TESTIMONY_GIVER:
  Okay.   I wanted to taper my account to fit in with the Truth and Reconciliation Act, to start from 1960, my political life goes long before that.   So, I have started as early as 1960 and told you that we were ordered, if detained, not to make statements.   I mean everybody said, if you are picked up, don't say a word, right.   And we had merely to give our names and addresses, but nothing else.   That soon changed with people like Stephanie Kemp, but it changed a little earlier, when we were faced with the torture, Indress Naidoo had been strung up in a bag, and beaten out of his mind and he had been shot in his arm.  And then we knew they were very serious.   So, people hadn't started to die by then in detention, but we knew that they were going to break us.  So, we altered it.  Say what needs to be said, no more.  Right.   Supposing they wanted to know were you at that meeting, confirm it, you know, don't keep saying, no, because then your body gets it.   Now, the evidence of Stephanie Kemp and her successful prosecution of her tortures left us in little doubt that force, violence, was going to be used.   Violet Wynberg, she is late now, spoke of her detention, and was one of the horrors of our life at that time, to see Violet, this elderly person, with her shoes covered with her swollen feet ... (inaudible) ...