From: andy@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (Andy Freeman)
Subject: Re: That silly outdated Bill (was Re: Koresh and Miranda)
Organization: Computer Science Department,  Stanford University.
Lines: 52

In article <1qibs0$flk@vela.acs.oakland.edu> awesley@vela.acs.oakland.edu (awesley) writes:
>In article <1993Apr14.225910.14964@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU> andy@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (Andy Freeman) writes:
i]>>Since there was no sniper fire, doing nothing was equally effective,
>>as was yelling "stop that".  Of course, if one wants to credit the
>>tanks with stopping non-existent sniper fire, we might was well credit 
>>it with stopping an invasion by Martians.  
>> 
>>See "Firearms, Violence and Civil Disorders" (from SRI) and "Sniping 
>>Incidents - A New Pattern of Violence" (from Brandeis University's 
>>Lemberg Center for the Study of Violence).
>
>>>>There was precisely ONE
>>>>verified sniper in the 67 riots, a drunk firing a pistol out a window.
>
>Actually, there was only one confirmed sniper to >die< in Detroit,
>according to Sauter & Hines, _Nightmare in Detroit, A Rebellion & It's

What sources did Sauter and Hines use?  In Congressional hearings
later, the newspaper folk admitted that their reports were completely
wrong.  (Some of their excuses are understandable, while others amount
to gross negligence.  Then there's their "we lied".)  As far as I
know, they never did the followup.

>>So?  People other than snipers can shoot firemen.  If they are,
>>shooting at "snipers" can't help.  Blowing big holes in buildings that
>>don't contain "sniper nests" or worrying about travelling "sniper
>>squads" is a complete waste of time.
>
>Interesting.  Just curious, they do you believe that tanks did blow
>big holes in buildings in Detroit 67?

I don't have any relevant knowledge about the counter-sniper tactics
or what the govt did with the big war toys.  That's why I've only
commented on what they couldn't have accomplished, no matter what
they did.

>>Nope - the "sniper" fire was coming from other police/guard positions.
>
>The guard certainly needed to learn.  But I don't agree with the
>idea that there were no snipers at all.  From p. 121 of Sauter & Hines:
>
>     "Despite the force of the National Guard in alliance with the
>Army troops, the snipers did not stop.  The snipers boldly lay siege to the
>Fifth Precent police station and took pot shots at the Seventh.  Firemen
>were under constant harassment from snipers fired from half-closed
>darkened windows in high apartment buildings and from roof-tops."

Not in Detroit, not during the 60s.  That's newspaper copy and they
admitted later that they were wrong.

-andy
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