CHAIRPERSON
Ja, you see that's the point I was trying to grapple with, because, well one must bear in mind that Mr Visser is first, I mean he's also an applicant himself, he's applying for amnesty.   If we have to hear his evidence, we'll hear it, but normally we're not very keen to hear somebody who is himself an applicant in the case, if that can be avoided, but I'm not saying that that would be one of the reasons why he shouldn't, but what I'm saying is, you want to have Mr Visser now on the premise that, well...(tape ends)
	...to shelve Mr Visser, I'm just thinking aloud, if we were to shelve Mr Visser and then call Mr Clark, and then possibly Mr Clark does not deny these things, where perhaps you think he may, you may find no need to call Mr Visser.