B767 Undifferentiated or Other Model
Flight Crew Air Transport Pilot (ATP)
Flight Crew Last 90 Days 180; Flight Crew Total 21750; Flight Crew Type 4000
Other / Unknown
ATC Issue All Types; Deviation / Discrepancy - Procedural Published Material / Policy; Inflight Event / Encounter Fuel Issue; Inflight Event / Encounter Weather / Turbulence
Air Traffic Control Issued New Clearance; Flight Crew Landed As Precaution; Flight Crew Diverted
Human Factors; Procedure; Weather
We were flight planned on the HYPER 4 arrival. Due to a line of thunderstorms on the east side of IAD; we were radar vectored to the west side of the airport and told to expect the GIBBZ arrival.  As the GIBBZ arrival was not appropriate for our direction of flight; we expected to be radar vectored south of IAD for a visual approach to 1C. When transferred to Potomac Approach; we heard an aircraft refuse a heading for weather. They were then issued a hold at MRB; after which the aircraft replied they would take the heading.  The controller commented that things work better when they 'negotiate.'  There were scattered thunderstorms in the area; and we expected to deviate around a few cells and get into IAD without difficulty.  We requested a left deviation around weather.  ATC asked if we could deviate right instead; and we agreed.  We were told to expect a left turn in a few miles.  This was adjacent to the weather we were deviating around and I replied we would take a look to see when we could turn back.  We were given a left turn directly into the weather and refused the turn.  We were then given a clearance direct MRB to hold with a 45 minute EFC.   We could not accept a turn to MRB because of the weather.  We continued to try to get a turn towards IAD and were asked if we were declaring an emergency.  We were not. While this was going on; we were determining bingo fuel and requested Dispatch to enlist the help of the ATC coordinator to get us some priority into IAD.  At this time; the IAD weather was fine for arrivals and departures; we just needed to get to the final approach course.  All 3 pilots felt we were given punitive vectors for not accepting a turn into an area which would have contained at least moderate turbulence. That is; we did not 'negotiate.' We switched to Potomac and continued to receive vectors.  We received a message from Dispatch saying ATC would take us with no hold.  We could see IAD clearly but could not get a turn towards the airport.  Potomac asked how long we could hold and how much fuel we had on board.  We asked for the distance to the airport via their proposed vectoring and it was more than 60 miles.  By this time we were approaching our bingo fuel and if we continued to IAD would be left with no diversion options.  We diverted and landed uneventfully with 7.5K fuel remaining. There were thunderstorms in the IAD vicinity; but this was an ATC vs. a weather diversion.  When we finally arrived in IAD; we had been on the plane for more than 12+30 hours. ATC needs to realize that safety is our number one priority and we cannot take vectors into convective activity for their convenience.
Our flight was approaching a CB cluster that was approximately 3x8 miles in dimension. We requested a left/east deviation but Potomac Approach wanted us to deviate right/west of the CB's. We complied with his request. Halfway through the deviation; Potomac wanted us to make a left turn that would have taken us through the weather incurring at least moderate turbulence. We responded that we were unable. We only needed another 3-5 miles before we could comply with his instructions. The controller asked another aircraft if he would accept a turn through the weather. The pilot responded affirmative. The controller then said if we did not accept the turn he would issue holding instructions. We again said we could not accept the turn. The controller immediately started issuing holding instructions directing us to MRB VOR. Included in the holding instructions was a 45 minute EFC.  At that point he handed us to another controller.The second controller stated she; 'Guesses she is going hold us and did not give further instructions.' She also stated that Dulles is; 'Kinda having a little difficulty due to weather.' Immediately after she said that I could see the Dulles airport from my cockpit window and the sun was literally shining on the field. The winds from the Tower were from the NW at approximately 10 knots. The controller asked how much fuel we had; how long we could hold; and what was our alternate. After further delaying vectors this controller asked; 'If we were ready to come back to Dulles?' Kind of odd since Potomac was the one responsible for driving us around the Northern Virginia countryside. At this point; the only reason we were being delayed was that Potomac Approach would not allow us to proceed to the airport. The Captain was in communication with Dispatch and the three pilots in the cockpit were discussing the fuel situation. After continued 'delaying vectors' of the second controller we decided that we had to proceed to our alternate. The diversion and landing was uneventful. After landing we learned that Dispatch had lost operational control with us and did not know where we were. The loss of control lasted for approximately 25 minutes. This occurred during a dispatcher shift change and the Dispatcher noted that he had difficulty signing into the computer system.Aviation safety is not a negotiation. Either the operation is safe or it is not. We do not operate on the margins for the benefit of ATC. I firmly believe the holding clearance was punitive for not accepting the controller's instructions. Why do we need a 45 minute EFC to fit us back into the traffic flow? I have never heard a controller say she was told to hold us without any further instructions. Why would she later ask if we were ready to proceed to Dulles when that was our intention all along? Weather did not force us to divert a B767; Potomac Approach did.
B767 flight crew in bound to IAD describes a diversion caused by refusing to accept a vector through a small thunderstorm.