MR FORTUIN
Excuse me, that is not my question.  What I am asking you sir, is if it is so easily available that you were able to check in April and March and establish that Mr Maduna became a member in 1991, in June 1991, in fact to be specific, it means that that records are easily attainable, which means that Mr Maduna could have asked his Counsel or his family members or friends, to go to the PAC Branch and get a copy.