CHAIRPERSON
Yes, but no, I'm sorry to interrupt you, this is a hypothetical position because we're not clear now what exactly the evidence the evidence is.  We will ascertain it, we've got the record, but let's assume, argue it on this basis, assume your client said that he only heard about this, he was not at a meeting where a decision was taken, in other words he was not party to a decision by being present at a meeting where a decision was taken, he only heard about it, where does it leave you in respect of a conspiracy?  Would it still be a conspiracy, or would it not be if he only hears, he's not party to the decision.  Would that not mean that he can't rely on a conspiracy?  He wouldn't be part of a conspiracy?