MS PATEL
There is no evidence that - I'm not sure whether that specific evidence was tendered at the trial court, I'm certainly not in a position to say whether the ages were in fact known.  However, the ages of the victims was in fact testified to at the trial and if one considers that the applicants were present at the farms they would have realised that these were old people that they were dealing with and so if one looks at the way in which they went about trying to achieve their alleged objective and the seriousness of the assaults and the time period for which these victims were in fact assaulted, surely there can be no basis upon which it was necessary for them to assault these old people in the manner in which they did in order to achieve their alleged political objective.