RAYNER MARIA MORINGER
Yes, I think our first contact actually happened in I think it must have been 1988, through then Gen Charles Sebe.  As a consequence of this, we were planning a joint operation where I was involved, where Charles Sebe and his people were involved and where the Transkei Military Intelligence was involved, which objective was to overthrow Lennox Sebe.  During this period, and I don't know off hand how long this whole operation, planning took place, I was frequently in the Transkei, we spent time there, we were training people there and during all this period, the person I was dealing with, was Colonel, then Major, Mzwaiba.  So we established call it a personal trust, but definitely a working relationship, which is based on trust.