TESTIMONY_GIVER:
  He was, Mr Chairman, working under Captain Jan Coetzee, who took Vlakplaas over on the 31st of December 1981 from me, but as I say, when Jan did not have work for him he would leave him at Vlakplaas to operate with us.  He was just paid an informant fee by West Rand, and otherwise whilst working with Jan Coetzee and I would need him, like in the Mxenge case, I could call on headquarters to arrange for Joe Mamasela to come down.