MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA
Thank you Chairperson.  Roelf Meyer, I would like to refer my comments to you.  You, in your submission, you make reference to the fact that all parties were involved in the negotiations and you frame your debate in a particular way which reflects a specific perspective suggesting that putting the blame of responsibility on the shoulders of the ANC and suggesting that the ANC should have trusted Gqozo's commitment to the process of negotiation.  I think that perspective ignores an important context which is that within the Ciskei itself there was a lot of heavy anti ANC culture which was reinforced, seems to have been EAST LONDON HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
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reinforced by the visible presence of the South African 
Defence Force secondments within the management of the Ciskean Government.  So I think that is a very important context to remember even though all these parties were involved in negotiations and the ANC should have, theoretically, trusted the commitments by that process and by Gqozo especially.  But what was happening on the ground, there were state of emergencies, there was a very anti-ANC culture, so those factors should also be considered, I think.
 The second comment I'd like to make is around your submission that the South African Government, the then South African Government made every effort to ensure a peaceful and free exercise of political rights in the Ciskei.  I am wondering whether the ideas, your ideas to achieve that peaceful and free expression of political rights was then reinforced or not by bringing on board of people like Major General Victor who used to be the head of the ANC/PAC desk in the headquarters, security branch headquarters, who was also in charge of Vlakplaas activity according to the dossier that we have of him, and in fact Dirk Coetzee who is supposed to have reportedly told by the dossier that Dirk Coetzee reported to Victor, now Victor was the Commissioner of Police at the time in Ciskei and he was seconded by the South African Government, I am wondering if those strategies, you know bringing somebody with that kind of background to the Ciskei whether that in fact assists your ideas, would have assisted your ideas of ensuring peaceful and free expression of political will within the Ciskei?  I am just wondering what the relationship between bringing a person with that kind of background, with the Vlakplaas 
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background like Victor to that situation in Ciskei, whether 
it helped in fact bring about peaceful change or whether in fact it achieved the opposite.  And what the South African Government's role in bringing that kind of mentality within the governance of Ciskei was.  Those are the comments that I would like to make.  
 The final comment is about your submission and how in fact it seems that the South African Government at the time remains blameless, totally blameless, and it's either the Ciskei Defence Force or the Ciskei Police or the ANC.  One of the documents that we have makes reference to the involvement of the South African Embassy in the planning of the deployment of forces around the march.  And generally the involvement of the South African Embassy in appointing former South African Defence personnel to the Ciskei to manage departments like Finance, the Army, the Police.  And I am really wondering what exactly was the role of the South African Government in maintaining a certain kind of mindsets within the Ciskean government and in fact in encouraging the anti-ANC thinking, or even in encouraging a certain kind of management of policing within the Ciskei.