UNKNOWN
That is correct Mr Chairman.  And I also appear for Mr Lotz and I don't mind, I can call Mr Lotz, but I must mention that this will be a very good example of, that is one of the witnesses that will certainly, to call him before Nieuwoudt, there are certainly others who could then be called before Nieuwoudt.
	To call him before Nieuwoudt would be a complete, will lead to a lot of wasted time, for the simple reason all that Lotz will tell you is I didn't even know about the operation.