Cruising Controversy in Kiwi Land.... German's in Stir
By 2flit,
September 29, 2020 in Cruising Anarchy
2flit 121
2flit
Location:Nehenehe, currently in New Zealand 4/2021
Interests:Staying for the Southern Winter here; then getting the hell out of Dodge as soon as the world reopens to westward bound cruising
Three Germans on a 16m yacht break New Zealand Covid Boarder Blockade and are arrested. Arraigned today in Court and Deported tomorrow, Boat seized..... https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/427031/german-yachties-had-blatant-disregard-for-new-zealand-law-immigration-nz
Or, Desperate Yachties stranded in hurricane Zone horribly mistreated by unkind Kiwi's.....
Mid 3,862
Location:long way from the poles
Interests:T 'n A , S D 'n R&R
5 minutes ago, 2flit said:
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/427031/german-yachties-had-blatant-disregard-for-new-zealand-law-immigration-nz
Page not found (404)
The crew of a German yacht have been detained in the Bay of Islands after they broke New Zealand's Covid-19 border restrictions.
Their 16-metre vessel, Anita, arrived in Opua on Friday afternoon despite being declined permission to enter the country by the Ministry of Health.
The three crew, all German nationals, have been refused entry and Immigration New Zealand was arranging for them to be flown home on the next available flight.
"New Zealand's border restrictions are in place for a very good reason – to help stop the spread of Covid-19 and protect the health of New Zealand's population," said Peter Elms, Immigration NZ's national manager of border and visa operations.
"The action by these individuals to knowingly travel here without approval demonstrates a blatant disregard for New Zealand's border restrictions and will not be tolerated."
The Ministry of Health said the three crew had all returned negative Covid-19 tests and had been isolated on board their yacht for more than 14 days.
Elms said the crew had requested an exemption to the Covid-19 border restrictions but chose to travel before getting approval.
"The request for a border exception was refused and they chose to continue to sail to Opua regardless. None of the crew made any request for an immigration border exception for themselves."
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12368207
fresh out sympathy .
Cisco 208
Location:Body and boat reunited in La Libertad, Ecuador.
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/427201/german-yachties-jailed-until-flight-on-thursday
In jail because they are a 'flight risk'...... too funny......
Where now for the rule flouters in Fiji??
Ishmael 9,145
Mental ecdysiast
Location:Fuctifino
Already rollling in this thread:
Navig8tor 1,645
Navig8tor
10 hours ago, Mid said:
Yep, and they get to fly home and have their yacht confiscated.
yacht has not been confiscated...
SloopJonB 11,306
SloopJonB
Location:West Vancouver, B.C.
Interests:Daysailing, local cruising and working on them.
Fuck'em.
SASSAFRASS 731
SASSAFRASS
Location:PNW, back to the real world till next time
All the retoric aside I would be interested in hearing the Germans side. The how's and why that motivated them to do what they did. There is a definite opinion among the couch surfers that may or may not coincide with people actively Cruising, IE their boat is their only home. BJ obviously has a strong opinion and is doing it. As I said in the other thread it's complicated and the broad strokes are not always right.
Fah Kiew Tu 2,940
Fah Kiew Tu
Location:Tasmania, Australia
Interests:Boats, books and bulldozers
35 minutes ago, SASSAFRASS said:
And as I said in the other thread, Governments do NOT care. Cruisers are insignificant numerically, they don't vote, they have no political clout and the populace as a whole sees them as people out enjoying themselves while everyone else has to go to work and worry about their jobs, mortgage, rent et al.
Then some want to ignore a direct instruction and expect to be able to do so with impunity. Tough.
We all know the bullshit claims of emergency, gear problems etc that a lot of cruisers used to pull to get into the Galapagos. That sort of behaviour reflects on the entire fleet and when something like this happens, the reservoir of goodwill is about tapped out.
It doesn't matter *what* the people actively cruising think, quite frankly. They can think Australia & NZ are a pack of bastards. They can think we're all secretly fascists. They can think the places are run by shape-shifting lizard people. It doesn't matter because they don't matter in any political sense. They're mostly not Aus/NZ citizens, they don't have right of entry, they can't contact their political representatives & bitch, they simply do not count. What access they get is purely by grace & favour of the host countries.
You all need to get that firmly through your skulls.
FKT
Yes you have made your views and point quite clearly, and I still would like to know what the Germans story is. I'm on a boat in a foreign country dealing with a the global shit show that is covid 19. You are on your couch in Taz. We do not have the same prospective, I am interested in their perspective. You have made your point I hear you and am not arguing, no need to make it louder.
Actually today I'm on my boat in Tas, sitting in a quiet anchorage.
Miffy 2,141
It is September.
not March. Not April. Not May. Not June.
With noonsite, various cruiser forums and nets and good old fashioned dock chat - no one is being caught or surprised in a situation or circumstance they didn't put themselves in by failure to be flexible, failure to adapt and failure to take covid serious.
5 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:
Good to hear, not trying to dis people who have houses and boats just wondering about the motivation of the Germans in particular. For perspective at cocktail hr last week we had a neighbor boat, US couple, try to tell us the whole thing was a conspiracy and they have only had 20,000 covid deaths in the US, unfortunately I had a few drinks and no filter in place and let them have it. The point being the reality of where you are right now globally can be very different, it's easy to judge and perfect world scenarios don't always fit when you are worried about your family and it's safety, the bar moves alot.
2 hours ago, SASSAFRASS said:
Yeah, I don't get it. How many people are living in their own unreality bubble?
Maybe they had to leave their last port because the authorities wouldn't extend their visas and kicked them out. Anything short of that and their departure was voluntary. Be interesting to know that.
We all understand the vagaries of cyclone time but as Miffy said, had 6 months to come up with a plan. Sitting and waiting in the islands then deciding to bail to NZ when it was out there that NZ wasn't granting entry isn't much of a plan IMO.
I'd like to know what they were thinking too. I'd also like anyone interviewing them to ask some hard & pointed questions.
I still think we could & should grant entry to a single port, quarantine the cruisers at their expense then let them fly home on the first available plane after securing their boat. But I'm sympathetic to the high desirability to leave the cyclone area.
Location:waiotaiki bay surf club
one other thing to keep in mind is the swarm of "refugee" boats that have hit Aus of late and rumor has it NZ is also soon to be a target so dont show surprise when these types are shutdown cold...... we almost call it self defense
41 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:
I still think we could & should grant entry to a single port, quarantine the cruisers at their expense then let them fly home on the first available plane after securing their boat. But I'm sympathetic to the high desirability to leave the cyclone area.
I'd be totally fine with that but it'll have to be expensive. Like 50 per foot per day for 10 days quarantine for food and water at an anchorage and you get wheetabix and 1% milk.
and if you try and step off the boat - you're done.
1 minute ago, Miffy said:
As long as there's strawberry jam I'm OK with that. I like Weetabix.
olaf hart 750
olaf hart
Location:D'Entrecasteaux Channel
36 minutes ago, 167149 said:
You won't hear about it from the Oz side.
Border Force intercept them on the high seas, and sent them back or tow them back.
no publicity, no lawyers .....
42 minutes ago, Ishmael said:
Strawberry jam on Weetabix?
1 hour ago, olaf hart said:
Yeah but we've had 20+ years playing this game, NZ hasn't.
kent_island_sailor 4,750
kent_island_sailor
Location:Kent Island!
Given the line of millionaires and billionaires around the block and down the street wanting to get in, NZ probably couldn't care less if ANY cruising boat EVER comes there again
10 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:
NZ are a nice bunch (soft touch). They're letting foreigners stay, just extending the visas as needed.
As for the filthy rich buying their way in, that's no doubt true and the same applies here as well. Those bastards always find a way. Always some sniffing about around here, as Olaf Hart would know. Bruny Island has some popularity.
Not My Real Name 3,442
Not My Real Name
6 hours ago, SloopJonB said:
How could you even swallow that?
On 9/29/2020 at 8:05 PM, 2flit said:
That's an interesting take, giving they ostensibly left from Nuka Hiva, which isn't considered a big cyclone risk spot.
I get where the OCC is coming from, but in this case I think there Germans were flat out wrong to try to enter the country when their entry had been denied.
19 hours ago, Ishmael said:
It's kind of buried there. We need a German Dumbasses thread...
On 9/29/2020 at 9:41 PM, Cisco said:
They already demonstrated they have no respect for Kiwi laws. They certainly could no-show for their deportation flights, then someone has to track them down and recover them.
Why take the risk? This way they make sure they are out immediately.
Interesting - that articles says they are claiming boat damage to the mast that was causing water leaks and were "planning to spend $50,000" when they got here on the boat, which is what turned this into a humanitarian crisis. since they didn't think going to Fiji was possible with the weather.
I was under the impression that the superyachts coming in with the "having a lot of work done exemption" needed to demonstrate concrete plans and put up deposits against the work they were planning to do.
I assume we're here more reports about the condition of the vessel as the story unfolds.
I suspect most cruising boats could always find a couple of things that needed to be fixed, or dream up a need for new sails or gear...
We have a visa scam for mainland Chinese folks going on across the road from us right now...
Marcjsmith 813
Marcjsmith
Location:Washington DC
either that or a Vegemite sandwich
Panoramix 1,689
Location:Rennes, Brittany, France
Interests:Origami hats
The trio left for New Zealand and applied for the exemption, with Fiji being their back up option if their application was not granted.
They were two days away from New Zealand when they were told their exemption application was declined by the Ministry of Health.
To me it looks like the New Zealand authorities took ages to reply and then the Germans did not want to U-turn for some reason as they were past Fiji (psychological may be ?). Not the best decision but that isn't either as deliberate as it might initially appear.
Shame that France hasn't managed to colonise Tasmania, that would be a safe haven for fellow Europeans What were our ancestors thinking when colonising places like New Caledonia in cyclones zones!
8 minutes ago, Panoramix said:
They weren't - they just took what the Brit's had overlooked.
4 hours ago, B.J. Porter said:
10 hours ago, SloopJonB said:
They have to be saturated in milk first. By the time you're finished, you have eaten the jam, half the Weetabix, and a piece of cardboard from the box.
kinardly 291
kinardly
Location:San Diego, California
Interests:Anything I can't afford: yachts, airplanes, motorcycles, younger women.
18 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:
They're mostly not Aus/NZ citizens, they don't have right of entry, they can't contact their political representatives & bitch, they simply do not count. What access they get is purely by grace & favour of the host countries.
What a refreshing perspective! I wish that resonated here.
2 hours ago, Panoramix said:
1. No one sane leaves before they obtain approval - pushing it is like what weirdos do to drunk girls at the bar with foot in the door.
2. I don't even know how... in 2020, how you can be so flippant about colonial legacy as if other people didn't exist...
26 minutes ago, Miffy said:
I just love winding up Fuck you too.
Sad state of affairs on so many fronts. Starting to look very much like all that's gone before is lost forever...
https://www.noonsite.com/news/south-pacific-australia-and-new-zealand-refuse-cyclone-refuge-for-yachts/
Jud - s/v Sputnik 1,314
Jud - s/v Sputnik
On 9/29/2020 at 12:05 AM, 2flit said:
Im the spirit of American Dumbass... :-)
7 hours ago, olaf hart said:
It's hard to get to $50,000 for "a couple of things" though, even if it's Kiwibucks at .67 to the USD.
We replaced our generator and re-did our standing rigging here in 2015 and didn't spend that much.
3 hours ago, Ishmael said:
That's what I was wondering. I like Weetabix, but it's still basically a flakey bailing sponge and you can pour about a cup of milk into a few little bricks and have a dry bowl when you're done. You can see the milk level drop as they suck it up...
Back in 2015 we rented a place out in Kaikohe when we had our boat hauled in NZ to replace the generator and do other work. The hostess of the place left us a nice little stash of basic food goods to get us started, including a little box of multi-grain Weetabix. As anyone who has parented a boy knows, 17 year olds exist on the the near-constant edge of starvation, and before we'd even had a look around ours was starving and looking for a snack.
He though the Weetabix were granola bars, and took one out of the box and tried to eat it.
He could barely get out the words "This is the worst granola bar ever" before the thing pulled almost every drop of water out of his face.
The New Zealand immigration department has been inundated with visa requests and dealing with closures of all their satellite outsourced offices being closed by the pandemic. Much of the paperwork is processed in Beijing (why the Kiwis tolerate this is beyond me), and the Beijing office has been closed.
We've dealt with the Beijing office, we're reasonably certain they have no clue the concept of "cruising" and "yachties" exists. To get yachtie related help you need to deal with Auckland, or the guys assigned to cover Northland.
I know, because I've been dealing with them. At this moment if you file for a visitor visa (like I need to) you get an automated response with a number to call for help. If you call for help, you get a message that says "No assistance is being provided with visitor visas at this time. Please refer to the website for assistance." The website sends you back to the telephone number you just called.
I sent feedback via the "complaint" system about this circularity over a month ago. No response as yet.
So there is really very little priority given to these sort of applications, and there are little resources to deal with the,.
This is why you do not set sail for a country until your paperwork is in order.
It's not like getting on a plane, you can't cancel at the last minute or reschedule once your on a multi-week journey at sea.
7 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:
I wouldn't recommend to set sail without a firm plan either, I am just saying that the Germans were possibly naive and disorganised rather than acting like bandits. True bandits would have fared better!
True. True bandits would have come in at night with the AIS off having filed no paperwork.
What people seem to have missed is that these people are Germans.....
Entering other countries uninvited is just what - historically - Germans do .............
4 minutes ago, Cisco said:
Yup, the Poles (and others in inconvenient locations) were unfortunately in the way en route to their ultimate goal - the conquest of Russia...
49 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:
Spent double that in 2015...... with a stronger NZ dollar... I still wake screaming in the night...
Yeah, if memory serves we were around .70 when we did the generator and rig.
Looks like the cage has been well and truly rattled... watch this space...
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/427309/electronic-tracking-of-yachts-possible-legal-argument-for-their-entry-to-new-zealand
You certainly would have if you could have. And given your past form, used the place to test atomic weapons as you did with other colonial possessions.
Not to mention sinking a civilian ship in New Zealand and killing someone because there's very little more myopic than Europeans thinking the Pacific should be their playground.
Just as the Poms did with Australia......
Miffy... where do you come from?
The rainbow warrior was a disgrace but don't take it personally as the French state has done lot of questionable things to lot of countries! Thanks god I wasn't a tax payer back then as i would have expected half competent secret services for my hard earned cash.
8 minutes ago, Miffy said:
And of course the French would never refuse something as simple as a hot shower to a distressed mariner coming to one of their possessions under jury rig, and tell him that permission to land was denied.
No, they'd never do that. To a New Zealander, no less.
16 minutes ago, Cisco said:
I grew up in Browns Bay but have been working internationally since I was a young adult - stints in Netherlands, Japan, Taiwan, Philippines and now live in the US with my partner & adopted family.
MikeJohns 98
MikeJohns
Location:Hobart
Interests: Well off the beaten trail
10 hours ago, olaf hart said:
They could have talked to a lawyer on how to play it. Naive to think they'd get away with just entering and trusting in humanity with half an excuse. Everything is referred to in dept lawyers these days for an opinion on what the legal position is. There's no leeway whatsoever for official decisions outside of the legal framework of regulation.
But the SOLAS obligations trump any regulations wrt entry. It wouldn't take much thought to come up with "danger to life or vessel" not requiring rescue but "in extremis". Then the rules are completely different.
When and where was this ?
1 hour ago, Panoramix said:
ISBN 0-473-06431-6.
I'll leave it to you to go and look it up. Or not as you choose.
KC375 1,780
Location:Northern Hemisphere
Interests:family, sailing, skiing, travel
4 hours ago, Cisco said:
Brits are well ahead at that activity
But really the Americans are true leaders in this field
only three countries in the world America hasn't invaded or have never seen a U.S. military presence: Andorra, Bhutan, and Liechtenstein
2 hours ago, Miffy said:
Not sure where Browns Bay is . However I think that anyone of european descent living in the Americas - north and south -, Australia or NZ, and anywhere else that they happen to be should - if concerned with the evils of colonialism - put their feet where their mouth is and bugger off back to Europe.
Me? I accept that it is what it is....
ISBN 0-473-06431-6.
You mean this probably ?
That's bizarre, some idiot in Paris decided that a jury rig wasn't an emergency. For the record even as a French national I would need an authorisation to moor there and the islands have only been opened to non scientific/military staff in the 90s.
sa_yachting_1986_final.pdf
29 minutes ago, Panoramix said:
Yeah it was particularly stupid. Even Australia wouldn't have done that.
Well, probably not. These days I'm not so sure - I certainly wouldn't go to Macca and try to go ashore though it'd probably be OK if I'd lost a rig.
Point being that fucking over cruising yachtspersons isn't anything new or exclusive.
Funny thing - Bill Tilman went to & climbed the Crozets but I don't think he made the mistake of actually asking first, and there was no base there at the time.
There's a great scene in Alvah Simon's book, "North to the Night" when, having made it to the Arctic (after a 12 or so year meandering circumnavigation and return to the US and being in culture shock in South Florida and wanting to escape and see the Arctic —so the put the word out for a steel steel sailboat, eventually acquired from Frenchman "Jean" - another story unto itself...), and, having made it to the Arctic but before freezing into the ocean at the end of the short summer, for the long, long winter in a protected bay on Bylot Island...they ventured as far north as Thule, Greenland - the far northwest extremity of Greenland, where there is (secretive?) US Airforce base. Looking for a spare part of some sort, or a means to fashion one, they pull up there and are allowed to forage in the base's spare parts/materials bin (or perhaps someone does it for them). Anyway, great story and counterpoint to itinerant yachties being fucked over by uncaring government officials...
Trovão 597
Location:-30.110442, -51.261258
Interests:sailing (pretty obvious, uhmm)preferentially on boats with more than one hull ;D
bingo. i always say "who asks a question wants an answer, and it might not be the one you expect...".
Zonker 4,566
Zonker
23 hours ago, Panoramix said:
Hey at least they taught everybody to bake baguettes properly.
I've got no sympathy to the Germans. They knew it was an issue and didn't get permission.
Black Sox 1,057
Black Sox
Interests:Lurking
58 minutes ago, Trovão said:
Easier to get forgiveness than permission.
1 minute ago, Black Sox said:
^^^this
jdazey 100
jdazey
Location:Kingston, WA
Interests:Multihulls
Yeah, but if the forgiveness doesn't come, you're just another dumbass.
3 minutes ago, jdazey said:
Specially in Kerguelen where there is just a military base and a scientific one....
DDW 922
DDW
15 hours ago, Cisco said:
Not sure what the statutes of limitation on these things are, but really you have to go though Europe and back to Africa, since that is where your ancestors probably came from. The "natives" of the Americas need to get back there as well, by way of Asia.
2 hours ago, jdazey said:
Yeah, but you've done it (whatever the "it"was you wanted to do).
For clarity, I was referring to a general principle rather than a specific case.
On 10/1/2020 at 12:46 AM, B.J. Porter said:
add a can of beetroot and you'll be just fine
6 hours ago, Black Sox said:
So how's that working out for the Germans in this case?
How's it worked out for boat people coming to Australia?
I'm sympathetic to the mindset, God knows I've done it myself, but you need to calculate what the retaliation can be if you *don't* ask for permission first.
Point of fact I built my house without getting permission from the local government but I checked carefully into the planning rules first and what penalties they could levy on me. Then eventually cheerfully paid the fine. As I told the inspector, it was less hassle than going through the hoops.
My brothers neighbour in Ireland did the same thing, he is a dairy farmer.
Refused to pay the fines, was eventually sent to jail for a couple of weeks.
Said it was the first holiday he had in twenty years....
House is still there, so he won out in the end.
Gotta say, your strategy is easily the best way to handle the planning department of Kingborough council, did the fine end up costing less than their planning fees?
7 hours ago, Trovão said:
Not this time, it seems.
2 minutes ago, olaf hart said:
Not sure - it was 15 years ago. Guaranteed less hassle though.
Latest is over my big shed, which I *did* get planning & building approval for. The planning was pretty straightforward (back then). Building was a saga. They told me the design was inadequate and wouldn't say why, as telling me the problem would constitute giving advice, and they weren't in the biz of giving free advice.
I recognise a Catch-22 when I hit one so I took the plans to a certified consulting engineer. *HE* said the structural details were fine, that Kingborough used a Mickey-Mouse analysis program and how I'd done some of the wind bracing wouldn't pass their software. It was fine, just different. He did suggest upping the big studs from 100x50 to 125x40 for better stiffness though and I agreed. Cross out 1 dimension, write in new one, initial the change, stamp the plans and sign them, $220 including GST. Money well spent IMO.
Problem solved, consulting engineer trumps building inspector. I re-submitted and they sat on them as I knew they would. Got on with my steel fixing etc and when I was ready told the building department I was ready to pour, they needed to come & do the inspection. Got told they hadn't approved the plans so I couldn't. My reply was, it had been over the 42 days, I had planning approval, I had plans certified by an engineer, I was required to give them 72 hours notice to do an inspection, I had just done that and I was pouring concrete in 3 days.
Funnily enough my plans were stamped 'Approved' and the inspection done & passed. I poured on schedule.
Did the same WRT frame and final, got verbal confirmation, moved on.
12 years later I get a letter telling me my shed construction is unfinished - permit not closed out - and I have to pay them an extension fee plus arrange for the appropriate inspections at al at my expense. I wrote back politely telling them to FOAD as I had all the inspections done, the shed had been finished for some 12+ years, I'd built a 12m steel sailboat in it since then and nothing had fallen over or broken in the many wind storms since. That their crap record-keeping wasn't my problem.
I have a reply that I have yet to bother opening.
Currently I am planning another small structure to keep my boat stuff in. Needless to say I am not asking for permission.
Apropos of nothing at all, if one possesses a pile of fish farm pontoons, constructs a barge with workshop on top of them and pays MAST $82 to register such a thing as a vessel, it cannot be considered a structure for Council planning/building purposes. One is quite entitled to keep a registered vessel on one's property.
I pass this tip on purely for information purposes...
If you are interested to see how returning ( by sea) Australian citizens are being treated I suggest reading this.. https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f168/australian-quarantine-equality-240727.html ..
Dale arrived in Bundaberg yesterday...
Windward 635
Interests:"I will have to remember 'I am here today to cross the swamp, not to fight all the alligators.'"
What about weetabix with that heavy cream in England and the strawberry jam?
Could work if there was enough cream.
I haven't had a weetabix in 20 years.
Try it @Ishmael This was your idea.
tane 103
two little facts @French Polynesia:
with a EU passport you can stay indefinitely, the boat has to be imported after -was 3, now 2 years, 7%, to be increased soon.
French Polynesia for the most part & most of the time is practically cyclone free, see screenshot. Basically only El Nino years are risky. We have La Nina now (http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/enso/outlook/ ) & the forecast is for further cooling in the East. & in one of the worst cycloneseasons FP ever experienced, 82/83 their main impact on the Marquesas were torrential rains (we arrived 10/83 & the memory was fresh in the minds of the inhabitants)
In Tahiti you can practically fix anything on the boat, at a price of course, but I don't see owners of 16m yachts as particularly impoverished.
So conclusion: absolutely no reason to sail to NZ without permission. (& the damage to the boat they claim as "excuse": well after a "tour de force" FP to NZ you would expec the boat to need some repairs (apart from the fact that on any boat anytime one could find something...)
(& in case I am labelled as "on the couch in Austria": true, but we came back from Tahiti a week ago after selling our boat there. Had been staying from 3/19 to 3/20 in FP & altogether abt 1 1/2 years during 3 previous rtw.)
Keith 1,278
Location:The traditional coastal waters of the Orca,Grey Whale,Humpback Whale, Minke Whale, Salmon, Pacific White-sided Dolphin, Great Blue Herron, Canada Geese,Common Loon, Beavers, Sea Otters, Raccoons, Cougars, Bears, Coyotes and Grey Wolves.
European Bloke 837
European Bloke
Don't try that shit in Blighty, farmer did that and they made him demolish his house. He'd tried to hide it behind a wall of bails, but that didn't work either.
1 hour ago, European Bloke said:
Same here...
What's the point of a planning authority if you don't have to comply ?