SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ
I've gone on, please don't interrupt me, I'm trying to be co-operative with you.  I've gone on to sketch a scenario of how he got arrested, I'm saying that if he had made contact with Capt Botha as he claims, 4 to 6 weeks before the 7th of July and he gave them the safe-houses and he gave them information about me, Siphiwe Nyanda, Ronnie Kasrils, Pravien Gordhan, I'm saying we would have been under surveillance, I'm saying a major meeting took place on the 20th of May which was a subject of Pretoria Minute, I'm saying that the action would have been taken, it would have identified, they would have photographed me entering the Brickfield Road Flat or the Knoll.  They would have photographed my car, they would have followed me where I was going in Johannesburg and Cape Town and they would have picked up a whole network.  They would have easily smashed Vula.  So I'm saying if he was an informant, that sequence doesn't fit.  The third aspect that I'm bringing in is I'm saying that Capt Botha and Gen Steyn deny that Charles and Mbuso were tortured, that is one bit of affidavit which you said you would not challenge by Ninela who says he was present when Charles was assaulted.