Thank you for the in depth explanation Yeah , i never understood why his ulti fired way slower than basic whilst doing less damage . thanks anyway man <| sep |> What uthefeegle was saying was that you can ' t just immediately spend marks and pull it out of the Kiosk if you only had the y 1 version . You have to do the quest to unlock it first , and then it ' s available for an exotic shard and 2500 glimmer . <| sep |> thanks i ' ve noted all of those down and am now slowly going through them all , great suggestions , love afgrund . you are right it is normally only a death metal thing but which is why i am struggling to find examples , the other place it tends to be used in porno grind but i just don ' t like porno grind unfortunately . i ' ve listened to narcosis for years and they started out ripping off early brutal truth style but over the years evolved into this amazing stop , start , really fast grind thing which they sped up and did again in ergon carousel , and they were such an established band in the uk as they must have been going over 10 years narcosis not ergon that i was sure some other people must of taken the idea and made it their own but i just can ' t find any . when i was at obscene extreme this year i spoke to the singer from famine someone posted a link to their album a couple of days ago on here and he was telling me about a load of northern bands that are doing this but i was drunk at the time and can ' t remember a single one of them . lulzrobinson came close to the sound i ' m looking for . afgrund are excellent and you mentioning them only means that the war on drugs has to be the next song i put on . now