CHRISTOFFEL PIERRE VAN DER WESTHUIZEN
Chairperson, it was in July after we returned from Pretoria.  It was myself and Commandant du Plessis.  We went to the Transkei where we spoke with George Matanzima, Lent Makoba, Namba Sebe and Ben Namoi, and the plan then was sketched, presented to them in general terms.  General Matanzima said that it was urgent, the Ciskei were prepared to take the initiative with the implication, they were all in agreement that Lennox Sebe had to be replaced or removed and Namba Sebe indicated that he would lead the XWB.  That was before Charles Sebe had been liberated from prison.