CHAIRPERSON
You see what Mr Lax is getting at Mr Bothma is you've said that as far as you're concerned the interrogation and torture process lasted ten to fifteen minutes, plus minus fifteen minutes, you gave a time and we got the impression that you were fairly confident about what you were saying.  Now you've been asked, you've been told that there was a gap between the first interrogation involving Mr Botha and Mr Gordhan and then the torture and you've got no idea as to how long that period is between the first interrogation and the torture, you've got no idea at all.  Now what Mr Lax is asking you is well, how can you then be so sure in your own mind that the torture lasted for plus minus fifteen minutes when you can't remember the intervening period, the length of the intervening period.