TESTIMONY_GIVER:
  I don't know how to put this.  That was a place and people were scared, maybe because of the farmers.  There wasn't an organization, but there was a youth organization that was to be started to be called Mbongeni Cultural Organization.  I don't know whether was he involved.  He was a curious person.  He used to ask me questions.  He asked me, "What is it, this Mbongeni Cultural Club all about?", and I said to him, "It's a South African youth organization".  I want to say he didn't have a card - organizational card - at that time.  He was enquiring about that youth club.  I must say he challenged everything.  