RAYNER MARIA MORINGER
We had, Colonel Mzwaiba and myself, had the odd meetings a couple of times at the Wild Coast Sun.  The main reason why we had this one to one meetings, was if we wanted to discuss something we did not want to use the telephone for, we would meet one to one, and the Wild Coast Sun was the ideal place, I could fly to Durban, take a car, and the Wild Coast Sun at that time, was part of, I think, it belonged to the, partly, to the Transkei government as well.  There we would discuss matters which we didn't want to discuss over the telephone and during one of those meetings, okay, in previous discussions already, the whereabouts of Mr Mbotoli were the subject matter and then at one stage, as I said earlier, out of a telephone intercept, a telephone number in Johannesburg was found out, which resulted in the Transkei Military Intelligence sending people to Pretoria, in order to locate Mr Mbotoli and to eliminate him, to use the expression.
MR Z. MAPOMA: I see.  Now you said you countered that idea by saying that he must be kidnapped to Transkei rather than being killed?