CHAIRPERSON
No I don't think that we want to know that.  I don't think Mr Visser wants to know the names of the people.  And Mr Visser what is the purpose of your question, is the word "kick and beat and bang against" are you saying that those words ...(indistinct) verba were used by Mr du Plessis or did he merely say don't assault?  You know if that is the distinction which you are drawing in your mind then perhaps it's a matter of words.