From: hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU 
Subject: Re: 18 Israelis murdered in March
Originator: hasan@haley.mcrcim.mcgill.edu
Nntp-Posting-Host: haley.mcrcim.mcgill.edu
Organization: McGill Research Centre for  Intelligent Machines
Lines: 189


In article <FLAX.93Apr5224449@frej.teknikum.uu.se>, flax@frej.teknikum.uu.se (Jonas Flygare) writes:
|> In article <1993Apr5.125419.8157@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu> hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU writes:
|>    In article <FLAX.93Apr4151411@frej.teknikum.uu.se>, flax@frej.teknikum.uu.se (Jonas Flygare) writes:
|> 
|>    |> In article <1993Apr3.182738.17587@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu> hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU  writes:
|> 
|>    |>    In article <FLAX.93Apr3142133@frej.teknikum.uu.se>, flax@frej.teknikum.uu.se (Jonas Flygare) writes:
|> 
|>    |>    |> I get the impression Hasan realized he goofed and is now
|>    |>    |> trying to drop the thread. Let him. It might save some
|>    |>    |> miniscule portion of his sorry face.
|> 
|>    |>    Not really. since i am a logical person who likes furthering himself
|>    |>    from any "name calling", i started trashing any article that contains
|>    |>    such abuses without responding to, and sometimes not even reading articles 
|>    |>    written by those who acquired such bad habits from bad company!

|>    [deleted stuff]
|>    well , ok. let's see what Master of Wisdom, Mr. Jonas Flygare,
|>    wrote that can be wisdomely responded to :
|> 
|> Are you calling names, or giving me a title? If the first, read your 
|> paragraph above, if not I accept the title, in order to let you get into the
|> um, well, debate again.

I didnot know that "Master of wisdom" can be "name clling" too,
unless you consider yourself deserve-less !

|>    Master of Wisdom writes in <1993Mar31.101957@frej.teknikum.uu.se>:
|> 
|>    |> [hasan]
|>    |> |> [flax]
|>    |> |> |> [hasan]
|> 
|>    |> |> |>    In case you didNOT know, Palestineans were there for 18 months. 
|>    |> |> |>    and they are coming back
|>    |> |> |>    when you agree to give Palestineans their HUMAN-RIGHTS.
|> 
|>    |> |> |>    Afterall, human rights areNOT negotiable.
|> 
|>    |> |> |> Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the right to one's life _also_
|>    |> |> |> a 'human right'?? Or does it only apply to palestinians?
|> 
|>    |> |> No. it is EVERYBODY's right. However, when a killer kills, then he is giving
|>    |> |> up -willingly or unwillingly - his life's right to the society. 
|>    |> |> the society represented by the goverment would exercise its duty by 
|>    |> |> depriving the killer off his life's right.
|> 
|>    |> So then it's all right for Israel to kill the people who kill Israelis?
|>    |> The old 'eye for an eye' thinking? Funny, I thought modern legal systems
|>    |> were made to counter exactly that.
|> 
|>    So what do you expect me to tell you to tell you, Master of Wsidom, 
|> 							       ^^^
|> ------------------------------------------------------------------
|> If you insist on giving me names/titles I did not ask for you could at
|> least spell them correctly. /sigh.

That was only to confuse you! (ha ha ha hey )

|>    when you are intentionally neglecting the MOST important fact that 
|>    the whole israeli presence in the occupied territories is ILLEGITIMATE, 
|>    and hence ALL their actions, their courts, their laws are illegitimate on 
|>    the ground of occupied territories.
|> 
|> No, I am _not_ neglecting that, I'm merely asking you whether the existance
|> of Israeli citicens in the WB or in Gaza invalidates those individuals right
	       ^^^^^^^ are you trying to retaliate and confuse me here.
|> to live, a (as you so eloquently put it) human right. We can get back to the 
|> question of which law should be used in the territories later. Also, you have 
|> not adressed my question if the israelis also have human rights.


First, my above statement doesnot say that "the existence of israeli citizens
in the WB revoke their right of life" but it says "the israeli occupation
of the WB revoke the right of life for some/most its citizens - basically
revokes the right of for its military men". Clearly, occupation is an
undeclared war; during war, attacks against military targets are fully legitimate. 

Secondly, surely israeli have human rights, but they ask their goverment to
protect it by withdrawing from the occupied terretories, not by further oppressing
Palestinean human rights.


|>    What do you expect me to tell you, Master of Wisdom, when I did explain my
|>    point in the post, that you "responded to". The point is that since Israel 
|>    is occupying then it is automatically depriving itself from some of its rights 
|>    to the Occupied Palestineans, which is exactly similar the automatic 
|>    deprivation of a killer from his right of life to the society.
|> 
|> If a state can deprive all it's citizens of human rights by its actions, then 
|> tell me why _any_ human living today should have any rights at all?


Because not all states are like Israel, as oppressive, as ignorant, or as tyrant.


|>    |> |> What kind of rights and how much would be deprived is another issue?
|>    |> |> The answer is to be found in a certain system such as International law,
|>    |> |> US law, Israeli law ,...
|>    |>[deleted, Jonas was throwing up-not for real so you can stick to the screen]
|>    |> |> It seems that the US law -represented by US State dept in this case-
|>    |> |> is looking to the other way around when violence occurs in occupied territories.
|>    |> |> Anyway, as for Hamas, then obviously they turned to the islamic system.
|> 
|>    |> And which system do you propose we use to solve the ME problem?
|> 
|>    The question is NOT which system would solve the ME problem. Why ? because
|>    any system can solve it. 
|>    The laws of minister Sharon says kick Palestineans out of here (all palestine). 
|> 
|> I asked for which system should be used, that will preserve human rights for 
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|> all people involved. I assumed that was obvious, but I won't repeat that 
|> mistake. Now that I have straightened that out, I'm eagerly awaiting your 
|> reply.

So you agree that that an israeli solution wouldnot preserve human rights.
(i am understanding this from your first statement in this paragraph).

|>    Joseph Weitz (administrator responsible for Jewish colonization) 
|>    said it best when writing in his diary in 1940:
|> 	   "Between ourselves it must be clear that there is no room for both
|> 	   peoples together in this country.... We shall not achieve our goal
|> 						^^^                  ^^^
|> 	   of being an independent people with the Arabs in this small country.
|> 	   The only solution is a Palestine, at least Western Palestine (west of
|> 	   the Jordan river) without Arabs.... And there is no other way than
|> 	   to transfer the Arabs from here to the neighbouring countries, to
|> 	   transfer all of them; not one village, not one tribe, should be 
|> 	   left.... Only after this transfer will the country be able to
|> 	   absorb the millions of our own brethren. There is no other way out."
|> 				   DAVAR, 29 September, 1967
|> 				   ("Courtesy" of Marc Afifi)
|> 
|> Just a question: If we are to disregard the rather obvious references to 
|> getting Israel out of ME one way or the other in both PLO covenant and HAMAS
|> charter (that's the english translations, if you have other information I'd
|> be interested to have you translate it) why should we give any credence to 
|> a _private_ paper even older? I'm not going to get into the question if he
|> wrote the above, but it's fairly obvious all parties in the conflict have
|> their share of fanatics. Guess what..? Those are not the people that will
|> make any lasting peace in the region. [more deleted stuff]

Exactly, you are right. I guess that the problem is that the israeli goverment 
is full with  men like Joseph Weitz. 


|>    "We" and "our" either refers to Zionists or Jews (i donot know which). 
|> 
|>    Well, i can give you an answer, you Master of Wisdom, I will NOT suggest the 
|>    imperialist israeli system for solving the ME problem !
|> 
|>    I think that is fair enough .
|> 
|> No, that is _not_ an answer, since I asked for a system that could solve 
|> the problem. You said any could be used, then you provided a contradiction.

Above you wrote that you understood what i meant (underlined by ^ ): 
any system can be used to solve the conflict , but not any system would 
resolve it JUSTLY.

|> Guess where that takes your logic? To never-never land. 

You are proving yourself as a " ". First you understood what i meant, but then
you claim you didnot so to claim a contradiction in my logic. Too bad for you, 
the Master of Wisdom.


|>    "The greatest problem of Zionism is Arab children".
|> 			   -Rabbi Shoham.
|> 
|> Oh, and by the way, let me add that these cute quotes you put at the end are
|> a real bummer, when I try giving your posts any credit.

Why do you feel ashamed by things and facts that you believe in , if you were a
Zionists. If you believe in Zionist codes and acts, well i feel sorry for you,
because the same Rabbi Shoham had said "Yes, Zionism is racism".
If you feel ashamed and bothered by the Zionist codes, then drop Zionism.
If you are not Zionist, why are you bothered then. You should join me in
condemning these racist Zionist codes and acts.

Hasan



|> Jonas Flygare, 
