UNKNOWN
Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman I must say that I was also warned many times, of course I knew that Pretoria had various agencies planted all over the Ciskei administration and even in parastatals, some were even having a front offices in places.  It's unfortunate that you never find that information when actually it is gnawing and undermining your administration until late when you start hearing these things.  For instance Nieuwoudt I knew him personally as one of my captains at 21 battalion when I was still a corporal or a sergeant.  He was a very good instructor.  So I liked him and when I wanted a serious-minded, highly trained intelligence officer I called for him.  I knew where he was because I was a military attache in Pretoria and I'd met him in places, and I was shocked when I heard this, after they had resigned, after they actually they had to disband, I was shocked, but that was confirmed through various other things, and through various other things which in retrospect we looked at.
 But I must say also, answering both your questions on this one, when they were working with me they were very loyal to the extent that while we were on a job they gave me all the assurance, and I got the impression that they were doing what I wanted them to do.  When Chris Nel, after I resigned in 1994, when he made various disclosures that he was actually responsible for toppling me through feeding me, you know, various untruths and propaganda to infuriate me or to make me leave other people and so on, I was shocked but I was not surprised because I expected that, in many cases intelligence officers are called, in Afrikaans they are called "hore?", they work for this and they work for that for money.  So what I want to say here is that even if they worked against me they never showed in my presence, and all the time that I was working with them they gave me all the necessary respect and cooperation, but I know of the potential of damage that many, many planted agents of Pretoria did to me.  They undermined my relationship with certain people for fear that should I have connections with these people their agendas would either be exposed or we would be a strong foe against them, but even in that scenario they knew that I had an original mind, I wanted things originally and from the heart.  I believe that what my spirit tells me in terms of way forward, I must follow  it.  So in many cases they had trouble with dissuading me from doing what I wanted to do.  I would agree that there is many things that I didn't know that were being fed through my system for the ends of the South African Government, and to destroy whatever initiative that would have perhaps impacted positively on the Ciskeian people, and the development of political development of South Africa.