MR JACK DEMONSTRATES
Attorney, whatever.  I am really in a difficult situation now, whereby I was hoping that I will sit down and listen.  My intention was never to come here and nail down Deon, Mr Nieuwoudt, okay?  And I think you are misunderstanding. Your questions now seem to be achieving what I think you are not intending to achieve.  I expected Mr Nieuwoudt to explain in detail, and I don't blame him for omitting, and I know that if you want to find faults with me, the first fault you will find is the fact that he doesn't even know when I was arrested in 1985, okay.  And I find it very funny that he has such a good recollection and actually I believe he got documents in his possession, which are not even available at Louis le Grange at this point in time.  They have been shredded and I thought he will use those documents he has, which he has shown he does have them, to come clean on this matter, especially with mentioning his co-partners in torture. But he failed to do that.  And I have no apologies for not having - my intentions even now, is not to pin him down, but what I want him to do, I hope he will do to this amnesty application, is to tell just things as they were. I mean nobody is standing here and saying that no, we want to punish you for that little bit, admit this little bit. That is not what I am for here. I don't take care about that.