RAYNER MARIA MORINGER
I was fully aware that any kidnapping is an unlawful act.  However, my attitude at the time was in order to establish, keep the status quo on the political side, kidnapping might be the only means of doing, of achieving it.  The other thing was that if I, it was at that time when I got involved, made quite clear that Mr Mbotoli has to be eliminated.  I think I could have sat back and said okay, fine, you don't need me for that and Mr Mbotoli would have been eliminated one way or the other.  My involvement was actually to prevent this, to still maintain the status quo in the Transkei, but also the kidnapping was the only viable alternative to Mr Mbotoli's call it, assassination.