MR KOOPEDI
Yes, I agree, it would have been a worse situation.  Now this aspect of having obtained the order and giving the order, I believe it's the crux of this application and I believe, my submission is that there would be two ways to look at this aspect.  The first is, was Mr Mkosana and his troops being shot at?  If the answer to that is yes, if this Committee can find that they were being shot at, I believe it's the end of the question in that he would have relayed the truth to his commanders who then gave him an order, but if not, if the finding is that these people were not being shot at, the question would then be taken further to be:  was it reasonable for him as a trained and a very senior soldier at that stage, was it reasonable for him to assume that they were being shot at?  The second part ...(intervention)