MR MALAN
Ja, I'm not disputing that.  You are saying there was nego..., you said earlier there was negotiations at Kempton Park, you had all these attacks, you were asked how do you feel about the people that were dead, that got killed, and you said, "It happens, if it didn't happen, we would not have had the democracy".  Now my question is simply, do you believe that, or, on looking back, would we not have had democracy without the attack on the Wesselsbron Supermarket?  Was this necessary, not whether it was an order, I'm asking you to evaluate the fact, not to defend the order, let's accept for the moment that that order and policy was in place?