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Originally Posted by Talon87
And even from a non-romantic point of view, getting Tsugumi to be on good terms with me would have been a crucial aspect of my mission. It's like Yomogi says in Remember11: one person can spell the death of the entire team, and so complete teamwork is crucial. Tsugumi was not being a team player early on in the game. It was therefore crucial that I get her to be. If having to hurt Sora's feelings by siding with Tsugumi in an argument was one of the ways to do that, then so be it. Sora's intelligent. She could probably figure out why I acted the way I did. If not, I could always go and tell her later. But Tsugumi was mistrustful and hotheaded. If I had sided with Sora, even if Sora's argument was the more sound, Tsugumi would have seen that as me being "against" her, and hope of bringing Tsugumi into the fold would have diminished considerably.
Hadn't thought of it like that at the time, though by Remember11 that certainly was the case for how I was looking at things. I think I got into that mentality because Kokoro was so darn ineffective - Yomogi might have played Sora's role for Remember11, but he was the only alternative source of wisdom. No contribution from Mayuzumi, nor from Kokoro when she was there. And from what I've seen of Satoru, since he can't remember a lot of stuff he's not a whole lot better.
Since Kokoro was so handicapped by herself, she had to rely on the group's strength to survive. I think that made it eased in the desire to cooperate. In comparison, I think most of the Ever17 cast could have survived on their own for the week, but perhaps not escape in time.
Something I liked about Ever17 was how everyone was smart. Not just knowledgeable, they were resourceful and cooperative. There was great chemistry among the cast (due to similarity in age?) that lead to greater accomplishment than similar groups. Remember11's party would have been doomed without Yomogi, while I got the impression Ever17's group might have been able to compensate a little without Sora. Sora made things too easy at times, but that managed to defuse a lot of major problems. Other times she was indispensable, like with the blackout, but it is possible the group could have worked out of that.
'Till we meet again
Location: Searching for the summer endroll
Completed Sora's path. Gah, where's the epilogue? Did Takeshi not escape this time either? >.<; Man, he gets the short end of the stick compared to Kid.
I see now where the Tsugumi/Sora divide stems from. Had I played Sora's path first, I probably would've hated Tsugumi as much as Dopple. Having learned Tsugumi's circumstances first, I felt horrible for being cruel to her during Sora's story, despite what happened in the Qualle.
As for the romantic aspect of the story... Hm, I'm not really sure what my feelings on "virtual" love are. I liked the reference to the story of Pygmalion since it's one of my favorite Greek myths, but at the same time I think it's a tragically dumb tale. I was happy to "voice disagreement" in response to the version You told during Tsugumi's path, but was loathe to nod my head and agree with the "happy ending" for Sora's sake (at least I assume those choices matter). Pining over an artificial body who can't think, feel, or speak... Is not love. It's just an unhealthy obsession.
Clearly, Takeshi's and Sora's relationship is on a completely different level. Which is why I enjoyed the Pygmalion allusion, but hated the manner in which it was applied to Takeshi x Sora. Disregarding that, I still have conflicting feelings about AI romance... Well, I'll set those aside. I liked the story, and Sora herself. Though she creeped me out a little at times compared to her roles in other paths. o.O;
Anyway, just need to clear Sara's path now, right? And then I gain access to Coco's?
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時の彼方へ
Location: Lafayette, Indiana
That's correct. Time to find out what the backstory is of the superficially least impressive member of the cast, Matsunaga Sara. Though once you find it out, you might see Sara in a more wholesome light. I did.
You're really rushing through this, though. Tell us what you've observed! Tell us about any oddities or inconsistencies you may have noticed. The game is much more subtle than Remember11 but packs just as many punches if not more. For example, to make the Remember11 comparison ...
Remember11 spoilers:
Did you notice the moon? Did you notice the 33-minute gap?
There are similar clues which become obvious, or at least have the chance to become obvious, once you've seen as much of the game as you have. But you're not mentioning any of them! ^^; Let us know what's going through your mind! For starters ...
Why do you think the people are even at LeMU in the first place?
Why is Coco absent from Kid's path? Why is Sara absent from Takeshi's path?
What is the deal with the statues?
There are other questions I could ask you, too -- questions I asked when I was at your stage -- but they're much too leading and could potentially spoil the ending for you if I lead you into them. It's safest if you ask them yourself, so until you do, I can't even bring them up. But there are lots of other questions you should have if you've been keeping your eyes wide open.
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Well, I do go back and follow up on (mostly your) old posts once I finish a path. So I'm considering the parallel worlds theory. And I know the statues are important, but I haven't been able to discern anything just by looking at them. I'm guessing the directions they point in mean something though.
As I play as Kid again, I remember one thing that stuck out at me was that both Kid and Takeshi thought that the other was late to show up to a meeting spot. This reminded me of something in the Haruhi novels that has to do with time. In fact, a lot of happenings so far felt similar to this story.
Haruhi Book VI spoilers (Sorry, Talon =/)
The chapter I'm thinking of is Snow Mountain Syndrome. Dopple, do you get what I'm saying? How time flowed differently in different parts of the mansion... I don't know if this is off the mark or not. But another thing is that some character in Ever17 (I forget who, I think it might've been Sora or Tsugumi, or both) talked about "preserving copies" of the self, and questioned whether that "copy" was the same as the "original". Didn't Itsuki in SNS raise the same questions as to why the group was trapped inside the mansion?
And Tsugumi just said something about "throw[ing] LeMU off its axis." Could she be referring to the time or dimensional axis?
As for Remember11...
Didn't notice the moon, but I did sense something was off about the timing once I started Satoru's chapter. Something had to have occurred between transfers. There was no other explanation for some of the events.
I think she just meant the physical axis. I don't remember the context of the line nor its exact wording, but I think she meant that LeMU (a roughly vertical structure), if thrown off its axis, would then tumble down into the ocean depths in no time flat.
Also: reading my old posts is painful. What an asshole! "I do not need you to tell me," I tell Doppel in one post about how to read Japanese names. Jesus H. Christ, Talon. He knows you speak the language, he's just trying to be friendly and share some of his own insight. Jeezus. >_<;
Last edited by Talon87; 10-23-2010 at 06:51 PM.
Aw. Nevermind then. ^^;
Just found out that Kid is indeed Sara's brother... Although I get the feeling "cloning" may play a role in this. We shall see...
Edit- Gah! Another Bad End. >.<;
Edit2- Phew. Easily reparable.
Last edited by lilbluecorsola; 10-23-2010 at 07:07 PM.
Well, you can read 'em. I can't stop you from reading them, lol; and the me who wrote them in 2007 certainly wanted them to be read and replied to. I just hope you won't read them and judge my character by them. ^^;
Snow Mountain Syndrome plays heavily into Infinity works, I won't say if it's comparable to Ever17 though.
Sara is indeed the least impressive of the heroines, but I think the big reason why is she's not exactly romance material. ^^; I liked her ending the best of Kid's two, though, it was suitably dramatic and the promise the two make in the epilogue extremely powerful, about as powerful as it could have been given their relationship.
Originally Posted by lilbluecorsola
What is different about Sora is she's not just a statue, like what Pygmalion was obsessing over. She is a real person who couldn't act like other real people because of her nature. She's worked at LeMU for many years, and has experienced meeting/helping countless visitors to the facility, but could never get closer to any of them because they knew she wasn't real - they'd close their minds to her feelings because they don't see her as much more than a program. Sora wasn't just self-aware, she wanted to become human.
This is why Sora tried to hide that her body was a hologram for so long - she wanted to see how she'd be treated if people didn't know she was artificial. It was new experience for her, brought about by accidental circumstances. When she saw how everyone treated her as another person, she kept up the act. Nobody started treating her as a program after that because they'd grown to appreciate her as a human before ever knowing she wasn't one.
Sora's Path was my favourite of the four original paths because it was the only one where someone recognized the signifiance of her delicate existence. Sora made friends for the first time with the LeMU refugees, and with Takeshi finally got to experience something exclusively human - love. KID makes no comment on the existence of souls, but if there was some way of quantifying the human soul, the ability to love would definitely be criteria, which she met.
Sora didn't go through the suffering Tsugumi did, but she wasn't any less lonely and isolated than her. She also dies in every route because LeMU always implodes and HIMMEL goes with it. Treating the transferring of her memories through the terabyte disk, to me, dulls the significance of her existence.
The human brain never "turns off", it is always "on", so we're always maintaining the same perception of self. If the brain truly shuts off, like if someone dies, even if said person comes back to life, are they really the same person? An entirely new consciousness could have been born in that moment, with access to the same physical memories as the original, not knowing it's not the original. I think of Utsumi's talk to Satoru as of Day 3 in Remember11 as an analogy: both personalities self-identify as Satoru, but the original Satoru might be dead, and this one might have picked up where the first left off. There's no way for the new personality to know, and the original isn't in any position to voice dissent.
Basically, I'm saying that destruction of LeMMIH = Sora's "awareness" is destroyed. Her memories might have been preserved, but it's no more than implanting false memories into another person for me. I felt Takeshi understood this in Sora's Path, and realized the terabyte disk wasn't really going to save her, and so he died with the woman he loved.
I think the terabyte disk backup is better than nothing, but I felt Sora was a very tragic heroine because she never really escaped LeMU as herself.
@Talon: Don't worry about it. I can tell you've changed. ^^
@Dopple: I also really liked Sara's tale. Maybe because I'm not romantically invested in any characters from the beginning (I feel bad for any players who were hoping to hit it off with Sara). But it really did deepen my sympathy for her and Kid. I'd love to adopt them both. =<
And I agree that Sora's different from a statue, that's precisely what bothered me about the Pygmalion comparison.
When you put Takeshi's decision to deny the copy and stay with the original in a worldly sense... You're right, it is really deep and tragic. It's like asking if you can replace a dead loved one with a clone, or another body implanted with the same memories. Drawing back on Remember11, I think I'm starting to grasp some of the central themes in the Infinity series... Just what is "self"? What makes us who we are? Our memories? And in Sora's case - what makes us "human"?
With those thoughts in mind... I'm about to embark on Coco's path. Wish me luck!
Edit- Hm... So I've come across some differences in this version of events, such as everyone confronting Tsugumi in the security room. I'm surprised Kid's subsequent conversations with You, Sara, and Tsugumi weren't edited so it still seems like only You and Sara talked to Tsugumi. Although Sora's conversation turned out to be slightly different...
Play as Kid on Coco's Path. Do not play as Takeshi.
Ah, spoke too soon. Sorry.
Last edited by Doppleganger; 10-23-2010 at 09:43 PM.
I know, I read your advice to Talon and BBB. I'm playing as Kid right now (see above edit).
I'm starting to wonder if the pool was actually some kind of dimensional portal or something... XP
Question: If both Kid and Sara have infrared vision, how come Sara didn't try to stop You from opening the door to the Generator Room?
Edit- Hm... So I've come across some differences in this version of events
You will. It's the game's way of letting you know, "Surprise! A fifth route is now accessible!" But I pick the word "accessible" for a reason -- you'll still need to make Path 5-pertinent choices in order to dock onto Path 5. Failure to do so will result in you simply re-docking into one of the pre-existing paths. (When you play Fate / Stay Night, you'll discover a similar thing happens with getting onto the Unlimited Blade Works path. A brand-new, never-before-seen option appears when you start the new story and it has two choices. One choice is what the story automatically did for you last time, and the other choice is its opposite. You pick the opposite and -- surprise, surprise -- you wind up on the UBW path. That easy. Ever17's not quite the same. ^^; )
Here's a baby spoiler example intended to help you out. If you want to feel proud of yourself for figuring it out on your own, then don't click. Otherwise, click. It's a pretty small spoiler, but it's admittedly fun to figure it out for one's self.
When Sora asks you how many life forms are currently aboard LeMU, you're given two or three answers to choose from. Picking the other two answers results in the same old speech from Sora. But picking the one answer which is only possible for you to pick as an informed player -- the one answer which you could only have known was right because you knew from previous playthroughs that one of the people standing before you was a holoprojection and not a lifeform which registers on LeMU's sensors -- has the fun effect of:
(a) sending a ripple of surprise and shock through the room, mostly from Sora, and
(b) getting Sora to reveal to the group much earlier on this time, and in the control room rather than in the conference room, that she is a holoprojection and not a human being.
Things like this abound in what I'll refer to as "pre-Path 5." And it'll be up to you to catch them, deal with them accordingly, and enjoy the sometimes hilarious and sometimes exhilarating consequences of your prescience.
EDIT: if you're already to the generator room bit, then it sounds like you're way passed what I mentioned in the spoiler box. So go ahead and click on it and read its full contents.
I'm pretty sure I've made all the right choices so far. I always checked the others just to be sure. Will the normal responses always elicit the standard text? If so, I can just skip them, right?
I don't remember well enough to comment on this. I remember that, on Sara's path, the mystery of their visual prowess began to unfold when Kid thought that he saw a window with moonlight shining through it and Sara corrected him that it was a switch/fuse box. But I don't remember if Sara already knew at that time that she had infrared vision, specifically, or whether that was something which she and Kid figured out together as their story together unfolded in the Cosmic Whale room.
Regardless, Sara would not want Nakkyu-senpai to get burned. If she failed to warn You in time, it may simply be because she was preoccupied with other thoughts; or that Kid beat her to it; or something.
I dunno. I sort of played the game half-ballsy and half-I'll double-check with BBB and Doppel and only go back and redo things if they tell me in their replies, "Dude, you effed up." And that never ended up happening. Just like with the Tsugumi and Sora paths, I docked onto Path 5 on my first try too.
IIRC one of the last pre-Path 5 choices you'll have to make involves Sora's moon analogy when she asks you to close your eyes in the water-filled hallway while you guys are playing hide and seek or Kick the Can or something. Although I don't remember that scene being any different from how it was on Sora's Path proper, iirc Doppel had told me back in the day that that would be one of the final important questions I'd have to answer correctly in order to dock onto Path 5. So I guess I would say to you that if you get passed that scene tonight or tomorrow, then check back in with Doppel and he'll be more than able to let you know whether you've docked or not.
Or, you can verify it for yourself if you press further on and start uncovering a bunch of things which you know you've never seen before.
Like when Kid-- OW!
*Doppel smacks Talon*
But all I said was when Kid-- OW!
You'll know when you get there.
Well, I just came across a completely new choice where I can tell the others about seeing Coco outside the Generator Room or not. I decided to tell them, and now I feel like Kokoro again. XP Yay for acting like a lunatic!
Edit- You's description of the third eye:
"Clairvoyance, telescopic vision, ghost sense, the gift of the prophet, the power of seeing the past or future..."
So does Kid really have the third eye? Hm...
OH SNAP! Kid saw his reflection in the mirror. o.O;
I had a feeling something like this might happen... Another personality transfer? There's probably more to it than that...
That was it!
That scene, I mean. And now the shit has officially hit the fan. Good shit, mind you. And more shit will just keep coming. This is the epic tip of the iceberg.
Enjoy the ride.
The mirror scene was the first of many bricks to be had in Coco's Path. 'twas part of the reason I was flipping out in Remember11 at getting to see Kokoro's face so early, as well as see her (and Satoru's) sprite several times when they talked.
Finished. Ever17.
The ending was gorgeous. A bit unbelievable at times (understatement), but the final CG truly made everything feel worth it. Dopple, I understand now why you recommended this game for its inspirational message - and why you were curious to hear a "lady's impression" of it. On that note, I certainly did not mind being called "oniichan". I think of it as how God is referred to as "Him", but God probably doesn't have a gender. (I'm not religious or comparing myself to God, but that's the closest analogy I can think of at this hour.)
I was sort of spoiled on the fact that Blick Winkel = the player, actually - or rather I just knew that the player is involved in the game somehow. So that didn't really come as a shock. ^^; Still, I went into the game with the dark notion that "summoning" Blick was a bad thing, based on experiences with Remember11 and the demonic connotations of the word. So I was very pleasantly surprised when it turned out our purpose, as Blick Winkel, was indeed to rescue everyone from the abyss.
Mm... I should wrap this up and go to sleep now, if I want to wake up and have time to actually study. ^^; So I'll add more detailed comments later.
At any rate, I still can't shake this crazy feeling of déja vu that's plagued me through the entire game... Somewhere, in a past life or another world, I feel like I've seen this story before. x.X Agh, it's driving me nuts.
I'm less surprised than I should be, since you played another infinity game before this and were "somewhat" aware to KID's approach to visual novels. But for someone like me who only played TYPE-MOON, KEY and the bizarre OMGWTFOTL prior to Ever17 (with fairly traditional approaches) it was very novel. KID was the first (and only?) company to use the visual novel perspective to deceive the player, and create a new dimension of interactivity. More modern novels like Chaos;Head have borrowed the ideas of incorporating hard science concepts into the games, but none have taken advantage of the medium like KID did.
Originally Posted by Doppleganger
I always imagined the visual novel perspective would be perfect for this type of deception, which is why I've been expecting/hoping for an identity shock since I first started playing Remember11. Granted, I did read the summary for that game beforehand, but I was surprised the reveal happened so soon, and the game didn't try to be subtle by disguising voices/sprites. So when both these were absent from the player's perspective during Ever17, I sensed something was up - especially considering the amnesia plot device. Maybe it helps that I've also played an interactive fiction that similarly deceives the reader about the protagonist's identity, and VNs feel a lot like IFs with visuals to me.
A couple questions I've been meaning to ask:
1) What exactly happened during Kick-the-Can? Dopple, you said you had a theory about this, but I haven't been able to find it in the thread. Care to explain?
2) How come the life reading was always "1" at the end? It shouldn't have picked up Coco and Takeshi since they were cryogenically frozen, right? Blick Winkel shouldn't count either since he's just a "perspective". So then who/what is this mysterious entity?
I'd be interested to hear Doppel's theory since, imo, Kick the Can isn't able to be explained. ^^; I mean ...
You have one time period which is in 2017, and you have another time period which is in 2034. The two events don't overlap at all. Blick's presence should not generate a temporal anomaly since Blick him/herself is not a temporally anomalous entity.
Well ... I say Blick's not a temporally anomalous entity, but this isn't true, is it? Because he clearly makes a conscious effort to jump from 2034 at the end of path 5 back to 2017 at the end of Path 2 and gets Takeshi to wake back up and swim to safety inside of LeMU's bottommost level. Hmm. So I guess you could try and explain the Kick the Can phenomenon from a temporal anomaly line of reasoning.
I dunno. It just seems like something which was there to intrigue the player but which was ultimately an artifact from the drafting days of the game's design. It feels like an element which belonged to an explanation for Blick or Leiblich which they wanted to pursue but which they ultimately didn't, yet they forgot to take that aspect of the Kick the Can game out.
(Hey Doppel, I just noticed something. I'm sure this is totally unintended, but check this out: Lie + Blick (Winkel) = Leiblich. Lieblich lies to Blick! Too bad "Lieblich" is "LEE-blick" and not "LIE-blick", being as it's German and all. )
As for the life form readings question ...
Being in cryogenesis shouldn't matter, but in that case it'd ought to be a 2, not a 1. (Struck out for reasons explained two paragraphs below. But keep reading for now.) Pippi (as we discover in Path 5) is a robot, so s/he doesn't count either. I suppose one interpretation you could offer would be that LeMMIH Sora may have adjusted the life form readings count to reflect her own presence, and since she's still stuck on LeMU as it goes down, the game would show you a life form count of 1. But that seems like a forced pet theory which can't really be proven one way or another.
Are you sure the 1 is at the end of every path? I don't remember it showing up period, to be honest. I'm sure it did, but I wonder: are you sure it showed up in Path 5 as well? Maybe it only shows up for all non-Path 5 paths. That would make the most sense.
I just realized, you're saying that the cryo reading shouldn't count, and you're also saying that if it did count then it'd have to count both Coco and Takeshi. But the thing is, Takeshi isn't in LeMU at the end of any of the non-Path 5 paths. Takeshi is at the bottom of the ocean floor. And he stays there until Path 5 when Blick takes action.
So, given this information, I'd have to say that:
(1) the lifeform thing doesn't show up at the end of Path 5, and
(2) it is referring to Coco and Coco alone. Takeshi isn't onboard the station at the time, Pippi's a robot, and Sora's an AI.
Right. I meant to add that if the sensors picked up Coco and Takeshi, there should be two lifeforms.
I believe the single life reading showed up at the end of every path except for Coco's. However, you say Takeshi isn't in in LeMU until path 5 when Blick/Hokuto revives him. In that case, Coco would also be long dead in all the other paths since Takeshi didn't come back to save her. I highly doubt she programmed the pod and climbed in by herself. o.O;
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