KROMA
Well there is -  there is not  much that I can reveal you know  with the case of Michael Lucas, but I think to me you  see I - we left Oudtshoorn together with Michael for Uitenhage, precisely because of running away from being detained.  And we landed in Uitenhage where we were caught together and I was present when  Michael was caught.
 And I was further made to make a statement that was implicating Michael in the - in the whole thing.  Michael was tried and sentenced and hanged, you see I  feel as if I  also was part of the whole thing you  know at the end.  So to me because I was -  I was following that case very close - precisely because of  my closeness with Michael firstly and also with his - with his  final being captured.
 And I personally do not think that there was justice in the case as it is.  I am not a lawyer, I mean I don't know precisely what is happening around that  [indistinct] but I think I know  justice when it comes to justice.  And I don't think that there was justice in the case firstly because I think the statement itself was not  made by someone who  wanted to make a statement.  He was made to do a statement.
 I mean the very same thing that they did to  me, that they were able to do to me to  force me into a situation where I had - where I made a statement, they could have easily have done that to Michael because they tortured him that's what they did.
 Then also if one looks at the fact of the case if you go and  [indistinct] it, there was very  little that made them to find Michael guilty.  In fact what made them to find Michael guilty was the fact that the age that he mentioned was not the correct age, they went to test his teeth and find out that the teeth - his teeth  were not of some - somebody who is the very same age as he is.   
 Because he was lying with his age, the State took it that he was lying to everything that he mentioned at the end of the day.  That's how he was hanged. ... end of Tape 2  , side B   ...