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"Boys are becoming girls" because they want to live life on easy mode, completely wrong Reddit MGTOWs declare
Life for women consists mostly of sitting around waiting for men to give them gifts, so it's no wonder men want o get in on the action!
By David Futrelle
The angry misogynists who call themselves Men Going Their Own Way like to think of themselves as gender nonconformists of a sort, refusing to give in to what they see as intense social pressure to settle down and become husbands and providers — even if such pressure doesn't actually amount to more than occasional naggy questions from relatives and coworkers about why they're not married, and even though the overwhelming majority of married women themselves work.
But if you think their oft-proclaimed status as, er, gender outlaws of a sort might give them a tiny bit of empathy for or understanding of trans people — whose very existence challenges traditional notions of a simple and immutable gender binary — well, let's just say you'd be very disappointed. Indeed, MGTOWs' takes on trans women are as fucked-up as their takes on cis women, if not more so.
Today on the MGTOW subreddit — one of the largest MGTOW forums online, with more than 90,000 subscribers — some of the regulars are discussing this little screengrab, evidently nicked from one of the chans:
Naturally, the regulars agree with this assessment wholeheartedly, seeing the logic as self-evident: women have lives that are so much better than men in almost every way that men are deciding to go trans as a way to make their lives easier.
Clearly this deserves a reaction gif of some sorts, though I can't think of any quite strong enough. Perhaps some turbocharged combination of these two classics?
But this is what these guys really and truly believe.
"The game isn't just 'too hard', it's biased and rigged," writes a MGTOW Redditor calling himself fasterfind.
Women treat men like shit. The only way to be an acceptable member of society or to be treated nicely is to be a woman. Until then, you're disposable and nothing matters. You'll also play as a man, which means that if you're looking for love or acceptance, then your resources will be depleted and taken, then you will still be disposed of. It's not worth it.
While sympathetic to the boys he thinks are "becoming girls" to make their lives super-easy, Fasterfind concludes that it makes more sense to simply refuse to "play the game" in the first place, becoming a MGTOW who demonstrates his complete independence from women by complaining about them on the internet all day.
"I'll admit I've considered popping easy mode pills before," confesses someone calling himself shetoldmeto80.
[N]ow I am too old and too masculine looking to get away with it.
This wasn't some gender dysphoria thing really, it was a social/practical thing I guess. Why not live life on easy mode?
In another comment, shetoldmeto80 uses the alleged "fact" that cis men are deciding to become trans women to make things easier for themselves as further evidence that life really is easier for women.
What is truly in question then, if this is a big trend, is how much more priviledged women are that men want to become one for practical reasons… If most men going M2F are doing it for practical reasons, then we can safely assume that society is sexist towards men and gender equality actually means "female domination"…
A lot of "iffing" going on there.
You do not see many F2Ms simply because there is no major upside to becoming a man. There was an article back then of some woman trying out testosterone injections for a while and stopping because she claimed it was a fucking nightmare.
Well, no, dude, the reason you "do not see many F2Ms" isn't because trans men don't exist; it's because you — and society in general — isn't really interested in recognizing their existence.
Though hard numbers on the demographics of the trans and gender nonconforming population are notoriously difficult to come by — for assorted reasons mostly connected to transphobia — one recent study based on Centers for Disease Control data concludes that the ratio of trans women to trans men, while not 1:1, is much lower than previous studies have concluded (and the popular imagination has assumed), with roughly 46 trans women to every 33 trans men.
Not that the MGTOW Redditors would be much interested in knowing about trans men, because their existence in large numbers undermines the crackpot theory that trans women are, for the most part, really men seeking an easier life.
Given that the MGTOW Redditors think that trans women are really men, it's perhaps not surprising that they think these men make better women than "real" women do.
"What is really fucked up," writes someone called
T0000009,
is that those boys are actually better looking and more feminine that real females
"Even the ones that don't look better usually look more FEMININE," declares someone called Tsukikoselenia, who turns out to have rather a lot of opinions on the subject.
Thing is, a MtF has to really try in order to look feminine. Biology is pretty much against him, even if he wasn't a "buff guy" to begin with. Aside from fakeup, it usually implies a complicated diet for a while in order to ensure the desired fat redistribution, etc. Few people know the typical female body characteristics (such as the importance of eyebrows when it comes to gender identification as an example; something women don't care about and jut remove them and draw them with a pencil instead…) as well as a "serious" MtF.
Although I've also seen quite a lot of them that were just thinking that putting a dress and using 2 filters on snapchat meant switching gender. But whatever about these ones.
Thing is, if you want to be good-looking, no matter the gener, it requires efforts. It's just that for women these "efforts" nowadays mean crap like only fakeup and nail art, or dressing in a slutty way. Of course compared to this, anyone doing even the bare minimum will look ok if not better.
In another comment, Tsukikoselenia expounds further on the alleged failure of "real" women to do the hard work necessary to become sufficiently hot in his eyes.
If you care about your body enough to try to transition, chances are, you'll try to avoid looking like a landwhale and eating junk food every single day. Most actual women don't give a crap about this. Look at them complain about how they -need- makeup because men just don't know how bad a woman's skin is without makeup, instead of just eating better in order to avoid looking like a zombie. When the other side doesn't even try anymore because it is too lazy and because of feminism and PROGRESS, it's quite easy to look better compared to it.
A few commenters actually come out and say that they would prefer to date trans women over their "real" counterparts. Someone called Vrabo spells out what he sees as their many advantages:
More feminine, has a cock, speaks your mental language, can't hit the wall, doesn't have female rights to fuck you over…
But not all of the assembled MGTOWs are willing to go quite so far. While agreeing that these men-turned-women-who-are-still-basically-men do look better than "real" women, a commenter called DarkNights292 declares that he doesn't think he "could get past that it has a dick flopping around."
Yes, he used the word "it."
Still, his outright transphobia is probably a better thing for trans women than Vrabo's brand of trans fetishisn — rooted as it is in misogyny and transmisogyny. No woman, cis or trans, deserves to be burdened with the sexual attentions of a MGTOW.
H/T — Thanks to trans researcher Os Keyes for pointing me to the study on the demographics of the trans and gender nonconforming population.
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Posted in: crackpottery, creepy, dude you've got no fucking idea what you're talking about, empathy deficit, entitled babies, evil messy ladies, evil ugly women, irony alert, men who should not ever be with women ever, MGTOW, misogyny, penises, playing the victim, reddit, transmisogyny, transphobia
Katamount says:
@Cyborgette
Oh yeah, the whole Sleepaway Camp series is predicated on that trope. God, what dumb dumb goofily dumb movies.
misophistry says:
Transitioning certainly wasn't easy mode for the first 10 years. For the first 5 years I couldn't even get a job, proper housing or walk up the street without some shouted abuse. Gradually the shouts quietened to mutters and whispers. But I can never really trust people who I don't know anymore.
Most MRAs would have taken the "easy" way out if they had been me.
Bakunin says:
I had a discussion with my last therapist regarding Silence. She pointed out the line that Hannibal gives, claiming that Gumb isn't "really" trans, just thinks he is. I pointed out that that's gatekeeping bullshit, and that the writer wanted a trans killer trope but was too chicken to commit to it.
Mayu Kitsune says:
Isn't "Cant hit the wall" Code that these MGTOWs havn't seen a single trans women besides the people 4chan creepily lusts over and therefor think transwomen have the secret to eternal youth or some shit? I know it all comes back to T***s but I cannot get how that works other than MGTOWs dont think trans women age or they really are just talking about how alot of trans women are killed
Cyborgette says:
@Bakunin
TBH tropes like that were a big part of why I took so long to even consider transitioning. I have a lot of anger about this kind of rubbish.
Allandrel says:
I'm glad that the Medium article mentions The Silence of the Lambs' issues with claiming that Buffalo Bill isn't trans while coding him as trans all the while. I love that movie so much, but it is VERY problematic.
It's much like how the producers of Big Bang Theory keep saying "Why are you calling Sheldon Cooper an autistic stereotype? We NEVER said he was autistic" all while coding him as Autism Guy.
Re: "the wall"
So there is this thing where going through a second puberty can make people appear to age in reverse for a bit. I started transition with premature jowls and perpetual bags under my eyes, and spent a year looking like I was just out of high school again, before my body settled on its current (more dignified) shape.
TBQH I suspect the whole thing about trans women "not hitting the wall" is more about MGTOWs and their ilk fetishizing the living creepy fuck out of this, because remember, they also fetishize teenage girls. Because they're just that scummy.
Ansie says:
FYI the 2015 transgender survey(google it) says that the ratio of Ftms to Mtfs is almost exactly equal. People only perceive there to be more transwomen because passing is harder for transwomen since the barrier to passing for cis male is far lower to the barrier for passing as a cis woman. Plus society is very sensationalistic towards transwomen because to society a "man becoming a woman"(despite transwomen not considering themselves men) is more scandalous than "woman becoming men).
Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie says:
This thought pattern isn't the shark in the water, it's the fuckin' WATER…. That's why even liberal whites (read: "white liberals") can say the MAGA kid wasn't being smug — they just can't see how endemic the sense of entitlement of white men IS….
The mgtows who post this shit are driven by one grievance: "I'M NOT GETTIN' MINE, AND IT'S YOUR FAULT!!!"
Oh, and for David, the best gif for stuff like this is a clip from "Blazing Saddles", Clevon Little (after he threatens to shoot himself if the townspeople try to hang him for being Black While Sheriff)…
He sez "I am so smart… and they are soooo DUMB" — just the second part.
@ Cyborgette;, @ Cat Mara
I think you're giving them way too much credit…. I think they believe that because they only fetishize a particular person for a short time, then move to another. Then they never see any aging in any one person.
https://ytcropper.com/cropped/G55c537de25611e
Cat Mara says:
@Cyborgette:
Just when you think the manosphere can go no lower, they find a way… they are like a Bose-Einstein condensate¹ of suck.
¹ An exotic state of matter where all the atoms enter a super-low quantum state when chilled close to absolute zero. One of the bizarre properties exhibited by a Bose-Einstein condensate is superfluidity; that is, it will actually crawl out of any container it is put in. Much, in fact, like the way my flesh does reading about the manosphere.
I hear you. I had my own issues before realising AGP was nonsense. And the author of the Medium article missed a movie. Ace Ventura.
Given how it seems like they cribbed the image used in that post from 4chan I lean more to "They just only look at and fetishize the more conventionally attractive trans women (And a fair few cis men who happen to actually be the real cis men being the real gender noncomformists)" Also can I mention how the whole T*** thing erases gender nonconforming men? cause like it implies "men would never actually wanna dress in GIRLY clothes, they must be gay or evil and are tricking straight men" cause of course straight cis male crossdressers do not exist apparently
@ AlanRobertshaw; @ Cat Mara:
Hey, that's not true. We're oppressed in loads of ways. There's…er, hang on.
Nope, not that. What about…No, not that either…Hmmm?
Ya think…? Please to remember, the overriding reason the dumpster-fire-in-chief won the "angst-y white male" vote is because White Genocide Oppression… things like; "asking white men to stop publicly abusing people who aren't them" and "asking white men to stop assuming EVERYTHING is thought, said, and done EXCLUSIVELY for them."
Not to mention outrages like "allowing non-heterosexual people to marry", "allowing transgender people to use the bathroom", "asking police to stop murdering black people"… Shall I go on??
If THAT'S not "oppression", I dunno what is….
Phaos says:
On presentation, here's a personal story.
So, while it's been relatively recent that I've increasingly been able to accept the reason for this, I've felt my body was awful and wrong effectively since puberty. It's manifested in a variety of kind of embarrassing ways throughout my life, many connected to personal hygiene. Anyway I've also always been small and slight (I won't be super tall for a woman and I'm certainly not for a man), and just to stop looking like a literal child I would also rarely shave. I'm old enough to actually appreciate getting carded and it still happens from time to time. So to actually take this story somewhere, I'm currently in the midst of a struggle with said facial hair (I've got some stuff to try waxing it showing up tomorrow fingers crossed!) and it's occurring to me how fucking EASY it is for me to present as a man. I have to push uphill just to get to a point where I've not got a bunch of gross hair screaming MAN on my face. Equally though, I can't just go back now because just the tiny baby steps I'm taking forwards are making me feel fulfillment I'm not sure I've ever really felt before.
Citerior Motive says:
Ellesar: Just a wee note that nowadays the accepted spelling is 'trans woman' or 'trans man' with a space, as trans is an adjective that modifies the noun—'transwoman' kind of gives the impression that we are a separate category from women, rather than a particular type of woman, and similarly for 'transman'.
I have a friend who is a trans woman, and once she admitted that she was an MRA before realising she was trans because she envied cis women and assumed that all men felt the gender dysphoria that she did.
It makes me wonder how many MRAs or MGTOW types are like that.
jone (social justice cleric) says:
It's true that trans men are invisible.
I'm more agender in a cis woman body. I have higher natural testosterone than most women, says my endocrinologist.
It makes me feel like having sex a lot…or I feel like having sex a lot regardless.
I don't have a desire to have a penis, though. I get sick of my breasts as it is, they always get in the way.
It took me so many years to figure out how to orgasm with my lady parts that I'm not about to give them up now.
But I would love to not have periods. That would be nice.
Gender Superposition says:
Allandrel, great point about Sheldon Cooper. I said it on the last post, Sheldon is basically a hate crime.
My easy mode currently consists of:
1) No transition at work for fear of job loss (and the fear of a small number of people generally being assholes about it). I don't feel whole there, and I'm there 50-60 hours a week.
2) No idea when I will see my son again.
3) A trial separation from my spouse while they decide if our marriage will survive my transition.
It doesn't feel super-easy ATM if I'm honest.
(I'm fine, by the way. Just facing a lot of change at a time of life that I expected things to feel much more stable.)
tohka says:
Fasterfind concludes that it makes more sense to simply refuse to "play the game" in the first place, becoming a MGTOW who demonstrates his complete independence from women by complaining about them on the internet all day
Pretty much mgtow. But according to the multiverse therapy, there's a universe with mgtows help men, those both who are cis and trans, with exploring new hobbies and understanding mental health. They aren't hostile and quite helpful
Also, gotta appreciate how these guys pit trans women and cis women against each other in terms of appearances. So tired of that narrative that women must fight each other for our worth and for a man's approval. It should be both women stand up and leave to have an awesome day while the angry mgtow is left alone.
Once again, with migtoes, all I ever see is them Going Their Own Way…from REALITY.
Take everything they say, swap the genders around, or rotate it 180º, and you'll get something a lot closer to the truth.
Must be nice to have the (cis/het/white) male privilege of being so damn delusional.
@Bina
No I can totally see it, because I know there was every risk that I'd have fallen down my own asshole like them. Where the difference comes is who ones blames for one's problems. They have this idea that they're perfect and that any problem in their lives must come from the outside, whereas even when it's actually someone else's fault I always blame myself first for every single wrong thing in my life.
Like it's a super spurious example but for example I enjoy some rather difficult action games and I'm really quite bad at them. I die a goddamn lot but every time I can identify the way in which I failed and it doesn't feel good (it sometimes feels downright unfair), but even if it can be a bad spiral to constantly negatively self-assess at least that allows for something in your control that can improve your situation. MGTOWs and their ilk have created a scheme where they claim not to care what anyone else thinks but SUPER do. Like all this weird shit about trans women says it exactly because if you take their shit to its logical conclusion we're the real 'men going our own way'. That way being the fuck away from masculinity.
Podkayne Lives says:
@Lainy
Probably because the life expectancy for trans women is horrifyingly low.
That makes gruesome sense, but I don't think these guys get that part.
Priscilla Poopalot says:
It is funny, because we just recently talked with some girls about getting penises, to achieve success in the corporate and political scenes. (As a joke, of course, just saying.) We decided it would be too troublesome to get surgery, but a huge (white!) rubber dildo should do the trick. He'd be called Dick McMann. We'd just march in and place Dick in the middle the meeting room table, to assert dominance. And if someone is being inappropriate, or otherwise sexist, we can just tell them to talk to Dick 🙂
@Priscilla Poopalot
That is basically what is already happening anyhow in boardrooms all across everywhere.
I wanted to add something to the discussion of transmasc invisibility. As a trans man, who's mostly read as a cis man now, but wasn't always, I don't think it's just that it's easier for trans men to pass as cis. I do get read as a cis man, but I have plenty of friends who are also trans men and aren't, some of who likely never will be (IME height is a big factor in this).
My take is more that when trans men don't get read as cis men, we get read as cis women. Because the cis general public's ideas of transness are so heavily tied with transfemininity, they generally don't recognise even very visibly transmasc people as transmasc, but either as butch cis women or cis men. A trans woman can not be read as a cis woman, but still be very visibly a trans woman, whereas a trans man who doesn't read as a cis man will likely get read as a cis woman.
(Also as a side note, that '35 years life expectancy' factoid isn't true. That comes from 35 being the average age of death of people on a TDOR list one year. There are plenty of trans people who don't get murdered. We can acknowledge the horrors of transphobia, transmisogyny, and transmisogynoir without spreading false statistics, especially ones that lead young trans people to believe they have no future.)
Shadowplay says:
@Priscilla
I can think of several thousand briefings where your method would have livened things up to almost "don't mind staying awake" levels, so it's got that going for it. 😛
qorl says:
It must be really difficult for Mgtows to decide who they hate more: cis women or trans women.
Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy says:
Re "won't hit the wall" – that whole ridiculous notion of the wall is tied up with MGTOWs' equally ridiculous notion of evo-psych, or bio-troofs. As far as I know, "hitting the wall" is based on their belief that cis women peak in sexual attractiveness and fertility (as these are one and the same for miggies), at around age 20 – or is it even younger now? So, in their twisted logic, trans women won't hit the wall.
Shorter version, if I can paraphrase @qorl above:
It must be really difficult for Mgtows to decide who they hate more: cis women or trans women. Equally difficult is: who do they get more wrong?
Michea says:
So I guess trans men are just playing the game on ultra then?
Megpie71 says:
I do love the unspoken assumption of most transphobes that the whole process of gender transition just "happens", and isn't strictly gate-kept all the way by people who are intent on making sure the people who are wanting to transition aren't just undergoing serious bodily alteration for funsies, or as a symptom of (the wrong type of) mental illness. It's like "yeah, trans women asserting their female identities do have to perform a tightrope walk between being feminine enough to pass, but not becoming hyper-feminine, because that's fetishisation and BadWrong". They aren't allowed to transition to become the sort of woman who spends her life in jeans and t-shirts, working on cars and things like that – they're expected to take up a stereotypically female role in society, perform stereotypical femininity in their dress and performance, and if they don't do this, they can have their access to the hormones which allow them to keep their bodies matching the "them" in their minds taken away. (Similarly, trans men asserting their masculine identities also have to present in stereotypically masculine ways, and largely seek out stereotypically masculine activities and occupations).
I doubt there's many trans women out there who are allowed to transition to be women like me – someone who only occasionally goes into skirts, habitually doesn't wear make-up, doesn't shave her legs or underarms by choice, shaves her face[1] only on days where she's expecting to be out in public, and who tends to dress for comfort rather than femininity. I get this particular privilege because I obtained my female status by surviving puberty, at a time where the ways of performing femininity were under question and in flux, and therefore a more "butch" presentation (wrecked, I have to admit, by my rather short and curvy figure) was just as acceptable as a "femme" one. But it costs me in other ways – I've no doubt my lack of make-up, and lack of appropriately "feminine" presentation have cost me job opportunities at times, although to be honest, if an employer isn't willing to employ me because I'd rather wear trousers and flat shoes than high heels and a pencil skirt, I may be better off without that job in the first place.
PS: No, I'm not trans. I definitely identify as cis female (cis-het, even). I'm just not femme very often. (I am autistic, though).
[1] Yes, I shave my face. Blame hormones; mine went all wonky in my mid-twenties through mid-thirties, and by the time it got sorted out, I had a crop of facial hair which was thick enough that I decided the traditional masculine method of removal was a lot less painful and expensive in the long term.
Crip Dyke says:
@Megpie71:
I do love the unspoken assumption of most transphobes that the whole process of gender transition just "happens", and isn't strictly gate-kept all the way … I doubt there's many trans women out there who are allowed to transition to be women like me
Sounds like we're almost exactly alike, but I had the "luck" of transitioning in Portland, Oregon, where there were no gender clinics and when a provider was gatekeeping a little too hard, I just left and never came back. Meanwhile I had queer friends of mine going to Planned Parenthood for birth control pills they didn't want or need then giving them to me so I could use them to as closely as possible reproduce the dosages that had been previously prescribed and worked well before docs got discouraged that I wasn't femme-ing correctly.
A few years after I got birth control pills from friends who got them from PP, the local PP started dispensing them directly to trans* folk, but when I went on hormones it took more creativity than that.
Virgin Mary says:
As someone who identified as trans masculine from an early age, I was told not to transition by my doctor who says that I was a 'pretty girl and should just go and get on with my life'. Being influenced also by the Plymouth Brethren, who deny females the right to speak in their assembly and the right to have any personal authority, I was told the Lord made me female and I should find my identity in Christ as 'separate but equal'. I lost my close male friends as they were not allowed to have female friends who would be Jezebels and lead them into sin. I felt abandoned and have always blamed my gender for this.
A trans man, in their eyes is somebody trying to 'steal the crown', and the authority of God. I was made to feel like Babe the pig, or Racing Stripes in that however aspirational being a man would be, I'd still be another species and a fake. I battle with this every day. I identify as NB now, but I'm not even sure I'll be able to medically transition.
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