MR VISSER
Mr Chairman, the position is simply this.  We have no access to official files, we don't appear for the State. I don't know which State reference is made to, the present or the past, but the fact is we appear for no state, we appear for individuals. We have applied through the normal channels to headquarters in Pretoria.  My attorney has.  He has been presented with one file, which we have got here, which we made available to my learned friend.  He had it in his possession.  He looked through it. It doesn't take more than half-an-hour to look through that file. He had it.  That is the only file we have got. That file was given to us on the basis of Mr Wagenaar retaining custody of that file. In fact, my first question was, can we make the file available to the Committee, and there is some sort of a problem even with that. We haven't got access to these files, Mr Chairman, we have no right to the access to these files.  We would prefer it if you would make enquiries as to whether there are other files of Mr Ngo, because we would dearly like to say the contents of those files ourselves.  We have not been retaining anything or keeping it away from my learned friend. It is a falsehood to make such an allegation.