We need to talk about that wild Avengers: Infinity War ending
Richard Priday Matt Kamen
How does Marvel's biggest Avengers film stack up? WIRED's Matt Kamen and Richard Priday discuss best scenes, departures from the comics, and that ending
Josh Brolin as ThanosMarvel Studios
With Avengers: Infinity War now in cinemas, the Marvel Cinematic Universe is reaching its potentially apocalyptic final battle. But after a decade, has the superhero showcase gotten too dense for audiences?
WIRED's resident superfan Matt Kamen and functioning human being Richard Priday discuss Marvel's latest, including how accessible it is for casual viewers, and where it could go next.
Warning: contains major spoilers for Avengers: Infinity War and related titles.
Matt Kamen: So, first reactions – you weren't super-invested in the Marvel Cinematic Universe going in, were you Richard?
Richard Priday: I was, once. Up to Age of Ultron I had seen all the MCU films, but I've not been paying much attention since then. I was nicely surprised about how easy it was for me to get up to speed again, despite having been gone for three years. Not sure whether that says good or bad things about the overall story, but all the same, I had no problems catching up. How was it as someone who's been following things more closely?
MK: I was actually surprised at how much it just blows away from the ending of recent films. On one hand, Thor: Ragnarok ending with Thor and the refugee Asgardians face to face with Thanos' ship was an obvious cliffhanger, but that movie had done so much world-building that it's almost shocking to see Infinity War seemingly wipe it all away in its opening moments. What I did like, though, was how thoughtfully this film picked up on smaller points of continuity - Iron Man having been 'exposed' to Thanos in the first Avengers movie, for instance.
RP: Yeah, I can't speak for the newer films, but the links back to the original batch of pre-Avengers Assemble films were quite strong. That surprised me, as I thought it would be leaning on the newer things more. I mean, some of the later trailers for Infinity War almost paint the film as 'Black Panther 1.5', don't they?
MK: Kind of. They lean heavily on Black Panther's deserved success. But if Captain America: Civil War was Avengers 2.5, and Thor 3 was both a sidequel to Guardians 2 and sort of Avengers 2.8, if Avengers 3 is Black Panther 1.5, then do sequels even really exist?
RP: If everything is a sequel/prequel/sidequel, then maybe not. It's a bit of a redundant idea in Marvel's case these days.
MK: That's a good point. I almost headlined my review "Marvel Universe: The Movie" because it's so much more than just an Avengers sequel. Were there any parts or characters or maybe relationships that you felt were lost on you?
RP: The relationship between Vision and Scarlet Witch wasn't something I was aware of, which seemed quite important to this film. Also the whole schism between the Avengers, that I assume happened at the end of Civil War, was a big thing that I only had half an idea of. In terms of individuals, I was unsure how Spider-Man, Doctor Strange or Black Panther were going to be as characters (since I missed all their films) but they fell into place quite quickly for me when I saw them interact with the heroes I already knew.
Winston Duke as M'BakuMarvel Studios
MK: Yes, Vizh (as he's casually known) and Scarlet Witch/Wanda getting together is comics-accurate, but apart from a few lingering glances in Civil War, there's not really been much to set up that relationship on screen. It kind of felt like the Russo Brothers - or perhaps more accurately, screenwriters Stephen McFeely and Christopher Markus - were relying on presumed knowledge from the printed medium. Are you a fan of the comics?
RP: I've not read any Marvel comics (I am a Batman guy on that front). My knowledge comes from the films, the odd video game and their bios from a deck of Top Trumps cards I had as a kid. I am sure there is a significant group of fans who have read the original material and wouldn't be fazed by Scar-Vizh, but it seems unfair to the average viewer to not have that established before now, especially with the amount of planning there must be to coordinate all the films. I have been well aware of the coming of Thanos for years, after all.
MK: Which brings us onto the great grape space ape. What did you make of this much-hyped mega-villain?
RP: He has a soft side! I was expecting something a lot more single-toned, but I suppose because we are getting two films (maybe more, you can never be sure with Marvel) with him playing such a big role, he needed some depth to stop things getting boring. But he works well, suitably threatening with plenty of time to show off his power and plans. His cronies, the Children of Thanos (which I confess I had to look up just now because I think it got mentioned maybe once in the film itself) really get skimmed over in comparison, however, despite being the film's newly-introduced baddies.
MK: Tangent alert! As I am a reader of the comics, the 'Children of Thanos' actually really annoyed me. They're a great villain team in print, with surprising depth, but here they were blank slates. Corvus Glaive and Proxima Midnight - the ones who fight Vizh and Wanda in Scotland - are actually married! Just having a creepy alien smooch or two, or them trying to impress the other on the battlefield, would have given them more character. Most of the Children of Thanos, aside from Ebony Maw, go unnamed though - which is extra-strange since the film changes one of their names! The hulking monster with the giant, morphing axe is officially Cull Obsidian here, but called Black Dwarf in the comics - why change the name, if you're not going to use them? (Also, can we take a minute to appreciate how cool the names Ebony Maw, Proxima Midnight, and Corvus Glaive are?)
RP: This sounds like it would be great to see on screen! But, err, Thanos?
MK: Oh yeah, Thanos. He was... all right? Josh Brolin is clearly doing his best with such an awkward role, and he gives a lot more gravitas than I ever expected, but again, changes from the comics kind of tear me out of it. He's meant to be the "Mad Titan", literally wants to fuck Death herself, and thinks wiping out all life is a good alternative to a bouquet of (probably wilted) flowers. Here, wanting to wipe out half of all life to rebalance the scales of the universe because the living are draining resources too quickly is almost - if you squint - kind of understandable? I just don't think Thanos is the sort of villain who needs a vaguely understandable motivation, y'know?
RP: How about his fatherly relationship with his 'daughter' Gamora? Does that count as motivation?
MK: I didn't buy his affection for Gamora at all. If you're going to make the Black Order into the Children of Thanos - which I think we're meant to take literally - and you have his other daughter Nebula around (although Guardians did make clear he didn't care for Nebula at all), then why is Gamora the only one of his 'kids' that he has an emotional connection to? I don't think anything in the Marvel Cinematic Universe has satisfactorily established this, so when that scene happened, I didn't feel moved at all. It felt instead like American "family is the most important thing" preachy nonsense of the highest order.
Karen Gillan as NebulaMarvel Studios
RP: I found it difficult to swallow as well. I was assuming that he was faking his emotions, and that they would prove his undoing in some convoluted way involving a malfunctioning Soul Stone, but apparently not. It's something to come back to next year after Part 2, I suppose. Do you think the film was maybe too full of people and plots?
MK: It actually didn't feel too crammed when watching it, but thinking back, a lot of the female characters felt under-served. Aside from Scarlet Witch's focus, Black Widow gets to kick a lot of ass but not much else, Mantis gets to sort of float around and be cute, and Gamora gets kidnapped. Maybe that's more an indictment of the MCU's low female hero count though.
RP: What was there was all well-paced and well put together, but you are right. There's not a lot of time for them to develop, they just serve the plot as required. In terms of winners on that front: aside from Thanos, Thor seemed to do quite well. Plenty of screen time and character moments even though he was the lead in the second-to-last MCU film before this one.
MK: I adore the more light-hearted take on Thor that Chris Hemsworth has delivered over his last few appearances in the role. His deadpan explanation of his murderous genealogy was hilarious. On a similar note, we've focused a lot on the 'nerd side' of Infinity War, but how about the craft side? Any other performances that stood out to you, or scenes where the composition blew you away?
RP: I am still very much in love with all of the Guardians of the Galaxy. They didn't lose their irreverence even in this story much larger than them, and Chris Pratt, David Bautista and Bradley Cooper were all great. The space side of this series is still new to me, so the star forge, Knowhere and Titan are all great-looking places. I liked the final battle on the plains outside Wakanda too. It felt just about the right size for what else was going on in the rest of the film.
MK: I do worry that Drax is veering too much into comic relief territory, but otherwise I agree. For me, Mark Ruffalo as Banner really stands out, the more I think on it. There's practically no Hulk in Infinity War, which really gave him time to shine. The Battle for Wakanda was indeed spectacular too, and it was nice to see the heroes using some strategy - opening and closing shields to manage the flow of enemies, Falcon and War Machine making aerial raids, and the melee fighters like Captain America, Bucky, and Black Panther only getting directly involved when they had to. It was a really well-considered, well-shot fight scene, which I think highlights how many 'final battles' in superhero cinema aren't. Bonus points for it not being another 'hero fights villain at night because the effects are cheaper' scene, too!
RP: I forgot about Banner. I am sure his stuff is more meaningful if you know what's going on with his lack of Hulking out, as I don't, but seeing him spend some time actually communicating in sentences, even while fighting, is obviously a huge change.
Read more: Marvel's Avengers: Infinity War thrills, despite lacklustre villains
MK: Speaking of changes, there are some big ones here. Do you expect any of them to stick, though?
RP: If you mean all the deaths at the end, then not at all. Maybe a couple will, just so the film will carry some emotional weight to it in the future, but to be honest I am just praying that they last until the second act in the next film so we actually get to experience a world without half its heroes.
MK: OK, final question - having skipped most of 'Phase Three' of the MCU, has Infinity War won you back? Are you now hyped for the still-untitled second part?
RP: I think it has. Although I have an irritating hunch that Infinity War Part Two – or whatever it ends up being called – will not be as good, because of them likely having to reset at least most of the universe at the end to keep making movies. I want to watch it – and to go back and watch the stuff I've missed up to now. Now I know that everything is leading somewhere interesting, I can understand why some of the Phase Two stuff felt a bit stale. The whole MCU now looks to me like a really long TV series with 180-minute episodes, rather than some interesting films with some less interesting ones in-between, so the pacing as a whole now makes sense. And so I've been called back into the fold again.
MK: So, "Avengers assemble"?
RP: With that post-credits stinger? Avengers assemble!
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