JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW
The Chairperson, Gen Joubert, very briefly sketched the Plan, Plan Katzen.  I didn't know what the name was, it didn't have a name at the time, I don't think.
	It dealt with the Eastern Cape and to stabilise and to normalise the Eastern Cape.  As I said, there were no documents, no documents were handed out, it was only much later that I would learn that it was actually called Project Katzen.
	During the meeting, the Chairperson explained that the plan was to establish a unified Xhosa State and the way in which this would be done, was to liberate Charles Sebe from the Middeldrift prison in Ciskei and he would then be used to dethrone the then President of the Ciskei, Charles Sebe.  President Sebe was seen as a stumbling block in the way of a unified Xhosa nation or state.
	The Chairperson then also explained that the South African Police, in the person of myself, would be responsible for providing information relating to the liberation of Charles Sebe.  I objected and said that South African Police had very good operation of the Transkei and Ciskei and that this would be to the detriment of that kind of cooperation.  It wasn't possible to foresee how Charles Sebe would react after such a long period in detention.
	My objection was made light of and it was said it was an instruction from the Commissioner of the South African Police, that Brigadier Schoon, represented the Commissioner and that he would confirm this instruction, which Brigadier Schoon in fact did.
	I was given the task to collect information to facilitate the implementation of the plan by other components of the Security Forces.  After the meeting and during August 1986, I directed a document, I wrote a letter rather to the Security Headquarters in which I once again voiced my concerns and my objections, but I received no written reaction.
	The reason why I objected apart from the fact that it infringed on the very good cooperation there was between our side and the Ciskei and Transkei Police, was this, I was privileged to have people under me, who actually went to school in the Transkei and Ciskei and my history and knowledge of the area, told me that the Plan was not feasible and I also believed that if you gave States their independence with (indistinct) things like salaries and government cars, you couldn't take it away without causing conflict.  That is in brief, what my objections were based on.
	I dealt with the progress made with the planning.  Obviously I gave various members under my control, orders relating to the gathering of specific information, but I never made known the specific reason for which it was needed.  In respect of liberating Charles Sebe from prison, I requested members under my command to obtain information about the specific cell where he was detained, and we arranged that photographs be taken of the Maximum Security Prison at Middeldrift where he was being detained.
	I gave these instructions to then Warrant Officer Hattingh and Fouche.  He has since died.  If I remember correctly, they brought me a sketch, Warrant Officer Fouche brought me a sketch and said this is the cell where he is being detained and from Mr Hattingh, I also received the photographs.
	I then also had talks with Joe Verster from Special Forces, South African Defence Force and I conveyed -