MR DE JAGER
Captain Jerry Fourie, and Major Kallie Steyn with Sergeant Tobie van Rensburg.  And the humiliation like in 33, quite true.  It could be possible.  I can't verify it in specific terms  And I'm sure that - it's strange to me that he specifically from all these people who interrogated him, whilst we call one by names, he remembered my name only, so I would think that he picked that up in the Harms Commission, because Andy Taylor and Jerry Fourie was the main persons there.  I was more on the background as Dirk Coetzee.  And for sure we didn't refer to one another as Dirk Coetzee and Jerry Fourie, we said Jerry and Andy and Dirk and Struiker.  Words like that were used.