Re: First draft of AGPL v3 On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 11:33:44 +0100 Gervase Markham wrote:

> Francesco Poli wrote:
> > :::: Bad: no clear definition of remote users
> > 
> > The term "user" is not clearly defined.  
> 
> Is your point that it is impossible to clearly define, or do you have 
> alternative language?

I cannot have *alternative* language, since there currently is *no*
language to define the term "user" at all...  ;-)

Seriously: I think it's really hard to reasonably define what a remote
user is or should be.  I don't have a proposed definition, because
everytime I try to think of one, I find myself trapped in blurred
boundaries and don't know where to draw the line (or how to get back
home!).

> 
> Do you know how the corresponding clause in the current Affero license
> has historically been interpreted?

No idea...

> 
> > This ambiguity is really problematic, as it implies that there's no
> > clear way to tell whether a modified version supports remote
> > interaction, and hence there's no clear way to tell whether it is
> > subject to the restriction specified by this section.
> 
> It's not that bad. If I turn some AGPLed code into a local 
> graphics-editing application which has no network capabilities, it's 
> fairly clear that it doesn't apply.
> 
> But then, what happens if I access that desktop using remote X? Hmm...

Indeed.

Moreover, what if I turn the AGPLed code into an OS kernel?

> 
> Let's say the clause instead said that anyone who interacts with the 
> work had to get access to the corresponding source, full stop (no 
> network need be involved). Would that be less ambiguous, I wonder?

Less ambiguous, maybe, but worse for sure, since it would extend the
restriction to any use of the modified program.  And all the issues with
kiosks, pay-toll machines, arcade games, and so forth, would come back
(as for the AfferoGPL v1). 

> 
> >> (if your version supports
> >> such interaction) an opportunity to receive the Corresponding
> >Source > of your version by providing access to copy the
> >Corresponding Source > from a network server at no charge.
> > 
> > :::: Bad: use restriction, with a cost associated to it
> > 
> > This restriction compels whoever runs the modified version of the
> > Program to accommodate the source code on the server or,
> > alternatively, to set up and maintain a separate network server to
> > provide source code: this may be a significant cost in some cases.
> 
> I don't understand this argument. Having to provide CDs of source or 
> fulfil the terms of a written offer is also a significant cost, but 
> no-one thinks that makes the GPL non-free.

The restriction in the GPL is about the act of conveying copies of the
work.
The restriction in the AGPL is about *using* the modified work: there's
a cost associated with *use*...

> 
> > This is ultimately a use restriction (from the point of view of
> > whoever runs the modified version of the Program) 
> 
> What does it prevent you using the Program for?

If the source doesn't fit in the server the modified version runs on
(think of small embedded systems, for instance), I have to set up a
separate server to provide source to remote users.
In order to *run* the modified version of the Program!
If I cannot afford setting up a separate server, I cannot use the
modified version on a network!

> 
> > and effectively forbids
> > private use of the modified version on a publicly accessible server.
> > 
> 
> Well, it forbids public use of the modified version on a publicly 
> accessible server. :-) But of course it does - that's the point. But 
> then the GPL forbids giving someone the use of the modified version
> via  giving them a copy without handing them the source code at the
> same  time. That's not a use restriction.

As I said above, the GPL restricts the act of conveying, the AGPL also
restricts the use of modified versions of the Program.


-- 
 http://frx.netsons.org/doc/nanodocs/testing_workstation_install.html
 Need to read a Debian testing installation walk-through?
..................................................... Francesco Poli .
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