TESTIMONY_GIVER:
  That is what we believed happened, and there was also there again another discrepancy that it didn't really happen where the police said it happened.  And so it was there again again de Kock's way of trying to shift - or maybe putting his own justice in in a way, just moving things around all the time, taking the Courts for granted.  We had inspected one place, and it later emerged that the - I actually called it an ambush, the area where this happened was somewhere else, because our forensic people went in and found spent cartridges and things like that.