<UNKNOWN>
But in respect of this issue, the applicants have grave difficulties.  The difficulties, as I have said, 
are firstly to identify who was involved and, secondly, to get those people to assist the applicants.  Now the 
application of Mr Currin which he did discuss with you in chambers which hasn't been made yet, but the 
request to subpoena certain witnesses would include witnesses for instance who were involved in the State 
Security Council.
	One of those persons as far as my knowledge goes was a secretary of the State Security Council in 
1985.  If that object is attained those witnesses will give evidence before this Committee, but those 
witnesses do not want to support the applicants and they do not want to help the applicants in their 
applications.	That is the first point that I want to make.  
	The second point I want to make in answer to your question is that Captain van Jaarsveld was 
involved with the development of the counter-revolutionary strategy right from its inception.  As far as I 
understood that was round about 1980 and the development of the strategy took place until approximately 
1985 when it was implemented.
	Captain van Jaarsveld was intricately involved in this whole process throughout the time.  He was 
also involved as the representative of the Security Police on the State Security Council for a long period of 
time and he was therefore, over a long period of time, intricately involved with the system.
	Captain van Jaarsveld also completed a Masters' Degree as far as I know in Political Science, 
which dealt with,