PIK BOTHA
Mr Chairperson, if I had any wish to get rid of Mr Chris Hani, I would simply not have stopped the events on that day.  I would not have called him to an hotel, pleaded with him and with Cyril.  I cannot speak for other departments.  The fact of the matter is all my documents are either with the UN, contained in speeches, or in files.  The Commission is welcome to call them up.  
 Ciskei was an embarrassment to me.  I cannot see for the life of me how anyone can allege it was an ally.  I just don't see why and how, particularly after we started the negotiations.  I quoted at length here to indicate that full re-incorporating was agreed to.  Full re-incorporating.  There was never any doubt in my mind that the sooner re-incorporating could take place the better.
 I will gladly make available reports by Mr Jimmy van der Merwe I think, and a man called Dr Pretorius  [indistinct]  who was also fired by Brigadier Gqozo.  I'll ask him to give the reports.  
 It was an impossible situation but the same happened in Transkei, the same happened in Venda, to a lesser extent in Bophuthatswana.  I said earlier today that the country has not yet learned what happened to certain hundreds of billions.  People were promoted who should not have been promoted but that is a different matter.  I'm answering the question.   There is not even the slightest possibility that I could have rejoiced in the continued independence of any of these states.  I made public statements which I will give the Commission in which I said all three military dictators must go.  The sooner the better.  All three of them, because there was no way and I invite you now to consult with the Auditor General.
 There was just no way to get any picture of what went on with the finances in these three states.  Just no way and the moment you tried to touch them they said, look you're a white guy from a white government, don't touch us, we're independent and this is a just an old form of baaskap and apartheid.  
 It was a very difficult position to be in, very very difficult indeed.  I just want to assure the Commission.  I know of events but I do not know the truth about those events.  I still don't know exactly what the facts are surrounding the killing of Charles Sebe.  There was an attempt here to invade the Ciskei, remember the late Mr Lenox Sebe asking me to bring President de Klerk here to Cabin.  They showed us weapons and arms here near a government building, which they discovered.
 I was aware that Mr George Matanzima had the Salute Scouts Commander trying to train people, for what, I don't know.  I was Minister of Foreign Affairs having one struggle, that was to try and get the budget's approve of these four states.  That was to try to stop them from going to Austria to buy buses whose doors open on the wrong side of the road.  I, if you, that assurance here today, that was my struggle.  Mr Bantu Holomisa, General Bantu Holomisa once said to me that, he said to me you don't know what's going on in your Security Forces.  Maybe I didn't.
 I can only tell you what the Department of Foreign Affairs' policy was.
 I did my best with the Development Bank of Southern Africa.  Please call in a man called Dr Deon Richter.  He will tell you of the hours we spent together to implement adjustment programmes.  It was clear to me that TBVC states had to be incorporated.  The sooner the better.  I propagated it.  As a matter of fact the ANC said no.  I prepared the Bill, Mr Chairperson, which I wanted to take to Parliament.  It was stopped.  They said Jo don't go, you're not going to deal unilaterally with this, you'll wait for incorporation until the election because the ANC didn't want, at that stage, to get rid of Bantu Holomisa or Rhamashan in Venda.  These are the facts.
 I wanted to get rid of all of them.  I can truthfully say this and I said it publicly.