MR VISSER
Now, 8 and 9 in fact read together.  Now you say that Mr Charles Ndaba didn't have this information, all of it and therefore that Botha says he got all of this from Charles Ndaba, he's lying.  Now there are two permutations of possibilities here.  One is that you are right, that Botha is incorrect when he supposes that he heard all of this at the time from Ndaba, that's the one possibility, the one that you're advancing, but isn't there also another possibility and that is that Botha is correct, because after all, with the information he got from Ndaba he smashed Operation Vula?