MR VISSER
So it's on that assumption, certainly.  Thank you.  You say just thereafter that you then contacted the D'Oliviera team and you were able to meet Capt Holmes and you also obtained Vlakplaas records, and then you said you went to see them, and I just want to ask you who precisely are you referring to when you say
"I went to see them"
did you refer to Vlakplaas, or to the D'Oliviera team?