MR HATTINGH
Obviously my response to that would be yes, it would be relevant.  I may just add that also the killing of Advice Gwala is absolutely not related to Black Cat activity.  So, that's also another incident which does form part of this hearing.  But be that as it may, what I would submit is that to enable us to test the motives of this applicant, you cannot just keep to only the single incident, you have to look at a wider perspective.  We've heard the background as well.  The background is not the incident itself, but we've heard it.  For the same token, there's no way that one can gauge the modus operandi of this applicant if ... (intervention)