CARL CASTELING BOTHA
Yes, we did by nature of the situation and I told him this is what's happening and he could not believe.  I said: "Joe's denying it and he's doing enquiries" and he said: "I cannot believe it."  I will not use the words used, but he said he could not believe it that that's how he reacted, and it just proved that by the nature of the situation it created some reserve towards Verster.