AZHAR CACHALIA
What I am saying, Advocate, is that, and I was pleased to hear that Mr Claassen elevated you to the bench, but be that as it may, what I am saying Advocate Sigodi is that that particular meeting was not considered to be sufficiently important by the late Mr Dastile, the chairperson, he says they normally do that.  It is not something that we need to concern ourselves with.  So I'm not relying on that.
	What I am relying on, what I'm saying is not that particular meeting was the, I am saying that if, it was for them to say, without me putting it to them, to say that at the particular meeting in the morning or five days previously or when we bought the guns, at some point in time, we, and the probabilities are that that is in fact the position, that some point in time, because they started buying guns, at some point in time they had decided that they must at best for the ANC teach them a lesson, at worst for them, kill them off to make an absolute state, but I'm saying that's the kind of thing that one would have anticipated that they would come with here and say, you know, we sat down, because everything in the evidence indicates that they had prepared themselves to come and shoot as the Chairperson has said.  They would not have armed themselves if they did not intend to use it.  They came there, they intended to use it, but they have never said when they used the arms, for Mr ...(intervention)