MR P DU PLESSIS
Then I have to deal with that.  There is a quote from evidence or a testimony of Rich Verster with reference to certain people that I'd like to ask if you know them.
"When I got into Pretoria, I was summoned to go and see Koos Louw and also Tolletjie Botha, head of DCC. I explained to them what had happened.  They went to an office with me.  He, Botha, picked up the telephone and he phoned South West Africa, the Head of the Prison Department and also the police and he said:  'We'll have to use the old boys network.'  They phoned up the Brigadier in South West Africa and asked what happened.  'Have they got Aitchison?'  They said yes, they have."
Now resulting from this, we've already dealt with Koos Louw, Tolletjie Botha, the former head of DCC, did you know him?