MR CURRIN
We accept that.  Like you, we had extreme difficulty in fact, we did not succeed in all our attempts to get a copy of the proceedings, and of the judgment on the merits which would have helped.  We accept that there was no evidence, direct evidence led on the de-indivudation.  But having said that, we did hear evidence about how an objective to get the keys, an objective to take hostage, suddenly almost unexplicably on the spur of the moment, developed into a frenzy where people then committed a crime which they had not considered, which they had not planned to commit shortly before. We are saying that that is a factor which should be taken into consideration, and probably that factor, if one leaves out the de-individuation, relates to the point we have already made about there being no premeditation.