Joe Rogan: Fear, Love, Chaos, and the Joe Rogan Experience | Lex Fridman Podcast #127
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Joe Rogan is a comedian, UFC commentator, and the host of the Joe Rogan Experience.  Please check out our sponsors to get a discount and to support this podcast:
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EPISODE LINKS:
Joe's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/joerogan
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JRE (Spotify): https://open.spotify.com/show/4rOoJ6Egrf8K2IrywzwOMk
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OUTLINE:
0:00 - Introduction
1:17 - JRE theme on guitar
1:54 - Fear of mortality
3:24 - Chaos of 2020 and beyond
7:08 - Are we going to be okay?
16:07 - Violence, competition, and Sober October
23:22 - Mike Tyson
24:25 - Managing obsession
26:49 - Jiu jitsu game
32:31 - Best martial art for self defense
36:06 - Second amendment
40:35 - Memorable JRE moments
46:08 - Ideas breed in brains of humans
52:44 - Advice for Lex
1:02:45 - Long-form conversation
1:09:05 - Meaning of life

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 The following is a conversation with Joe Rogan that we recorded after my recent appearance on his podcast, The Joe Rogan Experience. Joe has been an inspiration to me and I thank to millions of people for just being somebody who puts love out there in the world and being genuinely curious about wild ideas from chimps and psychedelics to quantum mechanics and artificial intelligence. Like many of you, I've been a fan of his podcast for over a decade and now, somehow, miraculously, am humbled to be able to call him a friend. If you enjoy this thing, subscribe on YouTube, review it with Five Stars on Apple Podcast, follow on Spotify, support on Patreon, or connect with me on Twitter at Lex Friedman. Today's sponsors are Neuro, Eight Sleep, Dollar Shave Club, and Olive Garden, home of the Unlimited Breadsticks and Brian Red Band's Favorite Restaurant. Check out the first three of the sponsors in the description to get a discount and to support this podcast. I usually do full ad reads here, I never ads in the middle, but this time, I'll just go straight to the conversation with a bit of guitar first. Shiny Ogre by Putty Do you ponder your mortality? Are you afraid of death? I do think about it sometimes. I mean, it does pop into my head sometimes. Just the fact that, I mean, I'm 53. So if everything goes great, I have less than 50 years left. If everything goes great, like no car accidents, no injuries. But it could happen today. This could be your last day. Could be. That's kind of a stoic thing to meditate on death. There's a bunch of philosophers, Ernest Becker and Sheldon Solomon. They believe that death is at the core of everything. Wrote this book, Warm at the Core. So does that come into play in the way you see the world? I think having a sense of urgency is very beneficial and understanding that your time is limited can aid you greatly. I think knowing that this is a temporary time, that we have finite life spans, I think there's great power in that because it motivates you. It gets you going. I think being an immortal, living forever would be one of the most depressing things, particularly if everybody else was dying around you. And I think one of the things that makes life so interesting and fascinating is that it doesn't last. You know, that you really get a brief amount of time here. And really by the time you're just starting to kind of figure yourself out who you are and how not to screw things up so bad, like time's up. The ride's over. What about from your daughter's perspective? Do you think about the world we're in now and what kind of world you're going to leave them? I do. And do you worry about it? I do. Yeah, I do. I see these protests and riots and chaos and so much anger in the world today. And then particularly today, I think because of the pandemic and the fact that so many folks are out of work and through no fault of their own and can't make ends meet and these people feel so helpless and angry, it's a particularly divisive time. It's a particularly turmoil filled time. And it just doesn't seem like the world of a year ago even, it feels very chaotic and dangerous. And it's a small thing in terms of the possibilities of things that could happen to the world, like a pandemic, the one we've experienced, it really just doubles the amount of deaths on a bad flu year. So relatively speaking is a small thing in comparison to super volcano eruptions, asteroid impact, a real horrific pandemic or one that really wipes out millions and millions of people. It's stunning how fragile civility is. It's stunning how fragile our society really is that something like this can come along, some unprecedented thing can come along and all of a sudden everybody's out of work for six months and then everybody's at each other's throats. And then politically everyone's at each other's throats. And then with the advent of social media and the images that you can see with the videos of police abuse and just racial tensions are an all time high to a point where like if you asked me just five or six years ago, like have racial problems in this country largely been alleviated, I'd probably say, yeah, it's way better than it's ever been before. But now you could argue that it's not. Now you could argue it's no, it's way worse in just a small amount of time. It's way worse than it's ever been during my lifetime while I'm aware of it. Obviously when I was a young boy in the 60s, they were still going through the civil rights movement but now it just seems very fever pitched. And I think a lot of that is because of the pandemic and is because of all the heightened just tension. One I liken it to is road rage because people have road rage not just because they're in the car and no one can get to them, but also because you're at a heightened state because you're driving fast and you know you're driving fast. You know you have to make split second movements. And so anybody doing something like, what the people go crazy because they're already at an eight because they're in the car and they're moving very quickly. That's what it feels like with today with the pandemic. It feels like everybody is already at an eight. So anything that comes along, it's like light it all on fire, you know, burn it down. Like that's part of what I think is part of the reason for a lot of the looting and the riots and all the chaos. It's not just the people out of work, but it's also that everyone feels so tense already and everyone feels so helpless. And it's like, you know, doing something like that makes people, it just, it gives people a whole new motivation for chaos, a whole new motivation for doing destructive things that I've never experienced in my life. And your better days when you see a positive future, what do you think is the way out of this chaos of 2020? Like if you visualize a 2025, that's a better world than today. How do we get there and what does that look like? It's a good question. I can honestly say I don't know. And I wouldn't have said I don't know a year ago. A year ago, I would have said, we're going to be okay. As much as people hate Trump, the economy is doing great. I think we're going to be fine. That's not how I feel today. I don't think there's a clear solution politically because I think if Trump wins, people are going to be furious. And I think if Biden wins, people are going to be furious. Particularly like if things get more woke, you know, if people continue to enforce this force compliance and make people behave a certain way and act a certain way, which seems to be a part of what this whole woke thing is, that is the most disturbing for me is that I see what's going on. I see there's a lot of losers that have hopped on this and they shove it in people's faces and it doesn't have to make sense. Like there was a Black Lives Matter protest that stopped this woman at a restaurant. They were surrounding her outside a restaurant. They were forcing her to raise her fist in compliance. This is a woman who's marched for Black Lives Matter multiple times and the people all around her doing this were all white. It's all weird. My friend Coach T, he's a wrestling coach, is also on a podcast. My friend Brian Moses, his take on it is that black and he's a black guy. He says Black Lives Matter is a white cult. And I'm like, when you see that picture, it's hard to argue that he's got a point. I mean, it's clearly not all about that, but there's a lot of people that have jumped on board that are very much like cult members. Because the thing about Black Lives Matter or any movement is you can't control who joins. There's no entrance examination. So you don't go, okay, how do you feel about this? What's your perceptions on that? Like the man who shot the Trump supporter in Portland, that guy who murdered the Trump supporter and the cop shot him. That guy was walking around with his hand on his gun looking for Trump supporters. He's a known violent guy who was walking around looking for Trump supporters, found one and shot one. That has nothing to do with Black Lives Matter. He's a white guy. He shot another white guy. It's just madness. That kind of madness is disturbing to see it ramp up so quickly. There's been riots in Portland every night, oh, excuse me, demonstrations for 101 days now, 101 days in a row of them lighting things on fire, breaking into federal buildings. It's like, who ever saw that coming? Nobody saw that coming. So I don't know what the solution is and I don't know what it looks like in five years. So 2025, to answer your question, it could be anything. We could be looking at Mad Max. We could be looking at the apocalypse. We could also be looking at an invasion from another country. We could be looking at a war, like a real hot war. To put a little bit of responsibility on you, for me, I've listened to you since the Red Band, Olive Garden days, the very beginning. There was something in the way you communicated about the world, maybe there was others, but you were the one I was aware of, is you're open-minded and loving towards the world, especially as the podcast developed. You just demonstrated and lived this kind of just kindness or maybe even lack of jealousy in your own little profession of comedy. It was clear that you didn't succumb to the weaker aspects of human nature and thereby inspire people like me, who I was naturally, probably especially in the early 20s, kind of jealous on the success of others. And you're really the primary person that taught me to truly celebrate the success of others. And so by way of question, you kind of have a role in this of making a better 2025. You have such a big megaphone. Is there something you think you could do on this podcast with the words, the way you talk, the things you discuss that could create a better 2025? I think if anything, I could help in leading by example, but that's only going to help the people that are listening. I don't know what else I can do in terms of like make the world a better place other than express my hopes and wishes for that and just try to be as nice as I can to people as often as I can. But I also think that I've fallen into this weird category, particularly with the Spotify deal where I'm one of them now. I'm not a regular person anymore. Now I'm like some famous rich guy. Until you go from being a regular person to a famous rich guy that's out of touch. And that's a real issue whenever you're talking about the economy, about just real life problems. It's interesting. It kind of hurts my heart to hear people say about Elon Musk. He's just a billionaire. Yeah. It's an interesting statement. But I think if you just continue being you and he continue being him, people, I think people are just voicing their worry that you become some rich guy. I don't even know if they're doing that. I think they're just finding the way he describes it, an attack vector. Right. Yeah. And I think he's right. I think they could dismiss you by just saying, oh, you're just a that. You're easily definable. Right. But there's truth to that. If you're not careful, you can become out of touch. But that's an interesting thing. Why haven't you become out of touch? As a human off the podcast, you talk to somebody like me. You don't talk like a famous person or you don't act rich. You're better than others. Listen, I've talked to quite a few. You have too, but I've talked to a special kind of group of people that are Nobel Prize winners, let's say. They sometimes have an air to them that's of arrogance and you don't. What's that about? Well, you got to know what that is. That air of arrogance comes from drinking your own Kool-Aid. You start believing that somehow or another, just because you're getting praise from all these people, that you really are something different. Usually it exemplifies there's something there where there's a lack of struggle. I think struggle is probably one of the most important balancing tools that a person can have. For me, I struggle mentally and I struggle physically. I struggle mentally in that we were talking about on the podcast we did previously, you and I on my podcast said, I'm not a fan of my work. I'm not a fan of what I do. I'm my harshest critic. Anytime anybody says something bad about me, I'm like, listen. I said way worse about myself. I don't like anything I do. I'm ruthlessly introspective and I will continue to be that way because that's the only way you could be good as a comedian. There's no other way. You can't just think you're awesome and just go out there. You have to be picking apart everything you do, but there's a balance to that too because you have to have enough confidence to go out there and perform. You can't think, oh my God, I suck. I know what I'm doing, but I know what I'm doing because I put in all that work. One of the reasons why I put in all that work is I don't like the end result most of the time, so I need to work at it all the time. Then there's physical struggle, which I think balances everything out. Without physical struggle, I always make the analogy that the body is in a lot of ways like a battery where if you have extra charge, it leaks out of the top and it becomes unmanageable and messy. That's how my psyche is. If I have too much energy, if I'm not exerting myself in a violent way, like an explosive way, like wearing myself out, I just don't like the way the world is. I don't like the way I interface with the world. I'm too tense. I'm too quick to be upset about things. But when I work out hard and I put in a brutal training session, everything's fine. Well, the first time I talked to you on JRE, you were doing Sober October and there's something in your eyes. I think you've talked about that you exercise the demons out essentially, so you exercise to get whatever the parts of you that you don't like out. There's a darkness in you there, the competitiveness and the focus of that person. That was a scary time in a lot of ways, that Sober October thing. My friends, we were all talking shit because we're competing against each other in these fitness challenges. You got a certain amount of points for each minute that you went at 80% of your max heart rate. One day I got 1,100 points. I did seven hours on an elliptical machine watching the bathhouse scene from John Wick where he murders all those people in the bathhouse. I watched it probably 50 times in a row. I went crazy. I went crazy, but I went crazy in a weird way where it brought me back to my fighting days. It was like that person came out again. I was like, well, I didn't even know he was in there. It's like an assassin, like a killer. I felt like a different person. Is it echoes of what Mike Tyson talked about essentially? But no orgasm. No emotions. All the crazy shit that he was saying. Is there a violent person in there? Oh yeah. There's a lot of violence in me for sure. I don't know if it's genetic or learned or it's because during my formative years from the time I was 15 until I was 22, all I did was fight. That was all I did. That was all I did. All I did was train and compete. That was all I did. That was my whole life. Is it connected to... Your mom and dad broke up early on. Is it connected to the dad at all? I'm sure it's connected to him also because he was violent and it made me feel very scared to be around him. But I also think it's connected in who he was as a human is transferred into my DNA. I think there's a certain amount of... I mean, to be prejudiced against myself, I look like a violent person. If I didn't know me, even the way I'm built, not even just the working out part, just the size of my hands and there's the width of my shoulders. There's most likely a lot of violence in my history, in my past, in my ancestry. I think we minimize that with people. So much of your behavior... When I see my daughter, I have one daughter that's obsessive in terms of she wants to get really good at things and she'll practice things all day long and it's 100% my personality. She's me in female form, but without the anger as much and without the fear. She has a loving household and everything like that, but she has this intense obsession with doing things and doing things really well and getting better. What's the point? We have to tell her, stop doing handsprings in the house. Stop, stop. Come on, just sit down, have dinner. One more, one more. She's just like, she's psycho. I think there's a lot of behavior and personality and a lot of these things are passed down through genetics. We don't really know. We don't know how much of who you are genetically is learned behavior, nature or nurture. We don't know if it's learned behavior or whether or not it's something that's intrinsically a part of you because of who your parents were. I think there's certainly some genetic violence in me. And then you channeled it. Yeah, I channeled it. So you figured out it's basically your life is a productive exploration of how to channel that. Yes. How to figure out how to get that monkey to sit down and calm down. There's another person in there. There's a calm, rational, kind, friendly person who just wants to laugh and have fun. And then there's that dude who comes out when I did Sober October. That guy's scary. I don't like that guy. That guy just wants to get up in the morning and go. When I was competing, it was necessary, but it makes me remember. I didn't really remember what I used to be like until that. When I'm working out seven hours a day and just so obsessed and all I was thinking about was winning. That's all I was thinking about. If they were working out five hours a day, I wanted them to know that I was going to work out an extra three hours and I was going to get up early and I was going to text them all, hey, pussies, I'm up already. Take pictures, send selfies. I was like, you're going to die. I kept telling them, you're all going to die. You try to keep up with me, you're going to die. You weren't fully joking. No, I wasn't joking at all. That's what was fucked up about it. That's the scary thing when I interacted with Goggins and what I saw in you during that time is this guy, this is why I've been avoiding David Goggins recently. He wants to meet, he wants to talk on this podcast, but he also wants to run an ultra marathon with me. I felt like this is a person, if I spend any time in this realm, if I spend any time with the Joe Rogan of that sober October, I might have to die to get out. There's this kind of- Yeah, there's a competitive aspect that's super unhealthy. You saw the video that we watched earlier today of Goggins draining his knee. That would stop me from running ever again because I would think in my head, okay, I'm going to ruin my cartilage. I'm going to need a knee replacement. I would start thinking, I would go down that line, but he is perpetually in this push it mindset. What he calls the dog in him. That dog is in him all day long and he feeds that dog. That's who he is. That's one of the reasons why he's so inspirational and he's fuel for millions and millions of people. I mean, he really is. He motivates people in a way that is so powerful, but it can be very destructive. I know now, especially after the sober October thing, that that thing's still in me. I didn't know, so I really haven't done anything physically competitive, except one time I was supposed to fight Wesley Snipes. It came out then too. That came out too. That got creepy too, but luckily that never happened. That was many months of training, like training twice a day, every day. Kickboxing in the morning, jujitsu at night. I was just going and going and going and going and I was just thinking just all day long. It fucks with all the other aspects of your life. It fucks with your friendships, it fucks with my comedy, it fucks with everything. That mindset is not a mindset of an artist. It's a mindset of a conqueror. The conqueror, yeah, the destroyer. That's why it's so interesting to see Mike Tyson make the switch. It's clear that whatever that is, however that fight goes, there's a switch. He stepped into a different dimension. Roy Jones Jr. is coming on my podcast soon and Roy's going to be on before the fight. I'm so curious to see how it goes down, but genuinely concerned because Mike Tyson is a heavyweight and Roy Jones at his best was 168 pounds. I don't know if Roy has that room in his house, mental house of where Mike Tyson goes. I don't know. I don't know if he has that room. Mike doesn't have a room. He's got an empire in there. He opens up the door. With tigers. He opens up the door. There's a whole empire in his head and he's in that firmly. When he got out of the weed and started training again, you could see it in him. By the way, physically, in person, he looks spectacular. He looks like a fucking Adonis. He looks ready to go. It's crazy. Yeah, watching videos of him. What about you? Have you ever considered competing in Jiu Jitsu? No, for that very reason. I don't want to get obsessed. That's my number one concern. I had to quit video games when we were playing video games at the studio. I had to quit because I was playing five hours a day out of nowhere. All of a sudden, I was playing five hours a day. I was coming home late for dinner. I was ending podcasts early and jumping on the video games and playing. I get obsessed with things and I have to recognize what that is and these competitive things, competitive, especially really exciting competitive things like video games. They're very dangerous for me. The ultimate competitive video game is Jiu Jitsu. If I was young, I most certainly would have done it. If I didn't have a very clear career path, it was something that I enjoyed. My concern would be that I would become a professional Jiu Jitsu fighter when I was young and then I would not have the energy to do standup and do all the other things that I wound up doing as a career. When I was 21, I quit my job teaching. I was teaching at Boston University. I was teaching Taekwondo there. I also had my own school in Revere. I knew I couldn't do it right and also be doing standup comedy. I knew I couldn't do both of those things. There was no way. You have to be cognizant of that obsessive force within you to make sure. Yes. I have to know how to manage my mental illness. That's a very particular mental illness. I think that mental illness, again, my formative years from 15 till I was 21-ish, 22, those years were spent constantly obsessed with martial arts. That was my whole day. I trained almost every day. The only time I would not train is if I was either injured or if I was exhausted, if I needed a day off, but I was obsessed. That part of my personality that I haven't nurtured is always going to be there under the surface. When it gets reignited by something, it's very weird. It's a weird feeling. It can get reignited with a video game. It can get reignited with anything, that obsessive, whatever it is, that competitive demon. Yes. The way you talk about guitar, I know you would fall in love with playing guitar, but I think you're very wise to not touch that thing. That's why I want golf. I have friends who want to golf. I'm like, I don't fucking want that thing. A lot of people ask me, what's Joe Rogan's Jiu Jitsu game like? Knowing that I somehow spend hours rolling with you before and after we drag. You should at some point show a technique or something. That would be fun. Sure. I've got this technique online. What's your game like? I saw you doing I think head and arm, something online. Yeah. I fucked my neck up doing head and arm chokes. I did them so much that because you use your neck so much with head and arms chokes, I developed a real kink in my neck and it turned out I had a bulging disc. So you're doing on that just one side? Well, no, I could do it on the left side, but I definitely am better on the right side. The right side was my best side. If you were to compete, let's say, what's your A game? Where would you go from standing up? How would you go to submission? Would you pull guard? Would you take down? How would you pass guard? I don't have good takedowns. I was not a good wrestler. I would most likely either pull guard or I would pull half guard. Do you have a good guard? Yes. Are you comfortable being on your butt and your back? Yes. I'm very flexible. My rubber guard is pretty good. You go to rubber guard. Yeah. I have good arm bars and good triangles off my back. I also have a very good half guard, but my top game is my best. I have a very strong top game. You have a half guard. Do you have a preference of what kind of guard and how to pass that guard? Is there a specific game plan? Double underhooks from half guard is the game plan for me. If I can get double underhooks from half guard, I could sweep a lot of people. Underhooks of what? Sorry, the arms or the legs? Half guard, lockdown. Lockdown, got it. Half guard, go into lockdown, double underhooks. Got it. Clinch to the body, suck the body. Just pressure. Yeah, massive pressure. Then inch my way into a position we call the dog fight. Inch my way to a position where I could get the person on their back. Yeah, because you did show me I still disagree with you about the tie thing. The tie? That you can choke somebody with the tie. So wrong. So wrong. Well, it's not wrong with you. With you, it's wrong because you- No, I think there's a system. I have this thing down here. We're going to figure it out. Okay. Let's have a little Velcro on the back. See, you're just not the- You're not the- you're the exec, that's cheating. Yeah, I did feel when you showed me, I think you showed me the rubber guard because it's still a guard. That's a little bit foreign to me. I just felt that you can immediately feel, not with the rubber guard, but the way you move your body is you're like a Shange type of guy who knows how to control another human being. So some people are a little bit more, I would say, agile and playful and kind of- Loose. Loose and they work on transition, transition, transition. You're a control guy. You know how to control position and advance position. Donnie Heard is the same way. He's all about control. My game is smush. That's my game. Smush you. Grab ahold of you. Once I have you, why would I let you go? My thought is why would I let you go? I just want to incrementally move to a better position until I can strangle you. But I'm much more into strangling people than anything else. Which is a great MMA approach for Jiu-Jitsu. Well, too many people don't tap when you get their arms. And I'm not opposed to arm bars. I love arm bars, but everybody goes to sleep. And quit from pressure too. I mean, quit mentally. There's nothing like that. You can't breathe. If you've got a guy who's like a really good top game guy and he mounts you, and I'm a big fan of mounting with my legs crossed, like a guard, like a top guard. And so I can squeeze with both legs. Smush. And I'm just looking for people to make mistakes and slowly incrementally bettering my position until I can get something locked up. I love Jiu-Jitsu though, man. I just wish it didn't injure you. Jiu-Jitsu is like, if your joints were more durable, they could figure out a way to make joints more durable. God, I could do Jiu-Jitsu forever. It's so much fun. I actually, I talked to this roboticist, Russ Tedrick. He builds, he's one of the world-class people that builds humanoid robots. You're interested in Boston Dynamics. He's one of the key people in that kind of robotics. So I asked him the stupidest question of like, how far are we from having a robot be a UFC champion? And yeah, it's actually a really, really tough problem. It's the same thing that makes somebody like Danielle Cormier, like on the wrestling side special, because you have to understand the movement of the human body in ways that's so difficult to teach. It's so subtle. The timing, the pressure points, the leverage, all those kinds of things. That's just for the clinch situation. And then the movement for the striking is very difficult. As long as you're not allowed as a robot to like use your natural abilities of having a lot more power. Right. A lot more power and then more durable. Right. And the human body, like especially meniscus, like you see the heel hook game, like everybody's involved in leg locks and heel hooks. Like all those guys wind up with torched knees. Everyone's got torched knees. Everyone's knees are torn apart and you don't grow new meniscus. That's like one of those joints where, man, when it goes, those guys are 28 years old of blown out knees. Let me ask the ridiculous question. What do you think? We're talking about cops. What do you think is the best martial arts self-defense? For sure, jiu-jitsu. Yeah, for sure. Wrestling? I think grappling, I should say. Judo as well, especially in a cold climate. If you get someone who's got like a heavy winter jacket on, my God, like Judo is an incredible martial art. Plus concrete. That's the worst place to be with a heavy winter jacket with a Judo specialist and you're standing up with them. Oh my God. But I think grappling, because in most self-defense situations, it usually winds up with grappling. You're definitely better off though, knowing some striking because there's nothing more terrifying than when you go to take someone down, they actually have takedown skills, but they can fight. And so they have takedown defense and they know how to fight and then you don't know how to stand up. The worst thing in the world is seeing someone reaching who doesn't know how to do striking and someone cracks you. What about all that Krav Maga talk, which is like the whole line of argument that says that Jiu-Jitsu and wrestling and all of these sports, they fundamentally take you away from the nature of violence. So they're just teaching you how to play versus the reality of violence that is involved in like a self-defense situation that is a totally different set of skills would be needed. In general, the people that say that Jiu-Jitsu or other martial arts, it's more of a sport and they don't really understand violence. In general, the people that say that suck. Anybody who thinks like someone's like, hey man, I'll just bite you. I'm like, are you going to bite me? Okay. Do you think I'm going to bite you too? What do you think of that? What if I punch you in your fucking face? You think you're still going to bite me when you can't even see? You barely even know you're alive and I choke you unconscious. If someone's really good at Jiu-Jitsu, good luck stabbing them with your keys. You don't have a chance. You don't have a chance. If someone's much better, they trip you and get you on your back and then they fucking elbow you in your face and get a head and arm choke on you. All that crap magashas out the window, son. You're way better off learning what works on trained killers. This whole idea that you're going to poke someone in the eye and then you're going to kick them in the nuts. You're going through these drills that yeah, it's good to know what to do if you run into someone who doesn't know how to fight. It's way better to know what to do to someone who knows how to fight. That's the best thing. Learn how to fight against people who know how to fight. All that practice self-defense and they're going to come at you with a knife. You're going to grab the wrist and do that. It's good to know self-defense, but it's much more important to understand martial arts comprehensively. When you understand martial arts comprehensively, there's no Krav Maga guys, but it would be shocking if a Krav Maga guy and a mixed martial arts guy had a fight and the mixed martial arts guy who's a trained killer all around didn't fuck that guy up. That's what I would expect would happen. I would not think that some guy who has a little bit of this and a little bit of that and prepares for the streets is going to be able to handle a person who trains with killers on a day-to-day basis, who rolls with Jiu-Jitsu black belts, who trains with Muay Thai champions. The best martial arts are the martial arts that work on martial artists, not the martial arts that work on untrained people. What about, we're in Texas now, what about guns? Well, that's the best martial art. No, but would you, in this crazy time, should people carry guns? It's not a bad idea to have a gun because if you need a gun, you have a gun. If you don't need a gun, if you're a person with self-control, you're not going to use it. You're not going to just randomly use it, but you have something to protect you. This is the whole idea of the Second Amendment. The whole idea of the Second Amendment gets distorted by mass shootings or by terrible people who murder people and do terrible things. All those things are real, but they don't take away from the fundamental efficacy of having a firearm and defending your family or defending your life. There are real live situations where people have had firearms and it's protected them or their loved ones or they've stopped shooters. There's many of these stories, but people don't like those stories because then it tends to lead to this gun culture argument, this pro-gun culture argument that people find very uncomfortable. Human beings are messy. We're messy in so many different ways. We're messy emotionally. We're messy physically, but we're also messy in what's good or bad. We want things to be binary. We want things to be right or wrong, one or zero, and they're not. But there is crime in the world. There is violence in the world, and you're better off knowing how to fight and you're better off knowing how to defend yourself and you're better off having a gun. I generally think that guns, I do like the idea that guns, Second Amendment helps protect the First Amendment. There's a sense that puts me at ease knowing that so many people in this country have guns that, I mean, Alex Jones, I just listened to one episode of Infowars for the first time. Boy, he reminds me like when I drank some tequila, I felt like I'm going to some dark places today. That's how I feel like listening to him. But he talks about that he worries about martial law. So basically government overreach by, which happened throughout history. There's something to worry about there, but it puts me at ease knowing that so much of the population has guns that people, government would think twice before instituting martial law in cities. But I actually was asking almost on the individual level. I maybe shouldn't say this, but I don't yet own a gun. And I felt that if I carry a gun, statistically, just for me as a human, knowing my psychology, I feel like I'm more likely to die. Like, I feel like I would put myself in situations that I shouldn't. The way I will see the world will change. Really? Because my natural feeling is like when somebody, when I was in Philly and I knew late at night in West Philly, when some guy looks at you, you can immediately calculate that this is a dangerous human being. It starts with a monkey look at first, like I'm a bigger monkey than you. And that's where I found like, for example, I'll do the beta thing of just looking down and turning away and just getting out of trouble, like very politely. And basically that kind of approach, because if you have a, in terms of getting out of serious violence situations, like serious, something where you could die versus if I had a gun, I feel like I would want to be, that there would be that cowboy monkey thing where I would want to put myself in situations where I'm a little bit of a savior, even of myself and almost create danger, which can no longer, like the escalation of which I can no longer control. Well, you're talking about taking a gun somewhere versus having a gun in your home. Yes, yes. I mean, carry on me. That's a different situation and much harder to get a warrant or a license for that. Control concealed carry licenses, especially in Massachusetts. They don't come easy. Oh, Massachusetts. Yeah, that's a whole nother thing. Yeah. You're saying gun in the home. Yeah, gun in the home. Having a gun, knowing how to use a gun. I know how to use a gun. I've trained many hours learning how to shoot a gun at tactical places. There's a bunch of videos of me doing it on Instagram. I practice and I think it's good to understand how to be accurate. So I've been a fan of your podcast for a long time. You don't often talk about it because you're always kind of looking forward, but if you look at the old studio that you just left, is there some epic memories that stand out to you that you almost look back, I can't believe this happened? Oh yeah. Almost too many of them to count. Is there something that pops into mind now? All of them. Elon Musk blowing that flame thrower in the middle of the hallway. I got a video of that. Have you ever seen the video of it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think you posted on Instagram. I think I did too. Yeah, he's a madman. Having Bernie Sanders in there, just all the fun fight companions we did and all the crazy podcasts with Joey Diaz and Duncan Trussell. There were so many. There were so many moments. This is a weird art form and it almost seems like, it sounds silly, but it almost seems like something that chose me rather than I chose it. I think of that all the time in some strange way. It's like I'm showing up as an antenna and I just plug in and twist on and then I take in the thing and I put it together and I'm like a passenger of this weird ride. Yeah, you've talked about this before. I really like this idea that human beings are just carriers of these ideas. Ideas are the ones who are breeding. In a sense, the idea found you as a useful brain to use to spread itself through the podcasting medium. When I think about your podcast, I think about Joey Diaz. I think about all those comedians you've had. I think you've had Joey on maybe close to 50 times, 60, some crazy number. He is over the top offensive. Just that's who he is to the core. Is there some sense where you wondered whether it's right to have the Spotify episode number one with Duncan Trussell for five hours? No. I wanted to do it that way. That's why we wore NASA suits and we got high as fuck. That's the whole idea behind it. Can you introspect that a little bit? What is that? Because that's rare. It's such a rare thing to do because you're not supposed to talk to Duncan Trussell with a huge platform that you have five hours. Why not? Because Donald Trump apparently watches your podcast. That's the idea that there's these... That's what I think about these CEOs write to me that they listen to the podcast that I do. I have somebody like a David Fravor and I was nervous about it. I was nervous to have a conversation. For me, David Fravor is a Duncan Trussell, which is like... Just because of his experiences with UFOs. Yeah. Even just the way he sees the world because he is open. I don't know if he's always like this, but he opened himself to the possibility of unconventional ideas. Most people in the scientific community say, well, I don't really want to believe anything that doesn't have a lot of hard evidence. That was to me like a step. As the thing somehow becomes more popular, there becomes this fear of like, well, should I talk to this person or not? You're an inspiration in saying, do whatever the hell you want. You have to. First of all, I have what you call fuck you money. If you have fuck you money, you don't say fuck you. What's the point of having the fuck you money? You're wasting it. You're wasting the position. Someone said to me, why do you like sports cars so much? How many cars do you have? A bunch of cars. Because if I was a kid and I said, hey, if I was that crazy rich famous guy, I don't want to have a bunch of cool fucking cars. So I would do that because not everybody gets to do that. If you're the person that gets to do that, you're kind of supposed to do it. If you want to, if that really does speak to you. I've talked to you about this before, muscle cars, specifically ones from the 1960s and the early 70s, they speak to me in some weird way, man. I could just stare at them. I have a 65 Corvette. I walk around it sometimes at night when no one's around. I just stare at it. What's your favorite muscle car? What's your most badass late 60s, the perfect car? Probably that car, probably that 65 Corvette. 65 Corvette. I walk around it when no one's around. I think I've driven the 69 Corvette. Is there a particular year that just- 65 is generation two, 69 is generation three, 69 it's even more curvy. They're both awesome, just awesome in different ways. But I just love muscle cars for whatever reason. But the point is I like what I like and if I can do what I want to do, I should do what I want to do. And it's not hurting anybody. And the thing is I would do the Duncan podcast if no one was listening. If we were just starting to do a podcast together and no one cared and it got like 2000 views, which we did for years, I would do it with Duncan and we would get high and we'd talk crazy shit about aliens and spaceships and maybe dude, maybe ideas are living life forms and they're inside your head and that's how things get made. Man. Yeah, man. I just kind of morphed me and him together in that because the life form idea, life form idea is mine that I really think about a lot. I think about it on a technical side, by the way. When I heard you say that, because I've been thinking, I was like, whoa, that's interesting. They might be alive because I don't know what the fuck they are, but when someone has an idea for whatever, an invention, a toaster, and then they think about this, all it needs is like these heating elements and a spring and then it pops when it's done. So I have a timer and then they build this thing. Now all of a sudden it's alive. It's like you manifested it in a physical form. Toaster is not the best example, but a car, an airplane, you're thinking about a thing, like an idea comes into your head and you can say, oh, well, it's just creativity. It's a part of being a person. That's how we invented tools and how we became better hunters. All those things are true. I'm not saying that there's some magic to what I'm saying, but there's also a possibility that we're simplifying something by saying that it's just creativity, that it's just a natural human inclination to invent things. Why? Is it possible that ideas like creativity, like we are the only animal other than there's a few species that create things like bees, make beehives, but they're very uniform. You know, some animals use tools, you know, like chimps will use like sticks to get termites and things like that. But there's something about what we do that it makes you wonder because we look at this skit, just look at this room that we're in, look at all these electronics, look at all this crazy shit that human beings have invented and then built upon others' inventions and proved and innovated. These all came out of ideas. Like the idea, it germinates in someone's head, it bounces around, they write it down, they share it with others, the other people who have similar ideas or ideas that are complementary, they work together and they change the world. And the new thing in that is the idea is not the people. It's like we think we found the ideas, but it's more like the ideas found us. Find you, yeah. They're literally in the air. They come to you. I always felt like that with bits. Like when I come up with a bit, that's why I'm always telling people about the Steven Pressfield book, The War of Art, because he talks about respecting the muse and the idea that your ideas come when you sit down and you do the work or you sit down like a professional and you talk to the muse. Like, come tell me what to do. Like if the muse was a real thing, as if a muse is like some mystical creature that comes and delivers you ideas. Even if that's not real, that's how it works. It does work like that. If you do treat it like it's a muse and you treat it with the respect and you treat it like a professional, the ideas do come to you. I never thought about what he's doing is just sitting there waiting for the idea that's trying to breed to find him. Yeah. That's a trippy thing. If you show up and put in the time and focus your energy on that, the ideas, they will arrive. And that's the same with writing comedy. Like there's been many, many times where I'll come home from the comedy store and I just sit down and I start writing and I just, I've got nothing. There's nothing there. I'm just writing. It's all bullshit. Nothing's good. It's just like, hmm. And then all of a sudden, bam, there's the idea. And then all of a sudden I can't stop. And then a couple of hours later and I'm like, whoa. And then the next night I'm on stage and I'm like, how about that? Boom! It gets this big laugh. I'm like, holy shit. And I know that came out of the discipline to sit down and call the muse. I mean, the cool thing is the ideas have found you to like, oh, I'm going to use this dude. Like he seems to have a podcast that's popular. I'm going to breathe inside his brain and spread it to others. It's the same as- Or an inventor. I'm going to use this guy who's like desperately seeking some sort of a product to bring to market. Some guy who wants to invent things is thinking about inventing things all the time. These ideas, they weasel their way into your head. And it seems to me also that the frequency that your mind operates under has to be correct. Because one of the things about creativity seems to be if you think about yourself a lot, if you're really into yourself or your image or you're selfish, those ideas, they don't find you. Yeah, that's funny. The ideas- It stifles the creative. Yeah, yeah. Yes. It's the opportunity that the idea has for defining. Yes, which is one of the reasons why joke thieves, people that steal jokes are terrible writers. There's never like really good writers who are also joke thieves. It's just joke thieves and then when they have to write on their own, if they get exposed, they become terrible comedians. They're a shadow of what they were when they were stealing other people's ideas. Because the thing that would make you steal a person's idea is that ego part, like the wanting to claim it for yourself, the wanting to be the man or the woman. I want to be the person who gets out there and says it and everybody's going to love me for it. You can't think like that and be creative. It requires a humility and it requires a detachment from self in order to create. When I'm writing, I'm blank. I'm just staring. The part of my mind that's active is not like me. It's like this weird core function part where I'm not aware of my personality. I'm not aware of anything. I'm just trying to put it together in a way that I know works. Just being there, being present. That's the press field. I'm a big believer just sitting there, even staring at a blank page, just putting in the time. Yeah. Sometimes it's not that way. Sometimes it's an inspiration. Sometimes I'll be sitting there at dinner and I'll be like, I got an idea. My wife's really cool about that. I'm like, I have an idea and I have to just run out of the room real quick and I write it down on my phone and then I can come back. Because those are like little gifts that you get sometimes from the universe out of nowhere. Some people rely only on those gifts. I've talked to comics about it. They're like, I can't come up with my best ideas when I don't write. I'm like, no, I do too. I come up with great ideas when I don't write, but I also write. You can do both of those things. They're not mutually exclusive. You mentioned fuck you money. I feel like I have fuck you money now. A year ago I was at zero. I have fuck you money now because probably my standard is my, I don't need much in this world, but because also probably because of you, but it's 300 to 400,000 people listen to every episode I do. That's a lot. That is weird. That's a successful television show on cable. Yeah, it's crazy. It's all you. That's hilarious. That's amazing. But at this point that also resulted in a few money in a sense that I don't, I don't need anything else in this world. By way of asking, I've looked up, you've inspired me for a long time. Do you have advice? You've done this on the podcast side of life. Do you have advice for somebody like, for me and somebody like me going on this journey? Eric Weinstein is going on this journey. Is there advice, both small and big that you have for somebody like me? The advice is to keep doing what feels right to you and do what you're doing. Obviously, it's resonating with people if you're getting that big of an audience. I've listened to your podcast. You're very good at it. Just keep doing it the way you're doing it. Don't let anybody else get involved. What about, you've connected. I think you met Jamie at the Comedy Store. I met him at the Ice House. At the Ice House? Ice House. I think I met him at the Comedy Store, but then we talked at the Ice House. You'd have to ask him. Did you think deeply about, because you basically have nobody on your team. It almost feels like a marriage. Were you selective about somebody to bring into your little circle? Well, Jamie's exceptional. He is. He's a special. I don't remember how he was in the early days, maybe you could say. He's definitely better at it, but right away, he's exceptional. He's got very little ego. He's not a guy who needs a lot of attention. He's not a guy who overestimates anything in terms of negative or positive. His interpretation of whether it's good things that happened to the show or bad things that happened to the show, he just takes it all flat. He's chill. He's just cool as fuck, and he's so smart, and he's so good as an audio engineer and as a podcast producer. He's the best. He's basically one of the only people on this whole team. How do you find, when you let people in... I'm sure other people wanted to get involved. Why don't you have a co-host? You basically kind of... Well, here's the problem with a co-host. When you and I are talking, when we're talking, I'm tuned in to you, and I'm waiting to hear what you're saying, and I'm listening, and I'm interpreting it, and then I'm calculating whether or not I have anything to say, whether to let you keep talking, whether I maybe have a question that lets you expand further, or whether I have a disagreement. There's a dance that's going on. Now, when there's another person there chiming in too, it fucks the dance up. It's like dancing. If you're doing a dance with someone, like if you're slow dancing with someone, and then a third person's there stepping on everybody's feet. Sometimes it's fun. Sometimes having a third person is fun. Comedy podcasts, sometimes it's fun. Debate- Fight companions. Kind of structured. Yeah, debate structures, but even then it gets difficult because people talk over each other. Also, I find that without headphones, it's way easier to talk over each other. You make mistakes. You don't hear it the same way. When you have headphones, I hear what you hear. It's all one sound, and the audience hears exactly, or rather, I hear exactly what the audience hears. Whether it's over here, my voice is louder than yours because you're over there, and if I don't have headphones on, it's not all together. On that point, one of the interesting things about your show is you almost never have done, and you generally don't do remote, sorry, not remote calls, but you don't go to another person's location. I've only done a few, a small handful. And just like, well, this is a Paul Ski. He should do this, but I actually- I would love to. We went back and forth on email. I told him he needs to get his ass back in the studio. He's working on a book. I was a fan of his a long time ago because I became obsessed with toxoplasmosis. I've reached out to him a long time ago before he was willing to do it, but then I caught him in downtown LA. He was there for something else, and I just greedily snatched up an hour of his time. Well, he doesn't get, I think, some of those folks don't get how much magic can happen in this podcast studio, bigger than anything they've ever done in terms of their work. Not talking about reach, but in terms of the discovery of new ideas. There's something magical about conversation. Nobody as brilliant as him, if he gives himself over to the conversation for multiple hours at a time, that's another place where you've been an inspiration. Where I'm getting more and more confidence of telling people, like Elon Musk, that a lot of CEOs are like, well, he has 30 minutes on his schedule. I'm like, no, three hours. And then they're like, so some say no, and then they come back. There's people that started coming back to like, okay, we're starting to get it. They start to get it. And you're a rare beacon of hope in that sense, that there is some value in long form. They think that nobody wants to listen for more than 30 minutes. They think like, I have nothing to say. But the reality is, if you just give yourself over to like the three hours, just let it go. Three hours, four hours, whatever it is. There's so much to discover about what you didn't even know you think. Yeah. Yeah, you have to be confident that you could do it. And in the beginning, I just did it because that's what I wanted to do. And no one was listening. So I've always been a curious person. So I've always been interested in listening to how people think about things and talking to people about their mindset and just expanding on my own ideas, just talking shit. And so we would have these podcasts and they would go on forever. And my friend Ari, I never let him die, never let this die down. Never let him forget this. He was always like, you have to edit your podcast. I'm telling you right now, you're fucking up. I go, why? He's like, because people are not going to listen to it. I go, they don't have to. Yeah. I go, you listen to part of it. He goes, just do it. I'm telling you, trust me. Put it down to like 45 minutes. It's all you need. And I'm like, no, no, I don't think you're right. I like listening to long form things. No one has that kind of time. I go, okay, I'm just going to keep doing it this way. And it sticks to your gut. No, he doesn't. His are like two and a half hours long now. That's great. You won. But you wouldn't like say, I mentioned to you this before, this is going to happen. It's actually made a lot of progress towards it. I'm going to talk to Putin, but you wouldn't travel to Putin if you want to talk to you? Putin is a dangerous character. He's not. Have you ever seen the thing with Jerry Kraft where they stole his Super Bowl ring? Yeah. Yeah. I think that was a little bit of misunderstanding. Oh, really? I think it's a little bit, he just decided he's going to steal that Super Bowl ring. Kind of. I think it was a- Kind of. Can I see your ring? He shows him his ring and then he puts it on and says, I can murder somebody with this ring. And then he walks off with it. It's possible he did it. He's a big believer in displays of power. Yeah. So it's possible he did that, but I think he sees himself as a tool with which to demonstrate that Russia still belongs on the stage of the big players. And so a lot of the actions are selected through that lens. But in terms of a human being, outside of any of the evils that he may or may not have done, he is a really thoughtful, intelligent, fun human being, like the wit and the depth from the JRE perspective is really interesting. I'm like his manager now selling. He's a judo guy. Trying to get Trump. He's really good at judo. I have seen him practice judo. He's a legit black belt. And not only that, he loves it, not just skill-wise, but to talk about it, to reason about it, to think about it, to MMA as well. So it'd be a good conversation. But you wouldn't travel to him. Well that's hold to your principles. So that's the core of the advice. Just hold to whatever- I would rather... Here's the thing. There's not a person that I have to have on the show. And I'm happy to talk to anybody. I'm just as happy to talk to you as I am to talk to Trump, probably more happy to talk to you as I am to talk to Mike Tyson, as I am to talk to Joey Diaz. I like talking to people. I enjoy doing podcasts. I enjoy talking to a variety of people and I schedule them based on... I try not to get too many right-wing people in a row or too many progressive people in a row. I don't want to get repetitive. I try not to get too many fighters in a row. I try to balance it out. Not too many comedians. Comedians are the one group where I can have three, four in a row, five in a row, because that's my tribe. Those are my people. It's easy. We can talk about anything. It's a weird dance. The conversations that you're doing on a podcast, they're a strange dance and you want to not step on your own feet and you want to make sure that you do it in a way, do the podcast in a way that's entertaining for people. Conversations are learning how to talk to people. It's a weird skill. It's a weird skill that took a long time for me to get good at and I didn't know it was a skill until I started doing it. I just thought you're just talking. I was just, I know how to talk. We'll just talk to people. Then along the way, I realized, oh... Then when you talk to people that are bad at it, you realize that it's a skill. Particularly one of the things about my people, about comedians, is a lot of them tend to want to talk but don't want to listen. They're waiting for you to stop talking so they can talk but they're not necessarily thinking about what you're saying. They're just waiting for their opportunity or they talk over you. I try real hard not to do that and sometimes I fail but when I'm at my best, I'm dancing. Yeah, ultimately the skill of conversation is just really listening. Listening and thinking. Listening and thinking and being genuinely curious and really having a take on what they're saying and maybe a follow-up question or maybe... It's got to be real. It's got to be authentic. When it is authentic and it's real, it resonates with people. They're listening and they go, oh, I'm locked in with the way you're thinking. You two guys are in a conversation and I'm locked in. When she talks and you listen, I'm listening too. When he says something to her or when she says something to him, there's a thing that happens during conversations where you're there. You're listening to... With me, when I listen to a good podcast, I feel like I'm in the room. I feel like I'm in the room and I'm like the friend that got to sit down and listen. I go, yeah, it's a great conversation. I love conversations. I love listening to them and I love putting them together. The fact that this podcast has gotten so fucking big, it's stunning to me. It blows me away. I never anticipated it. Never thought for a second that that stupid thing that I used to do in my couch, in my office was the biggest thing I've ever done in my life by far. People used to make fun of it. There's a Comedy Store documentary that's coming out and one of the parts of the documentary is my friend Tom Segura, when he first started doing my podcast, he would be leaving and he would talk to Red Band. He's like, what the fuck is he doing? Why is he doing this? Who's listening? He's like, oh, some people like it. It's like fucking nonsense, waste of time. In the documentary, it shows 2,000 views, one of the early Ustream episodes. It's hilarious. They don't just like it. They form a friendship with you. Even me, when people come up to me, the love in their eyes is kind of beautiful. It's weird, right? Yeah. You're part of their life. Yeah. I don't know, it's also heartbreaking because you realize you'll never really get to know them back because they clearly are friends with you. Yes. Yeah. It's sad to see a person who's clearly brilliant and interesting and is friends with you, but you don't get a chance to return that love. My kids, it took them a while to figure out what's going on, but people would come up to me and they would say something like, hey man, I fucking love you. Thanks man. All right. Hey brother, nice to meet you. My daughter was like six. She'd be like, do you know him? I'm like, no, I don't know him. She's like, how does he know you? It's very weird conversation I used to have with young kids when I'd explain, I'd do this thing called the podcast and millions of people listen. Now one of my daughters is 12 and one of her friends is 13 and he's a boy and he goes to school with her and he's obsessed with me. She's weirded out and she says to him, I don't even think you like me. I think you're just into my dad, you fucking weirdo. She's going to have that conversation in a few stages in her life. That hard conversation with a boyfriend. Yeah, probably. Yeah. That's the thing about men too. This podcast is uniquely masculine. I'm a man and I'm also a man that doesn't have to go through some sort of a corporate filter. I'm not going through executive producers who tell me don't have this guest on, don't talk about that. We looked at focus groups and they don't seem to like when you do this. There's none of that. I just do it. I have a whole podcast where I just talk about cars and people are like, I don't want to hear you talk about cars. Well, good. Congratulations. You found what you like. Here's good news. There's 1500 other ones. Go listen to the other episodes where I don't talk about cars. You don't have to listen. It's not like your brand, you just are who you are and that's what you do. It's authentically what I'm interested in. All the podcasts, whether I'm talking to David Fravor about his experience with UFOs, whether I'm talking to David Sinclair about life extension, whether I'm talking to you about artificial intelligence or what, it's because I want to talk to these people and that resonates. I like when people are into shit. I've talked about this before, things that I have no interest in making furniture, but I like this PBS show where this guy makes furniture by hand. I love watching it. Craftsman. Because he's so into it. He's sanding this and polishing that. I'm not going to do that. I don't give a fuck about furniture. Furniture for me is function, like this desk. Function works, but I love when people are into it. I'm happy that someone can make it and they do a great job, but I'm not interested in the task or even the finished product as much as I'm interested in someone's passion for something. The passion that they've put into this, that shines through. Last question. I sometimes ask this just for, what is it, to challenge, to make people roll their eyes, to make legitimate scientists roll their eyes. I ask, what is the meaning of life, according to Joe Rogan? I do not think there is a meaning. I think there's many, many meanings of life. I think there's a way to navigate life that's enjoyable. I think it requires many things. It requires, first of all, it requires love. You have to have loved ones, you have to have family, you have to have friends, you have to have people that care about you, and you have to care about them. I think that is primary. Then it also requires interests. There has to be things that stimulate you. Now, it could be just a subsistence lifestyle. There's many people that believe and practice this lifestyle of just living off the land and hunting and fishing and living in the woods, and they seem incredibly happy. There's something to be said for that. That is an interest. There's something, and there's a direct connection between their actions and their sustenance. They get their food that way. They're connected to nature, and it's very satisfying for them. If you don't have that, I think you need something that is interesting to you, something that you're passionate about. There's far too many people that get sucked into living a life where you're just doing a job, you're just showing up and putting in your time and then going home, but you don't have a passion for what you're doing. I think that's a recipe for a boring and very unfulfilling life. You mentioned love, if we could just backtrack. We talked about the demons and the violence in there somewhere. What's the role of love in your own life? It's very important, man. It's one of the reasons why I'm so interested in helping people. I'm very interested in people feeling good. I like them to feel good. I want to help them. I like doing things that make them feel like, oh, you care about me. Yeah, I care about you. I really do. I want people to feel good. I want my family to feel good. I want my friends to feel good. I want guests to feel good about the podcast experience. I'm a big believer in as much as I can to spread positive energy and joy and happiness and relay all the good advice that I've ever gotten, all the things that I've learned. If they can benefit people, then I find that those things benefit people and actually improve the quality of their life or improve their success or improve their relationships. I'm very happy to do that. That means a lot to me. The way we interact with each other is so important. It's one of the reasons why someone gets canceled or you get publicly shamed. It's so devastating because there's all these people that negative, all this negative energy coming your way and you feel it. As much as I like to pretend that you're immune to that kind of stuff and some people do like to pretend that, you feel it. There's a tangible force when people are upset at you. That's the same with loved ones or family or anytime someone's upset at you, whether it's a giant group of people or there's a small amount of people. That has an impact on you and your psyche and your physical being. The more you can spread love and the more love comes back to you, you also create this butterfly effect where other people start recognizing like, oh, when he's nice to me, I feel better and then I'm going to be nicer to people. When I'm nicer to people, they feel better and I feel better and it spreads outward. That's one thing that I've done through this podcast, I think, is I've imparted my personal philosophy in kindness and generosity to other people. To correct you, you didn't do it. The ideas that are breeding themselves through your brain have figured out- Yes, the ideas that are alive in the air have made their way into my head. Love is a more efficient mechanism of spreading ideas they figured out. Yes. Probably, man. Probably. As far as the meaning of life, without that, you have nothing. One of the biggest failures in life is to be extremely successful financially, but everybody hates you. Everybody hates you and you're just miserable and alone and angry and depressed and sad. When you hear about rich, famous people that commit suicide, wow, you missed the mark. You got some parts right, but you put too many eggs in one basket. You put too many eggs in the financial basket or the success basket or the accomplishment basket and not enough in the friendship and love basket. There's a balance to that. When I talked about the violence and all that stuff, that to me is me understanding recognizing that is me trying to achieve that balance. It's to go kill those demons so that this boat is level because if it's not, then the boat is like this and then everything's all fucked up and every time we hit a wave, things fall apart. Pass that boat out, figure it out, know who you are. Some people don't have that problem at all. Some people, they could just go for walks and they're cool as a cucumber. I need more. I need kettlebells. I need a heavy bag. I need the Echo bike, the air assault bike. I need some hardcore shit and if I don't get that, I don't feel good. I figured that out too and that makes me a nicer person and that makes my interactions nicer. It changes the quality of my friendships and my relationships with people. I think we mentioned Neuralink. I can certainly guarantee that this is one of the memories I'll be replaying 20, 30 years from now once we get the feature ready. Joe, it's a huge honor to talk to you. It's an honor to talk to you too, man. I'm glad you came down here for this. The first week of me doing this here and it's very cool to have you always. I hope you make Texas cool again and do your podcast for another 10, 11, whatever, however many years you're still on this earth. All right. Thank you, brother. Appreciate you, man. Thanks for listening to this conversation with Joe Rogan and thank you to our sponsors, Neuro, 8 Sleep, and Dollar Shave Club. Check them out in the description to get a discount and to support this podcast. If you enjoy this thing, subscribe on YouTube, review it with five stars on Apple Podcast, follow on Spotify, support on Patreon, or connect with me on Twitter at Lex Friedman. And now let me leave you with some words of wisdom from Joe Rogan. The universe rewards, calculated risk, and passion. Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.
 The following is a conversation with Joe Rogan
 that we recorded after my recent appearance
 on his podcast, The Joe Rogan Experience.
 Joe has been an inspiration to me
 and I thank to millions of people
 for just being somebody who puts love out there in the world
 and being genuinely curious about wild ideas
 from chimps and psychedelics to quantum mechanics
 and artificial intelligence.
 Like many of you, I've been a fan of his podcast
 for over a decade and now, somehow, miraculously,
 am humbled to be able to call him a friend.
 If you enjoy this thing, subscribe on YouTube,
 review it with Five Stars on Apple Podcast,
 follow on Spotify, support on Patreon,
 or connect with me on Twitter at Lex Friedman.
 Today's sponsors are Neuro, Eight Sleep, Dollar Shave Club,
 and Olive Garden, home of the Unlimited Breadsticks
 and Brian Red Band's Favorite Restaurant.
 Check out the first three of the sponsors
 in the description to get a discount
 and to support this podcast.
 I usually do full ad reads here,
 I never ads in the middle, but this time,
 I'll just go straight to the conversation
 with a bit of guitar first.
 Shiny Ogre by Putty
 Do you ponder your mortality?
 Are you afraid of death?
 I do think about it sometimes.
 I mean, it does pop into my head sometimes.
 Just the fact that, I mean, I'm 53.
 So if everything goes great, I have less than 50 years left.
 If everything goes great, like no car accidents, no injuries.
 But it could happen today.
 This could be your last day.
 Could be.
 That's kind of a stoic thing to meditate on death.
 There's a bunch of philosophers, Ernest Becker and Sheldon Solomon.
 They believe that death is at the core of everything.
 Wrote this book, Warm at the Core.
 So does that come into play in the way you see the world?
 I think having a sense of urgency is very beneficial and understanding that your time
 is limited can aid you greatly.
 I think knowing that this is a temporary time, that we have finite life spans, I think there's
 great power in that because it motivates you.
 It gets you going.
 I think being an immortal, living forever would be one of the most depressing things,
 particularly if everybody else was dying around you.
 And I think one of the things that makes life so interesting and fascinating is that it
 doesn't last.
 You know, that you really get a brief amount of time here.
 And really by the time you're just starting to kind of figure yourself out who you are
 and how not to screw things up so bad, like time's up.
 The ride's over.
 What about from your daughter's perspective?
 Do you think about the world we're in now and what kind of world you're going to leave
 them?
 I do.
 And do you worry about it?
 I do.
 Yeah, I do.
 I see these protests and riots and chaos and so much anger in the world today.
 And then particularly today, I think because of the pandemic and the fact that so many
 folks are out of work and through no fault of their own and can't make ends meet and
 these people feel so helpless and angry, it's a particularly divisive time.
 It's a particularly turmoil filled time.
 And it just doesn't seem like the world of a year ago even, it feels very chaotic and
 dangerous.
 And it's a small thing in terms of the possibilities of things that could happen to the world,
 like a pandemic, the one we've experienced, it really just doubles the amount of deaths
 on a bad flu year.
 So relatively speaking is a small thing in comparison to super volcano eruptions, asteroid
 impact, a real horrific pandemic or one that really wipes out millions and millions of people.
 It's stunning how fragile civility is.
 It's stunning how fragile our society really is that something like this can come along,
 some unprecedented thing can come along and all of a sudden everybody's out of work for
 six months and then everybody's at each other's throats.
 And then politically everyone's at each other's throats.
 And then with the advent of social media and the images that you can see with the videos
 of police abuse and just racial tensions are an all time high to a point where like if
 you asked me just five or six years ago, like have racial problems in this country largely
 been alleviated, I'd probably say, yeah, it's way better than it's ever been before.
 But now you could argue that it's not.
 Now you could argue it's no, it's way worse in just a small amount of time.
 It's way worse than it's ever been during my lifetime while I'm aware of it.
 Obviously when I was a young boy in the 60s, they were still going through the civil rights
 movement but now it just seems very fever pitched.
 And I think a lot of that is because of the pandemic and is because of all the heightened
 just tension.
 One I liken it to is road rage because people have road rage not just because they're in
 the car and no one can get to them, but also because you're at a heightened state because
 you're driving fast and you know you're driving fast.
 You know you have to make split second movements.
 And so anybody doing something like, what the people go crazy because they're already
 at an eight because they're in the car and they're moving very quickly.
 That's what it feels like with today with the pandemic.
 It feels like everybody is already at an eight.
 So anything that comes along, it's like light it all on fire, you know, burn it down.
 Like that's part of what I think is part of the reason for a lot of the looting and the
 riots and all the chaos.
 It's not just the people out of work, but it's also that everyone feels so tense already
 and everyone feels so helpless.
 And it's like, you know, doing something like that makes people, it just, it gives people
 a whole new motivation for chaos, a whole new motivation for doing destructive things
 that I've never experienced in my life.
 And your better days when you see a positive future, what do you think is the way out of
 this chaos of 2020?
 Like if you visualize a 2025, that's a better world than today.
 How do we get there and what does that look like?
 It's a good question.
 I can honestly say I don't know.
 And I wouldn't have said I don't know a year ago.
 A year ago, I would have said, we're going to be okay.
 As much as people hate Trump, the economy is doing great.
 I think we're going to be fine.
 That's not how I feel today.
 I don't think there's a clear solution politically because I think if Trump wins, people are
 going to be furious.
 And I think if Biden wins, people are going to be furious.
 Particularly like if things get more woke, you know, if people continue to enforce this
 force compliance and make people behave a certain way and act a certain way, which seems
 to be a part of what this whole woke thing is, that is the most disturbing for me is
 that I see what's going on.
 I see there's a lot of losers that have hopped on this and they shove it in people's faces
 and it doesn't have to make sense.
 Like there was a Black Lives Matter protest that stopped this woman at a restaurant.
 They were surrounding her outside a restaurant.
 They were forcing her to raise her fist in compliance.
 This is a woman who's marched for Black Lives Matter multiple times and the people all around
 her doing this were all white.
 It's all weird.
 My friend Coach T, he's a wrestling coach, is also on a podcast.
 My friend Brian Moses, his take on it is that black and he's a black guy.
 He says Black Lives Matter is a white cult.
 And I'm like, when you see that picture, it's hard to argue that he's got a point.
 I mean, it's clearly not all about that, but there's a lot of people that have jumped on
 board that are very much like cult members.
 Because the thing about Black Lives Matter or any movement is you can't control who joins.
 There's no entrance examination.
 So you don't go, okay, how do you feel about this?
 What's your perceptions on that?
 Like the man who shot the Trump supporter in Portland, that guy who murdered the Trump
 supporter and the cop shot him.
 That guy was walking around with his hand on his gun looking for Trump supporters.
 He's a known violent guy who was walking around looking for Trump supporters, found one and
 shot one.
 That has nothing to do with Black Lives Matter.
 He's a white guy.
 He shot another white guy.
 It's just madness.
 That kind of madness is disturbing to see it ramp up so quickly.
 There's been riots in Portland every night, oh, excuse me, demonstrations for 101 days
 now, 101 days in a row of them lighting things on fire, breaking into federal buildings.
 It's like, who ever saw that coming?
 Nobody saw that coming.
 So I don't know what the solution is and I don't know what it looks like in five years.
 So 2025, to answer your question, it could be anything.
 We could be looking at Mad Max.
 We could be looking at the apocalypse.
 We could also be looking at an invasion from another country.
 We could be looking at a war, like a real hot war.
 To put a little bit of responsibility on you, for me, I've listened to you since the Red
 Band, Olive Garden days, the very beginning.
 There was something in the way you communicated about the world, maybe there was others, but
 you were the one I was aware of, is you're open-minded and loving towards the world,
 especially as the podcast developed.
 You just demonstrated and lived this kind of just kindness or maybe even lack of jealousy
 in your own little profession of comedy.
 It was clear that you didn't succumb to the weaker aspects of human nature and thereby
 inspire people like me, who I was naturally, probably especially in the early 20s, kind
 of jealous on the success of others.
 And you're really the primary person that taught me to truly celebrate the success of
 others.
 And so by way of question, you kind of have a role in this of making a better 2025.
 You have such a big megaphone.
 Is there something you think you could do on this podcast with the words, the way you
 talk, the things you discuss that could create a better 2025?
 I think if anything, I could help in leading by example, but that's only going to help
 the people that are listening.
 I don't know what else I can do in terms of like make the world a better place other than
 express my hopes and wishes for that and just try to be as nice as I can to people as often
 as I can.
 But I also think that I've fallen into this weird category, particularly with the Spotify
 deal where I'm one of them now.
 I'm not a regular person anymore.
 Now I'm like some famous rich guy.
 Until you go from being a regular person to a famous rich guy that's out of touch.
 And that's a real issue whenever you're talking about the economy, about just real life problems.
 It's interesting.
 It kind of hurts my heart to hear people say about Elon Musk.
 He's just a billionaire.
 Yeah.
 It's an interesting statement.
 But I think if you just continue being you and he continue being him, people, I think
 people are just voicing their worry that you become some rich guy.
 I don't even know if they're doing that.
 I think they're just finding the way he describes it, an attack vector.
 Right.
 Yeah.
 And I think he's right.
 I think they could dismiss you by just saying, oh, you're just a that.
 You're easily definable.
 Right.
 But there's truth to that.
 If you're not careful, you can become out of touch.
 But that's an interesting thing.
 Why haven't you become out of touch?
 As a human off the podcast, you talk to somebody like me.
 You don't talk like a famous person or you don't act rich.
 You're better than others.
 Listen, I've talked to quite a few.
 You have too, but I've talked to a special kind of group of people that are Nobel Prize
 winners, let's say.
 They sometimes have an air to them that's of arrogance and you don't.
 What's that about?
 Well, you got to know what that is.
 That air of arrogance comes from drinking your own Kool-Aid.
 You start believing that somehow or another, just because you're getting praise from all
 these people, that you really are something different.
 Usually it exemplifies there's something there where there's a lack of struggle.
 I think struggle is probably one of the most important balancing tools that a person can
 have.
 For me, I struggle mentally and I struggle physically.
 I struggle mentally in that we were talking about on the podcast we did previously, you
 and I on my podcast said, I'm not a fan of my work.
 I'm not a fan of what I do.
 I'm my harshest critic.
 Anytime anybody says something bad about me, I'm like, listen.
 I said way worse about myself.
 I don't like anything I do.
 I'm ruthlessly introspective and I will continue to be that way because that's the only way
 you could be good as a comedian.
 There's no other way.
 You can't just think you're awesome and just go out there.
 You have to be picking apart everything you do, but there's a balance to that too because
 you have to have enough confidence to go out there and perform.
 You can't think, oh my God, I suck.
 I know what I'm doing, but I know what I'm doing because I put in all that work.
 One of the reasons why I put in all that work is I don't like the end result most of the
 time, so I need to work at it all the time.
 Then there's physical struggle, which I think balances everything out.
 Without physical struggle, I always make the analogy that the body is in a lot of ways
 like a battery where if you have extra charge, it leaks out of the top and it becomes unmanageable
 and messy.
 That's how my psyche is.
 If I have too much energy, if I'm not exerting myself in a violent way, like an explosive
 way, like wearing myself out, I just don't like the way the world is.
 I don't like the way I interface with the world.
 I'm too tense.
 I'm too quick to be upset about things.
 But when I work out hard and I put in a brutal training session, everything's fine.
 Well, the first time I talked to you on JRE, you were doing Sober October and there's something
 in your eyes.
 I think you've talked about that you exercise the demons out essentially, so you exercise
 to get whatever the parts of you that you don't like out.
 There's a darkness in you there, the competitiveness and the focus of that person.
 That was a scary time in a lot of ways, that Sober October thing.
 My friends, we were all talking shit because we're competing against each other in these
 fitness challenges.
 You got a certain amount of points for each minute that you went at 80% of your max heart
 rate.
 One day I got 1,100 points.
 I did seven hours on an elliptical machine watching the bathhouse scene from John Wick
 where he murders all those people in the bathhouse.
 I watched it probably 50 times in a row.
 I went crazy.
 I went crazy, but I went crazy in a weird way where it brought me back to my fighting days.
 It was like that person came out again.
 I was like, well, I didn't even know he was in there.
 It's like an assassin, like a killer.
 I felt like a different person.
 Is it echoes of what Mike Tyson talked about essentially?
 But no orgasm.
 No emotions.
 All the crazy shit that he was saying.
 Is there a violent person in there?
 Oh yeah.
 There's a lot of violence in me for sure.
 I don't know if it's genetic or learned or it's because during my formative years from
 the time I was 15 until I was 22, all I did was fight.
 That was all I did.
 That was all I did.
 All I did was train and compete.
 That was all I did.
 That was my whole life.
 Is it connected to... Your mom and dad broke up early on.
 Is it connected to the dad at all?
 I'm sure it's connected to him also because he was violent and it made me feel very scared
 to be around him.
 But I also think it's connected in who he was as a human is transferred into my DNA.
 I think there's a certain amount of... I mean, to be prejudiced against myself, I look
 like a violent person.
 If I didn't know me, even the way I'm built, not even just the working out part, just the
 size of my hands and there's the width of my shoulders.
 There's most likely a lot of violence in my history, in my past, in my ancestry.
 I think we minimize that with people.
 So much of your behavior... When I see my daughter, I have one daughter that's obsessive
 in terms of she wants to get really good at things and she'll practice things all day
 long and it's 100% my personality.
 She's me in female form, but without the anger as much and without the fear.
 She has a loving household and everything like that, but she has this intense obsession
 with doing things and doing things really well and getting better.
 What's the point?
 We have to tell her, stop doing handsprings in the house.
 Stop, stop.
 Come on, just sit down, have dinner.
 One more, one more.
 She's just like, she's psycho.
 I think there's a lot of behavior and personality and a lot of these things are passed down
 through genetics.
 We don't really know.
 We don't know how much of who you are genetically is learned behavior, nature or nurture.
 We don't know if it's learned behavior or whether or not it's something that's intrinsically
 a part of you because of who your parents were.
 I think there's certainly some genetic violence in me.
 And then you channeled it.
 Yeah, I channeled it.
 So you figured out it's basically your life is a productive exploration of how to channel
 that.
 Yes.
 How to figure out how to get that monkey to sit down and calm down.
 There's another person in there.
 There's a calm, rational, kind, friendly person who just wants to laugh and have fun.
 And then there's that dude who comes out when I did Sober October.
 That guy's scary.
 I don't like that guy.
 That guy just wants to get up in the morning and go.
 When I was competing, it was necessary, but it makes me remember.
 I didn't really remember what I used to be like until that.
 When I'm working out seven hours a day and just so obsessed and all I was thinking about
 was winning.
 That's all I was thinking about.
 If they were working out five hours a day, I wanted them to know that I was going to
 work out an extra three hours and I was going to get up early and I was going to text them
 all, hey, pussies, I'm up already.
 Take pictures, send selfies.
 I was like, you're going to die.
 I kept telling them, you're all going to die.
 You try to keep up with me, you're going to die.
 You weren't fully joking.
 No, I wasn't joking at all.
 That's what was fucked up about it.
 That's the scary thing when I interacted with Goggins and what I saw in you during that
 time is this guy, this is why I've been avoiding David Goggins recently.
 He wants to meet, he wants to talk on this podcast, but he also wants to run an ultra
 marathon with me.
 I felt like this is a person, if I spend any time in this realm, if I spend any time with
 the Joe Rogan of that sober October, I might have to die to get out.
 There's this kind of-
 Yeah, there's a competitive aspect that's super unhealthy.
 You saw the video that we watched earlier today of Goggins draining his knee.
 That would stop me from running ever again because I would think in my head, okay, I'm
 going to ruin my cartilage.
 I'm going to need a knee replacement.
 I would start thinking, I would go down that line, but he is perpetually in this push it
 mindset.
 What he calls the dog in him.
 That dog is in him all day long and he feeds that dog.
 That's who he is.
 That's one of the reasons why he's so inspirational and he's fuel for millions and millions of
 people.
 I mean, he really is.
 He motivates people in a way that is so powerful, but it can be very destructive.
 I know now, especially after the sober October thing, that that thing's still in me.
 I didn't know, so I really haven't done anything physically competitive, except one time I was
 supposed to fight Wesley Snipes.
 It came out then too.
 That came out too.
 That got creepy too, but luckily that never happened.
 That was many months of training, like training twice a day, every day.
 Kickboxing in the morning, jujitsu at night.
 I was just going and going and going and going and I was just thinking just all day long.
 It fucks with all the other aspects of your life.
 It fucks with your friendships, it fucks with my comedy, it fucks with everything.
 That mindset is not a mindset of an artist.
 It's a mindset of a conqueror.
 The conqueror, yeah, the destroyer.
 That's why it's so interesting to see Mike Tyson make the switch.
 It's clear that whatever that is, however that fight goes, there's a switch.
 He stepped into a different dimension.
 Roy Jones Jr. is coming on my podcast soon and Roy's going to be on before the fight.
 I'm so curious to see how it goes down, but genuinely concerned because Mike Tyson is
 a heavyweight and Roy Jones at his best was 168 pounds.
 I don't know if Roy has that room in his house, mental house of where Mike Tyson goes.
 I don't know.
 I don't know if he has that room.
 Mike doesn't have a room.
 He's got an empire in there.
 He opens up the door.
 With tigers.
 He opens up the door.
 There's a whole empire in his head and he's in that firmly.
 When he got out of the weed and started training again, you could see it in him.
 By the way, physically, in person, he looks spectacular.
 He looks like a fucking Adonis.
 He looks ready to go.
 It's crazy.
 Yeah, watching videos of him.
 What about you?
 Have you ever considered competing in Jiu Jitsu?
 No, for that very reason.
 I don't want to get obsessed.
 That's my number one concern.
 I had to quit video games when we were playing video games at the studio.
 I had to quit because I was playing five hours a day out of nowhere.
 All of a sudden, I was playing five hours a day.
 I was coming home late for dinner.
 I was ending podcasts early and jumping on the video games and playing.
 I get obsessed with things and I have to recognize what that is and these competitive things,
 competitive, especially really exciting competitive things like video games.
 They're very dangerous for me.
 The ultimate competitive video game is Jiu Jitsu.
 If I was young, I most certainly would have done it.
 If I didn't have a very clear career path, it was something that I enjoyed.
 My concern would be that I would become a professional Jiu Jitsu fighter when I was
 young and then I would not have the energy to do standup and do all the other things
 that I wound up doing as a career.
 When I was 21, I quit my job teaching.
 I was teaching at Boston University.
 I was teaching Taekwondo there.
 I also had my own school in Revere.
 I knew I couldn't do it right and also be doing standup comedy.
 I knew I couldn't do both of those things.
 There was no way.
 You have to be cognizant of that obsessive force within you to make sure.
 Yes.
 I have to know how to manage my mental illness.
 That's a very particular mental illness.
 I think that mental illness, again, my formative years from 15 till I was 21-ish, 22, those
 years were spent constantly obsessed with martial arts.
 That was my whole day.
 I trained almost every day.
 The only time I would not train is if I was either injured or if I was exhausted, if I
 needed a day off, but I was obsessed.
 That part of my personality that I haven't nurtured is always going to be there under
 the surface.
 When it gets reignited by something, it's very weird.
 It's a weird feeling.
 It can get reignited with a video game.
 It can get reignited with anything, that obsessive, whatever it is, that competitive demon.
 Yes.
 The way you talk about guitar, I know you would fall in love with playing guitar, but
 I think you're very wise to not touch that thing.
 That's why I want golf.
 I have friends who want to golf.
 I'm like, I don't fucking want that thing.
 A lot of people ask me, what's Joe Rogan's Jiu Jitsu game like?
 Knowing that I somehow spend hours rolling with you before and after we drag.
 You should at some point show a technique or something.
 That would be fun.
 Sure.
 I've got this technique online.
 What's your game like?
 I saw you doing I think head and arm, something online.
 Yeah.
 I fucked my neck up doing head and arm chokes.
 I did them so much that because you use your neck so much with head and arms chokes, I
 developed a real kink in my neck and it turned out I had a bulging disc.
 So you're doing on that just one side?
 Well, no, I could do it on the left side, but I definitely am better on the right side.
 The right side was my best side.
 If you were to compete, let's say, what's your A game?
 Where would you go from standing up?
 How would you go to submission?
 Would you pull guard?
 Would you take down?
 How would you pass guard?
 I don't have good takedowns.
 I was not a good wrestler.
 I would most likely either pull guard or I would pull half guard.
 Do you have a good guard?
 Yes.
 Are you comfortable being on your butt and your back?
 Yes.
 I'm very flexible.
 My rubber guard is pretty good.
 You go to rubber guard.
 Yeah.
 I have good arm bars and good triangles off my back.
 I also have a very good half guard, but my top game is my best.
 I have a very strong top game.
 You have a half guard.
 Do you have a preference of what kind of guard and how to pass that guard?
 Is there a specific game plan?
 Double underhooks from half guard is the game plan for me.
 If I can get double underhooks from half guard, I could sweep a lot of people.
 Underhooks of what?
 Sorry, the arms or the legs?
 Half guard, lockdown.
 Lockdown, got it.
 Half guard, go into lockdown, double underhooks.
 Got it.
 Clinch to the body, suck the body.
 Just pressure.
 Yeah, massive pressure.
 Then inch my way into a position we call the dog fight.
 Inch my way to a position where I could get the person on their back.
 Yeah, because you did show me I still disagree with you about the tie thing.
 The tie?
 That you can choke somebody with the tie.
 So wrong.
 So wrong.
 Well, it's not wrong with you.
 With you, it's wrong because you-
 No, I think there's a system.
 I have this thing down here.
 We're going to figure it out.
 Okay.
 Let's have a little Velcro on the back.
 See, you're just not the-
 You're not the- you're the exec, that's cheating.
 Yeah, I did feel when you showed me, I think you showed me the rubber guard because it's
 still a guard.
 That's a little bit foreign to me.
 I just felt that you can immediately feel, not with the rubber guard, but the way you
 move your body is you're like a Shange type of guy who knows how to control another human
 being.
 So some people are a little bit more, I would say, agile and playful and kind of-
 Loose.
 Loose and they work on transition, transition, transition.
 You're a control guy.
 You know how to control position and advance position.
 Donnie Heard is the same way.
 He's all about control.
 My game is smush.
 That's my game.
 Smush you.
 Grab ahold of you.
 Once I have you, why would I let you go?
 My thought is why would I let you go?
 I just want to incrementally move to a better position until I can strangle you.
 But I'm much more into strangling people than anything else.
 Which is a great MMA approach for Jiu-Jitsu.
 Well, too many people don't tap when you get their arms.
 And I'm not opposed to arm bars.
 I love arm bars, but everybody goes to sleep.
 And quit from pressure too.
 I mean, quit mentally.
 There's nothing like that.
 You can't breathe.
 If you've got a guy who's like a really good top game guy and he mounts you, and I'm a
 big fan of mounting with my legs crossed, like a guard, like a top guard.
 And so I can squeeze with both legs.
 Smush.
 And I'm just looking for people to make mistakes and slowly incrementally bettering my position
 until I can get something locked up.
 I love Jiu-Jitsu though, man.
 I just wish it didn't injure you.
 Jiu-Jitsu is like, if your joints were more durable, they could figure out a way to make
 joints more durable.
 God, I could do Jiu-Jitsu forever.
 It's so much fun.
 I actually, I talked to this roboticist, Russ Tedrick.
 He builds, he's one of the world-class people that builds humanoid robots.
 You're interested in Boston Dynamics.
 He's one of the key people in that kind of robotics.
 So I asked him the stupidest question of like, how far are we from having a robot be a UFC
 champion?
 And yeah, it's actually a really, really tough problem.
 It's the same thing that makes somebody like Danielle Cormier, like on the wrestling side
 special, because you have to understand the movement of the human body in ways that's
 so difficult to teach.
 It's so subtle.
 The timing, the pressure points, the leverage, all those kinds of things.
 That's just for the clinch situation.
 And then the movement for the striking is very difficult.
 As long as you're not allowed as a robot to like use your natural abilities of having
 a lot more power.
 Right.
 A lot more power and then more durable.
 Right.
 And the human body, like especially meniscus, like you see the heel hook game, like everybody's
 involved in leg locks and heel hooks.
 Like all those guys wind up with torched knees.
 Everyone's got torched knees.
 Everyone's knees are torn apart and you don't grow new meniscus.
 That's like one of those joints where, man, when it goes, those guys are 28 years old
 of blown out knees.
 Let me ask the ridiculous question.
 What do you think?
 We're talking about cops.
 What do you think is the best martial arts self-defense?
 For sure, jiu-jitsu.
 Yeah, for sure.
 Wrestling?
 I think grappling, I should say.
 Judo as well, especially in a cold climate.
 If you get someone who's got like a heavy winter jacket on, my God, like Judo is an
 incredible martial art.
 Plus concrete.
 That's the worst place to be with a heavy winter jacket with a Judo specialist and you're
 standing up with them.
 Oh my God.
 But I think grappling, because in most self-defense situations, it usually winds up with grappling.
 You're definitely better off though, knowing some striking because there's nothing more
 terrifying than when you go to take someone down, they actually have takedown skills,
 but they can fight.
 And so they have takedown defense and they know how to fight and then you don't know
 how to stand up.
 The worst thing in the world is seeing someone reaching who doesn't know how to do striking
 and someone cracks you.
 What about all that Krav Maga talk, which is like the whole line of argument that says
 that Jiu-Jitsu and wrestling and all of these sports, they fundamentally take you away from
 the nature of violence.
 So they're just teaching you how to play versus the reality of violence that is involved in
 like a self-defense situation that is a totally different set of skills would be needed.
 In general, the people that say that Jiu-Jitsu or other martial arts, it's more of a sport
 and they don't really understand violence.
 In general, the people that say that suck.
 Anybody who thinks like someone's like, hey man, I'll just bite you.
 I'm like, are you going to bite me?
 Okay.
 Do you think I'm going to bite you too?
 What do you think of that?
 What if I punch you in your fucking face?
 You think you're still going to bite me when you can't even see?
 You barely even know you're alive and I choke you unconscious.
 If someone's really good at Jiu-Jitsu, good luck stabbing them with your keys.
 You don't have a chance.
 You don't have a chance.
 If someone's much better, they trip you and get you on your back and then they fucking
 elbow you in your face and get a head and arm choke on you.
 All that crap magashas out the window, son.
 You're way better off learning what works on trained killers.
 This whole idea that you're going to poke someone in the eye and then you're going to
 kick them in the nuts.
 You're going through these drills that yeah, it's good to know what to do if you run into
 someone who doesn't know how to fight.
 It's way better to know what to do to someone who knows how to fight.
 That's the best thing.
 Learn how to fight against people who know how to fight.
 All that practice self-defense and they're going to come at you with a knife.
 You're going to grab the wrist and do that.
 It's good to know self-defense, but it's much more important to understand martial arts
 comprehensively.
 When you understand martial arts comprehensively, there's no Krav Maga guys, but it would be
 shocking if a Krav Maga guy and a mixed martial arts guy had a fight and the mixed martial
 arts guy who's a trained killer all around didn't fuck that guy up.
 That's what I would expect would happen.
 I would not think that some guy who has a little bit of this and a little bit of that
 and prepares for the streets is going to be able to handle a person who trains with killers
 on a day-to-day basis, who rolls with Jiu-Jitsu black belts, who trains with Muay Thai champions.
 The best martial arts are the martial arts that work on martial artists, not the martial
 arts that work on untrained people.
 What about, we're in Texas now, what about guns?
 Well, that's the best martial art.
 No, but would you, in this crazy time, should people carry guns?
 It's not a bad idea to have a gun because if you need a gun, you have a gun.
 If you don't need a gun, if you're a person with self-control, you're not going to use
 it.
 You're not going to just randomly use it, but you have something to protect you.
 This is the whole idea of the Second Amendment.
 The whole idea of the Second Amendment gets distorted by mass shootings or by terrible
 people who murder people and do terrible things.
 All those things are real, but they don't take away from the fundamental efficacy of
 having a firearm and defending your family or defending your life.
 There are real live situations where people have had firearms and it's protected them
 or their loved ones or they've stopped shooters.
 There's many of these stories, but people don't like those stories because then it tends
 to lead to this gun culture argument, this pro-gun culture argument that people find
 very uncomfortable.
 Human beings are messy.
 We're messy in so many different ways.
 We're messy emotionally.
 We're messy physically, but we're also messy in what's good or bad.
 We want things to be binary.
 We want things to be right or wrong, one or zero, and they're not.
 But there is crime in the world.
 There is violence in the world, and you're better off knowing how to fight and you're
 better off knowing how to defend yourself and you're better off having a gun.
 I generally think that guns, I do like the idea that guns, Second Amendment helps protect
 the First Amendment.
 There's a sense that puts me at ease knowing that so many people in this country have guns
 that, I mean, Alex Jones, I just listened to one episode of Infowars for the first time.
 Boy, he reminds me like when I drank some tequila, I felt like I'm going to some dark
 places today.
 That's how I feel like listening to him.
 But he talks about that he worries about martial law.
 So basically government overreach by, which happened throughout history.
 There's something to worry about there, but it puts me at ease knowing that so much of
 the population has guns that people, government would think twice before instituting martial
 law in cities.
 But I actually was asking almost on the individual level.
 I maybe shouldn't say this, but I don't yet own a gun.
 And I felt that if I carry a gun, statistically, just for me as a human, knowing my psychology,
 I feel like I'm more likely to die.
 Like, I feel like I would put myself in situations that I shouldn't.
 The way I will see the world will change.
 Really?
 Because my natural feeling is like when somebody, when I was in Philly and I knew late at night
 in West Philly, when some guy looks at you, you can immediately calculate that this is
 a dangerous human being.
 It starts with a monkey look at first, like I'm a bigger monkey than you.
 And that's where I found like, for example, I'll do the beta thing of just looking down
 and turning away and just getting out of trouble, like very politely.
 And basically that kind of approach, because if you have a, in terms of getting out of
 serious violence situations, like serious, something where you could die versus if I
 had a gun, I feel like I would want to be, that there would be that cowboy monkey thing
 where I would want to put myself in situations where I'm a little bit of a savior, even of
 myself and almost create danger, which can no longer, like the escalation of which I
 can no longer control.
 Well, you're talking about taking a gun somewhere versus having a gun in your home.
 Yes, yes.
 I mean, carry on me.
 That's a different situation and much harder to get a warrant or a license for that.
 Control concealed carry licenses, especially in Massachusetts.
 They don't come easy.
 Oh, Massachusetts.
 Yeah, that's a whole nother thing.
 Yeah.
 You're saying gun in the home.
 Yeah, gun in the home.
 Having a gun, knowing how to use a gun.
 I know how to use a gun.
 I've trained many hours learning how to shoot a gun at tactical places.
 There's a bunch of videos of me doing it on Instagram.
 I practice and I think it's good to understand how to be accurate.
 So I've been a fan of your podcast for a long time.
 You don't often talk about it because you're always kind of looking forward, but if you
 look at the old studio that you just left, is there some epic memories that stand out
 to you that you almost look back, I can't believe this happened?
 Oh yeah.
 Almost too many of them to count.
 Is there something that pops into mind now?
 All of them.
 Elon Musk blowing that flame thrower in the middle of the hallway.
 I got a video of that.
 Have you ever seen the video of it?
 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
 I think you posted on Instagram.
 I think I did too.
 Yeah, he's a madman.
 Having Bernie Sanders in there, just all the fun fight companions we did and all the crazy
 podcasts with Joey Diaz and Duncan Trussell.
 There were so many.
 There were so many moments.
 This is a weird art form and it almost seems like, it sounds silly, but it almost seems
 like something that chose me rather than I chose it.
 I think of that all the time in some strange way.
 It's like I'm showing up as an antenna and I just plug in and twist on and then I take
 in the thing and I put it together and I'm like a passenger of this weird ride.
 Yeah, you've talked about this before.
 I really like this idea that human beings are just carriers of these ideas.
 Ideas are the ones who are breeding.
 In a sense, the idea found you as a useful brain to use to spread itself through the
 podcasting medium.
 When I think about your podcast, I think about Joey Diaz.
 I think about all those comedians you've had.
 I think you've had Joey on maybe close to 50 times, 60, some crazy number.
 He is over the top offensive.
 Just that's who he is to the core.
 Is there some sense where you wondered whether it's right to have the Spotify episode number
 one with Duncan Trussell for five hours?
 No.
 I wanted to do it that way.
 That's why we wore NASA suits and we got high as fuck.
 That's the whole idea behind it.
 Can you introspect that a little bit?
 What is that?
 Because that's rare.
 It's such a rare thing to do because you're not supposed to talk to Duncan Trussell with
 a huge platform that you have five hours.
 Why not?
 Because Donald Trump apparently watches your podcast.
 That's the idea that there's these... That's what I think about these CEOs write to me
 that they listen to the podcast that I do.
 I have somebody like a David Fravor and I was nervous about it.
 I was nervous to have a conversation.
 For me, David Fravor is a Duncan Trussell, which is like...
 Just because of his experiences with UFOs.
 Yeah.
 Even just the way he sees the world because he is open.
 I don't know if he's always like this, but he opened himself to the possibility of unconventional
 ideas.
 Most people in the scientific community say, well, I don't really want to believe anything
 that doesn't have a lot of hard evidence.
 That was to me like a step.
 As the thing somehow becomes more popular, there becomes this fear of like, well, should
 I talk to this person or not?
 You're an inspiration in saying, do whatever the hell you want.
 You have to.
 First of all, I have what you call fuck you money.
 If you have fuck you money, you don't say fuck you.
 What's the point of having the fuck you money?
 You're wasting it.
 You're wasting the position.
 Someone said to me, why do you like sports cars so much?
 How many cars do you have?
 A bunch of cars.
 Because if I was a kid and I said, hey, if I was that crazy rich famous guy, I don't
 want to have a bunch of cool fucking cars.
 So I would do that because not everybody gets to do that.
 If you're the person that gets to do that, you're kind of supposed to do it.
 If you want to, if that really does speak to you.
 I've talked to you about this before, muscle cars, specifically ones from the 1960s and
 the early 70s, they speak to me in some weird way, man.
 I could just stare at them.
 I have a 65 Corvette.
 I walk around it sometimes at night when no one's around.
 I just stare at it.
 What's your favorite muscle car?
 What's your most badass late 60s, the perfect car?
 Probably that car, probably that 65 Corvette.
 65 Corvette.
 I walk around it when no one's around.
 I think I've driven the 69 Corvette.
 Is there a particular year that just- 65 is generation two, 69 is generation three, 69
 it's even more curvy.
 They're both awesome, just awesome in different ways.
 But I just love muscle cars for whatever reason.
 But the point is I like what I like and if I can do what I want to do, I should do what
 I want to do.
 And it's not hurting anybody.
 And the thing is I would do the Duncan podcast if no one was listening.
 If we were just starting to do a podcast together and no one cared and it got like 2000 views,
 which we did for years, I would do it with Duncan and we would get high and we'd talk
 crazy shit about aliens and spaceships and maybe dude, maybe ideas are living life forms
 and they're inside your head and that's how things get made.
 Man.
 Yeah, man.
 I just kind of morphed me and him together in that because the life form idea, life form
 idea is mine that I really think about a lot.
 I think about it on a technical side, by the way.
 When I heard you say that, because I've been thinking, I was like, whoa, that's interesting.
 They might be alive because I don't know what the fuck they are, but when someone has an
 idea for whatever, an invention, a toaster, and then they think about this, all it needs
 is like these heating elements and a spring and then it pops when it's done.
 So I have a timer and then they build this thing.
 Now all of a sudden it's alive.
 It's like you manifested it in a physical form.
 Toaster is not the best example, but a car, an airplane, you're thinking about a thing,
 like an idea comes into your head and you can say, oh, well, it's just creativity.
 It's a part of being a person.
 That's how we invented tools and how we became better hunters.
 All those things are true.
 I'm not saying that there's some magic to what I'm saying, but there's also a possibility
 that we're simplifying something by saying that it's just creativity, that it's just
 a natural human inclination to invent things.
 Why?
 Is it possible that ideas like creativity, like we are the only animal other than there's
 a few species that create things like bees, make beehives, but they're very uniform.
 You know, some animals use tools, you know, like chimps will use like sticks to get termites
 and things like that.
 But there's something about what we do that it makes you wonder because we look at this
 skit, just look at this room that we're in, look at all these electronics, look at all
 this crazy shit that human beings have invented and then built upon others' inventions and
 proved and innovated.
 These all came out of ideas.
 Like the idea, it germinates in someone's head, it bounces around, they write it down,
 they share it with others, the other people who have similar ideas or ideas that are complementary,
 they work together and they change the world.
 And the new thing in that is the idea is not the people.
 It's like we think we found the ideas, but it's more like the ideas found us.
 Find you, yeah.
 They're literally in the air.
 They come to you.
 I always felt like that with bits.
 Like when I come up with a bit, that's why I'm always telling people about the Steven
 Pressfield book, The War of Art, because he talks about respecting the muse and the idea
 that your ideas come when you sit down and you do the work or you sit down like a professional
 and you talk to the muse.
 Like, come tell me what to do.
 Like if the muse was a real thing, as if a muse is like some mystical creature that comes
 and delivers you ideas.
 Even if that's not real, that's how it works.
 It does work like that.
 If you do treat it like it's a muse and you treat it with the respect and you treat it
 like a professional, the ideas do come to you.
 I never thought about what he's doing is just sitting there waiting for the idea that's
 trying to breed to find him.
 Yeah.
 That's a trippy thing.
 If you show up and put in the time and focus your energy on that, the ideas, they will
 arrive.
 And that's the same with writing comedy.
 Like there's been many, many times where I'll come home from the comedy store and I just
 sit down and I start writing and I just, I've got nothing.
 There's nothing there.
 I'm just writing.
 It's all bullshit.
 Nothing's good.
 It's just like, hmm.
 And then all of a sudden, bam, there's the idea.
 And then all of a sudden I can't stop.
 And then a couple of hours later and I'm like, whoa.
 And then the next night I'm on stage and I'm like, how about that?
 Boom!
 It gets this big laugh.
 I'm like, holy shit.
 And I know that came out of the discipline to sit down and call the muse.
 I mean, the cool thing is the ideas have found you to like, oh, I'm going to use this dude.
 Like he seems to have a podcast that's popular.
 I'm going to breathe inside his brain and spread it to others.
 It's the same as-
 Or an inventor.
 I'm going to use this guy who's like desperately seeking some sort of a product to bring to
 market.
 Some guy who wants to invent things is thinking about inventing things all the time.
 These ideas, they weasel their way into your head.
 And it seems to me also that the frequency that your mind operates under has to be correct.
 Because one of the things about creativity seems to be if you think about yourself a
 lot, if you're really into yourself or your image or you're selfish, those ideas, they
 don't find you.
 Yeah, that's funny.
 The ideas-
 It stifles the creative.
 Yeah, yeah.
 Yes.
 It's the opportunity that the idea has for defining.
 Yes, which is one of the reasons why joke thieves, people that steal jokes are terrible
 writers.
 There's never like really good writers who are also joke thieves.
 It's just joke thieves and then when they have to write on their own, if they get exposed,
 they become terrible comedians.
 They're a shadow of what they were when they were stealing other people's ideas.
 Because the thing that would make you steal a person's idea is that ego part, like the
 wanting to claim it for yourself, the wanting to be the man or the woman.
 I want to be the person who gets out there and says it and everybody's going to love
 me for it.
 You can't think like that and be creative.
 It requires a humility and it requires a detachment from self in order to create.
 When I'm writing, I'm blank.
 I'm just staring.
 The part of my mind that's active is not like me.
 It's like this weird core function part where I'm not aware of my personality.
 I'm not aware of anything.
 I'm just trying to put it together in a way that I know works.
 Just being there, being present.
 That's the press field.
 I'm a big believer just sitting there, even staring at a blank page, just putting in the
 time.
 Yeah.
 Sometimes it's not that way.
 Sometimes it's an inspiration.
 Sometimes I'll be sitting there at dinner and I'll be like, I got an idea.
 My wife's really cool about that.
 I'm like, I have an idea and I have to just run out of the room real quick and I write
 it down on my phone and then I can come back.
 Because those are like little gifts that you get sometimes from the universe out of nowhere.
 Some people rely only on those gifts.
 I've talked to comics about it.
 They're like, I can't come up with my best ideas when I don't write.
 I'm like, no, I do too.
 I come up with great ideas when I don't write, but I also write.
 You can do both of those things.
 They're not mutually exclusive.
 You mentioned fuck you money.
 I feel like I have fuck you money now.
 A year ago I was at zero.
 I have fuck you money now because probably my standard is my, I don't need much in this
 world, but because also probably because of you, but it's 300 to 400,000 people listen
 to every episode I do.
 That's a lot.
 That is weird.
 That's a successful television show on cable.
 Yeah, it's crazy.
 It's all you.
 That's hilarious.
 That's amazing.
 But at this point that also resulted in a few money in a sense that I don't, I don't
 need anything else in this world.
 By way of asking, I've looked up, you've inspired me for a long time.
 Do you have advice?
 You've done this on the podcast side of life.
 Do you have advice for somebody like, for me and somebody like me going on this journey?
 Eric Weinstein is going on this journey.
 Is there advice, both small and big that you have for somebody like me?
 The advice is to keep doing what feels right to you and do what you're doing.
 Obviously, it's resonating with people if you're getting that big of an audience.
 I've listened to your podcast.
 You're very good at it.
 Just keep doing it the way you're doing it.
 Don't let anybody else get involved.
 What about, you've connected.
 I think you met Jamie at the Comedy Store.
 I met him at the Ice House.
 At the Ice House?
 Ice House.
 I think I met him at the Comedy Store, but then we talked at the Ice House.
 You'd have to ask him.
 Did you think deeply about, because you basically have nobody on your team.
 It almost feels like a marriage.
 Were you selective about somebody to bring into your little circle?
 Well, Jamie's exceptional.
 He is.
 He's a special.
 I don't remember how he was in the early days, maybe you could say.
 He's definitely better at it, but right away, he's exceptional.
 He's got very little ego.
 He's not a guy who needs a lot of attention.
 He's not a guy who overestimates anything in terms of negative or positive.
 His interpretation of whether it's good things that happened to the show or bad things that
 happened to the show, he just takes it all flat.
 He's chill.
 He's just cool as fuck, and he's so smart, and he's so good as an audio engineer and
 as a podcast producer.
 He's the best.
 He's basically one of the only people on this whole team.
 How do you find, when you let people in... I'm sure other people wanted to get involved.
 Why don't you have a co-host?
 You basically kind of... Well, here's the problem with a co-host.
 When you and I are talking, when we're talking, I'm tuned in to you, and I'm waiting to hear
 what you're saying, and I'm listening, and I'm interpreting it, and then I'm calculating
 whether or not I have anything to say, whether to let you keep talking, whether I maybe have
 a question that lets you expand further, or whether I have a disagreement.
 There's a dance that's going on.
 Now, when there's another person there chiming in too, it fucks the dance up.
 It's like dancing.
 If you're doing a dance with someone, like if you're slow dancing with someone, and then
 a third person's there stepping on everybody's feet.
 Sometimes it's fun.
 Sometimes having a third person is fun.
 Comedy podcasts, sometimes it's fun.
 Debate-
 Fight companions.
 Kind of structured.
 Yeah, debate structures, but even then it gets difficult because people talk over each
 other.
 Also, I find that without headphones, it's way easier to talk over each other.
 You make mistakes.
 You don't hear it the same way.
 When you have headphones, I hear what you hear.
 It's all one sound, and the audience hears exactly, or rather, I hear exactly what the
 audience hears.
 Whether it's over here, my voice is louder than yours because you're over there, and
 if I don't have headphones on, it's not all together.
 On that point, one of the interesting things about your show is you almost never have done,
 and you generally don't do remote, sorry, not remote calls, but you don't go to another
 person's location.
 I've only done a few, a small handful.
 And just like, well, this is a Paul Ski.
 He should do this, but I actually-
 I would love to.
 We went back and forth on email.
 I told him he needs to get his ass back in the studio.
 He's working on a book.
 I was a fan of his a long time ago because I became obsessed with toxoplasmosis.
 I've reached out to him a long time ago before he was willing to do it, but then I caught
 him in downtown LA.
 He was there for something else, and I just greedily snatched up an hour of his time.
 Well, he doesn't get, I think, some of those folks don't get how much magic can happen
 in this podcast studio, bigger than anything they've ever done in terms of their work.
 Not talking about reach, but in terms of the discovery of new ideas.
 There's something magical about conversation.
 Nobody as brilliant as him, if he gives himself over to the conversation for multiple hours
 at a time, that's another place where you've been an inspiration.
 Where I'm getting more and more confidence of telling people, like Elon Musk, that a
 lot of CEOs are like, well, he has 30 minutes on his schedule.
 I'm like, no, three hours.
 And then they're like, so some say no, and then they come back.
 There's people that started coming back to like, okay, we're starting to get it.
 They start to get it.
 And you're a rare beacon of hope in that sense, that there is some value in long form.
 They think that nobody wants to listen for more than 30 minutes.
 They think like, I have nothing to say.
 But the reality is, if you just give yourself over to like the three hours, just let it
 go.
 Three hours, four hours, whatever it is.
 There's so much to discover about what you didn't even know you think.
 Yeah.
 Yeah, you have to be confident that you could do it.
 And in the beginning, I just did it because that's what I wanted to do.
 And no one was listening.
 So I've always been a curious person.
 So I've always been interested in listening to how people think about things and talking
 to people about their mindset and just expanding on my own ideas, just talking shit.
 And so we would have these podcasts and they would go on forever.
 And my friend Ari, I never let him die, never let this die down.
 Never let him forget this.
 He was always like, you have to edit your podcast.
 I'm telling you right now, you're fucking up.
 I go, why?
 He's like, because people are not going to listen to it.
 I go, they don't have to.
 Yeah.
 I go, you listen to part of it.
 He goes, just do it.
 I'm telling you, trust me.
 Put it down to like 45 minutes.
 It's all you need.
 And I'm like, no, no, I don't think you're right.
 I like listening to long form things.
 No one has that kind of time.
 I go, okay, I'm just going to keep doing it this way.
 And it sticks to your gut.
 No, he doesn't.
 His are like two and a half hours long now.
 That's great.
 You won.
 But you wouldn't like say, I mentioned to you this before, this is going to happen.
 It's actually made a lot of progress towards it.
 I'm going to talk to Putin, but you wouldn't travel to Putin if you want to talk to you?
 Putin is a dangerous character.
 He's not.
 Have you ever seen the thing with Jerry Kraft where they stole his Super Bowl ring?
 Yeah.
 Yeah.
 I think that was a little bit of misunderstanding.
 Oh, really?
 I think it's a little bit, he just decided he's going to steal that Super Bowl ring.
 Kind of.
 I think it was a-
 Kind of.
 Can I see your ring?
 He shows him his ring and then he puts it on and says, I can murder somebody with this
 ring.
 And then he walks off with it.
 It's possible he did it.
 He's a big believer in displays of power.
 Yeah.
 So it's possible he did that, but I think he sees himself as a tool with which to demonstrate
 that Russia still belongs on the stage of the big players.
 And so a lot of the actions are selected through that lens.
 But in terms of a human being, outside of any of the evils that he may or may not have
 done, he is a really thoughtful, intelligent, fun human being, like the wit and the depth
 from the JRE perspective is really interesting.
 I'm like his manager now selling.
 He's a judo guy.
 Trying to get Trump.
 He's really good at judo.
 I have seen him practice judo.
 He's a legit black belt.
 And not only that, he loves it, not just skill-wise, but to talk about it, to reason about it,
 to think about it, to MMA as well.
 So it'd be a good conversation.
 But you wouldn't travel to him.
 Well that's hold to your principles.
 So that's the core of the advice.
 Just hold to whatever-
 I would rather... Here's the thing.
 There's not a person that I have to have on the show.
 And I'm happy to talk to anybody.
 I'm just as happy to talk to you as I am to talk to Trump, probably more happy to talk
 to you as I am to talk to Mike Tyson, as I am to talk to Joey Diaz.
 I like talking to people.
 I enjoy doing podcasts.
 I enjoy talking to a variety of people and I schedule them based on... I try not to
 get too many right-wing people in a row or too many progressive people in a row.
 I don't want to get repetitive.
 I try not to get too many fighters in a row.
 I try to balance it out.
 Not too many comedians.
 Comedians are the one group where I can have three, four in a row, five in a row, because
 that's my tribe.
 Those are my people.
 It's easy.
 We can talk about anything.
 It's a weird dance.
 The conversations that you're doing on a podcast, they're a strange dance and you want to not
 step on your own feet and you want to make sure that you do it in a way, do the podcast
 in a way that's entertaining for people.
 Conversations are learning how to talk to people.
 It's a weird skill.
 It's a weird skill that took a long time for me to get good at and I didn't know it was
 a skill until I started doing it.
 I just thought you're just talking.
 I was just, I know how to talk.
 We'll just talk to people.
 Then along the way, I realized, oh... Then when you talk to people that are bad at it,
 you realize that it's a skill.
 Particularly one of the things about my people, about comedians, is a lot of them tend to
 want to talk but don't want to listen.
 They're waiting for you to stop talking so they can talk but they're not necessarily
 thinking about what you're saying.
 They're just waiting for their opportunity or they talk over you.
 I try real hard not to do that and sometimes I fail but when I'm at my best, I'm dancing.
 Yeah, ultimately the skill of conversation is just really listening.
 Listening and thinking.
 Listening and thinking and being genuinely curious and really having a take on what they're
 saying and maybe a follow-up question or maybe... It's got to be real.
 It's got to be authentic.
 When it is authentic and it's real, it resonates with people.
 They're listening and they go, oh, I'm locked in with the way you're thinking.
 You two guys are in a conversation and I'm locked in.
 When she talks and you listen, I'm listening too.
 When he says something to her or when she says something to him, there's a thing that
 happens during conversations where you're there.
 You're listening to... With me, when I listen to a good podcast, I feel like I'm in the
 room.
 I feel like I'm in the room and I'm like the friend that got to sit down and listen.
 I go, yeah, it's a great conversation.
 I love conversations.
 I love listening to them and I love putting them together.
 The fact that this podcast has gotten so fucking big, it's stunning to me.
 It blows me away.
 I never anticipated it.
 Never thought for a second that that stupid thing that I used to do in my couch, in my
 office was the biggest thing I've ever done in my life by far.
 People used to make fun of it.
 There's a Comedy Store documentary that's coming out and one of the parts of the documentary
 is my friend Tom Segura, when he first started doing my podcast, he would be leaving and
 he would talk to Red Band.
 He's like, what the fuck is he doing?
 Why is he doing this?
 Who's listening?
 He's like, oh, some people like it.
 It's like fucking nonsense, waste of time.
 In the documentary, it shows 2,000 views, one of the early Ustream episodes.
 It's hilarious.
 They don't just like it.
 They form a friendship with you.
 Even me, when people come up to me, the love in their eyes is kind of beautiful.
 It's weird, right?
 Yeah.
 You're part of their life.
 Yeah.
 I don't know, it's also heartbreaking because you realize you'll never really get to know
 them back because they clearly are friends with you.
 Yes.
 Yeah.
 It's sad to see a person who's clearly brilliant and interesting and is friends with you, but
 you don't get a chance to return that love.
 My kids, it took them a while to figure out what's going on, but people would come up
 to me and they would say something like, hey man, I fucking love you.
 Thanks man.
 All right.
 Hey brother, nice to meet you.
 My daughter was like six.
 She'd be like, do you know him?
 I'm like, no, I don't know him.
 She's like, how does he know you?
 It's very weird conversation I used to have with young kids when I'd explain, I'd do
 this thing called the podcast and millions of people listen.
 Now one of my daughters is 12 and one of her friends is 13 and he's a boy and he goes to
 school with her and he's obsessed with me.
 She's weirded out and she says to him, I don't even think you like me.
 I think you're just into my dad, you fucking weirdo.
 She's going to have that conversation in a few stages in her life.
 That hard conversation with a boyfriend.
 Yeah, probably.
 Yeah.
 That's the thing about men too.
 This podcast is uniquely masculine.
 I'm a man and I'm also a man that doesn't have to go through some sort of a corporate
 filter.
 I'm not going through executive producers who tell me don't have this guest on, don't
 talk about that.
 We looked at focus groups and they don't seem to like when you do this.
 There's none of that.
 I just do it.
 I have a whole podcast where I just talk about cars and people are like, I don't want to
 hear you talk about cars.
 Well, good.
 Congratulations.
 You found what you like.
 Here's good news.
 There's 1500 other ones.
 Go listen to the other episodes where I don't talk about cars.
 You don't have to listen.
 It's not like your brand, you just are who you are and that's what you do.
 It's authentically what I'm interested in.
 All the podcasts, whether I'm talking to David Fravor about his experience with UFOs, whether
 I'm talking to David Sinclair about life extension, whether I'm talking to you about artificial
 intelligence or what, it's because I want to talk to these people and that resonates.
 I like when people are into shit.
 I've talked about this before, things that I have no interest in making furniture, but
 I like this PBS show where this guy makes furniture by hand.
 I love watching it.
 Craftsman.
 Because he's so into it.
 He's sanding this and polishing that.
 I'm not going to do that.
 I don't give a fuck about furniture.
 Furniture for me is function, like this desk.
 Function works, but I love when people are into it.
 I'm happy that someone can make it and they do a great job, but I'm not interested in
 the task or even the finished product as much as I'm interested in someone's passion for
 something.
 The passion that they've put into this, that shines through.
 Last question.
 I sometimes ask this just for, what is it, to challenge, to make people roll their eyes,
 to make legitimate scientists roll their eyes.
 I ask, what is the meaning of life, according to Joe Rogan?
 I do not think there is a meaning.
 I think there's many, many meanings of life.
 I think there's a way to navigate life that's enjoyable.
 I think it requires many things.
 It requires, first of all, it requires love.
 You have to have loved ones, you have to have family, you have to have friends, you have
 to have people that care about you, and you have to care about them.
 I think that is primary.
 Then it also requires interests.
 There has to be things that stimulate you.
 Now, it could be just a subsistence lifestyle.
 There's many people that believe and practice this lifestyle of just living off the land
 and hunting and fishing and living in the woods, and they seem incredibly happy.
 There's something to be said for that.
 That is an interest.
 There's something, and there's a direct connection between their actions and their sustenance.
 They get their food that way.
 They're connected to nature, and it's very satisfying for them.
 If you don't have that, I think you need something that is interesting to you, something that
 you're passionate about.
 There's far too many people that get sucked into living a life where you're just doing
 a job, you're just showing up and putting in your time and then going home, but you
 don't have a passion for what you're doing.
 I think that's a recipe for a boring and very unfulfilling life.
 You mentioned love, if we could just backtrack.
 We talked about the demons and the violence in there somewhere.
 What's the role of love in your own life?
 It's very important, man.
 It's one of the reasons why I'm so interested in helping people.
 I'm very interested in people feeling good.
 I like them to feel good.
 I want to help them.
 I like doing things that make them feel like, oh, you care about me.
 Yeah, I care about you.
 I really do.
 I want people to feel good.
 I want my family to feel good.
 I want my friends to feel good.
 I want guests to feel good about the podcast experience.
 I'm a big believer in as much as I can to spread positive energy and joy and happiness
 and relay all the good advice that I've ever gotten, all the things that I've learned.
 If they can benefit people, then I find that those things benefit people and actually improve
 the quality of their life or improve their success or improve their relationships.
 I'm very happy to do that.
 That means a lot to me.
 The way we interact with each other is so important.
 It's one of the reasons why someone gets canceled or you get publicly shamed.
 It's so devastating because there's all these people that negative, all this negative energy
 coming your way and you feel it.
 As much as I like to pretend that you're immune to that kind of stuff and some people do like
 to pretend that, you feel it.
 There's a tangible force when people are upset at you.
 That's the same with loved ones or family or anytime someone's upset at you, whether
 it's a giant group of people or there's a small amount of people.
 That has an impact on you and your psyche and your physical being.
 The more you can spread love and the more love comes back to you, you also create this
 butterfly effect where other people start recognizing like, oh, when he's nice to me,
 I feel better and then I'm going to be nicer to people.
 When I'm nicer to people, they feel better and I feel better and it spreads outward.
 That's one thing that I've done through this podcast, I think, is I've imparted my personal
 philosophy in kindness and generosity to other people.
 To correct you, you didn't do it.
 The ideas that are breeding themselves through your brain have figured out-
 Yes, the ideas that are alive in the air have made their way into my head.
 Love is a more efficient mechanism of spreading ideas they figured out.
 Yes.
 Probably, man.
 Probably.
 As far as the meaning of life, without that, you have nothing.
 One of the biggest failures in life is to be extremely successful financially, but everybody
 hates you.
 Everybody hates you and you're just miserable and alone and angry and depressed and sad.
 When you hear about rich, famous people that commit suicide, wow, you missed the mark.
 You got some parts right, but you put too many eggs in one basket.
 You put too many eggs in the financial basket or the success basket or the accomplishment
 basket and not enough in the friendship and love basket.
 There's a balance to that.
 When I talked about the violence and all that stuff, that to me is me understanding recognizing
 that is me trying to achieve that balance.
 It's to go kill those demons so that this boat is level because if it's not, then the
 boat is like this and then everything's all fucked up and every time we hit a wave, things
 fall apart.
 Pass that boat out, figure it out, know who you are.
 Some people don't have that problem at all.
 Some people, they could just go for walks and they're cool as a cucumber.
 I need more.
 I need kettlebells.
 I need a heavy bag.
 I need the Echo bike, the air assault bike.
 I need some hardcore shit and if I don't get that, I don't feel good.
 I figured that out too and that makes me a nicer person and that makes my interactions
 nicer.
 It changes the quality of my friendships and my relationships with people.
 I think we mentioned Neuralink.
 I can certainly guarantee that this is one of the memories I'll be replaying 20, 30 years
 from now once we get the feature ready.
 Joe, it's a huge honor to talk to you.
 It's an honor to talk to you too, man.
 I'm glad you came down here for this.
 The first week of me doing this here and it's very cool to have you always.
 I hope you make Texas cool again and do your podcast for another 10, 11, whatever, however
 many years you're still on this earth.
 All right.
 Thank you, brother.
 Appreciate you, man.
 Thanks for listening to this conversation with Joe Rogan and thank you to our sponsors,
 Neuro, 8 Sleep, and Dollar Shave Club.
 Check them out in the description to get a discount and to support this podcast.
 If you enjoy this thing, subscribe on YouTube, review it with five stars on Apple Podcast,
 follow on Spotify, support on Patreon, or connect with me on Twitter at Lex Friedman.
 And now let me leave you with some words of wisdom from Joe Rogan.
 The universe rewards, calculated risk, and passion.
 Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.