12 years ago 11/30/2007 11:34pm CST
re: gonzo
Anything is possible. Well, except for the stuff that isn't like square circles and pro sports teams from Cleveland winning world championships. But I have a hard time believeing that someone is at their max on 45 mpw. I'm not saying it isn't possible and probably there are people here and there who can't do more, but they're few and far between.
That doesn't answer your question, but it may be that you were running too hard even at 7:20. In the glory days of the Florida Track Club the AM run was very slow, 7-8 minute pace and the guys doing it were pretty much all capable of running under 30 for 10km. So it could be that you just need to run for time and not think about how far you're going. eventually you'll get fitter and the pace will come down some. I'd also recommend vitamins if you aren't already taking them.
Bonkman,
20 miles once a week in a 50-60 mile week leaves you with 5 to 6.5 miles that you're running on the other six days. I think you've got too many miles concentrated in one day and you're not getting in enough running nearly all the time to get through a marathon well. It's probably ok, maybe even good, to do a twenty miler or two as the marathon approaches, but I think doing that each week is putting too much strain into one day and not enough into the others. I don't know how fast you'e doing these runs, but I'd keep that long run to something in the fifteen mile/two hour range and add those orphaned five miles to a midweek run. So you'd have a bunch of fives and sizes sandwiched between a fifteen and an eleven (or so.) I'd also suggest that the majority of those 50-60 mile weeks be at the 60 end of the scale and it wouldn't hurt to add another 4-5 miles onto yet another midweek run. This is ignoring other aspects of marathon prep.
12 years ago 12/01/2007 12:58am CST
re: bonkman
Nobby may not be back to this forum...you will have better luck at Facebook.com where he is indeed a member of the Arthur Lydiard group there...just type into the search bar 'Arthur Lydiard', voila!
12 years ago 12/01/2007 1:01am CST
Is hadd training lydiarism??
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=5276414716
An added plus is, I will just push the nuke button the first sign of a troll...
Or......
Wetcoast wrote:
....or the first sign of a disagreement with Nobby. I'll stick to Letsrun, thanks.
why not????
Jan Olbrecht believes in speed first, to some degree. He is a very successful coach, athletes whom he coached won 28 medals at the last Olympics.
Gebreselassie used to do speed first. It's perfectly logical, you start your base training with a strong stride when you do speed first, instead of plodding the miles day after day after day after day, getting slower and slower and slower..........
re: reg
reg wrote:
Hadd is a big fan of Lydiard and admits a very strong Lydiard inluence to what he does. There are quite a few similarities, but Hadd does rely more on specific paces, heart rate monitors and so on than Arthur ever did.
re: why not????
Are you suggesting Gebr had no base behind him? Correct me if I am wrong, but Lydiard base conditioning phase is not THAT slow. "top of one's aerobic capability" reads pretty hard if you ask me, especially on a hilly 22 miler.
Are you suggesting Gebr takes months off of running and comes back doing hilly 22 milers as intervals...
Hey! I still lurk to see how I'm being bad-mouthed! ;o)
I think here's an interesting misconception of Lydiard again. He was never keen on mixing aerobic running and anaerobic running (I don't even want to use these terms in front of Richard Gibbens!) but "speed" was another matter. He was all so keen with speed development year round as well as long-term. People used to get mixed up and scratch their heads when Arthur said, "anaerobic intervals are not speed training." In his view, repetitions or interval training is to develop your anaerobic capacity. Sure you will acquire better mechanics by doing them simply because you had not been used to running at faster speed; but the main purpose of repetitions/intervals is to develop your anaerobic capacity to maximum (once again, I don't even want to bring up the term "running efficiency" in front of Richard...). But speed development; be it hill exercises or sprint drills, Arthur was very keen on that.
Another thing is; I get quite a few e-mails from particularly younger runners, saying they want to run 5k/10k or even marathon. I feel like asking; what made them think those were their event? Right from the get-go, in his original book "Run to the Top", Arthur was keen on telling his athletes that, if they want to become a 5000m runner, start with 800 and 1500; if they want to become a marathon runner, do track distance events first (Barry Magee was a track runner way before he even tried his first marathon; as well as being a member of world record breaking 4 x 1 mile relay team AFTER he won the bronze medal in the marathon). Arthur was all keen on "honing" their speed as much as they can before they actually move into their ultimate event. Arthur's idea was to find out their basic speed first (with 200m time) and determine their best suited even first. This, of course, would have to be done AFTER they sharpen themselves (not by repetitions, but drills and hills and striding, etc.).
I had an interesting talk with Jeff Johnson (I think someone mentioned about his team) and his "backward Lydiard" experience. We sort of agreed that, by introducing young athletes to "light" intervals FIRST, they strengthened their legs (ligaments, tendons and all) so they could handle more demanding (distance) work later. I told him, in the Lyidard program, that was taken care of when his runners started out with cross country training. When you go back and check out the original "Run to the Top", his runners started out on time-based training schedule first, then as they got used to the distance work of up to 2-hours, they would start 10-week cross country schedule; then go through XC racing season; THEN they would start famous 100MPW schedule and the while shbang. So with all the XC running, banging their legs around and all, their legs were strong enough to withstand more banging (I call this "Chapter One").
I'd be curious to see, however, if anybody out there start out their athletes with dose of intervals/repetitions (anaerobic work) and work their way backward to distance running...
By the way, pardon me for being ignorant; who's Jan Olbrecht? Do you have any link or paper or article about his training? I'm very curious... But 28 medals in the last Olympics? Are you talking about Athens alone? How many medals are possible in track and field all put together? Or are you talking about other events as well? Or up to Athens? That number, I'd have to say, hard to believe...
bonkman wrote:
Are you asking simply Lydiard marathon conditioning schedule or more specific "marathon" build up? If you're already a 2:50 guy and run 20-mile each week, I don't think you'd need to worry too much about "build-up". On the other hand, if you have faded in the final miles in ALL of your previous 10 marathons, perhaps your issue if more like marathon specific preparation. I would try a few things like super long distance of, say, 28 mile run; or concider diet (off and on the run); or plain and simply, consider more race specific workout (something like 22~25 mile tempo at a bit slower than actual marathon pace; a la Japanese). You can run 2:50 based solely on conditioning if you get yourself very very fit. If you're running, say, 2:30 pace up to 20 and then bomb out, your issue is probably not on speed, but stamina.
why not???? wrote:
It's perfectly logical, you start your base training with a strong stride when you do speed first, instead of plodding the miles day after day after day after day, getting slower and slower and slower..........
One more thing; I know if I say this, I'd get crucified but...
Wetcast, I'm surprised you didn't mention--when Jon Brown spoke at our clinic in Victoria, he said when his coach, George Gandy (who was at one time Seb Coe's coach, by the way) put him on Lydiard-type build-up schedule, he didn't like it at first; it was slow plodding and boring and... But after 3 months of that, and then threw some hill training for a month; then 2 track workouts and he PRed every distance from 1500 up to a marathon (he was already a 13:30 guy by the way). He said it straight; "People just don't seem to understand--it seems to go against the logic; you're running slower but that makes you faster..." Oh, well; after all, he was ONLY 4th in the Olympics, twice! Didn't even win a medal...
Um.......
re: Nobby
"People used to get mixed up and scratch their heads when Arthur said, "anaerobic intervals are not speed training." In his view, repetitions or interval training is to develop your anaerobic capacity. Sure you will acquire better mechanics by doing them simply because you had not been used to running at faster speed; but the main purpose of repetitions/intervals is to develop your anaerobic capacity to maximum"
Well I'm really mixed up then. Reps/ints for anaerobic capacity but anaerobic intervals is not speedtraining? No wonder there is so much confusion.
There are a lot of things I would like to say but it has more meaning coming from you. I am still a hack.
If someone pins me against the ropes with some bullshit, I would knock them out with a right hook and tell them exactly what Jon Brown said :o) 2:09 guy talks and effectively ends arguments.
I was absolutely entertained watching Rod Dixon's 2:08 NYC Marathon win in '83 (DVD) damn that was fun.
Back in the late 70's , early 80's I experimented as well as coached some runners starting with short repetitions 1:1 interval gradually increasing overall volume, reps while reducing the interval. This process occurred over a nine month period. I was partially influenced by Bowerman (re gradually bringing the pace down) as the repetition length increased. "Track work" whether done on a track or park was usually two to three times per week. We usaully did at least one time per week either a 5 mile or 15K tempo run. Recovery days were usually 45 - 60 minutes with a long run on Sundays of at least two hours in the mountains. I used a "reverse pyramid". My guys and gals the year before had complained about not being able to hold their speed over the distance so we tried this approach had had relatively good success. The improvements as result were 2:04 to 1:56, another 5:00 to 4:32, 34 minutes to 31 minutes, 3:10 to 2:38 marathon with each particular athlete. Eventually I felt they really needed to build a strong base ( which none had, which is why we used the above approach).
Gandy was NOT "Seb's coach". He helped to coach. His dad was his coach.
And Lydyard didn't invent what Jon brown referred to in your quote or the other guys (west coast).
Why do Lydiardites always want to stretch the truth into their little mould.
Nobby wrote:
I should also state we switched to a Lydiard format the following year, coming out of the hill phase without exception everybody PRed. My athletes liked the approach much better due to the variety in training, surfaces etc. The Lydiard approach left them less mentally stale from the track work. By the time they hit the track they were ready to roll.
So if I'm 53 years old and ran a 33.7-second 200-meter last summer (in trainers with a light warmup), that means my best race distance would be...?
Nobby i am bonking at 2.50 pace and running 2.55- 3hours.
What do you think of hadd system of say running base miles all under 145 bpm??
How many gels would you recommend for a 2.50 at best marathon runner with obvious fuel issues?
re: Um.......
Peter Coe and George Gandy worked toegther when coaching Sebastian Coe, so Gandy was Coe's coach, as was Peter Coe.
No one ever said Lydiard invented anything. He took things that were there and organized them in a particular way.
Nobby actually talked to Jon Brown and it was Brown who mentioned the Lydiard influence. Where's sretching any truth there?
[quote]Um....... wrote:
...Why do Lydiardites always want to stretch the truth into their little mould.
We just do... Now he disagreed; nuke him! No soup for him!!! NEXT!