MR PHOSA
No, he doesn't have to be a liar in that regard, if the word is ambiguous and he knows it's ambiguous I would like his support on that sphere.  He doesn't have to be a liar at all times to concede the fact, I'm not always going to get extracts - admissions of lies from him.  I'm just trying to get from and I mean by the way Mr Chairman, to try and convince you later about this because I may have to do that but I ...[intervention]