https://media.blubrry.com/where_brains_meet_beauty/content.blubrry.com/where_brains_meet_beauty/WBMB.Podcast.28.FatMascara_Final.mp3
What happens when a podcast features another podcast? Things take a turn for the meta this week as host Jodi Katz interviews Jennifer Goldstein (Executive Beauty & Health Editor Marie Claire) and Jessica Matlin (Beauty & Health Director Teen Vogue), hosts of the #1 ranked beauty podcast Fat Mascara. Listen in as they talk day jobs, side hustles and what they're doing when they're not doing either of those things.
Welcome to Where Brains Meet Beauty, hosted by Jodi Katz, founder and creative director of Base Beauty Creative Agency.
Jodi Katz
Tell everybody what happened. We were, like, at least four and a half minutes into this amazing show, and then our dear friend Rob, who is acting engineer, but is really a lawyer, came in and told us that we weren't recording.
Jennifer Goldstein
Which was deadly, because I had such a good joke. I was really proud of it.
Jessica Matlin
You did have a good line.
Jess was giving comedy gold over there.
Well, I don't know me so much.
Try and repeat it. [crosstalk 00:00:33]
Today is a major day. It was a major day four and a half minutes ago, it's still is a major day here. It really is because we have the guest — the host of Fat Mascara, the number one beauty podcast on iTunes. Welcome to Jessica Matlin and Jennifer Goldstein.
Hi, thanks, but I still want to clarify about the number one thing. Am I allowed?
So, sometimes we slip to number two or three, so we are generally the number one in the beauty and fashion category on iTunes.
Yes, like, sometimes like Anna Wintour will have a chat with Audrey Lee and Sally [phoenetic 00:01:08] and we just can't compete with that — like on the Vogue podcast.
[crosstalk 00:01:11] So …
Right, but you're number one in our hearts.
You're actually the only podcast I've ever listened to.
Oh my god.
We just record it and then just-
I record it. A lady on my team takes the file. She does something with it and she puts it live.
And you never hear it again.
I haven't, maybe I should.
You're like an actress who like can't even bear to go their premiere, like, "I can't watch myself on screen."
Well, I didn't … Before I started the podcast, I didn't want to listen to anybody's, so I didn't listen to you either even though everyone told me about you because I didn't want to feel like I'm being influenced by your style.
I was just like have what's in my head.
And our show's usually almost like a therapy session for me. It's like I'm learning about how people move through the world, how they deal with stress, how they celebrate joy, and things like that.
I didn't want other podcasts that might do that to speak into me.
I completely get that.
So then after I started, then I started listening to you guys, but I don't listen to anyone else yet. But it's something I need to do. I mean-
I think to like understand the climate, and understand- I mean, I'm in the business of marketing, right? So, like to understand what the other people in this space are talking about. To understand their style, and maybe ways we can tweak our tech.
But, I have a question. So, sometimes when I talk to other, like whether it's a retailer, like a marketer, or someone, or I'm reading an article and it's an amazing musician or director, sometimes, and I know these people are fewer, they're less common than they are more common. I think some of the best ones are the ones who are completely unaware of the other people in their space. And I know that's not the wisest way to go, but I kind of think they make the most interesting stuff.
Maybe that's a really sweeping statement. "They make the most interesting stuff." But I like the people that who are in a little hole and then they just come out with something.
Yeah, but you know what? I listen to you guys and I think you're almost like a variety show. Right? Because you have your interviews-
Sounds really dignified.
… It's not full-on Carol Burnett but you have your guest, right? You have your guest star, in Carol Burnett terms. Have you ever seen Carol Burnett shows?
When I was younger, my mom liked it.
They are on the TV channel. You can catch them. But anyway, so she has her guests but there's of course the flavor around the guest. It's not [crosstalk 00:03:28] the guest.
So I feel like that's what you're giving us. You're giving me your slice of life.
You give me some focus on a guest and what their story is, and then you give us some more slice of life.
Mm-hmm (affirmative)
So, that's inspiring, that's interesting. So I might not copy your talk style or your content style. But the idea of thinking, "Oh, maybe we'll gravitate at some point to like mashing up an episode into a few segments."
You know? So that I feel like is the value of exploring what else is out there. But you know I am going out [inaudible 00:03:57].
Yeah. That's cool.
Okay so I think we need to back up because we didn't record some of this good stuff. But we know that Jessica will be called Jess or Jessica, she'll answer anything. Jen is-
-is gonna be Jen.
Jen. Jennifer is Jen. And last name edit.
Yes. I got sent mail. It's actually Goldstein, but I got sent- we got sent mail at the studio and it came to Jen and when they delivered it actually they pronounced it Jen Edit because I'm French now, apparently. But yeah the Instagram's getting big so I guess they think my last name's edit.
So it's Jen_Edit-
On Instagram. Okay so this is a huge, huge get for Where Brains meet Beauty. Not only are you awesome, but you … this is your first time being interviewed on a podcast.
This is your first time being guests on a podcast.
Which you know from four and a half minutes ago when we told you, yeah.
So, how does it feel to be on the other side?
Kind of wild.
Yeah, I'm a little bit [crosstalk 00:04:56]
Yeah, I don't want to disappoint you.
Really? Well, I feel so nervous because I am interviewing people who for a living …
-Are interviewers.
Interviewing, right.
So I am not … I am not a reporter. Right? I am not an editor. I am a marketer, creative director, so editing is no- I mean interviewing is not my day job. And I'm always talking to people who are not interviewers, I'm always talking to executives. So the fact that you guys have your career doing this, it makes me feel, like, intimidated.
Well we can have like a market-off later.
Yeah, if I had to put makeup on like Pat McGrath I'd definitely be intimidated. Not at all putting us at the level of Pat McGrath as far as podcasting goes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly.
Right. And you've been doing this on a podcast for a year and some months.[crosstalk 00:05:47] Number one, so it's big. This is major.
Yeah, I haven't really reflected on it like that. But yeah, it's been cool.
But You guys took something from nothing and made it what it is. That was only a short amount of time ago, right?
Yeah. We started … we planned it for a little while, and then, yeah, you know, we didn't just like-
February 2016 it launched.
Yeah, that's when it launched but we worked on it for a little bit before.
So why do you think you haven't been the guests of another podcast yet?
I think the space is pretty small. So there isn't a lot of … the community I think is just like finding out about each other, like there was just an article-
For beauty podcasting.
For beauty, sorry. For beauty and certainly not podcasts. So like for beauty and fashion, and beauty and fashion are still kind of like, segregated a little bit. But for beauty there's one in Canada, there's one in the U.K. It's not so easy to just like pop on each other's podcasts. I personally don't like to do phone podcasts, 'cause-
I like to see people's expressions and I end up talking over them weirdly and the rhythm gets off.
Do you find that, 'cause you do yours over the phone?
It's really hard because you can't see me going like, "Move it along." Right? 'Cause like, I wanna keep the podcasts around 30 minutes 'cause, like, who has time? Right? And the executives who would be listening to it, right? Like, I want them to listen [crosstalk 00:07:05]
Right, right.
So I'm trying to keep it to a time.
I'm also trying to get really really deep into kind of their soul and their psyche, and not surface. So it's hard to do that when I can't look into their eyes.
Well look into our eyes, let's get in our souls and psyches. We only have 30 minutes. Go!
So, it's challenging, but the joy of scheduling is much better when I'm [crosstalk 00:07:28] over the phone. Especially when people are in other states, and many of the people we talk to are not in New York.
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Right, right, right.
So like, we're interviewing someone in, I don't know, in Oregon or something like … and we've already had to re-schedule and re-schedule and re-schedule. So , when would that ever happen if we were doing it face to face.
It's tough. Yeah.
It would never happen. So, I think we'll do a mix. So this is our first Hi-fi [phoenetic 00:07:46] ever episode, 'cause everything's been over the pone.
Oh, wow this is cool! Alright.
Yeah, it's a lot of firsts. Yeah.
Don't screw it up, Jess.
Okay, so let's talk a little bit about what it's like to be on that side of the table. Because you did ask for questions in advance and-
I know, I'm a little embarrassed about that.
Well, why are you embarrassed about it?
Because its like I'm trying to control it. I'm not trying to control it I think its like I'm-
You're pulling a guest no-no! [crosstalk 00:08:11]
Oh my God, Jen forgot, yeah-
Which happens to us with our guests and we get annoyed! This is so meta.
Yeah. I can't believe … You're using that word a lot lately and I don't know if you're using it properly.
Wait, I'm pausing you. I just keep trying out the word meta 'cause I don't know what it means so I just like keep trying to use it and hoping at some point I'll figure out what it actually means.
That wasn't the correct word.
Media research [crosstalk 00:08:30].
Like, I kind of get the concept.
It's like, this is the perfect … meta is like somebody watching a video of themselves watching a video of themselves watching a vid- it's like when-
A podcaster interviewing a fellow podcaster talking about podcasting isn't meta?
It's like when someone was wearing like that Macaulay Culkin t-shirt where he's got a … he's … he's was watching … yeah, but like, there was-
Home Alone.
It was Macaulay Culkin wearing a t-shirt of Macaulay Culkin.
Okay. So it's like I'm photographed … no wait. I'm photographed with a painting behind, next to me in a mirror and you see it replicated in that mirror?
Yeah, it's like a double layer, but like one references the other. I think even the Truman Show may be a little bit meta.
Oh. Uh-huh (affirmative).
Like, it's like two worlds kind of meeting and one is like a reflection of the other. But I know that's not what we're here to talk about today.
So, um let's talk about what it feels like, 'cause we know this is the first time you've been on a podcast, and I do have people ask me for questions. Some people- it's like half and half.
I asked for questions just because I wanted to know like, did you want to know, like did you wanna know more about our careers at Teen Vogue and Marie Clare or was it more about the podcast or … ? I think I kind of want to go in prepared, so that I'm giving people- here … Here's what I think the root is. Now I feel like I'm like in a therapy session. I think that I really have an expectation when we have a guest coming on, I kind of know in the back of my mind the stuff that I wanna get into with that guest. I know like, they may have like a makeup line, but I know that they were like, you know, a total, like, weirdo … Well that's- don't – can you take that out? 'Cause that sounds like mean. Okay, well, you do what you want. That they were, that they were, you know, somebody who the world doesn't think they were, they're not known for X or Y and that's the area I want to … I don't- I never want them on because I love their lipstick. It's like, and I don't know what Jen's perspective is, but like, there's something else. It's not because, like, "Oh my God, they're amazing!" It's like there's something else. So-
Right. You don't want to be a commercial for [crosstalk 00:10:34].
Right. That's the last- that's like the- that's not why I want them on at all. So, I want to give them a framework that won't surprise them where they're on the show and they're like, "Wait, you didn't say that we were gonna talk about that at all." But I also want to give them just like a little map so they don't feel duped. Do you see what I mean? I want to-
But you're not giving them the questions ahead of time?
No, but I give them a little, like … Just kind of a little … so they feel that they never come into the studio, because I do want to go places with them. I never want them to feel like, "Woah, this is not what my publicist, where they sent me at all." But I also want to kind of like give them a hit that it's gonna be a different kind of interview.
Right. And have you ever had anyone be on the show and you ask them a question and they're like, "I can't answer that."?
Yeah. It's usually lawyers get involved- like it's usually like a legal thing.
And we'll edit it out.
But rarely, very rarely. I mean we're talking to business people like you are so sometimes they have signs, you know, non-disclosures or [crosstalk 00:11:33].
Yeah, things like that.
Or someone will say, like, "I don't really wanna talk about that." And it's like, "OK."
But it's worth trying, always.
And do you guys pre-interview your guests.
No. That's not true actually though, because we want to have at least me them.
Oh! Oh, I thought you meant like a pre-interview like a David Letterman: Behind the …
I think she did, but in a way we do because … because of our day jobs as beauty editors we meet so many personalities and we've never had someone on cold that we actually haven't met or talked to.
Right, but it's not a purposeful like, "OK, here's how it's gonna go and then we're gonna go here".
[crosstalk 00:12:02] we've been pitched guests who I think seem interesting, but if I haven't met them in person, I don't know. I mean, we meet so many people in the beauty industry and a lot of them are fascinating, but, you know, sometimes there's a dud here and there.
We did one- we had a- we met with a couple- there were a couple of people who we never met before who that were on the show.
Dascha Polanco.
Right, so. That was good but there were a couple of folks where the chemistry necessarily wasn't there and it didn't really translate.
Oh I know and I had met Dascha beforehand too.
Okay, so, yeah. But the majority of people who we've had on the show, it's been amazing 'cause like, we had the connection, we saw that there was something else there besides the fact that they make amazing hair cream or something.
And I guess something in your gut told you they can go beyond the hair cream and they can go inside deeper.
Yeah. We … I always want to meet the person I interview first. One is can they be more persona? Are they willing to go there? And I don't always know that just by reading other interviews of theirs or just knowing people that know them. So I do- I don't call it a pre-interview. I just say let's meet for coffee, or let's just have a chat. But it helps me do what you were talking about, which is, "Oh, this person's talking about a struggle, so let's focus on that struggle during our 30 minutes because that's all we have." And I don't want to walk into a room not having that conversation, not knowing we could even end up in that space.
I had one person who I'd known through work. And we started talking about what it's like for her to be a more mature older woman who's single, never had kids, never got married. What that's like to be in this industry and in work. And I don't know how we would have ever have gotten there, right? If we didn't have that pre- conversation. Like, I never would've said, and been so audacious to be like, "Tell me what ti's like to be almost 60 and never been married."
Exactly. So sometimes the pre-questions are like laughing at them a little bit, but it's just to kind of like … I'll never give them the whole thing. Because I don't like that, that's not what Fat Mascara is about, but sometimes it's just good to let them know like, "Hey this is not gonna be you're 3 minutes for some like cutie-pie website video." You know? It's different.
OK. So let's go back in time, all the way back to 2016. Or when your planning started in 2015. How did this idea of a podcast come about?
I'll let Jess answer this one since it was her idea.
Oh, cool.
But Jen is very integral to it.
I was obsessed with podcasts, and I was really into about like 2 or 3 and I was listening to them, and it was WTF with Marc Maron, which is … it's really … the format is he talks in the beginning, and then he does a long interview. The other one is Bret Easton Ellis, and he talks for a lot at the beginning, and then he does an interview. So-
And he talks to himself? I mean, to his audience?
He talks to the- yeah. He'll talk for like 20, sometimes like 30 minutes to the audience, and it's just, like … It's like a little bit of like a monologue, it'll be about like film or what's going on in the world, or politics and then it could be another hour of an interview with a filmmaker. It's almost always a filmmaker or a musician. And, I was thinking, like, "I would like to do this. But I would like to do it with beauty." And then I look online, and I saw there were only a couple of beauty podcasts, but none of them had somebody with authority behind it, or, like, major authority.
So, I have a friend who started a podcast about books. I talked to her about it and she was like, "that's an amazing idea." So I came up with a plan, I pitched the plan, which was like the format we have now, to the production company, and she said, our producer said, like, "Great. I love this idea. Definitely a white space here. But, you need a partner." And I was like, "Oh, the world does not want to hear me bang on about beauty", you know.
So your producer said, "This is an interesting format but there needs to be more than one of you?"
You know? And I was like, "OK. Totally got it." And then I was thinking, like, "Who could it be?"
From my end, when we … she took me out to drinks because we just had become friendly, we met in- on a press trip to Ghana.
Right, of course.
It was our first night, like, that we were-[crosstalk 00:16:23]
It was our first, like, one-on-one, like not in a work s-
-it was a friend date, and she's telling me about this podcast, so I immediately started being like, "OK, who could it be your partner?" Like, I started naming all the beauty editors-
We named like a bunch of people, yeah.
-people in the beauty industry. And she's just looking at me- do you see this face she does with these like doe eyes? And she was pursing her lips and just looking at me funny and I was like, "What? What?" [crosstalk 00:16:43]
But I didn't think you could do it. I didn't even know if I would be able to do it, because-
Well, you thought of me.
Of course I did.
When she was saying it, like going through a list of names were you thinking you?
Yes, but I also thought, like I didn't know if I could do it, because we both worked at Hearst, and I, you know, I was thinking like maybe I'm gonna have to like, leave my job, maybe my boss is gonna be so angry that I've even like … I didn't know what-
She was at Cosmopolitan at the time and I was still at Marie Clare, yeah.
Yes. And I didn't know if it would like- and it's interesting because people have lots of side hustles now. And this is definitely like, this is not ages ago, this is two years ago but I was scared that like, "Was this something I should've brought to my boss first?" Like, huge question I still don't know how I should have handled it, and I was just lucky that my boss was really cool about it. She could've easily not been, but I was like "How do I even deal with this? Maybe I should've- Maybe I'm not even allowed to like talk to someone about this. Maybe you have to talk to your company before you talk to an outside person." It was really freaky, so I was like, "I'm not gonna even ask Jen if I don't even know if I might get fired for this kind of thing." But Jen was amazing and she was like, "Well I can-
We put our heads together.
Kind of like, strategized.
Yeah. But you took a risk, too. I mean, I don't know. I think you weren't like the troublemaker, so to speak, but I thought I was causing … I didn't know what was gonna happen. But we were just so lucky and both of our bosses were incredible, they were really supportive of side things. And they were lie, "Yeah, go ahead."
So there was no like," Hmm let us think about it. Hmm let us talk to legal. Hmm let us talk to PR."?
No, at least from my boss was incredible. She was like, "It's all about having a side thing". She was like, "You go, girl! The more you can add to your resume, your skillset. Go for it."
And Joanna Coles, you know, she's the big boss there and she's excited to see people diversify themselves and it was great.
You know it's incredible when I think about where your industry is now. And I just look at it from a distance. I'm not a publicist, so I'm not with you and your peers all the time and the fact that you had the foresight, maybe not knowing that you needed it, to diversify your talents and build, like you said a side hustle when there's so many changes in your industry. And, you know, very big authorities are getting dumped left and right. It's really beautiful.
Well … I mean, this sounds a little like self-congratulating and I don't mean it to sound that way, but I … it was a different. It wasn't that different, like things were definitely shrinking in 2015, but I think I felt slightly frustrated that I … I feel like I'm burying the lead a little bit, like one of the things that excited me about Bret Easton Elis and Marc Maron is that they could just talk … and I will, like, shut up in a second because I feel like I've been talking too much … they could just talk for a half an hour about what they were excited about in their areas of expertise. And I was like, "I love doing this and I don't get to do this at work." And I wanted a thing to do that. And I was like, "I can't do this at Cosmo" even though I loved my job.
And when do you mean by can't do this, our pages are only so big, right?
Exactly, yes, thank you, yes.
There's so many beauty stories to tell that you just can't get to them- you don't have space or time. So regardless of what's happening in the magazine industry, we still wanted a place to expand the beauty story and tell the stories behind the scenes that we get to hear in like desk sides, or talk about in the taxi cab in the way home from [crosstalk 00:20:06].
Yeah, that's also why Jen's a great partner. I like talking to her about beauty things. I love sharing a cab back with her because she always made me laugh.
[crosstalk 00:20:15] product.
Yeah, like that kind of inside stuff. And I was like, "OK, well I'm not gonna be an Instagram star. Like, I'm not young enough, I'm not, we don't have like a great-
Listen, we're trying [crosstalk 00:20:24].
I'm not super fashion, that's not me.
I go to these influencer events and I'm like, we stick out like a sore thumb.
No, and that's fine.
Is that a saying? That's not even a saying.
Yeah, stick out like a sore thumb. But like, I don't- but that's fine. Like I don't- that's not me.
That's not who we are.
And I … you know, there's like 10 spots in the beauty industry now. And I … am I going to-
In the magazine industry.
IN the magazine.
As beauty editors.
Yeah. And that isn't- that's not sustainable. And I was like, "OK, if I can have a platform where I can talk about all the stuff I love and it's relatively low-cost, just see what happens". Low investment.
It's really genius. You know, in the past, I guess like a year ago? I think a lot of shit hit the fan.
Maybe like maybe it's like 9 moths ago or something like that.
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
And there were some friends of our publicists calling her saying like, "You know I lost my job."
Beauty editors?
So much so that we're like, "Let's make a workshop." [inaudible 00:21:21] beauty to help these people who … you speak your own language, right? You have your language around editorial, which is different than the language around advertising, but you're doing the same job, right? You know, it's like you're creating, you're developing concepts, you're art directing photo shoots, you have a strong vision, you're writing copy. It's all the same task but you have different names for them. So we're like, there's so many people, let's just get them all in a room and tell them, "This is what you call it, but when you go on a job interview, 'cause you can get this job at let's say a McCann, you can have a creative job at McCann for I don't know, a L'Oreal brand. But you need to call it this." Right, like, just to help steer-
Wow! That's awesome.
So, it was just … there's so much of it. That I felt like, oh my God, if my industry disappeared all of a sudden, I would want somebody to be helping me.
That's awesome that you did that.
We actually never did it.
Oh, oh, oh. I thought-
[crosstalk 00:22:09] person, because everyone thankfully did get other jobs. But it was really scary for like 2 months.
Yeah, a lot of our friends who were former beauty editors have gone into doing content for brands directly.
Yep. Yeah.
And I know people who have done that and then come back to the media industry. I mean we're all, like, story tellers and we all love beauty, so it's very [crosstalk 00:22:27].
Exactly. But it's so scary to think that the things you trained for like 15 years, 20 years are all of a sudden, like, slipping through your fingers.
No, I think it's exciting! I think it's-
Oh, God, Jen!
I don't know. If you have like a family to feed and you have to pay your rent …
Absolutely, but it … there's other opportunities. Not like the whole amount of work goes down, it's just it's shifted to different places, you just gotta go find it, you know?
I don't know. I still think it sucks.
I think it's closing down the factory.
The factory closes in town, I mean, to simplify it. And now I have to take everything I've learned in terms of doing whatever I did in the factory and find another place to go and it might not be a factory. It might be … I don't know, a widget store, whatever.
Right, but what if the factory made really cool stuff and like quality items and now the items that they're selling are really crappy items, like, you know? Like …
Yeah, this analogy's … loaded.
I … yeah, okay … No, I just feel like I love long-form, beautiful, print stories-
Ah, you'll miss glossy pages, and-
You know? And now the demand is not for those stories because they don't … they're too expensive, or they're … maybe crappy was too loaded. But like, it's about clicks, it's about this, it's about … and there's room for all those things, but I really do enjoy a really well-reported, longer story. And I think that's why I was so excited to do Fat Mascara, 'cause I wanna have a longer conversation like we're having now, like … is that too unfashionable now?
No, I think it's awesome. Do you guys transcribe your episodes?
Oh. Well then you may want to.
Well, you know, we do this thing called Raise a Wand where we pick a product that we love every week. And our lovely intern Chloe [phoenetic 00:24:14] uses those for Instagram posts. When I was doing those Instagram posts, I would edit down what we had said about the product-
-to make it really snappy and cute. You know I'm a magazine editor. She just takes it, like, straight from how we talk and puts it on Instagram. Good lord would no one wanna read us transcribed because a conversation audibly is very different!
We need to edit those.
Yeah, so I ended up going in and editing them down a little bit. And you know as a writer, it aint the same. You want to craft a flow of an article and I want to be witty and think about it. Like, just transcribing our stories is just not the same as a beautifully written piece.
Beauty or not beauty 'cause we both do features as well, so.
Do you post the episodes on your website as well?
Yeah. [crosstalk 00:24:57]
If you transcribe them and post them there, even if they're hidden, it's good for your SCO [phoenetic 00:25:01].
Yeah, well, and we have our blog that, like-
I learned that- I just learned that!
I was like, "Oh my God!" Can you do a course for us?
OK, so let's talk about Life-Work Balance. This is what we talk a lot about on our episodes, because this is something I struggle with. Because I started my business 10 years ago because I wanted to have control over my time. And I say that with a laugh- I mean I still have control over my time, but sometimes I don't have enough of it or whatever. But you have your day jobs which are very, very demanding, right? You know, this is not an easy job that you have. I'm not suggesting it's not fun, but it's not easy, it's demanding. And then you have this, right? Which is really separate, right?
It's not like it's mashed up with your [crosstalk 00:25:43].
It's just for the story. And, you know, with all the like the Real Housewives to watch, and all the Below Deck, and now Below Deck Mediterranean.
Do you [crosstalk 00:25:52]. I couldn't tell!
Mediterranean takes up a lot of my time.
And you're not on the Southern Charm tap, are you?
I watch it and I think of Kate all the time, 'cause that's where she's from.
Yes, yes.
But I'm really a Below Deck, just [inaudible 00:26:06]. But anyway, how do you do this? Really, with your time, how do you schedule it? How do you organize it so that you can feel fulfilled and feel joyful?
Well, here's a little funny thing. I don't know if you heard the Sean Paul music going off just then, I'm like the queen- this is just like a little hack. I'm the queen of setting alarms throughout the day. Instead of a t- I have a to-do list, obviously, but then if the to-do list isn't working and I'm not getting stuff done I'll set alarms for, 'In an hour and a half I have to do this or whatever'. The people I work with hate it because my phone keeps going off with like dancehall or like EDM music in the middle of the day. Just to remind me, like, 'Oh, you were supposed to switch to this task now.'
And I know that sounds super like, "It's a tip that works!" But like, it's one of the things I do-
Just hit snooze! I would just keep-
That's what happens! That's what I just did. And sometimes it will be the same … just like on your to-do list, you know, you just keep moving that item to the next day's to-do list, and the next day's um-
So wait, you're saying you go into your calendar and you-
Not the calendar, the alarm.
Like reminders?
The one you wake up to, yeah.
Yeah, but how do you know- if just a song goes off, how do you know what that means? Could mean everything.
Because I have different songs for like alarms, and I [crosstalk 00:27:11].
But you have to know that in your head, like Sean Paul is-
Yeah, Sean Paul is get work, get busy. I think that's one of the songs, actually, 'Get busy'.
This is a very fascinating system, OK.
It doesn't work too well. Let me tell you.
It's too weird.
Still, sometimes I'm up late at night doing things. But honestly, some things have fallen by the wayside since we've- this summer's been really big for us, we've gotten lots of opportunities through Fat Mascara. I haven't watched TV in … 2 months.
Other than Game of Thrones, and House of Cards. Like, I don't have time anymore.
Wait, so there's no Bravo? Wait what?
She, yeah … this … there's no Bravo happening here. We actually just ran into a colleague of ours on the corner who met Dorinda last night, got hugged by Dorinda. There was all this amazing Bravo gossip, there was some Jason Hoppy talk, it was incredible. And poor Jen was just like, glazed look. I'm like-
I nodded along.
You nodded, you were very sweet.
It's actually … it's not a good thing. Because we work in pop culture, beauty and entertainment are so intertwined, I should know this stuff.
No, Jason Hoppy has nothing to do with like the latest looks.
I don't know who Jason Hoppy is.
Bethenny's ex-husband! That's … yes!
Oh! I don't like to think about him, so I don't know his name.
'Cause he's a dark figure on the show. That was like deep Bravo. That's was like next-level …
This is like another podcast you guys can start.
Yeah, they're already on.
There is one. Watch what Crappens. So good.
Wait, what is it called?
Watch what Crappens. You gotta listen to that one! It's so good. It's the best one. It's the best one. Well, it's like one of the best.
Okay, so let's talk seriously. You have personal lives?
I assume?
I have a personal life, but it's smooshed into one hour at the end of the day.
And your cat takes up another [crosstalk 00:28:49].
And what is that hour? Like 11 pm to midnight? Like, when is that hour?
So I come home from work and then very often there's like pod things happening or like a work thing or catching up on work. There's a lot of like, nudgey stuff. And then I have dinner with my fiance.
Your fiance?
My fiance. I just like saying it. It sounds, so, like, "With my fiance-
Then she sends me- texts me a picture of her cat.
No. I only did that recently and you didn't respond.
I don't know what to do with that.
I'm like, "Yes, there's a small mammal. Thank you."
She's beautiful. And then we just kind of like hang out. But then I feel like I very often feel like I'm multi-tasking with work and enjoyment a lot. But I do try to have an hour or so where I don't look at work or anything. But in the morning, from the time tI wake up to the time I leave, I'm not doing work stuff. I'm not someone that wakes up and do stuff like that-
Do you know what I just realized? This might be part of the reason it works. It's great to have a partner doing this, 'cause we can split up the tasks for this job. I tend to get a lot of stuff done right when I wake up, and then I'll like, be firing off emails and texts to [crosstalk 00:29:53].
No way, José!
She picks up at night, but it balances well. And because we're always signing emails from the both of us, if one of us forgot to reply to someone about something the other one picks up, and now that I'm thinking about it, this would've been impossible to do on my own, not that it was my idea. But like, it helps to have a partner, is what I'm saying.
Yeah. In the morning I really play with my cat though, for like an hour.
A business partner, not like a personal partner. Obviously, you wanna have support at home, but … Yeah, keep talking about Jeanetta [phoenetic 00:30:17]. This cat-
Is Jeanetta the cat?
Yeah, no I have like an hour of chill time.
[crosstalk 00:30:21]. No cat for Jen?
Are we allowed to curse? Sorry I'll keep it PG. Heck no I don't have a cat! I have … a life. Just kidding! That's horrible! I love her cat, she's actually a dear.
That's not nice. Not nice. Not nice.
Okay, so, um-
You know, a lot of your job is like, these are kind of like, social things, even- maybe they're like, fake social 'cause they're work social. So you have to like, go out a lot.
There's a lot of events, and …
Right? That's what I mean, like-
[crosstalk 00:30:46], you have to have drinks with people. This to me is kind of my worst nightmare. All I really want to do at the end of the day is put my PJs on and watch Bravo. And, I like, this is me.
I think you've found your soulmate.
No, that's what- I want to get to where you are, because that's me at heart. Like, I want to leave work at like 5:30 and be home. Like, my friend, she's a teacher, and like I called her the other day. And not that she doesn't work her butt off, but she is at her- in her classroom at like 7:30 and I called her, or I texted her, like "Are you home?" And it was like 4:00. And she's like, "Yeah." And she's like making dinner. You know what I mean? Like, I love that. She's in her jammies at like, 7:00. You know? Like, beautiful. I would love to get to that spot. It's not gonna happen for a long time. I know that's not your lifestyle.
Well, I guess I made a choice. I made a choice, I don't know, 10 years ago. Or maybe a little bit more to be on my own to allow me to be in my PJs. I mean, sometimes I'm in my PJs working.
Yeah, of course.
I work, actually, quite a bit in slippers. I work- we have a virtual business. I mean, We have an office in the city, but we offer it virtually, so many of us are in our slippers all day long.
But I knew that I'm not gonna be a billionaire. And I didn't want to be Donny Deutsch, like that was not a goal of mine.
Was it ever?
No, never.
And then-
I don't want to be in front of the camera. I want to be home in my PJs. He wants to be out at night, right? I don't know him, I'm just drawing parallels. So I made the choice that I know I'm not gonna be a bazillionaire, but this is OK. Like, this is what I want. Which is to be able to like, in the summer, go in my garden and pull a zucchini, I'm not joking, off the vine.
That's incredible.
It is! And like the simple things are so important to me. Where, like, in my 20s I was so about, like, accumulation of stuff. Like, being out, meeting all these pe- I was so obsessed with being out that I had a job. I had a nightlife website. Like, I was like the writer of a night- I'm not joking.
This is during like 1999, before Y2K, I was the writer and editor of a nightlife website. My job was to go out at night, hang out with the promoters, or whatever they're called. And then write about it the next day.
Is it still in existence?
No, we never made a dollar. But I went to Miami to do this, I went to L.A. to do this, it was like, you know [crosstalk 00:33:03].
But anyway, in my 30s I made a choice. Right? So, but anyway …
I don't even know where we had started there, but let's go a little bit farther and deeper into beauty becomes sometimes I feel like there's so much in my head about this business that I kinda want to barf it. We named it something, I called it. What did I call it? I think beauty barfing? Nope, that's not it. Beauty … binging? Nope, that's not it. I don't remember what I called it, I'll have to find it in my notes. But, oh! Beauty burnout. Like I feel like I can't take it, like I need a break. Do you guys ever feel that way? Jen?
I don't know why you're not answering because we literally had this discussion this week about that. Because I think we do it 24/7 and certain times there's so much product in my house, and there's beauty everywhere and do I need another freakin' lipstick? And are you trying to sell me a cream and I get crazy, and then I see a nice young face get really excited about a beauty product, or I meet a really cool creator that I haven't met before and it like re-ups my energy in the industry, but it goes in waves for me. I mean … it happens to every beauty editor, you get to that point where you stop bringing product home, and … I watch the more junior editors like, hoard stuff. And … it takes a lot to make it into my bathroom these days. Because there are so many products. So, beauty burnout, for sure, I do, but I think that happens to anybody in any industry.
Right, but for us it's like … if we worked in banking and we had banking burnout what would we do? We'd go to the spa, we'd open a magazine, right? To get away from things. What are we doing to get away from beauty, it's really hard, right? To actually get away from it because we're so in it.
Yeah, I don't know. When I go climb a mountain in the middle of nowhere with a bunch of dudes, there's no beauty.
So that's what you're doing? That's what-
I mean, I don't get to do it as much as I want, but yeah I step away from the beauty industry in my home life, I think. I tend to be a little bit more outdoorsy.
So, like, weekends are those dedicated to outdoorsy things?
Yeah, this past weekend I was like jumpin' off waterfalls and I didn't have makeup on the entire weekend. That fixed my burnout, what about you, Jess?
I don't think like … I'm not like a product junkie, you know? I like the industry, I think it's not … I do get what you're saying. I think its more like the beauty, fashion, kind of like ultra- New Yorky kind of like industry thing that I get more burnt out on than, like, "If I see another product I'm gonna freak out!" You know, like?
Right, it's not about product it's about the noise. It's about the news-
Sorry, yeah.
-to borrow something, like the fake news around beauty, like what's important right now.
I see that happening to a lot of the digital girls, too. 'Cause their jobs are so important about getting clicks that they have to manifest trends. And trends are inherently, as an editor, listen, we're not following … we make them. If we say it's a trend at Marie Clare, like, then it's a trend. Which is funny because we're not- we're sort of like, behind the trend. Whereas the digital girls will be like, going through Instagram and just looking for something kooky to give it a name. Like Bambi pose, or Unicorn highlighter, or … And then make noise around it. And I've seen those women who write that kind of stuff burn out more quickly than I think we do because-
-the pace of content creation is just unsustainable.
I think that's sort of what I was alluding to before when I was saying the junkie stuff versus the quality stuff. I don't think I could ever do that kind of content. And even calling it content, is kind, makes me be like, "blah"
Well I don't make content. I write stories.
Right, I don't want to make content. And I know technically speaking, yes, I'm making content. But to be a part of like the content factory is something that, if I had to … obviously I have to engage with it, but I think if I had to engage with it super closely day to day to day to day and produce it, and it could I think wear on you a little bit. But some people really thrive on it, it's just something that isn't for me.
But you don't feel the burnout? Like feeling like barfing stuff? I believe your fiance [crosstalk 00:37:25].
Yeah, it's so funny, sometimes I … and I am really clearly enthused about beauty because I'm gonna tell you about this example so I can't act like I'm like super like, "Eh, it doesn't matter tome." I come home sometimes and I'll be like, "Oh my God, I do love this cream!" I do like skincare a lot, so I'll come home and I'll be like, "No seriously Jeff, like this is actually amazing and I think you should really look into it and I think you should try." And, he'll be reading a book, and you know, he's really good at his job, he's amazing, he's the scientific director for Kiehl's, I think he's a genius.
The man and his creams.
Yeah, he's a chemical engineer, he's a PhD. And I'll show him and I'll be like, "Just let me put it on your hand." And I'll put it on his hand and he'll be like, "Can we just do this tomorrow? I'm reading." 'Cause eh doesn't want to … or he'll look at it really quickly and he'll tell me very quickly, but he doesn't want to engage when he comes home from work.
He can compartmentalize?
Oh he is the king of compartmentalization. For me it's a little bit more all the time. I do love it, but if I were doing like, you know, Bambi pose, Bambi eyes all day long, it might get a little much.
But if someone young wants to get into your business, I mean they have no choice but to do that, right? Like, what other avenues are there?
When you say business do you mean writing about beauty or just-
Yeah, sorry going back to your day job. Yeah, writing about beauty.
Yeah, well. I think there's stories everywhere. I don't think that there's- the only place to write is for these big websites that just want clicks. Like, how do you think, maybe, Into the Gloss started? It didn't start because she was working for a website and wa- you know, it started from a place of I want to tell stories, the same way our podcast started. I mean, a lot of girls aren't going to have that level of quality, so it's gonna take them forever to get to that place, but if you're than enthusiastic, and I say this to young women all the time that want to get into the beauty business. Start your own blog. And I know that sounds so Old School, 1.0 , pre-2010. But if you're good, it will find an audience. And if you're not, you'll learn really quickly maybe you should be doing something else.
No offense to anyone who wants to be a writer of whatever, I've had a lot of younger editors or writers that have worked for me and it's a talent and some people don't have it. And I've seen girls, or women, sorry, who then go on to do something else and are so much happier. 'Cause nobody wants to do what they're not good at.
And there are so many jobs in the beauty industry. So I started out in marketing, I was working for Sephora, and I just wanted to be beauty because I thought it was fascinating. The writing came as like a fluke, like, "Oh, maybe I can write." But there's so many jobs in this industry besides writing about beauty if you're enthusiastic.
And I think any job … I'm trying to figure out the right way to say this … You might burn out on anything, so I don't know if it's just beauty. Also, some people are finding more meaning in, especially now in the beauty industry. And I think about … it depends who you write for, what you do, but we actually were just talking about this on Fat Mascara, some people … there's an extra layer of meaning to, and almost like political stuff to beauty right now. The people who write for Teen Vogue, certainly, not every article's like this, but, not every article's like glitter nail polish. At Allure and Teen Vogue, the content is much more elevated, or like the point of view is much more, just purposeful. So it depends really where you're writing for. And then people move jobs, they do different things. You can shake it up.
Right, so do you see any other hustles in your future? Can you fit another hustle if there was like another hustle if there was another thing in the world? Could you keep your day job, continue to run this amazing podcast, is there room in your lives for one more hustle?
I also do freelance writing on the side, and consulting in the beauty industry.
And Jess does sometimes too, right? So there's a lot of hustles, like, I don't know. I'm not starting a [crosstalk 00:41:22] shop or [inaudible 00:41:24] anytime soon.
My dance card is really full right now, and I'm getting married soon.
Oh! The wedding is the side hustle.
[crosstalk 00:41:32] fiance?
Yes. To my fiance, so I'm not-
And I'm commandeering the whole thing so that's my side hustle too. I'm playing the bitch card! Like, if any of the family … like I'm there, if any of the family gets out of line- Oh my- I'm not telling the story that I really told about how I would keep everybody in line at your wedding.
Oh don't. Please don't.
I won't, that's inappropriate. But I'm here to be her foil, like, right? Count on me. So, that's our side hustle-
Like, good cop, bad cop kinda thing?
Yeah, I'm bad cop always. I'm not always bad cop in our situation.
Oh my God! Little bit bad cop, yeah.
Yeah, I'm bad cop.
And you're wearing white and you're wearing black.
Yeah, I'm the darkness.
I'm wearing a rainbow.
Welcome to the darkness.
You are wearing rainbow!
Rainbow, yeah.
She's a redhead, like she's light and sunshine and laughter.
And that's the balance of our partnership, too. I'm much more analytical and compartmentalized. Less emotional, to my detriment sometimes. And you're more of like an artist and a feeler so we balance each other really well.
I would say.
I feel like you should marry me!
Oh! I have my own scientist to marry.
So one last question, I want to get a little bit deeper, let's-
I love all these layers! It's like the center of the earth! We're going one layer deeper!
Let's ignore beauty and other things. Like, what Jen gives you really true joy in your day?
It doesn't happen every day, but true joy to me is being outside, outdoors, literally with no people around but myself. Going for a hike. Which I'm sure sounds like hell to some people, but I have to do it to reconnect and feel happy again. I get drained by talking to people and all that stuff, so that's my joy. I should probably say my family and whatever, but that's the truth. I answer truthfully.
So is this like the Into the Wild, [inaudible 00:43:15], like have you been out for a week or more at a time by yourself in the woods?
Yeah, but I was much more … yeah, I knew how to pack my backpack.
But you'll do that, you'll go out like all by yourself?
I haven't in a while but yes, yeah, for sure.
That's so cool, you're more brave than I am.
I know and every time I tell Jess about my next adventure that I want to go on-
It makes me very upset.
-she's like, "Will there be cell service?!"-
Yeah, I don't like this idea. I think there's no reason to.
But it gives me joy.
Right. Okay, same question for you, Jess.
Like, every day or just in general? What are you talking about?
Well, Jen gave us a non everyday. But simple things give me joy, like going to Trader Joes.
I have like a lot of things.
Not rushing around gives me joy.
Not rushing around is a biggie. So I've- so all my things are not rushing around. I'll give your like five example- I'll give you five things. So one, you can't laugh because I know you're gonna be like, "Oh my God! Shut the hell up! This is so crazy! You sound crazy!" I love petting my cat in the morning. Really, no it makes me so happy. It grounds me in the day. We like just chill, we hang out.
Is it like a meditation exercise.
A little bit, yeah. Okay. Jen is like, ready to leave. I love hanging out on the couch with my fiance and just eating and chilling and-
So you guys eat dinner on the couch [crosstalk 00:44:32]?
Well sometimes, well it depends, if we have a lot of talk about, it its like a big day, we eat at the table, but if it's just like, "Ugh, like let's just eat. Today was annoying and horrible." And it's like 9:30, we eat on the couch with the cat between us. So then, yeah, so it's a little bit of a family moment.
Eating on the couch is one of my pure joys.
Yeah, I love that. So eating on the couch, we watch like a Master of None or something like that with the little kitty and the food. Then, I love … this is very Jen. Walking on the street with my headphones, with no one around me just like listening to some music. And then I guess eating.
Eating?
You should see our Instagram for proof.
A big glass of wine too, like a big glass of wine. Just like a big-
We did a carafe each last week.
Yes, Oh my God!
With Daniel Martin the makeup artist.
Ugh, just like-
He did none, 'cause he's a wonderful gentlemen.
Yeah, I like going to concerts. I also like hanging out with my family, like I love, and like, laughing-
[crosstalk 00:45:26] one answer. You're giving like a whole-
You're very multi-dimensional.
Yeah, I love hanging out with my family.
God! I sound like a sociopath! I just thought we were allowed to give one answer, so I picked one thing that gave me joy. I like eating too.
[crosstalk 00:45:39] the Himalaya. Do you know what the Himalaya is? It's this like-
It's a mountain range?
In Point Pleasant?
In Point Pleasant. You know-
Oh! See of course the mountaineer would be like, "Oh, I'm going to Nepal in November", like I really- [crosstalk 00:45:51]
I'm like, "the children's ride?"
Oh my God! Is that what you thought?
Yeah, the Himalaya it goes like-
It is! It is! It's a ride.
Oh wait- oh you really are … ? OK I'm sorry I did not … so no I don't know what the Himalaya is.
It's a ride where you get in like your little car and it's so cool.
It's awesome.
And it spins as fast as you can with Rock n' Roll music and then you raise your arms and you cheer, and they go backwards, and I giggle so hard. And because of the centrifugal- centri-
Centrifugal.
Like, everyone who's on the inside pushes on a person who's on the outside-
It's actually centripetal, I think. The other one-
Centrifugal!
Well, the force. It's like giggles, giggles, giggles nonstop. If you like to spin it's amazing.
I like when somebody, like when the wrong weight is on the wrong side and like you plan … you thought you planned it right, but actually the person who's much heavier is slamming into you. Do you know what I'm talking about?
Yeah! And then you get [crosstalk 00:46:42]. Literally, like your body gets squished. Like if you are-
You'd like zorbing. You ever zorbed?
No, what's that?
It's like a big hamster ball they roll down-
You're inside. I did it in New Zealand. It's like … yeah, I haven't laughed so hard in my entire life. You just flop, you're just flying around in a little bit of water, and maybe another person or two.
Bruises, broken bones, it's amazing.
Oh it hurts?
Oh my God! You're slamming into people, rolling down a hill in a huge gerbil ball.
That's the funniest thing.
It's Himalaya, like, extreme!
I think that the way you're describing it I'm feeling like claustrophobic a little bit.
It's clear plastic so you can see out.
Can you breathe.
Yeah, yeah. You don't want to be in there too long, but …
I want a video of you zorbing!
Do I have a video?
That's so funny.
OK, well this has been amazing. Thank you so much for coming.
She's like, "Zorbing? I'm out!"
I want to say thank you to Jessica and Jen at Fat Mascara. Head to iTunes to be one of the thousands or millions of subscribers.
Millions! Definitely millions.
After this, millions!
Thank you to Math Media [phoenetic 00:47:42] for letting us record in their awesome studio, please check out their show Beauty is your Business, which covers the intersection of technology, business, and innovation on iTunes and GooglePlay. Thanks so much, ladies.
Thanks for listening to Where Brains Meet Beauty with Jodi Katz. Tune in again for more authentic conversations with beauty leaders.
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