TESTIMONY_GIVER:
  That's correct.  And of course, Mr Chairman, I think if one can speak to the station commander of Lothair Police Station at the time, and Chris Dieklifs can also confirm this, and Koos Schutte, Sergeant Koos Schutte, is also still available.  And apart from that Mr David Tshikalanga can, I am sure, reflect what injuries he had.  And of course Mr van der Lith too, Lieutenant Koos van der Lith, JAC van der Lith, J A C van der Lith, that's now a colonel at Pietersburg.