MR VISSER
Mr Chairman, normally my attorney's memory is far better than mine.  He recalls it was in the second half of 1997.  You will recall that I pointed out to you that he had made, Wagener had made an appointment to see Taylor in order to fill in missing gaps in his application where it related to applicants for whom he appeared and before that could come about, Mr Taylor had died and he says that was in the second half towards the end of the year, 1987, 1997.