MR GORDHAN
Mr Botha, I also put - and that's the second point Chairperson after which I finish, the second point is the issue of cooperation doesn't really arise here.  Well for two reasons, the one is you can never expect your enemy to cooperate with you but the second and more important one in this context is as Mr Lax pointed out all the information connected with Vula was public domain information soon after the arrest of the people on the 12th July.  So the issue of cooperation never really arose.  Was the real issue one of breaking my morale and subjugating one to your will and so on?