EMB ERJ 170/175 ER/LR
Flight Crew Air Transport Pilot (ATP)
Communication Breakdown; Situational Awareness; Training / Qualification
Deviation / Discrepancy - Procedural FAR; Deviation / Discrepancy - Procedural Published Material / Policy; Ground Event / Encounter Other / Unknown
Flight Crew Took Evasive Action; General Release Refused / Aircraft Not Accepted
Human Factors; Procedure; Weather
I had deadheaded in for my O.E. FAA observation and the check airmen had brought the aircraft in. We were all running late due to weather and downline operational issues. The crew that were displaced due to my checkride were deadheading in the cabin. All went well up until we had completed deicing. We received the post deice/anti ice report and were in the process of starting the engines when we received a call from the cabin. The deadheading Captain was not happy with the state of the wing surface post deice. We discussed the issue; shut down the engines and called the deice team to come and give us an inspection. They came back and told us the wings were clear and we were clear to leave. Still not happy we had the Observing Captain do an inspection from the cabin. Upon his return he informed us the upper surface at the tip ends looked as though a bucket of water had been poured and left to freeze. The type 4 fluid just did not look correct. From my position I was able to just see 1 foot or so of the right wing and understood what he was talking about.With this information we came to the conclusion a second deice/anti-ice was needed. After a great deal of discussion we were told to move to the other end of the concourse in order to allow another carrier aircraft to get to the gate and they would send the deice crew down to us. We did so and upon contact with deice man were given a lesson on how anti ice fluids work. Keeping his patience well; the Captain explained our experience level between us and that we understood the properties but for safety would like to be re-sprayed. This was done to our satisfaction and we departed with a greater delay. There is no real event here where I believe we did anything unsafe or violated any SOPs; however I wanted to be sure this event was documented to ensure it was seen by safety individuals who could use it later on. I can only commend the deadheading crewmembers for their vigilance and say how impressed I am to work with the Professional crews I have found here on my New Certificate. Considering this was my Check ride to be released into the system for revenue flying; I feel more and more confident I can put my faith in the people I am dealing with. My recommendation would be for the ground crews to be given an opportunity to see our view of things from the restriction we have and how very different the airframe appears in the lighting we have available. They need to be a little more understanding of the fact we are putting safety first and cannot just go; when in our opinion it does not look correct.
An EM-175 Captain refused to depart the ramp for takeoff until the aircraft was clear of wing ice; which required three de-ice fluid applications.