  :::You are promoting a false notion: that the connection from Werner Erhard to Landmark has been removed from the article, when in fact the lead of the article has always explicitly mentioned that Landmark evolved from materials purchased from Werner Erhard. What has been in discussion here is your use of negatively charged language to describe those materials.  :::Regarding religion, it's telling that you throw a blizzard of sources and quotes onto this talk page, and yet you still can't find reliable sources to make the case you want to make. You begin with Barker, who simply puts Landmark as one name in an extremely long list. As I've noted to you many times before, Barker has said repeatedly that she puts human potential movements on her NRM lists not because she thinks they are necessarily religious, but she wants them to remain within her field of study. This academic inclusiveness is fine for her, but more than problematic for us as a describer of what is actually religious.  :::Many of your other 'proofs' also involve similar scholars putting Landmark's name as one in a long list, often tellingly referring to est rather than Landmark, or proving their only passing familiarity with Landmark by getting its name wrong, as some of your sources do here.  :::It's telling that the one source that seems to fully make the case that you want to make is not a reliable one - it's from someone who is not a credentialled scholar, and doesn't belong as a source to any Wikipedia article. Moreover, it's telling that this inexpert source argues in this paper against the claims made by reliable sources that Landmark is not religious in nature, and that even she can't actually make an argument that Landmark contains any overt religious elements, rather, she argues that the intense, cathartic, emotional experiences resemble the experience of religious revelation - that profound self-actualization is the modern equivalent of religious enlightenment. This modern 'religion of the self' theory, which does an end run around requiring anything relating to god or the supernatural to call something 'religious', is a minority POV inside religious scholarship.  :::Another long quote you provide shows how this minority POV self-religion theory works - it defines 'attempts to find the sources and potential for development and meaning in life simply from within the individual' (from one of your sources) as inherently religious. This is a startling claim on the face of it, and while interesting, isn't supported by the majority of scholars. In fact, most top scholars support a definition of new religious movements which involves explicitly religious groups, with specific belief in deities and/or supernatural entities. I put together a chart by top scholar of their views on NRM definitions after the last RFC on the list of NRM's talk page:  :::https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:List_of_new_religious_movements  :::The only scholar or two whose definitions could include personal development companies like Landmark are again, those who use a broad definition of any philosophical group that they wish to study. Again, this is fine for study, it's not fine for encyclopedic definitions. Chryssides makes a lengthy and explicit case for why Landmark is not religious in nature, and yet he has them on a list because he wants to study them. This alone should make one pause from making claims about groups based on their inclusion in such lists.     