CARL CASTELING BOTHA
If you just give me a moment to comment on that extract.  Mr Luitingh was a trustee of Mr Verster, so much so that they come from the Defence Force inner circle.  He has not got - he cannot discuss this with Mr Verster under oath.  Do you now understand why on the basis of what has been said now, I can go to Verster or Webb to discuss things if he under oath states that he as an inner circle member, would not have discussed it with Verster.  This is they psychosis of fear that was present concerning Mr Verster and his capability.