BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA
I am saying he was present, I wouldn't be with him whereas I was under his - I wouldn't be there with him and join the other people, coming all the way from Vlakplaas under his jurisdiction and join the other people, without being instructed by them.  I was not under Nortje and the others here in Durban, I was under Mr de Kock.  Therefore everything - he was my commander, he's the one who was supposed to tell me that join these people or just stay.  If he was asleep, what would I be doing there transporting the people without getting an instruction from him?