MR WAGENER
Chairman, why I referred to that incident briefly, in that matter Gen van der Merwe said:  "I" van der Merwe, "gave the orders."   He said that all along, he gave the authority.  He did not discuss it with the Commissioner of Police.  What he did say is he can't remember, but he would have discussed the matter with certain other colleagues in the intelligence community and if so, it would have been on the probability, Dr Barnard of National Intelligence and Mr van Heerden of Foreign Affairs, but he never said they gave the authority.  The question there was, the way I understand it, is the test is slightly different in terms of Section 20(2)(b) than 20(2)(a) because in terms of 20(2)(b) a member of the Security Forces must also show that he was acting within the course and scope of his duties and his mandate, or that he objectively believed that he was doing so and that was the issue there, by way of cross-examination, which I may add if I'm allowed to, based on speculation by the lawyers of the victims ...(end of tape) Committee in that matter can reach the correct decision.  So all I'm saying is, if I'm confronted with an argument, I try to pre-empt that by mentioning the Lesotho Raid and maybe also as a matter of interest Mr Chairman, it was suggested to Gen van der Merwe that that Lesotho Raid was in fact a revenge attack regarding this very incident that we're here today for, because it took place four days later on the night of 19 to 20 December 1985, and that was also part of the "disputes" (in quotes) if I may say that, because it was a real dispute, but the Committee found that, or ruled that they must be satisfied in the end, in terms of Section 20(1), exactly as your position here today and that's why they decided to have all those people subpoenaed and that's the only reason why I refer to that matter, but of course, I accept what Adv Bosman says is that the facts are not exactly the same, but to me Mr Chairman the principle is the same.