text: I Saw His Humanity: 'Reveal' Host On Protecting Right-Wing Protester 
   
   Enlarge this image toggle caption Amy Osborne/AFP/Getty Images Amy Osborne/AFP/Getty Images 
   
   On Sunday a planned rally of right-wing activists in Berkeley, Calif., mostly fizzled out, but thousands of peaceful left-wing protesters turned out, singing songs and chanting. 
   
   About 150 members of anti-facist groups — also known as antifa or black bloc protesters — also were there, marching in formation with covered faces. Then a couple of people from the right-wing did show up. 
   
   That's when Al Letson, host of the investigative radio program and podcast Reveal from the Center for Investigative Reporting and PRX, saw one right-wing man fall to the ground, and some left-wing antifa protesters beating him. 
   
   Letson jumped on top of the guy to protect him, because, he says, he didn't want anyone to get hurt. Earlier this month, a woman was killed during a violent white supremacist rally in Charlottesville, Va. 
   
   "When I glanced to my left I saw, you know, a mass of people just coming off the lawn towards this guy, and I don't know — I just, I thought they were going to kill him. And I just didn't want anybody to die," Letson says. "And I just put my body down on top of his, in the hopes that they would not hit me." 
   
   Interview highlights 
   
   
   
   On why he protected this man 
   
   What came to me was that he was a human being, and I didn't want to see anybody die. And, you know, I've been thinking a lot about the events in Charlottesville, and I remember seeing the pictures of a young man being brutally beaten by these guys with poles, and when I saw that I thought, "why didn't anybody step in?" 
   
   And you know, in retrospect, it doesn't matter if he doesn't see my humanity, what matters to me is that I see his. What he thinks about me and all of that, like — my humanity is not dependent upon that. 
   
   On how he balances his ethics as a journalist with his own morality 
   
   I don't want to be a part of the story, at all. And I believe in all of those journalistic ethics and all of that — but I also think that, before that, I'm a human being. 
   
   You know, I mean this sounds really high-minded and maybe a little nutty, but I am a huge NPR nerd, and many years ago I was listening to Terry Gross and father Greg Boyle was on there, and he gave this quote that has just stuck with me ever since. He said, "I want to live like the truth is true, and go where love has not been found." And it's how I want to govern myself in the world. 
   
   So when I get into this situation where the decision is, do you be a journalist or do you be a human, I'm going to put the journalism to the side and do the thing that feels right for me. 
   
   On if this event changed his view of antifa protesters 
   
   It hasn't really changed the way I think about them at all. I think that the problem that happens when we have the antifa or people on the left engaging in violence is that it shifts the narrative. 
   
   Suddenly, we are equating people that are fighting Nazis with Nazis — and the two things don't equate, right? And we've seen what they can do when they're in power. So we see and know exactly what that is. 
   
   It's a false equivalency to say that the people fighting back against that are the exact same. But I also see how the violence that is coming from the antifa movement can be spun to make it seem like the two are equivalent. 
   
   So you know, we're living in tricky times when there's a lot of nuance that needs to be walked through — and America is not good at nuance. So I think, for me, it didn't change the way I thought about them, but it does mean as a reporter, as a producer, as a journalist ,that I'm thinking even more about what that nuance means, and how to communicate it to the audience. ||||| Amy Osborne/AFP/Getty Images 
   
   On Sunday, while covering Berkeley’s Rally Against Hate, Al Letson—host of the Center for Investigative Reporting’s Reveal podcast—found himself shielding a man from the blows of far-left black bloc protesters. The clip of his intervention has been shared widely across social media by critics of the antifa movement. 
   
   Antifa beat down apparent alt-righter. pic.twitter.com/WVdDJqLKmA — Shane Bauer (@shane_bauer) August 27, 2017 
   
   I interviewed Letson about the incident, and what it's like to cover antifa and the alt-right more broadly, Monday afternoon. 
   
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   Osita Nwanevu: So walk me through how you ended up protecting this guy. Who was he? 
   
   Al Letson: No idea who he was. The longer story is that there was the rally—I think one thing that people should know is that it was mostly a peaceful rally. It wasn’t like anarchy and fighting and brawling everywhere. It was mostly a peaceful thing. Most of the protesters there were not what I would call antifa. They were a mixture of people. The antifa were definitely there, but I would say that they were maybe 20 percent of the crowd? But they were there, and they showed up in force. 
   
   So [far-right activist] Joey Gibson was doing his “Patriot Prayer” thing—he came through with like two other guys, and he was antagonizing the black bloc, and it really escalated. So they started chasing Joey and this guy. They ran across the street—I’m literally right next to Joey while all this is happening, so I know this to be true—they ran into the police, and the police kind of protected them. But this other guy—I’m not sure if he was with Joey. It looked like he was, but I’m not sure. He was running in kind of a different place, and he stumbled—or someone tripped him—and then four or five people surrounded him and began to kick and hit him with like a flagpole. And I was just filming it, but at some point I looked behind him and I saw a whole mass of people coming, and I just thought that they were going to kill him. And, you know, I didn’t want anybody to die. So I just dropped my stuff and dove in and got on top of him. Originally I wasn’t planning on getting on top of him; I just wanted to shield him. I wanted to break it up, but then I realized there were too many of them, and there was no way that was going to happen. 
   
   There’s been a rumor going around on social media—which has been promoted by conservative writers—that this man was simply going to a grocery store. Is that true? 
   
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   No, I don’t think that’s true at all. He was there with Joey, and I think he was filming the rally, if I remember correctly. I know he had a camera. And I think that they took the camera from him. But I’m pretty sure he was out there with Joey filming the whole thing. 
   
   Did stepping in calm down the antifa demonstrators? And were there other fights before this? 
   
   I pretty much left after that. After that, I was burnt. But I saw people having small skirmishes here or there. Mostly it was running people out of the square—like someone would try to say something, and they would get chased out. That happened twice, maybe three times. It was very small, very contained. It was not like this chaotic scene that you see in the video. Absolutely, that did happen. It was crazy there. But it was mostly a peaceful situation. 
   
   I think there’s been a tendency to conflate the question of whether it’s moral to physically confront the alt-right with the question of whether that kind of action is actually effective. What are your thoughts on the broader debate we’ve been having about violence? 
   
   What I’m seeing happen is that the violence from the far left is beginning to create an equivalency in both the media’s mind and a lot of other people’s minds between the alt-right and the alt-left. And I don’t think that there’s an equivalency there. What you’re talking about with the white nationalists, white supremacists, alt-right, whatever they want to name themselves—they want an ethno-state. They want people of color, LGBTQ people, and everybody that’s not white out of this country. And we’ve seen what that looks like in Nazi Germany. We know what that means. You’re not going to get people to peacefully line up and walk out of the country. So, you’re talking about people who are advocating genocide and then equating them with people who are fighting against advocates for genocide. And there’s no equivalency there for me. Obviously if someone’s talking about the genocide of a race or getting rid of people, it’s much worse than someone who is doing violence to protect those people. But I think violence creates that false equivalency. So I think it’s something that we as a country and the black bloc and others have to think about. 
   
   You interviewed Richard Spencer right after the election in November, and that kind of dialogue has been held up as a productive alternative to direct confrontation or preventing figures on the alt-right from expressing their views. Did you find that conversation productive? Do you think you actually delegitimized him in any meaningful way? 
   
   Yeah, I feel pretty strongly about this. I think that there is a way that I engage that is about exposing them and allowing our listeners and anyone listening to see exactly who this person is. I think that there are ways that you can engage them where you are giving them a platform, and that’s not what I ever want to do. But for me—I didn’t know who Richard Spencer was until maybe a week before that interview. And therefore, if I don’t know who he is, I can’t see the foundation that he’s laying out to build his organization and spread his concepts. Only in the light can we dispel this stuff that’s growing in the dark corners. So, that’s the way I see it: I’ve got to keep my eye on this guy. ||||| Al Letson shields a demonstrator from attacks at a protest in Berkeley Sunday. Credit: Shane Bauer i 
   
   UPDATE: The man Letson protected identifies himself as Trump supporter and video blogger Keith Campbell. 
   
   While covering Sunday’s “Rally Against Hate” in Berkeley, California, today, Reveal host Al Letson witnessed a man being attacked by a group of protesters. The man was balled up on the ground, fending off blows from several people. Letson, wearing a red T-shirt, jumped in front of the batterers, protecting the man from further injury. 
   
   Antifa beat down apparent alt-righter. pic.twitter.com/WVdDJqLKmA — Shane Bauer (@shane_bauer) August 27, 2017 
   
   “I was scared they were going to kill him,” Letson said. “So the only thing I could think was I wanted to get on top of him to protect him.” 
   
   The altercation was caught on video by Mother Jones journalist Shane Bauer, who identified the aggressors as anti-fascist protesters, sometimes called antifa. He also said the man being beaten may have been a member of the alt-right. 
   
   Hear what led up to the event 
   
   Letson was covering the event along with other Reveal staff members. In the video, he can be seen wearing his headphones, with his recording gear in a black satchel strapped across his body. 
   
   “Our editorial policy is clear: we are unbiased observers not participants,” said Reveal Editor in Chief Amy Pyle. “However, in reviewing the video, it is clear that Al did not take sides. Instead, he responded as any of us might if we saw another human in distress.” 
   
   Thousands of people had converged in downtown Berkeley Sunday in response to a planned right-wing rally dubbed “No to Marxism in America.” A huge police presence also flooded the streets to ward off violence between right- and left-wing groups. And barriers were erected around Martin Luther King Jr. Civic Center Park, where the rally was to have unfolded. 
   
   The right-wing organizers had announced yesterday that they were canceling their events, and very few of their supporters had shown up. However, there were reports of several arrests and scattered skirmishes throughout the morning and early afternoon. 
   
   Letson was at the Civic Center Park as the surrounding streets filled with left-wing groups, including members of the antifa, also known as the black bloc for their trademark black attire and face-covering masks and bandanas. 
   
   Letson recounted what happened next, a scene he also caught on video: Right-wing organizer Joey Gibson arrived at the park shortly after 1:30 p.m. He and a couple of his supporters were chased by what appeared to be antifa members, who began to throw things at him. 
   
   Joey Gibson, organizer of yesterday's cancelled Patriot Prayer rally, chased by #BerkeleyProtests demonstrators https://t.co/BkPqrJDnEw — Reveal (@reveal) August 27, 2017 
   
   In Letson’s video, law enforcement officers can be seen standing on the sidelines, a protest policing strategy criticized during the violent April “Battle of Berkeley” protests and in Charlottesville, Virginia, earlier this month. Gibson continues through a line of police. Other videos from the scene show him being handcuffed. 
   
   Meanwhile, Letson said, a man who appeared to be one of Gibson’s supporters was also chased by 20 to 30 antifa protesters, who began to kick and hit him with sticks. 
   
   Letson dove on top of the man, suffering a few collateral blows but no injuries. Tear gas was released, quickly dispersing the crowd. 
   
   Later, the man Letson protected reached out to him on social media. His name is Keith Campbell, 54, a President Donald Trump supporter and video blogger who was live streaming the rally on Sunday. He says antifa members know him from his conservative youtube channel Patriot Warrior Media – where he’s known as KPikklefield – and targeted him specifically. 
   
   “Someone pointed me out and called me by name and started running toward me,” he said. “Someone knocked my camera out of my hand and I was going to grab it and someone hit me over the head and I went down. I was sure they were going to kill me. I was thinking, ‘I hope it’s quick’ because it hurt.” 
   
   Campbell told Reveal he has no memory of Letson shielding him and only learned about it after seeing video of the attack. 
   
   “I wanted to reach out to Al because it was a direct, coordinated attack,” he added. “It’s incredible what he did.” 
   
   Campbell sustained bruised ribs and kidneys on Sunday, he said, but suffered no permanent damage. He said he has relocated out of state for the moment to avoid further attacks. 
   
   Jack Smith IV, a senior writer at Mic, recorded the incident from another angle. In it, Letson can be heard urging demonstrators to stop their attack. There’s a brief pause in the confrontation, then another fight breaks out between two protesters who had been watching nearby. 
   
   Someone dives on top of another guy being beaten by Antifa, begging them to stop, fleeing behind police lines. Intra-left blows exchanged. pic.twitter.com/bz2zFEB25j — Jack Smith IV (@JackSmithIV) August 27, 2017 
   
   Berkeley Police, who were in charge of the law enforcement response on Sunday, did not respond to a request for comment. 
   
   Media inquiries should be addressed to engagement reporter Byard Duncan, by email at bduncan@revealnews.org or on Twitter at @byardduncan. 
   
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target: – When journalist Al Letson saw a suspected alt-right protester being beaten by "antifa" supporters in Berkeley, Calif., on Sunday, he didn't stop to consider what the fallen man might think of him. Letson, who is black, simply wanted to save him. Running into the crowd, Letson jumped on top of the man in order to protect him. A series of videos posted to Twitter show Letson, in a red shirt, shielding the man's body and attempting to push the assailants away. "What came to me was that he was a human being, and I didn't want to see anybody die," Letson, host of podcast Reveal from the Center for Investigative Reporting, tells NPR. "In retrospect, it doesn't matter if he doesn't see my humanity, what matters to me is that I see his." Letson tells Slate that the unidentified protester had been with Joey Gibson of right-wing group Patriot Prayer during the mostly peaceful rally. But after Gibson began "antagonizing the black bloc," 20 to 30 others began chasing them. Gibson fled but his apparent companion "stumbled—or someone tripped him—and then four or five people surrounded him and began to kick and hit him," Letson says. When he noticed "a whole mass of people coming," Letson says he intervened in fear for the man's life. Though he was struck a few times, he'd do it all again, per Reveal. "I remember seeing the pictures of a young man being brutally beaten by these guys with poles [in Charlottesville], and when I saw that I thought, "Why didn't anybody step in?" he says.