JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR
Well first of all I was not at the scene on that side.  As I have explained I saw Mr Kasrils running, not going, not into the stadium but running along the fence, and beckoning people to follow him, and then he disappeared.  What happened outside, I don't know Ma'am whether you've visited the scene, but then you'll know what I am talking about.  I was right here on the border, the Ciskei/South African border, and once they disappeared or Mr Kasrils disappeared or whoever ran through on the other side I couldn't see them.  I have no knowledge what really, as I have explained here I heard shots being fired.