MS THABETHE
Right.  Now, my next question is, if Botha thought that Shabalala would not have any information that would be of interest to you, you in plural, why was Shabalala detained in the first place?  What was the purpose of detaining Shabalala, because Ndaba had already given the information and as far as your evidence goes, Botha said you don't need Shabalala.