URIAL ABRAHAMSE
He mentioned two names, Tom Williams and myself and the reason he mentioned those names was because we were not killed in the raid.  Right?  The later on in the day he completely denies having seen our house, okay.  When he started he counted the vehicles at the house and when I gave Danny the vehicles at the house, I deliberately left out the motorbike.  He raised the issue of the motor bike.  Right?  So I am saying to you that it is incredibly difficult for us to reconcile at, not only at a personal level when this kind of stuff is still going on, it is immeasurably more difficult to reconcile at a national level and get our country working.  It's - I mean I was saying to Michelle on Sunday, my wife, that one of the things that really frustrates me about South Africa is the fact that these days there is no proper debate of issues.  There's no proper engagement of issues.  If you criticise Mr Malan, the very first criticism is that Mr Malan is a racist because Mr Malan is white and therefore he must be a racist.  If I say that I think the ANC really messed up on the question of HIV Aids, they didn't handle it properly in my personal opinion, then I'm anti-democratic.  I mean, I just feel that we must stop this whole - we must engage, we must debate properly and then we'll be able to reconcile.  We must be able to debate these issues and we must come forward cleanly when we talk to each other.  We mustn't come into the debate with hidden agendas, like the way Mr Olifant was coming in here yesterday.  That frustrates me terribly and if that frustrates me, who is a fairly sober-headed fellow, ...(intervention)