CHAIRPERSON
And then obviously with regard to Mr Verster, that must be taken into account with regard to assessing the credibility.  And then with regard to the Harms Commission, there seemed to be a great reluctance on the part of Mr Verster, to admit that what he told the Harms Commission, wasn't the truth.  He didn't really stand up and say, you know, that's what I did.  So what .... that we must take into account in assessing his credibility as well.