MR MARTINI
Chairperson, I'm not here representing Mr Hardien, for all I care you can - on the relevant facts, Mr Hardien can be believed on relevant facts, but whether Mr Hardien told Mr Williams there's a bomb in there, there's a dispute.  Mr Williams says that's nonsense and they had a bit of an altercation with the use of the words that were used.  But that's irrelevant, because to get - the objective once again is irrelevant, it's not a requirement, Mr Lax.  But to come to the inference, how can the Committee possibly not draw another inference that the applicants and Mr van Zyl did not intend to kill?  When?  The facts are, no-one died.  	Touching on the Barnard thing about nails, the facts are there were no nails.  Now that comes back to accepting Mr Barnard's version.  Botha says he was the last person who put the bag in the haversack, there were no nails.  Mr Steenkamp, the bomb expert who came to ... there's a statement by him - no nails.  Mr Oesman who is the only victim who testified, didn't tell us there were nails.  So ...