From: meyers@leonardo.rtp.dg.com (Bill Meyers)
Subject: Re: The 'pill' for Deer = No Hunting
Organization: N/I
Lines: 114

In article <1qk3jm$9sh@transfer.stratus.com> cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares) writes:
>In article <1993Apr14.221646.2332@gnv.ifas.ufl.edu>, jrm@gnv.ifas.ufl.edu writes:
[ ... ]
>> 	Why are 'good' neighborhoods 'good' ? It isn't because every
>> 	person is armed to the teeth. It is because of (1) attitude
>> 	and (2) cooperation. In the 'good' neighborhoods, the residents
>> 	make themselves aware of their neighbors and notice when
>> 	strangers are lurking around. 'Good' neighborhoods form groups
>> 	like 'crime-watch' to increase this effect, and the relative
>> 	effectiveness of the police. When hostiles are arrested, the
>> 	good neighbors step up and say "THAT'S the one officer ! He
>> 	was robbing Mr. Jones' house". 
>
>Sometimes this works.  Sometimes it just lands your good neighbors 
>on the dance card for the next wave of drive-bys.  Someone here once
>told a story about LA gangs moving into Phoenix.  I've misplaced the

Here'a a copy, cdt:
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>Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns,ou.politics
>Path: dg-rtp!psinntp!uunet!sun-barr!ames!haven.umd.edu!darwin.sura.net!wupost!csus.edu!netcom.com!mvp
>From: mvp@netcom.com (Mike Van Pelt)
>Subject: The difference an armed civilian population makes
>Message-ID: <y52n_tc.mvp@netcom.com>
>Date: Thu, 17 Sep 92 23:42:42 GMT
>Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
>References: <swood.716099748@vela>
>Lines: 84
>
>Along the lines of "The Armed Citizen", here's a story that
>some of you may find amusing.  It's a story about Arizona
>house-hunting, from Leslie Fish, musician and author...
>
>----
>     ... One of the reasons I'm planning to move to Arizona is that --
>despite its lousy economy, 4-way race problems, simmering religious
>problems and hopelessly bad government -- Arizona has one of the lowest
>violent- crime rates in the country. Is it just coincidence that
>Arizona is also one of the few remaining no-gun- control states in the
>country?
>
>    Well, consider this funny story. Last time I was in Phoenix,
>staying with Liz Burnham, I did some checking on the local real-estate
>market (that's when I discovered that, with my income -- as provable by
>my tax returns -- I can qualify for every low-income housing loan in
>the book, with the exception of VA), and I came across an astonishing
>ad in the local market-paper. It offered a three-bedroom house in the
>Phoenix area for -- are you ready for this -- all of $10,000. No money
>down. $100 per month total payments. Christ on a Harley-Davidson! I
>called up the real-estate office making this offer, made it clear that
>I was only checking the local market, and asked about that house. Were
>the walls, roof and foundation structurally sound? Yes. Were the
>plumbing and electrical systems functional and up to code? Yes. Did the
>air-conditioning system (an absolute necessity in Phoenix) work?  Yes,
>again.  Okay, so what was wrong with the house?  Well, it needed lots
>of plastering, painting, yard work, and some patching of the roof --
>and yes, low-interest repair loans were available.  Okay, sez I. If
>that's all that's wrong with it, just why are you selling a 3-bedroom
>house for all of $10,000? Well, squirms the agent, it's in kind of a
>bad neighborhood. How bad? sez I, remembering some of the neighborhoods
>I've seen in Chicago and Oakland.  Worst in the city, the agent sighs,
>and then he told me this amazing story.
>
>    Every few years, it seems, the big vice-gangs in Los Angeles notice
>that there's no gang presence in Phoenix -- which is just a quick
>5-hour drive from LA -- and get the idea of setting up a subsidiary
>there. Well, a couple years ago, the colonizing force came to this
>neighborhood -- it being poor and Spanish, they figured they could move
>right in and take over -- bought this house and started operations.
>Unfortunately for them, the neighbors not only didn't like this -- they
>didn't care for whores trotting up and down their streets all night,
>pimps soliciting their kids, dope- deals on the corners in broad
>daylight, and so on -- they weren't afraid to do something about it.
>The neighbors called the cops (for some reason, the Phoenix police are
>remarkably honest, capable, polite and prompt), and the cops promptly
>came and swept up all the whores, pimps and pushers off the street and
>away to jail. The remaining gang members decided to retaliate in the
>fashion they usually use in LA; they got the complainant's name and
>address off the court records, and did a drive-by shooting at his
>house.  Well, this wasn't Los Angeles. The moment the neighbors heard
>the first gunshots fired, they all ran out their front doors with their
>own guns -- rifles, shotguns, pistols, everything -- and shot back.
>
>    The car didn't make it to the end of the block. It coasted to a
>stop, riddled with more holes than the famous Bonnie and Clyde getaway
>car (which I've seen; it's on display in a casino in a casino in Las
>Vegas).  The gas tank and fuel lines had been ruptured, so the car
>caught fire. The neighbors waited a good 15 minutes -- making sure
>nobody got out of that car -- before they called the fire department to
>come put out the fire and tow the wreck away. By that time, the asphalt
>under the car had melted and caught fire too, which subsequently left a
>large and nasty pot-hole in the street. The city is slow about
>repairing small streets, so the hole stayed there providing a traffic
>hazard for several months. All this was two years ago, the agent
>concluded, and there's been no trouble since, but the house and the
>neighborhood still have a bad reputation -- and that's why the house
>was so cheap.
>
>    Hearing this story, I nearly laughed my ass off. I told the agent
>that if I had the money at the moment, I'd by-god buy the house; this
>was _nothing_ compared to bad neighborhoods I'd seen here in
>California, where drive-by shootings go unchecked by the well-armed
>cops, let alone by the unarmed neighbors. If that's the absolute worst
>you'll find in Phoenix, then that's the city for me.
>
>    That's the difference that an armed civilian population makes.
>Think about it.
>
>
>-- 
>Mike Van Pelt                                When guns are outlawed,
>mvp@netcom.com                               only Carl Rowan will have guns.
>mvp@hsv3.lsil.com
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