MR HOLE
Thank you Mr Chairman.
	This is the statement prepared in support of an application by the first applicant, Mr Kwanale Enoch Thoba.  It is in the form of an affidavit.
	Mr Chairman it reads as follows:
"The facts deposed to hereunder are within my personal knowledge unless stated otherwise or the context otherwise
	indicates."
Then he recounts his personal circumstances.   He says:
"I am 45 years old and married.  I have three children, the eldest whom is doing standard seven.  My last born is still too young to go to school.
	I have been a member of the Police Force since the 6th of 
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June 1979.   I attended training at the Police College Hammanskraal for six months and was on graduation attached to the Uniform Branch of the Ciskei Police.
After a number of years in the Uniform Branch I was transferred to the CID where I also worked for a number of years until I was transferred to the Elite Unit of the Ciskei Police.  This is where I served until the military coup of March, 1990.
	The offences of which I was convicted and in respect of which I now seek amnesty were committed whilst attached to this unit.
	During 1992 I was arrested and sentenced in separate cases for crimes involving assaults on political detainees.
	I am now serving a period of ten years imprisonment for these offences.
	Although the offences I have made myself guilty of did not include murder of persons, as has happened in security related cases throughout the country, they are nonetheless very serious ones and for which I wish to express remorse and if possible ask forgiveness.
	I have been involved in assaults and torture of political prisoners in circumstances where wisdom and good sense should have told me to act otherwise.
	In order to understand why deeds like these were possible to perform perhaps one should look at the history of this region to be able to place things and understand them in proper perspective."   
Then he deals with the independence of the national states and the relations between the Ciskei and the Transkei.
"As part of the wider scheme of apartheid Transkei became independent in 1976.  Ciskei was to follow in December 1981
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under the leadership of President Sebe.  From the onset Transkei was unhappy about Ciskei being given "independence".   Transkei felt that Ciskei should be given to Transkei to realise their dream of a great Xhosa nation.  These attitudes strained the relations between the states and these strained relations had far reaching consequences and have a bearing on the case before this Committee."
It goes on to deal with the Ciskei state Mr Chairman.  He says,
"The Ciskei state was a creation of apartheid.  To qualify as a country it had to have a population over which it held sovereignty.  To achieve this masses of people were displaced and forcibly removed from the so-called black spots and removed to Ciskei.
	Those who could not be moved to Ciskei by promises of a land of milk and honey were moved by the Military and placed in Ciskei.
	A Secretary for Black Administration and Development wrote in Circular No 25 of 1967:  
'It is accepted Government policy that the Bantu are only temporarily resident in the area of the Republic for as long as they offer their labour there.  As soon
		as they become no longer fit in the labour market they are expected to return to their country of origin or the territory of the national unit where they fit.   No stone should be left unturned to achieve this settlement in the homelands of non-productive Bantu.'
This is a quotation from a book by Brian Lapink, entitled "Apartheid, A History."
	A priest, Cosmos Desmond, reported of a group that was forcibly removed and settled in Natal.  He is quoted: 
"We found the first arrivals sitting in the bare veld,
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surrounded by their belongings, looking bewildered and utterly lost.   A little distance away was a water tank and a pile of folded tents, which the people did no know how to erect.  Nothing else."
This is also a quotation from the same work.
"The scene painted by Father Desmond is true of many cases in Ciskei, especially in Dimbaza.   This was the kind of people His Excellency President for Life, Lennox Sebe, was presiding over.   Poor displaced and angry people.
		The Police were caught in this trap especially those falling into the Security Police category.  It was only a question of time before more and more brutality was to be unleashed to subdue the brave ones who spoke out against the injustice."
	Then dealing with the Sebe family Mr Commissioner, Mr Chairman:
"If the Ciskei Government was discredited for being an apartheid structure to enforce human suffering it was
		no less discredited for being an institution of upliftment and enrichment of the Sebe family and those close to them.
		Lennox Sebe was the Head of State.  His other brother was Minister of Transport.   The other brother was a Commander General of the combined forces, commanding and holding power over the following:  the Army, the Police, the Prisons, the Special Forces, the Traffic Police.  He was the most powerful person in Ciskei.  He was consulted about and authorised all detentions, under Proclamation R252, and later under the National Security Act of 1982."
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	The Committee is at this stage referred to a judgment by His Lordship Mr Justice Pickard in a case of the STATE v SEBE, the reference is quoted in the statement.   The judgment, Mr Chairman, is quoted at length and begins at page 16 of their representations.
"The sons of Namba and Charles Sebe held ranks in the armed forces as well.  It was indeed a Sebe state. During a state function held at the national shrine an unscheduled speaker rose from the ranks of the audience and advanced to the podium and made a speech based on the Scriptures.   He prophesied that in the future Charles Sebe would be powerful, even more powerful than the President.
		The immediate result of this is that the President became fearful of his own brother and proceeded to strip him of his powers.   
		He sidelined him in matters of state and the
		President's security.
		In turn Charles Sebe became afraid of the wrath of the President.  He feared being detained as he had fallen out of favour."  
	Again the Commission is referred to a judgment by Judge Pickard at specifically page 626.  This is Annexure A of the representations, Mr Chairman.
"Fear rose in the senior ranks of the police about their possible detentions.
		The events following the demotion of Mr Charles Sebe were as follows:
A.	Brig Tamsanqa who had served as Charles Sebe's Deputy, was detained.
		B.	Senior Officers, including Charles Sebe gathered 
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around and discussed and questioned the legality of the detention.  Suggestions of releasing Tamsanqa by force were made.
		C.	Charles Sebe was detained and charged with terrorism.  He was sentenced to 12 years' imprisonment by the Bisho Supreme Court.
Again the Committee is referred to Annexure A which is the judgment of Justice Pickard and Annexure B which is an article quoted from the Daily Despatch, entitled 'Charles Sebe Trial Date set at Bisho.   Annexure C, Gen Minnaar was also detained.'
	I am instructed, Mr Chairman, that Gen Minnaar was the side-kick of Gen Sebe.  	Also the Committee is referred to Annexure D which is an article by the Daily Despatch with the heading 'Sebe Jailed for Twelve Years'.    
"Soon after the arrest of Charles Sebe his brother, Namba, was also arrested on corruption charges.  His son Kamba, was arrested and detained by the Police.  Mr Namba Sebe sued the Commissioner of Police for arrest and detention.
		The Government requested further particulars to the particulars of claim.  When he could not supply these the claim was dismissed with costs."
	The Committee is referred to Annexure E which is the combined summons by Mr Namba Sebe, suing for his son and Annexure F which is the Order of the Supreme Court of Ciskei which dismissed his action with costs.
"Charles Sebe was to meet with a similar fate.  He sued for arrear salaries.  The Government defended the action and asked for further particulars, asking inter alia when and by whom he had been employed as a Major General in the Police Force.
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When he could not supply these particulars, his case was also dismissed with costs."
	Reference is made to Annexure G which is the combined summons, and Annexure H which is the Order of Court, dismissing his action with costs.
"To the legal practitioner this might appear to be  a run of the mill procedure in civil litigation.  To us in the Security Forces this was a clear message that the President meant business.  If he could do these things to his flesh and blood ....."
	Mr Commissioner I think there is a mistake here, but I will proceed.
"A further factor was that the wives of his imprisoned and exiled brothers were evicted from their homes.  This was believed to be at the instance of the President or he allowed it to happen."
	Mr Chairman, the Committee is again referred to Annexure I, which is an article by the Daily Despatch at the time, reporting on the eviction of Mrs Namba Sebe and Mrs Charles Sebe from their homes, which was in Tjajo in Ciskei.
"Namba Sebe jumped bail and sought refuge in Transkei.  Namba and Charles Sebe were tried and convicted of terrorism and sentenced to long terms of imprisonment for terrorism.  "
This is Namba and Charles Sebe's sons Mr Commissioner.
"On the 26th of September 1985 a group of White men raided the maximum security prison in Middeldrift and freed Charles Sebe.  This was the worst nightmare of his former juniors, who had whilst he had lost power, acted against him.  Charles Sebe was reputedly powerful and influential. It was not known what he
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would do when he was set free.
		Those who betrayed him had a lot to fear in the line of retribution.   Pressure was put on the juniors to find him."
	Mr Chairman, the Committee is referred to Annexure J which is also an article by a local newspaper, reporting on the armed and violent skipping of Mr Charles Sebe from jail.
"On the same day of the escape of Charles Sebe from prison the son of the President and the Commander of the Elite Unit of which we were members Major General
		Kwane Sebe and his Deputy Colonel Zandasile Waya were abducted. They were drugged and transported to Transkei in the boot of a motor vehicle.
		The pair had been abducted from the Amatola Hotel in Bisho where Charles Sebe was seen shortly after his escape.  It was feared that they were in his hands.
		What became clear to the Security Forces was that we were dealing with not only with Charles Sebe but also his allies who were sophisticated and capable of out manoeuvering us. 
		There was a state of panic, and pressure was being put on the Security Forces and the Elite Unit in particular to find the President's son alive.
		Soon after the abduction of the two it was learnt through Intelligence reports that they were kept hostage by the President's brother, Mr Namba Sebe."
	The Committee, Mr Chairman, is referred to Annexure K, which is an article by a local newspaper, reporting on the abduction and the claim made by Mr Namba Sebe that he was keeping these two hostage.
"Soon demands were received for the release of Tony
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Sebe and Kamba Sebe.   These were sons of Namba and Charles Sebe respectively who were serving sentences for terrorism in Ciskei.   They had been convicted of participation in an attack on a Cabinet member's home, Mr B M Pitje.
		These were most dangerous times in Ciskei.  Days of intrigue and subterfuge.	
		They were made even worse by the apparent free hand
		the Ciskei state gave to the insurgents ...(indistinct).
		Soon after the escape of Charles Sebe reports were received that he had joined an organisation, called Illisolomzi, formed by Ben Nomoy and Lent Maqoma, the latter a former member of the parliament in Ciskei.
		Reports of a guerilla unit under training were received.   The Ciskei Government Intelligence fraternity sent W O Sidney Magauwli to infiltrate Illisolomzi.  He sent home reports of the training, personnel and plans of Illisolomzi.   What was most disturbing about the reports was that the armed units were trained by and with the assistance of the Transkei Defence Force.
		Pamphlets were distributed in Ciskei by Illisolomzi.  One of the pamphlets confirmed that Charles Sebe had become a member of this movement."
	The Committee is now referred to Annexure L, which is an article by a local newspaper, reporting on the conviction of the sons of Mr Namba and Charles Sebe for terrorism. 
"The period after the escape of Charles Sebe was met by panic, fear and mass detentions of those perceived to belong to his organisation or were sympathetic to
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its cause.
		It was in that context that Brig Simandla, Miss Msutwana and Mrs Nomoy were detained and tortured.
		This is by no means to justify acts of torture and suffering but to try, difficult as it might be, to
		explain the context in which such acts took place. 
		Miss Msutwana was believed to be connected to Charles Sebe through her sister.   
		Mrs Nomoy's husband was believed to be a member of Illisolomzi.   
		She at that stage had been in hiding in Transkei.   Brig Simandla was head of Middeldrift Prison when Charles Sebe was freed.
		There were reports that a cell key had been lost prior to their escape.   There were reports that he had disarmed some of the guards prior to the escape.  Whether these reports are true or not we cannot say.  They were, however, the basis of his questioning."
Then, the applicant, Mr Chairman, goes on to deal with the torture of Brig Simandla. 
"Soon after the escape of Mr Charles Sebe from Middeldrift Prison, information was received via intelligence sources that Brig Simandla who was head of Middeldrift Prison at the time, had
A.	Caused or allowed the guards of the perimeter fence to be disarmed on the day of the attack.
		B.	Allowed or made it possible for a guard not to be posted at the tower post on the night of the attack. 
		C.	Made it possible for a cell key to be lost some weeks before the escape.   This key was used in 
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the escape.
		This information had not been verified and Col Panzi who was acting as the head of the Elite Unit during 
		the abduction of the Officer Commanding and his Deputy, instructed people to question Brig Simandla.
		The people instructed to do so were myself,( that is Mr Thoba, Mr Chairman), W/O Bojana, Lt Thompson.   We proceeded to Tanaga Police Station where Brig Simandla was held and proceeded to question him.   During this questioning no assaults were committed nor was the Brigadier manhandled in any manner.
		Having completed the interrogation we proceeded to Col Panzi to brief him.   The summary of our report was that the prisoner was denying all participation in the escape of Charles Sebe.   
		Brig Simandla admitted that no guard was placed at the tower post but said this was because the toilet at the base of the tower was out of order.
		Lt Thompson, who had been the head of the interrogation, told us that he had been commanded to conduct another interrogation of Brig Simandla.
		The following day we proceeded from our Bisho offices to Thamaka Police Station to conduct the interrogation.  I noticed during interrogation that aside from Lt Thompson, Makom, myself and W/O Bojala, there were also other members of the Security Police from Mdantsane.   They also took part in the interrogation.   Again Brig Simandla gave us the same replies that he had given the previous day.
		At this stage the Brigadier was in the interrogation room being interrogated by; (i) myself;  (ii)  W/O 
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Bojala;  (iii) W/O Nqandana of the Mdantsane Security;
		(iv) W/O Swelendao of Mdantsane Security;  (v) W/O Shulane of the Mdantsane Security;  (vi)  Lt Funane of the Mdantsane Security;  (vii) Lt Makom;  (viii) Lt Thompson.
		We had known even before commencing this interrogation that we were to put pressure on the Brigadier to answer our questions.   This had been talked about amongst us as being the orders from Col Panzi, to get the truth by assaults from the Brigadier, if needs be.
		When it became apparent that we were not getting any admissions the Brigadier was ordered to undress.  Having undressed he was forced onto his stomach and suffocated with an inner tube of a motor vehicle.   Pressure was applied to the tube which caused him to suffocate.
		Whilst this was happening other persons assisted in pressing him down and others held his feet and arms.  Other people even sat on his back.   This torture carried on for a while and people used to relieve each other and others would go out for fresh air or wash their faces.
		The object of this was to make the Brigadier confess to having had a hand in the escape and possibly gave us leads to the plotters of the escape who might still be in Ciskei. 
		During the torture Lt Funane and Thompson seemed to be in command of the operation.  A cigarette was also used to burn Brig Simandla on his body, in an effort 
		to induce him to speak.   W/O Swelendao was the one who applied the cigarette on him.
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At some stage during the interrogation Brig Simandla lost consciousness and we took him out of the cell to try and revive him.  We feared that he might have been suffocated for too long and would die.
		Cold water was poured over his body to try and revive  him.  After a while he came to his senses. We were now all afraid to continue and he was asked to put his clothes on.
		A report of what had taken place was given to Col Panzi who said we should be careful that the detainee does not die during interrogation.
		Up to the end of the torture Brig Simandla denied complicity in the springing of Charles Sebe from prison."
	Then Mr Chairman he proceeds to deal with the torture of Miss Nomtunzi Msutwana.
"Miss Msutwana was employed by the Department of Post and Telecommunication and based at Bisho.  Miss Msutwana was also one of the persons detained following the escape of Mr Charles Sebe from prison.  Her detention was in terms of the National Security Act of Ciskei.
		Having been taken from her home she was taken for a brief moment to our offices in Bisho where she was informed of her detention.
		After this she was taken to the Zwelitsha Police 
		District Headquarters for interrogation.  I was one of the people selected to interrogate her.  
		On arrival at the District Headquarters she was questioned about her links with Mr Charles Sebe and Illisolomzi.  She denied all association with these 
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people.  During the course of her interrogation Miss Msutwana became tired and refused to answer questions, possibly because some of them were repetitive.
		When it became clear that no information would voluntarily came from her we gave her treatment, similar to what which had been given to Brig Simandla:
		(1), she was forced to take her clothes off;
		(2), a motor car inner tube was pulled around her face to cause her to suffocate;
		(3), she was forced to lie on her back;  
		(4), a substance known as Sipapatxapa(?) was poured on her thighs and onto her vagina.  This caused an itching and irritating tract.  Burns resulted from this;
		(5), when these things were done to her, some of us would press her down to overcome any resistance.  Others held her legs and others held and pressed her arms down.
		The people with whom I did this were:  (i) Sgt Makwetu;  Iii) Sgt Mzimkulu;  (iii) Lt Thompson.
		These things we did caused much pain and discomfort to Miss Msutwana.  She, however, was resolute in denying any participation in the deeds we questioned her about.  She provided no information resulting in the
		escape of Mr Charles Sebe, nor Illisolomzi.
		After we had despaired and stopped the interrogation and torture, Col Panzi entered the interrogation room and asked if she had said anything.  We replied that she was still denying it.  He asked if we had done all that we had to do.   When we replied in the affirmative he kicked her and left the room."
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	Then he deals, Honourable Members of the Committee, with the torture of Miss Maqoma and Mrs Nomoy.
"Miss Maqoma and Mrs Nomoy, who are sisters, were amongst the people detained as a follow-up to the escape of Mr Charles Sebe.  Intelligence reports were to the effect that Mrs Nomoy's husband was a member of Illisolomzi, referred to earlier in my representations.
		Miss Maqoma and Mrs Nomoy's father, Mr Lent Maqoma
		was also known to be a Illisolomzi members.   The detention of these ladies was for them to be questioned on their activities and to get information from them about the agents of Illisolomzi in the Ciskei.
		Information had been received that these ladies had returned to Ciskei after a period of hiding in the Transkei.  The following officers were detained to take part in the arrest of these ladies:  Myself,(that is W/O Thoba Mr Chairman), Lt Thompson, W/O Bojana; and WO Makom.
		I had been the one who received a telephonic instruction from Capt Katangana to pick up men and go 
		and arrest the two women.  The instructions were phoned through to me at home in the evening.  I proceeded to the homes of these Officers and told them of my instructions.
		We drove to the home of these people at Douglasdale Farm, Alice, in two motor vehicles that same night.
		On our arrival at Alice we started at the Police Station where we were to receive further instructions from Capt Katangana.  Indeed Capt Katangana was
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waiting for us together with his twin brother.  W/O Makom, whom we could not get at his home had also travelled with them to Alice.
		From Alice we drove to the home of the Maqoma's.  When we arrived at the home the lights were shining inside and outside the house.  As soon as our vehicle stopped the lights were switched off.  This gave us the idea that the people were alerted to our presence and might try to escape.	
		We decided to surround the house and knock.  Our knocks produced no results.   I decided to kick the door in.  We penetrated the house.  A search was conducted and at different stages Mrs Nomoy and Miss Maqoma were found in the house, hiding.  One person was found under the bed and the other in the wardrobe.
		The two women were slapped with open hands by us in the house and were sworn at and shouted at.  They were still in their sleeping clothes.   They were allowed to wear proper clothing and led out of the house.  
		As they were being led outside, they were being 
		prodded with muzzles of guns on their backs to hasten them up.   
		Outside the house they were loaded into boots of cars and driven to Alice Police Station.
		In Alice Police Station they were kicked, slapped and insulted by us.  They were undressed and kept completely naked whilst being questioned.   A wet towel was used to throttle and suffocate them during interrogation, during questioning.
		I insulted Mrs Nomoy by saying that she is busy going up and down Transkei and Ciskei whilst her husband was
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busy with his girlfriends.  When I said this she wept bitterly.
		After the interrogation we were satisfied that they indeed had information as their admissions about the activities of their father and Mrs Nomoy's husband corresponded with information we had.
		Capt Katanga telephoned Col Panzi and informed him of our success.  Col Panzi instructed that they be taken away to be detained at Dimbaza police cells.
		The trauma suffered by Miss Msutwana and Brig 
		Simandla, Miss Maqoma and Mrs Nomoy is beyond comparison.
		Whether or not they were involved in these activities could never have entitled them to such extreme acts of torture.  
		I have a wife and children whom I love so much.  Often whilst in the service of the Elite Unit I asked myself what helplessness and pain would overcome one 
		if one were to be placed in the same circumstances I placed some of the people who came to our offices for interrogation.
		The years I have sat in jail have given me ample opportunity to think long and hard about how my life has unfolded and the events that overcame it.
		If there is anything that I could wish for more than amnesty it is to be loved, accepted and, hard as it might be, to be forgiven by those I have hurt so much.
	 	The things I did to these victims were things I could not even mention in conversation to my wife and children when they asked how my day had been.
		In spite of all the brutality and the pain I meted 
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out I bore no personal grudge to any of these people.  They were people I would probably have met in like and circumstances different from what we found ourselves in.
		And I ask that it may please this Committee to extend amnesty to me."
	Mr Chairman this affidavit was sworn to and signed by the applicant at the Mdantsane Prison on the 15th March 1997.
	This concludes the written statement that he made in preparation for this, but with the leave of the Committee 
I wish to put certain questions to expand on some items to the applicant.
	Thank you.