CHAIRPERSON
Yes, but you see, I don't mean to tramp on anybody's toes, I don't mean to be disrespectful to anybody's beliefs, but if a traditional leader has to advised somebody that he needs to take the heart or kidney or whatever of another human being and he must struggle and this must be done when he's alive, if you remove the heart of somebody who is alive, he'll die.  Now that person giving the advice, surely knows that someone is going to die because of that?