EUGENE DE KOCK
Yes, upon various occasions, Mr Mbotoli flew up to Pretoria, we covered the costs of his travel and his accommodation.  On a regular basis, he provided information and it appeared from this information that he received very good feedback from the Transkei and on a certain day, I can't recall the exact date, he informed me, that is Mr Mbotoli, that a Colonel Duli wanted to speak to me urgently.  Previously I had heard of this Colonel Duli, however, I had never met him.  Nonetheless I agreed to meet with him and this meeting was arranged at the Jan Smuts Holiday Inn where Colonel Duli and another coloured man was introduced to me by Mr Mbotoli.  At the same time approximately, I contacted Commandant Nieuwoudt and made enquiries about Colonel Duli and Mr Nieuwoudt, who was involved in the Transkei at that stage, I asked him about Colonel Duli and he told me that Duli was on our side and this on our side, indicates in that language that he was favourably inclined towards the government and governmental forces and that it was safe to negotiate with him and that is what I did.  When I saw Colonel Duli during this meeting, there was a coloured man with him as his bodyguard.  Colonel Duli told me that he had a shopping list and a shopping list within that context, military speaking, would be a list of weaponry or military equipment which would be required for some or other task, and he told me that he required military weapons for a coup d'etat in the Transkei.  The purpose of this coup d'etat was once again to topple Gen Holomisa and then to appoint Kaiser Matanzima.  This shopping list or list included assault weapons, handgrenades, machine guns, gun grenades, ammunition for all these weapons, 60 mm mortars, 82 mm mortars and mortar bombs of various calibre, anti-tank weapons with launchers and missiles, demolition chargers and radio contact equipment.  I would just like to say that initially he did not have the radio equipment on his list and I made enquiries as to whether or not he would require it and he said that it would be acceptable if I could obtain this equipment.  This weaponry and equipment was obtained in December 1992, I see that the date has been indicated as 1990, but I can't recall with certainty what the exact date was.