W RIAAN BELLINGAN
Yes, just to take the story back a little bit, these two people, Maluleka and Barney were infiltrated by me, they were already there and then those days we did not have cell phones, we used this radio tracking device.  They would contact me and we arranged certain meetings in certain places.  They would come there and tell us what the situation was like.  In this particular case Jimmy and, I think, Eric was present as well, I am not sure, we usually met each other one by one, we, I, we spoke to him at the Holiday Inn in Bellville and he told us that there was a plan to attack a police van on a Monday morning.  He gave us more or less the area where it would take place and we told him that he should try and get back to us as soon as the information was confirmed.  He said that would be very difficult, because this group was particularly radical and they did not actually very lightly trust anybody else and I said it does not matter what happens on that morning, please just try and retain control of the operation.  It is very difficult to plan such an operation a week ahead of time.  I said keep the arms and the weapons and the van or the bus under your control and we would do whatever we could from our side.  Then Jimmy went back, yes, that is our discussion in the Holiday Inn with Liebenberg and myself.