MR KNOETZE
Because I want to say to you that the persons - Chief Lent Makoma, if you turn the page to page 7
"Major-General Mitigaga and Piet van der Riet, Transkei Defence Force were not present at the meeting."
And I put it to you on behalf of General van der Westhuizen that that is how he recollects it.  I also want to refer you to Annexure A, Colonel Rusty van Rooyen and the minutes which he attached to his statement.  On the first page he says:
"The report with regard to deliberations at Mesikaba, between Ron Reid-Daly, General Sebe, Chief Ensebe ..."
That must be Namba.
"... Brigadier van der Westhuizen, Colonel van Rooyen and Major van der Merwe."
I also put it to you on behalf of Brigadier van der Merwe, on page 4 of his document in paragraph 7 he says who were present and he is also does not mention those people.