MR WILLS
Yes, I understood his evidence in exactly the same way, but one must, one must look at it, let me rather say hypothetically that had Luthuli been in Mkehle's position at the time that Hlongwane had been recruited, things might have been quite different.  But if you've got a commander who clearly, the inference, on the inference of Luthuli's evidence, is allowing this type of what Luthuli referred to as ill discipline, then it's a completely different, completely different position.
	I submit that, all I can say is, it must be, it must be accepted, with respect, that Mkehle knew what they were doing and he didn't do anything about it.  And if that is the case, this instance, it wasn't that they were doing it to IFP people, in this case it is clear these people were here, represented, and there was no dispute about their political allegiances, there was no dispute about the fact that they were indeed spying, that evidence was left unchallenged, and in that context, with a bad leader, who would influence a person and would tacitly allow people to do things in a particular way, I submit that that cannot be held against Hlongwane.