Loren, I share your frustration. Your description of the YEM discussions mirrored what I saw and heard at the Pacific Union Conference constituency meeting in Phoenix last August. People speaking from the dais and at microphones from the floor were talking past each other, around each other in a circular firing squad, arguing their own preconceptions, often, instead of the real issues at hand. I've seen this time and time again at these large church conclaves. I'm not sure what the answer is to achieving clarity.