AZHAR CACHALIA
That's precisely what I'm saying.  If the applicants had come here and said that, you know, we sat down, which are the probabilities, we sat down and we thought that this ANC is becoming too prescriptive and deciding all things and they don't want this Committee to act, and we decided we're going to teach them a lesson, we have a meeting with them, we're going to today put them in their place, arm yourselves and we'll confront them in a violent manner.  Which is probably what in fact happened.  That they had come prepared and it is quite clear from everything that we have heard here that they've, they have armed themselves, they have borne arms, they prepared themselves on that particular day, they came to the ground, they were armed, and they shot at the people and killed the ANC people and injured them.  It was a preconceived idea and the probabilities are that they made that particular decision.
	And if they were honest to this Committee and they came with that particular approach that this is what we have decided, and we carried out, and we regret what we did, it was wrong to do, having regard to sir I am saying that I would have had no case to oppose their application.  They in fact even today are trying to mislead and pull the wool over the eyes of the Committee in regard to what happened and they have not, they have not complied with the position of full and honest disclosures.  I am saying the probabilities are very clear, I don't need to go into the details of he discrepancies and the probability, I'm saying that this is, sorry my apologies. Thank you sir.  
	I am saying finally that in relation to the accused, sorry the applicants, the questions put at the end of both the evidence of the last two applicants by both, by Advocate Sigodi and Mr Lax, in fact brought out the improbabilities of their case and I don't wish to just repeat it you are have it on record, I am saying that in fact the improbabilities are so severe that there is in fact no full disclosure.  What I am saying ...(intervention)