MR DONAN
With respect the crime is a - sorry torture is a crime in our country and we have elected to forbid it.  I submit that it will be relevant when the Committee comes to decide whether or not to grant amnesty to torturers, to take into account the fact that what they are indemnifying is an international crime which they may or may not have jurisdiction to indemnify.  They cannot indemnify an international crime, they can indemnify the crime in South Africa, so that if Mr Benzien ever leaves this country, and torture is an international crime, wherever he goes he may be prosecuted and he may be sued.  The leading case in regard to the latter is the case of Pena Arila(?) in the United States' Court of Appeals which deals with the subject, the effective customary law and how people in that position can be sued anywhere else in the world, so that whether - though Mr Benzien may be indemnified here Mr Yengeni and Mr Kruser could take him on anywhere else in the world if he ever stepped over these boundaries ...(intervention)