Pro Football Focus Grades
michael89156
Sep. 22, 2015 at 7:01 am
ProFootballFocus.com Sept 21, 2015Here are the top takeaways and the highest graded players from the New Orleans-Tampa Bay game:New Orleans Saints– Drew Brees (-3.1) graded under (-1.0) for just the fifth time in the last three seasons. His 68.4 accuracy percentage was his lowest since the Saints' divisional playoff game back in 2013. The Buccaneers spent all game long dropping seven guys into coverage—they only blitzed once all game—and Brees was unable to pick them apart.– LT Terron Armstead followed up a strong Week 1 showing (+2.8 with another good game against Tampa Bay. His +3.1 grade on Sunday was the fifth-best among OTs this week, and his +2.4 pass blocking grade was the second-highest.– The entire starting secondary really struggled on Sunday. As a group, they compiled a -7.7 grade; CB Delvin Breaux led the group with a -1.4. Brandon Browner had a particularly rough game, as his -2.9 grade ranked him 79th among 84 cornerbacks in Week 2. Browner racked up three penalties against Tampa Bay, including a 40-yard pass interference penalty that set up the Bucs' second touchdown.Top performers:LT Terron Armstead (+3.1)DT Kevin Williams (+2.6)WR Marques Colston (+1.6)DE Akiem Hicks (+1.5)DE Cameron Jordan (+1.3)Tampa Bay Buccaneers– Jameis Winston bounced back from a disastrous week one debut (-9.3) with a positive game in New Orleans; his +3.1 overall grade this week ranked him seventh among all Week 2 QBs. Winston was wildly inaccurate in week one (his 55.2 percent accuracy percentage was dead last), but he improved upon that greatly in Week 2 with a 71.4 percent mark.– LT Donovan Smith followed up a poor Week 1 performance (-3.1) with an even worse showing in week two. His -4.9 overall grade ranked him 54th among 62 OTs this week; he was particularly bad as a run blocker, where his -4.7 grade ranked 60th.– CB Johnthan Banks had a great game on Sunday. His +2.8 overall grade was the second-highest among cornerbacks, and he played well both in coverage (+1.5) and against the run (+1.2). Banks was thrown at just twice, allowing only one catch, where he made a great play to keep Willie Snead out of the end zone on a two-point conversion attempt.Top performers:QB Jameis Winston (+3.1)CB Johnathan Banks (+2.8FS Chris Conte (+2.2)HB Charles Sims (+2.0)DT Gerald McCoy (+1.6)SS Bradley McDougald (+1.6)
Sep. 22, 2015 at 11:20 am
Didn't realize Smith played that bad. Cam Jordan is an all around DE though so he wasn't going to have his way. Next week is vs Clowney and I'm just going to hope for the best. As for Banks, good to see him with good coverage. I forgot which WR he was shadowing but he did a good job on.
Didn't realize Smith played that bad. Cam Jordan is an all around DE though so he wasn't going to have his way. Next week is vs Clowney and I'm just going to hope for the best. As for Banks, good to see him with good coverage. I forgot which WR he was shadowing but he did a good job on.
He didn't. That's the problem with PFF. Who is grading this? Do they know what they're looking at? Jordan beat him on one play for sure but I thought for the most part he did okay. Jordan is a hell of a player.
I thought that as well. PFF at times can be hit or miss with their grading. But they do get paid by the NFL to track these type of things.
I always take these grades with a grain of salt, BUT they are consistent within themselves week to week. I don't think Smith had a very good game, not even an average ("0") game - so I'd agree with the 'score'.Jordan IS a handful... I wanted him over Clayborn back in the day.
I'd be curious to see Kenyatta Walker's grades his rookie year. You'd think Smith was playing like that by these grades. I remember Walker being visibly bad even to the untrained eye. I don't see Smith like that at all.
I always thought it was a private company. Interesting that it's backed by the NFL.
Link? I would love to see proof to this. I keep hearing posters make similar claims but never see any proof.
The owner spoke on this on a vlog.
Smith received a poor grade due to the false start penalties more so than sack surrendered. Run blocking is also a factor. It doesn't mean he is a bad player but he is a rookie LT with a steep learning curve like a rookie QB and a rookie MIKE LB.Three important positions with steep learning curves.
I didn't think Smith played all that good but I didn't think he was as terrible as PFF has graded him. I do think Marpet had a good game though.
Smith received a poor grade due to the false start penalties more so than sack surrendered. Run blocking is also a factor. It doesn't mean he is a bad player but he is a rookie LT with a steep learning curve like a rookie QB and a rookie MIKE LB.Three important positions with steep learning curves.
That makes much more sense. If you solely looked at PFF you would think he is getting beat like a drum. That's the problem with just looking at stats (PFF or any) out of context. The areas that Smith is not performing well are almost expected for a rookie. I'm not worried about Smith yet and in fact encouraged that he may be the LT for years to come.
I'm encouraged as well. Smith has all the physical attributes and a seemingly good head on his shoulders.
I don't have a link, but have always heard on radio and other places that there are some teams that subscribe to the service for the stats. While others believe they aren't worth anything.Seems to be that way with media as well, some believe in the stats and others think it's not a good service.
I have heard that yes. But nothing special, just a regular membership subscription like the average Joe. And the stats can certainly be used to help ID trends or areas of concern or even used in negotiations. The agent of the Saints OT would show them to his GM to help justify a pay raise while the Bucs might use Smith's to justify no pay raise. But I highly doubt a team makes any decision based solely on this product. Also, the comment made was the NFL uses their services. I have not seen anywhere where the league itself (except maybe some announcers on NFL network) use these stats in any official capacity.
I still question if Smith's future is at LT but it has only been 2 games and he has 14 more games to learn.Banks played a good game because he wasn't asked to do what he can't do. Banks can press at the line and play close the scrimmage.Let Moore/Jennings shadow the speedy WO and slot guys. Matchup Verner against the best WO and the Bucs actually may have a decent pass defense.A lot of the pass plays given up the last two weeks by the Bucs have come from pick plays. Saints did one against Lansanah but for the most part they didn't fall into it as much as the Titans game.
No, the problem with PFF is people like you don't understand what is being said.I'll simplify. Smith was graded -4.9, he was particularly bad in run blocking earning -4.7 of his overall grade of -4.9. Which means he didn't grade all to badly against the pass -0.2. Which is exactly what you said when you mentioned he got beat by Jordan and probably gave up a sack but did okay for the most part.Your trashing PFF although you're actually agreeing with what is being said.
PFF gave Hicks a net positive grade and yet the Saints benched him before the game was even over, because he was out of his gap way too many times against the run.PFF has flaws and issues based on what was observed from the football game.
I've been very disappointed with Smith's play in the run-game. That was supposed to be a strength of his. I expected him to struggle in pass-pro at this level, which he has, but the poor play in the run game is a let-down.Dude needs to pick it up.
LOL, get defensive much? Show me where I trashed PFF. I merely asked for confirmation to the claim that the NFL itself is using the stats in any sort of official fashion. Sorry that was so hard for you to understand. Oh, and it's not me who doesn't understand the stats, its those that use them to call Smith a revolving door based solely on the stats. There is a whole thread stating just that. Maybe you should go educate that poster instead, I'm doing just fine. But it does sound like you are angry, and since you seem to have the inside stats, sounds like you are trying to justify your subscription maybe?
https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2015/09/22/10-things-you-need-to-know-from-nfl-week-2/4. Jameis Winston earned a better grade in Week 2 than Marcus Mariota did in Week 1.Sam Monson did a good job of explaining last week why Mariota's Week 1 grade (+2.3) wasn't nearly as inflated as his perfect NFL passer rating, even though he played well in his win over the Buccaneers.As for how Winston posted a +3.1 grade in the Bucs' Week 2 win over the Saints, he was boosted by his rushing grade of +0.7, third in the NFL for Week 2 behind Cam Newton and Tyrod Taylor. He was also efficient as a passer, earning a +2.3 passing grade on the strength of his zero interceptions and effective deep passing, completing four-of-six throws of 20+ yards.What does this mean for their careers? We don't know that yet, but even though Mariota still holds the edge in overall grade through two weeks (Mariota ranks No. 26 in the NFL versus Winston's No. 32), there are reasons for optimism for both rookie passers.
I'm sure I'll get Biggs fired up about this, so I'll issue the following disclaimer first...I think what they do is generally pretty valuable. They are basically one of the only groups that looks at performance play by play for every team. And now that all-22 is available, some of their weakness are shored up. I actually think that generally, it's process is improved from where it was. And no, my criticism isn't "homer-based" - a lot of times my biggest criticism is when a Buc's player is too highly-graded. That said, here are the things I don't love about PFF:- I think the NFL is complicated. They seem to think that by setting the bar low (results, not technique), that they somehow avoid that problem. I think there are a lot more plays than they think where a guy screwed up and caused another guy to look bad, or plays where they honestly have no idea who was supposed to do what. They shrug their shoulders and say those plays are ignored, but hello (!), those are often very big plays. Let's take the play where Verner got the deep PI and was bailed out by an offensive hold. That was supposed to be Cover-2, but Major Wright messed up and never showed. Guess who is getting docked for that one if the play weren't offset? They seem to think that all comes out in the wash, I don't. More recently they've acknowledged that there is an inherent level of inaccuracy involved, which is progress of sorts. - Is Evan Mathis the only player they've ever spoken to? He's the poster-child for their grades because years ago he was interviewed and said it was consistent with how his team graded him. Which is kind of funny, since he graded as an all-pro for them, and yet his team that was supposedly grading him the same way let him walk. I'll point out that supposedly only EDS got a positive grade on the OL v. TN, and I believe was the highest graded Buc overall. On Sunday's telecast, Ronde said that only Marpet was positively graded by the Bucs. - The nature of their plus/minus accounting. A joe-average player can have 3-4 big games and score very highly over the course of the year. Hello, Michael Johnson from a few years ago who accumulated big games against bad players and then was totally average the rest of the year. - Context free - this is something inherent to the process. What I mean by this is that there's no accounting for quality of opposition. A good example was Michael Bennett's breakout game v. the Colts on primetime. That was the game where Curtis Painter started. Bennett absolutely abused the OT. But if you go back and look, the DE who faced that OT in the previous two games also had a monster score. These last two points are why I believe PFF is best used as a screen or a check against your intuition, not as the gospel. - They use play the NFL card a lot to defend/promote themselves. That's great for them, but the reality is this - NFL teams are multi-million dollar industries. What's it to them to outsource breaking down game-film? There are certain things they do that I have no doubt are perfectly accurate - formations, number of blitzes, personnel counts, targets, etc. that are valuable and time/labor intensive. By purchasing this data, it allows the staff to do more value added stuff. As for the grades, we really don't know how NFL teams use them. Again, in case Biggs is reading, these are mostly quibbles. I think what they do is pretty impressive overall, and some of things are really cool. I just think they probably could use a dose of humility about it at times.
I think Smith has done well so far. LT is the hardest position to play on the OL, especially for a rookie. He's usually good for a holding penalty/false start per game. He hasn't thrived in the run game, but he's a big powerful man. tTis should come as technique improves.He hasn't gotten beaten like a drum in pass pro. Orakpo and Cam Jordan are two good DE's. I wouldn't have been surprised if he had gotten beaten like Strief against those two. He'll get a good test this week against Clowney, will be a major matchup.
How the heck did Jacquies Smith not make this list?
Very well stated. PFF is good for what it is. But it is not the end all be all decision maker. Also, not sure from how you wrote it, but PFF does not use all-22 in it's grading. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but PFF grades are posted by Wednesday morning and the All-22 doesn't even get released until later that same day. So I believe they are simply using the same TV broadcast that you and I see on game day.
This is what I mean when I say there are flaws in PFF's grading system. How is a guy who became the NFL's leading sack artist (as a result of this game) not on that list?
Also, not sure from how you wrote it, but PFF does not use all-22 in it's grading. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but PFF grades are posted by Wednesday morning and the All-22 doesn't even get released until later that same day. So I believe they are simply using the same TV broadcast that you and I see on game day.
You are wrong. All grades are usually posted by Monday.Monday night's game is up right now.
This is what I mean when I say there are flaws in PFF's grading system. How is a guy who became the NFL's leading sack artist (as a result of this game) not on that list?
Maybe because they are taking account of his play against the run? I dunno that's just a guess.
Maybe because they are taking account of his play against the run? I dunno that's just a guess.
Smith had a +1.8 grade from the game, so he was a top-performer. Not sure why they didn't put in the article, but he did grade well.
I was going to say, he had to be positively graded. Sacks are big, but they take into account penalties, how he did v. the run, other pass plays where maybe he got nothing going, etc... I think pass rush is one area I don't have a lot of disagreement with them, and I like that they treat half sacks as full sacks.
Makes sense, thanks.
PFF has flaws and issues based on what was observed from the football game.
I'd have to question anyone that gave Sims a positive grade.
what do you think he did poorly? i remember a couple good runs, nothing special, but nothing negative either. he did average about 5ypc?
There's nothing about this guy's game that i find impressive....especially considering where he was drafted. I think both Rainey and James are better runners.
I thought he looked good out there. There are times where he doesn't know where to go and kind of jumbles around like Blount used to do, but he broke some tackles and made some plays as well.His speed is shockingly different than Martin's. I was shocked to see him look so much faster to the edge.
draft position shouldnt influence this. did he do something that should be graded poorly last game? did he do more wrong than right? a 4.8ypc is pretty nice – now i cant remember what holes he was running through, or if he missed obvious cuts, but i dont think its odd that he had a positive grade with that ypc.
Yeah on one of those plays I was surprised he was able to turn the corner. We need to use him more on some outside runs. Guy has some good speed, better than I orginially thought.
Sims ran with a purpose that game and he helped us. It was actually the first time I saw him make a case for himself as legit weapon instead of failed Lovie/Licht dream. Some speed, a little more decisiveness, and a little more power yesterday. Combined with some nice play calling from Koetter and Sims could be a nice relief RB to Martin if he continues where he left off from last week.
I'm not a fan of Sims, but agree with those that said he actually looked like a NFL RB on Sunday. Definitely a pleasant surprise.
I'm not a fan of Sims, but agree with those that said he actually looked like a NFL RB on Sunday. Definitely a pleasant surprise.
He has looked stronger and more NFL caliber this season. I was also not a fan.
Thank you for confirming they only use the TV broadcast to grade players. It would be very interesting to see how the grades would change if they used the All-22 coaches film.
somebody needs to tell Sims to occasionally stick his foot in the ground, make a cut, and run (without tripping)
If you want to gripe about Sims' draft position fine, but I thought he looked pretty good out there. For someone who I've heard could never break a tackle, he broke 3 on one play (including 1 behind the LOS).He also had a 12-yard 3rd down conversion on a quick screen that was called back due to a bogus ASJ holding call. Anybody notice that they lined him up out wide a few times? He caught the pass that deflected in the air from that position.
Are some of our fans blind when it comes to Smith? He still seems slow and his protection has seemed sketchy so I'm not surprised with his grade but with that said he did go against Cam Jordan and Jordan didn't make a huge impact on the game so you can say that's a win. He definitely has a lot of room for improvement.
Are some of our fans blind when it comes to Smith? He still seems slow and his protection has seemed sketchy so I'm not surprised with his grade but with that said he did go against Cam Jordan and Jordan didn't make a huge impact on the game so you can say that's a win. He definitely has a lot of room for improvement.
Haha I am not blind but yes he seems to be a step too slow. I have said as much as I think he is future is at RT or kicking on the inside. For now he is an upgrade over what was trotted out there last year at LT, but we have 14 games to go to see his complete body of work at LT. Sims and Rainey were used a lot on screens to the outside and I would like to see them line up more out there. Koetter has the right idea in how to use Sims and Rainey for the passing game. You have to remember it is a learning period for Koetter as well in understanding what the Bucs players can and can not do on offense.
Agreed that OC still learning too
jeebz116
As a D. Smith fan, I have been watching him closely, and actually it seems like most /all the comments about him are pretty much spot on, just wanted to kind of sum up my observations:He has been doing a really nice job on getting a good kick back and defending 1 on 1 vs pass rushers when they are clearly defined as to who the outside rusher will be. He did get beat twice cleanly by Cam Jordan, once for a sack, but other than that defended well in pass pro. As for run blocking and blocking in space on screens, oh man does he need some help. He often runs up to the next level to find someone to block and just looks lost almost like he's confused or doesn't really want to block one of the LB's or S. It's really weird, unlike Marpet who is just looking for anyone to hit.I just want to see him get that nasty mentality where he just starts hunting for anyone to hit, because the few times I've seen him do it, he's dominant.
Agreed. Good post.
I've seen the same. I don't think it's an unwillingness to hit someone, it seems more like confusion on his part. Great observations though.
What's his job at the next level? Seek and destroy or he has a specific target? Maybe it varies?
What's his job at the next level? Seek and destroy or he has a specific target? Maybe it varies?
Almost every time, DS76 just runs right past a LB or 2 where if he had picked either one of them it could have given an extra couple of yards or more.Maybe he doesn't want to get penalized and is still learning what he can and can't get away with, but yeah he doesn't even try to block on the second level.I will say this though, he's already a heck of allot better than Anthony Collins, and he is steadily improving each week so far even since pre season, so I'm actually pretty encouraged.
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When he does that, his thinking is, the RB is right behind him. So he is going for the big play. He wants to lead the runner to the end zone. He will learn and get better. Its a long season.
This!!! I also have to question how they can know every players assignment. This could effect a couple plays and and their grades most every game. I think pff is just a baseline barometer more than an accurate grading process. Sure they numbers may be able in line with the teams a good amount, but it also opens the door for errors.
Kenyatta Walker's name is NOT, under any circumstance, suppose to be brought up, person who brought up his name………
PFF – "there's an inherent level of inaccuracy" that even PFF acknowledges now. I think I just heard Buggsy's head explode. I recall a hilarious discussion about subjective and objective. "A dose of humility about it at times" - true but you could also say that about some of their fans, especially those who use the stats as if they are the full truth
I haven't watched that closely but if this is the case then it can be fixed with time and proper coaching. We have the time part.
Haven't watched the whole saints game on coach film but the bits I've watched and focused on DSMITH I can certainly agree with the first assessment. Seemed liked as the game went on if it was just a straight 1v1 pass rush the guy didn't even try. Buddy is massive and looks to be strong as an ox so he just stands the DE up and they just hang out until the play is over.
JonMott
How did Bradley get a +1.6? I'm not saying he played bad at all but i only saw him make three tackles
As the season goes on DSmith will be a major liability. How does PFF grade OL? Is it only a negative if his man gets a sack or pressure? Because DSmith was getting beaten on nearly every single play in this last game, especially early on. Against the run and the pass.Also, if they arent using the all-22 then they have no business grading safeties at all. And who wrote the article? Winston's completion percentage in week one was 48.48%. I mean if they cant even get the simple facts straight how can you trust their rankings? I am not buying what they are selling.
I wonder how they graded George Johnson? He was all-time terrible in this game. Worse than DSmith.And Cherilus looked pretty damn good in this game. What a difference a week made for him.
Their stats and tracking are isolated and unbiased. They don't care who you're playing against, they're just telling you how he performed. You as a fan can take Cameron Jordan into account, but they don't. Reason being... comparisons. Virtually every LT will play similar difficulty over the season or a series of multiple seasons, the numbers eventually will even out, so it doesn't matter that Jordan was playing. He'll play against 12 other LT's and they'll be graded the same way Smith was.
This!!! I also have to question how they can know every players assignment.
I believe they've said they don't grade a play if there is a question mark about who was supposed to block whom. You don't have to know a guy's assignment when an OT pancakes a DE or a DT splits a double-team. They pretty much grade on what one guy does vs. another guy, using the same standards league-wide. Over the course of a season, it gives you a pretty good idea of how individual players performed in a team game.
And who wrote the article? Winston's completion percentage in week one was 48.48%. I mean if they cant even get the simple facts straight how can you trust their rankings? I am not buying what they are selling.
I don't think they were citing a raw completion percentage, but rather some sort of "advanced" percentage that takes into account things like drops.
J. Smith's grade versus Hicks shows that even though Smith had a superb game pff has Smith graded higher than Hicks by a tiny amount which is really misleading given how much Smith impacted the game versus Hicks.
And there are also times where the OT pancakes a DE, but we don't see that his assignment was actually the DT and then the OG that was suppose to pull and hit the DE instead looks lost and the DT blows up the play. The OT gets a false positive and the OG gets a false negative. But it is true, in the end, it should all come out in the wash. And this is a very important part to remember too. After 16 games, like Biggsy himself states, it usually balances out and paints a fairly accurate picture and can indicate specific trends. Also, it was said they don't account for who the player was going against be it JJ Watt or Mickey Mouse. But so many posters here then use single game scores to make such final judgments. We are two games into the year, the scores certainly have not balanced out yet and thus do not present a fair comparison. You can't say the Bucs OT played much worse than the Saints OT in a single game without looking at who they went up against. At the end of the year, you absolutely can, once it is averaged out. You can't have your cake (the scores are fair because they balance out over the year) and eat it too (X is a worse player than Y because of the PFF score in a single game)Again, the PFF scores are a neat tool, when used properly. They are not an end all be all determination of any players true performance (although they can be a likely indicator). They do eventually average out and show trend lines, but not after just two games. And any poster who makes a thread or post like "Smith is a revolving door" because of a single game PFF grade is just an idiot. it has been said a few times here that certain posters don't understand just how to use the PFF scores. How true that is.
it has been said a few times here that certain posters don't understand just how to use the PFF scores. How true that is.
+1Some people use PFF statistics like they are the whole truth. The reality is they are far from it for many reasons, one being individual players in a team sport don't exist in vacuum. Another being that the PFF reviewer doesn't always know what the intent was. That is like having a person rate 32 guys carrying a bucket of water 10 feet and then judging them on their skill based on spills. That seems easy enough, but now what if we say the reviewer cant see the 32 guys from the waste down, so the reviewer doesn't know if someone is tripping the walker, doesn't know if the surface is the same for all walkers etc.? Worse than that the CONDITIONS are different for every walker. One is walking on a solid surface, the other sand. How helpful is the statistic now? The person rating the 32 walker might apply the same "standard," but its the absence of information about the variables that reduces the value of the stat. So, if a PFF reviewer doesn't know the play and doesn't know about the impact of the players next to the reviewed player . . . the value of the stat is dropping. Its not useless, its just of limited value. Still interesting, just not a substitute for your own eyes, other sources . .. supplement, definitely
There's a reason a lot of NFL teams and ESPN back PFF. It's just like advanced stats in baseball and basketball. There's also a reason the best players are usually at the top of their position towards the end of the season. It all adds out pretty evenly in the end. It's definitely not perfect but I tend to agree with most their stats after watching games closely.
Haha I am not blind but yes he seems to be a step too slow. I have said as much as I think he is future is at RT or kicking on the inside. For now he is an upgrade over what was trotted out there last year at LT, but we have 14 games to go to see his complete body of work at LT.
Definitely agree with you here. Maybe we plan on drafting a LT next year and moving him depending on how he looks playing LT.
Ahhh that makes sense.
We definitely need more talent on the OL. We need to draft more. Smith is probably going to improve but this last game he had a very low motor. He looked lazy out there. That is not what you want when you draft a guy so early and that is why he was rated as a 3-5th round player. That and the fact that he has questionable feet to play LT. At present I think his deficiencies would be less noticable playing guard.I sure hope he picks it up or Licht is going to look pretty bad that all the ameteur draftniks knew better than he did. I think everyone was shocked that he was picked so early. I wonder if they have tried Marpet at tackle at all. I am curious to see how he would do over there. He is pretty athletic but I dont know how good his lateral movement is.
Quotes from The Red Board being quoted on Saints Report