<UNKNOWN>
It is absolutely frightening Mr Chairperson, if one would watch 
the tape, that is tape number 8 - and I mentioned that in my heads 
of the 22nd of April 1993 and the time is 12H25, what appears on 
the tape and if one would watch the entire tape it would still be 
this Deetliefs and Beetge, no notes are being taken.  One can see 
Beetge's hand, they are planning to help the right-wingers.  
	And Deetliefs will say "They don't want to discuss it too 
openly because it's supposed to be a secret".  Then Deetliefs says, 
while they are discussing who will be the successor of Hani, 
Deetliefs says, and this is not the applicant, Deetliefs proposes 
that Sexwale would be the possible successor.  Then Deetliefs 
says that "Sexwale is a bastard", upon which the applicant 
answers -he's sitting there and this was recorded within the 
prison, he's sitting at the table with his head turned and he says
		"They're all bastards".
	On the same tape further on, the typed 1301, Deetliefs is 
still in discussion with the applicant and he expresses great praise 
of Clive Derby-Lewis, that he is such a wonderful man, that 
people trust him - this is Deetliefs speaking, and then they discuss 
the fact that Clive Derby-Lewis was involved with the 
Witwatersrand ...[indistinct] and then the applicant makes the 
following remark
		"Clive Derby-Lewis is a good man, he is a man of 
balls - he's a guy of balls".
excuse me.
	What is contained there on page 308 does not exist. It is 
not that it was interpreted incorrectly, it simply doesn't exist at 
all.  That which Deetliefs had written here was his own story.  He 
had taken discussions with the applicants, written it down to suit 
his own purposes.  
	He also wanted to try to prove that there was a greater 
conspiracy at hand because already from that point when the case 
was being investigated, foreign investigators were called in to 
assist with the investigation but it doesn't end there.  I have 
simply highlighted those sections with regard to which the 
applicant was cross-examined, but it is absolutely frightening to 
watch those tapes.
	On page 301 - I'd like to refer the Committee to this, 
Deetliefs here makes a very long statement and it is here where 
his style changes - I don't know if he became tired, but now 
assumes a sort of discussion form of what the applicant had said 
to him.  What appears on page 301 certainly does not appear on 
the video tapes.  He refers, himself, to the video tape.  He also 
states  that is was the 18th of April at 11H02 in Pretoria 
Maximum and all these details are given, for example that - this in 
the middle of that page, that Clive's wife Gay, was not present on 
that particular evening but at the handing over of the weapon and 
the murder list, that is not on the video tape and it does not 
compare with the testimony delivered in the Supreme Court.