FERDINAND BARNARD
I didn't want to speak the truth with regard to any of the projects in which I had been involved.  It was clear to me that I functioned in a completely different way and that I was also handled as such by the CCB.  Because I have had liaison with Calla Botha and Slang van Zyl, they told me on a regular basis what was going on in their cell structure, what the pro forma was according to the formulation of matters, and it was a very rigid system.
	My experience, however, was different.  If I were to make amnesty applications with regard to this, it would mean that I would be turning against those in the system, such as Joe Verster and others, and I wouldn't have any backup.  I would be standing completely alone, if they came to testify and they testified against me.  All they would really have to do is to deny everything, and then I would be in hot water, left all by myself.
	So I told lies to the Harms Commission and I lied during the post mortem inquest into the death of David Webster and at a certain stage, Joe Verster, after the appointment of the Harms Commission, sent a message to me via Lafras Luitingh and Luitingh told me that Joe had said that my attitude had to be tested, and that if my attitude appeared to be suitable, Joe Verster would request a meeting with me.
	My attitude was favourable, I decided to speak to him, and we had a meeting a few days later in the Braamfontein Protea Hotel.  Upon my arrival in the hotel, it was only Mr Verster who was in the particular room number which was given to me.  We spoke for a while.  He asked me, I could see that he was uncomfortable, perhaps he thought that I was bugging him or that he was bugging me.  Things weren't that easy, but ultimately the discussion boiled down to Mr Verster asking me how much detail the South African Police had available, during my interrogation, how much they knew about the CCB, the activities of the CCB, what was already disclosed, what I had disclosed.
	I made certain admissions to him in this regard, which were correct, according to my summation of it.  Then Mr Verster said to me, he called me closer, because we stood some distance away from each other in the room, he called me closer and turned up the volume of the television in the room, he took a document out of his briefcase, he called me over and indicated to me with his finger on the document, without speaking.  I read the document, but I cannot recall specifically whether it was an affidavit, but I suspect according to my recollection, that it had to do with a document that Mr Verster would present to the Harms Commission and the passage that he pointed out to me was about his denial of any involvement or knowledge with regard to the Webster incident.  I nodded my head and then he said to me, that is my attitude, and then I left subsequently.