CHAIRPERSON
Often it is, even policemen in the applicant's position, it's often not the easiest of things to formulate as lawyers would formulate them and that's why often these things are left for argument.  I mean, if the evidence constitutes an offence, it does, if it doesn't, it doesn't.  I mean you know it's a matter of fact.  There's the evidence.  We have to decide whether there's an offence.  Mr Rheeder will address us.  You'll address us.  Ms Patel will address us and we'll decide the matter.  I don't know whether whatever this witness is going to say is going to assist us very much in that regard.  We are all lawyers.