FERDINAND BARNARD
No Sir.  I was surprised.  Joe Verster and I do not sit, agree with many things and over a period of time, especially after they incriminated me during the post mortem inquest of Dr Webster two weeks before the beginning of the proceedings here, after three years I received a message from Joe Verster in the prison via one of my visitors, a former Koevoet member, that he sends his regards, he has got a lot of respect for me and the way in which I handled myself. And it was very surprising that first of all he made contact in such a way.  And then I met Calla Botha and I felt sorry for Joe in his evidence because there is something in me that does not want to make me sell other people out and want me to make people go to prison.  And I thought to make it a bit easier for him I told Mr Botha to give Mr Verster a message that I did not want him to testify here and keep this thing
in the back of his mind that they he is taking a certain direction with his evidence and later I come and say no Verster gave the instruction.  That's how I felt about it at that stage.  Then I sent the message that I will not answer questions concerning Webster.  I will tell this Commission to go to hell.  And that was my words.  But then Mr Botha came back to me and he was a bit unhappy about Joe and he said you must do what you want you.  Then I left it.  And I said I am not going to turn around now and that did not force me to continue, I would have done it as stated before.  	The next day, that was still during the first sitting there was a tea-break, or lunch break where I was not immediately removed from the hall, then Joe Verster walked in, I was sitting here with the guards guarding me, then he came to sit next to me, and he asked me "how are you?".  I said "no alright, and you?". And he said "fine".  And he said things looked difficult and he said good luck, and he told me then he received my message, he thought about it and that's how I experienced it, he received my message and I said well this is my attitude, I am not going to tell them that you gave the instruction.  I will not testify about Webster at all.  This Commission must go to hell.  And that's how I felt about it.  Then he thought that he could manipulate me further and he patted me on the back and he told me to "fuck up the General".  And at that stage the people walked in.  I was surprised.  I did not know what to say to him.  I did not answer him, I just looked at him like that.  But I did mention it to General Webb because he sat next to me.  And I spoke to him and I said to him "General I never received an instruction from you concerning the Webster case", and I also tested him and he said "but I never gave that instruction", and that was his attitude.  He was very shocked, and I said that I will not say it because I got the instruction from Joe.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR H DU PLESSIS