MR WAGENER IN REPLY
Thank you Chairman, two issues only.  The matter referred to by Mr Koopedi was a matter that came before your brother, Judge Potgieter, together with Adv Sandi and Mr Sibanyoni in White River.  The Judgment I have here dated 22 June 2000 in the applications of Gen Nyanda, Gen Choke and a person called Dick Mkhonto.  Now it's clear, Mr Chairman, that the issues that we are debating here today were not raised at all in that matter as he correctly indicated there was no opposition.  That matter seems to me, with great respect, to have been somewhat one-way traffic.
	Regarding the reference to page 7 of your bundle, Mr Chairman, where Mr Kasrils tries to set out his involvement, Mr Chairman, this is not that simple.  My submission to you is that anyone with knowledge of the military, will know that the truth of military intelligence per definition what his role is.  His role is never ever confined to instructing and training operatives how to collect intelligence.  The main function of any military intelligence component, is to receive intelligence, to collect intelligence, to evaluate such intelligence, to do research thereupon and then by way of intelligence reports to brief the operational side of the military on how further actions should take place, based upon, partly based upon such intelligence.  So if the submission here is that that was the only role Mr Kasrils played, if that is what he is saying here, my submission is he's lying and that should be tested.  It can never ever be true.
	Lastly Mr Chairman, whether it should serve any purpose or not in calling these gentlemen to this hearing, I have put to you my arguments why I am of the opinion that it will in fact serve a purpose and I can't take it any further.  It will enable you to make a full decision whether the applicant has complied with Section 20(1)(b).  Thank you.