MR SHANE
That is what I am getting to Mr Chairman, that is what I am getting to.  Well, it is important in this context Mr Chairman, the fact that he didn't get killed, is purely luck on his part, and we don't know how many bullets were fired at him, but what you must consider Mr Chairman, is that the question is when did the applicant get shot?  Was it as a result of him shooting at the white policemen or was he shot before he shot at the white policemen?