Joe Rogan: Comedy, Controversy, Aliens, UFOs, Putin, CIA, and Freedom | Lex Fridman Podcast #300
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EPISODE LINKS:
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Full episodes playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrAXtmErZgOdP_8GztsuKi9nrraNbKKp4
Clips playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrAXtmErZgOeciFP3CBCIEElOJeitOr41

OUTLINE:
0:00 - Introduction
1:02 - Discipline
5:05 - Controversy
25:22 - UFOs and aliens
35:33 - Intelligence agencies
40:57 - Trust
46:20 - Greatest comedians
1:04:15 - Childhood
1:11:45 - Advice for young people
1:22:21 - Relationships
1:26:59 - Putin, Ukraine, and Russia

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 The following is a conversation with Joe Rogan, his second time on this podcast. He has inspired me for many years with his conversations to be a better and kinder person and has now been doing so as a friend. There's no one I would rather talk to on this 300th episode of this podcast on the 4th of July, both the anniversary of this country's declaration of independence and the anniversary of my immigrating here to the United States. A silly kid who couldn't speak English and could never imagine that he would be so damn lucky as to live the life I've lived and to feel the love I've felt from the amazing people along the way. From the bottom of my heart, thank you. I love you all. This is the Lex Friedman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, here's Joe Rogan. Charles Bukowski said something in a poem called Style about art. He defined art saying, style is the answer to everything, a fresh way to approach a dull or dangerous thing. To do a dull thing with style is preferable to doing a dangerous thing without it. To do a dangerous thing with style is what I call art. What do you think he meant by that? Do you agree with this? A dangerous thing with style is art. He said bullfighting can be art, boxing can be art, loving can be art. Have you ever made love and it was art? No, okay, I'm not asking. Every time, bro. Opening a can of sardines can be art. I think there's something to that. Yeah, I think I call the way people live life art. I wrote a forward to my friend Cameron Haynes' book, which is right now the number one selling audio book in the world. One of the things that I said was that he practices an art that very few people appreciate and it's the art of the maximized life. The discipline that he displays in his life and through his practices and all the things that he does, it's so difficult to live the way he lives that for someone like me who understands it and knows what he's doing and appreciates it and appreciates how insanely difficult it is to have a full-time job and run ultra marathons, get up at four o'clock in the morning, run a full marathon before work. That's the kind of shit that he does when he's training for these 240 mile runs, at the same time being a father, a husband, having this full-time job, also being the best bow hunter on earth, lifting weights. How does a person do this? In a way, discipline is art too. Yes, discipline is art. I think it is because it's beautiful for me to see. When I see someone who's really truly disciplined, like a David Goggins, someone who just truly maximizes the grind, I feel like there's an art to that. There's an art to kindness. There's people that are really kind and really sweet. When I'm around them, it's beautiful. There's an art to them. No matter what. The world can throw a bunch of shit at you, but through all that- Some people are just great at it. It's a thing that you learn how to do. It's pleasing for other people to see. That I think is where the art is. Well, I think Bukowski also said, and I'm just a Bukowski quote generator today. I love him. I love him very much too. He's a dark and troubled and fascinating and a weird person. Like Hunter S. Thompson. He said, what matters most is how you walk through the fire, I think. There's a bit of the Ken Haynes in that too, David Goggins in that too. What do you think he meant by that? How you walk through the fire. You can walk through the fire complaining along the way, or you can walk through the fire and create an example for everyone else so that the trials and tribulations of their own life seem trivial because they're comparing themselves to the way you handle things. Or the way you handle things with grace and dignity and discipline can show other people that they can handle their own life this way. There's beauty in that. There really is. There's so much inspiration to be gathered from other people if you're a charitable person. If you're charitable and compassionate and you can look at people, even people that I don't like. I try to look at the best aspects of how they live their life and recognize those aspects, admire them, give them credit for it. There's something that we can all get out of watching the way other people live their lives. I got a chance to see you walk through the fire a little bit privately and publicly this year in January. I got to ask you about that. There's generic conversations about cancel culture and all those kinds of things, but as a human being, this to me is fascinating. There's the N-word highlight video. There's the criticism of the different guests, whatever the side is on the COVID pandemic. You... There's a mass amount of attack on you. Outside of being a public persona, outside of being a comedian, podcast, you're also a human being. How did you survive that? How did you walk through that fire? You seem to do it with grace. I used mushrooms. That was one way I did it. Really? As Andrew Huberman would say, what was your protocol? I took... It was probably less than a gram every day. Every day. Yeah. I did a lot of really hard working out, but also... There's a great benefit to going through anything difficult. If you're aware, in advance and during, anything that's going to happen that's very difficult and troubling, the great benefit is it gives you an opportunity to grow. Gives you an opportunity to express yourself under pressure, to show your character, to show who you truly are. And it gives you an opportunity to see how you handle a very difficult situation. It also was fascinating as a person that's involved in media, because what we're doing right now is media, even though it seems... Podcasts seem like we're just having a conversation, and they are. In a sense, it's the purest form of media, because what you're doing is you're doing it without any fanfare, you're doing it without any... There's no executives looming over your head or network or big meetings about ratings or any of that stuff, but it is media. What I got to see is the wiring under the machine of how the rest of media would try to take me out. When CNN would just be playing things over and over and back and forth, it was wild to watch. What was also wild to watch was people's responses, because I gained two million subscribers during that time. The podcast never got bigger. It just kept growing. It had never been bigger than it had been at the end of all of it. It just made it bigger. And ultimately, if you've fucked up in the past or made mistakes or done something wrong, that gives you an opportunity to discuss those things and to say, to apologize if you feel the need to apologize, and also to just address it. People under that kind of pressure, it's an opportunity for them to understand how you think about things honestly, how you actually honestly think about things. There's no more honesty that you get out of a person than when that person is under extreme duress. I mean, it's horrible to say that it's a benefit, that it's a good thing that it happened, but it was a benefit. Can you see how it can break a person? I've gotten a chance to experience small attacks here and there, ones that get to the core of things. Even just talking about Russia and Ukraine to Stephen Cotkin or Oliver Stone, looking at different perspectives, you gain, for me, feeling like a sizable number of people who really don't like you and say things about you that may be cut deep for a reason I don't understand why. It's just my own psychology. It's also because you can't defend yourself because they're saying it and you're not there and you don't have any opportunity for a rebuttal. If you do have a rebuttal, you're doing it publicly and you're opening it up to the whole world to chime in. There's a general tendency that people have towards negativity when they're interacting with strangers online, especially about controversial subjects. Even if it's only 10% of the people, it's one out of 10. That's a lot. That's a lot of negativity when you're dealing with thousands and thousands of tweets. I think, maybe I'm just a very self-critical person, but I hear their words and I probably somewhere deep inside see the truth and the criticism in some aspect of the criticism. That's why it hurts. One aspect of you, but when you're reading it, it's boiled down to this one thing as if that one thing defines you totally. If you've made a mistake, if you've said something that you shouldn't have said, or if you said something and maybe you should have considered it more carefully giving the gravity of the situation, that's just a part of being a person. It's also part of being a person where you're communicating with things publicly in real time thinking out loud, which is what we do. It's complex and most people don't do it. You're going to have genuine hot takes where people just see what you said and go, why did he say that? Fuck him. He doesn't know anything about it. He doesn't live in Ukraine. There's people that are going to have takes on that in that way. Then there's also going to be these disingenuous people who just use any kind of controversial topic or subject as an opportunity for them to get clicks or views. The number of those people can be quite large. Quite large. Going back to, do you think it can destroy a person? I worry about this. You're in many ways, but in this way, an inspiration that it didn't seem to have destroyed you. I kept doing shows. I kept doing standup. I ignored everything. I didn't read any of it. It is possible to just ignore it? 100%. Yes. Yeah. I ignored it all. I knew it was there. Your family didn't bring it up. My family was very aware of it. My wife was aware of it. What was the conversation like? If your wife is aware of it, is there a rule? Pretend it's not happening? No. Just like what? I tell her, don't ever read articles. Past the green beans. I don't ever let her read negative articles to me. I don't want them. I don't care. I go, that's a person's opinion. You take a person's opinion, you write it down. It doesn't give it any more relevance. That person could have had that opinion in silence. They could have had it with some friends at dinner. They don't like me, whatever. I don't want to read it. I don't want to absorb it. I don't even know them, especially if I'm not there. Especially if it's some biased and it's not an objective opinion of me. They have a narrative and they want to stick to that narrative and they want to write an article and they piece it all together, make you a piece of shit. That's their prerogative. They're completely allowed to do that. I shouldn't absorb that. I shouldn't take that in. You're not supposed to be taking in the opinion of the world. You're supposed to be taking in the opinion of small groups of people that you encounter so that you get an understanding of how you make them feel. Then maybe you say to yourself, maybe I come across too rude or maybe I come across too insensitive or maybe I could do better in this way or that way. That's how we shape our personalities and that's how we develop our social skills. When the people don't know you and they have this distorted narrative of you and there's fucking millions of people, there's so many people, you can't be sane. I think there's billions now actually. I mean, millions of people that are communicating about something. During the height of the attempt to cancel me or whatever that is, I don't know how many people were involved in that. People take this kind of stuff seriously, but the problem is the false narratives take hold and then you have meetings, you have groups, it builds on top of each other and there's this outrage and then it reaches you at some point and it can just have these destructive effects. It can, but it also sometimes doesn't. In my case, it didn't. It didn't work. What lessons did you draw from that? Mushrooms, exercise? Mushrooms and exercise. Exercise is critical. I don't think the mushrooms by themselves would have worked, but that's the thing that I use for everything is the brutal exercise. My exercise routines are horrible and because of that, everything else is easier. I create my own bullshit and my own bullshit is so much harder and it's not just that. It's also sauna and cold plunge and torture sessions. When you endure those, it makes enduring other things much easier and it's also an understanding of what's happening. You have to know media. You have to understand what the hot take, YouTube, social media, podcast, ecosphere is doing. If they're talking about, Lex Friedman said this and we have to comment on that and Lex gets canceled in all capital letters on a YouTube clip. You watch that, you're fucking crazy. What are you doing? Absorbing all this negativity? It's not good for you. You are you. You know you and you know generally if you've made a mistake and generally if people are upset with you. You posted this awesome video on your Instagram of a woman who was being interviewed in late 1920s maybe. She's close to 100 years old. She's lived through the Civil War, through World War I. She was at the time living through the early days of the Great Depression. I was just looking back, what have we as a human civilization in recent times survived, especially in the United States? You're talking about the two World Wars in the 20th century, the Great Depression, the Spanish Flu, the pandemic at the beginning of the 20th century. What do we do in the United States? 9-11. If you think of what are the traumatic events that shook our world, it's 9-11. It made us rethink our place in the world. The pandemic. Pandemic is a huge one. One of the bigger ones because it also accelerated and exacerbated our anxiety, which people have a certain level of anxiety already, especially sedentary people. They have a very high level of anxiety already because I don't think they're giving their body what it needs. Your body has certain requirements in terms of movement. When you deny your body those requirements, I think there's a general level of anxiety that exists in almost everyone. Then you have people, obviously, that have mental health issues. That also exacerbates the anxiety. The lockdown exacerbated the anxiety. Losing loved ones to the pandemic exacerbated anxiety. Then there was the division, the different schools of thought, the people that were never going to get vaccinated no matter what. I ain't trusting it. People that thought there was microchips in there. People that thought that Fauci's the demon. There was a lot. There's also political leanings. The right-wing people tended to not want to be vaccinated. Whereas the left-wing people, for whatever reason, all of a sudden are trusting pharmaceutical companies explicitly. It was weird. It was a weird time. I think over time, as it gets analyzed and we break it down, it's going to be one of the weirder moments for shaping human culture and unfortunately for throwing gasoline on this already burning fire of conflict between the various factions of thought in this country. It's already a weird time post-Trump. The Trump era is also going to be one of the weirder times when people look back historically about the division in this country. He's such a polarizing figure that so many people felt like they could abandon their own ethics and morals and principles just to attack him and anybody who supports him because he is an existential threat to democracy itself. Don't you think it's not a cause but maybe like a symptom? You said it got real weird. Maybe it's going to get weirder. Yeah, I think it's going to get weirder. He's going to run again. You think he wins? Well, he's running against a dead man. Biden shakes hands with people that aren't even there when he gets off stage. I think he's seeing ghosts. You see him on Jimmy Kimmel the other day? No. Well, he was just rambling. If he was anyone else, if he was a Republican, if that was Donald Trump doing that, every fucking talk show would be screaming for him to be off the air. By the way, I'm not a Trump supporter in any way, shape or form. I've had the opportunity to have him on my show more than once. I've said no every time. I don't want to help him. I'm not interested in helping him. The night is still young. We'll see. If I have him on, the night is still young? You think I'll have him on? I think you'll have him on. Really? Why do you think that? Because you'll have Putin on? And you're competitive as fuck. No. I think ultimately, I mean, you've had a lot of people that I think you may otherwise be skeptical, would I have a good conversation, which I think is your metric. You don't care about politics. So can I have a good conversation? And I think you had people like Kanye on, for example, and you had a great conversation with him. I think you... Yeah, but Kanye is an artist. But Kanye doing well or not doing well doesn't change the course of our country. Yeah, but do you really bear the responsibility of the course of our country based on a conversation? I think you can revitalize and rehabilitate someone's image in a way that is pretty shocking. Look at the way people look at Alex Jones now, because Alex Jones has been on my podcast a few times. Yeah, how do they... Which direction? The people that have watched those podcasts think he's hilarious. And they think that he definitely fucked up with that whole Sandy Hook thing, but he's right more than he's wrong. And he's not an evil guy. He's just a guy who's had some psychotic breaks in his life. He's had some genuine mental health issues that he's addressed. He's had some serious bouts of alcoholism, some serious bouts of substance abuse, and they've contributed to some very poor thinking. But if you know the guy, if you get to know him, like I have, I've known him for more than 20 years, and if you know him on podcasts, you realize he is genuinely trying to unearth some things that are genuinely disturbing for most people. Like this is a guy that was telling me about Epstein's Island fucking decade ago, at least. He was telling me about, I was like, what? You're telling me there's a place where they bring elites to compromise them with underage girls and they film them. Really? Like what? Cut the fuck out of here. Like, no, President Clinton's been there. Everyone's been there. Like, what? It sounds like nonsense. And not only is it true, but people keep getting fucking murdered for it. Did you see that latest Clinton advisor that got murdered about it? Yep. Yeah. Hung with an extension cord, shot himself in the chest 30 miles from his house, and they're calling it a suicide. And now even Elon Musk is asking, where's the clientele list? Yeah. We should probably see who's been to that island. Yeah, we should probably see who's been to that island. And there's probably more of those kind of things out there that haven't been exposed. Yeah, but sort of to push back, you had those conversations with Alex Jones. Wouldn't you be able to have the same kind of conversation with Donald Trump? Yeah, that's the problem. No, it's not the problem. You revealed that Alex Jones is a human being. He's fucked up. He has demons in his head. He's obviously chaotic all over the place, but there's some wisdom to the perspective he takes on the world, even though he is often full of shit. He is able to predict certain things that very few people are willing to bring up. So isn't Trump the same way? Fucked up person, egomaniac, whatever personality things you can talk about. Isn't it worthwhile to lay it out? If you listen to interviews of Trump, who has the balls to call him out on his bullshit? Chris Wall stood. No, calling out somebody on their bullshit is easy when you're just being adversarial. But as a person who is genuinely empathetically trying to understand, I think you're really good at that. You pull them in. I don't know if he would genuinely be there. You know what I'm saying? I think he would be putting on a performance. You don't think he can break through that in 30 minutes? I'd need more time than that. And he doesn't do any drugs. That's the thing about Alex. You can get Alex high, get him drunk, and he'll start talking about interdimensional child molesters. And then you get the real Alex. Maybe you have somebody else on as well to introduce chaos, like Alex. No, no, no, no. I would have to be just me and him. That would be a focused thing. I would have to really take time with Trump. But also, I'm not well versed enough politically to know all of the corruption that's been alleged and to understand the whole Russiagate stuff. What's real? How much of it? It's clear that there is more than one organization that's involved in communicating with Russia before the 2016 elections. It's pretty clear that the Clinton administration was involved. It's pretty clear that the Trump administration had some communication with some people in Russia. It's pretty clear that Hunter Biden had some very suspicious dealings in Ukraine. There's a lot going on there, man. It's hard for anybody to parse. It's really hard for anybody, and especially to have an objective assessment of exactly what's going on, and then to be able to do that and broadcast it publicly. That's quite a project. And I think if you really want to do that correctly, it's something that I would have to research for a long time. And I don't have that kind of time. Not for, maybe for certain people that you're really curious about. You have that kind of time for Bob Lazar. Yes, yes. But maybe not for Donald Trump. No, that's different. Because Bob Lazar, what he's talking about, I wanted to know, with the Bob Lazar thing, I wanted to know, first of all, I want to be around him and see if I could smell bullshit. Did you? No, I didn't, man. That was what's weird about it. Not only did I not smell bullshit, I went over all of his interviews. He hasn't done a lot, but he's done enough. And he's done them over the course of 30 plus years. And it's alarming how consistent his story is, which is really weird when you think about you're talking about back engineering alien crafts and working on a top secret government test site that's carved into the side of a mountain and to camouflage it from satellites. It's such a wacky story. But the guy really did work at Los Alamos Labs. He really is a propulsion expert. He really is a scientist. Did he really work on back engineering UFOs? I don't know. But the way he described their motion is exactly like what's been observed by some of these pilots that have these videos that they've captured. And I just love that NASA, I've been hearing from a bunch of folks who they're legitimately funding research and there's people really taking this seriously of UFO sightings, investigating them, adding more and more sensors to collect data from just observing at higher and higher definitions. It's cool to finally see that. And he was one of the early people, whether he's full of shit or not, that forced people to start taking these topics seriously. Or at least force people to have conversations about them and maybe attempt to debunk them because it seems so preposterous, but then get sucked down the rabbit hole and start going, hmm, maybe. The thing is like the Fermi paradox, like where are they? And when you take into account just the sheer raw numbers, the vast majority of people objectively assume that there is life out there. The vast majority. Well, if you really take into account what we understand about the universe itself, what we understand about the concept of infinity and the way Neil deGrasse Tyson has explained it to me is that not only are there life forms out there, but there's you. You are out there. Infinity is so large that Lex Friedman exists and doesn't just exist, but exists an infinite number of times. Like the amount of interactions that cells and molecules, the same exact interactions that have happened here on Earth have happened in the exact same order an infinite number of times in the cosmos. Well, first of all, it's not certain that that's true. It's possible. It's possible. Like Sean Carroll, you know, especially with quantum mechanics, based on certain interpretation of quantum mechanics, that's very possible. But the question is, can you access those universes? Right. And so- How far away are they? The more sort of specific practical question is this local pocket of the universe, our galaxy or neighboring galaxies, are there aliens there? What do they look like? Are they- Right. So you can have this panspermia idea where a much larger, like daddy civilization, like rolled by and just planted a few aliens at a similar time. Like Prometheus. Yes. A different, you know, throughout the galaxy. And those are the ones we might be interacting with. They're all kind of dumb as we are relatively, you know, maybe a few million years apart. And then those are the ones we're interacting with. And then we have a chance to actually connect with them and communicate with them. Or it could be like much more wide open. And you have these gigantic alien civilizations that are expanding very, very quickly. And the interesting thing is when you look up at the sky and you see the stars, that's light from those stars. We might not be seeing the alien civilizations until they're already here. Meaning- Right. Like you start expanding. Once you get really good at expanding, you're going to be expanding very close to the speed of light. So right now we don't see much in the sky, but there could be one night, one day we wake up and it's just like everywhere and they're here. Right. Right. Because the amount of time the light takes to reach us. Yeah. And then the thing that I've been really fascinated by is these alternative forms of transportation that they're discussing. Like the ability to harness wormholes and the ability to do things that a type three civilization is capable of. I had Michio Kaku on my podcast recently. Fantastic. Love that guy. He's so good at taking extremely complex concepts and boiling them down for digestion and saying them in a way that other people can appreciate. And not being hesitant about saying wild, crazy shit that's out there, but grounded in what's actually possible. Yeah. He's all in on this UFO phenomenon now. He's like now the burden of proof is to people for people to come up with some sort of a conventional explanation for these things. He goes, because these things are defying all the concepts of physics that we currently know in terms of what our capabilities are and propulsion systems and so many other things that what we know about what current science is capable of reproducing as far as what we know. The problem is like these military projects that are top secret. Like how much money do they have? They have a lot of money. But is it possible, and maybe you could speak to this, is it possible that there could be some propulsion systems that have been developed and implemented that are far beyond just the simple burning of rocket fuel, pushing the fire out the back which forces the rocket at extreme speeds forward, that's something that does harness gravity, something that can distort space and time and can make travel from one point to another like preposterously fast? Well, not only is it possible, I think it's likely that that kind of stuff would be kept a secret. Yeah. The only thing you see about the way either if it's contractors like Lockheed Martin or if it's DOD, the actual Department of Defense, they operate in complete secrecy. Just even looking at the history of the stealth fighter, just even stealth technology was kept a secret for a very, very long time. And not until you're ready to use it and need to use it does it become public and not officially public, it's being detected out in the wild. So there's going to be a process where you're secretly testing it and that might creep up, which is maybe what we're seeing. And then it's waiting for the next big war, the next big reason to use the thing. And so yeah, there's definitely technologies in that. There might not be propulsion technologies, there could be AI surveillance technologies, there could be different kinds of stealth drones, it could be also in cyberspace, like cyber war weapons, all that kind of stuff that they're obviously going to become secret. I'm very skeptical lately. And the reason why I'm skeptical is the government keeps talking about it. The Pentagon keeps talking about it, NASA keeps talking about it. In which direction are you skeptical? I'm skeptical that they're aliens. I think most likely it's a smokescreen and most likely these are some sort of incredibly advanced drones that they've developed that they want to pretend don't exist. That seems the more likely scenario because otherwise my take is what's the benefit of them discussing these things? What's the benefit of them discussing these things openly? The way they described it, off-world crafts not made from this earth, why? Why would they tell us that? I mean, unless there's an imminent danger of us being invaded and they want to prepare people so they don't freak out as much, like maybe freak them out a little bit, say that publicly, the New York Times article, the Pentagon discussing it, all these different things happening. Test the waters. Well, let people know that this is a thing. My take is like that. I don't think they do that. I don't think they tell us. I think the government has a lot of contempt for the citizens. I really do. I think they have contempt for our intelligence. They have contempt for our need to know things. I also think they think that they are running us. It's not we're all in this together and the government works for the people and the government is of the people. I don't think they think that way. Yeah. The basic idea is you can't trust the populace to govern itself because we're a bunch of idiots. Yeah. I think that's accurate. Well, they're not wrong, but they're also idiots, power hungry idiots. Yeah. I don't think everyone's an idiot, but I think there are enough idiots that it becomes a real problem if you're completely honest about everything you do. You don't want to let everybody weigh in about things that are incredibly complex and that most people are ignorant of. On top of that, there's this machine of intelligence. I've recently been reading a lot about the KGB, about the FSB. Several things sparked my curiosity. One, I'm traveling to Ukraine and to Moscow. Because of that, I started to ask practical questions of myself, just travel and all those kinds of things. I started reading a lot about the KGB. Jack Barsky has a book on this. I talked to him. You start to realize, you probably looked into some of this, but you just start to realize the scale of surveillance and manipulation. Now, a lot of them also talk about the incompetence of those organizations. The usual bureaucracy creeps in. But the point is, it seems like there's no line they're not willing to cross for the purpose of gathering intelligence, for the purpose of controlling people in order to gather intelligence. Now, this is MI6, FSB. There's not much information about the FSB or the GRU, but the KGB. We're always like 20 years behind or more on the action information. I start to wonder. I have not officially been contacted by any intelligence agency, but I started to wonder, well, is there somebody I know that's doing that undercover CIA or undercover FSB, undercover anything? You probably do. Have you asked yourself this question? Yeah, for sure. Yeah, people that have been on my podcast. Yeah, for sure. Do you think there was actually a guest that may have been? 100%. Oh, man. Who'd you know? I have suspicions. Do you care? Is this? I mean, it depends on what they're attempting to do, right? If I felt like there was some deception involved and they were trying to use the podcast to manipulate a narrative in a deceptive way to trick people into things, yeah, I would care. But this is exactly what... Those are the kind of things they do. They do plant narratives. Yeah. I would imagine if you have the number one podcast in the world, that people would want to infiltrate that. Yeah, there's probably meetings in all major intelligence agencies about, okay, what are the large platforms? How do we spread the message? Yeah. Well, I mean, that's the thing that really emerged when we were talking about during my cancellation, that there's a clear... There's no objective analysis of this in mainstream media. There's clear narratives that they're trying to push forward to, whether it's to promote certain ideas or to diminish the power and reach of people who are mavericks or people who aren't connected to a system that you can't compromise. That's where it gets dangerous, right? Where it gets dangerous is when someone has the largest reach but is also completely detached and clearly is independent in the sense of independent thinking, has on whoever he wants. But your mind can still be manipulated. I guess I can. I mean, I guess everybody can be manipulated a certain way. I manipulate my own mind, I'm sure too. But I also spend a lot of time thinking about what I think. I don't just accept things, like the UFO thing. I was all in for a while and now I'm like, man, something smells fishy. And then I'm thinking like, here's my problem with the UFO thing. I want it to be real so bad. That's my problem with it. I'm such a sucker. I want it to be real so bad. And that's a problem for me because I'm aware of it. And so then I stop and think about what is my desire for UFO truth to be exposed? Well, it's because it's fun. That's what it is. So I have a desire for it to be real. And I mean, I've talked to a bunch of folks about this, those with connection with DOD. And they do draw lines between people that are full of shit and people who are not. There's a lot of people in the public sphere that they say are full of shit. Yeah, for sure. And then you have to kind of tell the difference. Yeah, CNN. Watch them talk. Well, I mean, even on the UFO topic, there's certain individuals that are like, okay, they're just like using this. In fact, like people who are not full of shit are often very quiet, which is why, you know, even Bob Lazar is an interesting story because he was trying to be quiet for the longest time. Well, he was worried about his own life, according to Bob, and that's why he went public with it. And initially, the first videos he did with George Knapp, they hit his identity. And then he felt like that wasn't enough. And he really needed to expose his own identity just to protect his life, which is a great story. You know, so you got to go, well, that seems so juicy. I want to buy into it. And that's where I get nervous. You don't know. You don't know who to trust. Right. Exactly. How do you figure out who to trust in your life? You're Joe Rogan. A lot of people want to be close to you CIA agents, FSB agents, people that were- I'm friends with a former CIA agent, Mike Baker, who's been on my podcast a bunch of times. Allegedly former. Former. Think about that. He's air quotes former. Yeah. I don't believe he's former. I'm sure he has some connection to him. I also believe he's a good guy. But I gain a lot of very intelligent and well-informed insights from him as to how things work. And I think, I'm sure he doesn't tell me everything about everything, but he's told me enough where I think I can understand things better from talking to him about the way the elves work under the machine. What about friends? How do you know if you can trust? Well, most of my friends are old friends. Time. So time is the thing. Like just going through shit together. Yeah. And also people that, first of all, comics. You can trust comics? Yeah. Comics are pretty trustworthy. They're good ones. They're really good ones. There's not that many of us. If there's a thousand professional comics on earth, I'd be stunned. I'd be stunned. I don't even think there's a thousand. Real professionals who you get booked all the time, headline weekends at clubs and theaters and arenas. And then there's levels to that. There's the guys who are middle acts who barely scrape by. And then how many headliners are there? How many really funny headliners? I would say, if you Lex, you tell me you're going to be in Cincinnati, hey, this person's playing at this club. Should I go see them? I'd be like, eh. How many people would I give the recommendation to? And then how many people sell out theaters? How many people sell out arenas? There's not that fucking many. So those people, like at the levels of comedy where you've been doing standup for 20 years, there's a certain amount of honesty and a certain amount of understanding of each other that we all have. Oh, so that process of becoming a great comic is humbling in the way Jiu Jitsu is humbling. Very similar. Like you've eaten so much shit that somehow, even if you're insane, even if you're chaotic, even in the way, even if you're full of shit, you lie a lot, all those kinds of things, underneath it, there's a good human. You could be surface bullshitter, but on important things, you're trustworthy. Hopefully. I mean, if you're not, then people shy away from you. And there are people like that too, that are really successful, but that are what I call islands. I've talked to other comics about that. You don't want to be an island because there's these people that aren't attached to the rest of the community and they're doing well on their own. And usually they have like one opening act they bring with them on the road. They've worked with forever and they don't have comedy friends. And those people are miserable because they can't relate. Sometimes fame in itself is isolating. So you have to actually do a lot of work and make sure you don't, it doesn't isolate you. Because if you become successful, people start wanting stuff from you. And then sometimes you want to push them away because of that, as opposed to connect with them. I kind of enjoy it when people want things from me. It's not fun. You just ignore it. Yeah, it's fucking too heavy. They want too much. It's too much of a disproportionate relationship. It's too unbalanced. Because there are people where you could tell that they're working towards something. They're working towards an angle and they want to be close to you because you will benefit them. And then there's other people that are just, there's not that many of us. And so we all want to hang out together. One of the podcasts I love the most is this podcast I do called Protect Our Parks. It's a thing I do with Ari Shafir, Shane Gillis, and Mark Nalep. It's so fun because we just get obliterated and we talk so much shit. There's conversations after that podcast where I go, hey man, we got to cut that part out. Because Shane will go too far, go too crazy, but we're just making each other laugh and it's just fun. And it's like that kind of camaraderie between real comics is very precious to me. My favorite part of that is the non sequitur stuff from Mark Norman. And you guys get so trashed that you don't even understand what the hell he's talking about. But it's funny to the listener because he's still on point. That guy's as sharp. He's got that Mitch Hedberg quality wit. Well he's such a dedicated comic. He loves comedy so much. That's one of the things I love about him. He's like, comedy! He gets excited. He loves it. It's as does Shane and as does Ari. They really love it. So there's that. I have friends in that way and I have martial arts friends who are some of the also the thing about being humbled, how things like Jiu Jitsu will humble you. Martial arts friends are, they're also, they know who's been through it. They know who really has gone through the gauntlet and emerged on the other end a better person. Yeah. You said there's very few of us. Let's have the goat discussion. You're not going to pick anybody, but who are the greats of comedy? Who's the greatest comic of all time? I don't think there is a greatest comic of all time. Is it Norm MacDonald? Norm MacDonald was one of the greats for sure. Well by the way, actually on that topic, what do you think about his? I think as a person who was fascinated by the fear of death and death, I think it was a truly genius thing to release a special after you're dead. I don't know how that worked. I haven't seen the special of you. It's not. Yeah. It's, it's, um, it's called, I think nothing special. It sounds like something Norm would say. And it's basically him in front of, I mean, I imagine he wouldn't have wanted it edited that way because it's made to look nicer than I think he probably would have preferred it. Uh, but it's him in front of the screen, like on a zoom call doing jokes without lap cold. Really? Yeah. And somehow given his like dry dark humor, it works because it's almost making fun of itself. Almost making fun of that whole that we were stuck, stuck alone inside. And because he's still acting as if he's in front of the audience and is almost making fun of the fact that this is what we're forced to do. I mean, it's quite genius. It's really well, and the jokes are really good, but it also makes you realize how important laughter is from the audience, the energy from the audience because, uh, but there's this also an intimacy because it's just you and him because you're listening into it. You know, there's no audience. Yeah. I don't know. It's, I think it's quite genius. And he is, of course there's, there's certain comics that are like, not only are they funny, but they're truly unique in like they're, they're, they're not in terms of, um, friendship and all that kind of stuff, but in terms of comedy, they're an island. Yeah. It's like they, you know, Mitch Hedberg probably is that, of course a lot of people then start to imitate them and so on. But Steven Wright, Steven Wright. I mean, there's like people who are like, you know, Dave Chappelle, who's like probably one of the greats, but he's just like raw funny. Yeah. I don't know if he's an island. He's just raw. Oh yeah. I know what you're saying. An outlier, unique individual. Yeah. He's just great. Um, Norm was definitely unique in his greatness. Like like there's only one norm, you know, who's got a very specific style. Is there a reason you guys weren't, it doesn't seem like he was, you guys were close. I mean, I loved him. He was great. I always enjoyed talking to him. Um, we just didn't work together that often. We weren't around each other that often. That's all it was. But it wasn't like, uh, it was, I loved him though. He was a great guy. I had a funny story about it, Norm. Uh, twice just randomly, I was on airplanes next to him seated right next to him, just totally random. Yeah. And, uh, one time we're on this, uh, airplane and we're having this talk and I was like, yeah, quit smoking. Uh, it was a smoking a lot and I just had terrible, terrible smoke. It's terrible for you. And we have this great conversation. We get off the plane and he sprints towards a store and buy cigarettes like in the airport and is lighting it on the way out the door. And I go, I thought you quit smoking. It was, yeah, I did. But all that talking about smoking made me want to smoke again. So before he's getting through the door of the airport, he's lighting it up. I can't wait. Oh, he can't wait to get that cigarette in him. It was, he was just so crazy and impulsive and loved to gamble. Love gambling. And in that way he embodied the joke. Like you can't even tell the certain people just like live in a non sequitur ridiculous, absurd, funny way. Yeah, that was him. I mean, nonstop. There was nothing artificial about Norm. That was who he was. His brilliance was his essence. That was who he was. But it's in terms of like the greats, the Godfather of it all is Lenny Bruce. I mean, I have a bunch of Lenny Bruce concert posters at my house and photos that I have framed and Whitney Cummings actually gave me this brilliant photo of him when he got arrested for one of the times when he got arrested for saying obscene jokes. He was the most important figure in the early days of comedy because he essentially gave birth to the modern art form of standup comedy. Before that it was a bunch of guys that were like hosting shows and they would tell jokes. They were just like, you know, two guys walking to a bar, that kind of stuff. And he would talk about social issues. He would talk about life. He would talk about language. He would talk about laws. And it was just he was the very first guy who did modern standup. And what's fascinating is if you go and you try to watch it, if you try to watch Lenny Bruce today, it doesn't work because society has evolved. In many ways, art is a window, especially pop culture art or modern, at the time, culture art, art that discusses culture is a window into that time period. It's a little bit of a time machine. So you get to like, you have to pull yourself, what was it like to be in 1963? Like, what was he saying in 1963? What was this like to hear him say this? And the civilization that existed in 1963, although it looked pretty similar, they're all driving cars and they're all wearing suits and they're all, it seems normal. It's a different world. And the things that he was saying that are so taboo are so normal today that they're not shocking. And it's not that good. It's not that funny. Yeah, you have to do the same kind of stuff for like, there's a DH Lawrence is a book called Lady Shadow's Lover. And I know it sounds ridiculous, but it was one of the early books, I believe at the over a century ago, that was very controversial for its sexual content. It's sort of one of the great books because it dared to actually talk about a woman cheating on her husband and like, and do so in the highest form. And the same thing with Gulag Archipelago talking about some of the darkest aspects of human history, right when all of that stuff is forbidden, when it's banned. Because now it's like, yes, we all know this history, but when in the middle of it, when you're risking your own life, when you're risking your book being banned or burned or you being in prison, that's when it matters, like taking that risk. Yeah. And no one took that risk more than Lenny Bruce. Lenny Bruce was arrested many, many times and ultimately it wound up costing him his life. I mean, he died on the bathroom floor shooting heroin and trying to cope with all the lawsuits that he was going through. I mean, this guy was constantly being arrested and constantly going through lawsuits. And then his comedy deteriorated horribly. There's some footage of him towards the end of his career where he's essentially would go on stage with legal papers and read from the legal papers about his case. From then it's Richard Pryor. From him then the next great is Richard Pryor. And he had the most profound impact on me when I was a kid. When I was 15 years old, my parents took me to see Live at the Sunset Strip, which is a Richard Pryor's concert film. And I remember very distinctly being in that audience and laughing and looking around at all the people in the audience who were like falling out of their chairs, just dying laughing, just swaying back and forth. And I was laughing hard too. And I was like, my God, this guy's doing this just by talking. I thought of all the great movies that I'd seen that I loved that were hilarious comedy movies. And I was like, nothing that I've ever seen is as funny as this. And all he's doing is talking. And that planted a seed in my head for my love of standup comedy and my curiosity about the art form. And that's what got me interested in watching it on television and then ultimately going to open mic nights and then eventually doing it. I've actually been going to open mics a lot recently, just listening. For psychological examinations of people. No, it's actually really inspiring to me to see people that some are funny, some are not so funny, unapologetically trying, putting it all out there night after night, like eating shit. Yeah. My favorite is when you're talking about like five people in the audience and the jokes are just not landing. And they still, I don't know, it feels like even just empathetically, there's few things as difficult as that. It's hard. I still remember those days. Many comics will say this, and I think Dane Cook was the first person I heard say it publicly, that if he ever had to go back and do it again, like from scratch, doesn't think he could do it. Doesn't think he could endure the struggle of open mic to, you know, ultimately to success. And the numbers of people that try it and fail versus try and succeed are off the charts. I don't know if there's any other art form that has such a low rate of success. Because it's psychological, it's torture. It is torture and it's also not something you can learn. Like here's the thing, like if you play guitar, you can learn to play guitar. Somebody can teach you the chords. And if you do it, you could do all along the watchtower, you could play it. You can't teach someone how to do comedy. You think it's you're funny or not? Or can you still figure it out? Like can you still learn? You can figure it out. Yeah. Can you start being unfunny and become funny? Yes, it's possible. It's not easy though. You're going to have to eat a lot of shit. You're going to have to eat a lot of shit and you're going to have to examine why you're not funny. And you're going to have to spend a lot of time with uncomfortable thoughts and try to figure out what it is. Like what's missing? Like, you know, could you edit your stuff and make it better? Maybe you need to do drugs. Maybe you need to get involved in psychedelic drugs and rethink the way you interface with reality itself. Maybe you need your heart broken. Maybe you need to be in love. Maybe there's a lot of maybes there. Like maybe you just need more life experience. But you know, when I started comedy, I was 21 and I was a moron. I had no information. You know, I could do impressions of people and I could talk about sex. Those are the things that I was interested in back then. I mean, if I was talking philosophically, I didn't have a philosophy. I didn't have a unique perspective on life. I hadn't experienced much. So every time you bomb, it forces you to introspect, to ask questions of yourself. And then that's how you actually develop a philosophy. Yeah. Or what you actually believe. You learn through doing. And I think you could say that about podcasting too. You know, I'm certainly way better at having conversations than I ever was when I first started doing comedy or when I first started doing podcasts. You learn to stick with a kid because one day you'll be able to interview Donald Trump. You'd be mad enough to handle that conversation. How hard is it to do? Because I've been really curious. It's been on my bucket list because I'm terrified. I want to do everything I'm terrified of. You got to do stand up? No. But I do want to do like one five minute, like open mic. Why don't you do Kill Tony? How hard is it to do five minutes, would you say? It's hard. Well, it depends on how long you've been thinking about doing comedy. It depends on how you look at things. And also depends on your style of comedy. Like the most difficult style of comedy is like, I think like Steven Wright style is probably the most difficult style of comedy, complete non sequiturs. One subject doesn't lead into the next. There's no flow to it. It's just, I noticed this, I noticed that. And then there's this and then there's that. And that's hard to memorize. And it's really hard to piece together an hour of non sequiturs. But it's easier because you can rely on the joke. It sits more with the joke. Like whether you're funny or not is on the actual material versus like the timing and the energy, the dance with the audience, right? Because like if you don't have the raw jokes like Steven Wright does or Mitch Hedberg, then you have to, it's all about the delivery. Yeah. And yeah, they either kill or they bomb. Is it random? Like whether they kill or bomb? Yeah. Well, I mean, you're essentially a different person every day of your life. You know, you're similar, but you're more tired. You're more rested. You're exhausted. You're refreshed. You have vitamins and food nourishment in your system. You just get your heart broken. You haven't slept in days. You're a different person all the time. And you go onto that stage. You're in the neighborhood of who Lex Friedman is. You're in the Lex Friedman neighborhood. Which Lex Friedman am I going to get? Yeah. You know, energy levels. Yeah. It depends. It all depends. But oh, the other thing with Kill Tony is it's videotaped. So you eating shit is on there forever. Forever. The world can see it. But it's one of the most important shows in comedy. It's the most important show in comedy because first of all, it establishes stand up in a sense that like for the open micers, for the people that are starting it out, it establishes that the most important thing is to be funny. Like this is what the art form is all about. And there's a lot of insecurity attached to that and a lot of fears. And so to alleviate some of those insecurities and fears, people will decide that the message is more important and they'll pretend that you have to have... You have to be socially aware that you have to promote things that are positive in your comedy, which is bullshit. The people that say that, they're all bad. They're all bad at comedy. And that's where the insecurity is. It's like they can't just kill. So they have to pretend that they're supposed to be socially aware and that being socially aware is an important part in society. Let me explain something really clearly. There's not a fucking person on earth who's ever changed their life because of a joke. That's not what they're there for. They're there for jokes. The people that say that, they say that socially important comedy is the only comedy that's necessary, the only comedy that you have to do. That is just because they suck. That is it. It's like the cop out is that they can't do the real comedy. They can't crush. It's not like someone goes from being like Shane Gillis, one of the best comics up and coming right now. He's fucking fantastic. I can't recommend enough seeing that guy live. I work with him in Irvine and I hadn't seen his whole set. I was crying. I mean, he's so good. I heard he's a racist. I haven't listened to any of his material. He's so good. And his comedy is just all just trying to be as funny as possible. There's not a chance in hell that guy's just going to go woke and he's just going to start promoting some sort of socially conscious agenda that's facetious and just a bunch of nonsense that he's trying to elevate his own personal brand and virtue signal. That's not going to happen. The thing about Kill Tony is in that because you only have one minute and because it's live and because you don't want Tony shitting on you or everybody else shitting on you, everybody's just gearing up to try to be as funny as possible. And no one cares if you are gay or straight or Asian or black or trans or non-binary. Nobody gives a fuck. Are you funny? If you're funny, you're in and everybody loves you. You could be 80. You could be 20. Nobody gives a shit. You could be a woman or a man or ambiguous. Nobody fucking cares. Are you funny? That's the most important thing for a community of comedy to really promote comedy. Just funny. Just be funny. And so in that sense, Kill Tony is a real cornerstone of comedy. It's a reminder of what comedy is supposed to be. That said, even the funniest stuff has underneath it some wisdom that comes out of it, but that's not the primary goal of it. Yeah. I mean, it might be inspiring and fun. Oh, Tim Dillon's a great example of that. Yeah. He's got some amazing insights in his comedy, but it's still... It's all about... It's fucking comedy. It's all about the funny. Yeah. It's all about the funny. He's the best at doing that, especially in a podcast form, about weaving really important points in with hilarious, obviously just jokes. Let me ask you, speaking of Tim Dillon, a chaotic, fucked up individual, can we go to your childhood real quick? A brief stroll. So your mom and dad split up when you were five. From a younging perspective, if you look at your subconscious, what impact do you think that had on you, informing who you are as a man, as a human being? Well, at the time, I thought that my father was like a hero. He was my dad. I think every kid thinks like that about his dad. His dad is like, your dad's your protector. Your dad is like the coolest guy in the world. That's what you like. You want to be like him. Yeah. Everybody wants to be like their dad, especially if your dad is like an imposing figure. I remember one time me and my cousin got in a fight over nothing. It was like over who's tougher, King Kong or Godzilla. Yeah. Over nothing. That's an important... But yeah. He said Godzilla. Actual fight? Actual physical fight. Oh, I punched him in the face. This is when you were like five? Yeah. Yeah. Which side were you on? King Kong. Okay. I was wrong. Godzilla's like way bigger. Yeah. Godzilla's 500 feet tall and he shoots fire out of his mouth. Yeah. Are you sure? I mean, there's an argument to be made. It's not all about size, right? No, there's no argument to be made. 500 feet tall versus 50 feet tall. One's a gigantic dinosaur. One is a stupid monkey who gets shot down by a plane. You can't kill Godzilla. Godzilla? No. No. You can't kill Godzilla with a plane. That shit wouldn't work in Godzilla. Killed King Kong. King Kong in the new movies kept growing. He's getting bigger and bigger. Yeah. It got to the point where he's as big as Godzilla. It just feels like King Kong is stronger. Stop. Backtake. Backtake. Immediate backtake. You don't think there's a backtake? There's a difference between... If he's the same size.... human weapons and two animals going at it of a different size. You don't think there's, in the jungle, a smaller animal can take on a bigger animal. You got monkey versus, let's see, a lion. Monkey versus a bear. What? Who wins? A monkey versus a bear? Not a monkey. What's the strongest ape? A gorilla? No, but gorilla, okay. Gorilla can't do backtakes. I'm thinking of a smaller... You know what I'm saying? Because in Jiu-Jitsu, you see this all the time. Do you remember that scene in Talladega Nights? Do you know Talladega Nights? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Where the little boy's talking to his grandpa, I'll be all over you like a spider monkey. Exactly. Spider monkey. I was thinking... All right. There's some animals. Here's a better example. A wolverine. Wolverines chase wolves and bears off of their kills. They're not very big at all. They're just so ferocious. They're so durable. It's very hard to kill a wolverine. Yeah. It's because of cats, not actual cats, domestic cats or domestic dogs starting shit with much larger animals. Yeah. If they're ferocious enough, it works. Pit bulls are a great example of that. Pit bulls are small. Real game bred pit bulls are 35, 45 pounds and they'll kill much larger dogs. Anyway, you were on King Kong's side. Yeah. You eat shit out of your cousin. I remember he said to me... I thought it was in real trouble because I remember my cousin's mom was yelling at me and was like, you monster, all this crazy shit. My dad got me alone and he said, tell me what happened. I told him, we got in a fight. We were arguing. We were King Kong Godzilla and I punched him in the face. He goes, did you cry? I go, no. He goes, good. Don't ever cry. I remember that. Like, whoa. Okay. I remember thinking, all right, I'm just going to start punching people. Because obviously my dad thinks it's a good idea if I go running around punching people as long as I don't cry. I remember certain things about... Also this is again, we're talking about watching Lenny Bruce and getting a timeline of what the world was like back then. This was a different world. This would have been 1972. It's a different world back then, man. Like a really different world. It's some of that. So Carl Jung talked about the shadow. It's the unconscious where you have dark stuff and oftentimes you use it to project. There's stuff that you're very self-critical about yourself, but because it's in your unconscious, you use it to project onto others. You see it as flaws in others. And that's a good way to... Whatever, I think he has a quote, like everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves. So that's a nice way to investigate yourself. Something that pisses you off. You start asking questions of your own mind and that's how you bring it to the surface. But anyway, from that, those are formative years. From that time, is there still stuff in your unconscious you think you haven't examined? Some dark shit. I don't think so. I'm not aware if it is, because I've looked. If someone says, I left something over your house, where'd you leave it? I don't know. I'll go look. I'll get a real thorough look. But I'm pretty sure. Pretty sure it's not there. Yeah. I don't know. I think I've looked. It certainly had an effect. I think the positive effect also was compounded by the fact that when my mother married my stepdad, who's a great guy, who was a hippie, very different, we moved around a lot. The bad thing about that was I didn't really develop long-term friends. The good thing about that was that I was forced to develop my own opinions about things. Instead of adopting an opinion of the neighborhood and the group about anything, I was forced to form my own thoughts and opinions about almost everything. It made me much more of an independent thinker. That on top of the fact that losing my quote unquote hero very early on and then having to form my own opinions about things, it left me with a very independent streak. If I hadn't done the things that I got interested in, martial arts and then comedy, if I hadn't gotten interested in those things, I would have been fucked because I was just too independent for normal jobs. I was too independent for school. I just didn't want to listen to people. I was too feral. I just didn't want to sit still. If I was with the wrong parents, especially today, I most certainly would have been medicated. Yeah, there's so many possible trajectories you can imagine where you would have not been the person you are today. Oh yeah. This is probably one of the best possible trajectories. This particular storyline you're living through was one of the better ones. This timeline is as good as it gets for someone like me. Is there advice you can give to young kids that are living through a shitty situation of any sort, a tough life? Find a thing you like. Try to find a thing that you really enjoy. Try to find a thing that you're passionate about. Like an activity. Yes. For me, early on, it was drawing. It was illustrations. It was comic books. I wanted to be a comic book illustrator. And then it went from comic book drawing and illustrations to martial arts. But it was just another thing that I was very, very passionate about. And that was my vehicle out of my dilemma. That was my vehicle out of my own anxiety and trauma and my own issues and insecurities. Find something. Find a thing that you genuinely enjoy because getting good at things you genuinely enjoy is extremely beneficial for young people because it lets you know that everybody thinks they're a loser. Every young person thinks they're a loser. At least a young person in the situation I was at. I didn't know I wasn't a loser until I started winning, until I started doing martial arts. Martial arts taught me that I could get better at stuff, that I wasn't really a loser. I just was someone who was in a fucked up situation. But you could channel all that energy that you have as a young person into something and get better at it. And then all of a sudden people admired me. I was like, this is crazy. So I went from being someone who was incredibly insecure and basically a failure to someone who was really successful at this one thing that was very dangerous that other people were scared of. And that gave me immense confidence and also a real understanding of the direct correlation between hard work and success. And the kind of understanding that you're not a loser. Right. That there is some diamond in the rough. Yeah. And also an understanding that you can't listen to people because even my parents didn't want me to do martial arts. They didn't want me to fight. They didn't want me to do stand up. You have to understand who you are and then in the face of other people's either criticism or lack of faith in your ability to succeed, you push through and there's great benefit in that. And you realize that you can kind of apply that to other things in life. You can apply that to critics. You can apply that to social media commentators. You can apply that to a lot of things. Okay. What about young people in their fifties? Can you give advice to like, imagine you're sitting back probably still here in Texas in your nineties, looking back, what advice would that guy give to you today? Or like people that have done some shit in their fifties, you've gone through a hell of a life. There's potentially some incentive to settle down. You got a great family to relax, but maybe there's some incentive to still do epic shit, still be David Goggins running in the middle of the desert, screaming shit into a camera. If you're David Goggins, you have to be David Goggins. I don't think there's a path for that guy that exists at this stage of his life other than that. Do you think he'll be 70 and still screaming? Yes. Okay. A hundred percent. A hundred percent. If David and I are alive, we're both 70, he's going to call me up and say, stay hard motherfucker. Guaranteed. Guaranteed. So lean into whatever the fuck you are at this point. Well, if you're enjoying it, but if you're not enjoying it, rethink your life. Try to figure out why you're not enjoying it. You still think it's possible to shift things in your fifties? Yeah. If you're alive, you can get better. No matter what. Yeah, no matter what. If you're alive, you can shift things. If you're 90 years old and you have a month to live, you can apologize for the things you think you did wrong and maybe reconcile and shape relationships that you have with the people that are around you better so that they feel differently about you after you're gone. Yeah. I always love people in their seventies who are getting back into dating or something like that. Yeah. I was watching a video about a woman who's in her sixties who just started powerlifting. Nice. Yeah. And same with jujitsu. You see people get into jujitsu. Mm-hmm. Yeah. A white belt that's like 70. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If you're alive, you can get better at stuff. I don't think people are happy if they don't have puzzles and complex tasks and things that are interesting to them, whether it's an art project or whether it's learning something completely new like stand-up comedy. Doing things that are difficult is as much of a nourishment of the mind as food is a nourishment of the body. I think you need things that are puzzling to you where you have to find your own human potential in the difficulty of the task and work your way through things, at least for me. For me, I can only speak for me because I'm the only life that I've ever lived that I'm aware of. In my life, that has been 100% constant. I am a very happy person and I have never had a moment where I'm not doing difficult shit ever. What matters most is how well you walk through the fires. You just keep starting fires for yourself to walk through. Well, they don't necessarily have to be fires because fires are out of control. Lukewarm- Tasks.... the surfaces. Tasks. Give yourself something, an arduous, difficult task where you're challenged, challenged mentally and challenged physically. One of the great things about being challenged physically is it's also mental. The people that don't understand that have never really been challenged physically. People that think that physical challenges are just physical, it's just brute grunt work, it's not. It's emotional intelligence. It's understanding your desire to quit and conquering your inner bitch. All that stuff is mental. It's playing out inside your head. There's a mental strength that you acquire from that that you can apply to intellectual pursuits. The people that don't think that are the people that haven't attempted them. There's an arrogance to people that only pursue intellectual exercises, only pursue intellectual things, and don't pursue anything physical. The physical stuff is base, it's grunt work, it's primal, it's not necessary. I don't think that's accurate. Obviously there's people like Stephen Hawking who have no opportunity to do anything physical. His physical dilemma is keeping us, or was, keeping us heart beating. For most people, I think you can really benefit from physical struggle. You benefit from it in a mental way. I think that is overlooked. It's unfortunately overlooked by academics and intellectuals who make excuses for why they're fat and lazy or scrawny. They don't need to be. It's not even about the fat or all of that. It's like literally there's something about the physical challenge that's really good for you, especially if you're academic, especially if you do intellectual types though. There's this great roboticist at MIT, Russ Tedrick. He runs barefoot to and from MIT every day. I love it. Like seven to 10 miles each way. Barefoot. Barefoot. He studies legged locomotion, legged robots. For him it's also interesting how the human body moves. He sees the beauty in all movement. What do his feet look like? You know, calloused. Destroyed, right? No, just calloused. They're nice. They form a nice... It's not like I gave him a foot massage. I mean they look... And I don't have a foot fetish so I'm not able to correctly evaluate another man's feet. I apologize for this. But they don't look fucked up. Does he run on concrete? Yeah. He runs all surfaces. And he does everything completely barefoot? The running part at work. So one of the things he has to do is fit into society, which means he has to change clothes and appear normal. Right. Does he wear like zero shoes? You know those barefoot type shoes? No, because that's like very hippie, wokey type of thing. No, like he doesn't... He's barefoot when he's running and then he wears like normal looking stuff. Like dress shoes. How did he work his way up to running barefoot? So he was significantly overweight. And his advisor, this other famous person at MIT who was a roboticist, took his own life and that made him... That made Russ face his own mortality, I think. You start to ask big questions about your wellbeing, like, holy shit, this wreck can end at any moment. And so he started taking his sort of physical wellbeing seriously. But as a result of that, not that he become like shredded, but he's also discovered the intellectual value, the humbling value of physical exercise. He's not preachy about it all. I actually rarely hear him advise it to anyone. He just does it as a... Almost like meditation or something like that. It's definitely a form of meditation and you can attest to that, right? You do quite a bit of running. There's a thing about it. You kind of... Almost like a mantra gets formed and you get into it. You know what's great here in the Austin heat? 100 degree weather. That tests you. You know what I love to do outside? Pull sleds. That's my thing. I love to pull sleds outside. In the heat. Yeah, I did it today. Yeah, I love it. So you're also... Your wife is incredible. You're in a relationship. You're married. You have a great family. What advice would you give to me and to others like me who are dumb fucks and have not found a relationship? Well, you're a great guy. This definitely doesn't necessarily apply to you, but be someone who someone would want to be in a relationship with. There's a lot of people out there that want a great partner. They want someone in a relationship, but why would someone want to be in a relationship with you? Maybe you bicker a lot. Maybe you're jealous. Maybe you lie. Maybe you're cruel. Maybe you don't have a sense of humor. Maybe you're not kind. What is it about you that people would not enjoy being around or that people avoid? Fix that. Fix that. Well, this applies to me as well. You said something with Cam Haines. One of the things you admire is the discipline it takes to juggle so many things and do it successfully. I'm not sure I'm very good at that. So juggling all this hard work and then also a relationship. Also relationship, also family, all these kinds of priorities. I mean, that requires having your shit together. It does. It's a different thing, but it's also you got to find the right person. There's a lot of people who settle for sexy. They settle for hot. They settle for the wrong person. You can get hot and nice. They're out there, but don't get hot and mean. Hot and mean is not fun. Then you get Amber Heard. And then you end up getting dry. You can be deceived by perfect symmetry. You don't think it's a good idea to record your partner? I think you should record all conversations. The CIA is doing it no matter what. I assume that every conversation I have is recorded because I'm pretty sure it is. Even when we had dinner with Alex Jones, he was recording. I still remember that. I didn't know that was recording. You know what would be funny if he is the CIA player? He could be. He could be. But that's my advice about relationships is be somebody and then also find someone who you can grow with. You don't want to be with someone who doesn't share your value. You don't want to be with someone who makes excuses. You don't want to be with someone who's lazy or who's spiteful. You want to be with someone who's genuinely kind. That's one of the things that I really love about my wife. She's very smart and she works hard. She's a dedicated, disciplined person, but she's also really nice. That's one of the things I like the most about her. She's so nice. She's always smiling. And that energy is great. Yeah. You've seen us together. You've hung around with us. She's fun. She's a lot of fun. Yeah. She makes you just feel great to be alive. It's good to have people like that around you. She's happy. She's a happy person. She's happy to be around. That's the kind of people that you could have in your life as friends and as coworkers and as lovers and wives and husbands. You can find those people. They're real. And when you find those people, your life is better. To have a good tribe is very important. To have a good tribe of people. And I think if there's anything that I'm very, very fortunate about, it's the people that I'm around. I have very good friends, and one of which is you. It's so valuable to have quality people around you because it makes you want to do better because you admire the hard work that these people put in, like Mike Kam Haines or Goggins or many of my friends, and people that are generous and people that are curious and people that are honest. They inspire you to do the same, and it's extremely valuable. It's one of the most valuable things is to surround yourself with positive, healthy, friendly, generous people. That's why I cut out Tim Dillon for my life. I broke up with him. I thought you guys were getting married. No, it's over. It's none of those things. The Texas nonstop, the nonstop conspiracy theories, the nonstop mocking of my Eastern European origins, it's just not healthy for me. Plus he's physically abusive and a towering figure, both emotionally and physically. No, no, I love him. If he worked out, he would be a house. He's got a large frame. If I interview Putin, what should I ask him? How's the cancer? How's it doing, buddy? That's question number one in Russian. Do you think he has cancer? I don't think so. The narrative is terrifying, right? Dictator of the largest nuclear arsenal in the world who also has cancer and he just invaded a sovereign country. That's a terrifying narrative because that's what we're all afraid of. Someone who has nothing to lose who just decides to let loose the nuke. Well, I do think maybe it's projecting, but if I had cancer or if you think about leaders that have cancer, you're facing your own mortality, I would think he'll be more focused on his legacy and dropping nuclear bomb is not good for legacy. I do believe he wants to be remembered as a great leader, as a lot of leaders do, as a lot of even dictators do. I think he wants to figure out a way to pull out a win so he can say that whatever this invasion was, was good for Russia, was good for the nation. He ultimately made it a greater nation than it was before. Perhaps he could justify an escalation of war to be that. It's just the cancer thing concerns me so much because it's been so often part of this propaganda that's been told about Putin, he's sick. I don't know why. People wonder that a lot about, especially dictators, but you had that even with Hillary Clinton and obviously with Biden, that narrative is stickier. For some people, it's stickier. Well, that narrative is transparent and obvious. The degree of it is a question with Biden as it is with everyone. How healthy is this leader? That's a question people often ask. Sure, always. They were doing that about Trump too. The thing about Putin though is his appearance is altered where he looks very bloated. His body doesn't look much bigger, but his face looks puffy and swollen. I had a friend who had sarcoidosis and they prescribed prednisone, which is a type of a steroid. One of the things that would happen when he was on it is his face would get really big. It was like he would blow up, swell up, maintain a lot of water and inflammation. That's what it looks like when I'm looking at Putin. Actually, if you're sitting with him, one question is about health. Has Biden been asked that kind of question? Without mockery, without any of that- He would have to go on Fox News. The mainstream media treats him with kid gloves in a way that I've never seen. It's so obvious. There's something horribly wrong with his cognitive function. To push back, I don't know if it's horribly wrong. You don't think it's horribly wrong? I think there's uncertainty to which degree it's wrong. I would love there to be a serious conversation with him. In fact, I actually have to now look. Of course, Fox News will mock his declining mental health. I would love an objective discussion. Are you aware of this? What are you putting in place? Are you yourself? If I was a person with declining mental abilities, you have to start thinking about that kind of stuff. Who is around you? Who are the advisors? What if you start being able to see the world clearly? I would be transparent about that kind of stuff. Well, you would be, but you also would never be a politician because you're too fucking honest. Well, yeah, but actually from a conversation perspective, it would be nice if that kind of discussion was had. It would be. All jokes aside, with Putin, I would ask questions about democracy versus what they have. Without any disparaging descriptions of what is going on over in Russia, it's clearly not a democracy. It's the way he has it set up. The elections are a joke. He would push back that it's not clearly not a democracy. He is still very popular. Majority of people are huge supporters of Putin inside Russia. The people that push back against that would say that that's because any serious opposition is pushed out of the country. Yeah, and arrested and murdered. Yeah, but yes, that's a really, really good question. The value of dictatorships. One of the things about the United States that's fascinating to me is that every four years, unless it's four to eight years, right? Someone does two terms, but every four years there's an opportunity for someone to be new and completely inexperienced at the most difficult job in the world, which is ridiculous. The interesting thing is it actually makes sense after eight years, you've gained the wisdom. You would actually be a pretty good leader to keep going. But there is some problem where the power gets started getting to your head. From Putin's perspective, I think he genuinely wants the best for Russia. I don't think he's lost his mind in terms of it's all about greed and so on. Same as Stalin. I think Stalin, until the end of his days, wanted the best for the Soviet Union. It's not like you become... Hitler, I think, lost his mind during the war, where it was like he wasn't seen clearly at all. What Putin believes is that he is actually the best person to bring out the best for his country. Now, the problem is maybe refreshing the leader is in fact, in the long term, the best thing, versus every leader believes they know what's best for the country. The whole point is to keep refreshing it. That's the case for democracy. That's the case for the system we have that creates natural, maybe emergent balance of power. I think it makes it evident that there is no clear cut, real right way to do it. If you had the perfect person in, having them for 12, 20 years would be amazing. If you had a perfect, benevolent leader who clearly only cared about the people, was doing their best and striving hard and got great satisfaction knowing that he is a dedicated civil servant that only wants to lead the country in a way that's going to benefit the most people in the most profound way. But we have a dirty political system. It's completely corrupted by money, completely corrupted by influence. The fact that the lobbyists, there's an area outside of Washington, DC. It's one of the richest areas in the country and it's where the lobbyists live. There's so much money involved in being a lobbyist. There's so much money involved in special interest groups and how much of an impact they have on who gets elected and what decisions get made once that person gets elected. We know this. We know it's not for the people, by the people. It's just not what it is. I mean, this country is an experiment in self-government and if we could do it all over again, I would say the most important thing is to have laws in place to keep money out of politics and to make it a heinous crime for someone to influence laws and policy based entirely on the amount of profit it could generate for a party or for a company that is investing in a candidate. That's fucking incredibly dangerous and it's corrupt and that corruption has been accepted. We've just accepted that this corruption exists. Last question. If Putin asks to see this watch, what do I tell him? Would you give it, should I let him see it? Because we know what happens with the Super Bowl ring. I think a Super Bowl ring is unique. He could buy a watch like that pretty easy. But this particular isn't that a power move? Yeah. This is the watch you gave me. There's a story. I would probably share it with him. The story. And then maybe you go, look, can I see this watch? And then he puts it on and says, thank you. Do you say no? You go like this. Yeah, there it is, bro. You don't take it off? There's so many words I'm going to have to find translations, buddy, bro. I guess bro is brother. I mean, if he takes your watch, I'll buy you another one. If Putin steals it. Keep him going. I'll just give you the same exact watch. Well, first of all, thank you for this. My pleasure, bro. I really wanted to talk to you because in a couple of days, I'm leaving to Ukraine and Russia and I hope I'll be back in one piece and drink whiskey with you once again. Yeah, I hope so too. I'm nervous about you going over there. I know journalists have been killed now. But they don't know Jiu Jitsu. No, I think you'll be okay. And I think there's certain things you do in life that just kind of your heart pulls towards that so much. What's your objective over there? I'm not somebody who thinks about objectives clearly. It's just something about me says I need to go there. But to put in loose words is to try to understand what that world is now. So I remember what it was years ago when I was there. I know my family. I know the generations of family that was there on that land in Ukraine and in Russia. And the soul of the people, the love that's there, the beauty of the culture. And I want to see what it is today and what this war has created, both the anger and the love and the people and just hear them out and just talk to them. No recordings, none of that. Maybe a little here and there, but mostly just for me and to see. I don't know. Sometimes it's just something pulls you to a place. And I also, because I'm able to speak Russian and some Ukrainian, I do want to try to have these, a couple of the political leaders involved, talk to them. And I have all the right connections. Everybody has said yes. Of course, you don't know the likelihood it finally happens, but I want to at least have that possibility there. Sometimes you have to go to a place to really understand it. You can't just read about it. You can't just talk to the people that are living there. You have to be there. And I've never been in a war zone. I've never been in a land that's been damaged and wiped by the weapons of war. And I just want to feel that because so much of that land is, I remember when everything was flourishing. Yes, corruption, all those kinds of things, but people were there and the culture was flourishing and people were happy. There was lots of struggle, but they were happy. And now people are extremely angry. There's hate in the air on all sides. I want to see that. I want to understand. Sometimes it just pulls you and you have to go. So it doesn't make any sense perhaps, but you just got to do it. What's the timeline of when I'm going? How long? No, one way. I don't have a plan. Wow. Yeah. So I'm hoping back in a month. But also not just to clarify, I'm not somebody who seeks risk. And like you're somebody who seems to be terrified of bears and sharks. So you don't like, so why go swim out? Why go surfing? Why go swim out in the ocean? So I'm somebody that's the same probably with sharks too. I'm not taking unnecessary risk, but certain things that just mean a lot to you, you take the risk. So a little bit of risk willing to take to discover something about myself, honestly, it's probably what it all boils down to, try to understand myself. Because so much of me is from that place. This is the beautiful thing about America is it's like stitches together all these different cultures. Everybody came from somewhere else. Yeah. And you try to understand in order for me to be a good American, I need to understand who I was, where I came from. And that's nothing reveals the spirit of a people better than war. It's like, there's something about this conflict that's really cuts all the bullshit. This is who we are. This is who we are as a people. So I want to see it. I want to understand. And like I said, when I come back, drink some whiskey with you. All right. I hope that happens. I really do. And I hope you're safe over there and I hope you come back with whatever insight you're trying to achieve. Thank you for doing this conversation. My pleasure, brother. Thank you for everything you've done for me, for the support, for the love and everybody around you. Thank you for everything you're doing for everybody around you for giving back, but for just giving and being kind to everybody. I love you, brother. I love you too. Thank you. Thanks for listening to this conversation with Joe Rogan. To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now let me leave you with one of Joe's and one of my favorite quotes from Miyamoto Musashi. Once you know the way broadly, you'll see it in everything. Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.
 The following is a conversation with Joe Rogan, his second time on this podcast.
 He has inspired me for many years with his conversations to be a better and kinder person
 and has now been doing so as a friend.
 There's no one I would rather talk to on this 300th episode of this podcast on the 4th of
 July, both the anniversary of this country's declaration of independence and the anniversary
 of my immigrating here to the United States.
 A silly kid who couldn't speak English and could never imagine that he would be so damn
 lucky as to live the life I've lived and to feel the love I've felt from the amazing
 people along the way.
 From the bottom of my heart, thank you.
 I love you all.
 This is the Lex Friedman Podcast.
 To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description.
 And now, dear friends, here's Joe Rogan.
 Charles Bukowski said something in a poem called Style about art.
 He defined art saying, style is the answer to everything, a fresh way to approach a dull
 or dangerous thing.
 To do a dull thing with style is preferable to doing a dangerous thing without it.
 To do a dangerous thing with style is what I call art.
 What do you think he meant by that?
 Do you agree with this?
 A dangerous thing with style is art.
 He said bullfighting can be art, boxing can be art, loving can be art.
 Have you ever made love and it was art?
 No, okay, I'm not asking.
 Every time, bro.
 Opening a can of sardines can be art.
 I think there's something to that.
 Yeah, I think I call the way people live life art.
 I wrote a forward to my friend Cameron Haynes' book, which is right now the number one selling
 audio book in the world.
 One of the things that I said was that he practices an art that very few people appreciate
 and it's the art of the maximized life.
 The discipline that he displays in his life and through his practices and all the things
 that he does, it's so difficult to live the way he lives that for someone like me who
 understands it and knows what he's doing and appreciates it and appreciates how insanely
 difficult it is to have a full-time job and run ultra marathons, get up at four o'clock
 in the morning, run a full marathon before work.
 That's the kind of shit that he does when he's training for these 240 mile runs, at
 the same time being a father, a husband, having this full-time job, also being the best bow
 hunter on earth, lifting weights.
 How does a person do this?
 In a way, discipline is art too.
 Yes, discipline is art.
 I think it is because it's beautiful for me to see.
 When I see someone who's really truly disciplined, like a David Goggins, someone who just truly
 maximizes the grind, I feel like there's an art to that.
 There's an art to kindness.
 There's people that are really kind and really sweet.
 When I'm around them, it's beautiful.
 There's an art to them.
 No matter what.
 The world can throw a bunch of shit at you, but through all that-
 Some people are just great at it.
 It's a thing that you learn how to do.
 It's pleasing for other people to see.
 That I think is where the art is.
 Well, I think Bukowski also said, and I'm just a Bukowski quote generator today.
 I love him.
 I love him very much too.
 He's a dark and troubled and fascinating and a weird person.
 Like Hunter S. Thompson.
 He said, what matters most is how you walk through the fire, I think.
 There's a bit of the Ken Haynes in that too, David Goggins in that too.
 What do you think he meant by that?
 How you walk through the fire.
 You can walk through the fire complaining along the way, or you can walk through the
 fire and create an example for everyone else so that the trials and tribulations of their
 own life seem trivial because they're comparing themselves to the way you handle things.
 Or the way you handle things with grace and dignity and discipline can show other people
 that they can handle their own life this way.
 There's beauty in that.
 There really is.
 There's so much inspiration to be gathered from other people if you're a charitable person.
 If you're charitable and compassionate and you can look at people, even people that I
 don't like.
 I try to look at the best aspects of how they live their life and recognize those aspects,
 admire them, give them credit for it.
 There's something that we can all get out of watching the way other people live their
 lives.
 I got a chance to see you walk through the fire a little bit privately and publicly this
 year in January.
 I got to ask you about that.
 There's generic conversations about cancel culture and all those kinds of things, but
 as a human being, this to me is fascinating.
 There's the N-word highlight video.
 There's the criticism of the different guests, whatever the side is on the COVID pandemic.
 You... There's a mass amount of attack on you.
 Outside of being a public persona, outside of being a comedian, podcast, you're also
 a human being.
 How did you survive that?
 How did you walk through that fire?
 You seem to do it with grace.
 I used mushrooms.
 That was one way I did it.
 Really?
 As Andrew Huberman would say, what was your protocol?
 I took... It was probably less than a gram every day.
 Every day.
 Yeah.
 I did a lot of really hard working out, but also... There's a great benefit to going
 through anything difficult.
 If you're aware, in advance and during, anything that's going to happen that's very difficult
 and troubling, the great benefit is it gives you an opportunity to grow.
 Gives you an opportunity to express yourself under pressure, to show your character, to
 show who you truly are.
 And it gives you an opportunity to see how you handle a very difficult situation.
 It also was fascinating as a person that's involved in media, because what we're doing
 right now is media, even though it seems... Podcasts seem like we're just having a conversation,
 and they are.
 In a sense, it's the purest form of media, because what you're doing is you're doing
 it without any fanfare, you're doing it without any... There's no executives looming over
 your head or network or big meetings about ratings or any of that stuff, but it is media.
 What I got to see is the wiring under the machine of how the rest of media would try
 to take me out.
 When CNN would just be playing things over and over and back and forth, it was wild to
 watch.
 What was also wild to watch was people's responses, because I gained two million subscribers during
 that time.
 The podcast never got bigger.
 It just kept growing.
 It had never been bigger than it had been at the end of all of it.
 It just made it bigger.
 And ultimately, if you've fucked up in the past or made mistakes or done something wrong,
 that gives you an opportunity to discuss those things and to say, to apologize if you feel
 the need to apologize, and also to just address it.
 People under that kind of pressure, it's an opportunity for them to understand how you
 think about things honestly, how you actually honestly think about things.
 There's no more honesty that you get out of a person than when that person is under extreme
 duress.
 I mean, it's horrible to say that it's a benefit, that it's a good thing that it happened,
 but it was a benefit.
 Can you see how it can break a person?
 I've gotten a chance to experience small attacks here and there, ones that get to the core
 of things.
 Even just talking about Russia and Ukraine to Stephen Cotkin or Oliver Stone, looking
 at different perspectives, you gain, for me, feeling like a sizable number of people who
 really don't like you and say things about you that may be cut deep for a reason I don't
 understand why.
 It's just my own psychology.
 It's also because you can't defend yourself because they're saying it and you're not there
 and you don't have any opportunity for a rebuttal.
 If you do have a rebuttal, you're doing it publicly and you're opening it up to the whole
 world to chime in.
 There's a general tendency that people have towards negativity when they're interacting
 with strangers online, especially about controversial subjects.
 Even if it's only 10% of the people, it's one out of 10.
 That's a lot.
 That's a lot of negativity when you're dealing with thousands and thousands of tweets.
 I think, maybe I'm just a very self-critical person, but I hear their words and I probably
 somewhere deep inside see the truth and the criticism in some aspect of the criticism.
 That's why it hurts.
 One aspect of you, but when you're reading it, it's boiled down to this one thing as
 if that one thing defines you totally.
 If you've made a mistake, if you've said something that you shouldn't have said, or if you said
 something and maybe you should have considered it more carefully giving the gravity of the
 situation, that's just a part of being a person.
 It's also part of being a person where you're communicating with things publicly in real
 time thinking out loud, which is what we do.
 It's complex and most people don't do it.
 You're going to have genuine hot takes where people just see what you said and go, why
 did he say that?
 Fuck him.
 He doesn't know anything about it.
 He doesn't live in Ukraine.
 There's people that are going to have takes on that in that way.
 Then there's also going to be these disingenuous people who just use any kind of controversial
 topic or subject as an opportunity for them to get clicks or views.
 The number of those people can be quite large.
 Quite large.
 Going back to, do you think it can destroy a person?
 I worry about this.
 You're in many ways, but in this way, an inspiration that it didn't seem to have destroyed you.
 I kept doing shows.
 I kept doing standup.
 I ignored everything.
 I didn't read any of it.
 It is possible to just ignore it?
 100%.
 Yes.
 Yeah.
 I ignored it all.
 I knew it was there.
 Your family didn't bring it up.
 My family was very aware of it.
 My wife was aware of it.
 What was the conversation like?
 If your wife is aware of it, is there a rule?
 Pretend it's not happening?
 No.
 Just like what?
 I tell her, don't ever read articles.
 Past the green beans.
 I don't ever let her read negative articles to me.
 I don't want them.
 I don't care.
 I go, that's a person's opinion.
 You take a person's opinion, you write it down.
 It doesn't give it any more relevance.
 That person could have had that opinion in silence.
 They could have had it with some friends at dinner.
 They don't like me, whatever.
 I don't want to read it.
 I don't want to absorb it.
 I don't even know them, especially if I'm not there.
 Especially if it's some biased and it's not an objective opinion of me.
 They have a narrative and they want to stick to that narrative and they want to write an
 article and they piece it all together, make you a piece of shit.
 That's their prerogative.
 They're completely allowed to do that.
 I shouldn't absorb that.
 I shouldn't take that in.
 You're not supposed to be taking in the opinion of the world.
 You're supposed to be taking in the opinion of small groups of people that you encounter
 so that you get an understanding of how you make them feel.
 Then maybe you say to yourself, maybe I come across too rude or maybe I come across too
 insensitive or maybe I could do better in this way or that way.
 That's how we shape our personalities and that's how we develop our social skills.
 When the people don't know you and they have this distorted narrative of you and there's
 fucking millions of people, there's so many people, you can't be sane.
 I think there's billions now actually.
 I mean, millions of people that are communicating about something.
 During the height of the attempt to cancel me or whatever that is, I don't know how many
 people were involved in that.
 People take this kind of stuff seriously, but the problem is the false narratives take
 hold and then you have meetings, you have groups, it builds on top of each other and
 there's this outrage and then it reaches you at some point and it can just have these destructive
 effects.
 It can, but it also sometimes doesn't.
 In my case, it didn't.
 It didn't work.
 What lessons did you draw from that?
 Mushrooms, exercise?
 Mushrooms and exercise.
 Exercise is critical.
 I don't think the mushrooms by themselves would have worked, but that's the thing that I use
 for everything is the brutal exercise.
 My exercise routines are horrible and because of that, everything else is easier.
 I create my own bullshit and my own bullshit is so much harder and it's not just that.
 It's also sauna and cold plunge and torture sessions.
 When you endure those, it makes enduring other things much easier and it's also an understanding
 of what's happening.
 You have to know media.
 You have to understand what the hot take, YouTube, social media, podcast, ecosphere is
 doing.
 If they're talking about, Lex Friedman said this and we have to comment on that and Lex
 gets canceled in all capital letters on a YouTube clip.
 You watch that, you're fucking crazy.
 What are you doing?
 Absorbing all this negativity?
 It's not good for you.
 You are you.
 You know you and you know generally if you've made a mistake and generally if people are
 upset with you.
 You posted this awesome video on your Instagram of a woman who was being interviewed in late
 1920s maybe.
 She's close to 100 years old.
 She's lived through the Civil War, through World War I.
 She was at the time living through the early days of the Great Depression.
 I was just looking back, what have we as a human civilization in recent times survived,
 especially in the United States?
 You're talking about the two World Wars in the 20th century, the Great Depression, the
 Spanish Flu, the pandemic at the beginning of the 20th century.
 What do we do in the United States?
 9-11.
 If you think of what are the traumatic events that shook our world, it's 9-11.
 It made us rethink our place in the world.
 The pandemic.
 Pandemic is a huge one.
 One of the bigger ones because it also accelerated and exacerbated our anxiety, which people
 have a certain level of anxiety already, especially sedentary people.
 They have a very high level of anxiety already because I don't think they're giving their
 body what it needs.
 Your body has certain requirements in terms of movement.
 When you deny your body those requirements, I think there's a general level of anxiety
 that exists in almost everyone.
 Then you have people, obviously, that have mental health issues.
 That also exacerbates the anxiety.
 The lockdown exacerbated the anxiety.
 Losing loved ones to the pandemic exacerbated anxiety.
 Then there was the division, the different schools of thought, the people that were never
 going to get vaccinated no matter what.
 I ain't trusting it.
 People that thought there was microchips in there.
 People that thought that Fauci's the demon.
 There was a lot.
 There's also political leanings.
 The right-wing people tended to not want to be vaccinated.
 Whereas the left-wing people, for whatever reason, all of a sudden are trusting pharmaceutical
 companies explicitly.
 It was weird.
 It was a weird time.
 I think over time, as it gets analyzed and we break it down, it's going to be one of
 the weirder moments for shaping human culture and unfortunately for throwing gasoline on
 this already burning fire of conflict between the various factions of thought in this country.
 It's already a weird time post-Trump.
 The Trump era is also going to be one of the weirder times when people look back historically
 about the division in this country.
 He's such a polarizing figure that so many people felt like they could abandon their
 own ethics and morals and principles just to attack him and anybody who supports him
 because he is an existential threat to democracy itself.
 Don't you think it's not a cause but maybe like a symptom?
 You said it got real weird.
 Maybe it's going to get weirder.
 Yeah, I think it's going to get weirder.
 He's going to run again.
 You think he wins?
 Well, he's running against a dead man.
 Biden shakes hands with people that aren't even there when he gets off stage.
 I think he's seeing ghosts.
 You see him on Jimmy Kimmel the other day?
 No.
 Well, he was just rambling.
 If he was anyone else, if he was a Republican, if that was Donald Trump doing that, every
 fucking talk show would be screaming for him to be off the air.
 By the way, I'm not a Trump supporter in any way, shape or form.
 I've had the opportunity to have him on my show more than once.
 I've said no every time.
 I don't want to help him.
 I'm not interested in helping him.
 The night is still young.
 We'll see.
 If I have him on, the night is still young?
 You think I'll have him on?
 I think you'll have him on.
 Really?
 Why do you think that?
 Because you'll have Putin on?
 And you're competitive as fuck.
 No.
 I think ultimately, I mean, you've had a lot of people that I think you may otherwise be
 skeptical, would I have a good conversation, which I think is your metric.
 You don't care about politics.
 So can I have a good conversation?
 And I think you had people like Kanye on, for example, and you had a great conversation
 with him.
 I think you...
 Yeah, but Kanye is an artist.
 But Kanye doing well or not doing well doesn't change the course of our country.
 Yeah, but do you really bear the responsibility of the course of our country based on a conversation?
 I think you can revitalize and rehabilitate someone's image in a way that is pretty shocking.
 Look at the way people look at Alex Jones now, because Alex Jones has been on my podcast
 a few times.
 Yeah, how do they...
 Which direction?
 The people that have watched those podcasts think he's hilarious.
 And they think that he definitely fucked up with that whole Sandy Hook thing, but he's
 right more than he's wrong.
 And he's not an evil guy.
 He's just a guy who's had some psychotic breaks in his life.
 He's had some genuine mental health issues that he's addressed.
 He's had some serious bouts of alcoholism, some serious bouts of substance abuse, and
 they've contributed to some very poor thinking.
 But if you know the guy, if you get to know him, like I have, I've known him for more
 than 20 years, and if you know him on podcasts, you realize he is genuinely trying to unearth
 some things that are genuinely disturbing for most people.
 Like this is a guy that was telling me about Epstein's Island fucking decade ago, at least.
 He was telling me about, I was like, what?
 You're telling me there's a place where they bring elites to compromise them with underage
 girls and they film them.
 Really?
 Like what?
 Cut the fuck out of here.
 Like, no, President Clinton's been there.
 Everyone's been there.
 Like, what?
 It sounds like nonsense.
 And not only is it true, but people keep getting fucking murdered for it.
 Did you see that latest Clinton advisor that got murdered about it?
 Yep.
 Yeah.
 Hung with an extension cord, shot himself in the chest 30 miles from his house, and
 they're calling it a suicide.
 And now even Elon Musk is asking, where's the clientele list?
 Yeah.
 We should probably see who's been to that island.
 Yeah, we should probably see who's been to that island.
 And there's probably more of those kind of things out there that haven't been exposed.
 Yeah, but sort of to push back, you had those conversations with Alex Jones.
 Wouldn't you be able to have the same kind of conversation with Donald Trump?
 Yeah, that's the problem.
 No, it's not the problem.
 You revealed that Alex Jones is a human being.
 He's fucked up.
 He has demons in his head.
 He's obviously chaotic all over the place, but there's some wisdom to the perspective
 he takes on the world, even though he is often full of shit.
 He is able to predict certain things that very few people are willing to bring up.
 So isn't Trump the same way?
 Fucked up person, egomaniac, whatever personality things you can talk about.
 Isn't it worthwhile to lay it out?
 If you listen to interviews of Trump, who has the balls to call him out on his bullshit?
 Chris Wall stood.
 No, calling out somebody on their bullshit is easy when you're just being adversarial.
 But as a person who is genuinely empathetically trying to understand, I think you're really
 good at that.
 You pull them in.
 I don't know if he would genuinely be there.
 You know what I'm saying?
 I think he would be putting on a performance.
 You don't think he can break through that in 30 minutes?
 I'd need more time than that.
 And he doesn't do any drugs.
 That's the thing about Alex.
 You can get Alex high, get him drunk, and he'll start talking about interdimensional
 child molesters.
 And then you get the real Alex.
 Maybe you have somebody else on as well to introduce chaos, like Alex.
 No, no, no, no.
 I would have to be just me and him.
 That would be a focused thing.
 I would have to really take time with Trump.
 But also, I'm not well versed enough politically to know all of the corruption that's been
 alleged and to understand the whole Russiagate stuff.
 What's real?
 How much of it?
 It's clear that there is more than one organization that's involved in communicating with Russia
 before the 2016 elections.
 It's pretty clear that the Clinton administration was involved.
 It's pretty clear that the Trump administration had some communication with some people in
 Russia.
 It's pretty clear that Hunter Biden had some very suspicious dealings in Ukraine.
 There's a lot going on there, man.
 It's hard for anybody to parse.
 It's really hard for anybody, and especially to have an objective assessment of exactly
 what's going on, and then to be able to do that and broadcast it publicly.
 That's quite a project.
 And I think if you really want to do that correctly, it's something that I would have
 to research for a long time.
 And I don't have that kind of time.
 Not for, maybe for certain people that you're really curious about.
 You have that kind of time for Bob Lazar.
 Yes, yes.
 But maybe not for Donald Trump.
 No, that's different.
 Because Bob Lazar, what he's talking about, I wanted to know, with the Bob Lazar thing,
 I wanted to know, first of all, I want to be around him and see if I could smell bullshit.
 Did you?
 No, I didn't, man.
 That was what's weird about it.
 Not only did I not smell bullshit, I went over all of his interviews.
 He hasn't done a lot, but he's done enough.
 And he's done them over the course of 30 plus years.
 And it's alarming how consistent his story is, which is really weird when you think about
 you're talking about back engineering alien crafts and working on a top secret government
 test site that's carved into the side of a mountain and to camouflage it from satellites.
 It's such a wacky story.
 But the guy really did work at Los Alamos Labs.
 He really is a propulsion expert.
 He really is a scientist.
 Did he really work on back engineering UFOs?
 I don't know.
 But the way he described their motion is exactly like what's been observed by some of these
 pilots that have these videos that they've captured.
 And I just love that NASA, I've been hearing from a bunch of folks who they're legitimately
 funding research and there's people really taking this seriously of UFO sightings, investigating
 them, adding more and more sensors to collect data from just observing at higher and higher
 definitions.
 It's cool to finally see that.
 And he was one of the early people, whether he's full of shit or not, that forced people
 to start taking these topics seriously.
 Or at least force people to have conversations about them and maybe attempt to debunk them
 because it seems so preposterous, but then get sucked down the rabbit hole and start
 going, hmm, maybe.
 The thing is like the Fermi paradox, like where are they?
 And when you take into account just the sheer raw numbers, the vast majority of people objectively
 assume that there is life out there.
 The vast majority.
 Well, if you really take into account what we understand about the universe itself, what
 we understand about the concept of infinity and the way Neil deGrasse Tyson has explained
 it to me is that not only are there life forms out there, but there's you.
 You are out there.
 Infinity is so large that Lex Friedman exists and doesn't just exist, but exists an infinite
 number of times.
 Like the amount of interactions that cells and molecules, the same exact interactions
 that have happened here on Earth have happened in the exact same order an infinite number
 of times in the cosmos.
 Well, first of all, it's not certain that that's true.
 It's possible.
 It's possible.
 Like Sean Carroll, you know, especially with quantum mechanics, based on certain interpretation
 of quantum mechanics, that's very possible.
 But the question is, can you access those universes?
 Right.
 And so-
 How far away are they?
 The more sort of specific practical question is this local pocket of the universe, our
 galaxy or neighboring galaxies, are there aliens there?
 What do they look like?
 Are they-
 Right.
 So you can have this panspermia idea where a much larger, like daddy civilization, like
 rolled by and just planted a few aliens at a similar time.
 Like Prometheus.
 Yes.
 A different, you know, throughout the galaxy.
 And those are the ones we might be interacting with.
 They're all kind of dumb as we are relatively, you know, maybe a few million years apart.
 And then those are the ones we're interacting with.
 And then we have a chance to actually connect with them and communicate with them.
 Or it could be like much more wide open.
 And you have these gigantic alien civilizations that are expanding very, very quickly.
 And the interesting thing is when you look up at the sky and you see the stars, that's
 light from those stars.
 We might not be seeing the alien civilizations until they're already here.
 Meaning-
 Right.
 Like you start expanding.
 Once you get really good at expanding, you're going to be expanding very close to the speed
 of light.
 So right now we don't see much in the sky, but there could be one night, one day we wake
 up and it's just like everywhere and they're here.
 Right.
 Right.
 Because the amount of time the light takes to reach us.
 Yeah.
 And then the thing that I've been really fascinated by is these alternative forms of transportation
 that they're discussing.
 Like the ability to harness wormholes and the ability to do things that a type three
 civilization is capable of.
 I had Michio Kaku on my podcast recently.
 Fantastic.
 Love that guy.
 He's so good at taking extremely complex concepts and boiling them down for digestion and saying
 them in a way that other people can appreciate.
 And not being hesitant about saying wild, crazy shit that's out there, but grounded
 in what's actually possible.
 Yeah.
 He's all in on this UFO phenomenon now.
 He's like now the burden of proof is to people for people to come up with some sort of a
 conventional explanation for these things.
 He goes, because these things are defying all the concepts of physics that we currently
 know in terms of what our capabilities are and propulsion systems and so many other
 things that what we know about what current science is capable of reproducing as far as
 what we know.
 The problem is like these military projects that are top secret.
 Like how much money do they have?
 They have a lot of money.
 But is it possible, and maybe you could speak to this, is it possible that there could be
 some propulsion systems that have been developed and implemented that are far beyond just the
 simple burning of rocket fuel, pushing the fire out the back which forces the rocket
 at extreme speeds forward, that's something that does harness gravity, something that
 can distort space and time and can make travel from one point to another like preposterously
 fast?
 Well, not only is it possible, I think it's likely that that kind of stuff would be kept
 a secret.
 Yeah.
 The only thing you see about the way either if it's contractors like Lockheed Martin or
 if it's DOD, the actual Department of Defense, they operate in complete secrecy.
 Just even looking at the history of the stealth fighter, just even stealth technology was
 kept a secret for a very, very long time.
 And not until you're ready to use it and need to use it does it become public and not officially
 public, it's being detected out in the wild.
 So there's going to be a process where you're secretly testing it and that might creep up,
 which is maybe what we're seeing.
 And then it's waiting for the next big war, the next big reason to use the thing.
 And so yeah, there's definitely technologies in that.
 There might not be propulsion technologies, there could be AI surveillance technologies,
 there could be different kinds of stealth drones, it could be also in cyberspace, like
 cyber war weapons, all that kind of stuff that they're obviously going to become secret.
 I'm very skeptical lately.
 And the reason why I'm skeptical is the government keeps talking about it.
 The Pentagon keeps talking about it, NASA keeps talking about it.
 In which direction are you skeptical?
 I'm skeptical that they're aliens.
 I think most likely it's a smokescreen and most likely these are some sort of incredibly
 advanced drones that they've developed that they want to pretend don't exist.
 That seems the more likely scenario because otherwise my take is what's the benefit of
 them discussing these things?
 What's the benefit of them discussing these things openly?
 The way they described it, off-world crafts not made from this earth, why?
 Why would they tell us that?
 I mean, unless there's an imminent danger of us being invaded and they want to prepare
 people so they don't freak out as much, like maybe freak them out a little bit, say that
 publicly, the New York Times article, the Pentagon discussing it, all these different
 things happening.
 Test the waters.
 Well, let people know that this is a thing.
 My take is like that.
 I don't think they do that.
 I don't think they tell us.
 I think the government has a lot of contempt for the citizens.
 I really do.
 I think they have contempt for our intelligence.
 They have contempt for our need to know things.
 I also think they think that they are running us.
 It's not we're all in this together and the government works for the people and the government
 is of the people.
 I don't think they think that way.
 Yeah.
 The basic idea is you can't trust the populace to govern itself because we're a bunch of
 idiots.
 Yeah.
 I think that's accurate.
 Well, they're not wrong, but they're also idiots, power hungry idiots.
 Yeah.
 I don't think everyone's an idiot, but I think there are enough idiots that it becomes a
 real problem if you're completely honest about everything you do.
 You don't want to let everybody weigh in about things that are incredibly complex and that
 most people are ignorant of.
 On top of that, there's this machine of intelligence.
 I've recently been reading a lot about the KGB, about the FSB.
 Several things sparked my curiosity.
 One, I'm traveling to Ukraine and to Moscow.
 Because of that, I started to ask practical questions of myself, just travel and all those
 kinds of things.
 I started reading a lot about the KGB.
 Jack Barsky has a book on this.
 I talked to him.
 You start to realize, you probably looked into some of this, but you just start to realize
 the scale of surveillance and manipulation.
 Now, a lot of them also talk about the incompetence of those organizations.
 The usual bureaucracy creeps in.
 But the point is, it seems like there's no line they're not willing to cross for the
 purpose of gathering intelligence, for the purpose of controlling people in order to
 gather intelligence.
 Now, this is MI6, FSB.
 There's not much information about the FSB or the GRU, but the KGB.
 We're always like 20 years behind or more on the action information.
 I start to wonder.
 I have not officially been contacted by any intelligence agency, but I started to wonder,
 well, is there somebody I know that's doing that undercover CIA or undercover FSB, undercover
 anything?
 You probably do.
 Have you asked yourself this question?
 Yeah, for sure.
 Yeah, people that have been on my podcast.
 Yeah, for sure.
 Do you think there was actually a guest that may have been?
 100%.
 Oh, man.
 Who'd you know?
 I have suspicions.
 Do you care?
 Is this?
 I mean, it depends on what they're attempting to do, right?
 If I felt like there was some deception involved and they were trying to use the podcast to
 manipulate a narrative in a deceptive way to trick people into things, yeah, I would
 care.
 But this is exactly what... Those are the kind of things they do.
 They do plant narratives.
 Yeah.
 I would imagine if you have the number one podcast in the world, that people would want
 to infiltrate that.
 Yeah, there's probably meetings in all major intelligence agencies about, okay, what are
 the large platforms?
 How do we spread the message?
 Yeah.
 Well, I mean, that's the thing that really emerged when we were talking about during
 my cancellation, that there's a clear... There's no objective analysis of this in mainstream
 media.
 There's clear narratives that they're trying to push forward to, whether it's to promote
 certain ideas or to diminish the power and reach of people who are mavericks or people
 who aren't connected to a system that you can't compromise.
 That's where it gets dangerous, right?
 Where it gets dangerous is when someone has the largest reach but is also completely detached
 and clearly is independent in the sense of independent thinking, has on whoever he wants.
 But your mind can still be manipulated.
 I guess I can.
 I mean, I guess everybody can be manipulated a certain way.
 I manipulate my own mind, I'm sure too.
 But I also spend a lot of time thinking about what I think.
 I don't just accept things, like the UFO thing.
 I was all in for a while and now I'm like, man, something smells fishy.
 And then I'm thinking like, here's my problem with the UFO thing.
 I want it to be real so bad.
 That's my problem with it.
 I'm such a sucker.
 I want it to be real so bad.
 And that's a problem for me because I'm aware of it.
 And so then I stop and think about what is my desire for UFO truth to be exposed?
 Well, it's because it's fun.
 That's what it is.
 So I have a desire for it to be real.
 And I mean, I've talked to a bunch of folks about this, those with connection with DOD.
 And they do draw lines between people that are full of shit and people who are not.
 There's a lot of people in the public sphere that they say are full of shit.
 Yeah, for sure.
 And then you have to kind of tell the difference.
 Yeah, CNN.
 Watch them talk.
 Well, I mean, even on the UFO topic, there's certain individuals that are like, okay, they're
 just like using this.
 In fact, like people who are not full of shit are often very quiet, which is why, you know,
 even Bob Lazar is an interesting story because he was trying to be quiet for the longest
 time.
 Well, he was worried about his own life, according to Bob, and that's why he went public with
 it.
 And initially, the first videos he did with George Knapp, they hit his identity.
 And then he felt like that wasn't enough.
 And he really needed to expose his own identity just to protect his life, which is a great
 story.
 You know, so you got to go, well, that seems so juicy.
 I want to buy into it.
 And that's where I get nervous.
 You don't know.
 You don't know who to trust.
 Right.
 Exactly.
 How do you figure out who to trust in your life?
 You're Joe Rogan.
 A lot of people want to be close to you CIA agents, FSB agents, people that were-
 I'm friends with a former CIA agent, Mike Baker, who's been on my podcast a bunch of
 times.
 Allegedly former.
 Former.
 Think about that.
 He's air quotes former.
 Yeah.
 I don't believe he's former.
 I'm sure he has some connection to him.
 I also believe he's a good guy.
 But I gain a lot of very intelligent and well-informed insights from him as to how things work.
 And I think, I'm sure he doesn't tell me everything about everything, but he's told me enough
 where I think I can understand things better from talking to him about the way the elves
 work under the machine.
 What about friends?
 How do you know if you can trust?
 Well, most of my friends are old friends.
 Time.
 So time is the thing.
 Like just going through shit together.
 Yeah.
 And also people that, first of all, comics.
 You can trust comics?
 Yeah.
 Comics are pretty trustworthy.
 They're good ones.
 They're really good ones.
 There's not that many of us.
 If there's a thousand professional comics on earth, I'd be stunned.
 I'd be stunned.
 I don't even think there's a thousand.
 Real professionals who you get booked all the time, headline weekends at clubs and theaters
 and arenas.
 And then there's levels to that.
 There's the guys who are middle acts who barely scrape by.
 And then how many headliners are there?
 How many really funny headliners?
 I would say, if you Lex, you tell me you're going to be in Cincinnati, hey, this person's
 playing at this club.
 Should I go see them?
 I'd be like, eh.
 How many people would I give the recommendation to?
 And then how many people sell out theaters?
 How many people sell out arenas?
 There's not that fucking many.
 So those people, like at the levels of comedy where you've been doing standup for 20 years,
 there's a certain amount of honesty and a certain amount of understanding of each other
 that we all have.
 Oh, so that process of becoming a great comic is humbling in the way Jiu Jitsu is humbling.
 Very similar.
 Like you've eaten so much shit that somehow, even if you're insane, even if you're chaotic,
 even in the way, even if you're full of shit, you lie a lot, all those kinds of things,
 underneath it, there's a good human.
 You could be surface bullshitter, but on important things, you're trustworthy.
 Hopefully.
 I mean, if you're not, then people shy away from you.
 And there are people like that too, that are really successful, but that are what I call
 islands.
 I've talked to other comics about that.
 You don't want to be an island because there's these people that aren't attached to the rest
 of the community and they're doing well on their own.
 And usually they have like one opening act they bring with them on the road.
 They've worked with forever and they don't have comedy friends.
 And those people are miserable because they can't relate.
 Sometimes fame in itself is isolating.
 So you have to actually do a lot of work and make sure you don't, it doesn't isolate you.
 Because if you become successful, people start wanting stuff from you.
 And then sometimes you want to push them away because of that, as opposed to connect with
 them.
 I kind of enjoy it when people want things from me.
 It's not fun.
 You just ignore it.
 Yeah, it's fucking too heavy.
 They want too much.
 It's too much of a disproportionate relationship.
 It's too unbalanced.
 Because there are people where you could tell that they're working towards something.
 They're working towards an angle and they want to be close to you because you will benefit
 them.
 And then there's other people that are just, there's not that many of us.
 And so we all want to hang out together.
 One of the podcasts I love the most is this podcast I do called Protect Our Parks.
 It's a thing I do with Ari Shafir, Shane Gillis, and Mark Nalep.
 It's so fun because we just get obliterated and we talk so much shit.
 There's conversations after that podcast where I go, hey man, we got to cut that part out.
 Because Shane will go too far, go too crazy, but we're just making each other laugh and
 it's just fun.
 And it's like that kind of camaraderie between real comics is very precious to me.
 My favorite part of that is the non sequitur stuff from Mark Norman.
 And you guys get so trashed that you don't even understand what the hell he's talking
 about.
 But it's funny to the listener because he's still on point.
 That guy's as sharp.
 He's got that Mitch Hedberg quality wit.
 Well he's such a dedicated comic.
 He loves comedy so much.
 That's one of the things I love about him.
 He's like, comedy!
 He gets excited.
 He loves it.
 It's as does Shane and as does Ari.
 They really love it.
 So there's that.
 I have friends in that way and I have martial arts friends who are some of the also the
 thing about being humbled, how things like Jiu Jitsu will humble you.
 Martial arts friends are, they're also, they know who's been through it.
 They know who really has gone through the gauntlet and emerged on the other end a better
 person.
 Yeah.
 You said there's very few of us.
 Let's have the goat discussion.
 You're not going to pick anybody, but who are the greats of comedy?
 Who's the greatest comic of all time?
 I don't think there is a greatest comic of all time.
 Is it Norm MacDonald?
 Norm MacDonald was one of the greats for sure.
 Well by the way, actually on that topic, what do you think about his?
 I think as a person who was fascinated by the fear of death and death, I think it was
 a truly genius thing to release a special after you're dead.
 I don't know how that worked.
 I haven't seen the special of you.
 It's not.
 Yeah.
 It's, it's, um, it's called, I think nothing special.
 It sounds like something Norm would say.
 And it's basically him in front of, I mean, I imagine he wouldn't have wanted it edited
 that way because it's made to look nicer than I think he probably would have preferred it.
 Uh, but it's him in front of the screen, like on a zoom call doing jokes without lap cold.
 Really?
 Yeah.
 And somehow given his like dry dark humor, it works because it's almost making fun of
 itself.
 Almost making fun of that whole that we were stuck, stuck alone inside.
 And because he's still acting as if he's in front of the audience and is almost making
 fun of the fact that this is what we're forced to do.
 I mean, it's quite genius.
 It's really well, and the jokes are really good, but it also makes you realize how important
 laughter is from the audience, the energy from the audience because, uh, but there's
 this also an intimacy because it's just you and him because you're listening into it.
 You know, there's no audience.
 Yeah.
 I don't know.
 It's, I think it's quite genius.
 And he is, of course there's, there's certain comics that are like, not only are they funny,
 but they're truly unique in like they're, they're, they're not in terms of, um, friendship
 and all that kind of stuff, but in terms of comedy, they're an island.
 Yeah.
 It's like they, you know, Mitch Hedberg probably is that, of course a lot of people then start
 to imitate them and so on.
 But Steven Wright, Steven Wright.
 I mean, there's like people who are like, you know, Dave Chappelle, who's like probably
 one of the greats, but he's just like raw funny.
 Yeah.
 I don't know if he's an island.
 He's just raw.
 Oh yeah.
 I know what you're saying.
 An outlier, unique individual.
 Yeah.
 He's just great.
 Um, Norm was definitely unique in his greatness.
 Like like there's only one norm, you know, who's got a very specific style.
 Is there a reason you guys weren't, it doesn't seem like he was, you guys were close.
 I mean, I loved him.
 He was great.
 I always enjoyed talking to him.
 Um, we just didn't work together that often.
 We weren't around each other that often.
 That's all it was.
 But it wasn't like, uh, it was, I loved him though.
 He was a great guy.
 I had a funny story about it, Norm.
 Uh, twice just randomly, I was on airplanes next to him seated right next to him, just
 totally random.
 Yeah.
 And, uh, one time we're on this, uh, airplane and we're having this talk and I was like,
 yeah, quit smoking.
 Uh, it was a smoking a lot and I just had terrible, terrible smoke.
 It's terrible for you.
 And we have this great conversation.
 We get off the plane and he sprints towards a store and buy cigarettes like in the airport
 and is lighting it on the way out the door.
 And I go, I thought you quit smoking.
 It was, yeah, I did.
 But all that talking about smoking made me want to smoke again.
 So before he's getting through the door of the airport, he's lighting it up.
 I can't wait.
 Oh, he can't wait to get that cigarette in him.
 It was, he was just so crazy and impulsive and loved to gamble.
 Love gambling.
 And in that way he embodied the joke.
 Like you can't even tell the certain people just like live in a non sequitur ridiculous,
 absurd, funny way.
 Yeah, that was him.
 I mean, nonstop.
 There was nothing artificial about Norm.
 That was who he was.
 His brilliance was his essence.
 That was who he was.
 But it's in terms of like the greats, the Godfather of it all is Lenny Bruce.
 I mean, I have a bunch of Lenny Bruce concert posters at my house and photos that I have
 framed and Whitney Cummings actually gave me this brilliant photo of him when he got
 arrested for one of the times when he got arrested for saying obscene jokes.
 He was the most important figure in the early days of comedy because he essentially gave
 birth to the modern art form of standup comedy.
 Before that it was a bunch of guys that were like hosting shows and they would tell jokes.
 They were just like, you know, two guys walking to a bar, that kind of stuff.
 And he would talk about social issues.
 He would talk about life.
 He would talk about language.
 He would talk about laws.
 And it was just he was the very first guy who did modern standup.
 And what's fascinating is if you go and you try to watch it, if you try to watch Lenny
 Bruce today, it doesn't work because society has evolved.
 In many ways, art is a window, especially pop culture art or modern, at the time, culture
 art, art that discusses culture is a window into that time period.
 It's a little bit of a time machine.
 So you get to like, you have to pull yourself, what was it like to be in 1963?
 Like, what was he saying in 1963?
 What was this like to hear him say this?
 And the civilization that existed in 1963, although it looked pretty similar, they're
 all driving cars and they're all wearing suits and they're all, it seems normal.
 It's a different world.
 And the things that he was saying that are so taboo are so normal today that they're
 not shocking.
 And it's not that good.
 It's not that funny.
 Yeah, you have to do the same kind of stuff for like, there's a DH Lawrence is a book
 called Lady Shadow's Lover.
 And I know it sounds ridiculous, but it was one of the early books, I believe at the over
 a century ago, that was very controversial for its sexual content.
 It's sort of one of the great books because it dared to actually talk about a woman cheating
 on her husband and like, and do so in the highest form.
 And the same thing with Gulag Archipelago talking about some of the darkest aspects
 of human history, right when all of that stuff is forbidden, when it's banned.
 Because now it's like, yes, we all know this history, but when in the middle of it, when
 you're risking your own life, when you're risking your book being banned or burned or
 you being in prison, that's when it matters, like taking that risk.
 Yeah.
 And no one took that risk more than Lenny Bruce.
 Lenny Bruce was arrested many, many times and ultimately it wound up costing him his
 life.
 I mean, he died on the bathroom floor shooting heroin and trying to cope with all the lawsuits
 that he was going through.
 I mean, this guy was constantly being arrested and constantly going through lawsuits.
 And then his comedy deteriorated horribly.
 There's some footage of him towards the end of his career where he's essentially would
 go on stage with legal papers and read from the legal papers about his case.
 From then it's Richard Pryor.
 From him then the next great is Richard Pryor.
 And he had the most profound impact on me when I was a kid.
 When I was 15 years old, my parents took me to see Live at the Sunset Strip, which is
 a Richard Pryor's concert film.
 And I remember very distinctly being in that audience and laughing and looking around at
 all the people in the audience who were like falling out of their chairs, just dying laughing,
 just swaying back and forth.
 And I was laughing hard too.
 And I was like, my God, this guy's doing this just by talking.
 I thought of all the great movies that I'd seen that I loved that were hilarious comedy
 movies.
 And I was like, nothing that I've ever seen is as funny as this.
 And all he's doing is talking.
 And that planted a seed in my head for my love of standup comedy and my curiosity about
 the art form.
 And that's what got me interested in watching it on television and then ultimately going
 to open mic nights and then eventually doing it.
 I've actually been going to open mics a lot recently, just listening.
 For psychological examinations of people.
 No, it's actually really inspiring to me to see people that some are funny, some are not
 so funny, unapologetically trying, putting it all out there night after night, like eating
 shit.
 Yeah.
 My favorite is when you're talking about like five people in the audience and the jokes
 are just not landing.
 And they still, I don't know, it feels like even just empathetically, there's few things
 as difficult as that.
 It's hard.
 I still remember those days.
 Many comics will say this, and I think Dane Cook was the first person I heard say it publicly,
 that if he ever had to go back and do it again, like from scratch, doesn't think he could
 do it.
 Doesn't think he could endure the struggle of open mic to, you know, ultimately to success.
 And the numbers of people that try it and fail versus try and succeed are off the charts.
 I don't know if there's any other art form that has such a low rate of success.
 Because it's psychological, it's torture.
 It is torture and it's also not something you can learn.
 Like here's the thing, like if you play guitar, you can learn to play guitar.
 Somebody can teach you the chords.
 And if you do it, you could do all along the watchtower, you could play it.
 You can't teach someone how to do comedy.
 You think it's you're funny or not?
 Or can you still figure it out?
 Like can you still learn?
 You can figure it out.
 Yeah.
 Can you start being unfunny and become funny?
 Yes, it's possible.
 It's not easy though.
 You're going to have to eat a lot of shit.
 You're going to have to eat a lot of shit and you're going to have to examine why you're
 not funny.
 And you're going to have to spend a lot of time with uncomfortable thoughts and try to
 figure out what it is.
 Like what's missing?
 Like, you know, could you edit your stuff and make it better?
 Maybe you need to do drugs.
 Maybe you need to get involved in psychedelic drugs and rethink the way you interface with
 reality itself.
 Maybe you need your heart broken.
 Maybe you need to be in love.
 Maybe there's a lot of maybes there.
 Like maybe you just need more life experience.
 But you know, when I started comedy, I was 21 and I was a moron.
 I had no information.
 You know, I could do impressions of people and I could talk about sex.
 Those are the things that I was interested in back then.
 I mean, if I was talking philosophically, I didn't have a philosophy.
 I didn't have a unique perspective on life.
 I hadn't experienced much.
 So every time you bomb, it forces you to introspect, to ask questions of yourself.
 And then that's how you actually develop a philosophy.
 Yeah.
 Or what you actually believe.
 You learn through doing.
 And I think you could say that about podcasting too.
 You know, I'm certainly way better at having conversations than I ever was when I first
 started doing comedy or when I first started doing podcasts.
 You learn to stick with a kid because one day you'll be able to interview Donald Trump.
 You'd be mad enough to handle that conversation.
 How hard is it to do?
 Because I've been really curious.
 It's been on my bucket list because I'm terrified.
 I want to do everything I'm terrified of.
 You got to do stand up?
 No.
 But I do want to do like one five minute, like open mic.
 Why don't you do Kill Tony?
 How hard is it to do five minutes, would you say?
 It's hard.
 Well, it depends on how long you've been thinking about doing comedy.
 It depends on how you look at things.
 And also depends on your style of comedy.
 Like the most difficult style of comedy is like, I think like Steven Wright style is
 probably the most difficult style of comedy, complete non sequiturs.
 One subject doesn't lead into the next.
 There's no flow to it.
 It's just, I noticed this, I noticed that.
 And then there's this and then there's that.
 And that's hard to memorize.
 And it's really hard to piece together an hour of non sequiturs.
 But it's easier because you can rely on the joke.
 It sits more with the joke.
 Like whether you're funny or not is on the actual material versus like the timing and
 the energy, the dance with the audience, right?
 Because like if you don't have the raw jokes like Steven Wright does or Mitch Hedberg,
 then you have to, it's all about the delivery.
 Yeah.
 And yeah, they either kill or they bomb.
 Is it random?
 Like whether they kill or bomb?
 Yeah.
 Well, I mean, you're essentially a different person every day of your life.
 You know, you're similar, but you're more tired.
 You're more rested.
 You're exhausted.
 You're refreshed.
 You have vitamins and food nourishment in your system.
 You just get your heart broken.
 You haven't slept in days.
 You're a different person all the time.
 And you go onto that stage.
 You're in the neighborhood of who Lex Friedman is.
 You're in the Lex Friedman neighborhood.
 Which Lex Friedman am I going to get?
 Yeah.
 You know, energy levels.
 Yeah.
 It depends.
 It all depends.
 But oh, the other thing with Kill Tony is it's videotaped.
 So you eating shit is on there forever.
 Forever.
 The world can see it.
 But it's one of the most important shows in comedy.
 It's the most important show in comedy because first of all, it establishes stand up in a
 sense that like for the open micers, for the people that are starting it out, it establishes
 that the most important thing is to be funny.
 Like this is what the art form is all about.
 And there's a lot of insecurity attached to that and a lot of fears.
 And so to alleviate some of those insecurities and fears, people will decide that the message
 is more important and they'll pretend that you have to have...
 You have to be socially aware that you have to promote things that are positive in your
 comedy, which is bullshit.
 The people that say that, they're all bad.
 They're all bad at comedy.
 And that's where the insecurity is.
 It's like they can't just kill.
 So they have to pretend that they're supposed to be socially aware and that being socially
 aware is an important part in society.
 Let me explain something really clearly.
 There's not a fucking person on earth who's ever changed their life because of a joke.
 That's not what they're there for.
 They're there for jokes.
 The people that say that, they say that socially important comedy is the only comedy that's
 necessary, the only comedy that you have to do.
 That is just because they suck.
 That is it.
 It's like the cop out is that they can't do the real comedy.
 They can't crush.
 It's not like someone goes from being like Shane Gillis, one of the best comics up and
 coming right now.
 He's fucking fantastic.
 I can't recommend enough seeing that guy live.
 I work with him in Irvine and I hadn't seen his whole set.
 I was crying.
 I mean, he's so good.
 I heard he's a racist.
 I haven't listened to any of his material.
 He's so good.
 And his comedy is just all just trying to be as funny as possible.
 There's not a chance in hell that guy's just going to go woke and he's just going to start
 promoting some sort of socially conscious agenda that's facetious and just a bunch of
 nonsense that he's trying to elevate his own personal brand and virtue signal.
 That's not going to happen.
 The thing about Kill Tony is in that because you only have one minute and because it's
 live and because you don't want Tony shitting on you or everybody else shitting on you,
 everybody's just gearing up to try to be as funny as possible.
 And no one cares if you are gay or straight or Asian or black or trans or non-binary.
 Nobody gives a fuck.
 Are you funny?
 If you're funny, you're in and everybody loves you.
 You could be 80.
 You could be 20.
 Nobody gives a shit.
 You could be a woman or a man or ambiguous.
 Nobody fucking cares.
 Are you funny?
 That's the most important thing for a community of comedy to really promote comedy.
 Just funny.
 Just be funny.
 And so in that sense, Kill Tony is a real cornerstone of comedy.
 It's a reminder of what comedy is supposed to be.
 That said, even the funniest stuff has underneath it some wisdom that comes out of it, but that's
 not the primary goal of it.
 Yeah.
 I mean, it might be inspiring and fun.
 Oh, Tim Dillon's a great example of that.
 Yeah.
 He's got some amazing insights in his comedy, but it's still...
 It's all about...
 It's fucking comedy.
 It's all about the funny.
 Yeah.
 It's all about the funny.
 He's the best at doing that, especially in a podcast form, about weaving really important
 points in with hilarious, obviously just jokes.
 Let me ask you, speaking of Tim Dillon, a chaotic, fucked up individual, can we go to
 your childhood real quick?
 A brief stroll.
 So your mom and dad split up when you were five.
 From a younging perspective, if you look at your subconscious, what impact do you think
 that had on you, informing who you are as a man, as a human being?
 Well, at the time, I thought that my father was like a hero.
 He was my dad.
 I think every kid thinks like that about his dad.
 His dad is like, your dad's your protector.
 Your dad is like the coolest guy in the world.
 That's what you like.
 You want to be like him.
 Yeah.
 Everybody wants to be like their dad, especially if your dad is like an imposing figure.
 I remember one time me and my cousin got in a fight over nothing.
 It was like over who's tougher, King Kong or Godzilla.
 Yeah.
 Over nothing.
 That's an important...
 But yeah.
 He said Godzilla.
 Actual fight?
 Actual physical fight.
 Oh, I punched him in the face.
 This is when you were like five?
 Yeah.
 Yeah.
 Which side were you on?
 King Kong.
 Okay.
 I was wrong.
 Godzilla's like way bigger.
 Yeah.
 Godzilla's 500 feet tall and he shoots fire out of his mouth.
 Yeah.
 Are you sure?
 I mean, there's an argument to be made.
 It's not all about size, right?
 No, there's no argument to be made.
 500 feet tall versus 50 feet tall.
 One's a gigantic dinosaur.
 One is a stupid monkey who gets shot down by a plane.
 You can't kill Godzilla.
 Godzilla?
 No.
 No.
 You can't kill Godzilla with a plane.
 That shit wouldn't work in Godzilla.
 Killed King Kong.
 King Kong in the new movies kept growing.
 He's getting bigger and bigger.
 Yeah.
 It got to the point where he's as big as Godzilla.
 It just feels like King Kong is stronger.
 Stop.
 Backtake.
 Backtake.
 Immediate backtake.
 You don't think there's a backtake?
 There's a difference between...
 If he's the same size.
... human weapons and two animals going at it of a different size.
 You don't think there's, in the jungle, a smaller animal can take on a bigger animal.
 You got monkey versus, let's see, a lion.
 Monkey versus a bear.
 What?
 Who wins?
 A monkey versus a bear?
 Not a monkey.
 What's the strongest ape?
 A gorilla?
 No, but gorilla, okay.
 Gorilla can't do backtakes.
 I'm thinking of a smaller...
 You know what I'm saying?
 Because in Jiu-Jitsu, you see this all the time.
 Do you remember that scene in Talladega Nights?
 Do you know Talladega Nights?
 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
 Where the little boy's talking to his grandpa, I'll be all over you like a spider monkey.
 Exactly.
 Spider monkey.
 I was thinking...
 All right.
 There's some animals.
 Here's a better example.
 A wolverine.
 Wolverines chase wolves and bears off of their kills.
 They're not very big at all.
 They're just so ferocious.
 They're so durable.
 It's very hard to kill a wolverine.
 Yeah.
 It's because of cats, not actual cats, domestic cats or domestic dogs starting shit with much
 larger animals.
 Yeah.
 If they're ferocious enough, it works.
 Pit bulls are a great example of that.
 Pit bulls are small.
 Real game bred pit bulls are 35, 45 pounds and they'll kill much larger dogs.
 Anyway, you were on King Kong's side.
 Yeah.
 You eat shit out of your cousin.
 I remember he said to me...
 I thought it was in real trouble because I remember my cousin's mom was yelling at me
 and was like, you monster, all this crazy shit.
 My dad got me alone and he said, tell me what happened.
 I told him, we got in a fight.
 We were arguing.
 We were King Kong Godzilla and I punched him in the face.
 He goes, did you cry?
 I go, no.
 He goes, good.
 Don't ever cry.
 I remember that.
 Like, whoa.
 Okay.
 I remember thinking, all right, I'm just going to start punching people.
 Because obviously my dad thinks it's a good idea if I go running around punching people
 as long as I don't cry.
 I remember certain things about...
 Also this is again, we're talking about watching Lenny Bruce and getting a timeline of what
 the world was like back then.
 This was a different world.
 This would have been 1972.
 It's a different world back then, man.
 Like a really different world.
 It's some of that.
 So Carl Jung talked about the shadow.
 It's the unconscious where you have dark stuff and oftentimes you use it to project.
 There's stuff that you're very self-critical about yourself, but because it's in your unconscious,
 you use it to project onto others.
 You see it as flaws in others.
 And that's a good way to...
 Whatever, I think he has a quote, like everything that irritates us about others can lead us
 to an understanding of ourselves.
 So that's a nice way to investigate yourself.
 Something that pisses you off.
 You start asking questions of your own mind and that's how you bring it to the surface.
 But anyway, from that, those are formative years.
 From that time, is there still stuff in your unconscious you think you haven't examined?
 Some dark shit.
 I don't think so.
 I'm not aware if it is, because I've looked.
 If someone says, I left something over your house, where'd you leave it?
 I don't know.
 I'll go look.
 I'll get a real thorough look.
 But I'm pretty sure.
 Pretty sure it's not there.
 Yeah.
 I don't know.
 I think I've looked.
 It certainly had an effect.
 I think the positive effect also was compounded by the fact that when my mother married my
 stepdad, who's a great guy, who was a hippie, very different, we moved around a lot.
 The bad thing about that was I didn't really develop long-term friends.
 The good thing about that was that I was forced to develop my own opinions about things.
 Instead of adopting an opinion of the neighborhood and the group about anything, I was forced
 to form my own thoughts and opinions about almost everything.
 It made me much more of an independent thinker.
 That on top of the fact that losing my quote unquote hero very early on and then having
 to form my own opinions about things, it left me with a very independent streak.
 If I hadn't done the things that I got interested in, martial arts and then comedy, if I hadn't
 gotten interested in those things, I would have been fucked because I was just too independent
 for normal jobs.
 I was too independent for school.
 I just didn't want to listen to people.
 I was too feral.
 I just didn't want to sit still.
 If I was with the wrong parents, especially today, I most certainly would have been medicated.
 Yeah, there's so many possible trajectories you can imagine where you would have not been
 the person you are today.
 Oh yeah.
 This is probably one of the best possible trajectories.
 This particular storyline you're living through was one of the better ones.
 This timeline is as good as it gets for someone like me.
 Is there advice you can give to young kids that are living through a shitty situation
 of any sort, a tough life?
 Find a thing you like.
 Try to find a thing that you really enjoy.
 Try to find a thing that you're passionate about.
 Like an activity.
 Yes.
 For me, early on, it was drawing.
 It was illustrations.
 It was comic books.
 I wanted to be a comic book illustrator.
 And then it went from comic book drawing and illustrations to martial arts.
 But it was just another thing that I was very, very passionate about.
 And that was my vehicle out of my dilemma.
 That was my vehicle out of my own anxiety and trauma and my own issues and insecurities.
 Find something.
 Find a thing that you genuinely enjoy because getting good at things you genuinely enjoy
 is extremely beneficial for young people because it lets you know that everybody thinks they're
 a loser.
 Every young person thinks they're a loser.
 At least a young person in the situation I was at.
 I didn't know I wasn't a loser until I started winning, until I started doing martial arts.
 Martial arts taught me that I could get better at stuff, that I wasn't really a loser.
 I just was someone who was in a fucked up situation.
 But you could channel all that energy that you have as a young person into something
 and get better at it.
 And then all of a sudden people admired me.
 I was like, this is crazy.
 So I went from being someone who was incredibly insecure and basically a failure to someone
 who was really successful at this one thing that was very dangerous that other people
 were scared of.
 And that gave me immense confidence and also a real understanding of the direct correlation
 between hard work and success.
 And the kind of understanding that you're not a loser.
 Right.
 That there is some diamond in the rough.
 Yeah.
 And also an understanding that you can't listen to people because even my parents didn't want
 me to do martial arts.
 They didn't want me to fight.
 They didn't want me to do stand up.
 You have to understand who you are and then in the face of other people's either criticism
 or lack of faith in your ability to succeed, you push through and there's great benefit
 in that.
 And you realize that you can kind of apply that to other things in life.
 You can apply that to critics.
 You can apply that to social media commentators.
 You can apply that to a lot of things.
 Okay.
 What about young people in their fifties?
 Can you give advice to like, imagine you're sitting back probably still here in Texas
 in your nineties, looking back, what advice would that guy give to you today?
 Or like people that have done some shit in their fifties, you've gone through a hell
 of a life.
 There's potentially some incentive to settle down.
 You got a great family to relax, but maybe there's some incentive to still do epic shit,
 still be David Goggins running in the middle of the desert, screaming shit into a camera.
 If you're David Goggins, you have to be David Goggins.
 I don't think there's a path for that guy that exists at this stage of his life other
 than that.
 Do you think he'll be 70 and still screaming?
 Yes.
 Okay.
 A hundred percent.
 A hundred percent.
 If David and I are alive, we're both 70, he's going to call me up and say, stay hard motherfucker.
 Guaranteed.
 Guaranteed.
 So lean into whatever the fuck you are at this point.
 Well, if you're enjoying it, but if you're not enjoying it, rethink your life.
 Try to figure out why you're not enjoying it.
 You still think it's possible to shift things in your fifties?
 Yeah.
 If you're alive, you can get better.
 No matter what.
 Yeah, no matter what.
 If you're alive, you can shift things.
 If you're 90 years old and you have a month to live, you can apologize for the things
 you think you did wrong and maybe reconcile and shape relationships that you have with
 the people that are around you better so that they feel differently about you after you're
 gone.
 Yeah.
 I always love people in their seventies who are getting back into dating or something
 like that.
 Yeah.
 I was watching a video about a woman who's in her sixties who just started powerlifting.
 Nice.
 Yeah.
 And same with jujitsu.
 You see people get into jujitsu.
 Mm-hmm.
 Yeah.
 A white belt that's like 70.
 Yeah.
 Yeah.
 Yeah.
 If you're alive, you can get better at stuff.
 I don't think people are happy if they don't have puzzles and complex tasks and things
 that are interesting to them, whether it's an art project or whether it's learning something
 completely new like stand-up comedy.
 Doing things that are difficult is as much of a nourishment of the mind as food is a
 nourishment of the body.
 I think you need things that are puzzling to you where you have to find your own human
 potential in the difficulty of the task and work your way through things, at least for
 me.
 For me, I can only speak for me because I'm the only life that I've ever lived that I'm
 aware of.
 In my life, that has been 100% constant.
 I am a very happy person and I have never had a moment where I'm not doing difficult
 shit ever.
 What matters most is how well you walk through the fires.
 You just keep starting fires for yourself to walk through.
 Well, they don't necessarily have to be fires because fires are out of control.
 Lukewarm-
 Tasks.
... the surfaces.
 Tasks.
 Give yourself something, an arduous, difficult task where you're challenged, challenged mentally
 and challenged physically.
 One of the great things about being challenged physically is it's also mental.
 The people that don't understand that have never really been challenged physically.
 People that think that physical challenges are just physical, it's just brute grunt work,
 it's not.
 It's emotional intelligence.
 It's understanding your desire to quit and conquering your inner bitch.
 All that stuff is mental.
 It's playing out inside your head.
 There's a mental strength that you acquire from that that you can apply to intellectual
 pursuits.
 The people that don't think that are the people that haven't attempted them.
 There's an arrogance to people that only pursue intellectual exercises, only pursue intellectual
 things, and don't pursue anything physical.
 The physical stuff is base, it's grunt work, it's primal, it's not necessary.
 I don't think that's accurate.
 Obviously there's people like Stephen Hawking who have no opportunity to do anything physical.
 His physical dilemma is keeping us, or was, keeping us heart beating.
 For most people, I think you can really benefit from physical struggle.
 You benefit from it in a mental way.
 I think that is overlooked.
 It's unfortunately overlooked by academics and intellectuals who make excuses for why
 they're fat and lazy or scrawny.
 They don't need to be.
 It's not even about the fat or all of that.
 It's like literally there's something about the physical challenge that's really good
 for you, especially if you're academic, especially if you do intellectual types though.
 There's this great roboticist at MIT, Russ Tedrick.
 He runs barefoot to and from MIT every day.
 I love it.
 Like seven to 10 miles each way.
 Barefoot.
 Barefoot.
 He studies legged locomotion, legged robots.
 For him it's also interesting how the human body moves.
 He sees the beauty in all movement.
 What do his feet look like?
 You know, calloused.
 Destroyed, right?
 No, just calloused.
 They're nice.
 They form a nice... It's not like I gave him a foot massage.
 I mean they look... And I don't have a foot fetish so I'm not able to correctly evaluate
 another man's feet.
 I apologize for this.
 But they don't look fucked up.
 Does he run on concrete?
 Yeah.
 He runs all surfaces.
 And he does everything completely barefoot?
 The running part at work.
 So one of the things he has to do is fit into society, which means he has to change clothes
 and appear normal.
 Right.
 Does he wear like zero shoes?
 You know those barefoot type shoes?
 No, because that's like very hippie, wokey type of thing.
 No, like he doesn't... He's barefoot when he's running and then he wears like normal
 looking stuff.
 Like dress shoes.
 How did he work his way up to running barefoot?
 So he was significantly overweight.
 And his advisor, this other famous person at MIT who was a roboticist, took his own
 life and that made him... That made Russ face his own mortality, I think.
 You start to ask big questions about your wellbeing, like, holy shit, this wreck can
 end at any moment.
 And so he started taking his sort of physical wellbeing seriously.
 But as a result of that, not that he become like shredded, but he's also discovered the
 intellectual value, the humbling value of physical exercise.
 He's not preachy about it all.
 I actually rarely hear him advise it to anyone.
 He just does it as a... Almost like meditation or something like that.
 It's definitely a form of meditation and you can attest to that, right?
 You do quite a bit of running.
 There's a thing about it.
 You kind of... Almost like a mantra gets formed and you get into it.
 You know what's great here in the Austin heat?
 100 degree weather.
 That tests you.
 You know what I love to do outside?
 Pull sleds.
 That's my thing.
 I love to pull sleds outside.
 In the heat.
 Yeah, I did it today.
 Yeah, I love it.
 So you're also... Your wife is incredible.
 You're in a relationship.
 You're married.
 You have a great family.
 What advice would you give to me and to others like me who are dumb fucks and have not found
 a relationship?
 Well, you're a great guy.
 This definitely doesn't necessarily apply to you, but be someone who someone would want
 to be in a relationship with.
 There's a lot of people out there that want a great partner.
 They want someone in a relationship, but why would someone want to be in a relationship
 with you?
 Maybe you bicker a lot.
 Maybe you're jealous.
 Maybe you lie.
 Maybe you're cruel.
 Maybe you don't have a sense of humor.
 Maybe you're not kind.
 What is it about you that people would not enjoy being around or that people avoid?
 Fix that.
 Fix that.
 Well, this applies to me as well.
 You said something with Cam Haines.
 One of the things you admire is the discipline it takes to juggle so many things and do it
 successfully.
 I'm not sure I'm very good at that.
 So juggling all this hard work and then also a relationship.
 Also relationship, also family, all these kinds of priorities.
 I mean, that requires having your shit together.
 It does.
 It's a different thing, but it's also you got to find the right person.
 There's a lot of people who settle for sexy.
 They settle for hot.
 They settle for the wrong person.
 You can get hot and nice.
 They're out there, but don't get hot and mean.
 Hot and mean is not fun.
 Then you get Amber Heard.
 And then you end up getting dry.
 You can be deceived by perfect symmetry.
 You don't think it's a good idea to record your partner?
 I think you should record all conversations.
 The CIA is doing it no matter what.
 I assume that every conversation I have is recorded because I'm pretty sure it is.
 Even when we had dinner with Alex Jones, he was recording.
 I still remember that.
 I didn't know that was recording.
 You know what would be funny if he is the CIA player?
 He could be.
 He could be.
 But that's my advice about relationships is be somebody and then also find someone who
 you can grow with.
 You don't want to be with someone who doesn't share your value.
 You don't want to be with someone who makes excuses.
 You don't want to be with someone who's lazy or who's spiteful.
 You want to be with someone who's genuinely kind.
 That's one of the things that I really love about my wife.
 She's very smart and she works hard.
 She's a dedicated, disciplined person, but she's also really nice.
 That's one of the things I like the most about her.
 She's so nice.
 She's always smiling.
 And that energy is great.
 Yeah.
 You've seen us together.
 You've hung around with us.
 She's fun.
 She's a lot of fun.
 Yeah.
 She makes you just feel great to be alive.
 It's good to have people like that around you.
 She's happy.
 She's a happy person.
 She's happy to be around.
 That's the kind of people that you could have in your life as friends and as coworkers and
 as lovers and wives and husbands.
 You can find those people.
 They're real.
 And when you find those people, your life is better.
 To have a good tribe is very important.
 To have a good tribe of people.
 And I think if there's anything that I'm very, very fortunate about, it's the people that
 I'm around.
 I have very good friends, and one of which is you.
 It's so valuable to have quality people around you because it makes you want to do better
 because you admire the hard work that these people put in, like Mike Kam Haines or Goggins
 or many of my friends, and people that are generous and people that are curious and people
 that are honest.
 They inspire you to do the same, and it's extremely valuable.
 It's one of the most valuable things is to surround yourself with positive, healthy,
 friendly, generous people.
 That's why I cut out Tim Dillon for my life.
 I broke up with him.
 I thought you guys were getting married.
 No, it's over.
 It's none of those things.
 The Texas nonstop, the nonstop conspiracy theories, the nonstop mocking of my Eastern
 European origins, it's just not healthy for me.
 Plus he's physically abusive and a towering figure, both emotionally and physically.
 No, no, I love him.
 If he worked out, he would be a house.
 He's got a large frame.
 If I interview Putin, what should I ask him?
 How's the cancer?
 How's it doing, buddy?
 That's question number one in Russian.
 Do you think he has cancer?
 I don't think so.
 The narrative is terrifying, right?
 Dictator of the largest nuclear arsenal in the world who also has cancer and he just
 invaded a sovereign country.
 That's a terrifying narrative because that's what we're all afraid of.
 Someone who has nothing to lose who just decides to let loose the nuke.
 Well, I do think maybe it's projecting, but if I had cancer or if you think about leaders
 that have cancer, you're facing your own mortality, I would think he'll be more focused on his
 legacy and dropping nuclear bomb is not good for legacy.
 I do believe he wants to be remembered as a great leader, as a lot of leaders do, as
 a lot of even dictators do.
 I think he wants to figure out a way to pull out a win so he can say that whatever this
 invasion was, was good for Russia, was good for the nation.
 He ultimately made it a greater nation than it was before.
 Perhaps he could justify an escalation of war to be that.
 It's just the cancer thing concerns me so much because it's been so often part of this
 propaganda that's been told about Putin, he's sick.
 I don't know why.
 People wonder that a lot about, especially dictators, but you had that even with Hillary
 Clinton and obviously with Biden, that narrative is stickier.
 For some people, it's stickier.
 Well, that narrative is transparent and obvious.
 The degree of it is a question with Biden as it is with everyone.
 How healthy is this leader?
 That's a question people often ask.
 Sure, always.
 They were doing that about Trump too.
 The thing about Putin though is his appearance is altered where he looks very bloated.
 His body doesn't look much bigger, but his face looks puffy and swollen.
 I had a friend who had sarcoidosis and they prescribed prednisone, which is a type of
 a steroid.
 One of the things that would happen when he was on it is his face would get really big.
 It was like he would blow up, swell up, maintain a lot of water and inflammation.
 That's what it looks like when I'm looking at Putin.
 Actually, if you're sitting with him, one question is about health.
 Has Biden been asked that kind of question?
 Without mockery, without any of that-
 He would have to go on Fox News.
 The mainstream media treats him with kid gloves in a way that I've never seen.
 It's so obvious.
 There's something horribly wrong with his cognitive function.
 To push back, I don't know if it's horribly wrong.
 You don't think it's horribly wrong?
 I think there's uncertainty to which degree it's wrong.
 I would love there to be a serious conversation with him.
 In fact, I actually have to now look.
 Of course, Fox News will mock his declining mental health.
 I would love an objective discussion.
 Are you aware of this?
 What are you putting in place?
 Are you yourself?
 If I was a person with declining mental abilities, you have to start thinking about that kind
 of stuff.
 Who is around you?
 Who are the advisors?
 What if you start being able to see the world clearly?
 I would be transparent about that kind of stuff.
 Well, you would be, but you also would never be a politician because you're too fucking
 honest.
 Well, yeah, but actually from a conversation perspective, it would be nice if that kind
 of discussion was had.
 It would be.
 All jokes aside, with Putin, I would ask questions about democracy versus what they have.
 Without any disparaging descriptions of what is going on over in Russia, it's clearly not
 a democracy.
 It's the way he has it set up.
 The elections are a joke.
 He would push back that it's not clearly not a democracy.
 He is still very popular.
 Majority of people are huge supporters of Putin inside Russia.
 The people that push back against that would say that that's because any serious opposition
 is pushed out of the country.
 Yeah, and arrested and murdered.
 Yeah, but yes, that's a really, really good question.
 The value of dictatorships.
 One of the things about the United States that's fascinating to me is that every four
 years, unless it's four to eight years, right?
 Someone does two terms, but every four years there's an opportunity for someone to be new
 and completely inexperienced at the most difficult job in the world, which is ridiculous.
 The interesting thing is it actually makes sense after eight years, you've gained the
 wisdom.
 You would actually be a pretty good leader to keep going.
 But there is some problem where the power gets started getting to your head.
 From Putin's perspective, I think he genuinely wants the best for Russia.
 I don't think he's lost his mind in terms of it's all about greed and so on.
 Same as Stalin.
 I think Stalin, until the end of his days, wanted the best for the Soviet Union.
 It's not like you become...
 Hitler, I think, lost his mind during the war, where it was like he wasn't seen clearly
 at all.
 What Putin believes is that he is actually the best person to bring out the best for
 his country.
 Now, the problem is maybe refreshing the leader is in fact, in the long term, the best thing,
 versus every leader believes they know what's best for the country.
 The whole point is to keep refreshing it.
 That's the case for democracy.
 That's the case for the system we have that creates natural, maybe emergent balance of
 power.
 I think it makes it evident that there is no clear cut, real right way to do it.
 If you had the perfect person in, having them for 12, 20 years would be amazing.
 If you had a perfect, benevolent leader who clearly only cared about the people, was doing
 their best and striving hard and got great satisfaction knowing that he is a dedicated
 civil servant that only wants to lead the country in a way that's going to benefit the
 most people in the most profound way.
 But we have a dirty political system.
 It's completely corrupted by money, completely corrupted by influence.
 The fact that the lobbyists, there's an area outside of Washington, DC.
 It's one of the richest areas in the country and it's where the lobbyists live.
 There's so much money involved in being a lobbyist.
 There's so much money involved in special interest groups and how much of an impact
 they have on who gets elected and what decisions get made once that person gets elected.
 We know this.
 We know it's not for the people, by the people.
 It's just not what it is.
 I mean, this country is an experiment in self-government and if we could do it all over again, I would
 say the most important thing is to have laws in place to keep money out of politics and
 to make it a heinous crime for someone to influence laws and policy based entirely on
 the amount of profit it could generate for a party or for a company that is investing
 in a candidate.
 That's fucking incredibly dangerous and it's corrupt and that corruption has been accepted.
 We've just accepted that this corruption exists.
 Last question.
 If Putin asks to see this watch, what do I tell him?
 Would you give it, should I let him see it?
 Because we know what happens with the Super Bowl ring.
 I think a Super Bowl ring is unique.
 He could buy a watch like that pretty easy.
 But this particular isn't that a power move?
 Yeah.
 This is the watch you gave me.
 There's a story.
 I would probably share it with him.
 The story.
 And then maybe you go, look, can I see this watch?
 And then he puts it on and says, thank you.
 Do you say no?
 You go like this.
 Yeah, there it is, bro.
 You don't take it off?
 There's so many words I'm going to have to find translations, buddy, bro.
 I guess bro is brother.
 I mean, if he takes your watch, I'll buy you another one.
 If Putin steals it.
 Keep him going.
 I'll just give you the same exact watch.
 Well, first of all, thank you for this.
 My pleasure, bro.
 I really wanted to talk to you because in a couple of days, I'm leaving to Ukraine and
 Russia and I hope I'll be back in one piece and drink whiskey with you once again.
 Yeah, I hope so too.
 I'm nervous about you going over there.
 I know journalists have been killed now.
 But they don't know Jiu Jitsu.
 No, I think you'll be okay.
 And I think there's certain things you do in life that just kind of your heart pulls
 towards that so much.
 What's your objective over there?
 I'm not somebody who thinks about objectives clearly.
 It's just something about me says I need to go there.
 But to put in loose words is to try to understand what that world is now.
 So I remember what it was years ago when I was there.
 I know my family.
 I know the generations of family that was there on that land in Ukraine and in Russia.
 And the soul of the people, the love that's there, the beauty of the culture.
 And I want to see what it is today and what this war has created, both the anger and the
 love and the people and just hear them out and just talk to them.
 No recordings, none of that.
 Maybe a little here and there, but mostly just for me and to see.
 I don't know.
 Sometimes it's just something pulls you to a place.
 And I also, because I'm able to speak Russian and some Ukrainian, I do want to try to have
 these, a couple of the political leaders involved, talk to them.
 And I have all the right connections.
 Everybody has said yes.
 Of course, you don't know the likelihood it finally happens, but I want to at least
 have that possibility there.
 Sometimes you have to go to a place to really understand it.
 You can't just read about it.
 You can't just talk to the people that are living there.
 You have to be there.
 And I've never been in a war zone.
 I've never been in a land that's been damaged and wiped by the weapons of war.
 And I just want to feel that because so much of that land is, I remember when everything
 was flourishing.
 Yes, corruption, all those kinds of things, but people were there and the culture was
 flourishing and people were happy.
 There was lots of struggle, but they were happy.
 And now people are extremely angry.
 There's hate in the air on all sides.
 I want to see that.
 I want to understand.
 Sometimes it just pulls you and you have to go.
 So it doesn't make any sense perhaps, but you just got to do it.
 What's the timeline of when I'm going?
 How long?
 No, one way.
 I don't have a plan.
 Wow.
 Yeah.
 So I'm hoping back in a month.
 But also not just to clarify, I'm not somebody who seeks risk.
 And like you're somebody who seems to be terrified of bears and sharks.
 So you don't like, so why go swim out?
 Why go surfing?
 Why go swim out in the ocean?
 So I'm somebody that's the same probably with sharks too.
 I'm not taking unnecessary risk, but certain things that just mean a lot to you, you take
 the risk.
 So a little bit of risk willing to take to discover something about myself, honestly,
 it's probably what it all boils down to, try to understand myself.
 Because so much of me is from that place.
 This is the beautiful thing about America is it's like stitches together all these different
 cultures.
 Everybody came from somewhere else.
 Yeah.
 And you try to understand in order for me to be a good American, I need to understand
 who I was, where I came from.
 And that's nothing reveals the spirit of a people better than war.
 It's like, there's something about this conflict that's really cuts all the bullshit.
 This is who we are.
 This is who we are as a people.
 So I want to see it.
 I want to understand.
 And like I said, when I come back, drink some whiskey with you.
 All right.
 I hope that happens.
 I really do.
 And I hope you're safe over there and I hope you come back with whatever insight you're
 trying to achieve.
 Thank you for doing this conversation.
 My pleasure, brother.
 Thank you for everything you've done for me, for the support, for the love and everybody
 around you.
 Thank you for everything you're doing for everybody around you for giving back, but
 for just giving and being kind to everybody.
 I love you, brother.
 I love you too.
 Thank you.
 Thanks for listening to this conversation with Joe Rogan.
 To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description.
 And now let me leave you with one of Joe's and one of my favorite quotes from Miyamoto
 Musashi.
 Once you know the way broadly, you'll see it in everything.
 Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.