MR MARTINI
General, all I'm trying to do is understand these procedures.  According to, let's call them the footsoldiers, the persons on the lower ground, the aware members of the cell, for example like Mr van Zyl, according to their evidence they understood the procedures to be that ultimately when they came up with a plan, for example, the blowing up of the Early Learning Centre or to eliminate Minister Omar, that plan after the first in-house was then going to be discussed between the Managing Director and the Chairman, which would have been yourself.  Is that a correct understanding of, for example by Mr van Zyl that that was how the procedure should operate?