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Featured Tradition before Scripture
Discussion in 'Religions Q&A' started by The Anointed, Jul 12, 2019 at 3:31 AM.
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pcarl Well-Known Member
According to the teaching of the Church Sacred Tradition is "the deeds wrought by God in the history of salvation." Sacred Tradition includes both the deeds and their meaning. The deeds of God, and especially the deeds of Christ, teach us Christ's Way of holiness, which is partially-revealed in the deeds God wrought in Old Testament times and fully-revealed in Christ's own life of self-giving. The meaning of the deeds includes love, faith, hope, mercy, prayer, self-sacrifice, and more, as Christ put it into practice in the events of His life, His death on the Cross, His Resurrection, and the "final sending of the Spirit of truth" at Pentecost (Dei Verbum, 2). Sacred Tradition is not these ideas themselves (of love, faith, hope, mercy, prayer, self-sacrifice, and more), but rather their embodiment in the deeds of God in salvation history, in the life and works of Christ, and in the Church that Christ established. Sacred Tradition is infallible because it is the deeds that God wrought, especially the deeds that God-Incarnate wrought, in the history of salvation. The true meaning of Sacred Tradition is infallible, just as the true meaning of Sacred Scripture is infallible.
#21 pcarl, Jul 12, 2019 at 11:35 AM
Unveiled Artist Veteran Member
pcarl said: ↑
I think its the other way around, Sacred Tradition, the oral, Apostolic tradition precedes the written Gospels.
Ideally, the traditions are from the apostles of the bible. So everything is based on the bible through tradition. For example, the Eucharist/Lord's Supper is scripture without it, that tradition wouldn't exist. The role of Jesus' mother in the church is also based on scripture. Baptism, communion, and repentance are biblical based.
I can't think of any practices in the Church that's not biblically based since the bible isn't a Jewish book so I assume there are other parts of the bible not quite jesus-specific nor in his words.
#22 Unveiled Artist, Jul 12, 2019 at 11:48 AM
Skwim Veteran Member
What better way to proclaim the truth than to tell your audience that you alone can decipher its source.
#23 Skwim, Jul 12, 2019 at 12:15 PM
metis aged ecumenical anthropologist
Catholic-- liberal & ecumenical
LightofTruth said: ↑
Where do your 'correct/true' teachings come from?
From Jesus, as passed down from him and then through the apostles. However, it is not an exact art with it comes to interpretation, so here's where the HS can be helpful.
The Church teaches what it believes is right, but there's no belief that we have that the Church will bat 1000. Therefore, we do the best we can with what information we do have, plus there's a need to periodically make adjustments as the world is not standing still, nor is revelation.
How about yours?
#24 metis, Jul 12, 2019 at 12:19 PM
Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
The Anointed said: ↑
Why is that Catholics accept tradition over scripture?
They were taught that. The Scriptures, for 1,000 years, were kept in a dying language, and was forbidden to be translated into other common languages.
Why Christians Were Denied Access to Their Bible for 1,000 Years | HuffPost
#25 Hockeycowboy, Jul 12, 2019 at 12:27 PM
To believe and confess contrary to 'what we believe' is to put that one outside the group.
And to disagree with the most central and essential doctrine of creeds is to absolutely put one out of their church.
Maybe in your church but not ours. I'm going to use an example of this given by me a former Trappist monk who now is a parish priest:
The Church is like a Roman traffic cop who's waving his hands to direct traffic, some of which will follow him and do as he directs closely, some paying scant attention to him, and some will just ignore him. If there's no accident, then there's no problem. But if a conflict of some type occurs, then the officer is there to try and help the situation out.
As Catholics, we have the right of discernment through our conscience, and if it were to conflict with the Church's teachings, and we're certain we're correct on this, then we must go in the direction of our own conscience. OTOH, if we're not certain we're correct, then we should go in the direction of what the Church teaches.
Hockeycowboy said: ↑
Language is language, and Koine Greek (NT) and ancient Hebrew (OT), also were "dying languages" as both changed over the centuries. IOW, languages evolve as do plants and animals and the Earth.
sooda Well-Known Member
#28 sooda, Jul 12, 2019 at 12:45 PM
lostwanderingsoul Well-Known Member
The Bible has some very strict rules for people to follow. If the church told new converts they had to follow all of them, people would be hesitant to join. But if you make up some easy to follow rules and substitute those for the ones in the Bible, then people are more willing to accept them.
#29 lostwanderingsoul, Jul 12, 2019 at 3:31 PM
The Anointed Well-Known Member
biblical believer
sooda said: ↑
Most people couldn't read and nobody had Bibles. They were far too expensive.
You also believe that the Jews never had horses, don't you.
Acts 17: 11. And the people of Berea were more open-minded than those in Thessalonica, and they listened eagerly to Paul's message. They searched the Scriptures day after day to see if Paul and Silas were teaching the truth.
Have you got any more of your erroneous beliefs.
#30 The Anointed, Jul 12, 2019 at 5:08 PM
Sounds like an anachronism to me.. What "scriptures" did they have?
Date of Writing: The Book of Acts was likely written between 61-64 A.D.
#31 sooda, Jul 12, 2019 at 5:13 PM
Unveiled Artist said: ↑
For example, the Eucharist/Lord's Supper is scripture without it, that tradition wouldn't exist.
Christians gathered for the Eucharist before any Scripture was penned.
#32 pcarl, Jul 12, 2019 at 5:15 PM
@The Anointed
When were the Gospels written? - CompellingTruth.org
https://www.compellingtruth.org/when-gospels-written.html
Most others suggest a post-70 AD date, usually 80s-90s, due to its advanced Christology and other internal factors. Any time between 65-95 AD is possible. What is clear is that all four Gospels were written by apostles or those associated with them to present the …
metis said: ↑
I'm going to use an example of this given by me a former Trappist monk who now is a parish priest:
There is a hierarchy of teaching, I don' t think the good priest inferred that non belief in the 'core' Creed of the Church one remains in communion with the Church. We may disagree on interpretation of Scripture etc.
You don't know?
Specifically, the Latin Vulgate, by Jerome, was the official text of the Catholic Church.
Bible possession once banned by the Catholic Church!
#35 Hockeycowboy, Jul 12, 2019 at 5:32 PM
Latin was always offered in the schools I attended. I took French, but all my friends took Latin.
What kind of schools did you go to?
Put in another way, christianity says scripture is the Word and the Word is christ. It states this is something that's been prophesied in the old testament. Catholics commune in light of the OT and NT. That's why they have their vestment colors, tabernacle, consecration, and so forth. It's the Last Supper and the Church continues to remember the Last supper. If the Church came before the Last Supper in scripture, it wouldn't make sense.
It's always been based on oral scripture. The Church built on jesus christ. Jesus christ is the Word and the Word has always been the foundation of the Church. The theology of the church is said to have "always been."
If you mean written scripture, then I guess you're right. Many christians put more value in the words as the Word, so...
The church is based on the Word not the Word on the Church.
#37 Unveiled Artist, Jul 12, 2019 at 5:43 PM
Then let us now look at some of the traditions, handed down by the saints of the Roman church of Emperor Constantine.
Both Hellena and her son Constantine are saints in the Roman Catholic church, and their saint Helena is called, "The equal of the Apostles." Over three hundred years after the church of Jesus had been established in Jerusalem, Constantine appointed his mother Helena as Augusta, and gave her unlimited access to the imperial treasury in order to locate the relics of early Judeo-Christian times.
The Church of the Nativity is the oldest Church in the Holy Land still in use. The first Church was built over the Grotto of the Nativity in the 4th century A.D under the patronage of the Roman Emperor Constantine's mother Helena.
As the tradition of the church of Constantine teaches as biblical truth, the Milk Grotto, a short distance from the church of the nativity, is where Mary was supposed to have hid after the wise men who had paid homage to her child in the manger and had returned to their own country, and while Herod's solders were slaughtering the innocents in the streets of Bethlehem of Judaea, Mary was supposed to have suckled the baby Jesus to keep it quite, before her escape to Egypt.
Nowhere do the scripture say that the wise men from the east were ever in Bethlehem of Judea, In fact, the scriptures reveal that it was almost two years after the birth of Jesus that the wise men came looking for the king that had been born in Judea.
According to the traditions of the Church of Constantine, Mary and her child rested in a cave, called the Milk Grotto (la Gruta de la Leche), near the place where today stands the Church of the Nativity (la Iglesia de la Natividad). There, (Or so it is said) their supposed Virgin Mary breastfed the child. A drop of milk fell on a stone of the cave, and the stone turned white. During the early centuries, this white rock, diluted in water, took the appearance of milk and was used as a religious relic.
Both Christians and Muslims believe scrapings from the stones in the grotto boost the quantity of a mother's milk and enhance fertility. Mothers usually mix it in their drinking water; would-be mothers place the MAGICAL rock under their mattress.
There is also an old tradition that identifies this as the burial site of the young victims of Herod's Slaughter of the Innocents. There is a chapel dedicated to them in the caves beneath the Church of St. Catherine.
Anyone who believes that rubbish, has never read the bible, and are gullible enough to believe in some supposed virgin birth.
Diana Montgomery God is Love.
Spiritual not Religious
To begin with, Luke reveals that Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea, which is not to be confused with the Bethlehem in Galilee, which today is called 'Beitlahm,' which town was only some two miles from Nazareth, and Jesus was circumcised when he was 8 days old, then 33 days later, he was presented at the temple in Jerusalem for the ceremony of purification, after which the family returned to their home in Nazareth, where, according to Matthew, the wise men who had seen the heavenly sign that had heralded his birth almost two years previously in 6 B.C, arrived to pay homage to him, and it was after they were warned not to return to reveal to Herod where the child was, and Joseph was warned to get up and flee from his home in Nazareth to Egypt, that Herod sent in men in, to kill the innocents, which was in 4 B.C., some two years after the birth of Jesus, and the year in which Herod the Great died.
Whereas, according to the tradition handed down by the Roman Church of Emperor Constantine, which was founded in the 4th century, Some three hundred years after the Church of Jesus was established in Jerusalem, the wise men came to the stable in Bethlehem, and immediately after they left, Herod had his men kill all the young boys, who were two years and below, and The family fled to Egypt from Bethlehem in 6 B.C., and never returned to their home in Nazareth until 3 B.C., after the death of Herod the Great in 4 B.C., and Archelaus was ruling as King of Judea.
Where are you getting all of that? I don't remember it being in the Bible and I know the Bible pretty well. Not to mention that I keep up with all of the secular people who try to explain differences between what is in the Bible and what the truth is about Jesus. I have not heard most of this anywhere before.
#39 Diana Montgomery, Jul 12, 2019 at 6:41 PM
Diana Montgomery said: ↑
There are two Bethlehems and its unlikely Mary and Joseph walked 90 miles or rode a donkey..
Luke's account is a great favorite, but its unlikely Herod had all the baby boys killed or that they fled to Egypt. In fact, there wasn't a census that year.