MR MBANDAZAYO
Both applicants, Chairperson, I'm talking about both applicants.  Definitely Chairperson, when he's arrested, Chairperson, he will say anything which will save his skin, which he thinks and at the end of the day, if one, we are representing these people, you find sometimes that look this was stupid, if he had done this, he would not have been in this mess in which he is, but at the time he did this, he believed that this will help him because he had no other option but to pursue that particular line.  So it's my submission that, Chairperson, the statements which were made with the intention of going to Court, definitely I know that though it's taken into regard in some other aspect, but it's not the thing that the Commission will decide on the amnesty because most of the people lie in Court, they lie deliberately in Court because the first thing that comes to mind is the way of getting out of this whole thing.  "If I put it this way I may get out with the whole thing."  So definitely Chairperson, if one admits that:  "What I did, I did this and I did with the purpose of political objective", you are sunk, there's no doubt about that.
	Now, therefore Chairperson, it's my submission that the applicants have met all the requirements of the Act and that they belonged to a bona fide political organisation and what they did, they did in pursuance of the struggle of the PAC at the time.  Chairperson I want to emphasise that because I know in most of the hearings that some of the applicants, even if you can take that to - it counts in their favour to say because it was - some of the applicants were saying:  "Look we never heard about it, we are in the rural areas, it took some time before it came in", but they were honest to the Committee and said:  "Look we never - we heard about that", but definitely there was a disagreement which Col Poni has indicated and of course he put it bluntly, the first applicant, that:  "I did not accept, me personally" but it was not depending on him, it was depending on the Commander as correctly put by Col Poni, they have to wait until they are told that:  "Look, you suspend now, we have decided to suspend the arms struggle", from their Commanders and if they have done that after that Chairperson, definitely I would agree, I wouldn't be arguing now to you.  I would say:  "Look, they did that in defiance, so what they did, they did for their own benefit, it had nothing to do with the struggle at the time", but as Col Poni correctly put it and of course he put it in a very diplomatic manner, but I must say that Letlapa Mphahlele was a Director of Operations and everybody was looking at him and as he said that they have to do damage control, the first thing they have to get hold of the Director of Operations who was in the Transkei in the rural areas.  I must say ...(intervention)