Discussion in 'Archives - Yahoo Canyons Group' started by Charles Wyman, Nov 2, 2000.
> A big problem in Zion, where some family groups get up to 12. There > are a lot of groups - boy scouts, Arizona Mountain Club, etc. - that > bring down groups of 12 with only 1 competent person. (OK, I'm being > generous) so splitting these groups into smaller outfits would be > difficult.
However, we are not writing regulations, only recommendations.
MHO: "Maximum group size of 6 for technical canyons. Larger groups > are exceedingly slow, and are difficult for other people in the > canyon. Large groups should split into traveling units of 6, and > leave an hour between starts."
Something like that, I ain't no riter.
to travel as one group.
A better solution would be six groups of two or even four groups of > three.
very dangerous, to itself as well as everyone else in the canyon.
In this brochure we should recommend smaller group sizes.
this should be obligatory content of EVERY publication concerning > canyons.
throw it in the group.
* Let people know where you're going.
* Evaluate properly your own technical and physical abilities.
* Start your descent at a safe hour.
* Do not attempt a descent with high water levels.
obligatory for the insurance, even when guiding groups).
important part of every course I give : going fast in a safe > way).
* Repect other canyoneers. Do not be the source of a queue.
rescue services, red cross, office of the park services and > government.
very short, depending on the mentality or terrain encountered.
> every topic, please address as many as you can.
> (deaths) to drive home the seriousness of the topic? Your ideas?
> What equipment in particular? Rope length? Helmet? Technical > gear?
> Nontechnical gear? Your ideas?
> without checking against a good topo map" ?
> afternoon showers are common). Your ideas?
> For both hot weather and cold. Neoprene in cold water. Your > ideas?
> Physical limits. Skill level. Your ideas?
> Tied with 6 votes each. Addressed together simply as rope > skills.
> > beyond basic knot tying and rappelling"? Your ideas?
> Swimming? Jumping? Rappelling into water? Your ideas?
> When I wrote the poll questions I thought of "anchor > evaluation"
> as judging the strength of the tree/chockstone/bolt and "anchor > use"
> Can't teach land nav 101, but issues specific to > canyoneering.
> i.e. inability to see landmarks, need to accurately identify > exits.
> Problem with common sense is it just isn't very common.
> Canyon Beta? Your ideas?
> of same temperature. Sneaks up on you. Your ideas?
> high ground and escapes just in case. Your ideas?
> Heat injuries (heat cramps, heat exhaustion, heat stroke).
> Not instruction, but relating the importance of doing it > right.
> simple problems. Ascending. Your ideas?
> of yourselves" ?? Your ideas?
> > Thank you in advance for your input.
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A big problem in Zion, where some family groups get up to 12. There are a lot of groups - boy scouts, Arizona Mountain Club, etc. - that bring down groups of 12 with only 1 competent person. (OK, I'm being generous) so splitting these groups into smaller outfits would be difficult.
MHO: "Maximum group size of 6 for technical canyons. Larger groups are exceedingly slow, and are difficult for other people in the canyon. Large groups should split into traveling units of 6, and leave an hour between starts."
I would like to comment on one part of Koen's post re: "Descenso de > Barrancos".
I know Zion approves of groups of "up to 12 people" but I think groups of > this size have no place in canyons. To clarify, I have no problem with 12 > people in a canyon at the same time, I just think it is wrong for 12 people > to travel as one group.
A better solution would be six groups of two or even four groups of three. > By their nature these smaller groups move faster and more efficiently and so > avoid bottle necks, particularly if everyone knows what they are doing. If > one group wishes to move faster than the group ahead of them they can simply > "play through". It's no problem for small groups to pass each other, but a > group of twelve?
As soon as you get four or more people in one group, things slow down > considerably. A trained guide can move six people fairly quickly but as > groups get much bigger they become a danger to themselves and everyone else > in the canyon.
Although the park may approve of a group being as large as twelve people and > issue permits accordingly, I do not think we should recommend canyoners > traveling in groups of this size. Besides being noisy and more difficult to > control, a large group can not move as quickly and efficiently as smaller > groups. Additionally, if the group is inexperienced it can potentially be > very dangerous, to itself as well as everyone else in the canyon.
> -----Original Message----- > From: Poco Loco Adventures [mailto ocoloco@skynet.be] > Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2000 8:00 AM > To: canyons@egroups.com Flash Flood awareness/prevention: the best way to drive this home real > good > is to include a photo of the same spot before and during a flood. I think > this should be obligatory content of EVERY publication concerning canyons. > One (in this case two) picture says more than a thousand words. Every > "cowboy" who I have shown pictures like this is always a lot quieter > afterwards. . . most people don't have a clue of nature's force in these > places.
For material : I think it makes sense to advise people to take enough rope > to install the highest rappel double-rope AND carry a thinner spare rope, > single-lenght of the highest rappel, which always stays with the last > person. Include helmets, it's a personal choice but nobody can be opposed > to > advising one.
I tought of faxing Rich a copy of the leaflet that the Regional Government > of Aragon/Spain distributes concerning the "Descenso de Barrancos". But > because it's in Spanish I have to translate it anyway (I think) so I'll > just > throw it in the group.
* Let people know where you're going. > * Inform yourself correctly concerning the nature and difficulties of the > canyon. > * Evaluate properly your own technical and physical abilities. > * Do not form big groups to avoid "traffic jams". In case of emergency > this > can be very dangerous. > * Start your descent at a safe hour. > * Do not attempt a descent during unstable weather. In case of > thunderstorm, > the waterlevel can rise > several meters very quickly. > * Do not attempt a descent with high water levels. > * Always take the appropriate equipment : spare rope, neoprene suit, a > belt > with rappelling gear for > each person, food, lighting, dry clothes. (take note that they do not > mention a helmet, this not being > obligatory for the insurance, even when guiding groups).
* Go along discreetly and silently, without disturbing the wildlife nor > damaging plants. > * Respect and take care of the environment, do not leave graffiti or > scribble on rocks. Do not leave > rubbish. > * Do not jump in water before you have checked the bottom (jumping taking > care of more then 90 % of > all canyoning-accidents in Europe). > * Always stay together (after a number of people got lost and even died > after getting separated from > their group). > * Do not use more time then necessary, in case of emergency or bad weather > (for me this is an > important part of every course I give : going fast in a safe way). > * Repect other canyoneers. Do not be the source of a queue.
On the back a list with usefull telephone numbers: tourist info, police, > rescue services, red cross, office of the park services and government. > On the big parking lots of the Sierra de Guara these points are repeated > on > sign boards.
I hope this is of some use, I think most of us will agree that these > points > are all just plain common sense. This list can be made a lot longer - or > very short, depending on the mentality or terrain encountered.
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