RUSSELL ALLY
So there's - just a little bit about these gangs.  Can you just tell us about these gangs, because one of the, one of the things that's becoming clearer and clearer to us, in many hearings in many different parts of the country, is the way in which gangs, which start out as criminal gangs, get caught up in the political conflicts.
 In Ermelo we saw that there was a gang which was called the Black Cats and later got involved in the political conflict taking place there between UDF or ANC and the Inkata Freedom Party.
 These gangs that your husband was trying to bring together to talk peace, were they linked in any way to any of the political struggles, battles that were taking place, siding with any political organisation or grouping?