From Dissent to Disillusionment?
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Nachawati, Leila
Ulrich, Claire
Amr, Tarek
Abbany, Zulfikar
Disillusionment is spreading now that more than a year has passed since the start of the uprising in Egypt. A military council still rules the country, and conservative forces threaten to crush the fragile bloom of democracy. Tunisian activists face similar problems as Salafist groups use violence in an effort to halt reforms. Secular and left-leaning organizations are trying to resist the Salafists: "Wake up, Tunisia, before it's too late" reads an appeal on one of their websites. The outcome of developments in Syria, with ongoing bloody conflicts, is fully open. The French scholar and Islam expert Jean-Pierre Filiu offered a sober analysis of the revolution: "Nothing is over yet." Filiu views the Arab populations who organized with the help of social media platforms as playing a decisive role in the region's revolutionary dynamic. One year after the celebrated Facebook-Revolutions questions remain: What role did internet activists play in the post-revolution and government building phase? How are activists from different countries networked and supporting each other? How have the media landscapes changed and what freedoms are still being fought for? This panel is presented in cooperation with Deutsche Welle.
 And a warm welcome to this panel discussion co-sponsored by Deutsche Welle. I'm your host, Rob Mudge. Not Salifika Albani. If you saw the name earlier, my colleague was sick during the week, so I've jumped in at short notice. I'll try and make it as painless as possible for you. Our panel discussion will focus on the title from Descent to Disillusion, when we're going to look at three countries, Egypt, Tunisia and Syria, looking at the status of social media, what role they've played throughout the year, and where we are now, what the status quo is. And I'd like to introduce you to our panel for today's discussion. On my left, Claire Oerik, who is the editor of the French version of Global Voices Online, a member of the Bob Jury, and you've written extensively about Tunisia. A warm welcome to you. A warm welcome to Claire Oerik. Thank you. Then on my right, we have Leila Nachoati, a Spanish-Syrian blogger. I hope I got that right. And a human rights activist, assistant professor of communications at Carlos III University in Madrid. Just a junk professor. I learned the new word, the translation from Spanish is not literate. That's new to me. And my far right, Tarek Amar, an Egyptian blogger and activist, also works with Global Voices and also a member of the Bob's Jury. Warm welcome to all of you. Thank you for coming. And essentially, I'd like to just explain, break it down into two parts of our debate today. First, I'd like to look at getting appraisal from each individual country about the status quo of the social media, what role they've played, what role they play now. After that, I'd like to encourage questions and comments from the audience. So please feel free to join in. And the second half, I'd like to focus at whether there is a kind of overarching support network between the three countries. Have they been able to help each other in giving ideas and tips on how to proceed? And again, after that, if there are any questions and comments, then please feel free to join in. Before we start our actual debate, we'll show you a short video looking at the current status quo in the three countries we will talk about. People in the Arab world took to the streets calling for freedom of speech. Here in Egypt, they managed to oust the government. Now they have to readjust to life in a completely new world. It's sometimes hard to find one's own role. Am I part of the revolution or just reporting on it? You want to show where you stand in your reports, but you aren't actually taking part in the demonstrations, even if it feels like it. New broadcasters have gone on the air, including 25 TV, made by young people who took part in the revolution. They're glad to be involved in something new, even if they still face censorship and excessive bureaucracy. At an international media conference, Deutsche Welles Global Media Forum, journalists met to discuss their successes and failures after the political changes. Lina Ben-Mini from Tunisia was one of those attending. The situation of media in Tunisia didn't change at all. It's the same for the police who is still using violence. Violence and repression are part of everyday life for Mohammed and his friends in Syria. They tried to report to the world on the current situation via the internet from a secret location. 10, 20, 30 seconds, we send the media everything we can so people can see what's happening. It often takes hours to upload the short scenes of violence. The reporters live in constant fear of being discovered by the secret service. The videos show that speaking your mind can still involve huge risks for many people in the Arab world. Leila, from the start with you, we saw that the last images showed us the situation on the ground in Syria. If we hark back to the title of our debate from dissent to disillusionment, would you say that progress there has been that progression there already or how would you assess the current situation on the ground? About the title of our panel from dissent to disillusionment, I think it refers more to the disillusionment part. It's hard to pronounce this word not being non-English speaker disillusionment. I guess it comes more from mainstream media coverage of the revolutions and how there were a lot of expectations from the rest of the world in seeing change from very repressive societies to stable democratic societies. This, unfortunately, does not happen overnight. I would like to ask if any of you has heard of any revolution that does not stumble, that does not find internal division and that leads from repression decades of dictatorship and destroying every civil society infrastructure to very healthy, stable democratic society. So we're going to need some more time to see the outcome of this. I think citizens continue dissenting, continue dissenting even in extremely dangerous places such as Syria, continue risking their lives to share what's happening. That interesting video that Robert shared, they showed some activists in Syria. It's very common now, and this answers the question of how people have been learning from each other. More and more video activists in Syria have learned from activists in Tunisia, activists in Egypt, and they protect their identities more. I don't know if those people on the video, they probably said they wanted to be on camera, those Syrians, but normally it's a requirement for us who are working with Syrians to hide their identity, to blur their faces. So there's more and more efficient use of this identity protection techniques, which have been a result of the government hunting down people who appear on camera. So the visibility helps us denounce crimes in countries such as Syria, but the visibility is a double-edged sword, and this is what activists have learned from the previous activists. So now we see how most YouTube videos are shown from behind, so activists record demonstrations from behind, and there's also new software to blur people's faces. There's a software that witnesses, yeah? Can I just... Sure, sure, sure. Just in there, a key word I think is visibility, and those images are still very fresh in our minds. Can we maybe turn to one country that has maybe been through that phase and gone one step further? Claire, you've followed the events in Tunisia extensively. Where do they stand now? We don't hear or see that much from Tunisia. Yes, indeed, Tunisia has gone out of the news a little, at least in the Western world, but the process continues, and an incredible amount is happening every day since the revolution. As Layla said, very well, you know, it's gritty, it's not glamorous, but Tunisia still remains, and I'd like to say, to stress that I am not Tunisian, but that I've been following Tunisian bloggers for a long, long time now, five years, and I've known a few, and I've been to Tunisia, and I know a lot of them. What strikes me is the fact that it's been an absolutely bloodlet... Well, there was a lot of blood at the beginning, you know, with the uprising. Many people died, but nothing compared to other countries, besides, plus it's a small country, and it strikes me that Tunisia is still the revolution lamp, because they've had, in the space of nine months, from the toppling of Ben Ali to the general election of the constituent election, which is incredible. There are countries that have taken centuries to achieve this, right? A bloodless election, a free and fair election, and since then, the writing of a constitution. So it's not all a bed of roses as Lena said on this short TV item, but it's a process where you can see forces fighting inches by inches for the Constitution, or for their right, or for their religion, both side are fighting. But it's a process where you have people demonstrating about every day, you have people voting laws and debating laws in an open democratic constituent assembly, and you have people who come to visit as tourists. So the economy is still alive. So Tunisia is incredible, and it continues being incredible, and activism plays still a very big role. Maybe we'll talk later about that. You mentioned you said it's almost a bloodless revolution. Almost a bloodless revolution. But if we compare that to what happened in Egypt, which became known as almost as the Facebook revolution, that stood out as a keyword. Tarek, how would you assess the situation today, a year on, from the events there? Well, one point is that calling is a Facebook revolution is, for sure, Internet has helped a lot, but the fact is on one hand, it was not the only agent, but the most important thing that I want to skip this discussion now about the effectiveness of the Internet, but the most important is that after the revolution, it came out that the Internet can be like a spark that starts something, but building a democracy needs other tools. You are having a society with 40% who cannot read and write. You have Internet penetration that's like 20% or 30% in the country. So that's why the process is taking other shapes than it used to be, maybe during the early days or the 18 days of the revolution itself. Do you think that's the reason maybe why the West is possibly growing frustrated now at the lack of speed of reforms that initially everyone launched onto this Facebook revolution, these events that developed so incredibly fast, and now you say, but there's more to it, obviously, and that's something the West is prone to forget, possibly. I'm not sure if the West is disappointed or is, because of this or because there is nothing like eye-catchy, like people demonstrating in the street, this is what the media have to show most of the time. But we are also disappointed a bit because we have bad history with time, with patients and time. The old regime used most of the time whenever things screw up with them, they said that, yeah, we are in a process and things would get better in five years, in 10 years, in 20 years, so they keep on like postponing everything whenever you blame them. No, okay, but it's bad now, but after 20 years, it will be good, so wait for us. So that's why we want everything to happen all of the time. That's why we are a bit disappointed, yeah. But for sure, there's changes and the reform is taking place. For sure, the army is trying to resist this reform, but it has to take its way no matter what. Can we talk about crackdown and repression again? There are developments in Tunisia again, we hear about the Salafists trying to crack down. What is the situation there right now for the media? On the media, well, there are demos because they are debating it for the constitution. And media is in a very big problem, in a reconstructed country. Media is where before, of course, traditional media were totally, you know, took their order from the palace, I suppose, right? And it was indebted media were censored. Now, Tunisia is arriving at this very delicate point. What will be written in the long for the media, the future media? But you can see very encouraging sign. For instance, in Nawatu played a big part as being a core blog, right? During the revolution and before the revolution, as long as citizen media experiment in six provincial town, where in the Maison des Jeunes, the youth club, there will be trainings on citizen journalism, how to analyze news, how to be fair, how to look for sources, check sources, and it's an ongoing process. And they're hoping to extend it to more cities and they will first work on the internet, but why not? Maybe one day it will become the new daily from Tunisia. Why not? There are plenty of things happening in Tunisia. Just like to highlight how every day is a new adventure. There was a minister of human rights of the women right in Tunisia and one day declared that homosexuality was a disease. The reaction was immediate. Gay day, Facebook demonstration, which goes to show us that from one side, because you've got Salafisman demonstration in university wanting students to be allowed to wear the full Nicaragua. You've got everything, something is happening every day when you look from afar. And it's certainly very difficult for people inside, right? Doing cyber activism because you can be out of breath after a year, but still they're very resilient. They're continuing for every little details like les blessés de la révolution. People have been hurt during the, received live bullet during the revolution and are still not cured. The government still has not released funds to send them to hospitals or to take them to a hospital, to give them a pension and some are dead, or died. Some went into a hunger strike to protest, to have their rights because nobody looked after them after the revolution from the government. So every day something is happening and you can see that the citizen are still very, not only the professional activists, right? But they're really fighting it all the way. This citizen journalism you describe, I think it's fair to say, in Tunisia, in Egypt has taken a certain progression in Syria. It's very nascent. Can you describe how difficult it is for these activist bloggers to get together? How do they get together? How do they communicate amongst each other? Well, media in Syria are controlled. I mean, they have been controlled for decades. So the Syrian media infrastructure is like the least developed in the area, but the most controlled, the most surveilled. So the government literally owns the media. And they continue fabricating their own reality of events, which is the name of the banner on their main state channel. They call themselves the reality of events. So they give this parallel reality of Syria where nothing is happening, where people are eating ice cream in the street and playing kids, children. And then sometimes they show these terrorist attacks, what they call them, maybe in some spots of the city. But more and more, you can see how these fabrications are clumsy. So they make mistakes. Like they have people act and pose for the camera. And then you see how these people stand up and go, and they were supposed to be wounded. So more and more, these fabrications, pretty much no one believes it. Because we have so many contents online, so many contents that people are sharing, compared to 1982, during the massacre of the people of Hamah, 20,000 people got killed. And there's no videos, no photos, no contents of that massacre. Now we have so many contents that people inside Syria, because journalists are banned from entering the country. So activists are risking their lives to do live streaming of demonstrations, funerals, to share it with the world. And more and more, there's a more professional citizen journalism. They document their contents. So they include like these banners in the beginning of every video saying, Hamah, April 20, 2012. So they give the name of the city to provide context for journalists, for other people who want to collect these stories. But I always keep getting asked, how do we know what's reliable? Well, it's very difficult to know what's reliable. You have to have your own network of contacts that you rely. That's very important. But if someone's to blame for the contents not to be reliable, it's of course the government. You cannot blame the citizens who are risking their lives for that. You have to always question the government who's not letting journalists in. Tariq, we talked earlier about the situation in Egypt. And you said it's not all focused obviously on the Facebook revolution. Indeed, right at the beginning of the uprising, the government managed to crack down and shut down the internet. I think there was a blackout for a few days. But even despite of that, the protests continued. So obviously, there is more to it than just the aspect of social media. It does depend on the local characteristics of each respective country we're talking about. Yeah. I might say that now we are doing things totally the opposite way. We are learning the tools or the methodologies or stuff that we learn from social media and we're applying them on the ground. There is this campaign I want to talk about. It's by some Egyptians. It's called the Askar Kazoon, which literally means the militia are lawyers. What they are doing is they are setting data shows in the squares and in the streets and displaying videos about the army brutality and how they are cracking down demos after the revolution. Because there were like those statistics that show that 80% of the Egyptian people are trusting the militia even after the revolution itself. And even with like 12,000 people have been detained after military trials, after the fall of Mubarak himself. And there are like thousands of people who have been killed by the army. So they felt that they have to show people in the streets who don't have internet access to show them this. And what they are literally doing is they are copying what's being YouTube by having it in the street and people gather there and they do comment on this video if I have to say commenting and they might share it as well because those videos are available online so you can copy this video and share it in another square and displaying it. So at the end of the day you are copying what you have learned from social media somehow to do it in the physical world. This is another initiative. It's called Tweet Chara. It's like Twitter in the street. People go there and they announce like the subject of this conversation which is the hashtag in this case and they try to see people going there randomly and stop them and start asking them what are your opinion about this, what's your opinion about there. And there are also again there are retweets because those people who listen to this conversation they go there in their homes and everywhere else and try to transfer the message. So in a way or another we have social media has helped maybe not in a technological way it helped and also the concept that came out from this in this world of today of sharing of of shareism if like Isaac Mao tried to like to call it. This concept are getting inside or outside the internet to other places. Claire I believe you showed me an email earlier from a friend of yours who rather vividly describes the the situation what's what the Tunisian people is going through. Yes it's Afef. Afef is writing for Global Voices and maybe other citizen media from Tunis and she sent me a mail when and because really I think a Tunisian voice should some from Tunisia you know what has happened during this year what is our stand on this revolution or disillusion right this is what she has to say please excuse me in my glasses and everything I think it's short. I'd like to tell that like any other democratic transition experience in other countries the Tunisian experience has had ups and downs it's still early to make judgment now but we but but we will only able to judge it in no less than three years. I'm proud of what my country has achieved so far free and fair election peaceful transition of power a culture of protest art and the civil society that are all flourishing and I do believe that more than any other country in the region we got what it takes in basic this experience meaning revolution a success a small homogeneous and educated population around 10 millions illiteracy is not high women are involved and women's role is very is very important in democracy so I think it sums it up even after a year of upheaval and whatever was our political choice you know Tunisia is still a lamp of cyber activism and we hope that she hopes that you know other country will support continue looking at it supporting it. Can I at this point maybe open up the discussion to the floor are there any questions or comments I can hardly see you but sorry about that yeah there's a question down here at the front I would like to ask what you think about the economic prospects for those countries because I think that's where a lot of the disillusionment comes from and if people have to judge whether it was actually worth the revolution or not they will certainly use indicators such as the unemployment rate or inflation rate. Are you addressing that to a specific panelist or country or just a general who would like to? Layla. I'm not an expert on economic issues but it's definitely a factor is definitely an issue social injustice and the very unequal distribution of resources these governments and I know the Syrian very well but I think it applies to the rest of the of the area they rule these countries as if the countries were their own property. So they work as a mafia that controls the resources so if you want to open a stand or any small store in any part of Syria to mention the example I know best you have to pay a bribe to the government in order to travel to the airport to be able to travel to another country you have to pay to get your visa so everything runs under this system of corruption and paying to get your way so that's what like you have a traffic fine for instance and you never pay the traffic fine you bribe the policeman so that he will not give you the fine so he keeps the money and in exchange for that he lets you go so that's how it works people have been used to this system of social injustice and you know the word the concept Karama dignity has a lot to do with social justice and with inequality in the area and of course that's that's always an issue not only I would say not only in the Middle East and North Africa but in the rest of the world as well. Okay yeah I totally agree with Layla also I believe that the government is the economic reasons on one hand are helping speeding up the revolution making people revolt and this is what they revolt from in the first day but also that the regime is using it as a way to twist their hand by like limiting the resources and sometimes they don't the government is not investing if we have been like a year and a half since the revolution in Egypt and the government is not trying to invest anymore they're trying to show people that revolution is bad for you and this is what brought this starvation and the economic reason and they hang everything on the revolution itself so the government is using this as an excuse excuse for them to act badly and for and for a way to force people not to be to revolt anymore or to be more stablerized. Any other questions or comments right at the back there you'll get a microphone shortly. Hi thank you I think the the panel is great and they show a range of experiences which come from these various countries which are not really they're quite different in in their background and in the situation at at the moment so it was brought to my attention that for instance in Tunisia now we have had a very worrisome development of governmental control over the traditional media which has sprouted after the revolution or as a process so for instance today there is a TV station called Nesmi TV which has been sentenced guilty of inciting riots for showing the animated movie Persepolis which is made in France and they have been fined and declared guilty for the riots which destroyed their premises the premises of their owner and so on but the Islamic militants with I mean Islamic party is related people within their country so it is I think very worrisome because it shows that the revolutions do not only go forward but they can go in various directions and the role of the online and the offline or traditional media is crucial in a way of combining their influences. Can I pick up on then yeah I'll get to you Claire and pick up on then and ask you to describe the the interrelation if there is any between the mainstream media so to speak and and social media how they've intertwined possibly or not how reliant the mainstream media has become a bit of context on this trial Nesmi TV which was a is still a private TV but well well with the former it was it is rumored you know would have good acquaintances with the former rulers right and Ed broadcast the film Persepolis I don't know if you've heard about it Persepolis is a cartoon about a young lady growing up in Iran when the revolution arrived and then everything becomes hell because she's she has to cover itself and the Tehran becomes a town of molla right it had a huge success but it's a beautiful film but it's a personal story it's a biography of Marjan the the person who wrote the film and designed it and it was broadcast 15 days if I remember before the general election the election the first free and fair election in Tunisia last October September October and of course the muslim parties thought it was a what an insult and a way to you know press down on to scare the people from then became a complicated story that has many many episodes the trial but it is true that it is a constant battle it's a constant battle in Tunisia from what we see at global voices and in and now Tunisia is well covered in France in citizen media it's a constant battle against the best trial for the freedom to to have porn for example you know there was a big debate in Tunisia this past month should we censor pornography on the net and some said yes because you know like everywhere you don't want your kids and some said no because if you start censoring porn well you know what comes after that you're censoring bad news you're censoring you know unwelcome news etc and it's still continuing the debate what has to be understood is some are against some have for and believe me Tunisians will not let go easily of history I mean they're professional cyber activists and activists in town and this was judged by different courts of justice and it is continuing so the state of media in Tunisia is indeed some old quote unquote newspapers and magazine that are starting to reform from inside by hiring young journalists and doing really you know trying to but then you've got the forces like any other country of groups of you know with money let's say or with power trying to influence its common game what is new in Tunisia it's just in this complicated transition where there's not a new press and of course you can always have the danger of the old press regimes right coming back so it's Tunisia is continuously moving you know you wanted to comment yeah the question yeah commenting on what what that person in the audience was saying that whatever happens from now on will have to deal with it from now on but nothing nothing will legitimize retroactively these governments that were never legitimate in the first place so whatever happens from now on we're gonna have to ensure that citizens are represented the social justice becomes a reality but no one's gonna miss those regimes there's always nostalgic people of of the study school but that doesn't mean but it's very dangerous when we hear on mainstream media well and now what well whatever happens from now on we'll see but that's not gonna justify the fact that these governments were there for decades oppressing their own people's their own people so when it comes to coverage of mainstream media versus citizen media we see a lot of differences we saw in Tunisia how claire mentioned uh Tunisia uh no one was there in the beginning so people were in Tunisia out in the streets for a long time before mainstream media actually understood that there was something to do there it happened the same with other mobilizations in the world it's happening now with Bahrain we can see how Bahrain is maybe the forgotten revolution there's no country no in no way we could say a big power that's with the people of Bahrain so pretty much everyone supports the Bahraini regime which is one of the most ruthless governments against their own people so now mainstream media are covering the formula one race and we can see how the formula race is happening while police is firing tear gas at protesters arresting torturing detaining there's uh um one of the most renowned activists of Bahrain al-Khawaiya he's dying of a hunger strike to for 60 days now over 60 days to bring attention to the Bahraini struggle to Bahraini demands for freedom and justice while mainstream media and the international community have displayed this formula one race for the whole world to watch so this is how it goes I mean what really matters to citizens on the ground is not necessarily matching what uh mainstream media are really focusing on and that's why we are very lucky that we have tools now to get other other sources. Tariq can we turn to Egypt again in the initial phase of the the uprising Al Jazeera for example was relying heavily on Facebook material to visualize the the uprising is there how do you see the correlation between the social media and the mainstream media have they used each other or is is the mainstream media actually developing into a certain direction that it's not so reliant on social media? Well even outside the Egyptian revolution itself mainstream media is tending march now to rely more on social media they are having most of the CNN and BBC journalists in Egypt are having Twitter account and they are having discussions with people all the time with people in Egypt they use it as a way to understand how people are thinking they use it as a way to collect we have seen Al Jazeera directly is using story-fi which is a tool for curating what people are saying on Twitter and other social media too so in a way or another mainstream media is being affected by by social media and it's using it all the time uh and for sure social media is affected also by mainstream it's mutual uh how would you say it's affected could you just describe what the which one of them yeah so how how social media is affected by the mainstream oh well a lot of of social media citizen journalists are aspiring to be journalists in a way or another and they are also learning how to new rules of new ways of reporting they are they get to sometimes get to this career sometimes do have trainings by journalists so it's like even the way of writing a story and covering something at the beginning someone or if he was like covering a story he just dumped his ideas in his blog and he doesn't care about the shape or or forming it in a way that's appealing more to to the audience because the audience at that moment was like his limited readers or something who knows what he's talking about but now many of them are like formulating what they are writing in a way that is similar to what's being written on mainstream media because they know that the audience is getting bigger and bigger and people even from outside the Egypt who might not be totally aware of the situation or of the minor details that's going on on the ground are there any more comments or questions on this issue yes here at the front we have a microphone thank you I'd appreciate all of you speaking a little bit about the role of social media for shaping the the interpretation of what was happening the last few years about working on the collective memory of the people there and in regard of that maybe too whether social media is more the source for news for for videos, information that are whether journalists, citizen journalists are working with that and spreading that or whether how important is social media for the discussion from people to people about how do we see that how do we interpret what what what is happening today what was happening do we see it as disillusionment or do we fight on and and yeah that that would be my question Claire Layla who okay well I agree with you that it's a source for for a lot of news nowadays but I don't like to limit it to to be like only as it's only role as being a source because in a way or another if you go back in time like a year and a half from now during the revolution I don't like to say during because still there but I mean like during those days of the of the revolution the message was very simple people are demonstrating in the streets and they want to bring down the regime and that's what it so it was very easy for for mainstream media to cover something like this because they can create a story from this but if the situation now is like if I might like focus on an incident that happened a few days ago a couple of days ago there were people having a sitting in some square in Egypt and most of the people in Egypt were against this sitting and they don't believe in it and they were like cursing it and then the army cracked them down and they killed some of them so people who were against the sitting now went to the sitting and they are in there and the reason of this sitting because one of the candidates is a parliamentary in the presidential elections his mother has double nationalities who cannot run in the in the election why I'm saying all this story because as you can see it's very complicated story and for mainstream media to cover something like this it's not very attractive to anybody and probably nobody will understand what this story so they just ignore it so here comes the role of citizen media because they are more they don't have those rules or those background that limit it limits them from covering a certain issues that I catch you or more important to the audio they cover everything because this is their own lives and they cover it so when it comes to situations that are complicated are not that cannot be easily marketed or presented to the audience they have more precision persistence to write about it and to elaborate more about it so they are not only sources but they are also like a parallel word of media Claire would you like to comment on the odds if there aren't any more yeah I've just I received two because before coming to this conference I asked you know different Tunisian people in Tunisia what do you think of the role of social media now a lot of them have said it's getting difficult to decipher because the different political parties and there are a lot now have understood the way to manipulate it too so we're in a strange period but it's difficult with your soul if you're not Tunisian if you don't have an intense understanding of the context of each event to follow news through social media because for many reasons it can be a little bit very aggressive there can be personal stories between people that you don't know about so people are starting to be cautious about covering what is happening in Tunisia with social media because a lot of them have gone off social media as well because they got to fact I mean you know there was so much violence and aggressivity and the deformation at some point that they left the social media and they're coming back under other form just to say that you know it's now difficult to cover Tunisia through only social media if there aren't any more comments or questions right now I'd like to move on to a different point and then we can take some more questions I'd like to look at the the role or the the possibility that the various countries we're talking about have they have they learned from each other experiences are their joint networks is there some sort of connectivity some sort of overriding network that one country has learned from the other when Leila and Syria maybe you'd like to start so yes definitely um well Arab regimes have always been divided because each of them has their own interests so they ally with different countries and they they stand in different places regardless of their citizen needs and demands but people the citizens we have now seen the amount of solidarity within the Middle East and North Africa from country to country and these links these bonds between people between activists which internet communications have also helped enable um these have a lot to do with the fact the revolutions have moved from country spread from country to country because there was a powerful network in the sense of when we talk about social network in the pure human sense of the world more than the technological part social network people bonding people getting together uh challenging the political barriers so we see a lot of solidarity with Bahrain despite the lack of interest from the international community in the Bahrain revolution so syrians have a lot of problems as you can as you can imagine but they're very active they're among the most active in supporting the Bahraini revolution because they know what it is like they can really relate to that so we have big campaigns like the hawaii support in support of hawaii hunger strike a lot of syrians are actually making a big deal out of that and the other way around there's a lot of support to syrians from the rest of the countries we have this free razzan campaign that won the jury award at the Deutsche well people from all over the rest of the Arab world from all from Tunisia from Egypt from Bahrain from Morocco have been extremely active in uh supporting in standing in solidarity because they know better than anyone else the amount of repression that they're facing so solidarity is is actually very alive within Arab citizens but can you give us an example of how difficult it actually physically is or technically is to get that support out to the other countries well um you have things like very little details like you have on twitter maybe someone from Egypt I read asking someone from Palestine what do you do about the tear gas okay and you know advice like take an onion put it to your nose so that you don't breathe the gas so you know Palestinians are giving feedback to Egyptians Egyptians are giving feedback to syrians how to react how to develop strategies of nonviolent resistance so they're all learning from each other the bad part of this is that regimes also learn from each other so we see that every regime that is toppled is more brutal than the regime before so we saw that Tunisians invaded took to the streets took to the main squares Egyptians did too so syrian regime made a big huge effort into not letting people concentrate by hundreds of thousands at big spots like the omayyad mosque in Damascus if we had a million people standing next to the omayyad mosque in Damascus the government would be gone by now they cannot do anything against that but they are using every brutality every technique every strategy to terrorize population to prevent them to from gathering on physical spaces so they learned from the previous regime what it means to let to have a million people take to the streets Tarek if you've got any examples you can give us on this community networking where there's been interchange between the various activists in the different countries there's a network it has been a very long while ago it's not during the revolution it's been like 10 years or more activists meet all the time and if they don't meet they have like this social network they use them to discuss stuff all the time sometimes the messages are hard to be transferred for example during the Tunisian revolution most of the Tunisian on Twitter were talking in French so for us it was a bit harder to understand what they are saying but yeah this message might be might be hard but in in a way or another they were able to help us for advices like this one of the tier guys but what was more important that there is another message that doesn't need a language and this was transferred from one country to another which is hope what we really believe that was the most important thing that the Tunisian gave to us hope is hope if you in the 25th of January 2010 not 11 there was demos in Tahir Square in Egypt and nothing happened people went to their homes later on and what is the difference between the 25th of January 2010 and 2011 is the hope that the Tunisians gave to us few days earlier so I think this is the most important thing that's being transferred between countries from one to another so the Tunisians gave the Egyptians hope what are the Tunisians getting maybe now from Egyptians or from Syria and there obviously the political life in Tunisia is so intense with something happening every day you know every day between that maybe they do not have all the time to dedicate you know they but they're still obviously bonds as Laila said bonds have been formed that will be forever I remember you know invitation on Twitter why don't you come to to Egyptian why don't you come to Tunisia for your holidays you know sort of exchange cultural exchange or touristic exchange when Egyptian before never went to Tunisia usually but it's deeper than that you know it's part of a common story and I think they know it I wouldn't you know I see it on social network I see it on blogs I see it on traditional media I'm not part of it but sometime you get a better view and what you see is one youth in fact it's very much a question of being of having lived together those events that shaped your life forever forever because you were in between you know 20 and what 35 and it obviously has impacted their life forever do you think there's anything the the mainstream western media like Deutsche Wellessee and NBBC can do to help establish and help to further make it easier for these networks to get established and to really form a base in the respective countries is there anything I think Leila might answer this better than me no I actually wanted you to answer because you know Deutsche Welle better okay well I've been asked this question not not once many times whether it's like western media or western governments or western NGOs or whatever I really don't know I don't have something to say for for western media how to help us I believe we already are helping our own says yet maybe your support of your emotional and moral support is okay is very good and something we really appreciate but like something tangible that I can say how media can help us maybe I'm not an expert in this but I don't know well I could say that the lesson we can learn from this and maybe we could have learned it before but it's very obvious now is that you can only media wise and international community wise you can only expect development to be based on respect for human rights so we have seen how relationships have been based on economic issues and this is why for decades these governments had support and they were legitimized by US government by European governments by the international community so I hope now we're gonna reflect on how where this support has taken us and we will reconsider listening to civil society representatives from this country real civil society representatives so if I have something that I would really ask from media from governments is to actually listen to civil societies from these countries not to corrupt governments not to corrupt institutions to actually empower these civil society members and actually enter dialogue with them and that should be that should be the basis I mean human rights support consistency with human rights support because if we support them with one hand and with the other hand we are providing these governments with technology to surveil people we are providing these governments with weapons to repress people so this is inconsistent and citizens from the Middle East and North Africa will question the support coming from Western regimes if it's so inconsistent we're coming towards the end of our panel discussion but I have one question would you say that maybe the social media revolution has has run its course I mean what has run its course has has come to a point where there is not a lot more it can do and what would come afterwards I mean Tara you're saying a lot of these social media these citizen journalists are aspiring to be mainstream journalists so to speak I think I'm some of them but but I don't get your question very well I can't get your question do you think there's I mean what is the next step we had the the social media revolution the Facebook revolution has has that basically gone as far as it can go and what if anything could come next well I reply to you and also be replying to Philip who has been asking a question a couple of minutes ago about at this at the current moment people feel like well things are going in a way or another might not be the way we expected this to be so why did we revolt in the first day so let's go back to the old regime the point is that I don't like to see the revolution whether it's in Egypt or anywhere but let me focus on Egypt more about it it's not revolution against Mubarak Mubarak was an S-Horde and we removed him away but there are a bunch of S-Hords taking his place now so it's not a revolution against Mubarak itself it's a revolution against the barrier of hope a barrier of fear in fact I still remember on the 29th of January I was in Tahir Square and there was that poor lady who cannot read and write or anything and she was telling me a couple of days ago I was afraid of every single soldier in the street whenever a soldier passed by I tried to hide she was not a thief or anything but she was just afraid of from them and and today I'm revolting against the head of this state and I believe this is the most important thing and seeing it this way makes us believe that no matter how things go worse as long as the barrier of fear has been broken there will be a way or another whether it's a demo in the street or a strike in a factory or or someone writing against the regime or even using the parliament or legalization to to to confront with the regime so it doesn't have to be this romantic image of revolution with people carrying slogans and demonstrating it could be elsewhere or in different techniques you know that the aftermath of these social media revolution is still felt because there are countries that are very little in the news that are experimenting it now like Mauritania you know the state of Mauritania in where there's a demos are in have been launched on facebook and materialized in the real world thanks to facebook you know it's direct example taken from Tunisia Egypt and then you have another country which has been present at the barbs at the best of blog of war which is Bangladesh where you know they have been a horrible murders of journalists and only bloggers protested it not the politicians you know only social media only bloggers talked about it mentioned it covered it right so it is still happening somewhere else you know a different stage with different culture with different means technological intellectual political but it is still happening everywhere we have a couple of minutes left so if there are any more questions or comments from the audience right here one minute thank you very much extremely involving discussion my question to the panel is that we are talking about social media we're talking about the revolution that is bringing in then the revolt as it says on top of your slide is bringing in probably it's time that we need to sit back and analyze the entire situation we need to go back to 70s what the international community did in Afghanistan they equipped the entire Afghani nation brought all the jihadis gave them weapons they fought the war so we've collapsed and America left the Afghanistan and the national community forgot it till the two towers were brought down now it's time that we are again equipping the Arab world with the social media all these media we need to realize the situation how this situation be in next 10 20 years when the revolt might be against the western countries sorry I had to interrupt you have you got a question because we're coming to the end this is the question that how do we see social media in next 10 and 20 years when it will revolt against us as well I need a quick quick answer from the three of you I don't know about how we see social media I think it's a matter of a bigger issue of freedom of expression so we see that there's a global trend in in controlling the tools that we're using to express ourselves this is happening not only in Syria not only in Egypt we can see how it's happening in France in Australia in in Spain and I think our colleague Jillian you're from the ff talked about this very effectively so it's a global issue and what will be the future like well it will be up to us it will be up to how much can we protest and how much can we resist this attempt from the institutions to actually control our movements online. Terry a short answer. Well I think also they will will keep affecting and affecting each other both traditional and social media and eventually they will both evolve more this is what I hope so they will be able to report incidents that have been ignored in the past or be more reporting towards the people side and not towards the regime side maybe this is what I hope for. Claire any last thoughts. Well I'm optimistic I'm maybe too much I know there's a cyber war going on and it will pick up speed and it will pick up money because there's a new opening business opportunities in cyber wars and cyber arms obviously but at the same time you see smart initiative sprouting everywhere in Tunisia you have a pirate party now you know so in Tunisia right remember where it was one year ago now you have a pirate party and you've got bar camps about hacking democracy that teach people how to use you know cyber warfare on their side so they're organizing they're informing each other so l'histoire continue the story continues. Let's hope it does and that's all we've got time for me to say. My thanks to the panel Claire Ulrich, Leila Makwati and Tarek Amir thanks very much for the very lively discussion. Thank you very much for coming.
 And a warm welcome to this panel discussion co-sponsored by Deutsche Welle. I'm your host,  Rob Mudge. Not Salifika Albani. If you saw the name earlier, my colleague was sick during the week,  so I've jumped in at short notice. I'll try and make it as painless as possible for you.  Our panel discussion will focus on the title from Descent to Disillusion,  when we're going to look at three countries, Egypt, Tunisia and Syria, looking at the status of  social media, what role they've played throughout the year, and where we are now, what the status  quo is. And I'd like to introduce you to our panel for today's discussion. On my left,  Claire Oerik, who is the editor of the French version of Global Voices Online,  a member of the Bob Jury, and you've written extensively about Tunisia. A warm welcome to  you. A warm welcome to Claire Oerik. Thank you. Then on my right, we have Leila Nachoati,  a Spanish-Syrian blogger. I hope I got that right. And a human rights activist,  assistant professor of communications at Carlos III University in Madrid.  Just a junk professor. I learned the new word, the translation from Spanish is not literate.  That's new to me. And my far right, Tarek Amar, an Egyptian blogger and activist,  also works with Global Voices and also a member of the Bob's Jury. Warm welcome to all of you.  Thank you for coming. And essentially, I'd like to just explain, break it down into two parts  of our debate today. First, I'd like to look at getting appraisal from each individual country  about the status quo of the social media, what role they've played, what role they play now.  After that, I'd like to encourage questions and comments from the audience. So please feel free  to join in. And the second half, I'd like to focus at whether there is a kind of overarching  support network between the three countries. Have they been able to help each other in giving  ideas and tips on how to proceed? And again, after that, if there are any questions and comments,  then please feel free to join in. Before we start our actual debate, we'll show you a short video  looking at the current status quo in the three countries we will talk about.  People in the Arab world took to the streets calling for freedom of speech.  Here in Egypt, they managed to oust the government. Now they have to readjust to life in a completely  new world. It's sometimes hard to find one's own role. Am I part of the revolution or just  reporting on it? You want to show where you stand in your reports, but you aren't actually taking  part in the demonstrations, even if it feels like it. New broadcasters have gone on the air,  including 25 TV, made by young people who took part in the revolution.  They're glad to be involved in something new, even if they still face censorship and excessive  bureaucracy. At an international media conference, Deutsche Welles Global Media Forum, journalists  met to discuss their successes and failures after the political changes.  Lina Ben-Mini from Tunisia was one of those attending. The situation of media in Tunisia  didn't change at all. It's the same for the police who is still using violence.  Violence and repression are part of everyday life for Mohammed and his friends in Syria.  They tried to report to the world on the current situation via the internet from a secret location.  10, 20, 30 seconds, we send the media everything we can so people can see what's happening.  It often takes hours to upload the short scenes of violence.  The reporters live in constant fear of being discovered by the secret service.  The videos show that speaking your mind can still involve huge risks for many people in the Arab world.  Leila, from the start with you, we saw that the last images showed us the situation on the ground in  Syria. If we hark back to the title of our debate from dissent to disillusionment, would you say  that progress there has been that progression there already or how would you assess the current  situation on the ground? About the title of our panel from dissent to disillusionment,  I think it refers more to the disillusionment part. It's hard to pronounce this word not  being non-English speaker disillusionment. I guess it comes more from mainstream media coverage of  the revolutions and how there were a lot of expectations from the rest of the world  in seeing change from very repressive societies to stable democratic societies. This, unfortunately,  does not happen overnight. I would like to ask if any of you has heard of any revolution that does  not stumble, that does not find internal division and that leads from repression decades of dictatorship  and destroying every civil society infrastructure to very healthy, stable democratic society.  So we're going to need some more time to see the outcome of this. I think citizens continue  dissenting, continue dissenting even in extremely dangerous places such as Syria, continue risking  their lives to share what's happening. That interesting video that Robert shared,  they showed some activists in Syria. It's very common now, and this answers the question of how  people have been learning from each other. More and more video activists in Syria have  learned from activists in Tunisia, activists in Egypt, and they protect their identities more.  I don't know if those people on the video, they probably said they wanted to be on camera,  those Syrians, but normally it's a requirement for us who are working with Syrians to hide their  identity, to blur their faces. So there's more and more efficient use of this identity protection  techniques, which have been a result of the government hunting down people who appear on  camera. So the visibility helps us denounce crimes in countries such as Syria, but the  visibility is a double-edged sword, and this is what activists have learned from the previous  activists. So now we see how most YouTube videos are shown from behind, so activists record  demonstrations from behind, and there's also new software to blur people's faces. There's a software  that witnesses, yeah? Can I just... Sure, sure, sure. Just in there, a key word I think is visibility,  and those images are still very fresh in our minds. Can we maybe turn to one country that has maybe  been through that phase and gone one step further? Claire, you've followed the events in Tunisia  extensively. Where do they stand now? We don't hear or see that much from Tunisia. Yes, indeed,  Tunisia has gone out of the news a little, at least in the Western world, but the process continues,  and an incredible amount is happening every day since the revolution. As Layla said, very well,  you know, it's gritty, it's not glamorous, but Tunisia still remains, and I'd like to say,  to stress that I am not Tunisian, but that I've been following Tunisian bloggers for a long,  long time now, five years, and I've known a few, and I've been to Tunisia, and I know a lot of them.  What strikes me is the fact that it's been an absolutely bloodlet... Well, there was a lot of  blood at the beginning, you know, with the uprising. Many people died, but nothing compared to other  countries, besides, plus it's a small country, and it strikes me that Tunisia is still the revolution  lamp, because they've had, in the space of nine months, from the toppling of Ben Ali to the general  election of the constituent election, which is incredible. There are countries that have taken  centuries to achieve this, right? A bloodless election, a free and fair election, and since then,  the writing of a constitution. So it's not all a bed of roses as Lena said on this short TV item,  but it's a process where you can see forces fighting inches by inches for the Constitution,  or for their right, or for their religion, both side are fighting. But it's a process where you  have people demonstrating about every day, you have people voting laws and debating laws in an  open democratic constituent assembly, and you have people who come to visit as tourists.  So the economy is still alive. So Tunisia is incredible, and it continues being incredible,  and activism plays still a very big role. Maybe we'll talk later about that.  You mentioned you said it's almost a bloodless revolution.  Almost a bloodless revolution.  But if we compare that to what happened in Egypt, which became known as almost as the Facebook  revolution, that stood out as a keyword. Tarek, how would you assess the situation today,  a year on, from the events there?  Well, one point is that calling is a Facebook revolution is, for sure, Internet has helped  a lot, but the fact is on one hand, it was not the only agent, but the most important thing that  I want to skip this discussion now about the effectiveness of the Internet, but the most  important is that after the revolution, it came out that the Internet can be like a spark that  starts something, but building a democracy needs other tools. You are having a society with 40%  who cannot read and write. You have Internet penetration that's like 20% or 30% in the country.  So that's why the process is taking other shapes than it used to be, maybe during the early days  or the 18 days of the revolution itself.  Do you think that's the reason maybe why the West is possibly growing frustrated now at the lack of  speed of reforms that initially everyone launched onto this Facebook revolution, these events that  developed so incredibly fast, and now you say, but there's more to it, obviously,  and that's something the West is prone to forget, possibly.  I'm not sure if the West is disappointed or is, because of this or because there is nothing like  eye-catchy, like people demonstrating in the street, this is what the media have to show most of the  time. But we are also disappointed a bit because we have bad history with time, with patients and  time. The old regime used most of the time whenever things screw up with them, they said that, yeah,  we are in a process and things would get better in five years, in 10 years, in 20 years, so they  keep on like postponing everything whenever you blame them. No, okay, but it's bad now, but after  20 years, it will be good, so wait for us. So that's why we want everything to happen all of the  time. That's why we are a bit disappointed, yeah. But for sure, there's changes and the  reform is taking place. For sure, the army is trying to resist this reform, but it has to take  its way no matter what. Can we talk about crackdown and repression again? There are developments  in Tunisia again, we hear about the Salafists trying to crack down. What is the situation  there right now for the media? On the media, well, there are demos because they are debating it for  the constitution. And media is in a very big problem, in a reconstructed country. Media is where  before, of course, traditional media were totally, you know, took their order from the palace, I  suppose, right? And it was indebted media were censored. Now, Tunisia is arriving at this very  delicate point. What will be written in the long for the media, the future media? But you can see  very encouraging sign. For instance, in Nawatu played a big part as being a core blog, right?  During the revolution and before the revolution, as long as citizen media experiment in six provincial  town, where in the Maison des Jeunes, the youth club, there will be trainings on citizen journalism,  how to analyze news, how to be fair, how to look for sources, check sources, and it's an ongoing  process. And they're hoping to extend it to more cities and they will first work on the internet,  but why not? Maybe one day it will become the new daily from Tunisia. Why not? There are plenty of  things happening in Tunisia. Just like to highlight how every day is a new adventure. There was  a minister of human rights of the women right in Tunisia and one day declared that homosexuality  was a disease. The reaction was immediate. Gay day, Facebook demonstration, which goes to show  us that from one side, because you've got Salafisman demonstration in university wanting  students to be allowed to wear the full Nicaragua. You've got everything, something is happening  every day when you look from afar. And it's certainly very difficult for people inside,  right? Doing cyber activism because you can be out of breath after a year, but still they're very  resilient. They're continuing for every little details like les blessés de la révolution. People  have been hurt during the, received live bullet during the revolution and are still not cured.  The government still has not released funds to send them to hospitals or to take them to  a hospital, to give them a pension and some are dead, or died. Some went into a hunger strike  to protest, to have their rights because nobody looked after them after the revolution from  the government. So every day something is happening and you can see that the citizen  are still very, not only the professional activists, right? But they're really fighting it  all the way. This citizen journalism you describe, I think it's fair to say, in Tunisia, in Egypt has  taken a certain progression in Syria. It's very nascent. Can you describe how difficult it is  for these activist bloggers to get together? How do they get together? How do they communicate  amongst each other? Well, media in Syria are controlled. I mean, they have been controlled  for decades. So the Syrian media infrastructure is like the least developed in the area, but the most  controlled, the most surveilled. So the government literally owns the media. And they continue  fabricating their own reality of events, which is the name of the banner on their main state  channel. They call themselves the reality of events. So they give this parallel reality of  Syria where nothing is happening, where people are eating ice cream in the street and playing  kids, children. And then sometimes they show these terrorist attacks, what they call them,  maybe in some spots of the city. But more and more, you can see how these fabrications are  clumsy. So they make mistakes. Like they have people act and pose for the camera. And then  you see how these people stand up and go, and they were supposed to be wounded. So more and more,  these fabrications, pretty much no one believes it. Because we have so many contents online,  so many contents that people are sharing, compared to 1982, during the massacre of the people of  Hamah, 20,000 people got killed. And there's no videos, no photos, no contents of that massacre.  Now we have so many contents that people inside Syria, because journalists are banned from entering  the country. So activists are risking their lives to do live streaming of demonstrations,  funerals, to share it with the world. And more and more, there's a more professional  citizen journalism. They document their contents. So they include like these banners in the beginning  of every video saying, Hamah, April 20, 2012. So they give the name of the city to provide context  for journalists, for other people who want to collect these stories. But I always keep  getting asked, how do we know what's reliable? Well, it's very difficult to know what's reliable.  You have to have your own network of contacts that you rely. That's very important. But if someone's  to blame for the contents not to be reliable, it's of course the government. You cannot blame the  citizens who are risking their lives for that. You have to always question the government who's not  letting journalists in. Tariq, we talked earlier about the situation in Egypt. And you said it's  not all focused obviously on the Facebook revolution. Indeed, right at the beginning of the uprising,  the government managed to crack down and shut down the internet. I think there was a blackout for a  few days. But even despite of that, the protests continued. So obviously, there is more to it  than just the aspect of social media. It does depend on the local characteristics of each  respective country we're talking about. Yeah. I might say that now we are doing things totally  the opposite way. We are learning the tools or the methodologies or stuff that we learn from  social media and we're applying them on the ground. There is this campaign I want to talk about.  It's by some Egyptians. It's called the Askar Kazoon, which literally means the militia are  lawyers. What they are doing is they are setting data shows in the squares and in the streets  and displaying videos about the army brutality and how they are cracking down demos after the  revolution. Because there were like those statistics that show that 80% of the Egyptian people are  trusting the militia even after the revolution itself. And even with like 12,000 people have been  detained after military trials, after the fall of Mubarak himself. And there are like thousands of  people who have been killed by the army. So they felt that they have to show people in the streets  who don't have internet access to show them this. And what they are literally doing is they are copying  what's being YouTube by having it in the street and people gather there and they do comment on this  video if I have to say commenting and they might share it as well because those videos are available  online so you can copy this video and share it in another square and displaying it. So at the end  of the day you are copying what you have learned from social media somehow to do it in the physical  world. This is another initiative. It's called Tweet Chara. It's like Twitter in the street.  People go there and they announce like the subject of this conversation which is the hashtag in this  case and they try to see people going there randomly and stop them and start asking them what are  your opinion about this, what's your opinion about there. And there are also again there are retweets  because those people who listen to this conversation they go there in their homes and everywhere else  and try to transfer the message. So in a way or another we have social media has helped maybe not  in a technological way it helped and also the concept that came out from this  in this world of today of sharing of of shareism if like Isaac Mao tried to like to call it.  This concept are getting inside or outside the internet to other places.  Claire I believe you showed me an email earlier from a friend of yours who  rather vividly describes the the situation what's what the Tunisian people is going through.  Yes it's Afef. Afef is writing for Global Voices and maybe other citizen media from Tunis  and she sent me a mail when and because really I think a Tunisian voice should some from Tunisia  you know what has happened during this year what is our stand on this revolution or disillusion  right this is what she has to say please excuse me in my glasses and everything I think it's short.  I'd like to tell that like any other democratic transition experience in other countries  the Tunisian experience has had ups and downs it's still early to make judgment now but we  but but we will only able to judge it in no less than three years. I'm proud of what my  country has achieved so far free and fair election peaceful transition of power a culture of protest  art and the civil society that are all flourishing and I do believe that more than any other country  in the region we got what it takes in basic this experience meaning revolution a success  a small homogeneous and educated population around 10 millions illiteracy is not high  women are involved and women's role is very is very important in democracy  so I think it sums it up even after a year of upheaval and whatever was our political choice  you know Tunisia is still a lamp of cyber activism and we hope that she hopes that  you know other country will support continue looking at it supporting it.  Can I at this point maybe open up the discussion to the floor are there any questions or comments  I can hardly see you but sorry about that yeah there's a question down here at the front  I would like to ask what you think about the economic prospects for those countries because  I think that's where a lot of the disillusionment comes from and if people have to judge whether  it was actually worth the revolution or not they will certainly use indicators such as the  unemployment rate or inflation rate. Are you addressing that to a specific  panelist or country or just a general who would like to?  Layla. I'm not an expert on economic issues but it's definitely a factor is definitely an issue  social injustice and the very unequal distribution of resources these governments  and I know the Syrian very well but I think it applies to the rest of the of the area they rule  these countries as if the countries were their own property. So they work as a mafia that controls  the resources so if you want to open a stand or any small store in any part of Syria to mention  the example I know best you have to pay a bribe to the government in order to travel to the airport  to be able to travel to another country you have to pay to get your visa so everything  runs under this system of corruption and paying to get your way so that's what like you have a  traffic fine for instance and you never pay the traffic fine you bribe the policeman so that he  will not give you the fine so he keeps the money and in exchange for that he lets you go so that's  how it works people have been used to this system of social injustice and you know the word the  concept Karama dignity has a lot to do with social justice and with inequality in the area and of  course that's that's always an issue not only I would say not only in the Middle East and North  Africa but in the rest of the world as well. Okay yeah I totally agree with Layla also I believe  that the government is the economic reasons on one hand are helping speeding up the revolution  making people revolt and this is what they revolt from in the first day but also that the regime is  using it as a way to twist their hand by like limiting the resources and sometimes they don't  the government is not investing if we have been like a year and a half since the revolution in  Egypt and the government is not trying to invest anymore they're trying to show people that revolution  is bad for you and this is what brought this starvation and the economic reason and they  hang everything on the revolution itself so the government is using this as an excuse excuse for  them to act badly and for and for a way to force people not to be to revolt anymore or to be more  stablerized. Any other questions or comments right at the back there you'll get a microphone shortly.  Hi thank you I think the the panel is great and they show a range of experiences which  come from these various countries which are not really they're quite different in in their  background and in the situation at at the moment so it was brought to my attention that for instance  in Tunisia now we have had a very worrisome development of governmental control over the  traditional media which has sprouted after the revolution or as a process so for instance  today there is a TV station called Nesmi TV which has been sentenced guilty of inciting riots for  showing the animated movie Persepolis which is made in France and they have been fined  and declared guilty for the riots which destroyed their premises the premises of their owner and  so on but the Islamic militants with I mean Islamic party is related people within their country so  it is I think very worrisome because it shows that the revolutions do not only go forward but they  can go in various directions and the role of the online and the offline or traditional media is  crucial in a way of combining their influences. Can I pick up on then yeah I'll get to you  Claire and pick up on then and ask you to describe the the interrelation if there is any between the  mainstream media so to speak and and social media how they've intertwined possibly or not how  reliant the mainstream media has become a bit of context on this trial Nesmi TV which was a  is still a private TV but well well with the former it was it is rumored you know would  have good acquaintances with the former rulers right and Ed broadcast the film Persepolis  I don't know if you've heard about it Persepolis is a cartoon about a young lady growing up in  Iran when the revolution arrived and then everything becomes hell because she's she has to cover itself  and the Tehran becomes a town of molla right it had a huge success but it's a beautiful film but  it's a personal story it's a biography of Marjan the the person who wrote the film and designed it  and it was broadcast 15 days if I remember before the general election the election the first  free and fair election in Tunisia last October September October and of course the muslim parties  thought it was a what an insult and a way to you know press down on to scare the people  from then became a complicated story that has many many episodes the trial but it is true that  it is a constant battle it's a constant battle in Tunisia from what we see at global voices and in  and now Tunisia is well covered in France in citizen media it's a constant battle against  the best trial for the freedom to to have porn for example you know there was a big debate  in Tunisia this past month should we censor pornography on the net and some said yes  because you know like everywhere you don't want your kids and some said no because if  you start censoring porn well you know what comes after that you're censoring bad news you're  censoring you know unwelcome news etc and it's still continuing the debate what has to be  understood is some are against some have for and believe me Tunisians will not let go easily of  history I mean they're professional cyber activists and activists in town and this was judged by  different courts of justice and it is continuing so the state of media in Tunisia is indeed some old  quote unquote newspapers and magazine that are starting to reform from inside by hiring  young journalists and doing really you know trying to but then you've got the forces like  any other country of groups of you know with money let's say or with power trying to influence  its common game what is new in Tunisia it's just in this complicated transition where there's not  a new press and of course you can always have the danger of the old press regimes right coming back  so it's Tunisia is continuously moving you know you wanted to comment yeah the question  yeah commenting on what what that person in the audience was saying that whatever happens  from now on will have to deal with it from now on but nothing nothing will legitimize  retroactively these governments that were never legitimate in the first place so whatever happens  from now on we're gonna have to ensure that citizens are represented the social justice  becomes a reality but no one's gonna miss those regimes there's always nostalgic people of  of the study school but that doesn't mean but it's very dangerous when we hear on mainstream  media well and now what well whatever happens from now on we'll see but that's not gonna justify the  fact that these governments were there for decades oppressing their own people's their own people so  when it comes to coverage of mainstream media versus citizen media we see a lot of differences  we saw in Tunisia how claire mentioned uh Tunisia uh no one was there in the beginning so people were  in Tunisia out in the streets for a long time before mainstream media actually understood that  there was something to do there it happened the same with other mobilizations in the world it's  happening now with Bahrain we can see how Bahrain is maybe the forgotten revolution  there's no country no in no way we could say a big power that's with the people of Bahrain so pretty  much everyone supports the Bahraini regime which is one of the most ruthless governments against  their own people so now mainstream media are covering the formula one race and we can see how  the formula race is happening while police is firing tear gas at protesters arresting torturing  detaining there's uh um one of the most renowned activists of Bahrain al-Khawaiya he's dying of a  hunger strike to for 60 days now over 60 days to bring attention to the Bahraini struggle  to Bahraini demands for freedom and justice while mainstream media and the international community  have displayed this formula one race for the whole world to watch so this is how it goes I mean what  really matters to citizens on the ground is not necessarily matching what uh mainstream media  are really focusing on and that's why we are very lucky that we have tools now to get other other  sources. Tariq can we turn to Egypt again in the initial phase of the the uprising Al Jazeera for  example was relying heavily on Facebook material to visualize the the uprising is there how do you  see the correlation between the social media and the mainstream media have they used each other or  is is the mainstream media actually developing into a certain direction that it's not so reliant  on social media? Well even outside the Egyptian revolution itself mainstream media is tending  march now to rely more on social media they are having most of the CNN and BBC journalists in  Egypt are having Twitter account and they are having discussions with people all the time with  people in Egypt they use it as a way to understand how people are thinking they use it as a way to  collect we have seen Al Jazeera directly is using story-fi which is a tool for curating what people  are saying on Twitter and other social media too so in a way or another mainstream media is being  affected by by social media and it's using it all the time uh and for sure social media is affected  also by mainstream it's mutual uh how would you say it's affected could you just describe what the  which one of them yeah so how how social media is affected by the mainstream oh well a lot of  of social media citizen journalists are aspiring to be journalists in a way or another and they are  also learning how to new rules of new ways of reporting they are they get to sometimes get  to this career sometimes do have trainings by journalists so it's like even the way of writing  a story and covering something at the beginning someone or if he was like covering a story he  just dumped his ideas in his blog and he doesn't care about the shape or or forming it in a way that's  appealing more to to the audience because the audience at that moment was like his limited  readers or something who knows what he's talking about but now many of them are like  formulating what they are writing in a way that is similar to what's being written on mainstream  media because they know that the audience is getting bigger and bigger and people even from  outside the Egypt who might not be totally aware of the situation or of the minor details that's  going on on the ground are there any more comments or questions on this issue yes here at the front  we have a microphone  thank you I'd appreciate all of you speaking a little bit about the role of social media  for shaping the the interpretation of what was happening the last few years about  working on the collective memory of the people there and in regard of that maybe too whether  social media is more the source for news for for videos, information that are  whether journalists, citizen journalists are working with that and spreading that  or whether how important is social media for the discussion from people to people about  how do we see that how do we interpret what what what is happening today what was happening  do we see it as disillusionment or do we fight on and and yeah that that would be my question  Claire Layla who okay well I agree with you that it's a source for for a lot of news nowadays  but I don't like to limit it to to be like only as it's only role as being a source because in a  way or another if you go back in time like a year and a half from now during the revolution I don't  like to say during because still there but I mean like during those days of the of the revolution  the message was very simple people are demonstrating in the streets and they want to bring down the  regime and that's what it so it was very easy for for mainstream media to cover something like  this because they can create a story from this but if the situation now is like if I might like  focus on an incident that happened a few days ago a couple of days ago there were people having a  sitting in some square in Egypt and most of the people in Egypt were against this sitting and  they don't believe in it and they were like cursing it and then the army cracked them down and they  killed some of them so people who were against the sitting now went to the sitting and they are in  there and the reason of this sitting because one of the candidates is a parliamentary in the  presidential elections his mother has double nationalities who cannot run in the in the election  why I'm saying all this story because as you can see it's very complicated story  and for mainstream media to cover something like this it's not very attractive to anybody and  probably nobody will understand what this story so they just ignore it so here comes the role of  citizen media because they are more they don't have those rules or those background that limit  it limits them from covering a certain issues that I catch you or more important to the audio  they cover everything because this is their own lives and they cover it so when it comes to  situations that are complicated are not that cannot be easily marketed or presented to the  audience they have more precision persistence to write about it and to elaborate more about it  so they are not only sources but they are also like a parallel word of media  Claire would you like to comment on the odds if there aren't any more yeah I've just I received two  because before coming to this conference I asked you know different Tunisian people in Tunisia  what do you think of the role of social media now a lot of them have said it's getting  difficult to decipher because the different political parties and there are a lot now  have understood the way to manipulate it too so we're in a strange period but it's difficult  with your soul if you're not Tunisian if you don't have an intense understanding of the context of  each event to follow news through social media because for many reasons it can be a little bit  very aggressive there can be personal stories between people that you don't know about  so people are starting to be cautious about covering what is happening in Tunisia with  social media because a lot of them have gone off social media as well because they got to  fact I mean you know there was so much violence and aggressivity and the deformation at some point  that they left the social media and they're coming back under other form just to say that you know  it's now difficult to cover Tunisia through only social media if there aren't any more  comments or questions right now I'd like to move on to a different point and then we can take some  more questions I'd like to look at the the role or the the possibility that the various countries  we're talking about have they have they learned from each other experiences are their joint networks  is there some sort of connectivity some sort of overriding network that one country has learned  from the other when Leila and Syria maybe you'd like to start so yes definitely um well Arab regimes  have always been divided because each of them has their own interests so they ally with different  countries and they they stand in different places regardless of their citizen needs and demands  but people the citizens we have now seen the amount of solidarity within the Middle East and  North Africa from country to country and these links these bonds between people between activists  which internet communications have also helped enable um these have a lot to do with the fact  the revolutions have moved from country spread from country to country because there was a powerful  network in the sense of when we talk about social network in the pure human sense of the world  more than the technological part social network people bonding people getting together uh  challenging the political barriers so we see a lot of solidarity with Bahrain despite the lack of  interest from the international community in the Bahrain revolution so syrians have a lot of problems  as you can as you can imagine but they're very active they're among the most active in supporting  the Bahraini revolution because they know what it is like they can really relate to that so we have  big campaigns like the hawaii support in support of hawaii hunger strike a lot of syrians are actually  making a big deal out of that and the other way around there's a lot of support to syrians from  the rest of the countries we have this free razzan campaign that won the jury award at the Deutsche  well people from all over the rest of the Arab world from all from Tunisia from Egypt from Bahrain  from Morocco have been extremely active in uh supporting in standing in solidarity because they  know better than anyone else the amount of repression that they're facing so solidarity is  is actually very alive within Arab citizens but can you give us an example of how difficult it  actually physically is or technically is to get that support out to the other countries well um  you have things like very little details like you have on twitter maybe someone from Egypt I read  asking someone from Palestine what do you do about the tear gas okay and you know advice like  take an onion put it to your nose so that you don't breathe the gas so you know Palestinians are  giving feedback to Egyptians Egyptians are giving feedback to syrians how to react how to develop  strategies of nonviolent resistance so they're all learning from each other the bad part of this is  that regimes also learn from each other so we see that every regime that is toppled is more brutal  than the regime before so we saw that Tunisians invaded took to the streets took to the main  squares Egyptians did too so syrian regime made a big huge effort into not letting people concentrate  by hundreds of thousands at big spots like the omayyad mosque in Damascus if we had a million  people standing next to the omayyad mosque in Damascus the government would be gone by now they  cannot do anything against that but they are using every brutality every technique every strategy  to terrorize population to prevent them to from gathering on physical spaces so they learned  from the previous regime what it means to let to have a million people take to the streets  Tarek if you've got any examples you can give us on this community networking where there's been  interchange between the various activists in the different countries there's a network it has been  a very long while ago it's not during the revolution it's been like 10 years or more  activists meet all the time and if they don't meet they have like this social network they use  them to discuss stuff all the time sometimes the messages are hard to be transferred for example  during the Tunisian revolution most of the Tunisian on Twitter were talking in French so for us it was  a bit harder to understand what they are saying but yeah this message might be might be hard but in  in a way or another they were able to help us for advices like this one of the tier guys  but what was more important that there is another message that doesn't need a language and this was  transferred from one country to another which is hope what we really believe that was the most  important thing that the Tunisian gave to us hope is hope if you in the 25th of January 2010 not 11  there was demos in Tahir Square in Egypt and nothing happened people went to their homes later on  and what is the difference between the 25th of January 2010 and 2011 is the hope that the Tunisians  gave to us few days earlier so I think this is the most important thing that's being transferred  between countries from one to another so the Tunisians gave the Egyptians hope what are the  Tunisians getting maybe now from Egyptians or from Syria and there obviously the political life in  Tunisia is so intense with something happening every day you know every day between that maybe  they do not have all the time to dedicate you know they but they're still obviously bonds as  Laila said bonds have been formed that will be forever I remember you know invitation on Twitter  why don't you come to to Egyptian why don't you come to Tunisia for your holidays you know sort of  exchange cultural exchange or touristic exchange when Egyptian before never went to Tunisia usually  but it's deeper than that you know it's part of a common story and I think they know it I wouldn't  you know I see it on social network I see it on blogs I see it on traditional media I'm not part  of it but sometime you get a better view and what you see is one youth in fact it's very much a  question of being of having lived together those events that shaped your life forever forever because  you were in between you know 20 and what 35 and it obviously has impacted their life forever do you  think there's anything the the mainstream western media like Deutsche Wellessee and NBBC can do to  help establish and help to further make it easier for these networks to get established and to really  form a base in the respective countries is there anything I think Leila might answer this better  than me no I actually wanted you to answer because you know Deutsche Welle better okay  well I've been asked this question not not once many times whether it's like western media or  western governments or western NGOs or whatever I really don't know I don't have something to say  for for western media how to help us I believe we already are helping our own says yet maybe your  support of your emotional and moral support is okay is very good and something we really appreciate  but like something tangible that I can say how media can help us maybe I'm not an expert in this  but I don't know well I could say that the lesson we can learn from this and maybe we could have  learned it before but it's very obvious now is that you can only media wise and international  community wise you can only expect development to be based on respect for human rights so we  have seen how relationships have been based on economic issues and this is why for decades these  governments had support and they were legitimized by US government by European governments by the  international community so I hope now we're gonna reflect on how where this support has taken us  and we will reconsider listening to civil society representatives from this country real civil  society representatives so if I have something that I would really ask from media from governments  is to actually listen to civil societies from these countries not to corrupt governments not to  corrupt institutions to actually empower these civil society members and actually enter dialogue  with them and that should be that should be the basis I mean human rights support consistency with  human rights support because if we support them with one hand and with the other hand we are  providing these governments with technology to surveil people we are providing these governments  with weapons to repress people so this is inconsistent and citizens from the Middle East and North  Africa will question the support coming from Western regimes if it's so inconsistent we're  coming towards the end of our panel discussion but I have one question would you say that maybe the  social media revolution has has run its course I mean what has run its course has has come to a  point where there is not a lot more it can do and what would come afterwards I mean Tara you're  saying a lot of these social media these citizen journalists are aspiring to be mainstream journalists  so to speak I think I'm some of them but but I don't get your question very well I can't get your  question do you think there's I mean what is the next step we had the the social media revolution  the Facebook revolution has has that basically gone as far as it can go and what if anything could  come next well I reply to you and also be replying to Philip who has been asking a question a couple  of minutes ago about at this at the current moment people feel like well things are going  in a way or another might not be the way we expected this to be so why did we revolt in the  first day so let's go back to the old regime the point is that I don't like to see the revolution  whether it's in Egypt or anywhere but let me focus on Egypt more about it it's not revolution  against Mubarak Mubarak was an S-Horde and we removed him away but there are a bunch of S-Hords  taking his place now so it's not a revolution against Mubarak itself it's a revolution against the  barrier of hope a barrier of fear in fact I still remember on the 29th of January I was in Tahir  Square and there was that poor lady who cannot read and write or anything and she was telling me  a couple of days ago I was afraid of every single soldier in the street whenever a soldier passed  by I tried to hide she was not a thief or anything but she was just afraid of from them and and  today I'm revolting against the head of this state and I believe this is the most important thing and  seeing it this way makes us believe that no matter how things go worse as long as the barrier of fear  has been broken there will be a way or another whether it's a demo in the street or a strike  in a factory or or someone writing against the regime or even using the parliament or legalization  to to to confront with the regime so it doesn't have to be this romantic image of revolution with  people carrying slogans and demonstrating it could be elsewhere or in different techniques  you know that the aftermath of these social media revolution is still felt because there are  countries that are very little in the news that are experimenting it now like Mauritania  you know the state of Mauritania in where there's a demos are in have been launched  on facebook and materialized in the real world thanks to facebook you know it's direct example  taken from Tunisia Egypt and then you have another country which has been present at the  barbs at the best of blog of war which is Bangladesh where you know they have been a horrible  murders of journalists and only bloggers protested it not the politicians you know only social media  only bloggers talked about it mentioned it covered it right so it is still happening somewhere else  you know a different stage with different culture with different means technological  intellectual political but it is still happening everywhere we have a couple of minutes left so  if there are any more questions or comments from the audience right here  one minute thank you very much extremely  involving discussion my question to the panel is that we are talking about social media we're  talking about the revolution that is bringing in then the revolt as it says on top of your slide  is bringing in probably it's time that we need to sit back and analyze the entire situation  we need to go back to 70s what the international community did in Afghanistan they equipped the  entire Afghani nation brought all the jihadis gave them weapons they fought the war so we've  collapsed and America left the Afghanistan and the national community forgot it till the two towers  were brought down now it's time that we are again equipping the Arab world with the social media  all these media we need to realize the situation how this situation be in next 10 20 years when  the revolt might be against the western countries sorry I had to interrupt you have you got a question  because we're coming to the end this is the question that how do we see social media in next 10 and  20 years when it will revolt against us as well I need a quick quick answer from the three of you  I don't know about how we see social media I think it's a matter of a bigger issue of freedom of  expression so we see that there's a global trend in in controlling the tools that we're using to  express ourselves this is happening not only in Syria not only in Egypt we can see how it's happening  in France in Australia in in Spain and I think our colleague Jillian you're from the ff talked about  this very effectively so it's a global issue and what will be the future like well it will be up to  us it will be up to how much can we protest and how much can we resist this attempt from the  institutions to actually control our movements online. Terry a short answer. Well I think also  they will will keep affecting and affecting each other both traditional and social media  and eventually they will both evolve more this is what I hope so they will be able to report  incidents that have been ignored in the past or be more reporting towards the people side and not  towards the regime side maybe this is what I hope for. Claire any last thoughts. Well I'm optimistic  I'm maybe too much I know there's a cyber war going on and it will pick up speed and it will  pick up money because there's a new opening business opportunities in cyber wars and cyber arms  obviously but at the same time you see smart initiative sprouting everywhere in Tunisia you  have a pirate party now you know so in Tunisia right remember where it was one year ago now you  have a pirate party and you've got bar camps about hacking democracy that teach people how to use  you know cyber warfare on their side so they're organizing they're informing each other so  l'histoire continue the story continues. Let's hope it does and that's all we've got time for  me to say. My thanks to the panel Claire Ulrich, Leila Makwati and Tarek Amir thanks very much for the very lively discussion. Thank you very much for coming.
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