ADV LOURENS
Yes, that is so, but then I would rely once more on the youth of these perpetrators at the time and their obvious lack of training, their obvious lack of not having more senior leadership, for example, or a clear cut plan.  This was clearly something that arose out of a situation in the township that morning where they got together.  Somebody said, oh, there are guns at this farm, let us go to the farm, we can get guns and we can do something about it.  The, it is clear that Mr Maxam was the leader of the group, but in so far as that has any real meaning given these other factors, I would ask that the Committee then to bear in mind that although those were the intentions to make sure that nothing goes wrong and, as you put it now, that in a way they probably were a rudderless ship, if I can use analogy with, and things started going wrong as they do sometimes in these, well, often in these kind of situations.