MR SANDI
And they are both dead ?
MR CARD?: No, no, no, they're alive.  No, no, I.. the, the people that are dead, the mention Hattingh was associated to me by these two gentlemen and Charles Sebe are dead but I still believe that the officer in charge of the security at that stage, is still alive, he's in Pretoria, but the gentleman who was in charge of me, who was an ordinary criminal investigation department..., he's dead.  That was Colonel Heydrech.