MR HATTINGH
That may be so Mr Chairman, but De Kock wasn't aware of that.  De Kock only met Nieuwoudt when they went to a hotel or a bar or somewhere after the coup had failed.  He bumped into Nieuwoudt there and from the discussion that he had with him, it appeared that Nieuwoudt had some knowledge about it, but the fact of the matter is Mr Chairman, there were no negotiations, prior negotiations, between De Kock and Nieuwoudt.