MR KNOETZE
Can I then furthermore refer you to page 31 of the set of applications, it is the application of Deon Martin, paragraph 11.   It says
"Not all of us in the group had weapons and Phil Klopper gave two home-made pipe shotguns that he received from General Oelofse to Etienne Visser and Martin van der Schyff.   Gerhard Diedericks had a baton."
Can I refer you to page 28 of the record, where he gave evidence in front of this committee, he gave the following evidence:-
"And at the roadside cafe itself, Phil Kloppers took out two shotguns and, or handmade shotguns, he handed over one to Etienne Visser and the other to Martin van der Schyff."
Do you understand that?