MR VAN DER MERWE
And he also indicates that - I don't know if my learned colleague has a problem, Mr Chair.  I beg your pardon.  My instructions are also and he will testify later, that at the stage when he was inside the room, he took note of the fact that a black object, he does not know whether it was a pipe, but he does not recall in whose possession it was, but he did see a black object there and you are saying it was a sjambok?