MR MAPOMA
Yes, I think that is in line with my argument, Chairperson, actually because I'm saying the consequences of what happened are highly disproportionate to the minimum force as he has described it.  It cannot be said that these people died as a result of minimum force in the circumstances.
	Another issue Chairperson I would address, is the question of proportionality.  We are dealing here with the applicants who were soldiers, armed, shooting at defenceless people, civilians for that matter, in what has been declared throughout South Africa to be a peaceful protest.  It must be noted, Chairperson, that the ANC as SACP Alliance, during that period, has been indulging in mass actions around the country and there has never been a situation where those mass actions, where the MK has been reported to have gone to attack people through what is called the marches, through those marches and even in Ciskei in particular, South African part known as Ciskei then, there were marches here.  In fact there was a march which was conducted in August that year, which did not get into Ciskei.  It was a peaceful march as well.  There was nothing which showed that armed MK was there to challenge the CDF then.  So I'm saying - the upshot of my argument is that it was unreasonable even for that intelligence of their's, to expect that MK would come and launch war in the area known as Ciskei then.  It's an unreasonable explanation to warrant the action that they did and especially given the fact that there was no war, it was a self-declared war actually, by the applicants and the Ciskei troops only, otherwise it was well reported that this was a march which was led by Clergy for that matter, the peace keeping force was there as well, of South Africa.  So I think that as well, Chairperson, ought to be taken into account by the Committee.  So in the circumstances it was highly disproportionate of Ciskei Defence Force to give live ammunition and to shoot at people in the circumstances of that nature.