UNKNOWN
Chairperson, thank you very much.  The paragraph on the bottom of page 4 which you have referred to now again.  'Managing relationships with the TBVC was the most depressing and distressing experience of my life.  I inherited a nightmare that was once a dream.'
 Now I want to suggest that it is inevitable that the majority of people who did not believe in the establishment of so-called independent states were, could hardly be blamed if they felt that the South African government, having created these states, could never really disown parenthood, that they were the parents of this, the father if you like, of these states and therefore had authority to exercise control.  
 I think you will concede that the South African government never hesitated to exercise control when it wished to do so, certainly for a very long period of time.  Now it does seem to me that what you are saying is that in fact what the South African government of that time created, was a Frankenstein or something that got out of control and yet when it clearly needed to be stopped in its tracks, those who created it couldn't do that because these people now said, we're independent, keep your hands off us baaskap or you know, the way you described it.
 What I'm saying is that in a very real sense the responsibility of what happened on September 7th is not just  ... end of Tape 6, side A ... and that this was a consequence and what we are living with now is a legacy which is extremely hard to manage.  You yourself have indicated this and anybody knows as they look at the situation now, two years after elections, that there is desperate poverty in these parts of the world, that there is unbelievable corruption which has taken place over a very long period of time and that there were attitudes demonstrated on that terrible day which had no respect for life.
 I don't know, understand how, I don't know any other way of describing what happened that day when I look at it and listen to the victims and so on, that, and Goldstone's own considered opinion, that this was, this was bloody murder.  Now you can understand therefore, Mr Botha, I'm sure that there are those who still feel that somehow you and your colleagues had the power to pull the plug, either by simply declaring some moratorium, disposing of this man, providing a referendum, something in order to get to the will of the people before this conflict became unmanageable.
 Now you have made a number of statements in recent months and years which reflect a considerable thinking of your own role and of the government's role and of what's happened in this country and so on.  Does anything I say make sense?  I am trying to get to the roots of the matter rather than just the actual events of those days.