CHAIRPERSON
Mr Papier, one understands that, but what my brother is saying to you is that perhaps you know, I mean to speak of fraudulent basis, it is a very technical term.  I mean fraud is an crime which consists of a number of elements and your argument pre-supposes that the applicant's conduct met all the essential elements of a crime of fraud and that is not necessarily so.	Perhaps what you wanted to say to the witness was that when you went there, you purported to be what you were not.