ADV BOOYENS
Mr Chairman I don't know.   I'm not an expert at interrogation.   Maybe theoretically there a hundred and one possibilities; maybe what they could have done if they invited him for a beer, they could have obtained the same result.   The answer to that is, I don't know!   But quite simply we cannot now twenty years down the line take an armchair attitude and say that, but this is completely disproportionate because you told a man to stand up.   	So as far as the issue of proportionality is concerned, Mr Chairman the Security Police lived in an era where you did not take a man for beer and trying to get information out of him that way.   And yes, they probably could have got the information out of him, I don't know in how many other ways - I'm not an expert in interrogation, but maybe the only way they could have got the information out of them, in their perception.