Jason Calacanis: Startups, Angel Investing, Capitalism, and Friendship | Lex Fridman Podcast #161
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Jason Calacanis is an angel investor, entrepreneur, and co-host of All-In Podcast and This Week in Startups. Please support this podcast by checking out our sponsors:
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EPISODE LINKS:
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OUTLINE:
0:00 - Introduction
1:51 - WallStreetBets and Robinhood
12:58 - How does the WallStreetBets saga end?
16:09 - Capitalism
21:30 - Ideas vs Execution
22:37 - Learning to learn
28:05 - Risk-aversion
34:06 - Robinhood
42:33 - Parler and AWS
44:58 - Social networks
51:32 - Leadership
56:21 - Work-life balance
1:04:43 - Great leaders lead by example
1:12:29 - Advice for startup founders
1:16:56 - Clubhouse
1:17:42 - When will we fully re-open the economy
1:28:19 - Augmented reality
1:31:47 - When should a startup raise money?
1:38:43 - David Goggins
1:40:40 - Disagreement with Chamath Palihapitiya
1:53:52 - Story about Elon Musk's darkest moments
2:02:07 - Friendship

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 The following is a conversation with Jason Kalakannis, who's an entrepreneur, investor, author of Angel, How to Invest in Technology Startups, and as many people may know, he's a fun, brilliant, long-time podcast host of This Week in Startups, and co-host of the All In podcast with Chamath Palahapitiya, David Sachs, and David Friedberg, who all happen to be poker buddies and self-proclaimed besties. The result is always a great listen due to both the love and the heated disagreements. Quick mention of our sponsors, Brave Browser, Linode Linux Virtual Machines, Four Sigmatic Mushroom Coffee, and Rev Speech-to-Text Service. Click the sponsor links to get a discount and to support this podcast. As a side note, let me say that I've been learning a lot about real-world finance in the past few months. To give you a bit of context, on the side, I've studied trading from an algorithmic trading perspective as a machine learning and a game theory problem off and on for a few years in undergrad and grad school. I found the distributed, complex system aspect of finance and economics in general fascinating. But now, I find even more fascinating the human side of the whole thing, ideas of greed, power, freedom, and truth. Wall Street Bets, Robin Hood, and the whole beautiful mess around this topic allows us to have great conversations about human nature and the systems that underlie the rise and fall of civilizations. If you enjoy this thing, subscribe on YouTube, review it on Apple Podcasts, follow on Spotify, support it on Patreon, connect with me on Twitter at Lex Friedman. And now, here's my conversation with Jason Koulakiannis. I have a million things to talk to you about, but we do happen to be living through what I would think of as a historic event in terms of its impact, in terms of almost philosophically thinking about the role of people and how they can fight power with this whole Wall Street Bets and GameStop situation. I was wondering, you've covered in your amazing All In podcast, you guys have been having fascinating battles over this whole situation. I was wondering if you could tell maybe from your perspective, as it's unrolling, the saga of Wall Street Bets and GameStop, what are some interesting insights that you have about this whole set of events? In full disclosure, I was an angel investor in Robin Hood before they launched. And when I met the founder, Vlad, and his partner, they pitched me at a bar, not too far from where we are right now, in Palo Alto called Antonio's Nuthouse. And my friend, Deo, it's a really good story, my friend Deo had asked me to speak at his founder's institute, which is kind of like an accelerator for people who are thinking about starting a company. And so I gave a talk and then he said, hey, let's go to Antonio's Nuthouse and we'll meet Elon for a drink. And so Elon met us for a drink there. And it's the divest of dive bars. Like you'll take a beer. I love the image of all of this. You hang out with Elon at a crappy bar. Yeah, I mean, it is the worst bar in the peninsula. Like just garbage on the floor and like cheap beer and warm beer. And like you'll pick up your pine glass and be lipstick on it. It's brutal. Classy. Not your lipstick, you understand, somebody else's lipstick. And so we're sitting there and Vlad walks up with his partner and he says, you're Jason Calacanis. And I said, tell me about your startup. He said, how do you know I have a startup? I said, you recognize me. And I mean, that's the only way. And he goes, is that Elon Musk? And I said, yes, Elon, come say hi. And he came over and said hi. I said, tell me what you do. He said, well, I'm a quant. I said, what's that? And he said, quantitative analysis. And I was like, oh yeah, yeah, I know about that. That's like you guys make algorithms and then try to beat the market, right? He's like, yeah. I was like, so you're gonna pitch me on a startup and you're gonna sell your algorithm to other people. And if it was so good, why wouldn't you just use it yourself and print money? He's like, yeah, yeah, no, no, that's not our business. Our business is we're gonna create an app to get millennials to trade stocks. And he said, hmm, you do realize there's no retail investors anymore. Like the dot-com crash plus the 2008 financial crisis eliminated any individual's belief in participating in the stock market. And he said, that's the opportunity. I said, okay, I like it. Tell me more. He said, well, we're gonna get these millennials to trade. I said, the same ones who live in their mom's basements and take Uber and Lyft and are on their parents have no money, got screwed and went 250K into debt for school and now can't get a job. Those people? And he's like, yeah. I'm like, okay, they have no interest in their future, but they're gonna trade stocks. He said, yeah, that's the opportunity. I was like, how are you gonna make money? And he said, well, that's the best part. It's gonna be free. And I said, so your idea is to get a group of people who have no interest in saving for their future to trade and your business model is free. And he said, yes. I said, I'm in. Because in almost all cases, the crazy outlandish ideas that nobody believes in are the ones that have the greatest returns. I mean, Uber, I introduced to about 25 investors and three of us said yes. So, a full 12% of the community who saw that deal decided to do it. So your sense about this idea being good had to do with the fact that this guy was just crazy and ambitious and bold thinking, or was it that there was something here in allowing a much larger magnitude of people to be able to be investors? Yeah, the way to do really well as an angel investor or just in technology or in life is to not say what could go wrong, but to say what could go right. And then to just imagine for a moment, if it does work, what would the world look like? And so when Elon was investing in Tesla and some other guys were running it and he was trying to save the company, you know, it wasn't, is this gonna work? It was almost positively not gonna work. It was, and he knew that. But if it does work, what does the world look like? And so that's really what you're looking for is not the chances of success, but if it does succeed, what would that look like? And you, that's what the world needs more people doing. And so when you looked at Robinhood, it was like, well, if he does succeed, what would the world look like? And now we've seen what it looks like. You have a generation who are so financially sophisticated that they know how to do puts and calls and shorts and research at a level that dominated the hedge fund industry. So let's pause for a second. These traders sitting there on a subreddit in a Discord server are able to do analysis and research and then act in unison to say, we're going to beat in the Robinhood sense, you know, this group of sophisticated insiders who have more access and more access to capital, but we will figure out how to solve this problem. And, you know, things, most things don't work. It's like the Wikipedia, like, there's no way the Wikipedia would ever work. Right. Except it did. Yeah. Right? Like you're like, how is this ever gonna work? You're not paying anybody, but it's built the largest corpus of an encyclopedia ever. So I think Robinhood actually succeeded. And then what we saw was this system and a lot of the systems in our society, whether it's the political system, the constitution of the United States, education, higher education, which you're involved in, and then even the financial system, we have not stress tested and stress tested it. And we don't actually know all the edge cases and how it works. So Trump was able to just really put this crazy stress test. Like, is the democracy going to hold? Are we gonna break this 200-some-a-year-old experiment? And then we looked at the financial markets and it turns out there were more people shorting the stock than shares were available. I don't know how that's possible. And then I'm trying to uncover, where can I see a list of people who've shorted the stock? And it's like, you can't, but we can tell you sort of how many every two weeks or maybe twice a week we can create a report. Maybe we know. I was surprised that nobody knows the list of people who were shorted and you guys were trying to figure that out. Yeah, there's no transparency on a lot of the systems. And if you call to try to short a stock, it's almost like they'll tell you on the phone, let me see, I think I might know a guy who has shares to loan out. So it's like, am I calling to try to find a 73 Mustang Grande in gold? You're gonna call around. It's like, shouldn't this be on a ledger somewhere and be completely transparent? So now we're seeing those things. And I think the investigations will make it super clear. But of course, in a vacuum without information, there are so many investors in these startups that conflicts can start to appear. And then you know how it is with people in conspiracy theories, the mind starts to wander. And so in some cases, there is actually a conspiracy. And then in other cases, people's mind will fill in like, oh my God, there's some grand conspiracy here. I can tell you Robin Hood's only goal is to get more people to trade stocks and to democratize it even more. And they apparently were on the brink of seizing as an entity if they didn't get more money to cover all these trades. I mean, they were on the brink and they raised three and a half billion dollars or something like that in a week. Yeah, so in some sense, Robin Hood enabled this very like the magic of this distributed system of Wall Street bets, right? You said Wikipedia, which is another, which is probably one of my favorite websites and one of my favorite examples of like a distributed system somehow coming together in a way, just like you said at that crappy bar, I would have guessed it would never work. But if it does work, it changes everything and it did. And Robin Hood in that same way, probably enabled or was one of the major enablers of Wall Street bets of giving power, like empowering young kids to learn about how this whole messy financial system works and take on the big elite centralized players. Yes, and you know, it's very easy. When these companies get big, one thing that's changed is the footprint of these startups and the velocity at which they grow. So something like Airbnb is another perfect example of something that should really not work in practice, but it does. Like I'm gonna rent my couch or my extra room to somebody like a serial killer, or I'm gonna stay in somebody's house like a serial killer's house. And you know, it's like, it really sounds scary, but it actually works. And it has not destroyed the hotel business, it has added. So the best startups induce a market to exist. If you look at, you know, Uber or Airbnb, people replaced their cars and Uber was not competing ultimately with taxis. They were competing with car ownership, public transportation, walking, or just not going out. And then you look at Airbnb, a lot of people who stay in an Airbnb would not be taking a trip to Kyoto, if not for the fact that they could get a $75 beautiful room with great view. Beautiful room with great reviews in Kyoto for three weeks. It inspires people and it manifests the market because the product is so transcendent, right? And I think that's one of the things that Robinhood did. You can't learn how to do this options trading and puts and calls and all this sophistication stuff, unless you actually do it. It's just too hard to learn except in practice, just like poker. If you wanna learn how to play poker or guitar or tennis or skiing, like you can talk about it, you can watch YouTube videos, but at a certain point, you gotta get on the mountain. At a certain point, you gotta put some chips in the pot and it's gonna be painful. Like poker is gonna be painful. You're gonna lose a lot of money. That's why you should play at the small tables first. And even in trading, like you look at people who are doing this crazy trading in GameStop, a company that's worth maybe a couple of billion dollars, but certainly about tens of billions of dollars. Of course, the people who are throwing their money in last are gonna lose it. I think everybody knew that. And so it was a momentum play and they're betting against the hedge funds. So I think it's good for people to learn and become financially literate and just always understand the concept of the risk of ruin. The good news is for a young person, the risk of ruin might be like they lose $5,000 or something and then they have to build their stack back up. But that's really the only thing I am concerned about is there are people who will play poker or blackjack or sports betting or whatever it is and lose control. Just like there might be people who try alcohol and lose control. But we can't build a system based upon limiting the average person's behavior based upon somebody who can't control their ability to drink two glasses of wine instead of 20. How does this whole thing end? Probably in tears. For who? Yeah. Who's crying? Is everybody crying? Exactly. Who's crying when? So I think there were some of the hedge funds that were crying initially. That may be some of the Wall Street Bets people who bought last would be crying. And then eventually there's probably another set of hedge funds or even the Wall Street Bets mob and that army, some of them might've broke ranks and then shorted the stock. So nobody knows. So everybody has to be aware of what's happening in the game. So if Wall Street Bets said, hey, let's squeeze these hedge funds because they have too much short interest. Let's all buy the stock. Then some of them might've said, okay, it's at two or $300. Maybe I'll join the short movement now that they've covered. And they could have shorted their in like double agents. So people have to understand like this stuff is gnarly and it's a free for all. I mean, it is a literal free for all. There's a kind of morality, like a big statement that Wall Street Bets made in terms of like the elites can't just push us around. They can't bully around. But at the same time, they're also interested in making money, right? Yeah. Is what's your sense? You said that some of the people in the Wall Street Bets might've broken off and shorted the stock. Sure. Are they more interested? There was an emergent like morality that emerged and said like, we're not gonna put up with the centralized elites, but is that going to continue? Are they going to fight the power structures that are bad for society? Are they going to now like, I mean, are they ultimately going to introduce more chaos that's going to damage the economy and damage the world? Or are they going to continue being the good guys and fighting the evils that manipulate the market? What's your sense? You know, it really feels like the Dark Knight series of films where like some people just wanna see the world burn. Yeah. I think there is a contingent of people who just literally want to see chaos. Yeah. Like, you know that contingent on some of these forums who just wanna create chaos, right? So there's certainly that chaos contingent, but I think overall what the arc will show is a group of people getting massively educated. You see it in crypto as well. There was like a three-year period where all of these failed entrepreneurs who I knew who couldn't build companies were then coming back to me after their companies has failed or after they gave up or couldn't clear market raising money with the venture capital community, and they were doing ICOs. And I was like, I met you before, right? And they're like, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I'm doing an ICO now. I'm like, okay, where's your company at? And they're like, here's a white paper. And I was like, this white paper with spelling errors in it that says you're going to destroy Airbnb because everybody's apartment's gonna be on an immutable ledger. Like, wouldn't that be better in a regular database that was private and not public? Like, why does it need to be on an immutable ledger? It can't change. I'm like, not changing the database is a feature? That does not seem like a good feature. And they couldn't explain it. They were like, well, just people are interested in ICOs. And there was that ICO mania. And what it showed was there was a global appetite for risk. People want to try new things. This is one of the great things about the human spirit. It is one of the great things about capitalism. And one of the things that concerns me most about where we're at in society is the sort of socialism, communism, entrepreneurship is bad, technology is bad, and polarization of wealth, and people getting rich is a bad thing. When I grew up, I'm 50 now. But when I was a Gen Xer growing up, we kind of maybe too much idolized Bill Gates and people who were doing interesting things in the world. And we thought capitalism was a force for good. I still believe capitalism is a force for good because when a group of people build a product or service that changes the world and it gets globally distributed, whether it's Tesla or SpaceX or Google or Airbnb or Uber or Robinhood, everybody gets to benefit from that product or service having to compete. And if you look at the places where there's no competition like public education or less established colleges and stuff like that, less competition for accreditation degrees, things tend to get a little weird, don't they? And people tend to be protected and that's not good. You need competition. Does it mean that people shouldn't have global healthcare? It doesn't mean that we shouldn't have a safety net, but we need to keep capitalism vibrant, especially because China has now co-opted capitalism and created their own version of capitalism, which is communism with capitalism. It's like this weird operating system. We still wanna keep communism so we can take any of your gains at any time, but we'd like you to be entrepreneurial. And then you have somebody like the founder of Alibaba, Jack Ma, who disappears for a couple of weeks. Who's that? No, I'm just kidding. Exactly, it's like, who's Jack Ma? I was like, he kind of disappears for a couple of weeks and then he comes back and he's really sorry about the things he said and then he disappears again. We have to be very careful. If China wins capitalism, this is gonna be an existential threat for humanity. The Chinese are no joke. I mean, they are seriously focused and they are picking the winners. It's a very weird system because it is in fact, I don't know what you call it. Like communism and capitalism is such overloaded terms, but they do encourage entrepreneurship, but they, and they do a good job of it. Oh yes. And then they're like the surveillance thing and they're controlling things in a way. It's weird because it seems to work really well for them in the short term. Yes, it's definitely got short term benefits. So the question is like, how that gets distorted and becomes worse and worse, which it potentially might be. And I think on the entrepreneurial spirit, which you have a podcast all centered around the entrepreneurial spirit, is one of the magical things that makes this country great. I don't know if money is deeply tied into that. I do get bothered by people treating the word billionaires if it's a bad word. But in general, like all the hard things, all the difficult things we're going through in this country, it seems like the way out is going to be making the entrepreneur the hero of society, of letting that young kid with a big dream and the guts to take the big risks and build something totally new, giving them a chance and whatever that involves. I don't think it's about taxes. I don't think it's about regulation, all that stuff. It's about us and just public discourse saying that kid, that guy, that girl, they're bad asses, like encourage them to do it. We have to have people buy in to the fact that they have that opportunity. And I think one of the problems in society is there's a group of people who actually don't believe that they can succeed or they don't believe even more perniciously that other people can. And that's the group of people that I think are highly vocal but a small group of people, which are generally people of incredible privilege, rich parents, white, city dwellers, liberals. They kind of look and say, poor people cannot change it a lot. And they're battling in their minds to protect poor people. But they have this very weird patriarchal kind of approach to it, which is they think that they're not capable of changing their lot in life. And they're like, it's not possible. And then once in a while, I'll tweet something where I say, it's really incredible that every piece of knowledge you could possibly want is now available for free on YouTube. And every course from MIT and Harvard and Stanford is available on edX or Coursera. And all that information is there freely available. And you can take the lectures. This is amazing. And then people will be like, yeah, but people don't have access to it. I'm like, they do, it's free. Here's the link. And they're like, yeah, but they don't have internet. And I'm like, here's the chart of internet penetration in America. And they're like, well, poor people don't have internet. And I'm like, really? Find me any downtrodden person without a smartphone with a high-speed connection that capitalism provided for $12 a month or $15 a month. It's very hard to find that. And we have it so well in this country, and there's so much opportunity. But people don't believe it. And that's actually one of the problems. See, the average American still watches four or five hours of television a day. And often I meet people and they're like, I need a technical co-founder. And I, you know, but all I need is a million dollars. And I'm like, okay, well, what is your skill? And they don't have a skill. And I'm like, well, are you a designer? No, are you a product designer? Are you a product manager? No, are you a developer? No, are you a sales executive? No, okay, what are you? It's like, well, I have an idea. Well, as my friend, Sam Harris, I think your friend as well, says like, everybody has like a million ideas an hour. Like, you don't really get credit for those. Even when you're asleep, your idea is spewing ideas. Like zero credit for your ideas. It's all about execution. You have to believe that you yourself can be the core of that execution. You yourself can build the thing in every, no matter what your circumstances are. I mean, we could talk about like structural racism and all those kinds of things that push things down. But from the individual perspective, when you just like are coaching or giving advice to an individual, you can literally change the world. I mean, Wall Street Bets is an indication of that in the financial space that you yourself can have, can change the world. That's why this country is amazing. Still the best country in the world, right? I mean, it still is amazing the opportunity provided to people, all this educational experiences online. And the ability, what I tell young people who are looking for advice, I say, the skill you need to refine is the ability to learn new skills. Like if you become good at learning a new skill, and Tim Ferriss, a friend of mine, has really pioneered this. Like he can get to 60 or 70% of like the knowledge in a skill in some incredibly short period of time. Now I'm not saying he's gonna become a virtuoso drummer or a great basketball player, but Tim and I were on vacation together and like a group vacation in Italy and there was a basketball court. And I said, let's go shoot some hoops. I'd never shot before. And I was like, okay, come on, I'll teach you. And Tim is fabulously uncoordinated. People don't know this. Like he tried to dribble a basketball and do a layup and it looked like he had a blindfold on. I mean, you've never seen something less elegant than Tim Ferriss doing a layup in basketball. And then he watched me do it three or four times and I watched him study me. And listen, I've been playing basketball in Brooklyn, since I was a kid. I got a couple of moves and he was just taking notes and taking notes and taking notes. And by the end of a couple of hours of doing this, I could just watch him checking his form and figuring it out. That's every skill in the world now. And what I tell people is like, I'm like, did you watch Game of Thrones? And they're like, yeah. Watch Breaking Bad? Like, yeah, I'm like, okay, that's about 400 hours. How about you don't watch the next two and you put that 400 hours into learning how to be a graphic designer, a UX person, a developer, whatever it is, and learn how to add skills. That's what I did my whole life. I was a kid from Brooklyn, went to school at night, but I was very quick to get to maybe 50% of the knowledge base of graphic design or being a writer or being a sales executive, whatever it was, a developer even. And I was just good enough to not have people be able to bullshit me like when I hired them. And that was a big unlock. When you know enough that people can't snow you, that's a really good one. And look at yourself. You figured out how to set up an entire podcast. People don't know this, but you don't have a team around you. I have a team of like five, six people working on my podcast. But see, even knowing enough about to set this up, you would then be able to hire a team. Correct. And you'll be able to call them on their bullshit if they're not doing a good job. And that's really important. And I don't know that much about this whole thing, but I know enough to be able to then see who knows their stuff or not. You're absolutely right. And the process of learning how to learn is essential there because I did martial arts, jiu-jitsu and so on. And it's so funny to watch. I did take one, yeah. You took one, that was awesome. It's funny that there's some people that do an activity for years, because to sort of elaborate on something you were saying about hours, it's not always the amount of hours, it's the quality that you put in. Deliberate practice versus just doing some behavior. I mean, literally I've been playing chess and trying to get that going again after watching Queen's Gambit and I got chess.com. And I realized I was just playing and I'm not getting better. And then I was like, oh wait, there's a little analysis feature here in chess.com where we'll show you your blunders and mistakes. And I'm like, oh, I'm spending no time reviewing my losses in chess and I just wanna play the next game. I should really review these losses and figure out what mistakes I made. And when I started doing that, I was like, oh, I'm getting better. So some deliberate practice really works. And if you wanna take it all the way, Magnus Carlsen, shout out to the guy, he has an app, but there's a few other coaching apps where you like focus on the end game. You focus drilling a particular, you basically don't play the game at all. You just focus on drilling the different aspects. The openings, the end game, the game, yeah. And there's different kinds of puzzles. So you can really make it into a deliberate practice. Not to make this episode sponsored by chess.com, but they literally have puzzles. So I was like, oh, and it's $100 a year for this product. And I just thought to myself, this is capitalism. They don't need to charge you $100 an hour for a lesson. They can charge you $100 and they've created the ability for you to play chess 24 hours a day against opponents who are perfectly matched against you based on your rating. And they analyze every game and they have puzzles and they have tutorials and they've got everything else. It's like, just think about how much value is being provided to society because of capitalism and because competition. If you want things to get better and you wanna step up your game, just make it slightly competitive. It is one of these things in human existence that is so powerful. I don't know, did you see the Michael Jordan documentary The Last Dance? Like half of it, yeah. I'm still working through it. He's so competitive and petty. It's so inspiring that all he cares about is just winning to the level of which he literally, there's like this running meme, I took that personally. And I took that personally. I don't know if you've seen the images of him sitting, smoking a cigar, looking at like an iPad with a video clip and it's like, I took that personally. And you can make a super cut of every time he took something personally, he literally takes everything personally to give himself that competitive motivation to win. That's capitalism. And when people are competing, man, look at what Elon did to the space of cars. Like they were literally laughing at him in the first 10 years, electric cars, ha ha, that company will got a business. And now every single company is like, we're going fully electric by 2035. And he kicked their asses so brutally that they had no choice, but then to step up their game. And that's what we want, right? And this virus and this pandemic, I think, the great thing that will come out of this horrible experience that we've all had is psychologically, death, learning, just so many bad things occurred, the economy, people losing their jobs. But we also got to see the human spirit with these mRNA vaccines and just how, if we took out some of the regulation and people were super motivated, we might actually be able to eliminate all pandemics from ever happening again. And before that, Bill Gates was banging his fist and Jeff Skoll was doing the movie Contagion. I mean, for two decades, people have been banging their fist. We have to be prepared for this. And everyone's like, yeah, whatever, YOLO. It's not gonna happen. And now it's happened. And people are like, we need to be able to destroy every pandemic and virus before it happens. And you're, listen, you know a lot more about science than I do, but these mRNA has been around for a while. We've just never gotten aggressive about doing it. And then you think about challenge trials. I don't know if you've been following this, but they're doing challenge trials now in the UK this month where they're introducing COVID into healthy young patients and then giving them the vaccine or, you know. And that is against all rules and regulations about, you know, do no harm. But then you think about it. We kind of celebrate people jumping out of planes and we got that one guy, Alex Honnold, who's climbing up mountains without a rope and they give him a North Star, you know, back page ad and an endorsement deal. And we celebrate that. We celebrate people surfing with sharks. We celebrate people doing deep welding. We pay them extra to go 200 feet underground and weld stuff. And people do dangerous stuff all day long, astronauts. But we won't, soldiers, firefighters, but we won't let people get paid to do a challenge trial. Yeah, we're weirdly risk averse in certain areas that completely don't make any sense. It doesn't make, and this is where the world needs it. We could have said these thousand people, young people, who we know are in all likelihood not going to have a bad outcome, but there's a possibility. There's a possibility. But it's very low. And it's certainly lower than riding a motorcycle. It's lower than riding a motorcycle. People ride motorcycles everywhere. We have ads for motorcycles. We could have just said to those thousand people, we'll give you a million dollars each to do this. Okay, there's your billion dollars. We're printing trillions of dollars of money to deal with this. If we had just done a thousand people for a million dollars each to do a challenge trial in March, April, May, when they had the mRNA vaccines ready, we could have deployed the vaccines in the summer. We would have been done with this. We would have been over by now. So we get to challenge all of that thinking. I think that's what the great pause did. It's letting everybody challenge that thinking is, why do we have that rule? Okay, yeah, we don't want to have people give up their organs for money. We obviously understand, but there's a reasonable discussion about, well, maybe there's a level of risk in a global pandemic. I mean, we fought the Nazis, right? We defeated the Nazis. That took a lot of deaths to do that, but we had to kill that evil. This is another evil which we must fight. And it's going to result in, it's already resulting in thousands of people dying a day, but we could have actually stopped it earlier if we just had a reasonable discussion. This is why podcasting is, I respect what you do. This is why intelligent people are so drawn to podcasts because you and I can expand on this and not cancel each other over this very suggestion. When I make this suggestion that, are challenge trials reasonable or not? If I were to do that on Twitter, they'd be like, oh, Calacanis wants to give poor people coronavirus in order to save rich people. It's like, no, I didn't say that. But you and I could have a reasonable discussion about are challenge trials something we should consider in a acute situation where millions of people are going to lose their lives? Right, so that's an example of capitalism competition working really well. There's one of the, to me, sad thing to see about coronavirus is that, for example, testing at scale should have, it seems obvious. I was a little clueless about it, because I thought there's no way you can have antigen tests at hundreds of millions, order hundreds of millions of them and make them cheap. But actually, I realized recently that they've been available since about May. Yeah. You were able to. In Korea, in Finland, all over the place. And you could have done mass manufacture. So there, there's a little bit of a failure of capitalism to step up. And I don't know if you agree with this, but it seems that the blame is to be placed at the regulators and the various institutions. Crony capitalism in all likelihood is what stopped it here in America. I mean, I had friends who had imported them from other countries, the testing kits. And you've probably been to parties where people had these kinds of testing kits from other countries. And we're sitting here and they're just approving them now. Really, in February, month 11 of the pandemic in America, we're gonna have testing online. Really. I mean, even if these tests were 80% effective and they're 95% effective, mass producing them, we should have sent them in every postal, anybody with a post office box should have, with a mailing address, should have had 10 of them put in their mailing address, just for free from the government. And then everybody would be testing and we would have contained it. We don't have test and trace here in the United States. Well, all the countries that are on the other side of COVID did it by having testing, tracing, and closing their borders and masks. That's the combination that works. The problem with the coronavirus is, while there's a lot of institutions did not behave their best, it's also the case that there's a lot of uncertainty. So I tend to give a little bit of a pass to everybody involved for the uncertainty. We were all- I give them that until June. I wonder how history will remember this whole period. I'd love to ask you, because you were an early investor in Robinhoods and you're in a very nice place of being a huge supporter of the Wall Street bets kind of distributed power of the people. And at the same time, because of you being an investor, intellectually giving a chance to Robinhood in this kind of chaotic time of conversations, to think about like, well, what did they do right? What did they do wrong? So you have a kind of a balanced view on the whole thing, which is really nice. We've talked about what Robinhood did right, I think. Can you sort of steel man Chamath's arguments of what Robinhood did wrong in the last few days? Yeah, I mean, communication is always the number one issue with these startups, right? And you have to get ahead of any problem and you have to put all the bad news out immediately. And in the case of Robinhood, it seems, based on what has been in the papers and what Robinhood said publicly, is that they had this kind of liquidity crisis, right? Where they were being, because of these exchanges telling them you have to put up this amount of money in collateral and them being pinned at number one in the app store. There were so many people trying to buy five shares of this stock, five shares of this meme stock, that it kind of broke their system. And then the people who clear the trades for them, they said, you gotta put up a billion dollars, two billion dollars, three billion dollars. We can't do that overnight. And I think that they were in an uncomfortable situation of like going on TV and saying, we have a liquidity crisis. Like that could be like a run on the bank. Everybody then logs in at the same time to Robinhood and tries to sell every share they own because they're afraid that the whole thing's gonna collapse, right? So I think there was this kind of like black swan event and they probably didn't communicate it all that well. At the center of that, this is really interesting. Maybe you can comment on the nature of communication. Vlad, the CEO, the guy you met at the bar, was at the, I think at the center of the communication, right? So Elon is an example of a guy who also is at the center of the communication for his particular set of companies. And that, you know, on Twitter, it seems to be a really powerful way to communicate. And there was something, this is me saying it, there was something about Vlad that sounded like he's hiding stuff, as opposed to Elon, it doesn't sound like he's hiding stuff. It could be the nature, the beat, the timing of the conversation. Same thing with Mark Zuckerberg. Mark Zuckerberg, for some reason, often sounds like he's hiding something. And then there's like Jack Dorsey, as much less so. And I don't know what that is about the CEOs that makes you trust them and not. Might be the point in time, like in terms of escape velocity. You know, there might be non-disclosures in place that we're not aware of, where they're not allowed to talk about certain relationships. I see. And that results, like in Vlad's case, and that results in you being like acting weird and nervous. Or okay. Or nervous. Yeah, it could just be the person is nervous, you know? So it's really hard to be building one of these companies and you're at scale and, you know, oh my Lord, the entire thing's coming apart and you're the most hated person for that day. You know how the rage cycle works? And the media is just so crazy when they get their hooks into something. I saw it happen with Uber. We saw it happen with Facebook. And even Tesla, you know, there were times when people did stupid things with autopilot. And it's like, okay, somebody's watching a movie and sleeping in their car, or leaving the driver's seat against all the rules of autopilot. And somehow Tesla's responsible for that. It's like, we have people who stand on top of their motorcycles and drive down the road on a motorcycle. And we don't blame Yamaha or Harley Davidson for some idiot standing on the seat of their motorcycle on a highway going 60 miles an hour. We just say, that person's an idiot. But when new technology comes out, we blame the technology, not the person operating it. And if you are going to operate, we basically vilify it and demonize it. I think that is part of it. Like when the person at, I remember Airbnb, we always thought, what if somebody trashes your apartment? And then sure enough, a bunch of meth heads rented this poor woman's apartment. She left all of her stuff in it. And then a bunch of meth heads had a drug party, destroyed her apartment, ripped up all our photos and went crazy. And we knew that day would happen, but nobody remembers it now. But it was the number one story on every news channel because wow, that's an exciting story. And I just thought to myself, I wonder if there are any parties in hotel rooms where the hotel room is being trashed and people are doing drugs and crazy things. It's like, yes, that's basically every hotel in Los Angeles right now is being destroyed by some rock band that's throwing a TV out the window. Like we expected in a hotel, we just didn't expect it in somebody's house with Airbnb. And then Airbnb created rules around, you can't rent an Airbnb for a party. And they learn. So I think there's a learning curve with these companies and they do get to scale at a level that is unprecedented. It used to take decades for a company to become an international phenomenon. Now it happens in two, three, four years. I mean, look at Clubhouse. This thing went from being a private beta six months ago to being the number one app in Germany and in Japan and here. Like just like that, boom. And it's because there's an ecosystem that has never existed, the app store. Then there's payments online. And then everybody has a supercomputer in their pocket. When we, the thing people got wrong about entrepreneurship, technology and business, over the last couple of decades was just how big the market was and then how quickly you could achieve relevancy in these markets. We thought the market was like the 60 million homes with broadband. And originally it was like maybe 10 or 20. Then it became 60 million. Then it was like, okay, well, how many hours are you at your desktop computer? Well, like probably at our computers for five hours a day, 10 hours a day at work, three hours a day on our own. And then I was like, yeah, nobody's on their desktop computer, everybody's on their mobile phone. And oh, and by the way, they have it with them. So the people with mobile phones are now using this high speed device with an app store with their credit card in it. In the early days of the internet, people were scared to put their credit card on the internet. That was considered a really dumb thing to do. If you put your credit card on the internet, you're gonna lose all your money. They're gonna hack you or whatever. And now it's just amazing to me how quickly when a company hits, how quickly it can get to a million subscribers or 10 million or a billion users, right? And there's all these networks, like social networks that allow the viral spread of a new startup, a new company, a new app to be announced. A meme express. Anything, an idea, a podcast. Single thing, a single meme could change the world. Speaking of Clubhouse, I just wanna, we're saying so many interesting things, but there was a magical moment with Vlad and Elon on Clubhouse. That was wild. Do you have thoughts about that interaction, which felt like so many aspects of this whole situation feels like totally novel, surreal, like it's defining a new era. It is, yes. Like a billionaire, the richest human on earth is interviewing the person at the center of one of the most interesting mass scale like power battles in finance ever, perhaps. And by the way, seven movies have been sold. Two weeks, just think about how fast things are moving lexically. This thing happens. Like people had the idea to short the stock six months ago. They start doing their research. They build an army. They execute the trade. The system goes down. Robinhood raises three and a half billion dollars in four days. Elon is interviewing them on Clubhouse on Sunday after the Wednesday had happened. And now here we are, it's 10 days later. Doesn't it feel like it's been 10 months? Yeah. It's been 10 days, Lex. It's been 10 days. 10 days. Plus there's like a new president, all these things that, and everyone forgot. Like what? There was an insurrection, by the way, we also have that revolution at the Capitol where a bunch of crazy people who have guns and body armor, and then a bunch of them who are just yoloing in cosplay took over the Capitol. Well, so, and the other more dramatic thing to me is- That was one month ago. That was one month and the president of the United States got banned from every major social network. And which I think I'm still deeply troubled by is Parler being removed from AWS. That changed the way, that changed a lot of things. As somebody who's an aspiring entrepreneur, that changed the way I see the world. That little, maybe I'm being over dramatic, but- No, you're not. I think you're paranoid for a reason. You're paranoid for a very good reason, which is as big as these companies can become, they are beholden to the mob. And if the mob says, hey, this person needs to be canceled, they're going to get canceled because you can't lose your entire audience. You could lose your whole customer base and you can lose all your employees. I think what's interesting about your fear about Parler and AWS taking off is we went from being like a social network, which is the software layer. And then we went to like the infrastructure layer, and they'll even go after like CloudFlare, which is a CDN provider, right? They're just like a plumbing, it's like sort of like the telephone. So we're basically holding everybody responsible on the whole chain of events here. And what that's going to do is, I'm not a huge believer in crypto, but distributed computing, where nobody in decentralized and distributed computing platforms and open standards, podcasting is an open standard, the web is an open standard, FTP was an open standard, but Twitter and Facebook are closed. And what's going to happen is we will see a group of individuals create peer to peer networks for social media, where nobody can control it. And the same for cloud computing, where there's a crypto project where everybody will, and I invested in a company that tried to do this and got sold and it didn't work out, but take your hard drive on your computer at home, you give a terabyte of your 10 terabyte drive over to the cloud. And then everybody else does their terabyte. And then all of a sudden you've got this virtual cloud and anybody can store stuff on it and it's all encrypted and then nobody can stop it. And that could be tweets, it could be videos. And so this idea that YouTube will be able to tell people, to kick people off because they're skeptics of, I don't know, the pandemic or the vaccine, or they'll make things that are more censorship resistant. I think that'll be the reaction to all of this. Well, this is my question for you, going back to that crappy bar and people pitching you. Is there, like with Clubhouse, do you see competitors, do you think it's possible that another, perhaps more decentralized or another kind of social media will emerge that will take on Twitter and Facebook and might be able to replace somebody? If you look at the whole landscape, with Clubhouse and everything else, do you think some other company might emerge? There'll be 10 versions of Clubhouse. We looked at social networking, we thought Friendster was it. Like Friendster was so good, nobody would be able to compete with that, it was growing so quickly. And then MySpace was a juggernaut and they hit a hundred million in revenue and a hundred million users. And it was like, well, that's game over. And then Facebook and LinkedIn and Snapchat and FriendFeed and countless others, you know. So there's usually 20 people who will win in a category and 80% of the category will be owned by the top two or three players. But will those players change, do you think? What's your sense of- Oh yeah, for sure. I mean, if Facebook hadn't bought Instagram, it would be a company in decline right now. People would be shorting the stock, right? Facebook peaked and then was sort of heading down and Instagram saved them and WhatsApp saved them. So, you know, that's another kind of weird moment in history that they were able to accumulate that much power and consolidate that much power. Instagram should have never sold to them. That should have gone public. They had just raised money from Sequoia and they had raised $50 million at a $500 million valuation and they didn't need to sell. And that was a big mistake to sell. They should have kept going and they should have took on Facebook and if Instagram was a standalone company right now, it'd be worth 500 million. 500 billion, yeah. Do you think Facebook might buy Clubhouse as been- They'll probably copy it. I mean, Zuckerberg has no moral compass or ethics or anything. I mean, he's a marauder. I mean, he basically copied Snapchat seven times. Like he did poke and he just kept trying and trying and trying. And part of the reason why the WhatsApp founders and the Instagram founders left is they found Zuckerberg so distasteful in terms of his ability to copy. What do you think makes a great leader in that sense? Because, okay, so when I look at Zuckerberg- He's a great executor. Is he a great executor? But I don't think he's a great leader. I was bullish on, I was excited about Facebook in the very early days. I thought it was an exciting opportunity to connect people and stuff started going wrong in certain kinds of ways. And again, maybe it's our human nature, but I attribute a lot of that to the leadership. Absolutely. I mean, the guy started it because he was unable to ask girls if they were single and on a date. I mean, that was his explicit- That could be a good motivator. That could be a good motivator. Well, I mean, it does. I mean, the motivation of 18, 19 year old men is, yeah, pretty clear. He was just trying, he had no game. He had no game and he needed to know who was single so he could at least have a shot at getting a date. It's a little creepy, a little creepy, yeah. You know, he, I think, was so obsessed with engagement and winning. And he's kind of like one of those friends you have who's just really good at playing a video game, but maybe doesn't see the bigger picture in life. And I mean, there's a reason why everybody who worked for him hates him and doesn't talk to him anymore and then actively derides him. Like so many, the people who sold WhatsApp to him then backed other projects like Telegram and said horrible things about him on the way out. These are the people he made billionaires and they really don't like him. So I think there is something that he does that does not breed loyalty, but he's very successful in his focus, which is growth is all that matters. He's a marauder and taking friction out of products and processes is the playbook of Silicon Valley for the last decade or two. So whatever the friction is. That's poetry what you're saying right now. You're speaking so fast that I almost forget that you're dropping bombs, but so removing friction, and you're saying Facebook is exceptionally good at removing friction. He was the best at it. I mean, at Uber, they were like, we're gonna take out tipping, we're gonna take out the need for you to take out your credit card and do payment. It's just gonna be in your wallet. You got picked up, you leave, that's it. And I was like, we should have tipping. And they're like, it adds a step and we're trying to have no steps. You put your address in, you click the button and you do nothing else. And so we've been obsessed here in Silicon Valley is how many clicks can we take out of the process? I guess Amazon is incredible at that as well. Absolutely, one click was the start of it. And then you look at Clubhouse as an example, you open Clubhouse and you see rooms, you click on it, you're listening. So in one click, you're listening. And then in one click, if you raise your hand or you get invited and you say yes, you're speaking. So it's two clicks to speak, one click to listen. I mean, the only way they could make that app work even faster is if you opened it up and your microphone was turned on and you, which is kind of scary, but that is the next evolution. And what happens when you go that fast is you get unintended consequences. And so this is why Facebook has had more fines than any company in the history of Silicon Valley, just giant fines for doing stuff like this. And one of them was, I don't know if you remember when they created groups or if you have a group for your podcast, but you can just add people to a group without their permission. And there was this famous case when they first came out with it, somebody created a NAMBLA fake group, National Man, Love, Boy Association, whatever, like Caterpillar Association. And they added Zuckerberg, Mike Arrington, myself, and like 20 other famous people in Silicon Valley. And I was like, and then somebody takes a screenshot of it and they're like, you're in NAMBLA? And I'm like, no. Facebook, last year, and then Zuckerberg's response was, well, if your friends put you in that NAMBLA group, you should get new friends. And it was like, you got put in there too. Yeah. And then the sad part about it was there were a group of young men who were gay and who were in college, and there was a gay choir in their college, and the person who was coordinating their Facebook group added them. So Zuckerberg, it wasn't enough for Zuckerberg to make it so anybody could add anybody to any group because it will grow faster, let alone you have to confirm you want to be added to the group. What it also did was posted it on their walls to increase engagement. And what they inadvertently did was they outed a bunch of 18, 19-year-olds in college to their families because they joined the gay men's choir at some college. And this is the kind of way, this is where Silicon Valley needs to check itself and to do better, is you have to really think, well, there is my incentive to grow faster, and then there's what's right for society and for the individual. You gotta think it through. Think it through. It's sometimes very difficult. This is where vision is required to anticipate the unintended consequences. And it seems like Mark Zuckerberg is not very good at that. You've talked to so many great leaders in this world, privately and publicly. What do you think makes a great leader of these tech companies? Do you have an example? Is Elon to you a great leader? He's also a controversial one, right? There's a love and hate, a controversial in the sense that there is, and I know a lot of people who've worked with him, for him, that there's also a love-hate relationship. The hate comes from the fact that they get pushed extremely hard. It's a very competitive environment, but it's a positive one because there's a vision that's underlying. It's similar to the Steve Jobs thing. It has to do with the, back to our Michael Jordan discussion as well, that there seems to be the demons involved, and tension, and just anxiety, all those kinds of things. If you wanna do great things, there will be some suffering. And there'll be some pain, and it's not easy if you wanna change the world. And then some people have this expectation that it's going to be easy. And what you'll typically find for any great leader who's trying to do something super ambitious, if you wanna be, if you're a rich guy and you start a restaurant, and you don't care about making money, and people have made restaurants before, you could be high fives, and everybody could love you, whatever. But if you wanna change the world, you wanna do something hard driving, there's gonna be sacrifice involved. And so the problem is, people are looking at something that is an Olympic caliber sport, or a Navy SEALs-like effort. In other words, an effort that requires massive sacrifice. We would not look at somebody who wins a gold medal, like Michael Phelps, and say, oh my God, he had to get up at 4 a.m. every day, and he had to swim, and he had to do an ice bath. Oh my God, that poor guy, he suffered, he was tortured. People were super mean to him, they put him in an ice bath. It was like, no, he wanted to be the greatest swimmer of all time, and he knew what the sacrifice entailed. And then what happens in work, in business, is that people conflate like, oh, well, I went to work to make a living to pay my bills, versus Michael Phelps' approach to getting gold medals, or Michael Jordan, or pick the person, Elon, or Jeff Bezos. And when you look at the reviews of a place like Amazon, there was this incredible story in the New York Times where people were, I don't know if you remember it, this is the worst place you could ever work, Amazon. And we talked to 200 people, and they all told us, they all described for us in the New York Times a culture of cutthroatness and brutality that has never before been seen. And then you see all these people who worked for Bezos for 24 years from when they graduated with their MBAs until today, and they've never left the company, and they are ride or die forever. And what you're seeing there is, there's a mismatch of people going to work in an extreme sport, or an extreme endeavor, who should not do that. There are people who should go out into the rice fields and pick rice. And then there's another group of people who are samurai and who wield a sword and who take on missions that are dangerous. But if you're a rice picker and that's what you do, and you feel safe just getting a couple grains of rice, put them in a basket, cleaning it, and then whatever, that's valid work, no big deal. I'm not deriding it, I am sort of, but that is one group, and then there's people who are samurai. And you cannot conflate the two, you cannot compare the two. And that's what is happening right now in business. Whenever you see these stories about this person at this company is like a tyrant, and they're so horrible, and they yelled at somebody. Like if you're in the field, and you're taking the beach at Normandy, and it's D-Day, or you gotta take the hill, or you gotta whack Osama bin Laden, and you're the Navy SEALs, and like a rudder, a rotor gets knocked off the back of the Black Hawk. Like this is serious shit. Like don't do it if you're not serious. And if you're not serious about changing the world, why would you go work for Bezos? Why would you go work for Elon Musk? Don't do it, don't go work there. This is, let me just sit back and enjoy the beauty of, all of that, that's music to my ears, but I'm not sure what to do with it, because it's conflicting to a lot of the things I hear from the way you're supposed to kind of act. And I think in order to do great things, you have to, I always admired people that lose their shit a little bit because they're so passionate. And apologize and all those kinds of things, but there's a tension, there's a drama to the creative process when, especially in the early startup, this is not like the work-life balance idea doesn't even apply. Work-life balance is ridiculous. It's a ridiculous concept. The idea that there's work-life balance in a startup is ridiculous. If you're looking for work-life balance, do not go to a startup or any kind of ambitious company. There is a series of places you can work in the world where you do not need to do anything more than what's put in front of you. And you just put the round peg in the round hole and the square peg in the square hole, and you go home. And you get your little bits and grains of rice and you go heat them up and eat them, that's it. And then there's this other thing, which is the extreme pursuit of changing the world and sacrificing. And we have a generation of people, multi-generations of people, who are soft. They're just soft. I mean, what is the big struggle we've had to deal with in America in our lifetimes? Like 9-11, and we didn't have the Vietnam War, and then we had this weird Iraq Wars and Middle East Wars that were kind of like a small number of people went and we sent drones. We have not had to sacrifice. Gen Xers, maybe the tail end of boomers experienced the Vietnam War, regrettably. But we've had a couple of generations now, three, I guess, that just haven't had to suffer. And so we're soft as Americans, we're soft. And then you look at people in China and we're like, oh my God, these poor Chinese people are living in these tiny cramped apartments. Like they were living in essentially lean-tos in Northern China with no running water or like one spigot of ice cold water for the entire village. They're thrilled to be joining the middle class, even if it's the bottom of the middle class, right? They've taken hundreds of millions of people in China and moved them into the middle class. And we're like, oh my God, these people are suffering. It's like, you know, they're up to $4 an hour, three or $4 an hour in the factories there. And they were just two decades ago at, you know, I don't know, it was probably 50 cents an hour, something crazy like that. And now they've improved the quality of life there so much, just like America did 200 years ago or 100 years ago. They've improved it so much in China that now they're getting outpriced for factories from Vietnam, Sri Lanka, Pakistan, India, and people are moving, and people in China are moving the factories out of China into other countries. Yeah. Because the Chinese are now outsourcing to Vietnam and other countries. So this is the way of the world. You know, people move up and they get a better lot in life for their families. And just in America, we've gotten soft and there's a generation. How do people die in America now? Suicide, obesity, heart attacks, anxiety. I mean, we're suffering from things that if you told people 100 years ago that the top ways Americans would die would be overeating and suicide, they'd be like, what? You're literally killing yourself or eating yourself to death? That's what's happening in America? And when everybody, not everybody, unmasked there's a large number of people who have become softer and softer. Capitalism creates an environment where there's people that still step up amidst that with a big dream and challenge the conventions. And that human spirit just arrives above that. As Elon has an example of that, Jeff Bezos has an example. Countless, countless examples. And they push the limits of those, of human beings that are willing to step up. I think about sort of how to create a company that amidst all of the softness, still creates a revolution. It's not, it doesn't seem trivial. It seems like how do you build a culture that's once healthy, but also unhealthy in the way that an Olympic pursuit is. It's all top down. Everybody just, you asked earlier what leadership was and I never answered the question. I think, what leaders do is they set the example. They set the bar. And if you look at someone like Elon, we're personal friends for 20 years, and he is indefatigable. I mean, the guy has a stamina that is just phenomenal. He does not get tired. He works relentlessly. And he sets that standard for the rest of the team. And I think Bezos is very sharp and likes to debate stuff and is very, and Jobs was just incredible at design and figuring out how to bridge that gap. So they just, leaders set the standard. They set the standard. And you know that your time is over as a leader when you can't set the standard. And that's when you have to pass the baton. And Bezos did that. And Bezos now is saying, you know what? I'm 57. I'm the richest guy on the planet, depending on the week. And I would like to do some other challenges, but I don't want to grind it out at Amazon for another 25 years. I want to do other things. And so he passed the baton. And that's the healthy thing to do in that regard. I do think there is a time period in which you can run that hot. And then at a certain point, you have to then change. Just like an athlete might go to be a coach, right? Or a commentator. And so, being an entrepreneur is brutal. It's seven days a week, 12 hours a day. Anybody who says anything differently is kidding themselves. You're going to have to sacrifice. And there's competition. And America has to fight. If America does not win capitalism, and China does, it is literally the end of the human species. It's over for humanity. Right now, everything has been going really well in terms of the number of people living in poverty is plummeting. Lifespans have been rising. Science is booming. The economy is booming. All these things are incredible. The one thing that's kind of stagnant right now is the number of people living in democracy versus under authoritarian rule. It's flat. So when you look at all Steve Pinker's charts and he's really excited, there's one you're going to see that's flat. And I think we peaked with 53 or 54% of people on the planet Earth being in a democracy. And now it's going below 50. And it's because some of the democratic, Western countries don't have the population growth of some of the communist and socialist countries and authoritarian countries. And we have to make sure that we win capitalism. We must win economically. That is the battlefield. The battlefield is science, technology, and money, and economy, finance. That's the battlefield. China wins, authoritarians win. And at any time, Xi Jinping can pull Jack Ma into a room and say, it's time for you to be reeducated. Or they can put three or four million people, Uighurs, into prison camps and say, you know what? This religious thing, that's counter to what is productive for us. Therefore, we're going to shave your heads and we're going to have you literally pick cotton in the fields. They have Uighurs with no sense of any kind of arc of history in the fields picking cottons as slaves in what can only be described by every humanitarian organization as a concentration camp. And every Jewish person I know takes great offense when somebody uses the Holocaust as a metaphor, except in the case of the Uighurs right now. And every Jewish person I've talked to has said to me, that is a Holocaust. That is millions of people going to genocide because of their religious beliefs. And I'm an atheist, but if people want to believe a certain religion, fine. But China's approach is we need to win capitalism so bad, we need to win on the global stage so bad, we can't have any of this religious stuff going on here. That is a distraction from winning and beating America. And then in America, the people who are going to make us win are the entrepreneurs and the scientists and the technology and our education system and finance. And we're vilifying those things. It's pretty dark. It's dark, but I still believe that the vilification is just in the space of Twitter and the space of ideas. I think that's probably a good- And entrepreneurs win out in the end. They don't listen to that. I believe we'll win. And they'll build, we'll get the rocks. Some of them do actually in their darkest moments, I can tell you that they turn off their Twitter accounts and they, I've had to sit down with a number of entrepreneurs and say, turn off Twitter. This is not healthy for you. This is not a healthy pursuit because don't read the comments. If you do, it's like a full contact sport. You should just take it as like professional wrestling or something, but stay focused on building companies and advancing the human species through science and technology. I mean- As you're describing, you've hosted this week in startups for how many episodes? 11 years, almost 1200 now. 1200. Yeah. So you've talked to some of the great leaders in business in general. Is there a common thing that you see or- Really messed up relationship with their parents. Like just find me a great entrepreneur. I will show me the trauma. Their dad was like, you're not good enough. In the teenage years, is that truly, is there something? There is definitely something- Like hardship at some point in their life kind of thing? Yeah, I think so. I mean, and there's definitely something with immigrant parents that is a bit of a stereotype out here, but I've heard from many investors, like that's like they're, oh, were your parents immigrants? And did they beat into you that you have to succeed and you feel the need to succeed because they suffered to get you to this country? Like there is an archetype there that I hear. When I started investing, I heard from a lot of people, it's like, yeah, you want to find those immigrant founders who are coming out of Stanford because they had to fight to get there and their parents had to fight, right? So it's like two huge fights and there's so much at stake as opposed to somebody who's fifth generation and like had everything handed to them and they were legacy and got into schools for free. But I think in general, the ability to get people to join you on that journey is so critical. So you have to be charismatic and it doesn't mean like you're an extrovert. There are introverts who are super charismatic and there are soft-spoken people. They don't have to be like super vivacious or rambunctious people. They could be just quiet assassins, but you need to be able to get people to come on the journey with you. You have to be that storyteller and you have to have that passion and then you have to transfer that enthusiasm to investors, the press, to customers, to all the stakeholders. And if you're enthusiastic about it and you're engaged, then it's easier for people to come on that journey. And that's why people really start to think about, well, what is the purpose of what I'm doing? And it sounds corny. And when I first heard that, I was like, it's kind of corny. But then I read this book by, I forgot his name, Rick something. He wrote The Purpose Driven Church and he had spoken at a Ted or something and everybody went crazy about it. And he's like, a church should have one purpose, one single thing they do. And like his church, which was like one of these mega churches in San Diego, just wanted to do education for this specific country. And that's all they did. And they benchmarked those. I think it's very important to have a purpose and a mission, not everything, but a specific purpose of some kind of joy that you wanna put into the world. You wanna solve some kind of big, hard problem. And then everybody knows why you're coming to work every day. And then for the founder, when you dread going to work that day and you don't feel like solving that problem anymore, that's the tell. And a lot of times I meet young founders, I'm like, why are you doing this? And they're like, well, I was looking for an idea and this is the one I came up with because I think I'll make a lot of money. And it's like, you're gonna quit. You're gonna get to month nine or 10 of this and you're gonna run out of money or like your CTO is gonna quit, then your CFO is gonna quit and you're gonna lose your biggest customer. And you're just gonna say, this is not worth it. And if using Bezos or Elon as examples, they just needed to see the world change in very specific ways and Steve Jobs. They needed to see a change and it doesn't matter if they made money or they were losing or winning, they just went to work every day and they had to change it. It's almost like they didn't have a choice. No choice. Elon makes it sound like torture his whole journey, but he can't help it. Having been a witness to it, just as friends for that long, I have never seen an entrepreneur suffer more than him. And I think that's the biggest thing that's happened to him and he's been public about that. Like you do not wanna be me. He has suffered for those companies. He has suffered to get them where they are. It has not been easy. Can you second analyze Elon in that aspect? Like is it just he can't help it? He must see the change that he hopes for in the world? He's just incredibly hardworking and he's very talented as well. And I don't think people understand that. He actually is a really brilliant engineer. At the end of the day, he actually knows what he's doing and he asked the right questions. I mean, people were kind of aghast that he was asking Vlad such good questions. And they're like, oh my God, Elon's the best journalist on the planet. And it was like, that's what he does. Kind of anybody who knows Elon knows he has great questions. I mean, I used to have dinner in LA and my book agent also was Sam Harris's agent and Sam and I met through John Brockman and we became friends because we lived near each other and I was friends with Elon. And then I used to invite them to both dinner in Brentwood because one lived in Bel Air, one lived in Santa Monica and I lived in Brentwood and we would go to this place, Popone, this Italian restaurant. And every Tuesday for years, we would just, the three of us every other Tuesday or so, we'd have dinner and I'd sit there and Sam wanted to know about AI and Elon's talking about artificial intelligence because he's on the board of DeepMind and Elon wanted to know about atheism and meditation and all this other stuff that Sam was an expert on. I got to sit there and like, just listen to these two guys talking. And they have both piercing intelligences, but Elon, he goes straight to the gut. Like the questions that no engineer wants to hear is like just the basic stuff that, it's like, why the hell are you doing it this way when the obvious solution is like much easier or this or that, like why haven't you tried this? He figured things out. I mean, he's a problem solver. I mean, and that's another thing. Like I think the great entrepreneurs can look at a problem with very fresh eyes, like almost consistently. And Bezos described that as day one thinking, right? Like just pretend this is day one every day. And then other people use the term first principles, but it basically means like when you see a problem, pause for a second and really think through what is the best possible solution here? What are some alternative solutions and get from everybody? Like, how do we solve this problem? And what people do sometimes they get in a rut when they just come to work and they just go through their email, they do whatever they did the day before, they don't think, why are we doing this? And is there a better way to do it? Now you can get so obsessive about that that you can over-engineer stuff and you can never actually ship a product. So there have to be some pragmatism and some goals and some dates associated with that. But it is a very cool thing to really think like, I wonder if we actually made the batteries ourselves, what that would look like, or I wonder if we could get to two-day shipping, or I wonder if we do same-day shipping. Like, you need to have somebody who's willing to say, you know what, fuck it, let's set a crazy audacious goal, two-day shipping of any product anywhere in the United States. And once you throw the gauntlet down like that, now everybody knows, they're rowing in the right direction, two-day shipping, Amazon Prime. And that's what people didn't realize about Amazon. The business wasn't shipping of those products, it was getting you to sign up for Amazon Prime. They have hundreds of millions of people doing Amazon Prime for 10 bucks a month. I think globally it's probably cheaper, but that was the driver of that business, was all of those people, because they would, you're an Amazon Prime subscriber? Do you know how much you pay? No. Exactly. It started at $50, and I think they even had like 40, 50, $60 was like the testing in the early days, and now it's, I think $149, 12, $13 a month. If you pay for the year, I think it goes down to 10 bucks a month, 120. And you're like, wow. And it's like, yeah, you're paying $13 a month for the privilege of shopping at Amazon. But you say it's the greatest thing in the world, because anything I need, if you forgot a microphone or a cable goes bad or a camera goes bad, you get it here within a day or less. Yeah. It's pretty amazing. You've already been dropping bombs, incredible advice on startups in general, but let me maybe go straight in and ask, is there advice for somebody that wants to go big, to build the big startup to help them succeed? Yeah, it's very similar to the advice I give to investors, because now I teach angel investing, because there's so many people who want to invest. And so I wrote a book on that, Angel, and then I do a course called Angel University that I teach six times a year. And then I have a syndicate called thesyndicate.com where I invest in companies. There's 6,500 people who are members of that. It's the largest syndicate in the world. In fact, the first deal we ever did was com.com, the meditation app. We put $378,000 into it when it was a $5 million product, a $5 million company. So we bought six or 7% of the company. It's now worth 2 billion. So you can do the math on that. We still own 5%. What year was it? Six years ago, so probably seven, yeah, maybe 2015, 2014. And nobody else would invest in com. But Sam Harris was the reason I did, because I asked Sam, tell me about meditation. And he's explaining it to me. And I said, what about this, you have to have a mantra, how does it work exactly? I know positive, he was like, well, you should just go to UCLA and talk to Diana Winston. And there's this whole project there. And I'm like, UCLA does meditation? He's like, yeah, there's a mindful institute. Like teaching people to be, to teach meditation. And they're doing PTSD and I'm doing brain scans. And I was like, oh. And then I talked to the UCLA people and they're like, it's real. Yeah, like we taught Phil Jackson and Kobe Bryant and Shaquille O'Neal did. That's how they won their championships, they meditated. And I was like, hmm, if UCLA is doing it, Sam says it's cool. Well, fuck it, I'll put money into that. And that's the second biggest investment in my career after Uber. And it will in all likelihood become the biggest. I mean, it's between Uber, Robinhood and Com. And long story short, when I'm teaching people to angel invest, there's really two things that you cannot, cannot fake. One is a product that is built really well. So if you look at Com, Robinhood, Uber, Tesla, Amazon, these products are transcendent, they're well-constructed, there's craftsmanship to them, they're great products. So you're saying not fundamentally like the idea but the execution of the actual craftsmanship for the construction. The actual product is amazing. Then there's customers. And that every business has ultimately a customer. And that customer, if they are in fact delighted by that product, that's the magic. Because you need a team to build the product, and then you need customers to use the product. And really those three vectors are undeniable. Now, you could have great teams that build a bad product, doesn't happen too often. Or you could have customers who don't like the product, but generally speaking, a great team will build a great product or a good product and iterate, and then eventually delight customers. And so most people say the team is the most important, but there's a lot of smart people out there. And let's assume that you can raise money for your idea, or you have money, or you can just convince people to do it for free. If you make a great product and it connects with users, that's the magic. You look at Clubhouse, it's actually a really well-designed product. And that product is connecting with customers. And if you were to talk to the customers or look at the product, you would see a well-constructed product and a delighted customer. And you can tell the delighted customer by just the amount of time they use it. That's called engagement. It's a fancy word for how much they use it. And Snapchat, when that was going around and they were trying to raise money, they had a fraction of the number of users. But the top maybe third were opening the app every hour. And nobody had ever seen that before. People were using Facebook a couple times a day, the top users, but nobody had ever seen people using it every day for 100 days in a row, every hour. And I was like, what's going on here? I was like, oh, the ephemeral messaging, and then the streaks. They had created these streaks between people where every day and then people would be on vacation, like I just have to open my streak and keep my streak with Lex that we chatted every day going. And so they had this like addictive nature to it. And that's why Clubhouse was able to garner so much investment is the number of hours people were using it every month was just unbelievably off the charts. Some of that is execution, but some of it is the weird little magic of the- Product market fit. Yeah, so there's something, I mean, Clubhouse, there's a, it's still a mystery to me because I also use Discord voice. There's an intimacy to voice. Oh, for sure. Well, you have people's, yeah, tent. It's, well, but like the video gets in the way actually in a weird way. There's a privacy when you just use voice. People are not taking showers now, Lex. I mean, we're in a pandemic and people just roll out of bed. And the hair thing, nobody's getting haircuts. Nobody's hair is good. Nobody's getting haircuts. People are wearing gym clothes. I mean, Zoom is just horrific to be on Zoom for five hours a day. It is exhausting. Well, it does make me wonder what once we emerged from the pandemic, whether product market fit, how that evolves with Clubhouse and all of those kinds of things. Yeah, no, Clubhouse is a beneficiary of the pandemic for sure. When do you think the pandemic, when do you think debts will be under, let's say 200 a day and we'll have 200 million people on the other side of this? Because that's kind of what it takes, right? You gotta get to 150, 200 million people on the other side in America. I haven't, you know, I personally stopped deeply thinking about this because I've been frustrated for so long. Ah, you checked out. I almost checked out because it psychologically allows me to carry on because I thought for many months now that testing needs to be done at scale. And it still hasn't gotten done. It has. So we gave up basically on testing. We gave up. Because we're all sitting there waiting for vaccine to come along. And the distribution of the vaccine is not, you know, it's struggling from the same kind of things that the testing is gonna take quite a bit of time. So it does, if everything goes great, meaning there's not a second strand of the virus that's going to create a second major wave, that I am cynical enough to think that it won't be until mid-summer that we start opening back up. Yeah, I think it's gonna be May, June. I'm a little bit earlier than you. I've been tracking it. It's like 1.5 million shots in arms a day. I think this vaccine's been undersold. I mean, it's a miracle not one person who was in the trials died, who took it, and only one went to the hospital and they weren't even put on a ventilator. So, and the hospitalizations are plummeting. And we're at 10% now in the United States. At the pace we're going at 1.5 a day. I think when the Johnson & Johnson one comes out next month, it'll be 3 million a day, maybe, two and a half. And we already have 100 million people who've likely had it. So I've been doing the math. I think we're like 60 days away, February, March. Yeah, sometime in April, I think, anybody's gonna be able to get a shot. And the number of deaths is gonna go below 200 a day. And once that happens, I think people who have had enough of this, they're just gonna go YOLO. But see, the crucial piece for me that I've been focusing on is the social media aspect of how the, it's not just about the reality of deaths. It's about the state of the collective intelligence of the human species, which is determined by our communication on social media. So we can be collectively afraid. The fear can spread, or it could be YOLO can spread, or it could be all different kinds of misinformation. And of course, during the election year, the politics influences our perception of what is true and not. But having real rigorous, nuanced conversation about this kind of stuff is the way out of this. And that's where social media really comes in, because social media drives division, where people form tribes and so on. And it feels like it's honestly a technology problem. People say it's a human problem, but it just feels like, I believe humans are good, technology can enable them to be thoughtful. We talked earlier about the magic of Silicon Valley, and then maybe going too far with the Facebook groups example, where you take out all that friction. What happened was, we used to have something called R-Cron, reverse chronological order. That's how you consume to feed. So any kind of social feed, like Twitter was in reverse chronological order. The newest thing was up top, and you would just work your way backwards. And so it gave this like really fresh feeling. And then a guy named Dave Moran and the team over at Facebook realized, you know, there are some things that got a lot of attention two hours ago. And the stuff since then has not been as important. But if you missed that, there was a really good tweet where there was a really good update. Like somebody had a baby. Can we get the baby one at the top? And it was like, well, how would we do that? How would we know that that's the important one? It's like, well, let's put a like button on it. And let's see how many comments there are. So if it gets a lot of likes or comments or retweets, let's show those first, and then we'll kind of mix in the most recent stuff. And so when you're on Twitter, and then when Facebook did that, Facebook became so addicting, because Facebook was on, what has got the most engagement? Put that first. So every time you opened up Facebook, you get the dopamine hit. And then what happens when you see the Bart Mitzvah photo or, you know, the enraging story about some injustice in the world, you retweet it. You write a comment. You share it on your wall. And thus this addiction to the outrageous, the outlandish, the inspiring occurred. And it used to be like inspiring stuff, puppies or some heartwarming story. And then it got dark. And then people started to realize, if I wanna show up on the top of my friend's feeds, if I say something controversial or I'm outraged, I get to the top. And then that's when outrage culture came in. And then that's when cancel culture came in. Everybody started to realize, if I try to cancel that person for being a racist or a sexist or a horrible human being, or whatever they did that's wrong, I get to the top of the feed. And we all collectively started playing a very weird video game, which is how outraged can we all be? And to get to the top of the list. And then of course, with Trump, he realized it. And he's like, okay, yeah, I'm just gonna make fun of a celebrity and I get more retweets. Okay, I'm gonna make fun of Rosie O'Donnell for being overweight or something. And he just starts attacking people. And people are like, oh my God, what did he say? And he copied that from Howard Stern because he was in New York and he used to be on Howard Stern. And Howard Stern took over all the dialogue in the 80s and 90s because he was outrageous. And then Trump did that. And then social media incorporated that into the operating system. It became the actual device of social media was the ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. We've got something incredible for you. Everybody salivates like Pavlov's dog. Oh my God, I can be outraged. That's what's gotta be undone. And the only way for that to be undone is these things can't be billions of people where the most outrageous thing that happened in the world today, in the last five minutes, is now in front of you. And that's why people have anxiety, they don't sleep, and they doom scroll all night. It's because the human mind was not meant to process this much suffering, pain, anger. And that's why we have all this mental health issues. Also, young girls or even adults watching other people post their private jets and their vacations and YOLO adventures on their Instagram to the point at which young people are now faking being on private jets to put on their Instagram. And creating this crazy FOMO around their Instagrams. We wonder why people are unhappy. If you think everybody's on a private jet going to some Michelin star restaurant or whatever the coolest thing in the world is today, going to the Grammys, going to whatever, Coachella, Burning Man, you're like, oh, but I'm home. I'm in my house. And I'm not at Burning Man. Getting inadequate. Exactly. So this whole system is creating the wrong set of incentives. I tend to believe it's possible to still have extremely high engagement and create a successful, profitable business while encouraging personal growth. Like encouraging people to be the best version of themselves. I just think we haven't, we got the first generation of social networks. I think a new generation needs to be built. Is that your plan for a business? Well, I have a longer term plan in terms of ambition, which is I believe in being able to have deep connection between human and AI systems, like partners, friends. There is a connection to there with social media. I do think AI has a strong role to play in representing us, in guiding us in how we consume social media. So this algorithm that controls the feed for Facebook is a somewhat centralized algorithm. But instead to give more power to the people, individuals to where each one of us have our own algorithm. Bring your own algorithm. Bring your own algorithm. B-Y-O-A. B-Y-O-A, I like it. Instead of bringing your own alcohol, bring your own algorithm. Well, I mean, if you thought about it, if we came and said, I want, when I look at my Twitter feed, I would like to see the people with, who are the most helpful in the world, generous, kind, intelligent, considered, you know, commenting on things that I don't already know about because I want to open my worldview. That could be a beautiful thing for society. And actually Jack was talking about potentially on Twitter, letting people bring their own algorithms and sort their feeds themselves. This would be a wonderful thing. I think it's one of the reasons Clubhouse has resonated is it's such a diverse group of people that I've been able to drop in on conversations with people who are nothing like me and listen in and hear conversations that I wouldn't normally be privy to. And I, my, everybody's like, oh, come join as a speaker. I want to do a room with you. I get asked every day, can we do a room? Can we do a room? Ask an angel investor, talk about startups. And I'm like, my usage of Clubhouse is going on my Peloton treadmill, putting Clubhouse on, picking a room and just listening. It's so delightful for me as a podcaster where my job is to talk, to sit back and just put in a couple of miles and play chess and listen to a Clubhouse discussion that is about relationships or some fashion or hip hop or whatever it is that I'm not part of. I just sit there and I listen and you learn. It's like such a delightful thing. I always think about these kids who go to college and I've always been so jealous of these Ivy League kids. They go and they're like, oh, I gotta go to class. And I'm like, I would just love to sit there and listen to Professor Lex talk. You know, like what a privilege to sit there and let somebody else drive and talk and listen and learn. Yeah, that's the beauty of podcasting. But of course, Clubhouse creates a whole nother experience where it's conversations is different. I think it's gonna be the in-between. I like it as a, you release your podcast. Like you and I are gonna release this podcast, right? And then at some point I'll have you on my pod when you launch your startup. And then at some point somebody is gonna be like, you and I will run it. And I ran into you. I saw you were on Clubhouse the other night and I was busy, but I was almost gonna click on you and say, let's start a room together. But you and I will start a room together with Eric Weinstein or somebody or Sam Harris will jump in or Elon and we'll have a different experience which would just shoot the shit. And it'll act as like a fabric and a little filler between the tent pole podcasts, right? Like you and Eric, you've done three, I think with Eric. Yeah, it was your fourth. I haven't released the fourth yet. Okay, so I'm a watched all three because I really thought you're Yu Wei and him like giving you advice is very interesting dynamic. I thought it was very interesting dynamic. And I find him like a fascinating cat. We know everybody in common except we've never met. It's very weird because you know, you think about the social graph in the real world. This is why I think augmented reality is gonna be such an amazing product. I just have one killer feature I want for augmented reality. We wear our glasses and when I look at you above your head, I see the relationships we have and the things we've done together, right? So I see, oh, you both know Sam Harris or you had Elon on the podcast on this date or you and I were both at Burning Man in 2016. So like the most meaningful element of our connection and network, yeah. Correct. And then, cause we would discover that through small talk but imagine you're like at a party and you look and it just, people glow. And you just see a glow around a person and like green means you have some financial relationship, blue means you have some friendship one or yellow means you have friendship one, blue means you know nothing about each other. You have no connections. You're like, wow, these blue people have no connection to. These people, that one's glowing red. We know seven or more people in common and those are the seven people. Oh, we should go talk about how we know each other. That could, and that sort of happened with Facebook member or MySpace where you were like, oh, you know that person, friend of a friend, but that's what is gonna be ARs. Like this is why I think if Apple figures out AR or Snapchat and they just have those glasses, forget about VR, it's just nauseating and whatever. But AR where you put the glasses on, you see the real world, but you augment it. Or you make, just like you were saying, you make it frictionless, a very low friction to make a deep human connection because you have all the basic elements there already. Now think about the unintended consequences of what I just described. It could get creepy and weird. The privacy thing. I mean, people will, here's the thing. People, your privacy is an illusion. Like all this information is there. And then people are more than willing to give up privacy in exchange for some value. It's a value trade. And giving, if my Tesla, when I'm driving in the direction of my house just starts the navigation and saves me three clicks and that friction's gone, I'm willing to give Tesla my location and my home address. Right? I'm not willing to give Zuckerberg anything because I don't trust him, but you get the idea. I mean, it will be that way with like DNA and other things. At some point we'll just be like, yeah, just take my DNA. Like I don't, yeah, sure. People can look and see that I'm a mental midget and my IQ is like lower than, I don't want to bring the bell curve up or whatever, but you could figure out like, if we all put our DNA in a sequence online and be like, oh yeah, Lex has got 10 more IQ points than J-Cal. And Sam's got 10 more than Lex. And all of a sudden people are like all bed out of shape about it. But what if we did that and they were like, and by the way, you also, all three of you are going to get Parkinson's unless you do X, Y, and Z, unless you eat more blueberries or whatever we figure out. They're going to accept it pretty quickly. Brave new world. Brave new world. I have to ask you, just like you were saying, you're one of the world experts in investing in startups. Yeah, VC and so on. From the perspective of the startup, I was always kind of skeptical of raising money. It feels like people do it too quickly, too easily, but I don't know what the hell I'm talking about. When is the, when should a startup raise money? And from the perspective of the investor, when should the investor invest in a startup? Like, is there a timing thing here? Is there a, what, yeah. It's a very important question because the venture capital community is only going to fund, you know, sub 1% of enterprises started in the United States every year, like maybe 10 basis points of them, like one in a thousand. And the reason is it's jet fuel. You only want to take that money if you really want to build something big and you want to build it fast. And when you put jet fuel behind a startup, as we've seen with other rockets, things can blow up and people can die. You know, it's not people literally dying, but the business can go up and smoke, right? Like rockets get blown up all the time at SpaceX as part of their ambitious plans. And startups, seven out of 10 startups we invest in go to zero. Now, if you were to start the business and only build it off customer revenue and use your own money and go nice and slow and grow 10% a year, the chances of you blowing up the rocket are very low because you're riding a bicycle. Like, you can go a little faster, but the bicycle can only go so fast. And once you start taking that money, the way venture capital is constructed as in the mix of like MIT or Harvard's endowments is, you know, we're gonna put some money into safe things and then we're gonna have these really binary things over here. And they probably put 5% in venture capital traditionally. It's grown to 20% just as a function of how successful it's been. So, you know, the Harvard's of the world and MIT is probably one five or 10% in venture, but it's grown to 25% because, you know, companies like Airbnb and Uber have grown so big and Tesla. But the goal is in these venture funds, we're gonna invest in 30 names and one or two of them are gonna return three times the capital we've deployed. So it's a $300 million fund and there's 30 names and they each got 10 million. That means one of the 10 million is gonna return the fund plus. So that means it has to grow 30X and then 60X to double the fund. And you're really supposed to be doing three times cash on cash. So that $300 million funds, the expectation is in 10 years to return 900 million. Triple the person's money as opposed to the stock market, which doubles your money in the same period. So you're supposed to do 25% annualized returns in order to triple the money. And maybe I have an outlying chance of four or five times the money, which does happen sometimes when you have an outlier in your portfolio like Uber or Facebook was. And what that means is the venture capitalist behavior and the game they're playing is different than you as the founder. You as the founder, you may really care about this and it dying really matters to you. And then you got a venture capitalist who's like, we're betting on 30 names, we need two of them to hit it out of the park, maybe three and nothing else is meaningful. So now you start thinking about the game theory there. You're dealing with money that is coming in that only cares about you going 100X. Yes. It's a whole different ball game. Whereas if you build off revenue, you don't have to do that. And if you look at a company like com.com, we invested at 5 million, the next round they did was 250. They were so capital efficient that they grew from $10,000 a month in revenue to millions of dollars a month in revenue over those four years since we invested and they didn't raise money in between. Wow. It was unbelievable. And I've only seen this happen three or four times. So it doesn't happen all this capital efficient meaning based on customer revenue alone plus some small amount of fundraising, you're able to go. How hard is it to do that? It takes extreme product market fit. You have to have a great price for your product that has a great margin. Yeah. And if you're doing something in hardware, it's probably impossible because it's super capital intensive. So it's probably gotta be a software business. Hardware businesses take a lot more. Do venture capitalists get in the way at all of the business or is it possible to get out of the way? Yeah, if you get young venture capitalists who are starting their career, they're very nervous and scared because they're putting all these bets. And then there's a very weird thing that happens. The bad news comes first. So companies that don't work out go out of business immediately. So if it's not gonna be com or Robinhood or Uber, those take seven, you know you have one of those great successes somewhere in your five, six, seven, eight as an investor. What is the first five years like? First five years, you feel like an idiot. Cause you, let's say you make these 10 bets. In year two, two or three of them come back and they don't have product market fit and they're out of money. Yeah. And they say, can we have more money? And you say, no, we have to go get it from somebody else cause you have to prove that there's still a market for it. We may keep our pro rata. We may put a little bit in to maintain our percentage ownership, but we're not going to give you another big chunk of money. Yes. And that company dies. So now you've got 10 million, poof up in smoke, boom, 10 million up in smoke. So this is called the J curve where your performance goes down. And then it's only in years four or five and six it starts going up. And what you're seeing right now is the people who started like I did in 2000, you know, just a bit 11, 12 years ago in 2009, I started investing. We all look like geniuses. Why? We're at the end of the cycle. We invested after when the stock market was on the floor after the financial crisis and it's gone straight up since. So everybody looked, there's a couple of little blips in there, but generally speaking, there hasn't been like a major crash with the exception of the pandemic crash but that bounced right back. And so, you know, it takes a decade to figure out if you're good at it. And then if the market crashes again, everybody feels like an in again, the cycle starts again. So you are now as a founder, you are now inserting yourself into that casino. And now you've got all these other forces pushing and pulling and you're growing. Let's say your company was growing 50%. You feel like, wow, I'm successful. I made a million dollars last year. Now I'm doing a million and a half. And the first thing a VC is gonna say is how do we triple? We're growing too slow. See, but that's like you said that beautifully is a rocket fuel. It's in the sense, it's a kind of motivation. It's a drive. I mean, it's a positive. So if you want that, that's like- If you want that. If you want that, if you want to go to Navy SEAL school, you're gonna be in pain and they're gonna put that hose in your face while you're underwater with your hands tied behind your back in the pool and you're gonna be choking and they may have to do CPR on you. And like every couple of years, tragically, somebody dies in Navy SEAL school. Yeah. Well- Does it mean we're getting rid of the Navy SEALs? It's like, Rocky, if he dies, he dies. I don't know if you know who David Goggins is by any chance. I do. I mean, I don't know him personally, but oh my Lord. So I'm running 48 miles together with him in person in a month. What? You're doing an ultra marathon? With him and probably other stuff because he enjoys just breaking people and making them cry. So- Oh my God, I'm so jelly. So, no, I, well, I offered, we agreed a while ago to do a podcast and he's like, oh yeah, come, we'll do it this day. And then- Is he in the Bay area? I don't know where the hell he is, but we're doing it. And I don't think I'm supposed to say where it is, but it's not anywhere close to anywhere of this. It's in the middle of nowhere. But he seems to be in a bunch of different locations. Like he's in Oregon or something like that. What does he do for outside of writing books and being inspirational? Does he actually train people or like- No, he's just, he's a full-time insane. Like he fights forest fires like for a few months a year as a farmer, like unpaid labor. Like he, you know, there's a bunch of people who are like him, like Navy SEALs and so on that kind of make a career out of motivational speak and all that kind of stuff. He's not interested in any of that. He's literally interested in just doing hard shit all the time. Breaking himself. Breaking himself personally. He seems like he wants to break himself. And that book is amazing. And the audio book's amazing when he's talking about how fat he was and how he just had to go and keep running and his legs are broken and he's just super pain and he just goes through it. It's really inspiring. Inspiring thing also. Are you gonna videotape yourself doing this? I can't wait to see you get destroyed. Yeah. This is gonna be so entertaining for the Lex audience. Woo. The pain. But the other inspiring thing is he's happily married. Oh, good. And there's a partnership there that's, you know, everybody finds this attention as a push and pull that's beautiful, I think. But in speaking of beautiful push and pull, how about that transition? Yeah, here we go. You and Jamat, he's a friend of yours. Bestie. We're besties. Yeah. Yeah, good friend. I mean, there's very few people in my life, him, Elon, David Sachs, John Brockman, very few people have supported me as much as those folks. I mean, I'm a huge debt. So he's also co-host on the All In podcast. We taped episode 21 today. Oh, today? Yeah. Every Friday now. They wanna do every Friday. They're addicted like me and you are to podcasts. So you're going to release it when? It's probably released as we're sitting here. Okay, beautiful. I can't wait. Special guest on it. We had Draymond Green from the Warriors phone in. So we had our first guest. Awesome. Yeah, so it's really funny because he plays poker with us and we're all besties. Beautiful. So you guys went pretty heated. Yes, we did. Against each other versus on Robin Hood. Yes. There's just two things I wanna ask. First, on the actual Robin Hood discussion and the Wall Street Best discussion, can you still man his argument? What was the nature of the disagreement? Where, what is the little, because I don't think it's as big as a space as it came off as sounding. So. What is the nature of the disagreement? He felt that Robin Hood turned off trading because the hedge funds told them to and that they were bowing down to the pressure of the hedge funds. That's not true, but in a vacuum of information, you know what happens to people's minds, conspiracy theories abound. And sometimes there is a conspiracy theory and sometimes there's just the appearance of impropriety or a bunch of related things. Like when you look at the Trump situation with Russia, like was Trump trying to coordinate with Russia or were the Russians just screwing with a bunch of like neophyte, idiotic dipshits, like Donald Trump Jr. who don't know any better. And they don't know that you shouldn't meet with the Russians. And if you do meet with the Russians, you are probably a useful idiot. You probably should tell the FBI. They're just a bunch of idiots in all likelihood, who knows? And there's a vacuum of information. And there's a vacuum of information, we don't know. And the Russians are trying to compromise everybody. So would you call it a conspiracy or would you call it an attempted conspiracy? There was no conspiracy here. What it was was Robin Hood needed to raise billions of dollars to say solvent in all likelihood. And they weren't allowed to talk about it. So they were forced into not talking about it in all likelihood and had to come up with that money or shut down. And then what got me upset with Chamath and we had a talk afterwards that people don't know about, I'll talk about it here for the first time. On Sunday, we had to have a little, we had to air it out. Yeah, in the episode after you guys sounded like you've had a private, you've made up. We had a private discussion, just one-on-one. And we said, listen, we love each other, we're besties. We've always been there for each other. What happened here? And what happened there is I'm fiercely loyal to my folks, whether it's Chamath or Travis from Uber or Sax or whoever. I'm just a loyal guy. And I'm always ride or die with my founders. If I invest in them, even if they make a mistake and Uber made plenty of mistakes, I always went on CNBC on my podcast and said, hey, we're gonna fix these things. I'm in touch with the team. Mistakes were made, we're gonna solve them. This is a group of people with great intent who want to make the world a better place. And you know what? I was hated for a period of time with Uber. I was hated for it last week with Robinhood. I got a lot of blowback. But I think in both of those cases, eventually I was right. Uber's doing great stuff in the world. Robinhood's doing great stuff in the world. And I like to be loyal to my investments and my partners to just, I feel like if you invest and you're on the team, you have really three choices. You can either fight for your team, you can go silent, or you can throw your team under the bus. And I've watched investors throw the team that they invested in that made them a bunch of money under the bus, not acceptable to me. And being quiet's not acceptable to me. So I always ask the founder, do you want me to, is it okay if I go out and defend you publicly? If they say yes, I do it. And then- That's beautiful by the way, because what else do we have in this world if not friendship? Loyalty means everything to me. I grew up in Brooklyn where if you were not loyal and you were not loyal to your crew, then you were a Ronin. You were out there on your own, flailing in the, you know, trust me, you do not want to be on your own in 1970s, 80s Brooklyn, Manhattan. Like you need to have a crew with you. I've gotten into, you know, you don't want to get into a fight with 10 guys and be alone or just be with, you need a crew to survive. So I just learned early and my dad who owned a bar just drilled into me being loyal. And so for whatever reason, I'm a bulldog when it comes to loyalty. And Shamoff came out and said, you know, these guys need to go to jail and there's scumbags and da-da-da-da. And I'm trying to defend them. And I'm in a position where I can't defend them because I don't have complete information. There is no complete information. It's in the heat of the moment. And then it becomes the number one story. And it's my number three investment. And Shamoff has a competing company, SoFi. And he's killing my guys. And then I started killing his guys. And then all of a sudden we're like, wait a second, we're best friends and we're swinging our swords at each other. And we're a group of the seven samurai who fight together. When did we turn on each other? And then everybody else who's on the pod, the two Davids who, you know, both on the spectrum a bit, they got a little Asperger's or whatever. No offense, Lex. Untaken. Untaken. I'm not saying, you know, you're into AI and you might be somewhere. It's not a coincidence yet. Might not be a coincidence. Anyway, we upgraded the two Davids firmware. We're gonna upgrade your firmware after this. I'll give you, yeah. You're on the 1.5. You have the three emotions now. Or should we add a fourth? Do you wanna go with joy? I'm on the 2.0 already. You're on the 2.0, you got the joy. How's it working out for you, the joy chip? It's difficult. It's difficult, you'll get there. Just let it happen, Lex. Just let the joy happen. So anyway, we just talked about it offline and we decided like, listen, we didn't pregame that episode and I happened to be skiing with my family. I had taken the first like vacation since this goddamn pandemic started and I was having a wonderful time. And then this whole thing blows up. I'm coming off the mountain, just having a great time with my daughter skiing. And, you know, and then I'm mixing it up with him. And, you know, he had a short fuse about it because he was triggered, he told me, because he really feels like he's fighting to defend, you know, the every man. And I was like, that's what my team's doing. That's why they named the company Robinhood. We're on the same side here. And then over time, we've started to see the explanation come out. And, you know, people who are friends are gonna have disagreements. In the podcast, it happened to happen very publicly and we didn't know it was gonna become the number one story in the world. If Trump still had his Twitter handle, this would not have been a story. Trump would have said something about GameStop and he would have co-opted the entire conversation. So in a way, going back to our censorship discussion, I might actually be in favor of Trump being censored only because, only because how delightful has it been since January 20th that we can all focus on something other than him. He was exhausting. I mean, the amount of cycles he took on our processors. He monopolized the conversation. And now this is a little bit more of a distributed. Yeah, everybody gets a chance to be the number one news story. Everybody gets a chance to discuss it. So on a scale of one to 10, how much do you love Chamath? Oh, 11, I mean, I love Chamath. I mean, we played cards last night. We're besties and I would literally jump in front of a bullet for him. I mean, what's the lesson in that discussion? Cause it was super, I wouldn't, I think the love was felt and the respect was felt at all, even when you guys are going pretty vicious on each other. Is there a lesson to be learned? Do you regret any of that conversation? I mean, I think he told me that he regretted some of the things he said publicly on the podcast. Like, listen, I was a little hot. I may have said things in the heat of the moment, but I don't live with too much regret cause I always think about intent. As one of the nuance and intent have been totally lost. The idea that we could have any of kind of a nuanced discussion about things seems to have been forgotten. And the fact that people don't look at people's intent. If you hurt somebody's feelings or you disrespect somebody or you do something mean or whatever, I always look at the intent, you know? And I've had people attack me and I look at the intent and I'm like, that person feels bad about themselves. Or maybe I said something and I insulted them and that's why their blowbacks there. So I always try to think what's the intent of the person and then almost universally you talk to somebody and you find out you ascribe some crazy intent. That's not there. And they're like, oh yeah, you know what happened? I got in a fight with my spouse and I didn't sleep last night and I've had a lot of anxiety about my business and I just snapped and said something about you. And it's like, oh, okay. Like I literally had somebody on Twitter this past summer. I had said something. I was complaining about a New York Times journalist and something I thought was wrong. And this person was a fan of that journalist. And they went, I kid you not, onto my social media account, found a picture I'd taken about how blue the sky was one day. They reverse image searched the tree line, found the tree line on Google image search somehow with a reverse image search, found an old listing that some broker had listed on their like website of my house and then posted my home address, the value of my home and doxed me on Twitter. And I'm like, what is going on here? So I call the person and I look them up and they work in private equity in Boston. And I look and I'm like, this person works in Boston. This is July 4th week. So, and when I look at the person's LinkedIn, we have seven people in common. So going back to the AR conversation, I'm like, okay, this person literally just doxed me. I asked them to take it down. They told me they won't take it down. And then I look at it. So then I DM him back on Instagram, on Twitter. And I said, by the way, your boss, Susan, and I know seven people in common. And these are the seven people. Here's a screenshot. What is she going to think when I call her on Monday and you've doxed me? Here's my phone number if you'd like to talk. He calls me. I said, what's going on? Why would you do this? He's like, well, I really have pissed off about what you said about this person. I was like, you understand I've had like two or three stalkers, like in anybody who's a high profile like I am, like we're medium profile. You're going to have weird things happen. You literally put my home address. You put my family at risk. What if I put your home address on my, I have 400,000 followers or 300,000 followers. You have like 300. What if I post your address? He said, well, I wish you wouldn't do that. I was like, well, I asked you kindly to take my address down. And I said, are you married? I said, how old are you? Are you like 25 or something? He's like, no, I'm 42. I was like, you're 42 years old. I said, are you married? Do you have kids? He's like, yeah, I just had a baby like six months ago. I'm like, you're home with your wife. It's July 4th weekend. You're doxing Jason Calaghanis because you're upset at me because I said something about a New York Times writer. He's like, yeah, this is the biggest mistake of my life. I said, I tell you what, let's forget it ever happened. And he wrote me back. And he said, I just wanted to thank you for how you handled it. My wife said I'm a complete fucking moron. And he literally said to me, my wife says a complete fucking moron. And I'm really sorry, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I wrote her back. I wrote her back and I said, my wife says the same thing to me all the time. I walk up to the club. It's totally fine. But intent, nuance, it matters. And the person could be having a bad day and they do something stupid they regret. And what am I gonna do, cancel the guy? Or if I had called his boss, he would have been fired immediately. And then I got to live with this guy got fired and he's got a kid. And what is this personal destruction? Why are we doing this to each other? Life's hard enough. Life's hard, right? Like just getting through the day is hard. Yeah, and that little bit of empathy, thinking about the intent of the person allows you to then sort of deescalate this kind of conversation that social media wants to escalate. Yes, back to what we were saying. If this, in my younger years, I would have retweeted the guy's home address and my address and would have called his boss and tried to get him fired or whatever. And it's like, now I'm just like, why are we attacking each other? Life is so hard. I mean, this is what the pandemic, I think should make everybody realize is like, look at how hard it is. Life is hard. And then just think about all the people suffering right now who are at home, the single mom or dad with two or three kids at home, in public school, maybe they've been laid off and their kids aren't learning and they're in a tiny apartment. I mean, this has been brutal for a lot of people. Not to mention people losing loved ones or maybe some people got corona and now their lungs are still not right. Can I ask you about love? Oh, sure. I'm feeling it, like we're in hour two here, Lex. Yeah, you're feeling it. We could become besties. We're getting it. I feel like we got a bromance going here, Lex. I feel it too. I don't know if it's Eric Weinstein level, but I feel like it's close. Yeah, I'm feeling the love. But we talked about the, there's music to my ears, your whole rant on the Olympic nature of a startup. Is there a role, like what role does love, family, friendship play in that brutal pursuit of excellence that is building a startup, building a company or building, creating anything new in this world? Such a great question and totally unprepared for it. Because I know nobody would ever ask me about that. So I think that's why you've got quite a following on your podcast is that you're able to ask these questions. And I can tell one story because I don't talk about, I try not to talk about relationship with Elon that often because he's so famous now. I mean, when we met, I used to go out to parties with him and people were like, oh my God, you're Jason Kalkus. I was like, yeah. I'm like, who's your friend? I'm like, that's my friend Elon. And they'd be like, what, he's doing rocket ships? But he's told this story publicly so I can tell it. And it would never talk about anything that he hasn't already talked about publicly, especially since he's so high profile. But it was pretty funny moment. There was a moment in time when Tesla almost went out of business. And you've probably heard the story many times, but it was during the financial crisis and they were running out of money. And they said, let's go get a steak. And we're in LA, we drove to BOA and I had my orange Tesla Roadster and he had his P1 or P2, like the red one that I think is in space now. And we drove to the valet and we had a steak together and we're sitting there. And I said, I read the story in Gawker or whatever, and New York Times, you only got like five weeks of money left in Tesla. He goes, it's not true. I was like, oh, thank God. He goes, we have two weeks. I was like, oh God. I was like, well, what's going on with the rocket ship company? You know, like, I know you did the one last month and don't you have one coming up? He's like, yeah, we've got the third one coming up. I was like, well, how's that going? He said, well, we'd blow that one up. There's no more SpaceX. I was like, so two weeks of money left in Tesla and SpaceX, she blew up the first two rockets, she blew up the third SpaceX's over. He's like, yeah. I was like, I can loan you a couple million dollars. I don't have like a ton. He's like, it's okay, our friend, beep, has loaned me some money. And Elon's been super public about this. I would never tell the story unless he hadn't been, but he was talking, he never said who it was, but somebody had loaned him money to keep him afloat. He was functionally bankrupt. I mean, he had the equity in the companies, but the equity was quickly becoming worth zero and the financial crisis. And he's figuring out if he's gonna go on vacation for Christmas or not. And he's on the phone trying to, you know, save both companies. And I said, certainly there must be some good news. And he takes out his BlackBerry to date this conversation. There are no iPhones. Takes out his BlackBerry and he starts swiping and he says, don't tell anybody. This is what I'm building. And he shows me the Model S. And nobody knew that he was working on the Model S. We knew he was doing the Roadster and he was trying to save the company. And I looked at it and I was like, that's gorgeous. It was the clay models. So it was a full-size clay model. So there's human being standing around a clay version of this tiny little BlackBerry picture. I'm scrolling through on the, remember that little pad or the ball on the BlackBerry? I'm scrolling through it. I'm like, this is fucking great. And I just said to him, it's like, what's the range gonna be? I said, well, I think we get 250 miles. I was like, 250 miles? He's like, yeah, I think it'd be the safest car ever. I said, what is it gonna cost? He says, I think this could cost eventually 50, $60,000. I said, Elon, if you make that car, you'll change the goddamn world. You have to, this company must survive because the Roadster's for like 2,000 people in the United States, this car is for every person in the United States. Every single person in the United States will want this car if it's $50,000. And maybe some of the people who have 20 or 30,000 cars won't be able to afford it, but they'll all want it. It's gorgeous. And he said, you really think so? I said, yeah. So I got home and I talked to my wife, Jade, and I said, do you have the checkbook? She does all the finances and stuff like that, pays every bills and whatever. And I said, don't tell anybody Elon's making this great car. And I wrote two checks for $50,000. And I just took out a piece of paper and I wrote, E, comma, love the new car, I'll take two. And I signed it. I kissed the two $50,000 checks, put them in the envelope, and I FedExed it to him for Monday delivery. And I said to Jade, that $100,000 is going to be gone in 48 hours because it will pay for one or two days of payroll on Tesla. So we just added like, instead of two weeks in row, he's got 12 days. Yeah. And the checks don't cash, but then I read a story that he's closed the money, saved the company like the next week or two. And a couple of months later, the checks get cashed. And I'm like, okay. Three years later, I get an email, your reservation number, it's from Tesla, your reservation number is 0-0-0-0-0-0-1. And then five seconds later, your reservation number is 0-0-0-0-73. And I forward the number one to Elon, I said, you know, I can't take number one, a signature number one, I can't take that, that's yours. And he's like, oh, I got five of them. And besides, you're the first person who ordered it. And I was the first person who had seen it. You're gonna give me to be teary-eyed. I mean, that's beautiful. No, it was a very- That's a beautiful moment. It was an incredible moment for both of us. And we talk about it sometimes, you know, those moments in time. And when you, to your point about love, and Elon- That's like the darkest moment, one of the darkest moments in his life, probably. I think it was, I could tell you, it was the darkest period of his life, for sure. And he's been very public about how dark that was. And I think, you know, this is why I have great sympathy for the entrepreneurs of the world, like the suffering and the pain. And when he talks about the suffering and the pain that all of these founders have felt, and then we were throwing rocks at them, we were criticizing them as they try to change the world and save humanity. And in Tesla's case, I mean, they weren't, you know, they weren't like delivering pizza. I mean, they were trying to get us off of fossil fuels. Like this was a big, heady mission to literally save the environment, the planet, humanity. And the way they shorted that stock and they attacked him, it was always perplexing to me why any human being who is standing on God's green earth would want to throw rocks at the guy who is trying to stem the dam of global warming that is about to engulf all of us. How dare they? Throw rocks at that guy. There's so many people you could throw rocks at. There's somebody who's making the Juul vaporizer. Throw rocks at that scumbag, no offense. But like whoever's making the Juul things and is selling pina colada flavor to 12 year olds, like throw rocks at them. Somebody's doing something abhorrent, but not E. I mean, and yeah, anyway, that car is up the road here, sitting under a cover with 20,000 miles on it in my garage. And then the roadster number 16 is in the garage next to it. And every day I walk by the two of them and I get a warm feeling in my heart because I know he did it against all odds, against all odds. He pulled it off. And it was that moment, that month in that, I think it was probably December, January, December of 2008, I think. It was just 12 years ago when you think about 13 years ago. It was dark. I mean, it was dark. And they almost had the same thing happen when the Model 3 production in June of two years, three years ago. And I remember him just trying to get the Model 3 out the door and the company almost crashed then. Most of these companies have these kinds of moments. And I think friendship is you get what you give. You get what you give. And if you are there for people, you're gonna feel so good about having done that. And then the reciprocation effect, which you probably know very well, is so great in the world that anytime you're kind to people, you build this incredible bond. And then what are we at the end of the day, Lex, besides a series of memories with the people we love? That's all it is. It's just a series of memories and moments. It's just moments. You ever see Blade Runner? Yes, of course. Do you remember what Rucker Harris says at the end, all of these memories gone, like tears in the rain? I mean, that's our existence. It just all goes away at some point. It's just these drops of rain. Each of those memories, just like one snowflake or one drop of rain, and they're all lost at some point, but they're here now. And that's why we have to be there for each other. That's why I feel like what I do is so important in this world and I get such great meaning out of it, just being a friend, just having these conversations. What you're doing on your podcast, just talking to intelligent people and spreading the word and the gospel of what they're saying and amplifying it, you're inspiring so many people. Every podcast, you get 500,000 people, a million people watch these videos, and there's some kid in Sri Lanka or some little girl in Afghanistan who's gonna stumble upon this on YouTube, and they're gonna change the world in the next century because it's not just about America. Our story's almost over, right? We were the story of the last 200 or 300 years. I hope it keeps going, but there's all these other places in the world, San Paulo and Africa, where people now have access to these videos. And somebody will have this video and go, "'Elon did it.' "'Oh, and that guy Jason was his friend.' "'Oh, and Lex does those interviews with the... "'Oh yeah, I could do it too.'" Your little magical moment of love amidst the suffering with Elon because you've talked about it, it'll have these ripple effects. It's fascinating to think about it. It's so weird. It's to come in new entrepreneurs being born, new, more love being put out there, and more support through these rough times when people are trying to create new things. I mean, that's a beautiful thing. That's a beautiful... I'm glad you think of friendship in this way. I'm deeply grateful that you're loyal every time you invest. In the way you are. Here's the thing, it costs you nothing to make this investment either. The amount of time it takes to be bitter or angry, sitting at home, to be disappointed, you could just channel that same amount of energy into being loyal, loving, kind, and there for people. It just only takes the intention. The water is gonna... Those emotions are gonna flow. Sam would always tell me when I was struggling in my life and I talked to him, he'd say, Jason, your brain is spewing all these ideas. Imagine you're sitting by a river and the river is all your ideas. You are not a slave to any one of these ideas. They're just whipping by, like each of those little waves in the river. You can pick one of those ideas out and look at it and examine it, and either keep it or throw it back in the river and let it go. And I was like, wow, Sam. That was like, of my entire friendship with Sam Harris, that was like the one moment where I was just like, oh my God, all my life I've wondered about all these thoughts in my head. Insecurities, imposter syndrome. I didn't go to MIT. I'm not the smartest guy, but somehow I made a career writing little 50K checks and now three million dollar checks, but whatever, little checks and being a journalist and doing this little podcast, and it's ended up to something. And I'm proud of it. I'm 50 and I'm proud of what I did. And I wake up every morning, I'm retired, I say, I like what I do. I kinda like having the conversation and writing the check and then being on somebody's team. And I got offered to be in these giant mega funds. And they said, Jason, you're in it. You invest in 60 companies a year, 500K at a time, you put $30 million a year to work, come work with us, write one 50 million dollar check, and then you can go to Aspen and Cabo and Coachella and not work. But why are you doing all this work? It's like, well, the 50 million dollar check is like a formality, it's just like being an ATM. The companies are already huge by that time. I really wanna meet the two people with the idea. I wanna meet them in year one. I wanna meet them on day zero. I wanna be the guy who wrote the first, second or third check. I wanna a guy who wrote the 3,000th check, the last check. It's fucking boring. And make that basic human connection and also be there, be with them through the rough times, be with them with that first, I mean, the first early successes, I mean, that's a beautiful- So great, when a founder and that team get product market fit and you just know it's gonna work, oh man, Lex, it's, when Calm would email me and they'd say, we edit, you know, the company's been growing and we're not gonna go out of business, but we added some sleep stuff and then we added this other function and we have a streak now and we grew 10X in the last, you know, three months. And we're good, you know, I was like, oh, that's nice. It's real nice. It's like, it's a nice feeling when you- Well, because so many of them die. We talked about that J curve early. Imagine it's like, it's like all these baby turtles going out to the ocean and the seagulls are ripping them to shreds and then their sharks are eating them. But then like a couple of the turtles make it and they become wise old, 100 year old turtles, you know? And you're like, yep, I remember when you catched and like all of your brothers and sisters were ripped to shreds by the seagulls and you made it into the water and then you made it out to the deep water. Pretty great feeling. I think there's no better way to end it. There it is. Than the talk of the cruelty of life, that suffering that is life and the love amidst the suffering. Jason, I've been a fan of yours for a long time. You're one of the most special people in Silicon Valley. Thanks, Lex. And maybe you'll also call me in one of the rough times. Oh yeah. There will be many. There will be, yeah. You know, there's one expression, nobody gets there alone. Nobody gets there alone. And anybody who thinks that they got there alone is delusional and kidding themselves. And they will at some point wake up and realize, oh shit, there were a lot of people who helped me get here. I need to write a couple of gratitude letters. I got a gratitude letter the other day from a friend of mine who I helped. And it was one of the, you know about these gratitude letters people are writing? It turns out Martin Seligman and was it Authentic Happiness? Anyway, the guy who really studied happiness and joy, turns out one of the greatest amplifiers of joy in your life is to thank somebody for doing something for you. And somebody who I had helped just wrote me a letter. And I got in Christmas and I had the stack of Christmas cards and I hadn't opened them. And it's the second week of January and I was just getting to like the last stack and I opened it up and I almost missed it. This is incredibly heartwarming letter about how meaningful like certain things I had done to help along the way and how he'd always appreciated my counsel. And I was just like, well, this happened 25 years ago and you wrote this letter now. And it just hit me like a ton of bricks. And I was just like, wow, you know, if you're hearing this there's probably 10 people who were really instrumental in your lives, in your lives. Go ahead and call them on the phone, write them an email or even better just write a letter and send it to them and just tell them you're thankful. And let me tell you something, the amplification of joy in your life will go 100X, 100X. When you tell somebody you love them and that you really appreciate them and that what they did for you was magical. So just, and you can look it up, gratitude. Gratitude is like one of these incredible forces. Amen. I'm grateful for being on the pod. I'm grateful. I wasted all this time with you. I love it. Thanks for listening to this conversation with Jason Calacanis and thank you to our sponsors, Brave Browser, Linode Linux Virtual Machines, Four Sigmatic Mushroom Coffee and Rev Speech Detects Service. Click the sponsor links to get a discount to support this podcast. And now let me leave you with some words from the man himself, Jason Calacanis. The number one reason a startup shuts down is not running out of money. The number one reason a startup fails is that the founder gives up. Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.
 The following is a conversation with Jason Kalakannis,
 who's an entrepreneur, investor, author of Angel,
 How to Invest in Technology Startups,
 and as many people may know, he's a fun, brilliant,
 long-time podcast host of This Week in Startups,
 and co-host of the All In podcast with
 Chamath Palahapitiya, David Sachs, and David Friedberg,
 who all happen to be poker buddies
 and self-proclaimed besties.
 The result is always a great listen due to both the love
 and the heated disagreements.
 Quick mention of our sponsors, Brave Browser,
 Linode Linux Virtual Machines, Four Sigmatic Mushroom Coffee,
 and Rev Speech-to-Text Service.
 Click the sponsor links to get a discount
 and to support this podcast.
 As a side note, let me say that I've been learning a lot
 about real-world finance in the past few months.
 To give you a bit of context, on the side,
 I've studied trading from an algorithmic trading perspective
 as a machine learning and a game theory problem
 off and on for a few years in undergrad and grad school.
 I found the distributed, complex system aspect of finance
 and economics in general fascinating.
 But now, I find even more fascinating
 the human side of the whole thing,
 ideas of greed, power, freedom, and truth.
 Wall Street Bets, Robin Hood,
 and the whole beautiful mess around this topic
 allows us to have great conversations about human nature
 and the systems that underlie the rise
 and fall of civilizations.
 If you enjoy this thing, subscribe on YouTube,
 review it on Apple Podcasts, follow on Spotify,
 support it on Patreon,
 connect with me on Twitter at Lex Friedman.
 And now, here's my conversation with Jason Koulakiannis.
 I have a million things to talk to you about,
 but we do happen to be living through
 what I would think of as a historic event
 in terms of its impact,
 in terms of almost philosophically thinking about
 the role of people and how they can fight power
 with this whole Wall Street Bets and GameStop situation.
 I was wondering, you've covered in your
 amazing All In podcast,
 you guys have been having fascinating battles
 over this whole situation.
 I was wondering if you could tell maybe
 from your perspective, as it's unrolling,
 the saga of Wall Street Bets and GameStop,
 what are some interesting insights
 that you have about this whole set of events?
 In full disclosure, I was an angel investor in Robin Hood
 before they launched.
 And when I met the founder, Vlad, and his partner,
 they pitched me at a bar,
 not too far from where we are right now,
 in Palo Alto called Antonio's Nuthouse.
 And my friend, Deo, it's a really good story,
 my friend Deo had asked me to speak
 at his founder's institute,
 which is kind of like an accelerator for people
 who are thinking about starting a company.
 And so I gave a talk and then he said,
 hey, let's go to Antonio's Nuthouse
 and we'll meet Elon for a drink.
 And so Elon met us for a drink there.
 And it's the divest of dive bars.
 Like you'll take a beer.
 I love the image of all of this.
 You hang out with Elon at a crappy bar.
 Yeah, I mean, it is the worst bar in the peninsula.
 Like just garbage on the floor
 and like cheap beer and warm beer.
 And like you'll pick up your pine glass
 and be lipstick on it.
 It's brutal.
 Classy.
 Not your lipstick, you understand,
 somebody else's lipstick.
 And so we're sitting there
 and Vlad walks up with his partner
 and he says, you're Jason Calacanis.
 And I said, tell me about your startup.
 He said, how do you know I have a startup?
 I said, you recognize me.
 And I mean, that's the only way.
 And he goes, is that Elon Musk?
 And I said, yes, Elon, come say hi.
 And he came over and said hi.
 I said, tell me what you do.
 He said, well, I'm a quant.
 I said, what's that?
 And he said, quantitative analysis.
 And I was like, oh yeah, yeah, I know about that.
 That's like you guys make algorithms
 and then try to beat the market, right?
 He's like, yeah.
 I was like, so you're gonna pitch me on a startup
 and you're gonna sell your algorithm to other people.
 And if it was so good,
 why wouldn't you just use it yourself and print money?
 He's like, yeah, yeah, no, no, that's not our business.
 Our business is we're gonna create an app
 to get millennials to trade stocks.
 And he said, hmm, you do realize
 there's no retail investors anymore.
 Like the dot-com crash plus the 2008 financial crisis
 eliminated any individual's belief
 in participating in the stock market.
 And he said, that's the opportunity.
 I said, okay, I like it.
 Tell me more.
 He said, well, we're gonna get these millennials to trade.
 I said, the same ones who live in their mom's basements
 and take Uber and Lyft and are on their parents
 have no money, got screwed and went 250K into debt for school
 and now can't get a job.
 Those people?
 And he's like, yeah.
 I'm like, okay, they have no interest in their future,
 but they're gonna trade stocks.
 He said, yeah, that's the opportunity.
 I was like, how are you gonna make money?
 And he said, well, that's the best part.
 It's gonna be free.
 And I said, so your idea is to get a group of people
 who have no interest in saving for their future
 to trade and your business model is free.
 And he said, yes.
 I said, I'm in.
 Because in almost all cases,
 the crazy outlandish ideas that nobody believes in
 are the ones that have the greatest returns.
 I mean, Uber, I introduced to about 25 investors
 and three of us said yes.
 So, a full 12% of the community who saw that deal
 decided to do it.
 So your sense about this idea being good
 had to do with the fact that this guy was just crazy
 and ambitious and bold thinking,
 or was it that there was something here
 in allowing a much larger magnitude of people
 to be able to be investors?
 Yeah, the way to do really well as an angel investor
 or just in technology or in life
 is to not say what could go wrong,
 but to say what could go right.
 And then to just imagine for a moment,
 if it does work, what would the world look like?
 And so when Elon was investing in Tesla
 and some other guys were running it
 and he was trying to save the company,
 you know, it wasn't, is this gonna work?
 It was almost positively not gonna work.
 It was, and he knew that.
 But if it does work, what does the world look like?
 And so that's really what you're looking for is
 not the chances of success,
 but if it does succeed, what would that look like?
 And you, that's what the world needs more people doing.
 And so when you looked at Robinhood, it was like,
 well, if he does succeed, what would the world look like?
 And now we've seen what it looks like.
 You have a generation who are so financially sophisticated
 that they know how to do puts and calls and shorts
 and research at a level that dominated
 the hedge fund industry.
 So let's pause for a second.
 These traders sitting there on a subreddit
 in a Discord server are able to do analysis and research
 and then act in unison to say,
 we're going to beat in the Robinhood sense,
 you know, this group of sophisticated insiders
 who have more access and more access to capital,
 but we will figure out how to solve this problem.
 And, you know, things, most things don't work.
 It's like the Wikipedia, like,
 there's no way the Wikipedia would ever work.
 Right.
 Except it did.
 Yeah. Right?
 Like you're like, how is this ever gonna work?
 You're not paying anybody,
 but it's built the largest corpus of an encyclopedia ever.
 So I think Robinhood actually succeeded.
 And then what we saw was this system
 and a lot of the systems in our society,
 whether it's the political system,
 the constitution of the United States,
 education, higher education, which you're involved in,
 and then even the financial system,
 we have not stress tested and stress tested it.
 And we don't actually know all the edge cases
 and how it works.
 So Trump was able to just really put this crazy stress test.
 Like, is the democracy going to hold?
 Are we gonna break this 200-some-a-year-old experiment?
 And then we looked at the financial markets
 and it turns out there were more people shorting the stock
 than shares were available.
 I don't know how that's possible.
 And then I'm trying to uncover,
 where can I see a list of people who've shorted the stock?
 And it's like, you can't,
 but we can tell you sort of how many every two weeks
 or maybe twice a week we can create a report.
 Maybe we know.
 I was surprised that nobody knows
 the list of people who were shorted
 and you guys were trying to figure that out.
 Yeah, there's no transparency on a lot of the systems.
 And if you call to try to short a stock,
 it's almost like they'll tell you on the phone,
 let me see, I think I might know a guy
 who has shares to loan out.
 So it's like, am I calling to try to find
 a 73 Mustang Grande in gold?
 You're gonna call around.
 It's like, shouldn't this be on a ledger somewhere
 and be completely transparent?
 So now we're seeing those things.
 And I think the investigations will make it super clear.
 But of course, in a vacuum without information,
 there are so many investors in these startups
 that conflicts can start to appear.
 And then you know how it is with people
 in conspiracy theories, the mind starts to wander.
 And so in some cases, there is actually a conspiracy.
 And then in other cases, people's mind will fill in like,
 oh my God, there's some grand conspiracy here.
 I can tell you Robin Hood's only goal
 is to get more people to trade stocks
 and to democratize it even more.
 And they apparently were on the brink of seizing
 as an entity if they didn't get more money
 to cover all these trades.
 I mean, they were on the brink and they raised
 three and a half billion dollars
 or something like that in a week.
 Yeah, so in some sense, Robin Hood enabled
 this very like the magic of this distributed system
 of Wall Street bets, right?
 You said Wikipedia, which is another,
 which is probably one of my favorite websites
 and one of my favorite examples of like
 a distributed system somehow coming together in a way,
 just like you said at that crappy bar,
 I would have guessed it would never work.
 But if it does work, it changes everything and it did.
 And Robin Hood in that same way, probably enabled
 or was one of the major enablers of Wall Street bets
 of giving power, like empowering young kids to learn
 about how this whole messy financial system works
 and take on the big elite centralized players.
 Yes, and you know, it's very easy.
 When these companies get big,
 one thing that's changed is the footprint
 of these startups and the velocity at which they grow.
 So something like Airbnb is another perfect example
 of something that should really not work in practice,
 but it does.
 Like I'm gonna rent my couch or my extra room to somebody
 like a serial killer, or I'm gonna stay in somebody's house
 like a serial killer's house.
 And you know, it's like, it really sounds scary,
 but it actually works.
 And it has not destroyed the hotel business, it has added.
 So the best startups induce a market to exist.
 If you look at, you know, Uber or Airbnb,
 people replaced their cars
 and Uber was not competing ultimately with taxis.
 They were competing with car ownership,
 public transportation, walking, or just not going out.
 And then you look at Airbnb,
 a lot of people who stay in an Airbnb
 would not be taking a trip to Kyoto,
 if not for the fact that they could get a $75
 beautiful room with great view.
 Beautiful room with great reviews in Kyoto for three weeks.
 It inspires people and it manifests the market
 because the product is so transcendent, right?
 And I think that's one of the things that Robinhood did.
 You can't learn how to do this options trading
 and puts and calls and all this sophistication stuff,
 unless you actually do it.
 It's just too hard to learn except in practice,
 just like poker.
 If you wanna learn how to play poker or guitar
 or tennis or skiing, like you can talk about it,
 you can watch YouTube videos,
 but at a certain point, you gotta get on the mountain.
 At a certain point, you gotta put some chips in the pot
 and it's gonna be painful.
 Like poker is gonna be painful.
 You're gonna lose a lot of money.
 That's why you should play at the small tables first.
 And even in trading, like you look at people
 who are doing this crazy trading in GameStop,
 a company that's worth maybe a couple of billion dollars,
 but certainly about tens of billions of dollars.
 Of course, the people who are throwing their money in last
 are gonna lose it.
 I think everybody knew that.
 And so it was a momentum play
 and they're betting against the hedge funds.
 So I think it's good for people to learn
 and become financially literate
 and just always understand the concept of the risk of ruin.
 The good news is for a young person,
 the risk of ruin might be like they lose $5,000 or something
 and then they have to build their stack back up.
 But that's really the only thing I am concerned about is
 there are people who will play poker or blackjack
 or sports betting or whatever it is and lose control.
 Just like there might be people who try alcohol
 and lose control.
 But we can't build a system based upon limiting
 the average person's behavior based upon somebody
 who can't control their ability to drink
 two glasses of wine instead of 20.
 How does this whole thing end?
 Probably in tears.
 For who?
 Yeah.
 Who's crying?
 Is everybody crying?
 Exactly. Who's crying when?
 So I think there were some of the hedge funds
 that were crying initially.
 That may be some of the Wall Street Bets people
 who bought last would be crying.
 And then eventually there's probably another set
 of hedge funds or even the Wall Street Bets mob
 and that army, some of them might've broke ranks
 and then shorted the stock.
 So nobody knows.
 So everybody has to be aware of what's happening in the game.
 So if Wall Street Bets said,
 hey, let's squeeze these hedge funds
 because they have too much short interest.
 Let's all buy the stock.
 Then some of them might've said,
 okay, it's at two or $300.
 Maybe I'll join the short movement
 now that they've covered.
 And they could have shorted their in like double agents.
 So people have to understand like this stuff is gnarly
 and it's a free for all.
 I mean, it is a literal free for all.
 There's a kind of morality,
 like a big statement that Wall Street Bets made
 in terms of like the elites can't just push us around.
 They can't bully around.
 But at the same time,
 they're also interested in making money, right?
 Yeah.
 Is what's your sense?
 You said that some of the people
 in the Wall Street Bets might've broken off
 and shorted the stock.
 Sure.
 Are they more interested?
 There was an emergent like morality that emerged
 and said like, we're not gonna put up
 with the centralized elites,
 but is that going to continue?
 Are they going to fight the power structures
 that are bad for society?
 Are they going to now like,
 I mean, are they ultimately going to introduce more chaos
 that's going to damage the economy and damage the world?
 Or are they going to continue being the good guys
 and fighting the evils that manipulate the market?
 What's your sense?
 You know, it really feels like the Dark Knight series
 of films where like some people just wanna see
 the world burn.
 Yeah.
 I think there is a contingent of people
 who just literally want to see chaos.
 Yeah.
 Like, you know that contingent on some of these forums
 who just wanna create chaos, right?
 So there's certainly that chaos contingent,
 but I think overall what the arc will show
 is a group of people getting massively educated.
 You see it in crypto as well.
 There was like a three-year period
 where all of these failed entrepreneurs who I knew
 who couldn't build companies were then coming back to me
 after their companies has failed or after they gave up
 or couldn't clear market raising money
 with the venture capital community,
 and they were doing ICOs.
 And I was like, I met you before, right?
 And they're like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
 No, I'm doing an ICO now.
 I'm like, okay, where's your company at?
 And they're like, here's a white paper.
 And I was like, this white paper with spelling errors in it
 that says you're going to destroy Airbnb
 because everybody's apartment's gonna be
 on an immutable ledger.
 Like, wouldn't that be better in a regular database
 that was private and not public?
 Like, why does it need to be on an immutable ledger?
 It can't change.
 I'm like, not changing the database is a feature?
 That does not seem like a good feature.
 And they couldn't explain it.
 They were like, well, just people are interested in ICOs.
 And there was that ICO mania.
 And what it showed was there was a global appetite for risk.
 People want to try new things.
 This is one of the great things about the human spirit.
 It is one of the great things about capitalism.
 And one of the things that concerns me most
 about where we're at in society is the sort of socialism,
 communism, entrepreneurship is bad, technology is bad,
 and polarization of wealth,
 and people getting rich is a bad thing.
 When I grew up, I'm 50 now.
 But when I was a Gen Xer growing up,
 we kind of maybe too much idolized Bill Gates
 and people who were doing interesting things in the world.
 And we thought capitalism was a force for good.
 I still believe capitalism is a force for good
 because when a group of people build a product or service
 that changes the world and it gets globally distributed,
 whether it's Tesla or SpaceX or Google or Airbnb
 or Uber or Robinhood, everybody gets to benefit
 from that product or service having to compete.
 And if you look at the places where there's no competition
 like public education or less established colleges
 and stuff like that, less competition
 for accreditation degrees,
 things tend to get a little weird, don't they?
 And people tend to be protected and that's not good.
 You need competition.
 Does it mean that people shouldn't have global healthcare?
 It doesn't mean that we shouldn't have a safety net,
 but we need to keep capitalism vibrant,
 especially because China has now co-opted capitalism
 and created their own version of capitalism,
 which is communism with capitalism.
 It's like this weird operating system.
 We still wanna keep communism
 so we can take any of your gains at any time,
 but we'd like you to be entrepreneurial.
 And then you have somebody like the founder of Alibaba,
 Jack Ma, who disappears for a couple of weeks.
 Who's that?
 No, I'm just kidding.
 Exactly, it's like, who's Jack Ma?
 I was like, he kind of disappears for a couple of weeks
 and then he comes back and he's really sorry
 about the things he said and then he disappears again.
 We have to be very careful.
 If China wins capitalism,
 this is gonna be an existential threat for humanity.
 The Chinese are no joke.
 I mean, they are seriously focused
 and they are picking the winners.
 It's a very weird system because it is in fact,
 I don't know what you call it.
 Like communism and capitalism is such overloaded terms,
 but they do encourage entrepreneurship,
 but they, and they do a good job of it.
 Oh yes.
 And then they're like the surveillance thing
 and they're controlling things in a way.
 It's weird because it seems to work really well
 for them in the short term.
 Yes, it's definitely got short term benefits.
 So the question is like,
 how that gets distorted and becomes worse and worse,
 which it potentially might be.
 And I think on the entrepreneurial spirit,
 which you have a podcast all centered around
 the entrepreneurial spirit,
 is one of the magical things that makes this country great.
 I don't know if money is deeply tied into that.
 I do get bothered by people treating the word billionaires
 if it's a bad word.
 But in general, like all the hard things,
 all the difficult things we're going through
 in this country, it seems like the way out
 is going to be making the entrepreneur the hero of society,
 of letting that young kid with a big dream
 and the guts to take the big risks
 and build something totally new,
 giving them a chance and whatever that involves.
 I don't think it's about taxes.
 I don't think it's about regulation, all that stuff.
 It's about us and just public discourse saying
 that kid, that guy, that girl, they're bad asses,
 like encourage them to do it.
 We have to have people buy in to the fact
 that they have that opportunity.
 And I think one of the problems in society
 is there's a group of people who actually don't believe
 that they can succeed or they don't believe
 even more perniciously that other people can.
 And that's the group of people that I think
 are highly vocal but a small group of people,
 which are generally people of incredible privilege,
 rich parents, white, city dwellers, liberals.
 They kind of look and say,
 poor people cannot change it a lot.
 And they're battling in their minds to protect poor people.
 But they have this very weird patriarchal
 kind of approach to it, which is they think
 that they're not capable of changing their lot in life.
 And they're like, it's not possible.
 And then once in a while, I'll tweet something where I say,
 it's really incredible that every piece of knowledge
 you could possibly want is now available for free on YouTube.
 And every course from MIT and Harvard and Stanford
 is available on edX or Coursera.
 And all that information is there freely available.
 And you can take the lectures.
 This is amazing.
 And then people will be like,
 yeah, but people don't have access to it.
 I'm like, they do, it's free.
 Here's the link.
 And they're like, yeah, but they don't have internet.
 And I'm like, here's the chart
 of internet penetration in America.
 And they're like, well, poor people don't have internet.
 And I'm like, really?
 Find me any downtrodden person without a smartphone
 with a high-speed connection that capitalism provided
 for $12 a month or $15 a month.
 It's very hard to find that.
 And we have it so well in this country,
 and there's so much opportunity.
 But people don't believe it.
 And that's actually one of the problems.
 See, the average American still watches four or five hours
 of television a day.
 And often I meet people and they're like,
 I need a technical co-founder.
 And I, you know, but all I need is a million dollars.
 And I'm like, okay, well, what is your skill?
 And they don't have a skill.
 And I'm like, well, are you a designer?
 No, are you a product designer?
 Are you a product manager?
 No, are you a developer?
 No, are you a sales executive?
 No, okay, what are you?
 It's like, well, I have an idea.
 Well, as my friend, Sam Harris, I think your friend as well,
 says like, everybody has like a million ideas an hour.
 Like, you don't really get credit for those.
 Even when you're asleep, your idea is spewing ideas.
 Like zero credit for your ideas.
 It's all about execution.
 You have to believe that you yourself can be the core
 of that execution.
 You yourself can build the thing in every,
 no matter what your circumstances are.
 I mean, we could talk about like structural racism
 and all those kinds of things that push things down.
 But from the individual perspective,
 when you just like are coaching or giving advice
 to an individual, you can literally change the world.
 I mean, Wall Street Bets is an indication of that
 in the financial space that you yourself can have,
 can change the world.
 That's why this country is amazing.
 Still the best country in the world, right?
 I mean, it still is amazing the opportunity
 provided to people, all this educational experiences online.
 And the ability, what I tell young people
 who are looking for advice, I say,
 the skill you need to refine
 is the ability to learn new skills.
 Like if you become good at learning a new skill,
 and Tim Ferriss, a friend of mine,
 has really pioneered this.
 Like he can get to 60 or 70% of like the knowledge
 in a skill in some incredibly short period of time.
 Now I'm not saying he's gonna become a virtuoso drummer
 or a great basketball player,
 but Tim and I were on vacation together
 and like a group vacation in Italy
 and there was a basketball court.
 And I said, let's go shoot some hoops.
 I'd never shot before.
 And I was like, okay, come on, I'll teach you.
 And Tim is fabulously uncoordinated.
 People don't know this.
 Like he tried to dribble a basketball and do a layup
 and it looked like he had a blindfold on.
 I mean, you've never seen something less elegant
 than Tim Ferriss doing a layup in basketball.
 And then he watched me do it three or four times
 and I watched him study me.
 And listen, I've been playing basketball in Brooklyn,
 since I was a kid.
 I got a couple of moves and he was just taking notes
 and taking notes and taking notes.
 And by the end of a couple of hours of doing this,
 I could just watch him checking his form
 and figuring it out.
 That's every skill in the world now.
 And what I tell people is like, I'm like,
 did you watch Game of Thrones?
 And they're like, yeah.
 Watch Breaking Bad?
 Like, yeah, I'm like, okay, that's about 400 hours.
 How about you don't watch the next two
 and you put that 400 hours into learning
 how to be a graphic designer, a UX person,
 a developer, whatever it is, and learn how to add skills.
 That's what I did my whole life.
 I was a kid from Brooklyn, went to school at night,
 but I was very quick to get to maybe 50%
 of the knowledge base of graphic design
 or being a writer or being a sales executive,
 whatever it was, a developer even.
 And I was just good enough to not have people
 be able to bullshit me like when I hired them.
 And that was a big unlock.
 When you know enough that people can't snow you,
 that's a really good one.
 And look at yourself.
 You figured out how to set up an entire podcast.
 People don't know this,
 but you don't have a team around you.
 I have a team of like five, six people working on my podcast.
 But see, even knowing enough about to set this up,
 you would then be able to hire a team.
 Correct.
 And you'll be able to call them on their bullshit
 if they're not doing a good job.
 And that's really important.
 And I don't know that much about this whole thing,
 but I know enough to be able to then see
 who knows their stuff or not.
 You're absolutely right.
 And the process of learning how to learn
 is essential there because I did martial arts,
 jiu-jitsu and so on.
 And it's so funny to watch.
 I did take one, yeah.
 You took one, that was awesome.
 It's funny that there's some people
 that do an activity for years,
 because to sort of elaborate on something
 you were saying about hours,
 it's not always the amount of hours,
 it's the quality that you put in.
 Deliberate practice versus just doing some behavior.
 I mean, literally I've been playing chess
 and trying to get that going again
 after watching Queen's Gambit and I got chess.com.
 And I realized I was just playing
 and I'm not getting better.
 And then I was like, oh wait,
 there's a little analysis feature here in chess.com
 where we'll show you your blunders and mistakes.
 And I'm like, oh, I'm spending no time reviewing my losses
 in chess and I just wanna play the next game.
 I should really review these losses
 and figure out what mistakes I made.
 And when I started doing that, I was like,
 oh, I'm getting better.
 So some deliberate practice really works.
 And if you wanna take it all the way,
 Magnus Carlsen, shout out to the guy,
 he has an app, but there's a few other coaching apps
 where you like focus on the end game.
 You focus drilling a particular,
 you basically don't play the game at all.
 You just focus on drilling the different aspects.
 The openings, the end game, the game, yeah.
 And there's different kinds of puzzles.
 So you can really make it into a deliberate practice.
 Not to make this episode sponsored by chess.com,
 but they literally have puzzles.
 So I was like, oh, and it's $100 a year for this product.
 And I just thought to myself, this is capitalism.
 They don't need to charge you $100 an hour for a lesson.
 They can charge you $100 and they've created the ability
 for you to play chess 24 hours a day against opponents
 who are perfectly matched against you
 based on your rating.
 And they analyze every game and they have puzzles
 and they have tutorials and they've got everything else.
 It's like, just think about how much value
 is being provided to society because of capitalism
 and because competition.
 If you want things to get better
 and you wanna step up your game,
 just make it slightly competitive.
 It is one of these things in human existence
 that is so powerful.
 I don't know, did you see the Michael Jordan documentary
 The Last Dance?
 Like half of it, yeah.
 I'm still working through it.
 He's so competitive and petty.
 It's so inspiring that all he cares about
 is just winning to the level of which he literally,
 there's like this running meme, I took that personally.
 And I took that personally.
 I don't know if you've seen the images of him
 sitting, smoking a cigar, looking at like an iPad
 with a video clip and it's like, I took that personally.
 And you can make a super cut of every time
 he took something personally,
 he literally takes everything personally
 to give himself that competitive motivation to win.
 That's capitalism.
 And when people are competing,
 man, look at what Elon did to the space of cars.
 Like they were literally laughing at him
 in the first 10 years, electric cars, ha ha,
 that company will got a business.
 And now every single company is like,
 we're going fully electric by 2035.
 And he kicked their asses so brutally
 that they had no choice, but then to step up their game.
 And that's what we want, right?
 And this virus and this pandemic, I think,
 the great thing that will come out of this horrible
 experience that we've all had is psychologically,
 death, learning, just so many bad things occurred,
 the economy, people losing their jobs.
 But we also got to see the human spirit
 with these mRNA vaccines and just how,
 if we took out some of the regulation
 and people were super motivated,
 we might actually be able to eliminate all pandemics
 from ever happening again.
 And before that, Bill Gates was banging his fist
 and Jeff Skoll was doing the movie Contagion.
 I mean, for two decades, people have been banging their fist.
 We have to be prepared for this.
 And everyone's like, yeah, whatever, YOLO.
 It's not gonna happen.
 And now it's happened.
 And people are like, we need to be able to destroy
 every pandemic and virus before it happens.
 And you're, listen, you know a lot more about science
 than I do, but these mRNA has been around for a while.
 We've just never gotten aggressive about doing it.
 And then you think about challenge trials.
 I don't know if you've been following this,
 but they're doing challenge trials now in the UK this month
 where they're introducing COVID into healthy young patients
 and then giving them the vaccine or, you know.
 And that is against all rules and regulations
 about, you know, do no harm.
 But then you think about it.
 We kind of celebrate people jumping out of planes
 and we got that one guy, Alex Honnold,
 who's climbing up mountains without a rope
 and they give him a North Star, you know, back page ad
 and an endorsement deal.
 And we celebrate that.
 We celebrate people surfing with sharks.
 We celebrate people doing deep welding.
 We pay them extra to go 200 feet underground
 and weld stuff.
 And people do dangerous stuff all day long, astronauts.
 But we won't, soldiers, firefighters,
 but we won't let people get paid to do a challenge trial.
 Yeah, we're weirdly risk averse in certain areas
 that completely don't make any sense.
 It doesn't make, and this is where the world needs it.
 We could have said these thousand people, young people,
 who we know are in all likelihood
 not going to have a bad outcome,
 but there's a possibility.
 There's a possibility.
 But it's very low.
 And it's certainly lower than riding a motorcycle.
 It's lower than riding a motorcycle.
 People ride motorcycles everywhere.
 We have ads for motorcycles.
 We could have just said to those thousand people,
 we'll give you a million dollars each to do this.
 Okay, there's your billion dollars.
 We're printing trillions of dollars of money
 to deal with this.
 If we had just done a thousand people
 for a million dollars each to do a challenge trial
 in March, April, May, when they had the mRNA vaccines ready,
 we could have deployed the vaccines in the summer.
 We would have been done with this.
 We would have been over by now.
 So we get to challenge all of that thinking.
 I think that's what the great pause did.
 It's letting everybody challenge that thinking is,
 why do we have that rule?
 Okay, yeah, we don't want to have people
 give up their organs for money.
 We obviously understand,
 but there's a reasonable discussion about,
 well, maybe there's a level of risk in a global pandemic.
 I mean, we fought the Nazis, right?
 We defeated the Nazis.
 That took a lot of deaths to do that,
 but we had to kill that evil.
 This is another evil which we must fight.
 And it's going to result in,
 it's already resulting in thousands of people dying a day,
 but we could have actually stopped it earlier
 if we just had a reasonable discussion.
 This is why podcasting is, I respect what you do.
 This is why intelligent people are so drawn to podcasts
 because you and I can expand on this
 and not cancel each other over this very suggestion.
 When I make this suggestion that,
 are challenge trials reasonable or not?
 If I were to do that on Twitter,
 they'd be like,
 oh, Calacanis wants to give poor people coronavirus
 in order to save rich people.
 It's like, no, I didn't say that.
 But you and I could have a reasonable discussion
 about are challenge trials something we should consider
 in a acute situation
 where millions of people are going to lose their lives?
 Right, so that's an example of capitalism competition
 working really well.
 There's one of the, to me, sad thing to see
 about coronavirus is that, for example,
 testing at scale should have, it seems obvious.
 I was a little clueless about it,
 because I thought there's no way you can have
 antigen tests at hundreds of millions,
 order hundreds of millions of them and make them cheap.
 But actually, I realized recently
 that they've been available since about May.
 Yeah. You were able to.
 In Korea, in Finland, all over the place.
 And you could have done mass manufacture.
 So there, there's a little bit of a failure
 of capitalism to step up.
 And I don't know if you agree with this,
 but it seems that the blame is to be placed
 at the regulators and the various institutions.
 Crony capitalism in all likelihood
 is what stopped it here in America.
 I mean, I had friends who had imported them
 from other countries, the testing kits.
 And you've probably been to parties
 where people had these kinds of testing kits
 from other countries.
 And we're sitting here and they're just approving them now.
 Really, in February, month 11 of the pandemic in America,
 we're gonna have testing online.
 Really.
 I mean, even if these tests were 80% effective
 and they're 95% effective, mass producing them,
 we should have sent them in every postal,
 anybody with a post office box should have,
 with a mailing address, should have had 10 of them
 put in their mailing address,
 just for free from the government.
 And then everybody would be testing
 and we would have contained it.
 We don't have test and trace here in the United States.
 Well, all the countries that are on the other side of COVID
 did it by having testing, tracing,
 and closing their borders and masks.
 That's the combination that works.
 The problem with the coronavirus is,
 while there's a lot of institutions
 did not behave their best,
 it's also the case that there's a lot of uncertainty.
 So I tend to give a little bit of a pass
 to everybody involved for the uncertainty.
 We were all-
 I give them that until June.
 I wonder how history will remember this whole period.
 I'd love to ask you,
 because you were an early investor in Robinhoods
 and you're in a very nice place
 of being a huge supporter of the Wall Street bets
 kind of distributed power of the people.
 And at the same time, because of you being an investor,
 intellectually giving a chance to Robinhood
 in this kind of chaotic time of conversations,
 to think about like, well, what did they do right?
 What did they do wrong?
 So you have a kind of a balanced view on the whole thing,
 which is really nice.
 We've talked about what Robinhood did right, I think.
 Can you sort of steel man Chamath's arguments
 of what Robinhood did wrong in the last few days?
 Yeah, I mean, communication is always the number one issue
 with these startups, right?
 And you have to get ahead of any problem
 and you have to put all the bad news out immediately.
 And in the case of Robinhood, it seems,
 based on what has been in the papers
 and what Robinhood said publicly,
 is that they had this kind of liquidity crisis, right?
 Where they were being, because of these exchanges telling them
 you have to put up this amount of money in collateral
 and them being pinned at number one in the app store.
 There were so many people trying to buy five shares
 of this stock, five shares of this meme stock,
 that it kind of broke their system.
 And then the people who clear the trades for them,
 they said, you gotta put up a billion dollars,
 two billion dollars, three billion dollars.
 We can't do that overnight.
 And I think that they were in an uncomfortable situation
 of like going on TV and saying, we have a liquidity crisis.
 Like that could be like a run on the bank.
 Everybody then logs in at the same time
 to Robinhood and tries to sell every share they own
 because they're afraid that the whole thing's
 gonna collapse, right?
 So I think there was this kind of like black swan event
 and they probably didn't communicate it all that well.
 At the center of that, this is really interesting.
 Maybe you can comment on the nature of communication.
 Vlad, the CEO, the guy you met at the bar,
 was at the, I think at the center of the communication,
 right?
 So Elon is an example of a guy who also is at the center
 of the communication for his particular set of companies.
 And that, you know, on Twitter,
 it seems to be a really powerful way to communicate.
 And there was something, this is me saying it,
 there was something about Vlad that sounded like
 he's hiding stuff, as opposed to Elon,
 it doesn't sound like he's hiding stuff.
 It could be the nature, the beat,
 the timing of the conversation.
 Same thing with Mark Zuckerberg.
 Mark Zuckerberg, for some reason,
 often sounds like he's hiding something.
 And then there's like Jack Dorsey, as much less so.
 And I don't know what that is about the CEOs
 that makes you trust them and not.
 Might be the point in time,
 like in terms of escape velocity.
 You know, there might be non-disclosures in place
 that we're not aware of,
 where they're not allowed to talk about certain relationships.
 I see.
 And that results, like in Vlad's case,
 and that results in you being like acting weird
 and nervous. Or okay.
 Or nervous.
 Yeah, it could just be the person is nervous, you know?
 So it's really hard to be building one of these companies
 and you're at scale and, you know, oh my Lord,
 the entire thing's coming apart
 and you're the most hated person for that day.
 You know how the rage cycle works?
 And the media is just so crazy
 when they get their hooks into something.
 I saw it happen with Uber.
 We saw it happen with Facebook.
 And even Tesla, you know, there were times when
 people did stupid things with autopilot.
 And it's like, okay, somebody's watching a movie
 and sleeping in their car,
 or leaving the driver's seat
 against all the rules of autopilot.
 And somehow Tesla's responsible for that.
 It's like, we have people who stand on top
 of their motorcycles and drive down the road
 on a motorcycle.
 And we don't blame Yamaha or Harley Davidson
 for some idiot standing on the seat of their motorcycle
 on a highway going 60 miles an hour.
 We just say, that person's an idiot.
 But when new technology comes out,
 we blame the technology, not the person operating it.
 And if you are going to operate,
 we basically vilify it and demonize it.
 I think that is part of it.
 Like when the person at, I remember Airbnb,
 we always thought, what if somebody trashes your apartment?
 And then sure enough, a bunch of meth heads rented
 this poor woman's apartment.
 She left all of her stuff in it.
 And then a bunch of meth heads had a drug party,
 destroyed her apartment, ripped up all our photos
 and went crazy.
 And we knew that day would happen,
 but nobody remembers it now.
 But it was the number one story on every news channel
 because wow, that's an exciting story.
 And I just thought to myself,
 I wonder if there are any parties in hotel rooms
 where the hotel room is being trashed
 and people are doing drugs and crazy things.
 It's like, yes, that's basically every hotel
 in Los Angeles right now is being destroyed
 by some rock band that's throwing a TV out the window.
 Like we expected in a hotel,
 we just didn't expect it in somebody's house with Airbnb.
 And then Airbnb created rules around,
 you can't rent an Airbnb for a party.
 And they learn.
 So I think there's a learning curve with these companies
 and they do get to scale at a level that is unprecedented.
 It used to take decades for a company
 to become an international phenomenon.
 Now it happens in two, three, four years.
 I mean, look at Clubhouse.
 This thing went from being a private beta six months ago
 to being the number one app in Germany and in Japan and here.
 Like just like that, boom.
 And it's because there's an ecosystem
 that has never existed, the app store.
 Then there's payments online.
 And then everybody has a supercomputer in their pocket.
 When we, the thing people got wrong
 about entrepreneurship, technology and business,
 over the last couple of decades was
 just how big the market was
 and then how quickly you could achieve relevancy
 in these markets.
 We thought the market was like the 60 million homes
 with broadband.
 And originally it was like maybe 10 or 20.
 Then it became 60 million.
 Then it was like, okay, well, how many hours
 are you at your desktop computer?
 Well, like probably at our computers for five hours a day,
 10 hours a day at work, three hours a day on our own.
 And then I was like, yeah, nobody's on their desktop
 computer, everybody's on their mobile phone.
 And oh, and by the way, they have it with them.
 So the people with mobile phones are now using
 this high speed device with an app store
 with their credit card in it.
 In the early days of the internet,
 people were scared to put their credit card on the internet.
 That was considered a really dumb thing to do.
 If you put your credit card on the internet,
 you're gonna lose all your money.
 They're gonna hack you or whatever.
 And now it's just amazing to me how quickly
 when a company hits, how quickly it can get
 to a million subscribers or 10 million
 or a billion users, right?
 And there's all these networks, like social networks
 that allow the viral spread of a new startup,
 a new company, a new app to be announced.
 A meme express.
 Anything, an idea, a podcast.
 Single thing, a single meme could change the world.
 Speaking of Clubhouse, I just wanna,
 we're saying so many interesting things,
 but there was a magical moment with Vlad and Elon
 on Clubhouse.
 That was wild.
 Do you have thoughts about that interaction,
 which felt like so many aspects of this whole situation
 feels like totally novel, surreal,
 like it's defining a new era.
 It is, yes.
 Like a billionaire, the richest human on earth
 is interviewing the person at the center
 of one of the most interesting mass scale
 like power battles in finance ever, perhaps.
 And by the way, seven movies have been sold.
 Two weeks, just think about how fast things
 are moving lexically.
 This thing happens.
 Like people had the idea to short the stock six months ago.
 They start doing their research.
 They build an army.
 They execute the trade.
 The system goes down.
 Robinhood raises three and a half billion dollars
 in four days.
 Elon is interviewing them on Clubhouse on Sunday
 after the Wednesday had happened.
 And now here we are, it's 10 days later.
 Doesn't it feel like it's been 10 months?
 Yeah.
 It's been 10 days, Lex.
 It's been 10 days.
 10 days.
 Plus there's like a new president,
 all these things that, and everyone forgot.
 Like what?
 There was an insurrection, by the way,
 we also have that revolution at the Capitol
 where a bunch of crazy people who have guns and body armor,
 and then a bunch of them who are just yoloing in cosplay
 took over the Capitol.
 Well, so, and the other more dramatic thing to me is-
 That was one month ago.
 That was one month and the president of the United States
 got banned from every major social network.
 And which I think I'm still deeply troubled by
 is Parler being removed from AWS.
 That changed the way, that changed a lot of things.
 As somebody who's an aspiring entrepreneur,
 that changed the way I see the world.
 That little, maybe I'm being over dramatic, but-
 No, you're not.
 I think you're paranoid for a reason.
 You're paranoid for a very good reason,
 which is as big as these companies can become,
 they are beholden to the mob.
 And if the mob says,
 hey, this person needs to be canceled,
 they're going to get canceled
 because you can't lose your entire audience.
 You could lose your whole customer base
 and you can lose all your employees.
 I think what's interesting about your fear about Parler
 and AWS taking off is we went from being like
 a social network, which is the software layer.
 And then we went to like the infrastructure layer,
 and they'll even go after like CloudFlare,
 which is a CDN provider, right?
 They're just like a plumbing,
 it's like sort of like the telephone.
 So we're basically holding everybody responsible
 on the whole chain of events here.
 And what that's going to do is,
 I'm not a huge believer in crypto,
 but distributed computing,
 where nobody in decentralized
 and distributed computing platforms and open standards,
 podcasting is an open standard,
 the web is an open standard, FTP was an open standard,
 but Twitter and Facebook are closed.
 And what's going to happen is we will see
 a group of individuals create peer to peer networks
 for social media, where nobody can control it.
 And the same for cloud computing,
 where there's a crypto project where everybody will,
 and I invested in a company that tried to do this
 and got sold and it didn't work out,
 but take your hard drive on your computer at home,
 you give a terabyte of your 10 terabyte drive
 over to the cloud.
 And then everybody else does their terabyte.
 And then all of a sudden you've got this virtual cloud
 and anybody can store stuff on it and it's all encrypted
 and then nobody can stop it.
 And that could be tweets, it could be videos.
 And so this idea that YouTube will be able to tell people,
 to kick people off because they're skeptics of,
 I don't know, the pandemic or the vaccine,
 or they'll make things that are more censorship resistant.
 I think that'll be the reaction to all of this.
 Well, this is my question for you,
 going back to that crappy bar and people pitching you.
 Is there, like with Clubhouse, do you see competitors,
 do you think it's possible that another,
 perhaps more decentralized or another kind of social media
 will emerge that will take on Twitter and Facebook
 and might be able to replace somebody?
 If you look at the whole landscape,
 with Clubhouse and everything else,
 do you think some other company might emerge?
 There'll be 10 versions of Clubhouse.
 We looked at social networking,
 we thought Friendster was it.
 Like Friendster was so good,
 nobody would be able to compete with that,
 it was growing so quickly.
 And then MySpace was a juggernaut
 and they hit a hundred million in revenue
 and a hundred million users.
 And it was like, well, that's game over.
 And then Facebook and LinkedIn and Snapchat and FriendFeed
 and countless others, you know.
 So there's usually 20 people who will win in a category
 and 80% of the category will be owned
 by the top two or three players.
 But will those players change, do you think?
 What's your sense of-
 Oh yeah, for sure.
 I mean, if Facebook hadn't bought Instagram,
 it would be a company in decline right now.
 People would be shorting the stock, right?
 Facebook peaked and then was sort of heading down
 and Instagram saved them and WhatsApp saved them.
 So, you know, that's another kind of weird moment
 in history that they were able to accumulate that much power
 and consolidate that much power.
 Instagram should have never sold to them.
 That should have gone public.
 They had just raised money from Sequoia
 and they had raised $50 million at a $500 million valuation
 and they didn't need to sell.
 And that was a big mistake to sell.
 They should have kept going and they should have
 took on Facebook and if Instagram was a standalone company
 right now, it'd be worth 500 million.
 500 billion, yeah.
 Do you think Facebook might buy Clubhouse as been-
 They'll probably copy it.
 I mean, Zuckerberg has no moral compass
 or ethics or anything.
 I mean, he's a marauder.
 I mean, he basically copied Snapchat seven times.
 Like he did poke and he just kept trying
 and trying and trying.
 And part of the reason why the WhatsApp founders
 and the Instagram founders left is they found Zuckerberg
 so distasteful in terms of his ability to copy.
 What do you think makes a great leader in that sense?
 Because, okay, so when I look at Zuckerberg-
 He's a great executor.
 Is he a great executor?
 But I don't think he's a great leader.
 I was bullish on, I was excited about Facebook
 in the very early days.
 I thought it was an exciting opportunity to connect people
 and stuff started going wrong in certain kinds of ways.
 And again, maybe it's our human nature,
 but I attribute a lot of that to the leadership.
 Absolutely.
 I mean, the guy started it because he was unable
 to ask girls if they were single and on a date.
 I mean, that was his explicit-
 That could be a good motivator.
 That could be a good motivator.
 Well, I mean, it does.
 I mean, the motivation of 18, 19 year old men is,
 yeah, pretty clear.
 He was just trying, he had no game.
 He had no game and he needed to know who was single
 so he could at least have a shot at getting a date.
 It's a little creepy, a little creepy, yeah.
 You know, he, I think, was so obsessed
 with engagement and winning.
 And he's kind of like one of those friends you have
 who's just really good at playing a video game,
 but maybe doesn't see the bigger picture in life.
 And I mean, there's a reason why everybody who worked
 for him hates him and doesn't talk to him anymore
 and then actively derides him.
 Like so many, the people who sold WhatsApp to him
 then backed other projects like Telegram
 and said horrible things about him on the way out.
 These are the people he made billionaires
 and they really don't like him.
 So I think there is something that he does
 that does not breed loyalty,
 but he's very successful in his focus,
 which is growth is all that matters.
 He's a marauder and taking friction out of products
 and processes is the playbook of Silicon Valley
 for the last decade or two.
 So whatever the friction is.
 That's poetry what you're saying right now.
 You're speaking so fast that I almost forget
 that you're dropping bombs,
 but so removing friction,
 and you're saying Facebook is exceptionally good
 at removing friction. He was the best at it.
 I mean, at Uber, they were like,
 we're gonna take out tipping,
 we're gonna take out the need for you
 to take out your credit card and do payment.
 It's just gonna be in your wallet.
 You got picked up, you leave, that's it.
 And I was like, we should have tipping.
 And they're like, it adds a step
 and we're trying to have no steps.
 You put your address in, you click the button
 and you do nothing else.
 And so we've been obsessed here in Silicon Valley
 is how many clicks can we take out of the process?
 I guess Amazon is incredible at that as well.
 Absolutely, one click was the start of it.
 And then you look at Clubhouse as an example,
 you open Clubhouse and you see rooms,
 you click on it, you're listening.
 So in one click, you're listening.
 And then in one click, if you raise your hand
 or you get invited and you say yes, you're speaking.
 So it's two clicks to speak, one click to listen.
 I mean, the only way they could make that app work
 even faster is if you opened it up
 and your microphone was turned on and you, which is
 kind of scary, but that is the next evolution.
 And what happens when you go that fast
 is you get unintended consequences.
 And so this is why Facebook has had more fines
 than any company in the history of Silicon Valley,
 just giant fines for doing stuff like this.
 And one of them was, I don't know if you remember
 when they created groups or if you have a group
 for your podcast, but you can just add people to a group
 without their permission.
 And there was this famous case
 when they first came out with it,
 somebody created a NAMBLA fake group,
 National Man, Love, Boy Association, whatever,
 like Caterpillar Association.
 And they added Zuckerberg, Mike Arrington, myself,
 and like 20 other famous people in Silicon Valley.
 And I was like, and then somebody takes a screenshot of it
 and they're like, you're in NAMBLA?
 And I'm like, no.
 Facebook, last year, and then Zuckerberg's response was,
 well, if your friends put you in that NAMBLA group,
 you should get new friends.
 And it was like, you got put in there too.
 Yeah.
 And then the sad part about it was
 there were a group of young men who were gay
 and who were in college,
 and there was a gay choir in their college,
 and the person who was coordinating their Facebook group
 added them.
 So Zuckerberg, it wasn't enough for Zuckerberg
 to make it so anybody could add anybody to any group
 because it will grow faster,
 let alone you have to confirm
 you want to be added to the group.
 What it also did was posted it on their walls
 to increase engagement.
 And what they inadvertently did was
 they outed a bunch of 18, 19-year-olds in college
 to their families
 because they joined the gay men's choir at some college.
 And this is the kind of way,
 this is where Silicon Valley needs to check itself
 and to do better, is you have to really think,
 well, there is my incentive to grow faster,
 and then there's what's right for society
 and for the individual.
 You gotta think it through.
 Think it through.
 It's sometimes very difficult.
 This is where vision is required
 to anticipate the unintended consequences.
 And it seems like Mark Zuckerberg is not very good at that.
 You've talked to so many great leaders in this world,
 privately and publicly.
 What do you think makes a great leader
 of these tech companies?
 Do you have an example?
 Is Elon to you a great leader?
 He's also a controversial one, right?
 There's a love and hate, a controversial in the sense
 that there is, and I know a lot of people
 who've worked with him, for him,
 that there's also a love-hate relationship.
 The hate comes from the fact
 that they get pushed extremely hard.
 It's a very competitive environment,
 but it's a positive one because there's a vision
 that's underlying.
 It's similar to the Steve Jobs thing.
 It has to do with the,
 back to our Michael Jordan discussion as well,
 that there seems to be the demons involved,
 and tension, and just anxiety, all those kinds of things.
 If you wanna do great things, there will be some suffering.
 And there'll be some pain, and it's not easy
 if you wanna change the world.
 And then some people have this expectation
 that it's going to be easy.
 And what you'll typically find for any great leader
 who's trying to do something super ambitious,
 if you wanna be, if you're a rich guy
 and you start a restaurant,
 and you don't care about making money,
 and people have made restaurants before,
 you could be high fives,
 and everybody could love you, whatever.
 But if you wanna change the world,
 you wanna do something hard driving,
 there's gonna be sacrifice involved.
 And so the problem is, people are looking at something
 that is an Olympic caliber sport,
 or a Navy SEALs-like effort.
 In other words, an effort that requires massive sacrifice.
 We would not look at somebody who wins a gold medal,
 like Michael Phelps, and say,
 oh my God, he had to get up at 4 a.m. every day,
 and he had to swim, and he had to do an ice bath.
 Oh my God, that poor guy, he suffered, he was tortured.
 People were super mean to him,
 they put him in an ice bath.
 It was like, no, he wanted to be the greatest swimmer
 of all time, and he knew what the sacrifice entailed.
 And then what happens in work, in business,
 is that people conflate like,
 oh, well, I went to work to make a living to pay my bills,
 versus Michael Phelps' approach to getting gold medals,
 or Michael Jordan, or pick the person,
 Elon, or Jeff Bezos.
 And when you look at the reviews of a place like Amazon,
 there was this incredible story in the New York Times
 where people were, I don't know if you remember it,
 this is the worst place you could ever work, Amazon.
 And we talked to 200 people, and they all told us,
 they all described for us in the New York Times
 a culture of cutthroatness and brutality
 that has never before been seen.
 And then you see all these people who worked for Bezos
 for 24 years from when they graduated
 with their MBAs until today,
 and they've never left the company,
 and they are ride or die forever.
 And what you're seeing there is,
 there's a mismatch of people going to work
 in an extreme sport, or an extreme endeavor,
 who should not do that.
 There are people who should go out into the rice fields
 and pick rice.
 And then there's another group of people who are samurai
 and who wield a sword and who take on missions
 that are dangerous.
 But if you're a rice picker and that's what you do,
 and you feel safe just getting a couple grains of rice,
 put them in a basket, cleaning it, and then whatever,
 that's valid work, no big deal.
 I'm not deriding it, I am sort of,
 but that is one group,
 and then there's people who are samurai.
 And you cannot conflate the two,
 you cannot compare the two.
 And that's what is happening right now in business.
 Whenever you see these stories about this person
 at this company is like a tyrant,
 and they're so horrible, and they yelled at somebody.
 Like if you're in the field,
 and you're taking the beach at Normandy,
 and it's D-Day, or you gotta take the hill,
 or you gotta whack Osama bin Laden,
 and you're the Navy SEALs, and like a rudder,
 a rotor gets knocked off the back of the Black Hawk.
 Like this is serious shit.
 Like don't do it if you're not serious.
 And if you're not serious about changing the world,
 why would you go work for Bezos?
 Why would you go work for Elon Musk?
 Don't do it, don't go work there.
 This is, let me just sit back and enjoy the beauty of,
 all of that, that's music to my ears,
 but I'm not sure what to do with it,
 because it's conflicting to a lot of the things I hear
 from the way you're supposed to kind of act.
 And I think in order to do great things,
 you have to, I always admired people
 that lose their shit a little bit
 because they're so passionate.
 And apologize and all those kinds of things,
 but there's a tension, there's a drama
 to the creative process when,
 especially in the early startup,
 this is not like the work-life balance idea
 doesn't even apply.
 Work-life balance is ridiculous.
 It's a ridiculous concept.
 The idea that there's work-life balance
 in a startup is ridiculous.
 If you're looking for work-life balance,
 do not go to a startup or any kind of ambitious company.
 There is a series of places you can work in the world
 where you do not need to do anything more
 than what's put in front of you.
 And you just put the round peg in the round hole
 and the square peg in the square hole,
 and you go home.
 And you get your little bits and grains of rice
 and you go heat them up and eat them, that's it.
 And then there's this other thing,
 which is the extreme pursuit of changing the world
 and sacrificing.
 And we have a generation of people,
 multi-generations of people, who are soft.
 They're just soft.
 I mean, what is the big struggle we've had to deal with
 in America in our lifetimes?
 Like 9-11, and we didn't have the Vietnam War,
 and then we had this weird Iraq Wars
 and Middle East Wars that were kind of like
 a small number of people went and we sent drones.
 We have not had to sacrifice.
 Gen Xers, maybe the tail end of boomers
 experienced the Vietnam War, regrettably.
 But we've had a couple of generations now,
 three, I guess, that just haven't had to suffer.
 And so we're soft as Americans, we're soft.
 And then you look at people in China and we're like,
 oh my God, these poor Chinese people
 are living in these tiny cramped apartments.
 Like they were living in essentially lean-tos
 in Northern China with no running water
 or like one spigot of ice cold water
 for the entire village.
 They're thrilled to be joining the middle class,
 even if it's the bottom of the middle class, right?
 They've taken hundreds of millions of people in China
 and moved them into the middle class.
 And we're like, oh my God, these people are suffering.
 It's like, you know, they're up to $4 an hour,
 three or $4 an hour in the factories there.
 And they were just two decades ago at, you know,
 I don't know, it was probably 50 cents an hour,
 something crazy like that.
 And now they've improved the quality of life there so much,
 just like America did 200 years ago or 100 years ago.
 They've improved it so much in China
 that now they're getting outpriced for factories
 from Vietnam, Sri Lanka, Pakistan, India,
 and people are moving, and people in China
 are moving the factories out of China into other countries.
 Yeah.
 Because the Chinese are now outsourcing
 to Vietnam and other countries.
 So this is the way of the world.
 You know, people move up and they get a better lot in life
 for their families.
 And just in America, we've gotten soft
 and there's a generation.
 How do people die in America now?
 Suicide, obesity, heart attacks, anxiety.
 I mean, we're suffering from things
 that if you told people 100 years ago
 that the top ways Americans would die
 would be overeating and suicide, they'd be like, what?
 You're literally killing yourself or eating yourself to death?
 That's what's happening in America?
 And when everybody, not everybody,
 unmasked there's a large number of people
 who have become softer and softer.
 Capitalism creates an environment
 where there's people that still step up amidst that
 with a big dream and challenge the conventions.
 And that human spirit just arrives above that.
 As Elon has an example of that, Jeff Bezos has an example.
 Countless, countless examples.
 And they push the limits of those,
 of human beings that are willing to step up.
 I think about sort of how to create a company
 that amidst all of the softness,
 still creates a revolution.
 It's not, it doesn't seem trivial.
 It seems like how do you build a culture
 that's once healthy, but also unhealthy
 in the way that an Olympic pursuit is.
 It's all top down.
 Everybody just, you asked earlier what leadership was
 and I never answered the question.
 I think, what leaders do is they set the example.
 They set the bar.
 And if you look at someone like Elon,
 we're personal friends for 20 years,
 and he is indefatigable.
 I mean, the guy has a stamina that is just phenomenal.
 He does not get tired.
 He works relentlessly.
 And he sets that standard for the rest of the team.
 And I think Bezos is very sharp and likes to debate stuff
 and is very, and Jobs was just incredible at design
 and figuring out how to bridge that gap.
 So they just, leaders set the standard.
 They set the standard.
 And you know that your time is over as a leader
 when you can't set the standard.
 And that's when you have to pass the baton.
 And Bezos did that.
 And Bezos now is saying, you know what?
 I'm 57.
 I'm the richest guy on the planet, depending on the week.
 And I would like to do some other challenges,
 but I don't want to grind it out at Amazon
 for another 25 years.
 I want to do other things.
 And so he passed the baton.
 And that's the healthy thing to do in that regard.
 I do think there is a time period
 in which you can run that hot.
 And then at a certain point, you have to then change.
 Just like an athlete might go to be a coach, right?
 Or a commentator.
 And so, being an entrepreneur is brutal.
 It's seven days a week, 12 hours a day.
 Anybody who says anything differently
 is kidding themselves.
 You're going to have to sacrifice.
 And there's competition.
 And America has to fight.
 If America does not win capitalism, and China does,
 it is literally the end of the human species.
 It's over for humanity.
 Right now, everything has been going really well
 in terms of the number of people living in poverty
 is plummeting.
 Lifespans have been rising.
 Science is booming.
 The economy is booming.
 All these things are incredible.
 The one thing that's kind of stagnant right now
 is the number of people living in democracy
 versus under authoritarian rule.
 It's flat.
 So when you look at all Steve Pinker's charts
 and he's really excited,
 there's one you're going to see that's flat.
 And I think we peaked with 53 or 54% of people
 on the planet Earth being in a democracy.
 And now it's going below 50.
 And it's because some of the democratic,
 Western countries don't have the population growth
 of some of the communist and socialist countries
 and authoritarian countries.
 And we have to make sure that we win capitalism.
 We must win economically.
 That is the battlefield.
 The battlefield is science, technology, and money,
 and economy, finance.
 That's the battlefield.
 China wins, authoritarians win.
 And at any time, Xi Jinping can pull Jack Ma into a room
 and say, it's time for you to be reeducated.
 Or they can put three or four million people,
 Uighurs, into prison camps and say, you know what?
 This religious thing,
 that's counter to what is productive for us.
 Therefore, we're going to shave your heads
 and we're going to have you literally pick cotton
 in the fields.
 They have Uighurs with no sense of any kind of
 arc of history in the fields picking cottons
 as slaves in what can only be described
 by every humanitarian organization as a concentration camp.
 And every Jewish person I know takes great offense
 when somebody uses the Holocaust as a metaphor,
 except in the case of the Uighurs right now.
 And every Jewish person I've talked to has said to me,
 that is a Holocaust.
 That is millions of people going to genocide
 because of their religious beliefs.
 And I'm an atheist,
 but if people want to believe a certain religion, fine.
 But China's approach is we need to win capitalism so bad,
 we need to win on the global stage so bad,
 we can't have any of this religious stuff going on here.
 That is a distraction from winning and beating America.
 And then in America,
 the people who are going to make us win
 are the entrepreneurs and the scientists
 and the technology and our education system and finance.
 And we're vilifying those things.
 It's pretty dark.
 It's dark, but I still believe that the vilification
 is just in the space of Twitter and the space of ideas.
 I think that's probably a good-
 And entrepreneurs win out in the end.
 They don't listen to that.
 I believe we'll win.
 And they'll build, we'll get the rocks.
 Some of them do actually in their darkest moments,
 I can tell you that they turn off their Twitter accounts
 and they, I've had to sit down with a number of entrepreneurs
 and say, turn off Twitter.
 This is not healthy for you.
 This is not a healthy pursuit
 because don't read the comments.
 If you do, it's like a full contact sport.
 You should just take it as like
 professional wrestling or something,
 but stay focused on building companies
 and advancing the human species
 through science and technology.
 I mean-
 As you're describing, you've hosted this week
 in startups for how many episodes?
 11 years, almost 1200 now.
 1200.
 Yeah.
 So you've talked to some of the great leaders
 in business in general.
 Is there a common thing that you see or-
 Really messed up relationship with their parents.
 Like just find me a great entrepreneur.
 I will show me the trauma.
 Their dad was like, you're not good enough.
 In the teenage years, is that truly, is there something?
 There is definitely something-
 Like hardship at some point in their life kind of thing?
 Yeah, I think so.
 I mean, and there's definitely something
 with immigrant parents that is a bit of a stereotype
 out here, but I've heard from many investors,
 like that's like they're,
 oh, were your parents immigrants?
 And did they beat into you that you have to succeed
 and you feel the need to succeed
 because they suffered to get you to this country?
 Like there is an archetype there that I hear.
 When I started investing, I heard from a lot of people,
 it's like, yeah, you want to find those immigrant founders
 who are coming out of Stanford
 because they had to fight to get there
 and their parents had to fight, right?
 So it's like two huge fights and there's so much at stake
 as opposed to somebody who's fifth generation
 and like had everything handed to them
 and they were legacy and got into schools for free.
 But I think in general,
 the ability to get people to join you on that journey
 is so critical.
 So you have to be charismatic
 and it doesn't mean like you're an extrovert.
 There are introverts who are super charismatic
 and there are soft-spoken people.
 They don't have to be like super vivacious
 or rambunctious people.
 They could be just quiet assassins,
 but you need to be able to get people
 to come on the journey with you.
 You have to be that storyteller
 and you have to have that passion
 and then you have to transfer that enthusiasm
 to investors, the press, to customers,
 to all the stakeholders.
 And if you're enthusiastic about it and you're engaged,
 then it's easier for people to come on that journey.
 And that's why people really start to think about,
 well, what is the purpose of what I'm doing?
 And it sounds corny.
 And when I first heard that, I was like,
 it's kind of corny.
 But then I read this book by,
 I forgot his name, Rick something.
 He wrote The Purpose Driven Church
 and he had spoken at a Ted or something
 and everybody went crazy about it.
 And he's like, a church should have one purpose,
 one single thing they do.
 And like his church,
 which was like one of these mega churches in San Diego,
 just wanted to do education for this specific country.
 And that's all they did.
 And they benchmarked those.
 I think it's very important to have a purpose and a mission,
 not everything, but a specific purpose
 of some kind of joy that you wanna put into the world.
 You wanna solve some kind of big, hard problem.
 And then everybody knows why you're coming to work every day.
 And then for the founder,
 when you dread going to work that day
 and you don't feel like solving that problem anymore,
 that's the tell.
 And a lot of times I meet young founders,
 I'm like, why are you doing this?
 And they're like, well, I was looking for an idea
 and this is the one I came up with
 because I think I'll make a lot of money.
 And it's like, you're gonna quit.
 You're gonna get to month nine or 10 of this
 and you're gonna run out of money
 or like your CTO is gonna quit,
 then your CFO is gonna quit
 and you're gonna lose your biggest customer.
 And you're just gonna say, this is not worth it.
 And if using Bezos or Elon as examples,
 they just needed to see the world change
 in very specific ways and Steve Jobs.
 They needed to see a change
 and it doesn't matter if they made money
 or they were losing or winning,
 they just went to work every day and they had to change it.
 It's almost like they didn't have a choice.
 No choice.
 Elon makes it sound like torture his whole journey,
 but he can't help it.
 Having been a witness to it,
 just as friends for that long,
 I have never seen an entrepreneur suffer more than him.
 And I think that's the biggest thing
 that's happened to him and he's been public about that.
 Like you do not wanna be me.
 He has suffered for those companies.
 He has suffered to get them where they are.
 It has not been easy.
 Can you second analyze Elon in that aspect?
 Like is it just he can't help it?
 He must see the change that he hopes for in the world?
 He's just incredibly hardworking
 and he's very talented as well.
 And I don't think people understand that.
 He actually is a really brilliant engineer.
 At the end of the day, he actually knows what he's doing
 and he asked the right questions.
 I mean, people were kind of aghast
 that he was asking Vlad such good questions.
 And they're like,
 oh my God, Elon's the best journalist on the planet.
 And it was like,
 that's what he does.
 Kind of anybody who knows Elon
 knows he has great questions.
 I mean, I used to have dinner in LA
 and my book agent also was Sam Harris's agent
 and Sam and I met through John Brockman
 and we became friends because we lived near each other
 and I was friends with Elon.
 And then I used to invite them to both dinner in Brentwood
 because one lived in Bel Air, one lived in Santa Monica
 and I lived in Brentwood
 and we would go to this place,
 Popone, this Italian restaurant.
 And every Tuesday for years, we would just,
 the three of us every other Tuesday or so, we'd have dinner
 and I'd sit there and Sam wanted to know about AI
 and Elon's talking about artificial intelligence
 because he's on the board of DeepMind
 and Elon wanted to know about atheism and meditation
 and all this other stuff that Sam was an expert on.
 I got to sit there and like,
 just listen to these two guys talking.
 And they have both piercing intelligences,
 but Elon, he goes straight to the gut.
 Like the questions that no engineer wants to hear
 is like just the basic stuff that,
 it's like, why the hell are you doing it this way
 when the obvious solution is like much easier
 or this or that, like why haven't you tried this?
 He figured things out.
 I mean, he's a problem solver.
 I mean, and that's another thing.
 Like I think the great entrepreneurs can look at a problem
 with very fresh eyes, like almost consistently.
 And Bezos described that as day one thinking, right?
 Like just pretend this is day one every day.
 And then other people use the term first principles,
 but it basically means like when you see a problem,
 pause for a second and really think through
 what is the best possible solution here?
 What are some alternative solutions and get from everybody?
 Like, how do we solve this problem?
 And what people do sometimes they get in a rut
 when they just come to work
 and they just go through their email,
 they do whatever they did the day before,
 they don't think, why are we doing this?
 And is there a better way to do it?
 Now you can get so obsessive about that
 that you can over-engineer stuff
 and you can never actually ship a product.
 So there have to be some pragmatism and some goals
 and some dates associated with that.
 But it is a very cool thing to really think like,
 I wonder if we actually made the batteries ourselves,
 what that would look like,
 or I wonder if we could get to two-day shipping,
 or I wonder if we do same-day shipping.
 Like, you need to have somebody who's willing to say,
 you know what, fuck it, let's set a crazy audacious goal,
 two-day shipping of any product
 anywhere in the United States.
 And once you throw the gauntlet down like that,
 now everybody knows, they're rowing in the right direction,
 two-day shipping, Amazon Prime.
 And that's what people didn't realize about Amazon.
 The business wasn't shipping of those products,
 it was getting you to sign up for Amazon Prime.
 They have hundreds of millions of people
 doing Amazon Prime for 10 bucks a month.
 I think globally it's probably cheaper,
 but that was the driver of that business,
 was all of those people,
 because they would, you're an Amazon Prime subscriber?
 Do you know how much you pay?
 No.
 Exactly.
 It started at $50, and I think they even had like 40, 50,
 $60 was like the testing in the early days,
 and now it's, I think $149, 12, $13 a month.
 If you pay for the year,
 I think it goes down to 10 bucks a month, 120.
 And you're like, wow.
 And it's like, yeah, you're paying $13 a month
 for the privilege of shopping at Amazon.
 But you say it's the greatest thing in the world,
 because anything I need,
 if you forgot a microphone or a cable goes bad
 or a camera goes bad, you get it here within a day or less.
 Yeah.
 It's pretty amazing.
 You've already been dropping bombs,
 incredible advice on startups in general,
 but let me maybe go straight in and ask,
 is there advice for somebody that wants to go big,
 to build the big startup to help them succeed?
 Yeah, it's very similar to the advice I give to investors,
 because now I teach angel investing,
 because there's so many people who want to invest.
 And so I wrote a book on that, Angel,
 and then I do a course called Angel University
 that I teach six times a year.
 And then I have a syndicate called thesyndicate.com
 where I invest in companies.
 There's 6,500 people who are members of that.
 It's the largest syndicate in the world.
 In fact, the first deal we ever did was com.com,
 the meditation app.
 We put $378,000 into it when it was a $5 million product,
 a $5 million company.
 So we bought six or 7% of the company.
 It's now worth 2 billion.
 So you can do the math on that.
 We still own 5%.
 What year was it?
 Six years ago, so probably seven, yeah, maybe 2015, 2014.
 And nobody else would invest in com.
 But Sam Harris was the reason I did,
 because I asked Sam, tell me about meditation.
 And he's explaining it to me.
 And I said, what about this,
 you have to have a mantra, how does it work exactly?
 I know positive, he was like,
 well, you should just go to UCLA
 and talk to Diana Winston.
 And there's this whole project there.
 And I'm like, UCLA does meditation?
 He's like, yeah, there's a mindful institute.
 Like teaching people to be, to teach meditation.
 And they're doing PTSD and I'm doing brain scans.
 And I was like, oh.
 And then I talked to the UCLA people
 and they're like, it's real.
 Yeah, like we taught Phil Jackson
 and Kobe Bryant and Shaquille O'Neal did.
 That's how they won their championships, they meditated.
 And I was like, hmm, if UCLA is doing it,
 Sam says it's cool.
 Well, fuck it, I'll put money into that.
 And that's the second biggest investment
 in my career after Uber.
 And it will in all likelihood become the biggest.
 I mean, it's between Uber, Robinhood and Com.
 And long story short,
 when I'm teaching people to angel invest,
 there's really two things that you cannot, cannot fake.
 One is a product that is built really well.
 So if you look at Com, Robinhood, Uber, Tesla, Amazon,
 these products are transcendent, they're well-constructed,
 there's craftsmanship to them, they're great products.
 So you're saying not fundamentally like the idea
 but the execution of the actual craftsmanship
 for the construction.
 The actual product is amazing.
 Then there's customers.
 And that every business has ultimately a customer.
 And that customer, if they are in fact delighted
 by that product, that's the magic.
 Because you need a team to build the product,
 and then you need customers to use the product.
 And really those three vectors are undeniable.
 Now, you could have great teams that build a bad product,
 doesn't happen too often.
 Or you could have customers who don't like the product,
 but generally speaking, a great team
 will build a great product or a good product and iterate,
 and then eventually delight customers.
 And so most people say the team is the most important,
 but there's a lot of smart people out there.
 And let's assume that you can raise money for your idea,
 or you have money, or you can just convince people
 to do it for free.
 If you make a great product and it connects with users,
 that's the magic.
 You look at Clubhouse, it's actually
 a really well-designed product.
 And that product is connecting with customers.
 And if you were to talk to the customers
 or look at the product,
 you would see a well-constructed product
 and a delighted customer.
 And you can tell the delighted customer
 by just the amount of time they use it.
 That's called engagement.
 It's a fancy word for how much they use it.
 And Snapchat, when that was going around
 and they were trying to raise money,
 they had a fraction of the number of users.
 But the top maybe third were opening the app every hour.
 And nobody had ever seen that before.
 People were using Facebook a couple times a day,
 the top users, but nobody had ever seen people using it
 every day for 100 days in a row, every hour.
 And I was like, what's going on here?
 I was like, oh, the ephemeral messaging,
 and then the streaks.
 They had created these streaks between people
 where every day and then people would be on vacation,
 like I just have to open my streak
 and keep my streak with Lex that we chatted every day going.
 And so they had this like addictive nature to it.
 And that's why Clubhouse was able to garner
 so much investment is the number of hours
 people were using it every month
 was just unbelievably off the charts.
 Some of that is execution,
 but some of it is the weird little magic of the-
 Product market fit.
 Yeah, so there's something, I mean, Clubhouse,
 there's a, it's still a mystery to me
 because I also use Discord voice.
 There's an intimacy to voice.
 Oh, for sure.
 Well, you have people's, yeah, tent.
 It's, well, but like the video gets in the way actually
 in a weird way.
 There's a privacy when you just use voice.
 People are not taking showers now, Lex.
 I mean, we're in a pandemic and people just roll out of bed.
 And the hair thing, nobody's getting haircuts.
 Nobody's hair is good.
 Nobody's getting haircuts.
 People are wearing gym clothes.
 I mean, Zoom is just horrific to be on Zoom
 for five hours a day.
 It is exhausting.
 Well, it does make me wonder what once we emerged
 from the pandemic, whether product market fit,
 how that evolves with Clubhouse
 and all of those kinds of things.
 Yeah, no, Clubhouse is a beneficiary
 of the pandemic for sure.
 When do you think the pandemic,
 when do you think debts will be under,
 let's say 200 a day and we'll have 200 million people
 on the other side of this?
 Because that's kind of what it takes, right?
 You gotta get to 150, 200 million people
 on the other side in America.
 I haven't, you know, I personally stopped
 deeply thinking about this
 because I've been frustrated for so long.
 Ah, you checked out.
 I almost checked out because it psychologically
 allows me to carry on because I thought
 for many months now that testing needs to be done at scale.
 And it still hasn't gotten done.
 It has.
 So we gave up basically on testing.
 We gave up.
 Because we're all sitting there waiting
 for vaccine to come along.
 And the distribution of the vaccine is not, you know,
 it's struggling from the same kind of things
 that the testing is gonna take quite a bit of time.
 So it does, if everything goes great,
 meaning there's not a second strand of the virus
 that's going to create a second major wave,
 that I am cynical enough to think
 that it won't be until mid-summer
 that we start opening back up.
 Yeah, I think it's gonna be May, June.
 I'm a little bit earlier than you.
 I've been tracking it.
 It's like 1.5 million shots in arms a day.
 I think this vaccine's been undersold.
 I mean, it's a miracle not one person
 who was in the trials died, who took it,
 and only one went to the hospital
 and they weren't even put on a ventilator.
 So, and the hospitalizations are plummeting.
 And we're at 10% now in the United States.
 At the pace we're going at 1.5 a day.
 I think when the Johnson & Johnson one comes out next month,
 it'll be 3 million a day, maybe, two and a half.
 And we already have 100 million people
 who've likely had it.
 So I've been doing the math.
 I think we're like 60 days away, February, March.
 Yeah, sometime in April, I think,
 anybody's gonna be able to get a shot.
 And the number of deaths is gonna go below 200 a day.
 And once that happens,
 I think people who have had enough of this,
 they're just gonna go YOLO.
 But see, the crucial piece for me
 that I've been focusing on is the social media aspect
 of how the, it's not just about the reality of deaths.
 It's about the state of the collective intelligence
 of the human species, which is determined
 by our communication on social media.
 So we can be collectively afraid.
 The fear can spread, or it could be YOLO can spread,
 or it could be all different kinds of misinformation.
 And of course, during the election year,
 the politics influences our perception
 of what is true and not.
 But having real rigorous, nuanced conversation
 about this kind of stuff is the way out of this.
 And that's where social media really comes in,
 because social media drives division,
 where people form tribes and so on.
 And it feels like it's honestly a technology problem.
 People say it's a human problem,
 but it just feels like, I believe humans are good,
 technology can enable them to be thoughtful.
 We talked earlier about the magic of Silicon Valley,
 and then maybe going too far
 with the Facebook groups example,
 where you take out all that friction.
 What happened was, we used to have something called R-Cron,
 reverse chronological order.
 That's how you consume to feed.
 So any kind of social feed,
 like Twitter was in reverse chronological order.
 The newest thing was up top,
 and you would just work your way backwards.
 And so it gave this like really fresh feeling.
 And then a guy named Dave Moran
 and the team over at Facebook realized,
 you know, there are some things
 that got a lot of attention two hours ago.
 And the stuff since then has not been as important.
 But if you missed that, there was a really good tweet
 where there was a really good update.
 Like somebody had a baby.
 Can we get the baby one at the top?
 And it was like, well, how would we do that?
 How would we know that that's the important one?
 It's like, well, let's put a like button on it.
 And let's see how many comments there are.
 So if it gets a lot of likes or comments or retweets,
 let's show those first,
 and then we'll kind of mix in the most recent stuff.
 And so when you're on Twitter,
 and then when Facebook did that,
 Facebook became so addicting,
 because Facebook was on,
 what has got the most engagement?
 Put that first.
 So every time you opened up Facebook,
 you get the dopamine hit.
 And then what happens when you see the Bart Mitzvah photo
 or, you know, the enraging story
 about some injustice in the world, you retweet it.
 You write a comment.
 You share it on your wall.
 And thus this addiction to the outrageous,
 the outlandish, the inspiring occurred.
 And it used to be like inspiring stuff,
 puppies or some heartwarming story.
 And then it got dark.
 And then people started to realize,
 if I wanna show up on the top of my friend's feeds,
 if I say something controversial or I'm outraged,
 I get to the top.
 And then that's when outrage culture came in.
 And then that's when cancel culture came in.
 Everybody started to realize,
 if I try to cancel that person for being a racist
 or a sexist or a horrible human being,
 or whatever they did that's wrong,
 I get to the top of the feed.
 And we all collectively started playing
 a very weird video game,
 which is how outraged can we all be?
 And to get to the top of the list.
 And then of course, with Trump, he realized it.
 And he's like, okay, yeah,
 I'm just gonna make fun of a celebrity
 and I get more retweets.
 Okay, I'm gonna make fun of Rosie O'Donnell
 for being overweight or something.
 And he just starts attacking people.
 And people are like, oh my God, what did he say?
 And he copied that from Howard Stern
 because he was in New York
 and he used to be on Howard Stern.
 And Howard Stern took over all the dialogue
 in the 80s and 90s because he was outrageous.
 And then Trump did that.
 And then social media incorporated that
 into the operating system.
 It became the actual device of social media
 was the ding, ding, ding, ding, ding.
 We've got something incredible for you.
 Everybody salivates like Pavlov's dog.
 Oh my God, I can be outraged.
 That's what's gotta be undone.
 And the only way for that to be undone
 is these things can't be billions of people
 where the most outrageous thing
 that happened in the world today,
 in the last five minutes, is now in front of you.
 And that's why people have anxiety, they don't sleep,
 and they doom scroll all night.
 It's because the human mind was not meant to process
 this much suffering, pain, anger.
 And that's why we have all this mental health issues.
 Also, young girls or even adults
 watching other people post their private jets
 and their vacations and YOLO adventures on their Instagram
 to the point at which young people are now faking
 being on private jets to put on their Instagram.
 And creating this crazy FOMO around their Instagrams.
 We wonder why people are unhappy.
 If you think everybody's on a private jet
 going to some Michelin star restaurant
 or whatever the coolest thing in the world is today,
 going to the Grammys, going to whatever,
 Coachella, Burning Man, you're like,
 oh, but I'm home.
 I'm in my house.
 And I'm not at Burning Man.
 Getting inadequate. Exactly.
 So this whole system is creating the wrong set of incentives.
 I tend to believe it's possible
 to still have extremely high engagement
 and create a successful, profitable business
 while encouraging personal growth.
 Like encouraging people to be the best version of themselves.
 I just think we haven't,
 we got the first generation of social networks.
 I think a new generation needs to be built.
 Is that your plan for a business?
 Well, I have a longer term plan in terms of ambition,
 which is I believe in being able to have deep connection
 between human and AI systems, like partners, friends.
 There is a connection to there with social media.
 I do think AI has a strong role to play in representing us,
 in guiding us in how we consume social media.
 So this algorithm that controls the feed for Facebook
 is a somewhat centralized algorithm.
 But instead to give more power to the people,
 individuals to where each one of us have our own algorithm.
 Bring your own algorithm.
 Bring your own algorithm. B-Y-O-A.
 B-Y-O-A, I like it.
 Instead of bringing your own alcohol,
 bring your own algorithm.
 Well, I mean, if you thought about it,
 if we came and said,
 I want, when I look at my Twitter feed,
 I would like to see the people with,
 who are the most helpful in the world,
 generous, kind, intelligent, considered, you know,
 commenting on things that I don't already know about
 because I want to open my worldview.
 That could be a beautiful thing for society.
 And actually Jack was talking about potentially on Twitter,
 letting people bring their own algorithms
 and sort their feeds themselves.
 This would be a wonderful thing.
 I think it's one of the reasons Clubhouse has resonated
 is it's such a diverse group of people
 that I've been able to drop in on conversations
 with people who are nothing like me
 and listen in and hear conversations
 that I wouldn't normally be privy to.
 And I, my, everybody's like, oh, come join as a speaker.
 I want to do a room with you.
 I get asked every day, can we do a room?
 Can we do a room?
 Ask an angel investor, talk about startups.
 And I'm like, my usage of Clubhouse
 is going on my Peloton treadmill,
 putting Clubhouse on, picking a room and just listening.
 It's so delightful for me as a podcaster
 where my job is to talk,
 to sit back and just put in a couple of miles
 and play chess and listen to a Clubhouse discussion
 that is about relationships or some fashion or hip hop
 or whatever it is that I'm not part of.
 I just sit there and I listen and you learn.
 It's like such a delightful thing.
 I always think about these kids who go to college
 and I've always been so jealous of these Ivy League kids.
 They go and they're like, oh, I gotta go to class.
 And I'm like, I would just love to sit there
 and listen to Professor Lex talk.
 You know, like what a privilege to sit there and
 let somebody else drive and talk and listen and learn.
 Yeah, that's the beauty of podcasting.
 But of course, Clubhouse creates a whole nother experience
 where it's conversations is different.
 I think it's gonna be the in-between.
 I like it as a, you release your podcast.
 Like you and I are gonna release this podcast, right?
 And then at some point I'll have you on my pod
 when you launch your startup.
 And then at some point somebody is gonna be like,
 you and I will run it.
 And I ran into you.
 I saw you were on Clubhouse the other night
 and I was busy, but I was almost gonna click on you
 and say, let's start a room together.
 But you and I will start a room together
 with Eric Weinstein or somebody or Sam Harris
 will jump in or Elon and we'll have a different experience
 which would just shoot the shit.
 And it'll act as like a fabric and a little filler
 between the tent pole podcasts, right?
 Like you and Eric, you've done three, I think with Eric.
 Yeah, it was your fourth.
 I haven't released the fourth yet.
 Okay, so I'm a watched all three
 because I really thought you're Yu Wei
 and him like giving you advice is very interesting dynamic.
 I thought it was very interesting dynamic.
 And I find him like a fascinating cat.
 We know everybody in common except we've never met.
 It's very weird because you know,
 you think about the social graph in the real world.
 This is why I think augmented reality is gonna be
 such an amazing product.
 I just have one killer feature I want
 for augmented reality.
 We wear our glasses and when I look at you above your head,
 I see the relationships we have
 and the things we've done together, right?
 So I see, oh, you both know Sam Harris
 or you had Elon on the podcast on this date
 or you and I were both at Burning Man in 2016.
 So like the most meaningful element of our connection
 and network, yeah. Correct.
 And then, cause we would discover that through small talk
 but imagine you're like at a party and you look
 and it just, people glow.
 And you just see a glow around a person
 and like green means you have some financial relationship,
 blue means you have some friendship one
 or yellow means you have friendship one,
 blue means you know nothing about each other.
 You have no connections.
 You're like, wow, these blue people have no connection to.
 These people, that one's glowing red.
 We know seven or more people in common
 and those are the seven people.
 Oh, we should go talk about how we know each other.
 That could, and that sort of happened with Facebook member
 or MySpace where you were like, oh, you know that person,
 friend of a friend, but that's what is gonna be ARs.
 Like this is why I think if Apple figures out AR
 or Snapchat and they just have those glasses,
 forget about VR, it's just nauseating and whatever.
 But AR where you put the glasses on,
 you see the real world, but you augment it.
 Or you make, just like you were saying,
 you make it frictionless, a very low friction
 to make a deep human connection
 because you have all the basic elements there already.
 Now think about the unintended consequences
 of what I just described.
 It could get creepy and weird.
 The privacy thing.
 I mean, people will, here's the thing.
 People, your privacy is an illusion.
 Like all this information is there.
 And then people are more than willing to give up privacy
 in exchange for some value.
 It's a value trade.
 And giving, if my Tesla,
 when I'm driving in the direction of my house
 just starts the navigation and saves me three clicks
 and that friction's gone,
 I'm willing to give Tesla my location and my home address.
 Right?
 I'm not willing to give Zuckerberg anything
 because I don't trust him, but you get the idea.
 I mean, it will be that way with like DNA and other things.
 At some point we'll just be like, yeah, just take my DNA.
 Like I don't, yeah, sure.
 People can look and see that I'm a mental midget
 and my IQ is like lower than,
 I don't want to bring the bell curve up or whatever,
 but you could figure out like,
 if we all put our DNA in a sequence online and be like,
 oh yeah, Lex has got 10 more IQ points than J-Cal.
 And Sam's got 10 more than Lex.
 And all of a sudden people are like
 all bed out of shape about it.
 But what if we did that and they were like,
 and by the way, you also,
 all three of you are going to get Parkinson's
 unless you do X, Y, and Z,
 unless you eat more blueberries or whatever we figure out.
 They're going to accept it pretty quickly.
 Brave new world.
 Brave new world.
 I have to ask you,
 just like you were saying,
 you're one of the world experts in investing in startups.
 Yeah, VC and so on.
 From the perspective of the startup,
 I was always kind of skeptical of raising money.
 It feels like people do it too quickly, too easily,
 but I don't know what the hell I'm talking about.
 When is the,
 when should a startup raise money?
 And from the perspective of the investor,
 when should the investor invest in a startup?
 Like, is there a timing thing here?
 Is there a, what, yeah.
 It's a very important question
 because the venture capital community
 is only going to fund, you know,
 sub 1% of enterprises started in the United States
 every year, like maybe 10 basis points of them,
 like one in a thousand.
 And the reason is it's jet fuel.
 You only want to take that money
 if you really want to build something big
 and you want to build it fast.
 And when you put jet fuel behind a startup,
 as we've seen with other rockets, things can blow up
 and people can die.
 You know, it's not people literally dying,
 but the business can go up and smoke, right?
 Like rockets get blown up all the time at SpaceX
 as part of their ambitious plans.
 And startups, seven out of 10 startups we invest in
 go to zero.
 Now, if you were to start the business
 and only build it off customer revenue
 and use your own money and go nice and slow
 and grow 10% a year,
 the chances of you blowing up the rocket are very low
 because you're riding a bicycle.
 Like, you can go a little faster,
 but the bicycle can only go so fast.
 And once you start taking that money,
 the way venture capital is constructed
 as in the mix of like MIT or Harvard's endowments
 is, you know, we're gonna put some money into safe things
 and then we're gonna have these really binary things
 over here.
 And they probably put 5% in venture capital traditionally.
 It's grown to 20% just as a function
 of how successful it's been.
 So, you know, the Harvard's of the world and MIT
 is probably one five or 10% in venture,
 but it's grown to 25% because, you know,
 companies like Airbnb and Uber have grown so big and Tesla.
 But the goal is in these venture funds,
 we're gonna invest in 30 names
 and one or two of them are gonna return
 three times the capital we've deployed.
 So it's a $300 million fund and there's 30 names
 and they each got 10 million.
 That means one of the 10 million
 is gonna return the fund plus.
 So that means it has to grow 30X and then 60X
 to double the fund.
 And you're really supposed to be doing
 three times cash on cash.
 So that $300 million funds,
 the expectation is in 10 years to return 900 million.
 Triple the person's money as opposed to the stock market,
 which doubles your money in the same period.
 So you're supposed to do 25% annualized returns
 in order to triple the money.
 And maybe I have an outlying chance
 of four or five times the money, which does happen sometimes
 when you have an outlier in your portfolio
 like Uber or Facebook was.
 And what that means is the venture capitalist behavior
 and the game they're playing
 is different than you as the founder.
 You as the founder, you may really care about this
 and it dying really matters to you.
 And then you got a venture capitalist who's like,
 we're betting on 30 names, we need two of them
 to hit it out of the park, maybe three
 and nothing else is meaningful.
 So now you start thinking about the game theory there.
 You're dealing with money that is coming in
 that only cares about you going 100X.
 Yes.
 It's a whole different ball game.
 Whereas if you build off revenue, you don't have to do that.
 And if you look at a company like com.com,
 we invested at 5 million, the next round they did was 250.
 They were so capital efficient
 that they grew from $10,000 a month in revenue
 to millions of dollars a month in revenue
 over those four years since we invested
 and they didn't raise money in between.
 Wow.
 It was unbelievable.
 And I've only seen this happen three or four times.
 So it doesn't happen all this capital efficient meaning
 based on customer revenue alone
 plus some small amount of fundraising, you're able to go.
 How hard is it to do that?
 It takes extreme product market fit.
 You have to have a great price for your product
 that has a great margin.
 Yeah.
 And if you're doing something in hardware,
 it's probably impossible because it's super capital intensive.
 So it's probably gotta be a software business.
 Hardware businesses take a lot more.
 Do venture capitalists get in the way at all of the business
 or is it possible to get out of the way?
 Yeah, if you get young venture capitalists
 who are starting their career,
 they're very nervous and scared
 because they're putting all these bets.
 And then there's a very weird thing that happens.
 The bad news comes first.
 So companies that don't work out
 go out of business immediately.
 So if it's not gonna be com or Robinhood or Uber,
 those take seven, you know you have one of those
 great successes somewhere in your five, six, seven, eight
 as an investor.
 What is the first five years like?
 First five years, you feel like an idiot.
 Cause you, let's say you make these 10 bets.
 In year two, two or three of them come back
 and they don't have product market fit
 and they're out of money.
 Yeah.
 And they say, can we have more money?
 And you say, no, we have to go get it from somebody else
 cause you have to prove that there's still a market for it.
 We may keep our pro rata.
 We may put a little bit in to maintain
 our percentage ownership, but we're not going to give you
 another big chunk of money.
 Yes.
 And that company dies.
 So now you've got 10 million, poof up in smoke,
 boom, 10 million up in smoke.
 So this is called the J curve
 where your performance goes down.
 And then it's only in years four or five and six
 it starts going up.
 And what you're seeing right now is the people
 who started like I did in 2000, you know,
 just a bit 11, 12 years ago in 2009, I started investing.
 We all look like geniuses.
 Why?
 We're at the end of the cycle.
 We invested after when the stock market was on the floor
 after the financial crisis and it's gone straight up since.
 So everybody looked, there's a couple of little blips
 in there, but generally speaking, there hasn't been
 like a major crash with the exception of the pandemic crash
 but that bounced right back.
 And so, you know, it takes a decade to figure out
 if you're good at it.
 And then if the market crashes again, everybody feels
 like an in again, the cycle starts again.
 So you are now as a founder, you are now inserting yourself
 into that casino.
 And now you've got all these other forces pushing
 and pulling and you're growing.
 Let's say your company was growing 50%.
 You feel like, wow, I'm successful.
 I made a million dollars last year.
 Now I'm doing a million and a half.
 And the first thing a VC is gonna say is how do we triple?
 We're growing too slow.
 See, but that's like you said that beautifully
 is a rocket fuel.
 It's in the sense, it's a kind of motivation.
 It's a drive.
 I mean, it's a positive.
 So if you want that, that's like-
 If you want that.
 If you want that, if you want to go to Navy SEAL school,
 you're gonna be in pain
 and they're gonna put that hose in your face
 while you're underwater with your hands tied behind your back
 in the pool and you're gonna be choking
 and they may have to do CPR on you.
 And like every couple of years, tragically,
 somebody dies in Navy SEAL school.
 Yeah.
 Well-
 Does it mean we're getting rid of the Navy SEALs?
 It's like, Rocky, if he dies, he dies.
 I don't know if you know who David Goggins is
 by any chance.
 I do.
 I mean, I don't know him personally, but oh my Lord.
 So I'm running 48 miles together with him in person
 in a month.
 What?
 You're doing an ultra marathon?
 With him and probably other stuff
 because he enjoys just breaking people and making them cry.
 So-
 Oh my God, I'm so jelly.
 So, no, I, well, I offered,
 we agreed a while ago to do a podcast and he's like,
 oh yeah, come, we'll do it this day.
 And then-
 Is he in the Bay area?
 I don't know where the hell he is, but we're doing it.
 And I don't think I'm supposed to say where it is,
 but it's not anywhere close to anywhere of this.
 It's in the middle of nowhere.
 But he seems to be in a bunch of different locations.
 Like he's in Oregon or something like that.
 What does he do for outside of writing books
 and being inspirational?
 Does he actually train people or like-
 No, he's just, he's a full-time insane.
 Like he fights forest fires like for a few months a year
 as a farmer, like unpaid labor.
 Like he, you know, there's a bunch of people
 who are like him, like Navy SEALs and so on
 that kind of make a career out of motivational speak
 and all that kind of stuff.
 He's not interested in any of that.
 He's literally interested in just doing hard shit
 all the time.
 Breaking himself.
 Breaking himself personally.
 He seems like he wants to break himself.
 And that book is amazing.
 And the audio book's amazing when he's talking
 about how fat he was and how he just had to go
 and keep running and his legs are broken
 and he's just super pain and he just goes through it.
 It's really inspiring.
 Inspiring thing also.
 Are you gonna videotape yourself doing this?
 I can't wait to see you get destroyed.
 Yeah.
 This is gonna be so entertaining for the Lex audience.
 Woo.
 The pain.
 But the other inspiring thing is he's happily married.
 Oh, good.
 And there's a partnership there that's, you know,
 everybody finds this attention as a push and pull
 that's beautiful, I think.
 But in speaking of beautiful push and pull,
 how about that transition?
 Yeah, here we go.
 You and Jamat, he's a friend of yours.
 Bestie. We're besties.
 Yeah.
 Yeah, good friend.
 I mean, there's very few people in my life,
 him, Elon, David Sachs, John Brockman,
 very few people have supported me as much as those folks.
 I mean, I'm a huge debt.
 So he's also co-host on the All In podcast.
 We taped episode 21 today.
 Oh, today?
 Yeah.
 Every Friday now.
 They wanna do every Friday.
 They're addicted like me and you are to podcasts.
 So you're going to release it when?
 It's probably released as we're sitting here.
 Okay, beautiful.
 I can't wait.
 Special guest on it.
 We had Draymond Green from the Warriors phone in.
 So we had our first guest.
 Awesome.
 Yeah, so it's really funny
 because he plays poker with us and we're all besties.
 Beautiful.
 So you guys went pretty heated.
 Yes, we did.
 Against each other versus on Robin Hood.
 Yes.
 There's just two things I wanna ask.
 First, on the actual Robin Hood discussion
 and the Wall Street Best discussion,
 can you still man his argument?
 What was the nature of the disagreement?
 Where, what is the little,
 because I don't think it's as big as a space as it came off
 as sounding.
 So. What is the nature of the disagreement?
 He felt that Robin Hood turned off trading
 because the hedge funds told them to
 and that they were bowing down
 to the pressure of the hedge funds.
 That's not true, but in a vacuum of information,
 you know what happens to people's minds,
 conspiracy theories abound.
 And sometimes there is a conspiracy theory
 and sometimes there's just the appearance of impropriety
 or a bunch of related things.
 Like when you look at the Trump situation with Russia,
 like was Trump trying to coordinate with Russia
 or were the Russians just screwing with a bunch of
 like neophyte, idiotic dipshits,
 like Donald Trump Jr. who don't know any better.
 And they don't know that you shouldn't meet with the Russians.
 And if you do meet with the Russians,
 you are probably a useful idiot.
 You probably should tell the FBI.
 They're just a bunch of idiots in all likelihood,
 who knows?
 And there's a vacuum of information.
 And there's a vacuum of information, we don't know.
 And the Russians are trying to compromise everybody.
 So would you call it a conspiracy
 or would you call it an attempted conspiracy?
 There was no conspiracy here.
 What it was was Robin Hood needed to raise
 billions of dollars to say solvent in all likelihood.
 And they weren't allowed to talk about it.
 So they were forced into not talking about it
 in all likelihood and had to come up with that money
 or shut down.
 And then what got me upset with Chamath
 and we had a talk afterwards that people don't know about,
 I'll talk about it here for the first time.
 On Sunday, we had to have a little, we had to air it out.
 Yeah, in the episode after you guys sounded like
 you've had a private, you've made up.
 We had a private discussion, just one-on-one.
 And we said, listen, we love each other, we're besties.
 We've always been there for each other.
 What happened here?
 And what happened there is I'm fiercely loyal to my folks,
 whether it's Chamath or Travis from Uber or Sax or whoever.
 I'm just a loyal guy.
 And I'm always ride or die with my founders.
 If I invest in them, even if they make a mistake
 and Uber made plenty of mistakes,
 I always went on CNBC on my podcast and said,
 hey, we're gonna fix these things.
 I'm in touch with the team.
 Mistakes were made, we're gonna solve them.
 This is a group of people with great intent
 who want to make the world a better place.
 And you know what?
 I was hated for a period of time with Uber.
 I was hated for it last week with Robinhood.
 I got a lot of blowback.
 But I think in both of those cases,
 eventually I was right.
 Uber's doing great stuff in the world.
 Robinhood's doing great stuff in the world.
 And I like to be loyal to my investments and my partners
 to just, I feel like if you invest and you're on the team,
 you have really three choices.
 You can either fight for your team, you can go silent,
 or you can throw your team under the bus.
 And I've watched investors throw the team
 that they invested in that made them a bunch of money
 under the bus, not acceptable to me.
 And being quiet's not acceptable to me.
 So I always ask the founder, do you want me to,
 is it okay if I go out and defend you publicly?
 If they say yes, I do it.
 And then-
 That's beautiful by the way,
 because what else do we have in this world
 if not friendship?
 Loyalty means everything to me.
 I grew up in Brooklyn where if you were not loyal
 and you were not loyal to your crew,
 then you were a Ronin.
 You were out there on your own,
 flailing in the, you know,
 trust me, you do not want to be on your own
 in 1970s, 80s Brooklyn, Manhattan.
 Like you need to have a crew with you.
 I've gotten into, you know,
 you don't want to get into a fight with 10 guys
 and be alone or just be with, you need a crew to survive.
 So I just learned early and my dad who owned a bar
 just drilled into me being loyal.
 And so for whatever reason,
 I'm a bulldog when it comes to loyalty.
 And Shamoff came out and said, you know,
 these guys need to go to jail and there's scumbags
 and da-da-da-da.
 And I'm trying to defend them.
 And I'm in a position where I can't defend them
 because I don't have complete information.
 There is no complete information.
 It's in the heat of the moment.
 And then it becomes the number one story.
 And it's my number three investment.
 And Shamoff has a competing company, SoFi.
 And he's killing my guys.
 And then I started killing his guys.
 And then all of a sudden we're like, wait a second,
 we're best friends and we're swinging our swords
 at each other.
 And we're a group of the seven samurai who fight together.
 When did we turn on each other?
 And then everybody else who's on the pod,
 the two Davids who, you know, both on the spectrum a bit,
 they got a little Asperger's or whatever.
 No offense, Lex.
 Untaken.
 Untaken.
 I'm not saying, you know, you're into AI
 and you might be somewhere.
 It's not a coincidence yet.
 Might not be a coincidence.
 Anyway, we upgraded the two Davids firmware.
 We're gonna upgrade your firmware after this.
 I'll give you, yeah.
 You're on the 1.5.
 You have the three emotions now.
 Or should we add a fourth?
 Do you wanna go with joy?
 I'm on the 2.0 already.
 You're on the 2.0, you got the joy.
 How's it working out for you, the joy chip?
 It's difficult.
 It's difficult, you'll get there.
 Just let it happen, Lex.
 Just let the joy happen.
 So anyway, we just talked about it offline
 and we decided like, listen,
 we didn't pregame that episode
 and I happened to be skiing with my family.
 I had taken the first like vacation
 since this goddamn pandemic started
 and I was having a wonderful time.
 And then this whole thing blows up.
 I'm coming off the mountain,
 just having a great time with my daughter skiing.
 And, you know, and then I'm mixing it up with him.
 And, you know, he had a short fuse about it
 because he was triggered, he told me,
 because he really feels like he's fighting
 to defend, you know, the every man.
 And I was like, that's what my team's doing.
 That's why they named the company Robinhood.
 We're on the same side here.
 And then over time,
 we've started to see the explanation come out.
 And, you know, people who are friends
 are gonna have disagreements.
 In the podcast, it happened to happen very publicly
 and we didn't know it was gonna become
 the number one story in the world.
 If Trump still had his Twitter handle,
 this would not have been a story.
 Trump would have said something about GameStop
 and he would have co-opted the entire conversation.
 So in a way, going back to our censorship discussion,
 I might actually be in favor of Trump being censored
 only because, only because how delightful has it been
 since January 20th that we can all focus
 on something other than him.
 He was exhausting.
 I mean, the amount of cycles he took on our processors.
 He monopolized the conversation.
 And now this is a little bit more of a distributed.
 Yeah, everybody gets a chance
 to be the number one news story.
 Everybody gets a chance to discuss it.
 So on a scale of one to 10, how much do you love Chamath?
 Oh, 11, I mean, I love Chamath.
 I mean, we played cards last night.
 We're besties and I would literally jump
 in front of a bullet for him.
 I mean, what's the lesson in that discussion?
 Cause it was super, I wouldn't, I think the love was felt
 and the respect was felt at all,
 even when you guys are going pretty vicious on each other.
 Is there a lesson to be learned?
 Do you regret any of that conversation?
 I mean, I think he told me that he regretted
 some of the things he said publicly on the podcast.
 Like, listen, I was a little hot.
 I may have said things in the heat of the moment,
 but I don't live with too much regret
 cause I always think about intent.
 As one of the nuance and intent have been totally lost.
 The idea that we could have any of kind
 of a nuanced discussion about things
 seems to have been forgotten.
 And the fact that people don't look at people's intent.
 If you hurt somebody's feelings or you disrespect somebody
 or you do something mean or whatever,
 I always look at the intent, you know?
 And I've had people attack me and I look at the intent
 and I'm like, that person feels bad about themselves.
 Or maybe I said something and I insulted them
 and that's why their blowbacks there.
 So I always try to think what's the intent of the person
 and then almost universally you talk to somebody
 and you find out you ascribe some crazy intent.
 That's not there.
 And they're like, oh yeah, you know what happened?
 I got in a fight with my spouse and I didn't sleep last night
 and I've had a lot of anxiety about my business
 and I just snapped and said something about you.
 And it's like, oh, okay.
 Like I literally had somebody on Twitter this past summer.
 I had said something.
 I was complaining about a New York Times journalist
 and something I thought was wrong.
 And this person was a fan of that journalist.
 And they went, I kid you not, onto my social media account,
 found a picture I'd taken about how blue the sky was one day.
 They reverse image searched the tree line,
 found the tree line on Google image search
 somehow with a reverse image search,
 found an old listing that some broker had listed
 on their like website of my house
 and then posted my home address, the value of my home
 and doxed me on Twitter.
 And I'm like, what is going on here?
 So I call the person and I look them up
 and they work in private equity in Boston.
 And I look and I'm like, this person works in Boston.
 This is July 4th week.
 So, and when I look at the person's LinkedIn,
 we have seven people in common.
 So going back to the AR conversation,
 I'm like, okay, this person literally just doxed me.
 I asked them to take it down.
 They told me they won't take it down.
 And then I look at it.
 So then I DM him back on Instagram, on Twitter.
 And I said, by the way, your boss, Susan,
 and I know seven people in common.
 And these are the seven people.
 Here's a screenshot.
 What is she going to think when I call her on Monday
 and you've doxed me?
 Here's my phone number if you'd like to talk.
 He calls me.
 I said, what's going on?
 Why would you do this?
 He's like, well, I really have pissed off
 about what you said about this person.
 I was like, you understand I've had like two or three
 stalkers, like in anybody who's a high profile like I am,
 like we're medium profile.
 You're going to have weird things happen.
 You literally put my home address.
 You put my family at risk.
 What if I put your home address on my,
 I have 400,000 followers or 300,000 followers.
 You have like 300.
 What if I post your address?
 He said, well, I wish you wouldn't do that.
 I was like, well, I asked you kindly to take my address down.
 And I said, are you married?
 I said, how old are you?
 Are you like 25 or something?
 He's like, no, I'm 42.
 I was like, you're 42 years old.
 I said, are you married?
 Do you have kids?
 He's like, yeah, I just had a baby like six months ago.
 I'm like, you're home with your wife.
 It's July 4th weekend.
 You're doxing Jason Calaghanis
 because you're upset at me
 because I said something about a New York Times writer.
 He's like, yeah, this is the biggest mistake of my life.
 I said, I tell you what, let's forget it ever happened.
 And he wrote me back.
 And he said, I just wanted to thank you
 for how you handled it.
 My wife said I'm a complete fucking moron.
 And he literally said to me,
 my wife says a complete fucking moron.
 And I'm really sorry, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
 And I wrote her back.
 I wrote her back and I said,
 my wife says the same thing to me all the time.
 I walk up to the club.
 It's totally fine.
 But intent, nuance, it matters.
 And the person could be having a bad day
 and they do something stupid they regret.
 And what am I gonna do, cancel the guy?
 Or if I had called his boss,
 he would have been fired immediately.
 And then I got to live with this guy got fired
 and he's got a kid.
 And what is this personal destruction?
 Why are we doing this to each other?
 Life's hard enough.
 Life's hard, right?
 Like just getting through the day is hard.
 Yeah, and that little bit of empathy,
 thinking about the intent of the person
 allows you to then sort of deescalate
 this kind of conversation
 that social media wants to escalate.
 Yes, back to what we were saying.
 If this, in my younger years,
 I would have retweeted the guy's home address
 and my address and would have called his boss
 and tried to get him fired or whatever.
 And it's like, now I'm just like,
 why are we attacking each other?
 Life is so hard.
 I mean, this is what the pandemic,
 I think should make everybody realize is like,
 look at how hard it is.
 Life is hard.
 And then just think about all the people suffering right now
 who are at home, the single mom or dad
 with two or three kids at home, in public school,
 maybe they've been laid off
 and their kids aren't learning
 and they're in a tiny apartment.
 I mean, this has been brutal for a lot of people.
 Not to mention people losing loved ones
 or maybe some people got corona
 and now their lungs are still not right.
 Can I ask you about love?
 Oh, sure.
 I'm feeling it, like we're in hour two here, Lex.
 Yeah, you're feeling it.
 We could become besties.
 We're getting it.
 I feel like we got a bromance going here, Lex.
 I feel it too.
 I don't know if it's Eric Weinstein level,
 but I feel like it's close.
 Yeah, I'm feeling the love.
 But we talked about the,
 there's music to my ears,
 your whole rant on the Olympic nature of a startup.
 Is there a role,
 like what role does love, family, friendship
 play in that brutal pursuit of excellence
 that is building a startup, building a company
 or building, creating anything new in this world?
 Such a great question and totally unprepared for it.
 Because I know nobody would ever ask me about that.
 So I think that's why you've got quite a following
 on your podcast is that you're able to ask these questions.
 And I can tell one story because I don't talk about,
 I try not to talk about relationship with Elon that often
 because he's so famous now.
 I mean, when we met, I used to go out to parties with him
 and people were like, oh my God, you're Jason Kalkus.
 I was like, yeah.
 I'm like, who's your friend?
 I'm like, that's my friend Elon.
 And they'd be like, what, he's doing rocket ships?
 But he's told this story publicly so I can tell it.
 And it would never talk about anything that he hasn't
 already talked about publicly,
 especially since he's so high profile.
 But it was pretty funny moment.
 There was a moment in time when Tesla
 almost went out of business.
 And you've probably heard the story many times,
 but it was during the financial crisis
 and they were running out of money.
 And they said, let's go get a steak.
 And we're in LA, we drove to BOA
 and I had my orange Tesla Roadster
 and he had his P1 or P2, like the red one
 that I think is in space now.
 And we drove to the valet and we had a steak together
 and we're sitting there.
 And I said, I read the story in Gawker or whatever,
 and New York Times, you only got like five weeks
 of money left in Tesla.
 He goes, it's not true.
 I was like, oh, thank God.
 He goes, we have two weeks.
 I was like, oh God.
 I was like, well, what's going on
 with the rocket ship company?
 You know, like, I know you did the one last month
 and don't you have one coming up?
 He's like, yeah, we've got the third one coming up.
 I was like, well, how's that going?
 He said, well, we'd blow that one up.
 There's no more SpaceX.
 I was like, so two weeks of money left in Tesla
 and SpaceX, she blew up the first two rockets,
 she blew up the third SpaceX's over.
 He's like, yeah.
 I was like, I can loan you a couple million dollars.
 I don't have like a ton.
 He's like, it's okay, our friend, beep,
 has loaned me some money.
 And Elon's been super public about this.
 I would never tell the story unless he hadn't been,
 but he was talking, he never said who it was,
 but somebody had loaned him money to keep him afloat.
 He was functionally bankrupt.
 I mean, he had the equity in the companies,
 but the equity was quickly becoming worth zero
 and the financial crisis.
 And he's figuring out if he's gonna go on vacation
 for Christmas or not.
 And he's on the phone trying to, you know,
 save both companies.
 And I said, certainly there must be some good news.
 And he takes out his BlackBerry to date this conversation.
 There are no iPhones.
 Takes out his BlackBerry and he starts swiping
 and he says, don't tell anybody.
 This is what I'm building.
 And he shows me the Model S.
 And nobody knew that he was working on the Model S.
 We knew he was doing the Roadster
 and he was trying to save the company.
 And I looked at it and I was like, that's gorgeous.
 It was the clay models.
 So it was a full-size clay model.
 So there's human being standing around a clay version
 of this tiny little BlackBerry picture.
 I'm scrolling through on the,
 remember that little pad or the ball on the BlackBerry?
 I'm scrolling through it.
 I'm like, this is fucking great.
 And I just said to him, it's like,
 what's the range gonna be?
 I said, well, I think we get 250 miles.
 I was like, 250 miles?
 He's like, yeah, I think it'd be the safest car ever.
 I said, what is it gonna cost?
 He says, I think this could cost eventually 50, $60,000.
 I said, Elon, if you make that car,
 you'll change the goddamn world.
 You have to, this company must survive
 because the Roadster's for like 2,000 people
 in the United States, this car is for every person
 in the United States.
 Every single person in the United States
 will want this car if it's $50,000.
 And maybe some of the people who have 20 or 30,000 cars
 won't be able to afford it, but they'll all want it.
 It's gorgeous.
 And he said, you really think so?
 I said, yeah.
 So I got home and I talked to my wife, Jade,
 and I said, do you have the checkbook?
 She does all the finances and stuff like that,
 pays every bills and whatever.
 And I said, don't tell anybody Elon's making this great car.
 And I wrote two checks for $50,000.
 And I just took out a piece of paper and I wrote,
 E, comma, love the new car, I'll take two.
 And I signed it.
 I kissed the two $50,000 checks, put them in the envelope,
 and I FedExed it to him for Monday delivery.
 And I said to Jade, that $100,000 is going to be gone
 in 48 hours because it will pay for one or two days
 of payroll on Tesla.
 So we just added like, instead of two weeks in row,
 he's got 12 days.
 Yeah.
 And the checks don't cash, but then I read a story
 that he's closed the money, saved the company
 like the next week or two.
 And a couple of months later, the checks get cashed.
 And I'm like, okay.
 Three years later, I get an email,
 your reservation number, it's from Tesla,
 your reservation number is 0-0-0-0-0-0-1.
 And then five seconds later, your reservation number
 is 0-0-0-0-73.
 And I forward the number one to Elon, I said,
 you know, I can't take number one,
 a signature number one, I can't take that, that's yours.
 And he's like, oh, I got five of them.
 And besides, you're the first person who ordered it.
 And I was the first person who had seen it.
 You're gonna give me to be teary-eyed.
 I mean, that's beautiful.
 No, it was a very-
 That's a beautiful moment.
 It was an incredible moment for both of us.
 And we talk about it sometimes, you know,
 those moments in time.
 And when you, to your point about love, and Elon-
 That's like the darkest moment,
 one of the darkest moments in his life, probably.
 I think it was, I could tell you,
 it was the darkest period of his life, for sure.
 And he's been very public about how dark that was.
 And I think, you know, this is why I have great sympathy
 for the entrepreneurs of the world,
 like the suffering and the pain.
 And when he talks about the suffering and the pain
 that all of these founders have felt,
 and then we were throwing rocks at them,
 we were criticizing them as they try to change the world
 and save humanity.
 And in Tesla's case, I mean, they weren't, you know,
 they weren't like delivering pizza.
 I mean, they were trying to get us off of fossil fuels.
 Like this was a big, heady mission
 to literally save the environment, the planet, humanity.
 And the way they shorted that stock and they attacked him,
 it was always perplexing to me why any human being
 who is standing on God's green earth
 would want to throw rocks at the guy
 who is trying to stem the dam of global warming
 that is about to engulf all of us.
 How dare they?
 Throw rocks at that guy.
 There's so many people you could throw rocks at.
 There's somebody who's making the Juul vaporizer.
 Throw rocks at that scumbag, no offense.
 But like whoever's making the Juul things
 and is selling pina colada flavor to 12 year olds,
 like throw rocks at them.
 Somebody's doing something abhorrent, but not E.
 I mean, and yeah, anyway, that car is up the road here,
 sitting under a cover with 20,000 miles on it in my garage.
 And then the roadster number 16 is in the garage next to it.
 And every day I walk by the two of them
 and I get a warm feeling in my heart
 because I know he did it against all odds, against all odds.
 He pulled it off.
 And it was that moment, that month in that,
 I think it was probably December, January,
 December of 2008, I think.
 It was just 12 years ago when you think about 13 years ago.
 It was dark.
 I mean, it was dark.
 And they almost had the same thing happen
 when the Model 3 production in June of two years,
 three years ago.
 And I remember him just trying to get the Model 3
 out the door and the company almost crashed then.
 Most of these companies have these kinds of moments.
 And I think friendship is you get what you give.
 You get what you give.
 And if you are there for people,
 you're gonna feel so good about having done that.
 And then the reciprocation effect,
 which you probably know very well,
 is so great in the world that anytime you're kind to people,
 you build this incredible bond.
 And then what are we at the end of the day, Lex,
 besides a series of memories with the people we love?
 That's all it is.
 It's just a series of memories and moments.
 It's just moments.
 You ever see Blade Runner?
 Yes, of course.
 Do you remember what Rucker Harris says at the end,
 all of these memories gone, like tears in the rain?
 I mean, that's our existence.
 It just all goes away at some point.
 It's just these drops of rain.
 Each of those memories, just like one snowflake
 or one drop of rain, and they're all lost at some point,
 but they're here now.
 And that's why we have to be there for each other.
 That's why I feel like what I do is so important
 in this world and I get such great meaning out of it,
 just being a friend, just having these conversations.
 What you're doing on your podcast,
 just talking to intelligent people
 and spreading the word and the gospel of what they're saying
 and amplifying it, you're inspiring so many people.
 Every podcast, you get 500,000 people,
 a million people watch these videos,
 and there's some kid in Sri Lanka
 or some little girl in Afghanistan
 who's gonna stumble upon this on YouTube,
 and they're gonna change the world in the next century
 because it's not just about America.
 Our story's almost over, right?
 We were the story of the last 200 or 300 years.
 I hope it keeps going,
 but there's all these other places in the world,
 San Paulo and Africa,
 where people now have access to these videos.
 And somebody will have this video and go,
 "'Elon did it.'
 "'Oh, and that guy Jason was his friend.'
 "'Oh, and Lex does those interviews with the...
 "'Oh yeah, I could do it too.'"
 Your little magical moment of love
 amidst the suffering with Elon
 because you've talked about it,
 it'll have these ripple effects.
 It's fascinating to think about it.
 It's so weird.
 It's to come in new entrepreneurs being born,
 new, more love being put out there,
 and more support through these rough times
 when people are trying to create new things.
 I mean, that's a beautiful thing.
 That's a beautiful...
 I'm glad you think of friendship in this way.
 I'm deeply grateful that you're loyal
 every time you invest. In the way you are.
 Here's the thing,
 it costs you nothing to make this investment either.
 The amount of time it takes to be bitter or angry,
 sitting at home, to be disappointed,
 you could just channel that same amount of energy
 into being loyal, loving, kind, and there for people.
 It just only takes the intention.
 The water is gonna...
 Those emotions are gonna flow.
 Sam would always tell me when I was struggling in my life
 and I talked to him, he'd say,
 Jason, your brain is spewing all these ideas.
 Imagine you're sitting by a river
 and the river is all your ideas.
 You are not a slave to any one of these ideas.
 They're just whipping by,
 like each of those little waves in the river.
 You can pick one of those ideas out
 and look at it and examine it,
 and either keep it or throw it back in the river
 and let it go.
 And I was like, wow, Sam.
 That was like, of my entire friendship with Sam Harris,
 that was like the one moment where I was just like,
 oh my God, all my life I've wondered
 about all these thoughts in my head.
 Insecurities, imposter syndrome.
 I didn't go to MIT.
 I'm not the smartest guy,
 but somehow I made a career writing little 50K checks
 and now three million dollar checks,
 but whatever, little checks and being a journalist
 and doing this little podcast,
 and it's ended up to something.
 And I'm proud of it.
 I'm 50 and I'm proud of what I did.
 And I wake up every morning, I'm retired,
 I say, I like what I do.
 I kinda like having the conversation and writing the check
 and then being on somebody's team.
 And I got offered to be in these giant mega funds.
 And they said, Jason, you're in it.
 You invest in 60 companies a year, 500K at a time,
 you put $30 million a year to work, come work with us,
 write one 50 million dollar check,
 and then you can go to Aspen and Cabo and Coachella
 and not work.
 But why are you doing all this work?
 It's like, well, the 50 million dollar check
 is like a formality, it's just like being an ATM.
 The companies are already huge by that time.
 I really wanna meet the two people with the idea.
 I wanna meet them in year one.
 I wanna meet them on day zero.
 I wanna be the guy who wrote the first,
 second or third check.
 I wanna a guy who wrote the 3,000th check, the last check.
 It's fucking boring.
 And make that basic human connection
 and also be there, be with them through the rough times,
 be with them with that first,
 I mean, the first early successes,
 I mean, that's a beautiful-
 So great, when a founder and that team
 get product market fit and you just know it's gonna work,
 oh man, Lex, it's, when Calm would email me
 and they'd say, we edit, you know,
 the company's been growing
 and we're not gonna go out of business,
 but we added some sleep stuff
 and then we added this other function
 and we have a streak now and we grew 10X
 in the last, you know, three months.
 And we're good, you know, I was like, oh, that's nice.
 It's real nice.
 It's like, it's a nice feeling when you-
 Well, because so many of them die.
 We talked about that J curve early.
 Imagine it's like, it's like all these baby turtles
 going out to the ocean and the seagulls
 are ripping them to shreds
 and then their sharks are eating them.
 But then like a couple of the turtles make it
 and they become wise old, 100 year old turtles, you know?
 And you're like, yep, I remember when you catched
 and like all of your brothers and sisters
 were ripped to shreds by the seagulls
 and you made it into the water
 and then you made it out to the deep water.
 Pretty great feeling.
 I think there's no better way to end it.
 There it is.
 Than the talk of the cruelty of life,
 that suffering that is life
 and the love amidst the suffering.
 Jason, I've been a fan of yours for a long time.
 You're one of the most special people in Silicon Valley.
 Thanks, Lex.
 And maybe you'll also call me in one of the rough times.
 Oh yeah.
 There will be many.
 There will be, yeah.
 You know, there's one expression,
 nobody gets there alone.
 Nobody gets there alone.
 And anybody who thinks that they got there alone
 is delusional and kidding themselves.
 And they will at some point wake up and realize,
 oh shit, there were a lot of people who helped me get here.
 I need to write a couple of gratitude letters.
 I got a gratitude letter the other day
 from a friend of mine who I helped.
 And it was one of the,
 you know about these gratitude letters people are writing?
 It turns out Martin Seligman
 and was it Authentic Happiness?
 Anyway, the guy who really studied happiness and joy,
 turns out one of the greatest amplifiers of joy
 in your life is to thank somebody
 for doing something for you.
 And somebody who I had helped just wrote me a letter.
 And I got in Christmas
 and I had the stack of Christmas cards
 and I hadn't opened them.
 And it's the second week of January
 and I was just getting to like the last stack
 and I opened it up and I almost missed it.
 This is incredibly heartwarming letter about how meaningful
 like certain things I had done to help along the way
 and how he'd always appreciated my counsel.
 And I was just like, well, this happened 25 years ago
 and you wrote this letter now.
 And it just hit me like a ton of bricks.
 And I was just like, wow, you know, if you're hearing this
 there's probably 10 people who were really instrumental
 in your lives, in your lives.
 Go ahead and call them on the phone,
 write them an email or even better
 just write a letter and send it to them
 and just tell them you're thankful.
 And let me tell you something,
 the amplification of joy in your life will go 100X, 100X.
 When you tell somebody you love them
 and that you really appreciate them
 and that what they did for you was magical.
 So just, and you can look it up, gratitude.
 Gratitude is like one of these incredible forces.
 Amen.
 I'm grateful for being on the pod.
 I'm grateful.
 I wasted all this time with you.
 I love it.
 Thanks for listening to this conversation
 with Jason Calacanis and thank you to our sponsors,
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 and Rev Speech Detects Service.
 Click the sponsor links to get a discount
 to support this podcast.
 And now let me leave you with some words
 from the man himself, Jason Calacanis.
 The number one reason a startup shuts down
 is not running out of money.
 The number one reason a startup fails
 is that the founder gives up.
 Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.