MR VISSER
No, it's obvious Mr Chairman, that we're not going to finish.  We'll have to obtain a record anyway.  I'm going to step off these points and leave it for argument on the record after we've obtained it, Mr Chairman, because it's quite, my submission to you - and I don't want to enter into an argument now, he never made that qualification which is now relied upon by my learned friend Mr Stander but I want to go forward.