MR VISSER
May I reply to that?  Chairperson, first of all, this is a Commission of Inquiry, where we are trying to find out the truth of matters and where we are not strictly bound to the normal rules of evidence, although one stays as close to those rules as possible.  I'm not producing this document as a confession, I found this document Chairperson, in the docket which became available to us for the first time, yesterday.  It pretends to be notes taken of a consultation and I want to use it for no evidentiary value higher than that.  It's not as if we are asking you to accept this document as proof of the contents thereof, it is simply a document which I wish to use to ask Mr Mbane certain questions, and he can answer and at the end of the day you would be in the position, Chairperson, to weigh up the probabilities on the issues.  And that's as far as it goes.