ADV MEMANI
As the Chair pleases.
	The next incident is the incident involving Mtsabelo. I am told that it is 2.14, Mr Chairman. There is no version on how this incident occurred excepting Ngo's version, and all the objectors have denied any knowledge of the incident. However, Mr Ngo finds some corroboration from Mr Motsamai about the fact that the incident did take place. Mr Motsamai says:
"Mr Ngo does implicate me in this, but he is mistaken insofar as he says I tortured people. He was amongst the group of people who were torturing people and they passed them on to us for interviews".
So then this incident did occur and the only version we have about the incident is that of Ngo. Again, Mr Chairman, what I can say is that we cannot say that it must be found as a fact that all the people that he implicates were present. But we can find that some of the people he implicates must have been present.
	One has some form of corroboration of this incident from the fact that people like Warrant Officer ...[indistinct] who were in command in the area, deny knowledge of this incident and do not seem to have taken steps adequately to ensure that Ngo is correct or is not correct.
	Mr Chairman, you must remember that Mr Ngo's lifespan as a policeman was very short. He was a policeman only for about three months and I am sure that although people were arrested during those years, surely we will not find perhaps more than two big groups in three months being detained at one time. So that if steps had been taken seriously to go through the books, something would have been found that would have indicated that certain people were arrested during that period. What further ...[intervention]