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{Archived} Alliance Rules 2.0 Playtesting
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Earth Wands
Thread starter Tantarus
Should Earth casters get wands?
Yes, but only healing/chaos.
Yes, but only generic damage type/chaos.
Yes, other will post comment to explain.
Kasuni
Avaran said:
Sure. Sorry. >.>
Hey, the idea is still relevant in this thread and now it has been mentioned! Longer discussion may just be better elsewhere.
Player: Emily S.
Character: Kasuni
Tantarus said:
Just to be clear, the "wand" (Does not sound a wand at all, so not sure why it was brought up except as a misdirect to derail this topic) proposal is just to add to the playtest and not the game right? It is not like we are a few votes from having it live in the game?
It uses the same scale and mechanics as Wands for scaling (time per day usage) etc. It is something the E Caster would have to have on them and use during the skill (as a wand). It does not have packet throwing or "healing/chaos" damage as a Wand does. It is something unique to E Casters without just being a clone of a wand.
This item would be added in 2.0 as per all the other things. It is not something we are looking to add into 1.3. It needs to be playtested with the other skills and abilities to ensure it would work and is balanced to 2.0. We would not want to add something like this mid stream to 1.3 and then have balancing issues on a system that we are moving away from eventually.
The DM doesn't kill people.... oh wait, Yes, yes we do!
Cory, Myth Games
Saephis
mythic said:
It is something unique to E Casters without just being a clone of a wand.
I'm curious why you're, personally/as an owner, opposed to this?
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Again, flavour. Making something unique, different, but valuable. We have the opportunity to not just make something "just like the other guy", but give E Casters something that we feel works with their spells and archetype. We have also had extensive discussions about this several times, for several years.
The bulk of the Owners (and I do not mean just 1 or 2) are not wanting a "healing stick." As I have previously stated, there are enough Owners that do not want it; that, no matter how many times it is proposed, it will fail. It only takes 3-4 owners to say "No", again, and the proposal fails. Again, as recently as last fall. So we reworked it into an item that does not give just more healing. The item will likely pass, we are just finalizing the wording, and then it gets passed to ARC to put the finishing touches on it (that is the process for those who do not know.) and then it can be added to the next playtest packet.
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Have you paused in this thread, to take account of the numbers involved in the discussion? At current, there's 18 people who want "something" for Earth Casters, rather than sitting back and waiting for someone else to be stabbed (and five who don't feel anything is needed). Has that not caused you to take stock in what your personal views are, when weighed against an international game like Alliance?
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Avaran
Again, flavour. Making something unique, different, but valuable. We have the opportunity to not just make something "just like the other guy", but give E Casters something that we feel works with their spells and archetype.
I like this viewpoint, and support it. I like that you guys are looking into various alternatives. But I would advise that if there ARE no workable alternatives, that the Owners consider the obvious solution, even if it isn't ideal.
Saephis said:
Brad, I feel it would be good to remind you that Cory doesn't represent all of the owners. In the past, a lot of owners didn't respond to proposals because they didn't like them and knew that they would just die due to being ignored or because of a lack of votes. In the past, a lot of owners were simply checked out. In the past, a lot of owners just didn't want to deal with the National boards for one reason or another (too busy, no motivation, etc.). There are a lot of new owners now, some of this has changed, a lot of it hasn't. Some of the owners are pretty set in their ways and won't change their minds no matter what.
I've also heard that part of the reason why these changes aren't being rolled out in stages is because Mike V hates Spirit Forges and Rebuilds and wants to avoid them at almost any cost and would veto the whole lot.
I don't feel it's productive to go at just Cory like this, if that is indeed your intention. Further, those who participate in these forums are a very small minority of the players - though I think a very important minority since we tend to want to improve the game and are generally pretty passionate about doing so. I get that you're frustrated - believe me, I am too. This whole process, this whole rules change, the way we as players get talked down to, is aggravating to say the least. But there are a lot of differing opinions on the matter, and we have to accept that. We also have to accept that this is how the system works. I'm pretty sure we share most of the same opinions, but I don't think pissing people off - intentionally or otherwise - is going to help make our case, either.
As I said above, I like the fact that they aren't just copy/pasting skills and abilities. It should also be noted that there IS currently a proposal up that is TRYING to address this whole issue. Whether it is good or not, we don't know yet; I think we need to wait and see.
I don't know, I just don't want to see "more of the same". If you do, if others do, that's cool. Either way, I would like a good, workable solution to this inequity, whatever it ends up being.
People who demand tolerance but give none in return don't deserve to be tolerated.
Yup. And that is what we are doing. But you have to remember, there is a world of difference from just adding "something" to the 1.3 rules and adding in "something" to the 2.0 rules. The scaling is different. The Spells and effects are different. What we could add to 1.3 may then have to be changed or tweaked for 2.0. I don't know how much time you believe the owners can dedicate to this project, but getting them all going on just the 2.0 has been at times, very challenging.
There are rules even the Owners have to follow. We cannot just throw something into game. There are things players may not be aware of (and I do not know what details I can personally go into as I am not CEO or President of Alliance) that go on behind the scenes. There are many steps we have to take before something "goes live" let alone is allowed into a playtest.
So no matter how much "players want it", there is a very strict set of guidelines we have to follow as Owners and things take an incredibly long amount of time to get done this way. Even if something were proposed today, it would take a month or two of discussion (as there has to be time for everyone to chime in), then a voting period of 2-3 weeks, then passed to ARC to ensure it is balanced, or check for problems (cascading problems that were originally missed) and then pass it back to the Owners who then "rubber stamp it." And even then, Mike V has a Veto of up to 90 days. If he changes his mind in that time, the thing is tossed (see the Magic Items change) and we have to start from scratch.
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I have been approached now by dozens of players at this point, from multiple chapters, who have been told to talk to the owners. They talked to me, this is something they shared they were interested in, and I see value for the game. The "talk to the owners" statement only works if we take what players want seriously. Sometimes, that may mean bringing up a discussion that has already been had. This is why I want to know input on earth wands. If the overall input is "no, don't need this" then I wouldn't feel like it needed to be brought up again. If a large majority feels like it is needed, I would feel compelled to being it up once more on the owner's boards for renewed discussion.
From my understanding, a key element has been missing from prior owner discussions about earth wands, and that is clear player feedback. As owners we make calls on what we think is right for the game, many of us with a lot of experience and knowledge. However, the players are the people who truly make the game happen. They also have experience and knowledge. They know what will make them have fun. I am interested in hearing these opinions, because if we are provided with clear guidance on Player opinion, and find out that previous votes and discussions conflict with what the players want, we should want to re-evaluate. Even if the answer remains "no", knowing the pulse of what players want in the game is vital, and it changes over time.
I don't see the harm in having this discussion to get those opinions and at least making sure we know where the players stand on it.
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No, that was my bad. I should have clarified. No matter if players want it "right now" it will take months to go through a process with the owners. It won't happen for 1.3 as we are hoping to have 2.0 out before we would need to revise 1.3.
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Thanks for the clarify! That makes sense
I was thinking this would be good information to know, as we continue to evaluate for 2.0.
Gilwing
Alliance Logistics
Alliance Owner
So it could take 4 months time. I don't see that as a long wait for getting the same thing that C casters already have and won't change much if 2.0.
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Thorcanine
I like the idea of the Earth Casters getting something in line with Wands. I even like the style of Item that Cory was mentioning that is being voted on. But I feel like to keep in the theme of Earth Casters there should be something that has to do with Necromancy for what is included. I'm not sure if this would be a practical inclusion. Just a thought I had.
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PC: Paragon Aezir Yukimura the Chimera Layer/ Dragonslayer - Lion Sarr Earth Templar
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