UNKNOWN
Thank you, yes, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, I will be as brief as possible.  Mr Chairman, I would like to ask if possible that the document of the Inkatha Freedom Party, signed by a Mr A Msizi be marked Exhibit A.
	I would also ask your permission to hand in a document marked Exhibit B being the sworn statement of Arnold Huysamen, with your permission, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, this statement is in Afrikaans, I will just summarise quickly what the statement is saying.  This statement was taken on my instructions and on my initiative.  
	This statement is of Mr Huysamen who is a Captain and also was a station commander in the East Rand and in Thokoza during the early '90's to 1995, which is the area which this Panel is covering now in these amnesty hearings.  
	According to this statement, Mr Chairman, between 60 and 100 people were killed at least on a monthly basis and according to this statement it was at that stage even totally impossible to identify any of these victims.  No case dockets could be traced, no inquest records could be traced at all.  According to the statement the violence was at that stage, as it occurred then, was the highest in the land.  This is basically the statement of Mr Huysamen.
	Why I'm handing this in, Mr Chairman, is to show that even the police could not identify the victims.  As far as the reasonable steps that were taken as was requested by Mr Msizi, just to indicate the following: there was a newspaper ad that was placed in the mainstream newspapers.  I don't have the exact dates, Mr Chairman, but I would suggest that it was at least a month before the hearing, which I also would like to suggest is at least the reasonable time for this to be done, whereby victims were invited to attend the hearing, the details of the amnesty applicants' applications were indicated on the ad, the dates of the incident or more or less the dates we have in our possession was also indicated.  
	After that there was a special meeting called by the Amnesty Committee's Investigating Unit here in Johannesburg, which happened two and a half weeks back, where victims were also invited via the radio station and where I can just indicate that not a single victim attended that as well.
	A second radio ad was placed again, whereby people were invited and specifically the victims were invited to attend the amnesty hearing.  To my knowledge not a single victim has attended.  Last Friday, on the 20th of November, a special meeting was convened by Mr Msizi, I suppose it's the same Mr Msizi of the Inkatha Freedom Party, whereby I myself was present as well as one of my other colleagues, Ms Patel, as well as certain members of the Investigation Unit of Gauteng.
	The position was stated again to Mr Msizi, that the problem we're facing here is that not a single amnesty applicant was able to indicate in his application, the written application, any identity of any of the  victims.  
	It's also my contention, Mr Chairman, that even as it stands now not a single applicant who has testified so far could not even identify any individual or victim.  This position was actually agreed and the problem was understood by Mr Msizi.  He said that, or he indicated by then that he would probably make a suggestion on behalf of possible victims.  
	Now if you look at his letter he is also referring to so-called, he suspects that certain people were victims.  He's also talking about possible victims.  He also indicated to us then, and I'm sorry to say it because he's not present here, but he was fully aware, was made fully aware of the difficulty in tracing specific victims.
	We indicated that we do have certain HRV or Human Rights Violations victims statement but they could not be connected to any of the incidents that were related in the amnesty applications.
	I can also furthermore state that the Investigation Unit of the Amnesty Committee even went so far as by again interviewing specific applicants to get more detail from them.  No information could submitted by these applicants.  Further particulars were also asked, not only by myself but also by the analyst who prepared these applications.  Further information was asked specifically from the ANC office who had the similar problem as we had to obtain any information of any victims.
	Then I can just - it's basically my final submission, Mr Chairman, that I'm of the contention that all the reasonable steps were taken in order to secure any information regarding the victims.  I was also informed by the Investigators that a lot of these attacks happened at night and even Mr Msizi consented that the only people, the only way that these people could be identified as so-called Inkatha members, was the fact that they were wearing red bandannas.  We don't even know - we could factually not confirm whether or not they actually were Inkatha members.
	No case docket could be traced at all, no inquest records could be traced.  I spoke to the investigator himself and if needs be I will call him as a witness.  He advised me yesterday that he went personally through all the inquest documents that were available in Thokoza in different police stations and no information could be taken from those inquest records as it stands.
	I can just state that yes, we did get certain paper clippings from that date but even in the paper clippings from that date, Mr Chairman, no identity of any victims were indicated even in those newspapers at that time.  	It's basically my contention, Mr Chairman, that all reasonable steps were taken to locate and identify these victims in order to make sure that they are attending and made them aware of their right to be here and oppose the applications.
	If we also look at the document of Mr Msizi, Mr Chairman, he's basically indicating there also that he is opposing the applications.  I'm not quite sure on which grounds he is opposing it but to be fair to Mr Msizi, he also indicated at the meeting we had, that he was of the view that they are going to oppose the applications.  I indicated to him that he is more than welcome to attend and make further submissions.  
	The one thing I can say, I have indicated to him and I also made arrangements, that he must be placed in possession of all the documents I have in my possession because that is his right.  I see in his letter he is saying that he didn't have the information, but certain steps were taken to make sure he has the information.  So I'm not quite sure what the position of Mr Msizi is.  He didn't contact me at all so far.  I'm not quite sure where he is or what the position is, but as far as the victims' identities and the steps that were taken, Mr Chairman, I'm of the view that as it was stipulated in the Act, all reasonable steps were taken to identify these victims.  That's what I have to say about this incident, Mr Chairman, thanks.