ADV DE JAGER
Mr van der Merwe, I would like you to help me.  The dispute in this issue, is it not the fact that Mr and Mrs Phelane were members of the township's board or the council. And the fact that they were members of the council didn't carry the approval of the ANC?  It was contrary to the policy of the ANC at that stage that people should serve on these kinds of councils and as a result of the fact that they did not wish to resign, some of the members of the ANC decided that they should be forced to resign, and that that forcing them which was exercised ultimately led to the death of Mrs Phelane and the souring friendship between the other Phelanes? And is that not the route of this whole matter and what lies at the basis of the amnesty application and that all these other aspects are really side issues when seen against the real matter which we have to decide on today?