ABRAM VAN ZYL
That is indeed so, Chairperson, what I meant in my statement if I for example referred to a cell meeting where the following persons were present I mean everyone was present there but not necessarily that Chap Maree was present when I made a submission with regard to the Early Learning Centre project to the Co-ordinator or to the Regional Manager.  As it is stated there it could be somewhat misleading, I hear what Mr van Eck says.  With regard to the ape foetus it was a direct instruction that the Regional Manager, Burger, gave to me and I am not able to say whether Kalla heard this or whether he saw it, but I did not discuss the project with him up to the time after it was completed.