Georges St-Pierre: The Science of Fighting | Lex Fridman Podcast #179
agi ai ai podcast artificial intelligence artificial intelligence podcast georges st-pierre lex ai lex fridman lex jre lex mit lex podcast mit ai
Georges St-Pierre is a martial artist. Please support this podcast by checking out our sponsors:
- Allform: https://allform.com/lex to get 20% off
- ExpressVPN: https://expressvpn.com/lexpod and use code LexPod to get 3 months free
- Blinkist: https://blinkist.com/lex and use code LEX to get 25% off premium
- Theragun: https://theragun.com/lex to get 30 day trial
- The Information: https://theinformation.com/lex to get 75% off first month

EPISODE LINKS:
GSP's Twitter: https://twitter.com/GeorgesStPierre
GSP's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/georgesstpierre/
GSP's Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/georgesstpierre
GSP's Website: https://www.gspofficial.com

PODCAST INFO:
Podcast website: https://lexfridman.com/podcast
Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/2lwqZIr
Spotify: https://spoti.fi/2nEwCF8
RSS: https://lexfridman.com/feed/podcast/
Full episodes playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrAXtmErZgOdP_8GztsuKi9nrraNbKKp4
Clips playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrAXtmErZgOeciFP3CBCIEElOJeitOr41

OUTLINE:
0:00 - Introduction
1:29 - Love of winning
4:21 - Suffering
5:23 - Fasting
15:22 - Carnivore
21:50 - Fear
29:22 - Strategy
32:32 - Mind games
36:14 - Mental games
41:21 - Science of fighting
1:05:00 - GOAT
1:08:42 - A fight vs Khabib
1:18:23 - Free will
1:22:10 - Consciousness
1:24:25 - AI
1:34:33 - Aliens
1:45:42 - Dreams
1:51:15 - Father
1:56:18 - Life and love
2:10:27 - Advice for young people
2:12:48 - How to learn
2:16:15 - Bruce Lee
2:19:24 - Tie choke
2:26:09 - Best martial art for self-defense
2:30:48 - Meaning of life

SOCIAL:
- Twitter: https://twitter.com/lexfridman
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lexfridman
- Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/lexfridman
- Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lexfridman
- Medium: https://medium.com/@lexfridman
- Reddit: https://reddit.com/r/lexfridman
- Support on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/lexfridman
 The following is a conversation with George St. Pierre, considered by many to be the greatest fighter in the history of UFC and MMA, but even more than that, one of the greatest martial artists ever. Quick mention of our sponsors, Allform, ExpressVPN, Blinkist, Theragun, and TheInformation. Check them out in the description to support this podcast. As a side note, let me say that getting the chance to hang out with George, talk to him on the podcast, record a quick self-defense video that I'll release soon, all while both of us wearing suits, was one of the most memorable days of my life. In setting all this up, I talked to Joe Rogan, and originally we couldn't schedule a chat with him and George on the JRE, which allowed me to pretend for a brief time that George came down to Austin just to see me. Who the hell am I? In truth, him and Joe probably conspired to make me feel special, but that's the point. It's inspiring to see George and Joe, who are at the top of their field, treat others as equals, as human beings, no matter who they are, even silly Russians in a suit. Meeting George was an honor for me beyond words. This is the Lex Friedman Podcast, and here's my conversation with my long time martial arts hero, and now my friend, Mr. George St. Pierre. In your fighting career, were you more motivated by the love of winning, or the fear and hatred of losing? I like to win better than I hate to lose, because if it would not have been the case, I would never have fought in the first place, because I don't like to fight at all. But you talked about the anxiety, the fear, the experience leading up to a fight. So to you, ultimately, the reason to go through that difficult process is because it feels damn good to have your hand raised? There is that. There is also the fact that martial art had been introduced when I was very young, and it's probably the best thing I can do in my life. Fighting, that's what I do best. Also, it provides me of freedom, of access of things that most of people do not have, but all that as a price. And a lot of money, I made a lot of money, of course, with it. I was maybe predisposed with certain abilities. I met incredible mentors throughout my life. I worked really hard, and of course, I had a lot of chances. The stars were all aligned. And in order to keep those advantages of freedom, money, and glory, and access of things that most people don't have, and have this dream life that I have, I had to sacrifice myself and fight in order to keep it. It's very hard to understand, because I also believe most fighters are not like me. A lot of guys, because I corner a lot of guys, and it seems to me that they love their job. They enjoyed to go fight in a cage. I love to train. I love the science of fighting, the sport, to be in good shape, the confidence that training in mixed martial art gives me. However, I do not like the feeling of uncertainty, the stress that I have, not knowing if I will be badly injured, or humiliated, or winning the fight. It's, to me, unbearable, and that's what takes the most out of me. More than brain damage, more than anything, that's what takes the most out of me. But the thing you get from it is the freedom that you get because of the money, but because of the celebrity, because of everything that comes with it. So you can be the best version of yourself because of fighting. But at the same time, you've said that, quote, I don't believe there's pleasure in life. I believe there's only a relief from pain. We have to suffer to be on top. So isn't there something to just the suffering in itself, just doing really difficult shit, just to get to the top? To explain that, and so people can relate to it because not everybody's a fighter. I think the best example I can give is let's say you haven't eaten for a long time, and you're craving, right? So you're suffering. And then when it's time to eat, finally, you're about to eat your favorite dish. It's gonna taste so much better. So that's why I believe there is always some sort of sacrifice before the pleasure. And the more sacrifice you do, like they say in fighting, the bigger the risk, bigger is the reward. And I feel that's how it is for me. Yeah, I feel that with, I've started fasting a little bit in the past couple of years, and there's nothing as amazing as a delicious meal or anything, actually anything, any food when you haven't eaten for several days. It's kind of incredible. And it's not incredible in this simple way of finally I get to eat. You get to truly experience the beauty of what it is to be alive. Like that little piece of food, you see all the flavors, you feel just the experience of it is ultimately of gratitude of how awesome it is to be alive. But when you eat many times a day and you're pigging out and you don't get to experience that, and it's fascinating. It's really like fasting is one of the most accessible things for people, I think, to experience that kind of pairing of hardship to pleasure. I agree. And in my case, it changed my life on a good way. I cannot recommend it to people because everybody is different. But to fight Michael Bisping, my last fight was against the champion in the heavier weight class that I used to compete at. So I thought that if I would gain weight, it would increase my performance. And I struggled a lot to gain weight. I gained a lot about eight to 10 pounds. Normally I walk around 185 pounds. And for that fight, I was walking around 195. However, I forced myself to eat like six times a day. I was on a very strict diet. And it didn't feel right to me because I feel like I was carrying, a little bit like I was carrying a bag on my shoulder. And I think it was a bad idea for me because when I did the weigh-in and I went on a scale at 185, I couldn't go back to my initial weight that was 195 that I worked so hard for several months to get there. So I was 190 pounds, but I couldn't get back. And the morning of the fight, I got sick. I had like, we didn't know what it was in the beginning because in order to know, to find out what it was, I needed to do what they call a colonoscopy. They put a camera inside of you and to do that, they give you something that makes that empty you. And I was trying to gain weight, not to lose weight. So I told myself, I'm gonna wait after the fight, whatever it is, because it was pretty bad. It was blood and I didn't know what I was. I was very concerned. I thought I had maybe cancer. I was freaking out. So I said, I'm gonna do that fight. And then after right away, I'm gonna make a checkup. So I did the fight, everything went well. I won the fight. I went back home. I did a colonoscopy and I got diagnosed with ulcer colitis. Then I got on very severe medication to get better. And I'm not a big fan of medication. I always trying to look for more natural way to get better. And I found out about fasting and it really changed my life. I met Dr. Jason Fong, was one of the world authority of fasting. He treat diabetes patient with fasting. And he gave me a program of fasting and it really changed my life. And right away, what I did is I went in a CAT scan to see the difference because it was right after my fight with Michael Bisping and I did the CAT scan. So I had my muscle mass, bone density, fat percentage, water retention. It's pretty amazing. It can show you which harm has more muscle than the other. It's very precise. And I did it like two months after. So I started doing time restricted eating 16, eight, but right away when I started, I did three days water fast. And the Dr. Jason Fong says because I like to train during those days, I consume Himalayan salt to make sure, because when you sweat, there's a lot of minerals to make sure you don't depleted your mineral. And when I compared the two results in the CAT scan, I found out my biggest concern was to lose muscle mass. I found out that I did not lose muscle mass instead of losing it, it increased a little bit. Even though my weight on the scale was lighter, I kept the same muscle mass even increases a little bit. My bone density increases a little bit. My water retention is the biggest thing that decrease. So my inflammation and my fat percentage. So basically by looking at the data, I found out that by eating so much, trying to gain weight to fight my cold, I only increases my water retention, which is not good because it's like dead weight and inflammation on you. So what was the actual process of fasting? You said 16, eight, time restricted, so intermittent fasting, but you also mentioned the three day water fast. What did that feel like? And you also said training during the three day. How did that feel? Or can you give me some details of this is fascinating? So I do three days water fast, four times a year. Nice, beautiful. For me, I do it, everybody is different, but for me, I do it after New Year's because during the holidays, that's when I eat bad foods and I drink. I see it more like a cleansing, you know, like a detox, so to speak. Mental too, like psychological. Yes, I do it after the New Year's, right before the summer, cut for the beach. Yeah, yeah, yeah. After the summer because of the summer, I've been partying a little bit, sometimes let myself go and right before the holidays. And I've tried the doctor, Dr. Fong, he says to me, said, George, everybody's different because I'm a very active person and everybody has a different genetic. So for me, I feel that three days is the sweet spot because I still train during those three days. The first two days, I don't change nothing. I train on my regular schedule. However, on the third day, I modify a little bit. I do something more easy and that's how I do it. And I've tried before because when I say three days is my sweet spot, I've tried to go up to five days. But the problems is after my third days, I found out that I had a big problem sleeping. I get into a hyperactive mode. They call that the untargeted mode. Like your brain, I mean, it's amazing. Your creativity is at its peak, but you cannot sleep very well. And sleeping, for me, I think it's very important. So that's why I do three days. For me, it's my sweet spot. That's interesting. You're right. It's the four or five days when you start. See, sleep is not important for me. So the creativity is really important. So it's very interesting the places your mind goes after a few days. You're right. But I mean, what does it do to your mind? So you mentioned your body likes it. In terms of training, does it, do you find that it helps you focus and think? I mean, you're one of the great strategic thinkers in terms of martial arts. Does it help with learning? Does it help with thinking? Does it help with strategizing and all that? Well, unfortunately, I got into fasting after I retired. I wish I would have, I really wish people asked me, would you have done it during the time that you competed? And the answer is yes. I think we live in a society that we're bombarded by publicity. Oh, buy this, eat protein, this, that. And fasting, nobody makes money with it because there's nothing to sell, you know? I think that's why a lot of people have not heard about it. And even for myself, if someone would have talked to me about fast, the benefits of fasting when I was training, before I got sick, I would probably have ignored him because I'm not, you know, it was, it's hard to believe. It sounds ridiculous. Don't eat. It sounds, yes. It's gonna help your mind and you're going to gain muscle potentially. Exactly. And perhaps people have talked to me about it, but I kind of, it went in one of my hair and got out from the other side, you know? But it really changed my life. And I was diagnosed with ulcerative colitis and it helps me get rid of all my symptoms. What I do is I know a lot of people have ulcerative colitis and for me, I cannot recommend it to other people because everybody is different. But for me, I made a lot of research of how people from ulcerative colitis got better. And I found out that a lot of people that got that condition get better in the natural way, through fasting, eating fermented food, collagen, and like bone broth and stuff for their gut. And it made a huge difference in my life. I just wish I would have known that before. So do you have a specific diet wise stuff you like? So like, you know, I've recently, another ridiculous sounding thing, but it makes me feel really good is very low carbs. So, you know, keto or even carnivore, it sounds ridiculous. It doesn't make any sense, but it makes me feel really good even for performance. Is Rogan has influenced you, he's in carnivore diet. I was influenced actually by people. Yeah, well, he... There's, I'll tell you where, cause I was doing it before he was doing it, is there's, it was popular in the endurance athlete community where it was fat adapted athletes. It was people who, insane people who run 50 miles, a hundred miles, they figured out that they could fuel their body by, with fat. They can go to fat as the source of energy as opposed to carbs. So I remember hoping that I'll be able to learn how to run 50 miles and so on. I've never done more than 22, but it, I just remember switching away from carbs and feeling really liberated. Like I wasn't thinking about food as much. I'm able to eat once a day and feel really good. I mean, I think everybody's body is different, but I think carbs make me lazy. Maybe it's because... The crash. Yeah, it's the crash, but also just psychologically, something it forced me to also think about food too much. Like it starts becoming, you know, our, just like you said, our society is so much about food. There's so many, so much advertisement and so much of our social life is about food. And so it's very easy to live life, like live day to day, thinking when is the next meal? Like, what am I gonna eat for lunch? What am I gonna eat for dinner? What am I gonna eat for breakfast? And if you're not careful, that's gonna get in the way of you doing cool shit for like liberating yourself and thinking like, what am I actually passionate about in this life? Like creating and forgetting to eat those kinds of things and still being able to fuel your body. I don't know. It's been fascinating to figure out like later in life that carbs aren't necessary to function well. It makes me think like we don't know anything about nutrition. That's right. Yes, you know, personally, I don't think I could have a diet without carbs. I love chocolate too much. For me eating, it's a pleasure of life. I love my carbs. I love my sugar. However, if you talk about diet, I don't have a specific diet, but recently I, what I'm trying to do is the days that I do not work out, I only eat once. That's kind of my rules. Plus I try to respect 16, eight and do my three day fast four time a year. But the rest of the thing, I let myself loose because I don't think I would be happy if I don't give myself the right to eat for me personally. I love to eat so much. Next. And you talk about diet, carnivore diet. It's very interesting because a few years ago, I went to Africa in Maasai Mara. And it's a tribe in East Africa. And I want to visit them. I did a safari. And I talked to them and these guys, their diet is 99% carnivore. That's crazy. And you should see they're very beautiful people. Shredded like, some people would say, oh, it's genetic. I'm like, yeah, maybe it's genetic. But I mean, think about the Eskimos also that like most of their diet is on fish, right? So I believe it can be done. I believe it can be done. Like an exclusive carnivore diet. And I think I'm gonna try it pretty soon just to have the experience, you know, to see how it feels like. Well, you're gonna hang out with Joe. Be careful bringing it up because he'll convince you to forever switch to carnivore. Definitely. He loves it. I mean, but just like you, I think he loves food. So he can't ever stay on carnivore. It was funny because we went to an Italian restaurant together and I still only eat meat. Like I love the constraints of discipline. That's partially why I like carnivore. I like saying no to food that is delicious. But part of the problem is that I don't know how to moderate. You said chocolate. I don't know how to have one chocolate. Is that something you're able to do? Have like in moderation? No, it's when I have an opportunity, I do it. I don't have any, I'm an extremist person. That's the thing. When I have a chance, I just eat. I go to much and that's what I like about my life. That's what I like about fasting because probably if I would not have discovered fasting, eating chocolate would give me cramps and all sorts of problems. Because people on ulcerative colitis, normally they cannot eat chocolate. They cannot drink alcohol. But I believe because I'm fasting, that's the reason why I'm medication free. I can eat whatever I want, whenever I want. But I have to do that fasting. And now it became to a point that it's no longer hard for me. It's like normal. I don't even force myself. It's easy. You know what I mean? Some of my friends think I'm insane. But I tell them it's like when you get used to it, it becomes like an habit. And I know that hunter gatherer, like our ancestor did not eat three times a day. It's not true. They ate when they could. And when they eat, they feed themselves as much as they can until the next time because they didn't know when they could eat again. I think that's how we're built to have this similar lifestyle. If we could take a step back to the discussion about fear a little bit. So Mike Tyson talks about this process of him walking to the ring. He sounds similar to you in many ways of the anxiety and the fear that he experiences. And he has this sort of story that he tells about walking to the ring and being supremely afraid. But as he walks and gets closer and steps in, he finds the confidence and becomes supremely confident. I think he calls himself like a God. I feel like a God in the ring. Do you go through a similar process of finding the confidence? Well, yes. And I use a James Lange theory. So what I do is because I'm not afraid to admit that I'm afraid. And in the beginning of my career, I really thought, I asked myself, because I was very good in mixed martial art, but I really thought I wasn't made for this because the idea of fighting didn't make me happy. It's something like I was forced to do in order to keep that lifestyle that I have and achieve my goal, perhaps one day to make enough money, to retire, and that was my dream. You know, that was my dream. But when I was looking around the gym where I was training, most of my training partner, they were happy. They were excited. And sometimes I corner a lot of guys and they're happy and they're in the locker room. They don't react the same way I do. Some perhaps does, but if you see me in the locker room, like when I get, like my last fight with Michael Bisping, just to give you an example, in my last fight with Michael Bisping, because it's fresh, it's the one that is the most recent, but it's always the same thing. My last fight, and Bisping, I get in the locker room. I had like three guys that I trained with, Mickey Gall, Eamonn Zahabi, and Joseph Duffy. They all lost. It was like, my locker room was basically cursed. When you're in a locker room and people from your locker room leave for a fight, and then they come back, it's kind of a momentum. You shake and yeah, good job. Now it's my turn. It's kind of a team brotherhood sort of thing. So the atmosphere in my locker room was pretty bad. It was like going to a funeral. So I was very scared. And before every fight, I asked myself always, shit, what the hell I'm doing here? Why did I choose to come back? Oh my God. And I'm freaking out. However, I'm putting on a mask like I'm acting, because if I don't do that, it will reflect on my coaches. And if my coach, the confidence of my coaches is affected, it will reflect on me. So I need to feel strong. I need to make them believe that I'm excited to be there and I'm happy to be there. So this sort of play start when I get, when I first step in the locker room, even though I feel completely different, but that's how I play it. Normally the fight day, I never feel a hundred percent. I always feel exhausted, tired. My eyes are itching because I don't sleep enough the few nights before, because I'm constantly rehearsing scenarios that might happen in the fight. So mentally, it's not that I'm not on top. But you keep all that to yourself. I keep it to myself and I'm lying to everybody around me. But everybody knows, you know? Fair ass John De Nair, they know Freddie Rose, they've been with me for a long time. So they know what's going on, but at least I'm lying to them. I'm like, hey, I'm feeling great. So, and seeing all my training partner, like very disappointed because they lost their fight. Some were badly hurt as well. It was hard. So, and I remember I get, I get, I get, I started to warm up and everything. And as you start to warm up, you become a different person. Because, you know, we know that certain posture and yoga can affect your mental state. But I would say it's a little bit the same thing in fighting. You know, like when you started hitting the pads, your muscle memory, your instincts comes back and you remember that you're good at this, you know? And your confidence start to grow. And as seeing your trainers holding the pad and repeating your moves, it makes you also remember all the sacrifice you have done through your training camp. And confidence come from how you prepared yourself. And even you're afraid, you can be confident at the same time. Being afraid and being confident is two different things. And before every fight, just right before I walk in, it's when I'm scared, I go in the bathroom and I look at myself in the mirror. I used to have a bandana and a gi, but now I didn't have this for my last fight because of the new Reebok deal they had. But I did the same rehearsal that I always do. I look at myself in the mirror and I start to compliment myself. Like, even if I don't believe it, I'm starting to trying to believe it as I am. I'm finding all the reason why I'm gonna win the fight. And all my trainer knows that before every fight, when the guy from the UFC goes, Steppen Maroon says, St. Pierre, you're up next. I always take a few minutes to do that same rehearsal. And I tell myself, I'm gonna win this fight because I'm better. And I'm very cocky about myself. I'm telling all the reasons that I'm gonna win. I got a better team, I made more sacrifice. I'm faster, I'm more powerful, way more athletic. My fighting IQ is better than him. I got a strategy on point that he's never gonna be able to keep up with and this and that. And I was telling myself, I'm gonna show these young kids how things should be done. Trying to boost myself. Try to boost yourself. And you start to believe in it. You become a different person. So when you walk out the bathroom, now rock and roll. Now I really believe it for real. I'm still scared, but I believe it for real. And that's the transformation that happened for me right there. And from now, from there to the fight, until the fight is over, I call it cruise control. Because you don't have time to think in a fight. If you're trying to think, you're missing the opportunity. So that's how I see it for myself. So at that point, you stop thinking and you just go cruise control, autopilot. Trust yourself, you know? Trust yourself because you repeated all the scenarios. So everything that you have done, it's inside your computer. Your computer, your brain is programmed to react accordingly to certain situations. And it's not the night of the fight that you'll tell yourself, oh, finally I'm gonna do this if you do this now. If you have not practiced it before, you're screwed. The preparation, the repetition that makes it happen. What about the really difficult moments in a fight where you are tested to your limits, essentially. Usually it's cardio related exhaustion, right? Where you have to ask yourself that same question. It's like, why the hell am I doing this? Yeah. Do you experience those or are you able to ride through the autopilot? And if you do, what do you do in those moments? Never in a fight. When I'm in a fight, when the fight is on, I never change my mind. I go until the end. However, for example, my first fight with BJ Penn, I had a terrible first round. So I had to switch gear. That happened sometimes. But it's part of my plan. I always have a plan B, plan A, plan B, plan C. You need to have that. If fighters goes into a fight thinking, oh, what I'm gonna do this, this, this, and they don't have a plan B, if this doesn't work, that's mean they're not well prepared. If you talk to me before every fight, I can like in 30 seconds give you my whole strategy. You know, for BJ Penn, my first fight with BJ Penn was, oh, I'm gonna keep it standing up, keep the fight from the outside, you know, because I'm faster than him. Then the fight with BJ Penn start. I found out that I was not faster than him. And I found out that his reaction time was better than mine. So I got beat up the first round and I got a bloody nose and everything. So my plan B was now I'm gonna wrestle him. You know, I'm gonna wrestle him and, you know, make him tired and trying to put him down. And that's how I beat him, because I switched gear, you know? But if you can't do that, if you cannot find a way to become the perfect nemesis to your opponent, you might win a few fight, but you're gonna find, you're gonna fight someone sooner or later that will give you a lot of trouble. So that's where the anxiety pays off. You're anticipating all the ways it goes wrong. So you develop the plan B and plan C. Hi, you know, we talked a lot with, like John Donahue, who you work with. It's interesting. I don't think I've heard him talk about plan B and plan C. He usually has a really clear plan A, an entire system of plan A. I don't think I've heard him, we've had a good discussion about it in, over some cheeseburgers. And he was kind of espousing the value of mastering escapes. So when you find yourself in bad situations, being exceptionally good at finding ways out of those bad situations, and that's a way of dominance. There's nothing, there's no better way to dominate your opponent, according to him, than to show that they can't possibly hurt you no matter how bad the position is. It's like, as opposed to a physical dominance, it's a psychological dominance. It's very interesting. But I wonder if he has plan B and plan C in his mind too. You know, in mixed martial arts, sometimes it's like in science, sometimes you can make a mistake, you know? Like every human can make a mistake, you know? There's certain sport or a certain situation that you, if there's a mistake made, that's it, exactly. Sometimes it's the case in MMA, but sometimes you're able to redeem yourself. And if you look the fight with BJ Penn, one that I had, which was probably one of the most competitive fight, and it was probably the, it was the fight that I got the most damage, and I was messed up. It took me three days, like two, three days to recuperate from that fight. I was really damaged. And my first fight versus my second fight, I made a lot of adjustment because I have learned from my first fight. And also I had a guy, one thing people don't know, like they talk about fighters having secret weapons. See, for me, my secret weapons was not, like some is that they use like certain, like different things. For me, it was knowledge. I had a guy in Montreal, he was measuring frames. He's not a scientist, he's a friend of Ferras and I. And what he does, he watched fight, and he measured frames, the way he does it is when you watch a fight and one of the guy throw a punch, he cut the picture by frame, the video by frame. Cluck, cluck, cluck, cluck. So he's able to see which fighter has better reaction time than others. And BJ Penn, he found out that BJ Penn, of all the UFC roster at the time when he was in his prime, he had probably the best reaction time of all. According to him, Lyoto Mashido was the second one. But BJ Penn was the first one. So I knew that if I would try to go first, because I've always been the fastest guy, normally when I fight someone. But when I fought BJ Penn, I tried to go first. And he was always able to, like, I was never able to touch him with my jab and he came back with a counter punch. However, because of what he told me, I knew that BJ Penn has a very fast reaction time, but at a very poor reset time. To him, the way he described it to me, he's like, your nervous system is like a muscle. BJ Penn was so fast, but he's like more like a sprinter. So when I did the second fight, when I fought BJ Penn, I made him flinch. Like I fake a lot, so I make him react and flinch. So all that reaction time that he used to flinch was not used properly to avoid my punches. So I load up his nervous system with a lot of information and fake and to make him flinch and pretending I was kicking and wrestling. So he got overwhelmed and he got tired very, very fast. So that's how I beat him. People sometimes they don't know really what's the strategy behind the thing. They only see the physical part. But when you fight someone, if I fight you, I look at you in the eyes, there's a lot of things that going on between you and I. I can look down here, bam, jab you in the face. The audience will not see these little detail, but you will see it. And that's what it makes the magic during a fight. The relation that you have with the opponent, like the mental game, what you make him believe, those little things, I use a lot of those. If you've talked to a lot of my opponent, they'll tell you like, I use a lot of these little things. Like I look down at Ben, I go up or I am pretending I want to attack you so I make you flinch. But in reality, I'm just doing this because I want to rest. I want to recuperate and I'm tired. How much is, you know, people talk about that with poker, for example, how much is the value of this, you know? So like some people argue that poker is more about the betting, you know, just the money. It's just how much you bet and so on. So that would be more like the analogy there with fighting would be just strictly the physical movement of your body. And then a lot of people argue that there's a lot here in the way you look and the little movements in the face. So do you think there's, do you think you're communicating with your opponent when you look at them? There's no way to know for sure 100%. And I'm by no means psychic, nothing like that. And I don't believe in that at all. The only thing is I know through looking through the eyes of my opponent when he's afraid and when he gives up on me. I've been accused very often in my career to not take enough risk, to not finish my opponent. But the reason why I didn't finish my opponent is because I saw in his eyes that he gave up. He gave me the fight and I'm winning the fight. So it's not up to me. It's not to me to make it, to try to sacrifice myself trying to finish him. Perhaps if I do that, I will open up for him to capitalize on my mistake. It's up to him to make a risk. So people sometimes they don't understand that this is the art of fighting, my friend. Like if I'm winning the fight, like in hockey, in ice hockey, if you're winning the game and it's the third period, it's at the end of the third period, you're not gonna take out your goaltender trying to score another goal because winning five to three or five to four is the same thing. Same thing in MMA, we make a living out of this. And sometimes as bad as it can be, you wanna save yourself for another day, you wanna minimize the damage. But if he knows he's losing the fight, it's up to him to take the risk. It's not up to me. So I'm a good counter fighter. I use a lot of my attack or counter strike or reactive takedown or proactive takedown. That's my specialty. So I'm not gonna, I'd have no desire to sacrifice myself trying to finish my opponent if he want to, if perhaps I might give him the opportunity to capitalize on me. It's not smart to do that. And very often when I fight someone, I can read him, I see the fear in his eyes. Now I'm like, I got you now. He's very desperate, doesn't mean I have to put my guard down because he's gonna be desperate, but I know I'm beating you. And I know I'm beating you, I'm just gonna do what I need. If I have a chance, of course I'll knock him out, but I'm not gonna try to sacrifice myself to knock him out. And if you do that, maybe one day you'll make a mistake and you'll get dropped and you'll tell yourself, like, shoot, I just got brain damage. Maybe I'm never gonna come back the same. Maybe I ruined my career or, you know, it's a very serious game that we're playing. It's very dangerous. In the face of that risk, I mean, Mike Tyson talked about, you know, when the opponent looks away, he knows he's got him, right? That he's broken. For a person like me who has trouble making eye contact with people, there's truth to that. I mean, there's truth to that, that there's an animal nature to us looking away. I mean, you could see that the way the body language, the way the eyes move between two animals going at it in the wild, when like two lions fight or two whatever fight, there's a certain beta move when you've been defeated. Yes, or one thing when I know that, that when it happened, one of the sign is when I just like make a faint and the guy flinch like crazy, that's mean he's really scared of me. It's a little bit like you're doing this, that guy flinch a little bit or you're doing this, he's flinching, that's mean you hurt him and he doesn't wanna get hurt again. So he's really trying to run away and not winning the fight anymore, but not losing. So sort of surviving the five round. And it's hard to finish a guy who doesn't wanna fight, a guy who's not fighting anymore to win and he's fighting to not lose. And the proof of that, if you don't believe me, just look the reign of all the greatest champion in UFC. I don't care who they are, John Jones or like, you could clearly see that in the beginning of their reign, they could finish a lot of their opponent, same as me in the beginning, I was finishing a lot of my opponent. But there's a time that the entire UFC roster is studying you and they found a ways to, perhaps not beating you, but they found a way to navigate through the fight in a way that they minimize the damage. You know what I mean? So it's a big difference between fighting to win and fighting to not lose. You said that there's a difference between a fighter and a martial artist. So now we were talking about fighting, you're considered by many to be one of the greatest fighters of all time, but you've said that there's a difference between a fighter and a martial artist. A fighter is training for a purpose, he has a fight. I'm a martial artist, I don't train for a fight. I train for myself, I'm training all the time. My goal is perfection, but I will never reach my goal. I will never reach perfection. So what to you does it mean to be a martial artist? Martial artist is because that lifestyle that I have has been introduced to me and the seed has been planted to my mind a long, long time ago by my father. I do not train because I have a fight, I will always train. It kind of amused me to see that a lot of people because I'm still training, because I love the science of fighting. I do not like to fight, but I love the science of it. And I will always do it as long as I can do it. People think I'm gonna make a comeback and everything. I'm about to have 40 years old. I don't wanna fight in a cage at 40 years old. Some people have done it, they did it very well, but I'm not one of them. I feel a little bit to me that, and you never say never, feel like to me like it's a little, like a kid that he play with a strain when he's young, like, brrr, then he's five years old, brrr, six years old, seven years old, eight years old. And then I'm always like, what the hell I'm doing here and I'm too old for this. Like I have done it, you know, and I got out of it on top and I'm healthy, which is the most important thing right now, I'm touching wood and I'm wealthy. I beat the game, you know what I mean? In a way, like, that's not to be cocky, but I did it. And I wish more fighters could do the same thing. I wish, it's unfortunate because a lot of them, they stay there and hang out for too long and they get badly hurt. They get beaten and broken, you know, and they finish broke as well because the lifestyle you have when you're a pro athlete, it's crazy, you know, it's unbelievable. However, everything that goes up in life goes down and you need to plan your future, you know? So for me, if some guys have the same mentality as me and they're watching us right now, I would say if you do it because you're just good at it, you like the money, the advantage, the freedom that it gives you, but you don't necessarily like to fight, when you're done, you finish on top, you know, go cash out and get out of here. Walk away, that's really hard to do. However, Alex, it's not everybody that does it for that reason. Some people generally love to fight, love to compete. So they do it because they love it, you know, or they do it because of the money. But if you don't love it, if you don't like to fight because it's very stressful and you don't enjoy, you enjoy the training perhaps, but you don't like to fight, you do it because it's part of what you need to do in order to keep that lifestyle. And, you know, like you don't need the money, say, get out of here, man. If you're in your prime, get out of here because if you don't, you'll hurt your own legacy, you'll damage your health. It's very sad. And it's a sad business, you know what I mean? It's like a lot of, one of the place where, one of the most happiest place for me to go and the most saddest place for me to go is in the gym. It's in TriStar Montreal. Because it's one of the happiest place for me to go because I can go train and do what I love to do. But it's also a very sad place for me because after when I'm about to leave, there's always a bunch of young kid that comes or guys that are around 30, 33 years old. And they come to me and say, hey, George, you have some advice for me. And I look at them. And if they're my friend, they're real close friend of mine, I'll tell them the truth in their face. And I've done it many times and it was not well received. But if they're not my friend, I have to, you know, it's always an advice about fighting and I answer their question, it's my pleasure. But the truth, if they want me to tell the truth, the big majority of them, I would tell them, I said, listen, man, you're in maybe three, like on a losing street of three fights, you're 30, 33 years old, you know, I think you should think about doing something else in your life, you know, have other goals, you know, because you're not gonna make it. And, you know, I've seen that movie before and it's a very sad ending. And I'm sad to tell you the truth because you're not gonna make the money. Just choose some, but if I tell them that, they're gonna be angry at me because they're gonna be like, oh, you, you make it and you think I cannot make it. So it's kind of, they're gonna think I'm cocky. But I was lucky to make it, you know, the star were all aligned, but at one point you need to be able to have a plan B, you know? Like some parent, they come to see me with their kids. Hey, this is the future world champion in UFC and what advice would you give him? I always tell the same thing. And it does not make everybody happy when I say, I go to the kids, I say, are you good at school? Say, stay at school, school is very important for you. Stay educated. Yeah, do boxing, martial arts, a great sport, stay in shape, but don't put your eggs all in the same basket. And the parents sometimes are angry when I say, not angry, but I can see in their eyes, they're like, they kind of surprised. And it's not because I made it that I will tell their kid to follow the same path that I did. I went to school too, I've studied. I dropped out of school when I had my first world championship fight against Matt Hughes. But before that I was school. So I had another, you know, another way to go if things would not have gone the same, the way I wanted. But the problem, and I'm saying that, it's not only about boxing and MMA, I'm talking about hockey, basketball, baseball, same thing, maybe it's the one on 100,000 that make it. And I'm saying that make it, when I'm saying I make it, that means they can retire and have enough money for the rest of his life. Because it's a sad story, people only heard about the people that makes it, but a lot of fighters, even the UFC champion, in boxing champion, even the football, basketball, I don't care, big names, when they retire they have zero. They're bankrupt, my friend. And it's a very sad, sad story and a sad reality that most people are not aware of. But having other paths in life actually can also increase the chance of you dominating and reaching the highest peak in your main thing. I mean, Jimmy Pedro, I don't know if you know who that is, is a judo coach in America. He says that to all of his athletes, is to make sure that you go, he has a lot of, you know, Kayla Harrison, two time Olympic gold medalist, he has a lot of Olympic medalists. But basically there's something about going to school, like having, forget school, any other avenue in life that gives you the freedom to go all out in your main. Like, you know you're doing it for the right reasons, you're not stuck, it clears the mind to where you're free to be the best in the world, as opposed to, kind of, you have to. I mean, different people are motivated by different things, so sometimes some people like having their back to the wall and that's the only option they have, but most people I think excel when you have other options. I think it's a distraction and I think it's important to have a distraction. When you say that, I think about one of my coach, John Danaher, he put his academic background experience into jiu-jitsu, and that, for me, that's why he's the best teacher I ever had. He's incredible. He started teaching me when I even couldn't speak much English at the time, and I was able to communicate and understand, you know, that's how good he is. But I truly believe that most of athletes, especially in sports like mixed martial arts, train way too much. If I could go back and talk to a young George, I would tell him, you do way too much volume. You train way too hard, train smarter, it's more important. And I think sometimes we underestimate the benefit of recuperation because I think we assimilate the information that we learn during a training when we recuperate and not during the training itself. And this whole mentality of harder, heavier, you know, like it's good for someone who's lazy. But if you're an elite athlete, most of the time, you know, like you're not always, but most of the time it's because you're not lazy. And a lot of guys, sometimes they're elite athlete champions and you hear people say, oh, I can't believe he's very gifted, but he doesn't work. But perhaps it's not really because, perhaps it's because we don't understand, perhaps he's doing the right thing and it's us who's working too much and too hard. That's what I think. There's a guy I train with, he made me think about it. His name is Mansour Barnaoui. He's gonna be a future star, he's an incredible fighter. He train once a day. And he asked me some time advice when he came to Montreal, he's from France. You'll hear about him, he's very good. And I saw him in the morning at TriStar and I said, okay, I'll see you perhaps later in the other training. He's like, no, I only train once a day. And he kind of waits for me to give him like, not an approval, but like to see how I react or, I don't know, it was kind of a strange feeling, but I told myself, at that point I kind of, I had an awakening and I told myself, man, maybe he's doing the right thing. Because a lot of people would say, for example, that's a lazy way of doing it. But perhaps it's the best way to do it. I'm not saying that training once a day is the best way to do it, that's what I'm saying. I'm saying that everybody's different, but for him, it works beautifully. And I wouldn't change anything, you know, like if I would be him because he's improving like crazy. Yeah, and ultimately the bigger picture there is to do something that everyone else says is stupid. It's like the fasting thing that a lot of people would say, a lot of nutritional experts would say that that's a dumb way. You know, if you want to be an MMA fighter, you should be eating like many times a day. You should be starting every day with oatmeal. You should be carving up constantly, but that's not necessarily true for everybody. And it's possible, I'm sure there's actually now a few MMA fighters that are carnivore only, it's possible. I used to eat right before training and it didn't bother me. However, now my first training that I do normally in average around noon, 11 a.m., I haven't eaten anything when I do my first training. And it feels to me that I'm much more clear in my mind, I'm much more creative, I feel better. Yeah, it's a big difference. I just wish I would have known that before. Well, it's fascinating the role of the mind in all of this. How important is it for your mind to be clear, to really think deeply? There's a judoka American named Travis Stevens. I remember he said something that the right kind of practice is when your mind is exhausted at the end of it, that you were constantly thinking through things. Like your body shouldn't be exhausted first, your mind should be exhausted first. It's really fascinating. So people think about training hard. A successful practice is where you walk away, just overwhelmed how much you had to think. It's fascinating framing of a successful practice. It's true. Travis Stevens was one of my main training partner when I got ready for my fight with Nick Diaz and Carlos Candid. He drove every Friday from, I believe, Boston. It's like a six-hour drive, drive to the gym in Montreal, train with us an hour and a half, drive back. He's got such an amazing discipline. I was so happy for him when he won the medal at the Olympic game. Man, what a well-deserved accomplishment. It's unbelievable. It paid off. I was so happy for him. And every time we got to the gym, he was waiting for me in the kneeling position like a soldier. I was like, my God, this guy is made of steel. And after training, I always offer him, I say, hey, Travis, I know you like to train with that because in Montreal, they have a very good judo team, Nicolas Gill and all those guys. And I say, if you want to stay, I'll get you the hotel. You know, like anything you want. It's like, no, no, I got to go back. I have another training later. I'm like, not only that he trained with us, he had to go back because he had another training. I'm like, this is insane. And he's gone through a huge number of injuries. So he's also an innovator because, I mean, it's difficult to say, but for American judo, there's not many high level judoka. So if you want to be the like fight with the best in the world, you have to be alone. It's a lonely journey, actually. It's kind of sad. It's much easier to be in Japan where everybody's a killer. When you're alone at it, it's a difficult journey. And, you know, it's funny we talked about kind of, there's some sports where a mistake is, that's it. You know, you can't recover from a mistake. I think judo oftentimes is one of those sports. And added on top of that is the Olympics, only every four years. And Travis's story, he's the reason I, when I saw him in 2008, is I started martial arts. I switched from like wrestling and street fighting to doing jiu-jitsu and judo. And I just saw so much guts. And the, in 2000, I might be messing up the years here, but in the next Olympics, he fought and he lost on just the referee call. Yeah. And just, he went to war and he just, so much guts and just everything on the line and to lose and to still persevere through all the injuries, through all of that, through incredibly difficult training sessions to go another four years and then compete and then win a medal. I mean, that guy is just, and like, he clearly could have been very successful. He's also an incredible jiu-jitsu competitor. So he could have switched to that, but he's stuck. In a lot of sport, when you're an elite, like for example, in Canada, I saw a keys, the number one sport of the countries. Kids, when they're an elite, when they're young, they get chosen and they're kind of already known as a superstar. You know, the school where they go and the program they follow, like, I'm sure it's the same thing in US in basketball, baseball, perhaps American football, because they already chosen. So they grew up with that, that it's a kid, that superstar stardom, so to speak. And it's already sort of glamorous, you know? However, in MMA, there's no MMA, judo, wrestling, like in America, because it's not our national sport, actually, it's not like, even when I first started, it was not really well received by the media. There's no glamor into it. Now I don't know, it seems like it's another era now. And I feel sometimes that some people do it for the wrong reason. You know, some people do it because of the glamor, because of the money. But even if you're an elite and very good, the glamor and the money won't come in the beginning. It's a very long grind before, you know, it start to come in. And you need to make those sacrifices. And it's a journey that where you will be tested, you will be hurt, repetitively. And you're gonna have to reach the down deep and come back up. And then once you finally think you made it, you're gonna go back in the down deep again. It's a very exhausting and encouraging adventure sometimes. But if you hold on to your dream and you believe in it, you know, and you have the stars are aligned, you're gonna make it. That's why it's only a few people that make it, you know? And that's why I feel, I feel sometimes that a lot of people in the new generation do it for the wrong reason. In my generation, because of sport at first, it was there were no rules. I thought it was more pure. The people that did it was really because of the passion. We didn't seek money, fame. We did it because we wanted to be, I did it because I wanted to be the man, you know? I like to have the confidence that when I walk somewhere, you know, I have the confidence that, you know, it's an illusion because nobody's faster than a bullet. Yes. But I wanted to achieve it for myself. And which today now, because I don't know if it's social media and all that, the world has changed. The glamor, you know, it's, I feel it's a different thing right now. Yeah, if you get in it for the glamor or the money, you may not have the right amount of fuel to persevere through all the ups and downs. Yeah. Sure. You know, when you talk about motivation of money and glamor, a guy comes to mind, and I don't know how many wrestlers you know, but in Russia, there's a guy named Bovasiy Asatyev. The Satyev brothers, one of the greatest freestyle wrestlers of all time, but he also has, it's funny that he doesn't have many interviews. One of my goals is to go out and talk to him in Russian, do an interview with him, because he's exceptionally poetic and a deep thinker. He's the kind of martial artist that you are in the way that it's not just about the different battles you've been through or whatever. It's about the philosophy behind the way he approaches life. Now he has spoken quite a bit about that the glamor, the fame, the money are all things that get in the way of the purity of the experience, the art, that the way to achieve greatness is to just lose yourself in the art of the actual combat. In his case, it's wrestling. And then kind of not to worry and actively make sure that you block out anybody who feeds you the narrative where you're supposed to be this famous person and it's all those kinds of things that he basically says, let others write your story. Make sure that you just focus on the art. And now another person from that side of the world is of course, Khabib. So he represents that side of the world. And we were talking about walking away and most people not being able to walk away at the top as you have, but also now Khabib has, it looks like, incredibly so. So maybe you can comment about what your thoughts are about Khabib, not to bring him out of being able to just walk away. We talk about the goat very often. Khabib is one of, isn't the argument because he has the most dominant carrier of all martial art, the guy. Some guys can be named the goat for different reasons, but Khabib for that reason, and he's undefeated. I don't even know if he lost. He might have lost round, but he dominate all his opponent. It was ridiculous. And such an incredible carrier that he had. I love to watch him fight. He's incredible. And when you talk about the art, when you say mixed martial art, the idea of a flawless performance for me, everybody often when we say flawless performance thinks about a knockout, a brutal knockout. But for me, it's to be able to showcase beautiful technique, like a beautiful takedown, beautiful submission, like something beautiful that, you know, when you look at, for example, Wayne Gretzky or Michael Jordan or like Stephen Curry, even if you don't know nothing about basketball and you watch Michael Jordan, you'll be like, wow, that's beautiful what you just did. Like we talk about fighting and trying to say the word beautiful in fighting for certain people, it could sound kind of crazy, you know, but I'm talking about the technique, a beautiful technique. You know, for me, that's the goal. You know, when I was fighting, it's not only to have a brutal knockout because some people are more gifted than others. I'm saying gifted. Some people are better than others in certain phase of fighting, but for me, it was that. It was to showcase, to win, of course, but to showcase some beautiful technique that you can watch it and be like, wow, that was incredible. The timing, he did it. And when I think about Khabib Normagomanov, I see all the detail of his work, especially when he's got his opponent against defense, that's like, that's his area of expertise where he's, to me, he's the best that ever did it in terms of that fighting style, that particular expertise that he has, it's just incredible. The flawless execution of that particular set of techniques. Yeah, and Conor McGregor had the accuracy. The Spider Anderson Silver was like, was I would say the most flamboyant of all, you know, like he was moving like the matrix. John Jones was incredible in terms of creativity, spinning elbows and that, and he faced incredible adversity. Dimitrious Johnson was so complete. You could bring, like he was slamming a guy to an arm bar. It was just unbelievable. Like he was like the complete fighter. BJ Penn was like so flexible. He did stuff with his body that like, like nobody could do his, the dexterity of his hips was just unbelievable. Dominic Cruz, to me, was incredible. His footwork, his distance control. So when you talk about like the GOAT, Royce Gracie, another one, he did things that I think for me is not number one because- Yeah, I got to, I got to, and sorry to interrupt, the hoist is a fascinating one. I'd love to hear what you think about him, but many people consider you, most people consider you to be the number one, greatest mixed martial arts fighter ever. So it's fascinating to remove you from that list and continue this discussion and asking like, who do you think is the greatest fighter ever? You listed some amazing ones. Royce, you somehow skipped Fedor. I'm very, as a Russian, I'm very offended. No, I was going to, there's so many. Fedor is one as well. Fedor, I think in his prime was like, when you say, when you talk about a name, for example, like we talk about him when he was in his prime. Like when I talk, for example, about Anderson Silva, I'm not talking about the Anderson Silva who fought his last fight against Urey Yohan. I'm talking about Anderson Silva who knocked out Victor Belfort, yes. BJ Penn, same thing. The problem is when fighters hang on for too long in the sport, that's what happened. They kind of make people forget how good they were. And it's very sad. We talk about Fedor and just think about Stipe Miocic. Miocic is probably the greatest heavyweight of all time. With Fedor, I would really wonder who would have won this fight, the both guys in their prime. I tend to lean towards Fedor because my heart was with Fedor, but he could have gone the other way. But just because Miocic lose his last fight, now everybody is like, oh yeah, they forgot about him. It's crazy, man. It's one fight, you zig when you should zag, boom. That's the reality of mixed martial arts. Well, that's why the thing is the mixed martial arts isn't just the performance, the strictly who won and who lost. It's also the stories we tell ourselves. And so, I mean, there's beautiful stories being weaved and that also is part of who is the greatest of all time, is what were the battles, what had to be overcome, what was the flavor of the flawless performances, all of that plays into it. And you're right, being able to walk away at the top is also part of that. A lot of people ask me about Khabib and that fight, I want it to happen. Khabib wanted to happen, but UFC did not want to happen. Between you and Khabib? Yes, and we tried to make it like about three years ago when I retired, no, three, no, it was after two years ago. And they never came to fruition. The UFC were clear, they said they have other plan for Khabib. And it makes sense for the business standpoint because they want to keep the ball rolling. Now Khabib retired and like everybody else, after Justin Gage, I was doing the commentator in French for the UFC and I had a butterfly, I thought he was going to call me out. If there's one guy that I would have said yes, it would be him because for a fighter, the most exciting things to do, it's often the scariest one. And Khabib was worth the risk. He's the scariest matchup for you? Yes, he was worth the risk because nobody has ever been able to solve them. How would you solve the Khabib, normally I'm not a puzzle. Well, Khabib is very good against the fence. I would have to establish a game plan and everything, but I think what I would need it to do is take the center of the octagon right away. Use a lot of think and faith. Keep the fight all the way out or all the way in. And when I say all the way in is when you close the gap, use my proactive and reactive takedown and perhaps my superior explosivity to put him down. I like to use those proactive and reactive takedown because for me, I feel it's more economical. Khabib is a much better chain wrestler than me. Chain wrestler is when you got the guys to the fence, it's pure wrestling. What makes my takedown very efficient? It's my karate, it's not my wrestling. I'm very good at timing my opponent and getting in with my explosivity. So if you watch my takedown, it does not demand often, it does not demand a lot of work. When I use the, I call it proactive takedown when he's coming to punch me and I react. So I mean, proactive is when I'm faking it. So I instigate the takedown by a fake, then I take him down. And reactive is when I'm baiting him to throw something, then I'm putting. As a counter, yeah. Yes, but all my takedowns. In the center of the octagon. Yes, my takedowns are more in the center of the octagon. Like for example, another guy that does it well is Gleason Tebow that did it well in his best days. Khabib has more a style of chain wrestling, I would say like Kamaru Usman, so to speak, kind of guy. It's a different style, you cannot compare both styles. And that's the kind of takedown I'm good. And if I would have fight Khabib, that's one of the strategy I would have adopted. I would not have been afraid because everybody that I fought, I was able to put them down. And I have the pedigree to prove it in my fight resume. So you would have perhaps seen him on his back and I would have perhaps be on my back as well. So it would have been a very interesting fight. How hard do you think he is to take down? I mean, a lot of people speak about his wrestling being just. It has nothing to do with the wrestling because. It has to do with the karate. If I got that timing and I got my both hands around his knees, he's going down the other way. Everybody goes down, yeah. Yes, yes, he goes down. And I had a lot of that. That's what I would have done. I would not have been afraid of his wrestling. I would have beat the instigator. I would have forced the fight forward. And that's how I would have approached that fight, which I believe most of his opponent were afraid of his wrestling because they didn't have the tools that I have to put him down. I would not have forced the wrestling. I would have in the clinch. I would have tried to disengage. I have many ways to disengage a clinch. I would have want to force the fight in a fighting distance, you know, like in a shoot box distance, not in a wrestling distance. Is it possible this fight still happens? You're young, look great in the suit. Well, there's a lot of problems now. And the thing is, now I made peace with it. I no longer don't want to fight and it's not going to happen. UFC was not interested and I'm bound by contract with the UFC and by exclusivity. There are some people who says to me, oh, how about if a crazy wealthy Russian guy come with the money? I said, I'm going to be in court with the UFC. And also, I'm older now. And when I go home, man, I'm like, I don't want to do this. You were always like this. I don't want to do this. But like, for example, I was training with Freddie Roach a few days ago and I'm hitting pads, you know, and Freddie is looking at me and he's like, hey, you have the hitch back. I'm like, yeah. If Dana White would walk in the room in the gym at that precise moment with the UFC contract, I would sign it in the blink of an eye. But when I go home, I'm like, hell no. My belly is full. I'm healthy. I'm wealthy. Why would I want to fight for? I made peace with it. But the minute I go back in the gym, because I still get it inside me, when I train with the young guys, I still get it. And a lot of guys think, hey, tell me the truth. You're preparing a comeback because I still get it. You know, I'm a little bit older, but I got more knowledge. I can compensate. I become a different animal because, you know, it changed you. But then after you go home and you're like, man, no way I'm doing this. It's very hard to explain. You need to be a fighter to understand that. It's very, very hard to explain. Well, from your perspective, I think Khabib is one of the rare, one of the few fascinating scientific puzzles yet to be solved. So from that aspect as a martial artist, it's just a fascinating journey to try to solve that puzzle. There is a thing too, like we say, oh, who's the best fighter? People, like I am this. I realized that later in my life. And I'm sure a lot of young guys will say, oh, I said, yeah, it's not, don't speak for me. But I'm telling you right now what I'm about to say. You will realize it later. When I was young, I think you can proclaim yourself the more the bad ass man on the planet, you know, like nobody can beat you at. It's an illusion, man. That's the sad thing about, for example, DC. Daniel Cormier, that's probably one of the greatest, if not the greatest of all time, you said, Miochish. But like it's almost because of that little match up with John Jones. It's difficult for people to conceive of him as the greatest of all time. It's all about match up. It's all about timing. And also you make a fight. You make both guys fight 10 times. The result might be different. Like, like every time, you know, I mean, maybe he's going to win 8 out of 10. But that night is going to lose. Why? Because we don't know the universe made it like that. You know, maybe he got sick. Maybe he had the emotional issues. He didn't sleep well and he makes him lose focus and he got caught. You don't, we don't know. But it's, that's the thing with people ask me, would you have done it with Khabib? What would happen? I don't know. Maybe out of 10 times. I don't know. Maybe as a fighter, I hope I would have won more than him. He thinks the opposite is only one way to find out. That night, if there is a fight, the guy that going to win doesn't mean he's the best fighter. That means that he's the one that fought the best the night of the fight. Same thing in basketball or hockey. The team that wins the game. It's not necessarily the best thing is the team that play the best the night of the game. And fighting is no different. So being the baddest man on the planet, it's an illusion. I mean, that's the tragic thing about it is on any one night anything can happen. And that that tells a story for all of human history is it's it's sad. It's sad to think about, but that's what makes it beautiful that there's so much at stake. Like entire lives, all the dreams you've had growing up, all the hard work, all of it is decided in a single night. Even though that means nothing in terms of who's actually better. It's I mean, that's the beauty. That's why people of the Olympics, especially because it happens so rarely. And dreams are broken or like triumph is achieved by the unlikely hero. All like right there. I mean, that's why we love it, right? That's why I love it. If we would know always the result before it would be boring. That's why we do it. You know, I watch the odds, you know, like like sometimes it. I like to watch the odds before a fight, you know. Because, you know, there's things, you know, I believe in causality. You know, I believe in everybody believe different things, but I believe everything is because there is a there is a cause to everything. That's personally what I believe. I don't believe that I have like free will. I think I have the illusion of free will, but I believe there is a cause for everything. And if I'm doing something because of something, because of a cause by definition, there is no free will in a way. You know, if there is a cause by definition, there is not. How does that make you feel, by the way, like the idea that if we just look outside even just human psychology and fighting and so on, if we look at like physics, if everything is predetermined, if all of these low molecules interacting, it's all already like your story is already written. I mean, it depends. It's written, but I would need to know all the data and it's impossible, right? Like it's it's it's kind of weird. I got to say, but I don't to me, I don't see any argument to counter that idea. I can I don't maybe I'm ignorant, but I haven't seen nobody and everything that I've read so far. There is nothing that counter that idea that that that because in a mechanical world, if your car broke or, you know, we don't say the car decided to broke or a three trees fall. There's reason why the trees fall. We don't say the trees decide to fall. Right. So because us human being, I think it's our ego with the side and I'm no different than anybody. When I make a decision, I decided to this. I choose to do this. But I'm aware that there is causes. That make me do certain things. And by definition, I think if there is a cause. There is no free will by definition, right? Yes, but the thing is, just like you said, we understand so little about human intelligence, the human mind, and especially consciousness that the this giant mystery, this darkness that we don't understand how how it how it feels like to be something, to be a conscious being that because of that, we're not able to really even reason about free will or not. Because there might be some magic that comes from consciousness. You know, the consciousness might be the thing that makes us different from a car that breaks down. There might be something totally fascinating, totally undiscovered yet that will make us realize that free will is actually real and is somehow fundamental to the human experience. So it's sometimes I think we forget when we talk about free will and physics and it all seeming to be predetermined, we forget how little we actually understand about the world. And I think in that mystery, that could be totally new ideas that are yet to be discovered and will make us realize that it's not just an illusion. It is something that is like at the core of how the universe works. Some people believe that consciousness is a fundamental property of the universe. Like it's a one of the forces of physics. Like consciousness permeates everything. It's in everything. Like this table is conscious, but it's not as conscious as us. And we're this little peak of consciousness. And if that's true, and if we get to understand that, maybe there's something, there's an extra bonus we get in terms of free will once you become one of those entities that are super conscious. So I tend to be sort of humbled by the mystery of it. Do you believe one day with the technology that keeps improving, we will make robot that will be able to be somehow conscious? Absolutely. That's been my dream. That's been, I hope to do just that. First of all, I believe that all people are capable and want to be good to each other. And I think love is a really powerful thing that connects us and can create better and better worlds. Sort of like create better and better societies that improve both the technology, the quality of life, and just the basics of human experience. And I think creating AI systems that are conscious, that are human-like, can enable us to be better to each other. It's almost like adding more and more kindness to the world through the systems we interact with will inspire us to be better and better to each other. In terms of them being conscious, I think that is an absolute requirement. That entities we interact with communicate some element of consciousness to us. Like that's how we connect to each other. The reason we you and I connect is that we believe that each of us are conscious. And to me, what consciousness means is the ability to hurt, ability to suffer, to struggle in this world. Because just like you said, without the struggle, you don't have the love, you don't have the pleasure. And ultimately, consciousness is an entity's ability to struggle, to suffer. And from that arises the pleasure. And us together being able to appreciate the highs and experience together the lows. That's how we form the deep connections. I personally think we can create that in robots. And I personally believe it's a lot easier than we think. Does it make you afraid sometimes about the fact that one day AI, artificial intelligence could hurt us? Because of Hollywood, of course, the movies we watch. But it seems like when I hear sometimes Elon Musk talking. Yeah. So Elon talks about with AI, we're summoning the demon. He is very concerned. And I talked to him about it quite a bit. He's very concerned about all the different ways AI could hurt us humans. I tend to believe that there's a lot more ways in which AI can make our lives better and can make life awesome for humans. I think humans are the ones that can do a lot of evil things. So I'm less worried about AI. I'm more worried about humans. If I look at what you may have done on the course of history, for example, in regards to the planet, to the scale of the universe, I think what I'm afraid is that we have more of a destructive force than a beneficial force. So if AI takes that into consideration in order to protect us against ourself, it could hurt us. I don't know if you understand. What do you think about that? Does it makes you afraid sometimes? Not because of AI, but because of what humans are doing that AI could do to us to prevent us of hurting ourselves. Yeah. I mean, definitely it can bring out the worst in human nature and provide tools for evil people to do evil things at a larger scale. But I just think it depends what you think human beings are. I tend to believe that as we get more intelligent, we start to see the evolutionary value and the value in terms of happiness of being good to each other. And I think AI, if you look at AI as an optimization problem of how to create a civilization that works well and expands throughout the universe, I think love is much more effective. So AI will help us maximize that. I think there's going to be always spikes throughout as it has been through human history, where charismatic leaders will do evil onto the world in the name of good. You have the Stalin and the Hitlers and all of that. But ultimately, over time, I think technology will give the good people power and the evil people less power. Now, there's a lot of ways in that that won't be the case. There's a lot of ways for it to go wrong. And Elon talks about them, but I honestly think in terms of intelligent AI, that's going to bring more love to the world. The thing I'm concerned about is dumb AI. So there's been a lot of discussion between China and the United States recently on autonomous weapons system. This is something people don't they're afraid to talk about. But there's now a race where the United States has officially said that they're not against adding AI to its weapons systems. So now the US military is adding automation, adding intelligence to its drones, to its anything that can create damage. And so, of course, they did this so in response to China doing that. So you can imagine this is Terminator. You think about Terminator as intelligent systems. They're not. They're pretty dumb. The point is they're efficient at doing what they do. And in the space of war, efficient at doing what you do means killing. So that I'm really afraid of. But those are dumb AI. Those aren't your loving, deep, fulfilling relationships. That's like efficiently being able to fly, to plan the trajectory of dropping bombs, of missiles, of how to do counterattacks, of how to maximize the destruction of a particular facility instead of individuals. And then that can just escalate. And as opposed to the Cold War with the Soviet Union, this could be a hot war. And then the consequences, once you allow, it's kind of terrifying because currently the drones are operated by humans. So, you know, you have say you have information about intelligence gives you information about a particular terrorist located in this area. And then you use drones to maybe the automation there is to help you figure out what is the best trajectory to strike at that location. So you still have a human that pulls the trigger at the end of dropping the bomb. Now, automation and AI and autonomous weapons systems might be where you say there's a bad guy over here. You figure out how to get rid of the bad guy. OK, so then, of course, the systems will be very good at finding the right trajectory and so on. But there's bugs that can happen, unexpected bugs that the system might figure out that there is this bad guy might actually be in these other five locations. So it might make sense to cover the entire area. Right. And so you might drop bombs on the entire area. And then, you know, that's just OK. So that's going to lead to a lot of destruction at the scale of a city. But then you can immediately take that to nuclear weapons. If you add automation to responding to counterattacks to nuclear weapons, somebody you might get information that somebody is planning a nuclear attack on the United States. And the AI system will immediately respond and it can respond to the scale of launching nuclear weapons itself. And so there's all of these possibilities that don't require much intelligence. And that's exceptionally that's exceptionally concerning. I'm like you. I do not believe there is babies that are born bad. I think people do bad things because of their experience. However, if I look through my experience and from what I can see is some very often men's of power wants more power. That's what makes me afraid with. Yeah, no, absolutely. I listen. I've been I've come from the Soviet Union. Stalin is arguably one of the most powerful humans in history. He's not talked to often enough about by the evils he's done. Hitler gets all the attention. But Stalin has done arguably much more evil than than Hitler. Yeah, well, this is this is human nature. It wants power. We see that with institutions. We see that with governments and nations. I think you see you see this with the Internet. People are really hungry for the distribution of power. Like you see that people are very much distrustful of centralized places of power, of institutions and so on. So I think successful organizations, successful companies, successful governments will be run by people who distribute the power. Like I don't trust myself with power at all. Yeah. And I think you have to build into the system that no one person can have power and that you distribute it. That's where you have in the financial sector of cryptocurrency right now with Bitcoin and all those kinds of things. People are exploring how can we avoid the central bank to have control? How do you put the power in the hands of people, thousands of people, millions of people? And in the same way with with military, with any kind of with technology, I think the future looks very distributed. What do you think about militarizing space? The Space Force. I don't think about it often because right now I'm filled with excitement about space exploration, which is the positive aspect. So Elon, you know, I was born in an era where it was exciting. I don't know about you, but for me, it's exciting to look up to the stars and dream about us humans, you know, colonizing Mars, colonizing other planets, expanding onto the galaxy, into the universe. That's really exciting. So I'm the possibilities there are endless. I don't think because also the resources are endless. And so I think we get into trouble with militarization, with wars when the resources are very constrained. So I think for a while we're not going to be fighting. The only wars we'll be fighting in space are the ones that kind of help us. Another nation to compete. Who goes to the moon first, I guess. That's those those the kind of those kinds of things. There may be for satellites and all those kinds of communication and maybe in assistance for like cyber warfare, which is also very dangerous. But in terms of space, the wars out in space, I think. I think everything out in space will be positive and inspiring. It's very hard, but all good things are hard, I think. This is where I've been. I've been talking to a bunch of people about extraterrestrial life. I'm really excited by. I don't know. It's the other thing. When I look out to the stars, it's exciting to me. I know I think you've spoken about it being scary, but to me, it's exciting that there's intelligent creatures out there. Far beyond perhaps the intelligence of our own that are just too far away to explore yet. But we might one day come in contact with them. So that that to me is the ultimate motivator is to meet other intelligence life forms out there and connect with them. Have you ever meet Jacques Valley? No, but I've been in communication. I want to hope to talk to him. He's an amazing French. I know that there are many theories about this. You know, if there is alien, we don't know. Right. But some people think it's from another star systems. Jacques Valley is like to make a long story short, he has a different theory, thinks it's perhaps beings that could be living in a different dimension than us. And the reason why he says that is when he makes an experiment, when there is a sightings very often of a UFO, let's say I'm the UFO that you have three guys. They are looking at the UFO very often. One experiment that you can do. And sometime that that is the case. You asked your two friends to walk on the side and there is a point that it's like a corridor. You see the UFO and then you stop seeing like a corridor. And that's one of the reasons why he's saying that it's perhaps dimension. And I found that fascinating. This is what, you know, to the discussion of consciousness and all that, it feels like we might be just experiencing a very particular slice of this universe. We might not be understanding what's at the higher dimensions or higher dimensions in whatever form that means. You know, there's all these physical theories now that describe a world with dimensions that's much higher than the four dimensions of the three dimension of space and the one dimension of time. So whatever the hell is going on in those other dimensions, it could be something. Unfortunately, this is the sad part. It might be something we can't even comprehend with our human brains that the limitations are just. I mean, we're built, we're just descendants of apes. So like it might not be possible to even understand. Is there alien? Is there another dimension? Are they human from the future? Is there perhaps Chinese or another group of people that are working with technology far behind? But you know what, Lex, I had the chance to meet because of the sport I'm doing. I met a lot of people in military and politics sometimes that I asked them every time I met one this week. And I asked him, hey, is it true about the UFO is there? And he says to me, even before I asked him, I said, sorry, I have to ask you a question. I was in Los Angeles. And I said, sorry, I have to ask you a question. He said, oh, you want to ask me about UFO right away? I said, yes. He saw it in your eyes. He said, yeah, there is things that flies that we don't know. But he didn't tell me. They don't know if it's alien or whatever. But there's things apparently that are detected. And I know you met Fravor. Fravor is fascinating. It makes me sad that we live in a different era now that it used to be a subject that was ridicules. And now it's so cool that I'm very excited to live in that era. Yeah, it's really exciting. But still, the governments are kind of behind the times on that aspect. They're not transparent and they don't communicate well. It saddens me to think the possibility that the US government might be in possession of something that they don't tell the world about because they're just scared. It's because they don't know what the hell it is. And they don't want the Chinese to gain the technology or all those kinds of things. Do you think the president of the United States, for example, because the president comes and goes every four or eight years, do you think he would know all the secrets? Or it would be a guy like, for example, Vladimir Putin would know much of it. I don't think the president even knows all the secrets. The US president. I don't think so because they go back and forth every four years. They have the terms, right? So I wasn't sure before, but I think I could trust the previous United States president of Donald Trump that if he knew, he would probably tweet about it. Perhaps. So I think from the you know, I've worked with DARPA, I work with DOD, Clearance, and I think from the perspective, if you see the world as fundamentally a dangerous world where secrets are important to have from a military perspective, I think it's very unsafe to tell the president of the United States that you have this kind of technology. So if you think of the world in that way, I hate that that's how that world is viewed, because ultimately I think what's more powerful than the military secrets, and I hope that actually is what will happen in the 21st century, is what's more powerful is to inspire people, inspire the young Elon Musk's of the world to create cool new things. If we have technology that we've have come have encountered that we don't understand, that should only be inspiration to develop that kind of stuff. It shouldn't be seen as military as a military threat as a secret to hold on to. I think secrets. I hope we more and more let go of the idea that there are secrets that give us advantage. You know, like in the tech sector, people are more and more releasing the software, making it open source. Like secrets don't make sense. They share the knowledge, right? Share the knowledge. Like being afraid to share the knowledge, I think, I hope, is an old idea. It's more, yeah, when you make it, things more compartmentalized, you know? Well, yeah, that's the other thing is the bureaucracy of government is like people only know their own little thing and they don't spread the information. It doesn't travel well. I mean, there's a lot of just inefficiencies there. It makes me sad. It makes me sad because the science, the engineering that happens in governments like Lockheed Martin developing the different airplanes that they use for military applications, that's some of the most incredible engineering ever. And it's secret because they're afraid to share it with the Russians and the Chinese and so on. But on that topic, I do think somebody like Vladimir Putin would know, probably know some stuff. My God, my God. I would love to know what he knows. But then again, you never know because even he is, you know, people think of him as an exceptionally powerful person, but he's also just managing a bunch of tribes. His power is very limited. He's trying to hold together a bunch of greedy, power hungry, mad men. That's right. OK. And he's trying to establish a balance. He might not know everything. So I hope this changes because I think there's nothing more exciting about. I don't even know if there is a human that knows, you know what I mean? Like this idea that there are some civilization, alien civilization that that land on the White House and say, Hi, I come to meet the prison. I like why would they do that? You know what I mean? It's kind of absurd. You know, well, I do think that actually, I mean, that's one possibility, right? Because Lartre, you know, if an alien civilization really wanted to contact us, I think everybody would know. So I think what we're if if there's any kind of interaction between humans and aliens, I think most likely what we're interacting with is a crappy like probe drone thing that kind of just like like it's like this. Yeah, yeah. This is this dumb thing. You know, we're not interacting with the aliens. I think just like just like for us, I think humans aren't when we venture out into space. The first thing that's going to be aliens is our robots. It's not us humans because we keep sending robots out. So they're going to like they're going to make decisions about humans by looking at the robots. The famous Grays. The Grays. Maybe they are robots. Maybe it's all BS, too. You know? Yeah, yeah. So I don't know. I don't know what that interaction actually would look like if aliens really wanted to reach out, really communicate. And I don't know if we're able to actually communicate with them. That's one of the sad things. We may not be able to that we might the aliens might already be here and we might just not even know know how to see them or know how to communicate with them. There's so much misinformation and sometimes there is people that are very credible that that that made crazy claims. You know, like you don't know what to believe. You know, like like Paul Elyar, the Minister of Defense of Canada, said that there is many alien rays that ever could. That's what he said. Research it. And that that scientist from I think Israel recently have said something about Trump. He was keeping secret or Medvedev. You're from Russia. Medvedev have been caught in like during a break in between interviews to talks about how it's like men in black, so to speak. I don't know. He didn't look like he was joking, but I don't know if he was saying that. Yeah, you can check on YouTube. It's it went viral. Yeah, there's a lot of things like that. Sometimes I'm like or Bob Lazar. I'm like, imagine if it's true, man. Yeah, imagine if we're like a fish in the water. We live in our own world. And sometimes there's a fisherman that grabbed the fish. Yeah, they came out of the water and threw it back in the water and the fish goes back to the other fish. It's like, hey, there's someone that that take me out of the water. Then I've seen things that I did not. Imagine if it's true. Like we like. Yeah. And one other thing like I wanted to ask you because you were consciousness. How about dreams? What is a dream? Yeah, well, I'm more and more. I don't know if you're paying attention to this. There's no it's become more acceptable in the scientific community to do large scale studies of psychedelics, for example. And there's a lot of connection between psychedelics and dreams. It's very similar states. There's a lot our mind does when it detaches itself from reality, that it can just explore a lot of different ideas. It's very possible that dreams is you're traveling somewhere. And the same thing with psychedelics. You're traveling somewhere in a different not traveling to physical space. It's the other dimensions that we're talking about. You're traveling some other through some other dimension to meet some other creature. People talk with DMT that they meet some elves. I've never done. I'd like to. I don't know if there's a safe legal way to do it, but they all talk about meeting elves and creatures like entities. They core. Who are they? What's what is this? Is it because they're higher or it's because they're actually meeting something? And maybe there's no difference. I mean, that who knows exactly. And that's takes us right back to us not being able to really understand how our mind works. I work in artificial intelligence. It's clear that we understand so little about intelligence, some basic things about intelligence. Just at the at the very sort of basic first principles level, we don't understand what it means to to reason, to think, to assimilate pieces of knowledge together from the from the basics to the complex. We don't understand it. We don't understand how the human mind does it. We don't understand how the human mind is able to take incredible waterfall of information and filter cleanly into just like clean. You only see the things that are important and are able to stay together and be able to reason about the world. And at the same time have moments of like genius, of creativity. Like what is that? That also, you know, people writers talk about that, that they're, you know, they're almost like communicating with a muse. Like, where do ideas come from? Yeah, this is the Joe Rogan philosophy. But I do know that past civilization were a lot of them were based on shamanism. And you know what? I think it's sad is if someone drink alcohol and when he's drunk, he's going to commit like create like like murders or something. We're going to blame the person. Right. We're going to say that's his fault. It's not the fault of alcohol. However, if someone does psychedelic or any things that is illegal and do something crazy, now we're going to put the fault on on psychedelic. You know what I mean? And perhaps the person itself is the reason why, you know, he's been doing these things. You know what I mean? So, yeah, it's fascinating how like society, you know, like in Canada, they just legalize marijuana. Yeah. Marijuana is legal. But before that, before they did it, like if you talk, for example, to my dad, my dad is against it. Like because the whole mentality is like it's drug, it's bad. But drinking a glass, you know, drinking a beer, it's fine. I mean, what is you know what I mean? What is good? What is bad? And I guess you think chocolate could be bad as well for your health. Or I mean, I'm going to the extreme now, but what is good? What is bad? If you use it for recreation, you use it for an experience for to learn about yourself. It's like it's the line is very tiny. You know, there are some countries that drugs are all legal. You know what I mean? And I don't know the stats, but I would I would be interesting to know if they have more crimes there than other countries where it's more strict. I would I would be interesting to know about that. It's fascinating me. Yeah. And I mean, we humans kind of just come up with arbitrary lines of what's good, what's bad, that applies with drugs, that applies with anything that applies with animals. For example, we talked about carnivore diet. Maybe the time we live in now will be remembered for the cruelty to animals, for example. And I believe this the 21st century will be remembered for our cruelty to robots that eventually there will be a civil rights movement for robots. The ones who choose to be conscious, the ones who have consciousness will say we deserve rights to we deserve to be treated with respect to. How about the people we put in jail? I mean, I think in the future we'll look back and we'll think of ourselves being stupid to put people in jail instead of trying to fix the problem at the base. Of course, now we're I guess it's our ignorance that made it in a way that we cannot sometimes understand what makes sometimes a psychopath a psychopath or a murderer, a murderer. But, you know, if we can pinpoint the problem and take care of it before, you know what I mean? Or made it in a way that we can reestablish that person in the society, you know, who knows, you know, what was the future is old. It's interesting. We live in an interesting time. You mentioned your father. What have you learned from your dad? You mentioned he was an important part of your childhood. My dad is amazing. I grew up. We didn't have a lot of money, but it doesn't mean if I'm born in a nice country that always nice thing happened. You know, my dad, for me, is a big role model because I see him to to my life facing a lot of adversity. You know, he he stopped drinking when I was a teenager. He was an alcoholic and I seen him struggle to that, you know, and it was very, very hard. And I've seen him work like crazy hours, like come up, leave in the morning, come home at night, burned out because of work through almost all his life to the point that it became. A slave of the system. Yes, it became an habit and a normal way of living. And it made me realize that I've learned a lot from my father. He taught me perseverance, hard work, you know, when you face adversity, you know, to never give up until you achieve it. But also, he taught me a lesson that. In a way that I don't want to be like him, even if he is happy. It's because I realize I don't think he knows anything else like he works through all his life. And I don't want to live to work. I want to work for it for you know what I mean? I want to decide when I work, you know, I feel like like he he lived to work instead of working for a living. And perhaps it's because he did not have choice. He was the older of his family. They had they were nine kids. His dad, my grandfather died when he was young, so he had to become the father of the family and work to put money on the table. So perhaps that what made him that way. And he became like I can have it for him. My dad taught me when I was at school, I was bullied at school. He's the first one who initiated me to martial art. He taught me karate. My dad, my dad was a black belt in Kyoko Shin karate as well. But because he was working too much, he didn't have time to teach me. And I needed self-defense in order to defend myself. I have a winning a great carer in mixed martial art, but in the in the schoolyard, that's a good record. My record is not very good. When you're a kid and you're about seven, eight years old and you're facing bullied bullies that are two to three years older than yourself, it's not the same thing than when you're 25 and the guy is 28. So there is a big discrepancy in terms of maturity. So my dad taught me introduced me to karate. Then he didn't have time to teach me. Then he put me in a school with a teacher. It was Jean Couture. And I grew up with a lot of anger. And there were two persons I was afraid going up. It was my dad. My dad was very severe, very strict with me. And I'm glad he was because I could have become very bad. I could have become chosen on a different path. People see me as a nice guy. And I am a nice guy. I try to be a good role model, but I could easily have turned towards our own. There's darkness somewhere in there. Yes, there are a lot. And a lot of my friends have chosen that path. And unfortunately, they are not with me today. Even if I'm from Canada and Canada seems like the nicest country in the world. Like I said, even if you live in a nice country, not always nice thing. It depends on the situation. But that's what my dad taught me. And he gave me that because I'm very good at learning by observing people. And by observing him, I see the struggle he had with alcoholism and what he did. The pain sometimes that he inflicted to us, to my family. But how he turned, he did that 180 degree. And I really admire that. And I know it was very, very hard for him. And he did it. For me, that's a great role model for me. So with your dad being an engine of basically hard work and you finding a balance of being able to work your ass off, but also to be able to enjoy a piece of chocolate. What is a perfect day in the life of George St. Pierre look like? So like if you were to go through a day that's very productive, but also one that makes you sit back and enjoy and say that was a good day. What's that look like? What are we talking about? When do you wake up? What do you eat? What do you do? It changed over the years. When I was younger, I had a good day. It was like a good training session or achieving a good thing in my training. And that's why I was very good at it because I was obsessed. I think to be good at something, you need to become obsessed. And to me, performing in my training was everything. When I had a bad training session, I didn't tell my training partner. I was acting like because of my ego, I didn't tell nobody. I was like, hey, then I go in the locker room and like, man, then I'm playing the training in my mind. I'm saying, I should have done this, should have done that. And it haunts me. It haunts me, man. It's a training and it haunts me until the next training session when I can redeem myself. That's how it is. When we used to train all together back in Canada, we had David Loiseau, we had Patrick Côté, we had Dennis Kang, Steve Vigneault, Jonathan Goulet. They were all like the best guys in Canada that were training with each other. Before, we were training in different gyms, but once a week, I made it in a way that I contacted everybody that we all joined forces and we exchanged ideas and we trained with each other. So a friendly, I would say friendly competition. It was not malicious, but it was hard training. Our goal was to improve, but it wasn't very competitive. And when that day you used to get out of the training session with a bad performance for me, it used to haunt me until the following week when I could give it back and perform better with the guy that I had the most trouble with. That's how it was. And that's how you get better. But it was not a training where we were trying to do malicious things to one another. You know what I mean? It needs to be playful, but playful but competitive. When I had a good training session because the sparring was on a Friday, I had the best weekend in the world. I was going out with my friends, playing, partying, and having fun. That was my ideal day back in the day. Today has changed. My life has changed. I am not the same person I used to be when I went on my knees and begged the UFC for a title shot. I am wealthy, I am healthy, most importantly. That's the most important thing. And as good as my career was, my private life is a million times better. People ask me sometimes, they always wonder, they try to ask me. And it's normal. A lot of people are curious and they are reporters. And in the sport of mixed martial arts, we say we play basketball, we play soccer, but we don't play fighting. So when you expose your private life, we've seen that happen in the fight with sometimes Conor McGregor and Khabib. Your competitor knows that he cannot get to you, so what he will do, he will try to get to someone that you love. So man, I never expose my private life. I never post on Instagram of my family, of my stuff. That's the reason why. Because I'm in the business of fighting. And people know that they cannot get to me. And I believe that because I was bullied when I was young, I didn't realize that when I was young, but it helps me deal with the mental warfare that I had to face later on in my life in mixed martial arts, because it's a very ego test sport and there's a lot of intimidation. And I was used to this thing when I was young, so it does not get to me. However, the good way to get to me, go try to get to someone I love. Now man, I'm going to go crazy. You know what I mean? And I'm aware of that. So in order to protect myself, because I'm aware I'm a public person, so I try to always keep my surroundings in the private. One of the ways that your friend, mine, Joe Rogan, has been an inspiration, he's got an incredible family. And he for the most part, it started to change recently, actually it's kind of interesting, but for the most part, he kept it pretty secret. He's a comedian, comedians talk about everything, he doesn't really talk about it. And there's something to that. It preserves the magic of the silence of the private life. And I think it can affect the development of the kid, if the kid grew up being, oh he's the son of that guy instead of being his own person. You know what I mean? So for me it's very important. Like my parents are older, it's fine, but it taught me a big lesson. When I'm with my friend at the dinner or anything, I talk with the person, always share a thing, but when I'm talking, I'm aware of the audience I'm in front. Yeah, but oftentimes those people are just incredible. It kind of makes me sad that there's a lot of people that love you, right? And there are a lot of really incredible people and you'll never get to really know their story. I don't know, for me it makes me sad. You see them at airports and stuff, people will tell me they listen to this podcast or something like that. And I can tell they're incredible people and it's like a little goodbye of a possible friend. It makes me sad. It makes me lonely. It's almost like celebrity is a lonely thing. So the higher the celebrity, the more lonely you become in some kind of way. But of course you have that little gem of a private life. Personally, I believe every relationship, I don't like to use this term, but it's always a give and take relationship. You can gain something and the person, it could be something not materialistic, like something always a good, confident, someone that can give me good advice. It's a word I would say like extensional. If a pilot has a copilot, the copilot has an extensional relationship with him. So he knows if he gets sick or he faint, he's there to make sure, he's there to help. And I think in every relation, it's about compatibility, but it's about extensionality, right? In a way that if that person is extensional. And sometimes we talk about love, you know, like sometimes I think, is it a BS word or not? Because I myself sometimes look at myself in the mirror and when I do stupid thing, sometimes I love myself a lot and sometimes I don't. You know what I mean? Because I'm angry at myself. I've done stupid thing. That means sometimes love could be fluctuating. You know what I mean? How about in relationship, sometimes people they say they love each other, but then when they divorce, they go, oh, I want the house and the dog and the kids stay with me. And you know what I mean? If you love, by definition, if you really love someone, and let's say you're an old man and you love a woman and she decide to leave you for a younger man. If you really love her, you're going to help her pack and leave. But in our society, sometimes we want to hone something. To me, love includes the missing somebody, the losing somebody, the anger at somebody. It's all the passion, feelings towards somebody. That's all love. I, you know, it's all part of the thing. It's the ups and downs. It's the sad thing is when the feelings towards a person, the ups and downs go away, the forgetting. That's the opposite of love. So the opposite of love isn't hate. To me, the opposite of love is forgetting. And that's a much bigger, the depth of human connection. That's how I see love. So sometimes I try to stay positive and I've been asked how I try to, because I have the image of someone who's positive, but I go through my own demon as well. However, we talk about love when I was young. You know, like I didn't love who I was at first. That's how I love. I learned to kind of love myself. Like I didn't, I didn't when I was going through bullying, I was, I believe I was bullied because I didn't love myself. I, because I project a very bad image of what I think of myself. I was a kid that lacked a lot of confidence. I was looking down when I was walking. I shrugged my shoulder. When someone was talking to me, I was avoiding eye contact. So I was a very easy target for bullies. And I think bullies are like predatory animal in nature. They will hunt the easier prey. They would don't, they don't go, the lion don't go for the alpha bull. They go for the one who's hold or who's sick, the weakest one. And bullies are the same in society, I believe. And I didn't like to be bullied, of course, but I didn't like the person that I was. But I found out through martial art, the respect and my coach was extraordinary to me. He taught me discipline and self-strength. And I found out that I needed to, in order to love myself, I needed to change myself. Because I didn't, when I looked at myself in the mirror, I didn't like what I saw. So I decided to become like someone that I would love. So I tried to look people straight up and trying to showcase a more confident image that I had. And it was hard in the beginning because I didn't really believe in it, but I faked it until kind of I make it. So when I was walking at school, more and more I was learning how to become more confident. And I was like taking charge, the teacher was asking questions. At first I was never answering, I was like this, waiting always to be the last. Then I was, hey, I know what the answer, this is the answer. I got out of my comfort zone, so to speak. And I wish I would tell you that I got out of bullying because a Hollywood story, I used martial art to beat up all the bullies. But it's not how it happened to me. It happened because I changed myself from the inside out. And I learned how to, because I didn't love myself in the beginning, I learned how to become like someone that I love. And even now, like I'm by no mean perfect, I do a lot of stupid thing, but I learn as a person. And even I do have something stupid, I'm like, shoot, I did something stupid. At least I can apologize to the person if I realize. And I know that I'm not the person I was in the past. I'm the person that I am right now. So I can learn and become that image of the person that I love. So in a way, the reason I'm trying to be positive and I'm able to stay positive sometime in life is because I'm always trying to be like that person that I love. And I think if you don't look yourself in the mirror and don't love yourself or don't see any positive future for yourself, how can you change your environment if you cannot change yourself? You know what I mean? You will never be happy if you're not happy when you look at yourself in the mirror. So change yourself first, then change your, you know, it's not the environment that can change for yourself. You have to go from the inside out, you know? This I learned through martial art. I had a coach who was incredible. He used to drill these ideas in my head and give me confidence, you know, like this telling me all these beautiful things about myself. And now he's dead now, unfortunately, peace to him. But he was incredible, incredible. He was very, very strict. I was afraid of him. I was afraid of my dad and afraid of him. He couldn't teach nowadays like he used to teach me because he would be probably in jail, you know? But I'm glad he did it because for the time being, that's what I needed. And I would never have had that career I had in mixed martial art without this because I would never have got out of my comfort zone. It would have been impossible. And in order to improve in life, you need to get out of your comfort zone. It's hard, very hard to do. And strive to be the person that you can love. That's beautifully put, George. If you were to give advice to a young person today about life, what would you tell him? If he takes life with the same mentality that I do, if he has the same taste of things that I have, I would tell him, you know, for sport, for life in general, I would say, if you will have a dream, you know, like make everything in your power and work very hard, you know, never take no for an answer and go through hell in order to achieve it. Don't work hard only, but work smart. That's, I think, the problems with a lot of people. They work hard. They can work hard. They burn themselves. They don't work smart, whether it is in science and business, they make bad choices or they're badly informed in sport. How many guys I've seen ruin their career in the gym? They spar so hard, they ruin themselves in the gyms. They leave their career in the gyms. What I would say to, for example, because my field of expertise is in sport, of mixed martial art, I would say to a young kid, make your training playful. You know, when you get ready for competition, you need to try to recreate those elements that make you go outside of your comfort zone. But in everyday life in general, make your training playful. Don't make it like a hardcore competition about who's winning, who's losing. Make it playful. So it will increase your... because you will not be afraid of getting hurt or losing. You will be tempted to try more things and it will make you become more creative. You know, that brings up another question about learning. So you value knowledge and you're exceptional at basically being very good at learning and figuring stuff out. New things or going deeper on the things you already know. So what advice would you have for how to learn effectively? How, you know, you say work smart. How do you figure this game out? I believe the best way to learn is learning from other people's mistake. However, I'm not perfect and I've learned from my mistakes as well. And sometimes it took me a few mistakes to learn the same thing. But especially in the sport of mixed martial art, because we're talking about the failure, it could have very serious outcome on someone's life and well-being. So it's crucial to try to learn from other people's mistakes. Do you study others? Yes, every fight I've studied my opponent and I've studied myself as well to know what... How my strength mix versus my opponent weaknesses and how can I make the fight go in a way that I'm taking my opponent outside of his comfort zone. Very often people are good at studying their opponent, but they're not good at looking at themselves in the mirror and knowing what they should do in order to maximize their odds of success, right? That's why I always thought for me it was important to not be the best at one thing, but be very good at everything. That's why I always seek advice from the best in every discipline. Like I wrestle with the best wrestler I could be with. I box with the best boxers. I practice karate with the best karate fighters. Same thing in Jiu-Jitsu. I train Jiu-Jitsu with the best Jiu-Jitsu guys. However, when I mix everything and mix martial art, because I'm very competent in every area, so when I'm fighting someone I'm very good at identifying where he's the less competent. I know for a fact that because I'm competent everywhere, if I can bring the fight where he's outside of his comfort zone, it increases my odds of winning. There's no certainty. It's all about odds, I believe, because there is always an X factor that you do not control. It's fascinating to see you actually because you've been a student of movement. You've been exploring all kinds of gymnastics, all that kind of stuff. There's something reminiscent to like Conor McGregor is one other martial artist that's kind of explored movement, been a scholar of movement. At least from my perspective, it's very sort of Bruce Lee-like. It's almost making a study of the human body and all the possible things you can do. Is there a philosophy behind that that you have? You talk about Bruce Lee, man. You say that best. He changes my life too. He was ahead of his time. Yeah, incredible. A lot of people talk to me and ask me, is Bruce Lee would have been able to fight in UFC? I don't think so. I don't know. I think he was a martial artist. He could have defended himself, but to say that he could have competed amongst the elite fighter, perhaps in his time, but for sure, if you put him in UFC right now, the sport has improved incredibly since then. But in terms of philosophy, Bruce Lee was amazing. Just to prove that he was ahead of his time, he was talking about using your longest weapon against your opponent's nearest point. And we see that kick that got popularized by John Jones, the sidekick to the tie. His longest weapon against your nearest point. In boxing is the jab, but in MMA, when you can use all your weapon, that's the kick to the tie. And I feel there is kind of three dimensions in martial art. There is the philosopher like Bruce Lee. There is the choreographed people. For example, you see in movies, the stunt people, they're incredible. Or the one that does the forms and karate, like jumping, spin kick, back kick, acrobatic stuff, mixed martial art. They are unbelievable. And there is also the one that competes in fighting. That's what I do. I personally specialize in. Well, you also do the philosophy. I do a little bit of philosophy, but that's a consequence. I guess we all practice the three dimensions because martial art, I would say, whether you want it or not, you have to touch these three dimensions. But you will specialize in one. I specialize through my life in fighting, like the real thing in terms of fighting, competition. Of course, if you do martial art, you will be able to defend yourself because it's a self defense. However, you might not be able to fight as an elite and the most prestigious organization. And you might not be able to perform the stunt that, for example, the stuntmen have done in the series I was playing in the Falcon and Winter Soldier. These guys are incredible. They're like real life superhero things they do. To me, it's fascinating. It's amazing. And also Bruce Lee, the philosopher. How many hours he took thinking about these stuff? I'm sure he did not just came out of nowhere. He was thinking. That's mean he slept on this. How many hours? It's just unbelievable. He's like water, my friend. How many times has he thought about water going to bed before he said that? Let me ask a very important fundamental question about martial arts. We're both wearing a suit and tie. Joe Rogan thinks that wearing a tie is a huge disadvantage. Is it a clip on or is it an actual tie? It's an actual tie. So do you agree or disagree with Joe Rogan that wearing a tie is a martial arts significant disadvantage in terms of combat in a combat scenario? In a fight, I think it would be a disadvantage. Yes. Okay. I work as a security bouncer in nightclubs and event when I was 18 years old. Yes. And sometimes I had to work in certain event that I was in suit and tie. I never had to use my force to take someone out when I was in suit and tie. But if I would have had to before going to the table to physically take the guy out, I would have removed my tie. And I would have removed my vest for sure. And I would have called backup for sure. And I would have probably used the element of surprise to be first on the guy. Yes. When you're in a bar, same thing. You call backup first and you make sure you ask the waitress before to clean the table before you go. Yeah. And when you go, you have to use the element of surprise. Yeah. Because fighting in mixed martial arts and fighting in the street, it's two different things. And yes, I'm a mixed martial art competitor. That's what I've done all my life. But I had a lot of street fight in my life. A lot when I was in. What's the difference? Oh my God. It's a huge difference. There are guys that if I would have a choice to fight, for example, certain guys in UFC in a street fight and fight like other guys that are not in UFC, I would maybe sometimes pick guys that are not in UFC, not necessarily. Because in the street fight, there's no referee that says go. It's the element of surprise. And when you're a nice guy, you're not the aggressor. You always have the element of surprise. That's what it taught me. Oh, interesting. Yes, because if... Aggression, you're sacrificing the surprise. The person will not come punch you without warning. It needs to trigger something. It's something that needs to be triggered before. So if someone comes because he's looking for trouble, there's a sign that he's looking for trouble. So I was just talking with Bass Ruth this weekend about it. And I saw that every every martial art comes from like some martial arts are from exclusive vehicles for competition. Yes, like sport karate, like certain martial arts. But traditional martial arts are for the street, are for self-defense. And I started my background in Kyokushin karate. So it's for and I did Japanese Jiu Jitsu. So my background before I even start training for mixed martial art, my background is in self-defense. And it's very important to understand that in a street fight, the element of surprise is everything. And there are no rules. You can go for the eyes, the necks. It's a surprise. Total ball game. You know what I mean? You have the chair, the beard. There's so much more thing going on. So the idea of because you are a UFC fighter, you think you're invincible. This is BS. Anybody can come. Like if a big guy who punched very hard, most people don't know how to punch. By the way, they don't know how to make a fist and throw it in a forward direction. But if someone knows how to do it, I don't care who you are. If you could be Francis and Genu, someone come behind your head and bang or let's say there's an argument and you get surprised by a punch. You can beat you up and lose a fight. It doesn't matter. The element of surprise is everything. So you were saying remove all the sources of the elements of surprise. Clear the bar, remove the tie. I still disagree with you about the tie. But just for your information, if someone comes looking for trouble and you see me do this and going sideways, that's my position that I'm thinking maybe something will happen. And I'm about that's a good thing about doing the element. I'm about to punch you or to do to do something to take care of this. See, to flip the table on you then wearing a tie is communicating the nice guy image. So it actually gives you the freedom for more elements of surprise by wearing the tie. If you take it off, that's more you're limiting your options because nobody's going to expect the guy in the tie to do anything. I'm a big believer that sometimes it's not only materialism. It's what you project. That's true. Let's say I had troubles in a bar and I was able to deflect. The guy was looking for trouble talking to me and I was able to deflect his whole aggressivity by saying like, hey, man, that's a nice shirt. Where did you get it? Like saying like something was stupid like this. Then it kind of break, break the momentum. And the guy was looking for trouble. I don't want to fight you. I don't want to fight you. But I'm not going to wait until you pull you make the first move because the minute you touch me, you push me or you touch me, you declare war. And the war is unleashed, my friend. And I'm taking you out of order with the necessary force. Of course, you know, that's the thing with martial art. If you use the necessary force to take out a problem, it's OK. But if you you know, you take advantage of it, that's when it's not all right because it's a weapon. So if someone comes up to me, that's my position. And now I'm assessing the situation. You know, that's that's how they teach in self-defense here. Never put your hands down. I was there. Because I'm down or boom. Like what this is, this is very important and you never you always your center line on the side. Yeah, like this. If someone knows martial art, he will recognize that pattern. But if you go like if someone talked to you and you go like this, that's mean you're telling the guy that you want to fight. You don't want to do that. You don't want to. Yeah, that's that's that's you know, that's that's the position because your hand are here. You know, whatever you can do, you're here. Well, also your ear tells a story. It's not everybody that knows that. However, it's some people might think that it's my mom grabbed me by the ear and pulled me because I didn't listen to her. You know, a real fight in the street and a fight in the mixed martial arts is a different ballgame. What do you think is the best martial art to prepare you for street fighting? You know, people often kind of have this discussion of jiu-jitsu, maybe boxing, maybe wrestling. Do you think we talk about a young person studying martial arts to prepare themselves for a street fight? It's often much different than a mixed martial art fight. And I know there is a lot of BS in the world of martial arts, like self-defense, stuff like that. But I believe self-defense is very important in a way to understand the situation, to understand those those situations that might occur, how to deal with it. Because not necessarily that we talk about the technicality, we talk about the tactically, the tactics. You know, like when I'm talking to you about the element of surprise is important. This is not technique. A technique is a punch or techniques that I physically will use to enable my opponent, my aggressor. Tactic is the tactic I'm telling you about is in a street fight. If someone is looking for trouble and I feel the heat rising as the conversation goes, that's the position I'm going to take. And I have to be first. I cannot let him go first. So I have to strike first or do something. This is the first thing that generally I have to agree on. After that, of course, there is the knowledge. If you're a professional fighter, you have a huge advantage. Once the fight is started, the war is declared. Now everything goes. But generally speaking, the person that will intervene physically, that will have the first blow or the first, you know, the first punch will have a huge advantage. It's like doing a 100 meter race and having a head start, you know, and that you can't prepare for with any martial art. Yeah. And if I'm a smart guy, I know how to fight. If a guy like an heavyweight champion comes to me or like like like, you know, I know. I know what to do to disable him. I like boom or here and then the neck, you know, like if you if you blind him, what is he going to do? You know what I mean? So or a bottle. You know what I mean? So the element of surprise is it's everything. So that's why it's always always good to be the nice guy and not looking for trouble, because if you're not looking for trouble, you have the head start. You have the option of having an head start. So what you're saying is being a nice guy is the is the best form of self-defense, maybe a little humor. Yes. You know, I have learned that I've learned that when I was a kid. Yeah, I was about maybe seven, six, six years old. We used to to play in much as a lot of snow. We used to play king of the mountain. Yeah, that's the first combat lesson that I've learned in my life. And I managed somehow. It was a lot of kids. I managed to get on the top of the mountain and another guy came in on top of the mountain and he was angry that before I was there before him. When you play king of the mountain, it was a mountain of snow. You don't strike each other. We just wrestle and push. And I managed to be first. And when he came, he says to me, say, OK, you want to you want to fight? And I said, yeah, I don't know what he means. Like I want to fight. You want to wrestle? I say yes. He punched me right in the face. Boom. And then I and then I fall on the bottom of the mountain. Then when I fall down, I remember that vision in my life because it's it's I will remember that for the rest of my life. I'm about to stand up and I see the blood coming out of my nose. I see that the snow is red because my nose is bleeding. Now I remember the element of surprises, everything. My first street fight, I lost it. I got I did get knocked up, but I got I got dropped on the bottom of the snow mountain. And I was like, you got me because I was not expecting my hand. I was not expecting a punch. So from there, when I felt the heat of an injury, an argument or something was not right, I always stroke first. I didn't win all my fight because sometimes there were more than one guys on me, you know. But I think it's important to not be the aggressor. So you have the element of surprise and always use that in your favor. That's so brilliant. Let me go from the very practical to the most impractically huge question about the meaning of life. You said that one great depths of unrelenting sorrow punctuated by great peaks of joy and liberation. The result is delicious. So what do you think is the meaning of this whole journey that we're on this life? What makes life delicious to me? You know, satisfaction is the end for me. Like, like, like I always if I'm satisfied, that's mean I have no nothing to live for. I'm talking I'm not talking only about my career, about I talk about my life. What do you want in your life? You want you want kids, you want a family, you want to be champion. What do you want in your life? You have you have like a long term goal, short term goal. In mixed martial art, I achieve what I needed to achieve. I'm satisfied. I'm no longer the same George St. Pierre than when I was begging for a title shot on my knees. I move on for it from it. Now I had a chance to go into movies. Now that same insane, that same insane drive that had to be the champion in the world. I put it into acting like I'm having a lot of acting class now. And luckily for me, the timing was amazing. I got I got cast for the Falcon and the Winter Soldier that is on Disney Plus Channel. It's a huge, huge project to be part of for me because it's like you play basketball, you have a chance to go for the NBA right away. I was very lucky. The timing was just too perfect. And so you need to constantly challenging yourself and having goals to achieve, you know, like that. Keep your brain activated. I keep working. And the proof of that is that you see sometimes some old people like when they retire very often, sometimes you see that they got sick and they die or because they they. It's either because sometimes we think we we we we certainly will make benefits, we'll do something good for them by. Making that work and giving them a break. So in our mind, we're like, oh, he's going to be able to relax. But in their mind, it's not good because they're not busy. They have nothing to live for. Like my dad is used to work all the time and he has always something to do. He's retired now. I myself now call him by force to find him some job. Hey, dad, can you come in my house? I have this thing to repair. I don't know how to do it. So he gives him it gives him a reason not to live on because he has other things to do. But what I mean is also in life, I think you always don't be afraid to aim high. Don't don't be afraid to fix your objective very high and never be able to reach it. Be afraid of reaching your goals, essentially. I mean, you always have to keep moving it out. You think there's a it's an interesting question because you've been acting in some really exciting things. Do you think there's a dramatic role where it's basically, you know, you go full Robert De Niro in Taxi Driver. Do you think there'll be a full length feature film with George St. Pierre? I like it. There is level to this thing. I'm aware that I have to restart as a white belt. And for some people, it could be discouraging. But for me, man, it's great. I love it. I freaking love it. I embrace it because everybody told me like I would never be able to do it. And it's fine. But the and also the outcome of a failure in the sport of mixed martial art is much more serious than the outcome of a failure for a movie, for example. For for if you say when you should zag in a fight, you get knocked out. If you say when you should zag and unset, cut, we'll do it again. And I know that I will be most likely be true chosen for action martial art roles because that's my background. There is this new trend in Hollywood now when they want someone to play an Italian guy, they're going to choose a real Italian person. When they want someone to play a Russian guy, they're going to choose someone who has a real Russian background. Now they want a real martial art fighter. I've done fighting all my life. I just need to improve my acting skill. But when I train in acting, I get myself out of my comfort zone. I'm not playing a role of a martial art guy. I'm playing like romance, comedy, drama. So when I go on set and playing. The role of a badass martial art guy, it's easier. So like in training for a fight, I always make my preparation harder than the actual task. I would love to see where I don't know if you've seen the wrestler with Make Your Work. Oh, yeah. Those types of films. I would love to. I would love to you do something like that. If not now, then in 10, 20 years, I could see that. That would be amazing. There's levels to the game, right? Yes, it's gradual. And I'm aware that I don't want to take something on my shoulder that I won't be able to deliver. It's like a fighter wants to go for a title shot right away. It could very well break him. You know what I mean? And I don't want to do that because I know I've done some gigs in the past, but I was not focusing on it because I was focusing on competing as a martial art. Martial art is in competition in MMA, but now I take it very seriously. So I cannot do the same mistake again because I've done some stuff. I've done it for the money and it was good. It was fun to be beat up by Jacques-Claude Van Damme, Steven Seagal and everything. But my acting was not on point, you know, at that time. So every time I'm going to come back from now on on screen, you need to be sharp because you cannot mess it up. If you mess it up, it's like a loss on your record. You're not taken seriously. So that's how I see it. And it's very fun because I had the chance to talk to a lot of guys. And on top of all the class that I'm having, like a few days ago, I was with Danny Trujo. And I always seek the advice of actors when I see some of them, because I really admire how they do, you know, how they project their emotion. And I asked him, Danny Trujo, I said to him, he's an amazing guy, by the way, very nice guy. And I asked him, I say, how do you do to be because you scared the hell out of me? How do you do to be so scary? Like, what is your trick? And he tells me, he's like, George, if you threaten things, if you threat someone and you scream at him, I'm going to kill you. It's not as scary if you're smiling and you say, I'm going to kill you. Like, and he says also to me that another advice he gave me is like, when you say this, think about you killing him for real. That how you hate him and how you're going to kill him. So the camera will take the emotion out. Don't try physically to do that. That's the mistake I used to do before. I used to physically show that I'm strong and angry and to be mean. So these are just an example of tricks that I learned sometimes when I met an actor. I always try to learn from everybody that I met in my life. It's a difficult journey because then you have to go to some dark places as a person because you really have to imagine some dark things. It's fascinating, actually. I think a lot of the actors, they have sometimes problems because of that. Because now I understand why. It's like if you work on your bicep, your bicep will grow, right? It's because it is the stress that you put on it that will make it grow, right? Emotions, I believe, are the same way. If you're used to dig inside of you down deep to make your negative, depressive emotion come out, if something bad in your life happens, you will fall into those emotions much more rapidly than someone who does not that every day. You know what I mean? Because it's like a muscle memory. If you program yourself to react a certain way, you will reach that point very often. So that's why sometimes you see some guys, we often blame it on drugs, but I think it's also because of the acting. They're used to be so on the hop top and sometimes they go to the down deep, so they're both extreme, you know? You've got to be psychologically tough. And that's life. I'm so excited to see you challenge yourself in that direction. That's one thing that I'm a little bit afraid that happened to me. I really hope I'll always be having a problem to control my emotion, be too much extreme. I hope it does not happen to me. And if I feel that I'm going towards that, I'm going to give up on my new objective and find something else to achieve. But in your personal life, you want to be real with your emotions. You don't want to. It doesn't. Just like with biceps, you don't want biceps that are too big. You are real, but you are extreme real. And that's what I think sometimes could happen to actors when they go too much into their emotion. We talk about like sometimes guys that commit suicide, perhaps. I don't know because I don't know their real life, but it could be something that they get so much into their character. I didn't understand it at first because I'd never had acting class. But after a while that you have acting class, now you start to realize that, yeah, I understand why some actor gets caught up in their emotion, because that can have an influence on their life, right? You're on a fascinating journey, George. I can't tell you how much it means to me that you'll be so nice to me, that you'll give me so much respect. Just that tells everything I need to know about you as a human being. With everything you've accomplished, you waste all your time and you're so nice to me just as a fellow human being. Man, I have so much respect. I'm so honored. And the energy you give me by just seeing me showing up here, I'll carry that forward for a long time to come, George. I love it. Thank you so much for talking to me. Thank you, Lex, for having me on the show. I've been looking to talk to you for a long time. For me, talking to a guy like you, it's a great learning experience because I always learn. And life is fascinating to me. And all the experience that we have in life, it's something that can make us grow. And this experience for me just makes me grow as well. Plus, we look pretty damn sharp today. Man in black, my friend. Thanks, George. Nice. And hope to see you next time.
 The following is a conversation with George St. Pierre,
 considered by many to be the greatest fighter
 in the history of UFC and MMA, but even more than that,
 one of the greatest martial artists ever.
 Quick mention of our sponsors, Allform, ExpressVPN,
 Blinkist, Theragun, and TheInformation.
 Check them out in the description to support this podcast.
 As a side note, let me say that getting the chance
 to hang out with George, talk to him on the podcast,
 record a quick self-defense video that I'll release soon,
 all while both of us wearing suits,
 was one of the most memorable days of my life.
 In setting all this up, I talked to Joe Rogan,
 and originally we couldn't schedule a chat
 with him and George on the JRE,
 which allowed me to pretend for a brief time
 that George came down to Austin just to see me.
 Who the hell am I?
 In truth, him and Joe probably conspired
 to make me feel special, but that's the point.
 It's inspiring to see George and Joe,
 who are at the top of their field,
 treat others as equals, as human beings,
 no matter who they are, even silly Russians in a suit.
 Meeting George was an honor for me beyond words.
 This is the Lex Friedman Podcast,
 and here's my conversation
 with my long time martial arts hero,
 and now my friend, Mr. George St. Pierre.
 In your fighting career,
 were you more motivated by the love of winning,
 or the fear and hatred of losing?
 I like to win better than I hate to lose,
 because if it would not have been the case,
 I would never have fought in the first place,
 because I don't like to fight at all.
 But you talked about the anxiety,
 the fear, the experience leading up to a fight.
 So to you, ultimately, the reason to go through that
 difficult process is because it feels damn good
 to have your hand raised?
 There is that.
 There is also the fact that martial art
 had been introduced when I was very young,
 and it's probably the best thing I can do in my life.
 Fighting, that's what I do best.
 Also, it provides me of freedom,
 of access of things that most of people do not have,
 but all that as a price.
 And a lot of money,
 I made a lot of money, of course, with it.
 I was maybe predisposed with certain abilities.
 I met incredible mentors throughout my life.
 I worked really hard, and of course,
 I had a lot of chances.
 The stars were all aligned.
 And in order to keep those advantages
 of freedom, money, and glory,
 and access of things that most people don't have,
 and have this dream life that I have,
 I had to sacrifice myself and fight in order to keep it.
 It's very hard to understand,
 because I also believe most fighters are not like me.
 A lot of guys, because I corner a lot of guys,
 and it seems to me that they love their job.
 They enjoyed to go fight in a cage.
 I love to train.
 I love the science of fighting, the sport,
 to be in good shape,
 the confidence that training in mixed martial art gives me.
 However, I do not like the feeling of uncertainty,
 the stress that I have,
 not knowing if I will be badly injured,
 or humiliated, or winning the fight.
 It's, to me, unbearable,
 and that's what takes the most out of me.
 More than brain damage, more than anything,
 that's what takes the most out of me.
 But the thing you get from it is the freedom that you get
 because of the money, but because of the celebrity,
 because of everything that comes with it.
 So you can be the best version of yourself
 because of fighting.
 But at the same time, you've said that,
 quote, I don't believe there's pleasure in life.
 I believe there's only a relief from pain.
 We have to suffer to be on top.
 So isn't there something to just the suffering in itself,
 just doing really difficult shit,
 just to get to the top?
 To explain that, and so people can relate to it
 because not everybody's a fighter.
 I think the best example I can give is
 let's say you haven't eaten for a long time,
 and you're craving, right?
 So you're suffering.
 And then when it's time to eat, finally,
 you're about to eat your favorite dish.
 It's gonna taste so much better.
 So that's why I believe there is always
 some sort of sacrifice before the pleasure.
 And the more sacrifice you do,
 like they say in fighting,
 the bigger the risk, bigger is the reward.
 And I feel that's how it is for me.
 Yeah, I feel that with,
 I've started fasting a little bit
 in the past couple of years,
 and there's nothing as amazing as a delicious meal
 or anything, actually anything,
 any food when you haven't eaten for several days.
 It's kind of incredible.
 And it's not incredible in this simple way
 of finally I get to eat.
 You get to truly experience the beauty
 of what it is to be alive.
 Like that little piece of food,
 you see all the flavors, you feel just the experience of it
 is ultimately of gratitude of how awesome it is to be alive.
 But when you eat many times a day and you're pigging out
 and you don't get to experience that,
 and it's fascinating.
 It's really like fasting is one of the most accessible things
 for people, I think, to experience that kind of pairing
 of hardship to pleasure.
 I agree.
 And in my case, it changed my life on a good way.
 I cannot recommend it to people
 because everybody is different.
 But to fight Michael Bisping, my last fight
 was against the champion in the heavier weight class
 that I used to compete at.
 So I thought that if I would gain weight,
 it would increase my performance.
 And I struggled a lot to gain weight.
 I gained a lot about eight to 10 pounds.
 Normally I walk around 185 pounds.
 And for that fight, I was walking around 195.
 However, I forced myself to eat like six times a day.
 I was on a very strict diet.
 And it didn't feel right to me because I feel
 like I was carrying, a little bit like I was carrying
 a bag on my shoulder.
 And I think it was a bad idea for me
 because when I did the weigh-in and I went on a scale at 185,
 I couldn't go back to my initial weight that was 195
 that I worked so hard for several months to get there.
 So I was 190 pounds, but I couldn't get back.
 And the morning of the fight, I got sick.
 I had like, we didn't know what it was in the beginning
 because in order to know, to find out what it was,
 I needed to do what they call a colonoscopy.
 They put a camera inside of you and to do that,
 they give you something that makes that empty you.
 And I was trying to gain weight, not to lose weight.
 So I told myself, I'm gonna wait after the fight,
 whatever it is, because it was pretty bad.
 It was blood and I didn't know what I was.
 I was very concerned.
 I thought I had maybe cancer.
 I was freaking out.
 So I said, I'm gonna do that fight.
 And then after right away, I'm gonna make a checkup.
 So I did the fight, everything went well.
 I won the fight.
 I went back home.
 I did a colonoscopy and I got diagnosed with ulcer colitis.
 Then I got on very severe medication to get better.
 And I'm not a big fan of medication.
 I always trying to look for more natural way to get better.
 And I found out about fasting
 and it really changed my life.
 I met Dr. Jason Fong,
 was one of the world authority of fasting.
 He treat diabetes patient with fasting.
 And he gave me a program of fasting
 and it really changed my life.
 And right away, what I did is I went in a CAT scan
 to see the difference because it was right after my fight
 with Michael Bisping and I did the CAT scan.
 So I had my muscle mass, bone density,
 fat percentage, water retention.
 It's pretty amazing.
 It can show you which harm has more muscle than the other.
 It's very precise.
 And I did it like two months after.
 So I started doing time restricted eating 16, eight,
 but right away when I started,
 I did three days water fast.
 And the Dr. Jason Fong says
 because I like to train during those days,
 I consume Himalayan salt to make sure,
 because when you sweat, there's a lot of minerals
 to make sure you don't depleted your mineral.
 And when I compared the two results in the CAT scan,
 I found out my biggest concern was to lose muscle mass.
 I found out that I did not lose muscle mass
 instead of losing it, it increased a little bit.
 Even though my weight on the scale was lighter,
 I kept the same muscle mass even increases a little bit.
 My bone density increases a little bit.
 My water retention is the biggest thing that decrease.
 So my inflammation and my fat percentage.
 So basically by looking at the data,
 I found out that by eating so much,
 trying to gain weight to fight my cold,
 I only increases my water retention,
 which is not good because it's like dead weight
 and inflammation on you.
 So what was the actual process of fasting?
 You said 16, eight, time restricted,
 so intermittent fasting,
 but you also mentioned the three day water fast.
 What did that feel like?
 And you also said training during the three day.
 How did that feel?
 Or can you give me some details of this is fascinating?
 So I do three days water fast, four times a year.
 Nice, beautiful.
 For me, I do it, everybody is different,
 but for me, I do it after New Year's
 because during the holidays,
 that's when I eat bad foods and I drink.
 I see it more like a cleansing,
 you know, like a detox, so to speak.
 Mental too, like psychological.
 Yes, I do it after the New Year's,
 right before the summer, cut for the beach.
 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
 After the summer because of the summer,
 I've been partying a little bit,
 sometimes let myself go and right before the holidays.
 And I've tried the doctor,
 Dr. Fong, he says to me, said,
 George, everybody's different
 because I'm a very active person
 and everybody has a different genetic.
 So for me, I feel that three days is the sweet spot
 because I still train during those three days.
 The first two days, I don't change nothing.
 I train on my regular schedule.
 However, on the third day, I modify a little bit.
 I do something more easy and that's how I do it.
 And I've tried before because when I say three days
 is my sweet spot, I've tried to go up to five days.
 But the problems is after my third days,
 I found out that I had a big problem sleeping.
 I get into a hyperactive mode.
 They call that the untargeted mode.
 Like your brain, I mean, it's amazing.
 Your creativity is at its peak,
 but you cannot sleep very well.
 And sleeping, for me, I think it's very important.
 So that's why I do three days.
 For me, it's my sweet spot.
 That's interesting.
 You're right.
 It's the four or five days when you start.
 See, sleep is not important for me.
 So the creativity is really important.
 So it's very interesting the places your mind goes
 after a few days.
 You're right.
 But I mean, what does it do to your mind?
 So you mentioned your body likes it.
 In terms of training, does it,
 do you find that it helps you focus and think?
 I mean, you're one of the great strategic thinkers
 in terms of martial arts.
 Does it help with learning?
 Does it help with thinking?
 Does it help with strategizing and all that?
 Well, unfortunately, I got into fasting after I retired.
 I wish I would have, I really wish people asked me,
 would you have done it during the time that you competed?
 And the answer is yes.
 I think we live in a society that we're bombarded
 by publicity.
 Oh, buy this, eat protein, this, that.
 And fasting, nobody makes money with it
 because there's nothing to sell, you know?
 I think that's why a lot of people have not heard about it.
 And even for myself,
 if someone would have talked to me about fast,
 the benefits of fasting when I was training,
 before I got sick, I would probably have ignored him
 because I'm not, you know, it was, it's hard to believe.
 It sounds ridiculous.
 Don't eat.
 It sounds, yes.
 It's gonna help your mind
 and you're going to gain muscle potentially.
 Exactly.
 And perhaps people have talked to me about it,
 but I kind of, it went in one of my hair
 and got out from the other side, you know?
 But it really changed my life.
 And I was diagnosed with ulcerative colitis
 and it helps me get rid of all my symptoms.
 What I do is I know a lot of people have ulcerative colitis
 and for me, I cannot recommend it to other people
 because everybody is different.
 But for me, I made a lot of research
 of how people from ulcerative colitis got better.
 And I found out that a lot of people that got that condition
 get better in the natural way,
 through fasting, eating fermented food, collagen,
 and like bone broth and stuff for their gut.
 And it made a huge difference in my life.
 I just wish I would have known that before.
 So do you have a specific diet wise stuff you like?
 So like, you know, I've recently,
 another ridiculous sounding thing,
 but it makes me feel really good is very low carbs.
 So, you know, keto or even carnivore, it sounds ridiculous.
 It doesn't make any sense,
 but it makes me feel really good even for performance.
 Is Rogan has influenced you,
 he's in carnivore diet.
 I was influenced actually by people.
 Yeah, well, he...
 There's, I'll tell you where,
 cause I was doing it before he was doing it,
 is there's, it was popular in the endurance athlete community
 where it was fat adapted athletes.
 It was people who, insane people who run 50 miles,
 a hundred miles, they figured out
 that they could fuel their body by, with fat.
 They can go to fat as the source of energy
 as opposed to carbs.
 So I remember hoping that I'll be able to learn how to run 50
 miles and so on.
 I've never done more than 22, but it,
 I just remember switching away from carbs
 and feeling really liberated.
 Like I wasn't thinking about food as much.
 I'm able to eat once a day and feel really good.
 I mean, I think everybody's body is different,
 but I think carbs make me lazy.
 Maybe it's because...
 The crash.
 Yeah, it's the crash, but also just psychologically,
 something it forced me to also think about food too much.
 Like it starts becoming, you know, our,
 just like you said, our society is so much about food.
 There's so many, so much advertisement
 and so much of our social life is about food.
 And so it's very easy to live life, like live day to day,
 thinking when is the next meal?
 Like, what am I gonna eat for lunch?
 What am I gonna eat for dinner?
 What am I gonna eat for breakfast?
 And if you're not careful, that's gonna get in the way
 of you doing cool shit for like liberating yourself
 and thinking like, what am I actually passionate about
 in this life?
 Like creating and forgetting to eat those kinds of things
 and still being able to fuel your body.
 I don't know.
 It's been fascinating to figure out like later in life
 that carbs aren't necessary to function well.
 It makes me think like we don't know anything
 about nutrition.
 That's right.
 Yes, you know, personally, I don't think I could have
 a diet without carbs.
 I love chocolate too much.
 For me eating, it's a pleasure of life.
 I love my carbs.
 I love my sugar.
 However, if you talk about diet,
 I don't have a specific diet, but recently I,
 what I'm trying to do is the days that I do not work out,
 I only eat once.
 That's kind of my rules.
 Plus I try to respect 16, eight and do my three day fast
 four time a year.
 But the rest of the thing, I let myself loose
 because I don't think I would be happy
 if I don't give myself the right to eat for me personally.
 I love to eat so much.
 Next.
 And you talk about diet, carnivore diet.
 It's very interesting because a few years ago,
 I went to Africa in Maasai Mara.
 And it's a tribe in East Africa.
 And I want to visit them.
 I did a safari.
 And I talked to them and these guys,
 their diet is 99% carnivore.
 That's crazy.
 And you should see they're very beautiful people.
 Shredded like, some people would say, oh, it's genetic.
 I'm like, yeah, maybe it's genetic.
 But I mean, think about the Eskimos also
 that like most of their diet is on fish, right?
 So I believe it can be done.
 I believe it can be done.
 Like an exclusive carnivore diet.
 And I think I'm gonna try it pretty soon
 just to have the experience, you know,
 to see how it feels like.
 Well, you're gonna hang out with Joe.
 Be careful bringing it up because he'll convince you
 to forever switch to carnivore.
 Definitely.
 He loves it.
 I mean, but just like you, I think he loves food.
 So he can't ever stay on carnivore.
 It was funny because we went to an Italian restaurant
 together and I still only eat meat.
 Like I love the constraints of discipline.
 That's partially why I like carnivore.
 I like saying no to food that is delicious.
 But part of the problem is that I don't know
 how to moderate.
 You said chocolate.
 I don't know how to have one chocolate.
 Is that something you're able to do?
 Have like in moderation?
 No, it's when I have an opportunity, I do it.
 I don't have any, I'm an extremist person.
 That's the thing.
 When I have a chance, I just eat.
 I go to much and that's what I like about my life.
 That's what I like about fasting
 because probably if I would not have discovered fasting,
 eating chocolate would give me cramps
 and all sorts of problems.
 Because people on ulcerative colitis,
 normally they cannot eat chocolate.
 They cannot drink alcohol.
 But I believe because I'm fasting,
 that's the reason why I'm medication free.
 I can eat whatever I want, whenever I want.
 But I have to do that fasting.
 And now it became to a point
 that it's no longer hard for me.
 It's like normal.
 I don't even force myself.
 It's easy.
 You know what I mean?
 Some of my friends think I'm insane.
 But I tell them it's like when you get used to it,
 it becomes like an habit.
 And I know that hunter gatherer,
 like our ancestor did not eat three times a day.
 It's not true.
 They ate when they could.
 And when they eat, they feed themselves
 as much as they can until the next time
 because they didn't know when they could eat again.
 I think that's how we're built
 to have this similar lifestyle.
 If we could take a step back to the discussion
 about fear a little bit.
 So Mike Tyson talks about this process
 of him walking to the ring.
 He sounds similar to you in many ways
 of the anxiety and the fear that he experiences.
 And he has this sort of story that he tells
 about walking to the ring and being supremely afraid.
 But as he walks and gets closer and steps in,
 he finds the confidence and becomes supremely confident.
 I think he calls himself like a God.
 I feel like a God in the ring.
 Do you go through a similar process
 of finding the confidence?
 Well, yes.
 And I use a James Lange theory.
 So what I do is because I'm not afraid
 to admit that I'm afraid.
 And in the beginning of my career,
 I really thought, I asked myself,
 because I was very good in mixed martial art,
 but I really thought I wasn't made for this
 because the idea of fighting didn't make me happy.
 It's something like I was forced to do
 in order to keep that lifestyle that I have
 and achieve my goal, perhaps one day to make enough money,
 to retire, and that was my dream.
 You know, that was my dream.
 But when I was looking around the gym where I was training,
 most of my training partner, they were happy.
 They were excited.
 And sometimes I corner a lot of guys and they're happy
 and they're in the locker room.
 They don't react the same way I do.
 Some perhaps does, but if you see me in the locker room,
 like when I get, like my last fight with Michael Bisping,
 just to give you an example,
 in my last fight with Michael Bisping,
 because it's fresh, it's the one that is the most recent,
 but it's always the same thing.
 My last fight, and Bisping, I get in the locker room.
 I had like three guys that I trained with,
 Mickey Gall, Eamonn Zahabi, and Joseph Duffy.
 They all lost.
 It was like, my locker room was basically cursed.
 When you're in a locker room
 and people from your locker room leave for a fight,
 and then they come back, it's kind of a momentum.
 You shake and yeah, good job.
 Now it's my turn.
 It's kind of a team brotherhood sort of thing.
 So the atmosphere in my locker room was pretty bad.
 It was like going to a funeral.
 So I was very scared.
 And before every fight, I asked myself always,
 shit, what the hell I'm doing here?
 Why did I choose to come back?
 Oh my God.
 And I'm freaking out.
 However, I'm putting on a mask like I'm acting,
 because if I don't do that, it will reflect on my coaches.
 And if my coach, the confidence of my coaches is affected,
 it will reflect on me.
 So I need to feel strong.
 I need to make them believe that I'm excited to be there
 and I'm happy to be there.
 So this sort of play start when I get,
 when I first step in the locker room,
 even though I feel completely different,
 but that's how I play it.
 Normally the fight day, I never feel a hundred percent.
 I always feel exhausted, tired.
 My eyes are itching because I don't sleep enough
 the few nights before,
 because I'm constantly rehearsing scenarios
 that might happen in the fight.
 So mentally, it's not that I'm not on top.
 But you keep all that to yourself.
 I keep it to myself and I'm lying to everybody around me.
 But everybody knows, you know?
 Fair ass John De Nair, they know Freddie Rose,
 they've been with me for a long time.
 So they know what's going on,
 but at least I'm lying to them.
 I'm like, hey, I'm feeling great.
 So, and seeing all my training partner,
 like very disappointed because they lost their fight.
 Some were badly hurt as well.
 It was hard.
 So, and I remember I get, I get, I get,
 I started to warm up and everything.
 And as you start to warm up, you become a different person.
 Because, you know, we know that certain posture
 and yoga can affect your mental state.
 But I would say it's a little bit the same thing in fighting.
 You know, like when you started hitting the pads,
 your muscle memory, your instincts comes back
 and you remember that you're good at this, you know?
 And your confidence start to grow.
 And as seeing your trainers holding the pad
 and repeating your moves,
 it makes you also remember all the sacrifice
 you have done through your training camp.
 And confidence come from how you prepared yourself.
 And even you're afraid, you can be confident
 at the same time.
 Being afraid and being confident is two different things.
 And before every fight, just right before I walk in,
 it's when I'm scared, I go in the bathroom
 and I look at myself in the mirror.
 I used to have a bandana and a gi,
 but now I didn't have this for my last fight
 because of the new Reebok deal they had.
 But I did the same rehearsal that I always do.
 I look at myself in the mirror
 and I start to compliment myself.
 Like, even if I don't believe it,
 I'm starting to trying to believe it as I am.
 I'm finding all the reason why I'm gonna win the fight.
 And all my trainer knows that before every fight,
 when the guy from the UFC goes,
 Steppen Maroon says, St. Pierre, you're up next.
 I always take a few minutes to do that same rehearsal.
 And I tell myself, I'm gonna win this fight
 because I'm better.
 And I'm very cocky about myself.
 I'm telling all the reasons that I'm gonna win.
 I got a better team, I made more sacrifice.
 I'm faster, I'm more powerful, way more athletic.
 My fighting IQ is better than him.
 I got a strategy on point
 that he's never gonna be able to keep up with
 and this and that.
 And I was telling myself,
 I'm gonna show these young kids
 how things should be done.
 Trying to boost myself.
 Try to boost yourself.
 And you start to believe in it.
 You become a different person.
 So when you walk out the bathroom,
 now rock and roll.
 Now I really believe it for real.
 I'm still scared, but I believe it for real.
 And that's the transformation that happened for me
 right there.
 And from now, from there to the fight,
 until the fight is over,
 I call it cruise control.
 Because you don't have time to think in a fight.
 If you're trying to think, you're missing the opportunity.
 So that's how I see it for myself.
 So at that point, you stop thinking
 and you just go cruise control, autopilot.
 Trust yourself, you know?
 Trust yourself because you repeated all the scenarios.
 So everything that you have done,
 it's inside your computer.
 Your computer, your brain is programmed to react
 accordingly to certain situations.
 And it's not the night of the fight
 that you'll tell yourself,
 oh, finally I'm gonna do this if you do this now.
 If you have not practiced it before, you're screwed.
 The preparation, the repetition that makes it happen.
 What about the really difficult moments in a fight
 where you are tested to your limits, essentially.
 Usually it's cardio related exhaustion, right?
 Where you have to ask yourself that same question.
 It's like, why the hell am I doing this?
 Yeah.
 Do you experience those
 or are you able to ride through the autopilot?
 And if you do, what do you do in those moments?
 Never in a fight.
 When I'm in a fight, when the fight is on,
 I never change my mind.
 I go until the end.
 However, for example, my first fight with BJ Penn,
 I had a terrible first round.
 So I had to switch gear.
 That happened sometimes.
 But it's part of my plan.
 I always have a plan B, plan A, plan B, plan C.
 You need to have that.
 If fighters goes into a fight thinking,
 oh, what I'm gonna do this, this, this,
 and they don't have a plan B, if this doesn't work,
 that's mean they're not well prepared.
 If you talk to me before every fight,
 I can like in 30 seconds give you my whole strategy.
 You know, for BJ Penn, my first fight with BJ Penn was,
 oh, I'm gonna keep it standing up,
 keep the fight from the outside, you know,
 because I'm faster than him.
 Then the fight with BJ Penn start.
 I found out that I was not faster than him.
 And I found out that his reaction time
 was better than mine.
 So I got beat up the first round
 and I got a bloody nose and everything.
 So my plan B was now I'm gonna wrestle him.
 You know, I'm gonna wrestle him and, you know,
 make him tired and trying to put him down.
 And that's how I beat him, because I switched gear, you know?
 But if you can't do that,
 if you cannot find a way to become the perfect nemesis
 to your opponent, you might win a few fight,
 but you're gonna find,
 you're gonna fight someone sooner or later
 that will give you a lot of trouble.
 So that's where the anxiety pays off.
 You're anticipating all the ways it goes wrong.
 So you develop the plan B and plan C.
 Hi, you know, we talked a lot with,
 like John Donahue, who you work with.
 It's interesting.
 I don't think I've heard him talk about plan B and plan C.
 He usually has a really clear plan A,
 an entire system of plan A.
 I don't think I've heard him,
 we've had a good discussion about it in,
 over some cheeseburgers.
 And he was kind of espousing the value of mastering escapes.
 So when you find yourself in bad situations,
 being exceptionally good at finding ways
 out of those bad situations, and that's a way of dominance.
 There's nothing, there's no better way
 to dominate your opponent, according to him,
 than to show that they can't possibly hurt you
 no matter how bad the position is.
 It's like, as opposed to a physical dominance,
 it's a psychological dominance.
 It's very interesting.
 But I wonder if he has plan B and plan C in his mind too.
 You know, in mixed martial arts,
 sometimes it's like in science,
 sometimes you can make a mistake, you know?
 Like every human can make a mistake, you know?
 There's certain sport or a certain situation that you,
 if there's a mistake made, that's it, exactly.
 Sometimes it's the case in MMA,
 but sometimes you're able to redeem yourself.
 And if you look the fight with BJ Penn,
 one that I had, which was probably
 one of the most competitive fight,
 and it was probably the, it was the fight
 that I got the most damage, and I was messed up.
 It took me three days, like two, three days
 to recuperate from that fight.
 I was really damaged.
 And my first fight versus my second fight,
 I made a lot of adjustment
 because I have learned from my first fight.
 And also I had a guy, one thing people don't know,
 like they talk about fighters having secret weapons.
 See, for me, my secret weapons was not,
 like some is that they use like certain,
 like different things.
 For me, it was knowledge.
 I had a guy in Montreal, he was measuring frames.
 He's not a scientist, he's a friend of Ferras and I.
 And what he does, he watched fight,
 and he measured frames, the way he does it is when
 you watch a fight and one of the guy throw a punch,
 he cut the picture by frame, the video by frame.
 Cluck, cluck, cluck, cluck.
 So he's able to see which fighter
 has better reaction time than others.
 And BJ Penn, he found out that BJ Penn,
 of all the UFC roster at the time when he was in his prime,
 he had probably the best reaction time of all.
 According to him, Lyoto Mashido was the second one.
 But BJ Penn was the first one.
 So I knew that if I would try to go first,
 because I've always been the fastest guy,
 normally when I fight someone.
 But when I fought BJ Penn, I tried to go first.
 And he was always able to, like,
 I was never able to touch him with my jab
 and he came back with a counter punch.
 However, because of what he told me,
 I knew that BJ Penn has a very fast reaction time,
 but at a very poor reset time.
 To him, the way he described it to me,
 he's like, your nervous system is like a muscle.
 BJ Penn was so fast, but he's like more like a sprinter.
 So when I did the second fight,
 when I fought BJ Penn, I made him flinch.
 Like I fake a lot, so I make him react and flinch.
 So all that reaction time that he used to flinch
 was not used properly to avoid my punches.
 So I load up his nervous system with a lot of information
 and fake and to make him flinch
 and pretending I was kicking and wrestling.
 So he got overwhelmed and he got tired very, very fast.
 So that's how I beat him.
 People sometimes they don't know really
 what's the strategy behind the thing.
 They only see the physical part.
 But when you fight someone, if I fight you,
 I look at you in the eyes,
 there's a lot of things that going on between you and I.
 I can look down here, bam, jab you in the face.
 The audience will not see these little detail,
 but you will see it.
 And that's what it makes the magic during a fight.
 The relation that you have with the opponent,
 like the mental game, what you make him believe,
 those little things, I use a lot of those.
 If you've talked to a lot of my opponent,
 they'll tell you like, I use a lot of these little things.
 Like I look down at Ben, I go up or I am pretending
 I want to attack you so I make you flinch.
 But in reality, I'm just doing this because I want to rest.
 I want to recuperate and I'm tired.
 How much is, you know, people talk about that with poker,
 for example, how much is the value of this, you know?
 So like some people argue that poker
 is more about the betting, you know, just the money.
 It's just how much you bet and so on.
 So that would be more like the analogy there with fighting
 would be just strictly the physical movement of your body.
 And then a lot of people argue that there's a lot here
 in the way you look and the little movements in the face.
 So do you think there's, do you think you're communicating
 with your opponent when you look at them?
 There's no way to know for sure 100%.
 And I'm by no means psychic, nothing like that.
 And I don't believe in that at all.
 The only thing is I know through looking through the eyes
 of my opponent when he's afraid and when he gives up on me.
 I've been accused very often in my career
 to not take enough risk, to not finish my opponent.
 But the reason why I didn't finish my opponent
 is because I saw in his eyes that he gave up.
 He gave me the fight and I'm winning the fight.
 So it's not up to me.
 It's not to me to make it, to try to sacrifice myself
 trying to finish him.
 Perhaps if I do that, I will open up for him
 to capitalize on my mistake.
 It's up to him to make a risk.
 So people sometimes they don't understand
 that this is the art of fighting, my friend.
 Like if I'm winning the fight, like in hockey, in ice hockey,
 if you're winning the game and it's the third period,
 it's at the end of the third period,
 you're not gonna take out your goaltender
 trying to score another goal because winning five to three
 or five to four is the same thing.
 Same thing in MMA, we make a living out of this.
 And sometimes as bad as it can be,
 you wanna save yourself for another day,
 you wanna minimize the damage.
 But if he knows he's losing the fight,
 it's up to him to take the risk.
 It's not up to me.
 So I'm a good counter fighter.
 I use a lot of my attack or counter strike
 or reactive takedown or proactive takedown.
 That's my specialty.
 So I'm not gonna, I'd have no desire to sacrifice myself
 trying to finish my opponent if he want to,
 if perhaps I might give him the opportunity
 to capitalize on me.
 It's not smart to do that.
 And very often when I fight someone, I can read him,
 I see the fear in his eyes.
 Now I'm like, I got you now.
 He's very desperate, doesn't mean I have to put my guard
 down because he's gonna be desperate,
 but I know I'm beating you.
 And I know I'm beating you, I'm just gonna do what I need.
 If I have a chance, of course I'll knock him out,
 but I'm not gonna try to sacrifice myself to knock him out.
 And if you do that, maybe one day you'll make a mistake
 and you'll get dropped and you'll tell yourself,
 like, shoot, I just got brain damage.
 Maybe I'm never gonna come back the same.
 Maybe I ruined my career or, you know,
 it's a very serious game that we're playing.
 It's very dangerous.
 In the face of that risk, I mean,
 Mike Tyson talked about, you know, when the opponent looks
 away, he knows he's got him, right?
 That he's broken.
 For a person like me who has trouble making eye contact
 with people, there's truth to that.
 I mean, there's truth to that, that there's an animal nature
 to us looking away.
 I mean, you could see that the way the body language,
 the way the eyes move between two animals going at it
 in the wild, when like two lions fight or two whatever fight,
 there's a certain beta move when you've been defeated.
 Yes, or one thing when I know that, that when it happened,
 one of the sign is when I just like make a faint
 and the guy flinch like crazy,
 that's mean he's really scared of me.
 It's a little bit like you're doing this,
 that guy flinch a little bit or you're doing this,
 he's flinching, that's mean you hurt him
 and he doesn't wanna get hurt again.
 So he's really trying to run away
 and not winning the fight anymore, but not losing.
 So sort of surviving the five round.
 And it's hard to finish a guy who doesn't wanna fight,
 a guy who's not fighting anymore to win
 and he's fighting to not lose.
 And the proof of that, if you don't believe me,
 just look the reign of all the greatest champion in UFC.
 I don't care who they are, John Jones or like,
 you could clearly see that in the beginning of their reign,
 they could finish a lot of their opponent,
 same as me in the beginning,
 I was finishing a lot of my opponent.
 But there's a time that the entire UFC roster
 is studying you and they found a ways to,
 perhaps not beating you, but they found a way to navigate
 through the fight in a way that they minimize the damage.
 You know what I mean?
 So it's a big difference between fighting to win
 and fighting to not lose.
 You said that there's a difference between a fighter
 and a martial artist.
 So now we were talking about fighting,
 you're considered by many to be one of the greatest fighters
 of all time, but you've said that there's a difference
 between a fighter and a martial artist.
 A fighter is training for a purpose, he has a fight.
 I'm a martial artist, I don't train for a fight.
 I train for myself, I'm training all the time.
 My goal is perfection, but I will never reach my goal.
 I will never reach perfection.
 So what to you does it mean to be a martial artist?
 Martial artist is because that lifestyle
 that I have has been introduced to me
 and the seed has been planted to my mind
 a long, long time ago by my father.
 I do not train because I have a fight,
 I will always train.
 It kind of amused me to see that a lot of people
 because I'm still training,
 because I love the science of fighting.
 I do not like to fight, but I love the science of it.
 And I will always do it as long as I can do it.
 People think I'm gonna make a comeback and everything.
 I'm about to have 40 years old.
 I don't wanna fight in a cage at 40 years old.
 Some people have done it, they did it very well,
 but I'm not one of them.
 I feel a little bit to me that,
 and you never say never,
 feel like to me like it's a little,
 like a kid that he play with a strain when he's young,
 like, brrr, then he's five years old,
 brrr, six years old, seven years old, eight years old.
 And then I'm always like,
 what the hell I'm doing here and I'm too old for this.
 Like I have done it, you know,
 and I got out of it on top and I'm healthy,
 which is the most important thing right now,
 I'm touching wood and I'm wealthy.
 I beat the game, you know what I mean?
 In a way, like, that's not to be cocky, but I did it.
 And I wish more fighters could do the same thing.
 I wish, it's unfortunate because a lot of them,
 they stay there and hang out for too long
 and they get badly hurt.
 They get beaten and broken, you know,
 and they finish broke as well
 because the lifestyle you have when you're a pro athlete,
 it's crazy, you know, it's unbelievable.
 However, everything that goes up in life goes down
 and you need to plan your future, you know?
 So for me, if some guys have the same mentality as me
 and they're watching us right now,
 I would say if you do it because you're just good at it,
 you like the money, the advantage, the freedom
 that it gives you, but you don't necessarily like to fight,
 when you're done, you finish on top, you know,
 go cash out and get out of here.
 Walk away, that's really hard to do.
 However, Alex, it's not everybody that does it
 for that reason.
 Some people generally love to fight, love to compete.
 So they do it because they love it, you know,
 or they do it because of the money.
 But if you don't love it, if you don't like to fight
 because it's very stressful and you don't enjoy,
 you enjoy the training perhaps,
 but you don't like to fight, you do it because it's part
 of what you need to do in order to keep that lifestyle.
 And, you know, like you don't need the money,
 say, get out of here, man.
 If you're in your prime, get out of here
 because if you don't, you'll hurt your own legacy,
 you'll damage your health.
 It's very sad.
 And it's a sad business, you know what I mean?
 It's like a lot of, one of the place where,
 one of the most happiest place for me to go
 and the most saddest place for me to go is in the gym.
 It's in TriStar Montreal.
 Because it's one of the happiest place for me to go
 because I can go train and do what I love to do.
 But it's also a very sad place for me
 because after when I'm about to leave,
 there's always a bunch of young kid that comes
 or guys that are around 30, 33 years old.
 And they come to me and say,
 hey, George, you have some advice for me.
 And I look at them.
 And if they're my friend, they're real close friend of mine,
 I'll tell them the truth in their face.
 And I've done it many times and it was not well received.
 But if they're not my friend, I have to, you know,
 it's always an advice about fighting
 and I answer their question, it's my pleasure.
 But the truth, if they want me to tell the truth,
 the big majority of them, I would tell them, I said,
 listen, man, you're in maybe three,
 like on a losing street of three fights,
 you're 30, 33 years old, you know,
 I think you should think about doing something else
 in your life, you know, have other goals, you know,
 because you're not gonna make it.
 And, you know, I've seen that movie before
 and it's a very sad ending.
 And I'm sad to tell you the truth
 because you're not gonna make the money.
 Just choose some, but if I tell them that,
 they're gonna be angry at me because they're gonna be like,
 oh, you, you make it and you think I cannot make it.
 So it's kind of, they're gonna think I'm cocky.
 But I was lucky to make it, you know,
 the star were all aligned, but at one point
 you need to be able to have a plan B, you know?
 Like some parent, they come to see me with their kids.
 Hey, this is the future world champion in UFC
 and what advice would you give him?
 I always tell the same thing.
 And it does not make everybody happy when I say,
 I go to the kids, I say, are you good at school?
 Say, stay at school, school is very important for you.
 Stay educated.
 Yeah, do boxing, martial arts, a great sport,
 stay in shape, but don't put your eggs all
 in the same basket.
 And the parents sometimes are angry when I say,
 not angry, but I can see in their eyes,
 they're like, they kind of surprised.
 And it's not because I made it
 that I will tell their kid to follow the same path
 that I did.
 I went to school too, I've studied.
 I dropped out of school when I had my first
 world championship fight against Matt Hughes.
 But before that I was school.
 So I had another, you know, another way to go
 if things would not have gone the same, the way I wanted.
 But the problem, and I'm saying that,
 it's not only about boxing and MMA,
 I'm talking about hockey, basketball, baseball,
 same thing, maybe it's the one on 100,000 that make it.
 And I'm saying that make it, when I'm saying I make it,
 that means they can retire and have enough money
 for the rest of his life.
 Because it's a sad story, people only heard about the people
 that makes it, but a lot of fighters,
 even the UFC champion, in boxing champion,
 even the football, basketball, I don't care,
 big names, when they retire they have zero.
 They're bankrupt, my friend.
 And it's a very sad, sad story and a sad reality
 that most people are not aware of.
 But having other paths in life actually can also
 increase the chance of you dominating and reaching
 the highest peak in your main thing.
 I mean, Jimmy Pedro, I don't know if you know who that is,
 is a judo coach in America.
 He says that to all of his athletes,
 is to make sure that you go, he has a lot of, you know,
 Kayla Harrison, two time Olympic gold medalist,
 he has a lot of Olympic medalists.
 But basically there's something about going to school,
 like having, forget school, any other avenue in life
 that gives you the freedom to go all out in your main.
 Like, you know you're doing it for the right reasons,
 you're not stuck, it clears the mind to where you're free
 to be the best in the world, as opposed to,
 kind of, you have to.
 I mean, different people are motivated by different things,
 so sometimes some people like having their back to the wall
 and that's the only option they have,
 but most people I think excel when you have other options.
 I think it's a distraction and I think it's important
 to have a distraction.
 When you say that, I think about one of my coach,
 John Danaher, he put his academic background experience
 into jiu-jitsu, and that, for me,
 that's why he's the best teacher I ever had.
 He's incredible.
 He started teaching me when I even couldn't speak
 much English at the time, and I was able to communicate
 and understand, you know, that's how good he is.
 But I truly believe that most of athletes,
 especially in sports like mixed martial arts,
 train way too much.
 If I could go back and talk to a young George,
 I would tell him, you do way too much volume.
 You train way too hard, train smarter, it's more important.
 And I think sometimes we underestimate the benefit
 of recuperation because I think we assimilate
 the information that we learn during a training
 when we recuperate and not during the training itself.
 And this whole mentality of harder, heavier, you know,
 like it's good for someone who's lazy.
 But if you're an elite athlete, most of the time,
 you know, like you're not always, but most of the time
 it's because you're not lazy.
 And a lot of guys, sometimes they're elite athlete champions
 and you hear people say, oh, I can't believe
 he's very gifted, but he doesn't work.
 But perhaps it's not really because,
 perhaps it's because we don't understand,
 perhaps he's doing the right thing and it's us
 who's working too much and too hard.
 That's what I think.
 There's a guy I train with, he made me think about it.
 His name is Mansour Barnaoui.
 He's gonna be a future star, he's an incredible fighter.
 He train once a day.
 And he asked me some time advice when he came to Montreal,
 he's from France.
 You'll hear about him, he's very good.
 And I saw him in the morning at TriStar and I said,
 okay, I'll see you perhaps later in the other training.
 He's like, no, I only train once a day.
 And he kind of waits for me to give him like,
 not an approval, but like to see how I react or,
 I don't know, it was kind of a strange feeling,
 but I told myself, at that point I kind of,
 I had an awakening and I told myself,
 man, maybe he's doing the right thing.
 Because a lot of people would say, for example,
 that's a lazy way of doing it.
 But perhaps it's the best way to do it.
 I'm not saying that training once a day
 is the best way to do it, that's what I'm saying.
 I'm saying that everybody's different,
 but for him, it works beautifully.
 And I wouldn't change anything, you know,
 like if I would be him because he's improving like crazy.
 Yeah, and ultimately the bigger picture there
 is to do something that everyone else says is stupid.
 It's like the fasting thing that a lot of people would say,
 a lot of nutritional experts would say that that's a dumb way.
 You know, if you want to be an MMA fighter,
 you should be eating like many times a day.
 You should be starting every day with oatmeal.
 You should be carving up constantly,
 but that's not necessarily true for everybody.
 And it's possible, I'm sure there's actually now
 a few MMA fighters that are carnivore only, it's possible.
 I used to eat right before training
 and it didn't bother me.
 However, now my first training that I do normally
 in average around noon, 11 a.m.,
 I haven't eaten anything when I do my first training.
 And it feels to me that I'm much more clear in my mind,
 I'm much more creative, I feel better.
 Yeah, it's a big difference.
 I just wish I would have known that before.
 Well, it's fascinating the role of the mind in all of this.
 How important is it for your mind to be clear,
 to really think deeply?
 There's a judoka American named Travis Stevens.
 I remember he said something that the right kind of practice
 is when your mind is exhausted at the end of it,
 that you were constantly thinking through things.
 Like your body shouldn't be exhausted first,
 your mind should be exhausted first.
 It's really fascinating.
 So people think about training hard.
 A successful practice is where you walk away,
 just overwhelmed how much you had to think.
 It's fascinating framing of a successful practice.
 It's true.
 Travis Stevens was one of my main training partner
 when I got ready for my fight with Nick Diaz
 and Carlos Candid.
 He drove every Friday from, I believe, Boston.
 It's like a six-hour drive,
 drive to the gym in Montreal,
 train with us an hour and a half, drive back.
 He's got such an amazing discipline.
 I was so happy for him when he won the medal at the Olympic game.
 Man, what a well-deserved accomplishment.
 It's unbelievable.
 It paid off.
 I was so happy for him.
 And every time we got to the gym,
 he was waiting for me in the kneeling position like a soldier.
 I was like, my God, this guy is made of steel.
 And after training, I always offer him,
 I say, hey, Travis, I know you like to train with that
 because in Montreal, they have a very good judo team,
 Nicolas Gill and all those guys.
 And I say, if you want to stay, I'll get you the hotel.
 You know, like anything you want.
 It's like, no, no, I got to go back.
 I have another training later.
 I'm like, not only that he trained with us,
 he had to go back because he had another training.
 I'm like, this is insane.
 And he's gone through a huge number of injuries.
 So he's also an innovator because, I mean,
 it's difficult to say, but for American judo,
 there's not many high level judoka.
 So if you want to be the like fight with the best
 in the world, you have to be alone.
 It's a lonely journey, actually.
 It's kind of sad.
 It's much easier to be in Japan where everybody's a killer.
 When you're alone at it, it's a difficult journey.
 And, you know, it's funny we talked about kind of,
 there's some sports where a mistake is, that's it.
 You know, you can't recover from a mistake.
 I think judo oftentimes is one of those sports.
 And added on top of that is the Olympics,
 only every four years.
 And Travis's story, he's the reason I,
 when I saw him in 2008, is I started martial arts.
 I switched from like wrestling and street fighting
 to doing jiu-jitsu and judo.
 And I just saw so much guts.
 And the, in 2000, I might be messing up the years here,
 but in the next Olympics, he fought
 and he lost on just the referee call.
 Yeah.
 And just, he went to war and he just, so much guts
 and just everything on the line and to lose
 and to still persevere through all the injuries,
 through all of that, through incredibly difficult
 training sessions to go another four years
 and then compete and then win a medal.
 I mean, that guy is just, and like,
 he clearly could have been very successful.
 He's also an incredible jiu-jitsu competitor.
 So he could have switched to that, but he's stuck.
 In a lot of sport, when you're an elite,
 like for example, in Canada,
 I saw a keys, the number one sport of the countries.
 Kids, when they're an elite, when they're young,
 they get chosen and they're kind of already
 known as a superstar.
 You know, the school where they go
 and the program they follow, like,
 I'm sure it's the same thing in US in basketball,
 baseball, perhaps American football,
 because they already chosen.
 So they grew up with that, that it's a kid,
 that superstar stardom, so to speak.
 And it's already sort of glamorous, you know?
 However, in MMA, there's no MMA, judo, wrestling,
 like in America, because it's not our national sport,
 actually, it's not like, even when I first started,
 it was not really well received by the media.
 There's no glamor into it.
 Now I don't know, it seems like it's another era now.
 And I feel sometimes that some people do it
 for the wrong reason.
 You know, some people do it because of the glamor,
 because of the money.
 But even if you're an elite and very good,
 the glamor and the money won't come in the beginning.
 It's a very long grind before, you know,
 it start to come in.
 And you need to make those sacrifices.
 And it's a journey that where you will be tested,
 you will be hurt, repetitively.
 And you're gonna have to reach the down deep
 and come back up.
 And then once you finally think you made it,
 you're gonna go back in the down deep again.
 It's a very exhausting and encouraging adventure sometimes.
 But if you hold on to your dream and you believe in it,
 you know, and you have the stars are aligned,
 you're gonna make it.
 That's why it's only a few people that make it, you know?
 And that's why I feel, I feel sometimes
 that a lot of people in the new generation
 do it for the wrong reason.
 In my generation, because of sport at first,
 it was there were no rules.
 I thought it was more pure.
 The people that did it was really because of the passion.
 We didn't seek money, fame.
 We did it because we wanted to be,
 I did it because I wanted to be the man, you know?
 I like to have the confidence that when I walk somewhere,
 you know, I have the confidence that, you know,
 it's an illusion because nobody's faster than a bullet.
 Yes.
 But I wanted to achieve it for myself.
 And which today now, because I don't know if it's
 social media and all that, the world has changed.
 The glamor, you know, it's,
 I feel it's a different thing right now.
 Yeah, if you get in it for the glamor or the money,
 you may not have the right amount of fuel
 to persevere through all the ups and downs.
 Yeah. Sure.
 You know, when you talk about motivation of money
 and glamor, a guy comes to mind,
 and I don't know how many wrestlers you know,
 but in Russia, there's a guy named Bovasiy Asatyev.
 The Satyev brothers, one of the greatest freestyle wrestlers
 of all time, but he also has,
 it's funny that he doesn't have many interviews.
 One of my goals is to go out and talk to him in Russian,
 do an interview with him,
 because he's exceptionally poetic and a deep thinker.
 He's the kind of martial artist that you are
 in the way that it's not just about the different battles
 you've been through or whatever.
 It's about the philosophy behind the way he approaches life.
 Now he has spoken quite a bit about that the glamor,
 the fame, the money are all things that get in the way
 of the purity of the experience, the art,
 that the way to achieve greatness is to just lose yourself
 in the art of the actual combat.
 In his case, it's wrestling.
 And then kind of not to worry and actively make sure
 that you block out anybody who feeds you the narrative
 where you're supposed to be this famous person
 and it's all those kinds of things that he basically says,
 let others write your story.
 Make sure that you just focus on the art.
 And now another person from that side of the world
 is of course, Khabib.
 So he represents that side of the world.
 And we were talking about walking away
 and most people not being able to walk away at the top
 as you have, but also now Khabib has, it looks like,
 incredibly so.
 So maybe you can comment about what your thoughts are
 about Khabib, not to bring him out of being able
 to just walk away.
 We talk about the goat very often.
 Khabib is one of, isn't the argument because he has the most
 dominant carrier of all martial art, the guy.
 Some guys can be named the goat for different reasons,
 but Khabib for that reason, and he's undefeated.
 I don't even know if he lost.
 He might have lost round, but he dominate all his opponent.
 It was ridiculous.
 And such an incredible carrier that he had.
 I love to watch him fight.
 He's incredible.
 And when you talk about the art,
 when you say mixed martial art,
 the idea of a flawless performance for me,
 everybody often when we say flawless performance
 thinks about a knockout, a brutal knockout.
 But for me, it's to be able to showcase beautiful technique,
 like a beautiful takedown, beautiful submission,
 like something beautiful that,
 you know, when you look at, for example,
 Wayne Gretzky or Michael Jordan or like Stephen Curry,
 even if you don't know nothing about basketball
 and you watch Michael Jordan, you'll be like,
 wow, that's beautiful what you just did.
 Like we talk about fighting and trying to say
 the word beautiful in fighting for certain people,
 it could sound kind of crazy, you know,
 but I'm talking about the technique,
 a beautiful technique.
 You know, for me, that's the goal.
 You know, when I was fighting,
 it's not only to have a brutal knockout
 because some people are more gifted than others.
 I'm saying gifted.
 Some people are better than others in certain phase
 of fighting, but for me, it was that.
 It was to showcase, to win, of course,
 but to showcase some beautiful technique
 that you can watch it and be like, wow, that was incredible.
 The timing, he did it.
 And when I think about Khabib Normagomanov,
 I see all the detail of his work,
 especially when he's got his opponent against defense,
 that's like, that's his area of expertise where he's,
 to me, he's the best that ever did it
 in terms of that fighting style,
 that particular expertise that he has, it's just incredible.
 The flawless execution of that particular set of techniques.
 Yeah, and Conor McGregor had the accuracy.
 The Spider Anderson Silver was like,
 was I would say the most flamboyant of all, you know,
 like he was moving like the matrix.
 John Jones was incredible in terms of creativity,
 spinning elbows and that, and he faced incredible adversity.
 Dimitrious Johnson was so complete.
 You could bring, like he was slamming a guy to an arm bar.
 It was just unbelievable.
 Like he was like the complete fighter.
 BJ Penn was like so flexible.
 He did stuff with his body that like,
 like nobody could do his, the dexterity of his hips
 was just unbelievable.
 Dominic Cruz, to me, was incredible.
 His footwork, his distance control.
 So when you talk about like the GOAT,
 Royce Gracie, another one, he did things that I think
 for me is not number one because-
 Yeah, I got to, I got to, and sorry to interrupt,
 the hoist is a fascinating one.
 I'd love to hear what you think about him,
 but many people consider you,
 most people consider you to be the number one,
 greatest mixed martial arts fighter ever.
 So it's fascinating to remove you from that list
 and continue this discussion and asking like,
 who do you think is the greatest fighter ever?
 You listed some amazing ones.
 Royce, you somehow skipped Fedor.
 I'm very, as a Russian, I'm very offended.
 No, I was going to, there's so many.
 Fedor is one as well.
 Fedor, I think in his prime was like,
 when you say, when you talk about a name, for example,
 like we talk about him when he was in his prime.
 Like when I talk, for example, about Anderson Silva,
 I'm not talking about the Anderson Silva
 who fought his last fight against Urey Yohan.
 I'm talking about Anderson Silva who knocked out
 Victor Belfort, yes.
 BJ Penn, same thing.
 The problem is when fighters hang on
 for too long in the sport, that's what happened.
 They kind of make people forget how good they were.
 And it's very sad.
 We talk about Fedor and just think about Stipe Miocic.
 Miocic is probably the greatest heavyweight of all time.
 With Fedor, I would really wonder who would have won
 this fight, the both guys in their prime.
 I tend to lean towards Fedor because my heart was
 with Fedor, but he could have gone the other way.
 But just because Miocic lose his last fight,
 now everybody is like, oh yeah, they forgot about him.
 It's crazy, man.
 It's one fight, you zig when you should zag, boom.
 That's the reality of mixed martial arts.
 Well, that's why the thing is the mixed martial arts
 isn't just the performance, the strictly who won and who lost.
 It's also the stories we tell ourselves.
 And so, I mean, there's beautiful stories being weaved
 and that also is part of who is the greatest of all time,
 is what were the battles, what had to be overcome,
 what was the flavor of the flawless performances,
 all of that plays into it.
 And you're right, being able to walk away at the top
 is also part of that.
 A lot of people ask me about Khabib and that fight,
 I want it to happen.
 Khabib wanted to happen, but UFC did not want to happen.
 Between you and Khabib?
 Yes, and we tried to make it like about three years ago
 when I retired, no, three, no, it was after two years ago.
 And they never came to fruition.
 The UFC were clear, they said they have other plan for Khabib.
 And it makes sense for the business standpoint
 because they want to keep the ball rolling.
 Now Khabib retired and like everybody else,
 after Justin Gage, I was doing the commentator in French
 for the UFC and I had a butterfly,
 I thought he was going to call me out.
 If there's one guy that I would have said yes,
 it would be him because for a fighter,
 the most exciting things to do, it's often the scariest one.
 And Khabib was worth the risk.
 He's the scariest matchup for you?
 Yes, he was worth the risk
 because nobody has ever been able to solve them.
 How would you solve the Khabib,
 normally I'm not a puzzle.
 Well, Khabib is very good against the fence.
 I would have to establish a game plan and everything,
 but I think what I would need it to do
 is take the center of the octagon right away.
 Use a lot of think and faith.
 Keep the fight all the way out or all the way in.
 And when I say all the way in is when you close the gap,
 use my proactive and reactive takedown
 and perhaps my superior explosivity to put him down.
 I like to use those proactive and reactive takedown
 because for me, I feel it's more economical.
 Khabib is a much better chain wrestler than me.
 Chain wrestler is when you got the guys to the fence,
 it's pure wrestling.
 What makes my takedown very efficient?
 It's my karate, it's not my wrestling.
 I'm very good at timing my opponent
 and getting in with my explosivity.
 So if you watch my takedown, it does not demand often,
 it does not demand a lot of work.
 When I use the, I call it proactive takedown
 when he's coming to punch me and I react.
 So I mean, proactive is when I'm faking it.
 So I instigate the takedown by a fake, then I take him down.
 And reactive is when I'm baiting him to throw something,
 then I'm putting.
 As a counter, yeah.
 Yes, but all my takedowns.
 In the center of the octagon.
 Yes, my takedowns are more in the center of the octagon.
 Like for example, another guy that does it well
 is Gleason Tebow that did it well in his best days.
 Khabib has more a style of chain wrestling,
 I would say like Kamaru Usman, so to speak, kind of guy.
 It's a different style, you cannot compare both styles.
 And that's the kind of takedown I'm good.
 And if I would have fight Khabib,
 that's one of the strategy I would have adopted.
 I would not have been afraid because everybody that I fought,
 I was able to put them down.
 And I have the pedigree to prove it in my fight resume.
 So you would have perhaps seen him on his back
 and I would have perhaps be on my back as well.
 So it would have been a very interesting fight.
 How hard do you think he is to take down?
 I mean, a lot of people speak about his wrestling being just.
 It has nothing to do with the wrestling because.
 It has to do with the karate.
 If I got that timing and I got my both hands around his knees,
 he's going down the other way.
 Everybody goes down, yeah.
 Yes, yes, he goes down.
 And I had a lot of that.
 That's what I would have done.
 I would not have been afraid of his wrestling.
 I would have beat the instigator.
 I would have forced the fight forward.
 And that's how I would have approached that fight,
 which I believe most of his opponent were afraid of his wrestling
 because they didn't have the tools that I have to put him down.
 I would not have forced the wrestling.
 I would have in the clinch.
 I would have tried to disengage.
 I have many ways to disengage a clinch.
 I would have want to force the fight in a fighting distance,
 you know, like in a shoot box distance, not in a wrestling distance.
 Is it possible this fight still happens?
 You're young, look great in the suit.
 Well, there's a lot of problems now.
 And the thing is, now I made peace with it.
 I no longer don't want to fight and it's not going to happen.
 UFC was not interested and I'm bound by contract with the UFC and by exclusivity.
 There are some people who says to me,
 oh, how about if a crazy wealthy Russian guy come with the money?
 I said, I'm going to be in court with the UFC.
 And also, I'm older now.
 And when I go home, man, I'm like, I don't want to do this.
 You were always like this.
 I don't want to do this.
 But like, for example, I was training with Freddie Roach a few days ago
 and I'm hitting pads, you know, and Freddie is looking at me
 and he's like, hey, you have the hitch back.
 I'm like, yeah.
 If Dana White would walk in the room in the gym at that precise moment
 with the UFC contract, I would sign it in the blink of an eye.
 But when I go home, I'm like, hell no.
 My belly is full.
 I'm healthy.
 I'm wealthy.
 Why would I want to fight for?
 I made peace with it.
 But the minute I go back in the gym, because I still get it inside me,
 when I train with the young guys, I still get it.
 And a lot of guys think, hey, tell me the truth.
 You're preparing a comeback because I still get it.
 You know, I'm a little bit older, but I got more knowledge.
 I can compensate.
 I become a different animal because, you know, it changed you.
 But then after you go home and you're like, man, no way I'm doing this.
 It's very hard to explain.
 You need to be a fighter to understand that.
 It's very, very hard to explain.
 Well, from your perspective, I think Khabib is one of the rare,
 one of the few fascinating scientific puzzles yet to be solved.
 So from that aspect as a martial artist, it's just a fascinating journey
 to try to solve that puzzle.
 There is a thing too, like we say, oh, who's the best fighter?
 People, like I am this.
 I realized that later in my life.
 And I'm sure a lot of young guys will say, oh, I said, yeah,
 it's not, don't speak for me.
 But I'm telling you right now what I'm about to say.
 You will realize it later.
 When I was young, I think you can proclaim yourself the more
 the bad ass man on the planet, you know, like nobody can beat you at.
 It's an illusion, man.
 That's the sad thing about, for example, DC.
 Daniel Cormier, that's probably one of the greatest, if not the greatest
 of all time, you said, Miochish.
 But like it's almost because of that little match up with John Jones.
 It's difficult for people to conceive of him as the greatest of all time.
 It's all about match up.
 It's all about timing.
 And also you make a fight.
 You make both guys fight 10 times.
 The result might be different.
 Like, like every time, you know, I mean, maybe he's going to win 8 out of 10.
 But that night is going to lose.
 Why? Because we don't know the universe made it like that.
 You know, maybe he got sick.
 Maybe he had the emotional issues.
 He didn't sleep well and he makes him lose focus and he got caught.
 You don't, we don't know.
 But it's, that's the thing with people ask me, would you have done it with Khabib?
 What would happen?
 I don't know.
 Maybe out of 10 times.
 I don't know.
 Maybe as a fighter, I hope I would have won more than him.
 He thinks the opposite is only one way to find out.
 That night, if there is a fight, the guy that going to win doesn't mean he's the best fighter.
 That means that he's the one that fought the best the night of the fight.
 Same thing in basketball or hockey.
 The team that wins the game.
 It's not necessarily the best thing is the team that play the best the night of the game.
 And fighting is no different.
 So being the baddest man on the planet, it's an illusion.
 I mean, that's the tragic thing about it is on any one night anything can happen.
 And that that tells a story for all of human history is it's it's sad.
 It's sad to think about, but that's what makes it beautiful that there's so much at stake.
 Like entire lives, all the dreams you've had growing up, all the hard work, all of it is decided in a single night.
 Even though that means nothing in terms of who's actually better.
 It's I mean, that's the beauty.
 That's why people of the Olympics, especially because it happens so rarely.
 And dreams are broken or like triumph is achieved by the unlikely hero.
 All like right there.
 I mean, that's why we love it, right?
 That's why I love it.
 If we would know always the result before it would be boring.
 That's why we do it.
 You know, I watch the odds, you know, like like sometimes it.
 I like to watch the odds before a fight, you know.
 Because, you know, there's things, you know, I believe in causality.
 You know, I believe in everybody believe different things, but I believe everything is because there is a there is a cause to everything.
 That's personally what I believe.
 I don't believe that I have like free will.
 I think I have the illusion of free will, but I believe there is a cause for everything.
 And if I'm doing something because of something, because of a cause by definition, there is no free will in a way.
 You know, if there is a cause by definition, there is not.
 How does that make you feel, by the way, like the idea that if we just look outside even just human psychology and fighting and so on,
 if we look at like physics, if everything is predetermined, if all of these low molecules interacting, it's all already like your story is already written.
 I mean, it depends. It's written, but I would need to know all the data and it's impossible, right?
 Like it's it's it's kind of weird.
 I got to say, but I don't to me, I don't see any argument to counter that idea.
 I can I don't maybe I'm ignorant, but I haven't seen nobody and everything that I've read so far.
 There is nothing that counter that idea that that that because in a mechanical world,
 if your car broke or, you know, we don't say the car decided to broke or a three trees fall.
 There's reason why the trees fall. We don't say the trees decide to fall.
 Right. So because us human being, I think it's our ego with the side and I'm no different than anybody.
 When I make a decision, I decided to this.
 I choose to do this. But I'm aware that there is causes.
 That make me do certain things.
 And by definition, I think if there is a cause.
 There is no free will by definition, right?
 Yes, but the thing is, just like you said, we understand so little about human intelligence,
 the human mind, and especially consciousness that the this giant mystery,
 this darkness that we don't understand how how it how it feels like to be something,
 to be a conscious being that because of that,
 we're not able to really even reason about free will or not.
 Because there might be some magic that comes from consciousness.
 You know, the consciousness might be the thing that makes us different from a car that breaks down.
 There might be something totally fascinating, totally undiscovered yet
 that will make us realize that free will is actually real and is somehow fundamental to the human experience.
 So it's sometimes I think we forget when we talk about free will and physics
 and it all seeming to be predetermined, we forget how little we actually understand about the world.
 And I think in that mystery, that could be totally new ideas that are yet to be discovered
 and will make us realize that it's not just an illusion.
 It is something that is like at the core of how the universe works.
 Some people believe that consciousness is a fundamental property of the universe.
 Like it's a one of the forces of physics.
 Like consciousness permeates everything.
 It's in everything.
 Like this table is conscious, but it's not as conscious as us.
 And we're this little peak of consciousness.
 And if that's true, and if we get to understand that, maybe there's something,
 there's an extra bonus we get in terms of free will once you become one of those entities that are super conscious.
 So I tend to be sort of humbled by the mystery of it.
 Do you believe one day with the technology that keeps improving,
 we will make robot that will be able to be somehow conscious?
 Absolutely.
 That's been my dream.
 That's been, I hope to do just that.
 First of all, I believe that all people are capable and want to be good to each other.
 And I think love is a really powerful thing that connects us and can create better and better worlds.
 Sort of like create better and better societies that improve both the technology,
 the quality of life, and just the basics of human experience.
 And I think creating AI systems that are conscious, that are human-like, can enable us to be better to each other.
 It's almost like adding more and more kindness to the world through the systems we interact with will inspire us to be better and better to each other.
 In terms of them being conscious, I think that is an absolute requirement.
 That entities we interact with communicate some element of consciousness to us.
 Like that's how we connect to each other.
 The reason we you and I connect is that we believe that each of us are conscious.
 And to me, what consciousness means is the ability to hurt, ability to suffer, to struggle in this world.
 Because just like you said, without the struggle, you don't have the love, you don't have the pleasure.
 And ultimately, consciousness is an entity's ability to struggle, to suffer.
 And from that arises the pleasure.
 And us together being able to appreciate the highs and experience together the lows.
 That's how we form the deep connections.
 I personally think we can create that in robots.
 And I personally believe it's a lot easier than we think.
 Does it make you afraid sometimes about the fact that one day AI, artificial intelligence could hurt us?
 Because of Hollywood, of course, the movies we watch.
 But it seems like when I hear sometimes Elon Musk talking.
 Yeah. So Elon talks about with AI, we're summoning the demon.
 He is very concerned.
 And I talked to him about it quite a bit.
 He's very concerned about all the different ways AI could hurt us humans.
 I tend to believe that there's a lot more ways in which AI can make our lives better and can make life awesome for humans.
 I think humans are the ones that can do a lot of evil things.
 So I'm less worried about AI.
 I'm more worried about humans.
 If I look at what you may have done on the course of history, for example, in regards to the planet, to the scale of the universe,
 I think what I'm afraid is that we have more of a destructive force than a beneficial force.
 So if AI takes that into consideration in order to protect us against ourself,
 it could hurt us. I don't know if you understand.
 What do you think about that?
 Does it makes you afraid sometimes?
 Not because of AI, but because of what humans are doing that AI could do to us to prevent us of hurting ourselves.
 Yeah.
 I mean, definitely it can bring out the worst in human nature and provide tools for evil people to do evil things at a larger scale.
 But I just think it depends what you think human beings are.
 I tend to believe that as we get more intelligent, we start to see the evolutionary value and the value in terms of happiness of being good to each other.
 And I think AI, if you look at AI as an optimization problem of how to create a civilization that works well and expands throughout the universe,
 I think love is much more effective. So AI will help us maximize that.
 I think there's going to be always spikes throughout as it has been through human history,
 where charismatic leaders will do evil onto the world in the name of good.
 You have the Stalin and the Hitlers and all of that.
 But ultimately, over time, I think technology will give the good people power and the evil people less power.
 Now, there's a lot of ways in that that won't be the case.
 There's a lot of ways for it to go wrong.
 And Elon talks about them, but I honestly think in terms of intelligent AI, that's going to bring more love to the world.
 The thing I'm concerned about is dumb AI.
 So there's been a lot of discussion between China and the United States recently on autonomous weapons system.
 This is something people don't they're afraid to talk about.
 But there's now a race where the United States has officially said that they're not against adding AI to its weapons systems.
 So now the US military is adding automation, adding intelligence to its drones, to its anything that can create damage.
 And so, of course, they did this so in response to China doing that.
 So you can imagine this is Terminator.
 You think about Terminator as intelligent systems. They're not. They're pretty dumb.
 The point is they're efficient at doing what they do.
 And in the space of war, efficient at doing what you do means killing.
 So that I'm really afraid of.
 But those are dumb AI. Those aren't your loving, deep, fulfilling relationships.
 That's like efficiently being able to fly, to plan the trajectory of dropping bombs, of missiles, of how to do counterattacks,
 of how to maximize the destruction of a particular facility instead of individuals.
 And then that can just escalate.
 And as opposed to the Cold War with the Soviet Union, this could be a hot war.
 And then the consequences, once you allow, it's kind of terrifying because currently the drones are operated by humans.
 So, you know, you have say you have information about intelligence gives you information about a particular terrorist located in this area.
 And then you use drones to maybe the automation there is to help you figure out what is the best trajectory to strike at that location.
 So you still have a human that pulls the trigger at the end of dropping the bomb.
 Now, automation and AI and autonomous weapons systems might be where you say there's a bad guy over here.
 You figure out how to get rid of the bad guy. OK, so then, of course, the systems will be very good at finding the right trajectory and so on.
 But there's bugs that can happen, unexpected bugs that the system might figure out that there is this bad guy might actually be in these other five locations.
 So it might make sense to cover the entire area. Right.
 And so you might drop bombs on the entire area.
 And then, you know, that's just OK. So that's going to lead to a lot of destruction at the scale of a city.
 But then you can immediately take that to nuclear weapons.
 If you add automation to responding to counterattacks to nuclear weapons, somebody you might get information that somebody is planning a nuclear attack on the United States.
 And the AI system will immediately respond and it can respond to the scale of launching nuclear weapons itself.
 And so there's all of these possibilities that don't require much intelligence.
 And that's exceptionally that's exceptionally concerning.
 I'm like you. I do not believe there is babies that are born bad.
 I think people do bad things because of their experience.
 However, if I look through my experience and from what I can see is some very often men's of power wants more power.
 That's what makes me afraid with. Yeah, no, absolutely.
 I listen. I've been I've come from the Soviet Union.
 Stalin is arguably one of the most powerful humans in history.
 He's not talked to often enough about by the evils he's done.
 Hitler gets all the attention. But Stalin has done arguably much more evil than than Hitler.
 Yeah, well, this is this is human nature. It wants power.
 We see that with institutions. We see that with governments and nations.
 I think you see you see this with the Internet.
 People are really hungry for the distribution of power.
 Like you see that people are very much distrustful of centralized places of power, of institutions and so on.
 So I think successful organizations, successful companies, successful governments will be run by people who distribute the power.
 Like I don't trust myself with power at all. Yeah.
 And I think you have to build into the system that no one person can have power and that you distribute it.
 That's where you have in the financial sector of cryptocurrency right now with Bitcoin and all those kinds of things.
 People are exploring how can we avoid the central bank to have control?
 How do you put the power in the hands of people, thousands of people, millions of people?
 And in the same way with with military, with any kind of with technology, I think the future looks very distributed.
 What do you think about militarizing space?
 The Space Force.
 I don't think about it often because right now I'm filled with excitement about space exploration, which is the positive aspect.
 So Elon, you know, I was born in an era where it was exciting.
 I don't know about you, but for me, it's exciting to look up to the stars and dream about us humans, you know, colonizing Mars,
 colonizing other planets, expanding onto the galaxy, into the universe.
 That's really exciting. So I'm the possibilities there are endless.
 I don't think because also the resources are endless.
 And so I think we get into trouble with militarization, with wars when the resources are very constrained.
 So I think for a while we're not going to be fighting.
 The only wars we'll be fighting in space are the ones that kind of help us.
 Another nation to compete. Who goes to the moon first, I guess.
 That's those those the kind of those kinds of things.
 There may be for satellites and all those kinds of communication and maybe in assistance for like cyber warfare, which is also very dangerous.
 But in terms of space, the wars out in space, I think.
 I think everything out in space will be positive and inspiring.
 It's very hard, but all good things are hard, I think.
 This is where I've been. I've been talking to a bunch of people about extraterrestrial life.
 I'm really excited by. I don't know.
 It's the other thing. When I look out to the stars, it's exciting to me.
 I know I think you've spoken about it being scary, but to me, it's exciting that there's intelligent creatures out there.
 Far beyond perhaps the intelligence of our own that are just too far away to explore yet.
 But we might one day come in contact with them.
 So that that to me is the ultimate motivator is to meet other intelligence life forms out there and connect with them.
 Have you ever meet Jacques Valley?
 No, but I've been in communication. I want to hope to talk to him. He's an amazing French.
 I know that there are many theories about this.
 You know, if there is alien, we don't know. Right.
 But some people think it's from another star systems.
 Jacques Valley is like to make a long story short, he has a different theory, thinks it's perhaps beings that could be living in a different dimension than us.
 And the reason why he says that is when he makes an experiment, when there is a sightings very often of a UFO, let's say I'm the UFO that you have three guys.
 They are looking at the UFO very often.
 One experiment that you can do. And sometime that that is the case.
 You asked your two friends to walk on the side and there is a point that it's like a corridor.
 You see the UFO and then you stop seeing like a corridor.
 And that's one of the reasons why he's saying that it's perhaps dimension.
 And I found that fascinating.
 This is what, you know, to the discussion of consciousness and all that, it feels like we might be just experiencing a very particular slice of this universe.
 We might not be understanding what's at the higher dimensions or higher dimensions in whatever form that means.
 You know, there's all these physical theories now that describe a world with dimensions that's much higher than the four dimensions of the three dimension of space and the one dimension of time.
 So whatever the hell is going on in those other dimensions, it could be something.
 Unfortunately, this is the sad part. It might be something we can't even comprehend with our human brains that the limitations are just.
 I mean, we're built, we're just descendants of apes. So like it might not be possible to even understand.
 Is there alien? Is there another dimension? Are they human from the future?
 Is there perhaps Chinese or another group of people that are working with technology far behind?
 But you know what, Lex, I had the chance to meet because of the sport I'm doing.
 I met a lot of people in military and politics sometimes that I asked them every time I met one this week.
 And I asked him, hey, is it true about the UFO is there? And he says to me, even before I asked him, I said, sorry, I have to ask you a question.
 I was in Los Angeles. And I said, sorry, I have to ask you a question. He said, oh, you want to ask me about UFO right away?
 I said, yes. He saw it in your eyes.
 He said, yeah, there is things that flies that we don't know. But he didn't tell me. They don't know if it's alien or whatever. But there's things apparently that are detected.
 And I know you met Fravor.
 Fravor is fascinating. It makes me sad that we live in a different era now that it used to be a subject that was ridicules.
 And now it's so cool that I'm very excited to live in that era.
 Yeah, it's really exciting. But still, the governments are kind of behind the times on that aspect.
 They're not transparent and they don't communicate well.
 It saddens me to think the possibility that the US government might be in possession of something that they don't tell the world about because they're just scared.
 It's because they don't know what the hell it is. And they don't want the Chinese to gain the technology or all those kinds of things.
 Do you think the president of the United States, for example, because the president comes and goes every four or eight years, do you think he would know all the secrets?
 Or it would be a guy like, for example, Vladimir Putin would know much of it.
 I don't think the president even knows all the secrets.
 The US president.
 I don't think so because they go back and forth every four years. They have the terms, right?
 So I wasn't sure before, but I think I could trust the previous United States president of Donald Trump that if he knew, he would probably tweet about it.
 Perhaps.
 So I think from the you know, I've worked with DARPA, I work with DOD, Clearance, and I think from the perspective, if you see the world as fundamentally a dangerous world where secrets are important to have from a military perspective, I think it's very unsafe to tell the president of the United States that you have this kind of technology.
 So if you think of the world in that way, I hate that that's how that world is viewed, because ultimately I think what's more powerful than the military secrets, and I hope that actually is what will happen in the 21st century, is what's more powerful is to inspire people, inspire the young Elon Musk's of the world to create cool new things.
 If we have technology that we've have come have encountered that we don't understand, that should only be inspiration to develop that kind of stuff.
 It shouldn't be seen as military as a military threat as a secret to hold on to.
 I think secrets.
 I hope we more and more let go of the idea that there are secrets that give us advantage.
 You know, like in the tech sector, people are more and more releasing the software, making it open source.
 Like secrets don't make sense.
 They share the knowledge, right?
 Share the knowledge. Like being afraid to share the knowledge, I think, I hope, is an old idea.
 It's more, yeah, when you make it, things more compartmentalized, you know?
 Well, yeah, that's the other thing is the bureaucracy of government is like people only know their own little thing and they don't spread the information.
 It doesn't travel well.
 I mean, there's a lot of just inefficiencies there.
 It makes me sad. It makes me sad because the science, the engineering that happens in governments like Lockheed Martin developing the different airplanes that they use for military applications,
 that's some of the most incredible engineering ever. And it's secret because they're afraid to share it with the Russians and the Chinese and so on.
 But on that topic, I do think somebody like Vladimir Putin would know, probably know some stuff.
 My God, my God.
 I would love to know what he knows. But then again, you never know because even he is, you know, people think of him as an exceptionally powerful person, but he's also just managing a bunch of tribes.
 His power is very limited. He's trying to hold together a bunch of greedy, power hungry, mad men.
 That's right. OK. And he's trying to establish a balance. He might not know everything.
 So I hope this changes because I think there's nothing more exciting about.
 I don't even know if there is a human that knows, you know what I mean? Like this idea that there are some civilization, alien civilization that that land on the White House and say,
 Hi, I come to meet the prison. I like why would they do that? You know what I mean?
 It's kind of absurd. You know, well, I do think that actually, I mean, that's one possibility, right?
 Because Lartre, you know, if an alien civilization really wanted to contact us, I think everybody would know.
 So I think what we're if if there's any kind of interaction between humans and aliens, I think most likely what we're interacting with is a crappy like probe drone thing that kind of just like like it's like this.
 Yeah, yeah. This is this dumb thing. You know, we're not interacting with the aliens.
 I think just like just like for us, I think humans aren't when we venture out into space.
 The first thing that's going to be aliens is our robots. It's not us humans because we keep sending robots out.
 So they're going to like they're going to make decisions about humans by looking at the robots. The famous Grays. The Grays. Maybe they are robots. Maybe it's all BS, too.
 You know? Yeah, yeah. So I don't know. I don't know what that interaction actually would look like if aliens really wanted to reach out, really communicate.
 And I don't know if we're able to actually communicate with them. That's one of the sad things.
 We may not be able to that we might the aliens might already be here and we might just not even know know how to see them or know how to communicate with them.
 There's so much misinformation and sometimes there is people that are very credible that that that made crazy claims.
 You know, like you don't know what to believe. You know, like like Paul Elyar, the Minister of Defense of Canada, said that there is many alien rays that ever could.
 That's what he said. Research it. And that that scientist from I think Israel recently have said something about Trump.
 He was keeping secret or Medvedev. You're from Russia. Medvedev have been caught in like during a break in between interviews to talks about how it's like men in black, so to speak.
 I don't know. He didn't look like he was joking, but I don't know if he was saying that. Yeah, you can check on YouTube. It's it went viral.
 Yeah, there's a lot of things like that. Sometimes I'm like or Bob Lazar. I'm like, imagine if it's true, man.
 Yeah, imagine if we're like a fish in the water. We live in our own world.
 And sometimes there's a fisherman that grabbed the fish. Yeah, they came out of the water and threw it back in the water and the fish goes back to the other fish.
 It's like, hey, there's someone that that take me out of the water. Then I've seen things that I did not.
 Imagine if it's true. Like we like. Yeah. And one other thing like I wanted to ask you because you were consciousness. How about dreams? What is a dream?
 Yeah, well, I'm more and more. I don't know if you're paying attention to this.
 There's no it's become more acceptable in the scientific community to do large scale studies of psychedelics, for example.
 And there's a lot of connection between psychedelics and dreams. It's very similar states.
 There's a lot our mind does when it detaches itself from reality, that it can just explore a lot of different ideas.
 It's very possible that dreams is you're traveling somewhere. And the same thing with psychedelics.
 You're traveling somewhere in a different not traveling to physical space.
 It's the other dimensions that we're talking about. You're traveling some other through some other dimension to meet some other creature.
 People talk with DMT that they meet some elves. I've never done.
 I'd like to. I don't know if there's a safe legal way to do it, but they all talk about meeting elves and creatures like entities.
 They core. Who are they? What's what is this?
 Is it because they're higher or it's because they're actually meeting something?
 And maybe there's no difference. I mean, that who knows exactly.
 And that's takes us right back to us not being able to really understand how our mind works.
 I work in artificial intelligence. It's clear that we understand so little about intelligence, some basic things about intelligence.
 Just at the at the very sort of basic first principles level, we don't understand what it means to to reason, to think,
 to assimilate pieces of knowledge together from the from the basics to the complex.
 We don't understand it. We don't understand how the human mind does it.
 We don't understand how the human mind is able to take incredible waterfall of information and filter cleanly into just like clean.
 You only see the things that are important and are able to stay together and be able to reason about the world.
 And at the same time have moments of like genius, of creativity.
 Like what is that? That also, you know, people writers talk about that, that they're, you know, they're almost like communicating with a muse.
 Like, where do ideas come from? Yeah, this is the Joe Rogan philosophy.
 But I do know that past civilization were a lot of them were based on shamanism.
 And you know what? I think it's sad is if someone drink alcohol and when he's drunk, he's going to commit like create like like murders or something.
 We're going to blame the person. Right. We're going to say that's his fault. It's not the fault of alcohol.
 However, if someone does psychedelic or any things that is illegal and do something crazy, now we're going to put the fault on on psychedelic.
 You know what I mean? And perhaps the person itself is the reason why, you know, he's been doing these things.
 You know what I mean? So, yeah, it's fascinating how like society, you know, like in Canada, they just legalize marijuana.
 Yeah. Marijuana is legal. But before that, before they did it, like if you talk, for example, to my dad, my dad is against it.
 Like because the whole mentality is like it's drug, it's bad. But drinking a glass, you know, drinking a beer, it's fine.
 I mean, what is you know what I mean? What is good? What is bad?
 And I guess you think chocolate could be bad as well for your health.
 Or I mean, I'm going to the extreme now, but what is good? What is bad?
 If you use it for recreation, you use it for an experience for to learn about yourself.
 It's like it's the line is very tiny. You know, there are some countries that drugs are all legal.
 You know what I mean? And I don't know the stats, but I would I would be interesting to know if they have more crimes there than other countries where it's more strict.
 I would I would be interesting to know about that. It's fascinating me.
 Yeah. And I mean, we humans kind of just come up with arbitrary lines of what's good, what's bad, that applies with drugs, that applies with anything that applies with animals.
 For example, we talked about carnivore diet. Maybe the time we live in now will be remembered for the cruelty to animals, for example.
 And I believe this the 21st century will be remembered for our cruelty to robots that eventually there will be a civil rights movement for robots.
 The ones who choose to be conscious, the ones who have consciousness will say we deserve rights to we deserve to be treated with respect to.
 How about the people we put in jail?
 I mean, I think in the future we'll look back and we'll think of ourselves being stupid to put people in jail instead of trying to fix the problem at the base.
 Of course, now we're I guess it's our ignorance that made it in a way that we cannot sometimes understand what makes sometimes a psychopath a psychopath or a murderer, a murderer.
 But, you know, if we can pinpoint the problem and take care of it before, you know what I mean?
 Or made it in a way that we can reestablish that person in the society, you know, who knows, you know, what was the future is old.
 It's interesting. We live in an interesting time.
 You mentioned your father. What have you learned from your dad? You mentioned he was an important part of your childhood.
 My dad is amazing. I grew up. We didn't have a lot of money, but it doesn't mean if I'm born in a nice country that always nice thing happened.
 You know, my dad, for me, is a big role model because I see him to to my life facing a lot of adversity.
 You know, he he stopped drinking when I was a teenager.
 He was an alcoholic and I seen him struggle to that, you know, and it was very, very hard.
 And I've seen him work like crazy hours, like come up, leave in the morning, come home at night, burned out because of work through almost all his life to the point that it became.
 A slave of the system. Yes, it became an habit and a normal way of living.
 And it made me realize that I've learned a lot from my father.
 He taught me perseverance, hard work, you know, when you face adversity, you know, to never give up until you achieve it.
 But also, he taught me a lesson that.
 In a way that I don't want to be like him, even if he is happy.
 It's because I realize I don't think he knows anything else like he works through all his life.
 And I don't want to live to work.
 I want to work for it for you know what I mean?
 I want to decide when I work, you know, I feel like like he he lived to work instead of working for a living.
 And perhaps it's because he did not have choice.
 He was the older of his family.
 They had they were nine kids.
 His dad, my grandfather died when he was young, so he had to become the father of the family and work to put money on the table.
 So perhaps that what made him that way.
 And he became like I can have it for him.
 My dad taught me when I was at school, I was bullied at school.
 He's the first one who initiated me to martial art.
 He taught me karate. My dad, my dad was a black belt in Kyoko Shin karate as well.
 But because he was working too much, he didn't have time to teach me.
 And I needed self-defense in order to defend myself.
 I have a winning a great carer in mixed martial art, but in the in the schoolyard, that's a good record.
 My record is not very good.
 When you're a kid and you're about seven, eight years old and you're facing bullied bullies that are two to three years older than yourself,
 it's not the same thing than when you're 25 and the guy is 28.
 So there is a big discrepancy in terms of maturity.
 So my dad taught me introduced me to karate.
 Then he didn't have time to teach me.
 Then he put me in a school with a teacher.
 It was Jean Couture.
 And I grew up with a lot of anger.
 And there were two persons I was afraid going up.
 It was my dad. My dad was very severe, very strict with me.
 And I'm glad he was because I could have become very bad.
 I could have become chosen on a different path.
 People see me as a nice guy. And I am a nice guy.
 I try to be a good role model, but I could easily have turned towards our own.
 There's darkness somewhere in there.
 Yes, there are a lot. And a lot of my friends have chosen that path.
 And unfortunately, they are not with me today.
 Even if I'm from Canada and Canada seems like the nicest country in the world.
 Like I said, even if you live in a nice country, not always nice thing.
 It depends on the situation.
 But that's what my dad taught me.
 And he gave me that because I'm very good at learning by observing people.
 And by observing him, I see the struggle he had with alcoholism and what he did.
 The pain sometimes that he inflicted to us, to my family.
 But how he turned, he did that 180 degree.
 And I really admire that.
 And I know it was very, very hard for him. And he did it.
 For me, that's a great role model for me.
 So with your dad being an engine of basically hard work
 and you finding a balance of being able to work your ass off,
 but also to be able to enjoy a piece of chocolate.
 What is a perfect day in the life of George St. Pierre look like?
 So like if you were to go through a day that's very productive,
 but also one that makes you sit back and enjoy and say that was a good day.
 What's that look like? What are we talking about?
 When do you wake up? What do you eat? What do you do?
 It changed over the years. When I was younger, I had a good day.
 It was like a good training session or achieving a good thing in my training.
 And that's why I was very good at it because I was obsessed.
 I think to be good at something, you need to become obsessed.
 And to me, performing in my training was everything.
 When I had a bad training session, I didn't tell my training partner.
 I was acting like because of my ego, I didn't tell nobody.
 I was like, hey, then I go in the locker room and like, man,
 then I'm playing the training in my mind.
 I'm saying, I should have done this, should have done that.
 And it haunts me. It haunts me, man.
 It's a training and it haunts me until the next training session
 when I can redeem myself. That's how it is.
 When we used to train all together back in Canada,
 we had David Loiseau, we had Patrick Côté, we had Dennis Kang,
 Steve Vigneault, Jonathan Goulet.
 They were all like the best guys in Canada that were training with each other.
 Before, we were training in different gyms, but once a week,
 I made it in a way that I contacted everybody that we all joined forces
 and we exchanged ideas and we trained with each other.
 So a friendly, I would say friendly competition.
 It was not malicious, but it was hard training.
 Our goal was to improve, but it wasn't very competitive.
 And when that day you used to get out of the training session
 with a bad performance for me, it used to haunt me until the following week
 when I could give it back and perform better with the guy
 that I had the most trouble with. That's how it was.
 And that's how you get better.
 But it was not a training where we were trying to do malicious things to one another.
 You know what I mean? It needs to be playful, but playful but competitive.
 When I had a good training session because the sparring was on a Friday,
 I had the best weekend in the world. I was going out with my friends,
 playing, partying, and having fun. That was my ideal day back in the day.
 Today has changed. My life has changed.
 I am not the same person I used to be when I went on my knees
 and begged the UFC for a title shot.
 I am wealthy, I am healthy, most importantly. That's the most important thing.
 And as good as my career was, my private life is a million times better.
 People ask me sometimes, they always wonder, they try to ask me.
 And it's normal. A lot of people are curious and they are reporters.
 And in the sport of mixed martial arts, we say we play basketball, we play soccer,
 but we don't play fighting.
 So when you expose your private life, we've seen that happen in the fight
 with sometimes Conor McGregor and Khabib.
 Your competitor knows that he cannot get to you, so what he will do,
 he will try to get to someone that you love.
 So man, I never expose my private life.
 I never post on Instagram of my family, of my stuff.
 That's the reason why. Because I'm in the business of fighting.
 And people know that they cannot get to me.
 And I believe that because I was bullied when I was young,
 I didn't realize that when I was young, but it helps me deal with the mental warfare
 that I had to face later on in my life in mixed martial arts,
 because it's a very ego test sport and there's a lot of intimidation.
 And I was used to this thing when I was young, so it does not get to me.
 However, the good way to get to me, go try to get to someone I love.
 Now man, I'm going to go crazy. You know what I mean?
 And I'm aware of that. So in order to protect myself,
 because I'm aware I'm a public person,
 so I try to always keep my surroundings in the private.
 One of the ways that your friend, mine, Joe Rogan, has been an inspiration,
 he's got an incredible family.
 And he for the most part, it started to change recently,
 actually it's kind of interesting, but for the most part,
 he kept it pretty secret. He's a comedian, comedians talk about everything,
 he doesn't really talk about it. And there's something to that.
 It preserves the magic of the silence of the private life.
 And I think it can affect the development of the kid,
 if the kid grew up being, oh he's the son of that guy instead of being his own person.
 You know what I mean? So for me it's very important.
 Like my parents are older, it's fine, but it taught me a big lesson.
 When I'm with my friend at the dinner or anything, I talk with the person,
 always share a thing, but when I'm talking, I'm aware of the audience I'm in front.
 Yeah, but oftentimes those people are just incredible.
 It kind of makes me sad that there's a lot of people that love you, right?
 And there are a lot of really incredible people and you'll never get to really know their story.
 I don't know, for me it makes me sad. You see them at airports and stuff,
 people will tell me they listen to this podcast or something like that.
 And I can tell they're incredible people and it's like a little goodbye of a possible friend.
 It makes me sad. It makes me lonely. It's almost like celebrity is a lonely thing.
 So the higher the celebrity, the more lonely you become in some kind of way.
 But of course you have that little gem of a private life.
 Personally, I believe every relationship, I don't like to use this term,
 but it's always a give and take relationship.
 You can gain something and the person, it could be something not materialistic,
 like something always a good, confident, someone that can give me good advice.
 It's a word I would say like extensional.
 If a pilot has a copilot, the copilot has an extensional relationship with him.
 So he knows if he gets sick or he faint, he's there to make sure, he's there to help.
 And I think in every relation, it's about compatibility, but it's about extensionality, right?
 In a way that if that person is extensional.
 And sometimes we talk about love, you know, like sometimes I think, is it a BS word or not?
 Because I myself sometimes look at myself in the mirror and when I do stupid thing,
 sometimes I love myself a lot and sometimes I don't. You know what I mean?
 Because I'm angry at myself. I've done stupid thing.
 That means sometimes love could be fluctuating. You know what I mean?
 How about in relationship, sometimes people they say they love each other,
 but then when they divorce, they go, oh, I want the house and the dog and the kids stay with me.
 And you know what I mean? If you love, by definition, if you really love someone,
 and let's say you're an old man and you love a woman and she decide to leave you for a younger man.
 If you really love her, you're going to help her pack and leave.
 But in our society, sometimes we want to hone something.
 To me, love includes the missing somebody, the losing somebody, the anger at somebody.
 It's all the passion, feelings towards somebody. That's all love.
 I, you know, it's all part of the thing. It's the ups and downs.
 It's the sad thing is when the feelings towards a person, the ups and downs go away, the forgetting.
 That's the opposite of love. So the opposite of love isn't hate.
 To me, the opposite of love is forgetting. And that's a much bigger, the depth of human connection.
 That's how I see love.
 So sometimes I try to stay positive and I've been asked how I try to,
 because I have the image of someone who's positive, but I go through my own demon as well.
 However, we talk about love when I was young.
 You know, like I didn't love who I was at first. That's how I love.
 I learned to kind of love myself.
 Like I didn't, I didn't when I was going through bullying, I was, I believe I was bullied because I didn't love myself.
 I, because I project a very bad image of what I think of myself. I was a kid that lacked a lot of confidence.
 I was looking down when I was walking. I shrugged my shoulder.
 When someone was talking to me, I was avoiding eye contact.
 So I was a very easy target for bullies.
 And I think bullies are like predatory animal in nature. They will hunt the easier prey.
 They would don't, they don't go, the lion don't go for the alpha bull.
 They go for the one who's hold or who's sick, the weakest one.
 And bullies are the same in society, I believe.
 And I didn't like to be bullied, of course, but I didn't like the person that I was.
 But I found out through martial art, the respect and my coach was extraordinary to me.
 He taught me discipline and self-strength.
 And I found out that I needed to, in order to love myself, I needed to change myself.
 Because I didn't, when I looked at myself in the mirror, I didn't like what I saw.
 So I decided to become like someone that I would love.
 So I tried to look people straight up and trying to showcase a more confident image that I had.
 And it was hard in the beginning because I didn't really believe in it, but I faked it until kind of I make it.
 So when I was walking at school, more and more I was learning how to become more confident.
 And I was like taking charge, the teacher was asking questions.
 At first I was never answering, I was like this, waiting always to be the last.
 Then I was, hey, I know what the answer, this is the answer.
 I got out of my comfort zone, so to speak.
 And I wish I would tell you that I got out of bullying because a Hollywood story, I used martial art to beat up all the bullies.
 But it's not how it happened to me.
 It happened because I changed myself from the inside out.
 And I learned how to, because I didn't love myself in the beginning, I learned how to become like someone that I love.
 And even now, like I'm by no mean perfect, I do a lot of stupid thing, but I learn as a person.
 And even I do have something stupid, I'm like, shoot, I did something stupid.
 At least I can apologize to the person if I realize.
 And I know that I'm not the person I was in the past.
 I'm the person that I am right now.
 So I can learn and become that image of the person that I love.
 So in a way, the reason I'm trying to be positive and I'm able to stay positive sometime in life is because I'm always trying to be like that person that I love.
 And I think if you don't look yourself in the mirror and don't love yourself or don't see any positive future for yourself,
 how can you change your environment if you cannot change yourself?
 You know what I mean? You will never be happy if you're not happy when you look at yourself in the mirror.
 So change yourself first, then change your, you know, it's not the environment that can change for yourself.
 You have to go from the inside out, you know?
 This I learned through martial art. I had a coach who was incredible.
 He used to drill these ideas in my head and give me confidence, you know, like this telling me all these beautiful things about myself.
 And now he's dead now, unfortunately, peace to him. But he was incredible, incredible.
 He was very, very strict. I was afraid of him. I was afraid of my dad and afraid of him.
 He couldn't teach nowadays like he used to teach me because he would be probably in jail, you know?
 But I'm glad he did it because for the time being, that's what I needed.
 And I would never have had that career I had in mixed martial art without this
 because I would never have got out of my comfort zone. It would have been impossible.
 And in order to improve in life, you need to get out of your comfort zone. It's hard, very hard to do.
 And strive to be the person that you can love. That's beautifully put, George.
 If you were to give advice to a young person today about life, what would you tell him?
 If he takes life with the same mentality that I do, if he has the same taste of things that I have,
 I would tell him, you know, for sport, for life in general, I would say, if you will have a dream,
 you know, like make everything in your power and work very hard, you know, never take no for an answer
 and go through hell in order to achieve it. Don't work hard only, but work smart.
 That's, I think, the problems with a lot of people. They work hard. They can work hard.
 They burn themselves. They don't work smart, whether it is in science and business,
 they make bad choices or they're badly informed in sport. How many guys I've seen ruin their career in the gym?
 They spar so hard, they ruin themselves in the gyms. They leave their career in the gyms.
 What I would say to, for example, because my field of expertise is in sport, of mixed martial art,
 I would say to a young kid, make your training playful. You know, when you get ready for competition,
 you need to try to recreate those elements that make you go outside of your comfort zone.
 But in everyday life in general, make your training playful.
 Don't make it like a hardcore competition about who's winning, who's losing. Make it playful.
 So it will increase your... because you will not be afraid of getting hurt or losing.
 You will be tempted to try more things and it will make you become more creative.
 You know, that brings up another question about learning.
 So you value knowledge and you're exceptional at basically being very good at learning and figuring stuff out.
 New things or going deeper on the things you already know.
 So what advice would you have for how to learn effectively? How, you know, you say work smart.
 How do you figure this game out?
 I believe the best way to learn is learning from other people's mistake.
 However, I'm not perfect and I've learned from my mistakes as well.
 And sometimes it took me a few mistakes to learn the same thing.
 But especially in the sport of mixed martial art, because we're talking about the failure,
 it could have very serious outcome on someone's life and well-being.
 So it's crucial to try to learn from other people's mistakes.
 Do you study others?
 Yes, every fight I've studied my opponent and I've studied myself as well to know what...
 How my strength mix versus my opponent weaknesses and how can I make the fight go in a way that I'm taking my opponent outside of his comfort zone.
 Very often people are good at studying their opponent, but they're not good at looking at themselves in the mirror
 and knowing what they should do in order to maximize their odds of success, right?
 That's why I always thought for me it was important to not be the best at one thing, but be very good at everything.
 That's why I always seek advice from the best in every discipline.
 Like I wrestle with the best wrestler I could be with.
 I box with the best boxers.
 I practice karate with the best karate fighters.
 Same thing in Jiu-Jitsu.
 I train Jiu-Jitsu with the best Jiu-Jitsu guys.
 However, when I mix everything and mix martial art, because I'm very competent in every area,
 so when I'm fighting someone I'm very good at identifying where he's the less competent.
 I know for a fact that because I'm competent everywhere, if I can bring the fight where he's outside of his comfort zone,
 it increases my odds of winning.
 There's no certainty.
 It's all about odds, I believe, because there is always an X factor that you do not control.
 It's fascinating to see you actually because you've been a student of movement.
 You've been exploring all kinds of gymnastics, all that kind of stuff.
 There's something reminiscent to like Conor McGregor is one other martial artist that's kind of explored movement,
 been a scholar of movement.
 At least from my perspective, it's very sort of Bruce Lee-like.
 It's almost making a study of the human body and all the possible things you can do.
 Is there a philosophy behind that that you have?
 You talk about Bruce Lee, man.
 You say that best. He changes my life too.
 He was ahead of his time.
 Yeah, incredible.
 A lot of people talk to me and ask me, is Bruce Lee would have been able to fight in UFC?
 I don't think so. I don't know.
 I think he was a martial artist. He could have defended himself,
 but to say that he could have competed amongst the elite fighter, perhaps in his time,
 but for sure, if you put him in UFC right now, the sport has improved incredibly since then.
 But in terms of philosophy, Bruce Lee was amazing.
 Just to prove that he was ahead of his time, he was talking about using your longest weapon against your opponent's nearest point.
 And we see that kick that got popularized by John Jones, the sidekick to the tie.
 His longest weapon against your nearest point.
 In boxing is the jab, but in MMA, when you can use all your weapon, that's the kick to the tie.
 And I feel there is kind of three dimensions in martial art.
 There is the philosopher like Bruce Lee.
 There is the choreographed people.
 For example, you see in movies, the stunt people, they're incredible.
 Or the one that does the forms and karate, like jumping, spin kick, back kick, acrobatic stuff, mixed martial art.
 They are unbelievable.
 And there is also the one that competes in fighting.
 That's what I do. I personally specialize in.
 Well, you also do the philosophy.
 I do a little bit of philosophy, but that's a consequence.
 I guess we all practice the three dimensions because martial art, I would say, whether you want it or not, you have to touch these three dimensions.
 But you will specialize in one.
 I specialize through my life in fighting, like the real thing in terms of fighting, competition.
 Of course, if you do martial art, you will be able to defend yourself because it's a self defense.
 However, you might not be able to fight as an elite and the most prestigious organization.
 And you might not be able to perform the stunt that, for example, the stuntmen have done in the series I was playing in the Falcon and Winter Soldier.
 These guys are incredible. They're like real life superhero things they do.
 To me, it's fascinating. It's amazing.
 And also Bruce Lee, the philosopher.
 How many hours he took thinking about these stuff?
 I'm sure he did not just came out of nowhere.
 He was thinking. That's mean he slept on this.
 How many hours? It's just unbelievable.
 He's like water, my friend.
 How many times has he thought about water going to bed before he said that?
 Let me ask a very important fundamental question about martial arts.
 We're both wearing a suit and tie.
 Joe Rogan thinks that wearing a tie is a huge disadvantage.
 Is it a clip on or is it an actual tie?
 It's an actual tie.
 So do you agree or disagree with Joe Rogan that wearing a tie is a martial arts significant disadvantage in terms of combat in a combat scenario?
 In a fight, I think it would be a disadvantage.
 Yes.
 Okay.
 I work as a security bouncer in nightclubs and event when I was 18 years old.
 Yes.
 And sometimes I had to work in certain event that I was in suit and tie.
 I never had to use my force to take someone out when I was in suit and tie.
 But if I would have had to before going to the table to physically take the guy out, I would have removed my tie.
 And I would have removed my vest for sure.
 And I would have called backup for sure.
 And I would have probably used the element of surprise to be first on the guy.
 Yes.
 When you're in a bar, same thing.
 You call backup first and you make sure you ask the waitress before to clean the table before you go.
 Yeah.
 And when you go, you have to use the element of surprise.
 Yeah.
 Because fighting in mixed martial arts and fighting in the street, it's two different things.
 And yes, I'm a mixed martial art competitor.
 That's what I've done all my life.
 But I had a lot of street fight in my life.
 A lot when I was in.
 What's the difference?
 Oh my God.
 It's a huge difference.
 There are guys that if I would have a choice to fight, for example, certain guys in UFC in a street fight and fight like other guys that are not in UFC,
 I would maybe sometimes pick guys that are not in UFC, not necessarily.
 Because in the street fight, there's no referee that says go.
 It's the element of surprise.
 And when you're a nice guy, you're not the aggressor.
 You always have the element of surprise.
 That's what it taught me.
 Oh, interesting.
 Yes, because if...
 Aggression, you're sacrificing the surprise.
 The person will not come punch you without warning.
 It needs to trigger something.
 It's something that needs to be triggered before.
 So if someone comes because he's looking for trouble,
 there's a sign that he's looking for trouble.
 So I was just talking with Bass Ruth this weekend about it.
 And I saw that every every martial art comes from like some martial arts are from exclusive vehicles for competition.
 Yes, like sport karate, like certain martial arts.
 But traditional martial arts are for the street, are for self-defense.
 And I started my background in Kyokushin karate.
 So it's for and I did Japanese Jiu Jitsu.
 So my background before I even start training for mixed martial art, my background is in self-defense.
 And it's very important to understand that in a street fight, the element of surprise is everything.
 And there are no rules.
 You can go for the eyes, the necks.
 It's a surprise.
 Total ball game.
 You know what I mean?
 You have the chair, the beard.
 There's so much more thing going on.
 So the idea of because you are a UFC fighter, you think you're invincible.
 This is BS.
 Anybody can come.
 Like if a big guy who punched very hard, most people don't know how to punch.
 By the way, they don't know how to make a fist and throw it in a forward direction.
 But if someone knows how to do it, I don't care who you are.
 If you could be Francis and Genu, someone come behind your head and bang or let's say there's an argument and you get surprised by a punch.
 You can beat you up and lose a fight.
 It doesn't matter.
 The element of surprise is everything.
 So you were saying remove all the sources of the elements of surprise.
 Clear the bar, remove the tie.
 I still disagree with you about the tie.
 But just for your information, if someone comes looking for trouble and you see me do this and going sideways, that's my position that I'm thinking maybe something will happen.
 And I'm about that's a good thing about doing the element.
 I'm about to punch you or to do to do something to take care of this.
 See, to flip the table on you then wearing a tie is communicating the nice guy image.
 So it actually gives you the freedom for more elements of surprise by wearing the tie.
 If you take it off, that's more you're limiting your options because nobody's going to expect the guy in the tie to do anything.
 I'm a big believer that sometimes it's not only materialism.
 It's what you project.
 That's true.
 Let's say I had troubles in a bar and I was able to deflect.
 The guy was looking for trouble talking to me and I was able to deflect his whole aggressivity by saying like, hey, man, that's a nice shirt.
 Where did you get it?
 Like saying like something was stupid like this.
 Then it kind of break, break the momentum.
 And the guy was looking for trouble.
 I don't want to fight you.
 I don't want to fight you.
 But I'm not going to wait until you pull you make the first move because the minute you touch me, you push me or you touch me, you declare war.
 And the war is unleashed, my friend.
 And I'm taking you out of order with the necessary force.
 Of course, you know, that's the thing with martial art.
 If you use the necessary force to take out a problem, it's OK.
 But if you you know, you take advantage of it, that's when it's not all right because it's a weapon.
 So if someone comes up to me, that's my position.
 And now I'm assessing the situation.
 You know, that's that's how they teach in self-defense here.
 Never put your hands down.
 I was there.
 Because I'm down or boom.
 Like what this is, this is very important and you never you always your center line on the side.
 Yeah, like this.
 If someone knows martial art, he will recognize that pattern.
 But if you go like if someone talked to you and you go like this, that's mean you're telling the guy that you want to fight.
 You don't want to do that.
 You don't want to.
 Yeah, that's that's that's you know, that's that's the position because your hand are here.
 You know, whatever you can do, you're here.
 Well, also your ear tells a story.
 It's not everybody that knows that.
 However, it's some people might think that it's my mom grabbed me by the ear and pulled me because I didn't listen to her.
 You know, a real fight in the street and a fight in the mixed martial arts is a different ballgame.
 What do you think is the best martial art to prepare you for street fighting?
 You know, people often kind of have this discussion of jiu-jitsu, maybe boxing, maybe wrestling.
 Do you think we talk about a young person studying martial arts to prepare themselves for a street fight?
 It's often much different than a mixed martial art fight.
 And I know there is a lot of BS in the world of martial arts, like self-defense, stuff like that.
 But I believe self-defense is very important in a way to understand the situation, to understand those those situations that might occur, how to deal with it.
 Because not necessarily that we talk about the technicality, we talk about the tactically, the tactics.
 You know, like when I'm talking to you about the element of surprise is important. This is not technique.
 A technique is a punch or techniques that I physically will use to enable my opponent, my aggressor.
 Tactic is the tactic I'm telling you about is in a street fight.
 If someone is looking for trouble and I feel the heat rising as the conversation goes, that's the position I'm going to take.
 And I have to be first. I cannot let him go first. So I have to strike first or do something.
 This is the first thing that generally I have to agree on.
 After that, of course, there is the knowledge. If you're a professional fighter, you have a huge advantage.
 Once the fight is started, the war is declared. Now everything goes.
 But generally speaking, the person that will intervene physically, that will have the first blow or the first, you know, the first punch will have a huge advantage.
 It's like doing a 100 meter race and having a head start, you know, and that you can't prepare for with any martial art.
 Yeah. And if I'm a smart guy, I know how to fight. If a guy like an heavyweight champion comes to me or like like like, you know, I know.
 I know what to do to disable him. I like boom or here and then the neck, you know, like if you if you blind him, what is he going to do?
 You know what I mean? So or a bottle. You know what I mean?
 So the element of surprise is it's everything.
 So that's why it's always always good to be the nice guy and not looking for trouble, because if you're not looking for trouble, you have the head start.
 You have the option of having an head start.
 So what you're saying is being a nice guy is the is the best form of self-defense, maybe a little humor.
 Yes. You know, I have learned that I've learned that when I was a kid.
 Yeah, I was about maybe seven, six, six years old.
 We used to to play in much as a lot of snow. We used to play king of the mountain.
 Yeah, that's the first combat lesson that I've learned in my life.
 And I managed somehow. It was a lot of kids.
 I managed to get on the top of the mountain and another guy came in on top of the mountain and he was angry that before I was there before him.
 When you play king of the mountain, it was a mountain of snow.
 You don't strike each other. We just wrestle and push.
 And I managed to be first. And when he came, he says to me, say, OK, you want to you want to fight?
 And I said, yeah, I don't know what he means. Like I want to fight.
 You want to wrestle? I say yes. He punched me right in the face.
 Boom. And then I and then I fall on the bottom of the mountain.
 Then when I fall down, I remember that vision in my life because it's it's I will remember that for the rest of my life.
 I'm about to stand up and I see the blood coming out of my nose.
 I see that the snow is red because my nose is bleeding.
 Now I remember the element of surprises, everything. My first street fight, I lost it.
 I got I did get knocked up, but I got I got dropped on the bottom of the snow mountain.
 And I was like, you got me because I was not expecting my hand.
 I was not expecting a punch. So from there, when I felt the heat of an injury, an argument or something was not right, I always stroke first.
 I didn't win all my fight because sometimes there were more than one guys on me, you know.
 But I think it's important to not be the aggressor.
 So you have the element of surprise and always use that in your favor.
 That's so brilliant. Let me go from the very practical to the most impractically huge question about the meaning of life.
 You said that one great depths of unrelenting sorrow punctuated by great peaks of joy and liberation.
 The result is delicious. So what do you think is the meaning of this whole journey that we're on this life?
 What makes life delicious to me? You know, satisfaction is the end for me.
 Like, like, like I always if I'm satisfied, that's mean I have no nothing to live for.
 I'm talking I'm not talking only about my career, about I talk about my life.
 What do you want in your life? You want you want kids, you want a family, you want to be champion.
 What do you want in your life? You have you have like a long term goal, short term goal.
 In mixed martial art, I achieve what I needed to achieve.
 I'm satisfied. I'm no longer the same George St. Pierre than when I was begging for a title shot on my knees.
 I move on for it from it. Now I had a chance to go into movies.
 Now that same insane, that same insane drive that had to be the champion in the world.
 I put it into acting like I'm having a lot of acting class now. And luckily for me, the timing was amazing.
 I got I got cast for the Falcon and the Winter Soldier that is on Disney Plus Channel.
 It's a huge, huge project to be part of for me because it's like you play basketball, you have a chance to go for the NBA right away.
 I was very lucky. The timing was just too perfect.
 And so you need to constantly challenging yourself and having goals to achieve, you know, like that.
 Keep your brain activated. I keep working.
 And the proof of that is that you see sometimes some old people like when they retire very often, sometimes you see that they got sick and they die or because they they.
 It's either because sometimes we think we we we we certainly will make benefits, we'll do something good for them by.
 Making that work and giving them a break. So in our mind, we're like, oh, he's going to be able to relax.
 But in their mind, it's not good because they're not busy. They have nothing to live for.
 Like my dad is used to work all the time and he has always something to do.
 He's retired now. I myself now call him by force to find him some job.
 Hey, dad, can you come in my house?
 I have this thing to repair. I don't know how to do it. So he gives him it gives him a reason not to live on because he has other things to do.
 But what I mean is also in life, I think you always don't be afraid to aim high.
 Don't don't be afraid to fix your objective very high and never be able to reach it.
 Be afraid of reaching your goals, essentially. I mean, you always have to keep moving it out.
 You think there's a it's an interesting question because you've been acting in some really exciting things.
 Do you think there's a dramatic role where it's basically, you know, you go full Robert De Niro in Taxi Driver.
 Do you think there'll be a full length feature film with George St. Pierre?
 I like it. There is level to this thing. I'm aware that I have to restart as a white belt.
 And for some people, it could be discouraging. But for me, man, it's great. I love it. I freaking love it.
 I embrace it because everybody told me like I would never be able to do it. And it's fine.
 But the and also the outcome of a failure in the sport of mixed martial art is much more serious than the outcome of a failure for a movie, for example.
 For for if you say when you should zag in a fight, you get knocked out. If you say when you should zag and unset, cut, we'll do it again.
 And I know that I will be most likely be true chosen for action martial art roles because that's my background.
 There is this new trend in Hollywood now when they want someone to play an Italian guy, they're going to choose a real Italian person.
 When they want someone to play a Russian guy, they're going to choose someone who has a real Russian background.
 Now they want a real martial art fighter. I've done fighting all my life. I just need to improve my acting skill.
 But when I train in acting, I get myself out of my comfort zone. I'm not playing a role of a martial art guy.
 I'm playing like romance, comedy, drama. So when I go on set and playing.
 The role of a badass martial art guy, it's easier. So like in training for a fight, I always make my preparation harder than the actual task.
 I would love to see where I don't know if you've seen the wrestler with Make Your Work. Oh, yeah.
 Those types of films. I would love to. I would love to you do something like that.
 If not now, then in 10, 20 years, I could see that. That would be amazing. There's levels to the game, right?
 Yes, it's gradual. And I'm aware that I don't want to take something on my shoulder that I won't be able to deliver.
 It's like a fighter wants to go for a title shot right away. It could very well break him.
 You know what I mean? And I don't want to do that because I know I've done some gigs in the past,
 but I was not focusing on it because I was focusing on competing as a martial art.
 Martial art is in competition in MMA, but now I take it very seriously.
 So I cannot do the same mistake again because I've done some stuff. I've done it for the money and it was good.
 It was fun to be beat up by Jacques-Claude Van Damme, Steven Seagal and everything.
 But my acting was not on point, you know, at that time.
 So every time I'm going to come back from now on on screen, you need to be sharp because you cannot mess it up.
 If you mess it up, it's like a loss on your record. You're not taken seriously.
 So that's how I see it. And it's very fun because I had the chance to talk to a lot of guys.
 And on top of all the class that I'm having, like a few days ago, I was with Danny Trujo.
 And I always seek the advice of actors when I see some of them, because I really admire how they do, you know, how they project their emotion.
 And I asked him, Danny Trujo, I said to him, he's an amazing guy, by the way, very nice guy.
 And I asked him, I say, how do you do to be because you scared the hell out of me?
 How do you do to be so scary? Like, what is your trick?
 And he tells me, he's like, George, if you threaten things, if you threat someone and you scream at him, I'm going to kill you.
 It's not as scary if you're smiling and you say, I'm going to kill you.
 Like, and he says also to me that another advice he gave me is like, when you say this, think about you killing him for real.
 That how you hate him and how you're going to kill him. So the camera will take the emotion out.
 Don't try physically to do that. That's the mistake I used to do before.
 I used to physically show that I'm strong and angry and to be mean.
 So these are just an example of tricks that I learned sometimes when I met an actor.
 I always try to learn from everybody that I met in my life.
 It's a difficult journey because then you have to go to some dark places as a person because you really have to imagine some dark things.
 It's fascinating, actually.
 I think a lot of the actors, they have sometimes problems because of that.
 Because now I understand why. It's like if you work on your bicep, your bicep will grow, right?
 It's because it is the stress that you put on it that will make it grow, right?
 Emotions, I believe, are the same way.
 If you're used to dig inside of you down deep to make your negative, depressive emotion come out,
 if something bad in your life happens, you will fall into those emotions much more rapidly than someone who does not that every day.
 You know what I mean? Because it's like a muscle memory.
 If you program yourself to react a certain way, you will reach that point very often.
 So that's why sometimes you see some guys, we often blame it on drugs, but I think it's also because of the acting.
 They're used to be so on the hop top and sometimes they go to the down deep, so they're both extreme, you know?
 You've got to be psychologically tough. And that's life.
 I'm so excited to see you challenge yourself in that direction.
 That's one thing that I'm a little bit afraid that happened to me.
 I really hope I'll always be having a problem to control my emotion, be too much extreme.
 I hope it does not happen to me.
 And if I feel that I'm going towards that, I'm going to give up on my new objective and find something else to achieve.
 But in your personal life, you want to be real with your emotions.
 You don't want to. It doesn't.
 Just like with biceps, you don't want biceps that are too big.
 You are real, but you are extreme real.
 And that's what I think sometimes could happen to actors when they go too much into their emotion.
 We talk about like sometimes guys that commit suicide, perhaps.
 I don't know because I don't know their real life, but it could be something that they get so much into their character.
 I didn't understand it at first because I'd never had acting class.
 But after a while that you have acting class, now you start to realize that, yeah, I understand why some actor gets caught up in their emotion,
 because that can have an influence on their life, right?
 You're on a fascinating journey, George.
 I can't tell you how much it means to me that you'll be so nice to me, that you'll give me so much respect.
 Just that tells everything I need to know about you as a human being.
 With everything you've accomplished, you waste all your time and you're so nice to me just as a fellow human being.
 Man, I have so much respect. I'm so honored.
 And the energy you give me by just seeing me showing up here, I'll carry that forward for a long time to come, George.
 I love it. Thank you so much for talking to me.
 Thank you, Lex, for having me on the show. I've been looking to talk to you for a long time.
 For me, talking to a guy like you, it's a great learning experience because I always learn.
 And life is fascinating to me.
 And all the experience that we have in life, it's something that can make us grow.
 And this experience for me just makes me grow as well.
 Plus, we look pretty damn sharp today.
 Man in black, my friend. Thanks, George. Nice.
 And hope to see you next time.