MR MAPOMA
As I'm saying, Chairperson, at this stage it is not conclusive, but if further evidence can be tendered, it may crop up that that evidence is material and to a certain extent that may have been the reason.  In fact, Chairperson, if I may go further, Visser in his application vehemently denies that this Scorpion was in fact this Oupa Madondo, the one who is spoken of.