MEMBER OF PANEL
Thanks very much.  You've spoken at great length about the situation in the '80's through your own personal experience and also studies that you've done subsequently also on conditions in detention.  I wondered you could comment on an earlier stage which in fact comes within the brief of the Commission.  We begin in March 1960, now through my own experience and what we heard from Charlie just this morning, there seems to have been a quantitative leap in what you call the professional interrogation, between say the time of Sharpeville when it seemed that quite a number of the people who were taken in detention that time had a fairly bumbling experience of how they were handled.  There was a quantitative leap between 1960 and certainly by the end of '63, beginning of '64 that would suggest as well that the sophistication of interrogation, of handling, the sophistication from the police and particularly the Special Branch side, came from a period of training, a very rapid period of training that must have taken place in those few years.  Do you have any comment or in fact any suggestions for the Commission about where the South African Police would have got that training from, they obviously went out of the country?