From: cpage@two-step.seas.upenn.edu (Carter C. Page)
Subject: Re: Reason vs. Revelation
Organization: University of Pennsylvania
Lines: 130

In article <Apr.8.00.58.08.1993.28309@athos.rutgers.edu> trajan (Stephen McIntyre) writes:
>In article <Apr.2.01.58.09.1993.17541@athos.rutgers.edu> writes:
>
>> I can only reply with what it says in 1 Timothy 3:16 :

>I'm not here to discount parts of the Bible.  Rather, I'm
>     here only to discount the notion of "revelation."
>     The author of 1 Timothy told what he thought was the
>     truth, based on his belief in God, his faith in Jesus
>     as the resurrected Son, and his readings of the Old
>     Testament.  But again, what had been revealed to him
>     was based on (at best) second-hand information, given
>     by friends and authors who may not have given the
>     whole truth or who may have exaggerated a bit.
 
First of all, the original poster misquoted.  The reference is from 2 Tim 3:16.
The author was Paul, and his revelations were anything but "(at best) 
second-hand".

	"And is came about that as [Saul] journeyed, he was approaching
	 Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him; and
	 he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul,
	 why are you persecuting Me?"  And he said, "Who art Thou, Lord?"  And
	 He said, "I am Jesus whom you are persecuting, . . ."
		(Acts 9:3-5, NAS)

Paul received revelation directly from the risen Jesus!  (Pretty cool, eh?)  He
became closely involved with the early church, the leaders of which were 
followers of Jesus throughout his ministry on earth.

>Now, you may say, "The Holy Spirit revealed these things
>     unto him," and we could go into that argument, but
>     you'd be hard-pressed to convince me that the Holy
>     Spirit exists.  

I agree.  I don't believe anyone but the Spirit would be able to convince you 
the Spirit exists.  Please don't complain about this being circular.  I know
it is, but really, can anything of the natural world explain the supernatural?
(This is why revelation is necessary to the authors of the Bible.)

>     Additionally, what he has written is
>     again second-hand info if it were given by the Spirit,
>     and still carries the chance it is not true.

The Spirit is part of God.  How much closer to the source can you get?
The Greek in 2 Timothy which is sometimes translated as "inspired by God", 
literally means "God-breathed".  In other words, God spoke the actual words 
into the scriptures.  Many theologians and Bible scholars (Dr. James Boice is 
one that I can remember off-hand) get quite annoyed by the dryness and 
incompleteness of "inspired by God".

>The only way you would be able to escape this notion of
>     "second-hand" info is to have had the entire Bible
>     written by God himself.  And to tell the truth, I've
>     studied the Bible extensively, and have yet to 
>     hear of scholars who have put forth objective evidence
>     showing God as the first author of this collection of
>     books.

That's what the verse taken from 2 Timothy was all about.  The continuity of a 
book written over a span of 1500 years by more than 40 authors from all walks 
of life is a testimony to the single authorship of God.

>> And as for reason, read what it says in 1 Corinthians 1:18-31 about
>> human wisdom. Basically it says that human wisdom is useless when
>> compared with what God has written for our learning.

>If you knew of Jesus as well as you know the Bible, you'd
>     realize he reasoned out the law and the prophets for 
>     the common man.  

What source to you claim to have discovered which has information of superior
historicity to the Bible?  Certainly not Josephus' writings, or the writings 
of the Gnostics which were third century, at the earliest.

>     And though some claim Jesus was 
>     he was human, with all of the human wisdom the
>     apostle Paul set out to criticize.  Yet, would you not
>     embrace the idea that Jesus was wise?

Jesus was fully God as well.  That's why I'd assert that he is wise.

>> I realise that you may not accept the authority of the Bible. This is
>> unfortunate to say the least, because there is no other way of learning
>> about God and Christ and God's purpose with the earth than reading the
>> Bible and searching out its truth for yourself.
>
>For your information, I was raised without any knowledge of
>     God.  By the time some of the faithful came to show me
>     the Word and share with me its truth, I was living
>     happily and morally without acknowledging the existence
>     of a supreme being.  I have, though, read the Bible
>     several times over in its entirety and have studied it
>     thoroughly.  It contains truth in it, and I consider
>     Jesus to be one of the most moral of human beings to
>     have lived (in fact, I darn-near idolize the guy.)  But
>     there's no rational reason for me to except God's
>     existence.

Please rethink this last paragraph.  If there is no God, which seems to be your
current belief, then Jesus was either a liar or a complete nut because not
only did he assert that God exists, but he claimed to be God himself!  (regards
to C.S. Lewis)  How then could you have the least bit of respect for Jesus?
	In conclusion, be careful about logically unfounded hypotheses based
on gut feelings about the text and other scholars' unsubstantiated claims.  
The Bible pleads that we take it in its entirety or throw the whole book out.
	About your reading of the Bible, not only does the Spirit inspire the
writers, but he guides the reader as well.  We cannot understand it in the 
least without the Spirit's guidance:

	"For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit 
	searches all things, even the depths of God."  (1 Cor 2:10, NAS)
 
Peace and may God guide us in wisdom.

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Carter C. Page           | Of happiness the crown and chiefest part is wisdom,
A Carpenter's Apprentice | and to hold God in awe.  This is the law that,
cpage@seas.upenn.edu     | seeing the stricken heart of pride brought down,
                         | we learn when we are old.  -Adapted from Sophocles
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[Other theologians get quite annoyed at the misleadingess of
"God-breathed."  It's true that the Greek word has as its roots "God"
and "breath".  However etymology doesn't necessarily tell you what a
word means.  Otherwise, "goodbye" would be a religious expression
(since it comes from "God be with ye").  You have to look at how the
word was actually used.  In this case the word is used for wisdom or
dreams that come from God.  But "God-breathed" is an overtranslation.
--clh]
