<UNKNOWN>
He is therefore Mr Chairman, a witness who has intricate knowledge of the subject and the 
counter-revolutionary strategy over a long period.  He was involved with the inception as well as the 
practical implementation thereof.
	In respect of the State Security Council, he also has a broad knowledge of the working thereof and 
he would be able probably as any other person, apart from possibly the most senior politician, to give the 
Committee the general information pertaining to the working of the system.
	If evidence of Captain van Jaarsveld is denied, and the applicants cannot call Captain van 
Jaarsveld as a witness, it would in all probability mean that the applicants will not be able to place that 
evidence before the Committee.  We will still strive to obtain witnesses and get people to assist us in this 
regard, but I want to make it very clear that it is not as in the case of a simple court case, simply phoning 
somebody and asking him to come and assist. There are various problems involved for possible witnesses 
and most of the people are very reluctant to participate in the process.  And that is the reality of the 
problems which the applicants have.