MR DERBY-LEWIS
That is what he was.  He was a, as far as I was concerned, he was an outcast and he still is.  He is a member, he is actually, Mr Chairman, he is an elected member of the National Party now.  He has jumped from the National Party to the HNP to the CP to the Afrikaner Volks Unie and from there he has gone back to the National Party.  So, I think that gives an indication of the integrity of the man.