MR VISSER
Yes.  So what you are really saying is what the author is saying at the top of page 15, it's all a question of proportionality isn't it?  You used the word "some civilians".
	In other words what I understand you to say Mr Ismail, please stop me if I am wrong, is that if the "overwhelming" target is military then the loss of, or the casualties of some innocent bystanders is acceptable in normal war situations.  Now I don't disagree with you about that let me make it quite plain. 
	The question here as to proportionality, and incidentally the Act in section 23 specifies proportionality as one of the elements which the Committee will have to consider in determining whether the act or omission or offence was one which was committed with a political objective, but that bye-the-bye, it's a question of proportionality.  And let's get to that, let's get to that.
	You stated in Exhibit A1 at page 58, perhaps it's not you, A1, perhaps it's the ANC, I think - ja, it's the ANC submission, page 58 ...(intervention)