Is Hisao's Presence Useless in Hanako's Route?
Snelx
Post by Snelx » Mon Jan 09, 2012 4:59 am
After finishing both Hanako and Lilly route (Emi too)..
Most of you guys would know that in Hanako route, it ends at an earlier timeline of the game.
while Lilly proceed to further down the future timeline.
In Lilly route, i feel happy that Hanako can stand with her own feet without Hisao.
Makes me wonder is Hisao presence kind of useless in her own route...
maybe given time, Hanako could also stand by herself.
Doesn't matter is Hisao there or not (in Hanako's own route).
It's kinda funny, I've played a bunch of VN's and for the first time I'm feeling apprehensive about going down another path. I'm thinking weird crap like how will Hanako ever be happy if someones not there for her.......
If Hanako's writer reads this I want you to know that I thank you for giving me this wonderful treasure.
- Rykn
華子 - Hanako - 'flower girl'
INFERTakuya
Re: Is Hisao's Presence Useless in Hanako's Route?
Post by INFERTakuya » Mon Jan 09, 2012 5:07 am
Hanako's a strong girl, though she may not look it. Remember that she's struck by depression around her birthday every year. Lilly even states that she couldn't even do anything for her the previous year except leave some food at her door, and yet Hanako recovered from her bout of depression with minimal interference from anyone else...only to fall victim again during the events of the game.
Though she manages to recover from it in Lilly's route, it's likely that the same thing will continue to happen in the future. With Hisao by her side though, perhaps she'll finally gain feelings of self-worth and be able to enjoy life with her beloved.
Endings Obtained
Emi: Bad End|Second Chance|Good End
Hanako: Bad End|Neutral End|Good End
Lilly: Bad End|Good End
Shizune: -In Progress-
Feuver
Post by Feuver » Mon Jan 09, 2012 5:13 am
I agree with OP, but only in the extension of Hanako's Route. if he wasn't in Lilly's route, than it's hard to know what would've happened.
It is said somewhere during Lilly's route thatHanako was glad that Hisao was around there, it helped her gain confidence a bit.
However, Hanako, as said above,is a strong girl, not the shy girl that you expect her to be at the start of the VN. It's just that she needs to collect herself and need real friends than can boost her confidence rather than treat her like a child.
Also, now that I think about it, Because of Hisao in Hanako's route,she has a panic attack that probably makes her even more awkward and shy to the rest of the class, while in Lilly's route, that panic attack never happened.
Katawa shoujo full flowchart V2.9
Lilly's arc V2.9
Emi's arc V2.9
Rin's arc V2.9
Hanako's arc V2.9
Feuver wrote: Also, now that I think about it, Because of Hisao in Hanako's route,she has a panic attack that probably makes her even more awkward and shy to the rest of the class, while in Lilly's route, that panic attack never happened.
Now that you mentioned, do you think that the panic attack cause Hanako to have weird thoughts such as Hisao and Lilly will think she is a broken person.
Maybe that is why Hanako scream Hisao off in her own path (bad end).
If that is the cause, it just make Hisao presence to be a pain for Hanako.
When someone cares for her, just makes her feel bad.
Resulting once again, it seems better to leave her alone just like in Lilly path.
Then again,
like what INFERTakuya has mentioned Hanako will suffer again on her birthday.
INFERTakuya wrote: it's likely that the same thing will continue to happen in the future.[/spoiler]
Hisao might be a supporting pillar for Hanako future.
But will that prevent her to stand up on her own?
PS: Then again, the triggers to her panic attack is the mentioned of birthday.
I wonder why she did not break down when Lilly and Hisao celebrate her birthday during the 'Tea party' scene.
- i think i'm analyzing too deep regarding Hanako -
There is beliefs that the fire could've happened during her birthday, which would confirm why she suffers those panic attack.
It is also said that during her real birthday, she goes through an existential crisis, aka wondering why she survived, why her parents died, why the fire happened, why does she keep on living and the like.
Lilly said that her last birthday (the year before Hisao was there), she stayed in her room the entire day. This is probably why she proposed to make her birthday in advance, plus the reason that she was leaving for Scotland. Lilly couldn't have told you beforehand, since she is bound to silence for Hanako's sake.
I believe that nothing will ever stop her existential crisis but if she starts re-gaining self-confidence and becomes a more complete person. If she starts getting busy with work (Like the newspaper and travelling), then she won't really have time to ponder why she exists, or why her parents died, because she will have moved on.
That's what I believe, none the less.
shadowbb
Post by shadowbb » Mon Jan 09, 2012 5:37 am
I think he is at least part of the reason she opens up more. Lilly mentions that as well when he keeps crediting her as the reason Hanako starts blossoming into the more social person at the end than she was at the beginning of the story (when she had known Lilly for over a year) and Hanako mentions herself that she feels completely useless to Lilly while relying on her all this time. It's also heavily implied in Lilly's route that Hanako falls for Hisao as much as Lilly does, but Lilly beats her to the punch (putting aside the fact that Hisao is falling for Lilly anyway) and Hanako gives up on going further with him.
**Library 100% complete.**
1. Lilly *Done*
2. Hanako *Done*
3. Emi *Done*
4. Rin *Done*
5. Shizune *Done*
Post by Guest » Mon Jan 09, 2012 5:40 am
I think Hanako does pretty well in Lilly's route, but potentially better in her own. Though she shows more independence in Lilly's route, more of her issues are starting to be dealt with during her ending. Though she makes great strides in Lilly's path, it's really just enough for her to start being a normal person. She's coping better, but she still has her problems to slowly deal with, day by day.
Her ending makes mention of the painful but swift means by which they both tear down the "walls" between them. The tougher times she goes through in her arc could actually serve to make her realize she needs to make some drastic changes, and becoming involved with Hisao was a big one. I think being genuinely loved by Hisao will help her self-esteem, cause her to notice her own positive qualities, and maybe even help her come to terms with her physical appearance, as it sinks in that he chose her over other young women she thinks are prettier than her. She has him around to help shoulder her burdens, but treat her like an adult and give her her space, when needed. Bringing Hisao happiness and helping him deal with his problems here and there could definitely help her feel like she isn't useless. I also can't help but shake the feeling that, before she kissed him right at the end, she must have seen their class mates were watching, and did it anyway; a bold move, especially for her, indicating an improvement in her social phobias.
I guess it all comes down to your interpretation of things, and the scale of optimism vs. cynicism, but I don't think it's a huge stretch to assume that Hanako could make some real (and relatively quick) progress after her ending.
viduuskamen
Post by viduuskamen » Mon Jan 09, 2012 5:46 am
I was thinking the same thing while playing Lilly's route after finishing Hanako's.
My own heart skipped a beat during the scene where Hanako saw Hisao hugging Lilly.
I must have froze for a few minutes while cursing Hisao with obscenities for being so inconsiderate, before clicking to see the aftermath.
At the time, I really thought Hanako would have done something self-destructive after that scene... I was very grateful to the devs that she didn't.
Then as the story progressed... I realized that Hanako is... doing very well... almost too well.
So I worried if it was a pretense for something much more horrible to come.
Then she got even better.
I suppose it was hinted in Hanako's path that Lilly knew Hanako wasn't totally helpless, and needed to grow on her own. After all, Hanako was able to make it pass her last birthday (wasn't really a good enough reason for me at the time, so I ignored her and got the neutral ending.)
But Hanako seemed to have recovered much faster than Hisao was around... which makes me ponder if it diminishes her cinematic of you being the only talking to her in the midst of all the people ignoring (or ignored by her).
My thoughts are that she accomplished much more in Hisao's path than she could have elsewhere:
It isn't wholly selfish to think that there are different levels of "openness" she was willing to bring herself to, and it is shown in Shizune's path that Hanako -could- already bring herself to enjoy an activity if she really wanted to... (playing chess) until Shizune went Shizune on her. So Hanako joining the newspaper club (Lilly's path) shows her already-occurring recovery and attempts o ointeract with others. (Better than Shizune's path, anyway.)
Therefore, I think it was the meaning of the devs to show that she was able to open herself up to a new level of intimacy (both scar scenes with Hisao). I believe the devs like her too, and it's just to show that Hanako is going to do well... and that's really all that matters at the end for us wishing Hanako future happiness, no?
And the same could possibly be said for all the girls... they aren't necessarily self-destructive, but your involvement in their lives make them more... whole. For the lack of a better word.
edit: typo's galore, got a little emotional here talking about Hanako here...
Last edited by viduuskamen on Mon Jan 09, 2012 5:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
"It's kinda funny, I've played a bunch of VN's and for the first time I'm feeling apprehensive about going down another path. I'm thinking weird crap like how will Hanako ever be happy if someones not there for her.......If Hanako's writer reads this I want you to know that I thank you for giving me this wonderful treasure."
-Rykn
[I feel like a giant jerk for completing the game.]
It's actually not accelerated.
Let's say that Katawa Shoujo takes places on a 30 days basis
Let's say Lilly leaves on the 10
Then, Hanako's arc continues, and ends before she comes back.
So let's say that 2 week goes on, then
Lilly comes back the 24.
So Hanako's arc ends between the 10th and the 24th.
Hanako's accelerated growth actually happens AFTER the 24th, if you are in Lilly's arc.
Wow.. after all the diverse response.
Now i really wonder do Love makes a girl whole?
In this case for Hanako, it seems that love, and Hisao could be her future pillar down the road. (not related to how fast Hanako will grow strong)
But then again, in Lilly's path,
having a healthy circle of friends, with similar interest, not to mentioned Hanako actually decided to travel.
It seems a big improvement too.
Ultimately, in the next year for birthday, will love helps her overcome her break downs?
or will the circle of new friends she made...
It could all ended up the same scene like thebad end for Hanako.
where she is just sick of everything.
viduuskamen wrote: But Hanako seemed to have recovered much faster than Hisao was around... which makes me ponder if it diminishes her cinematic of you being the only talking to her in the midst of all the people ignoring (or ignored by her).
There's the issue of the time frame, you know.
Besides, as stated by someone else, Hanako got a real severe panic attack in class on her route, which basically rendered all her progress up to that point with regards to overcoming her agoraphobia moot, while no such thing happened in Lilly's route.
Snelx wrote: It could all ended up the same scene like thebad end for Hanako.
Ugh...don't remind me. Her Bad End was so reminiscent of Higurashi.
Well, the sudden screen-shaking was what got me though, since I was looking at something else while reading and the "screen" suddenly shook violently the moment I looked back at it.
Just noticed I edited out something that Feuver was referring to.
I did, completely forget about Hanako's time frame... however in Shiznue's "Advanced Game Theory" scene, Hanako is already there playing chess.
This is prior to Lilly leaving for Scotland (since Lilly and Akira met at Shiznue's place a day before they had to leave, and the scene where you are at Shizune's place in Act 3), so I think this still shows that Hanako is recovering on her own, or at least capable of doing some things that she likes...
The panic attack in class, while surprising, didn't seem (to me) that it set her back very much in terms of progress... (I blame Shizune and Misha ) Hanako was able to have a small party afterwards, and even go out to town; it wasn't until Lilly's departure for Scotland and Hanako's birthday did she kind of lock herself in again... which was likely to have happened regardless...
Sorry if I sound a little argumentative; I just still kind of want to believe that you were able to do "more" than "faster" though.
And please... no bad end
Engraven
Post by Engraven » Mon Jan 09, 2012 6:50 am
I do think that HIsao made a difference. To me, a main point in Hanako's route was her desire to be treated equally, despite her differences (burns and trauma). Even Lilly can't get Hanako out of her birthday depression, and it takes Hisao A LOT of getting closer to her and understanding her before she's willing to truly open up to him. While I do think that given enough time, Hanako may be able to open up to others, I believe that Hisao was able to get close enough to accelerate that process. In Lilly's route, she may have gotten some new friends, but it's debatable whether her conflicts with her equality issue and birthday depression are still there (I'd wager they are). I like to think that Hisao was one person who made a significant difference in a shorter period of time. While I do not doubt Hanako would have gotten out eventually, Hisao was able to help her resolve a lot of her problems as a familiar loved one instead of several new friends.
viduuskamen wrote: Just noticed I edited out something that Feuver was referring to.
nah, i do not mind about the argumentative part. (not sure about the rest)
Because i need some insights to how much Hisao plays a significant part in Hanako life.
Well, more of it is to try to know Hanako better.
I really want to believe that Hanako; being in love with Hisao, will helps her condition to improve.
But in other routes, it just seems that Hanako doesn't need any help.
And when I try to rethink about it, it seems like the more distance Hisao acts towards Hanako,
the safer it is for Hanako mental stability.
I would prefer to think that love does a significant change to Hanako.
But, with what the other routes show, this seems not the case.
Post by Mirage_GSM » Mon Jan 09, 2012 8:45 am
Snelx wrote: I really want to believe that Hanako; being in love with Hisao, will helps her condition to improve.
Of course you're free too interpret and analyze to your heart's content, but I think the main reason why Hanako does so well for herself in Lilly's path is that that path is about Lilly, and if Hanako were having all the issues there that she has in her own path that would detract from Lilly's story.
While the writers obviously tried to keep the paths more or less consistent, there are some things you have to change to tell the story you want to tell.