MR MEYER
... the applicants weren't here implicated in that.   Yes, and then, if I can turn then to Mr Chikororo's evidence.  Mr Chikororo didn't give evidence before the HRV Committee, the first time he gave evidence was before this Committee.  Mr Chikororo admitted that there were also other people involved in his torture besides the three applicants and, I'm not quite sure, I stand to be corrected but I think his evidence was also that he couldn't see who attached the electrodes to his private parts, if I remember correctly.
	And then, with regard to Mr Mahumela, Mr Mahumela specifically says that that specific method was not used on him.  Again, Mr Ramaligela had conceded that he might have been involved in the torture of Mr Mahumela and Mr Nesamari also conceded that already in his evidence before - when he gave evidence-in-chief.
	So, my submission in regard to this aspect, Mr Chairman, is that if one has a look and one compares the evidence of the applicants who were very keen to fully disclose everything they did but, they denied specifically this specific method and you compare that with the evidence of the victims which I've already submitted was unsatisfactory, it is my submission that you must find when you have to make the decision between which version is correct, that the version of the applicants is the correct one and that they indeed did not use this method of torture on the victims.