Has Liquid confirmed that GH will stand in this time ? I know he has been playing with the team recently , but haven ' t seen an official confirmation for DreamLeague finals . <| sep |> There ' s more than one axis on which things can be judged . Doing something that harms others is generally wrong . Pedophilic acts harm children , sociopaths generally harm those around them , etc . Being black , or a woman , or gay , or trans , or any of the other things being discussed previously don ' t cause harm to anyone else . If a gay guy gets married or has consensual sex nobody is harmed . If a black man shares a restroom with a white person nobody is harmed . If a woman votes or pursues their career of choice nobody is harmed . My argument didn ' t change at all because I never claimed that any natural trait is inherently good , I just said that people shouldn ' t be treated poorly or judged because of them . That still holds true . On an entirely separate criteria that wasn ' t relevant until you brought it up , actions or beliefs should be judged negatively when they ' re demonstrably harmful to others . I say you ' re changing your argument . You disagree . That ' s fine . I ' m not going to quibble with you on this point . Let ' s move on . I ' ve heard plenty of arguments against gay people getting married and none of them involve any logic or evidence of demonstrable harm to anyone . I still have no idea why you assume I refuse to interact with intolerant people or hear what they say . I ' ve heard plenty of homophobic people , racists , and misogynists try to justify their shitty beliefs , but none of them involve logic . They always either hate people for the way they were born , or they make up reasons to suggest their actions are harmful , most of which hinge on their religious beliefs or some ridiculous slippery slope bullshit . I understand what they are , I just said that it wouldn ' t matter if I didn ' t because those things are wrong . I really don ' t know how to put it any other way . If it ' s too difficult to understand why subjugating someone or otherwise treating them poorly because of the color of their skin is unfair and wrong , there ' s not much else I can say . Basic human decency should be enough to understand that it isn ' t fair to treat someone shittily for factors entirely out of their control . You stated from the very beginningIntolerance is a lack of respect or equal treatment generally for things that people are born with , such as sex , race , ethnicity , nationality , sexuality , etc . Hating someone or otherwise judging them negatively for things out of their control , such as sex , sexuality , or race , is entirely unfair . They have no choice in the matter . People who are opposed to homosexuality are wrong because they ' re hateful of others for something out of their control . They were born attracted to a specific gender , and that ' s not something they can change . So you think people who are opposed to homosexuality are hateful and intolerant because they ' re judging people for their natural born traits rather than their actions or behavior , correct ? How do you know this ? How many people do you know who have come out and said this ? How many people do you know have literally said they hate homosexuals or homosexuality ? If I said I hate pedophilia , would you interpret that as me hating pedophiles for being born pedophiles or me hating the actions and behavior of pedophiles ? You ' d almost certainly assume the latter . Why then would you assume that people who are opposed to homosexuality are any different ? Do you have any way to back up your belief that people opposed to homosexuality are actually hateful , or are you simply accusing them of being hateful because their beliefs and actions seem unfair to you ? Actions like voting to oppose gay marriage ? Actions like Christians refusing to bake wedding cakes for gay couples ? Actions like Christians refusing to cater gay wedding services ? Nobody understands the motivations of everyone , what you ' re suggesting here is essentially that you need to understand every single opposing argument to an issue before forming an opinion , which is clearly impossible . You can decide that something is wrong without consulting all 7 billion people on the planet first . No , but before you can make valid generalizations and assume the motivations of millions of people you need to have evidence to back it up . Hate and intolerance as you define it are sins of intent and motivation . Assuming the intent and motivation of manymillions of people requires some pretty strong evidence . Uncritical tolerance of everything ever is ridiculous . It ' s okay to be intolerant of things that are wrong . Moral relativism is worthless when it comes to basic human rights . On this , we agree . Your problem is that you presume the thoughts and motivations of millions of people and have no problem accusing them of things you can ' t possibly know . I can ' t know everyone , nor do I want to . I ' ve known and still know plenty of people who I would label that way , and for good reason . I don ' t see how I ' d benefit from avoiding calling racist things racist , though . If someone says they hate Obama because blacks are inferior and should be subservient , would it be wrong of me to consider them racist ? Should I carefully hear out their reasoning for an obviously ludicrously shitty opinion ? Because I ' ve heard that one and variations of it . Using your example , how many people do you know who ' ve said they hate Obama because blacks are inferior and should be subservient ? I ' d be surprised if you can count the number of people on a single hand , yet people on the political Left have accused practically everyone who opposes Obama of being racist . They ' ve likewise implied that anyone who doesn ' t vote for Hillary in 2016 is sexist . People like you have accused practically everyone who opposes gay marriage of being hateful and intolerant . This is what I have a problem with . People who do this are either lying and playing identity politics to forward an agenda , OR they ' re so convinced that they understand the thoughts and motivations of others , despite what the others claim , that they have no problem treating people with disdain . People who do this have no grace or moderation towards those they disagree with , and they have no ability or desire to understand those they oppose . My underlying system of values is essentially that treating people shittily when they haven ' t done anything harmful or wrong is bad . Not really sure what part you take issue with , since I think that ' s one of the few pieces of moral absolutism that most wouldn ' t dispute . They might be hypocrites about it , but they likely agree in principle . The only place I can think of that I ' m losing you is that I think it ' s okay to judge someone negatively for doing the aforementioned bad thing . I have no problem with people judging others negatively for doing something bad . I have a problem with people presuming the thoughts and motivations of others , and using that to justify their own shitty behavior . If you were logically consistent and I explained to you why some subset of people are opposed to gay marriage , and that explanation wasn ' t because of how they were born but rather due to their actions and behavior , then you would have no choice but to admit that they aren ' t hateful or intolerant as you define it . But you won ' t let this happen because you presume to know the thoughts and intent of people despite their claims to the contrary . In order to justify such a presumption you need some pretty overwhelming evidence that you just don ' t have .