FERDINAND BARNARD
No Chairperson, indeed it was not so.  They made it very clear to me that I was functioning in a covert capacity, DCC was the covert section of Military Intelligence but that I would be covert in that covert division, in other words I did not visit the Arak Building at all.  The Arak Building was the heart of DCC so to speak.  I was not allowed to be seen there, nobody who was attached to me was permitted to visit the place.  It was testified here that they didn't know that I was working for DCC.  I didn't know that either.  When I heard him say that he and Wouter Basson and Chap Maree had been involved there, I was quite surprised, because I went to Chap Maree one day, I ran into him after I had had my hair cut one day, and I found him in the parking area, I offered him a job.  Then he had been working there for a long time already and he was even more senior than I was, and I didn't even know about it.  He didn't tell me either.
	I kept on with him, because I liked him.  I respected him and I tried to get him in, because this would strengthen my position.  He didn't want to know anything, however.  So when I first heard here what was really going on, I realised that I had actually made quite a fool of myself, but it wasn't anything like that.  I functioned on a completely covert basis.
	I attended co-ordination sessions, I established my own substructure and I established a premises in Johannesburg from which I would operate.  It was a front.