TESTIMONY_GIVER:
  Ja.  In fact I would like to say - I am aware that you asked me to first, you know, relate my activities before ... (inaudible) ... get the point.  My second point I would like to say that, you know, my story is basically two-phased, I mean in that I was a participant against the apartheid system itself, and I never regretted my involvement, you know, in politics against apartheid.  And I was - I think I was one of the dedicated people in South Africa, and no one of course during my participation in South Africa - no one who knew me at that point in town, you know, could even doubt my participation.  And during that time I had the blessing of having the contact of people like Mrs Winnie Mandela when she was still in Brandfort.  And I was also one of the people who used to like welcome, you know, renowned politicians at that point in time in Bloemfontein, people like Terror Lekoto, when they came to Bloemfontein.  I was one of the people who met them.  Also Molefe.  You name them, the list is endless.  And eventually of course, when - I mean eventually I joined the underground structure of the ANC.  I was an underground operative, even though most of my friends inside the country didn't know that.  They only learnt about that after I had left the country, and they were shocked to hear that.  Of course that was the rules of the game at that point in time.  And unfortunately at some stage - I think 1984 - when I was at UNISA(?), a student at UNISA, and where of course I was also assisted by Winnie Mandela to gain admission at that institution.  I was working for the ANC still at that time, and I happened to go to Maseru, or Lesotho, on the organisation's nomination, and on my way back from Lesotho now, I don't know for some strange reason, I was confronted by the South African Police at the border.  I don't know whether they knew that I was there or they were just - you know, it was just a coincidence for them to come across me.  I don't know about that one.  For sure they'll be able to explain that if, you know, approached.  But the people who confronted me - one of them I know very well, it was a policeman by the name of Marapo.  I knew him very well and I still know him very well even today.  And then one of them was a white policeman whom I think it was Gert Prinsloo because I have had some dealing with him before.  I mean I was detained on various occasions.  But he left Bloemfontein for quite a while, so maybe when he came back I was not sure whether it was, you know, the same policeman, because in fact the policeman that I knew very well at that time was Andrew Prinsloo more than Gert.  So I was, you know, detained, handcuffed, and they wanted to know what I was doing in Maseru, or in Lesotho.  And I just told them that I had gone there to see a girlfriend of mine, and unfortunately they did not buy that story.  And they ended up detaining me, and they had took certain things from me.  One of them was my passport, because I had gone to Lesotho legally anyway, and my diary, and a train ticket.  At that time there was a train from Bloemfontein to Lesotho, even though it went as far as - wherever, the Maseru border.  So I had a return ticket which was, you know, in my possession, and I think some photos that I had with me.  Those are definitely the things that I can remember that I had at that time.  Very shortly they said to me that they knew that I was on information, which of course I denied at that time, and they decided that, you know, they knew - they also said that they knew that I was sent by Mrs Mandela, which I also denied, and of course I was not sent by Mrs Mandela to Lesotho.  And they said to me they were also aware that even though I was at varsity at that time my mission was not necessarily to study, but I was continuing furthering the ANC missions.  And they had decided, as South African representatives of the Government, that I am undesirable and I am not needed in South Africa, and they said I will have to go back to my comrades in Lesotho.  But then I denied any knowledge of comrades in Lesotho.  After some while - after, you know, some time, you know, they tortured me and all that, and they put me in a car.  It was a white Fairlane, I still remember, and they drove, you know, to the river bank.  I think the river is called is called Caledon, if I am right, but they took me to the river that separates South Africa and Lesotho.  And when we got there Marapo pulled me out of the car and they wanted me to jump into the water.  Well, at that time I could not swim.  I know how to swim now, but at that time I did not know.  So they said I should, you know, get into the water, you know, and go across.  Well, I refused because I was not quite sure how deep the level of the water was at that time.  The person whom I will refer to as Prinsloo at this point, Gert Prinsloo, took out a gun.  In fact both of them had guns, Marapo and Prinsloo.  Prinsloo pointed that gun to me and he said he was going to count up to 10, and if I was not in the water by that time then he was going to fire.  Then he started counting.  I still resisted.  So I think when he was about at count seven or so, and the tone was going up, you know, because he was saying one, two, and then when he gets to six he was saying eight, seven, you know, the tone went up.  Marapo pushed me into the water, and I also ended up getting into that water, and then I went across.  As I am saying I was not quite sure how deep the water was.  Fortunately I managed to get to the middle of the water, and at that time the water was more or less, you know, at my chest level, and I managed to go across.  I was not stubborn as such, but I indicated to them that they were just wasting their time because I am coming back.  So I left the river, I went back to Lesotho.  I contacted congress in Lesotho, ANC Congress, and then I related the story.  I made it a point - I made it clear to them that I wanted to come back home.  I wrote a letter, which I believe, you know, was given to the comrades inside the country, and I said they should organise that for me.  And I was prepared also to take a public platform exposing the system, you know, the police, you know, what they did to me.   And one of the letters, if I still remember very well, was supposed to have reached Mrs Mandela.  Then I was told, I don't know, that my mother went to see Mrs Mandela for the first time because she was really worried, and I was more or less known, you know, in the country, and, you know, my abduction spread like wildfire, because even at UNISA itself I am told people were very worried and they thought I was dead.  Because even after reaching, you know, exile, I could not communicate and tell people that okay, I was safe and all that - you get the point.  So they only knew that I had disappeared, they system had abducted me, and they were not quite sure what happened to me.  However, I made it a point after some time that at least my mother was informed, and I am told, as I said, she went to see Mrs Mandela, and they apparently tried to make efforts for my return.  And after a while - we discussed this with comrades in exile, and they indicated to me that it was going to be dangerous for me to come back because it was not - I mean in fact people were not sure what was going to happen to me if I had to come back at that point in time.  And it was felt that - I mean even though I could expose the system, but eventually maybe they would - you know, I would come back and maybe this time they would kill me.  And on the basis of the advice which was given to me then I decided to stay in exile, reluctantly of course, because I really wanted to come back and expose, you know, the police.  So when I was in Lesotho - well, I did a lot of things for the movement, and then eventually of course I went to various countries until I reached Angola.  I underwent military training.  I did quite a number of whatever assignments in the organisation, and I have no doubt that I was trusted in the organisation, because some of the assignments that I did were very sensitive assignments.  And then eventually during my stay in exile I - of course I went to different countries, and then eventually I found myself in Zimbabwe.  And when I was in Zimbabwe I had another mission which I was given by the organisation, and I think some time in 1978 - 1988 or so, there was some sort of - I don't know what to call that, but basically many comrades were arrested in the organisation for being suspected of working for the system, and some of them were basically people that we knew to be renowned and respected commanders in the organisation.  And some of us in the lower levels started asking ourselves questions that, "I mean if these people are really enemy agents how did they find their way to the top, to that level?"  And then we started, you know, thinking and debating this thing amongst ourselves.  It means there is something wrong there at the top.  And at that time unfortunately some of the people that I was supposed to report to, whom I am not necessarily going to name now - you get the point - we sometimes used to feel that there was something wrong with them.  And unfortunately some of them - according to the information that I had some of them I also, you know, I felt very much uncomfortable.  And then I decided - it was at that time that I decided that no, I am not going to take this assignment any more.  Instead I opted to go to school.  And one of the people that I approached - in fact the only people that I approached about that was Comrade Chris Hani, because he was more or less connected to the assignment that I was given by the movement.  And then I intimated to him when he was in Zimbabwe that I am not continuing with the assignment, instead I wanted to go to school.  Comrade Chris said, "Okay, I have no problem with that if you say you want to go to school.  However, the procedure is that at least we have to write a letter to the MHQ," that is the military headquarters in Lusaka, "just informing them as a formality.  So I know already, but at least we have to write a letter to the MHQ," which of course I did.  I wrote a letter, I gave it to the deputy-chief rep in Lusaka - in Zimbabwe.  That was Comrade Mhlope.  And then, okay, he promised me that the letter would reach Lusaka, and then I think after a week or so he told me that the letter was sent to Lusaka.  After some time I did not get a response from, you know, the headquarters in Lusaka.  I wrote another letter to Lusaka again via the same chief rep's office.  There was no response.  And at that time I think I was, you know, beginning to be a little bit fidgety because, you know, I wanted to enrol during that year at the University of Zimbabwe or any other college.  Then I approached the chief rep's office, indicating to them that in the absence of a response from Lusaka I wanted to start processing my whatever - my application for schooling.  And Comrade Madizela indicated to me that no, he was not going to have anything to do with this.  Then I waited, and then after a while - I don't know if, you know, I am taking too long, you wanted me to stop.