From: hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU 
Subject: Re: 18 Israelis murdered in March
Originator: hasan@fangorn.mcrcim.mcgill.edu
Nntp-Posting-Host: fangorn.mcrcim.mcgill.edu
Organization: McGill Research Centre for  Intelligent Machines
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Sorry guys for this long article, but in fact it is mostly quotings..

In article <FLAX.93Apr6125933@frej.teknikum.uu.se>, flax@frej.teknikum.uu.se (Jonas Flygare) writes:
 
|>    |>when you are intentionally neglecting the MOST important fact that 
|>    |>the whole israeli presence in the occupied territories is ILLEGITIMATE, 
|>    |>and hence ALL their actions, their courts, their laws are illegitimate on 
|>    |>the ground of occupied territories.
|>    |> 
|>    >No, I am _not_ neglecting that, I'm merely asking you whether the existance
|>    >of Israeli citicens in the WB or in Gaza invalidates those individuals 
|>    >right
|>    |> to live, a (as you so eloquently put it) human right. We can get back to the 
|>    |> question of which law should be used in the territories later. Also, you have 
|>    |> not adressed my question if the israelis also have human rights.
|> 
|> 
|>    First, my above statement doesnot say that "the existence of israeli citizens
|>    in the WB revoke their right of life" but it says "the israeli occupation
|>    of the WB revoke the right of life for some/most its citizens - basically
|>    revokes the right of for its military men". Clearly, occupation is an
|>    undeclared war; during war, attacks against military targets are fully legitimate. 
|> 
|> Ok, let me re-phrase the question. I have repeatedly asked you if the 
|> Israelis have less human rights than the palestinians, 

well, if you just waited for 5 more lines you would have read my statement
"Secondly, surely israeli have human rights, but ..."

|> and if so, why.

because they belong to the human race, or do you disagree on that too ?

|> From your posting (where you did not directly adress my question) I inferred
|> that you thought so. Together with the above statement I then assumed that the
|> reason was the actions of the state of Israel. Re: your statement of 
|> occupation: I'd like you to define the term, so I don't have to repeat this
|> 'drag the answer out of hasan' procedure more than neccesary.
|> 
|>    Secondly, surely israeli have human rights, but they ask their goverment to
|>    protect it by withdrawing from the occupied terretories, not by further oppressing
|>    Palestinean human rights.
|> 
|> I'm sorry, but the above sentence does not make sense. Please rephrase it.

I donot know about you, but it makes full sense to me.
Israelis are being killed because Israel is occupying , Let israel withdraw
and israeli blood will be saved. It isNOT the palestineans who undermined
the right of life of israelis, but it is israel which occupied and exposed 
the life of its citizens to the the unconcluded war of 1967 !

More generally, the violence in the occupied terretories is part of the intifada,
and i had previously posted a "long" article about this issue, whom i finished
by an open question:
Suppose the Intifada stops, What is the motive for Israel to withdraw ?
donot tell hope for peace and this bullshit. Everybody in the world looks
and hopes for peace, so why isnot there any. hope of peace is necessary
but not sufficient motive.


|>    |> If a state can deprive all it's citizens of human rights by its actions, then 
|>    |> tell me why _any_ human living today should have any rights at all?
|> 
|> 
|>    Because not all states are like Israel,as oppressive,as ignorant,or as tyrant.
|> 
|> Oh, ok. So how about the human rights of the Syrians, Iraqis and others?
|> Does the name of Hama sound familiar? Or how about the kurds in Iraq and
|> Turkey? 
|> How about the Same in Sweden (Ok, maybe a bit farfetched..) the Russians in
|> the Baltic states or the Moslem in the old USSR and Yugoslavia?
|> Do the serbs have any human rights remainaing, according to you?

As for the Arabian countries, their problems are an Arabian concern. 
the Arabian people can deal with it themselves, if the west doesnot intervene.
As for Serbs, I donot think that those FUCKED UP RAPISTS (excuse my language
but it really hurts as much if I was in Bosnia itself) areNOT humans. Those
surely came from outer space or something. No human can allow himself
to see such attrocities than to participate in.
 
|>    |>    |> And which system do you propose we use to solve the ME problem?
|>    |> 
|>    |>    The question is NOT which system would solve the ME problem. Why ? because
|>    |>    any system can solve it. 
|>    |>    The laws of minister Sharon says kick Palestineans out of here (all palestine). 
|>    |> 
|>    |> I asked for which system should be used, that will preserve human rights for 
|>       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|>    |> all people involved. I assumed that was obvious, but I won't repeat that 
|>    |> mistake. Now that I have straightened that out, I'm eagerly awaiting your 
|>    |> reply.
|> 
|>    So you agree that that an israeli solution wouldnot preserve human rights.
|>    (i am understanding this from your first statement in this paragraph).
|> 
|> No, I'm agreeing that to just kick all the Palestinians out of Israel proper 
|> would probably lead to disaster for both parties. If that's what you refer 
|> to as the 'Israeli solution' then so be it.

Ok.

|>    |>    Joseph Weitz (administrator responsible for Jewish colonization) 
|>    |>    said it best when writing in his diary in 1940:
|>    |> 	   "Between ourselves it must be clear that there is no room for both
|>    |> 	   peoples together in this country.... We shall not achieve our goal
|>    |> 						^^^                  ^^^
|>    |> 	   of being an independent people with the Arabs in this small country.
|>    |> 	   The only solution is a Palestine, at least Western Palestine (west of
|>    |> 	   the Jordan river) without Arabs.... And there is no other way than
|>    |> 	   to transfer the Arabs from here to the neighbouring countries, to
|>    |> 	   transfer all of them; not one village, not one tribe, should be 
|>    |> 	   left.... Only after this transfer will the country be able to
|>    |> 	   absorb the millions of our own brethren. There is no other way out."
|>    |> 				   DAVAR, 29 September, 1967
|>    |> 				   ("Courtesy" of Marc Afifi)
|>    |> 
|> |> Just a question: If we are to disregard the rather obvious references to 
|> |> getting Israel out of ME one way or the other in both PLO covenant and HAMAS
|> |> charter (that's the english translations, if you have other information I'd
|> |> be interested to have you translate it) why should we give any credence to 
|> |> a _private_ paper even older? I'm not going to get into the question if he
|> |> wrote the above, but it's fairly obvious all parties in the conflict have
|> |> their share of fanatics. Guess what..? Those are not the people that will
|> |> make any lasting peace in the region. [more deleted stuff]
|> 
|> >Exactly, you are right. I guess that the problem is that the israeli goverment
|> >is full with  men like Joseph Weitz. 
|> 
|> Oh? Have you met with them personally, to read their diaries? Fascinating.
|> What do you _do_ for a living?
|> 
|> |>    "We" and "our" either refers to Zionists or Jews (i donot know which). 
|> |> 
|> |>    Well, i can give you an answer, you Master of Wisdom, I will NOT suggest the 
|> |>    imperialist israeli system for solving the ME problem !
|> |> 
|> |>    I think that is fair enough .
|> |> 
|> |> No, that is _not_ an answer, since I asked for a system that could solve 
|> |> the problem. You said any could be used, then you provided a contradiction.
|> 
|>    Above you wrote that you understood what i meant (underlined by ^ ): 
|>    any system can be used to solve the conflict , but not any system would 
|>    resolve it JUSTLY.
|> 
|> An unjust solution would be a non-solution, per definition, no?

My definition is the same as yours, but one has to look into the world politics.
In politics, a "solution" doesNOT imply "JUST solution".

|> You said the following:
|> 
|> For all A it holds that A have property B.
|> There exists an A such that property B does not hold.
|> 
|> Thus, either or both statements must be false.
|> 
|>    |> Guess where that takes your logic? To never-never land. 
|> 
|> >You are proving yourself as a " ". First you understood what i meant, but then
|> >you claim you didnot so to claim a contradiction in my logic. 
|> >Too bad for you, the Master of Wisdom.
|> 
|> I was merely pointing out a not so small flaw in your reasoning.
|> Since you claim to be logical I felt it best to point this out
|> before you started using your statements to prove a point or so.
|> Am I then to assume you are  not logical?

It seems that it was problem in the definition of "solution".
I think a solution must be just, because otherwise it would never be lasting.
However, when politicians say a solution, they donot mean a just solution but 
just a solution.

|> |>    "The greatest problem of Zionism is Arab children".
|> |> 			   -Rabbi Shoham.
|> |> 
|> |> Oh, and by the way, let me add that these cute quotes you put at the end are
|> |> a real bummer, when I try giving your posts any credit.
|> 
|> >Why do you feel ashamed by things and facts that you believe in , 
|> >if you were a Zionists. If you believe in Zionist codes and acts, 
|> >well i feel sorry for you, because the same Rabbi Shoham had said 
|> >"Yes, Zionism is racism".
|> >If you feel ashamed and bothered by the Zionist codes, then drop Zionism.
|> >If you are not Zionist, why are you bothered then. You should join me in
|> >condemning these racist Zionist codes and acts.
|> 
|> Any quote can be misused, especially when used to stereotype all 
|> individuals by a statement of an individual. If you use the same
|> methods that you credit 'Zionists' with, then where does that place you?
|> 
|> Oh, by the way, I'd advice you not to assume anything about my 'loyalties'.
|> I will and am condemning acts I find vile and inhuman, but I'll try as 
|> long as I can not to assume those acts are by a whole people.
|> By zionist above do you mean the state of Israel, the government of Israel, 
|> the leaders of Israel (political and/or religious) or the jews in
|> general? If you feel the need to condemn, condemn those responsible
|> instead. How would you feel if we started condemning you personally
|> based on the bombings in Egypt? 
|>
|> Jonas Flygare, 


Hasan
