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1956: Rafer, Milt or Mathias
parkerclay
Re: 1956: Rafer, Milt or Mathias
Does anyone have any info on the personal bests of all three of these athletes?
Russ7291
Just wanted to say that one shouldn't make a strict comparison between Mathias and Lipp based on Mathias' score at the 1948 Games, since the weather for that decathlon was very bad.
Location: west of Westeros
That's why the comparison wasn't between the OG score and Lipp. It was Mathias from the OT. His OG score was c100 point slower than that.
So it was. But perhaps a 17 year old would have improved at a considerable rate between the Trials and the Games, and perhaps the Games' score was weather-affected to a greater degree than the difference between the Games score and the Trials score. Also, did Heino Lipp ever end up getting to a major meet--say the Europeans, and do we have a PR from him for that level of meet? I have a Zarnowski book at home that should reveal this but I don't have it with me.
Here are their respective best decathlon marks from Zarnowski's classic book The Decathlon:
Mathias Campbell Johnson
100m 10.8 10.5 10.5
LJ 7.14m 7.33 7.55
SP 15.34m 14.76 15.85
HJ 1.90m 1.90 1.89
110h 14.6 14.0 14.2
SP 48.83 44.98 51.98
PV 4.00m 3.66 4.10
JT 62.20m 57.08 72.59
1500 4:50.8 4:50.6 4:49.7
I don't have the scoring charts handy but Rafer looks like the best with Mathias and Milt fighting out for second. There are other factors like number of competitions that these occured in, age when these were done (i.e. Mathias would have improved esp. in the field events had be competed into his mid-20's, etc.) and performances in big meets. Any more thoughts??
<<1500 4:50.8
>4:50.6 4:49.7.... Any more
>thoughts??>>
Yes! in any idaliezed competition, imagine it coming down to the 1500, where the three of them--incredibly amazing--have PBs that would project to a blanket finish!
Clay Parker wrote: There are other factors like number of competitions that these occured in, age when these were done (i.e. Mathias would have improved esp. in the field events had be competed into his mid-20's, etc.) and performances in big meets. Any more thoughts??
At the peak of their careers (i.e., last OG appearance), Campbell and Mathias had just finished their junior years in college, Johnson was in his third year out of college. If you're going to give Mathias improvement for competing into his mid-20s you have to give the same sort of improvement to Campbell.
So would you place Milt above Bob?
bump, in light of new Mathias thread.
Location: Durham, NC
Rafer Johnson also competed for the USA at the 1955 Pan-Am Games, winning the decathlon (over Bob Richards - Campbell DNC that year at Pan-Ams) - and he finished 8th in the javelin throw at the 1955 Pan-Ams.
Johnson and Campbell only faced each other twice - the 1956 AAU/Olympic Trials, which Johnson won, and the 1956 Olympics, which Campbell won - although Johnson had a pulled stomach muscle.
Campbell and Mathias faced each other twice - 1952 AAU/Olympic Trials and 1952 Olympics. Mathias won both but Campbell was not yet at his prime.
Johnson and Mathias never met in competition.
Johnson entered 11 career decathlons, winning all but his first (1954 AAU) and the 1956 Olympics.
Campbell entered only 5 decathlons, winning the 1953 AAU and 1956 Olympics.
Mathias entered 11 decathlons and won all 11.
I would pick Johnson to win head-to-head with all 3 at their peaks, but I think it is close between he and Mathias. Of all time, I pick Thorpe, but narrowly over Johnson. A few years ago, Zarnowski agreed with me on this, but haven't asked him in a while.
Jim Rorick
<<Talent scout Stephen Wacaser, whose recruiting service Assists, Loose Balls and Turnovers, was subscribed to by almost every Division I program and most NBA teams, has run into legal trouble again. The Springfield, Ill., native, who has battled a gambling addiction and a checkered past to emerge as a well-respected scout of prep and junior college talent, turned himself into the FBI last week. He faces federal charges of bank robbery in the April holdup of a downtown Pensacola, Fla., bank. Wacaser, 49, who was often hired by colleges to lecture players about the 39 months he spent in prison in the early 1990s, faces up to 20 years in prison term if convicted. He was charged last year with robbing a hotel cashier in Illinois.>>
And to think, I let this guy house-sit my place for two weeks when I left for the '72 Olympics!!! He's a clear winner of the who's-the-most-interesting-T&FN-employee-of-all-time contest.>>
You think that's bad. Wacaser beat me out for the T&FN job back in 1972. I just couldn't match up with his work history and references.
Originally posted by gh
Johnson and Matthias each ranked once in the hurdles and Johnson added an LJ ranking and Mathias a DT ranking.
I think Mathias rates higher in public perception than he should simply becuase of his "boy wonder" status in 1948, which makes him a 2-time Olympic gold medalist, which has nothing to do with ultimate talent.
... and Al Oerter is overrated in the Discus.
Mathias owes his '48 gold to Joe Stalin, since it was his policies which kept Heino Lipp gulaged, and away from the Games. For it was Lipp who was No. 1 in the T&FN World Rankings that year, not Mathias. Lipp had scores of 7584 and 7780, the latter a full 556 points than the American's best.
and what is the average differential for OG performances and PRs.... Not
that Lipp would have been beaten by Mathias but goodness gracious the
kid was 17 years old!.. why such a negative view.. even a silver or a bronze
in 48 at 17 year old would make him a boywonder, heck a top 8 place would
have too.
Mathias was in the right place at the right time.
and that right place and right time was HS in middle america...
Lest anyone think I'm somehow trashing Mathias, I hasten to say that I'm not.
Lest anyone think that Im trashing the Mathias-trashing... I hasten to say Im not.
I spent some time with him in Stockholm a few years back and he's a wonderful guy. And he went on to become a legit WR holder. In fact, he set an NCAA feat that's unlikely to be matched: at the 1952 Nationals he scored in both the 110H (2nd) and DT (6th). And in '51 he had scored in the shot (6th). Incredible-incredible athlete, but still not as good as Johnson or Campbell.
I spent some time sipping sweet green tea watching ESPN Classic and I'd rate all three as extraordinary.... At their best I would go with Johnson... I would rate Mathias as even with or slightly better than Campbell.
Story on Campbell now linked on home page. (You may have to scroll down.)
Johnson-Campbell-Mathias
Per Andersen