MS HARTLE
That's correct.
	And then further Mr Nieuwoudt, at that meeting - we're still looking at page 242, the Chairman comments that:
"He is concerned about the image of the Government with the public who want proper law and order maintained and who wants - has the impression that the State's authority is being undermined and they do not act effectively"
Now, all of these things were said at this meeting and I want to know how it is that Mr Louis le Grange could have come away from that meeting and had an informal discussion with Mr du Plessis and he could have gained the impression - or rather with Colonel Snyman, that he could have gained the impression that the instruction was to eliminate?