From: jaf@a2.cim.cdc.com (James Foster x2912)
Subject: Re: My Gun is like my American Express Card
Organization: Control Data
Distribution: usa
Lines: 197

In article <1qie2rINN1b9@cae.cad.gatech.edu>, vincent@cad.gatech.edu (Vincent Fox) writes:
|> In <93104.173826U28037@uicvm.uic.edu> Jason Kratz <U28037@uicvm.uic.edu> writes:
|> [deleted]
|> []       And as far as fully-automatic weapons, you can be a lot better
|> []armed if you want to hit what you aim at.
|> []
|> >What seems to be happening here is the situation getting totally blown out of
|> >proportion.  In my post I was referring to your regular patrolman in a car
|> >cruising around the city vs. gang members.  Of course the police have access
|> >to the things that you mentioned but do they use tanks and such all of the
|> >time?  Of course they don't and that's the point I was trying to make.  Every
|> >day when I go out to lunch I always see cops coming in.  The majority that I
|> >see are still carrying revolvers.  Not that there is anything wrong with a
|> >revolver but if you're a cop that is up against some gang member with a couple
|> >of automatics in his coat (I mean semi-auto handguns) you're going to be at a
|> >disadvantage even with training.  I have been at a shooting range where gang
|> >gang members were "practicing" shooting.  They were actually practicing
|> >taking out their guns as quick as possible and shooting at the target
|> >and they weren't doing too badly either.   The University cops here (who are
|> >are state cops) are armed better than the Chicago police.  It seems most
|> >state cops are.

Every city and suburban police officer I've seen around the Twin Cities in the
last two years has carried a semi-auto of some type (different brands though
I haven't seen any Glock's). 

With regard to this discussion:  We are getting dangerously far from the usual
rantings of t.p.g, and close to the realm of r.g, but I'd like to put my two
cents worth in.  While there's nothing wrong with a revolver (especially a 
large frame S&W in .357 magnum - my favorite) there are valid advantages to
semi-autos.  I suggest reading Massad Ayoob's (I know, some people can't stand
him and think he's full of bull, but I think that in general his material is
very valid and useful) book _The Semi Auto Pistol in Police Work_ (or something 
like that).  He defines a number of ways that semi-auto's are different, and that
"different is good".  The main advantage is not in increased firepower, but in 
more accurate followup shots when you go to single action mode.  There is also a
certain "propriatory nature" of each gun that takes some familiarity to 
learn.  This may have diminished with time as more criminals become familiar
with different models of semi-autos, but it was cited as stopping or at least
slowing down criminals who had grabbed a police officers gun.

|> 
|> Define "armed better". Go shoot a revolver and a semi-auto like the
|> Colt .45. Does one fires faster than the other? Nope. Aside from which
|> faster rate of fire is usually not desirable. Sure it makes the other
|> guys duck for cover, but just *YOU* trying hitting anything with a Thompson
|> in hose-mode. This is why the military is limiting it's M-16 now to
|> 3-round burst-fire. Simple semi-auto would be better, but the troops
|> like to be able to rock and roll even if it is wasteful of ammo (something
|> often in short supply when the enemy is plentiful).
|> 
|> A revolver is equally capable as a semi-auto in the same caliber.
|> 
|> - A revolver also has the advantage that if it misfires you just pull
|>   the trigger again.
|> - A double-action revolver (almost all of them) can be hand-cocked first,
|>   but will fire merely by pulling the trigger.

Yes, but this is best done with a two hand hold.  With a single hand you either
pull the gun far off target to cock, or must fire double action.  The DA semi
auto has the same advantages plus is always SA after the first shot.


|> - A misfire in a revolver merely means you must pull the trigger again
|>   to rotate to the next round.

I'm not sure if this is meant to be different from your first point.  In a DA
semi-auto you can pull the trigger again to try dropping the hammer on the same
round - an advantage you don't have in a revolver where the next trigger pull will
always go to the next round (discussing this point now).  This is fine with a dud
but what about a hangfire situation?  Granted it's very rare, but your round will
now go off confined in the cylinder with no place to go.  Slingshotting the slide
on a misfire takes very little time.


|> - A revolver can be carried with the 6th chamber empty and under the
|>   hammer for maximum safety, but still can be drawn and fired with an
|>   easy motion, even one handed.

Actually with modern revolver designs incorporating hammer blocks this is not
necessary or usually recommended.  A revolver would have to fall hard enough and
at the right angle to actually break the hammer and driver the firing pin into the
round to set it off.

|> - Speedloaders for a revolver allow reloads almost as fast as magazines
|>   on semi-autos. Can be faster depending on users.

The best speedloader users, especially those using the spring loaded speed
loaders are very fast.  A problem is that ejecting the spent cases is a two
handed job where dropping the expended magazine is one handed.  This means that
while you can be inserting a fresh magazine as soon as the old one clears the
gun, with a speed loader you have to go through more motions that will always 
take more time.  You also don't have the advantage of tactical reloads (replacing
a partial magazine to bring you back to full capacity - the partial magazine can
still be used if needed later).  

|> 
|> - A misfire in a semi-auto will require you to clear a jammed shell
|>   first, time spent which can be fatal. And a vital second or so is often
|>   lost as you realize "hey, it's jammed!" before starting to do anything
|>   about clearing it.

Yes, the time to recognize the problem is just as important as the time to clear
it.  Really though, in either a revolver or semi-auto the odds of an actual misfire
with factory ammo are awfully small.  You are more likely to get a jam in a semi-auto
but even these are exceptionally rare with modern quality guns (Sigs, Glocks, et.al.).


|> - Most semi-autos must have the slide worked to chamber the first round
|>   and cock the hammer. Some police carry their semi-autos with the 
|>   chamber loaded and hammer cocked, but a safety engaged. I do not consider
|>   this safe however. You must trade-off safety to get the same speed
|>   of employment as a revolver.

|> - There are some double-action semi-autos out there, but the complexity of
|>   operation of many of them requires more training.

All common semi-auto's can be carried with a round in their chamber without any
safety problems.  While I put that out as a statement that I believe, I should
say that this applies to all of the ones I've looked at.  For the DA semi's it's
no different from the revolver situation:  The guns all have hammer or firing
pin blocks.  They also have a safety.  Because there's no real advantage
carrying one of these cocked and locked you have the same safety and speed
of employment as a revolver, plus the advantage of SA followup shots.  I'm
not familiar with SA semi-autos except for the 1911-A1.  I admit that I was
initially skeptical about carrying this cocked and locked, but after examining
the design, trying to defeat the safeties (gun unloaded of course), and 
shooting it a lot, I see no inherent safety problems with it, especially in
a thumbreak holster with the strap under the hammer.  This design also gets
you more speed for an accurate first shot than a revolver.

|> 
|> Some police departments switched to Glocks, and then started quietly
|> switching many officers back to the old revolvers. Too many were having
|> accidents, partly due to the poor training they received. Not that Glocks
|> require rocket scientists, but some cops are baffled by something as complex
|> as the timer on a VCR.

Yeah, the infamous Glock.  I still can't figure out how it's worse than a revolver
for safety.  If you don't pull the trigger it doesn't go off.  I imagine that if all
your revolver shooting was done double action then you could pull the Glock trigger
far enough to fire before you realized it.  In addition, if you had developed that
nasty habit of keeping your finger on the trigger when holstering your gun and
relying on your thumb on the hammer to remind you to take it off before you blew
off your foot then you'd have problems when the hammer wasn't there.

|> 
|> Anyone who goes anyone saying that the criminals obviously outgun
|> the police don't know nothing about firearms. Turn off COPS and Hunter
|> and pay attention. I do not seek here to say "semi-autos are junk"
|> merely that assuming they are better for all jobs is stupid. A cop
|> with a revolver on his hip and a shotgun in the rack is more than
|> equipped for anything short of a riot.

I think this is even okay for a riot (as long as it's a small one B^)).

|> 
|> Gun control is hitting what you aim at. If you whip out a 
|> wonder-nine and fire real fast you may find you don't hit anything.
|> Good controlled fire from a revolver is more likely to get you a hit.
|> I own a 9mm Beretta myself but consider it inferior as a carry weapon
|> to something like the Ruger Security Six revolver. If I haven't hit
|> what I'm aiming at in the first 5 shots, something is quite seriously
|> wrong somewheres. While I might like having the backup capacity of those
|> extra shots in certain cases, overwhelmingly the # of shots fired in
|> criminal encounters is less than 5.

I have the poor man's Beretta (Taurus 99) and consider it inferior as a carry
weapon to the Springfield .45 (oops, 9mm vs. 45 arguments are relegated to
r.g).  You are right, though.  If you don't hit what you aim at then the
shooter/gun combination has failed.  I don't ascribe failures in the the
fire real fast with a wonder-nine scenario you mention to the gun.  This is
a shooter failure, whether through lack of discipline or lack of training.


|> 
|> What do crooks overwhelmingly use in crime? Why the same nice simple
|> .38 revolvers that the police often use. Well actually some police 
|> prefer the much heftier .357 Magnum, but anyway.....

9mm's are becoming more popular with crooks too, though the .38 does still
lead the list.  And like I said, around here semi-auto's seem the rule for the
street cop.  Don't know about the State Patrol however, they may still carry
the "Highway Patrolman".

|> 
|> ObPlea: Don't flame me, I prefer semi-autos for most things. But they 
|>         introduce unneccessary complications to something as nerve-wracking
|>         as an abrupt encounter with a lone criminal.

Vincent, please don't take any of this as a flame.  Just my $0.02 (whoops, looks more
like $2.00) worth.  And much of it is IMHO, but do check Ayoob's book.

|> 
|> -- 
|> "If everything had gone as planned, everything would have been perfect."
|> 	-BATF spokesperson on CNN 3/2/93, regarding failed raid attempt in TX.
