Ingram, Dobbins, Edwards & Hill: Outlook for Ravens RBs
By Faust,
Ray Rice wants more touches in Ravens' passing game
By Kevin Patra NFL.com
After his miraculous fourth-and-29 catch and scamper last year, Baltimore Ravens running back Ray Rice would like to see a few more chances for another "Hey diddle diddle."
"Now that guys know that I'm a threat out of the backfield, I got to use my hands a little more," Rice told the Baltimore Sun on Sunday. "I get pushed a lot coming out of the backfield, and that's a sign of respect, but I can get my hands and get out on pass routes and continue to get open for Joe Flacco."
Since he entered the NFL in 2008, Rice leads running backs in receptions with 311 -- 17 more than New Orleans Saints back Darren Sproles.
The 5-foot-8, 212-pound Rice is a dangerous threat out of the backfield, as he showed on the game-saving, perhaps Super Bowl-saving, fourth-and-29 catch-and-run. His comments also might have been made with the knowledge that second-year pro Bernard Pierce likely will continue to syphon off some of his carries.
Pierce isn't the same receiving threat as Rice, which will keep the diminutive vet on the field for third downs, where he has 91 catches and 863 yards for his career.
The Ravens' receiving corps has question marks after Anquan Boldin was traded to the San Francisco 49ers.
Rice is no dummy. If his carries are going to be diminished, he wants to make up for that production by taking someone else's receptions.
Follow Kevin Patra on Twitter @kpatra.
Edited May 20, 2020 by Faust
SameSongNDance 26 posts
cstu 23 posts
cloppbeast 18 posts
Best quote from this article Forsett managed 11 yards on five carries in one forgettable game. Buck Allen has nearly as many yards receiving (19) as he does rushing (20). Terrance West has scored
I'm going to assume JK gets some good burn this week with Lamar not being able to practice for a while. The passing game always needs more practice reps than the run game.
jtd13
I thought Hill had a nice audition yesterday. I added him in a couple deeper leagues, mostly in hopes of an off-season trade. He's 2 years from free agency though, so if he's not traded I probably won
Run It Up 916
Run It Up
He should, sounds dumb because they won the superbowl, but as a team they would have been more successful if they looked up Rice more often.
How Ray Rice will be utilized this year is something to monitor, as it sounds like they are planning on Pierce taking on more of the carries. If Rice can offset that with an increased focus in the passing game, which seems very likely with the departure of Boldin and the lack of receiving options added so far in free agency and from the draft, then everything will be fine for those who have Rice on their rosters.
Rotoworld:
The Ravens' official website believes a "strong showing" from Bernard Pierce this summer could balance out the distribution of carries between he and Ray Rice.
Rice is clearly the No. 1 running back, but he's going to get "pushed" by Pierce this season. Pierce toted the rock 108 times as a rookie, compared to 257 carries for Rice. The gap is expected to narrow as Pierce enters his second season. It helps that both backs have different running styles, allowing OC Jim Caldwell to throw different looks at opposing defenses. Pierce is arguably the top backup running back to own in fantasy. His increasing role knocks Rice out of consideration as a top 5-10 fantasy pick.
Related: Ray Rice
Source: baltimoreravens.com
Ray Rice said he has no problem ceding some touches to Bernard Pierce this season.
Rice is just 26 years old and hasn't missed a game since 2008, but he has piled up 1,527 touches over his five NFL seasons. A timeshare could extend his career. "Bernard's a great backup, and he's a great runner. ... Going into our game plan, it's hard to prepare for, you know, two guys that can come at you, rather than one," Rice said. Pierce was extremely impressive as a rookie, averaging 4.9 YPC on 108 totes during the regular season. During the Ravens' four postseason wins, he received 31.7 percent of the running back carries. We're expecting a similar kind of split right out of the gate this season, capping Rice's projected rushes around 250.
Related: Bernard Pierce
Ray Rice: I'm not bothered by Bernard Pierce's carries
Ravens running back Ray Rice isn't used to sharing carries, but the presence of Bernard Pierce made that a reality during Baltimore's run to Super Bowl XLVII.
As a rookie, Pierce gave the ground game a jolt down the stretch. The Ravens' website believes a strong training camp will only further "balance out that distribution" between Pierce and Rice in 2013. Rice said he can live with that.
"Sharing touches aren't something that bother me because I know, when it comes down to crucial situations, I'll be in the game," Rice told "NFL AM" on Tuesday. "There's not one running back that takes it all. There's a few -- Adrian Peterson and a few other guys -- but Bernard's a great backup, and he's a great runner."
Rice acknowledged Pierce brings "a different skill set," saying, "We're totally different backs. ... Going into our game plan, it's hard to prepare for, you know, two guys that can come at you, rather than one."
Pierce carried the ball just 30 times during the first half of 2012, but that figure jumped to 78 attempts over his final eight contests, including 14 carries for 123 yards in Week 16 and another 89 yards on 22 attempts in the season finale. In the playoffs, the Ravens leaned on Pierce's slashing, tackle-shedding style for another 202 yards off 39 attempts over four games.
The trend is clear. Pierce has earned Baltimore's trust and should see plenty of work in Year 2, whether Rice is happy about it or not.
eefflrat 4
eefflrat
I'm trying to figure out why you need anyone else to comment in this thread. LOL
I was hoping to spur some debate and opinions from the Shark Pool on what the split on touches will look like between Ray Rice & Bernard Pierce, and perhaps the value debate as their respective ADP positions change over the next 8-10 weeks.
amicsta 36
amicsta
Perhaps I'm in the minority with this, but I am not worried one bit about Ray Rice's touches or production. If you look at the Ravens offense once Jim Caldwell took over you will notice 2 things: 1) Increased offensive tempo
2) A committment to the ground game
The rushing of the football gets overlooked because Flacco was the one putting up gaudy numbers, but from a usage standpoint, I would expect Baltimore to run MORE than they did last year when we consider that they will probably run more offensive plays and will run a higher percentage of those plays. With that said, here are my current projections for both backs:
Rice: 312/1373/8 rushing 66/529/1 receiving (Rice is still an elite option out of the backfield imo)
Pierce: 192/922/4 rushing 8/64/0 receiving
Yes, I am aware that the total rushes is 504, which works out to 31.5 per game between the two backs, but I would like to reiterate that the pace at which the Ravens will play will allow this to happen. Considering the loss of Anquan Boldin, I would expect more plays out of 2 TE sets and, consequently, more runs. Even if I am a tad high on the total number of attempts, I don't think that number could drop below 460 or so. Even if all of those totes were lost at Rice's expense, were talking about a 1700 yard player (total) who should score 8-10 total TDs. Sounds like a RB1 to me.
Gottabesweet 960
Gottabesweet
Location:New Era Stadium
Interests:Buffalo Sports.
Those of us with Ray Rice in dynasty and don't have Pierce, are you trying to acquire? If so at what rookie pick cost or other pieces would you trade?
On the flip side, How far down the rankings would you go to sell off Rice with this news?
Cookiemonster 239
Location:N. Idaho
Actually, I am selling Rice wherever I can. I think the combination of the defense losing some big players, Flacco's maturity, addition of Pierce and loss of a fantastic FB leads to decreased stats. He still pulls in top 12 dynasty value, and I think he starts to slip to the top 15, then 20. He has had a lot of tough yards and has been very resilient, but (see MJD) it can't last forever. As a guy that doesn't have elite physical traits, I don't think he ages well either. In dynasty, it's time to sell. In redraft he is a safe pick but may be overdrafted by 5-10 spots.
HurryUpSundays 18
HurryUpSundays
There will be some lucky owners getting Rice mid to late in round one. He is still in the prime of his career and has shown zero implications of slowing down. Pierce is clearly in line for touches but, barring injury, I just don't see Ray's numbers falling all that much. Especially considering the potential that he will be a larger part of the passing game.
Underutilized and still racked up 1,800 yards last season.
Not a Rice owner, but wouldn't at all be mad if I got him in the second half of the first round.
Zdravko 56
Yes, most definitely. An inury to Ray Rice likely kills my season without the handcuff. Not cheap to acquire, but worth it. Plus the quality of production you will get from Pierce in case of injury allows you to free roster space and carry depth for only one RB spot. More room for high-upside bets.
Don't think any of this is Rice/Pierce stuff is news, honestly. Most people here were guessing a 60-40 or 67-33 split already in January. Rice's current ADP is artifically buttressed for now by brand name and good memories, but will start sinking as more generic owners begin to read up on the situation. Right now, I would hesitate to take him as top-5 RB in redraft and see him closer to the top-10 RB in dynasty. Definitely time to sell if you can get top dollar.
I agree, dynasty wise not many backs below him ranking wise I'd sell him for though. I think over- paying for Pierce might be the move here. Even if he leaves to be a starter and Rice declines a bit.
Trading straight up for one RB would be hard to pull off. Maybe you can get Spiller or McCoy from a somewhat uninformed owner. Personally, I'd try the Peterson, Richardson and Doug Martin owners to see if I can offload Rice in a package. Alternatively, target a top-3 WR, maybe Jimmy Graham.
Agree that buying Pierce is probably the wisest approach, even at a premium. But what is a fair price? I've seen him go for an expected 2014 mid-first rounder.
See, to me the Spiller thing makes little sense. He's basically the same age, on a worse team and still isn't even the unquestioned starter behind Fred Jax. Rice hasn't missed any time. I'll take Rice every time.
FF Ninja 2,842
FF Ninja
Why does everyone overlook the fact that Cam Cameron is gone? Throwing to running backs was Cam Cameron's thing. I don't know if any OC threw to the halfback more than him. When he was fired, it became inevitable that Rice's receptions were going to drop the next year. Historically, Caldwell does not utilize the RB in the receiving game that much. He doesn't ignore the position like Arians, but I think the Ravens as a team will only see 70 RB receptions next year. 80 would be a career high for Caldwell.
I'd take Spiller straight up. Spiller's trajectory seems up for dynasty purposes; Rice's - down. Of course, this might change in a jiffy, but my guess is 12 months from now Spiller's value will be higher and Rice's - lower. For redraft, yeah, I agree, it's debatable who is worth more.
Small post-Cameron sample size but supports FF Ninja's claim. Cameron was fired after week 14. Rice and Pierce got 5.8 targets / game before and 3.5 afterwards, excluding the meaningless Week 17. Pass-run ratio is not the explanation: Rice / Pierce got 17% of QB attempts before Week 15, only 10% after.
I still think rice can post 60+ catches simply because the ravens dont have many better ball catchers than him. I agree that the OC change is huge (said it before), but rice is still their 3rd best receiving option. I wouldnt be surprised if out of spread sets rice worked the slot some. Kinda just feel like a guy who has done so well and has flaccos trust will find a way to get his.
Sleeper 43 4
Sleeper 43
Location:VA.
Interests:www.Lucky-Bet.site => Bet on Sports
Recently gave up the 1.7 in a Dynasty Rookie Draft for Pierce. Could suck if they split down the middle for a couple seasons effectively negating each other from being viable RB1 material..
Seems fair. Looking at the guys that usually go around 1.07 (Hopkins, Hunter, Eifert), Pierce is probably a lower floor, but much higher upside pick.
Despite Bernard Pierce's impressive rookie year, the Baltimore Sun states the Ravens "aren't planning to dramatically alter" the distribution of carries between Pierce and Ray Rice.
"Rice remains entrenched as the feature back," writes beat reporter Aaron Wilson. As expected. Wilson does concede Pierce's "workload is expected to increase," likely rising from about seven touches a game into the 10-14 range, on average. Rice remains a strong bet to flirt with 300 all-purpose touches and finish as a top 10-12 fantasy running back. With diminishing upside in more of a rotation, however, Rice is just no longer a shoo-in first-round pick.
Source: Baltimore Sun
Camp Confidential: Baltimore Ravens
Let's not write off Ray Rice too quickly. There's been a clamoring in the Ravens' fan base for backup running back Bernard Pierce to get more carries because he had a stronger finish to last season than Rice. While the Ravens are wise not to overload Rice, he's still the best playmaker at running back. Look at fourth-and-29 in San Diego if you need a reminder. Pierce has shown the ability to get yards on defenses after the Ravens have worn them down. He's not in the same league as Rice yet.
ESPN's Chris Mortensen reported on NFL Insiders Wednesday the Ravens are considering "shifting" Ray Rice out to wide receiver in some packages to help replace Dennis Pitta's production.
"They love Bernard Pierce," Mort emphasized. "There's some thought of shifting Ray Rice out to receiver" in certain groupings. Rice isn't changing positions, but it's a wrinkle OC Jim Caldwell needs to explore due to Baltimore's sudden lack of short to intermediate receiving options. Rice would likely play slot receiver as opposed to outside. Pierce's snaps are going to rise significantly.
Shutout 2,013
Shutout
Yes. We call this Denial in technical terms.
I think it will be difficult for Rice to be a top 10 RB from here on out.
Reasons:
1) The Ravens love Pierce and clearly want to use both backs.
2) The Ravens are not going to be able to maintain long drives like they have before. They simply are not as good on wither side of the ball due to their losses of key players.
FantasyTrader 34
FantasyTrader
Location:Colorado
I'm in denial as well. Many of the recent reports I've read have the Ravens defense looking even stronger than last year. The players they lost were no longer the impact they were in their prime. At worst, it looks like a wash - so there's no real evidence to suggest Baltimore's D won't keep the running game relevant in the 4th Qtr more often than not. I think Rice is being written off entirely too soon.
~Dynasty owner of both Rice & Pierce.
MAC_32 12,038
MAC_32
Given the lack of weapons outside, I don't think there will be any negative impact to Rice's touches. Pierce may get more, but they won't be at the expense of Rice. I think Rice is under valued in round 1 because unlike other 1st round RB's he does not have durability questions and he has a high quality handcuff that can be relatively affordably acquired.
I'll take my risks later, Rice is as rock solid as it gets in round 1.
I think Rice could be in for a top 3 year regardless of what Pierce gets. He is going to be a huge cog in the offense and could eclipse 70 catches.
I think his upside is top 3 his floor is top 8. Safest pick in the first round imo ridiculous that he is slipping almost to the 2nd.
mr roboto 8,546
mr roboto
Interests:Dots (especially Blue and Orange) and Swedish Fish
Safer than AP?
Posted August 8, 2013 (edited)
Yes. The only player I think is safer is megatron. I would still take a few backs over Rice not the least of which is Peterson.
Edited August 8, 2013 by Run It Up
bagger 3,362
Location:Work. Static.
Rice is still my #1 ranked RB and at 1.06 am thrilled that I will likely get him.
Lol at out of the top 10 RB category.
AP scares me with how much work he got last year and will likely get this year in terms of injury.
NattyDread 3
As a long time Rice owner, I've really come to appreciate his consistency and dual threat skills. But this year, my thinking is more in line with amicsta. The biggest issue I'm having is 2): how are the Ravens going to threaten opposing defenses? Torrey Smith is talented, but there's little evidence to suggest he can become significantly more than a deep threat. Without both Boldin and Pitta, the Ravens really have nobody to concern defenses for intermediate routes, making it easy to simply double Smith every time and play 8 men in the box. I'm seeing a lot of 16-13 type games for the Ravens this year.
Adding to the risk is that the Ravens have zero margin for further offensive injuries. They already will be starting backup caliber players at both TE and WR2. Any injury to Smith, significant or nagging, and this offense will go in the toilet.
Now it's not like the Ravens are alone in terms of the lack of a threatening passing game. Similar situations with top backs can be found in Minnesota, Philly, and Buffalo. But these cases include neither a slate of strong opposing defenses in their divisions, nor serious threats to goal line carries and overall touches from a second back, like posed by Bernard Pierce. I love Rice's talents, but I just don't see how he overcomes these hurdles enough to reach the mid-RB1 numbers for which he's being drafted at.
Help me out here -- where is my thinking flawed?
matttyl 2,689
matttyl
70+ receptions goes a long way to offset a few goal line TDs that Pierce will steal. I see the carries being split around 60-65% / 40-35% (Pierce will get more than a third, but less than half). After that Rice will get 80-90% of the receptions between the pair (which could be 80+ pretty easily). 16-24 total TDs between the pair (1-1.5 TDs per game for the pair of them - I mean who else is there to get them?), with Rice getting 2/3rds of those.....
1,000ish on the ground
70ish for 750-800 through the air.
10-16 total TDs for Rice
It's 2009 all over again with a few less rushing yards, and a few more overall TDs
Ravens could solve 2 issues by playing Rice and Pierce together
Running backs shared the field for one snap in the Super Bowl
By Matt Vensel
Throughout the 2012 season, Ray Rice and Bernard Pierce took turns tearing through defenses. But in the second quarter of the Super Bowl, the Ravens sent the Pro Bowl running back and his rookie understudy onto the field together for the first time all season.
Rice lined up behind Pierce, who was playing the role of fullback. But soon Rice motioned out of the backfield to become a wide-out on the right side of the field. After the snap, quarterback Joe Flacco handed the ball to Pierce, who rumbled around left end and out of bounds.
The first-down play went for an innocuous 5-yard gain, but it gave a glimpse of a potential answer to two of the biggest question marks for the Ravens offense.
The Ravens are looking to replace a pair of playmakers after the offseason trade of wide receiver Anquan Boldin and the season-ending hip injury suffered by tight end Dennis Pitta last month. They are also trying to figure out how to divvy up the snaps between Rice and Pierce, a backfield tandem that combined to rush for 1,675 yards and 10 touchdowns last season.
So why not put them on the field at the same time?
"Obviously, this is a team now that is trying to figure out what their weapons will be," said Greg Cosell, an NFL analyst and a senior producer for NFL Films. "I don't know what they're doing, but I think it makes conceptual sense."
To pull it off, they need special, versatile athletes. The Ravens feel they have them in Rice and Pierce.
"There's a number of different things you could do with them," offensive coordinator Jim Caldwell said Monday. "That's the great thing about this game. It takes some creativity. But you do have to put them in the position where they do what they do best. Those guys have carried the ball extremely well, but they can also catch the ball, so you have to use their talents."
Still, in today's NFL, it is uncommon to see two featured running backs on the field at the same time.
The New Orleans Saints are a team that sometimes does it. They trotted out dual threat Darren Sproles and another running back on 67 snaps last season, according to Pro Football Focus. Sproles was the team's movable chess piece, and he caught 75 passes for 667 yards and seven touchdowns, though he carried the ball just 48 times for 244 yards.
"I can do that," Rice said. "I can play that [sproles] role, but I still like lining up eight yards deep."
Other teams utilized two running backs together more sparingly. The Buffalo Bills had 24 plays in 2012 when they used C.J. Spiller and Fred Jackson together. And teams such as the Carolina Panthers and San Francisco 49ers used two running backs on only a handful of plays.
"Nothing is new in the NFL, so it's been done," Cosell said.
Vince Lombardi's Green Bay Packers were the class of the NFL in the early 1960s with a pair of Hall-of-Famers, Paul Hornung and Jim Taylor, sharing the backfield. Larry Csonka and Mercury Morris both rushed for 1,000 yards for Don Shula's Miami Dolphins when they went a perfect 17-0 in 1972. And Bill Walsh sometimes utilized two backs to feature the pass-catching abilities of Roger Craig when his San Francisco 49ers won four Super Bowl titles during the 1980s.
Edited August 15, 2013 by Faust
Leonidas 108
I won't argue with somebody who says Rice is the second safest pick in the first round, behind Megatron.
I personally don't have him in the top 3, but after the elite 4 most people have at the top (Peterson, Martin, Charles, and Foster), I have Rice 5th on my board. But frankly, I wouldn't mind taking him 3rd, either. I got him 10th in a Yahoo money draft waaay back on June 28 and am still very happy about that.
Thinking I may have pulled the trigger on him too soon. Defense looks as good as it was, and maybe even better. Leach came back. Pitta down shifts some receptions back to the RB. Rice should be in the discussion for top 5 again this year. Wish I could reneg on those trades I made a month ago.
Who thinks Leach is a bad FB? Really? Hes the best FB in the league and is an amazing fit for the Ravens.
donkshow 30
donkshow
With no TE or WR2, I feel Rice will be as beastly as ever and Pierce just gets bumped up. No reason Rice's value goes down..
VA703 924
VA703
Location:Wash DC
Is pierce worth more than a handcuff
Edited August 21, 2013 by VA703
John Harbaugh: Baltimore Ravens must run ball better
Ray Rice rushed 12 times for 36 yards and a touchdown in Baltimore's Week 1 loss to the Broncos, adding eight catches for 35 yards.
Rice had little room to operate, especially after the Ravens lost RT Michael Oher, throwing the entire offense into chaos. Rice drew 11 targets in the passing game, but the vast majority of them came within 2-3 yards of the line of scrimmage, and in heavy traffic. They were pure dump-offs from Joe Flacco. The good news is, the Ravens are clearly serious about upping Rice's 61 catches from a season ago. There was nothing alarming about Rice's performance this evening. He remains an every-week RB1.
Bernard Pierce rushed nine times for just 22 yards in Baltimore's Week 1 loss to the Broncos.
Pierce failed to corral his lone target in the passing game. Pierce exploded up the left hash for 14 yards on his first touch, but was stopped for two yards or fewer on five of his next eight carries. It was more of a case of the Broncos' run defense coming to play than anything else. Pierce is still one of the better handcuffs in all of fantasy football.
I asked this question in the game thread, but no answer. Does it seem like the ravens never run stretch plays, to the outside, or that the RBs never seem to bounce anything outside? It just felt so old school on Thursday night. Everything was off tackle.
az_prof 509
az_prof
I don't think they have run stretch plays or outside runs much in recent years. It just isn't part of their offensive strategy. Maybe they don't have the type of OL who van get outside in front of the back?
With Ray Rice (hip) listed as doubtful for Week 3 against the Texans, Bernard Pierce is expected to make his first career start.
We've been impressed with Pierce through 22 NFL games, including January's playoffs. A link to Evan Silva's offseason tape review of Pierce is accessible at the link below. A solid RB2 option versus an above-average Texans run defense, Pierce should push for 20 carries and has decent hands as a receiver.
Source: 2nd-year RBs: Bernard Pierce
Ray Rice (hip) participated in Ravens practice for the second straight day Thursday.
Rice was officially listed as "limited," as he was on Wednesday. Per NFL.com's Albert Breer, the Ravens don't view Rice's injury as serious, and believe "pain tolerance is the key." We never like when teams put the injury onus on the player, but that's what Baltimore is doing with its heretofore durable back. Even with an uncertain workload, Rice would be an RB1 against the Bills' battered run defense.
Source: Albert Breer on Twitter
Ray Rice (hip) will practice again on Friday.
Rice has practiced on a limited basis all week. The Ravens don't consider his hip injury serious, and he expects to play in Sunday's game. If active, Rice will be an RB1 against the Bills' struggling run defense.
Source: Aaron Wilson on Twitter
Sep 27 - 12:02 PM
ebsteelers 48
ebsteelers
worked out well for the rice owners, only missing a game vs. a tough run defense..
kd1 20
didn't realize limited practice all week means he's gonna get jammed in and get a full workload and have a monster game sunday.