JOE MAMASELA
Definitely Mr Chairman, that is my analysis.
MR DU PLESSIS(?): Mr Chairman, before we go ahead, may I just make the point that in respect of the evidence of Mr Mamasela, and that's for your own and Miss Hartle's interest, obviously you know that evidence has been given about the Kwandabele 9 matter about which Mr Mamasela has testified now about Captain Hechter's involvement and I just want place on record that obviously the version of Mr Mamasela is disputed.  I also act for Captain Hechter and I just want to state that while I'm here, that that version is disputed.