Career Hacking Village - Key Ingredients for the Job Interviews (virtual or Face-2-Face)
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Wattanasin, Roy
This presentation focuses on the major key areas to become more successful in your interviews. This includes (6) items: preparation, looking great, resume-review, confidence, note-taking and asking back. This talk will include both considerations when having a virtual or face to face interview
 Welcome back to the hacking career of Village. We're just so excited that we've had so many great presentations these two days. I really want to thank all of our speakers for taking the time to pre-record these discussions and then being available in Discord to be able to answer your one-on-one questions. Today we have a good friend from the Twitter sphere, Roy, who is going to talk a little bit about the key ingredients for job interviews, which are very important these days because once you get through all of the search and you finally get that interview, you want to make sure you're on top of your game for that. So, Roy, take it away. Thank you. Thank you very much, Kathleen, and actually the career hacking village. This is, I think, this is the first time this year. So first off, thanks to Kathleen and the entire team for having this opportunity as well. And also just wanted to thank everyone for tuning in today. So yeah, first off, going to kind of talk about the key ingredients for job interviews, whether virtual or face-to-face. The first thing that I always like to do in all of my presentations is that I don't accept responsibility for any of the liable for any of the actions or if I have any inaccurate information as well. And of course, the presentation doesn't represent any of the organizations that I have worked for. And of course, this is not, this is absolutely not a one-size-fits-all at all. And again, it depends. It is very contingent on the individual or individuals as well. So first off, yeah, who am I? Healthcare, professional, et cetera. Yeah, basically, I taught at Brandeis University of over 10 years, created the program there. And yeah, I really enjoy data forensics, instant response, healthcare security, application security, and IoT, Internet of Things. Obviously, the picture that you see on the right bottom is actually not my picture. There is a great website based on machine learning and artificial intelligence that actually creates different images of people based on, you know, different things as well. And it's not a real person at all. So you can actually go to that link to get more information. So the agenda for today is actually I thought that these were the steps in regards to preparing for the job interview or being more successful at it. Number one, we're going to talk about the preparation stage. Number two, about looking great because you always have to look good. Doesn't matter if it's virtual or a face-to-face presentation, resume review, we'll talk about that too, and really exuding confidence. More confidence, the better as well. And also talk about some note-taking strategies as well. And also asking back. Not only do you keep answering questions, you should also ask a lot of questions too. We'll talk about that too. And I actually added one more thing too. And the other one was trying again. We'll talk more about that and really address any specific questions as well. So first off, during the preparation stage, you think about when you're on engagements or a project or actually, let's say you're doing some kind of lead team and red team and penetration test, etc. You want to really do a reconnaissance on the opportunity or the job offer. Remember that it's not a one-size-fits-all. Things that are advertised in the job description are sometimes not always the things that you are the candidates or the individual is going to do. So you want to prepare as much as possible. So like what I like to say is kind of doing your reconnaissance on the opportunity, talking to people inside the company, or if you know anyone in your social networking profiles, etc. or your conferences, talk to people that may know people in the company. Because chances are, you know, you'll get more, a much more in-depth overview of the company and the opportunity that you are applying for. Also at the same time, for those of you who are virtual, just like as we are having physical face-to-face conversations during the interview, etc., for those of you that are virtual, especially during these times, you want to ensure that you test all your equipment, lighting, etc., and do that ahead of time too. And also at the same time, preparing yourself not only on the specific technical questions and non-technical requirements. I like to call this like doing your homework. Think about, think outside the box and also try to look at the different non-technical skills like the communication skills, teams building skills, additional leadership skills as well. If you don't have the experience, you can substitute it by relevant coursework. For those of you in school, etc., or part-time, and some other opportunities like taking a class online, for example, etc. Remember that presenting to different audiences is a very key ingredient, not only presenting to technical people, but also presenting to non-technical people as well. And also, in addition to doing your reconnaissance on the opportunity or opportunities, performing your own risk assessments on the opportunity, job offer, etc., requirements, and giving it a grade. Because just like as we're doing risk assessments on, because every security center is all about risk assessment, even though there's so many different areas in it. Give it a grade. Maybe you have kind of like a spreadsheet that talks about the kind of the different things, location, culture, environments, interviewing with different people that are there. External factors, for example. And other things, unknowns as well, things like that. Next is always about looking great. I can't stress this enough, but always trying to look good. Present yourself in a way that even if the requirement says, just dress casually, you probably, you always probably want to show up in something that you're comfortable in, a business casual suit. It all depends as well. Even if it's virtual or face-to-face, remember, especially during these times when there are a lot of these virtual interviews now, you also want to be prepared for that in terms of looking your best, looking at the lighting, looking at your camera, looking at your sound as well. And practice makes perfect. So the more you do it, the more you get better at it as well. Next is also talking about the kind of like the resume review. And I like to say that this, the resume review can be in different parts. It can be kind of the first step is really tailoring your resume, even before applying for the job application or the job, for the job opportunity, for example, tailoring your resume so that it actually shows what you've accomplished. I always like to say that honesty is the best policy. If you don't know something, you can always say that it's something that you want to learn and also that maybe there are some additional courses or open source projects and software that actually you can contribute to. It shows a lot of passion. It also, at the same time, you know, I also like to say is that the resume gets you into the door, but the interview, interviews are where the interviewers and the organization gets to know you. And it's a great thing too. And what I also like to say is, again, as an individual that also reviews a lot of resumes when building the team, etc. You want to do something that people haven't done before. Obviously, you want to follow all of the resume guidelines. For example, the number of pages, etc. based on your experience as well. But also at the same time, thinking outside the box trying to do something that's different. So for example, when let's say you apply for, give you example, let's say you apply for engineering job. Obviously, there are going to be a lot of engineering requirements and technical skills and verbal and communication skills as well. As someone that looks at resumes, I would say a lot too as well and looking to build a team. I would also stress that adding different things that can have you stand out from another individual because when you think about it, the organizations are always looking at potential candidates. What are some things that can make you stand out? For example, on number one, maybe you may not have as much experience, but it's a great opportunity. It looks like it's a great opportunity. The first thing that you can do is participate in either conferences or volunteering or other projects, especially specifically open source projects that you can contribute to. It shows a lot of passion as well. And of course, motivation. Another thing that you can do is also including taking courses, especially, you know, I love the stress a lot of these edX courses. So many opportunities now, especially now during the pandemic that are free, they can take as well something that you're learning to build your skill set basically. And remember that as ID professionals or if basically you're professionals, and just like every other industry or profession, we're always developing our skills. And one of the main ingredients that I look for, maybe in my opinion, is what stands out, thinking outside the box. A lot of people are going to answer a question this way or have the resume this way. So take a look at the job description and try to do like your own assessment in terms of what you can do and what you cannot do. And again, adding different things that where it shows more passionate and motivation as well to do the job, etc. Next, I want to talk about really exuding covenants. Obviously, it really depends if you're introverts or extroverts, but with preparation comes making sure that you understand the roles and responsibilities of the job. Not only the job, but the company. What's the, what's the business, what's the organization's business mission, for example, let's say for a healthcare company, and maybe it's all about patients. So for example, when you're doing your job, you, or when you're part of the team doing your job. Obviously, you don't, you don't want to be like a, a no team to everything. It also, it has to support the business. And so look at the business mission as well. And educating yourself about not only the job details itself, but learning additional skillsets, etc. as well to apply on their job. And also preparing your questions to ask different people. This comes with confidence and experience to, especially as you are doing more interviews, depending on the job opportunities. And now there are a lot of jobs opportunities. So, prepare your questions, ask different questions of different people. Don't only answer those questions, but as you're doing your homework, getting more information about the company. For example, in the first stage, reconnaissance stage, getting, getting to know people that are in the organization. Maybe you may, maybe there might not be like a direct link, but you can get some questions, etc. And then talk about more of the questions that you should ask as well. And also really, when asking the questions, you want to ask open ended questions so that it makes just like the interviewer or interviewers. Most of the time it's going to be interviewers. They're going to ask you open, open ended questions because it doesn't have it. The interviewers don't want to have to see or don't want to hear like a yes or no answer. They want you to kind of like a scenario based questions chiming in how you think how you apply, how you fix this problem. How do you negotiate when you have conflicts as well. So, as a job applicants or applicants, you also want to ask these open ended questions to, to have the organization open up and give you more information not a yes or no. Because it will give you a lot of information in terms of, is this the right opportunity for, for, for you, or, or, or, or, or what you're trying to do or pursue, for example, because remember that just because the job description says something doesn't mean that it's going to be 100% what you will be doing for example, and I'm not going to get into the specific job titles, etc. But there's been a lot of things where there's you know a lot of misrepresentation around job titles, etc. But that's another, that's going to be another talk, but just, just really when, when you're building your confidence. And again it comes with preparation, etc. And thinking outside the box, you can have all your pre can open ended questions to ask the interviewers for example. So one of the things that you know that I do, for example, when preparing for the interview, as you know I do my reconnaissance about the company. But usually what happens is that when the interviewer scheduled, for example, human resources or the, you know, the people culture team, etc. They send a list of all the people that are going to be interviewing you. So one of the things that I like to do just like is actually go to do a reconnaissance and actually see what job this, the potential interviewers will do, because when HR human resources sends you that list. It actually shows the individual and actually the person's title as well. You can kind of do your reconnaissance to see how long the individual or interviewers have been in the company, for example, if it's advertising there. And also you can see kind of like some of the projects as well as your as your, kind of like creating these questions to. So again, it's all about when you do your homework, you have more confidence to ask these questions, but without doing your homework you won't be able to ask the questions. So that's what my challenge to everyone is basically to ask those questions, do your homework so that you can ask those questions so that you can see if this, if this opportunity or requisition is the right one for you. Next, we'll be talking about note taking. So, first off, I really like, I think now, based on the electronic era, era, etc. I like to do your gadgets, etc. as well but make sure that you know again, maybe it's on vibrates so it doesn't impact your interviews, etc. I still like the traditional notebook or extra piece of paper, regarding the questions that you want to ask each individual. So what I usually do during interviews is, of course, bring as the applicants, I bring empty sheet of paper in the front and also in the back. I actually have all of these open ended challenge questions, open ended questions for the interviewers as well. And because I cover it up because number one, you know, it's really like a matter of choice as well. But that way, the interviewers don't see that as well. But then because your blank page will be about taking your notes, really following up for what things you want to ask the interviewer or maybe it's a follow up in terms of what the interviewer said as well. The reason that I take notes is just so that we remember, remember what happened, but just as well. And again, it's like a CYA cover your butt opportunity as well. It's not he said, she said, etc. So that it's all captured in your notes as well. But I also like to say that, again, note taken is a great, great thing because sometimes during the actually many times during the interviews, etc. There's going to be times where you interview with so many people, typically now for the, you know, depending on how big, or how big the companies are, or also how noble they are, typically for any information security position, and depending on what, what role you are going to be taking in the organization. Typically, you're going to be interviewed by at least one or three people, or the more senior the position, seniority, the position, the more people as well. For example, some of these I've actually, I remember this many years ago, but don't quote me on this, but many years ago, probably when I was actually interviewing for like a security analyst, security engineer position. I interviewed for healthcare hospital position. I interviewed for at least at least about five people, and it took most of the whole day, for example. So just prepare for that. And again, you're not taking what will come in really handy because this will also not only help you in determining if this is the right fit or the right role and to follow up with any questions that you have or any questions that the interviewers have for you, where you might not know the answer, but for example, it also helps in into generating after every job interview, for example, usually it depends. So there's no specific guidance on it but send like a thank you email, for example, and the note taking will really help because then you know what you talk to each interviewer or interviewers and you can actually put some of this information in terms of your thank you notes, you know, blah, blah, blah, give you example. Thank you very much, Aaron, Rob, Chris, Mike, Leanne for the interview today. I really appreciated the time that you took and then you can kind of can say, you know, Leanne talked about this blah, blah, blah. And it shows you also as like a summary as well to kind of help you close the deal on the interview. Now, I also wanted to add, I added this because, well, actually, I, the next one is that it was the one I added but asking back, don't just have, don't just basically answer questions as well. It's kind of like a give and take. So because remember that the interviewers or the interview were is trying to ascertain if you're the right individual or the right fit for the team. So don't just ask the questions you want to kind of give and take in terms of having the interviewers ask you questions. And remember in the preparation stage, as you're creating already created these questions based on who you're going to be interviewing with, you want to ask them questions too because this is your best time to make sure that this is the right opportunity for you. Is it really true is the job description really, really, really match what what they're what is in the job description, for example, is it the right culture, is it the right environment, is it the right team, is it the right people, is it the right mission, is this something that you really believe in, for example, and like I'm not going to read it but at the end like getting the getting to really know the real company. Obviously, I'm going to say, again, this is just my opinion but the job description sometimes is probably most sometimes just a copy from from from somewhere else as well. And sometimes the job description is not what you actually sign up for. And again, this is not a one size fits all but it depends on the company as well. So some of these example questions we're going to talk about that I don't have everything here but remember where I mentioned about asking open any questions. So the one thing is that some of these questions can be you want to you want to find out is this too good to be true. Some of these open questions could be, how long was the security team, been in place for example, was there information security manager. Why he he or she, what was at the company that they leave was the reason, etc. These some additional questions that you can ask. And again, you can tell your questions on how much information you want as well. So for example, why did some of these questions might be, why did the entire security team all these is this a new security team is is the security manager, who you will be reporting to for example, or it manager. Why did he or she leave, for example, other questions might be, again, remember it's all open ended. How long has the has people specifically been there it doesn't only have to be about your specific team as well. Especially think about remember that you're doing your, your reconnaissance doing your homework during your preparation, looking great as well. But, you know, making sure, like, one of the things you can do is, you know, especially your open and the questions is asking, not only who do you report to, but also asked about like your manager, or your security leadership team, who they report to as well. So you can ask like let's say, sometimes just to give you example, the security manager probably reports to let's say a CISO, or let's say the CISO or every security manager reports to CISO. You probably want to find out who the CISO reports to is it the CIO, is it privacy officer is the CEO, etc. It really depends. It's not a one size fits all that way you can actually tell your question and say, hey, you are you won't ask it like that but hey, how come the CIO was only here for this amount of time has there been some transition has there been some kind of reorganization as well. So, remember that it's asking back it's not only asking questions, but you also want to find this is your best opportunity to to to find if this is the right opportunity for you. And it is something that that resonates with you as well. Next is really this is something that I added as well because I was just thinking of things that, okay, what what happens if you do all this, and you still don't succeed. And don't worry because this is always. It's kind of like a think of it as like a date, I guess, if the date doesn't go, it all depends. So, when you're doing this, even if you do all the. These are again these are not a one size fits all. But as you're doing this, obviously, these different strategies and tactics will help you, you as the individual job applicants become more successful, but remember that it doesn't always work. And again, especially these different companies. Please don't despair. Try again, even things that let's say it's a company that you're really interested in or organization or etc. Or it's a great opportunity to the best. Don't worry. And again, I think I won't quote it but there's been many security professionals and engineers where their first choice isn't always the choice that it was set out to be as well. So, take this as like a grain of salt. But again, learn from what you've done lessons learned, etc. You know, more interviews also gives more experience and confidence, and also remember and again, it also depends on the organization as well. Some organizations, based on how you interview, you will get kind of like a very, you know, could be like a big summary sometime. But some of the organizations if you ask nicely as well, especially with your thank you notice as well, you can also get some feedback on on what were some of the feedback things that were a pro, a pro that work really well, and things that did not work very well as well based on the different interviewers as well. And again, at first you don't just like that other song right I think it was from a Leah I believe at first you don't succeed, try again as well. But take this as a, you know, take this as a learning experience and know that you won't always be successful. I've known people at when they actually applied to Google. Some of these really, you know, really great organizations as well, or brand name recognition. And they didn't get in. And of course, they didn't, they tried three times, you didn't get in, but you know, after either to a merger position, for example, they actually ended up being at the same company, etc. I also want to say here is that don't burn your bridges as well. Again, obviously treat people as you would like to be treated as well. And again, companies may not give you all the feedback that you that you may want to hear as well. But again, remember from those open ended questions, etc. to, and usually remember what I mentioned about like making a risk assessment on the, the interview or the company before you actually interview with the company, you can also have like make a grade and a risk assessment in terms of the grade around how your into how your interview went with this interviewer, for example, would you work well with him or her or the team, for example, would you not work well as well. So you can kind of get good and get a good example. You know, again, it is probably only just from your own perspective, you probably want their own, their perspective as well. But it gives you a good overview and a good remembering, remembrance of what happens during the interview as well. Now, just kind of like putting it all together. Remember that. And again, this is not a one size fits all at all. Really. And again, these probably can be done in different different steps as well. It's not like step one, two or three. But I really believe that, you know, preparing having the preparation, having the preparation is key. And that kind of like doing your homework, doing your homework, right, just like, just like the Patriot says do your job, do your job, your job preparation comes with preparation comes all the additional confidence that you have, asking the different questions that you have for them as well, and also kind of reciprocating to see if it's the right fit for you as well. Number two really talks about looking great. And just looking your best as well, wearing some kind of business casual even though there's some other minimum requirement just looking your best doesn't matter of its virtual or face to face as well. And the three talking about the resume review process, this is probably beforehand and then of course, after hand as well, because one of the things that I actually didn't mention and, and so I have the paper with your note taking. You have you have the blank paper. You also have the open ended questions that you have for the interviewers, but also under that, you also have your resume as well. Maybe you can have additional. Most of the time, the organization will always have the resume, but this is something that you can pull out so that you can reference as well. I've also known some other candidates where, especially when they're going for like different positions or like a higher opposition, etc, or a position that's just out of their league, for example, again, remember it's about thinking, thinking outside the box doing something different. Most people are going to bring the resume, etc. What can you do to bring, what can you do to do something different. A lot of people now they actually bring in like different presentations actually tailored to what they can do. Let's say like if you're doing like applying for chief of a security officer position, etc. What, what, what makes you stand down that other people aren't doing, for example, that that could be, you know, that that could be the difference, or let's say a security analyst position, for example, or someone more junior, etc. It doesn't have to be that it's just showing the initiative, showing that you're passionate, showing that you you really want to be part of this team and environment and company and organization. So, you know, you're a junior security analyst, security engineer. Maybe one of the things that you can do is actually show some of the presentations that you've done in like a very high level as well. And remember, you can remove all of the, all of the company names that you work for before as well for privacy purposes, etc. But again, it shows the initiative as well. That's some additional things you can do. Of course, that confidence is just really as you do more of your homework, as you prepare for it. Again, what I like to say is that don't just wing it as well. Don't just wing it because that never happened that never works for anything right in terms of interviews, etc. But I'm going to say that by doing all of these different recommendations, you will have more confidence as well. And you can also look at additional things that you can make might have additional questions about because remember that your open ended questions are just going to be just some free can questions so that you remember that you asked the interviewers about maybe when you go to the interview, for example, you see something in the queue, right, because again, it's not just about, it's not just about, you know, pre canning and then doing your open ended questions. And you're also interviewing, you're going to see the physical location, etc. physical location, physical security as well. And you can also ask open end questions around that too. For example, what, what I'd be working in this area what floor, etc. Where does the it work, what are where do the other teams work at, etc. People will be working remotely and other things too. So the fifth one is about note taking. Again, I'm not going to stress that but just remembering what you talked about what you're going to say, you're open ended questions, anything else that you want to follow up on from the interviewers to the interviewing for yourself. And also it serves as like a great thank you sum up note taken based on it based on what you mentioned and talked to to the interviewers. And so I'm not asking back and I won't stress that but really just again give and take, not only answering questions but what you see during the interview what you see during the phone, what you see during talking to different people, you can ask those open ended questions. Obviously, with all these strategies and recommendations. Everyone won't be successful, or probably, you know, using these different strategies won't be successful. So keep trying. And again, I think the main thing here is just really trying again, and know that it's, it's, even if it didn't work out, there's always going to be a better or more challenging opportunity as well. And things happen for a reason as well. And things may not may not be meant may not be meant to be for example, things like that. And other than that, just wanted to specifically get any questions. I'm on Twitter, WR zero. If you have any questions specifically, you can also email me email me at website or at gmail.com. And also, all these presentations will also be shared on my GitHub account as well. So thank you very much for your time today. Thank you, Roy really great step by step, laying out what people need to do for, excuse me, to what people need to do preparing for their interviews it's really great, I think that everyone really needs to have that kind of checklist that you just laid out, because we get very nervous and get anxious about preparing for interviews or doing the interviews. So having a really great checklist like this is very helpful. I really liked your suggestion, you know, we tend to work a lot off of our, you know, electronic devices, but actually having the notepad. When you're in the interview to take down notes, I think that causes us to slow down a little bit, because many times when we're in an interview, we're nervous and having something that slows us down is really great. I also think it's really great one of the points you brought up about being sure that you bring into the interview, the resume that you submitted for the job so that you can talk from that resume. We've talked in other sessions about making sure you have resumes that are customized to those specific jobs that you're applying for, but it's also helpful to make sure that you brought the resume with you that you submitted to that job. So really great points I know we're going to have some questions in our discord channel. Thank you so much for being part of the career and having village. Take care Roy we'll see you around on Twitter. Yeah, thank you so much and I look forward to your presentation as well Kathleen. Thanks. Take care. Take care. Have a good one. Take care. Bye.
 Welcome back to the hacking career of Village. We're just so excited that we've had so many great presentations these two days.  I really want to thank all of our speakers for taking the time to pre-record these discussions and then being available in Discord to be able to answer your one-on-one questions.  Today we have a good friend from the Twitter sphere, Roy, who is going to talk a little bit about the key ingredients for job interviews, which are very important these days because once you get through all of the search and you finally get that interview, you want to make sure you're on top of your game for that.  So, Roy, take it away.  Thank you. Thank you very much, Kathleen, and actually the career hacking village. This is, I think, this is the first time this year. So first off, thanks to Kathleen and the entire team for having this opportunity as well.  And also just wanted to thank everyone for tuning in today. So yeah, first off, going to kind of talk about the key ingredients for job interviews, whether virtual or face-to-face.  The first thing that I always like to do in all of my presentations is that I don't accept responsibility for any of the liable for any of the actions or if I have any inaccurate information as well.  And of course, the presentation doesn't represent any of the organizations that I have worked for. And of course, this is not, this is absolutely not a one-size-fits-all at all.  And again, it depends. It is very contingent on the individual or individuals as well.  So first off, yeah, who am I? Healthcare, professional, et cetera.  Yeah, basically, I taught at Brandeis University of over 10 years, created the program there. And yeah, I really enjoy data forensics, instant response, healthcare security, application security, and IoT, Internet of Things.  Obviously, the picture that you see on the right bottom is actually not my picture. There is a great website based on machine learning and artificial intelligence that actually creates different images of people based on, you know, different things as well.  And it's not a real person at all. So you can actually go to that link to get more information.  So the agenda for today is actually I thought that these were the steps in regards to preparing for the job interview or being more successful at it.  Number one, we're going to talk about the preparation stage. Number two, about looking great because you always have to look good.  Doesn't matter if it's virtual or a face-to-face presentation, resume review, we'll talk about that too, and really exuding confidence. More confidence, the better as well.  And also talk about some note-taking strategies as well. And also asking back.  Not only do you keep answering questions, you should also ask a lot of questions too. We'll talk about that too. And I actually added one more thing too.  And the other one was trying again. We'll talk more about that and really address any specific questions as well.  So first off, during the preparation stage, you think about when you're on engagements or a project or actually, let's say you're doing some kind of lead team and red team and penetration test, etc.  You want to really do a reconnaissance on the opportunity or the job offer.  Remember that it's not a one-size-fits-all. Things that are advertised in the job description are sometimes not always the things that you are the candidates or the individual is going to do.  So you want to prepare as much as possible. So like what I like to say is kind of doing your reconnaissance on the opportunity, talking to people inside the company, or if you know anyone in your social networking profiles, etc.  or your conferences, talk to people that may know people in the company. Because chances are, you know, you'll get more, a much more in-depth overview of the company and the opportunity that you are applying for.  Also at the same time, for those of you who are virtual, just like as we are having physical face-to-face conversations during the interview, etc., for those of you that are virtual, especially during these times,  you want to ensure that you test all your equipment, lighting, etc., and do that ahead of time too.  And also at the same time, preparing yourself not only on the specific technical questions and non-technical requirements.  I like to call this like doing your homework. Think about, think outside the box and also try to look at the different non-technical skills like the communication skills, teams building skills,  additional leadership skills as well. If you don't have the experience, you can substitute it by relevant coursework.  For those of you in school, etc., or part-time, and some other opportunities like taking a class online, for example, etc.  Remember that presenting to different audiences is a very key ingredient, not only presenting to technical people, but also presenting to non-technical people as well.  And also, in addition to doing your reconnaissance on the opportunity or opportunities, performing your own risk assessments on the opportunity, job offer, etc., requirements, and giving it a grade.  Because just like as we're doing risk assessments on, because every security center is all about risk assessment, even though there's so many different areas in it.  Give it a grade. Maybe you have kind of like a spreadsheet that talks about the kind of the different things, location, culture, environments, interviewing with different people that are there.  External factors, for example. And other things, unknowns as well, things like that.  Next is always about looking great. I can't stress this enough, but always trying to look good. Present yourself in a way that even if the requirement says, just dress casually, you probably, you always probably want to show up in something that you're comfortable in, a business casual suit.  It all depends as well. Even if it's virtual or face-to-face, remember, especially during these times when there are a lot of these virtual interviews now, you also want to be prepared for that in terms of looking your best, looking at the lighting, looking at your camera, looking at your sound as well.  And practice makes perfect. So the more you do it, the more you get better at it as well.  Next is also talking about the kind of like the resume review. And I like to say that this, the resume review can be in different parts. It can be kind of the first step is really tailoring your resume, even before applying for the job application or the job,  for the job opportunity, for example, tailoring your resume so that it actually shows what you've accomplished. I always like to say that honesty is the best policy.  If you don't know something, you can always say that it's something that you want to learn and also that maybe there are some additional courses or open source projects and software that actually you can contribute to.  It shows a lot of passion. It also, at the same time, you know, I also like to say is that the resume gets you into the door, but the interview, interviews are where the interviewers and the organization gets to know you.  And it's a great thing too. And what I also like to say is, again, as an individual that also reviews a lot of resumes when building the team, etc.  You want to do something that people haven't done before. Obviously, you want to follow all of the resume guidelines. For example, the number of pages, etc. based on your experience as well.  But also at the same time, thinking outside the box trying to do something that's different. So for example, when let's say you apply for, give you example, let's say you apply for engineering job.  Obviously, there are going to be a lot of engineering requirements and technical skills and verbal and communication skills as well.  As someone that looks at resumes, I would say a lot too as well and looking to build a team. I would also stress that adding different things that can have you stand out from another individual because when you think about it,  the organizations are always looking at potential candidates. What are some things that can make you stand out? For example, on number one, maybe you may not have as much experience, but it's a great opportunity.  It looks like it's a great opportunity. The first thing that you can do is participate in either conferences or volunteering or other projects, especially specifically open source projects that you can contribute to.  It shows a lot of passion as well. And of course, motivation. Another thing that you can do is also including taking courses, especially, you know, I love the stress a lot of these edX courses.  So many opportunities now, especially now during the pandemic that are free, they can take as well something that you're learning to build your skill set basically.  And remember that as ID professionals or if basically you're professionals, and just like every other industry or profession, we're always developing our skills.  And one of the main ingredients that I look for, maybe in my opinion, is what stands out, thinking outside the box.  A lot of people are going to answer a question this way or have the resume this way. So take a look at the job description and try to do like your own assessment in terms of what you can do and what you cannot do.  And again, adding different things that where it shows more passionate and motivation as well to do the job, etc.  Next, I want to talk about really exuding covenants. Obviously, it really depends if you're introverts or extroverts, but with preparation comes making sure that you understand the roles and responsibilities of the job.  Not only the job, but the company. What's the, what's the business, what's the organization's business mission, for example, let's say for a healthcare company, and maybe it's all about patients.  So for example, when you're doing your job, you, or when you're part of the team doing your job.  Obviously, you don't, you don't want to be like a, a no team to everything. It also, it has to support the business. And so look at the business mission as well.  And educating yourself about not only the job details itself, but learning additional skillsets, etc. as well to apply on their job. And also preparing your questions to ask different people.  This comes with confidence and experience to, especially as you are doing more interviews, depending on the job opportunities. And now there are a lot of jobs opportunities.  So, prepare your questions, ask different questions of different people. Don't only answer those questions, but as you're doing your homework, getting more information about the company.  For example, in the first stage, reconnaissance stage, getting, getting to know people that are in the organization. Maybe you may, maybe there might not be like a direct link, but you can get some questions, etc.  And then talk about more of the questions that you should ask as well. And also really, when asking the questions, you want to ask open ended questions so that it makes just like the interviewer or interviewers.  Most of the time it's going to be interviewers. They're going to ask you open, open ended questions because it doesn't have it.  The interviewers don't want to have to see or don't want to hear like a yes or no answer. They want you to kind of like a scenario based questions chiming in how you think how you apply, how you fix this problem.  How do you negotiate when you have conflicts as well. So, as a job applicants or applicants, you also want to ask these open ended questions to, to have the organization open up and give you more information not a yes or no.  Because it will give you a lot of information in terms of, is this the right opportunity for, for, for you, or, or, or, or, or what you're trying to do or pursue, for example, because remember that just because the job description says something doesn't mean that it's going to be 100% what you will be  doing for example, and I'm not going to get into the specific job titles, etc. But there's been a lot of things where there's you know a lot of misrepresentation around job titles, etc.  But that's another, that's going to be another talk, but just, just really when, when you're building your confidence. And again it comes with preparation, etc. And thinking outside the box, you can have all your pre can open ended questions to ask the interviewers for example.  So one of the things that you know that I do, for example, when preparing for the interview, as you know I do my reconnaissance about the company. But usually what happens is that when the interviewer scheduled, for example, human resources or the, you know, the people culture team, etc.  They send a list of all the people that are going to be interviewing you. So one of the things that I like to do just like is actually go to do a reconnaissance and actually see what job this, the potential interviewers will do, because when HR human  resources sends you that list. It actually shows the individual and actually the person's title as well. You can kind of do your reconnaissance to see how long the individual or interviewers have been in the company, for example, if it's advertising there.  And also you can see kind of like some of the projects as well as your as your, kind of like creating these questions to. So again, it's all about when you do your homework, you have more confidence to ask these questions, but without doing your homework you won't be able to ask the questions.  So that's what my challenge to everyone is basically to ask those questions, do your homework so that you can ask those questions so that you can see if this, if this opportunity or requisition is the right one for you.  Next, we'll be talking about note taking. So, first off, I really like, I think now, based on the electronic era, era, etc.  I like to do your gadgets, etc. as well but make sure that you know again, maybe it's on vibrates so it doesn't impact your interviews, etc. I still like the traditional notebook or extra piece of paper, regarding the questions that you want to ask each individual.  So what I usually do during interviews is, of course, bring as the applicants, I bring empty sheet of paper in the front and also in the back. I actually have all of these open ended challenge questions, open ended questions for the interviewers as well.  And because I cover it up because number one, you know, it's really like a matter of choice as well. But that way, the interviewers don't see that as well. But then because your blank page will be about taking your notes, really following up for what  things you want to ask the interviewer or maybe it's a follow up in terms of what the interviewer said as well. The reason that I take notes is just so that we remember, remember what happened, but just as well.  And again, it's like a CYA cover your butt opportunity as well. It's not he said, she said, etc. So that it's all captured in your notes as well.  But I also like to say that, again, note taken is a great, great thing because sometimes during the actually many times during the interviews, etc.  There's going to be times where you interview with so many people, typically now for the, you know, depending on how big, or how big the companies are, or also how noble they are, typically for any information security position, and depending on what, what role you are going to be taking in the organization.  Typically, you're going to be interviewed by at least one or three people, or the more senior the position, seniority, the position, the more people as well.  For example, some of these I've actually, I remember this many years ago, but don't quote me on this, but many years ago, probably when I was actually interviewing for like a security analyst, security engineer position.  I interviewed for healthcare hospital position. I interviewed for at least at least about five people, and it took most of the whole day, for example.  So just prepare for that. And again, you're not taking what will come in really handy because this will also not only help you in determining if this is the right fit or the right role and to follow up with any questions that you have or any questions that the interviewers have for you, where you might not know the answer,  but for example, it also helps in into generating after every job interview, for example, usually it depends. So there's no specific guidance on it but send like a thank you email, for example, and the note taking will really help because then you know what you talk to each interviewer or interviewers  and you can actually put some of this information in terms of your thank you notes, you know, blah, blah, blah, give you example.  Thank you very much, Aaron, Rob, Chris, Mike, Leanne for the interview today. I really appreciated the time that you took and then you can kind of can say, you know, Leanne talked about this blah, blah, blah.  And it shows you also as like a summary as well to kind of help you close the deal on the interview.  Now, I also wanted to add, I added this because, well, actually, I, the next one is that it was the one I added but asking back, don't just have, don't just basically answer questions as well.  It's kind of like a give and take. So because remember that the interviewers or the interview were is trying to ascertain if you're the right individual or the right fit for the team.  So don't just ask the questions you want to kind of give and take in terms of having the interviewers ask you questions.  And remember in the preparation stage, as you're creating already created these questions based on who you're going to be interviewing with, you want to ask them questions too because this is your best time to make sure that this is the right opportunity for you.  Is it really true is the job description really, really, really match what what they're what is in the job description, for example, is it the right culture, is it the right environment, is it the right team, is it the right people, is it the right mission, is this something that you really believe in,  for example, and like I'm not going to read it but at the end like getting the getting to really know the real company.  Obviously, I'm going to say, again, this is just my opinion but the job description sometimes is probably most sometimes just a copy from from from somewhere else as well.  And sometimes the job description is not what you actually sign up for. And again, this is not a one size fits all but it depends on the company as well.  So some of these example questions we're going to talk about that I don't have everything here but remember where I mentioned about asking open any questions.  So the one thing is that some of these questions can be you want to you want to find out is this too good to be true.  Some of these open questions could be, how long was the security team, been in place for example, was there information security manager.  Why he he or she, what was at the company that they leave was the reason, etc. These some additional questions that you can ask.  And again, you can tell your questions on how much information you want as well.  So for example, why did some of these questions might be, why did the entire security team all these is this a new security team is is the security manager, who you will be reporting to for example, or it manager.  Why did he or she leave, for example, other questions might be, again, remember it's all open ended.  How long has the has people specifically been there it doesn't only have to be about your specific team as well.  Especially think about remember that you're doing your, your reconnaissance doing your homework during your preparation, looking great as well.  But, you know, making sure, like, one of the things you can do is, you know, especially your open and the questions is asking, not only who do you report to, but also asked about like your manager, or your security leadership team, who they report to as well.  So you can ask like let's say, sometimes just to give you example, the security manager probably reports to let's say a CISO, or let's say the CISO or every security manager reports to CISO.  You probably want to find out who the CISO reports to is it the CIO, is it privacy officer is the CEO, etc. It really depends.  It's not a one size fits all that way you can actually tell your question and say, hey, you are you won't ask it like that but hey, how come the CIO was only here for this amount of time has there been some transition has there been some kind of reorganization as well.  So, remember that it's asking back it's not only asking questions, but you also want to find this is your best opportunity to to to find if this is the right opportunity for you.  And it is something that that resonates with you as well.  Next is really this is something that I added as well because I was just thinking of things that, okay, what what happens if you do all this, and you still don't succeed.  And don't worry because this is always.  It's kind of like a think of it as like a date, I guess, if the date doesn't go, it all depends. So, when you're doing this, even if you do all the.  These are again these are not a one size fits all.  But as you're doing this, obviously, these different strategies and tactics will help you, you as the individual job applicants become more successful, but remember that it doesn't always work.  And again, especially these different companies.  Please don't despair. Try again, even things that let's say it's a company that you're really interested in or organization or etc.  Or it's a great opportunity to the best. Don't worry. And again, I think I won't quote it but there's been many security professionals and engineers where their first choice isn't always the choice that it was set out to be as well.  So, take this as like a grain of salt. But again, learn from what you've done lessons learned, etc.  You know, more interviews also gives more experience and confidence, and also remember and again, it also depends on the organization as well.  Some organizations, based on how you interview, you will get kind of like a very, you know, could be like a big summary sometime.  But some of the organizations if you ask nicely as well, especially with your thank you notice as well, you can also get some feedback on on what were some of the feedback things that were a pro, a pro that work really well, and things that did not work very well as well based on the  different interviewers as well. And again, at first you don't just like that other song right I think it was from a Leah I believe at first you don't succeed, try again as well.  But take this as a, you know, take this as a learning experience and know that you won't always be successful. I've known people at when they actually applied to Google. Some of these really, you know, really great organizations as well, or brand name recognition.  And they didn't get in. And of course, they didn't, they tried three times, you didn't get in, but you know, after either to a merger position, for example, they actually ended up being at the same company, etc.  I also want to say here is that don't burn your bridges as well. Again, obviously treat people as you would like to be treated as well. And again, companies may not give you all the feedback that you that you may want to hear as well.  But again, remember from those open ended questions, etc. to, and usually remember what I mentioned about like making a risk assessment on the, the interview or the company before you actually interview with the company, you can also have like make a grade and a risk assessment in terms of the  grade around how your into how your interview went with this interviewer, for example, would you work well with him or her or the team, for example, would you not work well as well.  So you can kind of get good and get a good example. You know, again, it is probably only just from your own perspective, you probably want their own, their perspective as well.  But it gives you a good overview and a good remembering, remembrance of what happens during the interview as well.  Now, just kind of like putting it all together. Remember that. And again, this is not a one size fits all at all.  Really. And again, these probably can be done in different different steps as well. It's not like step one, two or three. But I really believe that, you know, preparing having the preparation, having the preparation is key.  And that kind of like doing your homework, doing your homework, right, just like, just like the Patriot says do your job, do your job, your job preparation comes with preparation comes all the additional confidence that you have, asking the different questions that you have for them as well, and also kind of reciprocating to see if it's the right fit for you as well.  Number two really talks about looking great. And just looking your best as well, wearing some kind of business casual even though there's some other minimum requirement just looking your best doesn't matter of its virtual or face to face as well.  And the three talking about the resume review process, this is probably beforehand and then of course, after hand as well, because one of the things that I actually didn't mention and, and so I have the paper with your note taking.  You have you have the blank paper. You also have the open ended questions that you have for the interviewers, but also under that, you also have your resume as well. Maybe you can have additional.  Most of the time, the organization will always have the resume, but this is something that you can pull out so that you can reference as well. I've also known some other candidates where, especially when they're going for like different positions or like a higher opposition, etc, or a position that's just out of their league,  for example, again, remember it's about thinking, thinking outside the box doing something different. Most people are going to bring the resume, etc. What can you do to bring, what can you do to do something different.  A lot of people now they actually bring in like different presentations actually tailored to what they can do. Let's say like if you're doing like applying for chief of a security officer position, etc.  What, what, what makes you stand down that other people aren't doing, for example, that that could be, you know, that that could be the difference, or let's say a security analyst position, for example, or someone more junior, etc.  It doesn't have to be that it's just showing the initiative, showing that you're passionate, showing that you you really want to be part of this team and environment and company and organization.  So, you know, you're a junior security analyst, security engineer. Maybe one of the things that you can do is actually show some of the presentations that you've done in like a very high level as well.  And remember, you can remove all of the, all of the company names that you work for before as well for privacy purposes, etc.  But again, it shows the initiative as well. That's some additional things you can do.  Of course, that confidence is just really as you do more of your homework, as you prepare for it. Again, what I like to say is that don't just wing it as well. Don't just wing it because that never happened that never works for anything right in terms of interviews, etc.  But I'm going to say that by doing all of these different recommendations, you will have more confidence as well. And you can also look at additional things that you can make might have additional questions about because remember that your open ended questions are just going to be just some free can questions so that you remember that you asked the interviewers about  maybe when you go to the interview, for example, you see something in the queue, right, because again, it's not just about, it's not just about, you know, pre canning and then doing your open ended questions.  And you're also interviewing, you're going to see the physical location, etc. physical location, physical security as well. And you can also ask open end questions around that too. For example, what, what I'd be working in this area what floor, etc. Where does the it work, what are where do the other teams work at, etc.  People will be working remotely and other things too.  So the fifth one is about note taking. Again, I'm not going to stress that but just remembering what you talked about what you're going to say, you're open ended questions, anything else that you want to follow up on from the interviewers to the interviewing for yourself.  And also it serves as like a great thank you sum up note taken based on it based on what you mentioned and talked to to the interviewers.  And so I'm not asking back and I won't stress that but really just again give and take, not only answering questions but what you see during the interview what you see during the phone, what you see during talking to different people, you can ask those open ended questions.  Obviously, with all these strategies and recommendations. Everyone won't be successful, or probably, you know, using these different strategies won't be successful. So keep trying.  And again, I think the main thing here is just really trying again, and know that it's, it's, even if it didn't work out, there's always going to be a better or more challenging opportunity as well.  And things happen for a reason as well. And things may not may not be meant may not be meant to be for example, things like that.  And other than that, just wanted to specifically get any questions. I'm on Twitter, WR zero.  If you have any questions specifically, you can also email me email me at website or at gmail.com. And also, all these presentations will also be shared on my GitHub account as well.  So thank you very much for your time today.  Thank you, Roy really great step by step, laying out what people need to do for, excuse me, to what people need to do preparing for their interviews it's really great, I think that everyone really needs to have that kind of checklist that you just laid out,  because we get very nervous and get anxious about preparing for interviews or doing the interviews. So having a really great checklist like this is very helpful.  I really liked your suggestion, you know, we tend to work a lot off of our, you know, electronic devices, but actually having the notepad.  When you're in the interview to take down notes, I think that causes us to slow down a little bit, because many times when we're in an interview, we're nervous and having something that slows us down is really great.  I also think it's really great one of the points you brought up about being sure that you bring into the interview, the resume that you submitted for the job so that you can talk from that resume.  We've talked in other sessions about making sure you have resumes that are customized to those specific jobs that you're applying for, but it's also helpful to make sure that you brought the resume with you that you submitted to that job.  So really great points I know we're going to have some questions in our discord channel. Thank you so much for being part of the career and having village.  Take care Roy we'll see you around on Twitter.  Yeah, thank you so much and I look forward to your presentation as well Kathleen.  Thanks. Take care. Take care. Have a good one. Take care. Bye.
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