MARTINUS RAS
Chairperson, we worked on a national basis, covertly and overtly.  Overtly it meant that a white group leader along with some of the ascaris, who were former ANC or PAC members, would go to various parts of the country where the former members were used to identity ANC and PAC members who were in the country and such persons would then be arrested with the objective of using such persons for evidence in court against other former members as well as the recruitment of certain of such persons which meant that after the time, they would come and work at Vlakplaas.  The covert aspect involved cross-border operations where such members, such ANC members or PAC members were killed in cross-border situations.