"How do you negotiate with somebody who wants to murder your grandmother? Or—more exactly—with somebody whom your voters have been persuaded to believe wants to murder their grandmother?" he asked, alluding to the alleged death panels.
(meta data) TITLE:  Waterloo 12 captures 20 Aug 2011 - 28 Aug 2020 About this capture COLLECTED BY Organization: Internet Archive These crawls are part of an effort to archive pages as they are created and archive the pages that they refer to. That way, as the pages that are referenced are changed or taken from the web, a link to the version that was live when the page was written will be preserved. Then the Internet Archive hopes that references to these archived pages will be put in place of a link that would be otherwise be broken, or a companion link to allow people to see what was originally intended by a page's authors. The goal is to fix all broken links on the web. Crawls of supported "No More 404" sites. Collection: Wikipedia Near Real Time (from IRC) This is a collection of web page captures from links added to, or changed on, Wikipedia pages. The idea is to bring a reliability to Wikipedia outlinks so that if the pages referenced by Wikipedia articles are changed, or go away, a reader can permanently find what was originally referred to. This is part of the Internet Archive's attempt to rid the web of broken links. The Wayback Machine - https://web.archive.org/web/20180306142606/http://www.frumforum.com/waterloo/comment-page-7/ ### search FF Blogger Index About Us Contact Us Register | Log In loans online usa ### RSS Feed Menu David Frum The Scroll Tim Mak Noah Kristula-Green All Authors ### Best of FF Frum on Frum Were the Founding Fathers Libertarians? Two Cheers for the Welfare State Cheap Ray Bans, Ray Ban Sunglasses, Ray Ban Sale. Heed McCain's Warning on Immigration The Cordray Crisis Santorum's Flawed Plan for Working America Seriously, Why Won't Perry Drop Out? Santorum Masters Retail Politics Erzurum masaj Gaziantep masaj Hatay masaj İsparta masaj Kayseri masaj Kocaeli masaj Malatya masaj Manisa masaj Muğla masaj Van masaj # Waterloo #### March 21st, 2010 at 4:59 pm David Frum | 374 Comments | | Print Conservatives and Republicans today suffered their most crushing legislative defeat since the 1960s. It's hard to exaggerate the magnitude of the disaster. Conservatives may cheer themselves that they'll compensate for today's expected vote with a big win in the November 2010 elections. But: (1) It's a good bet that conservatives are over-optimistic about November – by then the economy will have improved and the immediate goodies in the healthcare bill will be reaching key voting blocs. (2) So what? Legislative majorities come and go. This healthcare bill is forever. A win in November is very poor compensation for this debacle now. So far, I think a lot of conservatives will agree with me. Now comes the hard lesson: A huge part of the blame for today's disaster attaches to conservatives and Republicans ourselves. At the beginning of this process we made a strategic decision: unlike, say, Democrats in 2001 when President Bush proposed his first tax cut, we would make no deal with the administration. No negotiations, no compromise, nothing. We were going for all the marbles. This would be Obama's Waterloo – just as healthcare was Clinton's in 1994. Only, the hardliners overlooked a few key facts: Obama was elected with 53% of the vote, not Clinton's 42%. The liberal block within the Democratic congressional caucus is bigger and stronger than it was in 1993-94. And of course the Democrats also remember their history, and also remember the consequences of their 1994 failure. This time, when we went for all the marbles, we ended with none. Could a deal have been reached? Who knows? But we do know that the gap between this plan and traditional Republican ideas is not very big. The Obama plan has a broad family resemblance to Mitt Romney's Massachusetts plan. It builds on ideas developed at the Heritage Foundation in the early 1990s that formed the basis for Republican counter-proposals to Clintoncare in 1993-1994. Barack Obama badly wanted Republican votes for his plan. Could we have leveraged his desire to align the plan more closely with conservative views? To finance it without redistributive taxes on productive enterprise – without weighing so heavily on small business – without expanding Medicaid? Too late now. They are all the law. No illusions please: This bill will not be repealed. Even if Republicans scored a 1994 style landslide in November, how many votes could we muster to re-open the "doughnut hole" and charge seniors more for prescription drugs? How many votes to re-allow insurers to rescind policies when they discover a pre-existing condition? How many votes to banish 25 year olds from their parents' insurance coverage? And even if the votes were there – would President Obama sign such a repeal? We followed the most radical voices in the party and the movement, and they led us to abject and irreversible defeat. There were leaders who knew better, who would have liked to deal. But they were trapped. Conservative talkers on Fox and talk radio had whipped the Republican voting base into such a frenzy that deal-making was rendered impossible. How do you negotiate with somebody who wants to murder your grandmother? Or – more exactly – with somebody whom your voters have been persuaded to believe wants to murder their grandmother? I've been on a soapbox for months now about the harm that our overheated talk is doing to us. Yes it mobilizes supporters – but by mobilizing them with hysterical accusations and pseudo-information, overheated talk has made it impossible for representatives to represent and elected leaders to lead. The real leaders are on TV and radio, and they have very different imperatives from people in government. Talk radio thrives on confrontation and recrimination. When Rush Limbaugh said that he wanted President Obama to fail, he was intelligently explaining his own interests. What he omitted to say – but what is equally true – is that he also wants Republicans to fail. If Republicans succeed – if they govern successfully in office and negotiate attractive compromises out of office – Rush's listeners get less angry. And if they are less angry, they listen to the radio less, and hear fewer ads for Sleepnumber beds. So today's defeat for free-market economics and Republican values is a huge win for the conservative entertainment industry. Their listeners and viewers will now be even more enraged, even more frustrated, even more disappointed in everybody except the responsibility-free talkers on television and radio. For them, it's mission accomplished. For the cause they purport to represent, it's Waterloo all right: ours. Follow David Frum on Twitter: @davidfrum Comments have been reopened! ### Recent Posts by David Frum Where Will All the Smart Kids Go? Has Competition Impoverished America?: Review of "The End of Affluence" by Jeffrey Madrick Anatomy of a Train Wreck: Review of "The System" by Haynes Johnson and David Broder Bookshelf: The Bankruptcy Around the Corner Health Care: Beware the "Little Fix" ### 374 Comments so far born live love die » Coda for the election // Nov 6, 2010 at 10:13 am [...] Bush, has made it better. In March, when Democrats secured enough votes to pass the bill, he castigated fellow conservatives who looked forward to punishing Pelosi and President Obama "with a big win in the November [...] Sure the Democrats lost election night and that's an improvement. Maybe it was worth it for them. « Belligerati // Nov 6, 2010 at 7:32 pm [...] Bush, has made it better. In March, when Democrats secured enough votes to pass the bill, he castigated fellow conservatives who looked forward to punishing Pelosi and President Obama "with a big win in the November [...] The Bill Was More Important Than the Election : Near Earth Object // Nov 7, 2010 at 5:58 pm [...] a lot less power for Democrats to use post-shellacking, but Saletan (and his inspiration Frum) are right. It's like what President Obama has said, "I'd rather be a really good [...] Pelosi's Triumph: Democrats didn't lose the battle of 2010. They won it. : Dems Fightin' Words! // Nov 7, 2010 at 6:05 pm [...] Bush, has made it better. In March, when Democrats secured enough votes to pass the bill, he castigated fellow conservatives who looked forward to punishing Pelosi and President Obama "with a big win in the November [...] // Nov 8, 2010 at 2:07 pm [...] [...] Maddow Blasts Fox from her Glass House at MSNBC - Page 4 - US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum // Nov 9, 2010 at 11:35 am [...] party." And Frum got fired from the American Enterprise Institute for his op-ed piece Waterloo We followed the most radical voices in the party and the movement, and they led us to abject and [...] GOP May Not Have Support To Repeal Health Care Reform | Neon Tommy // Nov 9, 2010 at 2:10 pm [...] Frum, a CNN.com columnist who famously lost his job at a GOP think tank for a column denouncing Republicans' handling of health care legislation, does not believe Republicans will [...] Think Again – "Go Fuck Yourself" // Nov 25, 2010 at 7:50 pm [...] many things but I respect his character. I have watched David defend Bush endlessly over the years. David doesn't agree with the majority of conservatives when it comes to the health care battle of the past year. He [ ... John Boehner says Barack Obama disrespected him during tax-cut extension battle - U.S. Politics Online: A Political Discussion Forum // Dec 13, 2010 at 9:24 am [...] was fired by the right wing think tank American Enterprise Institute because he told the truth. Waterloo | FrumForum At the beginning of this process we made a strategic decision: unlike, say, Democrats in 2001 when [...] John Boehner says Barack Obama disrespected him during tax-cut extension battle - Page 5 - U.S. Politics Online: A Political Discussion Forum // Dec 13, 2010 at 5:51 pm [...] Did you read the op-ed piece that got David Frum fired by the American Enterprise Institute? Waterloo | FrumForum At the beginning of this process we made a strategic decision: unlike, say, Democrats in 2001 when [...] David Frum Would Respect Libertarians More if They'd Quit Worrying About Calorie Labeling and Talk About Medicare Reform - Hit & Run : Reason Magazine // Dec 27, 2010 at 3:16 pm [...] Suderman | December 27, 2010 On the Twitter machine, David Frum, whose response to the passage of ObamaCare was to scold Republicans for not playing along with liberal reformers, [...] // Jan 2, 2011 at 7:07 am [...] spring, for instance, Frum penned a widely publicized column entitled "Waterloo," in which he blamed Fox News, Rush Limbaugh and talk radio for the GOP's failure to [...] Cool Republican Whip images | Right Wing Blog // Jan 5, 2011 at 6:18 pm [...] Republican Water Loo Image by elycefeliz http://www.frumforum.com/waterloo [ ... The Real Problem with Rhetorical Excess | Politics In Vivo - Political and Cultural Commentary, and Whatever Else... // Jan 10, 2011 at 12:30 pm [...] make compromise, and therefore responsible governance, near impossible. After all, as Frum wrote last year, "How do you negotiate with somebody who wants to murder your grandmother? Or – more exactly [...] Problems With Socialized Medicine & Government Healthcare - Page 21 - US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum // Jan 20, 2011 at 11:44 am [...] new bureaucracies. The current private insurance system is not being replaced. Republicans made a collective decision that they would make no deal with the administration. No negotiations, no compromise, nothing. We [...] Affordable Care Act fighting Medicare fraud - US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum // Jan 24, 2011 at 6:46 pm [...] [...] Midtveisevaluering: President i pluss « minerva // Jan 25, 2011 at 8:18 pm [...] påfallende synlig. Dette var muligens en lønnsom taktikk på kort sikt, men synes for meg som en dårlig langsiktig strategi. Jeg skrev om dette da reformen ble vedtatt i [...] Democrats are not very civil - Page 7 - US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum // Jan 29, 2011 at 11:16 am [...] a former Bush II speechwriter who was fired by the American Enterprise Institute for this op-ed. Waterloo | FrumForum "At the beginning of this process we made a strategic decision: unlike, say, Democrats in [...] Florida Judge Rules ObamaCare Unconstitutional - Page 17 - US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum // Feb 1, 2011 at 7:58 am [...] Bush speechwriter David Frum was fired by the right wing think tank AEI for revealing the truth. Waterloo | FrumForum At the beginning of this process we made a strategic decision: unlike, say, Democrats in 2001 when [...] Nice Angry Babies photos | Top 10 Babies // Feb 7, 2011 at 4:43 pm [...] David Frum: I've been on a soapbox for months now about the harm that our overheated talk is doing to us. Yes it mobilizes supporters – but by mobilizing them with hysterical accusations and pseudo-information, overheated talk has made it impossible for representatives to represent and elected leaders to lead. The real leaders are on TV and radio, and they have very different imperatives from people in government. Talk radio thrives on confrontation and recrimination. ... Immelman for Congress » Blog Archive » Extremism Explodes in America // Mar 4, 2011 at 4:17 am [...] "By mobilizing them with hysterical accusations and pseudo-information, overheated talk has made it impossible for representatives to represent and elected leaders to lead." (David Frum, prominent conservative and former speechwriter for George W. Bush, in a piece about the health-care vote titled "Waterloo.") [ ... WISCONSIN:'Constitutional crisis'...Senate Orders Arrest Of Missing Democrats - Page 11 - US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum // Mar 4, 2011 at 11:48 am [...] Mr. Two-face. It was OK with Republicans, because they never had any intent of participating. Waterloo | FrumForum At the beginning of this process we made a strategic decision: unlike, say, Democrats in 2001 when [...] Server Di Posta (pop e smtp) | Top Infoprodotti // Mar 5, 2011 at 11:24 am [...] Waterloo | FrumForum [...] Republican Frum Fired from AEI for Comments Critical of GOP | The Madrigal Maniac // Mar 24, 2011 at 1:42 pm [...] David Frum has been fired from his fellowship at the American Enterprise Institute after writing a blog post critical of the GOP's handling of the health care [... Republican Water Loo | E - Blogs // Mar 26, 2011 at 4:23 pm [...] http://www.frumforum.com/waterloo [...] Hey Libs! - Page 7 - US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum // Mar 27, 2011 at 9:10 am [...] Don't forget the Individual Mandate was originally a Republican idea. Historic obstructionism Waterloo | FrumForum At the beginning of this process we made a strategic decision: unlike, say, Democrats in 2001 when [...] Rush Limbaugh » Blog Archive » Latest Rush Limbaugh News // Mar 29, 2011 at 1:18 pm [...] David Frum: I've been on a soapbox for months now about the harm that our overheated talk is doing to us. Yes it mobilizes supporters – but by mobilizing them with hysterical accusations and pseudo-information, overheated talk has made it impossible for representatives to represent and elected leaders to lead. The real leaders are on TV and radio, and they have very different imperatives from people in government. Talk radio thrives on confrontation and recrimination. ... Latest Rush Limbaugh News » Rush Limbaugh // Apr 1, 2011 at 5:49 am [...] David Frum: I've been on a soapbox for months now about the harm that our overheated talk is doing to us. Yes it mobilizes supporters – but by mobilizing them with hysterical accusations and pseudo-information, overheated talk has made it impossible for representatives to represent and elected leaders to lead. The real leaders are on TV and radio, and they have very different imperatives from people in government. Talk radio thrives on confrontation and recrimination. ... For Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, Sarah Palin, et al | Health // Apr 14, 2011 at 9:08 am [...] David Frum: I've been on a soapbox for months now about the harm that our overheated talk is doing to us. Yes it mobilizes supporters – but by mobilizing them with hysterical accusations and pseudo-information, overheated talk has made it impossible for representatives to represent and elected leaders to lead. The real leaders are on TV and radio, and they have very different imperatives from people in government. Talk radio thrives on confrontation and recrimination. ... Immelman for Congress » Blog Archive » Quick Immigration Conflict Fuse // Apr 17, 2011 at 9:03 pm [...] "By mobilizing them with hysterical accusations and pseudo-information, overheated talk has made it impossible for representatives to represent and elected leaders to lead." (David Frum, prominent conservative and former speechwriter for George W. Bush, in a piece about the health-care vote titled "Waterloo.") [ ... Cool Economics Lesson Plans images | Economics // Apr 22, 2011 at 2:31 pm [...] Republican Water Loo Image by elycefeliz http://www.frumforum.com/waterloo [ ... Latest Waterloo, news – Waterloo // May 6, 2011 at 11:19 pm [...] Waterloo [...] Republican Water Loo | Political News // May 17, 2011 at 11:16 am [...] Republican Water Loo Image by elycefeliz http://www.frumforum.com/waterloo [ ... The DNC trogan Horse the the GOP - Page 6 - US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum // May 29, 2011 at 3:12 pm [...] you ignorant little puppets MUST dismember anyone your handlers deem not marching in goose step. David Frum…Waterloo At the beginning of this process we made a strategic decision: we would make no deal with the [ ... Cure Your Bladder Infection (uti) Fast. // Jun 10, 2011 at 7:02 am [...] Republican Water Loo Image by elycefeliz http://www.frumforum.com/waterloo [ ... Werdict » Cool Men Health images // Jun 22, 2011 at 5:56 pm [...] David Frum: I've been on a soapbox for months now about the harm that our overheated talk is doing to us. Yes it mobilizes supporters – but by mobilizing them with hysterical accusations and pseudo-information, overheated talk has made it impossible for representatives to represent and elected leaders to lead. The real leaders are on TV and radio, and they have very different imperatives from people in government. Talk radio thrives on confrontation and recrimination. ... Barney Fwank Doesn't Know What It Is But Now He Wants To Make It Legal - US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum // Jun 24, 2011 at 7:38 am [...] to LIE, parrot Frank Luntz talking points designed to undermine reform and try to hand Obama his Waterloo. And Sarah Palin should be completely shunned for her egregious LIE of 'death panels' [... The Odious but Strangely Admirable Honesty of Mitch McConnell | Politics In Vivo - Political and Cultural Commentary, and Whatever Else... // Jun 24, 2011 at 4:02 pm [...] reform debate last year, sometimes the legislation gets through anyway. As David Frum noted in a much-discussed post last year, McConnell's insistence on total unanimous Republican opposition didn't keep [...] Republican Water Loo | The new Blogger // Jun 25, 2011 at 5:11 am [...] Republican Water Loo Image by elycefeliz http://www.frumforum.com/waterloo [ ... Senate Republicans stand united against Cordray's nomination | Iowa News // Jul 18, 2011 at 8:41 pm [...] legislation that created the bureau. It's a question that conservative commentator David Frum raised after passage of last year's health-care [... Senate Republicans stand united against Cordray's nomination | The Peter Principle // Jul 18, 2011 at 10:32 pm [...] legislation that created the bureau. It's a question that conservative commentator David Frum raised after passage of last year's health-care law. At the beginning of this process we [...] Immelman for Congress » Blog Archive » Norway Christian Extremism Terrorist Threat // Jul 24, 2011 at 6:22 pm [...] "By mobilizing them with hysterical accusations and pseudo-information, overheated talk has made it impossible for representatives to represent and elected leaders to lead." (David Frum, prominent conservative and former speechwriter for George W. Bush, in an article about the health-care vote titled "Waterloo.") [ ... Radiohead / Jimmy | Down Syndrome Babies // Aug 14, 2011 at 8:32 pm [...] David Frum: I've been on a soapbox for months now about the harm that our overheated talk is doing to us. Yes it mobilizes supporters – but by mobilizing them with hysterical accusations and pseudo-information, overheated talk has made it impossible for representatives to represent and elected leaders to lead. The real leaders are on TV and radio, and they have very different imperatives from people in government. Talk radio thrives on confrontation and recrimination. ... A View To A Kill or, It's The End of the World As We Knew It (And I Feel Fine) // Aug 29, 2011 at 7:06 pm [...] how bad it's gotten: David Frum, the dude who used to write speeches for the worst president we've ever endured, has written [...] Grading Obama's Presidency | Poison Your Mind // Aug 30, 2011 at 1:11 pm [...] David Frum pointed out in his "Waterloo" post that got him excommunicated from the Republican Party and its PR firms such as the American [... Top 3 Common Myths of Capitalism - Page 2 - US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum // Sep 11, 2011 at 9:40 pm [...] W. Bush's speechwriter spilled the beans. It cost him his job at the right wing think tanks AEI. Waterloo | FrumForum At the beginning of this process we made a strategic decision: unlike, say, Democrats in 2001 when [...] Obamas "Jobs Bill" is DOA as it should be!!!!!!! Unfu believeable - Page 32 - US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum // Sep 16, 2011 at 2:08 pm [...] [...] Mandated healthcare. - Page 4 - US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum // Sep 18, 2011 at 11:48 am [...] [...] What They Talk About When They Talk About "Socialism" | Poison Your Mind // Sep 26, 2011 at 7:03 pm [...] in them– as will more or less any proposal by a Democrat, regardless of the substance or historical context of the proposal– they have to resort to name-calling. It's not like today's [ ... A Magnificent Success | Tad Chase // Oct 13, 2011 at 9:52 pm [...] A Magnificent Success October 14, 2011By adminRe: Article: Waterloo | FrumForum [ ... ← Older Comments Newer Comments kocaeli escort escort izmit ## ff shop Welcome to FrumForum. VISIT OUR SHOP
train07250
Death panel
Use after August 2009.
Palin expanded her "death panel" attack to target the precursor of the Independent Payment Advisory Board (IPAB), a potential cost-cutting mechanism for Medicare, in September 2009. After the National Commission on Fiscal Responsibility and Reform released its recommendation to strengthen the IPAB, which had passed as part of the Affordable Care Act (Obamacare), she later charged that the board was " 'death panel'-like". FactCheck found her characterization of the board wrong on three counts. Representative Phil Roe (Republican-Tennessee), who has twice sponsored bills to eliminate the IPAB, said he would associate the term with the IPAB. Roe was described by "The Washington Post" as "a kindred soul by the medical industry" in part for his legislative efforts against the IPAB and a "magnet during the last election for more than $90,000 in contributions from medical professionals from across the country". Rep. Phil Gingrey (Republican-Georgia), an OB/GYN, issued a statement, described by PolitiFact as outrageous, that was in line with the "death panels" narrative. 
 In March 2010, Democratic Rep. Barney Frank (MA) was quoted as saying "There are going to be death panels enacted by the Congress this year, but they're death panels for large financial institutions" and later in the same year he used the term in reference to authority under the Dodd–Frank Bill. Later that month, after the Affordable Care Act as amended by the Senate passed the House, conservative commentator David Frum made a widely-read post to his blog criticizing Republicans for their steadfast opposition to the bill over the previous year and a half. There had been congressional Republicans willing to work with Democrats, he said, but they had refrained from doing so out of fear of political reprisals from the Tea Party and other elements of the conservative base that had been regularly encouraged by talk radio and Fox News to believe the worst of the bill.