From: shantanu@risc.sps.mot.com (Shantanu Ganguly)
Subject: Re: Are BMW's worth the price?
Organization: Motorola, Inc. -- Austin,TX
Lines: 86
NNTP-Posting-Host: daffy.sps.mot.com

In article <9866@ceylon.gte.com> hhd0@harvey.gte.com (Horace Dediu) writes:
>In article <1pvjlnINNckf@daffy.sps.mot.com>, shantanu@risc.sps.mot.com (Shantanu Ganguly) writes:

>|> 
>|> Some comments:
>|> 
>|> a) Good performance and mid and high speeds can be obtained by adjusting the
>|>    top gear and final drive ratios. Contrary to popular misperception, a 
>|>    number of Japanese cars have quite good performance from 70+ in top
>|>    gear. 
>
>No problem with that.  The question is:  do they perform consistently in all
>conditions (roads, winds and curves) at that speed and do so for hours on end, 
>year after year without giving the driver white knuckles?  From my experience on 
>the Autobahns/Autostrade, a good touring car can be easily distinguished by its 
>"poise" at >100mph.  The best stay on cruise control at 155 for hours.  I've
>seen the typical boy racer in a Fiat try to keep up.  Sure they hit the century
>mark, but if the wind blows the wrong way they change lanes, and if on an
>overpass, they may fly right into a guardrail.  The buffeting at 125 can be
>severe enough to  make the hood bend.  Tires at 155 can melt, and a pothole can
>kill.  Many German cars are designed for this environment, even if they can't
>seem to get out of their own way from a stop light (Mercedes come to mind in
>particular.)  And another design point is fuel economy at those speeds.  The
>Germans gear the car for very good high speed efficiency (a typical M-B 300E turns
>1500 at 55, almost a stall :-)

Good point. I have no idea how either of my Hondas will handle at 100+ mph,
nor do they reach 155. However, using `high' to be 70-90 mph:

a) They are quite amenable to long high speed drives. I've done several
1k mile+ trips in my Civic with no problems whatsoever. The last big trip
I made was driving from New York to Texas. I remember driving 700-800
miles a day at typically 75-85 mph  without any problems. I'm sure I  
would have been more comfortable driving a benz, but no white knuckles.
No problems with winds and curves. 

Then there was the trip back from New Orleans after Mardi Gras - where
we were doing 80+ all the way to Houston. No problems.

b) Both my cars have surprising good fuel economy at high speeds. I see
no difference between sustained 60 mph and sustained 80mph. On the trip
back from New Orleans, we got about 30 mpg in my Integra, quite ok. Mind
you, the engine revs to almost 4k at 80. The civic is markedly better
than the Integra in fuel economy. 50k miles down the road, I still
get 35 mpg at 70-75 mph driving.


>|> b) I can't understand why these high-scale European marquees are afraid
>|>    to design engines that can be repeatedly revved to near redline in
>|>    the low gears. I have been doing that for that last 50k miles with
>|>    my lowly Civic, with no detriment to either the engine or the clutch,
>|>    and getting excellent mpg to boot. I'd call this an engineering hack
>|>    to cover up design deficiencies.
>
>At 50k miles you'd still be breaking-in a "high-scale European marquee"  They 
>typically are designed to last 300,000 miles per engine, 500,000 mi. per
>chassis. (The record is now over 1,500,000 miles on a Benz diesel, and I've
>read about *transmissions* lasting 700,000 miles.)  Speaking of

Now now, you can't compare a diesel with a gasoline engine. I see enough
bmws and gasoline mercs for sale that have 100-150k miles on them and advertise 
rebuilt engines. If honda was to build an accord for 30k, I'd darn well
expect the sucker to last 300k miles.

>diesels, they have very good efficiency at the cost of acceleration, and are very
>popular in all European cars (diesel is considered the "green" fuel) from the
>smallest econoboxes to the luxo-barges.  Again, we see a difference in mentality.
>Diesels in the US are considered slightly worse than useless, and extremely
>"dirty" to boot so you can't give them away.

Ever got caught behind a early 80's 300SDL at a stop light? It's not
pleasant. The newer MB's are a lot better though. The diesel Volvos
and VWs are probably the smelliest offenders.

As for economy, why should we care? Gas is cheap! I personally wouldn't
buy a diesel car for any reason - what does it buy me?

Shantanu Ganguly
Somerset (Motorola)

phone : (512) 795-7146                  Motorola Inc, Mail Drop OE 513
fax   : (512) 795-7513                  6501 William Cannon Drive W.
                                        Austin TX 78735-8598
email : shantanu%ibmoto.com@oakhill.sps.mot.com


