N JACK MENERA
Let me answer you in this way.  Maybe you don't understand the politics of that day in the same fashion.  He was an ANC member.  For him to be a councillor he was guilty.  That is the first fact which I want you to understand.  For him to be a councillor, that was the beginning of his unfaithfulness despite what he has done before but the strong point was that he was a councillor and that was a problem. You know well that he was an ANC member, which means that he was a member of SACP, he knew politics.
	Mr Morgan Phelane said something in the Truth Commission  in the Human Rights Violations that he has been encouraged by Winnie Mandela to be the councillor.  I want to challenge what he said, that he must come and explain that before this Commission that Winnie Mandela encouraged him to be the councillor. He could have come before the community because we encouraged him many times that he should step down, many times.  He didn't agree with us.  I learned last year during the Truth Commission Human Rights Violations that he was encouraged by Winnie Mandela to be the councillor.  I want to say he is lying.  If Winnie Mandela can be asked she would deny that she encouraged Mr Morgan that he should be a councillor.  If Winnie Mandela could have been at Brandfort, Winnie Mandela could have been the Accused No 1 and I could have been Accused No 2, because Winnie Mandela didn't want and informer and together with all the leadership of the ANC there was nobody who would be happy to associate himself or herself with an informer.