MR VISSER
With respect, Mr Chairman, everybody wasn't present.  That is not the evidence, with great respect.  the evidence of the applicants was that certain people were in that room, it is now being put that other people may have seen, may not have seen, but it's not the evidence that everybody and with that I include the askaris because that seems to be everybody and we don't even know who everybody was that were on the farm.  That's not a fair question.