CHAIRPERSON
Yes, there's no fine line you know, if one takes regard to the Norgaard principles, they are quite clear on proportionality and if you put a, what he said was if you put a car bomb in an empty car park and there's nobody around and it goes off, that's disproportional to any ...(indistinct), because it's a bomb.  He goes very strict on proportionality does Norgaard, and we all know that this Act is to a large extent, his principles played a part in its compilation.  But we also know that in our application, I say our, the Committees generally, particularly when one gets dealing with car bomb situations and there's been various matters, Church Street Bombing and various other bombings, haven't strictly gone to Norgaard with regard to the question of proportionality otherwise none of them would have got off first base ...(indistinct) car bomb ...(intervention)