MR PHOSA
Now we've been wasting so much in seconds that I don't remember what answer that was.  All I had wanted to ask, and I'm sure if you - if the Committee says: "that's the answer".  All I want to know is, is the answer according to him, that President Botha - and I deliberately chose him, was aware of the fact that there were elimination's?  In other words he attended those ...[inaudible] of elimination's, he attended meetings where it was said there had to be elimination's, is that his evidence?