From: bskendig@netcom.com (Brian Kendig)
Subject: Re: Is it good that Jesus died?
Organization: Starfleet Headquarters: San Francisco
Lines: 203

brian@lpl.arizona.edu (Brian Ceccarelli 602/621-9615) writes:
>bskendig@netcom.com (Brian Kendig) writes:
>
>>And I maintain:
>>
>>Some people do not want to enter into the light and the knowledge that
>>they alone are their own masters, because they fear it; they are too
>>afraid of having to face the world on their own terms.  ...
>
>Are you your own master?  Do you have any habits that you cannot break?

If I have a habit that I really want to break, and I am willing to
make whatever sacrifice I need to make to break it, then I do so.
There have been bad habits of mine that I've decided to put forth the
effort to break, and I've done so; there have been other bad habits
that I've decided are not worth the effort to break.  It's my choice,
either way.

I am my own master.  I choose what I want to do.  I weigh the benefits
of my actions against their consequences, and I use my experience to
help me deal with the unexpected, which in turn make me more experienced.

I don't always succeed, but I never fail, either -- I learn.

Do *you* have any habits you can't break?  Why not?

>For one, you seem unable to master your lack of desire to understand
>even the slightest concept of the Bible.

I have arrived at my own understanding of Christianity, just as you've
probably arrived at your own understanding of Islam that is most
likely very different from the way a Moslem thinks of his religion.
Are you "unable to master your lack of desire to understand even the
slightest concept of the Quran"?  If that's different, then how is it
different from what you accuse me of?  Can I accuse you of having no
desire to understand even the slightest concept of atheism?

>How about sexual sins?  Gotta any of those secret desires
>in your head that you harbor but can get control of?   Do you dehumanize
>women when they walk past you?  Do you degrade them to a sex object in
>your head?

Of COURSE not.  That's disgusting.  For centuries, religions have been
discriminating on sex and treating women as second-class humans;
that's one of the reasons I renounced my Christianity.

>Do you insult
>people unknowingly, then regret it later.  Yet do it again the next
>time opportunity presents itself?

No.  I don't insult people.  Period.  It's not in my nature, and it's
not something that I want to do, either.

>Are you truly the master of yourself?

Not yet -- but my life is the ground I use to practice on.  The fun is
in the getting there!

>I have admitted that I am not the master of my thought life at all times.
>That I sometimes say things I do want to say, and then repeat my mistake
>unwantingly.  I have admitted to myself that I cannot control every aspect
>of my being.  There are times I know I shouldn't say something, but
>then say it anyway.  There are times I simply forget a lesson.
>I, in fact, am not my own master.

We don't start out perfect; we've got to strive to be something
better.  I know my shortcomings, and I know my strengths, and I live
my life according to the decisions I make, and I am content to abide
with the consequences of my decisions as easily as I'll accept the
praise for them.  There have been times in my life when I've made
mistakes, yes; I try to never make the same mistake twice.

>I need help.  Jesus promised me
>this help.  And I took him up on his offer.  I have willfully let
>Jesus be my master because Jesus knows what is better for me than
>I myself do.

I regard Christ as a myth.  I feel that there are far too many people
offering far too many interpretations of what he supposedly said and
did.  The only person who can really judge me is *me*.  I choose the
roads I travel, and I decide whether or not I want to reach the end of
any given road or turn back -- and as long as I don't *always* turn
back, there's no shame in it.  When I need help, I seek out my friends.

>>Do you see my point?  I think you're the one under the rock, and I'm
>>getting a great tan out here in the sunlight.  My life has improved
>>immesurably since I abandoned theism -- come and join me!  It will be
>>a difficult trip at first, until you build up your muscles for the
>>long hike, but it's well worth it!
>
>Then I guess ignorance is bliss for you.  Because Brian, you enjoy
>not having a clue about the Bible.   

And you don't have a clue about what I'm saying, either.  Open your
eyes and SEE; open your ears and LISTEN.  I'm not just spouting off
empty words.  This is my LIFE, this is what gives me MEANING.

>>Don't you see?  I'm not going to accept ANYTHING that I can't witness
>>with my own eyes or experience with my own senses, especially not
>>something as mega-powerful as what you're trying to get me to accept.
>>Surely if you believe in it this strongly, you must have a good
>>*reason* to, don't you?
>
>Can you witness motherly love with your senses?  How does caring and
>concern for you register with your senses?  If nothing registers
>to you other than what you can see, taste, smell, hear and touch,
>then you better become a Vulcan and fast.  You better get rid
>of your emotions.

Huh?  You're going WAY off the track here.

I say my mother loves me.  How do I know, you ask?  I can point to
definite things she's done for me, and I can even just bring her to
you so you can ask her, face-to-face.

You say your deity loves you.  How do you know, I ask?  You can't even
convince me that it exists!

>My God says that you will not CEASE EXISTING.  You have
>life forever.  You can choose to either live it in hell in eternal
>torment where there is no communication whatsoever, or can choose to 
>live it in paradise with God.  That is what my God says.  And that
>was the issue.  Your made-up theism is what it is--made up.  It's
>wishful thinking.

If any god dangles 'heaven' before me like a carrot, promising untold
pleasures to me if I'll only suspend my disbelief and ignore my
rationality for just this once, then I would choose 'hell'.  I can
*not* lie to myself to placate another being, no matter how powerful
it is.

Note also that there are several gods trying to lure me this way:
Yahweh, Allah, Zeus, Odin, Ra...  Please give me a solid reason to
choose one of them over the others.

[ description of Kendigism deleted -- hee hee! ]

>Why would you want to live a good life?
>To you, you die and that's it.  Don't contradict yourself.  You have
>no reason to live a good life.  It doesn't do you any good in the
>end.  Your life doesn't do anybody else any good  either because
>everyone dies anyway.  So you have no reason to lead a good life. Leading
>a good life is meaningless.   Why do you do such a meaningless thing?

That paragraph demonstrates that you haven't listened to a single word
I've said.

Have you ever gone to an amusement park?  Why?  I mean, after a few
hours, it closes, and nothing's different except that you're a few
dollars lighter.  Going to the amusement park doesn't do you any good
at all.  Why do you do such a meaningless thing?

The answer is that you think it's fun.  You play the skee-ball over
and over because you'd like to get better at it, even though you're
not going to win anything better than a stuffed animal even if you
blow ten dollars on it.  You ride the roller coaster because it's an
thrilling experience, even though (because?) it scares the dickens out
of you.

In the same way, I think life is fun.  And I don't intend to leave the
amusement park of life until they close down for the night!  :-D

>>I'm sorry, I don't feel that sacrificing Jesus was something any god
>>I'd worship would do, unless the sacrifice was only temporary, in
>>which case it's not really all that important.
>
>Has the resurrection sunk in?  Jesus is alive.  Jesus is NOT dead.

So you (and your holy book) say.  By the same token, therefore, Santa
Claus delivers toys every xmas.  Don't you see?  I have NO REASON to
believe that what you say is true.  Please give me some reason that I
can't similarly apply to Santa Claus.

>>Forget the Bible for a minute.  Forget quoting verses, forget about
>>who said what about this or that.  *Show me.*  Picture just you and me
>>and a wide open hilltop, and convince me that you're right.
>
>Forget that I am a person.  Forget that I know how to type.  Forget
>that I know how to put a sentence together.  Forget that I know
>how to send e-mail.   Forget my existence.  Proove to me that I
>exist.  .

I can't do it, because your existence means nothing more to me than
just your communications over the net.  You have no more bearing on
nor importance in my life than that; remove it, and you will cease to
be significant to me.

Are you thereby inferring that your deity is nothing more than a
collection of verses in a book, and cannot be supported without
invoking them?

Or do you mean that the existence of your deity (and, in fact, any
other deity that can be written about) is as real as your own
existence?

Why do you believe what you believe?

-- 
_/_/_/  Brian Kendig                             Je ne suis fait comme aucun
/_/_/  bskendig@netcom.com                de ceux que j'ai vus; j'ose croire
_/_/                            n'etre fait comme aucun de ceux qui existent.
  /  The meaning of life     Si je ne vaux pas mieux, au moins je suis autre.
 /    is that it ends.                                           -- Rousseau
