RE MR MBANDAZAYO
And he has not been charged in respect of all these incidents except this one.  Not a single one except this one, he was charged with this one and convicted and he came up with all of them voluntarily.  The one he refers as about 28 operation he was involved in.  Of course the others are already with the Committee, they submitted affidavits, they said they can be Chamber matters.  Some of them are still outstanding for the hearing and if I can throw some light Madam Chair, the Committee would not be aware that he was not initially to be put in this, he was not supposed to be in this hearing himself.  It was at my instance that he be put in, he was going to be put in Welkom, they said they can fit him here because I'm having difficulty getting him to give evidence in other cases because we are using him in getting, as the head of this unit, as we're still sorting out the question of Letslape so it's difficult sometimes, the prison authorities, for him to transport on this ...[indistinct], so we agreed with the leader, the Chief Leader, Advocate Mpshe that his matter be set down so that if he may be granted amnesty ...[indistinct] would be able to use him in some of these incidents which some of these operations were involved.  Some of them he has assisted us, some he is able to say this one was not because we have those problems so it makes it easy for us now to differentiate because it's difficult when he's in prison.  Some of them will say no I was in the unit which so and so, the unit commander, some of them are dead so we are unable to differentiate that.  Then he is the person who are in a position to do that and so look, this was not in that and he has done that in many others.  Now the problem we have is that the SAP are holding the documents which are using them in arresting some of these people we are asking if they have not applied for amnesty, that's the reason they are given that they are not receiving this information and we are having that problem in some cases because what is happening that you find that I ask "who is Junior" and they tell me the name of Junior and you find that there are other seven Juniors and you are caught up in the situation where we go to the wrong Junior and the only assistance you can get is the documents which were confiscated which have all the records which are throwing some light in some of these incidents.  If I may in passing, Honourable Members of the Committee, the case at issue, though I know it's a controversial one, the Eikenhoff incident which I'm also involved, the applicant.  The same issue is still we are ...[indistinct] by those documents but I may say that I'm trying to make a headway.  They have given me some names but unfortunately, they just give you that if they give me Junior, they'll tell you Junior was used by so and so and so and so, about ten.  Now the question is, at the particular point in time where he was operating, the documents are still there, they are still keeping, they don't release the whole information, you have to fight to get the information so that you can know that at that particular time, point in time, when that operation happened at a certain point in time, Junior was so and so.  So we have those handicaps and I'm glad to say the Committee, the Members of the Amnesty Committee, assisting as I indicated, Judge Wilson is also helping, pushing, exercising some waiting these incidents to try and get this information which is handicapping us and as such, what I'm saying is that it's not because the applicants don't want to come up with the names but some will come and confuse with the others, some - Advocate Prior may say that we had a hearing in Aliwal North, we have to abandon it because of this problem.  When somebody mentions that so and so and so and so was involved, then he will come and say he is also an applicant - "no I was not involved in this operation I mentioned, I was involved in such and such and such an operation" and you will find that there was a mix up of names.
	So those are the problems we are faced with this but what my point I'm driving at is that Maseko has come forward and gave the information, also the information, the application is here, he has not been charged because he came here voluntarily with the whole information.  He not been charged because he has applied for amnesty and that they were not known, most of them, which were pre- or the writing of the incident and also that Madam Chair and the Committee, I want this Committee to take into account that during this operation when these monies were asked, R300, R400, it's not a question that this operation was done today the other one tomorrow and the other one the following day or two days thereafter.  Those are the problems, although there are not dates you have a problem where somebody has to sustain himself, he has to stay for a month and taking a unit of that magnitude, who can be sustained with R300?
	Definitely, when we go to the next operation that R300 is no longer there so ...[intervention]