UNKNOWN
At no stage, Chairperson.  I was at Vlakplaas. 
 I was a junior there.  And as I have said earlier, I 
received instructions - when I received instructions I did 
not doubt these instructions and the way in which Eugene de 
Kock had contact with the police and security head offices, 
I had no doubt that these instructions came right from the 
top, via him.  When I say from the top I mean senior 
generals and officers in the security police.  And I didn't 
call them into question, the instructions.