FERDINAND BARNARD
Mr Chairperson, yes, for example after the Athlone bomb was planted and the incident took place, I discussed this with Calla Botha because then I became aware through a discussion with van Zyl, that Mr Botha was also involved in it.  He did not tell me that himself, I do not know if I did not see him during that time, because we had different things to do and our movements were different, but at a certain opportunity I heard a story from van Zyl concerning the Athlone bomb and I took it up with Mr Botha and he had no problem in admitting that he was involved in it, because he is an explosives expert.
	He did however, deny very strongly and said that what Mr van Zyl told me, and I will put it in his words, "is a load of shit".  He said it was not the truth.   He said that person is very arrogant, he personally worked with the explosives, there were no nails placed around it, he personally inspected the bomb, he is an explosives expert and he made a comment saying "you know, I do not even know why Slang involved me in it", it was placed on ice and he said "a chimpanzee can be taught to press that button".  That is what he said to me.
	I asked him out about it, and he said under no circumstances, or the order came from Gen Webb for the planting of the bomb, but the instructions were not to kill or injure anybody.  That is why they had to make use of a remote control so that they could detonate the bomb once the people had left the building.
	That made me doubt many things, because then I did not know why van Zyl gave his version of the story.  The same with the "Apie Project".  I also discussed it with Mr Botha and then I told him about the Five Phase plan.  Mr Botha came to me and said that that was not what Slang van Zyl told him.  Slang van Zyl told him that they are going to give him this baboon to hang up and he had no idea why he had to do it.  "It looked like just fucking around", that is what he said.  He did not know why he was hanging this thing up, and that is how he conveyed it to me.
	He was quite upset about it that Mr van Zyl conveyed it in such a way to me.