TESTIMONY_GIVER:
  The first - with the first short debriefing in London they were just listening.  They never asked any questions, they just listened to my story, and initially Andre Simon would have stayed with me for 10 days whilst they were assessing my evidence - or what I told them, my information.  But after two days Mr Zuma told Andre Simon that he could leave because it was then already apparently clear to them, out of the information that they already had in their possession, that I was completely open with them.  And then in December, the first week in December 1989, I was debriefed in Bulawayo in full, with all the experts in the different areas, where Mr Matthew Khoza was present, Mr Zuma was present, Mr Daniel Olifant was present.  All experts of the intelligence, I suppose - I accepted, of the areas that I was talking about, who could cross-check on my information, whether I was trying to mislead them, and whether it was open and proving or supporting the 