TESTIMONY_GIVER:
  I see, yes.   Yes, I think - and I can't obviously say that this is what would have happened for all defence lawyers, but when one thinks about the days of Nazi rule in Germany, if somebody knocked on somebody's door and if they opened the door and there was an SS policeman standing outside and said, "I want so and so", I think the whole world would sympathise with those who believed in justice and were against the savagery of fascism, and apartheid for that matter, would sympathise with the person who said, "Look, I am sorry, this person is not here", even if that person was hiding under the bed or hiding in the roof.  So, likewise, I believe that when a person who was arrested or charged and in custody needed a lawyer to defend him- or herself in court, many of our lawyers, who were political activists and opponents of apartheid would have been the first to stand up and many of them did stand up and actually suffered as well.  I think Mr Ntsebeza here, who is amongst your Commissioners, felt that harsh whip of the apartheid justice, when he was carted out of his office, while working, and dumped in a 