nor something we would want to imitate [06:47] It has flaws. [06:47] etc. [06:48] That said, Apple has a very educated design staff [06:48] And that is why it is successful [06:48] They all discuss things on an artistic / design level -- they brainstorm -- etc. They don't just push pixels and hope it fits in. [06:48] They look at the whole package -- how will the elements fit in against the design attributes of the casings, etc. [06:49] How does the interface actually 'work' with their target audience? [06:49] yes ok, sry i'm aren't so good in english and read your lines inquiring, but very slow... [06:49] Lol. [06:49] Your english is darn good compared to my ability to speak in another language... [06:49] thx, but slow ^^ [06:50] The best analogy I can communicate is something similar to say, the jackd audio central server -- anyone who writes audio applications integrates with it. [06:50] In design, there is no such need. [06:50] Rather, there is the _need_ but no such deft application of execution. [06:51] You have a percentage of people who want Ubuntu to be either "GNOMEish" or "KDEish" (whatever that is -- it isn't like there is an underlying style to either) [06:51] Then you have a percentage who just do their own thing [06:51] Etc. [06:51] In the end however, none of the approaches even attempts to reconcile with something as simple as a communication keyword, a designated audience, etc. [06:51] Hence -- the byproduct you see now. [06:52] And it isn't like it has gotten better from Warty [06:52] It, in fact, has done nothing more than swirl around in an eddy. [06:53] Factor in politicking, and you have a rather nightmarish situation. [06:53] sure sure, but what i mean, have a look on many little programs write by hobby devs on osx, like a cpu rating program or similar. These program looks perfect, and simple i don't think that these devs have a look on any guideline. What i think is, that the apple tools to create a gui for an application is a lot better as the linux pendants [06:53] Uh [06:54] You are mistaken [06:54] Have you seen the design guidelines for XP, Vista, or OSX? [06:54] They are hundreds of pages. [06:54] http://developer.apple.com/documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/OSXHIGuidelines/XHIGIntro/chapter_1_section_1.html [06:54] http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa511258.aspx [06:55] preliminary documents on vista are 20 megs [06:55] This is _SUCH_ a common practice [06:55] troy_s: ok, but why use a hobby osx dev these guideline and linux devs aren't? [06:55] in art / design / creative fields... for example, in television, you build a design 'bible' before you shoot a single episode. [06:55] nysosym: Probably the simple fact that there simply aren't enough educated folks in the crowd. [06:56] in a feature film scenario, you write treatments and build a bible [06:56] in _any_ creative endeavour of a larger capacity, you spend MUCH time evaluating, brainstorming, and most importantly -- RECORDING the thought process and the results. [06:56] troy_s: yes, i will work in the graphic business and i will design guis for programs and have many ideas, but i can produce these ideas, because i can't write any line of code. [06:57] I wish I could show you the pre-visualization work I have seen on feature film sets... the art directors often draft THOUSANDS of sketches to develop one simple 1.5 hour movie. [06:58] nysosym: Integration is the other factor -- apple and ms know and appreciate what the creative design means to the bottom line [06:58] it means bigger dollars [06:58] more market share [06:58] etc. [06:58] i would help any developer without skills to make a beautiful program with a nice usability. But the most devs don't ask me, for any reason ^^ [06:58] beauty is relative, but I can appreciate your point. [06:58] that is the thing... the best companies that produce the most compelling design have COLLABORATION at their core [06:59] everyone is communicating in the same 'idea sphere' and everyone respects each person's vital role in the output [06:59] segmentation doesn't produce this. [06:59] Vista packaging for example, is pretty top notch -- but notice how well it integrates with the other aspects [06:59] that's a big handicap of FOSS [07:00] Handicap? That doesn't do the people with handicaps justice. [07:00] It is a crippling and degenerative disease. [07:00] http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa511258.aspx [07:00] take a look at that page [07:01] despite the rather 'suspicious' theory [07:01] it is well documented [07:02] http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa511258.aspx [07:02] its a no brainer [07:02] Hmm wee need a similar document, for devs who would use a guideline for user experience :) [07:02] that would take getting everyone on the 'same page' [07:03] which is completely difficult in terms of execution with the current established process. [07:03] I fear that this probably will NOT happen [07:03] until a community team demonstrates the power of the process. [07:03] sure, damn, i must go to work no. Nice to meet u , thx for conversation and hope to see u soon here [07:03] :) [07:03] Chat soon nysosym [07:03] take care. [07:04] have a nice day ;) === dborg [n=daniel@e182056067.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [07:13] gulp, how much long did you chat? [07:13] ;) === darkmatter [n=darkmatt@unaffiliated/darkmatter] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === PingunZ [n=PingunZ@190.187-240-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === darkmatter [n=darkmatt@unaffiliated/darkmatter] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === Seveas [n=seveas@ubuntu/member/seveas] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === ryanakca [n=ryan@ubuntu/member/ryanakca] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === Tessa [n=rene@e178227050.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [09:36] does someone know a channel where i can ask graphic-related questions which came up in the use of ubuntu dapper? this certainly aint the right place for such things is it? [09:37] its about mass editing via commandline [09:37] yes [09:37] which channel would this be? [09:37] Tessa: probably this one [09:37] not that we can do anything [09:37] nor that anyone in a position to implement changes would listen [09:38] good. ;) [09:38] that said, we might be able to forward your thoughts to the proper people [09:38] do you know a way to desaturate a bunch of files recursively thorught a structure of folders with one command? something like batch-desaturating? [09:39] Of course [09:39] how could this be done? [09:39] In fact, in doing so you will perhaps learn one of the most powerful image processing tools available anywhere... [09:39] Unfortunately, there are no gui's for it [09:39] www.imagemagick.org [09:39] let me guess: image magik? [09:39] (well there are but they stink) [09:39] ah i ve heard about it [09:39] of course [09:40] ;) [09:40] imagemagick can do image manipulation on a scale that would shock photoshop [09:40] better algorithms [09:40] better speed and cross architecture [09:40] i strongly recommend it. [09:40] couple it with a bit of simple bash scripting and you have quite a powerhouse. [09:41] so i guess batch-desaturating is one of the easy-as-pie features if one knows how to do it with imagemagick? [09:41] Actually [09:42] Imagemagick is one of the few projects that seems to put a heavy stress on documentation [09:42] If you are comfy with the command line [09:42] You should be able to execute image wizardry in a few mere moments. [09:42] As far as i can judge from what i see at the page it seems to be kind of a programming language to me newbie ;) [09:42] Well perhaps I could step you through it? [09:43] I didnt dare to ask but now that you offer it i cant say no ;) [09:43] let me first install it [09:43] The syntax is always the same "imagemagickproggie_you_want" inputfile outputfile [09:43] sudo apt-get install imagemagick [09:44] thats sounds pretty easy so far [09:44] i guess the trouble starts whith the recursive processing of the folder structure [09:44] ok installed [09:44] yes... [09:45] the good news is that imagemagick handles wildcards very well [09:45] so you won't need to script [09:45] although for recursion, i suspect you will need to. [09:45] great i ve never been a script person yet [09:47] what would be the best way to start then? [09:47] create an empty document? [09:47] well first learn how [09:47] to achieve what you want on the command line [09:47] iwth imagemagick [09:47] as the order of your modifiers will affect your output [09:47] so you don't want to dive right into scripting just yet. [09:48] thats true [09:48] so first try to execute a desaturate on a directory [09:48] using a wildcard scenario [09:48] note that when you select this link (command line tools): http://www.imagemagick.org/script/command-line-tools.php [09:49] something like convert colors *.png *.png? [09:49] you will see there is no 'imagemagick' program [09:49] it is actually subdivided into several different tools [09:49] learn what each one does [09:49] before you learn more [09:49] not so much what each program CAN do, but rather loosely what it can do [09:49] and yes, you are already there... [09:49] the tool we want is convert [09:49] http://www.imagemagick.org/script/convert.php [09:50] -modulate value vary the brightness, saturation, and hue [09:50] the ONLY issue with the docs is that they will often reference other areas of the docs, as they will only explain things in one area [09:50] and they aren't cross linked at parts... [09:51] so for example, geometry will only be explained in one place. [09:51] in order [09:51] read and reread and crosslink is the way to go then. [09:51] *crossread [09:51] convert -modulate ,, [09:51] so [09:51] say we had 2000 pngs in a dir [09:52] we simply type [09:52] convert -modulate 0,80,0 *.png [09:52] erk [09:52] convert -modulate 0,80,0 *.png output.png [09:52] and that will create numbered outputs [09:52] with 0 change in BRIGHT [09:52] 80% original sat (-20%) [09:52] and 0 change in HUE [09:52] follow me? [09:53] also [09:53] i believe that hte order might affect it in this case... [09:53] it might be [09:53] lets say i'd like to keep the original filenames and dont want to have copies. i would use mogrify instead of convert right? [09:53] convert *.png -modulate 0,80,0 output.png [09:53] mogrify will do that yes. [09:53] this will be a breeze for you... it appears you have already gotten the idea. [09:54] so far it sounds pretty good. [09:54] i wouldn't advise mogrifying until you are certain you have what you want. [09:54] pretty good is an understatement... [09:54] i would copy the whole folder before mogrifying [09:54] you need to see exactly what it can do to appreciate it... [09:54] sure [09:54] or just convert with output [09:54] and destination [09:54] probably faster [09:54] also [09:54] i think i have a slight hint of an impression and really i am amazed already [09:54] you will want to know perhaps the most valuable command parameter: [09:54] -monitor! [09:54] as in convert -monitor blah blah blah [09:55] what does it do? [09:55] this will spew output so that you can rest assured that imagemagick isn't just sitting there. [09:55] some processes take a long time [09:55] ok. [09:55] and monitor offers a rather verbose description of what is going on. [09:55] as you can see, it has nothing to do with your monitor [09:55] ;) [09:55] let me have a quick try on what you teached me already [09:57] you also might want to try your passes on a few sample files first [09:57] just to make sure you get the values proper [09:57] before you batch -- but i assume that is an obvious step [09:58] yep it is [09:58] i just grabbed some testing files and i am trying now to mogrify [09:59] ok it worked. not what i wanted it to look like but it worked [09:59] http://www.imagemagick.org/script/command-line-options.php#sigmoidal [10:00] yes... so you might want to figure out exactly what you want [10:00] imagemagick has about a gazillion different algs for all sorts of things [10:00] then you multiply that by the fact that you can do channel based changes etc [10:00] and you get about a ga ga gazillion different options [10:00] truely amazing. [10:01] http://www.imagemagick.org/script/command-line-options.php#channel [10:01] that is handy [10:02] it really is the end all in terms of functionality [10:02] i just realized that i actually have only 8 folders filled with pngs. so i think we can save the scripting part for another time. it will take some time to figure out how i get what i want [10:02] but it takes a bit of learning as it simply can do so much [10:02] yes... [10:02] there are a few very clunky guis out there [10:02] that might get you close to what you want [10:02] then you can figure out the smaller details by reading the docs on a particular pass. [10:02] if i might ask, what are you trying to do exactly? [10:03] i ll go the try & error lane first and when i am too desperate i might have a look at these guis [10:03] Tessa? [10:03] Can you post a quick sample to imagebin? [10:03] I am having an icon theme here which i want to desat completely [10:03] and try to describe what you want? [10:03] Erm... as in turn it greyscale? [10:04] Or just nerf the saturation slightly? [10:04] so i have 800 pngs and as easy and maybe silly as it sounds i want them b/w [10:04] Then try a greyscale [10:04] or monochrome [10:04] you are basically looking at greyscaling with imagemagick [10:04] changing the image mode from rgb to greyscale? [10:04] hold on... :) [10:06] http://www.imagemagick.org/script/command-line-options.php#colorspace [10:06] ;) [10:06] there you go [10:06] yay that looks good [10:06] Choices are: CMYK, GRAY, HSL, HWB, OHTA, Rec601Luma, Rec709Luma, RGB, Transparent, XYZ, YCbCr, YIQ, YPbPr, or YUV. [10:06] and yes, you can finely tune it if you want more control [10:06] in particular, you could try -separate [10:06] separate an image channel into a grayscale image. Specify the channel with -channel. [10:07] again, the real power is the versatility of combining the functionality [10:07] it is _damn_ powerful. [10:07] and it can handle svg too... although YMMV with inkscape output. [10:07] yes and it feels like starting to learn calculating from scratch ;) but i guess once one is used to it and know what can be done how its magic [10:08] well i have a general rule [10:08] i just 'accept' that imagemagick can do what i want it to [10:08] the rest is figuring out how [10:08] although, again, the docs are pretty solid. [10:08] there are nuances you will find like 'montage -tile 4' etc. [10:08] thank you troy for giving a newbie a lesson like this and a really worthful insight in what is possible with this tool! [10:09] montage is a great tool too if you are doing batches [10:09] you might want to try something like: [10:09] montage -monitor -geometry 200 -label %f -frame 2 files.png [10:10] or smaller if you are dealing with icons for example [10:10] say you are iconing them at perhaps 48x48 [10:10] then try [10:10] what will this do? [10:10] montage -monitor -geometry 48 -tile 20 -label %f -frame 2 files.png [10:10] try it :) [10:10] very handy [10:10] in fact, i dare say that you will use it all the time on batches... [10:10] it creates a contact sheet [10:10] of your work [10:11] all to the same sizes [10:11] if you specify half of the geometry ( -geometry x ) [10:11] wow. let me have a try [10:11] if you do a -geometry 20, it will always maintain aspect ratio to 20 wide [10:11] if you do 20x30 it will stretch [10:12] -tile controls the number of tiles you want in your montage [10:12] so -tile 5 indicates you want FIVE mini thumbs across [10:12] by whatever long [10:12] you can also omit it and it will generate a rectangular overall shape of hundreds of montage elements. [10:12] -frame gives it a border [10:13] -label lets you put in a filename under each image in the contact sheet [10:13] hmm, its not giving me an output file. does it create the output file automatically ot do i have to specify one? [10:13] %f is an escape sequence indicating 'filename' [10:13] oops [10:13] no output :) [10:13] montage -monitor -geometry 48 -tile 20 -label %f -frame 2 files.png contacsheet.png [10:13] that's better [10:13] sorry... [10:14] dont worry. it still wont. maybe if i put the soecified files right after montage? [10:14] no you shouldn't need to [10:15] my syntax is probably botched somewhere... are they pngs? [10:15] yes [10:15] its resizing, mogrifying and tiling and montaging each to 100% [10:15] montage -monitor -geometry 48 -tile 20 -label %f -frame 2 *.png contactsheet.png [10:15] yes the geometry handles the size [10:16] what size are the sources? [10:16] 48x48? [10:16] icons? [10:16] 128 [10:16] too large? [10:16] so geometry will pull it down to 48 [10:16] it seems it should work fine then, no? [10:16] montage -monitor -geometry 48 -tile 20 -label %f -frame 2 *.png contactsheet.png [10:17] that SHOULD [10:17] is that what you are using? [10:17] montage -monitor -geometry 48 -tile 20 -label %f -frame 2 *.png contactsheet.png [10:17] try getting rid of the clutter for now... [10:17] try [10:17] exactly the same [10:17] montage -monitor -geometry 48 *.png contactsheet.png [10:17] and see if that works [10:18] erk by the way [10:18] once you create a contact sheet in png format [10:18] be careful [10:18] because subsequent montages that grab *.png will montage the contact sheet into the mix [10:18] ;) [10:18] hmm. still no output file. [10:19] good afternoon to all [10:19] good evening from germany [10:19] greets darkmatter [10:19] hiya troy_s Tessa [10:19] Tessa: you are inside the dir with the pngs in question correct? [10:19] right [10:19] i checked that 3 times [10:19] and monitor is showing output? [10:20] as in grabbing the files and scaling them etc? [10:20] yes [10:20] and when it poops you back out to the command line [10:20] did you try typing [10:20] display contactsheet.png [10:20] display is a handy little cmd line xviewer proggie that comes with imagemagick. [10:20] troy_s: alright you got me [10:21] there it is [10:21] did i lose you? [10:21] ahh... :) === msikma [n=Msikma@s55933ad4.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [10:21] no i lost myself ;) [10:21] it is always the devil in the tiny details. [10:21] greets msikma [10:21] anyway troy_s thank you really a lot for this lesson! [10:21] what i will tend to do if i am batching is make sure that the output contact sheet gets jettisonned [10:21] to a sep dir [10:21]