MR SWART
Yes.  What is more I think the arguments which have been made before in the fact that these were unfortunate innocent bystanders, in fact, goes against the first applicant in that regard in that there was a disregard for the lives of these people.  Tough luck, they just happened to be at the wrong time.  In fact, his evidence was at a stage in cross-examination that if he went to any premises and there were people there bad luck for them and, as far as I am concerned, that type of disregard must be seen as absolutely, it is tantamount to malice or ill-will towards that person, towards his right to life.