MR WILLS
You had a discussion with Colonel Botha which has been referred to, I just want to canvass one or two issues, the discussion with Botha on the telephone I think it was regarding the decision what to do with these people, do you recall that?  I think it was on the day of their death, he tried to phone General Steyn, he couldn't get hold of General Steyn so he spoke to you.  I don't know, was it a telephone call or was it a physical meeting?