MR VISSER
Yes.  And you see, Taylor himself in his amnesty application, does not say specifically that he gave you the - page 4 of bundle 1, Chairperson, that he gave you the instruction, but what he says is, at the last paragraph at page 4
"At a later stage an askari, Jimmy Mbane, informed us that he had arranged that the Kubheka woman would be brought to us at the old Railway Police shooting range near Winkelspruit."
Now what I want to put to you on this application as it stands, and unfortunately Mr Taylor is not here to explain, he does not mention anything about Botha giving instructions.  I'm just pointing that out to you.  And I want to suggest to you that you in fact told de Jongh that Taylor was the one who gave the instructions for Kubheka to be brought to Battery Beach.