TESTIMONY_GIVER:
  No, I cannot remember.  I will only need to refer to their birth certificates.  I think Sithembiso was born in 1969.  And the other is Thobokile.  Thobokile died.  And then there are twins who came after Zenzele.  Zenzele died and now there is Nelson.  And there's Gugu who is still alive.  And then there is Zenzele's child, and Sithembiso's child.  He gave birth to this child during the time he was still doing these part-time jobs, but the mother brought this child to me.  This child is six years old.