MR HATTINGH
Mr Chairman, I did not understand this hearing to be set down Black Cat incidents.  There's just a mentioning of amnesty applications for a certain amount of people.  We have the amnesty applications in the incidents of Mr Gushu for six murders.  That's what we have.  The fact that the Black Cats feature prominently, that is true, but the whole hearing, as far as we know, there was no indication that this was set down only for Black Cat incidents.  If that was the position then we only need to go to the matter of Mr Msibi.  There was no indication that Mr Msibi was in any way connected to the Black Cats.  So, why then would his incident then form part of this hearing?