CHAIRPERSON
We have heard from the people who were there, I think what we were eagerly waiting for, are the minutes and someone to you know, to prove the minutes.  Because you will understand that once they were handed in, but there has been an objection, it is a document so far, which purports to be the minutes, so once there is an issue, then it is incumbent upon the applicant to prove those  minutes, you do understand that?  Mr Berger, that is the position of the victims, is that right?