CHAIRPERSON
No, sorry, just before you leave that point.  I don't know whether or not, I have certainly not determined that yet, but I mean I don't know whether Mr Swarts is telling the truth or not telling the truth in his affidavit which was attested to by Mr Dreyer, but on the assumption that Mr Dreyer - Mr Swarts is not telling the truth, Mr Dreyer - Mr Dreyer, if he had read this affidavit at the time when he attested, would have known that Mr Swarts was not telling the truth.