JOHANNES HENDRIK VAN DYK
If I said that I was present when he spoke to Gerber, I would be speculating.  I know he gave an order to somebody.  Later in discussion it came out that it could possibly have been Gerber, that is possible, but I can't say for sure that I remember that he told Gerber to take the man away, but I was present until the time when the person was loaded onto the bakkie.  But then I didn't know whether he was still alive.