` :::I know, and as you say, in principal I agree with you. But I think we should do this slowly, carefully, and completely this time. Make no mistake, consensus is definitely against including the irrelevant material in question, but this has become so tendentious a topic, absorbing so much time to deal with near-continuously, that very little of substance has gone into the article for quite some time. I think the only way to get it firmly, thoroughly finished is to gain such overwhelming consensus that it becomes impossible to continue arguing for a while. If this requires a long process of dispute resolution and eventual administrative intervention, so be it. Once it is done, it could be placed in the FAQ with admin blessings, and from then on, dealt with summarily. At this point, I'd rather go the slow, laborious route than the one that allows any wikigaming or false claims.    ====Comments==== I'm putting this in a separate section because I want to leave the one above to accrue people's thoughts and opinions. Now then...  On #2: If Obama loses the election, the campaign efforts of his opponents will demonstrably have had a significant effect on his life, and therefore would merit more prominent placement in the articles about that life; a prime example is John McCain's biography, which notes the smears (illegitimate black child, etc.) that contributed to his loss in 2000. But until then, the stuff about Ayers is simply campaign innuendo and mudslinging, much more appropriate for the campaign article. So my question to those of you who disagree with #2 is this: What exactly is the pertinence of discredited campaign claims to Obama's life story at this time? In all seriousness, I don't get it. There are entire branches of his family that aren't mentioned in the article, and yet are presumably more important to his life story than these claims.  On #3: This one is a simple matter to prove or disprove. If a reliable news organization, outside of the context of campaign claims, has discovered evidence that links Obama and Ayers more deeply  for example, evidence that Obama was Ayers' protegee, or that Obama secretly admires Ayers' past  that would make all the difference. Those of you who disagree with #3, on which news articles are you relying for that disagreement? Certainly, news articles that lend credence to the Obama-Ayers connection, as suggested, may theoretically appear in the future. But we can only reach consensus on what's currently available. If such a news article appears, #3 would of course need to be dropped. If such a news article exists now, I'd like to see it, but if it's an opinion blog, editorial, or story from a biased source, please understand that it doesn't pass muster here.  On #5: Please see my responses on #2 and #3. If I've changed your mind, then I suppose you agree now on #5. If not, I'd like to see your thoughts on my responses above.  Specific to Noroton: I wasn't responding to your argument. I was making a proposal for consensus.  `