GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT
No, I only explained to De Kock in what these 
people were involved and their roles in the operation and that they 
were involved in the Goniwe matter.  As I said I can't remember 
exactly whether I at that stage when De Kock was there, whether I 
mentioned the fraud matter, that they were involved in the fraud or 
whether I mentioned that before De Kock arrived.  I can't remember 
that.