UNKNOWN
That's correct.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	The position as far as this is concerned I make the point that as far as the requirement that it was committed in the course of the conflict of the past is concerned, I do not think that one should even argue that, I think that that at least is common cause, that there was conflict in the country during that period and that's 1999(sic) period and that one accept that as given.  The fact or the question would be whether they were entitled in view of that conflict, to do what they have done, but that I will deal with later.
	The second leg there would be whether they had a political motive, etcetera.  Now the point is made by the representatives for the victims, and very strongly done, that the applicants were doing what they did for money, for gain, that they were furthering their careers and they didn't have any political motive or very little political motive.
	Now I respectfully submit that this was never put to them.  All three my clients dealt with this very aspect in their evidence.  If I can point out page 1851 of the record and further, as far as Burger is concerned, he deals with the fact that he grew up as an Afrikaner boy, a member of the National Party, later supporting the white government and protecting the sovereignty of the Afrikaner and the State.  Now same goes for - without going into all the detail, I can just give the page numbers from 2169 and further Basson deals with this and in the same vein it is dealt with by Maree from page 2520 and further. 
	Now I submit that perhaps this submission by my learned friends for the victims shows how far the people of this country are still apart when it comes to understanding each other and the motives which had driven the different sections of the population in the past, to say that people who state that they had an Afrikaner background, they were supporters of the apartheid regime, let's call it like that, because that's the fashion, it was an illegal government as far as the victims were concerned, governing the country, a government for the minority.  If people say that the victims did not have a political motive in preserving that government and that dispensation ...(intervention)