MR MALAN
And then just one other question.  On the evidence it's seems as if these youths were apprehended somewhere between two and three o'clock in the afternoon and that they were being kept and assaulted and tortured to somewhere between seven and eight, in evidence before us.  That's on average about five hours, could be less but on all evidence it seems not be less than about three to four hours.  All the time of which they were assaulted according to the evidence.  Now why did this continue for so long?