Economics of Password Cracking in the GPU Era
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Imhoff - Dousharm, Robert (Hackajar)
As this shift to "General Computing" and working in the cloud has accelerated in the last 4 years, so has the ability to take advantage of these technologies from an Information Security vantage point. This could not be more apparent than with the sudden uptick in GPU based password cracking technologies. In this presentation we will explore where the current GPU cracking technologies are, what their cost are to implement, and how to deploy and execute them (with demo). Most importantly, we will demonstrate the "brute force calculator" which can assist with getting your monies worth. Finally, we will explore where the future lays for this medium and what that means for safe passwords moving into the next decade. Robert has been working in Information Security for over 12 years. In his travels he was one of the first to publicly demonstrate the downfalls of credit card security in merchant environments. Next, after 2 ? years of research, he demonstrated "whitelist" based IDPS technology embedded in within web based code to protect against and detect XSS and Injection Attacks in real-time. Later, he developed and implemented highly customized DNS logging integrated with real-time IDPS technology for protection against 0-day malware threats. He currently is working on a SV Hacker Space and various WiFi security shenanigans.
 Hello, welcome to economics of password cracking in the GPU era. This actually sounds more corporate than DEF CON normally allows for, but we'll get through this. Obviously, I work at Sandisk, so I use their slide deck things. So, what we're going to cover today, so we're just going to do a quick introduction of who I am and why we're here and why you should stay in the talk for the entire duration. We're going to cover GPU cracking, like some fundamentals one-on-one stuff. Then we're going to get into the meat of it, all the economics of it. We're going to explain how fast and quick it is to deploy. We're going to do like a little lessons learned. If you haven't noticed, I'm pretty corporate. And then we'll do a conclusion that's going to have some Q&A and some afterthoughts. Oh, that. There it is. Q&A. Shameless plugs. I love these. These are all my sponsors. So, I used to work for Atheros Communications. The CFO came to me one day and said, here's a $3,000 budget and an Excel spreadsheet that's password protected. Break into it and let me know. Get back to me when you break into it. So, it cost me about $300 to break into his Excel spreadsheet, but I still had a bunch of budget, so I kept going forward. So, this talk is mostly because of them. So, thank you Atheros for giving me time, even though they don't exist anymore. It's Qualcomm now, which brings me to my other one. So, Atheros got bought out and I just cashed in all my stock options. Apparently, Qualcomm already has a CSO, so I didn't have any purpose over at Atheros. SanDisk needed one, so now I'm the CSO over there. So, I'm a technical CSO, so you shouldn't get up and run away once you hear the word CSO. If you guys don't know what that means, it's a Chief Information Security Officer. So, I actually do soup to nuts. I actually do all the architectural reviews, the deployments, all that other kind of stuff, and all the boring stuff like policies and procedures and talking to C-level staff. But they continued the funds on this and we're going to show you in a much bigger way than $3,000 later on. People of Earth, I definitely appreciate you guys. I couldn't have done this talk if you didn't screw up on a consistent basis, so I appreciate that. Thank you. And electricity. So, like, if we look at the laws of electricity, there's the path of least resistance and that kind of ties in with the people of Earth. So, thank you. Anywho. Oh, yeah, I got to give mad greets to my crews. Vegas 2.0, that's the people that I associate with. I don't have my lab code on today because UPS really sucks. Don't believe the commercials. They do not love logistics. DC949. You guys know all those crazy guys. The party was pretty good last night until it got shut down in concert with all the other parties in the towers. And the Cuckoo's Nest. This is the private hacker space up in the Redwood Hills. It features 50 meg internet, dual 50 meg internet, and septic tanks. So, it's kind of like a CougenCon for those of you that know what that's all about. So, thank you, everybody, for all your efforts in there, making this happen. Oh, another shameless plug. A word about RSA tokens. So, one of my lessons learned is you need two-factor authentication. And I was all geared up for that. And then some assholes decided to, like, totally let their systems get pwned. So, I'm like, well, don't, if you're going to do two-factor, don't do RSA, obviously, because that didn't work out. So what I have here is these special keychains. So, I don't know if you can see very well, but it would help if it's right side up. So, since I am the CSO and I had to redistribute 3,000 RSA tokens to all my users, and that was a pain in the ass, I collected all the original tokens from my users. So, they still generate numbers. And I was like, what the hell am I going to do with 3,000 RSA tokens that have no purpose because the Chinese have all of their seeds? And then I saw on the internet on a Tricia and somebody superimposed a bottle opener to the side of one of these as a joke. And I was like, well, screw photoshopping. I'm just going to like actually attach bottle openers to all my dead RSA tokens. So, and normally I buy American and everything, keep our economy going and all that, but I figured since this was special, I got all my bottle openers from China. So, every single bottle opener actually says men and China on it. So, what you have here is an RSA bottle opener from China. So, I figured I'd throw some of these out to the audience. I did have 180 of them and apparently I'm down to eight leading up to the talk. So, I'll chuck these out. They actually have some significance around 2 a.m. tonight, so I won't tell you more than that. That's I guess a big enough clue. So, if you have one of these and you're in the right place at 2 a.m., it'll be of use. Otherwise, just enjoy opening bottles of beer with your pointless RSA token. Some of these I think actually will go for the next five years. So, it'll still generate numbers for five years to nothing. So, unless you're Chinese and you actually have a use for it still. So, I'll go ahead and chuck these out and then get started. Where are you Matt? I don't want to hit you again. Oh, I almost got her. I mean. I'm going to try to get in the back here. There you go. You look like a girl. One more. Any of you guys make it to the summit on Thursday night? Oh, what a bunch of jerks. So, the summit was an EFF fundraiser. We gave out about 50 of these at the fundraiser as well. So, if you're there, you got one already. All right. About me. So, why should you listen to what I'm saying and all this other crap? So, I got four years of credit card security. You may remember me from DEF CON 11 through 13. I did some talks on how to steal credit cards from merchants directly. I felt that everybody was talking about the consumers and all the carters in the world and nobody was talking about the businesses getting rape blind. So, I talked about that for about three years. I developed IDPS technology into code so for websites. So, websites that are self-healing and they detect when people are doing evil stuff and go into offensive mode for the Department of Energy, which they loved it and let me research that for three years and then scrapped it. So, if you want to foyer that, it's actually some interesting stuff. And for the last two years, I've been doing a lot of GP, GPU, password cracking stuff. All the suit and tie crap, I've been doing IT security for 12 years. I've been in development roles, research roles, SOC analyst roles, incident response roles, tactical red team, tiger team, red versus blue fill in the blank. And a bunch of holistic crap like policies and procedures and training and yearly refreshers and all that other stupid junk that you don't care about here. And the private hack space. So, we have trees and servers to muse over. So, it's in the middle of the redwood forest. There's about 15 trees and about, I think we're up to 48 terabytes of storage out there. Just doing cool stuff. So, if you're in the Bay Area and you want to go to this crazy forest resort hack space, just give me a ring. Okay. Now, what you actually came here for. So, sorry about all the sand disk slide things. So, what is general computing? So, there's a thing that people say they get confused with GPUs and general computing. So, general computing just means that you have a whole bunch of tools in your arsenal. So, that's where OpenCL comes in. So, OpenCL is supposed to say you can program for the platform. So, if you say, okay, do you have a GPU? If yes, I'm going to do stuff using your GPU. If no, do you have SSE2 instructions? If yes, I'll use that. And it'll just kind of keep going down and down. But it looks for preferential devices. So, that way you don't have to sit there and like CUDA really sucks because you can only do map, mapping routines with CUDA and nothing else. You can't say try and do SSE3, which is not as fast, but it's still useful. And that's why a lot of people are migrating from NVIDIA to ATI cards. And there's some other things involved with that. We'll get into that. What is the current state of general computing and high performance computing? So the top 500, it turns out that of the 100 of the top 500 that topped the list, about 80 of those now topped the list because they have graphics processing units or general purpose graphics processing units, which are mostly the Tesla 2050s. So we're actually seeing that like every time that that list gets republished, it just gets decimated with more GPUs. So if anybody's wondering if GPUs are going to really stay or if they're just like a pass a thing or invoke right now, it'll be pass a later. I don't think so. I think everything's going to move over to GPUs. Another thing about GPUs that people don't understand and I always use every microphone I can to promote this, if you know what a DSP is, a digital signal processor, that's all a GPU really is. It's just sample rates, right? Something comes in and it just keeps on checking, checking, checking, checking over and over and over again. Like a really fast clock. That's the core. Yeah, somebody at NVIDIA will say it's a lot more than that. But when you really think about it from a EE perspective or a S perspective, it's just like a really super crazy FPGA or DSP processor. Cloud computing. So everybody's like, hey, you know, everybody loves GPUs, so let's get into it. So Amazon web clusters and EC2 elastic cloud computing, they were the first to come out with it with the actual GPUs. The rest of these guys also have stuff. So if you want to do this stuff on your own and if you look in the CD, I have all the kit and everything you need to get started, you can be cracking passwords on other people's hardware in no time or if you want to do bitcoins if that's still popular, you can do it as well. I think at one point before the bubble burst with bitcoins, it was actually cheaper just to use an Amazon EC2 to mine bitcoins. And even though you're paying per hour, you're still getting more back once your 50 coins came up. But I think the bubble burst and now it's just stupid to do that. You might come back if it is really a serious thing that people care about. Do I sound like I'm droning on? Yeah, oh, sorry. I'll try not to. Yeah. Thank you. That was dumb. Okay. So you got distributed not in that folding at home, set at home and bitcoins. And according to the crack me if you can guys, there actually will be a distributed password cracking pretty soon. I don't know if I was supposed to say it to this many people. Oops, you'll get over it. Although get over it. But that's coming soon. I think that's the crux. Like if we look at what we're doing with password cracking, that to me is like the holy grail. Like once that happens, like if you don't have toe factor, you're dead. It's just not happening anymore. Let's get into actual GPU cracking. So the hardware, like I had to catch myself up on all this once he gave me $3,000. So this is the main ones out there. If you want to buy the top of the line thing for your bitcoins or GPU password cracking on the Nvidia side, you want to use the GTX 590. All they really said was it's the same thing as the two GTX 250 series. They said, well, we couldn't figure out 260. Thank you, sir. No, no, no, you don't even know what I'm talking about. Shut up. So the 260s, what they did was said, we have a processor and we don't know quite yet how to make it faster. So let's just put two GPUs on one card and just say it's double the speed. That's all the 590 is. It's just two 580s crammed onto one card. So when they say 1024 cores, it's really 512 cores per GPU. So when you're doing cracking, it actually breaks it out. You actually see two GPUs actually crunching your numbers, not one. So that's a little bit of an issue. And so we have here, it says times eight cells. So it's just like the PS3, right? They say that they have the cell processing. So each core has eight cells. It's the same technology because Nvidia is the one that uses that for the PS3. So there's a real problem with this. We'll get into that later. So even though you have 8192 streams, we'll quote that, it still doesn't compete with Radeon's HD 5870, which is 1600 cores. And there's a 5970, which they did the same thing as the 590 did, it said 1600 plus 1600. So you just have to have a really big ass power supply to handle one card. Just checking my notes to see if I missed something. Oh, I guess I am supposed to talk about it here. So why does everybody switch over? When you think of bitcoins, I'm just going to keep referring to that because everybody knows that they like money and they like to switch to stuff that works. So Nvidia won out of the gate as far as cracking passwords and bitcoins and all these other things because they had the CUDA. And CUDA is just this development environment. They had a lot of examples, a lot of free tech nets, a lot of webcasts, all this stuff. So I was able to hit the ground running and Radeon, or Radeon, ATI had this thing called Streamkit. And Streamkit was just this gaudy, klugey piece of crap with not really good documentation. So all the developers said, well, Nvidia is pretty solid company and stable and CUDA is pretty well documented. We're going to start doing that. But what people found out later on, especially when ATI started promoting OpenCL, is that you actually get a lot more performance out of the Radeons. And the reason why is it's the Sysk versus risk argument, right? So Sysk has all these pre-determined processes. You just send it in like SSE2 and all this other stuff in MMX. So you just tell it to do one thing, one instruction, and that instruction knows to do 15 others that are pre-programmed. Radeon is just like what, why I really loved the 68K processor on the PowerPC side for the longest time. It was, well, as long as you're willing to code it, it's going to be more efficient and faster and actually get better performance. So when you look and you actually do a map function on a CUDA, it's going to look at 512 cores and it's going to do a map across 512 cores as if there were no cores. So you're not, you're only using one cell per core instead of all eight cells. Now, just because you're not a good programmer or you just don't really don't understand CUDA. Now OpenCL said, we don't care. As long as it's a stream, you can address it. So now you're writing the same exact code in OpenCL and you're saying, go across 1600 cores and do 1600 process map functions simultaneously. So that's a lot faster than 512 map functions. So that's why it's important to kind of point that out of why ATI, and this is getting to like a really bits and bytes level, why ATI is better than NVIDIA, not because their logo is red and the other one is green, but that's why everybody's moving over. And if NVIDIA doesn't change their processes, if they don't change their architecture, they're going to lose this war and it's going to be ATI that's going to be the market leader and save AMD for a little while. So what else? Oh, we just went over all that crap. Okay. I should probably pay attention to my next slide thing here. Okay. Cracking software. What's out there? So OCL Hashcat, I put it on the top because right now it's a top contender. IG Hashcat, which is Igor from Russia. He's got one. And then the CUDA multi-forcer, which is missing in action as of today. Are you Bitweasel? Well, your website's been down forever, dude. Well, you know, you would have been number one. I saw a little background real quick. This is the first time I'm meeting this guy. So I actually partnered up with, can you stand up for a second, Bitweasel? So this is a funny story. While I'm at Ethereum, I am not a CUDA programmer. And I need to find a CUDA programmer and I had the $3,000 budget. So I call up Bitweasel and I say, if I just buy you a bunch of brand new cards, can you do some exclusive programming or at least stave off the code to other people and just give it to me early? And he said, sure, no problem. Next, you know, I dropped shipped a couple of video cards so that you can get the multi-card thing going. And everything's happy, go lucky. And then all of a sudden the website was missing for two months when I was making these slides. And I'm like, what happened to Bitweasel? And apparently, I don't know, you were on a drunken stupor or something? So a server failure. So you can write CUDA programming, but you can't keep a server up. All right. So as of right now, you're in third place behind these guys as far as your efficiency in your algorithm. So, and I'm kind of an asshole that way. I don't mind saying that right directly to you. So, and actually my slides actually show you still ahead, but I didn't revise them yet. But, well, good. Maybe later on this weekend I can do some joint stuff with him and show you guys the most efficient code. So CUDA multi-forcer Kim's prepackaged on backtrack four. Is it also on five? Is pure hate in the room? Are you auditing mine and seeing if I'm full of shit or not? No, I guess not. Oh, speaking of which, is F5 here? Or F9? Please step to the front please. That was redundant. So she's part of the scavenger hunt and I'm supposed to give her a lot of shit, otherwise Civiac will bust my balls. So if you can just sit up here with me, don't worry, I put on deodorant this morning. Thank you. Anyways, so CUDA multi-forcer, this is the one I started off with and this is the one I was able to actually crack a shit ton of passwords with. So thank you for that bit, Weasel. But right now OCL hashcat, which is run by Adam, something or other, he's in the current lead because his ATI card with the OCL, which is the OpenGL framework. So this is my buddy for the duration of the talk. And her mic's not on, but she says hi. Current benchmarks, so we're going to go over benchmarks. They're all going to be based on NTLM, Windows Active Directory, MD5 for the websites and small, salt-based passwords and this one's for you. Smart. Where'd you go? Where's Jackie? Anybody watch Epic Mealtime? Salt-based passwords, smart. Okay, you guys in the audience get it, that, no, that stuff. So what's in a mask? So, okay, let's talk about this. This is what I really love about password cracking is how stupid humans are and the path of least resistance. So, now that you guys know earlier in the year, and I'm going to start picking this up faster because I think I'm way behind on my time. And we have a special thing. We don't have a live demo, but we have a consolation prize for you guys, so don't get up and run away because the live demo's not here if you're a dude or a lesbian. It's really worth it to you to stick around. Intent nudge, nudge. So at my company, Sandisk, or any other company, and now apparently a docker because they got smart, was, hey, you need an uppercase, lowercase, a number, a special character, it has to be minimum of eight characters, right? Well, this sounds all hunky-dory and dandy and even pure hate. I'm kind of biting on his style a little bit because he got into this and BitWheels came up with a custom cracking tool to help out with this, where you said, okay, uppercase, lowercase, numbers. What do humans do? Oh, I got to do an uppercase. You know what? I'm going to make that my first character. It's going to be uppercase just because I got to remember that the first one's uppercase because they're making me do an uppercase. Well, if 99% of my organization, and I don't work at Ethereals now, I can tell you this, 99% of Ethereals started off with uppercase before I came in. And I was like, guys, I just cracked all your passwords in like two hours because your eight character password now went to a seven character because I only checked uppercase in the front. And so we actually put in the GPO policy there. You no longer can use an uppercase character that is required at the beginning of your password. So doing something simple like that actually saves you a lot of grief. It pisses off users because they're like, Christ, now I have to start putting my password under my keyboard again. So because they just can't think. And we'll talk about what really means about that. So that's what we say is what's in a mask. So when you actually say, okay, I have a ten character password, it's really strong. Well, yeah, if it starts with an uppercase and ends with a number, and then every 90 days when I make you change it, your last character went from one to two to three. Or even the special characters on the keyboard, you went from a pound to an at, or bang to an at, to a pound to a dollar sign. It's like, okay, I'm pretty sure the Chinese could figure that out, you idiot. So we actually had to put all these really specially crafted GPO rules in to kind of combat this kind of natural path of least resistance of users. So that mask, so you can say, okay, we're cracking passwords, we're doing brute force, yada, yada, yada. It's taking forever, eight characters takes 23 hours, that's a long time. You know, you can start using masks and now seven characters takes an hour and 15 minutes. Especially, and with the mask, your mileage varies, it may be about eight hours to get every masked seven character password. But that'll get 75% of your passwords. So if any of you are in the crack me if you can contest, that's what we call in the business a clue, okay? So, and they're probably like reeling over to like, what an ass, so he just told like 200 people how to break into our whole contest. But they'll get over it. So that gets into the passphrase concept. So interestingly enough, I was in India for two weeks trying to convince them to use better passwords and they were scared that I was making them use 10 characters. And I said, well, you know what? Think of a passphrase, right? I only eat tandoori chicken on Saturdays, even when the wife complains. Yeah. Now use the first letter of all those things and you permute eight eyes for bang signs and A's for at signs and that sort of thing. And remember to put a capital letter in there somewhere. And suddenly you're just saying in your head, I only eat tandoori chicken on Saturdays, even when the wife complains. And you have a really, really complex password that you can just say in your head and just use the first letter and make sure you have pre-mutations on some of those letters. And all of a sudden that's a really freaking good idea, you know? So I think that's like the crux of everything. You can probably leave right now if you want to miss out on the lesbian action. That's really like the whole point of me being up on stage today. Two factor in you. So you guys all got your cool passes to that thing at 2 a.m. If you didn't, sorry. Oh, yeah, there's a giggle there. We already talked about that. So I'm mad props to Google. I mean you can love them or hate them and maybe they're not doing evil and maybe they are doing evil. Who knows? But they're the first email client that's public that gave away a free two factor authentication option and I use it. So even when I'm on my computers I use every day, I still use it just as a matter of course. It's just a really freaking good idea, you know, especially if they're giving it to you for free. So even in our organization we're prepping everybody to do two factor. And if you work at Qualcomm, any Qualcomm employees here that want to admit you work for Qualcomm, you guys all know that your VPN requires two factor and all your other shit in house requires two factor, right? Nod your heads. Yeah, they're nodding their heads because Josh like just absolutely requires that over there and he's like hardcore about the two factor and it's just a good idea, you know, and there's, we'll talk about why that matters right now actually. God, I've been drinking too much. Secure off, this is actually, or semantic VIP, so I don't talk about RSA anymore as a good two factor option just because like the Chinese just cut through them like butter and they're probably doing it again as we speak. So semantic VIP, that's the old verisign two factor authentication. That saying, you know, it's on your phone, so on your smartphones you can have a two factor here. And the thing I always tell people is, oh, you don't like two factor authentication, think about your smartphone, right? How often do you lose this versus your car keys? So go ahead, just keep this around, lose your car keys and you have your second factor. So stop bitching about me making you carry around your phone that you're already carrying. So you can do that with semantic VIP. You can do it with RSA as well, but it's RSA, so my rep's going to get so mad at me if she's listening to this right now. Secure off, anybody have Chase banking online? You can omit it, only one will omit that they use Chase. Come on, who had Washington Mutual? You're all poor bastards in here. I got Washington Mutual accounts, they're Chase now. So when you try and log into your account, it says, well, you have your number on file, can I text message you a four digit code just to make sure it's you? And that's what Secure Off does. They're the ones that are behind that, not some bolts on the chase and you're going to start seeing it in a lot of other places. USAA does it today. So for all you former military and jerks that just used your parents' military experience to get your USAA accounts, they have to, yeah, that guy, they have two factor authentication as well because they get it. You know, our military might not get other things, but they get two factor authentication for their retired employees or their active employees for USAA. Everybody knows that USAA is right? Okay, so for your foreigners, that's the credit union that's exclusively given out to all of our military forces and their families. And if you don't know what a credit union is, that's a place that's not an evil bank. They're all non-profits. They're not allowed to churn a profit for personal gain, so which they happen to be the largest non-profit. They're a Fortune 10 company, so, but non-profit Fortune 10 company. So they have two factor authentication. That's just a really good idea. And all these apps are free in the app store, in the Blackberry store, in the market, the Android market. You can just download these apps and you can just demand of your employees or of your companies and of your vendors that you use. I need two factor. PayPal has two factor for free. E-Trade has two factor for free. USAA has two factor for free. Start pushing everybody else. At Sandisk, what we do is say, we have two factor and you're partnered with all your banks, guess what? The same token you're using to authenticate with us, you can recycle that for your bank. And I'm not carrying around like this freaking janitor's key of RSA tokens for all of your different things. This is for my Wells Fargo. This is for my porn site. This is for my work. You know, you can do it all in one token. All right, I'm done pitching it to you. Let's get into the economics. How cheap is it to break passwords? Pretty cheap. So a locally hosted box is my recommendation. As long as you don't mind a slightly higher power bill and it ends up being about $15 more a month for a typical resident here in the United States. Private clouds are also a really good idea. We'll talk about that as well. And local distribution. And that's getting into the whole SETI at home thing where you can have all the computers in your environment, especially if you're a development house like Sandisk. We have a lot of GPUs just laying around in all of our development boxes. Like we want the top of the line thing and we're not going to use that GPU ever. I'm like, well, okay, I'll use your spare cycles while you're having that box doing nothing, okay, and crack your own passwords. Congratulations, you lose. And so that's it. Yeah, the custom screensabers and everything you know and love. Public cloud. Amazon. I was going to have a demo for you, but I don't have it ready. Oh, here's my live demo. I didn't have a live demo, so I gave you guys girls pillow fighting. I think that's DJ Jackalope there. And that's beer Betty there. Oh, you missed out on the lesbian part. Smart. Okay. And there's your live demo of a girls pillow fighting. If you have those RSA tokens, you'll see the encore production at 2am somewhere. Hint, tint, nudge, nudge. Oh, a word about last bit and lcomsoft. It's definitely pound equals. So last bit is the exact same thing as lcomsoft. Have you guys heard of these guys? Like on wired and Arc soft and all that, or Arc site and all them. They did these expos days on them about 18 months ago and they said, hey, now you can pay somebody to do your password cracking with GPUs. Yeah. Hopefully they don't take me out back and shoot me because they are Russians. But these are both the same exact company and it's the same guy and he like will just take your money and run. I had to do charge backs. I used an American Express which has really good charge back coverage. So I was able to recover the money that I lost for my $3,000 budget because I was just trying anything I could. I was like, I just want to show this guy I can crack his password. So I tried buying the lcomsoft software. Didn't work. You know, I had a brand new GPU in there and it says I don't see your GPU. So if you're thinking about using these services, I'm just going to go ahead and say that it's crap. It's rubbish. So if you're thinking about it or you already purchased it, get your money back. And if you're in the room, guys, sorry, your stuff sucks. So the best thing I suggest is like a local box. You can do the Amazon web cluster and this is how this works in my mind. If you got 10 days on your hand to crack a password and $3,000, just buy a local box. If you don't have 10 days you needed to have it done today, you do that vertical versus horizontal thing. You know, vertically it takes 10 days to crack a password or you can just spend the same $3,000 and go horizontal and just get a crap ton of GPUs at Amazon and have them all cracking simultaneously and you can have it done in about 23 hours. It can be the same $23,000 or $3,000. The only difference is on a single box you did that once and you can keep doing it again and again and again. It just takes 11 days for eight passwords. As opposed to like I just have a project and I just need to crack something and move on with my life and I'll never crack a password again, then I would say just use Amazon. But if you're going to do it for, you know, checking the strength of your employees' passwords like I have to, you get a single box. And we'll show you what my box looks like in just a minute. And we said distributed non-existent. Well, according to crack me if you can, it will be existing pretty soon. And I want to work with them to do a Chrome slash Firefox extension so you can also do like distributed storage of cracked passwords. Who? I don't know about that. There's a GPU CPU distributed password conqueror called DERDA. I don't know. D-U-R-D-A-N-E-O. Okay. Bitweasel is questioning your authority on this subject. I'm not aware of this. Is it actually still developed? We'll talk about that offline. Don't forget there's a track 1 Q and A. So I'm just droning on. I'm sorry if you want to know more details we can get into that in the Q and A. My thing says I'm good on time but I'm still good on time. Where are you going that's supposed to be monitoring me? 17 minutes. Okay. Oh, here's like a really, really, I don't know how well you guys can see this up there. I know it was like really scrunched and everything. But what I went ahead and did with my budget after I cracked this password, it gave me a bigger budget, was bought a shit ton of GPUs just to see what the actual efficiency of every single one was against the CUDA multi-forcer that Bitweasel did. And I also did some just basic crunching. So if you look at this, this slide is in your CD and you can actually go on to our website once it's up. Cuckoo's Nest.net. It'll be live in two weeks. You can actually get the latest updates on this. This actually tells you you're banged for your buck. So in the very bottom right corner there, you're going to see those gold things. That's your bang for buck for either keys versus dollars, keys versus core, keys versus memory. And all a key is is a password. Like we just referred to it as a key, but that just means a password that we tried and it worked or it didn't work. Silver is second place and bronze is bronze, third place. So that's kind of how it breaks out. And these numbers actually are always, I tried to do bleeding edge. These numbers change so frequently because New Egg and Amazon and Fries are always competing and trying to keep the prices lower and things changed dramatically. But at the time of these slides made about four weeks ago, this was the current dollar amounts for each of these GPUs and the efficiency of each one. So right now, if you have the ATI HD 5970, which I think is in shortage, like a lot of people didn't have it anymore. Like everybody wanted them for Bitcoin generation that like they just ran out of GPUs. So if you can find one that's actually the most efficient one, the biggest bank for your buck with the OCL hash cat. And maybe that'll change after I have an offline discussion with Weasel over here. And he's working in open CL currently. Very good. So we'll get back to that. So this is what SanDisk is going to do. This is what I submitted to this my CIO has a good idea. So what I told him was, how would you like to have a computer on the top 100 of the top 500 supercomputers? And he said, what were you going to save me money somewhere else before I give you this budget? So I ended up saving him about $225,000 on our pen test by going with a boutique shop with some personal friends of mine. So he's like, well, you saved me $200,000. That's clearly not $200,000. You can have that money. So hopefully by December, we'll actually have this live and working. And I'll actually be able to show you this live. I'm going to do a VPN in maybe from Schmucon or something like that and actually show you 80 GPUs cracking 150 trillion passwords per second for $52,000. So yeah, the GPU count is 40, but that doesn't, it's actually 80 because like I said before, the 59 or the GTX 590s are two GPUs each. So yeah, so actually, it's 136.8 trillion passwords per second is what we have. But if I can work with Bitweasel and get that more efficient, maybe we can make that faster. And it's actually going to be, I know I just told you guys, ATI is the best bet, but it's going to be NVIDIA simply because we want to put this computer on the top 500 list just to be assholes. And the way to do that is with Linpack and Linpack only supports CUDA GPUs, which means you have to use NVIDIA. Unless somebody wants to write me on Linpack for ATI cards, then I'll go with that. That'll actually bring this cost from 52,000 down to $38,000 for a top 100 supercomputer. I'll pay you if you can save me money. I'll actually pay you the difference just to make it happen. But I have no problem throwing money at problems. Remember, if you were here for the beginning, I am a CISO. So if I can't figure it out, I'll throw money at it, either hire somebody or do outside development just to get it done. So that's the problem you have when you have like a former black cat now running the show, where if you can't figure out the answer, he's going to find somebody who's going to figure out and pay him well to do it. So just keep that in mind if you have some gigs and you want to pitch something to me. If it sounds like a good idea and it makes sense for Sandus to do it, I'll pay you to do it. You can take your credit, but we're going to totally enjoy the fruits of your labor, and then later we'll open source it because it's my call. So not to spin my own wheels, but you guys do finally have one of your own in the high ranks of a Fortune 500 company, and I'm going to abuse my power until they kick me out. All right, moving along. So this is the brute force calculator, so I'm going to do a switch over to the brute force calculator here with my really awesome screen resolution. So this is also on the disk. If it's not, just ask me and I'll get you one, and I have the latest numbers here. So this is what I did a cut and paste of, but you can essentially, this is totally ripped off of some site that did this, and I just retooled it for the latest numbers, which you can say is I want an eight character password. What's my time to live if I decide to use an eight character password? And it's 10 days. So you have 10 days with, let me show you the current costs down here, $2,000. It was $3,000, now it's $2,000. If you don't think your password is worth more than $2,000, just have it be eight characters. Because it'll be cracked, it doesn't matter what it is, whether it's NTLM or MD5 or SHA-1, or even SHA-256, because it's just cracking passwords. It takes about 10 days and $2,000 if you have an eight character password. And like I said, you can do it in 23 hours for $3,000 with Amazon Web Cluster. What? This is 92 character sets. So anything that's printable on your keyboard, period. Is it the crazy ones where you do like an alt, shift, special character? No. Who's doing that? Nobody. Okay. 0.01%. 0.01%. And congratulations, you defeated my thing. But for the rest of you jerks in the audience, which is everybody else, you're screwed if you're having it. So think about your Google password. Think about your PayPal password. If you got eight characters and you say, well, you know, it's Google, it's PayPal, it's all these other people. Gawker got hacked two years ago, December, January, December 08, January 09, Google admitted that they had a problem and some of their Gmail accounts got broken into. That's why they have two-factor authentication. Okay. So if you think that all these places, especially Yahoo, I know the new CISO over there and let me tell you, make sure it's over eight characters, okay? Sorry, Justin. So just think about any of your passwords. Ten days. That's what your password is worth, that eight characters. It's done with. Now, here's the surprising thing because this is a password calculator. I can type whatever I want into it. Nine. What does that work out to be? Anybody can guess? It's 10 days for eight. I got two months, one year, 10 days. No. Surprisingly, just adding one character is 2.6 years. This is not a linear thing. This is an exponential thing. So just saying, okay, I can figure out one new character to memorize, just saves your ass that much more. So guess what? At Sand Disks, since I'm still trying to train people before we go to passphrases, everybody's required to have nine characters. Yeah, it's one more than eight and everything's superficial. The proof is in the pudding. 2.6 years for $2,000. Now, of course, if I throw more money at it, say, I don't know, $52,000, that number will go down. So let's look at what that number goes down to. $52,000. 18 days. Just to remind you guys, the number two supercomputer on the top 500 list is a Chinese supercomputer with GPUs. And let me articulate my voice a little. A Chinese supercomputer is number two on the list. As of two months ago, it was number one. The Japanese took over. So the Chinese are getting your eight characters and your nine characters. Super computer status? Less than a minute. So let's revisit that discussion about two-factor authentication. Right? That's why we're here. That's the whole point of my talk. I got yelled at at Schmuckan during the panel that my answer to everything was two-factor and they're saying it cost a lot of money. Let me remind you, PayPal does it for free. USA does it for free. Google does it for free. Your company already has it. Are they sharing your tokens with third party vendors in a secure manner? Federated passwords, right? Open ID, all that stuff. Are they doing that to make it happen so that we all can move to two-factor? It's just in the age of Chinese espionage, you just have to have two-factor. That's just the way it is. Whether you work at a private company, whether you work for the ACLU, whether you work somewhere else that they care about your stuff, you just have to have two-factor. That's just the long and the short of it. Anybody want to see what Qualcomm's 12 character looks like? I think it starts getting into galactic years. Qualcomm requires 12 characters. Do they require it yet? You two guys over there? I know he was talking about it and I was like, wow, what a jerk, 12 characters. Start inspecting people's keyboards now. You see it's all pounded out here already. It gets into.01 galactic years. Yes, for all those curious galactic years is a legitimate thing. It takes 21,000 seconds entries. That's a long time. How about those supercomputers in China? For now, you're okay. If you haven't noticed with GPUs in the high-performance computing realm these days, guess what? Like five years ago, we were only doing one petabyte as the number one computer. We're now at 320 petabytes, or not petabytes, petaflops. Thank you. We're at 120 petaflops per second. That's the number one computer. In just five years, we've just more than 100% growth in that field. How long do you think that's going to last? We had to start thinking about things like better salts, two-factor authentication, that sort of thing. I'm running really low on time, if not out of it, five minutes. I don't know how many more slides I have. I'm just going to buzz through these real quick. Yes, we had a pillow fight instead of live demos. If you really want to know more about it. Oh, NTLM is dead, if you haven't heard. If your Active Directory domain administrators are still using NTLM to do federated passers back and forth, throw something heavy at them, preferably a brick, and tell them to move over to Kerbos. Let's learn from Gawker, Sony, and others, or how we got F'd in the A with the D. That's not even federal prison. That's like burrito up the aspect status right there. You got to really think about it. Gawker, the guys that just pooned everybody until kind of only got pooned themselves. How many of you shared that password with all your other passwords? You don't have to raise your hand. Just think about it in your head how dumb you were. So, Sony, we all had our PlayStation online accounts. We can all admit it. They said your credit cards weren't stolen. They were stolen. Come on, let's not joke ourselves. Your credit card wasn't stolen, but you get one free year of credit monitoring service. But don't worry, it wasn't stolen. Okay. I do have some buddies over there and they can eat a bag of something. A little sidebar on that. Two thirds of their security team actually got fired over that. Because when they came back online and 30 seconds later they got reponed. And they're like, oh, okay, I get it. You guys are all fired. So think about that when you guys got on for a minute, changed your password to the secure password that got pooned again that you use for all your more secure things. So I mean, that's really my big push for two-factor. So definitely like try and figure out multiple passwords. And this gets into the thing of password safes. Use a really good password, maybe even a two-factor authentication password for your iron key or other technologies that are out there. And then you can have some unruly 32-character-long special character thing that you can cut and pay somewhere else. So long as you're not using the password to get into your password safe for all this other stuff, it makes a better sense to do that. And if it gets pooned and then there's these public lists that people can GPU password crack like Gawker and Sony, you're not going to be that idiot that's got the eight-character password, right? So no offense, I keep on calling you guys idiots and you came to my talk. And we just talked about that. Salting passwords. I was going to do a, what do you call it? Conan O'Brien in the year 2000. There it is. Yeah. I practiced that all year just to not do it. So we will say as far as that's concerned, like I said, supercomputers are only as exponential as we're seeing with GPU password crack, with the complexity of these passwords. So really think about that as far as what your passwords are, what your password policies are. Even if you're an individual contributor at your company, you can still come back and say, here's my password calculator. Don't listen to me because I'm just some schmo that you don't care about. That's just doing all your current work. Listen to the calculator. It doesn't tell any lies. If you are a mover and a shaker in your company, make it happen. Start doing all these educational things. Show all these slides to the people in your company and say, no, this is how you're F'd in the A with the D. And I'll be quite frank with you guys. This is a SanDisk slide. I had this conversation with the C-level staff there and I did not remove that out of this slide. I told the CIO he's going to get F'd in the A with the D if he doesn't change his policies. That's how serious I am about it. My point of coming up here and just babbling on to you guys is to kind of make you just as serious as I am. Quantum computing, when that happens, we all can just pack it up and go home. So if you're not on two-factor by then, you're just F'd. Like seriously, I don't even have a clever witty thing to say for that. You're just going to have just like a Bukake fest like 24-7, just in and around your mouth. My fiance is just looking at me like you did not just do that. So think about that. And that's any second now, right? IBM and Toshiba and Samsung are like on the verge of quantum. So think about that. Conclusion, questions and answers. I think, sorry, I can take, am I out of time already? Am I a jerk? Okay, I can take one question and then remind you guys that there's a Q&A track one near here and you can ask me a bunch of more questions. Sorry that I just kind of carried on. So who's got the first hand for a question? That guy right there. Stand up. What's your name? Okay, his name is Skunkworks apparently because he can't listen to me. Skunkworks, what is your question? Application-specific integrated circuits. You're talking about FPGAs? So integrated circuits is very similar to FPGAs. It's the same thing as GPUs because you're making a purpose-built embedded solution. It's getting, I think the costs right now are prohibitive for that. But later on, oh yeah, thank you very much everybody.
 Hello, welcome to economics of password cracking in the GPU era. This actually sounds more  corporate than DEF CON normally allows for, but we'll get through this. Obviously, I work  at Sandisk, so I use their slide deck things. So, what we're going to cover today, so we're  just going to do a quick introduction of who I am and why we're here and why you should  stay in the talk for the entire duration. We're going to cover GPU cracking, like some  fundamentals one-on-one stuff. Then we're going to get into the meat of it, all the  economics of it. We're going to explain how fast and quick it is to deploy. We're going  to do like a little lessons learned. If you haven't noticed, I'm pretty corporate. And  then we'll do a conclusion that's going to have some Q&A and some afterthoughts. Oh,  that. There it is. Q&A. Shameless plugs. I love these. These are all my sponsors. So,  I used to work for Atheros Communications. The CFO came to me one day and said, here's  a $3,000 budget and an Excel spreadsheet that's password protected. Break into it and let  me know. Get back to me when you break into it. So, it cost me about $300 to break into  his Excel spreadsheet, but I still had a bunch of budget, so I kept going forward. So, this  talk is mostly because of them. So, thank you Atheros for giving me time, even though  they don't exist anymore. It's Qualcomm now, which brings me to my other one. So, Atheros  got bought out and I just cashed in all my stock options. Apparently, Qualcomm already  has a CSO, so I didn't have any purpose over at Atheros. SanDisk needed one, so now I'm  the CSO over there. So, I'm a technical CSO, so you shouldn't get up and run away once  you hear the word CSO. If you guys don't know what that means, it's a Chief Information  Security Officer. So, I actually do soup to nuts. I actually do all the architectural  reviews, the deployments, all that other kind of stuff, and all the boring stuff like policies  and procedures and talking to C-level staff. But they continued the funds on this and we're  going to show you in a much bigger way than $3,000 later on. People of Earth, I definitely  appreciate you guys. I couldn't have done this talk if you didn't screw up on a consistent  basis, so I appreciate that. Thank you. And electricity. So, like, if we look at the laws  of electricity, there's the path of least resistance and that kind of ties in with the  people of Earth. So, thank you. Anywho. Oh, yeah, I got to give mad greets to my crews.  Vegas 2.0, that's the people that I associate with. I don't have my lab code on today because  UPS really sucks. Don't believe the commercials. They do not love logistics. DC949. You guys  know all those crazy guys. The party was pretty good last night until it got shut down in  concert with all the other parties in the towers. And the Cuckoo's Nest. This is the  private hacker space up in the Redwood Hills. It features 50 meg internet, dual 50 meg internet,  and septic tanks. So, it's kind of like a CougenCon for those of you that know what  that's all about. So, thank you, everybody, for all your efforts in there, making this  happen. Oh, another shameless plug. A word about RSA tokens. So, one of my lessons learned  is you need two-factor authentication. And I was all geared up for that. And then some  assholes decided to, like, totally let their systems get pwned. So, I'm like, well, don't,  if you're going to do two-factor, don't do RSA, obviously, because that didn't work out.  So what I have here is these special keychains. So, I don't know if you can see very well,  but it would help if it's right side up. So, since I am the CSO and I had to redistribute  3,000 RSA tokens to all my users, and that was a pain in the ass, I collected all the  original tokens from my users. So, they still generate numbers. And I was like, what the  hell am I going to do with 3,000 RSA tokens that have no purpose because the Chinese have  all of their seeds? And then I saw on the internet on a Tricia and somebody superimposed  a bottle opener to the side of one of these as a joke. And I was like, well, screw photoshopping.  I'm just going to like actually attach bottle openers to all my dead RSA tokens. So, and  normally I buy American and everything, keep our economy going and all that, but I figured  since this was special, I got all my bottle openers from China. So, every single bottle  opener actually says men and China on it. So, what you have here is an RSA bottle opener  from China. So, I figured I'd throw some of these out to the audience. I did have 180  of them and apparently I'm down to eight leading up to the talk. So, I'll chuck these out.  They actually have some significance around 2 a.m. tonight, so I won't tell you more than  that. That's I guess a big enough clue. So, if you have one of these and you're in the  right place at 2 a.m., it'll be of use. Otherwise, just enjoy opening bottles of beer with your  pointless RSA token. Some of these I think actually will go for the next five years.  So, it'll still generate numbers for five years to nothing. So, unless you're Chinese  and you actually have a use for it still. So, I'll go ahead and chuck these out and  then get started.  Where are you Matt? I don't want to hit you again. Oh, I almost got her. I mean. I'm  going to try to get in the back here. There you go. You look like a girl. One more. Any  of you guys make it to the summit on Thursday night? Oh, what a bunch of jerks. So, the  summit was an EFF fundraiser. We gave out about 50 of these at the fundraiser as well.  So, if you're there, you got one already. All right. About me. So, why should you listen  to what I'm saying and all this other crap? So, I got four years of credit card security.  You may remember me from DEF CON 11 through 13. I did some talks on how to steal credit  cards from merchants directly. I felt that everybody was talking about the consumers  and all the carters in the world and nobody was talking about the businesses getting rape  blind. So, I talked about that for about three years. I developed IDPS technology into code  so for websites. So, websites that are self-healing and they detect when people are doing evil  stuff and go into offensive mode for the Department of Energy, which they loved it and let me  research that for three years and then scrapped it. So, if you want to foyer that, it's actually  some interesting stuff. And for the last two years, I've been doing a lot of GP, GPU, password  cracking stuff. All the suit and tie crap, I've been doing IT security for 12 years.  I've been in development roles, research roles, SOC analyst roles, incident response roles,  tactical red team, tiger team, red versus blue fill in the blank. And a bunch of holistic  crap like policies and procedures and training and yearly refreshers and all that other stupid  junk that you don't care about here. And the private hack space. So, we have trees and  servers to muse over. So, it's in the middle of the redwood forest. There's about 15 trees  and about, I think we're up to 48 terabytes of storage out there. Just doing cool stuff.  So, if you're in the Bay Area and you want to go to this crazy forest resort hack space,  just give me a ring. Okay. Now, what you actually came here for. So, sorry about all the sand  disk slide things. So, what is general computing? So, there's a thing that people say they get  confused with GPUs and general computing. So, general computing just means that you have  a whole bunch of tools in your arsenal. So, that's where OpenCL comes in. So, OpenCL is  supposed to say you can program for the platform. So, if you say, okay, do you have a GPU? If  yes, I'm going to do stuff using your GPU. If no, do you have SSE2 instructions? If yes,  I'll use that. And it'll just kind of keep going down and down. But it looks for preferential  devices. So, that way you don't have to sit there and like CUDA really sucks because you  can only do map, mapping routines with CUDA and nothing else. You can't say try and do  SSE3, which is not as fast, but it's still useful. And that's why a lot of people are  migrating from NVIDIA to ATI cards. And there's some other things involved with that. We'll  get into that. What is the current state of general computing and high performance computing?  So the top 500, it turns out that of the 100 of the top 500 that topped the list, about  80 of those now topped the list because they have graphics processing units or general  purpose graphics processing units, which are mostly the Tesla 2050s. So we're actually  seeing that like every time that that list gets republished, it just gets decimated with  more GPUs. So if anybody's wondering if GPUs are going to really stay or if they're just  like a pass a thing or invoke right now, it'll be pass a later. I don't think so. I think  everything's going to move over to GPUs. Another thing about GPUs that people don't understand  and I always use every microphone I can to promote this, if you know what a DSP is, a  digital signal processor, that's all a GPU really is. It's just sample rates, right?  Something comes in and it just keeps on checking, checking, checking, checking over and over  and over again. Like a really fast clock. That's the core. Yeah, somebody at NVIDIA will say  it's a lot more than that. But when you really think about it from a EE perspective or a  S perspective, it's just like a really super crazy FPGA or DSP processor. Cloud computing.  So everybody's like, hey, you know, everybody loves GPUs, so let's get into it. So Amazon  web clusters and EC2 elastic cloud computing, they were the first to come out with it with  the actual GPUs. The rest of these guys also have stuff. So if you want to do this stuff  on your own and if you look in the CD, I have all the kit and everything you need to get  started, you can be cracking passwords on other people's hardware in no time or if you  want to do bitcoins if that's still popular, you can do it as well. I think at one point  before the bubble burst with bitcoins, it was actually cheaper just to use an Amazon EC2  to mine bitcoins. And even though you're paying per hour, you're still getting more back once  your 50 coins came up. But I think the bubble burst and now it's just stupid to do that.  You might come back if it is really a serious thing that people care about. Do I sound like  I'm droning on? Yeah, oh, sorry. I'll try not to. Yeah. Thank you. That was dumb. Okay.  So you got distributed not in that folding at home, set at home and bitcoins. And according  to the crack me if you can guys, there actually will be a distributed password cracking pretty  soon. I don't know if I was supposed to say it to this many people. Oops, you'll get over  it. Although get over it. But that's coming soon. I think that's the crux. Like if we look  at what we're doing with password cracking, that to me is like the holy grail. Like once  that happens, like if you don't have toe factor, you're dead. It's just not happening anymore.  Let's get into actual GPU cracking. So the hardware, like I had to catch myself up on  all this once he gave me $3,000. So this is the main ones out there. If you want to buy  the top of the line thing for your bitcoins or GPU password cracking on the Nvidia side,  you want to use the GTX 590. All they really said was it's the same thing as the two GTX  250 series. They said, well, we couldn't figure out 260. Thank you, sir. No, no, no, you don't  even know what I'm talking about. Shut up. So the 260s, what they did was said, we have  a processor and we don't know quite yet how to make it faster. So let's just put two GPUs  on one card and just say it's double the speed. That's all the 590 is. It's just two 580s  crammed onto one card. So when they say 1024 cores, it's really 512 cores per GPU. So when  you're doing cracking, it actually breaks it out. You actually see two GPUs actually  crunching your numbers, not one. So that's a little bit of an issue. And so we have here,  it says times eight cells. So it's just like the PS3, right? They say that they have the  cell processing. So each core has eight cells. It's the same technology because Nvidia is  the one that uses that for the PS3. So there's a real problem with this. We'll get into that  later. So even though you have 8192 streams, we'll quote that, it still doesn't compete  with Radeon's HD 5870, which is 1600 cores. And there's a 5970, which they did the same  thing as the 590 did, it said 1600 plus 1600. So you just have to have a really big ass  power supply to handle one card. Just checking my notes to see if I missed something. Oh,  I guess I am supposed to talk about it here. So why does everybody switch over? When you  think of bitcoins, I'm just going to keep referring to that because everybody knows  that they like money and they like to switch to stuff that works. So Nvidia won out of the  gate as far as cracking passwords and bitcoins and all these other things because they had  the CUDA. And CUDA is just this development environment. They had a lot of examples, a  lot of free tech nets, a lot of webcasts, all this stuff. So I was able to hit the ground  running and Radeon, or Radeon, ATI had this thing called Streamkit. And Streamkit was  just this gaudy, klugey piece of crap with not really good documentation. So all the  developers said, well, Nvidia is pretty solid company and stable and CUDA is pretty well  documented. We're going to start doing that. But what people found out later on, especially  when ATI started promoting OpenCL, is that you actually get a lot more performance out  of the Radeons. And the reason why is it's the Sysk versus risk argument, right? So Sysk  has all these pre-determined processes. You just send it in like SSE2 and all this other  stuff in MMX. So you just tell it to do one thing, one instruction, and that instruction  knows to do 15 others that are pre-programmed. Radeon is just like what, why I really loved  the 68K processor on the PowerPC side for the longest time. It was, well, as long as  you're willing to code it, it's going to be more efficient and faster and actually get  better performance. So when you look and you actually do a map function on a CUDA, it's  going to look at 512 cores and it's going to do a map across 512 cores as if there were  no cores. So you're not, you're only using one cell per core instead of all eight cells.  Now, just because you're not a good programmer or you just don't really don't understand  CUDA. Now OpenCL said, we don't care. As long as it's a stream, you can address it. So now  you're writing the same exact code in OpenCL and you're saying, go across 1600 cores and  do 1600 process map functions simultaneously. So that's a lot faster than 512 map functions.  So that's why it's important to kind of point that out of why ATI, and this is getting to  like a really bits and bytes level, why ATI is better than NVIDIA, not because their logo  is red and the other one is green, but that's why everybody's moving over. And if NVIDIA  doesn't change their processes, if they don't change their architecture, they're going to  lose this war and it's going to be ATI that's going to be the market leader and save AMD  for a little while. So what else? Oh, we just went over all that crap. Okay. I should probably  pay attention to my next slide thing here. Okay. Cracking software. What's out there? So  OCL Hashcat, I put it on the top because right now it's a top contender. IG Hashcat, which  is Igor from Russia. He's got one. And then the CUDA multi-forcer, which is missing in  action as of today. Are you Bitweasel? Well, your website's been down forever, dude.  Well, you know, you would have been number one. I saw a little background real quick.  This is the first time I'm meeting this guy. So I actually partnered up with, can you stand  up for a second, Bitweasel? So this is a funny story. While I'm at Ethereum, I am not a CUDA  programmer. And I need to find a CUDA programmer and I had the $3,000 budget. So I call up  Bitweasel and I say, if I just buy you a bunch of brand new cards, can you do some exclusive  programming or at least stave off the code to other people and just give it to me early?  And he said, sure, no problem. Next, you know, I dropped shipped a couple of video cards  so that you can get the multi-card thing going. And everything's happy, go lucky. And then  all of a sudden the website was missing for two months when I was making these slides.  And I'm like, what happened to Bitweasel? And apparently, I don't know, you were on  a drunken stupor or something? So a server failure. So you can write CUDA programming,  but you can't keep a server up. All right. So as of right now, you're in third place  behind these guys as far as your efficiency in your algorithm. So, and I'm kind of an  asshole that way. I don't mind saying that right directly to you. So, and actually my  slides actually show you still ahead, but I didn't revise them yet. But, well, good.  Maybe later on this weekend I can do some joint stuff with him and show you guys the  most efficient code. So CUDA multi-forcer Kim's prepackaged on backtrack four. Is it also  on five? Is pure hate in the room? Are you auditing mine and seeing if I'm full of shit  or not? No, I guess not. Oh, speaking of which, is F5 here? Or F9? Please step to the front  please. That was redundant. So she's part of the scavenger hunt and I'm supposed to give  her a lot of shit, otherwise Civiac will bust my balls. So if you can just sit up here with  me, don't worry, I put on deodorant this morning. Thank you. Anyways, so CUDA multi-forcer,  this is the one I started off with and this is the one I was able to actually crack a shit  ton of passwords with. So thank you for that bit, Weasel. But right now OCL hashcat, which  is run by Adam, something or other, he's in the current lead because his ATI card with  the OCL, which is the OpenGL framework. So this is my buddy for the duration of the talk.  And her mic's not on, but she says hi. Current benchmarks, so we're going to go over benchmarks.  They're all going to be based on NTLM, Windows Active Directory, MD5 for the websites and  small, salt-based passwords and this one's for you. Smart. Where'd you go? Where's Jackie?  Anybody watch Epic Mealtime? Salt-based passwords, smart. Okay, you guys in the audience get  it, that, no, that stuff. So what's in a mask? So, okay, let's talk about this. This is what  I really love about password cracking is how stupid humans are and the path of least resistance.  So, now that you guys know earlier in the year, and I'm going to start picking this  up faster because I think I'm way behind on my time. And we have a special thing. We don't  have a live demo, but we have a consolation prize for you guys, so don't get up and run  away because the live demo's not here if you're a dude or a lesbian. It's really worth it  to you to stick around. Intent nudge, nudge. So at my company, Sandisk, or any other company,  and now apparently a docker because they got smart, was, hey, you need an uppercase, lowercase,  a number, a special character, it has to be minimum of eight characters, right? Well,  this sounds all hunky-dory and dandy and even pure hate. I'm kind of biting on his style  a little bit because he got into this and BitWheels came up with a custom cracking tool  to help out with this, where you said, okay, uppercase, lowercase, numbers. What do humans  do? Oh, I got to do an uppercase. You know what? I'm going to make that my first character.  It's going to be uppercase just because I got to remember that the first one's uppercase  because they're making me do an uppercase. Well, if 99% of my organization, and I don't  work at Ethereals now, I can tell you this, 99% of Ethereals started off with uppercase  before I came in. And I was like, guys, I just cracked all your passwords in like two  hours because your eight character password now went to a seven character because I only  checked uppercase in the front. And so we actually put in the GPO policy there. You  no longer can use an uppercase character that is required at the beginning of your password.  So doing something simple like that actually saves you a lot of grief. It pisses off users  because they're like, Christ, now I have to start putting my password under my keyboard  again. So because they just can't think. And we'll talk about what really means about that.  So that's what we say is what's in a mask. So when you actually say, okay, I have a ten  character password, it's really strong. Well, yeah, if it starts with an uppercase and ends  with a number, and then every 90 days when I make you change it, your last character  went from one to two to three. Or even the special characters on the keyboard, you went  from a pound to an at, or bang to an at, to a pound to a dollar sign. It's like, okay,  I'm pretty sure the Chinese could figure that out, you idiot. So we actually had to put  all these really specially crafted GPO rules in to kind of combat this kind of natural  path of least resistance of users. So that mask, so you can say, okay, we're cracking  passwords, we're doing brute force, yada, yada, yada. It's taking forever, eight characters  takes 23 hours, that's a long time. You know, you can start using masks and now seven characters  takes an hour and 15 minutes. Especially, and with the mask, your mileage varies, it  may be about eight hours to get every masked seven character password. But that'll get  75% of your passwords. So if any of you are in the crack me if you can contest, that's  what we call in the business a clue, okay? So, and they're probably like reeling over  to like, what an ass, so he just told like 200 people how to break into our whole contest.  But they'll get over it. So that gets into the passphrase concept. So interestingly enough,  I was in India for two weeks trying to convince them to use better passwords and they were  scared that I was making them use 10 characters. And I said, well, you know what? Think of  a passphrase, right? I only eat tandoori chicken on Saturdays, even when the wife complains.  Yeah. Now use the first letter of all those things and you permute eight eyes for bang  signs and A's for at signs and that sort of thing. And remember to put a capital letter  in there somewhere. And suddenly you're just saying in your head, I only eat tandoori chicken  on Saturdays, even when the wife complains. And you have a really, really complex password  that you can just say in your head and just use the first letter and make sure you have  pre-mutations on some of those letters. And all of a sudden that's a really freaking good  idea, you know? So I think that's like the crux of everything. You can probably leave  right now if you want to miss out on the lesbian action. That's really like the whole point  of me being up on stage today. Two factor in you. So you guys all got your cool passes  to that thing at 2 a.m. If you didn't, sorry. Oh, yeah, there's a giggle there. We already  talked about that. So I'm mad props to Google. I mean you can love them or hate them and  maybe they're not doing evil and maybe they are doing evil. Who knows? But they're the  first email client that's public that gave away a free two factor authentication option  and I use it. So even when I'm on my computers I use every day, I still use it just as a  matter of course. It's just a really freaking good idea, you know, especially if they're  giving it to you for free. So even in our organization we're prepping everybody to do  two factor. And if you work at Qualcomm, any Qualcomm employees here that want to admit  you work for Qualcomm, you guys all know that your VPN requires two factor and all your other  shit in house requires two factor, right? Nod your heads. Yeah, they're nodding their  heads because Josh like just absolutely requires that over there and he's like hardcore about  the two factor and it's just a good idea, you know, and there's, we'll talk about why  that matters right now actually. God, I've been drinking too much. Secure off, this  is actually, or semantic VIP, so I don't talk about RSA anymore as a good two factor option  just because like the Chinese just cut through them like butter and they're probably doing  it again as we speak. So semantic VIP, that's the old verisign two factor authentication.  That saying, you know, it's on your phone, so on your smartphones you can have a two  factor here. And the thing I always tell people is, oh, you don't like two factor authentication,  think about your smartphone, right? How often do you lose this versus your car keys? So  go ahead, just keep this around, lose your car keys and you have your second factor.  So stop bitching about me making you carry around your phone that you're already carrying.  So you can do that with semantic VIP. You can do it with RSA as well, but it's RSA, so  my rep's going to get so mad at me if she's listening to this right now. Secure off, anybody  have Chase banking online? You can omit it, only one will omit that they use Chase. Come  on, who had Washington Mutual? You're all poor bastards in here. I got Washington Mutual  accounts, they're Chase now. So when you try and log into your account, it says, well,  you have your number on file, can I text message you a four digit code just to make sure it's  you? And that's what Secure Off does. They're the ones that are behind that, not some bolts  on the chase and you're going to start seeing it in a lot of other places. USAA does it  today. So for all you former military and jerks that just used your parents' military  experience to get your USAA accounts, they have to, yeah, that guy, they have two factor  authentication as well because they get it. You know, our military might not get other  things, but they get two factor authentication for their retired employees or their active  employees for USAA. Everybody knows that USAA is right? Okay, so for your foreigners, that's  the credit union that's exclusively given out to all of our military forces and their  families. And if you don't know what a credit union is, that's a place that's not an evil  bank. They're all non-profits. They're not allowed to churn a profit for personal gain,  so which they happen to be the largest non-profit. They're a Fortune 10 company, so, but non-profit  Fortune 10 company. So they have two factor authentication. That's just a really good  idea. And all these apps are free in the app store, in the Blackberry store, in the market,  the Android market. You can just download these apps and you can just demand of your  employees or of your companies and of your vendors that you use. I need two factor. PayPal  has two factor for free. E-Trade has two factor for free. USAA has two factor for free. Start  pushing everybody else. At Sandisk, what we do is say, we have two factor and you're  partnered with all your banks, guess what? The same token you're using to authenticate  with us, you can recycle that for your bank. And I'm not carrying around like this freaking  janitor's key of RSA tokens for all of your different things. This is for my Wells Fargo.  This is for my porn site. This is for my work. You know, you can do it all in one token.  All right, I'm done pitching it to you. Let's get into the economics. How cheap is it to  break passwords? Pretty cheap. So a locally hosted box is my recommendation. As long as  you don't mind a slightly higher power bill and it ends up being about $15 more a month  for a typical resident here in the United States. Private clouds are also a really good idea.  We'll talk about that as well. And local distribution. And that's getting into the whole SETI at home  thing where you can have all the computers in your environment, especially if you're a  development house like Sandisk. We have a lot of GPUs just laying around in all of our  development boxes. Like we want the top of the line thing and we're not going to use  that GPU ever. I'm like, well, okay, I'll use your spare cycles while you're having that  box doing nothing, okay, and crack your own passwords. Congratulations, you lose. And  so that's it. Yeah, the custom screensabers and everything you know and love. Public  cloud. Amazon. I was going to have a demo for you, but I don't have it ready. Oh, here's  my live demo. I didn't have a live demo, so I gave you guys girls pillow fighting. I think  that's DJ Jackalope there. And that's beer Betty there. Oh, you missed out on the lesbian  part. Smart. Okay. And there's your live demo of a girls pillow fighting. If you have those  RSA tokens, you'll see the encore production at 2am somewhere. Hint, tint, nudge, nudge.  Oh, a word about last bit and lcomsoft. It's definitely pound equals. So last bit is the  exact same thing as lcomsoft. Have you guys heard of these guys? Like on wired and Arc  soft and all that, or Arc site and all them. They did these expos days on them about 18  months ago and they said, hey, now you can pay somebody to do your password cracking  with GPUs. Yeah. Hopefully they don't take me out back and shoot me because they are  Russians. But these are both the same exact company and it's the same guy and he like  will just take your money and run. I had to do charge backs. I used an American Express  which has really good charge back coverage. So I was able to recover the money that I  lost for my $3,000 budget because I was just trying anything I could. I was like, I just  want to show this guy I can crack his password. So I tried buying the lcomsoft software. Didn't  work. You know, I had a brand new GPU in there and it says I don't see your GPU. So if you're  thinking about using these services, I'm just going to go ahead and say that it's crap.  It's rubbish. So if you're thinking about it or you already purchased it, get your money  back. And if you're in the room, guys, sorry, your stuff sucks. So the best thing I suggest  is like a local box. You can do the Amazon web cluster and this is how this works in  my mind. If you got 10 days on your hand to crack a password and $3,000, just buy a local  box. If you don't have 10 days you needed to have it done today, you do that vertical  versus horizontal thing. You know, vertically it takes 10 days to crack a password or you  can just spend the same $3,000 and go horizontal and just get a crap ton of GPUs at Amazon  and have them all cracking simultaneously and you can have it done in about 23 hours.  It can be the same $23,000 or $3,000. The only difference is on a single box you did  that once and you can keep doing it again and again and again. It just takes 11 days  for eight passwords. As opposed to like I just have a project and I just need to crack something  and move on with my life and I'll never crack a password again, then I would say just use  Amazon. But if you're going to do it for, you know, checking the strength of your employees'  passwords like I have to, you get a single box. And we'll show you what my box looks  like in just a minute. And we said distributed non-existent. Well, according to crack me  if you can, it will be existing pretty soon. And I want to work with them to do a Chrome  slash Firefox extension so you can also do like distributed storage of cracked passwords.  Who? I don't know about that. There's a GPU CPU distributed password  conqueror called DERDA. I don't know. D-U-R-D-A-N-E-O. Okay. Bitweasel is questioning your authority  on this subject. I'm not aware of this. Is it actually still developed? We'll talk  about that offline. Don't forget there's a track 1 Q and A. So I'm just droning on. I'm  sorry if you want to know more details we can get into that in the Q and A. My thing  says I'm good on time but I'm still good on time. Where are you going that's supposed  to be monitoring me? 17 minutes. Okay. Oh, here's like a really, really, I don't know  how well you guys can see this up there. I know it was like really scrunched and everything.  But what I went ahead and did with my budget after I cracked this password, it gave me  a bigger budget, was bought a shit ton of GPUs just to see what the actual efficiency  of every single one was against the CUDA multi-forcer that Bitweasel did. And I also did some just  basic crunching. So if you look at this, this slide is in your CD and you can actually go  on to our website once it's up. Cuckoo's Nest.net. It'll be live in two weeks. You can actually  get the latest updates on this. This actually tells you you're banged for your buck. So in  the very bottom right corner there, you're going to see those gold things. That's your  bang for buck for either keys versus dollars, keys versus core, keys versus memory. And  all a key is is a password. Like we just referred to it as a key, but that just means a password  that we tried and it worked or it didn't work. Silver is second place and bronze is bronze,  third place. So that's kind of how it breaks out. And these numbers actually are always,  I tried to do bleeding edge. These numbers change so frequently because New Egg and Amazon  and Fries are always competing and trying to keep the prices lower and things changed  dramatically. But at the time of these slides made about four weeks ago, this was the current  dollar amounts for each of these GPUs and the efficiency of each one. So right now,  if you have the ATI HD 5970, which I think is in shortage, like a lot of people didn't  have it anymore. Like everybody wanted them for Bitcoin generation that like they just  ran out of GPUs. So if you can find one that's actually the most efficient one, the biggest  bank for your buck with the OCL hash cat. And maybe that'll change after I have an offline  discussion with Weasel over here. And he's working in open CL currently. Very good. So  we'll get back to that. So this is what SanDisk is going to do. This is what I submitted to  this my CIO has a good idea. So what I told him was, how would you like to have a computer  on the top 100 of the top 500 supercomputers? And he said, what were you going to save me  money somewhere else before I give you this budget? So I ended up saving him about $225,000  on our pen test by going with a boutique shop with some personal friends of mine. So he's  like, well, you saved me $200,000. That's clearly not $200,000. You can have that money.  So hopefully by December, we'll actually have this live and working. And I'll actually be  able to show you this live. I'm going to do a VPN in maybe from Schmucon or something  like that and actually show you 80 GPUs cracking 150 trillion passwords per second for $52,000.  So yeah, the GPU count is 40, but that doesn't, it's actually 80 because like I said before,  the 59 or the GTX 590s are two GPUs each. So yeah, so actually, it's 136.8 trillion  passwords per second is what we have. But if I can work with Bitweasel and get that more  efficient, maybe we can make that faster. And it's actually going to be, I know I just told  you guys, ATI is the best bet, but it's going to be NVIDIA simply because we want to put  this computer on the top 500 list just to be assholes. And the way to do that is with  Linpack and Linpack only supports CUDA GPUs, which means you have to use NVIDIA. Unless  somebody wants to write me on Linpack for ATI cards, then I'll go with that. That'll  actually bring this cost from 52,000 down to $38,000 for a top 100 supercomputer. I'll  pay you if you can save me money. I'll actually pay you the difference just to make it happen.  But I have no problem throwing money at problems. Remember, if you were here for the beginning,  I am a CISO. So if I can't figure it out, I'll throw money at it, either hire somebody  or do outside development just to get it done. So that's the problem you have when you have  like a former black cat now running the show, where if you can't figure out the answer,  he's going to find somebody who's going to figure out and pay him well to do it. So just  keep that in mind if you have some gigs and you want to pitch something to me. If it sounds  like a good idea and it makes sense for Sandus to do it, I'll pay you to do it. You can take  your credit, but we're going to totally enjoy the fruits of your labor, and then later we'll  open source it because it's my call. So not to spin my own wheels, but you guys do finally  have one of your own in the high ranks of a Fortune 500 company, and I'm going to abuse  my power until they kick me out. All right, moving along. So this is the brute force calculator,  so I'm going to do a switch over to the brute force calculator here with my really awesome  screen resolution. So this is also on the disk. If it's not, just ask me and I'll get  you one, and I have the latest numbers here. So this is what I did a cut and paste of,  but you can essentially, this is totally ripped off of some site that did this, and I just  retooled it for the latest numbers, which you can say is I want an eight character password.  What's my time to live if I decide to use an eight character password? And it's 10 days.  So you have 10 days with, let me show you the current costs down here, $2,000. It was  $3,000, now it's $2,000. If you don't think your password is worth more than $2,000, just  have it be eight characters. Because it'll be cracked, it doesn't matter what it is,  whether it's NTLM or MD5 or SHA-1, or even SHA-256, because it's just cracking passwords.  It takes about 10 days and $2,000 if you have an eight character password. And like I said,  you can do it in 23 hours for $3,000 with Amazon Web Cluster. What? This is 92 character  sets. So anything that's printable on your keyboard, period. Is it the crazy ones where  you do like an alt, shift, special character? No. Who's doing that? Nobody. Okay. 0.01%.  0.01%. And congratulations, you defeated my thing. But for the rest of you jerks in the  audience, which is everybody else, you're screwed if you're having it. So think about  your Google password. Think about your PayPal password. If you got eight characters and you  say, well, you know, it's Google, it's PayPal, it's all these other people. Gawker got hacked  two years ago, December, January, December 08, January 09, Google admitted that they  had a problem and some of their Gmail accounts got broken into. That's why they have two-factor  authentication. Okay. So if you think that all these places, especially Yahoo, I know  the new CISO over there and let me tell you, make sure it's over eight characters, okay?  Sorry, Justin. So just think about any of your passwords. Ten days. That's what your  password is worth, that eight characters. It's done with. Now, here's the surprising  thing because this is a password calculator. I can type whatever I want into it. Nine. What  does that work out to be? Anybody can guess? It's 10 days for eight. I got two months,  one year, 10 days. No. Surprisingly, just adding one character is 2.6 years. This is  not a linear thing. This is an exponential thing. So just saying, okay, I can figure  out one new character to memorize, just saves your ass that much more. So guess what? At  Sand Disks, since I'm still trying to train people before we go to passphrases, everybody's  required to have nine characters. Yeah, it's one more than eight and everything's  superficial. The proof is in the pudding. 2.6 years for $2,000. Now, of course, if I  throw more money at it, say, I don't know, $52,000, that number will go down. So let's  look at what that number goes down to. $52,000. 18 days. Just to remind you guys, the number  two supercomputer on the top 500 list is a Chinese supercomputer with GPUs. And let me  articulate my voice a little. A Chinese supercomputer is number two on the list. As of two months  ago, it was number one. The Japanese took over. So the Chinese are getting your eight  characters and your nine characters. Super computer status? Less than a minute. So let's  revisit that discussion about two-factor authentication. Right? That's why we're here. That's the  whole point of my talk. I got yelled at at Schmuckan during the panel that my answer to  everything was two-factor and they're saying it cost a lot of money. Let me remind you,  PayPal does it for free. USA does it for free. Google does it for free. Your company already  has it. Are they sharing your tokens with third party vendors in a secure manner? Federated  passwords, right? Open ID, all that stuff. Are they doing that to make it happen so that  we all can move to two-factor? It's just in the age of Chinese espionage, you just have  to have two-factor. That's just the way it is. Whether you work at a private company,  whether you work for the ACLU, whether you work somewhere else that they care about your  stuff, you just have to have two-factor. That's just the long and the short of it. Anybody  want to see what Qualcomm's 12 character looks like? I think it starts getting into galactic  years. Qualcomm requires 12 characters. Do they require it yet? You two guys over there?  I know he was talking about it and I was like, wow, what a jerk, 12 characters. Start inspecting  people's keyboards now. You see it's all pounded out here already. It gets into.01 galactic  years. Yes, for all those curious galactic years is a legitimate thing. It takes 21,000  seconds entries. That's a long time. How about those supercomputers in China? For now, you're  okay. If you haven't noticed with GPUs in the high-performance computing realm these  days, guess what? Like five years ago, we were only doing one petabyte as the number  one computer. We're now at 320 petabytes, or not petabytes, petaflops. Thank you. We're  at 120 petaflops per second. That's the number one computer. In just five years, we've just  more than 100% growth in that field. How long do you think that's going to last? We had  to start thinking about things like better salts, two-factor authentication, that sort  of thing. I'm running really low on time, if not out of it, five minutes. I don't know  how many more slides I have. I'm just going to buzz through these real quick. Yes, we  had a pillow fight instead of live demos. If you really want to know more about it.  Oh, NTLM is dead, if you haven't heard. If your Active Directory domain administrators  are still using NTLM to do federated passers back and forth, throw something heavy at them,  preferably a brick, and tell them to move over to Kerbos. Let's learn from Gawker, Sony,  and others, or how we got F'd in the A with the D. That's not even federal prison. That's  like burrito up the aspect status right there. You got to really think about it. Gawker,  the guys that just pooned everybody until kind of only got pooned themselves. How many  of you shared that password with all your other passwords? You don't have to raise your  hand. Just think about it in your head how dumb you were. So, Sony, we all had our PlayStation  online accounts. We can all admit it. They said your credit cards weren't stolen. They  were stolen. Come on, let's not joke ourselves. Your credit card wasn't stolen, but you get  one free year of credit monitoring service. But don't worry, it wasn't stolen. Okay.  I do have some buddies over there and they can eat a bag of something. A little sidebar  on that. Two thirds of their security team actually got fired over that. Because when  they came back online and 30 seconds later they got reponed. And they're like, oh, okay,  I get it. You guys are all fired. So think about that when you guys got on for a minute,  changed your password to the secure password that got pooned again that you use for all  your more secure things. So I mean, that's really my big push for two-factor. So definitely  like try and figure out multiple passwords. And this gets into the thing of password safes.  Use a really good password, maybe even a two-factor authentication password for your iron key or  other technologies that are out there. And then you can have some unruly 32-character-long  special character thing that you can cut and pay somewhere else. So long as you're not  using the password to get into your password safe for all this other stuff, it makes a  better sense to do that. And if it gets pooned and then there's these public lists that people  can GPU password crack like Gawker and Sony, you're not going to be that idiot that's got  the eight-character password, right? So no offense, I keep on calling you guys idiots  and you came to my talk. And we just talked about that. Salting passwords. I was going  to do a, what do you call it? Conan O'Brien in the year 2000. There it is. Yeah. I practiced  that all year just to not do it. So we will say as far as that's concerned, like I said,  supercomputers are only as exponential as we're seeing with GPU password crack, with the complexity  of these passwords. So really think about that as far as what your passwords are, what  your password policies are. Even if you're an individual contributor at your company,  you can still come back and say, here's my password calculator. Don't listen to me because  I'm just some schmo that you don't care about. That's just doing all your current work. Listen  to the calculator. It doesn't tell any lies. If you are a mover and a shaker in your company,  make it happen. Start doing all these educational things. Show all these slides to the people  in your company and say, no, this is how you're F'd in the A with the D. And I'll be quite  frank with you guys. This is a SanDisk slide. I had this conversation with the C-level staff  there and I did not remove that out of this slide. I told the CIO he's going to get F'd  in the A with the D if he doesn't change his policies. That's how serious I am about it.  My point of coming up here and just babbling on to you guys is to kind of make you just  as serious as I am. Quantum computing, when that happens, we all can just pack it up and  go home. So if you're not on two-factor by then, you're just F'd. Like seriously, I don't  even have a clever witty thing to say for that. You're just going to have just like  a Bukake fest like 24-7, just in and around your mouth. My fiance is just looking at me  like you did not just do that. So think about that. And that's any second now, right? IBM  and Toshiba and Samsung are like on the verge of quantum. So think about that. Conclusion,  questions and answers. I think, sorry, I can take, am I out of time already? Am I a jerk?  Okay, I can take one question and then remind you guys that there's a Q&A track one near  here and you can ask me a bunch of more questions. Sorry that I just kind of carried on. So who's  got the first hand for a question? That guy right there. Stand up. What's your name? Okay,  his name is Skunkworks apparently because he can't listen to me. Skunkworks, what is  your question? Application-specific integrated circuits. You're talking about FPGAs? So integrated  circuits is very similar to FPGAs. It's the same thing as GPUs because you're making a  purpose-built embedded solution. It's getting, I think the costs right now are prohibitive  for that. But later on, oh yeah, thank you very much everybody.
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