CHAIRPERSON
But Mr Machitje, this is what I don't understand, had it not been for Thokoza or what occurred in Thokoza, lost children would be in exactly the same position because of apartheid, not so?  That's why I'm trying to find out how is what happened in Thokoza related to the problems of the children today?  Did it make it worse, the fact that their parents haven't got money can be traced back to the apartheid regime, not so?