FERDINAND BARNARD
Mr Chairperson, this is what I believe today, that's what I meant.  At that stage I not necessarily believed that.  Their versions differed concerning instructions that they gave, but the thing is that we did not agree, myself and Verster.  They told me I was like the mafia, I was very staunch.  I told Calla Botha that it seems as if Joe Verster's worrying about what I'm going to say here, because now Verster is in a position, he has to go through a cross-examination and he doesn't know what I'm going to say, two weeks later I'm going to come to the front and this is what happened now, I received an instruction from him, and I wanted to pacify him.  I went to Calla Botha and told him: "Go to Verster and tell him I will not testify anything about Webster, I will tell this Commission to go to hell" and Calla Botha returned to me and he was very disgusted.  He said: "You were so staunch with this guy and he said you can do what you want to".  But then he probably thought about it because the next day, after there was an adjournment and they did not take me away, Mr Verster came to sit next to me and then he said to me: no he's received my message and thank you very much and he's got a lot of respect for me, etcetera, but I have to fuck up the General, and he told me to fuck up the General.  Immediately afterwards, after Gen Webb came to sit next to me I asked Gen Webb, after I reported to him I will say I did not get the instruction from him because I did not, I got it from Verster, and he told me that he never gave the instruction.  And that's how it happened.