Gaslighting about the realities of "state-sponsored murder"
Theresa May has just semi-officially pronounced the Skripal case a Russian state-sponsored hit. No evidence was presented for this conclusion of course, but we are getting used to that now. Belief is the new evidence. And in this case we do seem to have belief in large quantities.
Russia now effectively is being called upon to prove its innocence by tomorrow (Tuesday) or face Theresa's wrath.
We'll see how that goes over.
Of course there's the immensely handy fact the "nerve agent" allegedly used is "Russian" too. Novichok no less, a Soviet-era toxin from the 1980s, described on Wikipedia as "the most deadly nerve toxin ever made."
Though it wasn't only produced in Russia, but in Uzbekistan.
And by the way the US has been "helping" Uzbekistan clean up its chemical weapons sites since 1991.
And of course Russia had destroyed all its chemical weapon stockpiles by 2017.
But the US still hasn't (see MoA link above).
Still, so, as far as the state machine is concerned the alleged use of Novichok about clinches it for Putin. He dunnit. Verdict pronounced, let's hurry on to the sentencing. What will it be? More sanctions? A Skripal Act to rival Magnitsky's? Moving UK troops closer to Russia's borders? Driving Russian money out of London? Messing with the World Cup?
While the UK establishment shoots its wad fantasising about all these glorious possibilities, let's take a quick reality check.
Russia has absolutely nothing to gain from initiating the poisoning of Skripal, and even less to gain from leaving a calling card made of Novichok.
This is so obviously true even spokespeople for the UK establishment admit it openly, for example Andrew Wood, former UK ambassador to Moscow, is quoted in the Guardian saying
it's very hard to see what profit they can get from this
Though of course this hasn't stopped the same people who admit this to be true also claiming to be absolutely sure Russia did it.
Absent sane motives they have had to invent insane ones instead. Russia are just crazy, bent on vengeance, spoiling for a fight. Their blatant and self-destructive action, says Wood:
advertises the fact that they are vindictive and dedicated to pursuing revenge.
Reliably deluded and fact-defying Luke Harding adds his own pulp spy-thriller spin:
The use of novichok in Salisbury not surprising but remarkable. Developed by Soviet Union in 70s and 80s, and more deadly than VX nerve agent. A brutal calling card that would inevitably be discovered. Conclusion: Putin and FSB wanted this row now
— Luke Harding (@lukeharding1968) March 12, 2018
You see? Russia must have done it (even though they had no motive), so they must be driven by crazy notions of revenge or wanting a "row" that defy self-interest.
That's logic.
The obvious consideration – if they had no motive maybe they didn't do it has no place in this mad little universe.
This is simply gaslighting.
Motive is a first consideration in solving any crime. Absence of motive is also a primary argument for innocence. Cui bono? is a legal as well as a rational question. But it's one the Western powers do not want anyone asking in this case.
Because the answer is obvious.
The timing of the alleged poisoning – the day before a prime mover in promoting UK Russophobia, Bill Browder, was due to testify at the Parliamentary Inquiry into alleged Russian "fake news", and two weeks before the Russian election – is enough of itself to make the UK and its security agencies prime suspects.
Will be testifying tomorrow at the British Parliament on Russia's use of fake news and propaganda at 10:30am U.K. time. Lots of examples from the Magnitsky case to educate lawmakers on Putin's modus operandi https://t.co/lsI9tMXLJ2
— Bill Browder (@Billbrowder) March 5, 2018
And who can deny this tragic event is being fully exploited by the state machine? In just the last three days the poisoning of these two people in still murky circumstances has been used to
add fresh weight to the push to have RT blocked in the UK
justify moves against Russian holdings in the UK
reinforce calls for implementation of new sanctions
increase UK defence spending
In contrast, what has Russia or Russia's narrative gained from this?
To bring a small amount of balance and sanity to the current situation we're going to be reminding readers of some of the mysterious and possibly politically motivated deaths that have occurred in the UK. Unlike the Skripal and Litvinenko cases the media never claimed any of them were "state-sponsored murder", because the only state they could possibly have been pinned on was our own.
Filed under: latest, Media Criticism, Russia, Skripal case
Tagged with: Andrew Wood, Bill Browder, Sergey Skripal, Skripal case, Yulia Skripal
Being the cynic I am all this brouhaha is all a bit to pat for me. An ex-Russian spy meets a mysterious death in a sleepy English town being apparently poisoned by some sort of nerve gas. This event which predictably comes with a hysterical crescendo immediatley prior to the Presidential elections in Russia as well as the football World Cup. Put them all into the mix and you get a virulent Russophobia and a maximum discomfiture for Russia.
Presumably when those ICBMs are flying the MSM will be satisfied.
Mar 13, 2018 10:43 PM
Reply to Francis Lee
Another motivation may be to prevent the construction of Nordstream 2, and potentially grab a market for US expensive LNG worth tens of billions. A basket of things are likely involved – Russian elections, World Cup, revenge for Russian actions in Syria/ Ukraine, revenge for supposed Russian rigging of US elections, Brexit result, Catalonia referendum, Italian/ German/ French/ Dutch/ Austrian/ Bulgarian elections etc etc etc Probably a case of trying to kill several birds with one stone.
I'm expecting another White Helmets gas attack Oscar extravaganza soon, complete with Bana Mk. II and Dusty Boy Mk. II, now that Washington's pet headchopping cannibal throatslitters are about to be overrun in E. Ghoutta. This may provide the pretext for a direct attack on Russian forces. Something similar seems on the cards in Ukraine. Britain may be about to up the ante with more sacrificial victims "assassinated by Putin's thugs." All this will probably be combined with other provocations that cannot be foreseen.
Oh, what a surprise, Rex Tillerson has decided to stick his neocon proboscis in.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/13/nerve-agent-attack-clearly-came-from-russia-says-us-rex-tillerson
So to recap – Russia undermined the US election, poisoned the good rebels and has now launched a dastardly chemical attack on British soil, at least this is what the Guardian would have you believe.
Are they doing it just to torment us, or is it best to go down a few more feet with the DIY air-raid shelter?
Jay Q
Mar 13, 2018 10:10 AM
The Guardian have reached a lower low than I thought possible, offering favourable publicity to the far-right in Ukraine!
Ukraine's National Militia: 'We're not neo-Nazis, we just want to make our country better'
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/13/ukraine-far-right-national-militia-takes-law-into-own-hands-neo-nazi-links
Reply to Jay Q
"The police in our country are ineffective, corrupt or drunk" – I couldn't work out if 'Zhenya' was talking about the Ukraine or Britain?
Thomas Peterson
I wouldn't say the article is favourable to them to be honest. A lot of references to Nazis and a condemnation from the Guardian's favourite Human Rights Watch.
Reply to Thomas Peterson
Good point. I chose the word favourable simply because of the lack of critique and raproach.
George Cornell
Harry, you may be pleased to learn Rex has been dumped by Oranguhair.
No, it's because Putin can't help it, he's just evil. "It's in his DNA."
Like Assad can't help it. Because he's an "evil dictator", and that's what evil dictators do.
The other thrust of this agenda: is the undeclared intention towards increased militarisation – not on a national, but an international level. As we are still an EU member state: we are involved in the Permanent Structured Cooperation (PESCO) – as the recent EU 28 European Foreign Affairs Council proved. I realise people are resistant to this idea: but it is happening. They are at the deployment stage: while the majority continue to remain unaware. The military are pushing for 2.5% GNI – only not for our national forces …for EU-NATO supra-societal integrated forces. This will become the inevitable consequence of the current cross-party collusional rampant xenophobia. The Skripals and others yet to come will no doubt become the justification for this.
https://eeas.europa.eu/headquarters/headquarters-Homepage/40897/remarks-hrvp-mogherini-press-conference-following-foreign-affairs-council-defence_en
Novichok can supposedly be made from 2 chemicals harmless in themselves and not subject to OPCW scrutiniy.
It can't be detected by NATO chemical detectors.
It's 8 times more toxic than VX,
No such thing exists or can exist. It's not chemically possible to make nerve gas from 2 harmless chemicals.
Just in case I will wash all of my clothes, since my chemical protective gear is -now I know- useless.
And I will start researching the possibility of Monty Python being locked somewhere, writing the whole thing.
I admit I'm grasping desperately for some optimism but perhaps the one who decided to let that Andrew Wood quote through (the quote highlighting lack of motive) was attempting to get some actual truth out to the readers – before being sacked or possibly whipped.
MichaelK
http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2018/03/13/russ-m13.html
There's some interesting information here and some appalling quotes from parliament yesterday, especially about banning RT, which shows how timely and useful this entire Skripal affair is for the UK government; and how cowed the Labour Party really is whenever national security or defence of the realm issues are raised politically, and that alone should make one wary of jumping to conclusions about the identity of the people responsible for the events in Salisbury. But of course, our 'free and independent' media, won't go anywhere near any of this. We're being groomed for war.
Manufacturing con _ _ _ _no, enemies.
"Vote for me, me, me. I'll save you from those evil Russians"
I'm certain, how I wonder?, that not a single journalist in the UK will label the Tory government's lurid spy-tale… an elaborate conspiracy theory; which, of course it is.
Listening to the BBC their chief North America correspondent, John Sopel, mentioned, with gravitas, that Rex Tillerson, the Secretary of State, had also condemned this Russian act of aggression and they were a source of destabilization in the world. Interestingly, Sopel then wondered aloud what rest of the White House thought. Did they agree with Tillerson? So here one sees them trying to use this episode to question and undermine Trump, implying that he's 'soft' on Russia because they've got something on him. That's the larger perspective.
At the same time, they steer clear of any mention of Skipal's connection to Christopher Steele who compiled the dodgy dossier on Trump's 'sex-trip' to Russia.
Also, it's actually getting easier to smear Russia in the UK media, now, compared to the Litvenenko affair, one doesn't even need to go through the long and expensive 'public enquiry' circus anymore. What this shows, I think, is just how tightly the leash is being held in relation to our 'free and independent' media. None of which bodes well for the future. We're being groomed for war with Russia.
Reply to MichaelK
Michael K: the "Tory government's lurid spy-tale… "? This is a cross-party collusional lurid spy-tale. Various Labour MPs have pushed the other Buzzfeed dodgy dossier – a "serious journalistic investigation" according to Abbott – into the "other 14 deaths" as though it were fact. The "Magnitsky Ammendment" being pushed by Corbyn et al precedes the "spy-tale". Labour are trying to make political capital out of this based on delusional lies, xenophobia, and collusion. Their underlying ethics are as empirically challenged as the Tories. I do not believe we are being prepared for war, beyond the undeclared ideo-cultural war we are already in: of which Labour are prime ideological movers (Why would Russia want to maintain an open dialogue based on "fairy tales"? As Putin said: we sort it out at home, then we'll talk. If Corbyn is serious about dialogue: first he has to challenge the lies …not parrot them.)
Reply to BigB
Well, I agree with you, up to a point. Labour, for decades, have always been perceived to have a great big weak spot… national security, also known as 'defence.' This is why, for decades, they've attempted to become more rabidly Tory than the Tories and thereby push the issue into the long grass. Labour can't beat the Tories on 'defence', unless they break with the entire Westminster/Washington consensus by challenging the very basis of the 'defence' argument, but that's an awfully big ask and would require a very different Labour leadership, with qualities they simply don't have… knowledge, vision, willpower, intellectual ability and language skills that are simply beyond them.
The level of absurdity of the West's State narratives have become absolutely "slap-stick" in nature. If the stakes were not so terribly and dangerously high, this nonsense would be laughable. The West's somber proclamations of – "the Russians did it" and the "Russia is aggressive" narratives are as convincing as Medieval Mother Church accusing "witches" of killing the neighbor's cow or rendering a local noble or priest impotent. It is just another updated version of nonsense propaganda designed to frighten the Western masses and used to maintain control by institutions which have lost all credibility with anyone who can think at all critically. Mercifully due to endless lies and violence both Church & crown over time eventually lost their credibility with most of us. Today we witness the West's State structures as they crumble under the weight of their own idiocy, lies, arrogance and violence. The only way for this theatre of the absurd to continue much longer is for Western populations to stubbornly remain mindless "true believers" oblivious to "reality" to the bitter end.
Reply to intergenerationaltrauma
Good and bad news for the conspiracy types. Here we have no other but a diplomatic and defense editor for the BBC telling us that he has sources which assert that the biochemical lab of the British army (6 miles away from Salisbury) obtained the Russian chemical precursors by clandestine means (not that you could, according to some, buy them in your off-licence round the corner, but that is another story).
Now, you wish there was a way to make that fact a possible/logical line of inquiry, but of course it is not. Because those precursors were obtained clandestinely for our safety alone (and you should feel ashamed for thinking otherwise). And because otherwise the BBC editor wouldn´t be speaking publicly like that, making us believe that they are just as biased as stupid, and that they live in a parallel universe where such connections are not obvious. But, I digress and, perhaps I am conspiracy theorising once more.
https://twitter.com/MarkUrban01/status/972782744366452741
Reply to M.
'Tracing constituent chemicals' is nonsense.
Chemicals arent just mixed to create nerve gas, they are reacted to create an entirely new molecule.
This is utter rubbish aimed at the ignorant.
Of course it is, which adds to the overall (sad yet) comical effect referred above.
An article here about this. Tracing it from the impurities of manufacture and a bit of isotope analysis.
https://cen.acs.org/articles/90/i6/Tracing-Threat.html
Reply to avenir
Impurities of manufacturing what though? The components or the nerve gas that is produced from the components?
Nerve agents like Sarin (or breakdown products) are detectable, possibly for up to 30 days
https://s3.amazonaws.com/PHR_other/PHR_Sarin_Fact_Sheet_04-13.pdf
"Nerve agents are extremely toxic compounds designed specifically to kill or incapacitate. Sarin and cyclosarin are organophosphates that permanently inhibit acetylcholinesterase. This results in an accumulation of acetycholine at the cholinergic synapses, causing continued stimulation of the affected organ. The toxic effects of poisoning depend largely on intensity of exposure. The effects range from miosis, or pinpoint pupils, and blurred vision at lower concentrations, to involuntary defecation, nausea, vomiting, muscular twitching, weakness and convulsions, and death at somewhat higher concentrations."
At least that's what MI6, sorry I meant Служба внешней разведки tell me.
Urban is a Neocon parrot, rabidly Russophobic, with a long history of shilling for more goodies for the military industrial complex.
rtj1211
Mark Urban is well known as MI6 so when he says 'I am told' he means 'this is the Party Line'.
Do not ascribe reliability to a BBC Job Title: ascribe loyalty to Establishment politics…….
It fits in with the pattern of a second Syrian war breaking out with Turkey, the US and their regional allies moving on Assad. The US will go it alone they warn today if the Security Council don't announce another cease fire to save the Gouta rebels. Turkey's bombing of sovereign territory goes unquestioned. Russia is already unsurprisingly wary of taking on such powerful foes for Assad so a furore of this sort makes it easier to sideline them when the ballon goes up. By remarkable coincidence the US attack on Syria might well take place just before the World Cup. Like the Sochi Olympics and the Ukrainian coup its supposed to be a good time to strike. If they could in some way disrupt the election then they'd seize the opportunity. Breakup of the Russian Federation is a major American policy objective. The Brits have done marvellously in obscuring the issue and are probably ready to support an attack on Assad. (Especially if they really want a half decent Trade Deal!)
Leslie Campbell
I was astonished at the disinformation and lack of any critical analysis of what has been reported over the last few days in the Parliamentary questions today. Corbyn asked if the local authorities had all the resources necessary to deal with a situation like this. He questioned the, only just announced, need to wash possessions. For this he was repeatedly called out for appeasement, party politics, siding with the enemy, undermining parliamentary unity.
I agree that the narrative has been lost in Syria. The Russian interference in US election and collusion is a dead horse. However the attention was about to be put on Christopher Steele who refused to testify in US. Pablo Miller, Steele and Orbit ( private security services) , lives in Salisbury. Skripal was still active. Was this an opportunity to silence Steeles source? Or to pretend that Skripal was his source. That would explain why daughter was targeted as well. Russian intelligence would never had released him.
And why make such a complete mess of it? If antidotes were available, as reported, Porton Down would have had to make the stuff to test the efficacy of any antidote. It reportedly kills 5-8 times faster than VX. Any journalist could rip this apart in a few hours.
Novichok does not even exist. It was made up by a defector telling tall tales.
lucdevincke
A nerve agent developped and made between 1970 and 1990 in the good old Soviet-Union. With the fall of the country I suppose some, if not all, former member states inherited stocks of the agent or at least knew how to produce it? The same for former Warschau Pact countries. I think in the first place at Ukraine. From those countries it can' t have been difficult for the CIA to ask for and get some samples of it or even to receive a bigger stock.
For me it is a false flag made up by Ukraine or the CIA. Don't forget the strange fact that those people survived the attack, had even time to go to a local restaurant for a lunch. That's a signal for me that the agent had especially been made lesser strong because the intention was not to kill in the first place but to create a false flag to blame Russia.
DavidKNZ
Twitter from Bill Browder: Will be testifying tomorrow at the British Parliament on Russia's use of fake news and propaganda at 10:30am U.K. time. Lots of examples from the Magnitsky case to educate lawmakers on Putin's modus operandi
For a detailed (>200 pages) account of William Browder's real agenda see:
https://dxczjjuegupb.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/TheKillingOfWilliamBrowder_PrintLayout_6x9-1.pdf
The work, by Alex Krainer, has been freely available on the net for months now,
and must have been drawn to the attention of UK MPS.
The fact that they are specifically selecting a purveyor of "False News" speaks
volumes for the "Outcome" they are orchestrating .
There are still descent people in the UK. But rare around Westminster
Reply to DavidKNZ
Dodgy dossier-land! The timing of all of this is too good. Thank goodness for this website which projects the essential other side of the story. This used to be something trusted papers like the erstwhile Guardian once did.
John Marks
But I bet parliament won't be allowed to see the film ("The Magnitsky Case"). The European Parliament weren't either.
Mikalina
Reply to John Marks
I'm in the process of sending the book to MPs. Whilst I am sure they will not read it, there is a chance that some of their workers (who could be 'normal') will.
Reply to Mikalina
State that its normally 20 British Pounds, But by special arrangement with the publisher will be available free for the next 2 days. Should do the trick 🙂
alaffcreator
On March 6, 2018 the Russian newspaper "Moskovskiy Komsomolets" published an article in which the "Skripal case" was commented on by the allegedly officer of the GRU.
The article is not too big, so i translated it (maybe will be useful):
Let's go in order, – begins the GRU officer (his name is not mentioned in the newspaper for obvious reasons). – Is there any reason to eliminate Sergei Skripal? He has long been of no interest to anyone.
If our people would be afraid that he would disclose something, they would find a way to eliminate him in prison and certainly would not exchanged him. British intelligence, immediately after Skripal was transfered to them in 2010, got all the testimony from him. He told the British what he knew and what he did not know (it was even more of what he did not know, because he did not work in the GRU since 1999). So it is a waste material for both sides (i.e. for UK & Russia).
Let's reason further. Then what could it be? The revenge of the Russian special services eight years after his exchange? Isn't it funny for you yourself? Moreover, quite a long time ago (I can not name the date, because the document is secret), at the state level in Russia it was decided not to chase traitors who had fled or were transferred abroad. And do not deal with their elimination. This is our state policy…
Veterans of the foreign intelligence service also point to some inconsistencies in the version of Russia's involvement in this incident. In particular, the fact that the stranger suffered. They say: this is not the handwriting of our special services. And how could you leave witnesses alive (Skripal's daughter, according to the British media, is in the hospital, and he himself seems did not die either)?
There is one important point about which very few people know.
If there is any serious event or international meeting, the Russian special services try to reduce their activity, maybe even to zero level. Why is this done? In order that in case if something goes wrong, to do not screw a big policy. And now notice: for many years on the eve of all state visits something happens. Often this is some sort of nonsense, usually unprovable and falsified. This is exactly the work of foreign special services.
Now we have presidential elections very soon, so it was absolutely expected that something like this would happen. What happened is beneficial only to them. But in the case of poisoning, they made a slip-up, cuz they worked too traditionally. Everyone who has studied history knows that the champions of poisoning are British. They masterfully poison for centuries, it's their firm style.
I think foreign intelligies used Skripal at the right time to create noise. Sorry for him. Most likely, he did not know about this production. The fact that he did not immediately die – a luck for him, of course. After all, I repeat, the British are well versed in poisons and doses. Most likely they wanted to stretch the "informational occasion" in time…
link – http://www.mk.ru/incident/2018/03/06/sotrudnik-gru-prokommentiroval-otravlenie-sergeya-skripalya.html
I feel as though I have stepped onto a set designed by Dali; with a script written by Breton; in a film made by Buñuel. The soundtrack loop is of the Pixies:
Got me a movie
Girlie so groovy
Don't know about you
But I am un chien andalusia
Wanna grow up to be
Be a debaser
I'm not really sure just how much more debased and surreal our Parliamentary reality could be? I'm not talking about the mythical 'newbie' novichok: or Treason May – I was expecting that; but there was not a single word of condemnation from anybody. Qui tacet consentire videtur (He who is silent appears to consent). Worse than assent: Corbyn used his reply to further push the Labour Magnitsky Agenda:
"But instead they're currently resisting Labour's amendments to the sanctions and anti-money laundering bill, which could introduce the so-called Magnitsky powers – so will the prime minister agree today to back those amendments to the sanctions and anti-money laundering bill?"
You've got to fear for the sanity of anyone who could not believe that half of Salisbury would have been contaminated if novichok was really used. Power corrupts, apparently in subtle ways. Like novichok: it affects perception first – with an inability to see, or hear, what is apparent before you. Then it affects cognition – of the facts; of the ability to logically perceive and critically assimilate. Only state-sanctioned resources inform the elite echo-chamber of the state -sanctioned mind. Unable to think for oneself; incapable of individual reason; unable to differentiate from the cross-party collusional groupthink; finally, it affects the ability to communicate in anything other than the verisimilitude of consent to the lies, the damn lies of the insidious dictatorship of the mind. Yes, there has been an egregious and indefensible attack on this country: and yes, there has been an pernicious 'nerve agent' let loose …though not among the commoners of Salisbury: but in Parliament. Shall we blame Russia for this? Or is the delusion homegrown?
Reply to Big B
JC and JD have gone over to the dark side.
What, RT? I thought that was banned! :-))
But BB, I really believed that if I hung on long enough, the cavalry would come riding over the hill…..
Brilliant article on hope.
https://orionmagazine.org/article/beyond-hope/
Ha-ha: that guy Derrick is a fucking Zen master. Hope is delusional: but try explaining that to the Westernised mind (he just did, kudos). Hope is the past masquerading as the future: it's all our previous assumptions projected forward. Thus, the blank canvas becomes loaded with past meaning: what appears revolutionary is in fact doctrinaire, submissive and already authoritarian. To give up on hope is to give up on self (as Derrick says "naked"): but this is not a communicable philosophical position. The equivalent binary logical position is "hopelessness": with all its negative connotation. This is why Derrida advocated against all heirarchical binary oppositions. We have to give up hope and hopelessness and just do it, without outside help, acting from the selfless moment …then we can actuate a future free of the philosophically burdened past. Brilliant: thank you.
If we shadows have offended,
Think but this, and all is mended,
That you have but slumber´d here
While these visions did appear.
And this weak and idle theme,
No more yielding but a dream…
A Midsummer Nights Dream, Wm Shakespeare
http://www.moonofalabama.org/2018/03/theresa-mays-45-minutes-claim.html#more
Reply to bevin
Brilliant link.
Uzbekistan-CIA-MI6-expendable Skripal?
alamaine
" – the Russian government lost control of the nerve agent and let it fall into the hands of others."
"Since its independence in 1991, Uzbekistan has been working with the government of the United States to dismantle and decontaminate the sites where the Novichok agents and other chemical weapons were tested and developed."
These statements do not exclude anyone but include many others, more than the one(s) claimed to be responsible. The "45 minutes claim" is appropriate considering that there is no proof of the specific person(s) who MAY (irony?) have effected the supposed attack. How many times will various governments cause their people to be embarrassed by making spurious claims without definitive and substantiated evidence?
kitt6
How on earth can May insinuate this toxin only comes out of Russia. is she stating that there are special chemicals only Russian scientists can make? Interestingly one of the key manufacturing sites for this toxin was Uzbekistan. Uzbekistan has been working with the US government to dismantle these sites since independence in 1991. Funny May never mentioned this.
Reply to kitt6
But another aspect is even more interesting/characteristic – a fact that T. May actually equalising Russia and USSR. Asserting that "Novichok" was made in USSR, why does she point on Russia? Does she know at all what was the USSR? Today's Russia – yes… BUT also: Georgia, Ukraine, Belarus, Latvia, Lithuania, Kazahstan, Uzbekistan, Armenia, Moldova & others… A LOT of today's countries. They ALL were a part of USSR, which means it is logical that ALL these countries could use "Novichok".
So what makes T. May think that if "Novichok" is a Soviet product then it is today's Russia who "used it"?
Looks like a banal incompetence, or (most likely) prejudices and intentional use of semantic/mental dirty tricks like "Soviet means today's Russian".
Reply to alaffcreator
I've actually seen neo-soviet written somewhere to describe Russia. Clever, huh.
Kim Jong Un's brother was assassinated recently using VX, which was developed at Porton Down.
That must mean the British are responsible for his murder.
The Syrian terror groups have killed people using sarin, which was developed in Germany.
That must mean the Germans are responsible for that.
Jerry Alatalo
Think for a minute of how a wild animal reacts when cornered, and perhaps then understand just how dangerous the world's situation is at the moment.
Reply to Jerry Alatalo
Wise words , Jerry. Our way of life is threatened, but not by external forces: from internal ones. The worm is in the core of the very apparatus of power: only, when will it turn?
Military grade? That is the adjective widely used to sell cars and flashlights in the US. In this context it is pretty much meaningless but sounds sinister. As if there was homemade craft Novichok. May's use of this term adds to the aura of scheming manipulation.
If a state was going to kill someone in this fashion, why on earth would one leave a trail of poisonous breadcrumbs leading straight back to the Kremlin? One would produce a poison with a western chemical 'fingerprint' surely, to divert attention away from Russia and cover ones tracks. That's what I'd do. But those Russians… dastardly evil, vicious and dripping venom from every greasy pore of their nasty bodies… they're too stupid for that! Maters of low cunning, but still, underneath it all… retards.
Apparently Putin wants to send a 'message' to Britain and the West, but at the same time deny everything, which kind of negates the whole point of the 'message.' Though a 'dictator' at home, seemingly he doesn't want the cowed Russian people to understand the 'message' either. Christ, I'm too old for this kind of bullshit. You can't make this up! On the other hand… that seems to be precisely what's happened. This entire narrative is fiction dreamed up by the UK's security services, who are masters of this kind of thing and the complicit and apparently endlessly credulous media go along with it all, with barely a murmur of dissent or questioning, despite the gaping holes in the tale.
"Novichok is reported to be 5–8 times more lethal than VX nerve agent and effects are rapid, usually within 30 seconds to 2 minutes."
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/neuroscience/novichok-agent
Here is a map of Market Place (in Salisbury) and the path Sergei and Yulia Skripal were alleged to have taken.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/footsteps-poisoned-russian-spy-daughter-12135812
At what point (in the preceding 30-120 seconds) did the the exposure occur, and why didn't either of them call an ambulance when they became simultaneously unwell?
If I had been poisoned by a deadly toxin I can't imagine strolling through Salisbury town centre until the build up of acetylcholine rendered nerve impulses useless.
Binra (@onemindinmany)
Fear of penalty to self, reputation or career arises from NOT complying and conforming – at least in public utterance. It has nothing to do with 'believing' the story so much as believing one's best interests lie in wearing the appropriate mask and if need be, demonstrating allegiance to the power in authority by then attacking of others who don't wear the mask. And so the emotionally driven mob tend to provide the volunteer support for their own subjection.
The mask demands constant reinforcement until and unless the need of it passes (if it is a diversion during a particular timing of other agenda) – or if the mask can be fitted and targeted at a new or recycled enemy.
My own feeling is that love of truth will not find the willingness to align in false witness even though there is risk in 'coming out'. But love of opinionated assertion in which to identify also seeks only the witnesses that provide the cover story of self justifying narrative for acts that would otherwise not find support.
Nothing I say will change anyone else, but it may be that those who are in the change recognize a resonance to their own desire for coherence in place of secrets and lies.
It is obvious to me that journalism is not required in the MSM – we get all this from their handlers. Governance is not required in political institutions…. etc
Secret,hidden or masked agenda is normal behaviour for anyone who seeks to get something by seeking manipulative advantage rather than through openly communicated settlements.
But to anyone not tuned into the mind-control signal, the lack of substance and outright lies appear grotesque and absurd. However, beneath such behaviours are secrets and lies of the same energetic patterning as that which they tend to evoke.
Reply to Binra (@onemindinmany)
You have accurately described the number twos in gang warfare: venal, vicious, fearful and ruthless.
Can all our MPs be so low?
Michael Leigh
Sadly to our universal shame, JOHN MARKS are even worse, and given the power and proven influence of ' fake news ' by the so-called free press, it is they the mass media from the BBC , Guardian, etc who pushed these low life's of parliamentary representation upon our national community.
And given the apparent seriousness of this allegedly Russian poisoning plot, may I pose the question, why did not the State lock-down Salisbury at least, if not the whole country to apprehend the culprit or culprits immediately ?
And by the way this question is for the press, as well as our State authorities ? ?
Reply to Michael Leigh
To be fair to the local authorities – who would have been duped as much as anyone: lock down a city centre for every pair of drunks on a Sunday afternoon? I suspect Glasgow would be on permanent lockdown! (I can say that: it's where I'm originally from.)
You would think airports would have been alerted for Russians leaving the country in a hurry. But we've heard nothing about any such efforts.
There HAS to be the development of a specific agent in order to correspondingly develop the antidotes. Sure, the Russians might have made the initial formulation but this has had to have been mimicked in order to be able to take countermeasures. Seems as though the only thing for which the Russians can be blamed is making the stuff to begin with. How can anyone know that an antidote will work if the targeted substance is not known AND possessed? Let's see … which nation's poison factory complex is close by? Could it be that the only ones being "gaslighted" are the proponents of the blame someone else narrative? https://www.niaid.nih.gov/research/chemical-countermeasures-program
Reply to Alamaine
…seems as though the only thing for which the Russians can be blamed is making the stuff to begin with…
I understand from other posters that novichuk (really?) was made by the USSR, not Russia – a well used piece of gas lighting from the MSM. Uzbekistan was mentioned.
Novichok doesnt exist. There is no such thing as a nerve agent 8 times more toxic than sarin which can be made from 2 chemicals harmless in themselves.
Glad others detect a whiff of rattus odoriferous. I surely mistrust the MSM and Vicki Nudleman Nuland Kagan more than I mistrust the less familiar Russians.
Jonj
I suspect larger agenda is…."prove" Russia uses chemical weapons….therefore any statement that Assad is innocent of using chemical weapons is worthless….eject Russia from UNSC …remove veto…Haley says today at UN that usa is ready and prepared to syrike at Assad…SAA…Syrian government……all this just as the world is becoming increasing cynical of these claims against Assad by western sponsored white helmets…rebels etc .. although evidence is they use chlorine gas etc…..so it can be viewed as a big cover up all this being proven…and that still continue to protect their own and totally demonise Rusdia for everything….repression of russian peoples…Putins secret billions…state sponsired terrorism breaking all the norms of international law etc etc
I heard a BBC journalist linking the shooting down of the Malaysian airliner over the Ukraine, by the Russians, as an example of how they work and how they deny it afterwards. In fact the Russians denying allegations, is twisted to show proof of their guilt! So, like with so much else, one has to prove ones innocence. The strength of the allegations are enough.
Of course, to be fair, it's now extremely difficult, not that it was likely, for a journalist to question the government's version of events, their narrative… when they've come out so strong in linking Russia to the events in Salisbury. To question any of it… is really difficult, because to do so would put ones career on the line. One would effectively be saying that one didn't fully trust the official government story and that they might be lying for base political motives, to perhaps divert attention from how hopeless and unpopular they are and control the news agenda for a few weeks in their favour. It would take a brave journalist to do that in the current political climate. One that was skeptical of the state itself and the idea that a democratically elected government would ever do such a thing.
But think of all the people they killed in Northern Ireland during the 'dirty war' over there, or the killing of the IRA operatives, gunned down in broad daylight in Gibraltar years ago; unarmed civilians. Or Bloody Sunday. The list goes on and on and I'll bet the farm that Luke Harding won't be producing that kind of list in the Guardian anytime soon!
"In fact the Russians denying allegations, is twisted to show proof of their guilt!"
It's the old witch hunt manoeuvre. In the old days they'd throw an accused witch into deep water. If she floated she would thereby reveal herself to be a witch and she'd be burned. If she sank she'd be innocent….and drowned. Either way she's dead.
The case with modern witch hunting is: if they admit the accusations then they have confessed to their crime. If they deny the accusations, the very denial proves their guilt. Either way they're guilty.
Brutally Remastered
I am very greatful to OffGuardian for providing an alternative, cogent and regular voice to that of the ever more absurd and dangerous MSM.
It is also a great distraction from Everything Else while giving the Government a boost for waving the flag. But bottom line it's licking America and its ambitions to dethrone Putin. British reaction to the Ukraine showed that.
Peter Kellow
Who says it was Novichok, that was used? Sounds as fake as a ten bob note.
Kaiama
Reply to Peter Kellow
The reason Novichok was identified is either:-
1 It WAS novichok
2 Novichok was developed in the USSR and could therefore be linked to the Russian Federation.
Curiously, it wasalso manufactured in Uzbekhistan where according the the internet, the US was "helping" to "get rid of" chemical weapons.
Reply to Kaiama
Very interesting, Kaiama, thanks for that. This is from Radio Free Europe, 1999:
Prague, 19 August 1999 (RFE/RL) — In June 1997, the United States and Uzbekistan signed an agreement to cooperate on the destruction of nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons Tashkent inherited after the breakup of the Soviet Union.
Last May, the U.S. and Uzbekistan negotiated specific terms for the cleanup of the Chemical Research Institute in Nukus, in Uzbekistan
Lieutenant-Colonel Ike Skelton from the U.S. Pentagon spoke to RFE/RL about the mission:
"The purpose of the DOD team visiting the former Chemical Research Institute in Nukus is to conduct a technical and engineering survey to define the requirements for dismantling the chemical weapons unique capabilities present in this facility.
And this from Salon, 2013.
In 1992, Dr. Kanatjan Alibekov, a biologist from the Soviet Union, boarded a flight in Almaty, then Kazakhstan's capital, for New York. When Dr. Alibekov—now known as Ken Alibek—sat down with the CIA, he had a terrifying secret to reveal: that bio weapons program the Soviet Union stopped in the 1980's hadn't actually stopped at all
Today, biologists who worked in the former Soviet Union—like those who responded to a case of the plague across the border in Kyrgyzstan this week—are likely to brush Alibek's fears aside. But they'll also tell you that the fall of the Soviet Union devastated their profession, leaving some once prominent scientists in places like Almaty scrambling for new work. That sense of desperation, underlined by Alibek's defection to the US, has helped pump hundreds of millions of dollars into a Pentagon program to secure not just nuclear materials but chemical and biological ones, in a process by which Washington became, in essence, their highest bidder.
https://www.salon.com/2013/08/29/the_us_is_building_a_bioweapons_lab_in_kazakhstan_newscred/
Did you get all this from Wiki? Nowhere is novichok mentioned as a agent being dealt with in USSR or Uzbekistan or Kazakstan. Yes, there were programmes to deal with chemical weapons (Radio Free Europe? – reliable source).
I fear we are beginning to regurgitate info from unreliable sites.
From Wiki:
"One of the key manufacturing sites was the Soviet State Scientific Research Institute for Organic Chemistry and Technology (GosNIIOKhT) in Nukus, Uzbekistan"
this is the RFERL link, my apologies.
https://www.rferl.org/a/1091987.html
Treason May – around 17:25 today:
*"It is now clear that Mr Skripal and his daughter were poisoned with a military-grade nerve agent of a type developed by Russia.
This is part of a group of nerve agents known as 'Novichok'.
Based on the positive identification of this chemical agent by world-leading experts at the Defence Science and Technology Laboratory at Porton Down; our knowledge that Russia has previously produced this agent and would still be capable of doing so; Russia's record of conducting state-sponsored assassinations; and our assessment that Russia views some defectors as legitimate targets for assassinations; the Government has concluded that it is highly likely that Russia was responsible for the act against Sergei and Yulia Skripal."*
Yep, we're being prepared for war.
Next will be British troops sent to Estonia or Moldavia . . .