The Irish In The Wood Pile
By TheCountOfNowhere, February 28, 2011 in House prices and the economy
TheCountOfNowhere
Location:Nowhere
About Me:Number of blocked trolls 86
I watched the Irish election result with some interest. Some of the comments on the news web sites were alogn the lines of.
We've voted for the party that said they wont go along with the bankers.
Stick your english banking system where the sun don't shine.
We're not paying to bail out the english banks.
etc etc etc.
It sounds like the irish electorate are expecting the new government to do what the previous government refused to do...i.e. tell the banks where to go.
This might get interesting and could spark off the next phase of the banking/euro crisis.
Ireland Expects.
EUBanana
Location:Exeter
I guess thats how the Irish got their rep for being thick. I mean, uh? It's our fault now?
Shouldn't they be moaning at Brussels instead?
Guest sillybear2
More like there's something nasty lurking in the woodshed.
The Irish shouldn't kid themselves, they're now ruled by the ECB and Chancellor Angela Merkel, they're even hoping to offload their ghost estates onto British housing associations, the comparisons to the old absentee landlords are all too obvious. They sold themselves down the river and to what end? So they could both sell and buy Ireland back off themselves and collectively bankrupt everyone in the process?
Not that the UK is any better of course, Ireland is a salutary warning, we'd have experienced exactly the same extremes if we had joined the Euro.
Edited February 28, 2011 by sillybear2
Well Iceland voted not to repay the private debts. And its getting on very well. Why not Ireland?
Make no mistake Ireland will dump the EU if it reconds it will be better off.
World spiritual and political figureheads who do not tow the company line, that being the big and central banks control of the money supply, end up dead.
Funny what a population will do when stressed to the max through a viscously efficient campaign of propaganda! "Sieg Heil". Nuff said.
In actuality the politicians have just put on new suits/masks...whatever; hence Ireland has just moved one step closer to hell aka Sachs.
Fine Gael banking strategy in meltdown
Edited February 28, 2011 by cashinmattress
Beggar Thy Children
Location:Hamster wheel
Riiiight. And you believe them do you ? LOL
World spiritual and political figureheads who do not tow the company line, being the central banks control of the money supply, end up dead.
Yup, forget all the hot air, all mainstream Irish parties are committed to the Euro project, even if that means deflating and cutting their people to death, and driving the young away. The best they can hope for is a less usurious rate from their new masters. The UK has exactly the same death wish when it comes to the beloved City.
The damage is done, their fate was sealed when they issued that blanket guarantee, soon after their government claimed it was the cheapest bailout in history and hadn't cost them a penny, others warned "in extremis, Irish taxpayers could be paying for this for a generation", what can you do, governments lie. The Germans are now getting their revenge for being unilaterally put on the hook back then.
koala_bear
This has been the subject of many a thread, but brief précis on why they blame the some of the UK banks (with the same level of justification as an arsonist starting a forest fire):
The bubble in Ireland was helped due to a credit explosion that started in the mid-late 1990's when both Halifax and BoS (years before their merger) entered the Irish market and tried to gain market share very quickly by offering huge quantities of cash at loss making rates. One by one the native irish banks followed their behaviour to avoid losing large numbers of customers. H and BoS also loaned to those with lower credit scores than the native banks, however only Anglo followed them in this practice. 25+ years ago Anglo was a smallish Manchester focused bank that did a lot of cross boarder banking but during the 1990's they shifted to being an Irish based bank with very loose lending practices, with little experience of the sectors in which they played and no substantial experience of what happens in a recession. RBS also played its part by loosening the strings on its Irish subsidiary UB so it could keep up with the others.
Notice how the 2 largest UK banks that got themselves in big trouble (i.e. those that have substantial government ownership and in one case an emergency takeover) were also at it big time in Ireland.
Of course there are other reasons as well:
Over building
Developers and brown paper envelopes for politicians
lack of proper banking regulation
OnlyMe
They're fecked, they don't own their houses and they don't own or control their country either, they had the opportunity but have blown it, first with their bubble and then accepting the payoff.
Worse, the funny money they were so keen on is going to keep on kicking them in the back, they get most of their oil from Libya apparently.
http://ftalphaville.ft.com/blog/2011/02/25/498686/the-eurozone-crisis-oil-shock-nexus/
Edited February 28, 2011 by OnlyMe
Lessons from Argentina, Greece and Ireland; if you're planning a huge borrowing binge, ensure you can always print the funny money you owe to your creditors, otherwise there is no escape.
Not particularly. The trouble is if/when they don't deliver what the electorate expect.
No, it's the English bankers fault...controlled from London...The Irish don;t like being controlled by London, they have a bit of history in that department.
Yup, forget all the hot air, all mainstream Irish parties are committed to the Euro project, even if that means deflating and cutting their people to death, and driving the young away.
The great Irish money famine.
The Irish shouldn't kid themselves, they're now ruled by the ECB and Chancellor Angela Merkel, they're even hoping to offload their ghost estates onto British housing associations...
As agreed by the previous government...times they are a changing.
It's a potentially difficult situation...we're seeing mass protests in the middle east....if the polticial parties dont deliver in Irleand we might see the same there. I guess the mass population have no desire to be taxed to into the ground to keep british banks afloat. Can't blame them really, no one here has that desire either.
Edited February 28, 2011 by TheCountOfNowhere
Location:NWUK
Ireland is in a serious bind.
The bank guarantee was a disaster of unparalleled stupidity and nailed private debt to the taxpayer but it also opened Ireland to exploitation by foreign govts.
Initially, many of the 'bank bondholders' were foreign (read German, US and UK) banks.
If Ireland 'burns the bondholders' these banks lose out in a big way.
As they are already in deep trouble, they need to be paid by Ireland, else they (and possibly their Sovereigns) go under.
Now, the problem is that many (but not all) of these bondholders have already been paid off - so there really are no 'bank bondholders' to burn.
Ireland borrowed the money to do this - hence the huge national debt.
Britain and the EU gave this money to Ireland so thatit could be recycled back to their own banks; its a form of state rescue/subsidy that is illegal under law if done directly. However, if done indirectly, ie through Ireland, its perfectly legal.
So, the UK/US/German govts can prop up their banking systems with the Irish govt guarantee as a backstop.
This then is a bailout which appears as a 'credit' on govt books - its a 'loan' to Ireland, we're making a profit.
The new bondholders then are foreign sovereigns; thats why there is such an issue/difficulty with 'burning' them.
I wonder how many UK residents would support 'plucky little Ireland' burning the bondholders if it meant, say, a 3p rise in income tax?
Many Irish loans and bonds are now pledged as collateral at the ECB, if they default they'd probably get booted from the EMU. Where do they go from there, readopting the punt and shadowing the BoE? Yeah, way to go in getting one over on the hated English bankers.
The banks went mad alright, just like in the UK, but ultimately the government at the time is still responsible, they were meant to be regulating them and instead they were too busy kissing their a$$es, taking their donations and awarding them knighthoods. In the case of Ireland the guarantee was just the cherry on top, the public got handed the bar tab for the party.
The hungry and the opressed care not for such matters. It sounds like the Irish have reached a cross-road. The road they take could affect us all.
The banks went mad alright, just like in the UK, but ultimately the government at the time is still responsible, they were meant to be regulating them and instead they were too busy kissing their a$$es, taking their donations and awarding them knighthoods.
The hungry and the opressed care not for such matters either. It's not their debt, they didnt agree to it. In fact, kicking out the government that signed their lives away is a clear indication that they don't agree with it and are not going to stand for it.
Britain and the EU gave this money to Ireland so that it could be recycled back to their own banks; its a form of state rescue/subsidy that is illegal under law if done directly. However, if done indirectly, i.e. through Ireland, its perfectly legal.
There are still enough remaining bond holders to burn and burning them would give certain other EU nations problems.
Denmark proved it can be done several weeks ago but it only works if you get in early so it becomes another countries problem. The bond holders are also concentrated in certain countires that bent over backwards to make sure Ireland had a non bond burn bail out.
Dorkins
Who's afraid of the 'be careful what you wish for' trolls?
So far in this crisis, every government in every country has talked tough on the banks while doing everything in their power to give them as much money as possible. No reason to think this lot will be any different.
The banks went mad alright, just like in the UK, but ultimately the government at the time is still responsible, they were meant to be regulating them and instead they were too busy kissing their a$es, taking their donations and awarding them knighthoods.
That was very silly of the ECB to take Irish bond as collateral then, especially as it has been obvious that FG was going to win the election for years before they were even forced to call it early. Can't be too long before we have elections in some of the other PIIGS...
Hyperduck Quack Quack
I'm beginning to that the the wealthy are now hoovering up so much of the limited amount of money around that it's making the rest of us worse off. In the boom, with growing property values and share prices, the rich getting richer didn't necessarily mean the poor got poorer - but now it does.
Legally and practically it's too late, the people they needed to burn took their 100 cents on the €1 and scarpered a long time ago, now they're into the realm of burning the ECB and other sovereign states they're meant to be allied to in a political union. Thanks to our own bailouts if they torch RBS or HBOS it directly impacts the British government, same for the propped up German and French banks, especially so when any default would set off a contagion with Portugal and Spain, possibly Italy.
It's a heavy price to pay for being good Europeans however. There will be more pain yet to come when the ECB starts raising rates to stop the German economy overheating.
Let us not forget that the banks forced the former government to rush through a budget before dissolving.
There is a man behind the green curtain.
The Irish seem to know this. If you were Irish would you be happy with the current state of affairs ?
The rulling parties vote has collapsed and I mean collapsed:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_general_election,_2011
Last Election: 77 seats
This Election: 18 seats
The people have told them what they think of their Bailout.
ShedDweller
Many Irish loans and bonds are now pledged as collateral at the ECB, if they default they'd probably get booted from the EMU.
As I understand it it's worse than that .. as the bonds have become due they have been paid with money from the ECB (I mean would YOU hold an Irish bank bond!) which means that burning the bond holders is now allot harder than before as in effect you are burning the EU .. and they can take the money in effect by force if nessesary.
I think it's unlikely that there will be any civil protest in Ireland. On the night they signed away thier grandchildren's inheritance ONE person was prepared to try and stop Brian Cowen by stand in front of his car. After 90 years of independence they have signed themselves into servitude and for no reason ..
The UK is on the same course .. just a short time down the line except that here it will be worse because we will have inflation as well ..
"Give me control over a nations currency, and I care not who makes its laws." -- Baron M.A. Rothschild
I really don't think the banksters are scared of a mini-me version of Fianna Fáil.
I agree. But if the Irish are stood outside the government buildings with their flaming torches it's game over.
This election could have a great bearing on the financial crisis.
it all depends on what the new government decide to do...govern for the people or govern for the bankers....should be interesting either way.
They need to rise wise up again.