REV XUNDU
I just want to ask another question.  Question is, was it common practice for police to rough up prisoners in order to get information from them during the course of your ... (interrupted)
MR CARD?: There were cases, yes, there were definitely cases like that, but it depended of course what they were questioning them for.  I mean I dealt with people that, a large number of people and there were those, some of those who later, obviously for their own reasons, said that they were assaulted when they weren't assaulted and obviously they do it for a reason because some of them talk to the police immediately and they have to go back and tell the story that they have, that they have spoken and in fact that they, and in fact that they, it was forced out of them.  Many, many people.  I can tell you many people that I dealt with were never touched.  Mr Chairman, can I just tell one story, just to help you on that issue.  In  1963, the 8th of April there were a crowd of PAC chaps who were going to attack East London and I went in amongst them and the leader of that, that group was Washington Siklese and I sat and watched him dividing the people into groups to go and attack police stations and I sat watching and I gave evidence before the court.  He got 25 years imprisonment.  Mr Chairman, he later came up.  I went and saw him on Robben Island and he came to Grahamstown to give evidence and most, a lot of the people were allowed to go, move as they liked.  They were wearing prison garb.  They were serving terms of imprisonment.  Siklese served 25 years imprisonment and because  the others  were walking  around, he  said to  me,  Mr Card, won't  you give  me
1 night out in the Grahamstown township and I said to him, I can't do that and he begged 
me.  Finally, Mr Chairman, I said to him, OK, you can go.  Oh he said to me, you can trust me Mr Card?.  That was the leader of the PAC in East London and Mr Chairman, I allowed him to go to the Township for the night.  He took off his prison garb, put on clothes and he went off and he came back.  Now I just want to say, if he is the leader of the PAC, I could do that to him,  isn't there a problem with what's happening to-day ?