TESTIMONY_GIVER:
  The Attorney-General's office couldn't get access to - they couldn't access Joe Mamasela, he was very evasive, and I had met with him in '93, December.  We became on a very good footing again, and I convinced him to open up and come forward and just meet with the guys, and then decide for himself about the future, because I can assure him that he will not be able to make peace with his past until such time as the truth comes out.  When I was approached then by the Commission I did set up a meeting.  It took place in my house, and did Joe come, and from there onwards they started working independently of myself.  I also assisted the Commission in getting access to Matthew Mabisera, one of the three labourers on the farm, who was an ex so-called Rhodesian freedom fighter.  There were three based on the farm.  And he also did not want to speak to the investigation team, special investigation team of Jan D'Oliveira.  I took them to Matthew's house on two occasions, and introduced - and convinced him to work with the team, which he did eventually.