MR KINCAID
I think it's safe to say, Mr Chairman, that they would concede that in the Marulia incident there were other items taken which weren't weapons or arms.  It's their case that they didn't take it but all of them during cross-examination conceded that that was possible, that these other items were taken.  That doesn't make them less guilty of robbery because it's - they did rob firearms from Mrs Marulia so from the robbery aspect they were correctly convicted but in my submission the incident of Mr Hansel, the judge was unable to find that any items were taken from Mr Hansel.  He was unable to find that as a fact and in that regard the applicants once again say, well if it happened we don't know anything about it, we can't say that it did, we can't say it didn't, all that we can say is we weren't involved in it.  So I don't know if that answers your query, Mr Chairman.