GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT
It was so Mr Chairperson, but I would like to explain in this regard.  I've already explained where I'd gained practical experience in the case of Doctor Barney Pityana who had also been placed under house arrest.  There were several informers who watched his premises and all that they could do was to tell us that he had received visitors.  And we never used them because at that stage where two or more had consulted with him he was committing an offence, so the informers weren't physically present in the house and that was a factor that one had to keep in mind in order to prove one's case.
	And then he would just go into the next room and in this way he would shield this type of meeting in terms of which he would have been accused then.  So that was the practical sort of problem in terms of informers.