MR MADIKIZELA
Yes Mr Chairperson.  Mr Chairperson, throughout the cross-examination that I conducted it has transpired that more specifically with the incident at Willowvale that the applicant cannot say unequivocally who gave the instructions on that day to destroy property and to shoot but what I submit what he wants this Commission to find is to assume as he claims that that was a security branch operation.  To assume that, therefore, because all the other forces that were there had gone to assist the security branch.  The security branch's senior officers who were there and even those who remained here in Umtata are the ones who gave orders whilst he has admitted that he cannot say who gave orders when the bombing occurred, he was behind in the forest.
	Furthermore, it's also my submission that even regarding these other instances where people were tortured, assaulted and ill-treated, he cannot say that it's General so and so or so and so said I must assault so and so.  He specifically told this Committee that what he did to the people that he had encounters with was what he copied, was what he saw, that was what was being done to suspects by the members of the security branch.  In other words, nobody specifically said you must assault suspects, you must torture suspects, you must ill-treat suspects.  He says it himself that he did what he saw being done there, there were no specific orders and he keeps on all along to say he, as a junior officer, non-commissioned, he could not have signed a warrant either for arrest or detention.  We have no problem with that.  Nor can it be said that the gentlemen, the handful of them, the top management of the security branch that he had mentioned in his application are the ones who signed the warrants of arrest and detention because we are told that the only person or people who have powers to sign warrants of arrest or warrants of detentions are any members of the security branch, that is commissioned members.  Any commissioned member of the security branch could authorise that so and so be arrested, so and so be detained, it's not as if it was clear cut that only the top management of the security branch would authorise warrants of arrest and warrants of detentions.  Hence it's the submission of my clients that they did not know that when those warrants of arrests and detentions were signed and handed over to the applicant and others were attached to the investigative unit of the security branch.  Suspects that were arrested and later detained were thereafter subjected to the type of treatment, torture, assault that the applicant has described before this Committee, nor did they sanction that they be treated in that manner.  It is therefore my submission that the warrants of detention and arrest were issued to applicants did not authorise applicant to carry the deeds that he carried out.
	I'm further submitting, Chairperson, that the operation, the joint operation, that occurred at Willowvale, it's not clear to be honest.  I've been listening throughout the proceedings.  It's not clear, it cannot be clearly said that so and so was in command of this operation.  Can it be said that someone from Pretoria or someone from TDF or someone from security office branch was in charge of the operation?  That's all Mr Chairperson.