FERDINAND BARNARD
Mr Bizos, they never put it to me that directly in the beginning.  At a later stage I became aware from discussions with Calla Botha, that things were submitted to the Chairperson.  I wasn't completely involved regarding the length of the line and where it ran to, I knew I had to go through my Co-ordinator and through Joe Verster.  What happened on the higher levels, I thought that there would be submissions but no-one told me specifically that everything had to be approved by the General.  As I have told you, to me it was that Joe Verster was the CCB, if he said to kill a man, then I would kill him.