MR VAN DER MERWE
Right.  Well firstly, there's a couple of points which I was asked to put on record.  If we look at Exhibit Q1, which is the transcript of the proceedings in terms of Section 29, you will notice on the second-last page of that, which is typed page 11, that the witness was never at any stage sworn in.  I was asked to just stress that point.  He was never under oath during this, this was an informal discussion up to that stage.