Widebody; Low Wing; 2 Turbojet Eng
Flight Crew Last 90 Days 200; Flight Crew Total 20000; Flight Crew Type 3500
Confusion; Distraction; Time Pressure; Training / Qualification; Communication Breakdown
Deviation / Discrepancy - Procedural Published Material / Policy
General None Reported / Taken
Chart Or Publication; Equipment / Tooling; Procedure; Weather; Company Policy
Departure ATIS D was giving Runway 09R departure; wind 070/15; 1;500 meters in moderate rain and snow. Temperature +1C. During flight planning; LHR Ops Controller advised that deicing procedures would be conducted using Type 2; Kilfrost 75/25 mix. I was surprised two step deice Type 1; [and] then anti ice Type 4 was not being used. At the plane; we were advised the deicing would be done on gate prior to pushback. The cockpit Cold Weather card does not have information for Type 2 Kilfrost 75/25 mix; only 100/0 mix. I asked Ops to clarify the fluid being used; as the generic 75/25 holdover time in moderate precipitation was only 15 minutes according to the table. At this point I was concerned that we were not legal to take off. We were dealing with a Cold Weather card that did not reflect the fluid mix being used; and the only 75/25 numbers were not going to permit me to taxi to Runway 09R; which I thought from start of deicing to pushback to taxi would be at least 30 minutes. Deicer on flight interphone had to be questioned several times by me to extract information after deicing complete. The info given was commenced deicing at XA:40Z Kilfrost 75/25. Again we cannot interpret the holdover time correctly from the Cold Weather card. The Ops Controller was contacted; and he said the cards we had in the cockpit were 'tosh' and had been superseded by new holdover cards that he was in possession of; and he offered to bring a faxed copy to the cockpit; but the jetway was pulled and we were underway; I also wondered about how official these holdover numbers were; hence my desire to involve our Dispatcher. I asked him to contact our Dispatcher to coordinate the numbers we needed; and to ascertain our legality to depart. We ended up as we taxied; having the IRO calling dispatch on SATCOM to explain the situation. I was now getting thoroughly uncomfortable about our legality to depart; but was satisfied we were not accumulating any frozen precipitation; as the snowfall was decreasing; although the ATIS still reported 'moderate' snow. Dispatch agreed they did not have any revised holdover times available; and at this point Operations called us we neared the departure point; to say that in fact we had been given a two step process; of Kilfrost 75/25; followed by Kilfrost 100%. That puzzled me; as in two separate Type 2 applications; but it made us legal according to the tables we had now. We made a nose inspection and all agreed we were both legal and safe to take off; but dismayed with the communication and coordination process. I think the deicer was an outsourced company; and not especially familiar with our procedures. I do think we need to be absolutely certain that LHR deice company are using correct [company] procedures.
After an EGLL de-icing at +1C with moderate rain and snow; the crew questioned one application of Kilfrost 75/25 with no holdover calculation and their takeoff legality but were then told they also had Kilfrost 100%.