RONNIE KASRILS
A great deal, Advocate Sandi.  Minister Modisi's whole approach is that the defence force must be fully transformed, must become representative of our people.  It must be a force that defends and protects our people, our territory, our sovereignty and co-operates in peace with our neighbours.  To change the mind-set of soldiers can't be done overnight and bear in mind that we have a mixture at present, MK, APLA, TBVC former SADF and we have now taken in some former members of the KwaZulu structures.  It is eight elements.
 We are moulding them into one common South African National Defence Force so a real home for all of them, in the process the whole ethos must change.  They have to be educated for democracy, for civil rights, for international law on conflict and we have a civic education work group which isn't the military experts.  We have academics, we have people from civil society, we have got parliamentarians together with military personnel, working out a whole new syllabus, a whole new approach.  That is one element and obviously the educational factor is very important indeed.