MR MARTINI
Right.  Just one more question which I had a similar difficulty as Mr Lax in understanding is, Mr Barnard - just let me understand this discussion, Mr Barnard alleges that Mr van Zyl had told him that he planted 4 kilograms or 4 pounds, I recall kilograms, but let's leave it at the number 4, on this bomb and that according to Mr Barnard, he then discussed this with you, in other words he told you about this discussion which Mr van Zyl had with him.  Now do you recall such a discussion, I mean the discussion where Mr Barnard said to you: "Hey, Mr van Zyl says you wanted to put 4 kilograms, he put 4 kilograms of nails on this bomb in order to ensure people were killed"?  Do you recall that discussion?