MR SIBANYONI
I'm saying, in one of the hearings Eugene de Kock put it very harshly, he was saying when these ANC cadres were captured they had to choose between two things, either to cooperate with the police, or to be eliminated and then he gave the impression that - he also said, in one of the applications that he ... they had not time to take these people to court, because it was useless, you wouldn't get any people to be witnesses and the like and then the only thing which will save a captured person was to agree to work with the police.