MR VAN DEN BERG
So it's in that jurisdiction and then the second seems to be in Springs but again it's difficult to tell, you know precisely where the actual incident took place but we have the theft of a motor vehicle, we have the armed robbery of clothing.  I'm not sure that - well the motor vehicle I suppose there's an argument for but I don't know about the clothing.  I would seem to me that if we're dealing with repossession, it's for purposes of equipping the army for the carrying out of it's activities.  I doesn't seem to me that this is certainly what happened in respect of these two previous convictions but one is arguing from a piece of paper.