Great Western Coffee Shop
Sideshoots - associated subjects => Campaigns for new and improved services => Topic started by: Andy on April 04, 2008, 11:25:02 am
Title: Okehampton-Tavistock. Discussion on reopening and potential use as a diversionary route
Post by: Andy on April 04, 2008, 11:25:02 am
The following link is to an article suggesting that the Okehampton service may be at risk.
http://www.thisisdevon.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=141529&command=displayContent&sourceNode=141513&contentPK=20305597&moduleName=InternalSearch&formname=sidebarsearch
(topic now linked to calendar - Lee Fletcher.)
Title: Re: Okehampton-Tavistock. Discussion on reopening and potential use as a diversionary route
Post by: Lee on April 04, 2008, 11:56:24 am
Quote from: Andy on April 04, 2008, 11:25:02 am
Article quote :
Quote from: David (not Derek, one would assume ) Redgewell (Campaign for Better Transport)
Derek Redgwell, of Devon's Campaign for Better Transport, said he was anxious about what any review of ECT's business would mean for the Dartmoor line and, in particular, the summer Sunday service from Exeter and Exmouth to Okehampton.
He said: "I believe ECT believe the Government is keen to keep smaller lines within the main franchises rather than have micro-franchises but we believe there is still a role for ECT here."
Quote from the franchise specification :
Quote from: DfT Greater Western Franchise specification
H6 EXETER CENTRAL - CREDITON
1 Route Definition
(a) Services shall be provided between Exeter Central and Crediton calling at Exeter St Davids. Services may continue to or start from Okehampton as specified by Devon County Council.
(b) The service is dependent on funding from Devon County Council. If this is stopped the service shall be discontinued
2 Frequency
Sundays (Summer only)
Between 0830 and 2030, five services shall be provided at two-hourly intervals. One interval may be extended to 2 hours 30 minutes.
I think we need to hear from DCC on this.
By the way, if there is a Derek Redgwell out there, please accept my apologies, and do feel free to sign up to the forum and give us your view....
Post by: RichardB on April 04, 2008, 12:39:11 pm
I can help here Lee - the Sunday Okehampton service will definitely run this year, funded by Devon County Council, but the hope for next year and beyond is/was that the second platform at Yeoford would be brought back into use and a Dartmoor Railway service run to connect with Exeter - Barnstaple FGW trains there.
We will have to see what happens now with the sale of ECT Rail.
Post by: Lee on April 04, 2008, 12:45:10 pm
Quote from: RichardB on April 04, 2008, 12:39:11 pm
Thanks Richard. Would the Yeoford-Okehampton service be year-round, and if not, are there any plans for such a service?
Post by: gaf71 on April 04, 2008, 01:36:20 pm
Quote from: Lee Fletcher on April 04, 2008, 12:45:10 pm
I think that was the original plan, but an additional problem is that the summer sunday services are run with units and traincrew provided by First( at some cost I would imagine), and I'm not sure that the Dartmoor Railway would have sufficient stock, or staff to run a full service, though I am only speculating, and don't know staffing and stock levels for them!
Post by: Btline on April 04, 2008, 06:12:10 pm
This is dreadful.
How can they talk about shutting a line in this day and age?
How can they talk about shutting this line when it is halfway to solving the sea wall debate.
The line should be extended, not axed!
I'm not happy. >:(
Post by: Andy on April 09, 2008, 02:57:52 pm
Further news and views regarding the situation of the Okehampton line:
.........and another letter arguing for the reinstatement of a second London route from Plymouth via Okehampton.
http://www.thisiscornwall.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=144143&command=displayContent&sourceNode=144131&contentPK=20350865&moduleName=InternalSearch&formname=sidebarsearch
Post by: Tinminer on April 09, 2008, 06:23:35 pm
Quote from: Andy on April 09, 2008, 02:57:52 pm
I have added my comments to this one.
Well ECT has pulled the plug on the Dartmoor Railway today.
Alas, it is no more! :(
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/7354165.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/7354165.stm)
A sad day for SW railways.
Also noticed that Dartmoor Railway's website diverts you to ATOC's website!
The Friends of Dartmoor Railway' site has yet to be updated with the news.
I think the suddenness of this has taken everyone by surprise.
Let us hope that someone steps in quickly so that the summer doesn't go by with no operations. Waterloo-Okehampton anyone?
A sad day indeed. ECT's move does mean that the Sunday trains are now in jeopardy. I know urgent discussions are taking place to see if they can still run.
Video link here too:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/newsid_7350000/newsid_7354800/7354854.stm?bw=bb&mp=wm&news=1&bbcws=1 (http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/newsid_7350000/newsid_7354800/7354854.stm?bw=bb&mp=wm&news=1&bbcws=1)
Lets hope that Devon CC and FGW can come to some arrangement regarding Summer Sunday services, but, of course, there would be no station facilities available (cafe, ticket counter) etc.
Does anyone know if any of the other local heritage lines (e.g. West Somerset or Bodmin & Wenford) are interested in running the line?
Post by: devon_metro on April 18, 2008, 04:46:44 pm
A real shame, I've done the line once and it was very good, despite being very short!
I'm sure Jim will testify that they do a very good breakfast in that caf^!
Thanks for that, Richard. Quote from the BBC article :
Quote from: BBC article
It said that it was confident that the railway, which had more than 20,000 visitors last year, had a "great future".
It said: "We already have a number of parties interested in taking on the challenge and opportunity."
Do you have any idea who these parties might be? I know Tinminer has raised the possibility of a heritage organisation taking over.
I think that it would be ludicrous to lose this line, just as its potential future usefulness is being recognised (link below.)
http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=2421.msg18087#msg18087
Quote from: Tinminer on April 18, 2008, 04:35:11 pm
Believe there will be no plans for the summer sunday services. Many people then went on up to Meldon to walk across the viaduct.
When is a regular service from Oakhampton to Exeter (and preferable beyond) going to start?
It needs to
Post by: Jim on April 18, 2008, 11:05:36 pm
Quote from: devon_metro on April 18, 2008, 04:46:44 pm
Post by: vacman on April 19, 2008, 01:15:22 am
Quote from: Jim on April 18, 2008, 11:05:36 pm
It was a great buffet! FGW could get some good PR now by running the summer service of their own back!
Post by: devon_metro on April 19, 2008, 10:55:58 am
Donkey to Okehampton anybody ;)
Post by: qwerty on April 19, 2008, 03:18:33 pm
Quote from: Btline on April 18, 2008, 06:48:32 pm
My heart would love a regular Okehampton to Exeter service, but my head says it would be like tearing up tenners.
The station is poorly sited for the town at the top of a very steep hill (Yes I know it couldnt be anywhere else).
The A30 dual carriageway is a fast route to Exeter and beyond in about half the time it would take by rail. Sadly.
The only hope of a reopening would be as part of a through route. There is a logic to the inland route if electrification was to happen. Government policy is starting to shift that way again.
I've got 20 years till retirement but I dont think I'll see it in my working lifetime.
The problem with having a service to Plymouth via Oakhampton, would be that trains would have to reverse. :(
Post by: vacman on April 19, 2008, 05:32:31 pm
I think people would use the Okehampton line for commuting etc, the Okehampton line is actually quite fast (line speed 60mph), lets not forget people going to college in Okehampton, and with a free bus link to the town.......... it could be done if the trains were extensions of some Exmouth and Waterloo services thus keeping cost's down.
Quote from: vacman on April 19, 2008, 05:32:31 pm
There are also some very long sections of 40 mph.
Quote from: qwerty on April 20, 2008, 04:33:09 pm
Those sections need eliminating!
I believe that those sections only apply to Loco's? units are near 60 all the way??
Post by: station road oke on April 20, 2008, 08:52:09 pm
Hi, I know little about railways but live very close to Dartmoor Railway and have very little info! Does anyone know how all this works? Who actually owns the track? Bardon Aggregates are still running over it so it must be maintained ( certified safe)? It did provide very usefull facilities for the Granite Way (cycle route) such as bike hire, parking and buffet. Even being closed a couple of days has made a difference. Trust me Oke needs all the good input it can get, so regardless of a commuter line strategy, as a tourist attraction it should be open. As lately as last week they were advertising for buffet staff!! Work that one out. To be fair it did state " 'till the end of April in the short term". I can't find out who the interested parties are or how much they want for what exactly.
Any input gratefully received.
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on April 20, 2008, 09:39:54 pm
Hi, Marc, and welcome to this forum!
I'm a fan of Okehampton, too - but I agree, things don't look too promising, in the short term?
Can anyone help us with more information on this one?
Post by: oooooo on April 20, 2008, 09:44:16 pm
The line from Coleford divergence (where it leaves the Barny branch) is indeed owned by the quarry company, was CAMAS, now Bardon? They are responsible for the maintenance I believe....
There is a meeting to discuss the future of the Dartmoor Railway tomorrow night:
Friends & Volunteers meeting, Tuesday April 22nd
There will be a meeting for volunteers and friends on Tuesday April 22nd at 7.30 pm at Fairplace Church, Okehampton (opposite the Post Office) to explore possible ways forward.
Post by: smokey on April 21, 2008, 03:20:16 pm
And with almost EVERY thing running therse days being Units thats not a problem, by the time the passengers have left or entered the train, the driver has already walked to the other end.
The only service that needs the loco to run round is the Sleeper train, and there is plenty of slack in the Night Train times.
Post by: Conner on April 21, 2008, 04:04:08 pm
Quote from: smokey on April 21, 2008, 03:20:16 pm
And where exactly does under normal operations the sleeper reverse.
Ans at the Paddington another 57 is put on the other end and at Penzance it backs into Long Rock.
Quote from: Conner on April 21, 2008, 04:04:08 pm
Conner you misunderstand, it's only IF and it's a Bl**dy BIG IF, that if the Sleeper went via a rebuilt Okehampton-Bere Alston line it would require the Engine to Run Round at Plymouth and Exeter St David's.
Fraid not.... For my sins I do sign Okehampton, for a start it's 40 all the way from Crediton to Mill Hill bridge just past Coleford thats 5 miles.
Then 60 for a couple of miles, then 40 for another couple of miles around Bow, back to 60 until Corscombe then 40 all the way to Okehampton. Those are the unit speeds between Bow and corscombe it's 40 all the way for loco's
It's 17 miles from Crediton to Okehampton I reckon 10 of them (for units) are 40 mph.
I should say that this is the current set-up **IF** the will was there you could raise those line speeds, this was the SW main line after all.
Anyone know what the linespeeds were in steam days?
I was half right then- that there are different speeds for DMU's and locos ;) I believe the line was quite fast in kettle days???
Interesting Transport Briefing article link.
http://www.rmtbristol.org.uk/2008/04/dartmoor_rail_line_shuts_as_tr.html#more
Quote from: Transport Briefing
According to the Friends of Dartmoor Railway two prospective purchasers have been going through a due diligence process.
Also of interest :
Although the Dartmoor Railway is not part of the National Rail network and provides a heritage service to its three stations, it has provided an insight into alternative funding and operational approaches to running lines serving local communities. The Dartmoor line has its own team of engineers and proposals to restore through services to Plymouth via Tavistock have suggested that the Dartmoor Railway, rather than Network Rail, should be responsible for infrastructure north of St Budeaux in order to keep costs down. Transport Scotland is reportedly considering a similar arrangement to minimise costs for the Waverley line reopening project in the Scottish Borders.
Earlier this month E&HCT- a joint venture between ECT and another social enterprise, HCT - won a four-year contract from the Olympic Delivery Authority to provide drivers, buses, vehicle maintenance, route planning and timetabling to support the increasing number of workers employed on the 2012 Games sites in east London.
Post by: Andy on May 13, 2008, 05:54:29 pm
Assurance that the Summer Sunday service to Okehampton will run this year is contained in the article below.
Post by: devon_metro on May 13, 2008, 06:01:29 pm
Excellent!!
Pacer to Okehampton on the list :P
Post by: Graz on May 13, 2008, 08:12:19 pm
I must try and travel down there this year. Presumably you have to buy a return from Exeter St Davids as part of the Sunday Rover?
Post by: vacman on May 13, 2008, 09:24:01 pm
Quote from: Graz on May 13, 2008, 08:12:19 pm
The Dartmoor rover is the only ticket valid on the Oke services
Post by: gaf71 on May 14, 2008, 01:29:29 pm
Quote from: vacman on May 13, 2008, 09:24:01 pm
When I've worked these trains in previous years, Dartmoor Railway have always provided a ticket inspector, and FGW crew just work doors(and drive). Not sure what tickets are sold, but if a passenger joins at Crediton on the return journey to Exeter, I have to sell him a ticket, and also, if a passenger is travelling Exeter to Crediton, the same applies. So i would presume that because this section of line(as far as coleford junction) is maintained by Network Rail, Dartmoor Railway could not take any revenue for that part of journey.
p.s. It's great news that these services are still running this year. :)
Post by: oooooo on May 14, 2008, 07:17:50 pm
For the first time point to point tickets will be available this year from *most* Devon stations to Sampford Coutenay and Okehampton in additional to the Sunday Rover.
Good, Dartmoor Ranger was priced expensivly!
Other rover tickets, Freedom of South West, All Line etc will be valid to OKE (and SMC) for the first time this year along with ATOC staff passes. Think a CDR from EXD to OKE is ^4.50 rising to ^7.50 from PGN/TOT. The CDRs to OKE/SMC are only available from stations on the Barnstaple/Exmouth/Paignton lines and Totnes.
Bargain!
Post by: signalandtelegraph on May 17, 2008, 08:24:46 am
Quote from: oooooo on May 16, 2008, 04:08:04 pm
Not according to the ATOC website, unless you know differently? :(
Post by: swlines on May 17, 2008, 12:08:54 pm
Since when was ATOC RST correct?
Its all we've got to go on?
Truuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuue. ;D
Better asking on the ground, though!
Post by: devonian on May 21, 2008, 09:35:28 am
Any ideas why Okehampton line doesn't appear on the county council website for the Dartmoor Rover?
http://www.devon.gov.uk/index/transport/public_transport/buses/services-4/sunday-rover.htm (http://www.devon.gov.uk/index/transport/public_transport/buses/services-4/sunday-rover.htm)
Although according to DCC, Wessex still exist and operate so.....
Post by: devon_metro on May 21, 2008, 09:45:00 am
Timetable is online on FGW website. Wonder if a 142 will be utlised...
Cool - good to see. So, is Dartmoor Rover valid on Okey services? Or do you need a seperate ticket to get to Okehampton by train and then Rover on top of that?
Post by: RichardB on May 21, 2008, 02:59:38 pm
Quote from: devonian on May 21, 2008, 10:48:17 am
Dartmoor Sunday Rover is valid on Okehampton trains. Also this year, the Devon Day Ranger and Freedon of Devon and Cornwall railrover (and for that matter the All Line one) can all be used on Okehampton trains.
There will be normal Cheap Day Single and Cheap Day Return fares to/from Okehampton from stations in an area bounded by Totnes, Exmouth, Paignton and Barnstaple.
I'd love to see this on Saturdays too - the early morning train service on Sundays from Paignton is useless.
Everything suggests 142s to Okehampton.
Bounceeee!
Post by: Jim on May 21, 2008, 07:24:35 pm
Quote from: RichardB on May 21, 2008, 02:59:38 pm
What about Freedom of South West?
Quote from: Jim on May 21, 2008, 07:24:35 pm
Yes, that too.
Thanks for your help :D
Post by: Btline on May 22, 2008, 06:55:27 pm
So, it certainly looks like all worries have gone.
Perhaps this thread should be called NO Worries about...
Statt Travel IS valid on OKE services ;D
About time!
Post by: devonian on May 22, 2008, 10:25:03 pm
All good news!
Will be supporting it for sure :)
Post by: signalandtelegraph on May 22, 2008, 10:30:24 pm
Presumably beacuse its effectively an FGW service not sponsored by the council? ATOC website still says services are barred? :-\
Thats the link for the winter rover ;)
Post by: qwerty on May 26, 2008, 10:57:08 am
One of the EXD conductors reckoned to have taken over 400 quid on the Okehampton yesterday.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Interesting to hear of yesterday's takings.
The service is still chartered by Devon County Council but, given the changes at Dartmoor Railway, they are paying a bit less this year with FGW collecting and keeping the ticket revenue.
Fingers crossed this proves to be a sustainable way forward for the future but everything will depend on Dartmoor Railway's new owners, whoever they may be.
I think the excellent thing this year is that normal tickets are valid.
Post by: 6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01 on July 24, 2008, 11:42:54 am
hi, im new to this site so go easy on me but it seems to me that the okehampton line is not only an important tool for improving the southwests rail network (alternative to plymouth and also provide better public transport to okehampton a growing town,would also increase the frequency of trains to crediton if a regular service was introduced).
but it would also i belive prove to be a great investment for normal people if this became there line granted at the start it would be a slow hog and the first chalenge would just be getting trains running again, but if 2000 locals and railways enfusiasts invested ^10 each just to be a part of it then thats ^20000,now thats not going to get the line doubled or rebuilt to tavistock and its not going to buy a brand new state of the art dmu,but it would get us a start and i belive if we all work together we can do this (even if it starts with class 142's!)
how much is the line going to be worth if it becomes the secondary route into cornwall?
how much is the line going to be worth if we get 50% of the people who live in credition and okehampton who go by bus to use the link insted
lets not forget the 20000 who vistited the line last year
i would be willing to invest a tenner....1999 voulenteers please......oh and some people with brains to run it lol unfortunatly thats not me
Post by: Lee on July 24, 2008, 12:32:51 pm
Welcome to the forum, relex109
thankyou, i will try and put more effort into my spelling on future posts
i dont see any voulenteers for my plan
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on July 29, 2008, 12:40:51 am
Hi, relex109!
Please don't be downhearted over the lack of replies so far. It may be that our members are just not quite clear about your specific objectives here?
The link from Crediton to Okehampton I can see could be viable, and you have my best wishes for that! Do you have any figures for possible passenger flows?
I'm also interested in your suggestion about doubling, and even restoring the connection to Tavistock, but I'm sorry, I can't see that as viable. It's hard enough for those who are already campaigning for the extension from Gunnislake to Tavistock - which is apparently beset by political, as well as financial, obstacles?
To be honest, relex109, I'd be delighted to volunteer you my ^10 - but I'd like to know a bit more about what you are proposing to do with it?
Post by: Super Guard on July 29, 2008, 12:44:37 am
I have been impressed with the loads i've seen so far for St. James--Okehampton on Sundays.
Post by: gaf71 on July 29, 2008, 04:46:24 am
Quote from: SDA on July 29, 2008, 12:44:37 am
I agree, I've worked the first Okehampton service on a couple of sundays this summer, and taken ^300-^400 each time. Thats not bad considering there are no facilities at OKE station at the moment.
Post by: 6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01 on July 29, 2008, 12:27:24 pm
basically a realy alternative to the car, to be fair while the guards statement about the number of passengers on sunday was impressive it is not unusual for a one off or once a week (5 runs on a sunday in this case) to attract attension however with the councls backing this clearly shows that this could be a tourism route... also if the dartmoor railway was reistablished there were 20000 vistitors last year, increacing the capacity as far to crediton would in its self generate revinue,okehampton is expanding and needs better public transport and im sorry but in some areas blocking the road with a bus does not work.
in the long term would extending to tavi be viable well to be honest i havnt researched that far and just getting sevices running again would be in its self a big job, so for now i think the target should be okehampton
Post by: 6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01 on August 11, 2008, 10:24:04 pm
ok just out of interest can anyone tell me if a buyer has been found?
if not an open access company with public shares is the way forward
Post by: The SprinterMeister on August 13, 2008, 10:11:28 pm
Quote from: relex109 on August 11, 2008, 10:24:04 pm
Last I heard (some time ago) was that there were two potential buyers waiting in the wings, undergoing due diligence checks. Remember that Dartmoor Railway is only the operating company, the Quarry company own the railway line to Coleford Jn and Devon County Council I think own Okehampton station. Not sure who paid for the stations at Meldon Quarry and Sampford Courtenay to be honest.
Post by: 6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01 on August 15, 2008, 01:48:20 am
well put it this was if 50 people on here think its worth setting up a public limited company i will go for it...thats if a buyer hasnt been found
Post by: oooooo on August 18, 2008, 03:01:37 am
(link below)
it just says link below?
Post by: grahame on August 18, 2008, 05:53:41 pm
Yes, I didn't understand that either ... I had to delete a lot of other posts during last night, including links to inappropriate sites and personal attacks on other members, but let this one stay (unaltered) as I saw nothing offensive in it. I guess a link was missing, and I can only imagine what it would have contained!
i was hoping it was a link to how to reopen the dartmoor railway
Post by: swlines on August 23, 2008, 03:59:03 pm
Quote from: grahame on August 18, 2008, 05:53:41 pm
Just noticed this .... I believe it was aimed to be a pisstake as opposed to posting a dodgy link. ;)
Quote from: swlines on August 23, 2008, 03:59:03 pm
... I had to delete a lot of other posts during last night, including links to inappropriate sites and personal attacks on other members ...
I don't know what the intent on this particular thread was, Tom (do you?). I do know that I spent a fair time on Monday morning deleting posts that including personal attacks and also links to sites selling sexual services, but I tried to be as low key as practical in my moderation and l left about a third of the posts to give people something of an idea of what had been sprayed at us. Some of those remaining posts could be classified using the term you chose.
In hindsight, leaving some posts up may not have been an ideal decision. It has clearly lead you, and perhaps others, to incorrectly assume that the spray attack was of a far less serious nature than actually happened.
Let's get back on topic should we - Okehampton. I've been away for the last week and have somewhat lost track of the latest twist. Can someone follow up to fill us in please?
I saw what was posted before you deleted it all, Graham. I'm simply taking a neutral view on it.
There was no intention for the post ... just as a generally annoying thing to wind up the moderators! You see, I know stuff. ;)
I'm not sure how you can be so certain you saw all of the posts, Tom, and how you can be fully aware of the intention of each of them. Perhaps you had better explain further.
see.... kind of gone off the subject yet again...
Post by: swlines on August 24, 2008, 12:00:10 am
You have a PM (that you haven't replied to).
Post by: grahame on August 24, 2008, 05:38:35 am
Quote from: swlines on August 24, 2008, 12:00:10 am
I'm just up. I can confirm that your personal message is with me, Tom, and will be fully considered. Either you'll get a single answer in return, or a "holding" message followed by a more considered answer if it's turning out to take longer than I anticipate to look at the issues you raise and points you make in quite a long piece of text.
From Wikipedia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dartmoor_Railway under their free documentation license (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Text_of_the_GNU_Free_Documentation_License) - page dated 29th July, so I'm sure there are some useful additions ... I'm offering this as a starter to get us back towards the right tracks for this thread.
Dartmoor Railway closed on 18th April 2008, as the operating company, ECT, decided to pull out of railways. The passenger and maintenance operations of the railway have now been put up for sale. Freight operations over the line continue however, as the route itself is owned by Aggregate Industries who maintain a railway ballast quarry at the head of the line.
The railway was unusual amongst heritage lines, as a public service is operated from Exeter to Okehampton during the Summer, by First Great Western. The line also has an as required freight service that carrying ballast from the quarry at Meldon onto the main line.
Devon County Council are running the Sunday Explorer trains between Exeter & Okehampton, every Sunday from 25th May to 21st September, during 2008. The five return trains will be run by First Great Western on behalf of the Council, according to the Council's website, and there may also be some basic facilities at Okehampton station, run by the Friends of Dartmoor Railway.
See also http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/Content.aspx?id=2569 for FGW's page on the subject of their summer trains on the lines, including fare options which I know I have already seen discussed on The Coffee Shop
if anyones interested i was at okehampton today and took some photos and did a bit of video...sorry if the quality aint great also has the run down to dawlish... link below
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=JYPF6pysQPg
Looks good - may I grab a couple of stills and add them into this thread - perhaps use them at the page head for a month too??
not a problem i will email you the pics if you want?
just emailed them to you, let us know if they dont come threw
Many thanks ...
(http://www.wellho.net/pix/oke1.jpg)
... as you can see, I have them, and they look great. I'm going to suggest that we feature Okehampton for September in the top panel of the site - and perhaps tie in Tavistock as they should in the future be related.
I enjoyed watching the yourube clip at http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=JYPF6pysQPg - of necessity of a lower picture quality than those excellent stills!
Have heard something to the effect that the Dartmoor Railway operation has been sold. More when known.
Seems the new Operations manager is a long standing railwayman known to me personnally!
Post by: signalandtelegraph on September 05, 2008, 03:18:31 pm
Try this link for more info, looks like things are moving in the right direction.
http://www.friendsofdartmoorrailway.org/news.php (http://www.friendsofdartmoorrailway.org/news.php)
Post by: Umberleigh on April 17, 2009, 07:48:21 pm
Good news :)
Passenger services stated again over Easter on the Oke - Meldon stretch using a 'Thumper' unit.
Looks like the new owners are still up for the Yeoford interchange plus other developments:
http://www.dartmoor-railway.co.uk/
Well done to all, especially after the rather negative press coverage following ECT's pull-out.
Indeed, good news, Umberleigh - and thanks for posting on this topic! :D
Just for completeness, there is another topic where this news has been posted, at http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=3882.msg39591#msg39591
No problem with the overlap - I just want to make sure everyone's aware of what's happening! ;) :D ;D
Post by: The SprinterMeister on May 06, 2009, 08:51:12 pm
Quote from: Umberleigh on April 17, 2009, 07:48:21 pm
I'm told the County Council have started works on the down platform at Yeoford in preperation for the services to Okehampton. There will be no FGW services from Exeter this year. Change at Yeoford for some form of 25mph contrivance to Okehampton.
Quote from: The SprinterMeister on May 06, 2009, 08:51:12 pm
If stock with CDL is used then they can run up to about 50 on the Oke branch I believe?
You may be right, it depends on the Safety Case. Possibly 25mph only where the line runs parrallel to the Barnstaple line and DR traincrew fully passed out on Rule Book module GE/RT8000/M1 (http://www.rgsonline.co.uk/Rule_Book/Rule%20Book%20Modules/M%20-%20Mishaps,%20Incidents%20and%20Extreme%20Weather/GERT8000-M1%20Iss%201.pdf) The Hamphire unit currently being used doesn't have CDL. I have no idea what rolling stock they are proposing to run to Yeoford.
Last time I was up there there was a vast collection of mk2fs all with CDL.
I look forward to the service starting, far better than bussing it to Okehampton.
Post by: Umberleigh on May 08, 2009, 05:06:00 pm
If this means a service on Saturdays and Bank hols as well as Sundays then this has to be very good news. It should also boost numbers on the Barnstaple services and could open the door to a regular weekday service, although commuters will be resistant to changing trains and thus perhaps more likely to use the bus. For leisure passengers however changing trains and even 25mph will not be a deterrent if the price is right, they can convey cycles, there are plenty of trains etc...
Post by: 6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01 on May 08, 2009, 06:06:14 pm
i will try and find out what stock is going to be used, its probably going to be the thumper there may be a way around the cdl issue will find out tomorow but it may be a wait and see kinda thing
Post by: John R on May 17, 2009, 09:42:33 pm
http://www.dartmoor-railway.co.uk/news.html
This update doesn't look encouraging, though maybe not surprising.
Post by: Andy on May 18, 2009, 10:58:04 am
The May date looked a bit optimistic. If they get it up and running for July-August, they'll be doing very well.
new update just to prove its not as bad as it seems
It is anticipated that the Sunday Rover service between St James' Park Exeter and Okehampton will be operated by First Great Western from Sunday 7th June 2009."
from http://www.dartmoor-railway.co.uk/news.html
Post by: 6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01 on June 04, 2009, 07:18:42 pm
services start this sunday from st james park to okehampton :)
there will be 5 trains in each direction linking with the dartmoor railways service to meldon link below
http://www.dartmoor-railway.co.uk/timetables.html
(http://www.flickr.com/photos/relex109/3485118003/in/photostream/)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3644/3485118003_f244db906f.jpg?v=0)
Post by: devon_metro on June 04, 2009, 09:02:24 pm
Might take a day off work in a few weeks and pop up there. I quite fancy a ride on that Thumper :)
Quote from: devon_metro on June 04, 2009, 09:02:24 pm
i helped paint it :) its running really well were working on the buffet car at meldon at the moment once thats back up and running will be a nice place to go for a cuppa, shame my cars outa action and cant get up there at the moment
Post by: RailCornwall on June 05, 2009, 10:02:34 pm
What are the ticketing regulations for Okehampton, might be worthwhile doing a daytrip soon?
well last year you could buy tickets at any mainline station (to okehampton anyway not sure about stampford) the dartmoor rover is for sale this year but as the fgw service was last min its not on the leaflet not sure if its going to be valid
if anyone has Avantix can you look up some fairs from st davids, the devon ranger and rover tickets are valid
The NR site has no record of the services yet, and only offers a bus connection to Okehampton on the sundays in question at present.
i know i looked someone will have Avantix
Post by: cereal_basher on June 06, 2009, 08:50:45 am
Please note these are all based on before the May fare change but should be a rough guide. All are adult return fares. No peak fare available, so all off peak. Prices are the same for Stampford Courtney
Exeter St Davids - Okehampton ^4.60
Exeter Central - Okehampton ^5
Barnstaple - Okehampton ^6
Exmouth - Okehampton ^6
Paignton - Okehampton ^7.50
Plymouth - Okehampton does not exist, last station with a Okehampton fare is Totnes at the same price as Paignton.
There are no fares to the East either.
Post by: Timmer on June 10, 2009, 07:31:10 pm
Timetable and fares information for summer Sunday Exeter-Okehamption service from FGW website:
http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/Content.aspx?id=4055
Post by: The SprinterMeister on June 20, 2009, 08:32:03 pm
Quote from: Timmer on June 10, 2009, 07:31:10 pm
And I have refreshed the route, just in case we get a little short handed. ;D
Quote from: The SprinterMeister on June 20, 2009, 08:32:03 pm
huh lol?
Post by: RailCornwall on July 08, 2009, 07:59:40 pm
Ok pros. Get me the best ticketting for Truro > Exeter > Okehampton > (Bus) > Gunnislake > Plymouth > Truro (I hold a Devon and Cornwall Railcard too)
I am presuming
CDR Truro > Plymouth
Advance Single Plymouth > Exeter
Devon Sunday Rover for the rest.
but would like confirmation please.
Post by: signalandtelegraph on July 08, 2009, 08:09:46 pm
Don't forget the Sunday rover is NOT valid on the Dartmoor Railway services
Quote from: RailCornwall on July 08, 2009, 07:59:40 pm
You could do Plymouth to Exeter on the Sunday Rover ticket on the X38 bus ;)
ok the sunday rover explained... someone else can fill in the gaps with trains, the dartmoor rover does give a ^1 discount on dartmoor railway services and is valid on fgw services from digby and sowton to barny (on tarka services) and from st james park to okehampton..... aswell as the service from gunislake to plymouth, that is the limit of fgw's acceptance, it is accepted on all stagecoach and cooks coaches busses within devon and all first devon busses in devon apart from the taunton one it is also valid on the x53 first hants and dorset service all the way from weymouth
just make sure you print off the terms and cons as none of the stagecoach drivers have been breifed and its now getting irritating!!
as far as from truro i think best way is truro to plym on a normal train ticket then dartmoor rover purchased on train to gunislake then get bus to okehampton then get your pound discount on dartmoor railway and say hello to me :-) then use the train to st davids and bus back to plymouth
total cost ^6.50 for the rover ^3.00 for dartmoor railway ride(^1 discount with rover ticket, and cost of plymouth to truro return) if your intererested i will find you all the times jest let me know when you want to set out in the morning
I'm thinking of going to Okehampton - just for the outing - on Sunday. Timetable, as far as I can see, at:
But I tried to use the journey planner on the right of the page from Taunton or Westbury or Salisbury and it tells me that there are no services. It works from Exeter though. Does this mean that I should drive to Exeter ;) ?
Post by: bemmy on August 28, 2009, 04:23:11 pm
Probably because you can't get through tickets as it's operated on behalf of Devon County Council, unless it's changed since I went 3 or 4 years ago -- we got separate tickets to Exeter and had to buy the Okehampton ticket on the train, which wasn't from a normal FGW ticket machine.
Post by: devon_metro on August 28, 2009, 06:01:48 pm
Quote from: bemmy on August 28, 2009, 04:23:11 pm
Yes, correct.
Fares available:
Totnes/Paignton/Exmouth (as boundaries) - Okehampton
Post by: RichardB on August 28, 2009, 06:41:59 pm
At the same time as the local fares that Devon Metro mentions were introduced (last year), it was agreed that Okehampton would be included in the Devon Day Ranger and relevant Railrovers too.
It is still a chartered service but the changes are because of a different deal between FGW and Devon County Council.
Very decent numbers when I did it the Sunday before last. This really may be the last year, with the Dartmoor Railway's shuttle to Yeoford taking over next year.
Post by: FlyingDutchman on September 03, 2009, 05:01:17 pm
I know that freight trains run this bit of track, but not sure what level the would have to be brought up to to have a Regular Passenger Service between Okehampton and Exeter.
Post by: Umberleigh on September 13, 2009, 06:55:19 pm
FGR run the Sunday Summer service without any probs but the difficulty is that the line owners don't want anything to interfere with freight services. Therefore imagine new signalling and a passing loop at Yeoford (perhaps) would be required, also a train operator willing to invest in rolling stock, drivers and guards and cover the inevitable losses unless a hefty grant could be secured from local authorities.
Probably a more realistic option is for the Dartmoor Railway people to run a push-pull Oke - Yeoford (for Exeter) service at weekends and a morning/evening weekday commuter service timed to avoid the freight movements.
Post by: james666 on October 04, 2009, 01:30:31 am
Quote from: Umberleigh on September 13, 2009, 06:55:19 pm
FGR run the Sunday Summer service without any probs but the difficulty is that the line owners don't want anything to interfere with freight services. Therefore imagine new signalling and a passing loop at Yeoford (perhaps) would be required
How frequent are the quarry trains these days? I would have thought that the freight traffic is sparse enough to work around a reasonably regular passenger service to Exeter (25 miles) without needing to upgrade the infrastructure beyond "one engine in steam" in the section between Okehampton and Crediton.
Whether it makes economic sense to run a weekday service through 18 thinly populated miles to a town of only 6000 people is another question. I wished it did last July when I took a trip on the Sunday special and mused sadly that I was travelling on the under-employed remnants of the track that once bore John Betjeman to Wadebridge and the Atlantic coast. You could make a better case if the entire loop to Plymouth were restored. The prognosis for the Tavistock end looks very hopeful at least. Meldon viaduct still looks in great condition. Could it still take the weight of a train I wonder...?
Post by: 6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01 on November 30, 2009, 05:21:01 pm
this christmas the dartmoor railway is running santa specials and mince pie specials for anyone that is interested please find details below
saturday the 5th and sunday the 6th
saturday the 12th and sunday the 13th
trains leave okehampton at 1000,1230, and 1500
trains leave sampford courtenay at 1030,1300,and 1530
adults ^12 children ^10 infants ^5
mince pie specials
27th 28th 29th and 30th of december
trains leaving at 0930,1200,and 1430 from okehampton
0945,1215 and 1445 from sampford courtenay
prices are ^9 for adults,^7 senior citizens, and ^5 for children
for more information or to book please call okehampton station on 01837811240
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on November 30, 2009, 10:28:18 pm
Trains leave Okehampton at 1000, 1230 and 1500
Trains leave Sampford Courtenay at 1030, 1300 and 1530
For more information, or to book, please call Okehampton station on 01837 811240
Post by: Mookiemoo on November 30, 2009, 10:34:58 pm
Quote from: chris from nailsea on November 30, 2009, 10:30:42 pm
I'm sure this is great - but did you need to tell us three times
Trains leaving at 0930, 1200, and 1430 from Okehampton
0945, 1215 and 1445 from Sampford Courtenay
Prices are ^9 for adults, ^7 senior citizens, and ^5 for children
Not as enthusiastic about this one then......only told us once
(can you tell im bored)
Unfortunately, yes: it's on three different weekends. I'm sorry, but that's the software. ::)
Since for obvious reasons I'm in a particularly pedantic mood tonight......
There is NOTHING in each of those posts to indicate different dates - they seem to be identical........I quoted your post in the entirety
FallenAngel: I do appreciate that you have had a very trying evening. So have I, in a way.
I'm only posting these items as a favour for someone - and the fact that the forum software works this way isn't my fault.
For the record - the precise dates, on three different weekends, are shown at http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?action=calendar;year=2009;month=12
C. ;)
Now you see - the forum software sucks cos I didnt even know there was such a calendar!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm calming down now but this is probably something that should either be fixed or disabled! Cos it does look like the common forum bug (not here but elsewhere) of repeated posts
Post by: IndustryInsider on December 01, 2009, 08:17:30 am
Quote from: FallenAngel on November 30, 2009, 11:06:13 pm
Perhaps you could include the date within the subject heading to avoid the confusion, Chris? i.e. 'Dartmoor Railway Santa Special - 12 Dec' or something, just so it's obvious it isn't a repeated post.
The link to the calender is pretty obvious though, and the fact you don't get repeated posts, nonsense and general spam on here is a testament to how good the forum software is - and the effort Graham, Chris and others put in to keep it that way. Well done, chaps - and don't let any silly negative comments to the contrary get you down. ::)
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on December 01, 2009, 05:37:42 pm
Thanks for your comments, IndustryInsider.
I've amended the headings of my posts, as you suggested. ;)
Post by: paul7575 on March 17, 2010, 08:13:22 pm
Has this been posted yet?
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse%20documents/track%20access/1%20current%20consultations/2010.03.17%20devon%20and%20cornwall%20railways%20track%20access%20contract/dcr%20orr%20form%20171%20_2_.pdf (http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse%20documents/track%20access/1%20current%20consultations/2010.03.17%20devon%20and%20cornwall%20railways%20track%20access%20contract/dcr%20orr%20form%20171%20_2_.pdf)
"The proposed contract is to enable Devon and Cornwall Railways to operate multiple-frequency daily
passenger service between Okehampton (on the Dartmoor Railway) and Exeter, and intermediate
stations. Okehampton currently only has limited Sunday service in the summer season."
Post by: devon_metro on March 18, 2010, 06:10:02 pm
Supposed to be a class 31 + 3 mk2s and a DBSO.
Not sure on the profitability factor however!!
Post by: RailCornwall on March 18, 2010, 06:25:50 pm
At least something resembling a train then!
Post by: John R on March 18, 2010, 07:05:19 pm
Maybe if it's successful they could expand to become Devon, Cornwall and Wiltshire Railways.
Post by: woody on March 18, 2010, 08:22:28 pm
Or even link up with Kilbrides Plymouth/Tavistock re-opening in 2014!
Strange that on reading the documents available that 'The Titfield Thunderbolt' came to mind. Interesting concept, wonder if the local media are on the case? A quick search using Google reveals little additional information.
Post by: The SprinterMeister on March 19, 2010, 09:11:02 am
Quote from: RailCornwall on March 18, 2010, 08:50:11 pm
Strange that on reading the documents available that 'The Titfield Thunderbolt' came to mind.
I rather thought that as well. The expectation seems to be that the residents of Okehampton will all forsake their cars & the established Western Greyhound / Stagecoach / Pearce & Crump bus services and dutifully trudge up the steep hill to Okehampton station to catch the train. I would think they will need at least 80% load factors to make it pay.
It also reminds me a bit of the very short lived Minehead - Bristol services which as it turned out carried insufficient traffic bar cranks who were merely doing the trip for the trips sake.
Devon County Council are said to be subsidising the venture. Whether or not this would last indefinitely would depend on Exeter's bid for unitary status which would affect the size of the financial pot.
Post by: signalandtelegraph on March 20, 2010, 09:10:13 am
Noticed that page 3 of the document in the link mentions delays betwen Crediton and Exmouth Jct so it would seem that the service will run to Exeter Central and then layover in the sidings at Exmouth Jct.
Unfortunately the A30 is a lot more accesible for 'most' of Okehamptons residents than the station. :(
Post by: anthony215 on March 20, 2010, 02:32:37 pm
I have been told that the operator will be getting some funding from the local council.
Couldnt a bus link be put on to link okehampton station & the town centre?
depending on price i am sure a few people will use it, if this doesn come off i can see a few railway enthusiasts using the service
Post by: The SprinterMeister on March 20, 2010, 04:16:00 pm
What concerns me is it would take more than a few cranks to make the thing pay. You also have to bear in mind that if your average Devonian has to get in his / her car to access the public transport they will tend to drive the whole way or use an alternative mode of public transport. This has happened to an extent with the Barnstaple line where some of the stations South of Chumleigh have been progressively hit by the activities of the Turners Tours 369 / 377 service buses. Copplestone has held up quite well though as has Yeoford which isn't served by the buses.
Okehampton already has a fair few buses going through there (Stagecoach 315 & Western Greyhound 500 / 510) and it remains to be seen if they will transfer to the proposed train. You would also need to convert quite a few additional Okehamptonites to public transport in order to make it pay. Where it could score is speed although you need to bear in mind that Crediton - Okehampton is basically 55mph top speed with long stretches of 40mph thrown into the mix. It also depends if slots can be found through the busy Exeter St Davids - Exmouth Jn section without disrupting the existing Exmouth, Paignton & Waterloo services. There needs to be a robust system in place to recover the train should it fail as there is no means of assisting it with FGW / SWT should it jack between Crediton & Exmouth Jn, potentially disrupting FGW / SWT services.
I'm not condemning the idea, but I hope for their sakes that DCR have researched fully the potential markets and the amount of public transport already operating through / via Okehampton.
I wasn't aware Dartmoor Railway had any NR certified drivers / guards on their books & I don't remember seeing any vacancies advertised. Unless the plans haven't been fully firmed up yet.
Quote from: anthony215 on March 20, 2010, 02:32:37 pm
The figures are shown in the linked track access application I posted earlier, that is a fact...
The funding aspect will be complicated though, as has been mentioned. Exeter has been granted Unitary Status, which has prevoked much consternation and a review probably will be called for. If this review is unsuccessful the service will be going through two authorities which will add a layer of confusion to the plans.
Exeter has been granted Unitary Status, which has prevoked much consternation and a review probably will be called for. If this review is unsuccessful the service will be going through two authorities which will add a layer of confusion to the plans.
Indeed. Removing the Exeter populace from the overall funding input of DCC will have large effect on DCC's ability to raise money for funding this sort of scheme. Not sure if Exeter City would in fact be willing to fund it as it isn't of great significance to Exeter residents anyway, other than perhaps for trips out for the day.
Post by: slippy on March 21, 2010, 12:52:16 am
Totally off region but the same operator will at the same time be starting a service between Shildon and Stanhope.
This from the BBC today
The Okehampton to Exeter Railway Line - last used by passenger services in 1972 - could be re-opened again.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/devon/hi/people_and_places/newsid_8587000/8587489.stm
"The Okehampton to Exeter Railway Line - last used by passenger services in 1972 "
Interesting quote. Presumably the Beeb can reference that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: 6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01 on March 29, 2010, 06:56:31 pm
Quote from: devon_metro on March 29, 2010, 06:48:57 pm
maybe our good old pacers are magical time traveling donkeys on the sunday special :D
Quote from: The SprinterMeister on March 20, 2010, 04:16:00 pm
What concerns me is it would take more than a few cranks to make the thing pay. You also have to bear in mind that if your average Devonian has to get in his / her car to access the public transport they will tend to drive the whole way or use an alternative mode of public transport.
Ivybridge has suffered from this problem.Like Okehampton the station is remote from most of the town which has easy access to the A38 and Plymouth its main market.A huge station car park with only a hand full of cars most times.Thus for Okehampton to compete with a main dual-carraigeway trunk route in these circumstances wont be easy.The Tavistock re-opening in 2014 has a far greater chance of success simply because the road alternative to Plymouth is poor and chronically congested in comparison.
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on March 30, 2010, 03:42:58 pm
While my local station is also not particularly central, being situated halfway between the town of Nailsea and the village of Backwell, it is nevertheless very successful in attracting local passengers.
The carpark here is already inadequate, being filled by 08:00 with commuter cars. Interestingly, many choose to drive to NLS from Yatton (because our parking is free, and it isn't at Yatton) or from Portishead, and even Clevedon to get a train (because it's still better than trying to drive all the way into Bristol, on the A370 or the A369, for example).
I live a ten minute walk from NLS - I do walk there, and catch the train into Bristol, rather than driving down to our station - or indeed all the way into Bristol.
I think there will similarly be a lot of people interested in using a train service between Okehampton and Exeter, when it becomes available.
Isn't parking at Yatton only ^1?
Post by: smokey on March 30, 2010, 04:18:35 pm
Quote from: woody on March 29, 2010, 08:59:53 pm
Ivybridge has suffered from this problem.Like Okehampton the station is remote from most of the town which has easy access to the A38 and Plymouth its main market. A huge station car park with only a hand full of cars most times. Thus for Okehampton to compete with a main dual-carraigeway trunk route in these circumstances wont be easy. The Tavistock re-opening in 2014 has a far greater chance of success simply because the road alternative to Plymouth is poor and chronically congested in comparison.
Well noises were made by RDS at the time. when plans were published that the Station at Ivybridge was on the wrong side of Ivybridge for a Plymouth Park and Ride service. would have more success as a Park and Ride for Exeter Services except ther's NO trains at the right times
Edit note: Chris, to amend quote marks.
Post by: Andy on March 30, 2010, 04:23:36 pm
Extending services across Exeter from St Davids via central to St James' Park should increase revenue a bit, one would think.
Does anyone know if there are plans to re-open Bow and North Tawton?
Quote from: Andy on March 30, 2010, 04:23:36 pm
ITV Westcountry local news currently have their news article as the main video on the front page of their site.
http://www.itv.com/westcountry-west/ (http://www.itv.com/westcountry-west/)
Bow & North Tawton stations are both in private hands so I would think that the chances are re-opening them are slight, bearing in mind they are both some distance from the respective villages. The track was raised at North Tawton to above platform height many years ago to allow greater headroom under the A3124 road bridge. Yeoford appears to have been left of the list of station stops as well.
I expect Yeoford will come on line on a Okie-Exeter service but as platforms and bridges need rebuilding, better to get up and running first.
According to that Westcountry news link they are looking elsewhere in the Westcountry to expand and have already expressed an interest at improving rail links between Exeter and Plymouth.That could be interesting.
Edit note: Chris to amend quote marks.
Post by: vacman on March 31, 2010, 12:59:59 am
Quote from: smokey on March 30, 2010, 04:18:35 pm
Ivybridge is quite a busy little station!
Post by: Zoe on March 31, 2010, 01:07:16 am
They don't seem to know about summer Sundays.
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on March 31, 2010, 01:30:38 am
I'm always very reluctant to amend anyone's posts - but in this particular case, because the 'quote' markers had got scrambled, it was becoming increasingly unclear just who was quoting who.
I've amended some of the previous posts here, purely to correct these 'quote' markers. I've noted those particular posts accordingly, and I hope this does not upset anyone.
However, if I may please remind everyone: to avoid the possibility of such confusion, it really is 'best practice' if we can avoid 'reply with quote' and just use 'reply', whenever possible.
Chris. :-X
I'm not entirely sure what they mean by that in all honesty. The service between Exeter & Plymouth is reasonably ok with FGW & AXC services running between the two points with reasonable ticket interavailability. Now whether they mean re-instating the missing section between Bere Alston & Meldon Quarry I don't know.
I expect Yeoford has been left off the list due to revenue abstraction issues from the existing Barnstaple branch line services. And of course there doesn't seem to have been any real effort made into reinstating the disused platform as of yet. Just guessing on my part of course.
Thanks for the info on Bow & North Tawton, Sprintermeister; the LSWR were not particularly hot at situating stations close to towns & villages on North Devon and North Cornwall lines, were they? That area is quite sparsely populated so a parkway-type set-up would probably not have much appeal.
It's hard to see where else they could operate in Devon & Cornwall, especially Cornwall. Maybe extending east from Exeter to Axminster?
There could be an opportunity to run OA services from Newquay to Plymouth. It'd be interesting to see path availability between Plymouth and PZ as many would appreciate a 'proper train' service rather than the short DMU offerings on the non IC services that currently run. A long term deal incorporating the Bodmin and Wenford could be interesting. Bodmin would make an ideal stock stabling facility too.
Maybe we are drifting off the topic if we talk about open access possibilities in Cwll in this thread but to reply to railCornwall, thoughts about a Bodmin General-Plymouth stopper and, even further into the realms of fantasy, a Fowey-Plymouth one crossed my mind. I agree that Newquay is probably the most realistic option, though a second platform at NQY would seem to be a pre-requisite for this.
Post by: FlyingDutchman on March 31, 2010, 04:24:31 pm
It would be interesting if they go to Axeminster and it should mean for trains for pinhoe and James Park
Maybe we are drifting off the topic if we talk about open access possibilities in Cwll in this thread ...
Thanks, Andy! If you'd like me to split these posts off into a new topic, in 'Plymouth and Cornwall', please just shout! ;)
Quote from: vacman on March 31, 2010, 12:59:59 am
Ivybridge station would be a lot busy IF the station was west of the town.
What's the point in driving East to catch a train west.
The Station was built for Plymouth park & Ride.
Post by: vacman on March 31, 2010, 08:56:29 pm
And where are the spare paths between Par and Newquay????
Apparently the Dartmoor Railway now have one mile of brand new track, capable of supporting 125 mph trains completed in February by Network rail to trial its High Output Track Renewal Equipment.
Any one know what lines speeds could be acheived if the entire former Southern Plymouth/Exeter route via Okehampton was re-opened with similarly ugraded track.
Perhaps that was what Devon and Cornwall railways meant by "Improved rail links between Exeter and Plymouth".Just a thought.
Post by: BUMPER on April 01, 2010, 03:14:16 pm
The Okehampton-Exeter saga seems to have become a bit unfocussed. While any rail improvement is welcome, it is worth mentioning that Exeter-Okie bus services have contracted in recent years, and commuters would have to climb a couple of hundred feet to get to the station. I am alarmed to think that Devon CC money has gone into this enterprise without any overt cost benefit analysis. As regular on the Exmouth line, I think there are more deserving cases going begging for a relatively modest amount which would transform rail into a bright 21st century future. Our line (EXD_EXM) is basically full, already maintaining 10% passenger increase annually even during the recession, with the prospect of 6000 more houses approved to be built on its line of route within the next five years. While ^35 million is allocated for various local road schemes, little is available for rail. I think promotion of investment where the system is already successful, but creaking, would be better than fantasy thinking about possible HST timings between Exeter and Plymouth via Tavistock - how many hundreds of millions would that cost, and should it take precedence over electrification to Exeter and Plymouth? There is a grave dange in talking up romantic schemes for new or reopened services, and getting money for them, while the bread and butter lines, which will have an increasing part to play in the overall transport network they serve, wither through lack of what should be routine upgrading.
Post by: SandTEngineer on April 01, 2010, 08:01:13 pm
Think this stinks a little bit. Public money (ours) being used to upgrade a private railway. There are pleanty of 'national' lines that could have been used for the trial (Looe branch on winter sundays comes to mind).
Post by: paul7575 on April 01, 2010, 08:11:08 pm
What if the equipment had failed on the line mid trial? Then everyone would be asking why the new gear hadn't been trialled somewhere else. Probably done at no actual cost to NR anyway, should be a manufacturer's demonstration as well as a trial.
Post by: The SprinterMeister on April 01, 2010, 08:35:08 pm
Quote from: SandTEngineer on April 01, 2010, 08:01:13 pm
Possibly the excercise benefits both parties as the TRT / HOBC team can do their staff training on a nice long railway with a four mile straight section in it without worrying too much about what happens if there are problems encountered during the training. And the quarry co get a mile of nice new track into the bargain. Win win to me.
Mind I'm not saying that the Barnstaple line couldn't do with some more CWR but I don't believe the steel sleepers NR use on rural lines are compatible with the machinery on the TRT.
Post by: woody on April 01, 2010, 09:41:38 pm
Quote from: BUMPER on April 01, 2010, 03:14:16 pm
There is a grave dange in talking up romantic schemes for new or reopened services, and getting money for them, while the bread and butter lines, which will have an increasing part to play in the overall transport network they serve, wither through lack of what should be routine upgrading.
Quite agree but that does not stop poeple dreaming up such schemes sugh as a ^30billion North/South high speed line when so much needs doing on what we have already like HST replacement and providing more rolling stock generally.All sorts of factors effect market economics and they are not always logical(Politics for one).
Post by: FlyingDutchman on April 05, 2010, 05:23:07 pm
I just wondered what the tracked bed is like between these two location Okehampton to Tavistock. I got told several years ago there was only one house in the way.
I am not sure what the status of the Bridge is I know they place a cycle track on the bridge. I would not be sure about trains now.
The Line between Crediton and Cowely Exeter was this ever a double track line
Post by: 6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01 on April 05, 2010, 07:09:04 pm
Quote from: FlyingDutchman on April 05, 2010, 05:34:36 pm
if it ever was it was a long time ago ive been looking at some old photos and its single at cowley... found this link http://freepages.nostalgia.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~cyberheritage/cowley.htm
this had already been discussed im sure someone else on here will have more details i will have a hunt for the thread for you
Post by: TerminalJunkie on April 05, 2010, 08:14:42 pm
Yes - I can remember it being double track in the late 1970s. According to http://www.trainweb.org/railwest/gen/signal/sl-lswr.html#Oke (http://www.trainweb.org/railwest/gen/signal/sl-lswr.html#Oke) it was singled in 1984.
This picture (http://www.derbysulzers.com/25069newton78.jpg) from 1978 shows the double track through Newton St Cyres.
Quote from: TerminalJunkie on April 05, 2010, 08:14:42 pm
singled the year i was born... strange how things deteriorate after 1984 lol
Details are in this topic (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=5946.msg57770#msg57770) on the forum.
Post by: FlyingDutchman on April 06, 2010, 11:18:57 am
Was singled when they installed the colour light signalling back in mid-80's, so could have been '84. Guy: it was very much a double line back in Southern days as it was a section of the Waterloo - Plymouth main line; I've heard it said that at certain times there was a train through Crediton station every 4 mins!
Good luck to Devon & Cornwall Railways with their Open Access service, if they provide decent space for bikes I can see a lot of custom coming their way from Exeter (where I work)
Post by: gaf71 on April 15, 2010, 08:33:55 am
It seem's that Dartmoor Railway aren't quite ready to run services at the moment, as FGW will continue to run summer Sunday services to Okehampton this year.
Quote from: gaf71 on April 15, 2010, 08:33:55 am
where did you hear that from mate?
Post by: noddingdonkey on April 15, 2010, 05:43:24 pm
well we're all re-signing the route at St David's so that's a pretty good indication that they're not ready up at Dartmoor Railway towers!
Posted in Exeter booking on point.
wow thats very impressive actually that they can help out at such short notice
Quote from: relex109 on April 15, 2010, 07:55:52 pm
People & rolling stock is much less of a problem on Sundays. I must pop 'upstairs' and make sure it's still on my route card.
Post by: eightf48544 on April 17, 2010, 09:58:11 am
It is also another example of where privatisation is actually a hinderance to running the service.
Despite the claim that it would encourage operators to run more trains reopen lines etc. it has been the Welsh And Scottish Assemblies that have opened the most lines.
In Engalnd it would be the local authorities but most rail lines go through several authorities so it difficult to quantify the benefits to each authority.
In this case running a bus from surrounding villages through Okehampton to the station in connection with the trains would seem to be a good idea.
However with DafT insisting buses compete with buses and trains and trains compete with trains and buses, it couldn't be done. Which is of course an absurb situation when they are in fact complementary.
Which is why although it has been discussed elsewhere on this board the EC directive on the length of a bus route works well in Europe because there are more rail lines nearer more people so the bus routes don't have to serve large stretches of country such as North Devon and Cornwall, North Norfolk etc. without nearby rail lines.
Quote from: eightf48544 on April 17, 2010, 09:58:11 am
Makes you wonder how they get on in France as large chunks of the rural networks have been abandoned (allthough not formally closed) and SNCF provide replacement buses instead.
Your getting the EU rules confused with the UK domestic driver rules by the way, the Uk domestic rules allow service buses on routes of 50km or less to run without a Tachograph and not adhere to the EU driver hours legislation provided the driver has a roster and / or timetable in his possession. This can of course be overcome by fitting a Tachograph to the bus, although in some cases fitting a modern digital Tachograph to an elderly bus isn't an economic option as it would cost more than the vehicle is worth. Coaches, (older ones are sometimes used as service buses by some operators with a wayfarer ticket machine bolted onto the front platform) generally have a Tachograph on them anyway.
Any news on the DCR or has their open access application been held up by the dissolution of parliament / DfT prior to the general election? Any news on any vacancies they might be advertising?
Post by: anthony215 on April 19, 2010, 05:09:09 pm
Looks like they are going ahead accordimng to some articles in the various railway magazines. they are looking for local people to employ according to one articles i read.
services could be starting this summer
Post by: The SprinterMeister on April 21, 2010, 11:21:44 am
Not sure. I suspect there are pathways on the single line as as far as Axminster despite the SWT hourly services. Although there is little slack capacity between Exeter St Davids & Exmouth Jn. However unless the tickets are interavailble between SWT & DCR there would be little actual market for DCR services going to Axminster.
Quote from: The SprinterMeister on April 21, 2010, 11:21:44 am
Not sure. I suspect there are pathways on the single line as as far as Axminster despite the SWT hourly services.
There is spare capacity, AFAICT [from drawing a simple distance/time graph] but it can only support a service pattern with 2 hours between the additional trains from Exeter. It would have to follow about 20 mins after an up SWT service and wait for about 4 or 5 mins for the next down SWT to cross at Honiton. If it sits at Axminster from about xx30 to xx40 it can then head back to Honiton and cross with the next up SWT
The second hourly Axminster proposal discussed in the RUS, running in every alternate half hour between SWT services, would be the ideal, but to introduce that needs another loop 'somewhere just west of Whimple' as well. Also wherever that loop is placed it would probably have to be an extended length (dynamic) loop to allow for perturbations in the main service's running times.
I suspect an additional bit of double line would be required anyway if the new station at Cranbrook (discussed here (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=6032.0)) ever comes to pass. I suspect the end of the double line section would be somewhere between Cranaford AHBC and the old Broadclyst station site.
Which sadly would bring the train to Axminster into pathing conflict with the current Exmouth services from Exeter which also leave about 20 minutes behind the xx:26 Waterloo line departures. And as the Exmouth line departures tie in with the rest of the Devon internals a major rewrite would be required, which seems a lot of effort to go to just to send a 31 & coaches to Axminster a few times a day.
My 'about 20 mins after' was just a finger in the air really, I didn't look at other local services...
However, by sheer coincidence, I've just been reading the timings of tomorrow's NR NMT run down the line to Exeter and back to Basingstoke. The down train gets to Exeter before the standard hourly pattern starts, but the up timings as far as Yeovil Junction should be of interest to those wondering how to get another service along that way...
SWT service running ahead departure timings in bold
1026 EXETSTDAV PASS 10:43
1030 EXETERCEN PASS 10:45
1032 (estimated) EXMOUTHJN PASS 10:47
1035 (est) PINHOE PASS 10:56
1053 HONITON 11:08 11:19
1106 AXMINSTER PASS 11:30
1110 (est) CHARD JN 11:37 11:58
1129YEOVIL JN 12:13 12:47
Acknowledgements to WNXX forums
So there's some 32 mins of waiting time just to get from Exeter to Yeovil Jn - unlikely anyone would run a new through service with those sort of timings...
Post by: northwesterntrains on April 29, 2010, 09:57:36 am
A new operator is mentioned in the new NR timetable with no further info given. Does anyone know where further info can be found?
Post by: Cornish Traveller on April 29, 2010, 12:06:39 pm
:) This is the company that will operate new daily services to Okehampton soon.
Post by: SandTEngineer on May 30, 2010, 03:08:47 pm
Does anybody know what has happened to the service to Okehampton this year ???. It's in the FGW timetable but does not appear to be running (today 30 May 2010 at least). I am planning to use it next Sunday.
i was actually suppost to go today myself... to be honest i remember that last year that it took a few weeks for the details to be on the fgw site i should also be going next week as far as i know its running
Quote from: SandTEngineer on May 30, 2010, 03:08:47 pm
but does not appear to be running (today 30 May 2010 at least).
Post by: Super Guard on May 31, 2010, 04:35:28 pm
It was running yesterday.
Having said that, there was nothing on CIS at EXD ::)
Quote from: Donkey Guard on May 31, 2010, 04:35:28 pm
Thanks for that. I was looking at the Live Departures/Arrivals Boards on the FGW site and nothing was shown for the Okehampton trains (all day).
Post by: bignosemac on September 02, 2010, 06:29:10 am
From the Crediton Gazette (http://www.thisisdevon.co.uk/middevon/WAIT-RAIL-PLAN-DECISION-DRAGS/article-2584602-detail/article.html):
Devon and Cornwall Railways (DCR) must wait for a public consultation to finish before finding out whether it will be allowed to run six trains each weekday between Okehampton and Exeter. It was hoped that the new service, which would see trains running every 90 minutes and stopping at stations including Crediton, could start in May, with a through train from Okehampton to London operating by December. It was then stated that it would be at least late July before the service, which would benefit commuters, shoppers and tourists alike, started. But plans have been delayed further, as the Office of Rail Regulation (ORR) is still considering DCR's application for a European passenger and freight licence.
An ORR spokesman told the Gazette: "ORR needs to verify that a company is able to operate before any licence is issued. A public consultation has begun so that interested parties can comment on the application. We cannot issue any licences until the consultation has finished, and then we will make our decision. We have already issued the necessary safety certificate, and the company will also need to negotiate track access rights so that it can use the railway."
The consultation started on Thursday, August 26, and runs until Wednesday, September 22.
Comments on the proposal to grant the applicant a licence should be sent to okiemute.mowoe@orr.gsi.gov.uk or Mute Mowoe, Office of Rail Regulation, 1 Kemble Street, London WC2B 4AN, before the closing date.
Dennis Leworthy, duty manager for Dartmoor Railway (DR), which supports trains between Okehampton and Exeter on Sundays during summer only, said that from the time that authority was given it would take ten weeks to get everything in place to run the service, including staff.
DCR, which would run the new service, and DR, which runs the heritage service and does not run trains on the national network, would both work from Okehampton and there would be some crossover in staff. Both companies are subsidiaries of British American Railway Services, a company formed by Iowa Pacific Holdings of Chicago to acquire the assets of ECT Rail Holdings in 2008.
Mr Leworthy said: "Until we get authority from the ORR we are not going to put together the wherewithal to run the service. We are hoping that we will be able to start the service this year. We are on tenterhooks. We have had enquiries about it from Exeter University and the Royal Devon & Exeter Hospital and we are keen to get going. We were anticipating that we would be able to start in May, but the ORR is going through everything with a fine-tooth comb. We believe it has been happy with everything so far, but it kept asking to see more and we did not account for these delays."
The line was built in the second half of the 19th century, but the Okehampton to Exeter passenger service was withdrawn by British Rail in 1972 as part of the Beeching cuts, and the main use of the line was then to transport ballast from Meldon Quarry. Regular passenger services were reinstated on the line in 1997 with the inception of the Dartmoor Railway community interest company, whose volunteers help to maintain the line.
Devon County Council gave ^250,000 towards the project to bring the second platform at Yeoford station back into use, as it is a junction, to enable the dream for daily trains to be realised. The grant came from the council's Investing in Devon programme, funded by the proceeds of the sale of Exeter Airport.
Post by: Andy on September 02, 2010, 01:13:15 pm
Thank you for posting this article, bignosemac. I'm happy to read that this project is moving forward, albeit rather slowly at the moment.
Presumably, the through service to London would operate over the LSWR route rather than the GWML?? I imagine there may be pathing issues...
Post by: anthony215 on September 02, 2010, 07:01:52 pm
I wonder what they will use for their London service? are there any paths availablle on the route via axminster?
Post by: vacman on September 02, 2010, 11:59:35 pm
Okehampton wasn't closed as part of the Beeching cuts, Beeching actually retained the branch if you look into the Beeching report!
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on September 03, 2010, 12:08:32 am
... the Okehampton to Exeter passenger service was withdrawn by British Rail in 1972 as part of the Beeching cuts ...
Eh ?? ::) :o
Post by: qwerty on September 03, 2010, 01:52:20 pm
Rumour going around the mess room and at Exeter that FGW have been asked to run a service on behalf of DCR from Dec. timetable change. 4 off peak trips per day as a demonstation.
Post by: bignosemac on September 03, 2010, 02:20:15 pm
And the rolling stock is coming from where.....??
Post by: devon_metro on September 03, 2010, 02:23:51 pm
Presumably a single 153, requirement for units is lower in Winter as none of the Cornish branches or Weymouth need to be strengthened.
FGW are also are having some more london midland class 150's and i have been told that the loco hauled set on the Cardiff - Taunton/Paignton diagram is to be withdrawn from the beginning of october and be replaced by a DMU. I havent heard about the other loco hauled set
Post by: Louis94 on September 04, 2010, 07:28:26 pm
Does anyone know why today there were several trains to and from Okehampton on the departure screens, and live departure boards online at Exeter St Davids today?
All that happened was the service was announced then the service just disappeared from the screens about 5 mins after it was due.
Anyone know what this was all about?
I suspect some sort of system error. I found this on live departures:
(http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt68/bignosemac/oke.jpg)
742 Overdue!!! :o
Quote from: bignosemac on September 03, 2010, 02:20:15 pm
I presume the clue is in the words "off peak".
Just found this piece of infomation. It seems that DCR or rather its parents company has been granted a licence. This should be a step in the right direction
Here is the link (Before certain members start complaining):
http://www.weardale-railway.org.uk/snippets_main.htm
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on September 14, 2010, 07:58:19 pm
Thanks for quoting your source for that information, anthony215.
CfN. ;)
Post by: paul7575 on September 14, 2010, 09:10:16 pm
They haven't been granted a licence yet. :-\ They will be if no-one objects over the 28 day consultation...
Post by: 6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01 on October 03, 2010, 12:33:47 am
have we had some thread merging here ? or am i going even more crazy ;D
Post by: bignosemac on October 03, 2010, 12:47:53 am
I believe CfN has been busy tidying up some disparate threads that were discussing the same thing.
So no, you are not going crazy, relex.
Well, no more than usual. :P ;D
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on October 03, 2010, 12:53:53 am
Thread merging indeed. :-[
I'm trying to improve the 'ease of reference' of some areas of this forum, by merging topics which generally cover the same subject - but which have cropped up over the past three years on different boards - and with headings which sometimes don't necessarily give much of a clue as to their subject!
There may be some more 'fine tuning' to be done, though, as sometimes we do see posts start to go a little off-topic! ::)
CfN. :)
Post by: paul7575 on October 05, 2010, 07:08:28 pm
Over on WNXX, someone has just reported a press release that he's received indicating that BARS, the parent of DCR, have just bought the assets of spot hire company Hanson Traction.
Various 31s and 56s as far as I can see. Possibilities for the Okehampton Exeter service perhaps? ::)
Post by: caliwag on October 06, 2010, 08:34:58 pm
Apologies if this has appeared elsewhere...
http://www.budepeople.co.uk/groups/generaldiscussion/Bude-residents-asked-new-railway-link/story-10057537-detail/story.html
Post by: TerminalJunkie on November 21, 2010, 12:29:34 pm
A couple of years ago, FGW made all the Yeoford stops compulsory, it anticipation of a service between Yeoford and Okehampton.
From this December Yeoford reverts to request stop only.
Post by: signalandtelegraph on November 28, 2010, 01:28:57 pm
Class 31, 3 Mk2's and a DBSO! (with 2 x 31 and 4 Mk2's given as the alternative) page 95
See here here (http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse documents/tra.../devonandcornwalldrafttacversion2 _2_.pdf - 622k - 16 Mar 2010 /)
Post by: LiskeardRich on November 28, 2010, 02:08:42 pm
Quote from: signalandtelegraph on November 28, 2010, 01:28:57 pm
in 30 mins your link says
Unfortunately the following page was not found: http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse documents/tra.../devonandcornwalldrafttacversion2 _2_.pdf - 622k - 16 mar 2010
Try http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse%20documents/track%20access/2%20completed%20consultations/2010.03.17%20devon%20and%20cornwall%20railways%20track%20access%20contract%20-%20consultation%20closed%2013%20april%202010/devonandcornwalldrafttacversion2%20_2_.pdf
Chris. ;)
Post by: Umberleigh on January 26, 2011, 12:45:31 pm
So does the sad demise of the Wrexham & Shropshire Railway effectively scupper hopes for an Open Access service from Okehampton? I would be very surprised if their plans for a service beyond Exeter get the go-ahead and it also raises serious doubts re the viability of a subsidy-less operation between Oke and Exeter stations.
Post by: anthony215 on January 26, 2011, 04:16:30 pm
I think it may have some effect but DCR do seem to be very keen on making this venture work. Sdly we will have to see how passenger numbers are if/when the service starts.
1 problem for wrexham & shropshire was their costs, especially because they were using loco hauled stock. i think it would have been a better idea if they had used some class 168's if chiltern could spare any on the lightly used off peak services.
Another problem for them is that i did hear they were told that they would not be allowed to carry passengers between London Marylebone & Banbury/Lemington Spa from may 2011. Sadly i think that may have been one of the reasons to push the company over the edge especially since they did carry a lot of commutors
Post by: Andy on January 26, 2011, 08:51:04 pm
I hope they persevere, get the go-ahead and give it a try regardless of the Wrexham & Shropshire setback. As there is currently no service between Okehampton and Exeter, in addition to providing a direct London service, they have a potential local market to tap into as well, plus the summer tourist trade, of course.
From Okehampton People (http://www.okehamptonpeople.co.uk/groups/okehampton-summer/Okehampton-tourists-locals/story-10892951-detail/story.html):
As the Easter holidays approach (although they won't actually cover Easter this year!) we can expect an influx of tourists taking advantage of improving weather promised in the middle of April.
And rather than roar by down the A30, let's hope they stop off for a few hours - or, better still, days - and enjoy all that Okehampton has to offer. We'll go on a quick - but by no means comprehensive - tour.
Any tourist trail of the town is best started at the Tourist Information Point in the Museum Yard, where you can pick up leaflets and maps to guide you around the area. And while you're there, drop into the Museum of Dartmoor Life, which has won several awards for it's portrayal of life on the north side of Dartmoor over the centuries. The exhibitions of day-to-day rural life are particularly evocative.
Next stop should be Okehampton Castle, which dates from Norman times but was rebuilt as an opulent private residence in the 14th century. The excellent audio guide will interpret the ruins , and the well-kept grounds make an excellent picnic spot.
Until 1917 the Castle was owned by one Sydney Simmons, a great benefactor of the town. In that year he donated the building and grounds "to ever thereafter enjoyed by the inhabitants of and visitors to the town of Okehampton...". As well as the gift of the Castle, he also endowed the town's park - Simmons Park - which you can call into on your way to the next port of call, Okehampton Station.
The station lies at the top of (of course) Station Road and is a must for all railway lovers. It is one of the very few of Beeching's closures which has re-opened - after a spectacular renovation, which has taken it back to the old Southern Railway colours... and correct in every detail.
During summer you can catch a train to Meldon Quarry and viaduct... and... and... watch this space... by summer 2011 there just might be trains to Exeter on a daily basis. (At present they only run on Sunday.)
The Station Buffet offers a good selection of meals and snacks, while over the tracks you'll find Okehampton Youth Hostel, which not only provides accommodation but also is the base for Adventure Okehampton, which organises all manner of action days out on Dartmoor.
There's so much to see - we haven't got to the Moor yet, or any National Trust properties - that you might think about staying. Try Upcott House for a very well-appointed family B&B... follow the link to check for any seasonal deals on offer.
You'll find enough to do in and around Okehampton that it could make an excellent centre for a family holiday... many families come year after year to enjoy the scenery, the activities, the friendly welcome... and the local food and drink (but that will have to wait for another day!)
Post by: bignosemac on March 29, 2011, 06:59:25 pm
A line that I'm still yet to bash. Maybe this summer....
Might be a bit of a rush considering how close we are to summer to get staff etc for this Okehampton to Exeter service?
I suspect it will be early autum before the full rail service starts if they get their passenger licence soon.
I am looking forward to when this service starts and i hope it is a sucess
the line wasn't closed by Beeching! the line between Oke and Coleford wasn't even listed in the Beeching report!
Tsk! Journalists, eh? ::) ;D
Post by: RichardB on March 30, 2011, 10:50:28 am
From what I hear, the owners of the Dartmoor Ralway are concentrating on building up their freight interests so a weekday passenger service won't happen before 2012.
The Sunday trains will be back for the Summer. These are sponsored by Devon County Council.
Post by: trainbuff on August 16, 2011, 09:59:53 am
Just visited and signed a few sepecific railway related ones, including Re-dualling of Salisbury to Exeter.
Have also produced one about Okehampton to Tavistock (assuming that Bere Alston-Tavistock reopened as in Killbride plans).
Assuming the speed could be raised to 60mph or higher, and I believe this is do able. A passing loop at Bere Alston to facilitate the Gunnislake service, loops positioned at Okehampton, needing 1 point I believe creating an additional crossing place and possible Okehampton to Exeter service. Moving the Junction from Crediton back to Coleford Junction to create a 3 mile long dynamic loop. A train could leave Exeter at xx50 and Plymouth at xx20. They would pass at Bere Alston and at Yeoford and still enable Barnstaple and Gunnislake services to operate. This would mean a long single line section between Bere Alston and Okehampton but would enable some XC and SWT services to go via this route in addition to stopping services.
I know it is unlikely thatt I will get 100,000 signatures needed for a debate, but I have posted a petition I would like people to sign.
It is at http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/12531
Hope you can add your autographs so to speak!
Post by: Maxwell P on August 16, 2011, 10:05:46 am
Signed by me and good luck to you. SWT trains west of Exeter though? ;D
Post by: trainbuff on August 16, 2011, 01:54:38 pm
Yes. In the long term future and maybe only a couple of trains a day. Any service going to /from Plymouth could be limited stopper so faster to london than present.
XC services could use the current sets they presently use. Not the ones from Cornwall which would require 2 reversals. However, services starting from and going to Plymouth could be arranged at times that allow Paignton services to pick up XC passengers. This would leave only those passengers from Totnes that would lose direct services. Though of course extra GW stopping trains could replace these 3 or 4 services a dayThe only reason they stopped going to Paignton was lack of stock. In 10 years or so this will (hopefully) be different.
I know it is a major dream.....some would say pipe dream....and I have to say that I would not want this route to be at the expense of the more profitable present route. At least in the short to medium term till Global warming takes hold etc. Then, it would be up to the Government of the time to work out which alternative route to build etc
Post by: anthony215 on August 16, 2011, 05:38:57 pm
Signed it
Post by: Plymboi on September 14, 2011, 12:23:36 pm
I was under the impression that the Okehampton line from Yeoford was due to be transfered to National Rail in December 2009. Has this not happening anymore?
And are regular services to Okehampton for Passengers ever going to be something in the near future?
I think devon & cornwall railways are still waiting for a passenger licence.
After that they have to get the rolling stock and make sure staff are trained etc.
Post by: 6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01 on September 14, 2011, 06:39:32 pm
its not being transfered is it?
Post by: smokey on September 15, 2011, 12:33:46 pm
I understand that Meldon Quarry has now closed. >:(
When BR sold off Meldon Quarry, there was a Legal Problem, this being that Meldon Quarrry has to be operated by a Railway Company.
So to get round this the Coleford to Meldon Line was sold as part of the Quarry package..
Is there anywhere else that BR sold off a line?
Post by: grahame on September 15, 2011, 12:49:14 pm
Quote from: smokey on September 15, 2011, 12:33:46 pm
Aberystwyth to Devil's Bridge?
And how about some that weren't carrying trains at the time ...
Paignton to Kingswear
Norton Fitzwarren to Minehead
I'd forgot about the VoR line.
When I said "is there anywhere else that BR sold off a line" I meant lines that weren't closed or closing, as is the case for most if not all Private Steam lines.
BR sold off the Paignton - Kingswear line whilst they were still operating services over it. As I understand it BR (W) provided some of the services for the Dart Valley Railway shortly after purchase in 1972 as the initial aim was to operate a year round service. The DVR soon realised that this wasn't going to be profitable and ran it as a peak season steam railway, as it stands today.
Post by: The SprinterMeister on October 11, 2011, 09:57:06 pm
Quote from: anthony215 on September 14, 2011, 05:50:42 pm
I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for any of that to happen...
Post by: 6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01 on October 12, 2011, 03:11:41 pm
Quote from: The SprinterMeister on October 11, 2011, 09:57:06 pm
have to admit ive not been over to okehampton properly in a while i know the freight licence has been granted some time ago have not been keeping upto date on the proposed services
Post by: FlyingDutchman on October 12, 2011, 07:22:36 pm
On the BBC One local News tonight the Conservative Councilor mentioned about the Okehampton rail service as possible way of moving froward
http://www.thisissouthdevon.co.uk/4-5million-bid-transform-Dartmoor-Exmoor/story-13539869-detail/story.html
Post by: anthony215 on October 12, 2011, 09:15:29 pm
What was the frequency proposed for the Okehampton - Exeter service anyway?
I am sure I heard it mentioned that it was 1 train every 90 minutes or something.
Main problem I think is the cost especially since they are planning to use a class 31 & DBSO with 2 mk2 carriages, Mind you I think the enthusiasts will be happy.
Quote from: anthony215 on October 12, 2011, 09:15:29 pm
Until such time the enthusiasts have cleared the 31 for 1000 miles after which they will dissapear again, being the fickle things that they are. Preserved railways can plan a buisness case on that sort of thing, a buisness for attracting and moving commuters cannot do so.
I would have thought the NIR 450 class DEMU stock currently being sold off by Translink (if fitted with UK gauge B5T / MK6 bogies) might be more suitable for that operation, particularly as its already OTMR and TPWS fitted.
Post by: Zoe on October 12, 2011, 10:56:50 pm
Wouldn't the gauge conversion be quite expensive?
Quote from: Zo^ on October 12, 2011, 10:56:50 pm
Not really because the units are built to UK loading gauge, being basically 455 EMU upper parts mounted on Mk1 underframes. Powered by EE / GEC 4SRKT engines and EE538 traction motors recovered from earlier units. And there are no side buffers to move / remount. If you can find some Mk1 EMU Mk6 (resusing motors and gearssets from existing power bogies) and B5T bogies, remount and shorten the footboards that's about the size of it. It may even be possible to modify the existing bogies, nothing that Pullman Rail Cardiff or Knights Rail at Eastleigh couldn't reasonably do, and probably cheaper to operate than a 31 and hauled stock.
I was referring to the track gauge not the loading gauge which is different in Northern Ireland. As for loading gauge, you say the units were built to UK loading gauge but if this gauge officially exists then it would also have to be the loading gauge for Northern Ireland as Northern Ireland is part of the UK.
i like turtles........
Post by: Maxwell P on October 14, 2011, 11:00:08 am
AFAIK
The Loading Gauge in Ireland was constrained by the pioneer Dublin and Kingstown Railway built in 1834 and laid to the Stephenson track gauge of 4' 8 1/2".
This meant that the rolling stock was constructed to the then standard British loading gauge. As the DKR was built through the populated part of the City, subsequent widening to 5' 3" was unable to take advantage of the broader tracks, loading gauge wise, as the line's structure could not be altered without immense cost and disruption. This resulted in the use of vehicles that meet the BR loading gauge, albeit with wider bogies.
I am though, unsure as to the dimensions of the newer DART and IE stock.
Post by: vacman on October 15, 2011, 08:48:24 pm
I believe the loading gauge in Ireland and Northern Ireland is the same as mainland UK, if you look at Irish stock the bogies sometimes stick out further than the side of the train.
Post by: WSW Frome on October 16, 2011, 09:07:39 am
Just to add a small contribution. The Irish Track gauge of 5ft 3in was determined by a Parliamentary Committee deliberating in about 1850 (I have not checked the date). This was of course when Ireland was one nation/country/island and could be considered as part of GB/UK. Presumably they determined that this gauge was more efficient and allowed higher speed etc. and laid down for all "main" Irish routes. Interesting then that nothing much was ever made of this with no doubt low maximum and average speeds applying all over Ireland until quite recent times.
Parts of Irish Rail still hark back to 1850. For example try a journey from Limerick Junction to Waterford (and formerly Rosslare) which will take you back a bit. I did this in 2009. Arrangements at Limerick Junction and along the route would bring back memories of places like Templecombe or Dorchester South, in times gone by. Other parts much more up to date.
My comments adequately address the track gauge isses. Either rebogie them or modify the existing Mk6 power bogies using new axles and shorterned crossmembers on the bogie frames.
The 450's are actually narrower than BR 150's if the data plates on the vehicle ends are anything to go by. I have the actual NIR tender document for them somewhere. BREL simply supplied BR loading gauge coaches to NIR / CIE / Iarnrod Ireann with wider footboards to bridge the gap. NIR / CIE lines being built to a larger loading gauge than the UK.
NIR / CIE lines being built to a larger loading gauge than the UK.
Northern Ireland can't have been built to a larger loading gauge than the UK as Northern Ireland is in the UK. It must be the case that different loading gauges were used within the UK.
The railways in Northern Ireland were built to a larger loading gauge as the track gauge was eventually standardised at 5'3" (after a brief flirtation with 6'2" gauge on one of the early routes South of Belfast). If what your trying to assert is correct the railways in Ireland would have been compelled to have been built to 4' 8.5" which clearly wasn't the case.
Photographs exist of CIE Cravens coaches coupled to former BR BSK's converted to steam heating vans in the 1970's the difference in loading gauge is very obvious. If you look at pictures of Iarnrod Eireann / NIR 201 class GM's coupled to Mk3 coaches the difference in the loading gauge is also very obvious.
The Great Central Railway (as was) was built to Berne / UIC loading gauge rather than the current British standard. The truth is that BR Mk1's were built to a loading gauge that allowed them to run over most routes, even then there were some lines from which they were barred such as the Culm Valley and Carlisle to Maryport.
If what your trying to assert is correct the railways in Ireland would have been compelled to have been built to 4' 8.5" which clearly wasn't the case.
No, what I'm saying is that there wasn't a UK gauge as if there was then Northern Ireland should breen required to use it. The standard gauge was only used in Great Britain and not all of the UK.
It would have made no difference as matters such as the overall size of the rolling stock / loading gauge were matters for each individual railway to determine provided they were to a minimum standard. The Irish Railways obviously thought slightly bigger was better, however when BREL supplied new and rebuilt stock to CIE / NIR they didn't offer vehicles modified to take account of the larger permisable loading gauge.
Quote from: Maxwell P on October 14, 2011, 11:00:08 am
I think you'll find that CIE / IR installed slab track on that bit to allow full IR loading gauge sized vehicles to pass through and past each other there without restriction. The CIE 'Cravens' coaches were slightly but significantly higher and wider than the BR Mk1 of the same period to take advantage of the loading gauge and they ran through that bit without problems. Iarnrod Eireann 201 class GM's can also run I believe so there cannot be a problem these days.
Suffice to say ex NIR 450's should be able to run on the Dartmoor Railway if you convert them to Standard track gauge and cut the footsteps back a bit....
Post by: Maxwell P on October 19, 2011, 03:49:02 pm
Interesting! Could they then, run Berne gauge kit in Eire? If so, it begs the question as to why CIE bought Mk3s off the shelf.
Do you happen to know the dimensions of the Irish loading gauge viz the UK standard?
Quote from: Maxwell P on October 19, 2011, 03:49:02 pm
It isn't a standard loading gauge in the UK though as Great Britain and Northern Ireland have different loading gauges.
No problem with that, I should have written Mainland Britain.
Bit of Youtube for which demonstrates the slight but significant difference in CIE / Iarnrod Eireann loading gauge stock and BR loading gauge stock. The steam generator van is converted from a former BR BSK coach. And its a little bit of History as the Waterford line is closed, as is th
Not sure, I shall see what I can find out. Basically I don't think Berne / UIC gauge kit will quite fit within the Irish kinematic envelope although having said that the BREL 'international train' demonstrator set based on Mk3 coach technology (built to a larger loading gauge than could be used on BR) did get exported to Iarnrod Eireann. Not that long since finished running with them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mb6LCyKVrhk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mb6LCyKVrhk)
Bit of Youtube for you which demonstrates the slight but significant difference in CIE / Iarnrod Eireann loading gauge stock and BR loading gauge stock. The steam generator van is converted from a former BR BSK coach. And its a little bit of History as the Waterford line is closed, as is that incarnation of Rosslare Europort station. The rolling stock has gone too. Why can't we have local trains like this?
From the Western Morning News (http://www.thisiscornwall.co.uk/Moving-station-reverse-town-s-decline/story-15762273-detail/story.html):
Moving station could reverse town's decline
Plans for a new station, which could mean a regular rail link between Exeter and Okehampton, are expected to win support from the county council.
Opportunity Okehampton is an ambitious scheme designed to reverse the decline of the town, which has been particularly badly hit by the recession, with the closure of several high-profile businesses. West Devon Borough Council is investigating a series of developments with the aim of creating employment and promoting growth and sustainable transport.
A proposal to relocate the town's railway station to a more convenient location is hoped to generate support for a case for a regular commuter service between Exeter and Okehampton, to expand on the current Sunday summer service.
On Wednesday, Devon County Council's cabinet will be invited to support a plan for a small station, along with a car park and shared footpath and cycleway. A report concludes that funding may be hard, but says opportunities may be presented by the outcome of the Local Sustainable Transport Fund bid, which seeks to expand access to Dartmoor and Exmoor, and by the re-tendering of the Great Western rail franchise.
I wonder if this means that bars have abandoned the idea of an open access route, I should know however I have not been upto okehampton in quite a while and things have gone quiet
I guess the station site will be on the B3260 (Exeter Road) and Fatherford Rd
If its the original plan I believe it's within the business park along with a freight terminal
Post by: trainbuff on April 09, 2012, 08:14:28 pm
Interesting. I am all up for a regular passenger service here. However, just to be pragmatic, how long would it take by rail to get to Exeter and how does this compare with road. I know there is a solid business case for the Tavistock reopening. 25 minutes by train versus over an hour by road in some cases.
Could this be the reason BAR has apparently dropped out?
I must state absolutely though that I wish to see this line reopened. Any surveys or studies that members can point in my direction would be appreciated.
I can be quite "anal" trawling through these!
Post by: Plymboi on April 10, 2012, 04:13:42 pm
Would this be along the existing line or a compeltely new line altogether, be a shame to not use the existing station which i beleive is beautiful station buildings!
Dents any possible Okehampton to Tavistock reopening!
I don't see why, but I expect the viaduct would be one of the most expensive costs of reopening the Okehampton to Tavistock section.
On the original line the current station would be retained I don't know if this new proposal would include running into the current station or to terminate at the new one
Post by: TonyK on April 11, 2012, 09:26:59 pm
Signed it (can't think why I hadn't done so before - sorry! :-[ ). Chris.
From Devon County Council Web Site
Devon County Councillors today (Wednesday 11 April) backed further plans to boost employment and business growth in Okehampton, agreeing to submit a planning application for a new train station east of the town.
The new station would link the town^s ^Opportunity Okehampton^ employment site with Exeter, and is close to the junction with the A30, so could serve a wider catchment area.
Members of the Council^s Cabinet also agreed to submit a revised planning application to broaden the scope of the employment site, to include non-food retail, distribution and a hotel, to permission previously granted for office and industrial land use and ancillary warehousing.
Funding for key infrastructure to open up the site would be drawn from the ^1.636 million allocated by the Council for commercial developments across Devon between 2012 and 2016/17, and would then be recouped as individual development plots are sold..
The town has been the focus of a great deal of support to businesses and local people seeking employment since a number of high profile business closures over the last 18 months.
Initiatives through the Council-coordinated Okehampton Works Partnership have provided over 140 people with employment training so far, with over 100 people finding new employment.
The County Council bought the employment site land from the Regional Development Agency last year with a view to it stimulating employment growth in the town, and has since been investigating the benefits for improving access by way of passenger rail services.
Okehampton^s existing railway station is not in a convenient location for many of the town^s residents, but a new shared footpath and cycleway as part of the new railway station development would link the new employment site to the existing housing and employment areas, as well as to the new station.
Some ^110,000 funding from Devon^s Local Transport Plan settlement funding would need to be allocated to the station, footpath/cycleway link and car park, to supplement ^250,000 which has already been committed from Devon County Council^s own resources.
The Council^s Cabinet Member responsible for Economic Development, Cllr Will Mumford, said:
^Developing an efficient business infrastructure is an essential building block to supporting the local economy. Making sure that the available employment site, which will complement the town^s existing Business Centre, has every opportunity to attract a wide range of business opportunities, and having the transport infrastructure to support it is critical.
^While the County Council is able to fund a significant amount of the work, further funding is needed. Establishing planning permission for a new small train station will improve our chances of success in attracting Government funding, and in improving passenger rail services to Okehampton, which is being re-tendered by the Department for Transport.
^There will also be a continuing need for travel between Okehampton and Exeter for work, education, retail and leisure purposes, and creating a sustainable low carbon rail alternative will accommodate growth in housing and employment without exacerbating highway congestion.^
Councillor Christine Marsh, local Member for Okehampton Rural, said:
^I am delighted. This is great news for Okehampton and, hopefully, is the next step in achieving an improved passenger rail service for the town that will boost tourism and employment opportunities for local people.
In view of these latest developments, I've moved this topic from 'Shorter journeys in Devon' to here, as it's clearly becoming a campaign for new and improved services. :)
From BBC Website
In a debate, Devon county councillors agreed that the town's existing station was not in a convenient location for many residents or potential commuters.
A new station would also create a full commuter service to Exeter, the council heard.
Funding was still needed, but planning permission was the first step towards securing the route, the council said.
No national rail services currently include the Okehampton station, which opened in 1871. The station also has no car park.
Some heritage trail trains do include Okehampton, and some of those routes run to Exeter.
But the Conservative-led authority said a new station in an appropriate location would mean a proper, regular commuter service could be created.
The plans would also include a new combination footpath and cyclepath, as well as links to existing housing, it added.
No carpark eh?
Looking at Google maps, and assuming the new station is next to the railway track, I wonder where it will go? Unless we have an Okehampton East as well as Okehampton West, I can't see the obvious spot that would not simply move the problem to the other side of town. I'm hoping to go there soon, for a look round, and a ride on the heritage stock.
Post by: 34104 on April 26, 2012, 06:05:00 pm
In todays Tavistock Times,there's a newspiece re the Granite way between Okehampton and Lydford,to the effect that the missing link between Southerly bridge and Station Road,Bridestowe has been subjected to compulsory purchase order action by DCC.Currently,you have to leave the trail at Southerly bridge and take the main road to the Fox and Hounds pub,thence onto the Bridestowe road,once the CPO is processed,the complete 9 miles between Oke and Lydford will be direct.I was under the impression that CPO's could only be taken out on old railway lines where the need had been proven for the railway to be reinstated,didn't realise that cycle paths could also be deemed to warrant CPO action.I wonder what the implications of this are for the land beyond Lydford? There is a short stretch of cycle/footpath for about half a mile outside of Tavistock towards Lydford,if that were to be joined up to the Lydford path,it really would be a superbly scenic route.Preferably by rail also in future,of course.
looks like the fgw service is not starting until the first sunday in june this year, tickets are available from most stations in devon for the few which you can not get the ticket from (gunnislake,axminster,honiton) the devon day ranger is valid, you can also get the dartmoor sunday rover again this year valid on most busses in devon aswell as the x53 from weymouth aswell as the okehampton branch and from barnstaple on the tarka line down to digby and sowton on the avocet line aswell as the gunnislake branch
Just an update the dartmoor Sunday rover ticket no longer covers stations on the tarka like between crediton and Barnstaple it is now stations from digby and sowton to okehampton and gunislake down to Plymouth the arrangement with local busses remains the same
Post by: TerminalJunkie on July 02, 2012, 08:34:59 pm
Quote from: relex109 on July 02, 2012, 08:10:06 pm
Just an update the dartmoor [sic] Sunday rover ticket no longer covers stations on the tarka [sic] like [sic] between crediton [sic] and Barnstaple
Someone needs to tell these people:
http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/devon_cornwall/tickets/dartmoor_sunday_rover/index.php
http://www.carfreedaysout.com/dartrover.html
http://www.journeydevon.info/greatjourneys/featured/dartmoor-sunday-rover.ashx
http://www.railrover.org/pages/dartmoor-sunday-rover.html
http://www.westerngreyhound.com/fares.php
http://www.avocetline.org.uk/summer-days-out/
And this leaflet will have to be re-printed:
http://www.journeydevon.info/_assets/pdf/dsr%20june12%20web.pdf
Your correct they will.... Or the latest fgw rangers and rovers leaflet will need reprinting
https://mobile.twitter.com/relex109/status/219880754329567232?photo=1
Oh and the western grayhound site lists the rover as 6.50 when it is 7.50 Infact posting all those links proves how badly promoted the rover is .... If you buy one on a certain bus operator chances are when you get on a bus from another company they eather point blank refuse to take you or it leads to an argument .... Yes this has happened many times
Post by: Southern Stag on July 02, 2012, 09:39:48 pm
The Manual states that the Dartmoor Sunday Rover is valid Exeter-Barnstaple, but then it doesn't mention it's validity from Crediton-Okehampton. The new FGW Ranger and Rover leaflet does have an error on the Oxfordshire Day Ranger map, Reading West has been relocated, between Tilehurst and Reading. I'd say it was still valid to Barnstaple, The Manual is generally right, but it's very odd it doesn't mention validity to Okehampton. The FGW leaflet map also misses out St James' Park to Digby & Sowton.
Post by: bignosemac on July 02, 2012, 11:13:32 pm
What is your source relex?
Others have pointed out numerous places were it is advertised as valid to Barnstaple. And 'The Manual' states:
Tickets are valid on rail services on the Tamar Valley line (Plymouth to Gunnislake), Tarka Line (Exeter to Barnstaple) and Exeter to Digby & Sowton. Note this ticket is NOT valid between Plymouth and Exeter St Davids.
This Rover is administered and funded by Devon County Council. They've not made an announcement of any changes in validity and have only recently published new leaflets.
So, enough places saying it IS valid. Who's saying it isn't relex?
The new FGW Ranger and Rover leaflet has a map for the Dartmoor Sunday Rover which doesn't include Crediton-Barnstaple on it, but as I said above it also doesn't include St James' Park-Digby & Sowton on it. I think it's an error rather than an intentional change of validity.
That leaflet new in may at stations is main source of information on rovers and rangers for passengers it is also the newest published source, being at home the same as most passengers I do not have access to the manual I expect an official upto date leaflet to be correct,clear, and concise .... And not miss parts of the validity
Can't find a copy of this leaflet on line so can't really comment on the errors. Is it just the map that is wrong with regard to the Dartmoor Sunday Rover, or is the text also clear that Crediton to Barnstaple is not permitted?
As I said earlier, this ticket is administered and funded by Devon County Council. I'd take their information as the primary source.
Only refers to the map for determining the valid area.
Post by: TonyK on September 05, 2012, 01:30:03 am
I found this leaflet (http://www.journeydevon.info/_assets/pdf/dsr%20june12%20web.pdf) and this page on FGW's site (http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/devon_cornwall/tickets/dartmoor_sunday_rover/index.php), which amazingly does not mention Okehampton. Nor does a search on http://www.thetrainline.com/ (http://www.thetrainline.com/) reveal the existence of any train to Okehampton. FGW's timetable number 34 does list the times (no point in showing the URL because it will cease in a fortnight), and if you persevere on the Devon County Council site, you will eventually find your way to the Journey Devon site mentioned above. The Dartmoor Railway site also publicises the Sunday trains from Exeter, but in a kind of "Oh, by the way" sort of method - see their timetable (http://www.dartmoor-railway.co.uk/tt-june2012a.pdf), and please correct me if I'm wrong about their efforts to attract visitors by rail.
Mrs FTN! and I rode the line from Crediton, where we have a daughter and a grandson, to Okehampton, where we do not knowingly have either, last Sunday (2 September). Even she enjoyed it, despite the cloud and drizzle. I figured that the major stumbling block to reopening the line for general use is the distance (uphill) from town. Fabulous glimpses of high peaks and valleys are of no consequence to Mr 9 to 5. But it was a lovely journey, not slow on the way up, despite the obvious climb, and not quite white knuckle on the way back.
We have decided that we will one day hence expend a further ^7.50 each, on a nicer Sunday, and get on the Tarka line at Umberleigh. We will change at Crediton for OKE, then get the bus from there to Gunnislake, followed by a nice ride back to Plymouth (stopping at Bere Alston to divert to Tavvy, who can say?), then probably pay for a ticket back to Exeter St D rather than take the free bus route. Life is too short for that.
The Dartmoor Sunday Rover exists only with the support of Devon County Council. I would love to see the Dartmoor Railway and FGW be able to offer a joint tourist ticket to enable any holiday-making family get from wherever they are in Devon to the nearest station by bus, and then to Meldon via Okehampton and Dartmoor Railway, all with one ticket that you can buy at any newsagent in Devon.
They do it in Denmark, and Germany, and Holland, and Belgium (obviously), and Sweden, and Norway, and...
on the other site of the gap ...... http://www.aggregate.com/PageFiles/805/Property-sale-Meldon-Aug-2012.pdf
Post by: trainbuff on October 10, 2012, 02:41:03 pm
I wonder what effect this potential sale will have on the Dartmoor Railway? For instance, does the line have to be kept opened and maintained?
Post by: Umberleigh on October 11, 2012, 09:50:19 am
Bit of a shocker after it had been assured the quarry was merely been mothballed.
The Dartmoor Railway have never been great at sharing information, with rumours of rifts and strife posted on other forums. They did recently move some ex-Virgin rolling stock (about 6 coaches?) from the sidings at Yeovil to Meldon, for use on "Polar Express" Christmas specials.
My initial feelings are that it could go either way; a Tavistock-style development that sees passengers service to Exeter reinstated or - heaven forbid - a cycle track, linked to a leisure development.
Post by: trainbuff on October 12, 2012, 09:08:18 am
Quote from: Umberleigh on October 11, 2012, 09:50:19 am
I hope the former is the case obviously. Mind you, there is part of the Great Western Franchise document that has an option listed for a service from st James park to Okehampton from 2016. I hope that this at least keeps the idiocy of line closure away! I wonder how much is wanted for the quarry and line or even if the line can be purchased seperately?
Post by: Andy on October 12, 2012, 04:57:21 pm
The Okehampton news will doubtless be moved to the Okehampton branch thread but to keep all the bits together till then, I'll post here.
Does anyone think there is any chance of the line at least as far as Okehampton being brought back into network ownership, given the murmurings in the franchise debates about some sort of regular service from Exeter - not to mention the old topic of the sea wall route threat?
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on October 12, 2012, 08:03:59 pm
Quote from: Andy on October 12, 2012, 04:57:21 pm
A good point - thanks for that gentle hint, Andy! Now done. :D
Post by: TonyK on October 12, 2012, 11:38:46 pm
Aggregate Industries own the line from Coleford Junction to Meldon. They lease the line to the railway, which is now owned by British American Railway Services, which was formed by Iowa Pacific Holdings to acquire the railway assets of Ealing Community Transport. Through another subsidiary, Devon and Cornwall Railway, they made an Open Access application for a 4 tpd service from Okehampton to Exeter St James, with an ambition to run one train daily to London. They also wanted to open a freight service. So far as I can tell, none of this is any nearer to happening yet, although the ORR gave it a cautious OK a year ago.
How an American company can cope with the traditional bureaucracy of Britain is not apparent. If they thought it was a simple case of filling in the right forms, they will know better by now. How it would affect or be affected by the priced option in the new franchise is not something I have the faintest idea of. There would be no barrier to them running services in addition to GWR, presumably? Or even sub-contracting the service from GWR?
Found this blog:
http://bars-blog.weebly.com/index.html
Up to date info on Devon & Cornwall Railway's fleet of 31's and 56's. Seems they're keeping them busy, however, it also seems that - ironically - they never venture into either Devon or Cornwall.
Good to hear that St James Park - Okehampton is included as an option in the new GW franchise.
Post by: TonyK on December 01, 2012, 01:16:07 pm
Not sure if this is the right place, but This is Devon (http://www.thisisdevon.co.uk/build-new-Plymouth-London-train-line-away-coast/story-17476633-detail/story.html) carries a tory from the Plymouth Herald, where transport expert Neil Mitchell calls for an inland route (are you here, Neil?) avoiding Dawlish.
Call to build new Plymouth to London train line away from the coast
Plymouth Herald
By KEITH ROSSITER Political Reporter
A TRANSPORT expert is calling for work to start on Westcountry rail links that were scuppered by Hitler 73 years ago.
After train services to London were twice cut in the past week, Neill Mitchell is urging the Government to look again at plans for a new railway line avoiding Dawlish, which were drawn up before the Second World War.
"It is simply not acceptable for the 21st century business, freight, tourism and leisure rail service in the peninsula to remain dependent on a solitary 'fair weather railway'," he said.
The rail line between Exeter and Newton Abbot was shut this week after a major landslip at Teignmouth followed by 14 smaller landslips on the route.
But the route's weakest point, and the cause of regular disruption, is the stretch along the sea wall at Dawlish.
Mr Mitchell said the problem was made more pressing now that Plymouth and its hinterland, with a combined population of about 400,000, had lost its direct air link to the capital.
He is calling for the Government to start by "drawing a line on the map" for a line which avoids the sea wall at Dawlish.
Plans for a "Dawlish Avoiding Line" were put forward by the Great Western Railway (GWR) in 1935 at a time when another Conservative-dominated coalition National Government was wrestling with the impact of global economic recession.
Mr Mitchell said GWR had planned a new line from Dawlish Warren to Newton Abbot "in minute detail, down to the level of drainage culverts and pedestrian accesses".
In 1936 Parliament approved a railway almost nine miles long from Newton Abbot, deviating near the rail bridge over the Hackney Canal Channel, and rejoining the main line north of Dawlish Warren station, alongside the River Exe Estuary.
A second Act in 1937 extended the route further northeast, past Kenton and Powderham, to Exminster, adding just over seven miles.
Surveying began early in 1939, and work was intended to be complete by January 1941. But in September 1939 Hitler invaded Poland and war broke out.
Nationalisation of the railways in 1947 was the death knell for the improvements.
Mr Mitchell said that re-routing of the main line away from the Dawlish sea wall would cost considerably less than the present Reading Station re-configuration scheme.
He called for strategic leadership from the new Cornwall and Heart of the South West Local Enterprise Partnerships together with Network Rail, the Department for Transport, the universities and the peninsula's MPs.
He said 21st century tunnelling economics and techniques could allow a more direct route, to high-speed rail standards, between Exeter St Thomas and Newton Abbot, via or beneath Haldon.
The existing scenic line along the sea wall should stay open to accommodate weekend engineering work diversions, local shuttle services and for its tourism potential.
Although rail services continued along the former LSWR/Southern main line to Waterloo via Okehampton until 1968, Mr Mitchell said this was not a suitable alternative to the Dawlish line because the bulk of Devon's economically productive population was along the southern route.
But he said it should brought back into use to reconnect West Devon and North Cornwall and to give Plymouth direct access to London Waterloo."
Meanwhile Gary Streeter, the Conservative MP for South West Devon, is calling on Network Rail to make repairs to the Great Western mainline a national priority.
"It's obvious we are not going to get electrification in Devon and Cornwall for many years therefore we must have urgent investment now in making our existing line more resilient and robust," he said.
COUNCIL CALLS FOR RAIL LIFELINE TO BE A PRIORITY
PLYMOUTH^S rail ^lifeline^ should be a national priority, the Government is being told.
After rail services were disrupted by floods in the past week, council leader Tudor Evans is demanding action to keep links to the peninsula open, whatever the weather.
City MP Oliver Colvile has also raised the issue in the House of Commons this week.
And a transport expert has renewed calls for a new line to by-pass storm-hit Dawlish.
Last week^s floods cut the rail link between Exeter and Tiverton and passengers were ferried between stations by bus.
The rail misery continued this week when the line between Newton Abbot and Exeter was closed by 15 landslips.
Now Cllr Evans is co-ordinating a letter from South West leaders to the Transport Minister.
He said the Government was committing huge investment to improve transport in areas of the country that are already very well connected.
^Is it too much to ask for tracks that allow train services to get to a chosen destination without the use of a bus?
^The South West has suffered from severe travel disruption. Not only do we find services suspended, but the replacement bus services themselves were delayed by flooding on the M5.^
Signatories to the letter include Cornwall, Devon and Somerset council leaders, the Mayor of Torbay and the chairs of the Cornwall and Heart of the South West Local Economic Partnerships.
Cllr Evans said: ^I understand we were dealing with extreme weather this time, but this isn^t a new issue and flooding happens all too frequently.
^We know where flooding is likely and we know there is a Government plan to tackle such issues.^
The Government^s 2011 document ^Climate Resilient Infrastructure^ features on its front cover a photo of the line at Dawlish, where services are frequently disrupted by weather.
Cllr Evans said: ^We are striving for economic growth in the region and have some excellent plans in place to create jobs and encourage businesses to the area including the South West Marine Energy Park.
^The Government recognises the economic value of fast, reliable transport links.^
He is calling on the Government to give the South West some priority. ^The DIY approach we are often forced to take just won^t cut it in this situation. We need investment in our travel infrastructure to enable us to deliver growth.
^The South West can no longer be viewed as the sleepy tourist destination of the UK. We will be asking to meet the Secretary of State for Transport to seek the necessary infrastructure needed.
^Unlike his Transport Minister, who did not travel to Exeter on Thursday, we are prepared to take the long and torturous journey to Westminster to move this agenda forward.
^We^ll be keeping up the pressure on Government so they understand the transport issues that threaten our ambitions for growth in the South West.^
Mr Colvile, the Tory MP for Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, raised the issue at transport questions in the Commons.
He called on Transport Minister Stephen Hammond to make an economic assessment of the impact of that on the Plymouth economy?
Mr Hammond said: ^I recognise that it has been extremely disruptive, but it is too early to undertake an economic assessment.
^The Government^s main priority at present is restoring services to all those affected by flooding.^
Post by: Umberleigh on December 04, 2012, 12:24:34 pm
It would be fantastic to see either the Old GWR proposal built or the Okehampton route reinstated, but surely the real problem is Cowley bridge - Tiverton i.e. the Exe valley? The landslip was secondary to the days of delay caused by flooding.
Certainly Umberleigh, but nothing that couldn't be sorted out by a Great Engineer. It might be easier (and cheaper) in the long run to do away with the embankments and raise both lines on concrete stilts, so letting the mighty Exe flow undisturbed below. Or not. I am a civil servant, not a civil engineer (worse luck), but if other experts agree that the events of the past couple of weeks are a pointer to the future, then I can't see it doing any harm.
Post by: trainer on December 06, 2012, 08:43:37 am
It seems to me, Four Track, that the best engineering in our country (and indeed others) was creatively imaginative. Plenty of other parts of the world have lifted their railways up on stilts to deal with obdurate nature and from the past we have the blessed IKB (Brunel) to thank for many 'ridiculous' engineering projects we still enjoy. What we don't have is an unquestioning cheap labour force to keep the costs down as did the Victorians - so pleasing progress in that area has an effect on what we can do with our country's budget.
Post by: ellendune on December 06, 2012, 06:45:18 pm
Quote from: Four Track, Now! on December 05, 2012, 11:35:25 pm
I am a civil engineer. But do not know the area well.
From the video I saw of Cowley Bridge Junction it seemed to me that the railway had become a weir for the flow from the branch river, suggesting that the bridge was not wide enough to take the flow. This then resulted in the flow along the line as well as washing out the embankment. If this is the case, lengthening the span of the bridge, both on the main line and on the branch might alleviate the problem without lifting the line significantly.
Of course there may be other points on that section of line that were affected that were not shown on the video.
Post by: Plymboi on December 12, 2012, 03:53:22 pm
Wouldn't the plans for a new station in okehampton hinder any chance left to rest abolish the link between Tavistock and okehampton?
Post by: swrural on December 13, 2012, 10:25:47 am
I could not understand the meaning of this message Plymboi. Could you clear up please?
Post by: RichardB on December 13, 2012, 10:30:06 am
Quote from: Plymboi on December 12, 2012, 03:53:22 pm
No, it won't hinder any possibility of one day possibly reestablishing the Tavistock - Okehampton line. The proposed new station would be a through one.
While on this, I've not heard anything about how the sale of the line is going.
Quote from: swrural on December 13, 2012, 10:25:47 am
It was meant to say ,reestablish the link' stupid iPad autocorrect :(
Quote from: RichardB on December 13, 2012, 10:30:06 am
Oh I see I assume it will be built along the existing line? Yeh I wonder what the update is regarding the line sale is, I would love for network rail to buy it :).
I have seen documentation about it. It's being referred to as Okehampton East. Plans are a one platform station. Plans on page 6 of the document.
http://www.devon.gov.uk/loadtrimdocument?url=&filename=EE/12/6.CMR&rn=12/WD403&dg=Public
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on December 16, 2012, 01:26:58 am
With my thanks to the most recent few posters here, I've now taken the opportunity to revise this topic heading to more accurately reflect what we are trying to achieve here. ;)
Post by: swrural on December 16, 2012, 07:34:48 pm
The key issue here is Tavistock viaduct. The last time I looked, there is a bungalow built across the formation, called 'Beeches', on the Callington Road to the west of the town and I believe, is the reason why the proposed line to Plymouth will finish just short of the missing bridge which crossed the Callington Road. (See GE and SV). Using the same software, look to the east of the central viaduct in Tavistock and you will see a line of houses that were allowed to be built just to the west of the old station, which itself is still intact. So that's about 5 or more compulsory purchases that have to be made. After that to the east, severing the West Devon District Council offices should be less of a problem and there is some cosmetic land infill near an old people's home that could be got rid of. After that, there may be one or two garden extensions on the moor by the people who bought the old stations as houses (but I noted on my own recce that they are railway enthusiasts).
My feeling is that the District council is not the kind that would promote reinstatement of the railway; if it were different, they would not have built their own scrappy offices over it, but I would be delighted to learn otherwise.
Quote from: swrural on December 16, 2012, 07:34:48 pm
West Devon council are fully in support of the reinstatement, in fact they are a main driver of the proposals they endorsed a leaflet in February this year outlining the project and about the public enquiry!
http://www.devon.gov.uk/120204_tavistock_railway_leaflet_8_gm.pdf
With respect, I believe you are writing about a different project, as is the leaflet you quote. Yes, that section south west of Tavistock to Bere Alston has indeed to be opened for the whole route from Plymouth to Exeter via Okehampton to be opened, but what I was writing about is the section between that end point and Meldon Quarry which encounters the difficulties, about which I posted.
If you can find a WDDC statement that endorses the changes and CPOs, I will be very pleasantly surprised, unlike the owners of those properties that would require CPO and demolition, I suspect. In fact the route protection would have to be written into the Local Plan and i don't think it is. I don't see how it could be, without an Inquiry Inspector first dealing with the 'difficulties'.
Post by: Umberleigh on March 15, 2013, 11:42:30 am
After a long period of inactivity, things are moving again on the Dartmoor Railway website:
http://www.dartmoor-railway-sa.org
Good news includes a return to steam for the Dartmoor Pony, and a forthcoming visit by a Bullied Pacific.
Also plenty of info and pics re the volunteers keeping the whole show on the road.
Post by: trainbuff on March 20, 2013, 02:14:18 pm
Not sure if this belongs in this area but the Dartmoor Railway has suspended all its services at Okehampton.
http://www.dartmoor-railway-sa.org/news
A similar thing is happening on the Weardale railway. See below and in attached link.
ED ELLIS, MANAGING DIRECTOR OF WEARDALE RAILWAYS CIC ANNOUNCES THE PLANS FOR SERVICES IN 2013
^We have waited to announce the plans for the Weardale Railway for 2013 until we had time to fully analyse last years results and then use that information to develop our plans for the future. The key element of the 2012 operations was the successful running of the first ever Polar Express operation in the UK. Iowa Pacific now operates the Polar Express on a total of 7 railways here in the UK and in the USA. In its first year the Weardale Railway Polar Express train carried over 37,000 passengers, which is more than were carried on any of the US railways we operate and was well ahead of our expectations.
The Polar Express and the coal trains from Wolsingham both made a substantial financial contribution, but when taking into account the Heritage train operation and other costs, the Weardale Railway made a loss in 2012, albeit at a lower level than in 2011 and earlier years.
Since it acquired a majority stake in the Railway, Iowa Pacific^s UK Subsidiary British American Railway Services has made a substantial financial investment in the Weardale Railway. This investment funded the connection to the main rail network and the maintenance and expansion of the infrastructure at Wolsingham and Bishop Auckland. It has now become time to consolidate the railway^s financial position by concentrating on activities that will make a positive contribution to the bottom line and help to pay off the substantial investment loans which have been made.
Our plans for 2013 will focus on three main operational elements. First, the continued operation of the freight traffic. These trains usually operate 5 or 6 days per week carrying coal to power stations and steelworks further south. We are pleased that last year every train from and to the network was operated without incident despite the extreme weather events of 2012.
Secondly, we plan to operate the Polar Express again in 2013. Again here the full timetable was operated and extra trains were laid on to cope with demand. This was achieved only with the heroic and dedicated efforts of the staff, both full time and temporary, supplemented by the volunteers of the Weardale Railway Trust. With the experience gained in marketing and operating last year we are planning to make this years ^Polar^ an even better experience for passengers.
Thirdly, we plan to run a service of ^Themed^ trains, concentrating on value added services such as Lunch, Afternoon Tea, and Evening Dining trains utilising the Mk 2 coaches and diesel haulage. At the moment we are finalising plans to operate over 100 of these trains, operating on approximately 75 days. We are targeting to start these services in May.
With the withdrawal of the Weardale Railway Trust^s steam locomotive for overhaul this year and the need for restoration work on some of the Mk 1 Heritage coaches, we have concluded that it will not be possible to run a financially viable Heritage service using hired in equipment. We will use 2013 as a year to consolidate and plan, jointly with the Trust, for services in 2014.
In the original 2012 timetable we scheduled passenger trains to run on 91 days. This year we envisage passenger trains running on over 110 days, including Polar Express, so this in no sense a retrenchment, it is a re-focusing of our operations aiming to put the Railway on a firmer financial footing.
All of this, together with the running of around 300 freight trains and the ongoing maintenance of the infrastructure, means that 2013 will be a busy year for our staff and volunteers and I look forward to continuing the work of redevelopment of the Weardale Railway with Durham County Council and the Weardale Railway Trust.^
Ed Ellis : 15 March 2013 (Taken from http://www.weardale-railway.org.uk/)
It appears as if the US parent company wish to only run trains that are profitable. I guess fairly obviously as they are a business, but what impact will this have on the line. The Polar Express sounds like it did well and the Dining Services. What will happen to The Dartmoor Rover, The Railway itself and Meldon? Any thoughts? :'(
Thanks for posting that update, trainbuff.
Purely in the interests of continuity, I've moved your post here and merged it with this ongoing discussion on the future of the Okehampton branch.
Going back to the start when bars took over, it was made clear that the main priority was to establish new freight contracts and the maintanance side of the business (rms locotec), the heritage side was not a priority infact initially I do not belive it was even a goal, I'm not going to speculate on the reasons but I will say I doubt this will alter the likelyhood of any potential mainline services which may be included in the future gw franchise
Post by: Plymboi on March 20, 2013, 09:31:09 pm
Beginning of the end for the okehampton branch? Odd moe wonder whats prompted them to suspend services.
Quote from: Plymboi on March 20, 2013, 09:31:09 pm
How do you draw that conclusion? The profitable services have not been suspended, heritage is suspended pending clarification, if the number of passengers on the heritage services is not covering the running cost then in the long run it is better to stop and assess things, the main goal is and always has been to get main line services to Exeter reinstated, we will probably never know what the individual toc's bids had in mind for the withered arm if anything, and we now have a long wait to find out so i I doubt we will see anything running with passengers during the week to Exeter any time soon
To wrap up end of heritage operations .... I really hope not, end of the line as a whole I really doubt it
Just looking at the DRSA website, I see they are running a service between Okehampton and Meldon tomorrow (Sunday 24).
Well worth going along, especially if it is something you haven't done before.
Is rolling stock the main reason why national rail services are not available on the okehampton line?
No, although availability of rolling stock is an issue, it's more to do with the pathetic amount of red tape 'needed'
Post by: swrural on March 23, 2013, 01:37:44 pm
A few years ago I took a trip on the summer Sunday special. It was terrifying, as the line side greenery, although presumably adequately cut back for the stone trains, was whipping against the class 143 windows (was it? -one of those bus things, anyway) and must have inflicted big scratch damage. The windows were filthy anyway, so negating the whole point of the excursion. >:( My wife and I had another go a year ago and it was much better, but it came home to me that a fair amount of work would be required to resurrect it as a mainline diversionary route.
Post by: Umberleigh on March 23, 2013, 02:57:15 pm
So who actually owns the 19 mile Dartmoor Railway?
In the last year we have been told that Aggregate Industries owns it, and has put the line up for sale:
http://www.aggregate.com/PageFiles/805/Property-sale-Meldon-Aug-2012.pdf
... but we are also told that BARS (subsidiary of Iowa Pacific Holdings) own the line, call the shots over the heritage operation, plan to introduce passenger services, freight, etc.
Anyone else confused?
Do they not pay the insurance and fuel costs? Would say that gives them permission to say to be honest :-), I dont know the exact arrangement as to how the line is rented out to the railway, but that's irrelevant really the situation can be compared to a shop (which is leased) deciding not to stock a certain brand.... Would this be down to the person or company that owns the building or the person which rents and runs the shop :o
Doyle post
Unless mispelt or being used out of context, I do belive our dear boy was suggesting one may have been drunk :-p, been there seen it ... Can't quite remember
Post by: caliwag on May 01, 2013, 10:02:53 am
Haha...even Bude and Halwell get a mention here...
http://www.okehampton-today.co.uk/news.cfm?id=12606
Post by: TerminalJunkie on May 01, 2013, 11:29:21 am
Quote from: 6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01 on March 28, 2013, 02:57:31 pm
mispelt
*snort* http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=mispelt
Post by: 6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01 on May 01, 2013, 11:37:42 am
Still have that character defect?
Post by: 34104 on May 01, 2013, 06:34:19 pm
Quote from: caliwag on May 01, 2013, 10:02:53 am
Quite a few obstructions on the Okehampton-Bude line now.The dual carriageway which breached the line about half a mile from Meldon junction would need to be bridged,i think there's an infilled cutting not far down the line.Holsworthy is now a supermarket and Halwill a housing estate but i think both could have room to sneak a railway through if the will was there.Bude is also a housing estate,could probably build a new station a la Tavistock more towards the outskirts though.Pretty major cost implications and i don't think that the councillors were actually suggesting that the Bude line should re-open,more that other forms of transport should link into any full time reopened Okehampton railway.We can but dream though.
Post by: alexross42 on May 13, 2013, 12:10:28 pm
An interesting section is published in the West Devon Borough Council's 'Tavistock Masterplan Document' that was produced 30th April 2013 with regard to the new station at Tavistock (http://www.westdevon.gov.uk/CHttpHandler.ashx?id=4469&p=0)
5.14 North of the planned railway station and access road, no further development should
take place along the length of the old railway line that would restrict a possible eventual
relaying of the line and rail link to Okehampton. However it is important to note that this
will be challenging to deliver and is not currently being developed as part of the on-going
rail project.
So at least further potential obstacles to re-opening this stretch are being kept in consideration even if there are currently no solid plans to provide this link.
Post by: Plymboi on May 18, 2013, 01:28:32 pm
Found this article
http://www.thisisplymouth.co.uk/Reopened-pound-100million-rail-route-Okehampton/story-18605657-detail/story.html#axzz2Te8XPlUh
I like the fact talk of the reopening line is gathering pace. It's a good sign.
Post by: paul7575 on May 18, 2013, 01:44:52 pm
He seems a bit off the pace regarding the Tavistock proposal doesn't he?
A plan to reopen one section of the line, the 5.5-mile piece from Tavistock to Bere Alston, has been discussed for several years. Kilbride Community Rail says it would fund the building through the development of about 750 houses in Tavistock. But Mr Henshaw said: "That is an awful lot for a private company to do. I am sceptical about that ever happening. It has drifted for years."
Anyone else think that in a country where it can cost up to 5 million pounds for a platform that 100 million is slightly underestimating it? ... i have no doubt that it could be done for that much if not less.... someone must be doing very well from all these overpriced projects
Post by: grahame on May 18, 2013, 05:53:36 pm
Quote from: 6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01 on May 18, 2013, 05:37:48 pm
... i have no doubt that it could be done for that much if not less.... someone must be doing very well from all these overpriced projects
As Network Rail is owned by the public, perhaps that financial equation is something to ask one of their public members about? See http://www.networkrail.co.uk/structure-and-governance/members/biographies/ http://www.networkrail.co.uk/aspx/5624.aspx and http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=12282.0
Post by: 34104 on February 05, 2014, 09:05:17 pm
Surely this must become a red hot discussion topic in the corridors of power at both local and national level in view of recent events at Dawlish?
Post by: AMLAG on February 05, 2014, 09:53:57 pm
ABSOLUTELY 34104 !
Whilst 'the non thinking outside the box' NR in its 'situational briefing' issued today on the Dawlish sea wall major incident, whilst waiting for Consultants & Contractors ideas on how to fill the gaping holes (surely it still has a few ex BR Managers with such experience and inside 'whole industry' knowledge ?) almost dismisses the potential for reopening Meldon to Tavistock/Bere Alston, as an alternative route for Plymouth and Cornwall rail traffic, the Government and the PM may be thinking otherwise.
Just imagine the potential for a high speed route on the mostly straight line from Exeter to Okehampton..even in steam days it had a max of 85mph; with a new Parkway road /rail interchange station at Sourton next to the A30/A382 Junction,that could be the railhead for many in Cornwall and prevent the increasing number of rail passengers driving to Tiverton Parkway because the winding & steeply graded South Devon line is so slow.
Restoration of Meldon to Tavistock/Bere Alston should be much simpler and cheaper compared to the extensive works now in progress, courtesy of the Scottish Govt., to restore over 30 miles of the former Waverley Route from Edinburgh to Galashiels closed 1969.
This project has not only seen numerous houses demolished but large new bridges built,roads & utilities diverted, completely new alignments in places for the railway, major Tunnel works, drainage, earthworks and the numerous steel bridges refurbished or replaced.
Post by: Plymboi on February 06, 2014, 10:16:17 am
This is gathering momentum. Loads of calls for reinstatement now. Petitions are doing the rounds. And the sec of state has announced a government review into looking at options of alternative rail link.
http://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/Minister-promises-look-alternative-rail-route-SW/story-20566246-detail/story.html
Post by: eightf48544 on February 06, 2014, 11:50:52 am
Isn't there some where on coffee shop in relation to re-opening teh line form Okehampton to Bere Alston something about Network Rail saying it wouldn't be needed for 50? (anyrate a long time) years as the Dawkish seawall was Ok funtil then.
Not a bad estimate!
Post by: TonyK on February 06, 2014, 03:44:09 pm
Quote from: Plymboi on February 06, 2014, 10:16:17 am
This is gathering momentum. Loads of calls for reinstatement now.
Suddenly, it seems a no-brainer. Having only one route into Cornwall was always a problem waiting to happen.
Post by: trainbuff on February 06, 2014, 05:16:39 pm
I agree with the statements about re-opening. However being a cynic I will say what will happen is the review of transport links will take place, but by that time the line will be re-opened and suddenly it will not be financially viable once more. That will be tucked away quietly in a small piece of news on page 26 of the Newspaper!
I hope I am wrong.
Post by: Trowres on February 06, 2014, 11:20:05 pm
Playing devil's advocate, perhaps, but would someone care to comment on the apparent contradiction between the "essential" nature of the rail link to Plymouth and the other comments stating that people drive to Tiverton because it's faster than the [Exeter-Plymouth] section?
Post by: bignosemac on February 07, 2014, 02:51:54 am
Essential for those that don't have a car perhaps?
Many don't drive, I for one. And for me that means not taking any jobs west of Exeter currently.
Post by: 34104 on February 07, 2014, 10:42:13 am
Western Morning News starting a campaign;
http://www.westernmorningnews.co.uk/WMN-leads-calls-permanent-solution-Dawlish-rail/story-20576777-detail/story.html
Good for them.
Post by: Umberleigh on February 07, 2014, 11:59:40 am
Quote from: trainbuff on February 06, 2014, 05:16:39 pm
Sadly I agree. However, there will perhaps never be a better time than now to push for this.
The Government has the money, it is peanuts compared to HS2, as others have pointed out.
For the cost of one fighter jet we could have a new rail link that will last for generations
Yes Umberleigh is right. Now is the best time to push for this. However, there are too many people living in Torbay, Newton Abbot et al to ignore. Maybe the thing to push for is the Okehampton line to be single with passing places so available if there are similar incidents while strengthening the Sea Wall. I have signed the petition. In fact I did one on the same subject a couple of years ago. Timing is perfect now. Maybe someone should contact the Western Morning News to publicise?
Post by: autotank on February 07, 2014, 12:20:41 pm
I really hope the rail industry grabs this opportunity to reopen the Okehampton route - surely this mini natural disaster will really focus politicians minds and make the case much easier to push through for funding.
In order for the line to be of more use than just for emergency diversions, a proper job needs to be done though with a full upgrade of the existing parts of the route and a substantial amount of double track and decent linespeeds. The weak link in the chain then becomes Cowley Bridge Junction - how have the repairs doen last year coped with the rain this year?
I agree the sea wall strech needs to remain the main rail route to Plymouth. But this shouldn't be an excuse for doing the LSW route on the cheap as I think in time it can generate significant flows and be a vital back up route. The obvious thing to do would be to extend a few Waterloo services a day through to Plymouth supplemented by something like an hourly stopping Exeter - Crediton - Okehampton - Tavistock - Bere Alston - Plymouth service and an every other hour service to Gunnislake from Plymouth.
Was the line double track throughout originally? What sort of linespeeds could be achieved realistically? Obviously it would be key to double the Cowley Bridge Junction - Crediton section which would also help future service improvements on the Barnstaple line.
This route was built piecemeal. originally Meldon Viaduct was single track. However it was soon doubled. The route from Lydford to Plymouth built by the grandly titled Plymouth, Devonport and South Western Junction Railway (PDSWJR) was completed in 1890 as a double track mainline. For much of the time in Southern hands the route from Bridestowe (I think it is where the speed restriction was applied), the speed was 40 mph. But this was purely as a cost saving measure to reduce maintenance on the track. The route is no more curvy than the present one via the coast.
Speeds of 60mph could easily be reached. Higher is achievable. Maybe 85 or 90mph There are and were areas where there were speed checks though. The curve at Coleford Junction had a 40mph check and Meldon viaduct itself had 20mph. There may be others.
I know that is not definitive but if you want to know more there are some excellent books about the line. Currently the line speed from Coleford Junction up to Okehampton is I believe a maximum of 60mph. I am sure someone knows more about this so I will leave them to correct or give more information :)
Is this the petition we should sign or is there another? http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/60320
Quote from: autotank on February 07, 2014, 12:36:22 pm
Sign both! There is another one here that is on this forum and has more signatures at the moment
http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/60302
Post by: Lee on February 07, 2014, 01:46:58 pm
Is there a consensus on a viable route through Tavistock?
Post by: Umberleigh on February 07, 2014, 01:57:53 pm
The route from Exeter to Okehampton is pretty much straight and flat. Investment could raise line speeds eg close salmon pool crossing. I see no reason why line speeds could not be similar to Exeter - Salisbury. The Tamar Valley line is also straight (but a bit of a climb up from Plymouth) and could be fast. From what I have seen of the closed section, it is also pretty much straight.
Remember, the existing GWR route was envisaged as an atmospheric railway and so was not as heavily engineered as the solid SR route, the closed sections of which are still in good condition half a century on.
However, closing the coast route is a no-no due to the populations it serves. However, the GWR always envisaged (and nearly constructed) a fast inland bypass. And so, as much I would love to see the SR route reopened, a tunnel under the Haldon hills is surely the most logical, with the coastal route singled.
Why? Because the running costs of a diversion would be less than that of two separate railways. The SR route would be well used in the summer, but less so in the winter. It is also prone to disruption from snow, and none of us know if we will be getting more or less of the white stuff ten years from now.
Post by: Andy on February 07, 2014, 02:33:23 pm
Reopening the line between Tavistock and Okehampton (I'm taking it for granted that Bere Alston-Tavistock will reopen) would have more benefits than just providing a diversion route.
Although, as already mentioned many times, it runs through relatively sparsely populated country, it would provide a much closer railhead for a wide catchment area spanning North Cornwall and North and West Devon. generating new custom and reducing road/bus journeys.
Okehampton services sharing the Exeter-Yeoford stretch would, I imagine, reduce overcrowding on Barnstaple services, too.
I'd be interested to read what kind of service would be best for this route. How would a regular service pattern consisting of a Tavistock-Plymouth commuter shuttle interconnecting at Bere Alston with a Gunnislake-Exeter service compare with a Plymouth-Exeter service connecting with a Bere Alston-Gunnislake shuttle?
By the time such a link could be reinstated there will have been a cascade of suitable 3 car dmus to operate an hourly Exeter to Plymouth service.
However, if this route proves faster and more reliable than the coastal one, perhaps rebuild it to mainline standards and operate the GWR line as a secondary line and all high speed services to operate via Okehampton.
Post by: bignosemac on February 07, 2014, 03:41:51 pm
The reversal would add a considerable amount of time to through services though. That reversal can be taken out though if through services from Waterloo were considered, but that won't be as quick a journey to Plymouth as is currently offered (when everything is open!) by the route from Paddington.
I'd prefer to see an inland route built, to modern high speed standards, between Exeter and Newton Abbot. Something the GWR were set to do in the late 1930s, before the Second World War put the kybosh on the plans.
Post by: Red Squirrel on February 07, 2014, 05:57:36 pm
Quote from: bignosemac on February 07, 2014, 03:41:51 pm
I can see the benefits of this, but it's hard to imagine it getting off the ground - I'm guessing you'd have to put pretty much the whole thing in tunnels to appease the environmental lobby, which would cost a few orders of magnitude more than reopening the LSWR route.
Post by: wabbit on February 07, 2014, 06:47:53 pm
One direct effect of faster connections from the West Country would be to increase the amount of people who would shift from cars to rail, but if that was linked in with new housing developments, served by rail, you could have a viable series of routes both sea side and inland. It needs a properly joined up approach from local government and NR. Fingers crossed!
NR in its 'Situational Awareness' Briefing note issued on 5/2/14 with regards to the Dawlish Sea wall major incident, states it has no plans to promote re-opening of the former main line from Exeter to Plymouth via Okehampton & Tavistock and mentions a few negative facts such as rebuilding of a Viaduct at Okehampton (possibly this is a reference to Meldon) and that the disused former railway land is in multi ownership .. ignoring the fact that over 10 miles of infrastructure are now resurrected and maintained as a cycle track in the hands of one owner.
Well so be it.. the Government is now reviewing all options and it may think otherwise - just as Devon County Council does with regards to reopening Bere Alston to Tavistock and some may be surprised to learn that it is DCC NOT NR who is now acquiring the disused railway trackbed,land and infrastructure to enable this to be done.
A quick 'back of a fag packet' calculation shows the potential population to be served by a re-instated Exeter/Okehampton/Sourton Parkway/Tavistock/Plymouth alternative & diversionary rail route to be significantly greater than the population to be served by the far more challenging 30+ miles of railway currently being re-instated by the Scottish Govt. between Galashiels & Edinburgh for opening in 2015.
I imagine the M5 was built on land owned by a multitude of owners, ditto every bypass, dual carriageway and motorway built ever. Oh, and HS2. And I'm sure a new viaduct at Meldon would cost less than ^42bn. Seriously NR, what feeble excuses.
Quote from: Red Squirrel on February 07, 2014, 05:57:36 pm
The whole of HS2 isn't going into tunnels to appease enviromentalists. No reason why an inland route has to do so. Branch off at Exminster, head due south to the left of Malmhead, then head south west to the south of Ashcombe and Ideford Common, following the river valley (Dawlish Water?) and then run parallel to the A380 into Newton Abbot. Sparsely populated land and possibly only a need for tunneling under the Powderham estate and to the west of Kenton. Around 15 miles of new build. Compared with a similar length of rebuilding between Okehampton and Tavistock, but without the need for services from London Paddington to Cornwall to reverse twice.
Does anyone know of the cost per mile of new build double track railway versus reinstating and upgrading 50 year old abandoned permanent way to modern double track standard? Remembering that the latter would have to go through the centre of Tavistock. I imagine the cost difference is pretty marginal.
A thorough cost/benefit analysis of all options should be carried out. My preference is for an inland 'GWR' route, but if reinstating Okehampton - Tavistock/Bere Alston and upgrading the existing stubs to modern mainline standards comes out as the considerably better value for money option, then I'm happy for that to be the alternative route to Plymouth and Cornwall. Won't help Torbay though.
Quote from: Lee on February 07, 2014, 01:46:58 pm
Anyone?? Or are we just drawing an undetermined line on the map through the town at this stage?
Re-instatement through Tavistock via the former Southern (Tavistock North stn) route..a few houses to demolish; none of significant/historic/listed value....nothing like on the scale of the Galashiels/Edinburgh re-instatement though.
A new bridge (concrete?) would be needed over the Tavistock/Callington road ..was one of the very few steel bridges between Meldon and Bere Alston ..cut up for scrap.
Partial reduction in size of the West Devon Borough Council offices built so shortsightedly by them (!!) on railway formation and mainly in the old Upside Goods Yard.
WDBC like most Councils, is now constantly down sizing/outsourcing/combining functions with other Councils etc and in any case(if they survive) may have to vacate to smaller premises for their shrinking staff.
I'd have thought there was only one possible route and that would be the one that was used before 1968.For sure there has been some encroachment on the line-infill at the back of Kelly College,the WDBC offices and housing on the site of Tavistock North station and a bungalow across the line near the broken bridge over Callington Road.There would doubtless be much wailing and gnashing of teeth from parties affected [understandably so,to be fair] but any CPO action would be rather minor compared to the works carried out in rebuilding the Borders railway.I can't really think of any other way that Tavistock could accomodate any reopened railway,open to suggestions of course.
Would a new station be built in the centre of Tavistock, and if so, in which precise location? Would a station also still be built at the site earmarked in the current Tavistock-Bere Alston proposal.
In the Borders scheme, how many people have been forced out of their homes in centres of population comparable to Tavistock, and what has their reaction been to that?
Good question actually,in all truth it would be better to have a station closer to Tavistock town centre than the one proposed in the current plans.I suppose the ideal site would still be Tavistock North,the down platform and buildings of which still exist-couldn't see any reason why it shouldn't become a working station again if the appropriate clearance took place.As for the Borders railway,not sure how many but it was a substantial number and people did get upset;
http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/38527-borders-railway-progress/page-5
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=59833&page=2
Post by: chopper1944 on February 08, 2014, 04:39:15 am
Wasn't there a limitation on the type of locomotive able to cross meldon viaduct?
Would a HST be able to cross it or any of the proposed new trains to be made available
Following electrification of the GWML?
Post by: trainbuff on February 08, 2014, 05:23:44 am
Quote from: chopper1944 on February 08, 2014, 04:39:15 am
There were weight restrictions. Up until the 1960's for instance, only unrebuilt Bulleid pacifics could us the route. Rebuilds weighing more. Meldon was strengthened in the 1960's though. It has been used more recently than that though and retained track as a railhead on the former up line till the 1990's. Used as a headshunt for stone trains!!! I cant think of anything heavier. The former up line was used as a road to take stone to the building of Meldon Resevoir.
I think part of the argument about closing the line in 1968 was about weight concerns on this viaduct. Though as seen before often reasons put forward were disingenious to say the least. Of course it now carries a cyclepath and footway and was made safe to carry only that weight when the charity that owns it renovated. It would need looking at again to check weight limits
Post by: AMLAG on February 08, 2014, 09:40:38 am
The Up line from Meldon Jn to Meldon Quarry, ie. over Meldon Viaduct, was taken out of use on 24/4/66 with all trains thence using the Down line as a Single line.
However in connection with track alterations (carried out mainly by the excellent former Tavistock North PW gang -who were retained after May 1968 when Meldon-Bere Alston was closed as an 'Extra gang' by the Plymouth District Civil Engineer) at Meldon Quarry in the 1970's, the closed off but still intact former Up line was RE-INSTATED as a long headshunt for the Quarry with 2 track panels relaid just off the Plymouth end of the Viaduct.
The heaviest Diesel loco on BR at the time; a Class 46 'Peak' loco (139 tons with an axle weight of nearly 17.5 tons) was tested and the test proved satisfactory and the former Up line was thence permitted, without loco restrictions, to be used again; and this continued for some years.
Today's modern multiple unit trains of course have much lighter axle loads.
Post by: Red Squirrel on February 08, 2014, 11:36:53 am
I am persuaded! As is the Plymouth Herald:
Read more: http://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/build-new-Plymouth-London-train-line-away-coast/story-17476633-detail/story.html
I see from this article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dawlish_Avoiding_Line) that the powers to build the diversion only lapsed in 1999...
Quote from: AMLAG on February 08, 2014, 09:40:38 am
Thanks AMLAG. Clarifies for me. I think my comments were a little innacurate so thanks for putting me right by someone who knows! Good to know about the weight of the loco as well. :)
Post by: John R on February 08, 2014, 12:27:48 pm
I would have thought that a new line would have been preferable. From Exminster to Newton Abbott would be around 10 miles, so even if some were in tunnel it's not going to run into billions. And just think, it would be a new line that would have almost unanimous local support (that's a novel thought), could shave 7 or 8 minutes off the journey time, and would in future years be easier to electrify than the coast route would be (or more accurately, wouldn't have the problems of an electrified railway being bashed by waves).
The route via Okehampton would be slower than the current route. Thus I can't see any appetite to use it other than as a diversionary route, and for a local service. Which is then a lot of money to spend on something which isn't going to get the use to justify the cost involved.
I took the train to Okehampton last summer, just for fun. Very nice too!
Post by: ellendune on February 08, 2014, 01:19:33 pm
Quote from: John R on February 08, 2014, 12:27:48 pm
I agree with you on almost all counts. There would be local opposition - from those towns (Starcross, Dawlish Warren, Dawlish and Teignmouth) that would be by-passed by the route. Logic says that local trains would still go this way, but who would pay for the upkeep of such an expensive line just for these stations?
Of course close the line at other would have to pick up the price for the sea defences so remove that cost and it might be more reasonable. However it would still require subsidy.
If the coastal line were singled, what that provide extra space to build up the flood defences?
Very interesting re Meldon viaduct. I knew it had been retained as a headhunt but thanks for the new information. I'm certainly now questioning the assumption that it would be too frail for a HST or a 57. Perhaps someone should have a word with NR?
Quote from: Umberleigh on February 08, 2014, 10:18:16 pm
An idea, but the normal way would be to build on the seaward side of the existing defences.
Depends on what maintenance has been done to it since. If it has not been painted for a few years it might not be as strong now.
Singling the most vulnerable section and building a higher & thicker wall on the current Down line formation might be feasible and/or possibly installing slab track ..but then if a void is created by the sea under slab track that could well make it more difficult to restore the line (the ballast was glued on the stretch from Dawlish stn to the first Tunnel several years ago and with some success until recently).
However the current volume of passenger traffic through Dawlish with some single line would cause a bottleneck and another performance nightmare.
It needs to be remembered that in Dr David Spaven's list of the worst Beeching Cuts that the Southern Exeter/Okehampton/Tavistock/Plymouth route was judged to be in the top 12.
At public consultations held in Tavistock in recent years concerning plans to reopen Tavistock to Bere Alston a significant number of people voiced their wish for a direct rail link to Exeter via Okehampton instead of them having to drive to Exeter or Tiverton Parkway.
In 1996 a ^650K contract saw Meldon Viaduct (1874/78) refurbished including new timber decking, handrails, steel work repairs, complete protective painting, repairs to the masonry in the abutments and protection of the piers from scour by the river. On a recent visit I could find no rust scale ..unlike some operational bridges.
It is good to see the main Petition for an Alternative/Diversionary route for Plymouth & Cornwall rail traffic has almost doubled in a day to reach nearly 550.
For those not yet aware this is it :-
I'd be signing that petition if it included the inland route as an option. As I said upthread, all options should be looked at and properly costed. Impact and socio-economic benefits need to be assessed. Concentrating on the former LSWR route does nothing to assist Torbay's transport connections when there are issues with the existing line.
Post by: trainer on February 09, 2014, 10:58:18 am
I agree with BNM that we cannot abandon Torbay, one of the West's (if not the UK's) premier tourist areas, so the line, in one form or another, will take priority in funding. The logic of that is that the Okehampton/Tavistock route will probably be only considered as a diversionary route as the population doesn't warrant a full scale double track line - although a local service would be welcome no doubt. In the current climate of 'austerity', I suspect only one route will get the money. It would be astounding if money were found for a new/restored 'Southern' route and a line nearer the current route.
Of course, if Devon and Cornwall left the UK and formed an alliance with an independent Scotland things might be different ;D.
Post by: John R on February 09, 2014, 11:18:36 am
That's why I think a new line from Exminster to Newton Abbott is the better option. It'll give journey time benefits all year round, both to Torbay and Cornwall. The existing line would be retained for local traffic (Network Rail need to maintain the sea defences anyway unless someone relieves them of that obligation).
My view would be that the sea wall should be repaired as quickly as possible and the line restored, followed by a firm plan to reopen Okehampton Bere Alston as a diversionary route with a local and perhaps even a couple of London trains whilst plans are draw up for an inland route from Exeter to Newton Abbot which it seems will be required in the next 40 years.
Also at the same time complete redoubling from Castle Cary to Pinhoe (?) should be considered.
The one good thing to come out theese disruptions is hopefully the growing realisation in government that rail is only form of viable long distance transport to areas such as the West Country.
Taking BNM's points on board, and a little googling around the Dawlish Avoiding Line, has completely persuaded me that the DAL is the way forward.
However given that the sea wall has to be maintained, and that around 30,000 people live in Dawlish and Teignmouth, the coastal route should be kept for local services. A single line (with perhaps a loop at Dawlish Warren?) would surely suffice for that, giving scope to beef up the sea wall.
Much as I'd love to see the LSWR route restored, I can't see how you could justify it.
Post by: smokey on February 09, 2014, 12:31:17 pm
The May 1968 closure of the "Southern" line from Okehampton (more correctly from Meldon) to Bere Alston WASN'T popular with the operating department of BR.
Cost savings such as De-staffing of stations, reductions in signal boxes etc could have been made (but the NUR wasn't up for anything like that) but the biggest reason given to close the line was the state of Meldon viaduct and the cost of it's maintenance.
Ok there was a speed restriction on Meldon viaduct of 20 MPH, but that hardly effects a railway line, take the Royal Albert Bridge at Saltash a similar length to Meldon with a 15 MPH restriction.
And if Meldon was in such a poor state why was it used as a Head Shunt for Heavy Loaded stone trains up till the late 1980's?
The Loss of the Southern line was unforgiveable, how many realise that during 1969 during a breach of the Seawall at Dawlish, whilst passengers had to transfer to road services from Exeter to Newton Abbot BR ran at least 2 trains fron Exeter to Plymouth via Okehampton and Tavistock.
Indeed concern about the coastal section of the Exeter-Plymouth line saw BR buying back parts of the trackbed of the Teign Valley line, which at one time gave a second route between Exeter and Newton Abbot.
With a 20 mile gap between Meldon and Bere Alston, and 1/3 of that to reopen under the plans for Tavistock to regain Trains, it's an inexpensive option (as opposed to new lines) to rebuild Meldon to Bere Alston.
So one year after closing the line, the first rail replacement busses made an appearance? Take a bow, Dr Beeching.
The Teign Valley Line must have been a delightful route, but sadly development in Exeter and road schemes have surely made this a non-option. If you are going to have to start building new bits, then you may as well go the whole hog and build the DAL.
The Okehampton route is also devoid of development in comparison, is well engineered and could be fast. The assertion that Meldon viaduct is unsound has been thrown wide open, and starting too look like more dirty tactics by Beeching's crew. Also, we are talking a multi-million pound reopening, not a dozen volunteers with some donated sleepers and cast-off rail (no offence, preservationists!).
But, the Okehampton route would be expensive to maintain, and almost certainly be a burden on the taxpayer. It was and would be vulnerable to heavy snow: imagine the headlines if the new ^100 Million + link is closed the very first time it is needed as a diversionary route.
However, if and when Tavistock is a roaring success as it undoubtedly will be, then I can at least foresee Okehampton getting its services back. But I'm still dubious there would be sufficient traffic between the two to make a restored link viable, although I would be ecstatic to be proven wrong!
For the people of Starcross, Dawlish and Teignmouth to lose their rail link would be a tragedy, however the needs of an entire County and the largest city west of Bristol are greater. If one section of the sea wall can collapse, what about the rest? Just how sound is it after decades of battering by the sea? NR certainly didn't see this coming. Difficult decisions will need to be made.
Teignmouth itself could have a shuttle service to Newton Abbot, especially given that the DAL would knock a few minutes off of the journey times compensate. Starcross is tiny and has a good bus service to Exeter (or even to a new station at Exminster). That just leaves Dawlish: I don't need to give you a list of the stations that lose their services during disruptions so that Dawlish can have an hourly service. As I said, difficult decisions.
If the Dawlish Avoiding Line were to be built then it throws into question the cost of maintaining a rail link to one small village and a minor town. Remember, over 90% of holidaymakers don't arrive by train. If disruption on this scale is to become a regular occurrence, then abandoning Dawlish would pay for the DAL in perhaps a decade or two.
*ducks for cover*
BBC piece that is actually more or less factually accurate for a change:
Given the way the wind was blowing at the time, Mrs Castle was right to shut the LSWR route. There was no possibility of keeping both routes open in that climate, and the only place on the relevant section of the LSWR to completely lose its service was Tavistock (with a current population of just over 11,000). Over 100,000 would have lost their service if they'd shut the GW route.
Dawlish and Teignmouth put together have a population of around 30,000. That's quite a lot of people to wipe off the rail map.
A Dawlish branch from Newton Abbot would reduce the cost and keep them with some connection.
Quote from: ellendune on February 09, 2014, 03:29:34 pm
Well true; you could save even more by cutting it back to Teignmouth; more still by running a bus. To me that sounds a bit like Beeching-think.
Post by: stebbo on February 09, 2014, 04:25:56 pm
Light relief for a moment in this depressing debate - all of this leads me to remember my childhood days. Back in the late 1950s, when I were a young nipper, my mother used to take me down to Torquay in the summer on the Torbay Express - bound for Kingswear then - and King or Castle hauled. I well remember stopping at Dawlish on a hot sunny day and leaning out of the window to see the fireman shovelling furiously. A fast start with plenty of smoke and hot cinders would clear the beach of sunbathers in seconds flat, much to the merriment of the train crew. ;D
My proposal was to retain a shuttle service between Teignmouth and Newton Abbot, so only Dawlish would lose out.
I would very much hope this would never happen, however some experts are now predicting that the sea will win this battle (see above). If that is the case, then we need to look at the next best options
Such experts are defeatist, and fail to see anything above the "small picture". Dawlish needs a lot of stone, a few thousand tonnes thereof, plus fixity (thank you RedSquirrel) solution to the ballast. Penzance has a lot of big rocks protecting the foreshore, some of which I slept on during my hippy days, thankfully without the weather intruding too much. Dawlish may need similar, but the sea may be too deep.
To my mind, the Dawlish sea wall and railway should be re-instated without delay as an emergency measure. An alternative route, be it Okehampton to Tavvy or the other inland route via Newton Abbot should be researched with equal urgency. And built.
Post by: paul7575 on February 10, 2014, 08:59:09 am
Quote from: Four Track, Now! on February 09, 2014, 10:54:41 pm
To my mind, the Dawlish sea wall and railway should be re-instated without delay as an emergency measure...
Is anyone, anywhere, suggesting it won't or can't be rebuilt to the condition it was in, or even better?
I believe that the area breached was a predictably weak spot, and if it had been built to the same standards as most of the rest of the wall, with the path raised up alongside it rather than at the lower level, trains would be running now.
Some other posts have suggested it be made single track to allow for strengthening, and as someone else replied, the immediately obvious way of strengthening the weak section is to work on the outside.
In any case, it seems clear from the various photos that the area between the inner and outer walls had no structural strength - there may be far better engineering solutions, perhaps involving re-enforced concrete within the walls.
Quote from: paul7755 on February 10, 2014, 08:59:09 am
there may be far better engineering solutions, perhaps involving re-enforced concrete within the walls.
Massed re-enforced concrete does seem to have remarkable strength. Look at the bunkers on the Atlantic wall and they are still trying to demolish the old Flak Towers in Vienna. The problem seems to be how do you anchor the slab to prevent the sea from washing away the material all around and leaving it unsupported.
Post by: Andy on February 10, 2014, 11:32:40 am
To me, it seems that the way to proceed should be:
1) repair the wall & strengthen further if possible =>
2) reinstate Okehampton-Tavistock-Bere Alston, not just to provide a diversionary route when needed but also to reconnect Okehampton and Tavistock to the network and provide a railhead for North Cornwall & West Devon. =>
3) Plan for a Dawlish Avoiding Line to ensure that if/when the sea wall gives up the ghost, the South Devon & Torbay route is retained as well.
Post by: eightf48544 on February 10, 2014, 12:54:35 pm
Quote from: Andy on February 10, 2014, 11:32:40 am
Agree 100% with the priviso that:
Exeter Plymouth via Okehampton to be double track 90 mph.
Avoiding line to be double track and 125 mph.
In addition redouble Castle Cary to Pinhoe throughout to provide Somerset levels avoiding route.
Quote from: eightf48544 on February 10, 2014, 12:54:35 pm
Here here. The only reasonable solution! Both short, medium and long term. Lets just hope the same will, and money, exists in a few months when the Dawlish line is reopened
Network Rail's commitment to the Dawlish line is reassuring. That news about the Okehampton route being the only other game in town seems a little hurried, so must have been under consideration for a while. "We sold the trackbed" isn't much of an excuse - they must have got money for it, although probably a fraction of what will be needed to buy it back. There are council offices built over part of the route, but given Devon County Council's and the local district council's enthusiasm for the line, that should not get in the way. There is some detail, a little dated now, here. (http://www.devonnewscentre.info/further-plans-bring-growth-to-okehamptons-economy/)
Post by: ChrisB on February 11, 2014, 04:30:00 pm
All for 500,000 people? Hmmm. Maybe a selection of 2 out of 3. Unless they can access EU money for the other
Quote from: ChrisB on February 11, 2014, 04:30:00 pm
Maybe I need to clarify my reasoning. I'm trying to look at a bigger picture than just the sea wall.
In the short term, the wall is going to be repaired (point 1), meaning that we're back to where we were before the storms, hopefully with slightly more robust sea defences in place.
We also have a line from Plymouth to Bere Alston which, it seems, is going to be extended to Tavistock in the next few years. The line from Exeter to Okehampton/Meldon also exists, albeit without a regular passenger service, though there has been talk of reinstating one in conjunction with developments in/near Okehampton.
By joining up these two "ends", you have an orbital line linking Tavistock and Okehampton to Plymouth, South Devon and Exeter as well as a railhead for the swathe of North Cornwall & West Devon that was amputated from the national network in the 1960s. If this were to happen, the Yeoford-Crediton-Exeter stretch of the Barnstaple line would benefit from more trains, thus reducing congestion, one would hope. Oh... and a diversionary route.
However, I don't believe that this line could replace the South Devon route, which serves the population centres and tourist destinations on the English Riviera, on anything other than a diversionary basis, so if the sea wall line must go completely, then it seems imperative to plan (3) for a Dawlish Avoiding line. I'm not suggesting that such a line should be built in parallel with a reinstatement of the Okehampton route but that it should be planned for in anticipation of the time when the sea wall route is on borrowed time.
Thus, while the sea wall holds up, we'd have a main and a diversionary route and if it doesn't, we'd have the Dawlish Avoiding line providing a main route and a secondary (diversionary during engineering works) route. By going directly for the Dawlish Avoiding line, it's true that we'd solve the sea wall problem but we'd still not have a diversionary route.
Post by: exeterkiwi on February 11, 2014, 09:40:28 pm
I think what ever route is chosen Journey time needs to be reduce from Penzance,Plymouth, Exeter to London.
Norwich to London Liverpool Street takes about 1 HR 55 minutes over 133 miles with a average operating speed of 100 and the line is electrification
Moderator note:
For specific discussion on the merits or otherwise of building a Dawlish Avoiding Line please comment in the following topic: http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=5946.0
Likewise, for the merits or otherwise of reopening the former LSWR route between Okehampton and Tavistock, please keep those comments here.
The two subjects are related and I did consider merging them both into one super topic, but I think there's enough of a difference to keep them separate. If your comment encompasses both routes then you're free to choose where you wish to post.
bignosemac.
The possibility of reopening the line between Okehampton - Tavistock was covered on BBC Spotlight this evening.
That programme is available to view on the BBC iPlayer until 1830 tomorrow 13/02/2014:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b03tw9q1/Spotlight_12_02_2014/
I see Cameron made reference to Plymouth wanting a 3hr journey time to London, and more early trains, and that it was or would be looked at.
Thanks, BNM.
I see that a recent article posted on the Internet within the last 24 hours (15/02/14) by the 'New Civil Engineer' has some interesting points made in it. Half way down an Engineer is quoted as saying the cost to reopen the Okehampton line would be less than ^150million and do-able in 12-18months. I guess that is the build time after all the rest of the usual hunting for the crested newt has taken place! Lol.
However if any Government does decide to do this it would obviously give the whole process more momentum.
The article does also talk of the alternatives. Well worth a read. Link below.
http://www.nce.co.uk/news/transport/dawlish-rail-washout-triggers-call-for-inland-lines/8659005.article?blocktitle=News-In-Depth&contentID=204
Post by: Pb_devon on February 15, 2014, 08:21:03 am
Thanks trainbuff, but it appears to be a (paid) subscription only access.
Unless I'm missing something.
Quote from: trainbuff on February 15, 2014, 08:10:10 am
...the cost to reopen the Okehampton line would be less than ^150million and do-able in 12-18months...
Be interesting to know the scope of that - presumably it involves upgrading Yeoford - Meldon and relaying Meldon - Tavistock, but what about Tavistock - Bere Alston? I presume that any scheme to reopen the LSWR route would put the Kilbride project back to GRIP 0 (as MetroRail did Portishead).
Whether or not the scope includes the full missing 20-mile section from Bere Alston to Meldon, 'less than ^150 million' seems cheap compared to the Borders Railway. Presumably the operational line would be comparable to the Tweedbank project - largely single with dynamic passing loops. If so then the significant differences would be that the Borders line has required new alignments, a new viaduct and the crossing of a dual carriageway; as far as I can tell the Okehampton line would not require any such works.
Twelve to eighteen months though... they do know this is a rail project, don't they? In England?
Quote from: Pb_devon on February 15, 2014, 08:21:03 am
It is a paid sub site but I found the article on the internet freely available. I was able to view it earlier. Not quite sure what has happened there. Try this link below. It is a google search but look under the relevant article from New Civil Engineer.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=dawlish+sea+wall+alternative+routes&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-gb:IE-SearchBox&ie=&oe=&safe=active&gws_rd=cr&ei=lUP_UoD-MoujhgeJvYDoDw#q=dawlish+sea+wall+alternative+route&rls=com.microsoft:en-gb:IE-SearchBox&safe=active&start=10
Post by: SandTEngineer on February 15, 2014, 11:03:19 am
...well they need to get some of their facts right. The DAL is new railway not reuse of the existing Heathfield to Alphington (Exeter) route. The DAL would include new stations at Teignmouth and Dawlish. The existing Okehampton route is not all new line....etc. etc.. ::)
OK, got it now.
As STE has just said, the article is a bit of wild journalism, and note the estimates are from a retired Highways geotechnical engineer - not the best qualified for this!
BUT, it is all adding positive messages, so good stuff in that respect.
....and I don't buy all those excuses that NR have to concentrate on fixing Dawlish first. The people who carry out the studies are not those that deliver day to day (unless NR is now so short staffed that it can't cope, which I also don't buy either).
Reports this morning are that the storms on Friday have delayed the reopening of the sea wall by a further two weeks
The answer to the sea wall problems are to widen the A303, according to this article in the WMN:
http://www.westernmorningnews.co.uk/Flooding-crisis-A303-upgrade-fast-tracked/story-20639647-detail/story.html
So we have the money, we just don't want to spend it on the railway. I don't know whether to laugh or cry.
^4 billion unallocated? I wonder what the unallocated railway budget for this year is?
Post by: bobm on February 25, 2014, 11:43:06 am
Saw this train running from Taunton to Okehampton this morning.
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O77646/2014/02/25/advanced (http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O77646/2014/02/25/advanced)
Thought it might be the start of a new diverted service ;D
Post by: grahame on February 25, 2014, 12:45:18 pm
Quote from: bobm on February 25, 2014, 11:43:06 am
A locomotive on its own ... but then a line can start with a single vehicle and grow!
Quote from: grahame on February 25, 2014, 12:45:18 pm
Returning to Derby Gas Sidings? They have a sidings for Bristol Rovers supporters?
Gist of the Transport select committee meeting at Westminster today;
1.Repair of the Dawlish line progressing better than expected,could be open earlier than anticipated.
2.Network Rail head Mark Carne said that NR were to "consider" alternatives to the Dawlish line to "complement" it,rather than replace it.
3.Report into alternatives to be completed by July to enable Mr McLoughlin to assess cost implications of any alternative route.
Should be interesting to see what the report says and if the government are really committed to ensuring that Plymouth and Cornwall are not left with such a profoundly unsatisfactory set of circumstances again.
Post by: ChrisB on February 26, 2014, 10:34:28 am
He'll pass the buck to the next Government....:-o
Quote from: ChrisB on February 26, 2014, 10:34:28 am
Not so sure of that. There are votes to be won in decisive action, and to be lost by indecision. In terms of cost, any solution will be a minnow in comparison to HS2, Crossrail, even the renewal at Reading.
I am currently in North Devon. BBC's Spotlight programme (http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b03w64wx/Spotlight_26_02_2014/), available on i-player until 6pm on 27 February, has an inteeresting picce on what is happening, and what may happen, a little more in-depth than the national news item.
What is happening? -Nowt.
What may happen? - Not a lot.
Cynique? Moi?
Ne recommencez pas tout ^a encore!
Na' then, that's more like it, lad. Aye, champion!
Post by: exeterkiwi on March 04, 2014, 05:42:48 pm
I am guess that a replacement Meldon Viaduct, would have to be built as the exiting Viaduct was built by Engineer W R Galbraith for LSWR's Lydford-Okehampton line in 1874, the track sat 150 feet above the valley on a rising gradient of 1 in 77 towards the west, incorporating a 30 chain radius curve.
I guess it would be replaced with a concrete construction nearby
Post by: 34104 on March 06, 2014, 03:50:19 pm
West Devon BC obviously not too worried about the possible loss of their offices occupying the site of Tavistock North;
http://www.westdevon.gov.uk/article/1809/Latest-News
One of the big arguments for this solution is that, although it'd be a diversionary route, it is not a duplicate route in the same way the DAL would be. It brings an economic benefit for a swathe of Devon outside the large urban centres - and parts of Cornwall - and provides an additional commuter service into Exeter & Plymouth.
Post by: Lee on March 06, 2014, 06:05:28 pm
#redragtoabullbignosemac
Quote from: Lee on March 06, 2014, 06:05:28 pm
Okehampton an Tavistock's potential rail commuters can be served equally well by branch line services.
Time for a signature change.
Post by: Red Squirrel on March 06, 2014, 07:21:48 pm
Quote from: bignosemac on March 06, 2014, 06:30:19 pm
Doesn't that depend on where they want to go? 'Equally well'? Them's powerful words.
Post by: TonyK on March 06, 2014, 09:11:02 pm
Quote from: Four Track, Now! on March 06, 2014, 09:11:02 pm
An homage my dear fellow. With all respect and reverence explicit. No copyright infringement is intended or should be inferred. :P ;) ;D
Well maybe I should change mine too...
Quote from: Red Squirrel on March 07, 2014, 03:49:23 pm
The best solution to South-West Peninsula rail resilience, after due deliberation!
Hear, hear.
And, I'm on record with what I think is the best solution. I am but a lay person though. Should it be decided that re-opening Okehampton-Tavistock is the best solution, then so be it.
Post by: caliwag on March 07, 2014, 08:43:37 pm
It's good to see someone spell "hear hear" correctly.
Quote from: caliwag on March 07, 2014, 08:43:37 pm
Here here. ;D
That's all right, then. I do also agree with your stated ambition for a Dawlish Avoiding Line, Now!, my large schnozzled friend.
Post by: AMLAG on May 12, 2014, 10:12:05 pm
The Peninsular Rail Group (www.prg.2days.WS, or 01822 860148) who are co-ordinating and spearheading the campaign for re-opening Okehampton/Tavistock/Bere Alston not only as an alternative route for Plymouth & Cornwall rail traffic but also to serve West & North West Devon and North Cornwall, have arranged (principally for those in the catchment area this re-instated line would serve) a Business Breakfast meeting on Friday 16 May from 0730 to 0900 in the Bedford Hotel in Tavistock at which Geoffrey Cox MP for West Devon will attend.
Bacon Rolls and tea/coffee will be available with donations appreciated.
Post by: 34104 on October 15, 2016, 07:56:16 am
Pie in the sky [or pie in the sea]?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-37639243
Post by: ellendune on October 15, 2016, 08:14:10 am
Quote from: 34104 on October 15, 2016, 07:56:16 am
See commentary on this at http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=13544.msg202534#msg202534 (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=13544.msg202534#msg202534)
Post by: grahame on March 06, 2017, 01:43:17 pm
I have been altered alerted to Planning applicationTavistock 0425/17/FUL in the following away way:
The above planning application is to build a housing estate on the LSWR trackbed near Callington Road in Tavistock. This would be a big set back for the reinstatement of the line if it gets approval.
Closing date is 11 March 2017 (5 days).
Can anyone with local knowledge confirm that this indeed is a plan to build on the trackbed to the extent that rail re-opening would be compromised? Links / details would be appreciated as a follow up - I have very limited access today.
Administrator note: I have corrected (yet another) couple of grahame's classic typos. CfN. ::)
Post by: Worcester_Passenger on March 06, 2017, 02:03:54 pm
Link is http://www.westdevon.gov.uk/planningdetails?RefType=APPPlanCase&KeyNo=0&KeyText=170425 (http://www.westdevon.gov.uk/planningdetails?RefType=APPPlanCase&KeyNo=0&KeyText=170425).
Certainly looks to block the railway.
Post by: ChrisB on March 06, 2017, 02:04:41 pm
Quote from: grahame on March 06, 2017, 01:43:17 pm
I have been altered to Planning applicationTavistock 0425/17/FUL in the following away:
Sounds distinctly painful, Graham!
Quote from: Worcester_Passenger on March 06, 2017, 02:03:54 pm
In which case, you need to check the county's LTP to see what it says about the trackbed & whether it is meant to be protected. If it is, there's a valid complaint, if they haven't, it'd be harder to win.
This definitely would block the track bed in a cutting. There is no cheap way round it so if built in 15 or 20 years time then the houses would have to be demolished. It is Devon County and West Devon that support a Northern Route. In fact West Devon have signed up to a Joint Local Plan very recently supporting a Northern Route
As technical advisor to the Peninsula Rail Group, I have submitted an objection and encourage others to do so
Quote from: ChrisB on March 06, 2017, 02:04:41 pm
With thanks for spotting those almost inevitable typos by grahame, ChrisB, I've now amended his post (in view of his limited access). ::)
Good to see plenty of objections.
On the one hand, I kind of see the arguments for this development. It's now fifty years since closure, a very long time. Indeed, there are now middle-aged citizens of Tavistock who have never so much as heard a Westcountry's whistle. Yes, there is a lot of talk, but look at the stagnation of the plan to reach the other side of Callington Road. How much longer should the landowners of Tavistock have to wait before they can build much needed housing? 75 years? The centenary of the former line's closure?
However, I have always been a supporter of the Okehampton link, and believe it would rejuvenate North West Devon, regardless of the future of Dawlish. A look at the map of Tavistock shows how few obstructions there are to this trackbed, allowing any more goes against any rational transport plan for this area. Moreover, at some point electrication will come to Devon, and hard choices will have to be made as I very much doubt the coastal route is suitable.
Quote from: Umberleigh on March 17, 2017, 07:39:34 pm
How much longer should the landowners of Tavistock have to wait before they can build much needed housing?
They shouldn't have to wait ... they should be allowed to build houses on sites that don't block rail revival potential. If Tavistock is anything like Melksham, there will be many, many alternative sites. The SHLAA map for Tavistock is, I'm afraid, giving me a "404" as West Devon Council migrate to a new web site - but by way of example what they're likely to have potentially available look at the Melksham plans at http://www.wiltshire.gov.uk/shlaa-appendix-3-melksham.pdf .
Post by: Pb_devon on March 29, 2017, 08:36:54 am
A lengthy article today, with a summary of the current position of schemes.
http://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/this-is-the-new-train-line-that-could-link-plymouth-with-london/story-30233238-detail/story.html
Though it does get off to a bad start...linking the Froome freight derailment with the Okehampton reopening!
Post by: signalman on March 30, 2017, 08:26:40 pm
Exeter - Okehampton
£2 Million to run trains on Sundays and other days.
£8 Million to make it a fully functioning Branch Line. Ouch !
Post by: RichardB on March 30, 2017, 11:02:45 pm
Quote from: signalman on March 30, 2017, 08:26:40 pm
You're putting two and two together and making 87. You're simply wrong.
Post by: Tim on March 31, 2017, 11:42:21 am
They shouldn't have to wait ... they should be allowed to build houses on sites that don't block rail revival potential.
Even better than that, they should be encouraged to build houses that assist the case for rail revival, by providing homes for potential new rail customers.
The Council themselves may of course have a vested interest in this potential revival. Are their offices not blocking the route?
Indeed they are:
(see Google Maps (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.5528247,-4.1436714,313m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en) )
...though I seem to remember reading somewhere that they were not un-amenable to moving.
Quote from: Pb_devon on March 29, 2017, 08:36:54 am
Not to mention the "fake news" that the recent Royal Oke had to be "scrapped" when neither the service nor the train was "scrapped".
It would seem folly to allow any further development on the trackbed of this line, with both reinstatement of the line to the outskirts of Tavistock and reinstatement of a regular Okehampton-Exeter service moving forward.
Post by: TaplowGreen on April 02, 2017, 09:10:38 am
I'm afraid this reflects a very narrow viewpoint. The country needs new houses desperately. Not all sites are suitable or practical for housing development. I am all for a joined up approach with public transport (which incorporates more than trains of course) but to suggest that housing development should be blocked based on the "potential" (quantify that please) that one day in the distant future a railway line may be constructed in the area is unlikely to attract a lot of sympathy outside the circles of professional railway advocates.
Post by: grahame on April 02, 2017, 09:50:39 am
Quote from: TaplowGreen on April 02, 2017, 09:10:38 am
I'm afraid this reflects a very narrow viewpoint.
Oops - quite the reverse was intended.
I can't speak to Tavistock specifics, but I have taken a significant look at my home town. There's a considerable number of sites on offer for development, some of which are far more suitable than others. Neighbourhood plans, and wider county and even national plans should be taken into account and where there's a supply of sites in excess of demand, an element of weight in the balancing decisions should be given to whether a development would block other things that might happen in the future.
I'm not going to put numbers to words like "might", "potential", "possible" and "probable", but I would look to joined up planning departments and specialists to take a balanced look at all the options and steer development in such as way that it's good for the community it'll serve, and for those passing through or past the community on longer journeys too.
Balance is difficult to write about in black and white - it's very much a grey area.
Post by: johnneyw on April 03, 2017, 08:51:37 pm
A plea for help. Does anybody know if there is going to be a service from Okehampton to Exeter during the last few days of April? I'll be down that way then and would love to add to the numbers.
Post by: AMLAG on April 03, 2017, 09:52:59 pm
Summer Sunday trains between Okehampton and Exeter ( four each way) start this year on 21 May.
Post by: LiskeardRich on November 23, 2017, 09:23:04 am
The following poster is being plastered all over Okehampton in various locations, establishments.
Does anyone know anything official as I haven't seen or heard anything.
Post by: bradshaw on November 23, 2017, 10:18:37 am
This dates from May which might have a bearing
http://www.okehampton-today.co.uk/article.cfm?id=420560&headline=Okehampton%20to%20Exeter%20commuter%20train%20trials%20planned&sectionIs=news&searchyear=2017
Post by: Rapidash on November 24, 2017, 10:21:14 pm
Which of the branches is taking a hit to frequency for that then? Exeter isn't exactly awash with surplus stock, is it?
I assumed it will be 143/150 released by turbos.
Post by: grahame on November 24, 2017, 11:15:59 pm
Quote from: Rapidash on November 24, 2017, 10:21:14 pm
Quote from: richwarwicker on November 24, 2017, 10:44:56 pm
The rolling stock situation is dynamic in current times ...
From Exeter, all the 150/1 units and half of the 153 are being lost over the next three months. Most of the 150/0 and 150/2 units that operate Bristol based service at present, and most of the 158s will be operating services from Exeter and west thereof, together with the 143s, 150/2 units already based there, and remaining 153s. Also incoming will be a drip feed of short HSTs (very slow drip to start with, I suspect). On longer distance services, class 802 will be phased in as full length HSTs are faded out, and perhaps some class 800 may bite into odd services that don't go too far west.
I would be very interested to see a time series of month v no of units (or) number of carriages in each class. I'm sure someone has one, but I haven't seen it published.
Quote from: grahame on November 24, 2017, 11:15:59 pm
Mark Hopwood probably has one. ;)
However, as we may find him rather less elusive than Mark these days, may I invite our respected Coffee Shop forum member RichardB to comment here?
Chris from Nailsea. ;D
Post by: RichardB on November 26, 2017, 07:44:46 am
Thanks Chris.
Let's just say that the poster in Okehampton is a bit on the optimistic side and is just one indication of how keen local people are to get the service and Okehampton Parkway station in.
The DfT, GWR, NR, Devon County Council are all looking at how both can happen. The push to get the service and station is being led by the OkeRail Forum and OkeRail CIC, both of which have wide support locally and far out into the area that Okehampton would provide a railhead for (eg Bude and Launceston, among others).
Many thanks for your well-informed comments, RichardB. ;)
For the benefit of any of our readers here who are particularly interested, may I also offer a link to the Okerail website (https://okerail.2day.uk/) - 'OkeRAIL Forum & CIC, Restoring Okehampton to Exeter rail services - and rail links to the UK'.
Best wishes and good luck to them in their campaign. :D
Post by: Andy on November 27, 2017, 03:09:01 pm
More power to their elbows!
I imagine that a daily service is not necessarily conditional on the completion of the new parkway station, however beneficial that might be. In the route map on the poster, only Sampford Courtney and Crediton are mentioned, with the latter given as the interchange for Barnstaple. Does this mean that there are no plans to stop at Yeoford or Newton St Cyres?
Post by: plymothian on November 27, 2017, 03:14:16 pm
There's no [usable] platform at Yeoford.
I'm assuming the cost of recommissioning the second platform at Yeoford (and installing a footbridge) would be too great. A reinstated junction at Coleford would enable the single platform at Yeoford to be used but a double crossover would create a long 4m + double track loop all the way to Crediton.
Quote from: Andy on November 27, 2017, 03:58:42 pm
Playing Devil's advocate here ... what's the economic case for an Okehampton service calling at Yeoford? Currently a request stop on the hourly Exeter to Barnstaple service, (14 calls in each direction - so up to 28 train calls) with under 25 passengers joining and 25 passengers leaving each day. If there's no stop on the Okehampton trains, 2 single tracks from Crediton will continue to work, won't it?
If there was major development planned at Yeoford (Yeoford Garden City), if there was a big potential traffic from Okehampton to Barnstaple (change at Yeoford), or if a Okehampton to Yeoford shuttle were planned for quiet times of day with a change there, then each and any of those would help improve the case for station investment. The case will also be helped when the line's extended beyond Okehampton to Bere Alston, making for a dynamic loop from Crediton to Yeoford.
All valid points, Grahame. I'd say the main attraction of a second platform at Yeoford (or a junction at Coleford enabling Okehampton services to use the existing platform) would be to avoid an unnecessary 9 miles to Crediton and back for passengers interested in getting to stations to Barnstaple.
Post by: eightf48544 on November 28, 2017, 10:43:35 am
Are there many potential passengers wanting to go from Okehampton to stations to Barnstaple?
It'd be a small traffic flow in both directions, I imagine, but it'll be even smaller with an unnecessary 25 minutes+ added to the journey time (assuming connections could be timed to avoid a wait at Yeoford).
Post by: RichardB on November 28, 2017, 02:24:59 pm
The bigger problem is the amount of money it would cost to bring the disused platform back into use and provide access to it. The platform is low and in poor condition with cable trunking along it - you could be looking at £500k plus. Can't see that sort of money being available for Yeoford in anything like the short/medium term.
If it were decided to reinstate Coleford Junction and make Crediton - there double track again, completely different ballgame, of course. Not sure that's where that kind of money (if available) would be best spent to improve the Tarka Line though. There is a working party looking at these issues and drawing up a draft Line Plan for the line at the moment.
Post by: Bob_Blakey on November 29, 2017, 09:01:47 am
Speaking to Nick Ferrari on LBC this morning, Chris Grayling stated quite categorically that a trial service will be implemented between Okehampton & Exeter.
No timescale given of course but I live in hope of a prompt start.
Do the relevant experts on this forum know if such a service would require any signalling upgrades between Crediton & Cowley Bridge?
Westcountry news on itv this evening are discussing that the government are exploring a dawlish avoider, announced in Exeter this morning, most likely via Okehampton. An 'expert' says it will cost the equivalent of 2miles of HS2 to restore Okehampton to Plymouth!
HS2 mile equivalents is an excellent unit of measurement ;D
This seems a sensible idea on the part of the government. Perhaps they could fast-track any consultations as elements have been looked at before AND it's in line with stated policy of re-opening Beechinged lines AND it would do so much for the area, AND it's at a cost of less that 5km of HS2 (that's the metric equivalent of HS2 miles!)
Full credit to the government in coming up with this excellent idea even if borrowed from elsewhere!
An interesting feature:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/dec/01/okehampton-residents-welcome-talk-of-reopening-railway-lines
[mods please merge if required]
Thanks for posting, Umberleigh. ;)
Purely in the interests of continuity and clarity, I've now moved and merged a couple of existing discussion topics here - all relating to Okehampton.
Hope this helps. :)
Post by: LiskeardRich on December 21, 2017, 09:24:58 am
Okerail have posted the following on Facebook...
There are posters going up in Okehampton with misleading information regarding the trial.
1. The poster says the trial will start in 2018. This not accurate. No date has been set by DfT yet. Talks are being had by them with GWR as soon as we know a date we will say. In truth 2019 is more likely.
2. It says that there will be a 300 place park and ride. While there will be a car park, there has been no absolute commitment yet. 300 would be the absolute maximum but doesn't allow for buses. A park and ride in the sense of those in cities, is not what is being looked at. Work is going on now relating to the New Parkway station and the car park. We will post about that when we can.
3. It also says that it will run through to Exeter Central. While this is an aspiration, at the moment there is no commitment. GWR are aware of the importance of Central as a destination and it is part of the discussions going forward.
4. Logos. None of the organisations have given permission for their logos to be used on this poster. I know for sure that DCC are unhappy because of the misleading messages.
Why am I making a thing about this? DfT insist on communities having the same focus. If there is any apparent dissenting within groups that are leading, that could stop discussions and the DfT could look elsewhere.
If anyone wants to discuss this further, drop me a message and I will happily do so.
Kev Ball.
Post by: grahame on December 21, 2017, 10:00:49 am
Quote from: richwarwicker on December 21, 2017, 09:24:58 am
Requoting that to emphasise the importance of the community and groups speaking with a united voice; at stages where there are options to be chosen between (or indeed where input is requested for options), there will of course be a variety of views. But then it's really up to community and groups to come together and present that united front, and perhaps to explain it to late-comer groups who may have their own suggestions that aren't compatible with the generally accepted view.
I suppose it's a bit like cabinet of company director's responsibility - there may be occasions on a board where I don't feel 100% happy with the majority view / decision as being the best - but I will support it if it's not catastrophic. And I would far rather deal with an organisation that's clear in its direction no matter who I talk to there if I'm going to be forming a long term official relationship with the organisation.
Post by: bradshaw on January 31, 2018, 10:56:43 am
This link appeared on another forum yesterday. Is there any confirmation?
https://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/news/local-news/great-western-railway-ordered-start-1141088.amp
Post by: RichardB on January 31, 2018, 11:04:19 am
This is what he said in his letter to MPs (quoted in the piece) -
"In a letter to Westcountry MPs, Mr Grayling wrote: "We have instructed GWR to prepare plans to introduce regular train services to Okehampton, with the objective of securing a credible and costed plan for delivering an all-week, all-year train service between Exeter and Okehampton as soon as reasonably practicable."
To me, that is not actually giving the go ahead to introducing the service, rather, as said, calling for plans to be drawn up. A very good step in the right direction but a lot further to go.
Post by: SandTEngineer on January 31, 2018, 11:59:58 am
This bit caught my eye in the article (yes, I know its not the Okehampton route):
Mr Grayling said his department was reviewing the costs and business case for partial electrification and track alignment work between Totnes and Plymouth.
What's all that about then.... ::)
Post by: bradshaw on January 31, 2018, 12:29:06 pm
If I remember correctly it has been suggested, possibly by the DfT, that it might be possible to electrify sections of the Devon banks to enable a better performance. Partial electrification was seen as an advantage of bimode use when the curtailment of GWR electrification was announced. The Trans Pennine route is being looked at thus.
The realignment would help in improving line speeds.
Post by: paul7575 on January 31, 2018, 12:56:45 pm
Instructing GWR to "draw up plans" was also effectively shown in the ITT for the 2012 franchise, in the form of a priced option.
This could still just be keeping the same old pot simmering on the back burner...
Post by: onthecushions on January 31, 2018, 03:47:21 pm
Quote from: SandTEngineer on January 31, 2018, 11:59:58 am
This suggests that DfT are aware of the limitations of Bi-modes, i.e in climbing and fast running.
Totnes - Plymouth includes Rattery and Hemerdon banks but the wires would need to start at Newton Abbot to include Dainton, not to mention Whiteball.
A similar glimmer of sense appears to be in NR now debating where the MML wires should stop, as there are summits at Desborough, south of Market H and to the north at Kibworth. After Leicester the line is easily graded so Bi-modes would/might be satisfactory.
Why the steep Box and Middle Hill tunnels aren't wired ASAP defeats reason.
Exeter - Plymouth via Okehampton would be a terrific climb, 1/75 for 25 miles each way!
Get shovelling,
Post by: Oberon on January 31, 2018, 09:52:07 pm
The sudden enthusiasm from Chris Grayling for trains to Okehampton, and the very sensible option of electrifying the South Devon banks, is the result of a group of south west Tory MPs stating if the railway in the west doesn't receive its fair share of funding, they will all refuse en bloc to support HS2 when the crucial Commons vote comes.
I'm in favour of HS2 but I am even more in favour of our part of the world getting its dues in the railway funding stakes. So good for them!
Post by: Kernow Otter on February 01, 2018, 08:27:52 am
I wonder other projects a full and proper fair share of funding could help deliver ?
Quote from: Kernow Otter on February 01, 2018, 08:27:52 am
Don't know, but I have been telling DUP MPs what a good idea Filton Bank Four Tracking Now might be.
Quote from: onthecushions on January 31, 2018, 03:47:21 pm
I can see that this might be a better post in the Pedant section but it is worth mentioning. Exeter to Plymouth via Okehampton is approximately 58 miles. It is not quite the 1 in 75 stated for 25 miles in each direction.
The steepest part of the line is 1 in 73 on the currently open section from St Budeaux to Bere Alston. Between Bere Alston and Lydford the gradient is 1 in 75 in many places, though this is not continuous. There are patches of 1 in 78 between Lydford and the summit at Sourton. All of these gradients are interspersed with easier climbs and level sections. These are merely the steepest gradient on that portion. The distance between St Budeaux and the Summit is about 25 miles.
The other portion of the route has gradients that are at most 1 in 76 or 1 in 77 between North Tawton and Sourton, though they do continue for much of this 10 miles. The gradients between Coleford and North Tawton are largely much less severe. The 10 miles between Exeter and Coleford (just after Yeoford) do not rise steeply, and in fact are part of the Tarka line. If you add up the mileage of the steepest climbs then it is 35, not 50 miles.
The general profile of the route is to climb up to Dartmoor the back towards sea level it is true. This does hide the other issue with the steep banks mentioned in the previous posts in South Devon. It is worth pointing out that South Devon has 3 of the 10 steepest banks in the country. They are:
3rd. Dainton, between 1 in 36 and 1 in 57
4th. Hemerdon, 1 in 42
7th. Rattery, between 1 in 45 and 1 in 90, though the first part of the climb is between 1 in 45 and 1 in 70
Whilst the curvature of the track is similar to the portion of the Okehampton route between St Budeaux and Lydford, the gradients are so much more severe on the current line, particularly with Dainton and Rattery. Either way round is a challenge for different reasons but it would be a generally easier climb now for diesel traction. I wont say electric because we will be lucky if we get the main line via Totnes electrified at all!!
Note that I see the current route as always being the main line. It serves the population centres of Devon
I do subscribe to the point of view though that the 'Northern Route' would be a good ADDITIONAL line. Normally used for local traffic and any freight but also with a capability for diversions. Maybe 2 trains per hour in each direction.
Post by: RichardB on February 04, 2018, 09:21:21 pm
Quote from: paul7755 on January 31, 2018, 12:56:45 pm
That's a fair observation but I think there is a momentum, locally and politically, behind Exeter - Okehampton that there wasn't back then or really at any time I can think of since the station was restored and the Sunday service begun back in 97.
It helps that Chris Grayling himself has made several positive comments about it, including the latest ones. It also helps he wasn't moved in the reshuffle!
Post by: onthecushions on February 04, 2018, 11:54:51 pm
If one looks at Figure W4 of "Gradient Profiles", one will see that there is precious little relief from grades, although they do vary, like toothache.
Post by: TonyK on February 05, 2018, 09:36:02 am
Quote from: RichardB on February 04, 2018, 09:21:21 pm
I'm not sure whether that is because of his leadership qualities as a minister, his depth of knowledge of transport issues, or the PM's need for friends in the cabinet. It would be prudent, although not easy, for the local pressure groups to try to get the other parties signed up to this, in preparation for the almost inevitable. None of us would like to see this as a continuous stop-start when the political make-up changes, like Portishead or electrification into Bristol.
Quote from: onthecushions on February 04, 2018, 11:54:51 pm
If one looks at Figure W4 of "Gradient Profiles", one will see that there is precious little relief from grades...
I have only travelled that way once, taking advantage of the Devon Rover one Sunday. The ride back from Okehampton seems to be freewheeling almost all the way to Yeoford. It seems steep for a long way.
...although they do vary, like toothache.
I don't suppose there's a Gradient Fairy?
Anyway, it's good to know that a factual, informed and completely non Plymouthcentric opinion is being given to the All party parliamentary South West Rail Group by its chairman Gary Streeter MP for South West Devon [basically the South Hams,Ivybridge and Plympton];
"I don't think trundling a train quite slowly inland is a back up plan,we are better off making the line we have as resillient as possible".
Good on yer Gary,it's votes that count! ;D
Quote from: 34104 on February 05, 2018, 08:55:01 pm
Call in King Canute then.
I believe old Canute's Norse name was Cnut. Better not get too anagramatical when thinking of that and Streeter at the same time.
My Norwegian friend calls himself Knut, the other forms are Anglicisms, it seems.
Can't help the Tory MP, though.
Welcome in Tawton, no doubt.
Post by: grahame on February 06, 2018, 05:16:33 am
Not a scientist, is he? For a system to be robust and fail-safe, you really need an independent provision that you can use as your backup. I suppose you could fall back to having Plymouth cut off from rail for an extended period if something goes wrong with the line again, with lots of rail replacement buses and time critical journeys made by air ... except I think there's an issue with the latter from Plymouth these days?
Post by: johnneyw on February 08, 2018, 06:08:57 pm
From Devon Live, Chris Grayling instructs GWR to provide regular Okehampton service.
https://www.devonlive.com/news/devon-news/daily-okehampton-exeter-trains-promised-1141277
I think you should read the exact words in Mr G's letter. Many hurdles to jump yet!
Bear in mind that the infrastructure to Okehampton is NOT owned by NR, and a deal will have to be struck for a regular service can be implemented. Also a group of SW Tory MPs have said they will vote against HS2 unless money comes to the SW, so some vote buying is required.
It will be great if it happens, but don't expect to be boarding a train at Okehampton for Exeter other than a summer Sunday anytime soon.
Indeed. My understanding is that he is asking to be told how it could be done, without a commitment that it will be done. A good step - but not (in my view) a promise to provide.
We went through this sort of process at TransWilts - along the lines of "do these five things and we'll consider it" and (again with extra hurdles to jump) it did form the basis of the 2014-2016 trial. Far from guaranteed though - other earlier supported "let's see what we could do" exercises got us only to "very interesting possibility but we're not doing it" positions.
Post by: sikejsudjek3 on February 10, 2018, 08:34:48 am
Quote from: johnneyw on February 08, 2018, 06:08:57 pm
Pardon my cynicism but when is Grayling going to 'instruct GWR to provide a regular service' ??? He hasn't so far managed it with the rest of the franchise ! :D
Quote from: sikejsudjek3 on February 10, 2018, 08:34:48 am
Actually the article refers to Grayling instructing GWR to 'prepare plans' for a regular service to Okehampton. Maybe it's going to be used as the model to roll out for rest of GWR in some distant future! 😀
Post by: Umberleigh on November 10, 2018, 09:21:54 am
No apologies for bumping this after last night.
The Dawlish line has always been prone to weather disruption but this is now becoming a regular winter event, one which is almost predictable.
Forget Network Rail telling us we need a new double track mainline. All we need between Crediton and Bere Alston is a single track with a passing loop at Tavistock (and perhaps Okehampton) and the reinstatement of the junction north of Yeoford at Coleford to allow for a dynamic passing loop controlled by Crediton box. This should allow for one train per hour to be diverted in each direction.
Rest of the year run Sprinters between Exeter and Plymouth for the local and tourist trade. Suspend these services during diversions and lay on coaches for the much smaller number of passengers making much shorter journeys.
Yes, we need a new viaduct at Mellon and yes trackbed will have to be prised back from landowners and some buildings knocked down, but its not exactly HS2, is it?
Post by: bignosemac on November 10, 2018, 10:11:40 am
Quote from: Umberleigh on November 10, 2018, 09:21:54 am
And how does that help the combined populations of Teignbridge, Torbay and the South Hams? That's 400,000 odd people cut off from access to the railway, while trains do their double reversal and long detour to serve Plymouth and Cornwall.
Dawlish Avoiding Line keeps everyone in Devon & Cornwall, who currently has access to rail, connected.
Okehampton - Tavistock should reopen too. But its raison d'etre for opening should not be as a diversionary route. It should be costed on the new traffic it has the potential to generate. Costed on the benefits a regular passenger service would being to the folk of West Devon. No benefit/cost weighting should be given to it for use as a diversionary route during disruption. You can survey and predict passenger numbers for a new line. You can't survey and predict (beyond short term weather forecasts) meteorological disruption.
Your plan would means buses and coaches replacing the local services along the LSWR route during disruption, in addition to the rail replacement fleet required for South Devon, Teignbridge, Torbay, and the South Hams. TOCs struggle to source such vehicles at short notice as it is.
Trying to sell the new line to folk, but curtailing the local service when the coastal route closes, won't make the reopening that attractive.
Post by: Southernman on November 10, 2018, 11:05:29 am
During closure of the main line the good people of Torbay etc have no rail service anyway! I am of the firm opinion that the 'northern' route should be re-opened as a local, single tracked railway (with passing loops as previously suggested) which can be used as an alternative by the people of Plymouth and Cornwall, also benefitting residents of Devon & Cornwall who are vast distances from any railway. Don't forget its not just high tides that cause closures - also engineering works and emergencies.
The old GWR scheme (all land sold off I believe) by-passed Dawlish & Teignmouth.
The Borders Railways has shown what can be done - and this is for locals only (until the full route is re-opened).
It is only a matter of time before another long-term closure of the Dawlish route happens, however hard Network Rail try. Building out into the sea I hear is now not the preferred option, just one of them.
Quote from: bignosemac on November 10, 2018, 10:11:40 am
Many diversions would happen late at night when the local services have ceased, and anyway 802s could stop at Okehampton and Tavistock when diverted, then stick the handful for Bow etc in a taxi. A passing loop at Bere Alston would allow the Gunnislake services to continue in some fashion.
We don't need to cut the existing route, as I firmly believe the Dartmoor route would generate quite substantial tourist numbers and not insignificant local usage. Certainly enough to keep a 158 busy.
In time, rising sea levels will make some sort of remodelling of the coastal route necessary, but that is some time away.
The time taken to reopen the Dartmoor line would be sufficient to order and build new trains or to benefit from the electrification cascade.
Welsh lines and the Borders line have been reopened - it is feasible.
Post by: PhilWakely on November 10, 2018, 11:22:02 am
Funded by the Welsh and Scottish assemblies. The English government is not particularly interested unless it benefits London.
Quote from: Southernman on November 10, 2018, 11:05:29 am
During closure of the main line the good people of Torbay etc have no rail service anyway!
Which is precisely why they need a rail alternative to the coastal route that doesn't completely bypass them. Users of Newton Abbot, Torquay, Paignton and Totnes would be delighted to learn that sparser populated areas of Devon get a rail service during disruption, while they are consigned to buses and coaches.
The need for a solution to the frequent coastal route disruption is not some time away. Dawlish Avoiding Line, Now!
Too reiterate. I'm not either/or. I'm just against promoting and costing the LSWR as a diversionary route. And I firmly believe that any call on funding has to first go to protecting and enhancing the current and considerable rail passenger flows. Any buses or coaches needed should be reserved solely for serving Dawlish. Even Teignmouth can keep a rail service during sea wall related disruption, with a shuttle from Newton Abbot served by connecting services off the DAL.
I appreciate that I may be in a minority in the rail enthusiast community, with its large supply of rose tinted spectacles. But one has to look first at which option is of more benefit to more people.
Post by: broadgage on November 10, 2018, 01:33:07 pm
Time for another round of studies, reviews and consultations I suspect. Cheaper than actually doing anything.
Have newt breeding and bat nesting been considered yet ?
Post by: Umberleigh on November 10, 2018, 01:52:48 pm
Too reiterate. I'm not either/or. I'm just against promoting and costing the LSWR as a diversionary route. And I firmly believe that any call on funding has to first go to protecting and enhancing the current and considerable rail passenger flows. Any buses or coaches needed should be reserved solely for serving Dawlish. Even Teignmouth can keep a rail service during sea wall related disruption, with a shuttle from Newton Abbot served by connecting servicfes off the DAL.
With the Dawlish avoiding line, you need a very expensive tunnel which will be needed about seven days a year. With the Okehampton route you get 365 days of parkway railway access for North West Devon, North West Ciornwall, Dartmoor and the growing town of Tavistock. You also get a diversiionary route for those seven days each year that the largest city in Devon and the entire county of Cornwall are cut off.
Post by: SandTEngineer on November 10, 2018, 02:09:22 pm
No it wouldn't. See here: http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=20630.msg251103#msg251103
Post by: TaplowGreen on November 10, 2018, 08:09:08 pm
Quote from: Umberleigh on November 10, 2018, 01:52:48 pm
How.....much......will......it....cost?
Post by: bignosemac on November 10, 2018, 08:15:12 pm
The DAL wouldn't be used for just 7 days a year. It'd become the mainline. Built to modern standards on a faster alignment to offer modest journey time improvements. The sea wall route would be rationalised to single line along the Sea Wall.
Now, if it is just 'seven days' then that's further reason to not include any benefit/cost uplift to the LSWR route for diversions. Just as I wouldn't expect the DAL to include an uplift for the occasions when it carries traffic to Plymouth for Tavistock when the LSWR route is snowed in!
Quote from: TaplowGreen on November 10, 2018, 08:09:08 pm
A darn sight less than an unnecessary third direct route between London and Birmingham. And think of the benefit. You can get by train to any winter game at The Brickfields! :P
Quote from: bignosemac on November 10, 2018, 08:19:21 pm
Good answer! But I'm still waiting for someone to give a figure of how much it's going to cost, and without that, there's no basis for a sensible or meaningful debate!
The most recent costings are in the 'West of Exeter Route Resilience Study' published after the 2014 washout.
https://www.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/West-of-Exeter-Route-Resilience-Study.pdf
No option scored particularly highly on benefit/cost analysis. Although one could question the methodology and political input. What is clear though is the LSWR route as a diversion scored lower than a couple of the DAL options. And that was taking into account the new traffic the LSWR would generate.
Post by: Southernman on November 10, 2018, 10:00:02 pm
The Peninsular Rail Task Force commissioned a report and the findings of January 2016 are here:-
https://peninsularailtaskforce.files.wordpress.com/2016/05/work-stream-summary-consultation-draft-v1-5-5-16-clean-copy.pdf
Pages 23 -26. e' cost of Okehampton to Tavistock £450m for a modest scheme. There are other costs, including upgrading Crediton to Okehampton for regular use which will have to be found if that proposed reinstatement of regular services actually happens. And also the bit between Bere Alston and Tavistock which seems to grind forwards ever so slowly!
Post by: TonyK on November 11, 2018, 10:35:21 pm
Quote from: Southernman on November 10, 2018, 10:00:02 pm
I still reckon that figure was thought up by somebody who didn't want the job to be done, using the usual mathematical procedure of writing the BCR figure you want to arrive at on the back of a fag packet, then working backwards.
Post by: trainbuff on November 12, 2018, 08:02:48 pm
Quote from: Four Track, Now! on November 11, 2018, 10:35:21 pm
I still reckon that figure was thought up by somebody who didn't want the job to be done, using the usual mathematical procedure of writing the BCR figure you wat to arrive at on the back of a fag packet, then working backwards.
If you look at this study by Greengauge21 done in June 2016 you could be forgiven for thinking the two reports were about entirely different railways! Link here:
http://www.greengauge21.net/blog/rural-reconnections-the-social-benefits-of-rail-reopening-exeter-okehampton-tavistock-plymouth-a-case-study/
Good news within for reopening Okehampton:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/778858/investing-in-the-sw.pdf
Certainly looks like it, but you can never be sure until at least 3 Transport Secretaries have said it.
Quote from: Tony (Ex FT, N!) on February 15, 2019, 08:50:56 pm
What it says is:
We also want to bring back regular Exeter to Okehampton train services to further boost connectivity in the area and we recognise local aspirations for an Okehampton to Plymouth rail link.
That does not look anything like a commitment to me!
A bit of a cracker, 'Investing in the South-West' - glossy, woolly, fluffy, and re-announcing a number of schemes that have already been completed...
Post by: Timmer on February 16, 2019, 08:04:55 am
A typical Dft publication then.
Post by: ellendune on February 16, 2019, 09:12:40 am
Quote from: Timmer on February 16, 2019, 08:04:55 am
A typical Dft government publication then!
Though to be fair it did announce funding for Dawlish. Though it troubles me that no one is saying that this is only about 10% of the sea wall at Dawlish and it does not include the bit that had to be repaired in 2014! surely the rest of that section must be every bit at risk!
Post by: bradshaw on February 16, 2019, 09:32:59 am
I think the BBC Spotlight programme last night mentioned the need to do the cliff section.
The publication produced by the DfT seems more like a defence against those South west MPs who have been articulating about the imbalance in investment compared to other regions. The adding of schemes from Gloucester and Bournemouth/Poole help make up the numbers.
What is not included is a strategic view of long term investment plan for the south western counties.
More like Spike Milligan's "I've remembered Harry Secombe in my will. No money, just "I remember 23-stone Harry Secombe"".
So whilst it seems there are positive discussions still ongoing as regards a regular service on the Okehampton line, sadly the Tavistock initiative has ground to a halt:
https://www.devonlive.com/news/devon-news/reopening-bere-alston-tavistock-railway-3311504
The authorities are now claiming that costs have risen by over £20,000,000 in just over two years and that it will now cost £93,000,000 to relay a single track over an existing double-track mainline formation of less than 10 miles and to build a simple halt at Tavistock.
Meanwhile, the L&BR railway are rebuilding 4.5 miles of narrow gauge railway closed since 1935 (and rebuilding virtually every bridge) for about £5,500,000 (costs much the same as they were two years ago).
Leaving aside the fact that the developers reengaged on their promise of funding the project, the cynic in me feels its the age old trick of 'inflate the costs until they say it can't be done' at play, as successfully employed with the Braunton proposal.
Post by: TonyK on January 01, 2020, 03:44:34 pm
I wish they had reengaged on their promise, something might have happened. Maybe the council can now renege on the planning permission?
Post by: smokey on January 14, 2020, 04:03:14 pm
I reckon with all the fine engineers out there who love (well like railways) a bunch of volunteers could rebuild the whole Okehampton to Bere Alston line with double track, to the highest of standard for about £50million and that's around 45 miles of Track.
Post by: Umberleigh on January 25, 2020, 11:18:47 am
The Dartmoor Railway is for sale:
https://www.walkersingleton.co.uk/machinery-business-asset/railway-operator-rolling-stock-rental-and-rail-maintenance-company/
The Dartmoor Railway Association say they are in the dark about this
Post by: grahame on January 25, 2020, 11:51:58 am
Quote from: Umberleigh on January 25, 2020, 11:18:47 am
Indeed. As a line with two potential futures - as a heritage line and as a re-opened part of the national network, this sale comes under two boards on the forum. See http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=8218.30 - that particular post (in the "Heritage Line" area) links to the OkeRail aspirations of in running as part of the national network, and concerns that selling it as a working heritage railway to a heritage rail / tourism business organisation might get in the way of its wider use.
Post by: Robin Summerhill on January 25, 2020, 06:27:14 pm
Quote from: grahame on January 25, 2020, 11:51:58 am
...OkeRail aspirations of in running as part of the national network, and concerns that selling it as a working heritage railway to a heritage rail / tourism business organisation might get in the way of its wider use.
Not a problem in itself. If needed, Transport & Works Orders allow for compulsory purchase.
Post by: mjones on January 25, 2020, 08:43:17 pm
However, considering the absurdly high costs now being discussed just to get to Tavistock, I can't see much prospect of those compulsory purchase powers being needed in the foreseeable future, sadly.
Post by: AMLAG on January 25, 2020, 09:08:38 pm
The escalating and now astronomical costs of about £90m for laying a single line from Bere Alston to Tavistock, most recently quoted by NR; no doubt including their 66% allowance for 'contingency purposes ', hopefully will now be reviewed by Devon County Council's Scrutiny Committee.
Who knows, someone else might well be able to do it much cheaper.
Quote from: Robin Summerhill on January 25, 2020, 06:27:14 pm
Quote from: mjones on January 25, 2020, 08:43:17 pm
Quote from: AMLAG on January 25, 2020, 09:08:38 pm
With both an officially supported re-opening of main network services to Okehampton and an officially rejected strategy of providing a second route to Plymouth via Okehampton and Tavistock, it would be very wise for any prospective purchaser to do a "due diligence" study - a "what if" exercise to plan their business to work with (and generate a profit or at least an income) from their asset. And it would be very wise for them to work with the various interests to allow assets to transfer in an orderly and forward-looking way.
Whilst compulsory purchase orders would be available at some unplanned (though not unforeseen by some) future date, what's the point at letting it get to that? As I understand it, that would be a needless extra step in a whole potential process.
From my armchair (which is not even in the county!), I would personally like to see a future with metro trains up to Okehampton from Exeter, and from Plymouth up to Tavistock, with a connecting single track between the two. Nothing that needs heavy engineering for fast running, but a suitable route for an hourly diverted long distance express (NOT running as an "express") should the other route via Newton Abbott be unavailable. I'm noticing yesterday than a skeleton London to Plymouth and Cornwall trains was running via Castle Cary rather than via Taunton, at short notice due to a fire just off the railway. Sensible if there's a problem to the north of Exeter, with no equivalent option if there's something to the south thereof. Back of fag packet in my armchair - 16 miles Okehampton to Tavistock, so 45 mph railway, single track all the way between the two, hourly emergency time service between them. In normal times, hourly Okehampton to Exeter, hourly Tavistock to Plymouth, services join up like links in a chain with an hourly through service with a single additional train. Appreciate that the mid section wouldn't be the busiest - especially in winter - but I suspect the overall economics would look a darned sight better than certain lines / services I could pick on in the British Isles away from Southern England where perhaps the political climate differs.
Post by: TaplowGreen on January 26, 2020, 08:24:58 am
If we accept that well over £100,000,000,000 is to be spent on HS2, it's perhaps hard to see much money being made available elsewhere for infrastructure work such as this - indeed it'll probably be used as an excuse not to.
Post by: ellendune on January 26, 2020, 08:32:46 am
Quote from: TaplowGreen on January 26, 2020, 08:24:58 am
They spent equivalent amounts of money building the M1 and M6 to relieve the 'classic' rad routes to the north. That did not stop them building the M4 and the M5 to the west at the same time did it.
Quote from: ellendune on January 26, 2020, 08:32:46 am
There is an argument for extending the M5 South to Plymouth given the problems the railway has coping with the sea at Dawlish and the problems the A38 has coping with the traffic particularly during the holiday season but increasingly for much of the year.
I'm sure a case can be made for both - persuading the Government to stump up the cash however may be a tougher challenge.
Post by: Red Squirrel on January 26, 2020, 10:53:57 am
There is an argument for extending the M5 South to Plymouth...
There is. There's also an argument that there is no such thing as anthropogenic climate change. But if we believe that there is a climate emergency, then it would be beyond absurd to seriously consider building new motorway.
I agree, but I was dealing with that one particular issue.
In fact, I'd go a little further and say that this line won't be reopened this side of the election of a majority Monster Raving Looney Party government.
Oh - wait... ;)
Quote from: Red Squirrel on January 26, 2020, 10:53:57 am
There is a very easy way to satisfy both sides. Build this as the country's first "electric only" motorway. That should ramp up sales of electric cars, which don't need fossil fuels but still need roads, show investment outside London, and tick dozens of boxes.
Post by: TaplowGreen on January 26, 2020, 05:30:14 pm
Quote from: TonyK on January 26, 2020, 05:15:17 pm
It could be called Electric Avenue.
Post by: RailCornwall on January 26, 2020, 07:08:00 pm
I'd love to see a route for the M5 to Plymouth, and the resultant Compulsory Purchase bill, remember the existing A38 would need to remain for local traffic in some form. So a 45 mile highway across some of the country's most expensive real estate would be 'fun'. There's an interesting conundrum in Cornwall on the A30 where plans are in hand to dual 'the last bit' between Chiverton and Carland. There's already discussion to extend from Treswithian to Hayle.
Post by: Jamsdad on January 26, 2020, 07:35:08 pm
Since the A 30 has been dualled through Devon and half way through Cornwall, there is not a great deal of holiday traffic that takes the A38 via Plymouth ( apart from Looe and Fowey traffic). I suspect a case for the M5 based on meeting holiday traffic needs would not be strong. As to having a resillient A 38 to meet Dawlish storm events, winter usage of the A 38 is not that high, and in such cases the rail replacement to Cornwall tends to go via Tiverton Parkway to A 30 to Bodmin.
New group to look at case for reopening the Northern Route
I'm very pleased to announce the formation of an ad hoc group looking at the case for reopening the #NorthernRoute. It's a team of highly respected rail industry experts examining the capability the railway would need to provide a local service and sufficient freight and diversionary capacity, as well as the potential for extending the #GraniteWay from Lydford to Tavistock, which could generate significant benefits too. We're keen to hear from organisations and individuals with a view on the reopening for or against and particularly those affected by the #Dawlish closure in 2014. At this early stage there are no preconceptions on the case and how the railway would operate, but if there is a case we're looking to develop a detailed and costed proposal for further discussion. If you do have a view, please get in touch with me either here or via the website - andrewroden.com - we strongly believe there could be a very positive case, but it is vital that if there is it is credible costed and developed in a way which maximises the benefits and treats individuals and organisations affected with the utmost decency and courtesy. The South West cannot depend on a single rail link, needs more transport investment, and #NorthernRoute could be critical in helping to generate economic, social and environmental benefits in a region too often overlooked by central government.
Further discussion on Twitter
https://twitter.com/andyroden1/status/1225344332498165760?s=21
Post by: Thatcham Crossing on February 06, 2020, 12:37:30 pm
It could be called Electric Avenue
...or perhaps the Electric Expressway, so that it keeps at least some of it's current naming.
Quote from: Thatcham Crossing on February 06, 2020, 12:37:30 pm
Stick with the original - I've already made plans to ask Eddy Grant to do the opening.
Quote from: bradshaw on February 06, 2020, 10:44:41 am
http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=10066.msg105825#msg105825
and from the website above (((link)) (http://www.andrewroden.com/index.htm))
Roden chaired the Save Our Sleeper campaign of 2005 which saved the 'Night Riviera' overnight train from Cornwall to London from closure, and is based in West Cornwall.
Excellent, getting experts together. From my "Save the Train" days
1. Make people aware there is a case to look at
2. Work out what would be [most] appropriate
3. Get that appropriate solution implemented
4. Work to make it a sustainable success
These overlap, and I believe the NorthernRoute campaign (as it is at the moment) is at stages 1. and early in 2. ... the quoted text suggests as much. It will switch from a campaign to a partnership - the NorthernRoute partnership or perhaps a different name if they so choose as a trusted implementation partner takes up the cause and takes over the reins (the driving seat) and orders of magnitude greater tasks of getting it from a refined paper case through to a class 198 or 757, 802 (or even 801) pulling out of Exeter St. Davids, northbound, headed for Plymouth arriving via Devonport with regular paying (unless public transport is free by then) passengers on board in the process of their normal journey. Phase 4 continues as a partnership - whether the wording is "A Community Rail Partnership" or "a member of the Community Rail Network" is just semantics - the key is so Make people aware, work out what's best, get it done, ensure it's kept.
For these early stage, I sat in my armchair and asked about a 45 m.p.h. standard calculated for loops at Okehampton and Tavistock ; another loop halfway between to double the capacity. I only asked, yet received a very strong email telling me that even asking this was detrimental to the case, and it should be 60 m.p.h. to allow loops at Okehampton and Bere Alston instead, and to avoid a capacity bottleneck at Ernesettle; fair enough on the technical side. Working towards the "find most appropriate solution", I strongly refute the argument that my input was detrimental; rather, I believe it strengthens the discussion towards the right case - whether that's 45, 60, 90, or HSn.
I look forward to seeing "what is most appropriate" moved forward under the strong technical team I read of.
Post by: IndustryInsider on February 09, 2020, 09:17:39 am
As ever though, it's a mighty big chasm between steps 2 and 3.
Quote from: IndustryInsider on February 09, 2020, 09:17:39 am
Yes, there are many ducks to get in a line before that jump can be made, and steps 1 and 2 need to be worked out and agreed ... then there's a wait and / or a chivvying of the ducks so they're lined up. Many projects will wait for ever to jump the chasm, some will fall into it - but projects really need to have faith to get through the first two steps to be ready to jump should an opportunity arise, and to keep looking for that opportunity.
Also to look at helping make that opportunity by shaping strategic policy via consultation inputs, etc, so the project fits, getting in onto politician's agendas, keep reminding people how appropriate and supported the project is, etc.
Should we be seeking out cheap solutions, or demanding the best? This really seems to divide opinion.
You might think that asking for a few tens of thousands to sort out a problem at one station would be more likely to get a result than, say, asking for hundreds of millions to sort out a whole route. History suggests otherwise. If we beg for the crumbs from the table, it seems we are unlikely to be taken seriously. Given the current climate, why not demand the table and all the food on it, plus some extra for contingency and optimism bias?
At the early stages, we should evaluate options of both types to the point of having numbers alongside them - in terms of cost, and in terms of BCR. We should look at the differences in terms of wider benefits and what each will bring and won't bring.
Only when we have the clear evaluated comparison do we need to make the final choice - perhaps not even them as we see what funding route(s) come in to meet one of the excellent cases
I would certainly say that if you put in "X" effort to get "Y" funding, you are going to have to put in far less than 10x"X" to get 10x"Y" of funding should there be a pot of 10x"Y"accessible.
Out of curiosity, if/when services to Okehampton are reinstated, is it likely that the junction with the Barnstaple like would be moved back to Coleford - or Yeoford - to turn the two parallel single lines into a double track/passing loop stretch? With or without this, what would/could be the likely impact on the Barnstaple line services (stopping/service patterns, frequency)?
If it were possible to enhance Barnstaple services thanks to added flexibility provided by a double track stretch between Crediton & Coleford, this would surely help the case along.
Post by: The Tall Controller on February 11, 2020, 04:39:52 pm
You would also need to re-instate the second platform at Yeoford as well as extend Crediton's signalling capabilities out to Coleford.
All completely possible I'd imagine, but someone would need to foot the bill.
A conversion of part of the former Tavistock North railway station and platform - marketed as "The Ticketing Hall" - is now on the market for a £275,000 guide price.
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/uk-news/inside-former-railway-station-ticket-18609354
https://www.onthemarket.com/details/8709510/
What is the general view of how a reopened Okehampton-Tavistock-Bere Alston line would go through this area?
Post by: Robin Summerhill on July 19, 2020, 05:21:51 pm
Quote from: Lee on July 19, 2020, 03:58:11 pm
In a nutshell, with difficulty.
Tavisyock station is the least of the problems. There is a large District Council Office complex to the east of the station, and housing development to the west. Then there is the viaduct, and whether that is suitable for a modern railway to use it is an unknown, at least to me. The same applies to Shillamill viaduct, and of course Meldon.
On top of all that, I thought one of the justifications for even thinking about reopening was that reopening of Bere Alston to Tavistock was going to happen anyway. But this of course was originally planed to stop on the south west outskirts of the existing town, so the viaduct and former station area would not have been distubed by it. The last I heard even that was up in the air. Does anybody have a recent update?
Post by: Umberleigh on July 19, 2020, 07:45:09 pm
I feel the only hope now for Tavistock is if trains can be brought back to Okehampton and demand far exceeds expectations (as has happened with reopening elsewhere). There might then be the political will to reopen to the site short of the old Tavistock station. I would hope the brick viaducts were to prove up to the task. If Tavistock is a huge success then who know? Offices and houses aren't about to stop HS2 being built.
Quote from: Umberleigh on July 19, 2020, 07:45:09 pm
Offices and houses aren't about to stop HS2 being built.
Of course they won't. But one way or another thay will have to be paid for, be it by compensation or good old fashioned Compulsory Purchase. And that will increase the costs of any scheme.
And, being realistic, although a view not probably shared by all on this forum, HS2 will be by far a greater strategic benefit to the UK than Exeter to Plymouth via Okehampton could ever hope to be. Some in South Devon, Cornwall and Taplow might beg to differ ;D
Post by: RichardB on July 19, 2020, 09:07:47 pm
Quote from: Robin Summerhill on July 19, 2020, 05:21:51 pm
Bere Alston - Tavistock is being considered by the Department for Transport under the "Accelerating Existing Proposals" section of the Beeching Reversal or "Restoring Your Railway Fund". Yes, the station would be in the south west corner of the town, surrounded by new housing from which there is a S106 contribution available for the railway - something like up to £11.5 million, I think. A reopened line heading north of that would have to go through the old station site and the whole site including the council offices would need a lot of reorganisation. I would guess the old Up platform would be brought back into use!
Post by: TonyK on July 20, 2020, 11:36:10 am
Quote from: RichardB on July 19, 2020, 09:07:47 pm
The council has said before that it will happily move their offices if that is what it takes. I think, though, that the Accelerating Current Proposals scheme may be the last roll of the dice, with the best alternative being to maintain passive provision for what will be the distant future.
Post by: TonyK on August 11, 2020, 09:54:06 pm
A small update from Okehampton Times (https://www.okehampton-today.co.uk/article.cfm?id=438578&headline=Work%20behind%20scenes%20on%20Okehampton%20rail%20service%C2%A7ionIs%3Dnews&searchyear=2020&cat=Transport&fbclid=IwAR3f12cvF6wixL7Ky4CLxYBsJKfmiXIdWnxTCcRZYk0mPHdCJszVwI6bNJM).
Work behind scenes on Okehampton rail service
Thursday, 30 July 2020 - Transport
Sarah Pitt
by Sarah Pitt - Senior Reporter
@okeytimes sarah.pitt@okehampton-today.co.uk
AS a question mark continues to hang over the future of the Dartmoor Railway at Okehampton, Devon County Council has confirmed that work continues behind the scenes to bring a regular rail service back between the town and Exeter, writes Sarah Pitt.
The county council owns the station at Okehampton, which has been shut up since Dartmoor Railway went into administration in February.
It has confirmed that the Sunday Rover passenger service on summer Sundays from Okehampton to Exeter, subsidised by the county council, will not take place at all this summer.
However, the county council has said work continues on the long-awaited regular passenger service.
A spokesperson said: 'Network Rail and GWR [Great Western Railway] are continuing to work in partnership to understand the feasibility of reopening the Okehampton line to regular passenger services, which has the potential to be funded by the Department for Transport's 'Restoring your Railway Fund'.
'Surveys and further development work will continue throughout the summer, which will allow a funding application to be submitted. A decision on the outcome of this funding is expected by early 2021.'
Post by: southwest on August 12, 2020, 03:46:07 pm
Quote from: TonyK on August 11, 2020, 09:54:06 pm
If I remember rightly the Dartmoor Railway hardly own anything only a few locomotives and rolling stock? The railway is owned by Aggregates and the station by DCC.
Quote from: southwest on August 12, 2020, 03:46:07 pm
Yes, you're right. Add the café equipment, tables etc too and tools and some maintenance equipment and that'll be about it.
Admins if this is not suitable in this post please feel free to move.
Any subscribers to RAIL magazine who have received their copy might wonder about the possibility of reopening new services if you read the article by Christian Wolmar.
He talks of the current cost of running the railway, potential for 2nd wave of Coronavirus and impacts upon the railway. Passenger numbers at only 16-23% of what they were the same week last year. The cost to Government of £700m a month and plans to cut services in sparsely populated areas. Cornwall Branch lines are mentioned specifically as well as other areas.
Described as worst cuts since Beeching resulting in redundancies and service cuts, even to inter City services. There is much more in the full article but must provide some concerns at least.
As a railway worker myself, I hope none of this is true, but if it is I think ANY plans to reopen any rail lines would be in severe jeopardy.
This could put the railway back a considerable amopunt of time
Post by: RichardB on August 13, 2020, 12:28:08 am
Quote from: trainbuff on August 12, 2020, 09:56:44 pm
It's important to read Nigel Harris' editorial alongside this. I think Nigel is more on the money than Christian. We'll see where we go from here. Nigel's point that the crunch could come 18 months from now sounds right.
The truth is we don't know what is going to happen in a years time, certainly things have changed. I do wonder if it will practical to have Crossrail service Paddington - Reading when GWR are already providing a good service to those lines with 387s.
Good subject, but I may indeed split it
Even a week is a long time in politics ... but a decades is but the blink of an eye when it comes to re-opening a railway via Okehampton and Tavistock, and it's interesting to look at how the two timescales interact.
Lots of unknowns at the moment ... from yesterday's presentation I did at http://melksh.am/cc
(http://www.wellho.net/pix/qnscovid.jpg)
I wonder at what will be needed in the Thames Valley, but with so many trains available and just waiting to run at Old Oak, I suspect we would / will see them come into play. If there are too many electric trains floating around, here, the 387s could migrate away or we could even get on and do some more electrification. More of a political timescale on that with the climate agenda. My presentation above suggested we should be looking at electrification to Warminster and Frome.
Due to Corona Virus we live in "Dark Days", the Railways are costing government a lot of money due to the lack of passengers and services are being (generally) kept up to roughly normal services, often with extra coaches to allow social distancing.
But the Corona Virus emergency is only TEMPORARY
Only 1 of 2 things can happen with Corona Virus,
One a Vaccine will be found and life can slowly return to a new normal. or
Two Corona Virus will slowly work it's way through the population, (quite quickly in the case of the USA) and life will return to the new normal.
The new normal will be much as pre-virus but many jobs will have been lost and MANY will work from home reducing Peak hour travel greatly, but remember per journey Season ticket holders generally have the Cheapest tickets. There may well be a change in rush hour train services.
But the Governments greatest task will be to get Britain working and the Economy back on track.
Construction is a great way to get things moving, well new offices won't be needed, to many working from home, New hospitals and Schools would help, New Electric (ONLY) vehicle Motorways are an idea, but building (rebuilding) railways and electrification of existing lines of would be a great way to get Britain working again.
And rebuilding the Waverley route back to Carlisle, Rebuilding the LSWR from Exeter to Plymouth, and a NEW railway from Okehampton to Launceston (electified) and on to the Cornish main line at Bodmin would be a good start.
Post by: southwest on September 11, 2020, 01:59:33 pm
There is no such thing as a 'new normal' it's just media speak to cause fear and panic. We didn't have a 'new normal' after the 2008 recession, nor after Swine Flu. Life changes as things evolve, tha's just general life.
So far as trains to Okehampton are concerned, things may have been going on quietly in the background, according to a lengthy article in The Moorlander (https://themoorlander.co.uk/oke-rail-update-light-at-the-end-of-the-tunnel/?fbclid=IwAR1jFzdb4CYbn9SKWuSZzcCNnhmVSpN3rEnPdvWVNEIwv3xmHkN6sz6Hjs0)
Oke rail UPDATE - light at the end of the tunnel?
Posted By Eric Partridge on Oct 16, 2020
(https://themoorlander.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/BEFORE_01.09.20_Tors-Road-Bridge_Credit-Network-Rail.jpg)
BEFORE 1 september 2020, Tors Road Bridge Credit Network Rail
Over the course of the last few years this newspaper has, in association with all of the various action groups and other interested parties, been campaigning incessantly for the reinstatement of the Okehampton to Exeter railway line, which was axed as a result of the ?Beeching? cuts in 1972.
More recently run as a heritage service by Dartmoor Railway ? operated by Dartmoor Railway Community Interest Company (DRCIC) ? the passenger experience included summer excursions and the Polar Express Christmas specials before their whole UK business was packaged for sale by its US owners IOWA Pacific, the troubled holding company of British American Railway Services (BARS).
(https://themoorlander.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/AFTER-06.10.20_Tors-Road-Bridge_Credit-Network-Rail.jpg)
AFTER 6 October 2020, Tors Road Bridge Credit Network Rail
(Continues at source...) (https://themoorlander.co.uk/oke-rail-update-light-at-the-end-of-the-tunnel/?fbclid=IwAR1jFzdb4CYbn9SKWuSZzcCNnhmVSpN3rEnPdvWVNEIwv3xmHkN6sz6Hjs0)
Glad to read that progress is being made (and the news that the quarry may need to be used again strengthens the case for reopening markedly). Apart from that, I enjoyed reading the article itself, quite well-written for once!
Very much my view, too, on all points. There may be some that don't like the sound of a connection with HS2, but there could yet be evidence of collateral benefit.
From the Northern Route Working Group (https://northernrouteworkinggroup.wordpress.com/2020/12/10/devon-green-main-line-reopening-will-transform-transport-across-the-south-west/)
"Making the case to reopen the Exeter-Plymouth railway via Okehampton and Tavistock"
Reopening the ?Northern Route? throughout from Exeter to Plymouth via Okehampton and Tavistock will provide transformative transport links to large parts of Devon and Cornwall, including direct trains to London, says the group examining a reopened electrified main line railway between Exeter and Plymouth via Okehampton and Tavistock.
Summary of the scheme
Core hourly daytime service to be provided by extension of South Western Railway London Waterloo-Exeter services to run to Plymouth via Okehampton and Tavistock to maximise passenger benefits and reduce additional rolling stock requirements; extra peak time trains possible if needed.
Route to be electrified throughout with in cab signalling and engineered to accommodate potential freight traffic which is currently deterred by perceived fragility of the coastal main line and steep gradients west of Newton Abbot.
Non-stop journey time from Exeter to Plymouth of 59 minutes; Exeter to Okehampton journey times of c22 minutes; Okehampton to Tavistock of c19 minutes, and Tavistock to Plymouth of c22 minutes.
Surge capacity in diversionary mode by ?flighting? trains of 3-4 trains per hour max.
Double-track railway from Exeter to Okehampton/Meldon, single track (extent to be confirmed in SOBC) through parts of Dartmoor to limit environmental impact; double track from Tavistock to Plymouth.
Potential for express connecting bus links from Okehampton serving Torrington, Holsworthy, Launceston/Bude, and Wadebridge/Padstow to provide faster East-West journeys from Exeter and beyond to those places than is currently possible by public transport.
Existing Gunnislake and Barnstaple branch services retained in full and enhanced.
Potential east-west chord line at Cowley Bridge Junction providing a direct connection from the Great Western Main Line from Taunton to Exeter, allowing trains to avoid congestion at Exeter St David?s station, and opening significant new through journey opportunities.
Summary of scheme benefits
A huge boost in transport connectivity to Mid, West, and North Devon and North Cornwall, leading to major improvement in social inclusion and access to work and education for those unable to drive or without a car.
A permanent and coherent response to the challenge of climate change.
Gives Network Rail the ability to close the coastal main line for longer to undertake its long-term resilience programme by diverting trains onto the reopened railway. This capability will make the interventions necessary cheaper, quicker and more effective, providing South Devon and Torbay with a more reliable railway far quicker than if the ?Northern Route? was not open.
Reduced road congestion and accidents on the A386 road between Tavistock and Plymouth, lower road traffic in and around Dartmoor and fewer lorry movements with potential for freight trains
Lower CO2 emissions from transport by operation of electric trains.
Opening the full through route will be much more viable economically than operating separate stubs from Exeter to Okehampton and Tavistock to Plymouth. It is the only way the full benefits of serving Tavistock and Okehampton by rail can be realised.
There's a lot more at the URL above ... quoting quite a lot here, encouraged by the following which points towards "spread the word" rather than "we want this to be our idea and keep copyright". Also via Facebook https://www.facebook.com/NorthernRouteWG/
The Exeter-Plymouth via Okehampton and Tavistock railway closed as a through route in 1968, with stubs retained from Exeter to Meldon and Plymouth to Bere Alston (for the Gunnislake branch) to serve local communities and businesses. The passenger service from Okehampton to Exeter is expected to be reinstated next year.
Tavistock Okehampton Reopening Scheme CIC (TORS) is a formal body set up by members of the expert Northern Route Working Group, which has spent the last year examining the case. All work has been done on a pro bono basis to develop the case for a Strategic Outline Business Case and further work.
Sharing the illustrations - a picture painting a thousand words
(http://www.wellho.net/pix/tors_202012_01.jpg)
Post by: TonyN on December 10, 2020, 09:01:18 am
Goody Waterloo - Plymouth even further without refreshments.
Quote from: TonyN on December 10, 2020, 09:01:18 am
Always one... ;D
I like the way this has been presented - doubled throughout and electrified to boot! Better to start big and get bargained down, rather than ask for an hourly Turbo on a single track and get nowt.
Hopefully, we will at least get an official announcement on Okehampton soon, rather than the present build up of Chinese whispers.
Post by: RichardB on December 10, 2020, 02:32:48 pm
Quote from: TonyK on December 10, 2020, 01:00:16 pm
We've had the Government commitment to reopening Okehampton, Tony. It was in the National Infrastructure Strategy issued by the Treasury for the Autumn Statement a couple of weeks back. What we don't yet know is the specification they are buying.
Post by: grahame on December 10, 2020, 04:05:08 pm
I like the way this has been presented - doubled throughout and electrified to boot! Better to start big and get bargained down, ...
Almost ...
Sample timetable is showing a 19 minute journey from Okehampton to Tavistock, with 13 minutes at one and and 9 minutes at the other to avoid any waiting around for a train that's a few minutes late coming off that section. Not clear about local traffic Okehampton to Sampford Courtney / Yeoford / Crediton / Newton St Cyres flows (though I imagine that a couple of those journeys would be as rare as Barry Docks to Barry Links), nor Barnstaple to Plymouth journeys that look like they need to double back at Exeter during the daytime cycle?
Post by: trainbuff on December 10, 2020, 07:41:00 pm
I am pleased to see this proposal which is similar to what I did for Destination Okehampton and Peninsula Rail Group (PRG) around 5 years ago. Mine had slightly less double track but was workable. I may be wrong too, please correct me if I am, but there appears to be a stopper train at Tavistock between xx52 and xx32. Or to put it another way for 40 minutes. It can shunt after the through departs at 28, but this unit is effectively blocking the route to other services such as freight for forty minutes. This must surely be an error in the sample timetable
Quote from: trainbuff on December 10, 2020, 07:41:00 pm
As I see it, if you have a single line from Tavistock to Meldon/Okehampton, there's not much room for anything other than the hourly service each way while that runs so that 40 mins at Tavistock wouldn't matter very much. The cost of the scheme is such that if you did decide to put in a bay at the new Tavistock station to get the terminator out of the way, it wouldn't really make a lot of difference moneywise. If you're going to do this, what is another, say, ?10m?
A little puzzled by Graham's comment about waiting time - the sample timetable shows one minute calls at Okehampton and Tavistock.
Post by: Bob_Blakey on December 11, 2020, 09:49:50 am
As far as I can discern the original alignment of the LWSR route between Okehampton & Tavistock was double track. It is intended that the reinstated service will reuse this alignment. I therefore do not understand why this section of line has to be 'single track...through parts of Dartmoor to limit environmental impact.' Have I missed something obvious?
Quote from: Bob_Blakey on December 11, 2020, 09:49:50 am
It's my understanding that cuttings and embankments degrade over time - the ones I've heard about are lines which haven't closed but rather have been singled, and to put double track back on them would require catching up with half a century of earthwork. A single track might go back in the middle of a reduced formation??
Post by: Jamsdad on December 11, 2020, 11:41:51 am
Am I right in thinking there is also an issue of an existing cycle track on part the old trackbed?
Post by: Richard Fairhurst on December 11, 2020, 01:21:35 pm
Yes - the Devon Coast-to-Coast (NCN 27) between Meldon and Lydford, and then for a short way on the run-in to Tavistock.
Post by: Red Squirrel on December 11, 2020, 01:34:35 pm
Yes, by now many culverts will have collapsed, cess drains will be blocked, and tree roots will have got into everything. All that will need to be sorted out.
It's probably a bigger issue that the original formation would not have allowed for modern track access requirements, and won't have grandfather rights. If existing bridges are to be re-used, it may well be that they will only accommodate a single track now. Shame it wasn't broad gauge!
Post by: Robin Summerhill on December 11, 2020, 04:20:15 pm
One of the justifications for this in the report is the suggestion that, as a result of climate change, the Dawlish route could be disrupted for up to 120 days a a year by 2080. If (big if) this were to be the case then it would mean that the existing service from the east to Dawlish, Teignmouth, Newton Abbott, Torquay, Paignton and Totnes would be unsustainable.
Taking his logic one step further, as these places would still need a direct service to Exeter and London, it makes much more of a case for the inland diversion option of the GWR route than it does for reopening the northern route.
Post by: Andy on December 11, 2020, 07:50:42 pm
Looking at the proposal, it seems as if there is one new station proposed: at Tavistock. A stop at Lydford (for Lydford Gorge) with a passing loop would cut the single track section in half.
Quote from: Andy on December 11, 2020, 07:50:42 pm
Yes, you're right. Just one extra station - Tavistock. It is such a rural area between Tavistock and Okehampton that personally I don't think you could justify a station at Lydford or anywhere else between the two. Lydford Gorge would attract some custom but I can't see it being huge. As for another loop, depends what you want the line to do and what the Government would be prepared to pay for.
I think Okehampton Parkway, a mile or so east of Okehampton station, has a really good chance of success and suspect that will be something to factor in to these proposals.
If the expected full reopening of Exeter - Okehampton next year is a huge success (as we all hope - and yes, those involved, including me, know the issues and limitations), that will lay the groundwork for this and, if not this, then Bere Alston - Tavistock.
Exciting times.
Post by: IndustryInsider on December 11, 2020, 11:57:51 pm
I am pleased to see this proposal which is similar to what I did for Destination Okehampton and Peninsula Rail Group (PRG) around 5 years ago.
Quote from: RichardB on December 11, 2020, 08:37:33 pm
Let's hope this does indeed move forward in the next five years, and we're not just looking at more similar proposals by then.
Post by: paul7575 on December 12, 2020, 11:53:43 am
Quote from: Robin Summerhill on December 11, 2020, 04:20:15 pm
That sounds suspiciously like the ?do nothing? scenario at Dawlish. Newsflash, they?re already doing something at Dawlish designed for the conditions expected in 2115...
Post by: smokey on December 12, 2020, 02:16:40 pm
I can never get my head round the fact that people knock sensible schemes like rebuilding the old LSWR route from Exeter to Plymouth.
The plan is to return services to Okehampton (a new Railhead for much of East and North Cornwall) I'm certainly looking forward to be able to take "Normal" train services to Okehampton, I just hope there is a sensible level of service from day 1.
But to extend on to Tavistock and on to Plymouth just makes sense, Tavistock and Okehampton have expanded greatly in recent years with many new homes.
Rail Freight hardly exists in Cornwall mainly because would be freight users know only too well that the Dawlish line can go down at ANYTIME, and the rails from Newton Abbot to Plymouth have some off the shortest rail head life due to the steepness off and the sharp bends across the South Downs meaning on some days every year there are NO services between Exeter and Plymouth whilst Rail replacement occurs.
The sooner the Northern route reopens via Lydford the Better.
PS As an extra comment the Operating department of BR wasn't at all happy to loose the LSWR route from Plymouth to Exeter and I understand around 1971 a class 25 Locomotive and inspection saloon was arrange at Laira to work from Plymouth to Exeter, at Plymouth the PW inspection team complained the Inspection saloon was to be pushed and not hauled!
It was still believed by at the operating department at the time that the Southern Metals STILL existed from Bere Alston to Meldon.
I hope someone who worked for BR can confirm this event
Electric cars will bring a big change in travel patterns.
Whilst an electric car might have the range to travel Exeter to London, it would need to recharge before returning, and it takes a long time (typically 8 hours or more) to sensibly fully charge a Electric Car.
There is an option to rapid charge an electric car BUT it's my understanding from a Battery Expert that rapid charging takes up 1% from the Battery life, this depends on just how fast the rapid charge is (and for how long).
But after 50 rapid charges the battery power is down to around only 70% of Power available when new, as he puts it, Battery's are like people they can work VERY hard but they need to rest.
And whilst an Electric car might have a range of 250 miles on a full charge that's at an average speed of 27MPH.
I don?t know if either of the last two posts were aimed at me, but whether they were or not I will clarify my position. I have no problem with reopening Plymouth to Okehampton. If a business case can be made for it and the money can be found then that is OK by me.
What I do have a problem with is getting my head around the contention that somehow this will be a panacea for south Devon and Cornwall.
The principle problem for the railway in that part of the world is that the competition is very strong. There is now a motorway or dual carriageway from Plymouth and Carland Cross near Redruth to Chiswick in the east and to Scotland in the north. A rail replacement bus can get from Bodmin to Tiverton Parkway faster than the train can do it. Reopening the moorland route will do nothing to address that, and it is doubtful that the existing GW route can do much about it either.
What is needed is a high speed line from London to Plymouth and ideally beyond. Much of that is already there as far as Exeter and the problem is further west, where gradients, curvature and a winding route especially in Cornwall all contribute to the problem.
So far from a ?do nothing? stance my position is the complete opposite. We need to find a way to considerably increase speeds west of Exeter. If that involves building new sections of railway, and it probably would, then we should be concentrating on that and getting on with it pronto. If we can have the Okehampton route as well then that would be icing on the cake, but whatever happens it will be always be the secondary route to the far west.
I share your hopes for Okehampton-Exeter, especially as any further reinstatement between Bere Alston and Tavistock, or beyond, is, to a certain extent, contingent on its success.
Post by: Pb_devon on June 18, 2021, 08:08:15 am
Devon County Council have submitted a bid for funding a business case, see this news story:
https://www.devonnewscentre.info/funding-bid-submitted-for-rail-reinstatement-business-case/
Is this new news?
Post by: Jamsdad on June 18, 2021, 02:37:28 pm
Pity the photo is of the Calstock viaduct which is not on the Tavi-Okehampton route!
Post by: AMLAG on June 18, 2021, 10:51:11 pm
The viaduct correctly pictured is Shillamill between Bere Alston and Tavistock.
Post by: TonyK on June 18, 2021, 11:41:57 pm
Quote from: Pb_devon on June 18, 2021, 08:08:15 am
It was once.
Post by: grahame on June 20, 2021, 11:35:38 am
Quote from: TonyK on June 18, 2021, 11:41:57 pm
From RailFuture Campaigners on Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/groups/12135242142/?multi_permalinks=10157758031462143) - sharing a comment on that story which has more than an echo of truth in it.
The backstory here is a corker. The previous plan made it all the way to the Planning Inspectorate's procedure for major projects and was quietly withdrawn while being considered, a very unusual step. The Devon County part of the intended funding was switched to roadbuilding. The plan seems to have been nixed by a combination of escalating costs (gold plating from Network Rail) and tarmac-sniffing from Devon County Council. Like Lazarus, the plan is back which is good. It has fallen down the snakes and now has to start again at the bottom of the ladders.
Post by: infoman on July 05, 2021, 07:20:27 am
BBC spotlight local news for the south west of England on Monday 5th july,
have a report that network rail have purchased okehampton station and surrounding area from the aggregate company.
Passenger services expected to start in december 2021
Post by: paul7575 on July 05, 2021, 03:16:45 pm
Quote from: infoman on July 05, 2021, 07:20:27 am
The Okehampton station and branch reopening progress has its own more current thread here:
A recent post links to the Network Rail press release.
Post by: Andyroden on September 10, 2021, 02:12:16 pm
It's been a while since I posted on here, but having set up the Northern Route Working Group with Mat Taylor of Cornwall-based CNNCT Consultancy, I thought I'd say hello and try when I have time to answer any questions on the full reopening.
If you've read the public bid (https://northernrouteworkinggroup.wordpress.com/), a lot of questions will be answered. When we started this work, I think the expert team (which includes former Thameslink MD and Plymouth and Cornwall Railways manager Jim Collins, Jim Steer of Greengauge 21, Professor Jon Shaw of Plymouth Uni, and others offering informal input such as Richard Burningham) all believed diversions would be the main benefit.
What we're confident we can demonstrate with funding for a Strategic Outline Business Case is that there may very well be a wide-ranging (in number as well as geographically) set of social, economic and environmental benefits which make a worthwhile case in its own right, and of course, providing there's enough speed and capacity, that enables our friends at Network Rail to entertain blockades on the main line to undertake resilience work and bring completion forward from the 2070s as well as saving very significant sums.
We have the full support of ALL of Devon and Cornwall's MPs (which we never quite had with the Save Our Sleeper campaign), and when we briefed the Rail Minister a while ago, he acknowledged the RYR bid was much improved.
Crucially, Devon County Council is calling Bere Alston to Tavistock Phase 2 of full reopening.
With everyone's efforts in the NRWG team and the wider community supporting it, we must have a good chance of establishing the case for full reopening as a secondary (but damn quick over quite a lot of it) main line to radically improved transport connectivity in Mid, West and North Devon and Cornwall, open our region to more railfreight by virtue of the easier gradients compared to the main line, and keep the region connected to the wider network during disruption, whether planned or otherwise.
We're expecting an announcement later this year - please, please continue to bang the drum folks. If the vast railway operating, management, engineering and consultancy expertise in the team thought this work was misty-eyed wishful thinking they wouldn't have given their expensive time freely and for so long. The case looks good: we now need funding to put some numbers on the potential benefits and costs.
I'll do my best to answer any questions you have when I log in.
Andy Roden
Northern Route Working Group
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