FERDINAND BARNARD
Very well Chairperson, yes, he said to me that a similar incident had taken place, an incident similar to that of Mr Lubowski had taken place with Mr Chiavelli, the former millionaire.  He said it was a joint project of National Intelligence and Military Intelligence, in which he had also been involved to break Mr Chiavelli financially and that Douw Steyn from Auto & General, who was involved with the ANC, would be next on the list.  All of this took place on that particular evening, when we had the cocaine party.
	Then upon various subsequent occasions, as we worked together on a daily basis, I asked him about it, I asked him about this whole matter, because it puzzled me, the man would have been a priceless asset if he was an informer, there wasn't anybody more suitable.  If one could recruit someone in SWAPO and get such a person to work with the South African government, then this was a priceless asset.  Why did we kill him, why did somebody kill him at least?  He told me upon many occasions when he was sober, while we were working and conducting coordinations, he told me numerous times the man was framed.
	They had the capacity to create bank records for you, they had the capacity to do anything, nothing was impossible for them.