A Conversation
[Mo]
I think right now the biggest lesson about love I’ve ever had to learn is: I’ve never had to forgive someone and keep loving them. I’ve had a lot of people in my life that if they’ve done anything to hurt me, they are gone out of my life. So, I think that I’ve never realized love means how much you have to forgive and let go of things and not let it effect the way you feel about the person. Because it doesn’t. It doesn’t really change. You know, circumstances don’t change love, even though people think you can just fall out of love: it’s not that easy. It’s not that easy to fall out of love. There have been times I wish I could fall out of love. I’ve been like, “Ah, I wish I could not love him. I just wish, you know, I didn’t love him, but…”

[Breck]
You see, since the very first night we went to a concert (actually on a blind date through a mutual friend) and from that moment… There was a band playing behind my head, we were, like, ten feet from this band. I don’t remember the band. I don’t remember the band. I remember one thing and that was talking and falling in love with her. And I never changed. That has never changed. I left. I had already had tickets to leave to go to an old girlfriend. To live with this person. And those feelings never left. And I knew then, even with six months separating us, that I would be with her even though I was trying to make my life. I was trying to be this person that I always had in my brain that I was supposed to be. This was the person that I was supposed to be with, and this was what I was supposed to be, but I fought against it. I fought against that. I didn’t know where my life was going, to lead me back then. That’s when you were young and fresh, well, I just fresh out of college and…

[Mo]
And I was a divorcee with a baby, and I drank a lot so we were quite a pair. And I don’t know. It’s miraculous and it shows me how much God has a hold on your life even when you don’t want him to have a hold on your life. Even when you’re not allowing him to have hold of your life because, you know, I could have gotten myself into really bad situations. I mean, I met Breck at a club, for heaven’s sake! How many relationships come out of people that you met on a dance floor? People get amazed when I tell them, “Yeah, you know, I saw him on a dance floor, he saw me on a dance floor and we danced together and that’s pretty much it.” And the fact that we’ve together for fourteen years after meeting on a dance floor and that everything was natural. I mean, I knew with Breck from the first moment he talked to me because everything was natural. There was none of that nervousness, you know, when we kissed the first time; there was none of that awkwardness. It was just absolutely, “Okay, this is what…” And I just came out of a marriage. I just came out of a really bad marriage, and I was like, “Oh, is this what it’s supposed to be like? Is this really the way I’m supposed to feel? Because I’ve never felt like this before. And…

[Breck (interrupting)]
Yeah but you have to qualify that… (fades out)

[Mo]
Breck is steadfast, you know. Breck is always there, and he’s never changed that, and he’s very affectionate. And I’m very, you know. You know how people always say men can never say they love you, or men can never be affectionate?

[Breck]
Or men can never cry?

[Mo]
And he’s a big bawlbaby
[Breck]
What can I say?

[Mo]
He’s always been extremely affectionate and I’ve taken it for granted, you know? I really have. I’ve been like, “Get off me. Leave me alone.” And I’ve had to realize that I’m blessed and that there are people that would die for that. Women that would crave so much that I just don’t even think twice about sometimes. But no matter how good he is, you know, there’s always room for improvement. Always. We’ve had to go through struggles. It’s like some people think that on the outside it’s like everything looks so ideal sometimes. Just the way people perceive us sometimes. People at church or people in…you know. We teach all the kids at church and people are always like, “Breck and Mo! Breck and Mo!”

[Breck]
It’s as if we are one. Our email address? It’s Breck and Mo. It’s always been that. It’s always been one. We are one

[Mo]
Yeah

[Breck]
And I guess that’s where the love comes in. I’ve never thought of anything other than, you know, what can I do for her? I’ve always been that way until recently. I mean… (pauses). There was a moment in my life where I never stopped loving her, but things had grown to a level where there was no new growth. Does that make sense?

[Mo]
It was stagnant

[Breck]
We were stagnant

[Mo]
It was just a rut. It wasn’t a bad rut. We didn’t feel bad in that rut. It was just day to day, just taking people for granted. You just take things for granted. You know, he goes to work. He comes home. He brings me money. I spend it. We raise our kids, and there was nothing new. So God just kinda slapped us in the face

[Breck]
Yeah, he did
[Mo]
And a situation arose and it was scary, and it was frightful, and I still fight it every day. But, you know, temptation comes to everybody, and it’s a matter of how you handle it, and he handled it well. He was tempted. He faltered. He ran away and came home, and that’s all that matters. So it’s been a very big lesson. We’ve probably had more intense emotional conversations in the last three months than we’ve had in thirteen years. You know, just talking and really just making sure he understands where I’m coming from and him making a point to talk even when he doesn’t want to talk

[Breck]
And also its… (pauses). And not only that, but when I was tempted…and we’ll leave it at that…I realized where my heart was. You know, that was when my life really… (Restarts) I rededicated myself to the nth degree. I can’t even imagine who I was before that, what kind of Christian I was before that, but now it’s just amazing. The way I feel; the way I perceive the world; the way I perceive my own family. You know, I was always doing what I thought was good and what I knew I needed to do. But to really have Jesus in that aspect in my heart now, it’s like one hundred and eighty degrees different from where we were before. And it was God’s intervention and God bringing this situation to us. It was what we needed. (Turning to Mo) Would you agree?

[Mo]
Oh yeah. It’s hard to see that some days, but yeah. It was definitely what I needed because we just… we realized how much we have now and we didn’t before, you know? Just like, “Okay, this is it. I love you. You love me.” But when your love is tested and you actually have to go through things, and you actually don’t want to love that person anymore, but you don’t have a choice it’s…you know…(pauses). I mean, neither of us ever thought about walking away from each other, but emotionally, you can shut down. And I have. I shut down, and it’s easier to be like, “I’m going to put up a wall and protect myself. I’m just, you know, I don’t want to talk to you anymore. I don’t want to listen to you because I’m just going to deal with my own stuff.” And that’s been hard to say, “I’m not by myself.” And I’m a loner, and I like to be by myself, and he is not a loner. He is exactly the opposite. So, how we ever came to be is amazing sometimes because he’s Mr. Friendly-outgoing and I’m Mrs. Hermit “leave me in my house you come to my house and I’ll feed you but I’m not going out.”

[Breck]
(Laughs) I take care of all the social obligations

[Mo]
He does. If he’s not… (pauses). (Restarts) I had to go to a funeral this week without him, and I was like, “Oh my gosh!” And it was my family. I mean you’d think it was my family I would be comfortable but even in my family, Breck’s the one talking and making conversation. Even within my own immediate family, like parents, brothers, sisters, I’m just the quiet one and Breck is everything else. So we’re a good balance. We’re a good team. We balance each other out, the goods and bads. And our baby’s upset because we drove her two and a half hours in the middle of the night and she’s gonna have to scream all the way home… (fades out)

[Breck]
Count your many blessings

[Bradley]
So, you said you don’t have a choice, like you didn’t even think about walking away. Why? Why stay together?

[Mo]
Because I love him. I couldn’t live without him. I mean, no matter how much I wish I could just be that loner person that doesn’t need anybody. I hate admitting that I need him. I mean that has been the hardest part of these whole three months is saying I have to realized (turning to Breck) how much I need you and depend on you. And I have to express that to you. I can’t just think it inside, “Oh, I need him,” but then just be a witch on the outside. Or just, you know, put on this cold front, but down deep inside know I need him. I mean, it actually takes expressing that, and he needs to hear it. You know? He wants to know that I need him. He wants to know that I can’t imagine living without him, and I can’t. I really cannot. Even though, you know, it would be easier some days. But it’s not a matter of easy. It’s a matter of where your commitment is. And it’s a matter of, you know, the right decision and not just walking away because walking away seems like the right decision a lot of times. It just seems easier but then the regret… And I just, I don’t want to regret it. I want to just… (restarts) I don’t want to regret any day. I don’t want to regret any way I’ve acted, or I don’t want to regret things I’ve said or things I haven’t said. I just (pauses)… I regret a lot over the last few years of things that we just let fall into cycles, and ruts, and things left unsaid, and not trying hard enough. And now it’s like trying extra hard…

[Breck]
That’s right
[Mo]
A lot of trying. And just every day. And just kinda putting yourself aside

[Breck]
It’s like almost… it’s like, you know, when you first meet someone and you really work so hard to be with that person and do what they do? What you think they want you to do? And it’s almost like that’s come back to the forefront of our marriage and to our lives. It’s not like I’m doing anything out of the ordinary that I was doing before, it’s just I’m trying that much harder

[Mo]
Well, it’s your thought process. I think for years it was just a matter of “Okay, we’re together. We know we’re together. We know we’re together. There’s not really a question of us being together. So, I’m worried about my own things, and he’s worried about his own things. And if he’s worried about his bonsai, I don’t care about his bonsai, that’s his thing. And if I’m worried about my tie dye, he doesn’t care about my tie dye.” You know? And now, it’s like we’ve really had to refocus and be like, “Okay, I really want to worry about what you’re worrying about, and I really want to be interested in what you’re interested in. Not because I really give a rip, but because you’re interested in it.” You know? Because half the time I don’t care. I can sit there, listen to him, and I’m like, “Okay, I’m listening. I’m listening. God, please help me listen!”

[Breck]
I can see her eyes glazing over sometimes when I talk about work

[Mo]
Yeah, he talks about work but that’s just a dilemma. Because he does go to work. I don’t leave my house. I mean I’m with my kids all day. I’m home schooling. I’m with kids. So, you know, he has all these other things going on. So when he comes home, he’s talking to me about that and I’m just like, “Okay.”

[Breck]
(Interjects) And your day was the same

[Mo]
And my conversations are a little more limited. And, you know, a lot of my day is music and Breck and I just aren’t really on the same path musically, which is… (fades out)

[Breck]
What can you do to change it? What did pastor say?

[Mo]
(Continues) And that’s been a hard lesson for me. Past is past and I tend to dwell. I just pick things apart. I mean, I’ll take a situation, I’ll take the smallest situation and I’ll just dissect it. I mean, I have to know the specifics, I have to know this, and that, and Breck is just like, “Past is past, can’t do anything about it now. Past is past.” And I’m just like, (unintelligible sound)

[Breck]
(Interposes) What is today? You know, your relationship today and what can you do to change or make that better today?

[Mo]
And we’ve had a process because, you know, like we said, neither of us were living for God at the time. I mean, I knew better. I was raised and my whole divorce pretty much just threw me for a loop, you know. My ex-husband was like, “I don’t have to follow the rules.” And I’m like, “Well, if you don’t have to follow the rules, then I don’t have to follow the rules.” You know? I was in a…(pauses) When we met, like I said, it’s all God because when we met we were just… I was a mess. He wasn’t much better. I mean, he grounded me to a point, you know? But it didn’t stop it. I mean we just would go out together, we would party together…

[Breck]
(Interrupts) And that was the thing. We would go out. We were still going out. The second we would go out…

[Mo]
(Interrupts) We would go our separate ways at the club and we weren’t doing anything

[Breck]
We might bounce into each other once in a while

[Mo]
We’d dance then at the end of the night. I always knew who I was going home with, but it was just like, “Hm, see ya later, I’m gonna go talk to my friends. You’re gonna go talk to your friends. I’m gonna dance. I’m gonna drink.” And then we…

[Breck]
It took us many years bringing our children up, going through different work and different things. And then finally going to church together and finding a place for us, you know, a religious home other than our own home. And that’s been a problem in our house, you know, spiritually. At home. Sometimes we aren’t that strong as a family

[Mo]
Well, we’ve just let it… we’ve just let things slip. When we met, you know, I…(pauses). It just never was discussed. Like God, spiritual things, were never discussed in our relationship. Never. And even when I said, “We gotta start going to church. I gotta get my life right.” Because some terrible things have happened and I knew, you know, I can’t live like this anymore. Um, he just went to church to appease me, you know. For heaven’s sake, he’s played Jesus in our Easter drama for five years. I mean, he has thousands of people come to see him every year play Jesus. We put on a mega performance. I do all the costumes

[Breck]
A Branson type…

[Mo]
A Branson type performance in Wichita. It’s huge. And, you know, that’s one of the first things that came to my mind when all this crap went down a few months ago. And I was like, “You play Jesus, for heaven’s sake…”

[Breck]
But I’m still human

[Mo]
That’s one of the things that’s been refreshing, which I wouldn’t suggest it to anyone. If we had been on the right spiritual path from the get-go, we probably wouldn’t have fallen into some of the things we’ve fallen into. But it’s made it fresh, now, because we are finally on the same page spiritually, which we’ve never been before. You know, I’ve just always kinda been… I knew he wasn’t probably where he needed to be. But I really didn’t want to confront it, or address it, or deal with it, you know? It’s like, “I know where I am and, you know, you’re saved.” And that’s pretty much where I left it, you know? And I home school my kids, so I take care of my kids. I really don’t want to leave my kids in any sort of spiritual…um…situation with him at this point. And I would know, I mean, there’s been miraculous growth, and God has, you know…(pauses). I have to remind myself of that when everything seems really bad. I’m like, “He wouldn’t have been at this point if we hadn’t of…” You know, you have to go through the bad to appreciate the good. That’s so cliché, but it’s so freakin’ true. You know, I wrote that in one of my emails. I was like, “I hate saying this. It sounds like a Hallmark card.” But you have to be faced with some really scary stuff to realize, “Alright, this is good.” And it is, this is good. You know, you don’t find very many people that will just do anything for you. And when you do, nothing’s gonna take that away. And Breck will. I would say Breck would do anything for me more than I would do anything for Breck. I mean, he’s just always been like that. Whatever I want, whatever I need, you know, he’s driven me to me. He’s taken care of the baby outside so I can go, because I don’t want to drive and, um, it just, it doesn’t faze him

[Breck]
But for young couples? I have no advice. It took us twelve years and, you know, every day is still new

[Mo]
I don’t know. Just don’t take it for granted. That’s all I would say. If you find someone that you really care about and you really know in your heart that you’re supposed to be with, then just don’t take it for granted. Because it’s easy. I mean, after things get comfortable and after you know that’s the person and after they know that you’re the person, then you’re like, “Okay, alright, here we are. You know you don’t want anyone else. I don’t want anyone else. So let’s just, you know, not really look at each other the way we used to look at each other.” Not really think, “Oh my gosh, this, this is what we have. I am so blessed!” And it’s just so easy just to forget that. You know, I don’t ever want to forget that again. Because every day is just a chance to learn something new about that person, or to learn something together about something that you’ve never known before, but do it together. We’ve just gone on our separate paths for so long and I’m just ready to do that. I’m just ready to do stuff together, you know? I told him that not very long ago, “You know, I don’t really care where we go, I just want to go with you.” And I’ve never said that before. I’m usually like, “I gotta go here. I’m going to a concert here…”

[Breck]
(Interrupts) It’s always. It’s been like that for years

[Mo]
For years. And now, you know, I’ll ride with him on the most mundane errands, which I have never done before. Before it’d be like, “You do this. You do this. I’m gonna stay here.” And now I’m like, “Okay, I just want to go with you. I’ll just ride with you.” And he’s like, “Really? You want to ride?”

[Breck]
Cuz I always asked, “Are you sure you don’t want to go with me?” And, “Nah, you just go ahead and take care of it.” Now, when I ask, she’s like, “Yes, I will. We’ll go with you.” And that pleases me. It makes me happy to drive them around in my old bus, you know. It’s…it’s amazing

[Mo]
And that’s just simple things. I mean, it’s just simple things. I mean, we don’t go out. We don’t really do anything without our kids. We don’t go on, you know, dates and we never have. I mean, we’ve just never…

[Breck]
Freya’s always been a part of my life with Mo. Always. So when we first developed our relationship, that was part of our lives

[Mo]
Yeah, kids have always been there. So, we’ve never known, like, the whole newlywed-be-by-ourselves

[Breck]
She had her earlier relationships. I had my earlier relationships, and we didn’t need that. We were past it. And so, you know, and I think every person you meet, they have…it might not be a little baby girl, it might be a past, or a situation that you’re dealing with that’s come up, so there it is. It might not be making diapers, but it’s part of her life or part of their life

[Mo]
And you just have to be content with how people are and not try to change them. Because I kept thinking, “I want him to do this. I want him to be this.” And it never happened. It never happened the way I wanted it to happen. But then once, you know, God got hold of the situation there, have things happen, I was like, “Okay, if I would have even known this was a possibility I would have asked for it. If I would have even known that he could have been, you know, this spiritually grounded or he could have been this much of a support system in such emotional ways...” I know he’s the only person. I know he’s the person God had for me. There’s not a doubt in my mind, and there never really has been. But we just…the things that he can bring out of me and the things that I can bring out of him, there’s just no way that…(trails off)

[Breck]
You mentioned earlier that in the church everybody sees us as one, or something, and they’re always, “Oh, you’re so creative this and you’re so creative that.” Well, that’s not individually, that’s collectively. It’s the two of us, together, and that feeding off each other

[Mo]
Yeah, we bounce ideas. I come up with the idea, usually. Like, “Okay, I want the kids to make this crazy mountain thing!” And then Breck’s the one that kinda, you know… my ideas are like, here (gesturing upward with hands) and he brings them down, like, “Okay, this is what we need to do…”

[Breck]
To make it actually happen

(Laughter from both)

[Mo]
To make it actually happen. You know, that ticks me off half the time. I’m just like, “No! I don’t want them to have papier-mâché people gleaming up the side!” He’s like, “We get these little stick figures, and we hang them off the string.” And, you know, half the time we’re bickering with each other in front of them, but I know he’s right. I just don’t like to admit it, and he knows I’m always right. That’s just kind of our ongoing ting. I’m always right. Always. (Recants) No, I have to swallow my words sometimes

[Breck]
Oh, shush. You don’t either

[Mo]
But no. And it’s not that we try to put on a front. It’s just we truly are happiest when we are together. I mean, you know, you guys saw me before the day you came, and it wasn’t like that big of a difference. But, you know, when you guys came to eat and Vivi was freaking out or whatever, and I as like, “Okay, as soon as Breck gets here.” And when he gets there, it’s just kind of a load off my shoulders, you know. Here’s the baby, and I know I can come. And he just…he takes care of things behind the scenes. And when we have people over, we just kind of…we’re working in the kitchen together and we just sort of, um…

[Breck]
(Finishes the thought) We make things happen. And I think a marriage is the same way, or a relationship

[Mo]
Yeah, you just have to feed off each other

[Breck]
I think that’s the sacrifices. So many divorces happen because no one wants to sacrifice. They just hold on to their own self and their own selfishness, and they’re never able to sacrifice for the other

[Mo]
Well, it’s just a matter of thinking, “What am I getting out of this relationship? What is it for me? How is this affecting me?” Instead of thinking, “What am I supposed to be giving to this other person? What do they need from me?” And that’s the hard lesson. Cuz I thought, “Me! Me! Me!” for a lot of years. And I mean, I’m there cooking dinners, cleaning the house, whatever. But, you know, if I wasn’t emotionally getting what I needed instead of just expressing it to him, I’d just keep it to myself and let it fester. And I’ve realized it wasn’t doing any good. I mean, it wasn’t doing any of us any good. And then he just gets up to the point of not having to talk because I’m not asking him to talk. And then I just get, you know, pissed off because he’s not talking. So it’s a matter of balancing out what you need with what the other person can give you, and what you can give them, and being content with that. Being content, I mean, you have who you have, and you are who you are, and God made you that way. And God gave you that person for a reason, so just be content with it and stop fretting. Worrying about who else it out there or what you’re missing. You know, that was hard for me when I had to stop going out and partying. “What am I missing? Who am I missing that’s out tonight?” Or, “Who am I not seeing?” And getting to a point where this is all I need. (Gesturing to Breck) This is the only person I really need to see every day. And, you know, I’m sad when he goes to work. And when he gets home, I’m happy. And for years I’ve never been like that. For years, I’ve been like, “Oh, Breck’s home.” And we’ll eat. I’m glad he’s there because he’s taking care of the kids or whatever. And I don’t know how many times during the weekend, I’d be like, “I can’t wait for you to go back to work.” I used to say that. I’ve said that on several occasions and I just want to…it makes me sad. It makes me sick now that I ever thought that, you know? “Oh God, if the weekend could just get over so you can go back to your life and work and I can go back to my life here.” And that’s just not the way it should be. When you’re together, you’re together, and it’s not your life anymore. It’s your life together