FERDINAND BARNARD
Mr Chairperson, yes.  Klaas de Jonge project, I received pieces of information concerning this and what I could infer from discussions that I had with Lafras Luitingh, was that the South African Government and especially now the politicians of the day, were very angry at him.  It was about the fact that he escaped from police custody, went to the Dutch embassy, which was a very great embarrassment for the Government, he sat there for months and he waived at the cameras and I followed this in the media at that time.  Lafras Luitingh then for example told me and the words that he used was that:  "The cunt must die" and this comes from the top, from the President's level.