FERDINAND BARNARD
Mr Chairperson, any other, or the only contact that I had with him was when I was detained under Section 29, and the whole Terrorist Section, I was the only person detained.  At a certain stage during my detention, they confronted me with Donald Aitchison.  It was Col Jumbo Smit who confronted me.  He came in with the Investigating Officers and Jaap Joubert from the Detective Branch in South Africa, and the investigating team was involved with my interrogation.
	They came into my cell and they pushed him into my cell.  I cannot recall how long I was detained by then.  I looked at him and I said "no", then he mentioned my name.  I think he said Andrew or something.  I then pretended not to know him, but it was not very convincing.  They locked him up in the cell with me for about two hours, but I thought maybe the cell was a bit rigged, they can, they took me out for interrogation, they can then place a bug in the cell.  The more he started talking to me, the more I denied him, and then I started swearing and then he said "yes, he knew they were taping the conversation".  I confronted him there, and I think he was also detained there while they did this investigation.
	All the cells are soundproof, so you have no contact with anybody else.  I then saw him again after he returned back to South-West Africa Namibia, I was released after three and a half months.  When he was released from South West Africa, from prison, he came back to his girlfriend in Bedfordview and when I found out that he was released under Section 29, I did another thing that I shouldn't.  I felt sorry for him and I did not want to leave him alone.  I went to go and see him, or I went to see his girlfriend, and I assisted her financially.
	I encouraged her and we built up some trust between us.  I spoke to her over the phone, I went to visit her at the Bedford Centre, I took a girlfriend with me.  I gave her some money and found out what her complaints were, and I tried to do what I could for them in the system.  At a later stage he was released and then he contacted me on the number that I gave her.  I went to see him also at the Bedford Centre where we drank a cup of coffee.  We had a discussion, I asked him about the Lubowski murder and he told me, he did not want to admit to me that he murdered Lubowski, but he described others to me.  I asked him for descriptions, I wanted him to ID the people who were using us and I told him "we were both locked up" and the people whom he described to me, were not anybody that I could really place or that I knew or who had contact with him and sent him around.
	We spoke about money that was left in a hotel room for him, in a suitcase, under a bed.  More or less the same as Chaps Maree said, it was all James Bond stories.  I got the impression that people contacted him in South-West Africa and gave him money, but the description that he gave me, did not fit in with anybody that I knew.