UNKNOWN
May I place my position on record in the mean time Mr Chairman just to take up the time that is being used by my learned friend.  Mr Chairman we have no further evidence to present except if Mr Dirk Coetzee gives evidence, the situation changes radically because you will understand that Mr Coetzee is not implicated by these witnesses nor is Mr Danster, so we have a problem with their presence here, but be that as it may I'm not taking any point on that.  But if Mr Dirk Coetzee is to be called in evidence, then obviously there would have to be cross-examination and I can tell you now that there will be at least two witnesses which we would have to call in rebuttal of his evidence.  So I just want to place that on record.  As far as the application is concerned properly as placed in our submission, this is the evidence which we wish to place before you.