MR MARTINI
...(sound cut off) ... on the issue of proportionality we know that in terms of the Groote Schuur Minute, which was accepted in Government Gazette number 12834, that those principles were attempting give a definition to a political offence.  So the reason why I say that is they merely induciai as Mr Lax raised, I was unaware of the Botha Judgment and I'm indebted to Mr Lax, but it is my submission that are induciai, they are factors to be taken into account in determining if there is a political objective.
	Chairperson, also on the issue of why the Act should be interpreted more liberally and widely I've referred in my Heads, the Act also talks about the Committee having reference to other acts repealed by Section 28 of the Act, all the Indemnity Acts, which similar provisions, and I elaborate upon that that some of them are similar to the Norgaard principle.  That's all dealing with the political issue.
	Now Chairperson, with respect to the requirements which Mr van Zyl must satisfy, it is clear that he was a member of the Security Forces, I cannot see how that ...(intervention)