FOSS in Animation
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Rousseau, Frank
The Animation industry has always been ruled by proprietary software, mainly from Autodesk, Adobe and The Foundry. But recently we noticed a rise of interest in software like Blender or Krita. Alongside them, initiatives like the Academy Software Foundation are popping. Last but not least, more and more studios publish the sources of their in-house software. During this conference, we'll explain how a typical production pipeline works. Then, we'll discuss how open source impacts animation productions and what we can expect for the future. As a conclusion, I'll explain how studios collaborate more together through free and open-source software.
 Hello, first of all, I'm going to introduce you to talk to you about free and open source software in animation industry. Things evolved pretty quickly since a few years. So when Christophe proposed me to make a talk at the Open Media Dev Room, I thought that it would be a good idea to speak about how things are evolving in the animation industry. So before going further, I'm going to introduce myself. I'm Frank Rousseau. I'm a first entrepreneur. I did the first company which was doing open source personal clouds. After that, I created a new company which is a CDIR, a very big company of three people, including me. When we at CDIR, we work for the animation industry, we do production tracking software, but everything as free and open source software. Aside of that, I did some side projects, contributed to some others, and I worked since now 15 years. So I had the opportunity to see many things and many software projects. Now let's go to the animation. Before talking about the software that are used now, I'm going to explain you very quickly how to make an animation production. So here I'm going to talk mainly about 3D because when it's about 2D animation, everything is proprietary so it's not so interesting for this talk. So there are three big steps to make a movie. There is a pre-production. Mainly it's about writing the story and look for funding. There is the production step, which is the one we will interest us is the production step. I will go back very soon to it. And there is the post-production step where there is mostly fine tuning and refining of the movies. So in the production step, we have many departments, many things to do. The first thing is the layout. It's like the directing of the movie. We create shots and we put everything in place but with only a low polygons asset and just to make sure that every shot is good in a directing point of view and that they match properly the storyboard. There is some R&D to make sure that the artistic direction is doable and that some effects are possible. Then start the real creation of the movies. There is the modeling phase. It's about sculpting the 3D elements. After that, there is texturing. Every elements are painted and some settings are done to manage the reflection of the light on the elements. Then there is the rigging step, which means that we add bonds to every asset that are going to be animated. Then we do the animations. Mainly it's about taking the elements of the layout, including the high polygons stuff to animate them to make sure that at the end we have a nice shot. This is the most time consuming part of the movie. Then we add some VFX, some lighting to make things a little bit more artistic. Finally, we finish with the rendering, which can be very long because one frame can take hours or days to render. For a feature film, for instance, you have approximately, you have an average of 130,000 frames. All of that requires a lot of different skill sets, different people with different expertise and many software. What we have to understand is that the animation industry has really a proprietary mindset. For them, pictures must not leak. Pictures belong to the producer. It's like we don't share, there is this notion of not really sharing the IP. There is a strong notion of IP. When it's about software, we can see that it's something similar. Most of the big software are proprietary. They come from Autodesk, the Foundry, Adobe, or Toon Boom. There is a challenger, which is SideFX. They do really interesting software, but only proprietary. But reality doesn't really fit with the proprietary mindset. What is happening is that in every industry, they need to reduce costs. They need more for more automations. And there is a lack of developers. Now, every developer works for startups, GAFA, and everything like that. So there is not so much people to do software in the animation industry. And before that, they thought that they could make a difference with their technology, that the studio could be more competitive because of its technology. But now, they are figuring out that it's mostly the artistic specificities that will help them to stand out from the others. Sorry. So they decided to go up on source. For that, many of the big players decided to work on more interoperability between software, they decided to stick to proprietary digital creation content tools. And for that, they decided to work on more standardizations of file exchange because mainly when you do a production, before a few years ago, when you did a production, you could use only one software. Now, you have many software involved. You have Maya, software like Maya, like Substance, Mari, ZBrush. You have to use many tools to make a really beautiful picture. It's a choice, but you can now, really big productions use many, many tools. And so they need some standardizations. And for that, they created several five formats and associated libraries to manage them. So like there are formats like Alambic, ABC, which is one of the most used, I think, where here it's used to store the coordinates of the animation. So it's the first step towards more interoperability. There is a USD. This probably is the most exciting format because it's really aimed at enabling collaborative work, and there is some kind of layering in any, with every change. So it really helps to work from different tools and with different people on it. And there are some others. This is a non-exhaustive list. There is others, but there is other formats that happens on different parts of the production that are used on different parts of the production. And there is another interesting story. It's the story of OpenQ. It's a Wonder Farm manager that was built at Sony, something. And it was kind of acquired by Google. I think the main developer was hired by Google, but it's something like this. And it's, yeah, but Sony decided to open source it. It was the first time that the full software was open sourced by a big company like this. And yeah, so it's interesting. And then it became used by, now it's now maintained by ASWF, Academy Software Foundation, Academy Software Foundation, which is the meeting. Sorry, I forgot. I don't find the right word, but this is the meeting of several big companies, GAFA, big studios like Quetta, ILM, from now Disney, and big companies and some, and with some free software actors like Blenders or Inexplanations. And their goal here is to maintain, mainly maintain all the library used for these five formats. Yeah, another interesting thing is Epic Games. They do Unreal Engine, which is not really used in animation for animations. It's only used for some, some from Cinematic, for video game cinematics. But what they do is that they give money to some open source projects, which can be, which is still interesting because it brings some fuel to improve some software. So everything we talked about was really interesting, but it's more about big corporations. That's not so, that's not really what we like. Now let's talk more about free software. Free software is weird, free software is sometimes ugly, but it's much more exciting and much, much more fun. So I propose now that we focus more on this and talk less about the big ones. So the first thing to understand is that in animation, Python is king. Before that, many of the software had their own scripting language, which are mostly badly designed and not well documented. So quickly, people, CG artists, tended to use Python instead of the proprietary scripting language. And now Python is the default language for everything. Every time someone wants to do a script, you use Python, which is interesting because it's not C sharp, it's not Java, it's really Python, which is, to me, it's really a more community driven language. Yes, it's more community driven language, so it's interesting. And other tools that are widely used, I think one of the first tools which were widely used is the FFM peg. So it's interesting because a few years ago, it was like, wow, it's open source, so we don't want to use it. And now it's like the default software to process videos, to melt them, et cetera. There is a res, I don't know if you know this, but it looks widely used outside of animation too. It's a packaging system to deploy easily tools on desktop machines, especially on Windows. When you have a lot of machines, you can use res to package complex deployment. And there are some image processing libraries that are used. Another interesting thing is that there is a strong culture of self-hosting because they don't want that picture leak and because they always have an overloaded network because all files are really big and the network and they need to watch a lot of video on YouTube for their, for their, as references. So they like to have everything hosted locally because they can have better performance and they have a sense of security. The result is that they deploy a lot of software themselves and so they use C-substooling and communication tools like Matermos, Riot, et cetera. And they can, they prefer to use Linux for their workstation because it's much more pluggable. There is this notion, I forgot to mention it, but there is this notion of pipeline in animation which means pipeline basically is the glue between every department and every steps of fabrication. So let's go a little bit faster now. Blender, so Python is king. So let's say that Blender is queen. There is since a few years and especially since the latest version arrived as 2.8. So there's really a lot of excitement around Blender. It's, yeah, it's, yeah, it really changed. I don't, the community is very active, of course, but it becomes, it comes from the fact that there is a lack of CGRT's like there is a lack of developers. So prior to that, people were kind of scared that to use Blender because CGRT's were not trained to this. But now the question is more how do I find good CGRT's? So when you find a good CGRT's, you find the tooling is not, the priority is to find a good CGRT's not to find the CGRT's, we know the tools of the studio. So this is one of the, that was one of the main blocks to use Blender. So now it's not anymore there. So the result is that Blender was used on many productions. It really made their users happy. And now we have full productions like this one, MushMush, it will be broadcasted in next, the next year, I think. But now we have full productions done with Blender, which is really a big change. And there is another big event is that I Lost My Body. It's an animation movie which is nominated to Oscar and which had a price at NC Festival, the equivalent of a Cannes Festival. And I Lost My Body was done with Blender too. So I think it's really a big change in the industry to see that now you can do a full qualitative productions with Blender. Plus, they added many more features, they had many very cool features like real time like a real time viewport. So it's really faster to make movies and to have feedback on what you are doing. And there is this grease pencil thing that allows you to basically make 2D animation inside Blender, which is great for many studios. Without the other main tools, there is GIMP. GIMP still has a bad reputation because most people don't like the UI. It's a little bit sad, but the result is that it's not used much on productions. There is the case of Netron. Netron is not considered as good enough compared to proprietary software, but it's still the only first alternative. The main issue today is that the maintainer's life, I didn't follow what happened next, but the maintainer's life, so there is a kind of order. And it's sad because people really would like to have an alternative to Nuke, which is very expensive and doesn't work that way. I forgot to tell that Netron is mainly for compositing. So what is compositing is just adding some effects on a final video. Not final, for the case, but when you have rendered all your pictures, you can add some other effects. And it's done at the compositing steps. It's more, most of the time, it's considered the steps to fix some bugs in the video. And what is very interesting, which is really more interesting, I think, is Krita. Krita is not widely used today, but it has really good reputation. Every CG artist would try it, love it, and it could replace at some point the Photoshop for everything that is background. Because in animation movies, most of the time, even in big VFX movies, the backgrounds are 2D pictures that are done with Photoshop or similar. Here are some pictures made with Krita that I took from the gallery, Krita Gallery, so you can see that you can do everything you want with it when it's about 2D pictures. Now there is another phenomena which is very interesting too, is that we have small to mid-size studios who are now open sourcing some of their software. It's not big software, but it just means that the mindset is changing and it creates excitement in the community of developers in animation, which is good and which will probably lead to more interesting software in the future. There is another good case, Lefe Special, it's a studio which uses only free software, and the open source, everything is white, which is very nice to see. And there is my company, CGWire, what makes it a little bit special is that we are the first company in the animation field to propose free software, which is we basically propose a project management tool named Production Tracker. What makes it really great is that for us it was the opportunity to create more collaborations between studios. So for that we organize some meetups where people can share best practice on the same model as here. It didn't exist really for the animation, so we organized them and we created some online chat group and I published content on our blog. So that's important because the fact to publish an open source software allowed us really to create more collaborations between studios. And yes, I think that the first project is not only code and it can really benefit the side of the feature, it can really benefit to the world industry, towards the mindset it brings. To conclude, things were pretty bad a few years ago, now they are getting better, we have more and more software, more and more first software that are used. We have big players, are many interested in interoperability, small and mid-sized studios are going further and try to use open source everywhere. Free software brings more collaborations and Blender is life, it's good and it's beautiful and we are happy to see that it's successful today after such a long time. Thank you for your attention. And if you have any questions, please feel free to answer. And we have a question. Do you think that someday we will have an alternative to Nuke if open source, if nature disappears? I'm not sure it's related to nature. What surprised me is that no one tried to do it. It would really be a good idea to make an alternative to Nuke. Starting from nature sounds to me more like natural, so I'm not sure it's a good idea to kill nature and to have an alternative. Next question. What is in your opinion the largest slash most important component in these workflows that is mainly supported by open source communities as opposed to the tools coming from or funded by studios? Python, FSM, Peg, GIMP, CineTimes? I don't really get the question, but I think the most, is it in this list? Okay, the largest component today that is emerging is really Blender because you can use it on every step of the production. So you can imagine to now to have a pipeline, production pipeline based on Blender, which is quite audacious, but it's possible. So the fact that it makes it probably the main component of a pipeline. It's hard to compare with Python because Python is everywhere. So of course it's the biggest, but it's more like a low level thing when Blender is really the central software of a production. What we see too is that Blender is more appreciated by some modellers or some animators. So sometimes they do their work in Blender and then they import it in Maya to allow to be compatible with the rest of the production. But it's, yeah, it's really, it can be really adapted to any situation. So yeah, I would say that it's Blender. Last question, what is the scenario for video editing that I checked KDNR was having instability issues? I don't know well video editing. No, I don't know. I don't know really well the software. I'm mostly focused on 3D and 2D creations. Because editing is, yeah, it's almost another subject. When they're in animation production, when they have the storyboard, they really have to stick to it. Sometimes they can work with a dedicated video editor, but I'm not used in us to this problematic to talk about it. One question from on four. Yes. So what about Blender certification? I know this is the way you can take the better certification that's around the better institute. What is your take on that and how can you change that? I'm not really, oh yeah, okay. What about the Blender certification? I don't really know about education. What I can tell is that now, this is what I told before, studios understand that they have to train people to Blender. So studios which decide to go with Blender know that they will have to train people that come to their studio. Of course, certification are interesting because for some others, it's always easier to do if you have someone who is already trained to Blender. Now there is another phenomena is that there are a lot of, because there is a lack of CG artists, there is something like every month, a new CG school that is popping. So probably at some point, they will include more Blender training. But currently in education, I don't see much Blender. That's why the certification of Blender Institute is probably interesting for the moment because there is not much alternative. There is no much alternative to this. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
 Hello, first of all, I'm going to introduce you to talk to you about free and open source  software in animation industry.  Things evolved pretty quickly since a few years.  So when Christophe proposed me to make a talk at the Open Media Dev Room, I thought that  it would be a good idea to speak about how things are evolving in the animation industry.  So before going further, I'm going to introduce myself.  I'm Frank Rousseau.  I'm a first entrepreneur.  I did the first company which was doing open source personal clouds.  After that, I created a new company which is a CDIR, a very big company of three people,  including me.  When we at CDIR, we work for the animation industry, we do production tracking software,  but everything as free and open source software.  Aside of that, I did some side projects, contributed to some others, and I worked since now 15  years.  So I had the opportunity to see many things and many software projects.  Now let's go to the animation.  Before talking about the software that are used now, I'm going to explain you very quickly  how to make an animation production.  So here I'm going to talk mainly about 3D because when it's about 2D animation, everything  is proprietary so it's not so interesting for this talk.  So there are three big steps to make a movie.  There is a pre-production.  Mainly it's about writing the story and look for funding.  There is the production step, which is the one we will interest us is the production  step.  I will go back very soon to it.  And there is the post-production step where there is mostly fine tuning and refining of  the movies.  So in the production step, we have many departments, many things to do.  The first thing is the layout.  It's like the directing of the movie.  We create shots and we put everything in place but with only a low polygons asset and just  to make sure that every shot is good in a directing point of view and that they match  properly the storyboard.  There is some R&D to make sure that the artistic direction is doable and that some effects  are possible.  Then start the real creation of the movies.  There is the modeling phase.  It's about sculpting the 3D elements.  After that, there is texturing.  Every elements are painted and some settings are done to manage the reflection of the light  on the elements.  Then there is the rigging step, which means that we add bonds to every asset that are  going to be animated.  Then we do the animations.  Mainly it's about taking the elements of the layout, including the high polygons stuff  to animate them to make sure that at the end we have a nice shot.  This is the most time consuming part of the movie.  Then we add some VFX, some lighting to make things a little bit more artistic.  Finally, we finish with the rendering, which can be very long because one frame can take  hours or days to render.  For a feature film, for instance, you have approximately, you have an average of 130,000  frames.  All of that requires a lot of different skill sets, different people with different expertise  and many software.  What we have to understand is that the animation industry has really a proprietary mindset.  For them, pictures must not leak.  Pictures belong to the producer.  It's like we don't share, there is this notion of not really sharing the IP.  There is a strong notion of IP.  When it's about software, we can see that it's something similar.  Most of the big software are proprietary.  They come from Autodesk, the Foundry, Adobe, or Toon Boom.  There is a challenger, which is SideFX.  They do really interesting software, but only proprietary.  But reality doesn't really fit with the proprietary mindset.  What is happening is that in every industry, they need to reduce costs.  They need more for more automations.  And there is a lack of developers.  Now, every developer works for startups, GAFA, and everything like that.  So there is not so much people to do software in the animation industry.  And before that, they thought that they could make a difference with their technology, that  the studio could be more competitive because of its technology.  But now, they are figuring out that it's mostly the artistic specificities that will help  them to stand out from the others.  Sorry.  So they decided to go up on source.  For that, many of the big players decided to work on more interoperability between  software, they decided to stick to proprietary digital creation content tools.  And for that, they decided to work on more standardizations of file exchange because  mainly when you do a production, before a few years ago, when you did a production,  you could use only one software.  Now, you have many software involved.  You have Maya, software like Maya, like Substance, Mari, ZBrush.  You have to use many tools to make a really beautiful picture.  It's a choice, but you can now, really big productions use many, many tools.  And so they need some standardizations.  And for that, they created several five formats and associated libraries to manage them.  So like there are formats like Alambic, ABC, which is one of the most used, I think, where  here it's used to store the coordinates of the animation.  So it's the first step towards more interoperability.  There is a USD.  This probably is the most exciting format because it's really aimed at enabling collaborative  work, and there is some kind of layering in any, with every change.  So it really helps to work from different tools and with different people on it.  And there are some others.  This is a non-exhaustive list.  There is others, but there is other formats that happens on different parts of the production  that are used on different parts of the production.  And there is another interesting story.  It's the story of OpenQ.  It's a Wonder Farm manager that was built at Sony, something.  And it was kind of acquired by Google.  I think the main developer was hired by Google, but it's something like this.  And it's, yeah, but Sony decided to open source it.  It was the first time that the full software was open sourced by a big company like this.  And yeah, so it's interesting.  And then it became used by, now it's now maintained by ASWF, Academy Software Foundation,  Academy Software Foundation, which is the meeting.  Sorry, I forgot.  I don't find the right word, but this is the meeting of several big companies, GAFA,  big studios like Quetta, ILM, from now Disney, and big companies and some, and with some  free software actors like Blenders or Inexplanations.  And their goal here is to maintain, mainly maintain all the library used for these five  formats.  Yeah, another interesting thing is Epic Games.  They do Unreal Engine, which is not really used in animation for animations.  It's only used for some, some from Cinematic, for video game cinematics.  But what they do is that they give money to some open source projects, which can be, which  is still interesting because it brings some fuel to improve some software.  So everything we talked about was really interesting, but it's more about big corporations.  That's not so, that's not really what we like.  Now let's talk more about free software.  Free software is weird, free software is sometimes ugly, but it's much more exciting and much,  much more fun.  So I propose now that we focus more on this and talk less about the big ones.  So the first thing to understand is that in animation, Python is king.  Before that, many of the software had their own scripting language, which are mostly badly  designed and not well documented.  So quickly, people, CG artists, tended to use Python instead of the proprietary scripting  language.  And now Python is the default language for everything.  Every time someone wants to do a script, you use Python, which is interesting because  it's not C sharp, it's not Java, it's really Python, which is, to me, it's really a more  community driven language.  Yes, it's more community driven language, so it's interesting.  And other tools that are widely used, I think one of the first tools which were widely used  is the FFM peg.  So it's interesting because a few years ago, it was like, wow, it's open source, so we don't  want to use it.  And now it's like the default software to process videos, to melt them, et cetera.  There is a res, I don't know if you know this, but it looks widely used outside of animation  too.  It's a packaging system to deploy easily tools on desktop machines, especially on Windows.  When you have a lot of machines, you can use res to package complex deployment.  And there are some image processing libraries that are used.  Another interesting thing is that there is a strong culture of self-hosting because they  don't want that picture leak and because they always have an overloaded network because  all files are really big and the network and they need to watch a lot of video on YouTube  for their, for their, as references.  So they like to have everything hosted locally because they can have better performance and  they have a sense of security.  The result is that they deploy a lot of software themselves and so they use C-substooling and  communication tools like Matermos, Riot, et cetera.  And they can, they prefer to use Linux for their workstation because it's much more  pluggable.  There is this notion, I forgot to mention it, but there is this notion of pipeline in animation  which means pipeline basically is the glue between every department and every steps of  fabrication.  So let's go a little bit faster now.  Blender, so Python is king.  So let's say that Blender is queen.  There is since a few years and especially since the latest version arrived as 2.8.  So there's really a lot of excitement around Blender.  It's, yeah, it's, yeah, it really changed.  I don't, the community is very active, of course, but it becomes, it comes from the  fact that there is a lack of CGRT's like there is a lack of developers.  So prior to that, people were kind of scared that to use Blender because CGRT's were not  trained to this.  But now the question is more how do I find good CGRT's?  So when you find a good CGRT's, you find the tooling is not, the priority is to find a  good CGRT's not to find the CGRT's, we know the tools of the studio.  So this is one of the, that was one of the main blocks to use Blender.  So now it's not anymore there.  So the result is that Blender was used on many productions.  It really made their users happy.  And now we have full productions like this one, MushMush, it will be broadcasted in next,  the next year, I think.  But now we have full productions done with Blender, which is really a big change.  And there is another big event is that I Lost My Body.  It's an animation movie which is nominated to Oscar and which had a price at NC Festival,  the equivalent of a Cannes Festival.  And I Lost My Body was done with Blender too.  So I think it's really a big change in the industry to see that now you can do a full  qualitative productions with Blender.  Plus, they added many more features, they had many very cool features like real time  like a real time viewport.  So it's really faster to make movies and to have feedback on what you are doing.  And there is this grease pencil thing that allows you to basically make 2D animation  inside Blender, which is great for many studios.  Without the other main tools, there is GIMP.  GIMP still has a bad reputation because most people don't like the UI.  It's a little bit sad, but the result is that it's not used much on productions.  There is the case of Netron.  Netron is not considered as good enough compared to proprietary software, but it's still the  only first alternative.  The main issue today is that the maintainer's life, I didn't follow what happened next,  but the maintainer's life, so there is a kind of order.  And it's sad because people really would like to have an alternative to Nuke, which  is very expensive and doesn't work that way.  I forgot to tell that Netron is mainly for compositing.  So what is compositing is just adding some effects on a final video.  Not final, for the case, but when you have rendered all your pictures, you can add some  other effects.  And it's done at the compositing steps.  It's more, most of the time, it's considered the steps to fix some bugs in the video.  And what is very interesting, which is really more interesting, I think, is Krita.  Krita is not widely used today, but it has really good reputation.  Every CG artist would try it, love it, and it could replace at some point the Photoshop  for everything that is background.  Because in animation movies, most of the time, even in big VFX movies, the backgrounds are  2D pictures that are done with Photoshop or similar.  Here are some pictures made with Krita that I took from the gallery, Krita Gallery, so  you can see that you can do everything you want with it when it's about 2D pictures.  Now there is another phenomena which is very interesting too, is that we have small to  mid-size studios who are now open sourcing some of their software.  It's not big software, but it just means that the mindset is changing and it creates excitement  in the community of developers in animation, which is good and which will probably lead  to more interesting software in the future.  There is another good case, Lefe Special, it's a studio which uses only free software,  and the open source, everything is white, which is very nice to see.  And there is my company, CGWire, what makes it a little bit special is that we are the  first company in the animation field to propose free software, which is we basically propose  a project management tool named Production Tracker.  What makes it really great is that for us it was the opportunity to create more collaborations  between studios.  So for that we organize some meetups where people can share best practice on the same  model as here.  It didn't exist really for the animation, so we organized them and we created some online  chat group and I published content on our blog.  So that's important because the fact to publish an open source software allowed us really  to create more collaborations between studios.  And yes, I think that the first project is not only code and it can really benefit the  side of the feature, it can really benefit to the world industry, towards the mindset  it brings.  To conclude, things were pretty bad a few years ago, now they are getting better, we  have more and more software, more and more first software that are used.  We have big players, are many interested in interoperability, small and mid-sized studios  are going further and try to use open source everywhere.  Free software brings more collaborations and Blender is life, it's good and it's beautiful  and we are happy to see that it's successful today after such a long time.  Thank you for your attention.  And if you have any questions, please feel free to answer.  And we have a question.  Do you think that someday we will have an alternative to Nuke if open source, if nature  disappears?  I'm not sure it's related to nature.  What surprised me is that no one tried to do it.  It would really be a good idea to make an alternative to Nuke.  Starting from nature sounds to me more like natural, so I'm not sure it's a good idea  to kill nature and to have an alternative.  Next question.  What is in your opinion the largest slash most important component in these workflows  that is mainly supported by open source communities as opposed to the tools coming from or funded  by studios?  Python, FSM, Peg, GIMP, CineTimes?  I don't really get the question, but I think the most, is it in this list?  Okay, the largest component today that is emerging is really Blender because you can  use it on every step of the production.  So you can imagine to now to have a pipeline, production pipeline based on Blender, which  is quite audacious, but it's possible.  So the fact that it makes it probably the main component of a pipeline.  It's hard to compare with Python because Python is everywhere.  So of course it's the biggest, but it's more like a low level thing when Blender is really  the central software of a production.  What we see too is that Blender is more appreciated by some modellers or some animators.  So sometimes they do their work in Blender and then they import it in Maya to allow  to be compatible with the rest of the production.  But it's, yeah, it's really, it can be really adapted to any situation.  So yeah, I would say that it's Blender.  Last question, what is the scenario for video editing that I checked KDNR was having instability  issues?  I don't know well video editing.  No, I don't know.  I don't know really well the software.  I'm mostly focused on 3D and 2D creations.  Because editing is, yeah, it's almost another subject.  When they're in animation production, when they have the storyboard, they really have  to stick to it.  Sometimes they can work with a dedicated video editor, but I'm not used in us to this  problematic to talk about it.  One question from on four.  Yes.  So what about Blender certification?  I know this is the way you can take the better certification that's around the better institute.  What is your take on that and how can you change that?  I'm not really, oh yeah, okay.  What about the Blender certification?  I don't really know about education.  What I can tell is that now, this is what I told before, studios understand that they  have to train people to Blender.  So studios which decide to go with Blender know that they will have to train people that  come to their studio.  Of course, certification are interesting because for some others, it's always easier  to do if you have someone who is already trained to Blender.  Now there is another phenomena is that there are a lot of, because there is a lack of CG  artists, there is something like every month, a new CG school that is popping.  So probably at some point, they will include more Blender training.  But currently in education, I don't see much Blender.  That's why the certification of Blender Institute is probably interesting for the moment because  there is not much alternative.  There is no much alternative to this.  Thank you.  Thank you.  Thank you.  Thank you.  Thank you.  Thank you.  Thank you.  Thank you.  Thank you.  Thank you.  Thank you.  Thank you.  Thank you.
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