ULRICH SCHELHASE
There were two presentations.  The first presentation was in 1985, late '85, I am not positive, but that happened in Guguletu at the Faseke Building where the then Minister of Defence General Malan and some other generals and police and I don't know whether the Minister of Police at the time was there, it was actually an embarrassment, and I can still remember that General Malan was very unhappy about the way that the violence vis a vis reward system was working in the Peninsula.
 And then the military decided to present, I think it was a few months or a year after that, I am not sure, '86, to make another presentation and this presentation was then made within the McEwan context, with the strategical context of counter-revolution.  Then the police had contributed on the safety and security level.  I have contributed on the more economic, welfare, social level.  The military did it on their levels, so it was sensible to the recipients, General Malan, and he supported it.  And he said, well he's very glad that he can see that there's some sort of systemic, there's some order in this whole approach to the counter-revolution in the Western Cape.  So I was involved there in terms of presentations, yes.