Texas DPS Official: 'Wrong Decision' Not to Breach Uvalde Classroom
19 police officers entered the school and decided not to breach the classroom.
Posted by Mary Chastain Friday, May 27, 2022 at 01:00pm 86 Comments
Texas Department of Safety Director Steven McCraw tore into the Uvalde police for their handling of the school shooting at Robb Elementary School:
Texas Department of Public Safety Director Steven McCraw said Friday, when asked why police at Robb Elementary School didn't engage the shooter sooner, said "the on-scene commander at the time believed that it had transitioned from an active shooter to a barricaded subject."
"A decision was made on the scene – I wasn't there — that this was a barricaded subject situation, there was time to retrieve the keys and wait for a tactical team with the equipment to go ahead and breach the door and take on the subject," he continued. "At that point, that was the decision, that was the thought process."
McCraw later said "from the benefit of hindsight from where I am sitting now, that of course it was not the right decision, it was a wrong decision, very, there was no excuse for that."
"I wasn't there but I'm just telling you from what we know, that we believe there should have been an entry as soon as you can," he added.
The Texas DPS just told us that there were 19 police officers in the hallway at Robb Elementary who made the decision not to break into the room where children were being shot bc they believed it turned into a barricade situation, while children inside were alive and calling 911.
— Greg Price (@greg_price11) May 27, 2022
Texas DPS Official:
"Texas embraces and teaches the active shooter doctrine…as long as there's kids, as long as there's, someone is firing, you go to the gun, you find them, you neutralize them. Period." pic.twitter.com/uiRWJpbTxG
— Townhall.com (@townhallcom) May 27, 2022
Texas official: Police didn't enter the school because the "on-scene-commander" wrongly believed "there were no more children at risk."
"Obviously, based upon the information we have, there were children in that classroom that were at risk…" pic.twitter.com/k07MUQaK8T
A teacher propped open a door, which Ramos used to enter the school. We do not know why the teacher opened the door.
Ramos barricaded himself in a fourth-grade classroom. He shot at least 100 rounds on Tuesday.
The school resource officer was not on campus at the time. McCraw could answer why he was not there. The officer drove by the shooter who knelt down next to a vehicle.
We also learned that local police officers went into the school, and fired at Ramos, but pulled back when Ramos fired back.
McCraw also said that Ramos belonged to a group chat where they all discussed him being a school shooter. We can add that to the list of disturbing trends someone should have reported.
Here are some more snippets from McCraw's press conference.
A Texas official goes over information learned from the shooter's digital footprint. pic.twitter.com/d9gymMROMv
A Texas official continues to try and explain why police decided to wait instead of confront the shooter. pic.twitter.com/LwnRjqBHJW
Texas official: The decision to not breach the classroom was made by the Chief of Police for the school district.
"He was convinced at that time that there was no more threat to the children…and that they had time to organize…" pic.twitter.com/TKRmatNfWO
***Previous Reporting…
The Uvalde police look worse than the Parkland police. The timeline provided shows the police had plenty of time to stop gunman Salvador Ramos before he entered Robb Elementary School.
From The Wall Street Journal (emphasis mine):
Local residents voiced anger Thursday about the time it took to end the mass shooting at an elementary school here, as police laid out a fresh timeline that showed the gunman entered the building unobstructed after lingering outside for 12 minutes firing shots.
Victor Escalon, a regional director for the Texas Department of Public Safety, gave a new timeline of how the now-deceased gunman, 18-year-old Salvador Ramos, walked into Robb Elementary School, barricaded himself in a classroom and killed 19 children and two teachers.
Mr. Escalon said he couldn't say why no one stopped Ramos from entering the school during that time Tuesday. Most of the shots Ramos fired came during the first several minutes after he entered the school, Mr. Escalon said.
People who arrived at the school while Ramos locked himself in a classroom, or saw videos of police waiting outside, were furious.
Twelve minutes.
Escalon also admitted that, despite prior reports, no armed officer confronted Ramos because the school did not have "an officer readily available and armed."
The timeline:
Ramos shot his grandmother.
Crashed her truck in a ditch by the school at 11:28 AM.
Shot at people at a funeral home across the street.
Someone called 911 at 11:30 AM.
Ramos climbed the fence.
He fired before he went inside.
He walked inside without any problems at 11:40 AM.
Police arrived at 11:44 AM.
They exchanged fire with Ramos.
Ramos locked himself in a fourth-grade classroom.
Border Patrol team showed up at 12:40 PM.
They got into the classroom and killed Ramos.
Angeli Rose Gomez noticed the police doing nothing when she arrived at the school: "They were just standing outside the fence. They weren't going in there or running anywhere."
Gomez encouraged the police to go into the school nicely at first and kept pushing.
The U.S. Marshals put Gomez in handcuffs "for intervening in an active investigation." She also saw someone tackle a father to the ground and pepper spray another father.
What active investigation? They were all standing outside!
A U.S. Marshals spokesman insisted they did not put anyone in handcuffs.
Bob Estrada and his wife live across the street. They could not believe they saw police not entering the school: "They were trying to cover something up. I think the cops were waiting for backup because they didn't want to go into the school."
Jay Martin disputed the police timeline because it's different than what he saw outside the school: "Nothing is adding up. People are just really frustrated because no one is coming out and telling us the real truth of what went down."
Then we have this dude telling CNN that the cops were more concerned about their welfare than the kids.
"They could've been shot. They could've been killed," Texas police lieutenant explains why law enforcement did not go into Uvalde school right away. pic.twitter.com/lfzTtAQqFg
— Virginia Kruta (@VAKruta) May 27, 2022
No words:
And so on Thursday, CNN's Wolf Blitzer had some pressing questions for Texas DPS Lt. Chris Olivarez.
"Don't current best practices, Lieutenant, call for officers to disable a shooter as quickly as possible, regardless of how many officers are actually on site?" Blitzer asked.
"Correct," Olivarez replied. "In the active shooter situation, you want to stop the killing, you want to preserve life. But also one thing that, of course, the American people need to understand is that officers are making entry into this building. They do not know where the gunman is. They are hearing gunshots. They are receiving gunshots," Olivarez said.
"At that point, if they proceeded any further not knowing where the suspect was at, they could've been shot, they could've been killed, and at that point that gunman would have had an opportunity to kill other people inside that school," he continued. "So they were able to contain that gunman inside that classroom so that he was not able to go to any other portions of the school to commit any other killings."
I honestly can't believe this officer went on television and offered this explanation for inaction. Leadership decided it was better to allow the rampage to continue for an hour rather than risking the safety of the many armed officers waiting outside?? It's borderline depraved. https://t.co/wr3D70iVLJ
— Stephen Gutowski (@StephenGutowski) May 27, 2022
I've interviewed cops who responded to school shootings before. Contrast this Colorado officer's story with what the Texas lieutenant is saying. If somebody is shooting in a school and you don't know where they are GO FIND THEM IMMEDIATELY. https://t.co/vd5Ovvr1c9 pic.twitter.com/kG4wzNRlbh
86 86 Comments School Shooting, Texas
School Shooting, Texas
cowpill | May 27, 2022 at 1:10 pm
This is completely unacceptable, heads need to roll for this.
fscarn in reply to cowpill. | May 27, 2022 at 3:01 pm
No heads will roll.
No paychecks will be lost.
All future pension payments will remain intact
And qualified immunity will protect them all.
Government employees ARE not important than we.
The Gentle Grizzly in reply to cowpill. | May 27, 2022 at 4:12 pm
Nothing will be done.
Peabody in reply to The Gentle Grizzly. | May 27, 2022 at 9:10 pm
Well, deck chairs will be rearranged.
The Gentle Grizzly in reply to Peabody. | May 28, 2022 at 6:52 am
And more military equipment will be obtained.
SeymourButz | May 27, 2022 at 1:21 pm
You almost have to be a conspiracy theorist, lest you try to understand how deeply incompetent this PD is.
The Gentle Grizzly in reply to SeymourButz. | May 27, 2022 at 6:19 pm
The Supreme Court ruled the cops don't have to defend the peasantry.
LibraryGryffon | May 27, 2022 at 1:21 pm
From Uvalde in 2018 "One of our Morales Junior High students was experiencing a crisis. Upon rendering aid and support, the student revealed a future plan to conduct a school shooting in the year of 2022. With the type of detailed information that was revealed by the student t (o law enforcement and confirmed in their investigation, the student has been arrested and will not be returning to our school." (https://www.kens5.com/article/news/crime/two-teens-arrested-in-mass-casualty-plot-in-2018-targeting-a-uvalde-middle-school/273-548565605)
The teens were 13 and 14. No names, but what are the odds one of them was this guy? The article says the older kid was "released to his mother".
CommoChief in reply to LibraryGryffon. | May 27, 2022 at 5:00 pm
DPS ruled that out in today's noonish briefing.
irv | May 27, 2022 at 1:25 pm
The police were correct to keep civilians from going inside – or would have been if they, themselves, had been doing anything to hep those children.
By now it should be clear that every police department on Earth needs a plan for dealing with mass shooter situations and that plan needs to be aggressive, heavily trained, and followed when the time comes.
There is no excuse for anything less than that. Fire the entire department. Replace them with combat vets. Don't ever let this happen again!
Dathurtz in reply to irv. | May 27, 2022 at 2:07 pm
They do have one. These cops just decided it was too dangerous for them.
Peabody in reply to Dathurtz. | May 27, 2022 at 2:24 pm
The police were afraid to go in because they might get shot and die. Yet a mother without a weapon was brave enough to go in and retreive her two children.
The Gentle Grizzly in reply to Dathurtz. | May 27, 2022 at 3:36 pm
This is the sort of thing I'd expect in New York, Massachusetts, or Oregon west of the Cascades.
But, this is rough tough mah gunz he-man Texas.
Dathurtz in reply to The Gentle Grizzly. | May 27, 2022 at 4:50 pm
A lot of Texas isn't exactly "Texas" anymore. There is a lot more hat and a lot less cattle, these days.
I heard cattle is on the endangered species list in Texas. But there are still a lot of hats available.
I wonder if Texas ever was what the braggarts said it is.
To Pea: same here. The ones that say "Keep Austin Weird".
Dathurtz in reply to Dathurtz. | May 27, 2022 at 6:35 pm
Grizz,
Those old Rangers were serious. The frontier men have been largely replaced by suburban men.
guyjones in reply to The Gentle Grizzly. | May 28, 2022 at 7:43 am
My thoughts, exactly. One fairly expects Texas law enforcement to be well-trained and well-versed in "active shooter" protocols, by now. Those protocols are well-established and are not arcane, at all. The cowardice and ineptitude on display here is what you'd expect from Leftist-influenced and emasculated law enforcement departments in a Dumb-0-crat-run state.
aramissebastian in reply to The Gentle Grizzly. | May 28, 2022 at 3:48 pm
Stereotypes are misleading . . .
For all you folks who've never visited New York City, and imagine that all the men are walking around in pink tutus, I don't recommend tangling with the NYPD — they'll hand you your backside faster than you can say "Commie liberal fruitcake."
But, I digress . . .
I really wanted to expose the lie of the 'good guy with a gun."
For starters, there's an assumption that every good guy with a gun is ipso facto a hero who automatically is going to intervene in a deadly fracas involving total strangers to whom he owes no duty. That's a stretch.
Second, say you're packing with your Sig-Sauer or whatever, and feeling pretty good about your personal safety. And maybe you even practice your marksmanship at the local range once per month, which is pretty good, given family commitments and all. Does that mean you're equipped to take on some totally unhinged psycho bent on mayhem and murder who's got a military style rifle and body armor?
And finally, although this may not mean anything to you rural types, I can guarantee you that more guns equals more death and serious injury, regardless of who's carrying, in high density urban areas. The more bullets flying, the more innocent bystanders are at risk in crowded settings. We have many reports of even trained peace officers emptying their magazines, oblivious of their shot count, in the frenzy of the moment, when their lives are on the line. Fear of indiscriminate discharges is what was originally behind the reluctance of most major police departments to switch from the revolver to the semi-auto pistol.
NGAREADER in reply to Dathurtz. | May 27, 2022 at 9:33 pm
Bingo. You can buy them all the fancy gear but you can't buy them the balls needed to use it.
They looked cool all geared up in the photo from 2020. Real badasses.
Colonel Travis | May 27, 2022 at 1:25 pm
Holy hell. I don't even know what to say about this. What a bunch of F-ing cowards.
Barry in reply to Colonel Travis. | May 27, 2022 at 3:05 pm
"What a bunch of F-ing cowards."
That needs to be driven home, over and over, that maybe future cops will ignore their fear.
henrybowman in reply to Barry. | May 27, 2022 at 11:21 pm
Didn't work in Broward County. And there it even rhymed, like a taunt.
Peabody in reply to Colonel Travis. | May 27, 2022 at 6:26 pm
If these cowards had been defending the Alamo, after the battle was over Texans would've said, "Forget the Alamo."
aramissebastian in reply to Colonel Travis. | May 28, 2022 at 4:59 pm
In a word, yes.
But . . .
I recall in WW2, we told our guys that the German MG-42, with its insanely high rate of fire, was more bark than bite . . .
Which wasn't true . . .
But we had to tell them something to keep their morale up . . .
Now imagine that there was a way to deprive Nazi troops of their automatic weapons . . .
Just sayin' . . .
UnCivilServant | May 27, 2022 at 1:30 pm
Start by firing the officer on the scene who made the decision not to breach the classroom. Then we can investigate his or her subordinate to see if they acted appropriately.
Antifundamentalist in reply to UnCivilServant. | May 27, 2022 at 2:22 pm
Yes fire him. Personally, I believe they should also should add deriliction of duty charges along with whatever other criminal charges they can find to throw at the officer would be the very least that should be done.
jb4 in reply to UnCivilServant. | May 27, 2022 at 5:09 pm
Also fire the teacher who, against protocol, propped the door open so the shooter could get in while going out for a cell phone..
Dathurtz in reply to jb4. | May 27, 2022 at 6:37 pm
Amen. Why was this done? Tired of using your key to open the door?
We have that kind of stuff repeated over and over and over. Be fun to FOIA that teacher's work emails and count how many times the issues of locking doors is mentioned. I bet it is a lot.
The minute the drooling moron's administration said they weren't going to demand an investigation you knew that the police ROYALLY fucked up, and that would take away from their idiotic demands for MAH GUN CONTROL.
Ironclaw in reply to Olinser. | May 27, 2022 at 3:22 pm
This was the outcome the pedophile-in-chief wanted. A pile of dead children's bodies to dance on while he calls for gun control.
Antifundamentalist | May 27, 2022 at 2:19 pm
I hate to say this, but there needs to be at least one (two would be better) armed rescource officer on campus from the time crossing guards arrive in the moring until the last crossing guard takes of their jacket at the end of the school day. And in the event of an armed intruder, if the officer does ANYTHING other than immediately responding to stop the intruder, then criminal charges should be forthcoming. Give them body armor. Give them hazard pay. Give them double insurance payout if they die in the line of duty…. This delayed reaction, or officers cowering in fear (Florida) needs to stop.
CommoChief in reply to Antifundamentalist. | May 27, 2022 at 5:03 pm
That's and some basics that any moron can do like locking the damn outer doors so some guy who's been just outside popping off rounds for several minutes can't stroll into the building.
Dathurtz in reply to CommoChief. | May 27, 2022 at 6:39 pm
So many things had to go wrong here. I guarantee that door is supposed to be locked. I guarantee some administrator has the explicit duty to ensure the door is closed and locked.
Ironclaw in reply to Dathurtz. | May 28, 2022 at 12:02 am
That person is probably the daytime custodian. However, a teacher did prop the door for some reason and I came across that frustration repeatedly when I worked in a public school. Teachers gimmicking the playground doors to make getting back in after recess easier.
Peabody | May 27, 2022 at 2:23 pm
Barricaded situation? He locked the damn door.
The police weren't able to get in because the door was locked. That's is the weaked excuse I have ever heard in my entire life.
If there was a barricade, how were they able to see it. They didn't. They made that up. And even if there had been a barricade it would've been tables and chairs which would've provided the police with cover.
The whole thing stinks.
User-Name | May 27, 2022 at 2:25 pm
I used to be more unquestionably on the side of the police.
I'm not sure what happened: I'm getting more cynical as I get older, there are now lots of videos available on YouTube about how police really treat people, hearing more things from friends and relatives etc.
When there are 3 armed cops stopping an unarmed 18-year-old man on the street out of boredom, they sure can be bullies. When an 18-year-old man starts shooting people, I guess not so much. It's that flip side thing: bullies are also cowards.
The Gentle Grizzly in reply to User-Name. | May 27, 2022 at 4:14 pm
It's not just against unarmed teens. I got a bunch of who are you what are you doing here in our town type stuff from cops more than once when I was still working. Rental car, a stranger, calmly eating a meal in "their" restaurant. It got old.
E Howard Hunt | May 27, 2022 at 2:36 pm
This was a Barricaded Subject situation you see. In other words- BS.
OldProf2 | May 27, 2022 at 2:52 pm
Ever since the Columbine tragedy (when the cops waited outside while students were being killed), police departments have changed their operating procedures for active shooter incidents.
The current policy of most police departments is that in active shooter incidents, officers do not need a supervisor's permission to move in. Officers are instructed to find and neutralize the shooter as soon as possible, with an aggressive approach that uses cover and concealment as much as possible.
Treating the Uvalde shooter as a "barricaded suspect" would only apply if you were sure there were no children or teachers in the room where the shooting was occurring. In this case, as at Columbine, additional innocents were being shot and killed. That warrants a full-scale Rambo attack on the shooter.
Barry | May 27, 2022 at 3:09 pm
Sickening.
These cops make me sick. They had a chance to save the lives of some number of children and instead they sat outside stopping the parents of the children from doing their job.
Every one should be fired. No loss except maybe the parking ticket revenue.
Think about how many lives could have been saved if the officers at the scene had done the right thing.
It's not only about killing the shooter. It is also about providing medical assistance to the victims. For all we know, they let the poor kids bleed to death.
Dathurtz in reply to Exiliado. | May 27, 2022 at 3:33 pm
I was thinking the same. Waiting so long assured the wounded were dead, if there were wounded.
The entire situation is an example of what not to do.
jb4 in reply to Exiliado. | May 27, 2022 at 5:13 pm
It has been reported that one girl did bleed out, but still had heart beat after the hour delay.
Ironclaw | May 27, 2022 at 3:20 pm
Wow, NO SH*T SHERLOCK. Every single parent in that school should sue the police department for this.
The Gentle Grizzly in reply to Ironclaw. | May 27, 2022 at 3:34 pm
Even more: point them out in public and subject them to ridicule.
natdj | May 27, 2022 at 4:32 pm
We are seeing a pattern here with many Police Departments. I remember when PULSE occurred (I live in Central Florida) the Orlando Police and Orange County Sheriff's Deputies stayed out and waited. This has always bothered me. Then Parkland. BSO waited, but Coral Springs wanted to go in. Now we see this waiting by the police in Texas. Makes me realize that we truly have to protect ourselves and not depend on Law Enforcement. It also comes across my mind that any of us no longer wait on those who swore to serve and protect us because three won't serve and protect us.
The Gentle Grizzly in reply to natdj. | May 27, 2022 at 6:28 pm
Law Enfsrcement will be right there to bust YOU don't r "taking the law into your own hands". Guaranteed!
Ironclaw in reply to The Gentle Grizzly. | May 28, 2022 at 12:04 am
They'll be happy to draw a chalk outline around your dead body.
Peabody in reply to Ironclaw. | May 28, 2022 at 12:13 pm
And take professional pictures.
CommoChief | May 27, 2022 at 5:12 pm
LEO response was a travesty. It is inexcusable to have made the call not to confront and stop the shooter in the wake of Columbine and Parkland and the adjustment to tactics to demand that. Even worse that's supposed to be the policy in TX.
Lots of blame to around. It was a cascade of errors. How about lock the damn outer doors and the classroom doors for starters? The classroom door was apparently too big an obstacle for LEO to overcome for an hour when the shooter was behind it……
jb4 in reply to CommoChief. | May 27, 2022 at 5:15 pm
As noted earlier, it has been reported that the doors were locked, but the shooter got in because one was left propped open by a teacher who went out for a cell phone.
CommoChief in reply to jb4. | May 27, 2022 at 5:34 pm
The outer door wasn't even shut much less locked, it was propped open. Turning the dead bolt on your front door when it's propped open doesn't engage the locking mechanism to prevent entry. The interior and classroom doors seem to have been unlocked as well.
Who hears shots for 12 minutes and wanders out to talk on the phone?
zennyfan in reply to Dathurtz. | May 27, 2022 at 10:22 pm
What school administrators hear gunshots for 12 minutes and don't have their teachers lock down their classrooms, let alone the outside doors? What cops under fire (maybe) outside a school, don't warn the school? What 911 system, which received calls about the gunfire at the school, doesn't warn the school? Nothing about any of this makes sense.
RandomCrank in reply to Dathurtz. | May 28, 2022 at 4:01 pm
Obviously the teacher didn't hear shots. Not sure if the teacher went out to talk on the phone, by the way.
RandomCrank | May 27, 2022 at 5:32 pm
It sure as hell looks bad — really, really bad — but I want to wait for the full story. There are still contradictory accounts.
By the way, it's easy to secure classroom doors to prevent entry from the hallways. Such a device was invented 4 years ago by a kid in his high school shop class, and installed in some Wisconsin schools. There are many other similar devices.
Much easier to do nothing than to spend $50 per door, including labor, and probably less.
CommoChief in reply to RandomCrank. | May 27, 2022 at 5:38 pm
Whatever sort of mechanism was installed on the classroom doors was able to prevent LEO from entering for an hour. The shooter engaged whatever sort of lock was installed. No barricade just a lock; LEO eventually asked the janitor for his key…..
RandomCrank in reply to CommoChief. | May 27, 2022 at 7:09 pm
Obviously a false sense of security. I live in a rural county and can imagine the same here. Once things calm down, I plan to have a chat with some school officials. The idea that those LEOs had to wait for a janitor with a key would be laughable if the consequences weren't so severe.
Dathurtz in reply to RandomCrank. | May 27, 2022 at 7:39 pm
If the school has redone the locks in the last couple of decades, then several keys open classroom doors. Counting me, there are 8 people that can unlock my classroom.
RandomCrank in reply to RandomCrank. | May 27, 2022 at 5:53 pm
This is the best account I've seen so far. Looks damning as hell.
https://thetexan.news/the-latest-timeline-of-the-uvalde-shooting-per-the-texas-department-of-public-safety/
ray | May 27, 2022 at 5:44 pm
These officers need to be charged and prosecuted as accomplices to murder.
texansamurai | May 27, 2022 at 6:07 pm
no one on scene could know what was in ramos' mind (and neither could we)–whether he decided to start shooting kids immediately or took his time doing it–they may have all been shot/wounded within two or three minutes–to say that a swifter response would have reduced the casualties is rather speculative based on what we know at the moment– without knowing the shooter's location in the building, letting a bunch of unarmed folks loose inside as well could be a rather lethal melee of hide-and-seek–not saying in agreement with waiting 40 minutes to enter but the on-scene commander must have had a damned good reason to determine it was a "barricaded subject" situation
in the end, ramos is the reason those kids are dead–not anyone else
CommoChief in reply to texansamurai. | May 27, 2022 at 6:25 pm
Disagree. The tactical response doctrine post Columbine and Parkland is to form stacks and confront, shoot, kill, neutralize the shooter. It isn't only about whether the shooter has stopped firing its also about getting the wounded to medical care ASAP.
This was a bad decision on the part of the Uvalde ISD Chief, reported to be the incident tactical CDR. It clearly violated the spirit and letter of the doctrine. It not Monday morning QB to look at the limited info/ AAR and call out clear errors.
I can't express how enraged I am over this failure. Lots of people rightly question the deviation from doctrine. The LEO community would be wise to refuse to form a thin blue line in this case. We know the job is hard. Those of us who want to support LEO and ensure funding and training will also demand accountability for errors.
zennyfan in reply to CommoChief. | May 27, 2022 at 10:30 pm
Texas requires school police departments to conduct active-shooter drills. Those drills don't include standing idly by as a man with a rifle fires off shots in a classroom full of little kids.
alaskabob in reply to zennyfan. | May 27, 2022 at 10:34 pm
The man who died of that heart attack . whose wife was killed in the attack.. participated in an active shooter drill …at that school a month ago. That school was effectively "cased" a month ago shall we say.
Now this from Glenn Beck,, As for Buffalo… Glenn Beck discussed that the FBI now knows that in a chat room that the Buffalo shooter discussed his plans and the target and one of the persons in the chat room was possibly a retired Federal Agent (from Texas). This was ongoing up until 30 minutes prior to the attack. No one in that chat called authorities.
Was the Texas shooter recruited? The sad joke is that conspiracies are now spoiler alerts.alerts.
AnAdultInDiapers in reply to texansamurai. | May 27, 2022 at 6:38 pm
Yeah, it's premature to be condemning the police.
If they charge in shooting, they could shoot the children themselves, they could be shot, the perpetrator could end up with more weapons/ammunition, they could agitate the perpetrator into shooting hostages he'd hoped to use to negotiate closure to the situation, they could force him to flee from an empty room in which case he might enter one full of children.
If they don't charge in shooting, well, see above. Who'd want to be a police officer.
CommoChief in reply to AnAdultInDiapers. | May 27, 2022 at 8:32 pm
No it isn't. The same criticism many of us have leveled the last two days regarding a failure to immediately confront and kill or neutralize the shooter was taken up by the Director of Texas Dept of Public Safety.
Many others as well. This isn't new. In fact the State of Texas adopted that. Form stacks, enter, confront and kill/neutralize the shooter. Keep doing it until he is dead or neutralized.
Being a LEO is a hard job. My grandfather, father and uncle were LEO. I want to support LEO but I also demand accountability for errors. Especially when their failure to follow training results in a delayed medical response for wounded kids at a minimum. Whether additional kids were shot during the delay has not been established yet.
Dathurtz in reply to texansamurai. | May 27, 2022 at 6:42 pm
His damn good reason was the yellow streak running down his belly and pants leg.
Juris Doctor | May 27, 2022 at 6:14 pm
Sure are a lot of Monday morning quarterbacks with zero relevant law enforcement or tactical training operating off of assumption and incomplete information. #Uvalde #sityoursillyassesdown
CommoChief in reply to Juris Doctor. | May 27, 2022 at 6:31 pm
Locking the outer door and keeping it locked to prevent intrusions seems prudent. Wait that is policy. Failure.
Locking interior and classroom doors to prevent easy access to children by a murderer seems prudent as well. Also policy. Another failure.
LEO immediately forming and engaging the shooter to stop him by killing or neutralizing him seems prudent. Also policy. Another failure
Those are facts not assumptions. Peddle your BS somewhere else.
It probably isn't so much a policy failure as a failure to implement the policy.
alaskabob in reply to Juris Doctor. | May 27, 2022 at 6:46 pm
Ah… I'll call you out on that. The DPS has already stated this was mishandled horribly. As for tactical training…. I'll call you out on that also.
Subotai Bahadur in reply to Juris Doctor. | May 27, 2022 at 11:30 pm
While I retired a decade and a half ago, I spent 28 years as a Commissioned Peace Officer of the State of Colorado. I was wearing a badge when Columbine High School happened, here in Colorado. One of my daughters was at a state forensics competition with her school's team when they came in and pulled out the Columbine High School team from the competition when they got word of the shootings, Which made it somehow feel more personal, even though we lived across the state.
I know the pre-Columbine doctrine involving hostage negotiation, and the post-Columbine doctrine of basically finding a partner, notifying dispatch, and entering immediately to engage the threat. The idea is that the shooter should be busy worrying about how he is about to be taken out so that he does not have time to take out children and teachers. And by the way, while I was not on a SWAT Team, I was trained and current on M-16 [not AR-15], 12 gauge, scoped 30-06 [it was a while ago], and in passing what was functionally an M-79 grenade launcher; so that I could help fill in if SWAT could not get there.
I think that counts as relevant experience. From what is known and admitted, especially the delay that cost the lives of a lot of innocent people; the LEO's at that school F'ed up badly. I cannot say with the descriptive detail I would like to because it would not be permitted. I will say that those same LEO's need to get out of that town permanently ASAP because there are surely a whole lot of people who will not forgive. I myself lost a son to disease. If I had lost him to murder . . .
Subotai Bahadur
RandomCrank in reply to Subotai Bahadur. | May 28, 2022 at 4:05 pm
I am very, very interested in knowing why the police chief ordered the officers to stay outside. It's so thoroughly bizarre that I'm immobilized in a way, wondering: WTF? Why?!
The Gentle Grizzly | May 27, 2022 at 6:32 pm
Here in my area, we have a bagel and pastry shop but it is owned by a retired law-enforcement officer. His father hangs around the shop; he is also a retired law-enforcement officer. I used to go in there, and the conversations were interesting. I won't step foot in the place now, because I'm bound to say something that will end up causing some controversy.
That, and, there are too many active LEOs hanging around the place, so I'll just give it a miss. I'm not looking for trouble.
commo chief
where was the "resource officer?"–was he armed?–what the hell did HE do about the situation?–all the locked exterior doors, classroom doors, etc. are passive deterrents–the "resource officer" is supposed to be an ACTIVE deterrent–where was he?–once the shooter's inside, the entire dynamic changes–everybody shifts to "seek and destroy(neutralize)"–some reports say the police DID engage the shooter and two of the officers were wounded in the exchange–what happened then?–ramos could shoot for sure–he damn near dropped the bp guy with a headshot(maybe 2 or 3 inches off)
so much conflicting information about the whole situation, difficult to understand what orders were given/carried out–little to no focus, coordination, direction until the bp guys arrived–at least their part went by the book–corto y derecho
No officer was present to prevent entry. He was off campus so the active component was negated. Guy was outside for to-12 minutes popping off rounds before he went into the school.
The outer door was left open. Guy just strolled in…right into a classroom because the interior doors weren't locked either. A lock on the classroom door mind you that the shooter employed and defeated LEO for an hour.
Three Uvalde LEO then three more Uvalde LEO plus a deputy entered AFTER the guy started shooting. Retreated under fire and 'grazing' wounds to two LEO. At one point 19 LEO in hallway; no action. No further attempts to engage and kill or neutralize shooter for roughly 48-50 minutes.
So in sum they let the wounded bleed out at a minimum. Additional fire during this time but unclear if any addition students shot. Bad call. People are flipping enraged. Rightly so. Utter failure. No way some of the wounded couldn't have made it with immediate care.
alaskabob in reply to CommoChief. | May 27, 2022 at 10:48 pm
The cops know that eventually all bleeding stops. Makes documentation of the crime easier…fewer interviews.
As you may remember from the Montreal Polytech shooting, the murderer let the "boys" leave the room… he killed the women … and then walked past the men waiting in the hall. 19 cops waited in the hall at the school… history repeats itself in a way. Outside, the Federal Marshals, fully decked out in the latest tac-ti-cool gear, were ready to taser any parent that interfered with the police from standing around doing nothing.
Tom Orrow | May 27, 2022 at 11:14 pm
Where did the shooter get the money for the guns etc? The atrocity happened a few days before the NRA convention in Texas. Coincidence or something more sinister?
txvet2 in reply to Tom Orrow. | May 29, 2022 at 2:06 am
Another unanswered question: Why did a teacher prop open the (usually locked) door, while the shooter was still outside?
henrybowman | May 27, 2022 at 11:26 pm
Cruz was reported to the FBI before Parkland.
FBI said "meh."
Fuckem.
The Laird of Hilltucky | May 28, 2022 at 1:18 am
How does a federal marshal have any authority to handcuff or interfere with any citizen in this situation? If a fed did handcuff anyone, he (or she) should be sued.
Ronbert | May 28, 2022 at 10:14 am
I have not seen an answer to "where did the shooter get the money to buy the AR-15 s and a car"?