TESTIMONY_GIVER:
  Oh, yes, look I mean, look, if 20 years ago you'd have told me that we would be sitting here trying to make some sense out of this, the furtive inhumane processes of the apartheid era, I would have said you are hallucinating, really, I mean, it is not possible.  I really thought we were going to slide into increasing confrontation, you know, and retribution, and until we ended up with an ongoing civil war that would make the Rhodesian war look like a minor faction fight out there in the hills there and something, and at the end of it, you know, from ... (inaudible) ...