MR GORDHAN
Well even the law which prescribed how detainees should be maintained and that law - and in fact guidelines were initiated during my first detention in 1981 when Mr Agget was in our view murdered or killed in the hand of - committed suicide I believe whilst in detention in Johannesburg.  But those laws are not followed, magistrates are ignored, district surgeons are not taken seriously so you have a paraphernalia, a set of mechanisms put into place which in fact are there for window dressing purposes and nobody actually took seriously.  One can only say, Chairperson, that a very high level of personal vindictiveness and culture of violence was or the previous position to violence was the motivating factor in this regard.
	As far as proportionality is concerned, I believe I have addressed that, the bulk of the information was available already.  As far as moles are concerned there was no impelling reason to find out who that mole was in that point in time, information that we wanted we already had and many things were done with that particular set of information and in any event that particular mole called The Owl was not a unique phenomenon in the relationship between the ANC and the police at that point in time.
	Finally, Chairperson, I believe that as the previous president would say we will have had less than frank answers, I believe, in the submissions put to you that there is no serious remorse about the kind of actions that were taken and the approach of Mr Botha as far as reconciliation is concerned is still wanting in sincerity in my view and I want to leave him with an appeal that he think seriously, not in my case, but having been party to the killing of Mbuso Shabalala and Charles Ndaba, that he gives very serious thought to letting those families have the bodies of their people, let those bodies be buried with dignity and with caring by their families and that perhaps when all these proceedings are over he should at least cooperate in that final and very important step of reconciliation to leave their minds at rest.  My assault doesn't necessarily feature in this regard.  Thank you.