UNKNOWN
No, I'm not saying that Mr Chairman, what I'm saying is that on the facts in totality, on the evidence in totality, this Committee will not be able to make this finding that it was the intention of this whole project to kill the people.  And yes, I submit - I will make further submissions then, rather later on, with reference to the victims' Heads.
	The next is the object or objective of the act.  What I submit here is that in each of these instances - page 22, as far as each of these instances is concerned, it cannot be said that the object or objective of the act was unrelated to the political situation in the country, the context of violence, the context in which the CCB functioned.  As far as the bombing of the Early Learning Centre is concerned, I submit that Van Zyl obviously obtained the information in the first instance, he gave that to his superiors, being Burger and Basson, and that information was in turn then given to Verster.
	Now it was said in evidence that, and by Van Zyl as well, that he did not obtain all the information which subsequently appeared on record regarding the Early Learning Centre.  So obviously someone obtained something further and Burger and Basson are saying is that they knew that Verster had his own channels to obtain further information or to check out information with other sectors of the security community and that as far as they were concerned, the information did not only come from Van Zyl and from his informers in the Western Cape, but it was dealt with correctly in terms of the procedure which the CCB created, and one must now remember - and may I just interrupt here to say that as far as Basson is concerned Burger had no information sources of his own, he was not allowed to speak to anyone to check out information.  Basson had to do it in terms of the contact he had with Derrick.  Now he - and that was the prescription by the CCB, he had to check it out with the information officer, Derrick and then it would come back to him, confirmed or not confirmed, and they would act on that basis, and obviously that would be taken up with Verster.  And the impression was that he had his own sources.  
	And as far as the Early Learning Centre is concerned this is one of the examples where Van Zyl gave certain information and when the instructions came back from Verster and Webb, there was further information.  So I submit that the applicants I represent had all reason to believe that they were acting on valid information.