EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK
No, Chairperson, my recollection indicates that one of the Makarovs was available from Mr Pienaar.  He could assist us later.  And this includes the handgrenades as well.  We could not get Mr Venter there because somebody had to drive to Piet Retief from the scene and when we left Piet Retief, Mr Venter was not yet there.  So it is confusing in that sense.  I do not want to dispute it with him, but it is confusing.  I cannot give you certainties here.