MR MEYER
Chairperson thank you very much.  I think this is an important issue that is being raised by Reverend Finca.  I would first of all like to state categorically that a perception or a submission that might have been made to the Commission in that regard, namely that the previous South African government failed in its duty because Black lives were not dear to them, I reject totally that suggestion, that submission or that perception.  That is absolutely incorrect.  I think proof is there as it was submitted here this morning by Premier Kriel and Mr Radue that they were actually sent, a delegation of the South African Government was specifically sent to Bisho on that very day by the then State President Mr de Klerk to ensure that the demonstration can be carried out peacefully.  It was for that reason that Premier Kriel went to see Mr Gqozo and ensured that he allows the demonstration to take place in a peaceful way.  And with all due respect as it is being proved by Mr Radue's fax which was sent just before one o'clock that day, it was actually accepted by all present at that point in time that the demonstration would be carried out peacefully, and that there was actually no reason, at that very moment, to further intervene or interfere.
 The question overall of how we handled the situation as far as the TBVC states are concerned I think is also a relevant one Commissioner.  The point in that regard I would say  is  by  September  of  '92  we had a total break-up of
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negotiations and by the 7th of September of '92, if one just looks back a little bit at the perspective of how matters developed, one must recall that by the 16th of May of that year Codesa II collapsed, so multi-party negotiations came to an end.  In spite of that, however, the work of Working Group 4, which is also indicated in the submission, was confirmed by the parties.  In fact I think one can say that Working Group 4's report was the only one that was actually approved by Codesa II before it collapsed on the work of the other working groups.  In other words although the parties could not reach agreement on the work of the other working groups, including the question of progress with the interim constitution, at least there was agreement between all the parties on the work of Working Group 4, and that included the South African Government, the ANC and all relevant parties.  
 What I am saying by that is that there was confirmation by all parties, including the South African Government, that the TBVC states must be reincorporated into South Africa and it was a question through which means it should take place, and the obvious answer to that was to get agreement on an interim constitution, to ensure the reincorporation.  Now after May of '92 for almost a year there were no multi-party negotiations, in other words progress towards the interim constitution could not take place, but between June and September of '92 the relevant parties, including specifically the South African Government and the ANC, were on a bilateral basis involved in ironing out the stumbling blocks impeding the negotiations as it was then perceived.  And that was the main, or the crux of the whole objective at that stage, to get negotiations back on track so that we can EAST LONDON HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
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make progress towards an interim constitution.  
 It was therefore, with due respect Chairperson, to my mind not the appropriate moment then to find other ways to deal with the TBVC states, but to get negotiations back on track with a view to come to an agreement, as quickly as possible, also on the question of reincorporation of the TBVC states.  And that applied to all four of them, Transkei, Venda, Bophuthatswana and Ciskei and that was the view held by the South African Government.  And with all due respect, although Ciskei might have been a pain in the neck, both to the South African Government and to the ANC there was not a reason for any deviation from that agreed policy position, that was the agreement between the South African Government, the ANC and all other relevant parties at that point of time.