MARTINHUS DAVID RAS
Chairperson, that is difficult, that is how I remember it, that is how I wrote it down.  I must concede that those were not the usual words that I heard Mr De Kock use under any other circumstances.  Under these circumstances, from my recollection of what was said, I must concede that it is possible that somebody else may have used the specific word, but I recalled that he said it to me and that is why I gave the version according to that.