CHAIRPERSON
You know we have heard a lot of - firstly, to say you're correct, there were people who turned their backs on the ANC, but on different grounds.  We have heard how askaris were turned to work for the Security Forces, but we also were told about the amount of pressure exerted on them to work as askaris for the Security Forces.  And I think what Mr Malindi is driving at is that with these three it's merely an approach, to these four it's merely an approach and everything just works hunky-dory.