MR WILLS
Yes, my argument would be similar.  I think this provides, they were provided with the Section 18 notices, they had ample opportunity to come and to testify in opposition, and it's very easy for somebody at a distance to sit in Ulundi and say, we know nothing about this, these people are just criminals, it's another thing for them to come and substantiate those averments and subject themselves to cross-examination.
I want to, I don't see that there's a need to harp on the Ermelo matters unless there's something else, just that, the only other thing ...(intervention)