MR WEBSTER
Mr Chairman, that is quite so.  I agree with you, Mr Chairman, if we are talking about a people who say to you:  "We went to kill those people.  We set about on the unlawful - with an unlawful intention of killing those people."  Now if that were the case of the applicants, it makes no difference at all.  It doesn't make any difference at all in those circumstances, but to a person who disavows the killing of those people, because this is what Botha is basically saying, that he didn't shoot at anybody and this is why I even put it to him that having not caused the death of any of those people, on what basis in law would he apply for amnesty.
	Given enough time, Mr Chairman, I would probably lead you to the passage in the evidence of Maj Botha where he concedes this, because we are not, as I said, dealing with unlawful conduct, as at that stage it's clear that it is lawful conduct and he says so, it's put to him that he acted lawfully.  He says yes.  Now the unlawfulness is not very clear and so far as Maj Botha is concerned, to my mind, if he as he has testified here, set about shooting at a vehicle and even if one were to concede that one or more of those shots may have killed somebody, but his express intention to my mind was a lawful one and he has to stand or fall by what he presents to you,  lawful conduct.