FERDINAND BARNARD
I understand.  And so it happened that we had one of these cocaine parties where Mr Righ Verster was present, and he wanted to try this stuff as well, because it made everybody so friendly.
	Then I said to him "If you try this stuff, you won't stop".  He had already had a few drinks, so did I, and naturally we wanted to impress the ladies there, and he got onto cocaine.  That is why I recall it so specifically, because on that particular evening, he and I were chatting about work, and we were quite high and we stumbled onto the topic of Mr Lubowski.  That is when he disclosed his entire South-West involvement to me.
	Before he became involved with DCC internally, he said that he and Price and a certain Clive, who I later also met at DCC, who was a former counter-intelligence spy, specifically performed work regarding Anton Lubowski.  They had tried to recruit him, but he was not recruitable.
	Then I said to him "but this man was allegedly an informer" and he said "no, the CCB caused all the shit, and we made him an informer".   If he was an informer, he is an informer posthumously.  That status was allocated to him posthumously.
	And then I laughed, because we agreed that after his death, he was made an informer, and then I said "but how is that possible, because I have read things in the paper about bank accounts and what not", and he said "listen, if you are not an agent, we will make you one and it doesn't really matter who you are".
	At a certain stage, he mentioned to me that Mr Marina Chiavelli, the former millionaire had passed away and he said that Chiavelli was also one who was supporting the ANC and giving them money.
	It was a joint National and Military Intelligence operation to break him financially.  He said "you saw what happened to him", and then he said "Douw Steyn from Auto & General was next on the list".  That was the discussion that took place regarding Mr Lubowski as an agent.