MARTINUS RAS
Chairperson, from my point of view, as Mr De Kock and Mr Nortje were, during the time that I knew them, they worked directly together in Ovamboland, we didn't work directly together, we simply knew each other, and Mr De Kock, if I may put it like this from an outsider's perspective, Mr De Kock and Mr Nortje were almost like brothers.