MS PATEL
Just one further point.  If I can refer you to page 60 of the bundle, that's the application of Mr du Plessis.  Mr du Plessis states that - if we start at page 59 sorry, the paragraph starts at 59, he states that at various times prior to this specific incident there were discussions held around the possible elimination of the Cradock 4, do you have knowledge of that?