CHAIRPERSON
I think the same arguments apply in respect of those, and to a large extent the Izingolweni type of incidents, they were horrific, I mean there's no doubt about it.  I mean, when one looks at most of the victims, they were school children there.  I mean, they had a problem at the school and I think at one stage Mr Hlongwane said you know, take out the whole school.  You know, to solve the problem.  And then, come across school kids and they get pointed out and boom they're shot down, that sort of thing.  Much in the same mould as many other.