MR VISSER
Mr Chairman, if I may say so, it was quite clear that Botha said that at the time when they went into Swaziland, in order to find out where exactly Ms Ndwandwe was, they made use of Visagie, who at that time gathered that information.  There is nothing that says that Visagie didn't gather it through those two informers for example, or that the informers didn't observe and monitor Ms Ndwandwe prior to that time Mr Chairman, so if it is going to be regarded as a concession, that these people were not informers, well then clearly Mr Chairman, we are at loggerheads.