CHAIRPERSON
You see that is exactly the point about State involvement in violence.  This is exactly the point.  There has been evidence, even in Natal, that the State was involved in fomenting violence.  This Commission's investigating officers have been told that the State was involved.  There has been evidence, conclusive evidence that there was involvement by the State, the State using its organs to create a situation of violence to militarise the communities, and I think that that is exactly at the heart of our problem in this case.  And in the case that you are mentioning, yes, they are still in conflict, but what does it mean that they are still in conflict if we do not see that in the total context of how the State got involved in the first instance.
 Now we must remember the strategy that Mr Schelhase described requires precisely that there is opposition between two groups.  So it is not surprising in fact that there was a conflict and violence did continue, was seen to be happening, because this fits in with the description of the strategy by Mr Schelhase.  So your quoting the issue in Durban does not enlighten us in any way except to confirm, at least for me, that the strategy did work.