ABRAM VAN ZYL
What happened there was that I heard that Chap Maree, or Chap Maree and the Co-ordinator were embroiled in some conversation and during the discussion I heard that Lubowski's name was mentioned.  That is what I can tell you the fact.
	That is also why I said that the statement, my Section 29 statement in that regard is incorrect.  It is not true if I say that Chappie presented a project, that was not the case.  That they were indeed in some discussion and that I had heard Lubowski's name in the discussion, I do not deny that.