A good point streched across...
By Jeremy, September 1, 2000 in Doom 3
How again might I ask, was DooM blamed for the Columbine shootings? DukeNukem should have been blamed! Does DooM have pipe bombs? {which were the weapons they used} No, I think not, but what game did? Lets see, DUKE NUKEM! And another thing, you cant jump or duck in DooM, and lots of the kids in Columbine ducked and jumped! And which game is actually more civilised? Hmm, Duke Nukem looks likie a real city, and he talks, but wait, DooM, it did not look like a city, and he never talked! How come ever shootin is either blamed on Mortal Combat1, or DooM? Yeah, the atari graphiced, no blood, decade old game, is going to cuase kids to kill, but Quake3, and the newer games, nope, not a chance, not violent at all! Stupid parents, I hate them. Get rid of guns? Huh? There is a thing called "HUNTERS", and "PARENTS THAT KNOW HOW TO HIDE THERE GUNS!". So thats why I hate those f*!@#$ parent groups. No seriously, what game do you think should be blamed, and think hard, should guns really be banned from the USA? Guns can protect people from breakins, rape, murder, hunting, or any shooting sport, or defence, parents just need to hide them better, not just under their bed, or in their closet!
Please, I ask of you not to be stupid in this forum, please think hard about this. -Jeremy
Guest Space Tomato
I think there are 6 that cause this stuff to happen.
1. Guns
Solution you can only buy 1 gun per family.
2. TV
Solution Censership.
3. Hate
Solution get a cat/fish/dog/other pet to love.
4. Mental Problems
Solution help this kids.
5. Bad Parrents
Solution foster home/parrenting cource.
6. Violent Games
Solution teach kids it's not real.
Guest PainoMan
Allow me to modify:
Solution: NO GUNS, PERIOD. And a new law that states that if someone comes into your house or is on your property, you are legally allowed to kill them with your bare hands.
Solution: There are a few buttons on a TV. One of them changes the channel, the other turns it OFF.
Solution: Abolish ignorance.
4. Metal Problems
Solution: I couldn't have said it better.
5. Bad Parents
Solution: Mandatory birth control for idiots.
Solution: See number #5.
Why don't I have a custom title by now?!
This violence in the media stuff is rubbish. America has one of the worst censorship policies in the world, yet it also has one of the highest rates of domestic violence.
Japan has almost no censorship at all, yet it has one of the lowest crime rates in the world. Japan also has a strong sense of family loyalty, honour and discipline. A lot of American parents just tend to ignore their kids whatever they do.
Also, this stuff about "needing a gun to defend yourself" is a bit of a vicious circle. If guns were illegal, then your attacker wouldn't have a gun either.
Here in Britain, pretty much the only time a gun will be used in a crime is for a shop or bank robbery, and even then only in the cities. And the gun's probably a fake anyway.
America does not need guns. Britain does not have guns and we have a lower crime rate than you. So there. Or something.
BTW, aren't you a little out of date with this stuff? It happened like a year ago ;)
Guest GazG
PainoMan said:
ok, so someone comes over to your house and that gives you the right to kill them??? so if I stop to ask for directions and happen to come into your house (meaning no harm whatsoever) you can kill me with your bare hands??? that's wrong.
computer games are just an easy target to blame. take the shootings in tasmania a couple years ago. the guy had psychological problems. i saw a "protest" gathering where all these self-proclaimed "community leaders" were encouraging the kiddies to hand in thier toy guns and plant a tree instead.
notice how clinton was so quick to blame popular culture rather than america's "gun culture" after the high-school shootings. lets see, could this type of massacre happen in australia? no! because the only people that own high-powered rifles are farmers who use them in their line of work.
I've been killing computer baddies since wolf3d but i have never felt the urge to walk into a high school and start killing people. i wouldnt even know where to get a gun in the first place.
hopefully doom 3 will be the most violent game ever...
...as you pretend this subject to be.
NO GUNS, PERIOD? Who the hell are you, Rosie O'Donnel? Okay, so somebody breaks into my house with an AK-47 they bought from a criminal and I can choke them to death? Do you even SEE how idiotic that sounds?!
A derranged criminal breaks into my house, kills my dog, and is fully intent on stabbing me and raping my son. Shouldn't I have the right to defend myself, or should I just sit there and bleed while waiting the 25 minutes for the police to show up?
The problem with television lies within the parents. Nobody wants to be a parent anymore, and it's fucking bullshit. When I was a kid I wasn't allowed to watch Tom & Jerry. Why? It's violent. Does anyone even care anymore?
Don't get me started about British or Japanese culture. Ooh, the Japanese are so much better than us. Excuse me, but when I got an F on a test I never felt like the only way to restore my 'honor' was to jump in front of a Goddamn train. I don't enjoy torturing people for my own amusement either, like the Japanese do on their television daily.
As for Britian, it's a much smaller country. My state alone is bigger than that country. We have many more things here to entice the thieves. If you ban all guns, the criminals will still channel them in through Mexico or through the coasts of the Atlantic or the Pacific. You'll just hurt the good guys.
No one will try to take away my right to defend myself from thieves. Not you. Not Rosie O'Donnel. Not Al "I invented stupidity" Gore.
Your solution to hate is to abolish ignorance? How? More teachers? Pay them what it's worth? Have your kid put down the video game and actually do his homework? What about the people that refuse to learn?
Mandatory birth control for idiots? That's communistic, bucko. Only certain people should be allowed to breed? My parents weren't rich, so should I have been a stain? We're talking about gun rights, not Chinese human right violations.
As for violent games, PARENTING IS 99% PARENTS. If you don't give a shit about your kid and let them do as they please then don't be surprised when they break into your gunsafe and shoot up their classmates! For Christ's sake, those kids had pipebombs sitting on their clothes dressers! Where the hell were their parents?!
You can't blame the guns.
Criminals buy their guns illegally anyways, so why rape away my ability to defend myself?
What are you going to do? Kick in the door to every crackhouse in the ghetto and just HAND drug dealers trigger locks?
Ooh, that'll solve everything.
Suck me Al Gore, you lying, commie, rat bastard from Hell.
I fucking hate people who are deluded by the liberal media into believing the underhanded simple solutions.
GazG said:
MORE POWER TO YAH DEADNAIL! GORE SUCKS, GAMES ROCK, PHYCOS KILL. And that is fucking that!
7. Sense of humor definciency:
Solution: Mandatory lessons on how to recognize SARCASM!
Note the word "rate". As in percentage. As in size has no relevance.
stphrz
I use a blowtorch to make crème brûlée
You said in your post you have a son. How old is he? Do you keep loaded guns around your house? For firearms to be effective for self defence they have to be kept LOADED AND EASILY ACCESSIBLE!
Young children + loaded easily accessible firearms = tragedy.
At my house there are no guns. Just two big dogs, a blue healer and a german sheppard that will rip the shit out of anyone who tries to break in. There is no chance in hell a crimminal could use my dogs against me or my family either.
Vigilance is the key.
I have no children, I was making a hypothetical statement. If you visited my website you'd know that I am having a very difficult go of finding a girl between 18 and 25 that doesn't:
A: Already have a child.
B: Have a sexual disease.
C: Is mentally insane.
D: All of the above.
I have two firearms. Both are loaded and I keep them within three feet of my bed. My shotgun I keep loaded with slugs. There are no children allowed in my house, period. I've got violent video games all over the place (My VG collection exceeds $4000), loaded firearms, and worst of all... Cinemax. :)
Even then, if I did move to a more civilized area most building complexes don't allow you to have firearms. :/
I've got a nice hunting dog. Half wolf, half golden retriever. I'd like to see someone break into my house without the neighbors 2000 feet away hearing about it.
I am getting pissed at these damn issues!
I am with this guy, guns are not evil, they are actually simple devices that throw a projectile at high speeds. It's the people who use them that have the problems.
If parents are worried about their childred blowing their own heads off, then they should fully immerse the kids in it so that they will have respect for it and not treat them like toys (maybe even be afraid of them?).
Im sorry, but I don't ahve time to talk on this any more, I goto work in an hour.
Why does your description of your house remind me of a Scorsese movie?
You sound like a psychopath waiting to happen... You talkin' to me?
Oh now what makes you think I'm a psychopath?
I'm a gun fanatic?
I really enjoy shooting people in 'murder simulators'?
I listen to heavy metal music?
I get road rage really easily (IT'S THE PEDAL ON THE RIGHT MF!)?
Hey, keep reading dammit! Yeah I'm talkin' ta you!
I got kicked out of school in 4th grade for trying to strangle a classmate (A really funny story in hindsight; you want to hear it?)?
I've assaulted a homosexual in public for grabbing my ass?
"FIRING, RELENTLESS,
KILLING THE SENSES.
MY GUN WILL BE
YOUR ANGEL OF MERCY!"
God I love this CD. Anyway, where was I? Oh, yes,
I refuse to believe almost everything I hear on television because I believe that it is tripe conceived to decieve us, the American public, from the real truth that we are all indeed slaves formed neatly into categories imposed upon us?
I think about killing idiots on a daily basis, but the only thing stopping me is I know NONE of them are even worth 1/100th of the trouble I'd get? Yeah, right, you stupid bastard, just keep riding my ass I'M RELOADING.
I used to cut myself for hours on end with a dirty razor blade? You probably don't understand but deep down inside it felt really good to know I was hurting such an asshole.
I refuse to perform a "Suicide Run" because I'm secretly terrified of dying alone and sometimes cry myself to sleep? Even then, the thought of suicide seems so bland and cliche I can't even consider it. Besides, I've had so much pain in my life why would I want to instill those feelings into others?
99% of humanity seems to be here just to PISS ME OFF and GET IN MY WAY and IMPEDE MY WAY OF LIFE?
NOBODY KNOWS THAT THE GAS PEDAL IS THE ONE ON THE RIGHT?!
I'm just a regular ol' overweight white male American who's truly sick of the way things are but has no one to blame but himself. Scratch that... I blame every moron that voted for Clinton. There, I feel better.
Once you've taken a real, real, real good look at humanity and what we've done in the last 200 or so years it really doesn't seem like we're up to much good.
The basic goal of life should be to help others as much as possible while living for yourself within basic moral guidelines. Considering that, we're all going to hell.
I'll be the one in the back, cleaning the toilets... while they're being used.
"I HAVE LOST ALL FAITH.
I HAVE LOST ALL TRUST.
A SORDID MESH
TURNING TO DUST.
I AM LOST.
I AM SO ALONE."
Damn, why haven't I listened to this in two years?
The fact remains deadnail, those guns you keep around are ten thousand times more likely to do YOU in than some nameless faceless crimminal breaking into your home.
Stphrz said:
Oh really? 10,000 times more likely to do me in than an intruder? Gee, then how did we EVER win the revolutionary war, what with all of our good guys popping their own heads with their rifles?
Goddamn I hate the bullshit spread around in the media nowadays. A kid a day isn't accidentally killed by a handgun, either. The truth is your kids are a HELLUVA lot more likely to die on a bicycle than with a legally obtained and well kept handgun. What's the answer now, pedal locks? A handgun costs between $800 and $3000. If someone had the money and the desire to own one he'd also have the drive to take care of it and educate his family about it's safe keeping.
I'm not saying that there aren't morons out there, but you can't expect me to believe that EVERYONE who's ever touched a gun is automatically a blithering fool! :P
I'm not staring down the barrel all the time, throwing marbles at the trigger! They're both leaning against my dresser with trigger locks on. Those trigger locks are great. I can get one of mine off in around thirty seconds if I had to. Plus, trying to saw or drill it off will destroy the gun itself.
Even then, I don't sleep with my eyes open. If someone was good enough at breaking in he could snuff my ass and I'd never know. But most theives are drug addicts, stubling around looking for the obvious cash-ins. If I saw one in my house I'd yell at him and audibly cock the hammer. If he pulled a weapon of his own I'd put him down. If he ran I'd blast a hole in his leg. If he did as I said and put his hands on his head he'd be fine... until the cops show up.
The LAST thing I ever want to do is hurt someone. I've had enough of that shit in my life. However, if someone breaks into my house and is fully intent on walking off with something I bled for I'm sure as hell going to make him think twice!
I could live a long and happy life knowing that my guns will rot in a corner and rust into nonexistence before ever having a legitimate use. However, I can't believe a fairy tale like that... not with all the people I've met in my life. Sorry, Al Gore, you're the last person I trust with my safety!
It's just a fact. Research it. People using firearms to defend themselves from an intruder are ten thousand times more rare than firearms used in suicides, accidents and domestic disputes. I made no moral judgement on firearm ownership. It's also a fact that keepin loaded firearms around without the intention of immediate use is just plain unwise. You are not a police officer, you are not a soldier on a battle field. For someone with so much knowledge of weapons, you seem to have little respect for them. If you are worried about intruders, train your dog to defend your home and install an alarm system. Unload you guns and lock them away from your ammunition. Believe me, you can always bring them out of storage in case there's another revolution.
It's not a fact, and I have researched it. TV says your ten times more likely to kill your kid than an intruder, and the NRA says that thanks to it's efforts of gun safety that number is still dropping.
Suicide? Not gonna happen. Read the post below this one.
Accident? Trigger locks. I change the ammo every 6 months.
Domestic dispute? Yeah, right. I can't even slap a woman.
I get 'whipped really, really easily. :)
It's not unwise to keep firearms. When I was 7 there was a truck full of drunken Mexicans that tried to break into our house. Luckily, my mother shot at them with a starter pistol and they ran like hell. :)
There's nothing I respect more in the world for it's physical power to take human life more than a gun. I know it's extremely dangerous, that's why I don't play with them. I *always* have the key on me so no one else could even use them. Yes, even when I sleep.
I'm not really worried about intruders. Then again, that's like driving without a seat belt not worrying that I'M gonna crash while ignoring the fact that other drivers could still hit me.
My ammuntion is locked, BTW. One of those really handy safes that I paid $75 and hid. As for the guns, THEY'RE HARMLESS RIGHT NOW. A trigger lock is two pieces of metal, both titanium! You can't drill it, cut it, or even pick the lock. Ammo is safe; it won't 'cook off' until you hit the 200-300 degree range, and I change it every six months so it's fresh.
You seem to have little faith in trigger locks.
hehehe.. I like him... he's funny!
geekmarine
OK so what are you going to do? It is far more likely that a person breaking into your house will try to kill you if you do something stupid, like reach for your gun. This is a very rare scenario anyways that there would be a person in your house that you knew about before they discovered you and were somehow able to get your gun from wherever you keep it and then actually be able to use the gun to defend yourself. Besides, you are more likely to accidently kill someone you care about with a gun than stop a burgler. People being saved by owning a gun is such a rare occurance, and kids accidently blowing their friend's brains out because a parent had a gun is so common, I think that the very real dangers of guns far outnumber any imaginary "benefits" that guns provide. As for the original message, I think that the real problem is irresponsible parents and disturbed kids are the real problem. I believe that violent video games and TV shows are just the trigger that sets off the kids, and that we need to address the kids and their their parents to solve the problems, not censoring media. You need to treat the disease, not the symptoms. If you censored violence, then you really wouldn't solve anything, the kid would still be disturbed. On the other hand, though, I think we need to draw the line at some point. It would be wrong, for example, to have public executions on TV or games where the object is to slaugher innocent bystanders. The French Revolution was as bloody as it was in part because of public executions, and people were desensitized to death to the point that they never even cared that they were slaughtering thousands of people. I know some people here have already repeated what I said, but I just wanted to get this off my chest.
TV??? ROFL. I don't trust the NRA statistics any more than the government's. If you want the truth you have to go elsewhere. Put the internet to good use bub. Find independent and verifiable stats. I could give you the places where I got my info, but you wouldn't believe in them unless you went through the process of finding them yourself.
Lüt
I think the hype people are giving the littleton accident is definately nuts. I think all the people who are concerned about this shooting business are idiots. Get over it. Nobody (outside of immediate friends and family) should care. I'm certainly not going to sort through all these 2 million news reports and postings that appear every minute on message boards all over the net, nor listen to anything on the news. Reporters are digging up every little thing they can find and making it into some huge problem which gets people with IQ's lower than 3 all concerned. These reporters are nothing but tabloid reporters wearing ties. They're no more informative than the National Enquirer. They're a bunch of airheads. Because of them, this is getting ridiculous amounts of attention. Geez, the president even came on TV! People, get a life. Put things in perspective. What exactly is this "Littleton Massacre"? I'll tell you - Two people out of millions and millions kill 15 people out of millions and millions. Big whoop. Suicides? Drunken driving accidents? Regular shootings? Robberies resulting in death? Conveniently put aside. The media manipulation is that this is happening everywhere. It's not, and it probably won't. Nobody outside of that town should even give a damn. Statistically, they had the ability to kill AT LEAST 400 people, and they only got 15. That's a miserable 2.5% of capacity. That's failure. A big fat F. There's definately room for improvement there. I hope somebody else can manage that soon so that all you damn stupid people would get it through your thick skulls what a REAL loss might be, if you could call 400 people a real loss... However, constant news of this Littleton massacre even today is exactly the kind of news the public doesn't need to hear. I'm in Illinois and I'm hearing about news in Colorado. No wonder so many outcasts are being inspired by it. You can't blame the shooting craze on the violent entertainment anymore, it's the imbecile's who are putting the thoughts in the kid's heads. Not movies, not TV shows, but real-life newscasters. The idea has already been planted, there's probably nobody who hasn't heard about it, so now there's no point in banning violent entertainment. Smooth move mentioning "Basketball Diaries" on the news too, now everybody's probably rented that and gotten even more inspired to commit a similar act. It's news that you (unfortunately) just can't trust people with. I've witnessed a lot of my friend's CD collections and shirts being thrown out by ignorant parents. If it really is just the start of a nationwide reign of shootings and stuff, some people will go nuts, other people will go crazy because of the people who went nuts, and on and on until you'll get the occasional person or two running down the street or going to live in the forest or pulling their kids out of school or shooting themselves so they don't get shot first, etc., and when all this is happening because it's the only thing on news channels and radios everywhere, I'm going to sit back in my recliner and laugh at the nation's stupidity. It's inspiring, though. I've changed the theme of my band's first CD-Single to school shootings and put a picture of six of us walking into the school grounds in those Dark City outfits (ankle-low trench coats, black top-hats and gloves and shoes) carrying guns and bombs (and a nuke for good measure :). Normally I wouldn't do anything like that, but I think there needs to be a balance between the people who can put things in perspective and the people who act on impulse. They think Rammstein or Marilyn Manson is bad, I'll show them bad. It's not there to provoke an immediate reaction, but more-so to show what's REALLY bad as compared to what most people only THINK is bad because it's the worst thing they've heard to date. It's like the people I mentioned above - they hear about shooting #1, with 2 or so injured, then shooting #2 with 3 injured and 1 dead, then shooting #3 with 15 injured and 9 dead, then #4, #5, #6, etc. and each time they have the exact same bad reaction about the increase in death tolls because each time it's more tragic than the last. I wish somebody would just hurry up and get the big one out of the way so we don't have to go through the usual "this one was FAR worse than the last one" crap everytime a shooting happens. Then again, it could be a good thing - it's a two-way argument that follows the pattern of the Hiroshima bombing: Innocent people? Yes. Could have saved more lives by carrying out the bombing? Well, we don't know. Could a reign of school shootings help people get along together in a few years? Well, again we don't know, but I'd say yes. It's a real eye-opener, and constant enactment of the shootings would probably get the attention of even the most apathetic uncaring kid in the nation. Not to get philosophical, but a saying came up in my Humanities class years ago "It is better to feared than to be loved". It's probably true, especially for this type of person-to-person situation. Fear of somebody will often lead to intrigue about them and intrigue to conversation, etc. and that's when people will learn to get along better with other people; it'll open their mind to the different lifestyles and groups around them. I know that was worded horribly, but believe me almost everybody I know has never even associated with people outside of their own group of friends, and those who have haven't done it willingly, and it showed. Being the person who won't join a single group of people, I usually sit back and watch other people interact. People have so many untrue conceptions of the people sitting around them. A simple two-minute conversation would help straighten all this out. I know people who hate other people's guts who wouldn't if they would only talk to them real quick. It's not violent entertainment that is causing the situations, it's bad social skills. People don't know how to associate with other people. If government money gets spent on anything, it should be on getting people to converse.
And if anybody read all that... :)
GUNS: Tough one. The one-per-home sounds really good, and also see to it that it never leaves the actual house. Now before all you hunters and collectors bitch about wanting to have a collection of guns and being able to take them out hunting, etc. - little storage centers for check-ins and storage for more than the one house gun should go up. People can still get their guns and it'll be on record how long they have it, just in case they really are nuts, and it'll be protected when they don't. I can't think of a good example of places like this for other purposes, but you know how it would go. Like bank safes, I suppose, but for guns.
TV: Do you really trust a kid to not watch something you tell them not to? I sure as hell have no intent of babysitting the TV anytime a kid wants to watch it (not that I would, but there's a few things I probably wouldn't show to kids under 9 or 10.)
HATE: I really, really, really think there should be criminal charges for stupidity or narrowmindedness.
MENTAL PROBLEMS: Check in. That's about all I can say. Annual (if not closer) exams should be a mandatory part of citizenship.
BAD PARENTS: You can't do much more than what is already being done. It's a matter of getting people to testify, and usually nobody will. It's like with rape, almost all of the rapists get away with little or no charges.
VIOLENT GAMES: Just like televisions and furniture, they should be separate from the kiddie games and business software. No big deal. Somebody earlier was complaining about an ordinance requiring their state to put violent arcades in a seperate room from the rest of the games... I don't have a problem with having to walk into a seperate room to play different games. I can't imagine anybody having a problem with that. Plus the kids who get in there would feel even more special.
I've come to some conclusions about all this. A lot of it has come from reading Lüt's comments on this thread. The conclusions are actually quite startling and I'm surprised I find myself thinking this way, but here goes.
Guns and Violence: There is NO solution to this problem. It's just simply too late for legislative remedy. There's hundreds of millions of firearms in circulation. Control cannot work. I say let anyone of any age buy any weapon with no background checks and no accountablity or restrictions whatsoever. The cost in life will be staggering of course. Real, lasting, changes in the human heart only seem to occur when sufficient lives have been lost. The lives lost so far are not enough I guess. The debate rages on, people continue to die(but not enough), and nothing changes. Open the floodgates. Give the NRA and their lapdogs what they want. Give it to 'em in spades. Repeal every gun law ever written and see how they like the result.
Hm. Interesting, but that's not what I wasn't trying to convince people of :) I'm not an anarchist or anything, I just like playing devil's advocate. I usually feel it my duty to take opposing viewpoints from mainstream just to get the other side of the issue out into the open. It gets to be a habit of having to think for other people.
I think there should be specific areas people can have guns, and anywhere else they're a walking target for cops. Call 'em gun zones. Well I don't want people around my town carrying those things with them. Hunting and target ranges, fine. Streets, stores, schools, fuck no. Not as long as I plan on having kids of my own; if it were just me I wouldn't care much at all.
sirgalahadwizar said:
Now I have time to talk.
Those people were kinda crazy. Actually I think all racists and nazis are nuts (they were after all racists of some kind).
Just because the fact that they play doom or shot guns in their spare time doesn't mean in effect that that's what caused them to do it. After all the guy who shot those kids in Paducah was distressed over the breakup with his girlfriend. He was only more "effective" in doing it because he shot guns and played bloody games.
Taking our guns away wont solve the problem. Even if the whole world bans them (which wont bloody well happen), people will still have knives, bows/arrows, and all sorts of other archaic deadly weapons. A knife is just as deadly as a gun in the properly trained hands (it just doesn't have the range), not to mention that you can make explosives *Very* easily (not that I have done it).
Crazy Talk below:
Those guys in littleton not only picked the wrong weapons, but they also did bad planning as well. I would not have used a shotgun, I would have used a semi-automatic high-powered rifle and brought roughly 300 rounds (about 10 clips).
With this setup they would have killed about 150 people because you will probably die from a 7.62mm gunshot wound (they blow off limbs and splatter internal organs). They might even kill a few cops with this too since standard kevlar armor will not protect from high-velocity projectiles (actually you need a flak-jacket or better to deflect them)
Now that the crazy stuff is said.
I do not promote in any way this kind of violence, as it ruins whole lives and makes it worse for everyone else (because of increased totalitarian-like laws being passed, hmmm... like banning guns?).
While I do admit that I have emotional problems, and have frequently thought of doing what they did, I did not do it. I have something called "self-control", something the people who did thier dirty deeds in those places don't seem to have.