AZHAR CACHALIA
What I'm saying is that if in the process I am mentioning matters which you are quite aware of, please stop me.  It's my first application that I'm opposing.  Be that as it may, sir, as I understand it, and I may be skating on thin ice in this regard, as, the section that I read which requires that the offence to be commit, to which the application is an act associated with a political objective in terms of Section 20 of the Act, then goes on to extensively define what an act associated with a political objective means.
	And I want to make the submission, Chairperson, that it is quite clear from all the applicants, to the extent that the, to the extent that Mr Ndlovu for example, said that there is no explanation, there is no objective that we wished to attain in this particular matter, we can't explain it, that is the end of his evidence.  And I think that is the gist of the matter.  What we are saying is that if it was covertly or overtly or even covertly an objective of the ANC to overwhelm, sorry, of the IFP to overwhelm the ANC by killing off its members then one could understand, even if it was covert.  If it was an, there is in my very humble submission sir, no facts before this particular Committee which can be said to be, which can be said to be, the act was being associated with a political objective.  At best for the applicants, para sub paragraph 2(a) might be apt of application and perhaps paragraph 2(d) could be of application, but I am saying that the evidence of the applicants themselves negates the possibility that any particular ...(intervention)