CHAIRPERSON
But I think what Mr Gordhan, one of the aspects of Mr Gordhan's question is that you as members of the security police who had dealings with Section 29 detainees didn't let the visits of the magistrates hinder you in acting unlawfully towards the detainees, in other words it didn't in any way stop you from assaulting them.  Instead of beating them over the head with a stick you would use the suffocation method or some other method where there wouldn't be any physical marks left?