` ::::: Aha!  Thank you for explaining.  So Maven is the ``magician's magician``  though he doesn't have the public recognition of the others, he is an industry-respected innovator and mentor, and those are the criteria that you use to define ``great``.  We should definitely work on an article about him then.  If you can pile up references on his discussion page (or feel free to take a stab at writing the article itself, if you're comfortable you can stick to WP:NPOV).  Now, my next question is one of terminology.  What word do you use in the industry to distinguish between the publicly-known magicians such as Copperfield, Penn & Teller, Siegfried & Roy, Doug Henning, etc., to define their fame?  If they're not on a list of ``great``, what list would you put them on?   `