MR DE KLERK
That's correct, Mr Chairman.  It is my opinion that after this whole incident, if he tried to lie and tried to tell a different story of what happened, he would have come to the Commission and say but Mr Ngobo was there, he was one of the perpetrators in this whole thing but he doesn't do that so it seems that in my opinion and this is the problem with these sort of questions, the Commission and anybody that thinks about it, must speculate and that's where the danger comes in.  We cannot sit here today and say definitely what Mr Ngobo said during the trial was the truth.  We know that criminal courts are not courts of truth, it's courts of process.