UNKNOWN
Mr Chair thank you for the question.  I heard that accusation made by Mr Gqozo.  Nobody had to convince Mr Gqozo of a threat by the ANC.  He was convinced way beyond any information that we had to our availability because he had high level sources, a company called Multi Media Services which he contracted for a lot of money because he wasn't happy with the information that we provided him, it was too low level.  He was convinced about the threat against him, and I never had to convince him about that.  He wanted me to get better information about that.  He wasn't satisfied with our production, that's why he chased Mr Swanepoel away and it was only integration that saved me.  The thing that made Mr Gqozo unhappy, and I am not ashamed to say it today, I did undermine him in 1993.  I leaked a lot of information to the press and there's a lot of journalists who can testify to that.  Whenever I felt that there were pressures exerted on the Defence Force to do things that were not correct, which were not in step with the democratisation process, you can go and ask Andrew Trench, Patrick Goodenough, even - I can't remember her surname now, Louise Flanagan, I told them about the formation of self-defence units for the ADM. I gave them evidence.  The agreement between us was that they would publish my name in the articles so that I would be protected from being a suspect.  I was then tasked by Brigadier Gqozo to investigate the origin of this leak fortunately.  I later EAST LONDON HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
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admitted this and there was a newspaper article about this, and I am sure Brigadier Gqozo must hate me for that because I wasn't willing in 1993 to do anything that is not in line with the democratisation process.  
 And he wanted us to establish, the Defence Force to establish something like an Inkatha, or something similar to it.  They wanted to train young boys to protect the headmen because the headmen were being attacked.  Myself and General van der Bank strategised for a long time how to go around this because we know once we train people like that, once we issue them with weapons it's going to become an uncontrollable situation and the fingers are going to be pointing back at us.  Then we agreed to go back to him with a recommendation that we establish Ciskei Defence Force Auxiliary Services, "Hulpdiens", that is a legal system in terms of the Defence Act, you can have such a system, but I was still not happy with the (...indistinct), so before the first people finished their training I called (...indistinct) Patrick Goodenough and Andrew Trench and I told them and they made a big write-up about it.  It's available if you want to do a bit of research.