The Untold Story of Edward Snowden’s Escape from Hong Kong
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Rohrbach, Lena
Iwersen, Sönke
Tibbo, Robert
On June 9, 2013, Edward Snowden revealed massive civil rights abuses by the NSA. On June 10, Snowden didn’t know where to hide.
 The next talk is the untold story of Edward Snowden's escape from Hong Kong and how you can help the refugees who saved his life. We have three speakers today. Lena Rohrbach is an Amnesty International Germany's expert on human rights and the digital age and moral philosophy about training. Then we have Zunke Iversen, head of the investigative research unit at Handelsblatt. His specialty is uncovering corruption, fraud and gross mismanagement. And finally, Robert Thibault, he is a human rights lawyer in Hong Kong and incidentally one of Edward Snowden's lawyers and is still in contact with him today. And this is your stage and please give a warm round of applause to all three of those. Thank you. Hi everyone. Can you hear me? Very good. As if just been told, my name is Lena and I work for Amnesty International in Germany where I cover human rights in the digital age. We are still figuring out what exactly that means. But it includes issues of freedom of speech and information online and the human right to privacy which is being undermined by mass and targeted surveillance and lots of other human rights which are threatened or strengthened by the increasing use of ICT. Usually it's both at the same time. At Amnesty we are also part of the campaign to pardon Snowden which I'm going to tell you about today. Tonight you're first going to hear about Snowden and his current situation in Russia and then about his escape from Hong Kong and how to help the refugees who saved him. And I'm really happy to see many people here interested in this talk because I think there's a fascinating story to be told later. Unfortunately not my part of the talk but there's. And I believe it is an important story to tell especially in these times with the ongoing debate on refugees and asylum. Refugees are often portrayed as an anonymous mass more the object of political decisions than actors of change which themselves of course they also are. But before we come to that, let's start with the Snowden situation first. As you all know Snowden shared US intelligence documents with journalists in summer 2016 in Hong Kong which revealed the shocking extent of global mass surveillance. Snowden claimed that their sole motive for this was and I quote his own words to inform the public as to that which is done in their name and that which is done against them. But the US government branded him a traitor who as they say has significantly harmed US national security interests. So here's his current situation. After fleeing Hong Kong he was stuck in transit at the Moscow airport until he was granted a temporary right to remain in Russia. US authorities revoked his passport which interferes with his ability to travel to other countries and to apply for asylum in a country of his choosing. There have been several offers among them Venezuela, Bolivia and Nicaragua. He has been granted residency in Russia until August 2017. After that it could be extended or not there's no way to know yet. So why doesn't he just return to the US? At least President Obama seems to think that this is what he should do. Sorry. Okay, so we don't have phone and electricity. I'm very sorry about that. Can someone help me with that? I was going to show you a video and I believe that for environmental reasons you shouldn't give up on your old computers too early. So I'm still using my 80 year old MacBook and its batteries broke because as you all know they have a problem with the battery. It's a short intermission. Nice isn't it? Oh yeah. Very good. Thanks for giving me such a great cue. Why stop now? So the computer is rebooting now. I'm sorry the computer is rebooting as I said it's a pretty old one. There's something you can do while I'm waiting for it to reboot besides singing which is great. There are pens and papers next to the microphones 1 to 6 and you can just hand them out if you're sitting next to it. Just share them with others around you. So everyone has a pen and paper. It's just one paper. I see the spreading is commencing. That is nice. I hope you all are familiar with the 6 to 1 rule. Yes? Yes? No? 6 hours of sleep, 2 meals and 1 shower? Not every day. Every day. Of all 3 days. Who followed that? Hands in the air please. And everybody who did not follow that knows why she is not raising their hands. Some people joked about this 6 hours a day. That is quite a lot. 1 meal and only 2 hours of sleep. I'm exhausted already. There's lights flashing. I hope now this is going well. We'll take a few more minutes. You're doing a great job. He's doing a really great job entertaining you. Thank you very much. And you're doing a great job singing. That is actually quite nice when such thing is happening. I like your... So this is a picture I took in South Africa at a memorial for apartheid and the fight against apartheid. I thought it was a pretty war. South Africa, definitely. That was my first thought also. Sorry. I don't want to make fun of you. That's really your doing great job. Sorry guys. No, there's no stress. I think we have... No, we will keep a tight schedule. I know when I make loose comments about this is the last talk and then there's a big break. I will be slaughtered afterwards or at least beaten into a dark corner or something or drowned in chunk or something. Which would not be that bad actually. Not drowning. But I could show resistance at the first... Not go there I think. Another thing is I think we have not only those three around here. So far I can give you hints who's also maybe attending the thing. Some of you maybe have recognized that there's a little bit more going on at this corner where we have set up all the technical stuff and that there's some new equipment arrived from another room. But that is enough hints I think for the most of you. I am hypnotized by this pieces of wood or is it actually rock? Another joke. So when somebody is able to articulate then you have way too much processing power in your brain left. So let's do teaser. So everybody silently in your head think of a number between 1 and 10. Not telling that the other guys silently. And then multiply it by 9 please. And when you have the result add up the single digits. So when you have 23 you add 2 plus 3 is 5 like that. Then you divide 5. You got that? Okay when you... No not divide 5 subtract 5 I'm sorry. Subtract 5 not divide by 5. Subtract 5 I'm sorry. And now you count through the alphabet. When you have a 1 you take a 2b 3c 4d 5e and so on and so forth. And now this letter you have with your result. In your head silently search for a country starting with that letter which has a border with Germany and a fruit. Denmark and Dutch... Denmark and dates or Dutch and dragon fruit? No? Maybe I give away the secret about this. I think Obama wants to talk. Yes? He doesn't want to talk. He just wants to look a little grumpy and I think that's because he knows that what he's going to say is not going to resonate well with you. For good reasons. I'm sorry. We had this copyright 2.0 just about two hours ago in this hall. Maybe you want to give a summarize of what he's saying. Yeah probably. When we can't pursue him to speak up or on. Yeah the problem is that I have more videos on here. So I'm terribly sorry about that. If I had a worst case scenario how this would go it would be my computer without electricity for a few seconds. And I guess we should just change and I'll do my part later. And you do your parts first. I'm so sorry about that. Okay. I'm just going to stand here and wait until you make your decision. Okay. That works. Sorry. Yes you. God bless you on that now. What's happening? Nothing. Hello? Well? Again, pipe. We have to start now. You can do it. It's starting. You don't see it? I really like to start. Oh, it's nice. Okay. Good evening. Thank you for coming. My name is Zernke Iversen, and I'm an investigative journalist at Handelsblatt, which is for those who are not from here. I'm from here. I was born in Hamburg. I spent most of my life here. And then I went out into the world. Now I'm at Handelsblatt, which is like the German Financial Times, the Wall Street Journal. And since 2012, we founded at Handelsblatt an investigative research unit, which is like the spotlight team of Germany, of my paper at least. And so we cover mismanagement, fraud, corruption. Sometimes when we do well, people go to jail. And about a year ago, I came across the story of Edward Snowden that nobody had heard before. And I was surprised because I thought Edward Snowden, everything's told. The whole world media has covered it. But actually, there was a big part missing. And I would like to tell you today about that part and about the people who saved Edward Snowden's life and who have for three years remained completely silent on that. Many people have taken credit in the Snowden story. I will not name any names now. But those who actually saved his life when he came out and told the world about the mass surveillance, they have remained silent and they're in big trouble. So most of you, I assume, have seen this movie, Sit in Four. It's a very good movie. And again, you would assume that the documentary about Snowden, how Snowden became who he was and told the world about this would also tell everything there is to know about him. But again, there's a scene missing. There's something very big missing. Actually, two weeks are missing. If you remember, there's a scene right after the morning after he gave his interview with the Guardian. You see him in his hotel room, room 1014. And he's kind of walking around. There's a scene. He's looking in the mirror thinking of how can I reshape my face or dye my hair or cut my hair, put on sunglasses. He's holding a mirror at one point an umbrella. And then the phone rings and he's talking to somebody. And he's saying, okay, all right, are you sure? Because I can grab my stuff and I can just get out and you don't hear the other side of the conversation. But actually, the man on the other side of that telephone is here today. We will very soon hear from him. And then you see him hanging up the phone and he's just standing there. And you see him saying and you, I thought I must have why he's just standing there. This man is now sought after. The police is chasing him. The NSA is chasing him. The CIA. Everybody is chasing him. My colleagues, hundreds of journalists at that time flooding into the, to Kowloon in Hong Kong to search for Edward Snowden. And he's just standing there not moving. And then the next thing you see is the door opens. He's getting out of the hotel. And the next scene in Citizen 4 is actually two weeks later. Citizen 4 does not show where Edward Snowden hid in Hong Kong for two weeks before he boarded that aeroplane to Moscow, where he still is today. So, how did he do that? And I would like to welcome now to the stage the man who hid Edward Snowden for two weeks when the whole world was chasing him. So, obviously the most, the easiest question for me is where were you on that Monday morning, June 10th, 2013 when Edward Snowden became the most wanted man alive? Well, that was on June 10th and for a period of time as everyone knows, there was an unknown employee of the US government who was leaking information about the US government's spy. It was about 6 a.m. and my phone rang and I was tired on Monday morning. And I answered the phone and on the other side of the phone was a request for help. And it was explained to me, it was Mr. Snowden and that he had a video of him in an interview with the Guardian Glenn Greenwald had been televised. So, at that point, I jumped out of bed, I took a shower, put my suit on, grabbed my briefcase and got in my car and drove to the ferry pier. I live on an outer island and that was the fastest way to get to Hong Kong Island on a high-speed ferry. So, you can see Lantau Island and there's a high-speed ferry that goes across to Hong Kong Island. So, time was of the essence. As a lawyer, the approach I took was there was a man who was in immediate distress and I also understood that he was the most wanted man on the planet at that point. So, it was crucial that I had access to him as soon as possible. Yeah, so my job is very easy. How do you hide the most wanted men alive? Where do you hide it? What was going through your mind at that time? The first thing I needed to do was gain access to Ed and in Hong Kong, I had a solicitor with me. So, the first thing we had to do is because what he had done in my view was an act of political opinion expression. So, we had to get him to the UNHCR office in Hong Kong immediately so he could raise his asylum claim. And this was the first line of defense. If Mr. Snowden was arrested at any time, it was his refugee claim that would protect him from being removed from Hong Kong. We did that. We walked him into the UNHCR. So, in the film Citizen Four you see my colleague Jonathan Mann, a solicitor and I'm on the phone with Mr. Snowden basically and I told him, don't worry Jonathan Mann knows where to take you and we're going to the UNHCR. So, once Mr. Snowden raised his claim at the UNHCR for refugee status determination then the next step was we had to bring Mr. Snowden underground put him underground and take him off the radar. And we were concerned that the media would find Mr. Snowden and if the media found Mr. Snowden then the Hong Kong authorities would find Mr. Snowden. There's a US consulate in Hong Kong. They would know where he was. So, one of our biggest fears was the US government or third government would grab Mr. Snowden and unlawfully rendition him. Mr. Snowden would disappear. The approach I took was Mr. Snowden was an asylum seeker at that point a refugee and I have many, many clients who are refugees. So, it just made sense to place him within the refugee community. He was part of that community. The second reason is Hong Kong asylum seekers are so marginalized they're considered Hong Kong's version of untouchables that are the most reviled social group in Hong Kong. So, to place Mr. Snowden a man of his intelligence, status his experience with the US government and to place him in with the refugee community in Hong Kong. Mainly people from South Asia or Southeast Asia. This would be the last place the world would look. So, immediately after the UNHCR we took Mr. Snowden to stay with one of three refugee families. The second crucial reason aspect of this is we wanted, I wanted Mr. Snowden to be placed in the middle of the city. No one would expect Mr. Snowden to be hidden and played in sight. And the third reason was we wanted Mr. Snowden to have access to wireless communications where he could crack into any modem within the area. So, we placed him with a group of asylum seekers, three families and through that process Mr. Snowden was sheltered and he was taken care of. So, now we will introduce the people in Hong Kong the refugees who hit Snowden and we have pictures of them. Who is this? Now, this is one of my clients. This is Mr. Ajit Pushpa Kamara and he's a former soldier in the Sri Lankan Army. He's ethnic Sinhalese. It's about a former life in Ajit's life. This is 20 years ago. Ajit is an extraordinary individual. He was tortured. There was an attempt to extra judicially kill him and in the end he fled Sri Lanka. And I chose Ajit to help Mr. Snowden. Ajit has an extraordinary ability to move around undetected and to move people around. He has an extraordinary skill set and you don't know when he's there, you don't know when he's not there. Just an extraordinary man. So, he was the one individual that I trusted to help us move Mr. Snowden around. Yeah, so now you know that while the NSA and everybody else in the world was looking for him this was the man who protected him. Now, the sad part of this story is Ajit has been an asylum seeker for 12 years. Now, he fled after being tortured in Sri Lanka, tortured by the military. He fled and his asylum is still in progress, so to speak. And I think we have another picture. And this is where Ajit lives at this time. It's about 50 square feet. There's no windows. And one thing I'd like to stress is that in Hong Kong asylum seekers are not allowed to work. The government does not meet their basic needs and if they're caught working they face two years prison. So, Mr. Ajit's been in Hong Kong and the Hong Kong government has left him destitute. And the way they've treated this man, as with the other two families amounts to a violation of Article 7 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. Treating him in an inhumane and degrading manner. Nevertheless, Ajit has survived in Hong Kong. And the one the other aspect, another reason why I reached out to my asylum seeker clients is the asylum seekers all fled their home countries running for their lives. And when they met Mr. Snowden they saw Mr. Snowden as one of their own. When they fled they had to rely and trust and put their hands into other people's lives who helped them escape their home countries. The asylum seekers have the highest propensity to protect others. And that was the foundation upon which I knew I could trust my clients. And when asked they stepped forward and they said yes, we recognize him, we want to help him. It's an amazing experience. I met Ajit six months ago and when I asked him why did you help Edward Snowden? I mean you had enough problems on your own and this was a man who was sought after by the most powerful nation and military and intelligence service on earth. And the only thing he said was, of course I helped him. He was a refugee, I was a refugee. Of course I helped him. And this is the next set of hosts for Mr. Snowden. Now, this is the second family. The gentleman here is Supoon Kelapata. And that's his partner, Nadika. Supoon is Sri Lankan, Sinhalese, and he fled Sri Lanka based on political persecution. And his partner, Nadika, she fled Sri Lanka based on gender persecution. And very typical in a country like Sri Lanka gender persecution involves, unfortunately, rape and human trafficking and at times servitude and slavery. So these two extraordinary individuals fled to Hong Kong. Supoon, more than 10 years ago, Nadika, more than 7 years ago. And both of their children were born in Hong Kong. And one thing I would stress is the two children are stateless. They have no nationality. And the Hong Kong government by law refuses to give them any status in Hong Kong. This is the place where they live. And right now the Hong Kong government has not provided the support for the young girl, Sepumdi, and she's not receiving an education in Hong Kong. But I'll move on to another subject later on what we've been doing as lawyers to help these families to make sure they're not destitute at this time. Yes, we have another picture when this is where they live. You see? So they live in literally one of the poorest areas of Hong Kong. And they live in a flat that's about 150 square feet. The other thing I would like to mention is that the screening system for asylum seekers in Hong Kong is so grossly unfair that the acceptance rate since 1992 in Hong Kong for asylum seekers is 0.36%. So effectively all asylum seekers who seek refuge in Hong Kong are rejected. And the three families I'm representing, they're looking at their cases being rejected because the system is just so grossly unfair. Yeah, so that's them. And this is the fourth refugee who sheltered Edward Snowden. And incidentally baked him a birthday cake for his 30th birthday and her daughter, which you will see in a moment, sang a happy birthday song to Edward Snowden. This is Vanessa. She's from the Philippines. She was a victim of gender persecution and she fled to Hong Kong. And she's the fourth adult or the third family that provided shelter to Mr. Snowden. Yeah, that's her daughter. This is her daughter, Kiana. And the one thing I would mention is that since their identities were revealed to the public, the Hong Kong government has targeted Vanessa and her child and has asked her questions about Mr. Snowden. And when she refused to answer those questions, the government cut off all assistance to her. So she gets no assistance for food or rent or education for her daughter. They cut her off completely simply because she refused to answer questions about Mr. Snowden. Yes. That's you and her. That's me. So I visited these families in summer. And shortly before the movie of Oliver Stone came out, we published the full story in my paper at Hunlis Blood. And well, good and bad things happened. There was a lot of, there was an outpouring of helpfulness. I got a lot of calls and emails from around the world of people who wanted to donate to these families. And let me see. There's a movie. I'm not going to talk about that because journalists don't usually get calls from the nations. So we set up that is also in summer. This was in July this year. I traveled to see Mr. Snowden in Moscow shortly before the film Snowden came out. But it was at that time I had discussed with Mr. Snowden the situation of the three families because they were portrayed in the Snowden film. And the decision was taken and the clients were advised to protect them. It would be better to introduce them to the public before the film came out. So that the public would have a very clear idea and clear understanding of who they are, what they did for Mr. Snowden. Basically to make sure the public understood and understood them as human beings. And Mr. Snowden was in full support of that. Mr. Snowden is very concerned for my clients and he's also assisted them financially. But what we've done is we've set up a GoFundMe crowdfunding campaign. You have the site that's the website to collect. Even Snowden that the thing is, why did we print this article? Well first it was a story untold. For three years these people have remained quiet because that's what they all agreed on, Snowden and the refugees. And then the movie comes out and if you see the Snowden movie of Oliver Stone it's an exciting movie but the people who actually saved his life have about 60 seconds of screen time. If you see the movie it's just a brown mass of helpful people and then they are gone again. So I thought it would be really good to tell the full story and Snowden himself actually was surprised when you told him he had no idea that these people who saved his life were still in the same place where they were three years ago. He was asking why are they still refugees? And actually that's a good question. The answers the Hong Kong government will not let them leave, they will not let them stay, they will not let them work. They are just staying in this miserable presence. And so this website GoFundMe was set up because so many people wanted to help and you can see somewhere on this site there is like on this website seven or eight hundred people have donated and well, that's a good thing that happened. The bad thing was that the Hong Kong government actually cut when they found out about these donations they cut off the service, the money and the families that they received and so this is actually almost the only thing they have donations and well now there is new hope, there is a second website and it's like this is a fundraiser page maybe you want to talk about the lawyers who are trying to get these people to a better place. Well, with the GoFundMe page we have been able to take those financial resources and distribute them to the three families in Hong Kong so that their basic needs are met and this has provided them with a lot of emotional security and certainty in their lives at this time. Three lawyers I am from Montreal, Quebec originally and I have been working with three lawyers that I know and the three lawyers in Montreal have set up a fundraiser campaign and they are also making efforts to communicate with the Canadian government to advocate for Canada to take in the three families these are seven people and it's not a big stretch for the Canadian government to take them in. The Canadian GoFundMe, the fundraiser site has recently raised more money and again this is the second channel which is Canadian based and Canadian focused where we are trying to raise more funds for the families so we can sustain them in Hong Kong but we do have a view that the Canadian government should take steps to bring them into Canada not to set a precedent but on the basis that these seven extraordinary people protected a whistleblower so some of the difficulties we are facing are that a lot of people don't want to donate for fear that the US government would see that they have made donations to these three families these three families are innocent they have done nothing wrong when they helped Mr Snowden they did it in good faith and they never broke any laws one thing I want to stress is when Mr Snowden was in Hong Kong at no time was he a fugitive under Hong Kong law the US government never sent through a legally effective request for his arrest and extradition so these people need they need support they need moral support, they need public support and they need some financial support for help and I would ask everybody here and I would ask that everybody here ask communicate to whoever you know to have the public become aware of who these people are and no matter how small the donation every euro, every dollar counts yes thank you so if everybody in here not donate immediately but I know you all have your phones in your pockets if you Twitter and Facebook and all that that would be really nice and we are going to try now to connect to Skype with one of the refugees she is still at home awake now it is well past midnight but we are going to try to Skype her in and you also may ask some questions hopefully this will work this will be my client Vanessa from the Philippines so what is your name? I am I am I am I am I am I am I am I am I am I am I am I am I am that is not her we do not know who that is let me try again while we are waiting this all took a little longer than expected and due to my computer problems I could either do my part of the talk and I would have told you about Snowden's current situation, how to help him about legal cruelties like the Espionage Act, World War I, he's being charged under and so on. I hope it would have been interesting, but I thought that with though little time remaining, it would be more important to give the people who helped him and her refugees in Hong Kong a voice than Amnesty International and me. So I'm going to skip that part so you can have an Q&A with her. Thank you anyway, sorry about that. APPLAUSE I think we can have a question in between, maybe if there's a... I don't know how that works. Is there somebody going around with a microphone or...? Should we start with a Q&A? Okay, so we try again with the calling. The technical difficulty is never end. This should have a name. Is there Murphy or something? Yeah, okay. So I think we can start with a Q&A for our three speakers. So please, when you have a question, start to line up at the microphones here throughout the room. Four on the left side and four on the right side. On the balcony we have also one. And I start with the single... signal angel, not single angel, sorry. Okay, just hold it, maybe we have a connection. Please signal angel, give me the question. Okay, thank you. We had some discussion in IRC about your fundraising platform because the pricing, they keep quite a big share of 20%. Why is choosing this platform? Could you answer the question? The end of the question was... Yes. The fundraiser or go find me? There's really not much option for us. The one thing I have to stress is the only groups taking any money from donations are the fundraising, I guess the platform or PayPal, and the banks. But as for those who are actually administering this, and the three lawyers who formed an NGO in Montreal, and myself in Hong Kong, 100% of the money we receive is distributed to the clients. We don't take one penny for legal fees, we don't take one penny for administrative fees, and actually ourselves we pay for the banking fees. So, sorry. Well, that's what we've... I think what you can see here that not everyone involved in human rights work is as tech-savvy as everyone here. So, if you want to talk to us later about that, I guess all that will be very welcome. Just a second. As a previous chemical engineer, I'm a little bit tech-savvy. Sorry. That's okay. And the second thing is the three lawyers in Montreal have set up a Bitcoin account. So, you can donate to Fundraiser, go on to this site, and there's information on how to donate through Bitcoin. I apologize for not raising that. What we did is Mr. Snowden tweeted the Fundraiser account on Christmas Eve, and it was at that time people were commenting saying, hey, can we do Bitcoin? So, we did that immediately. So, I hope that answers the question. So, I think we switch over to welcome our new guest now on the stage. You can look directly at her at the camera, we have her camera set up, and when you look at that direction, you look at her, actually. So, virtually. Can you hear me? Yes. Hi, good evening. So, Vanessa, you have a lot of fans in Hamburg. Thank you. Maybe if you would just describe, say, your first five minutes when you met Edward Snowden, how was that? I think everybody would like to hear that from you now. When the first time I met Mr. Snowden, I don't know who is Mr. Snowden. He's very upset, and at the time he needed help to stay in my home. And my lawyer, Mr. Tebow, and the young man knocked on my door, so I didn't think twice to let him in my house. And I'm very happy, and I help Edward Snowden. And I'm very thankful to my lawyer, Mr. Tebow, because he has 60 clients, asylum seekers, and he trusted me to let Mr. Snowden stay in my house. And I'm very also thankful for Edward Snowden, because he appreciated what I did for him. Thank you. Okay. Thank you. Now your turn. Who would like to ask a question to Snowden's guardian angel in Hong Kong? Yeah, we have the great opportunity to take questions from the audience or from the signal angel. So when you have any questions, please step up to the microphone. Or do we have something from the signal angel? Hello. Hi. The signal angel didn't want to ask a question. Maybe then when there is not yet a question or not the courage to ask one, I would like to ask you a question. How is your situation now when you look back on meeting Edward Snowden and what your experience and how do you feel now? How has your situation changed maybe by that to get involved with this thing that hit you out of nowhere? Oh. The situation. Okay. My situation right now is I have a difficult in the Hong Kong government about my assistance in ISS Hong Kong. And ISS already stopped my assistance. So I don't have any assistance right now. I only have from donations. And in my case, in a touch reclaim, the Hong Kong government, they opened my case just last month. And now it's activated. And I know they want to reject my case. And I'm very worried. They want me to send back to Philippines. And it's not really good for me. I'm safe to go back to Philippines. So I'm very disappointed. And the Hong Kong government is very cruel about my situation. They're not understanding about me and my family. So I'm very worried. Thank you. Thank you. So I think we have a question from microphone number seven. Please go ahead. Hello. I was wondering when did it dawn on you what you had gotten involved in? And when did you realize the gravity of the situation? Like I'm imagining that it would be difficult in the beginning. But now with all the aftermath, it's been a very big thing. So I'm okay. Like when at what point did you realize how big this was? I guess I realized this is a very big point because now the Hong Kong government is, they want, especially to my lawyers, that in one, one, one, one of, one of his, one of, I mean, one of his, he had one time that immigration one to deal his case for one time for 30 cases. In one time. So my case and two other families is including. I think it's very difficult to my lawyer and especially with me that because I very appreciate that they send me to Philippines. And now I also don't have any assistance from my SS, the Hong Kong government. So it's very hard for me to, it's very unfair to me that the Hong Kong government is can't rely on my donations. So it's very, very difficult for me right now. Maybe I can, I can help a little bit with that Vanessa. What, what the, what the question was, and of course I has the same thing. The night when she met Edward Snowden, she did not know who Edward Snowden was. It was just a white man in front of her door. So she let him in and let him sleep in her bed. There's only one bed in the, in the apartment. She slept on the floor. And the next morning, Edward Snowden asked her to please bring a newspaper. And well, I think Vanessa, when you bought the newspaper, maybe, maybe I think that's what the audience wanted to know. That's the minute you found out you bought a newspaper and you see, just, just tell that, that morning, your experience when, when you were looking for the newspaper and what you experienced then. Vanessa. Yes. Okay. When was the first time you realized how big the Snowden case was? What time did you know? Okay. I just find out when the next morning I was starting to buy newspaper. This is newspaper. This is in June 2013, correct? Yes. In June 2013. And what, what happened? In June 2013, when Edward Snowden stayed at my house, he told the next morning he told me that he need the English newspaper. So I bought the English newspaper with him and I'm really shocked that the guy who stayed in my home is the most wanted man in the world. And he, because he's in the, in the front page of the newspaper. So I'm really shocked that the guy is in my house. So, so what did you do after that? What did you think after that? I think that I need, I need to be careful. And my lawyers told me that don't tell to anyone that that's the first rule and don't let anyone come to my house. So I need to be careful that because I understand and stay in my house. So I know that anybody that say my house and I'm not telling anybody that Edward Snowden in my house. Did you still want to help Mr. Snowden at that time? I, yes, I'm still going to help Edward Snowden because he know have place to stay and he needs my help. And I think I can do that for him. I think we have another question from the audience. Number five back there. Go ahead. Hello. Thank you for everything you've done to Edward Snowden. It has been mentioned that you have celebrated his 30th birthday together with your family and something was mentioned about a birthday cake. What happened there? Oh, yeah. I received a call and I get the cakes and I don't know what that time is, birthday. And he asked, why I have a cake and he said that Edward Snowden's birthday. So I bring the cakes at my house and I tell Edward Snowden, oh, today is your birthday. And he said, yes. So me and my daughter, we sing a song for him. And we blow the candles. And I told him, oh, sorry, today is his birthday, but we can't take the photos. Yeah. I think. We have another question from the signal. Thank you. Vanessa, a question to you. Probably you are afraid for your own family. After all, would you do it again? Yes. I'm just going to quickly break the rules that are only questions. And there are only questions. I want to thank you not only for giving a home to Mr. Snowden, which we all did, but also for being here tonight and giving a face to a lot of stories, I guess, that we don't see usually, because we did a lot of the first part. And this is great because Edward Snowden is, of course, important and did great stuff. But also this other part and for being here tonight is great for us and for me at least. Thanks. I can see your point, but please questions number four now. Thank you. Apart from expressing my utmost respect and gratitude, I have a question. De Vanessa and to all the other hosts as well. Do I understand correctly that the government of Hong Kong will not allow you to travel anywhere else, but back to your home country. Is there anything that can be done by governments of other countries, individuals of other countries to take you to another place because it does feel like you're being trapped in Hong Kong and there is no good way out. Either in Hong Kong or in your home countries. Definitely. What's needed is public support and the public being vocal, setting up Facebook social media groups, communicating with your local governments. There's no reason why, for example, the Canadian government, the German government could not make the political decision. Seven people, seven people out of millions of asylum seekers in the world and to offer them asylum. That's all that's needed because they are stuck in limbo in Hong Kong with effectively a zero chance. What I'll stress is the Sri Lankans, if they're returned to Sri Lanka, they will all be arrested at the airport under the Prevention of Terrorism Act. They'll be arbitrarily detained and it is certain that some of them will be tortured. Ajit the soldier faces a death penalty for Vanessa, the new president of the Philippines, Duterte has executed extrajudicially 6,000 people the last couple months and he's proposed to set up concentration camps to exterminate 3 million drug addicts in the Philippines. These families have been left behind. I'm not going to let that happen. So through your being aware of this, through your capabilities to communicate through social networks, your communities, this is really, if we could create a groundswell, this could put pressure on governments to possibly have them step forward to help these families. Welcome to the fundraiser page. The fundraiser page, it's written in English and French and it's set out there very clearly what can be done and what's being done in Canada. And I have asked my clients where their second choice would be to seek asylum and all of them have talked about Germany. So whatever can be done to help the fundraiser page and there's an associated Facebook page with that, whatever can be done would be most appreciated. And again, any funds that can be given to help the families would obviously ensure that they're not left destitute in Hong Kong. Thank you. We are very short on time but I think I have the authority to stretch that a little and I wanted to take, I'm sorry, I wanted to, he's standing there quite a lot of long time. So from microphone one, please. Yeah, I basically wanted to hear from Vanessa because she helped him what kind of help would you appreciate, what kind of help can the world or we do to you or give you? If the people want to help us, I hope and I wish that you open your heart for the donate some money for our fundraiser and GoFundMe page. It's a really, really big help for us and we are hoping to send two families, three families to other countries to start our new life and have a good future for our children. Thank you. I'm very sorry I'm getting signs to cut my, that they want to cut and do something to me. So thanks for your talks and thank you Vanessa for being here and making it. It is a great honor for me and a big round of applause for Vanessa, Lena Rober, Zymke Iversen and Robert Thibault. Maybe you can show Vanessa with the camera. Thank you.
 The next talk is the untold story of Edward Snowden's escape from Hong Kong and how you  can help the refugees who saved his life.  We have three speakers today. Lena Rohrbach is an Amnesty International Germany's expert  on human rights and the digital age and moral philosophy about training.  Then we have Zunke Iversen, head of the investigative research unit at Handelsblatt.  His specialty is uncovering corruption, fraud and gross mismanagement.  And finally, Robert Thibault, he is a human rights lawyer in Hong Kong and incidentally  one of Edward Snowden's lawyers and is still in contact with him today.  And this is your stage and please give a warm round of applause to all three of those.  Thank you. Hi everyone. Can you hear me? Very good. As if just been told, my name is Lena  and I work for Amnesty International in Germany where I cover human rights in the digital  age. We are still figuring out what exactly that means.  But it includes issues of freedom of speech and information online and the human right  to privacy which is being undermined by mass and targeted surveillance and lots of other  human rights which are threatened or strengthened by the increasing use of ICT. Usually it's  both at the same time.  At Amnesty we are also part of the campaign to pardon Snowden which I'm going to tell  you about today. Tonight you're first going to hear about Snowden and his current situation  in Russia and then about his escape from Hong Kong and how to help the refugees who saved  him. And I'm really happy to see many people here interested in this talk because I think  there's a fascinating story to be told later. Unfortunately not my part of the talk but  there's. And I believe it is an important story to tell especially in these times with  the ongoing debate on refugees and asylum. Refugees are often portrayed as an anonymous  mass more the object of political decisions than actors of change which themselves of  course they also are. But before we come to that, let's start with the Snowden situation  first.  As you all know Snowden shared US intelligence documents with journalists in summer 2016  in Hong Kong which revealed the shocking extent of global mass surveillance. Snowden  claimed that their sole motive for this was and I quote his own words to inform the public  as to that which is done in their name and that which is done against them. But the US  government branded him a traitor who as they say has significantly harmed US national security  interests.  So here's his current situation. After fleeing Hong Kong he was stuck in transit at the Moscow  airport until he was granted a temporary right to remain in Russia. US authorities revoked  his passport which interferes with his ability to travel to other countries and to apply  for asylum in a country of his choosing. There have been several offers among them Venezuela,  Bolivia and Nicaragua. He has been granted residency in Russia until August 2017. After  that it could be extended or not there's no way to know yet. So why doesn't he just return  to the US? At least President Obama seems to think that this is what he should do. Sorry.  Okay, so we don't have phone and electricity. I'm very sorry about that. Can someone help  me with that? I was going to show you a video and I believe that for environmental reasons  you shouldn't give up on your old computers too early. So I'm still using my 80 year old  MacBook and its batteries broke because as you all know they have a problem with the  battery. It's a short intermission. Nice isn't it? Oh yeah. Very good. Thanks for giving  me such a great cue. Why stop now?  So the computer is rebooting now. I'm sorry the computer is rebooting as I said it's a  pretty old one. There's something you can do while I'm waiting for it to reboot besides  singing which is great. There are pens and papers next to the microphones 1 to 6 and  you can just hand them out if you're sitting next to it. Just share them with others around  you. So everyone has a pen and paper. It's just one paper.  I see the spreading is commencing. That is nice. I hope you all are familiar with the  6 to 1 rule. Yes? Yes? No? 6 hours of sleep, 2 meals and 1 shower? Not every day. Every  day. Of all 3 days. Who followed that? Hands in the air please. And everybody who did not  follow that knows why she is not raising their hands. Some people joked about this 6 hours  a day. That is quite a lot. 1 meal and only 2 hours of sleep. I'm exhausted already. There's  lights flashing. I hope now this is going well.  We'll take a few more minutes. You're doing a great job. He's doing a really great job  entertaining you. Thank you very much. And you're doing a great job singing. That is  actually quite nice when such thing is happening. I like your...  So this is a picture I took in South Africa at a memorial for apartheid and the fight  against apartheid. I thought it was a pretty war. South Africa, definitely. That was my  first thought also. Sorry. I don't want to make fun of you.  That's really your doing great job. Sorry guys. No, there's no stress. I think we have...  No, we will keep a tight schedule. I know when I make loose comments about this is the  last talk and then there's a big break. I will be slaughtered afterwards or at least  beaten into a dark corner or something or drowned in chunk or something. Which would  not be that bad actually. Not drowning. But I could show resistance at the first...  Not go there I think. Another thing is I think we have not only those three around here.  So far I can give you hints who's also maybe attending the thing. Some of you maybe have  recognized that there's a little bit more going on at this corner where we have set up all  the technical stuff and that there's some new equipment arrived from another room. But  that is enough hints I think for the most of you. I am hypnotized by this pieces of  wood or is it actually rock? Another joke. So when somebody is able to articulate then  you have way too much processing power in your brain left. So let's do teaser. So everybody  silently in your head think of a number between 1 and 10. Not telling that the other guys  silently. And then multiply it by 9 please. And when you have the result add up the single  digits. So when you have 23 you add 2 plus 3 is 5 like that. Then you divide 5. You got  that? Okay when you... No not divide 5 subtract 5 I'm sorry. Subtract 5 not divide by 5. Subtract  5 I'm sorry. And now you count through the alphabet. When you have a 1 you take a 2b  3c 4d 5e and so on and so forth. And now this letter you have with your result. In your  head silently search for a country starting with that letter which has a border with Germany  and a fruit. Denmark and Dutch... Denmark and dates or Dutch and dragon fruit? No? Maybe  I give away the secret about this. I think Obama wants to talk. Yes? He doesn't want  to talk. He just wants to look a little grumpy and I think that's because he knows that what  he's going to say is not going to resonate well with you. For good reasons. I'm sorry.  We had this copyright 2.0 just about two hours ago in this hall. Maybe you want to give a  summarize of what he's saying. Yeah probably. When we can't pursue him to speak up or on.  Yeah the problem is that I have more videos on here. So I'm terribly sorry about that.  If I had a worst case scenario how this would go it would be my computer without electricity  for a few seconds. And I guess we should just change and I'll do my part later. And you  do your parts first. I'm so sorry about that. Okay.  I'm just going to stand here and wait until you make your decision. Okay. That works. Sorry.  Yes you. God bless you on that now.  What's happening?  Nothing.  Hello?  Well?  Again, pipe.  We have to start now.  You can do it.  It's starting.  You don't see it? I really like to start.  Oh, it's nice.  Okay.  Good evening.  Thank you for coming.  My name is Zernke Iversen, and I'm an  investigative journalist at Handelsblatt,  which is for those who are not from here.  I'm from here. I was born in Hamburg.  I spent most of my life here.  And then I  went out into the world.  Now I'm at Handelsblatt, which is like the German  Financial Times,  the Wall Street Journal.  And since  2012, we  founded at Handelsblatt an investigative research  unit,  which is like the spotlight team  of Germany,  of my paper at least.  And so we cover  mismanagement, fraud,  corruption.  Sometimes when we do well,  people go to jail.  And about a year ago,  I came across  the story of  Edward Snowden  that nobody had  heard before.  And I was surprised because  I thought Edward Snowden,  everything's told.  The whole world media has covered it.  But actually,  there was a big part missing.  And I would like to  tell you today about that part  and about the people  who saved Edward Snowden's life  and who have for three years  remained completely  silent on that.  Many people have taken credit  in the Snowden story.  I will not name any names now.  But those  who actually saved his life  when he came out  and told the world  about the mass surveillance,  they have remained silent  and  they're in big trouble.  So  most of you, I assume,  have seen this movie,  Sit in Four.  It's a very good movie.  And again,  you would assume that  the documentary about Snowden, how Snowden  became who he was  and told the world  about this would also tell  everything there is  to know about him.  But again, there's a scene missing.  There's something very big missing.  Actually, two weeks are missing.  If you remember, there's a scene  right after  the morning after he  gave his interview with the Guardian.  You see him in his hotel room,  room 1014.  And he's kind of walking around.  There's a scene. He's looking in the mirror  thinking of how can I reshape my face  or dye my hair  or cut my hair,  put on sunglasses.  He's holding a mirror at one point  an umbrella.  And then the phone rings  and he's talking to somebody.  And he's saying, okay,  all right,  are you sure?  Because I can grab my stuff  and I can just get out  and you don't hear the other side  of the conversation.  But actually, the man on the other side  of that telephone is here today.  We will very soon hear from him.  And then you see him hanging up  the phone  and he's just standing there.  And you see him saying  and you, I thought  I must have why he's just standing there.  This man is now  sought after. The police is chasing him.  The NSA is chasing him. The CIA.  Everybody is chasing him.  My colleagues,  hundreds of journalists at that time  flooding  into the, to Kowloon in Hong Kong  to search for Edward Snowden.  And he's just standing there  not moving.  And then the next thing you see  is the door opens.  He's getting out of the hotel.  And the next scene in Citizen 4  is actually two weeks later.  Citizen 4 does not show  where Edward Snowden hid  in Hong Kong for two weeks  before he  boarded that aeroplane  to Moscow,  where he still is today.  So, how did he do that?  And I would like  to welcome now to the stage  the man who hid Edward Snowden  for two weeks  when the whole world was  chasing him.  So, obviously the most,  the easiest question for me is  where were you  on that Monday morning,  June 10th, 2013  when Edward Snowden became  the most wanted man alive?  Well, that was on June 10th  and for a period of time  as everyone knows,  there was an unknown  employee of the US government  who was  leaking information about  the US government's spy.  It was about 6 a.m.  and my phone rang  and I was tired on Monday morning.  And  I answered the phone  and on the other side of the phone  was a request for help.  And  it was explained to me,  it was Mr. Snowden  and that  he had  a video of him in an interview with the Guardian  Glenn Greenwald had been televised.  So, at that point, I jumped out of bed,  I took a shower,  put my suit on,  grabbed my briefcase  and got in my car  and drove  to the ferry pier.  I live on an outer island  and that was the fastest way  to get to Hong Kong Island  on a high-speed ferry.  So, you can see Lantau Island  and there's a high-speed ferry that goes across to Hong Kong Island.  So, time was of the essence.  As a lawyer,  the approach I took was  there was a man  who was in immediate distress  and I also understood  that he was the most wanted man on the planet  at that point.  So, it was crucial that I had access to him as soon as possible.  Yeah, so  my job is very easy.  How do you hide the most wanted men alive?  Where do you hide it?  What was going through your mind at that time?  The first thing I needed to do  was gain access to Ed  and  in Hong Kong, I had a  solicitor with me.  So, the first thing we had to do  is because what he had done  in my view  was an act of political opinion  expression.  So, we had to get him to the UNHCR  office in Hong Kong immediately  so he could raise his asylum claim.  And this was the first  line of defense.  If Mr. Snowden was arrested at any time,  it was his refugee claim  that would protect him  from being removed from Hong Kong.  We did that.  We walked him  into the UNHCR.  So, in the film Citizen Four  you see my colleague  Jonathan Mann, a solicitor  and I'm on the phone  with Mr. Snowden basically and I told him,  don't worry  Jonathan Mann knows where to take you  and we're going to the UNHCR.  So, once  Mr. Snowden raised his claim  at the UNHCR  for refugee status determination  then the next step was  we had to  bring Mr. Snowden underground  put him underground  and take him off the radar.  And we were concerned  that the media would find Mr. Snowden  and if the media found Mr. Snowden  then the Hong Kong authorities  would find Mr. Snowden.  There's a US consulate in Hong Kong.  They would know where he was.  So, one of our biggest fears  was the US government or third government  would grab Mr. Snowden  and unlawfully rendition him.  Mr. Snowden would disappear.  The approach I took was  Mr. Snowden was an asylum seeker at that point  a refugee  and I have many, many clients  who are refugees.  So, it just made sense to place him  within the refugee community.  He was part of that community.  The second reason is  Hong Kong asylum seekers are so  marginalized  they're considered  Hong Kong's version of untouchables  that are the most reviled  social group in Hong Kong.  So, to place Mr. Snowden  a man of his intelligence, status  his experience with the US government  and to place him in with  the refugee community in Hong Kong.  Mainly people from South Asia  or Southeast Asia.  This would be the last place  the world would look.  So, immediately after the UNHCR  we took Mr. Snowden  to stay with one of three  refugee families.  The second  crucial reason  aspect of this  is we wanted, I wanted Mr. Snowden  to be placed in the middle of the city.  No one would expect  Mr. Snowden to be hidden and played  in sight.  And the third reason was  we wanted Mr. Snowden  to have access to  wireless communications where he could crack  into any modem within the area.  So, we placed him  with a group of asylum seekers, three families  and through that process  Mr. Snowden was sheltered  and he was taken care of.  So, now we will introduce  the people in Hong Kong  the refugees who  hit Snowden and we have pictures of them.  Who is this?  Now, this is one of my clients.  This is Mr. Ajit Pushpa Kamara  and he's a former soldier  in the Sri Lankan Army.  He's ethnic Sinhalese.  It's about  a former life in Ajit's life.  This is 20 years ago.  Ajit is an extraordinary  individual.  He was  tortured.  There was an attempt to extra  judicially kill him and in the end  he fled Sri Lanka.  And I  chose Ajit  to help Mr. Snowden.  Ajit has  an extraordinary ability to  move around  undetected and to move people around.  He has an extraordinary skill set  and  you don't know  when he's there, you don't know when he's not there.  Just an extraordinary man.  So, he was  the one individual that I trusted  to help us  move Mr. Snowden around.  Yeah, so now you know that while the NSA  and everybody else in the world was looking for him  this was the man who protected him.  Now,  the sad part of this story  is Ajit  has been an asylum seeker for 12 years.  Now,  he fled after being  tortured in Sri Lanka, tortured by the  military. He fled  and  his asylum is still in progress,  so to speak.  And I think we have another picture.  And this is where  Ajit lives at this time.  It's about  50 square feet. There's no windows.  And  one thing  I'd like to stress  is that in Hong Kong  asylum seekers  are not allowed to work.  The government does not  meet their basic needs  and if they're caught working  they face two years prison.  So, Mr. Ajit's  been in Hong Kong  and the Hong Kong government has left him destitute.  And  the way  they've treated this man, as with the other two families  amounts to a violation  of Article 7 of the International Covenant  on Civil and Political Rights.  Treating him in an inhumane  and degrading manner.  Nevertheless, Ajit has  survived in Hong Kong.  And the one  the other aspect, another reason why  I reached out  to my asylum seeker clients  is the asylum seekers  all fled their home countries  running for their lives.  And when they met Mr. Snowden  they saw Mr. Snowden  as one of their own.  When they fled  they had to rely and trust  and put their hands into other people's lives  who helped them escape their home countries.  The asylum seekers have  the highest propensity to protect others.  And that was  the foundation upon which  I knew I could trust my clients.  And when asked  they stepped forward and they said  yes, we recognize him, we want to help him.  It's an amazing  experience. I met Ajit  six months ago  and when I asked him  why did you help Edward Snowden?  I mean you had  enough problems on your own  and this was a man who was  sought after by the most powerful  nation and military  and intelligence service on earth.  And the only thing he said  was, of course I helped  him.  He was a refugee,  I was a refugee.  Of course I helped him.  And  this is the next  set of  hosts for Mr. Snowden.  Now, this is  the second family.  The gentleman here is  Supoon  Kelapata.  And that's his  partner, Nadika.  Supoon is Sri Lankan,  Sinhalese, and he fled Sri Lanka  based on political persecution.  And his  partner, Nadika, she fled Sri Lanka  based on gender persecution.  And  very typical in a country like Sri Lanka  gender persecution  involves, unfortunately,  rape and  human trafficking  and at times servitude and slavery.  So these two extraordinary  individuals fled to Hong Kong.  Supoon, more than 10 years ago,  Nadika, more than 7 years ago.  And both of their children  were born in Hong Kong.  And one thing I would stress is  the two children are stateless.  They have no nationality.  And the Hong Kong government  by law refuses  to give them  any status in Hong Kong.  This is  the place  where they live.  And  right now  the Hong Kong government  has not provided the support  for the young girl,  Sepumdi,  and she's not receiving an education in  Hong Kong.  But I'll  move on to another  subject later on what  we've been doing as lawyers  to help these families  to make sure they're not destitute at this time.  Yes, we have another picture  when  this is where they live.  You see?  So they live in literally one of the poorest  areas of Hong Kong. And they live in a flat  that's about 150 square feet.  The other thing I would like to mention  is that the screening system for  asylum seekers in Hong Kong  is so grossly unfair  that the acceptance rate  since 1992  in Hong Kong for asylum seekers  is 0.36%.  So effectively all asylum seekers  who seek refuge in Hong Kong  are rejected.  And the three families I'm representing,  they're looking at  their cases being rejected  because the system is just so grossly unfair.  Yeah, so  that's them.  And this is the fourth  refugee who sheltered  Edward Snowden. And  incidentally baked him a birthday cake  for his 30th birthday  and her daughter, which you will see  in a moment, sang a happy  birthday song to Edward Snowden.  This is Vanessa.  She's from the Philippines.  She was a victim of gender persecution  and she fled to Hong Kong.  And she's the fourth adult  or the third family  that provided shelter to Mr. Snowden.  Yeah, that's her daughter.  This is her daughter,  Kiana.  And  the one thing I would mention is that  since their identities  were revealed to the public,  the Hong Kong government  has targeted Vanessa  and her child  and has asked her questions  about Mr. Snowden.  And when she refused  to answer those questions,  the government cut  off all assistance to her.  So she gets no  assistance for food  or rent  or education for her daughter.  They cut her off completely  simply because she refused to answer questions  about Mr. Snowden.  Yes.  That's you and her.  That's me.  So  I visited  these families in  summer.  And shortly before  the movie of Oliver Stone came out,  we published  the full story  in my paper at  Hunlis Blood.  And  well,  good and bad things happened.  There was a lot of, there was an  outpouring  of helpfulness.  I got a lot of calls and emails from  around the world of people who wanted to  donate to these families.  And  let me see.  There's a movie.  I'm not going to talk about that  because journalists don't usually  get calls from the nations.  So we set up  that is  also in summer.  This was in July this year.  I traveled to see Mr. Snowden  in Moscow  shortly before  the film Snowden came out.  But it was at that time  I had discussed with Mr. Snowden  the situation of the  three families because they were  portrayed in the Snowden film.  And the decision was taken  and the clients were advised to  protect them.  It would be better to  introduce them to the public  before the film came out.  So that the public  would have a very clear idea and clear understanding  of who they are,  what they did for Mr. Snowden.  Basically to make sure  the public understood  and understood them as human beings.  And Mr. Snowden was in full  support of that.  Mr. Snowden  is very concerned for my clients  and he's also assisted them financially.  But what we've done  is we've set up  a GoFundMe crowdfunding campaign.  You have the site  that's  the website to collect.  Even Snowden  that the thing is, why did we print  this article?  Well first it was a story untold.  For three years these people have remained  quiet  because that's what  they all agreed on, Snowden  and the refugees.  And then the movie comes out  and if you see  the Snowden movie of Oliver Stone  it's  an exciting movie but the people who actually  saved his life  have about 60 seconds  of screen time.  If you see the movie  it's just a brown mass of  helpful people  and then they are gone again.  So I thought it would be really good  to tell the full story  and Snowden himself  actually was surprised  when you told him  he had no idea  that these people who saved his life  were still in the same place  where they were three years ago.  He was asking  why are they still refugees?  And actually that's a good question.  The answers  the Hong Kong government will not  let them leave, they will not  let them stay, they will not let them work.  They are just  staying in this miserable  presence.  And so this  website GoFundMe  was set up  because so many people wanted to help  and you can see somewhere  on this site there is like  on this website seven or  eight hundred people have donated  and  well, that's a good thing  that happened. The bad thing was  that the Hong Kong government actually cut  when they found out about these donations  they cut off the service,  the money  and the families that they received  and so this is actually  almost the only thing they have  donations  and  well now there is new hope, there is a  second website  and it's like  this is a fundraiser page  maybe you  want to talk about the lawyers who  are trying to get these people to a  better place.  Well, with the GoFundMe page  we have been able to take those  financial resources  and distribute them to the three families in Hong Kong  so that their basic needs are met  and this has provided them with a lot of  emotional security  and certainty in their lives at this time.  Three lawyers  I am from Montreal, Quebec  originally and  I have been working with three lawyers that I know  and the three lawyers in Montreal  have set up a fundraiser campaign  and they are also making  efforts  to communicate with the Canadian government  to advocate  for Canada to take in the three families  these are seven people  and it's not a big stretch  for the Canadian government to take them in.  The Canadian GoFundMe, the fundraiser  site  has recently raised  more money  and again this is the second channel  which is Canadian based and Canadian  focused  where we are trying to raise more funds for the families  so we can sustain them in Hong Kong  but we do have a view  that the Canadian government  should take steps  to bring them into Canada  not to set a precedent  but on the basis that  these seven extraordinary people  protected a whistleblower  so  some of the difficulties we are facing  are that  a lot of people don't want to donate  for fear  that the US government  would see that they have made donations to these three families  these three families are innocent  they have done nothing wrong  when they helped Mr Snowden  they did it in good faith and they never broke any laws  one thing I want to stress is when Mr Snowden was in Hong Kong  at no time was he  a fugitive under Hong Kong law  the US government  never sent through  a legally effective request for his arrest  and extradition  so these people need  they need support  they need moral support, they need public support  and they need some financial support for help  and I would  ask everybody here  and I would ask that everybody here ask  communicate  to whoever you know  to have the public become aware  of who these people are  and no matter how small the donation  every euro, every dollar counts  yes  thank you  so if everybody in here  not donate immediately  but I know you all  have your phones in your pockets  if you Twitter and Facebook  and all that  that would be really nice and we are going to try now  to connect  to Skype with one of the refugees  she is still at home awake  now it is  well past midnight  but we are going to try  to Skype her in  and you also may ask some questions  hopefully this will work  this will be my client  Vanessa from the Philippines  so  what is your name?  I am  I am  I am  I am  I am  I am  I am  I am  I am  I am  I am  I am  I am  that is not her  we do not know who that is  let me try again  while we are waiting  this all took a little longer  than expected  and due to my computer problems  I could either do my part of the talk and I would have told you about Snowden's current situation,  how to help him about legal cruelties like the Espionage Act, World War I, he's being charged under and so on.  I hope it would have been interesting, but I thought that with though little time remaining,  it would be more important to give the people who helped him and her refugees in Hong Kong a voice  than Amnesty International and me.  So I'm going to skip that part so you can have an Q&A with her.  Thank you anyway, sorry about that.  APPLAUSE  I think we can have a question in between, maybe if there's a... I don't know how that works.  Is there somebody going around with a microphone or...?  Should we start with a Q&A?  Okay, so we try again with the calling.  The technical difficulty is never end.  This should have a name.  Is there Murphy or something? Yeah, okay.  So I think we can start with a Q&A for our three speakers.  So please, when you have a question, start to line up at the microphones here throughout the room.  Four on the left side and four on the right side.  On the balcony we have also one.  And I start with the single... signal angel, not single angel, sorry.  Okay, just hold it, maybe we have a connection.  Please signal angel, give me the question.  Okay, thank you. We had some discussion in IRC about your fundraising platform  because the pricing, they keep quite a big share of 20%.  Why is choosing this platform?  Could you answer the question?  The end of the question was...  Yes.  The fundraiser or go find me?  There's really not much option for us.  The one thing I have to stress is the only groups taking any money from donations are the fundraising,  I guess the platform or PayPal, and the banks.  But as for those who are actually administering this, and the three lawyers who formed an NGO in Montreal,  and myself in Hong Kong, 100% of the money we receive is distributed to the clients.  We don't take one penny for legal fees, we don't take one penny for administrative fees,  and actually ourselves we pay for the banking fees.  So, sorry.  Well, that's what we've...  I think what you can see here that not everyone involved in human rights work is as tech-savvy as everyone here.  So, if you want to talk to us later about that, I guess all that will be very welcome.  Just a second.  As a previous chemical engineer, I'm a little bit tech-savvy.  Sorry.  That's okay.  And the second thing is the three lawyers in Montreal have set up a Bitcoin account.  So, you can donate to Fundraiser, go on to this site,  and there's information on how to donate through Bitcoin.  I apologize for not raising that.  What we did is Mr. Snowden tweeted the Fundraiser account on Christmas Eve,  and it was at that time people were commenting saying,  hey, can we do Bitcoin?  So, we did that immediately.  So, I hope that answers the question.  So, I think we switch over to welcome our new guest now on the stage.  You can look directly at her at the camera,  we have her camera set up,  and when you look at that direction, you look at her, actually.  So, virtually.  Can you hear me?  Yes.  Hi, good evening.  So, Vanessa, you have a lot of fans in Hamburg.  Thank you.  Maybe if you would just describe, say, your first five minutes  when you met Edward Snowden, how was that?  I think everybody would like to hear that from you now.  When the first time I met Mr. Snowden,  I don't know who is Mr. Snowden.  He's very upset, and at the time he needed help to stay in my home.  And my lawyer, Mr. Tebow, and the young man knocked on my door,  so I didn't think twice to let him in my house.  And I'm very happy, and I help Edward Snowden.  And I'm very thankful to my lawyer, Mr. Tebow,  because he has 60 clients, asylum seekers,  and he trusted me to let Mr. Snowden stay in my house.  And I'm very also thankful for Edward Snowden,  because he appreciated what I did for him.  Thank you.  Okay.  Thank you.  Now your turn.  Who would like to ask a question to Snowden's guardian angel in Hong Kong?  Yeah, we have the great opportunity to take questions from the audience  or from the signal angel.  So when you have any questions, please step up to the microphone.  Or do we have something from the signal angel?  Hello.  Hi.  The signal angel didn't want to ask a question.  Maybe then when there is not yet a question or not the courage to ask one,  I would like to ask you a question.  How is your situation now when you look back on meeting Edward Snowden  and what your experience and how do you feel now?  How has your situation changed maybe by that to get involved with this thing  that hit you out of nowhere?  Oh.  The situation.  Okay.  My situation right now is I have a difficult in the Hong Kong government  about my assistance in ISS Hong Kong.  And ISS already stopped my assistance.  So I don't have any assistance right now.  I only have from donations.  And in my case, in a touch reclaim, the Hong Kong government,  they opened my case just last month.  And now it's activated.  And I know they want to reject my case.  And I'm very worried.  They want me to send back to Philippines.  And it's not really good for me.  I'm safe to go back to Philippines.  So I'm very disappointed.  And the Hong Kong government is very cruel about my situation.  They're not understanding about me and my family.  So I'm very worried.  Thank you.  Thank you.  So I think we have a question from microphone number seven.  Please go ahead.  Hello.  I was wondering when did it dawn on you what you had gotten involved in?  And when did you realize the gravity of the situation?  Like I'm imagining that it would be difficult in the beginning.  But now with all the aftermath, it's been a very big thing.  So I'm okay.  Like when at what point did you realize how big this was?  I guess I realized this is a very big point because now the Hong Kong government is,  they want, especially to my lawyers, that in one, one, one, one of, one of his, one of,  I mean, one of his, he had one time that immigration one to deal his case for one time for 30 cases.  In one time.  So my case and two other families is including.  I think it's very difficult to my lawyer and especially with me that because I very appreciate that they send me to Philippines.  And now I also don't have any assistance from my SS, the Hong Kong government.  So it's very hard for me to, it's very unfair to me that the Hong Kong government is can't rely on my donations.  So it's very, very difficult for me right now.  Maybe I can, I can help a little bit with that Vanessa.  What, what the, what the question was, and of course I has the same thing.  The night when she met Edward Snowden, she did not know who Edward Snowden was.  It was just a white man in front of her door.  So she let him in and let him sleep in her bed.  There's only one bed in the, in the apartment.  She slept on the floor.  And the next morning, Edward Snowden asked her to please bring a newspaper.  And well, I think Vanessa, when you bought the newspaper, maybe, maybe I think that's what the audience wanted to know.  That's the minute you found out you bought a newspaper and you see, just, just tell that, that morning, your experience when, when you were looking for the newspaper and what you experienced then.  Vanessa.  Yes.  Okay.  When was the first time you realized how big the Snowden case was?  What time did you know?  Okay.  I just find out when the next morning I was starting to buy newspaper.  This is newspaper.  This is in June 2013, correct?  Yes.  In June 2013.  And what, what happened?  In June 2013, when Edward Snowden stayed at my house, he told the next morning he told me that he need the English newspaper.  So I bought the English newspaper with him and I'm really shocked that the guy who stayed in my home is the most wanted man in the world.  And he, because he's in the, in the front page of the newspaper.  So I'm really shocked that the guy is in my house.  So, so what did you do after that?  What did you think after that?  I think that I need, I need to be careful.  And my lawyers told me that don't tell to anyone that that's the first rule and don't let anyone come to my house.  So I need to be careful that because I understand and stay in my house.  So I know that anybody that say my house and I'm not telling anybody that Edward Snowden in my house.  Did you still want to help Mr. Snowden at that time?  I, yes, I'm still going to help Edward Snowden because he know have place to stay and he needs my help.  And I think I can do that for him.  I think we have another question from the audience. Number five back there. Go ahead.  Hello. Thank you for everything you've done to Edward Snowden.  It has been mentioned that you have celebrated his 30th birthday together with your family and something was mentioned about a birthday cake.  What happened there?  Oh, yeah. I received a call and I get the cakes and I don't know what that time is, birthday.  And he asked, why I have a cake and he said that Edward Snowden's birthday.  So I bring the cakes at my house and I tell Edward Snowden, oh, today is your birthday.  And he said, yes.  So me and my daughter, we sing a song for him.  And we blow the candles.  And I told him, oh, sorry, today is his birthday, but we can't take the photos.  Yeah.  I think.  We have another question from the signal.  Thank you.  Vanessa, a question to you.  Probably you are afraid for your own family.  After all, would you do it again?  Yes.  I'm just going to quickly break the rules that are only questions.  And there are only questions.  I want to thank you not only for giving a home to Mr. Snowden, which we all did, but also for being here tonight and giving a face to a lot of stories, I guess, that we don't see usually, because we did a lot of the first part.  And this is great because Edward Snowden is, of course, important and did great stuff.  But also this other part and for being here tonight is great for us and for me at least.  Thanks.  I can see your point, but please questions number four now.  Thank you.  Apart from expressing my utmost respect and gratitude, I have a question.  De Vanessa and to all the other hosts as well.  Do I understand correctly that the government of Hong Kong will not allow you to travel anywhere else, but back to your home country.  Is there anything that can be done by governments of other countries, individuals of other countries to take you to another place because it does feel like you're being trapped in Hong Kong and there is no good way out.  Either in Hong Kong or in your home countries.  Definitely.  What's needed is public support and the public being vocal, setting up Facebook social media groups, communicating with your local governments.  There's no reason why, for example, the Canadian government, the German government could not make the political decision.  Seven people, seven people out of millions of asylum seekers in the world and to offer them asylum.  That's all that's needed because they are stuck in limbo in Hong Kong with effectively a zero chance.  What I'll stress is the Sri Lankans, if they're returned to Sri Lanka, they will all be arrested at the airport under the Prevention of Terrorism Act.  They'll be arbitrarily detained and it is certain that some of them will be tortured.  Ajit the soldier faces a death penalty for Vanessa, the new president of the Philippines, Duterte has executed extrajudicially 6,000 people the last couple months and he's proposed to set up concentration camps to exterminate 3 million drug addicts in the Philippines.  These families have been left behind.  I'm not going to let that happen.  So through your being aware of this, through your capabilities to communicate through social networks, your communities, this is really, if we could create a groundswell, this could put pressure on governments to possibly have them step forward to help these families.  Welcome to the fundraiser page.  The fundraiser page, it's written in English and French and it's set out there very clearly what can be done and what's being done in Canada.  And I have asked my clients where their second choice would be to seek asylum and all of them have talked about Germany.  So whatever can be done to help the fundraiser page and there's an associated Facebook page with that, whatever can be done would be most appreciated.  And again, any funds that can be given to help the families would obviously ensure that they're not left destitute in Hong Kong.  Thank you.  We are very short on time but I think I have the authority to stretch that a little and I wanted to take, I'm sorry, I wanted to, he's standing there quite a lot of long time.  So from microphone one, please.  Yeah, I basically wanted to hear from Vanessa because she helped him what kind of help would you appreciate, what kind of help can the world or we do to you or give you?  If the people want to help us, I hope and I wish that you open your heart for the donate some money for our fundraiser and GoFundMe page.  It's a really, really big help for us and we are hoping to send two families, three families to other countries to start our new life and have a good future for our children.  Thank you.  I'm very sorry I'm getting signs to cut my, that they want to cut and do something to me.  So thanks for your talks and thank you Vanessa for being here and making it.  It is a great honor for me and a big round of applause for Vanessa, Lena Rober, Zymke Iversen and Robert Thibault.  Maybe you can show Vanessa with the camera.  Thank you.
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