anthony rota (nipissingtimiskaming, lib.)): I call this meeting to order. Welcome to the sixth meeting of the House of Commons Special Committee on the COVID-19 pandemic. members that if you want to speak English, you should be on the English channel; if you want to speak French, you should be on the French channel; and should you wish to alternate between the two languages, as I just did, you should change the channel to the language that you are speaking, each time you switch languages. In addition, please direct your remarks through the chair and speak slowly and clearly at all times to help our interpreters. I recommend the headset for your fellow members, but also for the interpreters as it gets loud, up and down, and it squeaks. I understand that there are no ministerial announcements today, so we will proceed to presenting petitions, for a period not exceeding 15 minutes. I would like to remind members that any petition presented during a meeting of the special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions. World Maternal Mental Health Day took place last week, and today I'd like to take a moment to present a very important petition on behalf of the Canadian Perinatal Mental Health Collaborative. Whereas perinatal mood and anxiety disorders are the most common obstetrical complication, whereas in Canada and worldwide 20% of women and 10% of men suffer from a perinatal mental illness, resulting in an annual economic cost to Canada of approximately $11 billion, and whereas the U.K., Australia and parts of the U.S. have perinatal mental health strategies and screening guidelines in place and Canada does not, the Canadian Perinatal Mental Health Collaborative is calling upon the House of Commons in Parliament assembled to create a national perinatal mental health strategy that will provide direction, policy and funding to develop specialized, comprehensive perinatal mental health care services, which include universal screening and timely access to treatment for all women and men during pregnancy and the postpartum period. If we were in the House now, as May is Cystic Fibrosis Awareness Month, one of the days this month we would all be wearing yellow roses in sympathy and solidarity with those who suffer from what is the number one disease killer in Canada of young people. The petitioners have asked us to look at the situation with the Patented Medicine Prices Review Board, which is scheduled to go through some important and potentially detrimental regulatory changes very soon. They ask that the amendments to the Patented Medicine Prices Review Board be rescinded, as these will restrict Canadians from receiving life-saving medications for cystic fibrosis and other illnesses, but in particular, a medicine called Trikafta, which can have the effect of treating cystic fibrosis in the case of 90% of cystic fibrosis sufferers. They ask the government to work with the provinces to find a strategy to jointly allow for the delivery of this life-saving medicine to Canadians across the country and to take a leadership role in negotiating a price for gene modulators throughout all the provinces of Canada. Petitioners in my community point out in this petition, which, of course, predates the pandemic, that the family doctor shortage is severe in this country. This problem is particularly profound in more rural areas, including, as the petitioners reference, the community in which I live, Sydney, British Columbia. The petitioners call on the government to work with provinces and territories to find a collaborative, holistic solution so that every Canadian has a family doctor and we address the family doctor shortage. I'm presenting a timely petition today that emphasizes the concerns constituents in my riding of MissionMatsquiFraser Canyon have with the Liberal government's inherently flawed and undemocratic approach to firearms legislation and regulation. The petitioners call upon the Government of Canada to stop targeting law-abiding firearms owners; to cancel all plans to confiscate firearms legally owned by federally licensed RCMP-vetted Canadians; to focus taxpayer dollars where they will actually increase public safety, which is on keeping at-risk youth from being involved in gangs and on anti-gang enforcement; and to provide our men and women in uniform at the Canada Border Services Agency with the resources they need to stop the flow of illegal guns into this country. Through this petition, my constituents take issue with how the Liberal government continues to target law-abiding firearms owners instead of the gangs, drug traffickers and illegal weapons smugglers responsible for the violence in our communities. They note that the use of the phrase military-style assault rifle is purely political posturing, as the term is undefined in Canadian law. They also draw attention to the numerous inaccuracies about current firearms legislation and regulation the chair: I'd like to remind the honourable members that this is a concise prcis of what a petition says, not a speech. It's a huge honour to table e-petition 2512, which was signed by 1,198 petitioners, primarily from the province of Nova Scotia. The Province of Nova Scotia invited multinational companies to scope out and develop expansive open-net salmon farming operations. The petitioners cite that the expansion would increase environmental degradation, as seen in similar aquaculture operations in British Columbia, Newfoundland, Norway, Vietnam and elsewhere in the world. It also, they cite, would pose risks to native fish stocks, pollute coastal ecosystems, impair at-risk wild Atlantic salmon, and threaten established fisheries and tourism operations. They also raise concerns that open-net fish farming would not create significant employment and would undermine existing lobster and other fisheries. They are calling on the government to uphold Bill C-68 and species-at-risk legislation, protect our oceans, ban expansion of open-net finfish aquaculture in our oceans, work to phase out any existing open-net fish farming operations currently in place and, lastly, invest in land-based, closed-containment finfish aquaculture. I want to thank these petitioners for fighting for clean oceans, for their local economy and for the well-being of Nova Scotia. It calls upon the House of Commons to commit to upholding the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples and the calls to action from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada by immediately halting all existing and planned construction of the Coastal GasLink project on Wet'suwet'en territory, ordering the RCMP to dismantle its exclusion zone and stand down, scheduling nation-to-nation talks between the Wet'suwet'en nation and the federal and provincial governmentssomething that has already happened, thankfullyand prioritizing the real implementation of the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. yasmin ratansi (don valley east, lib.): Thank you, Mr. The petitioners are asking that the Government of Canada not provide any financial assistance to Canadian airlines until they promptly provide full refunds for flights that were cancelled due to COVID-19. dan albas (central okanagansimilkameennicola, cpc): Thank you, Mr. Today we've learned that federal workers have been told to ignore obvious signs of fraud when it comes to applying for government benefits. Can the Prime Minister confirm that 200,000 applications have been flagged as potentially fraudulent? right hon. We moved very quickly to get the Canada emergency response benefit out, to get the wage subsidy out and to help Canadians in this unprecedented situation. Chair, can the Prime Minister confirm that the instruction has been given to federal employees to ignore these 200,000 applications being flagged as potentially fraudulent? This is important. Our decision from the very beginning was to get the help out to people and figure out, with retroactive action if necessary, where and when there may have been fraudulent use. justin trudeau: Again, in this unprecedented situation, our focus has been on helping as many people as possible, as quickly as possible. Other parties might have made a different choice had they been in government, but our focus was getting help to people when they needed it as quickly as possible and cleaning it up afterwards. Did the Prime Minister or his minister sign off on this memo that was issued by the deputy minister, yes or no? right hon. Chair, we have been focused entirely on getting help to Canadians when they need it, and that has meant that yes, there will be things we will need to clean up after the fact and work to fix, but getting that help into Canadians' pockets during this pandemic was our priority. Will he at least then commit to investigating every individual case of fraud, or will he write them off, as the story said? right hon. Chair, in this unprecedented situation Canadians have lost their jobs; they've lost their paycheques; they don't know how they're going to be able to support their loved ones and pay for their groceries. We made a decision as a country that we would be there for them and that has been and will continue to be our priority. Will he commit as a government to enforce the rule of law and to enforce the attestation that says that if someone commits fraud, the fraud will be pursued? right hon. All along we've been told fraud would be detected through audits after the fact, and we expect that to happen. justin trudeau: When we made the determination that we needed to move quickly to help Canadians, we knew there would be a need to clean up after the fact, to go after fraudulent cases. Our priority now and in the coming months is to ensure Canadians get the support they need, and our economy comes roaring back. gabriel ste-marie (joliette, bq): Mr.Chair, yesterday, the Prime Minister announced the large employer emergency financing facility. One of those conditions forces companies not to resort to tax evasion or tax avoidance through tax havens. Excellent! Unfortunately, I quickly became disillusioned because it is more about abusive tax evasion and avoidance. Companies that legally take advantage of tax havens to avoid paying their taxes will have access to the large employer emergency financing facility. justin trudeau: Mr.Chair, we will always be there to counter tax evasion and tax avoidance. In the current situation, our priority is to help workers across the country who could lose their jobs or who have lost their jobs. gabriel ste-marie: Mr.Chair, I'm delighted to hear the Prime Minister say that there's no tolerance for tax avoidance. justin trudeau: Mr.Chair, when we announced the large employer emergency funding facility, we recognized that those who wanted to receive tax dollars had to have paid their fair share of taxes. That's why we're putting in place measures to carefully assess the tax structures of these businesses before we loan money to them. gabriel ste-marie: Mr.Chair, sometimes a bank will relocate its most profitable activities carried out in Canada and register them in a subsidiary in the Bahamas, Barbados or another tax haven. Does the Prime Minister consider this bank to be paying its fair share of taxes in Canada? right hon. justin trudeau: Mr.Chair, we will assess applications for the large employer emergency funding facility on a case-by-case basis. Before we provide any money, we're going to make sure that whoever wants to access these funds is transparent about how the money is being managed, including internationally. Consumers are paying more and more with their credit cards, which allows contactless payments in shops, not to mention online shopping. This benefits Visa and Mastercard, which charge appallingly high user fees, known as interchange fees. These are almost 10times higher than in Europe and Australia, and it costs our merchants a fortune. Can the Prime Minister follow the example of Europe and Australia by capping interchange fees at0.3%? right hon. We have worked with the big banks and the financial industry to ensure that people who need it have access to the help they need. Right now, we're sending money to consumers across the country who need it to get through this crisis. A credit card company, such as Visa and Mastercard, that charges a fee of 2.5%to3% per transaction undermines the merchant's profit margin and gets richer at the expense of consumers. I invite the Prime Minister to follow the example of Europe and Australia by capping these fees at0.3%. justin trudeau: Mr.Chair, we continue to work with financial institutions and the big banks to help consumers during this exceptional and difficult situation. Instead of providing a universal direct payment for all, the government has decided to implement a complicated program that leaves many people behind. A single parent with four school-age children lost her spousal and child support due to COVID-19. Will the Prime Minister step in and fix this gap so that the single parents and their children can get the support they need during this pandemic? right hon. Chair, to correct the honourable member by pointing out that we actually moved in the most rapid and simplest possible way in providing income replacement to millions upon millions of Canadians who needed it through the Canada emergency response benefit. However, as the member points out, when one moves quickly and efficiently, there will be gaps, and that's why we've been working diligently to try to fill those gaps. jenny kwan: While the Minister of Employment has been aware of this for three weeks and says she is looking into it, there's still been no action. The truth of the matter is that single parents and their children who depend on spousal support and child maintenance are not getting support. justin trudeau: We recognize the particular challenge faced by families, single parents and families with young children, which is why we increased the amount of the Canada child benefit to be able to support people in this particular moment. On top of that, we have looked to fill further gaps that have existed with the Canada emergency response benefit. Well over seven million Canadians have access to CERB, and we will continue to work with them ms. Across the country there is no national standard to address the homelessness crisis amidst this pandemic, leaving communities at heightened risk from COVID-19. Canadians who are homeless or living in substandard housing have no access to bathroom facilities for basic hygiene. government has implemented an initiative to house some of the homeless population in empty hotels in the short term, support from the federal government is needed to secure permanent solutions post-COVID-19. Will the Prime Minister commit to providing matching funds and take the right to adequate housing seriously? right hon. justin trudeau: I know that the honourable member wouldn't want to inadvertently mislead the House. The fact is, the federal government almost immediately sent significant resources, hundreds of millions of dollars, to shelters across the country to enable them to create facilities, including renting new spaces, to be able to house homeless people without increasing the danger of the spread of COVID-19. I recognize there's always more to do, but as we demonstrated with our national housing strategy, we are serious about fighting homelessness and supporting vulnerable Canadians, and we will continue to do that. Cutting chronic homelessness by 50% over the next decade is not good enough, and that is this Prime Minister's national housing strategy. Will the government stop just making empty promises and ensure that every Canadian has the right to housing? Will he top up the support for provinces to at least match their funds? right hon. Chair, cutting chronic homelessness by 50% is an ambitious goal that no one else has ever been able to do as a government, and we are well on track for it. I would suggest that the member opposite not dismiss that as an empty promise, because we have demonstrated actions on it. jenny kwan: I would remind the Prime Minister that it was the federal Liberals who eliminated the national affordable housing program in 1993, so we have this homeless crisis today as a result of the Liberals. We in Vancouver East have the third-largest urban indigenous population in the country, yet we got less than 2% of the pandemic urban indigenous housing funding. We have moved forward, both through the Minister of Indigenous Services and the Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations, to address the challenges facing urban aboriginal populations. We will continue to work with them, recognizing that they are among the most vulnerable people in Canada who deserve the right support from all orders of government, and we will be there to support them increasingly in the coming years. Chair, I'm hearing in my riding of PortageLisgar that individuals who are dealing with Service Canada through the mail are experiencing delays. In fact, one of my constituents sent documents, including a doctor's note, two months ago on March 12 and is now being told that she must resend them because they've never been opened. Can the government tell us whether this is a widespread problem, and how are they dealing with unopened mail at Service Canada? the chair: The honourable minister. Chair, I want to assure the honourable member that we are doing everything that we can in Service Canada to meet the expectations of Canadians. In the context of the COVID-19 pandemic, we have had unprecedented volumes, but we have redeployed thousands of staff to front-line services by phone and by other means. We had to close a number of the centres because of COVID-19 concerns and the safety and well-being of Canadians. candice bergen: Is the minister aware whether this is a widespread problem? Is this happening rarely, or frequently? I'm hearing about it. I know, from many MPs, we are at the front lines of dealing with and helping constituents who are not only wanting to get support but also are trying to get programs unrelated to COVID-19. Chair, the Iver Johnson single-shot rifle is a standard farm gun used by many farmers in my riding, in fact, passed down from generation to generation in some cases. Why are the Liberals making this gun illegal? What's the purpose of banning this particular farm rifle? the chair: The honourable minister. I just wish to advise the member that we worked very closely with the Canadian firearms program, with law enforcement and with their firearms verification to identify the makes, models and variants of nine rifles, all of which had in their earliest provenance a design for military use, for soldiers to use in combat. We're hearing from front-line officers that they are concerned about gangs, drug dealers and illegal weapons being smuggled across the border. They are not concerned with these types of farm rifles that are being used by our farmers and, in some cases, hunters. Chair, we'd like to see the evidence on why the Liberals are once again targeting law-abiding Canadians, ignoring gangsters and drug dealers. bill blair: It's a great opportunity, I think, when the member opposite says what the police are saying. The Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police declared that military assault rifles were produced for the sole purpose of killing people in large numbers and urged the government to enact legislation to ban all military assault rifles, except for law enforcement and military purposes. They said, In our view, these weapons have no place in our communities and should be reserved for use by Canada's military and law enforcement. Chair, we've seen this before, where the Liberals introduced a long-gun registry that cost billions of dollars and did absolutely nothing to stop violent crimes. bill blair: Actually, what I'm saying, and what our regulations say very clearly, is that weapons that were designed not for hunting and not for sport purposes but for soldiers to use in combat to kill other soldiers have no place in Canadian society. Is it true that Canada Revenue Agency employees who process applications for the Canada emergency response benefit, or CERB, have been asked to send the payment even if fraud had been detected, as was pointed out in a national media report today? hon. diane lebouthillier (minister of national revenue): Mr.Chair, our government considers these to be very difficult times for Canadians. We're going to do everything we can to support them by helping them pay for their housing and their groceries. alain rayes: I repeat my question, which is extremely simple: Is it true that the Canada Revenue Agency sent a memo to its employees asking them to ignore the fraudsters and still send the CERB payments?? hon. diane lebouthillier: I'll finish my response, which was interrupted: Nearly 7.8million Canadians have applied for the Canada emergency response benefit. alain rayes: Yes or no: Did the Canada Revenue Agency send a memo to its employeeswho are doing an exceptional job, I'd like to point outso that they would ignore the 200,000potential cases of fraud that they detected? hon. The federal government website clearly states that if an employee returns to work, the employee must pay back the CERB. Can the Prime Minister tell us whether employees who decide to return to work have to pay back the full $2,000per month, or only $500for week of the month? hon. diane lebouthillier: As I mentioned, we believe that Canadians are going through a very difficult time, and we need to support them. That's what our government is committed to, and that's what we'll continue to do. alain rayes: Mr.Chair, the extremely simple question I am asking the Minister comes from companies and workers. None of the officials dares to answer it when we call on technical matters, even though they are supposed to give us information that we can pass on to the public with complete transparency. If an employee is called back to workwhich is perfectly fineagrees to do so and wants to reimburse the CERB, must he reimburse $500for each week he works during the month, or the entire $2,000? hon. Chair, I can clarify that Service Canada will work closely with anybody who transitions either from the CERB to the wage subsidy or from the CERB back to employment to ensure that there's no overpayment, but of course that there's no undue hardship on the individual. It seems to me that my question is not complicated: do people have to reimburse $500for each week they work in a month, or the full monthly amount of $2,000? hon. That's why Service Canada is reaching out to individuals to make it as seamless as possible for them. If an employer complies with the hygiene conditions, can employees still refuse to return to work, and therefore continue to receive the CERB? hon. Chair, I can assure all Canadians that at the same time as employees have a right to refuse work and employers have an obligation to ensure healthy and safe workplaces, we want all people to be able to go back to work and feel safe. There are established processes and federal and provincial labour processes for refusal to work, and at the end of the day the CERB is there for workers who aren't working due to COVID-19. jamie schmale (haliburtonkawartha lakesbrock, cpc): Thank you, Chair. The Wet'suwet'en elected chiefs and community members have been excluded from negotiations on a memorandum of understanding affecting land rights and titles. The elected chiefs have issued a press release asking for the government to halt the joint announcement scheduled for May 14 on the MOU until the community has had a chance to look at and understand how the MOU will affect them. Will the minister agree with the democratically elected chiefs and the Wet'suwet'en people they represent and delay any announcement until proper consultation can be completed? the chair: The honourable minister. carolyn bennett (minister of crown-indigenous relations): I want to reassure the member that communication is ongoing with and between our partners on how to go forward on implementing the Wet'suwet'en rights and title with a Wet'suwet'en-led solution. We encourage the leaders to continue their ongoing, necessary and important conversations with their community on how they want to proceed on a path toward implementing their rights and title. As we work to rebuild Canada's relationship with the Wet'suwet'en, we need to give them space for these important discussions. jamie schmale: Minister, is that a yes that the signing will be delayed until the elected chiefs have a chance to look at the agreement? hon. jamie schmale: The current health crisis should not be used as an opportunity to sideline the Wet'suwet'en people and their elected chiefs. The federal government should be bringing the community together rather than actively excluding Wet'suwet'en members. The chiefs are so concerned that they are now calling for the resignation of the Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations for failure to engage in proper consultations, which has stoked divisions within the community. Will the minister reconsider and put in place a consultation process that honours both their traditional house system and the governance responsibilities of elected chiefs and councils? hon. carolyn bennett: Yet again, it's very important the member understand the engagement must take place and be led by the Wet'suwet'en nation. That means the elected chiefs and the hereditary chiefs need to work with all clan members as they determine how they wish to work with Canada and the Province of British Columbia to implement the rights and title of the Wet'suwet'en people. jamie schmale: I agree that the Wet'suwet'en should have the opportunity to look at the proposed agreement, but we are still seeing news coming out of the elected chiefs and the people they represent that they have not had a thorough chance to look at this proposed agreement. carolyn bennett: I think the member will agree that there's a lot more work to do with all the parties. I believe, in terms of the kind of engagement that has taken place in the feast houses and the notification that took place even before COVID-19, that the work is under way and it will have to be Wet'suwet'en-led in terms of what eventually will be their choice as to how they implement their rights and title. Chair, for two weeks now the Liberals on the indigenous affairs committee have shut down Conservatives and witnesses every time we mention the word Wet'suwet'en. They don't want to talk about the issue, an issue that is very much aggravated by the COVID-19 crisis. I don't believe that there's, at any time, an interest in shutting down discussion or debate. I think, though, that at the COVID committee the issues facing indigenous communities, first nations, Inuit and Mtis around COVID-19 are very important to them. jamie schmale: I would argue with the minister and challenge her to talk to her committee members. Each time Conservatives have brought up the topic of the Wet'suwet'en and the situation happening with the elected chiefs and the people they represent, we have been shut down every single time. carolyn bennett: Again, in a committee, it is the work of the committee and the decision of the committee. I believe the chair and all members want first nations, Inuit and Mtis to be able to keep their communities safe during COVID-19. It has been three months since this pandemic started and the Liberals just got around to announcing help for seniors. I've just had the opportunity to introduce additional measures today wherein we are introducing a one-time special payment for those who receive OAS. stephanie kusie: Nearly two months into living in some form of isolation, watching their retirement savings take a hit and having to take additional health precautions due to the COVID-19 pandemic, eligible seniors are set to receive a one-time payment of up to $500. deb schulte: I just want to make sure that my honourable colleague remembers that we have already given a GST top-up of almost $375 for single seniors and over $500 for couples. This is in addition to what we've just done today where, as you said, it's $500. stephanie kusie: According to Abacus Data, 69% of Canadians feel that there will be a second wave in the pandemic, and 52% of Canadians believe that there is a shortage of medical equipment, including personal protective equipment. Given these surprising figures, what is the government's plan to bring in enough personal protective equipment, should there be a second wave of the pandemic? hon. anita anand (minister of public services and procurement): Our government is aggressively buying life-saving equipment and supplies that Canada needs, from a diverse range of suppliers around the world and here at home. We're working directly with businesses across the country to rapidly scale up domestic production capacity to meet current and future needs. At this point, our primary focus is on front-line health care professionals, but we are also exploring federal government assistance in areas of essential services so that PPE exists where workers need it. stephanie kusie: According to Public Services and Procurement Canada, despite 1.8 billion units of PPE being procured, less than 6% of N95 respirator orders have been filled, less than 8% of surgical mask orders have been filled, and just 1.4% of face shield orders have been filled. anita anand: Let me start by saying that we are working in an incredibly difficult and competitive global environment and are procuring millions of items: face shields, gowns, hand sanitizer, and N95 surgical masks, and ventilators every single day. There is a delay in the production of these goods, but we have had many deliveries coming into Canada, including over two million face shields the chair: We'll have to go back to Mrs. stephanie kusie: A national security expert from the University of Ottawa has said that the national emergency strategic stockpile has failed in the current crisis, resulting in some provinces such as Saskatchewan using expired PPE, and provinces such as Alberta using faulty PPE that cause rashes and headaches. What is the government doing to expedite procurement and to counter the risk of faulty PPE, given that 34 of the suppliers are from China, which has already supplied significant faulty PPE? hon. anita anand: I will start by saying that we have multiple supply chains operating at the same time, from China, and domestically, and from the United States and other countries around the world. Our first priority is to make sure that we get safe, effective equipment and supplies into the hands of our front-line health care workers. Given the global supply chains and their competitive nature, this is an ongoing project and we are having success for our front-line health care workers. Ten weeks ago the Minister of Fisheries, in responding to my question in question period, acknowledged that the lobster fishery was being negatively affected by the COVID-19 pandemic and was facing losses of up to 95% of its Asian markets. Chair, on April 28 I asked the minister what she was doing to support harvesters who were left out of the $62.5 million aid package. Can the minister tell us what the government's plan is to directly support seafood harvesters? the chair: The honourable minister. bernadette jordan (minister of fisheries, oceans and the canadian coast guard): Thank you, Mr. We know that the fish and seafood sector has been extremely adversely affected because of COVID-19. We've started to put measures in place to address the issue with the $62.5 million for processors, as well as to make sure that the CERB is available for seasonal workers as well as people who have run out of their fishery EI, but we know that more needs to be done. The fishery enterprises are uniquely structured, which is why we're looking at measures to address the concerns they have. Chair, most fishermen are not eligible for the wage subsidy program due to the stipulation that it cannot be used for employees who are related to their employer. Many fishermen have their wives, their sons, their uncles or their fathers working for them, and sometimes it's the whole family on the boat. Can the minister explain what the government's plan is to support fishermen who do not fit into any actual program and who desperately need direct financial help from the federal government to survive? hon. Chair, we know that, because of the unique structure of fishing enterprises, they are not eligible for many of the supports we have put in place. We have made changes to the CERB to make sure that people who run out of the fishers EI are eligible as well as seasonable workers. We have put in place measures to address processors' concerns so that harvesters continue to have a place to sell their product. I am working with my cabinet colleagues to find solutions, and I hope I will have more to say about that very soon. chris d'entremont: In recent weeks, lobster fishermen in the gulf region of the Maritimes were shocked to read an additional subsection of regulations that was added to their fishing conditions for the 2021 fishing season. This addition was for a catch limitation or quota to which none of the harvesters or advisory members were privy. Can the minister tell us how these detailed regulations managed to get added without her authorization, and can licence-holders expect to see these same regulations in their conditions when their season gets going in the future? hon. Chair, I want to thank the people who brought to my attention the conditions that were put on licences in the gulf. Chair, on Wednesday, February 26, after the death of 23-year-old Chantelle Lindsay from Nova Scotia due to complications from cystic fibrosis, I asked the Prime Minister whether the government was going to make Trikafta, which might have saved Chantelle's life, available to Canadians. Now that almost 12 weeks have passed, we understand that Vertex Pharmaceuticals has not yet applied to Health Canada for study. Many of my Conservative colleagues and I have recently sent a letter to the minister asking for an update on how we support those negotiations with Vertex. Can the Minister of Health tell us when this drug will be available to CF patients in Canada? the chair: Honourable minister, the floor is yours. In fact, the majority of people who have applied through the special access program to get access to the drug have received access. chris d'entremont: Mr.Chair, the tourism season is already deeply affected by COVID-19. In my constituency, tens of thousands of tourists use the ferry between Bar Harbor, Maine, and Yarmouth, Nova Scotia. What is the government planning to do to help the ferry to survive and to resume service next season, if the borders remain closed this summer? hon. mlanie joly (minister of economic development and official languages): I have had the opportunity to speak to my colleague Mr.d'Entremont about solutions to assist people in the tourism sector all over the country, and particularly in the Atlantic region. In light of the new funding for the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency, ACOA, I will be happy to work with him and with the leaders of the tourism sector. simon-pierre savard-tremblay (saint-hyacinthebagot, bq): Thank you, Mr.Chair. Despite all the upheaval it causes, the crisis we are experiencing, considerable in scope though it is, can also be an opportunity to begin a transition. Many of us in Quebec feel that, when a company knocks on the state's door to ask for assistance, it is totally legitimate for the state to impose conditions before providing its support. We in the Bloc Qubcois feel that there should be a limit, a ceiling, on the assistance provided to large companies, in order to avoid abuses in executive compensation. A few years ago, after the Bombardier affair in QuebecI will not dwell on that because Quebecers are all too familiar with itthree of the four political parties that sat in the National Assembly and that still sit these took a position of that kind. The United States, which, you will agree, is no bastion of socialism, has already implemented similar policies for periods of crisis. According to a report published by the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives on January2, the 100highest-paid CEOs in Canada earned 227times more in 2018 than the average worker. Given that inflation was then at 2.3%, it can be said that there was practically no increase. By contrast, the salary increase for CEOs in the same period was 18%, even in cases where the companies suffered losses. Does the government intend to put a ceiling on executive compensation to ensure that they are not the only ones to profits from the support at this time of crisis? The question is clear and I am asking you to give me a clear answer. If I don't get one, I am going to have to demand a new version of the Clarity Act. We know that our approach has to help small and medium-size companies, but also large companies in order to provide a bridge to the end of the crisis. Yes, we do want to make sure that the facility is available for companies that are going to continue to support our economy, to protect their employees, and to make a significant contribution to our communities. We are going to consider the rules and conditions that are needed in order for the facility to be available to the companies, the operations and the employees. Of course, conditions are required to ensure that the facility is available for operations, not for dividends or share buybacks, for example. sgro (humber riverblack creek, lib.): Thank you very much, Mr. In my own riding of Humber RiverBlack Creek, 30% of the population are 65 or older. Can the minister please tell us what our government is doing to ensure that vulnerable seniors get the support they need during this very difficult time? the chair: The honourable minister. Seniors have faced increased costs due to the COVID-19 pandemic, and our government today has responded to that with additional action. We announced a one-time, tax-free payment of $300 for seniors eligible for OAS and an additional $200 for seniors eligible for GIS. This means there will be up to $500 for the most vulnerable seniors to help them with their financial security to get through this challenging time. Beyond this, we announced $20 million to expand the new horizons for seniors program to kick-start initiatives and services that will help seniorsfor example, to get grocery deliveries right to their door and to stay connected. We've worked tirelessly on this as well as on other recent measures like the GST credit to help the most vulnerable seniors. I know she's been working extremely hard to make sure that we get some additional announcements over and above all of the ones we have already made, so congratulations. Seniors across the country have been communicating with us and letting us know their needs, and we have been responding. It's always a privilege to have a chance to speak on issues that matter to Canadians, whether it's from the floor of the House of Commons or, indeed, from my house here in Nova Scotia. Like my colleagues, I'd like to thank the staff of the House of Commons for their continued work to make sure that we have this forum to be able to continue the democratic process. I would also quickly like to thank my staff both here locally in KingsHants and in Ottawa for their continued work for my constituents. We have the Kentville Research and Development Centre and the Hants County agricultural exhibition, the longest-standing exhibition in North America. Can the minister specifically provide an update to the House on the measures our government has taken on those two particular commodity groups that are so important in my riding? the acting chair (mr. Last Tuesday I was proud to announce our emergency processing fund for a total of $77.5 million, $50 million for the surplus food program and $125 million through AgriRecovery to support our beef and pork producers. Concerning the dairy sector in particular, I'm hopeful that tomorrow we will get the support of all of the parties to be able to respond to their request for an increase in their loan capacity from $300 million to $500 million. I would like to encourage all farmers to apply to the business risk management programs, including AgriStability, for which we have improved some of the mechanisms. bruce stanton): We'll go on with questions, but I'll also just ask Mr. brian masse (windsor west, ndp): During the COVID-19 pandemic, the State of Michigan has become an epicentre of the outbreak. The border communities of Sarnia and Windsor have higher per capita infection rates than the rest of the province. With the premiers of B.C., Quebec and Ontario opposing the opening of the border at this time, will the restrictions be extended, or is the Prime Minister discussing changing the restrictions? the acting chair (mr. chrystia freeland (deputy prime minister and minister of intergovernmental affairs): Let me assure the honourable member that, first and foremost, all decisions about Canada's border are taken by Canadians and with the health and safety of Canadians first and foremost in mind. When it comes to the current agreement's coming up next week, we are in very close conversations with Americans about next steps. chrystia freeland: Let me just be clear that I didn't speak about any changes; I spoke about a very collaborative conversation with our American neighbours about next steps. chrystia freeland: I found during the NAFTA negotiations that negotiations are best not conducted in public, but let me just assure Canadians that the health and safety of Canadians is first and foremost. chrystia freeland: Let me just say that I think the honourable member was actually seeking to know what exactly is being discussed with our American partners. brian masse: Will more information be shared between your government and the American government on Canadians and Americans crossing the border on both sides? hon. chrystia freeland: I'm not sure what the member is alluding to, but let me just say that the current arrangements are working extremely well. brian masse: With border communities having more rates of infection, will they receive additional PPE and financial assistance to deal with the loosening of current border restrictions that is being discussed? hon. chrystia freeland: Let me just emphasize to the honourable member that on a couple of occasions he has implied that a loosening of the current restrictions is being discussed. I'll move to the large commercial banks who are profiteering off or squeezing Canadians during this public crisis. Will the government use its statutory powers and force the banks to offer the credit card relief that Vancity has already done? the acting chair (mr. I would like to say that we recognize the challenges that Canadians face, especially with issues like credit card rates. Most recently, during the COVID-19 crisis, we've negotiated with the banks and encouraged them, and they have come out with reductions in their credit card fees that are significant, and deferrals for customers mr. brian masse: Will you use your statutory powers, yes or no, to do what Vancity has done to help Canadian consumers? hon. We're continuing to work together with banks to make sure that they are giving the kind of support necessary to their customers, and we've seen actions in this regard, supporting customers. brian masse: Why do banks have to profit at higher interest rates on Canadian consumer and retailer exchange rates during COVID-19? hon. Chair, I think it's important to clarify that banks have come forward and given deferrals to customers in trouble and cut their interest by half  Mr. brian masse: Will the minister use his powers if the banks continue to charge Canadian consumers interest rates that are higher than Vancity's? hon. Chair, again, we will continue to work with banks to ensure that they're supporting their customers. What banks have done on credit cards by cutting their fees in half is an important nod in that direction. jacques gourde (lvislotbinire, cpc): Thank you, Mr.Chair. Quebec is Canada's biggest producer of hydroelectricity, a renewable energy that is the pride of the Quebec nation. The only problem is that it seems to be a tough sell west of Quebec, in Ontario, for instance. Will the government show leadership and allow Canada's provinces to share renewable energy through an energy corridor, as we proposed? hon. jacques gourde: Mr.Chair, Canada's dairy processors have been hit hard by the COVID-19 crisis and the new CanadaU.S.Mexico Agreement, or CUSMA. Will the government commit to granting import permits under CUSMA to Canada's dairy processors, not retailers directly? hon. chrystia freeland: Mr.Chair, I can assure you that dairy producers will receive fair compensation. That is important to Canada and Quebec, and I'm very pleased that we were able to do that. Canada's dairy processors invest hundreds of millions of dollars a year to bring high-quality products to consumers, while contributing $19billion to GDP. Will the minister commit to giving Canada's dairy processors import permits, instead of encouraging American multinationals? hon. chrystia freeland: Mr.Chair, I'd like to thank the member for his question. I fully understand, as we all do, the important role processors play in our system and our country. I can assure the members of the House that we will continue to work with Canadian processors as the agreement comes into force. jacques gourde: Mr.Chair, when it comes to the COVID-19 crisis, what Canadians will remember is that those with access to reliable high-speed Internet will have fared better, feeling less financial strain, than those who are cut off from the rest of the world. Is the government ready to invest in making high-speed Internet available to all Canadians, no matter where they live in the country? hon. jacques gourde: Mr.Chair, the current economic situation could lead to the disappearance of Canada's tourism industry. The pain will be felt by thousands of Canadians, who will have to find new jobs in order to survive. Is the government going to protect the tourism-based economy by investing in tourism infrastructure and upgrades to ensure Canada's tourist regions are ready when the economy reopens? hon. That is why we're here, providing a helping hand at this difficult time so they can come out the other side. bruce stanton): Continuing with questions, we'll go to the honourable member for SaskatoonUniversity, Mr. With respect to entering Canada, does the government consider spousal reunification as essential travel, yes or no? the acting chair (mr. bill blair: The CBSA has exercised the appropriate discretion in determining when a non-Canadian citizen, who has no status in Canada, attempts to enter the country for any consideration considered non-essential.  Changing gears a little, all Canadians would agree, or can agree, that the Prime Minister requires suitable accommodation. Why did the government simply not tell Canadians that the Harrington cottage needed to be rebuilt and massively expanded? the acting chair (mr. The work at Harrington Lake is part of a broader program to preserve and maintain and restore all official residences under NCC management, and we will support the NCC in its important work. corey tochor: Was there something in particular that this government did not want Canadians to know about the cottage, or is secrecy all this government knows how to do? hon. corey tochor: Respectfully, Canadians feel misled on this, and we're not clear on what the expenses were, how large an expansion it was the acting chair (mr. Chair, I believe this has absolutely nothing to do with the pandemic, so the questions are out of order, in my opinion. Certainly the scope of the special committee on the COVID-19 pandemic does expect and anticipate that the subject matter will be related to the matter at hand, so I would ask honourable members to continue to keep within those bounds. Of course, members will also know that we're unable to gauge that until members have spoken, so I would ask members to keep on subject. The point I was making was about transparency or lack of transparency that is hurting our efforts with COVID-19. Changing gears onto CERB, who came up with the number for CERB? Why is it $2,000? A senior gets $1,200, people with disabilities get $1,600, and now we've added another ad hoc program on top of those. carla qualtrough: Working collaboratively between ESDC and the Department of Finance, we determined that that would be an appropriate amount, based on what workers were earning and what we anticipated they would need to live on, and what we anticipated they would be losing by way of employment income. corey tochor: I have a really quick question, which I've heard in my office, on charities and non-profits that do not have their own payroll number and are ineligible for the wage subsidy. Does the Prime Minister have a program fix coming so that charities and non-profits can receive the wage subsidy? the acting chair (mr. Chair, we understand the important role that charities and non-profits are playing to help vulnerable Canadians at this difficult time. We have announced supports in the amount of $350 million to ensure that not only do they continue that great work, but also expand it to serve the most vulnerable to get through the COVID-19 pandemic. Chair, last week markets were shocked when leaks regarding the state of our economy came to light before the market even opened. This caused worry to investors at home and abroad about the integrity of our markets and the nature of the leak, which is, in itself, unprecedented. Section 34 of the Statistics Act indicates the following:     Every person who, after taking the oath set out in subsection 6, is guity of an offence and liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding five thousand dollars or to impreisonment for a term not exceeing five years or both:       wilfully discloses or divulges directly or indirectly to any person not entitled under this Act to receive the same any information obtained by him in the course of his employment that might exert an influence on or affect the market value of any stocks, bonds or other security or any product or article, or       uses any information described in paragraph for the purpose of speculating in any stocks, bonds or other security or any product or article   My question for the minister is this: Does the government consider this case to be subject to paragraph 34 or 34 and a criminal offence, yes or no? the acting chair (mr. colleague is absolutely right that the current situation with regard to the COVID crisis is deeply problematic, and we want to make sure that any information we share with the Canadian public with regard to economic measures or labour market numbers follows the appropriate process. I can assure him that we are looking into this matter and that Statistics Canada is looking into this issue as well. Going forward, we will ensure that such a breach does not occur again, because it's important that we continue to have the confidence of Canadians during this current health care crisis. navdeep bains: As I have indicated very clearly, what has happened is completely unacceptable. This matter is being looked into, and we want to assure Canadians going forward that the acting chair (mr. ziad aboultaif: In that case, the minister said the matter will be looked into. Basically, my understanding of this case is that Statistics Canada is going to investigate itself, or does the minister think that the government should refer this to the RCMP? hon. navdeep bains: Sorry, could you repeat that question? I had a bit of an issue and could not hear the question. ziad aboultaif: Will Statistics Canada investigate itself or will the government refer this to the RCMP? hon. Those protocols will be followed, and the appropriate actions will be taken to ensure that such breaches do not occur going forward. ziad aboultaif: The minister indicated that this will be investigated, but during the investigation into the SNC-Lavalin scandal, the Liberal staff refused to co-operate. navdeep bains: Again, we've been clear that it's important that any such breach be taken seriously. What has happened is unacceptable, and we will ensure that the appropriate steps are taken to make sure that such breaches do not occur going forward. ziad aboultaif: There's no doubt about the general terms, but I need to make sure that the government will commit that its staff will co-operate. The law is very clear, and we will make sure that the process is followed and the law is upheld. david yurdiga (fort mcmurraycold lake, cpc): Thank you, Mr. Before I start my questions, I would like to thank the various ministers, parliamentary secretaries and the Speaker of the House for reaching out to me during the severe flooding in Fort McMurray. Over the past number of years, we have seen tremendous pressure on the federal government from anti-oil and gas lobby groups demanding that the oil sands be shut down. The federal Liberal government's response to the anti-oil lobby was the introduction of the no more pipelines bill, Bill C-69, which will prevent any major oil and gas projects from being developed in Canada; and the oil shipping ban, Bill C-48, for the northern coast of British Columbia, which also had a negative effect on the oil industry. These two bills alone pushed over $200 billion of investment out of Canada, causing the Alberta economy to retract to recession levels. To compound Alberta's economic problems, we have an international oil price war and the COVID-19 pandemic, which caused a huge drop in demand for oil. Chair, 48 days after the finance minister promised liquidity loans to oil producers and service companies, there are still no applications open for these loans. Chair, I'm happy that we were able to announce today some liquidity measures for large cap corporations in the oil and gas sector. These measures will provide them with the liquidity that they needed, and this is also the liquidity that they asked for. It was on April 17 that we started liquidity measures for small and medium-sized businesses in the oil and gas industry, and those are the ones in which 85% of workers are affected. I'm very happy that we've had such people as the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers come out and say that this is what they asked for and this is what they need, and we have produced what they need in order to ensure the future competitiveness of Canada's oil and gas sector. Many of these contractors are indigenous companies, and they are having a difficult time qualifying for programs to save their businesses. Can the honourable Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations inform us of the measures the government is taking to ensure there are no gaps in the current programs, and commit to review the eligibility criteria for owners of aboriginal businesses struggling to qualify for financial help? hon. Chair, Canada's oil sector provides jobs for more than 576,000 people, including 11,000 indigenous people, in every part of Canada. It is essential that we support the many indigenous people who work in our oil and gas sector, particularly in Alberta and Saskatchewan. We have provided supports for those businesses, and we will continue to do so, also keeping in mind that in many of these communities the importance of public health and safety is foremost in our minds. If the global oil markets remain oversupplied into the summer and industry must shut down production, what is the government's plan to ensure Canada's energy security and the economic future of the oil sands with the potential shutdown of oil production? hon. Chair, we have worked with industry and with provinces on every front to ensure the stability of the oil and gas sector of our country. We need the workers in our oil and gas sector in order to lower emissions and achieve a greener economy. Therefore, we are looking after workers and we are looking out for companies that hold onto those jobs for those workers. Chair, the government's assistance package for the Canadian oil and gas industry provides some hope to the industry. Can the minister clarify? On a medium-sized energy company's eligibility, if the company is in default to financial institutions, does it still qualify for the business credit availability program? hon. We have the impacts of COVID and the effects of a global price war, and we have been tackling both of these on each front. As well, through the BCAP, we are making sure that more companies are eligible so that they can remain whole and so they can hold onto the jobs that we need. As we all know, we're being told we need a vaccine, and the quest for a vaccine is all-consuming globally. However, people who think about this issue and the question of the power structure and profit motive, particularly Dr. Can we ensure that public dollars for finding a vaccine will result in a product that is shared globally, openly, and is not for profit? hon. We have an open science model, and we're working with different partners and different jurisdictions to help develop vaccines and look at countermeasures and other therapeutics. Our goal is to make sure that we do so in a collaborative fashion, because this is a global pandemic, but make no mistake: If it's Canadian ingenuity and Canadian IP that's driving it, we want to support them as well. elizabeth may: As a follow-up to the minister's comment, I note it was interesting to see the claim made by this public health institute at Dalhousie about the wonderful research that was being done in Winnipeg on an Ebola vaccine. Because of the for-profit motive and the interests that big pharma had in seeing their market before they developed the product, it is alleged that the Ebola vaccine was actually delayed by the for-profit model. I wonder if we might consider examining this profit motive around the development of life-saving vaccines and other drugs. I'm working very closely with Minister Hajdu and the chief science advisor to look at all options. We are engaging with them and empowering them, and we will continue to share details of this with the public. elizabeth may: Changing gears, we know that the new regulations limiting what are described as military-style assault rifles and guns have been very controversial. It's very clear to me as an opposition member why we haven't seen legislation on any fast track. Wouldn't it be wise to table for first reading the entire legislative framework so that we know what we're talking about in the long term with regard to the buyback program and other aspects of this issue? hon. I want to assure her that at the first opportunity, we will bring forward legislation dealing with a number of aspects of our commitment to strengthen gun control in Canada, including legislation to deal with a buyback program, which we've indicated we will put in place. There are a number of other significant measures as well that we intend to bring forward to strengthen gun control legislation. The pandemic does not diminish our responsibility to do what is necessary to keep Canadians safe, and we will bring that legislation forward at the first opportunity. Some that are being run by not-for-profit societies are actually running very well, certainly in my community, but they are facing increased costs that could bankrupt them. As yet, there's no program to help a well-run seniors home that is not experiencing a loss of revenue and has lots of staff working hard. patty hajdu: I offer my gratitude to the many people who are working in these long-term care facilities day and night to keep seniors safe. The member certainly highlighted that there are not only additional expenses for some of the not-for-profit seniors homes, but also additional new measures that will increase all kinds of things, including costs. We continue to work with the provinces and territories and support them through, for example, generous transfers of money to boost their health care systems in ways that they think are most appropriate. To the Minister of Health, is her government prepared to take strong action to address this crisis in seniors health care? hon. Chair, the member has illustrated some of the horror stories that have appalled us all as Canadians and certainly as parliamentarians. We know that seniors deserve to live in dignity and safety with the utmost care, and that just hasn't been happening in this time of COVID and certainly, in some cases, in previous times as well. As the member knows, I've said publicly that I believe we need to hold long-term care homes to stronger standards. I am working with many ministers across our government to think about how we do that, how we the chair: We'll go back to Mr. Chair, if we treated children the way we do seniors in this country, social services would seize them. Over 80% of the deaths in Canada from COVID-19 have occurred in long-term care homes. Canada has the highest proportion of deaths in long-term care home settings among 14 comparable countries, including France, Germany, Denmark and Ireland. Chair, the member opposite knows that long-term care homes have rested largely in the jurisdiction of provincial governments and, in fact, municipal governments, which often run them and fund them partially as well. That's why it's important that we have those conversations with our provincial and territorial partners, but the member can rest assured that it is on the top of my priority list to engage with my colleagues all across the country, including many experts who have studied this issue multiple times, to come up with stronger standards so all seniors have quality of life, safety and dignity in their elder years. Chair, Canadians don't want politicians pointing fingers at each other; they want our seniors taken care of. Not a single province or territory in Canada is meeting the minimum standards of hands-on care for seniors, and death rates from COVID-19 in private, for-profit facilities are two to three times that of public or non-profit homes. Will the minister agree with New Democrats that we need strong national standards, federal funding tied to enforcement and public delivery of care to effectively improve care for seniors? hon. As a matter of fact, what I hear from my colleagues at the provincial and territorial level is the willingness to collaborate on how, first of all, we get through this crisis together and strengthen safety for seniors in homes right now and then how we look to the future to build a stronger network of long-term care or care alternatives that will ensure that seniors have the right and the ability to live with dignity and safety in their homes. Chair, what I'm not hearing is a single concrete proposal or measure that this minister is suggesting her government can take, but let me move to another subject. Like long-term care, COVID-19 has exposed other major gaps in our health care system. Millions of Canadians lost their prescription benefits when they lost their jobs, revealing the fundamental weakness of medical coverage tied to employment status. Will this government finally move to ensure all Canadians get the medicine they need by bringing in universal pharmacare at the earliest opportunity? hon. Chair, as you know, in the mandate that the Prime Minister gave to me, working on a national pharmacare plan is still there. I know it feels like a lifetime ago, but the member has very aptly illustrated why affordable medication is so important as part of a robust health care system. A few weeks ago, the Prime Minister made a big announcement expressing his desire to launch an economic recovery plan that fast-tracks the transition to a green economy. MinisterGuilbeault, MinisterMcKenna and MinisterWilkinson were appointed to a group tasked with doing just that. Today, I worry that the group is nothing but an empty shell, a convenient post-crisis political pitch. Perhaps there is an environmental component, but I'm having trouble wrapping my head around yesterday's announcement by Export and Development Canada. That's $500million for a pipeline project that will eventually produce 8.6million tonnes of greenhouse gases annually. How does the government reconcile that with its desire to transition to a green economy? the chair: The honourable minister has the floor. Certainly at this time, Canadians are most particularly focused on ensuring that support is provided so that they can put food on the table and pay their rent. Certainly as we move forward, we need to be thinking about the kind of society and economy that we want to create for the future. In that context, we need to learn lessons coming out of this experience, and certainly we need to ensure that we are addressing challenges that are on the horizon, including the challenge of climate change. Those are conversations that will need to be had as we move beyond this phase of the crisis, but at the current time, the focus is clearly on combatting the virus. monique pauz (repentigny, bq): There was absolutely no interpretation while the minister was speaking. the chair: Since so many are having issues with the interpretation, let's take a quick break while I try to fix the problem on my end. I'm going to ask the minister to repeat his answer, and we'll see whether the interpretation comes through this time. If not, please let me know, Ms.Pauz and anyone else who doesn't hear it. That means not just climate change, but also other challenges that we saw during the coronavirus crisis, challenges we need to take into account. Of course, we need to think about the future, but I want Canadians the chair: Mr.Simard has the floor. I want to tell you that, of all industries, the one best positioned to make the energy transition is probably the forestry industry. Unfortunately, in Canadaa petro statethere always seem to be two sets of rules when it comes to helping key industries, including providing liquidity support. Yesterday's announcement suggests that the $500million being provided by EDC is for a single project: Coastal GasLink. In 2017, under the softwood lumber action plan, EDC's entire budget for the forestry industry was exactly $500million. Now, EDC is shelling out $500million for just one project, Coastal GasLink, even though the whole of the forestry industry also received $500million when it needed EDC's support under a 2017 action plan to deal with tariffs. The industry accounts for 58,000jobs in Quebec and $6billion of Quebec's GDP. Does he think this situation is fair? Will he commit to providing the forestry industry with the same amount of liquidity being made available to the fossil fuel sector? hon. Building on our work today, we have included traditional investments to make sure this sector innovates, diversifies and grows. Over these past two and a half months, I have spent an inordinate amount of time with CEOs, with heads of the forestry sectors from coast to coast to coast. A few days ago, I convened a meeting of CEOs from all parts of this country, from Quebec to British Columbia, to talk to them about solutions, about answers. We will continue to work closely with industry to make sure we are there for them and that we stand by them through the COVID crisis, so we make sure that the chair: The next question will go to Mr. I'm hearing from small business owners like Joel, who runs a fitness club here in Pitt MeadowsMaple Ridge, and is very concerned that their landlords refuse to participate in the rent assistance program. These businesses have seen revenue drops between 50% and 100% and are asking for just 25% off their rent. When will the government help small businesses whose landlords refuse to be team players during this pandemic? hon. That's why we've moved forward with a number of measures that are designed to be of assistance. It allows for small businesses to significantly reduce their rent and for landlords to be protected with up to 75% of the rent. A number of my constituents, including Kathy, who owns a beauty salon, are concerned about meeting the PPE requirements. What is the federal government doing to ensure businesses in my riding can get access to the PPE they need to keep their employees and customers safe when they reopen? hon. However, we are actively involved in trying to ascertain how the federal government can work with the provinces and territories to provide essential services and other businesses with PPE. Chair, Craig and Matt are co-owners of Wanstalls, a firearms retail outlet in downtown Maple Ridge that employs eight people and serves thousands of law-abiding firearm owners in my riding, people who are now made to feel like criminals by the Liberal government. Further, they are now stuck with tens of thousands of dollars of inventory that they can no longer sell. What are they supposed to do to keep open in this already tumultuous COVID environment? hon. bill blair: It's important to understand that none of the restrictions that we have put in place, the new prohibitions, in any way impact weapons that are used for the lawful purposes in Canada of hunting and sport shooting, so those weapons remain available to Canadians engaged in those lawful activities. We have prohibited weapons that were not intended for the legal purposes of hunting and sport shooting and for which firearms are available to Canadians. Chair, according to the CERB website, if a recipient earns over $1,000 in a reporting period, their entire $2,000 benefit must be repaid. They're worried that if they take an extra shift, they will lose their CERB, but if they refuse a shift, they will also lose their CERB. Does the government intend to make them repay all their CERB if they barely go over the threshold? hon. Chair, that is why we're working with individual eligible CERB recipients to make sure they are not put in positions of undue hardship. At the beginning, the registration restricted it to basically not working, and then we relaxed the condition to earning up to $1,000. alexis brunelle-duceppe (lac-saint-jean, bq): I have a point of order, Mr.Chair. alexis brunelle-duceppe: There were some technical issues earlier during my fellow member Mario Simard's turn. The good thing is that this is all being filmed, so we can watch the video back to see what happened. alexis brunelle-duceppe: Mr.Chair, because the ministers chose to answer in French owing to a technical issue, their answers were unduly drawn out, which cost my fellow member speaking time. the chair: As I said, I'll check what happened and we'll have a solution for next time. steven guilbeault: I hope the member isn't suggesting that, because some members of the House are making an effort to speak French, they are unduly dragging out the time, as he seems to have said. Good for them, I say, for trying to speak a language they aren't necessarily comfortable in for the benefit of other members. the chair: I think a debate is brewing, but I'm sure that's not what people want, so I don't want an argument to break out over the fact that different languages are being spoken. Mr.Chair, many farmers in my riding and elsewhere are afraid they won't have enough workers this summer and fall. What is the government going to do to make sure those receiving the CERB and CESB have the right information and know about the job opportunities in the agri-food sector in our communities? the chair: The honourable minister has 15seconds to answer. Chair, I can assure the member that while we are supporting Canadians through both the CERB and the CESB, we are creating tens of thousands of jobs, including in the agriculture sector, to make sure there is labour available in this important and essential sector. When I first got elected as Speaker, one of the things I mentioned was that you would want everyone who was watching, including your families and your friends, to be proud of you. I didn't see anybody answer without one, and it is very much appreciated, not only by our fellow members but also by the people who are translating into the other language that you are not speaking<doc-sep>anthony rota (nipissingtimiskaming, lib.)): I call the meeting to order.  Welcome to the third meeting of the House of Commons Special Committee on the COVID-19 Pandemic. Pursuant to the order of reference of Monday, April20, the committee is meeting for the purposes of considering ministerial announcements, allowing members to present petitions, and questioning ministers of the crown, including the Prime Minister, in respect of the COVID-19 pandemic. I understand there's an agreement to observe a moment of silence in memory of the six members of the Canadian Armed Forces who lost their lives last Wednesday in a helicopter crash off the coast of Greece. Colleagues, we meet today to continue our discussion about how our country is dealing with the COVID-19 pandemic. As we do, Canadians, like everyone around the world, are doing their best to live their lives until things improve. Meanwhile, as we look towards the future, I believe that it is also important to remember our past and to continue to mark the important moments in our shared history. Andrea McCrady, is performing a special recital to commemorate the 75th anniversary of the liberation of the Netherlands by the Canadian Forces. In May 1945, Canadian Forces played a major role in liberating the Dutch people from Nazi occupation. May 5 is now a national holiday in the Netherlands that commemorates the event and the great friendship that now exists between our two countries. Let me remind you that, as in the House or in committee, members may not take photographs of their colleagues or film the proceedings. In order to facilitate the work of our interpreters and ensure orderly meetings, I will outline a few rules. If you look at the bottom, you have a little flag that indicates whether it's English or French, and that's how we will be speaking.  I would like to remind members that petitions presented during a meeting of the special committee must already have been certified by the clerk of petitions.  In addition, to ensure that the petition is considered to have been properly presented, the certificate of the petition and each page of the petition for petitions certified in a previous Parliament should be emailed to the committee no later than 6 p.m. It includes removing the mandatory 10-day reflection period and the number of required witnesses who will witness a person's consent. The petitioners urge the House of Commons to immediately discontinue the removal of safeguards for people requesting euthanasia, and to put in place additional measures to protect vulnerable people. Petitioners call on members of the House, and hopefully the Senate as well, to support Bill S-204, which would make it a criminal offence for a person to go abroad and receive an organ for which there has not been consent. It would also create provisions under which a person could be made inadmissible to Canada if they had been involved in organ harvesting or trafficking. I want to remind all the members that there are specific headsets that have been mandated to all of us. If you don't have one, please talk to your IT ambassador and they will get one to you as quickly as possible. The reason for them is not so much for what you hear, but that our interpreters are working and there are work conditions that really make it difficult. Part of that is not having the appropriate boom on your headset, which will make it very difficult for them to hear and interpret for our members. The petitioners have noted that there are approximately 60 indigenous languages in Canada and that 2019, last year, was declared by the UN to be the year of indigenous languages. They draw attention to article 13 of the UNDRIP and to the TRC's calls to action numbers 13 to 16. Fundamentally, they call upon the Government of Canada to recognize indigenous languages as being official languages of Canada and to have each language recognized nationally, with implementations on regional and provincial levels, acknowledging that many regions have different languages. Chair, I am proud to present a petition on behalf of one of my constituents, Myles Lynch of St. Myles lives with cystic fibrosis and has had three lung transplants in the last five years, and he's only 22 years old. One thing Myles has been advocating for is the creation of a national opt-out program for organ donation. I am proud to have this certified today, with 1,318 signatures, asking the Standing Committee on Health to launch a study into the feasibility of the creation of a national opt-out program. I give kudos to Myles not only for his strength personally but also for his advocacy for others and for saving lives in our country by advocating for a better and an improved organ donation system. Chair, I'm very pleased to present this certified petition on behalf of several dozen residents of Toronto, Mississauga and Brampton, Ontario, who add their voices to those of the thousands upon thousands of Canadians who have signed similar petitions. Given that Canadians are living through unprecedented, catastrophic climate events, and at the same time our society, as you know, is suffering from worsening social and economic inequalitieshalf of Canadian families are only $200 away from insolvency in any given monthand particularly given the pandemic that we are currently experiencing, these petitioners are calling on the Government of Canada to support motion M-1, a made-in-Canada green new deal that I am presenting in front of the House of Commons. It calls on Canada to take bold and rapid action to tackle the climate emergency, and to put in place a shift to a clean and renewable energy economy. Chair, it's an honour to table a petition on behalf of constituents from CourtenayAlberni. Over 12,000 Canadians have died over the last four years due to fentanyl-poisoned sources. They cite that the current war on drugs has been costly and grossly ineffective; that it has resulted in widespread stigma towards addiction and against those who use illicit drugs; and that criminalization of particular substances has resulted in the establishment of a drug trade that now trafficks dangerous and lethal products such as fentanyl. They are citing that regulating to ensure safe sources, with proper measures and bylaws, will reduce the criminal element associated with street drugs. They are calling on the Government of Canada to declare the current opioid overdose and fenanyl poisoning crisis a national public health emergency under the Emergencies Act. They are calling for the government to reform current drug policy to decriminalize personal possession, as has been done in Portugal and other countries, and to create with urgency and immediacy a system to provide safe and unadulterated access to substances so that people who use substances experimentally, recreationally or chronically are not at imminent risk of overdose due to a contaminated source. Chair, I'm presenting a petition today that contains the concerns of Canadians in my riding with the government's approach to firearms legislation and regulation. The petition highlights that the Liberal government's December 5, 2019, Speech from the Throne contains numerous inaccuracies about current firearms legislation and regulation; that the term military-style assault rifles is a political phrase undefined in Canadian law; that municipalities are constitutionally unable to enact criminal law to ban handguns in their jurisdictions; that the experts, including chiefs of police, agree that banning firearms and requiring law-abiding gun owners to follow more unnecessary red tape will not increase public safety; that the majority of guns used in violent crimes are smuggled into Canada from the United States; and that the Liberal government continues to target law-abiding firearms owners instead of the gangs, drug traffickers and illegal gun traffickers responsible for violence in our communities. The petitioners in MissionMatsquiFraser Canyon are calling on the government to stop targeting law-abiding firearms owners; to cancel all plans to confiscate firearms legally owned by federally licensed, RCMP-vetted Canadians; and to focus our limited resources on anti-gang enforcement, on reducing the involvement of at-risk youth and gangs, on mental health and on providing the Canada Border Services Agency with the tools they need to do their job effectively. I would like to remind honourable members that no member shall be recognized for more than five minutes at a time and that members may split their time with one or more members by so indicating to the chair. I want to again remind honourable members to use the boom on the official headsets so that everything runs smoothly, not only for ourselves but also for the interpreters. pierre paul-hus (charlesbourghaute-saint-charles, cpc): Thank you, Mr.Chair. Although we are right in the middle of a pandemic and the government has agreed to set aside all parliamentary business in order to concentrate solely on eliminating the virus in Canada and its impacts, the Prime Minister is deceiving Canadians by introducing measures to punish law-abiding firearm owners. justin trudeau (prime minister): Mr.Chair, I feel that all Canadians were affected by the massacre in Nova Scotia. During the last election campaign, we promised to ban military-style assault weapons, and that is exactly what we have done. It is a shame that, once more, the Conservatives do not want to strengthen gun control in the country. However, I would like to know whether he considers that, with this order in council, organized crime, street gangs and other criminals are simply going to turn in their weapons. We are doing other things to eliminate or restrict handguns in our municipalities, to strengthen the control at our borders, and to implement other measures. member speak of those measures, because we are going to work together in the House to strengthen gun control. I hope that the Conservative Party will be part of that discussion in a positive way, in order to keep Canadians safe. pierre paul-hus: Mr.Chair, I can simply say to the Prime Minister that the Conservative Party has always been committed to battling criminals, not law-abiding citizens. Speaking of criminals, we know that, even before the pandemic, the Prime Minister had asked the Parole Board of Canada to release prisoners more easily and more quickly. The Minister of Public Safety told us that the people were approaching the end of their sentences or were older, but we are learning in the media that some dangerous criminals are being released. justin trudeau: The protection, the safety and the health of all Canadians are important for the government. This is why we have taken additional measures in our correctional services to ensure that guards and inmates are protected. We have indeed opened the doors to some more speedy releases, but only in very specific cases that present little or no danger for Canadians. pierre paul-hus: So is the Prime Minister confirming to us that no dangerous criminals have been precipitously released so that they do not have to experience COVID-19 within the walls? right hon. justin trudeau: There are very strict rules and principles to ensure that people posing a threat to society are not released. Is Canada going to stand by its allies in the Five Eyes and demand that the Chinese government be completely transparent? right hon. justin trudeau: We continue to stand in solidarity with our allies, including the Five Eyes, as they have stood in solidarity with Canada in terms of the two Canadians who have been unjustly detained for a long time in China. In the coming months and years, we expect to obtain answers to all our questions about the origin of this pandemic, including questions that are important for China. At the same time, we are going to work hard to ensure that all Canadians have the equipment and the protection they need to get through this pandemic. yves-franois blanchet (beloeilchambly, bq): Thank you, Mr.Chair. For some days, discussions have been going on between people from the Bloc Qubcois and people from the government with a view to collaboratively coming up with a proposal for seniors in Quebec and Canada. The gist of our proposal is to temporarily increase the old age security by about $25per week, or $110per month. The discussion has been going on for some time and it's a proposal that we made in the election campaign. Given that impatience, I realized I should not be the one answering them, it should be the Prime Minister. So here is my question for the Prime Minister: what are you doing to seek a solution that will increase the purchasing power of seniors in Quebec and Canada in the very short term? right hon. justin trudeau: Clearly, seniors need support and significant services from us because of COVID-19. Our priority was to implement income replacement benefits for workers who have lost their jobs because of COVID-19. The most vulnerable seniors are going to receive reimbursement of the GST, which will help them very quickly. We have also channelled $9million through the United Way, to help the most vulnerable seniors. I am very pleased that we have been able to work with other parliamentarians, including those in the Bloc Qubcois, to hear these concerns and to find the best way to help seniors in the short term. In terms of the pandemic, they have concerns about their physical security, but also about their financial security. yves-franois blanchet: In the last few hours, the Prime Minister has indicated that he could need the cooperation of other parties, including the Bloc Qubcois, on a completely different matter. We are very open to that discussion, but we want the same openness when we are asking for something to serve the people of Quebec. Seniors in my constituency, as in any other of the 338constituencies, are asking what we are doing. When will there be something for them? I want to be able to give them an answer of some kind. justin trudeau: There will be announcements in the coming days on the way in which we will be able to help seniors, particularly the most vulnerable seniors. There are horror stories, whether about the CHSLDs, or about our most vulnerable seniors across the country. There are seniors who are alone, seniors who are afraid of falling ill without ever seeing their grandchildren or their children again. We have to be there for those who belong to that great generation that fought for us during the second world war. Chair, every day I hear from people who are struggling to pay their bills and to keep a roof over their head. Instead of making sure that Canadians get the help they need, the government has created complicated programs that are still letting people fall through the cracks. If the Prime Minister won't commit to a universal benefit, will he at least commit to removing the restrictive eligibility criteria that are leaving the most vulnerable people behind? right hon. Chair, we knew, when this pandemic hit, that we needed to help Canadians who were suffering from coast to coast to coast, particularly the most vulnerable. That is why we moved forward rapidly with the Canada emergency response benefit, which has helped over seven million individual Canadians and has made a huge difference. We had to move very quickly to get this money out to people, and that is exactly what we did. That is why since that moment, we have continually worked on reaching out to the most vulnerable and supporting them as well. However, because she didn't make $5,000 last year, when the pandemic hit she didn't qualify for any benefits. Chair, our focus throughout this crisis has been on helping the most vulnerable with targeted measures that will lift Canadians out of poverty and will support them. Over the past five years, we've lifted over a million people out of poverty in this country, and we've continued to put the most vulnerable at the heart of everything we're doing. At the same time, we will continue to look for more ways to help even more than the seven million Canadians who successfully receive the CERB. We recognize there's more to do, and we will continue trying to do everything we can in this unprecedented situation. Chair, the government is weirdly committed to eligibility criteria that result in regular people not getting the support they need, but not so committed to criteria for corporations and billionaires who get our help. If a company is cheating the public, using offshore tax havens not to pay its fair share, it should not be eligible for government bailouts or benefits. Other countries, like Poland, Denmark and France, have made this commitment, and if they can do it, so can we. Will he commit now that if a company has money in offshore tax havens, it will not receive public funds? right hon. Chair, the measures we've put forward are focused on helping workers who lose their jobs, regardless of the companies they work for. It is a shame to hear the NDP, which used to be the party of workers, choosing to judge workers by which multinational they work for. We have moved forward with a wage subsidy such that the employers are obliged to pass every single penny on to the workers. That is help for the workers, and that has been our focus all the way through: ordinary Canadians who need support because they are unable to work because of COVID-19. I want to remind honourable members that we're trying to stay within committee rules, which state that the length of a question and the length of an answer should be approximately the same amount of time. She has about 45 seconds left, and hopefully that's about half and half for the question and the answer. My community was facing a crisis long before the pandemic hit, and now people who are living on the streets or in parks don't have the luxury of following public health advice and just staying home. In Victoria, the province and the municipality have stepped up with solutions to house people, at least for the short term, in local hotels. Will the federal government respond to this immediate crisis and provide the needed investments in long-term, stable housing? the chair: The right honourable Prime Minister, in 25 seconds or less, please. Working with partners, we have reduced poverty by over a million people in this country, but there is more to do. We recognize that during this pandemic there's even more to do for vulnerable Canadians, and we are partnering with orders of government to make sure that happens. jol godin (portneufjacques-cartier, cpc): A point of order, Mr.Chair. Could we please check so that I can hear in French what the Prime Minister is saying? the chair: Okay. I'm speaking English right now and I'm on the English toggle at the bottom of the screen. It does create a bit of a disjoint when we're speaking, but it's the way to get around that so we have interpretation that works for everyone. Chair, as this is our first opportunity to meet in any forum, I want to take this opportunity to express my condolences to the families of the brave men and women who lost their lives in the helicopter crash. I know that I speak for all parliamentarians when I extend our sympathy to their families and loved ones. Chair, I want to raise with the Prime Minister an issue that I've raised several times before, and that is a gap in the wage subsidy program. Those companies separately would qualify for the wage subsidy, but because of rules that the government designed, together they do not. Even though collectively they have experienced a massive drop in revenue and would otherwise be eligible, so far they've been unable to get confirmation that they will be able to access the program. Will the Prime Minister be able to deliver some good news to people who work for Brandt Tractor all across the country? right hon. justin trudeau: I thank the honourable member for his question and for his advocacy for his community and businesses in his riding. As I told him when we spoke directly, Finance officials have been directly in contact with the company in his riding. We recognize that there are particular elements in regard to this company that are challenging around application for the wage subsidy, but I know that Finance officials are working very hard to try to make sure that everyone who needs the subsidy gets it, so that the workers in his community can get the support they need. andrew scheer: The Prime Minister knows that there are many companies across the country that fall into this category as well, so we're hoping for some good news. Just flagging the time and date, it is well into May now and important decisions have to be made in very short order. There are other aspects of the government's plans to help get people through this crisis that are also causing people to fall through the cracks. As provinces start to open up, many companies are going to be faced with a very difficult decision of operating at perhaps 35% or 45% of regular revenues. They will not be able to access these programs and, in many cases, there is going to be a disincentive to reopen and put people back to work. Will the Prime Minister amend these programs to provide for more flexibility so that more and more Canadians can start to return to work in the weeks ahead? right hon. Chair, we are in an unprecedented crisis and we had to move quickly to support workers and to support families across the country, and that's exactly what we did. We're going to continue to work to try to respond to the reality that people and businesses are facing right across the country. I am eager to be faced with the challenge of how to ease off in these measures so that people can get back to work. We are still focused very much on giving the supports to workers and families that are so necessary in this time of crisis. As different provinces move forward towards reopening, as we look at different paths forward, I know that I will be able to count on all members in the House and, indeed, on Canadians from coast to coast to coast to figure out together what the best way will be to move forward on keeping us safe and restoring economic activity in the right way. the chair: We have about a minute left for maybe a 30-second question and a 30-second answer. The problems with them have been flagged for the government for weeks as well, but we're also going to see an additional challenge, where people who are receiving the emergency response benefit, who may have the option to go back to work and work some hours, are faced with a hard cap of $1,000 a month before they lose the CERB. Conservatives are proposing a progressive system, a more flexible system, where people will be able to earn more without losing their benefits as businesses ramp up but before normal working hours are restored. Again, will the Prime Minister build in some flexibility to lift the restrictive ceiling on what people can earn before losing benefits so that it always pays more to work? the chair: I believe the timer is telling all of us that the time is up, but I'll give the right honourable Prime Minister about 30 seconds to answer that, please. Our priority was getting support for Canadians right across the country with the CERB, with the wage subsidy and with other measures for students, for seniors, for farmers and for agricultural producers. We are going to work with communities and with industry as we look to reopen, to make sure that people have opportunities to work and are not penalized for it. However, our overarching priority was allowing Canadians to be confident in their ability to stay home, care for their loved ones, buy groceries and pay their rent so that we could keep safe during this pandemic. We've heard the Prime Minister admit that fixed incomes for some of them are down, rent is increasing and the price of groceries is increasing. Chair, after a lifetime of hard work, of course Canadians deserve peace of mind when it comes to their retirement security. Happily, their pensions and their benefits are still flowing, unlike for so many of those who have lost their jobs, but it's still tough. People received a GST credit, a supplementary payment that was $400 on average for single seniors and $600 for couples. I think you had reminded us as members that the amount of time for the answer should be similar to the amount of time for the question. the chair: I want to remind all honourable members to keep their answers as well as their questions as concise as possible. We see a number of inconsistencies in what is considered essential travel with regard to the U.S. While we have Americans coming over to buy cheaper prescription medications and to fish, individuals in my riding who are trying to get auditors over so that they can be approved for export businesses are being declined. We have people who have purchased masts from Canadian producers for their boats, and who want to come and pick them up, who are not being allowed to do that. When will they clarify the rules to the CBSA agents so that essential travel and trade and commerce, including individual commerce, is understood? hon. Chair, we have implemented very rigorous rules that have been well documented and understood by CBSA to stop all non-essential travel. At the same time, we recognize the importance of maintaining essential supply routes so that goods and services could reach Canada and we could put groceries on our shelves. The work we are doing to stop non-essential travel has been important for the health and safety of Canadians, and we will continue with that work. We see that many of them are not eligible for any of the benefit packages that have been rolled outEI, CERB, the wage subsidy, etc. What is the government going to do to address sole proprietors who are currently falling through the cracks? hon. Chair, first, let me say that we absolutely recognize there are businesses across the country of all sizes that are finding this to be extremely difficult. The intent of the measures we put forward is obviously not only to give individuals a bridge but to give businesses a bridge. We are looking at ways that we can ensure that the Canada emergency business account has the broadest possible application. We are looking at ways we can consider that eligibility process, recognizing that we need to make sure that the program continues to have its desired impact, and we will have more to say on that. Since then the minister has overruled the will of harvesters in Prince Edward Island and in the gulf who voted to start their seasons on time, but she has allowed harvesters from her own riding to proceed with their seasons as scheduled, giving them access to markets weeks before their competitors. This double standard is severely unfair and Atlantic harvesters are furious, as demonstrated during the protests on the Canso Causeway yesterday. When will the minister stop abusing her position and start respecting fish harvesters by opening up lobster fishing areas 23, 24 and 26? hon. Chair, when making decisions with regard to when seasons open, a number of factors are taken into account. They are complex decisions that take into account what is necessary for processors to be ready for the season, what is necessary for harvesters to be ready for the season, as well socio-economic impacts on the area. In the decisions we've made around the gulf, one of the main things we heard from all of those areas is that it was very important for them to start on the same date. Maybe I'll start muting if it's necessary, but interrupting is not going to solve anything. West coast fishing tourism is a key economic driver in British Columbia, especially in coastal communities, and yet the public fishery gets no respect from the government. A year later, the fisheries minister refuses even to discuss viable, science-based solutions to conserve B.C.'s public fisheries. Does the minister and her government have a will and a plan to support Canada's west coast fisheries and the communities they sustain? the chair: The hon. That's why we continue to work with those communities and with the fisheries to make sure that we're doing everything we possibly can to support them. During these extremely difficult times, we're working on measures with the fishery in B.C., as well as on the Atlantic coast and eastern Quebec, to make sure that we're delivering for them and that all of the issues they're having are being addressed. Chair, Canada's seniors, especially those on basic incomes, are being hard hit by the COVID-19 crisis as they face new rising costs and scarcity of services. Seniors require adequate caregiver supports, physical safety and freedom to access their savings to reinforce their financial security. Why has the government failed to recognize the increasing challenges that seniors are facing? Will the government support Canada's senior citizens? the chair: The hon. We have provided a GST credit supplement of $400 for single seniors and $600 for couples, for low- and modest-income seniors. We have also ensured that the Canada emergency response benefit is there for seniors who have lost income due to COVID-19. On April 23, my colleagues and I called on the government to create a program that would match students seeking employment with employers in Canada's essential food supply chains. What has the government done to match students and other Canadians seeking employment with employers in the agriculture and agri-food sectors, including those in the fish and seafood sector? hon. Chair, we're doing all we can to make sure, using our existing employment programs, that we create opportunities for students to work and get work experience this summer. We know that this is going to be really tough, especially in areas like agriculture, so we have dedicated streams for agriculture sector employers to access students with help from the government, and a number of different initiatives including Canada summer jobs, which I'm really excited to see the results of in the coming days. Arnold, it's the second time that I note you've threatened to cut off a Conservative microphone. I'm just wondering, given that this isn't the House of Commons and it's structured as a committee, what standing order would give you the right to cut off a member of Parliament using a mute button. It seems a little dictatorial, and I was just wondering whether you could clarify that, based on the Standing Orders. the chair: I don't think I threatened to use mute, but thank you for bringing that up. I am trying to keep the rules where the questions and the answers are equal, so that there are no interruptions on either side. Bring the papers with the actual verbiage on it where I threatened, and we'll go over it, but I don't think this is the venue to do that. rachael harder (lethbridge, cpc): Canadians have outrightly expressed outrage and disappointment with the government's initiative to put a gun ban in place. Does the minister stand by his comment that these changes would have prevented the tragedy in Nova Scotia? the chair: The honourable minister in 15 seconds or less, please. bill blair: We have heard from health professionals, women's rights organizations, victims groups and the police and our unions. They're all very supportive of the government's measure to ban weapons that have no place in a civil society and were designed to kill people. rachael harder: It's interesting that the minister is misleading Canadians in that comment because the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police has actually said that a gun ban will do nothing of the sort, that it actually will not protect Canadians. How many criminals will see guns seized because of the changes that have been implemented by the Liberal government? hon. The Ontario Association of Chiefs of Police said that they support a prohibition on all military-designed assault rifles. The chief in Toronto said that taking those assault rifles off the streets contributes to public safety, and the Canadian Association of Police Chiefs has declared that military assault rifles are produced for the sole purpose of killing people in large numbers and they urged successive governments to enact legislation to ban all military assault rifles. Absolutely no criminals will see their guns seized based on the Liberals' legislation that's coming forward because it actually goes after those who legally own and use their firearms. Can the Prime Minister please tell us why he decided to go after law-abiding citizens instead of actually going after criminals who have gotten their firearms in an illegal manner and then used them to commit crimes? the chair: The honourable minister in 25 seconds or less, please. bill blair: Yes, to be very clear, the order in council actually is targeted at weapons, weapons that were designed for military use, and in their design and in their intent, to kill people, they've actually been used in this country, at cole Polytechnique; in Moncton; at a Quebec City mosque; in Fredericton; at Mayerthorpe and most recently in Nova Scotia. They are being used and have been used in Canada and around the world to commit mass murder, and in the interest of public safety and at the urging the chair: We'll go on to Ms. Now I understand the Prime Minister has his food prepared for him at 24 Sussex Drive and then it's delivered to him at the cottage where he lives. Now, they're in a crisis right now, which means that regular Canadians are actually at risk of not having food available for them at the grocery stores where they purchase theirs. Why doesn't the Prime Minister care about the women and the men who work incredibly hard to keep Canada fed? hon. chrystia freeland (deputy prime minister and minister of intergovernmental affairs): Mr. member that our government cares very, very much about the women and men who work so hard to feed our country. Let me just say I am grateful to all the farmers, like my dad, who are out in their fields right now getting ready for seeding. We, as Canadians, are lucky to be citizens of an agricultural superpower, and our government believes in supporting our farmers and ranchers. rachael harder: I'm confused as to why the Prime Minister didn't take my question, and at a bare minimum as to why the agriculture minister doesn't feel it's important enough for her to be a part of this discussion today. When we have farmers who produce for Canadians on a daily basis and they're asking some serious and some very important questions, and we don't even have a minister who's willing to come to the table and engage in this conversation, that's shameful. Several meat-packing plants have been forced to shut down because of COVID-19 and, as a result, farmers are forced to hold stock longer than expected. Cattle producers in my region are spending more than $60,000 a day to keep their livestock fed while they wait for processing plants to reopen. When will the government take this seriously and at least implement a set-aside program for those who are beef producers in Canada? hon. Chair, let me just say that I feel there is nothing shameful at all in having me, the Deputy Prime Minister, answer questions about agriculture. I am actually very proud to speak up for Canada's amazing farmers, for our country's amazing ranchers, for our amazing pork producers and our poultry producers. james bezan (selkirkinterlakeeastman, cpc): Thank you, Mr. I too would like to express my sincere condolences to the families and friends of the six military heroes who lost their lives at sea last week. I'm sure that all members of the House stand shoulder to shoulder with the families, with the crew of the HMCS Fredericton and, indeed, with the entire Canadian Armed Forces community during this time of grief. Can the Minister of National Defence give us an update as to the Cyclone helicopter crash off the coast of Greece last week? hon. Our number one priority is to make sure that we look after them, and that's exactly what we are doing. I actually spoke with the Italian minister of defence and he promised full support for this investigation and any support that's required. the chair: I'm afraid I'm going to have to cut you off there, if we're going by the rules that were pointed out by the House. I know that back in early January, military intelligence through CF Intelligence Command was reporting, through the chain of command, the novel coronavirus and the outbreak in Wuhan. On what date was he, as Minister of National Defence, given his first intelligence briefing on the outbreak and the pandemic in China? hon. We work with our Five Eyes intelligence sources and this has been a whole-of-government effort, right from the beginning. Obviously, I can't discuss the intelligence in this forum, but I can assure you that our response has been well informed with the correct information. james bezan: Minister Sajjan, we know that intelligence was going up the chain of command in National Defence. It was reported in the media that in early January the hierarchy within the Canadian Armed Forces was being made aware of the coronavirus outbreak. As with all our intelligence, we work together from a whole-of-government perspective with all of our intelligence agencies. One thing I can assure you is that our response has been well informed with all the correct information that is provided to me and other members of cabinet. james bezan: What was that timeline? From the time you were first told, Minister Sajjan, about the coronavirus outbreak in Wuhan, what did you do with that intelligence? When did you give it to the Prime Minister or to Minister Hajdu as the Minister of Health? hon. Chair, let me say that our government's response to this global pandemic has of course been informed by the excellent work of Canadian intelligence agencies throughout. In January, the Prime Minister convened a meeting of the incident response group, and in January we increased screening at all major airports. All of these actions were informed by the work of our excellent intelligence community, and of course our work with our Five Eyes, NATO and NORAD allies. james bezan: I want to come back the chair: We now move to Mr.Ste-Marie. gabriel ste-marie (joliette, bq): Can I go ahead, Mr.Chair? the chair: Yes, go ahead. In an interview with Grald Fillion, tax expert Andr Lareau, who specializes in tax havens, pointed out that $350billion Canadian is parked in just 12tax havens. Mr.Lareau also notes that the government is aware that all of this Canadian money is stashed in tax havens but is doing nothing about it. He said that it's time for Canada to tackle the problem given that it has a $250-billion deficit, and that if it doesn't act now to change things, it never will. diane lebouthillier (minister of national revenue): Mr.Chair, as soon as we took office, in 2015, our government made cracking down on tax evaders in Canada and abroad a priority. I realize that my fellow member is impatient, but he has to understand that this is a very complex issue. Under our leadership, in three years, the Canada Revenue Agency has undertaken twice as many audits related to offshore tax evasion as it did in the 10years the Conservatives were in power. As we speak, the agency is conducting more than 50criminal investigations tied to international tax evasion. gabriel ste-marie: You're right, I am very impatient, because whenever I bring up the fact that companies are using tax havens legally, the minister misses the point and tells me that she is going after fraudsters. Since Parliament began sitting virtually, it's been mentioned a few times that Denmark and Poland have decided to deal with the issue. Even France's finance minister, Bruno LeMaire, said that companies with subsidiaries in tax havens would not be eligible for public assistance. We hear thePrime Minister and other government officials say all the time that the wage subsidies are going to workers, so I'd like to cite another examplebanks. The government is injecting huge amounts of cash into the financial system and repurchasing troubled assets in massive quantities, and yet, the five major banks in Toronto, alone, are continuing to save billions of dollars every year by artificially redirecting their profits to tax havens. This has nothing to do with wages for workers, and everything to do with the repurchase of troubled assets, cash flow and billions of dollars that the government could be going after. Is the government going to seize this opportunity to make the corporate use of tax havens illegal? hon. diane lebouthillier: Mr.Chair, our government is taking unprecedented steps through the Canada emergency wage subsidy measure to support businesses and workers affected by COVID-19. What's more, any employer receiving the subsidy who is deemed ineligible will have to repay the full amount. Anyone who abuses the program could face a fine of up to 225% of the wage subsidy amount and up to five years in prison. the chair: Mr.Ste-Marie, you have about 30seconds to ask your question, and about the same for the answer. Although completely immoral, the use of tax havens by companies is legal under section5907 of the Income Tax Regulations. We are going to have a $250-billion deficit to pay off, and everyone is going to have to chip in, including the rich who are currently taking advantage of the system. diane lebouthillier: Mr.Chair, thanks to a historic billion-dollar investment, our government has given the agency the resources it needs to do the job, and we are starting to see results. I'm proud of how the Government of Canada has been beside Canadians through every step of this pandemic and has supported Canadians when they needed it most. In BonavistaBurinTrinity and across our country, our commercial fishery has seen many challenges and impacts. Last week, my colleague, the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans, announced an investment that will ensure resilience of the food system by allowing Canada's fish and seafood processing sector to safely and efficiently process, store, package and distribute healthy, high-quality products on to the plates of Canadians. The fish harvesters in my riding are fearful of what will happen within this industry and their immediate futures. Chair, I want to thank my colleague from BonavistaBurinTrinity for keeping us well aware of what's happening in his riding with harvesters and with processors. It's the backbone and the lifeblood of our communities and that's why we want to be there to support them. We've already taken steps by making sure that the CERB is now able to be accessed by people who are seasonal workers. As well, we are making sure that people who are running out of fishers EI are also able to qualify for it. We also have made an investment of $62.5 million to support our processors to make sure they are able to be ready for the challenges that they are going to face because of COVID-19. We are working with our partners across industry to make sure we're hearing what their major concerns are. We will have more to say about that and what we will be able to do in the coming days. Chair, in my riding of SurreyNewton, I'm in close contact with businesses that represent all the chair: We have a point of order. damien kurek (battle rivercrowfoot, cpc): Sorry, but there seems to be an issue with the audio. Chair, in my riding of SurreyNewton, I'm in close contact with businesses that represent all vantage points in the supply chainfrom manufacturers to retailers, transport companies to warehousing. With provinces and territories moving at different speeds and implementing different protocols for reopening the economy, there is a lot of confusion in my local business community on the timing and logistics of how this will happen. With so many different parts of the supply chain operating in different jurisdictions, and with each business serving unique roles on this spectrum, how can the federal government serve to best coordinate with the provinces and territories so that the supply chain can be implemented smoothly as we embark on our economic recovery? hon. One of the most important things the federal government can do when it comes to the reopening of the Canadian economy is to work in close collaboration with the premiers of the provinces and territories. That's why I was so pleased that last week the Prime Minister, together with all the first ministers of the country, was able to issue a statement around the principles that will be guiding our entire country as we move towards a restart. This is so important because, as my colleague has pointed out, all of our business, our economic activity, happens across the country. We have been able to work together in fighting coronavirus, and we are going to work together in the future to keep on fighting coronavirus and to reopen Canada. In Alberta, meat-packing plants are directly responsible for nearly a quarter of all COVID-19 cases. The government and management ignored the pleas of workers and did not put effective safety protocols in place to deal with COVID-19. Now, two workers are dead, at least six more are in intensive care and COVID-19 is spreading like wildfire through these communities. On March 27, regarding the CERB, the Minister of Finance said that if workers don't feel comfortable in their work, if they decide to stay home, they can apply for the benefit, yet the website says differently. Will the minister guarantee that every Canadian receiving CERB, EI or the CESB will not lose their benefits if they refuse to return to work or to accept work that is unsafe due to COVID-19? hon. chrystia freeland: Let me thank the member, first of all, for her really very important question. I think all of us share the concern for Canada's essential workers who are keeping us safe, putting food on our tables and often working in difficult conditions. When it comes to the Cargill plant, this is an issue that our government has been very closely engaged in. My colleague, the Minister of Agriculture, has spoken with her provincial counterpart and the head of the plant. To the question my colleague asked about workers, it is absolutely the case that no Canadian should feel they need to work in an environment that is unsafe, and it is also very much the case that any Canadian who is feeling unwell should stay at home. This is the way that collectively we take care of ourselves and we take care the chair: We will go on to Ms. heather mcpherson: I just want to be clear, because I'm not a hundred per cent sure that I got an answer in that response, so I'll try one more time. Knowing that workers have a fundamental right to refuse unsafe work, can the minister confirm one hundred per cent that if workers refuse unsafe work, they will be able to access the CERB, or was the Minister of Finance incorrect when he spoke on March 27? the chair: The honourable minister. chrystia freeland: In a time of coronavirus that is even more the case, and the government of course should not penalize workers for doing the right thing and declining to go to work in unsafe conditions. the chair: I want to remind the honourable members to place their questions through the Chair to avoid back and forth, just to try to keep some order in the meeting. If the provincial government won't shut down the plant, will the federal government shut down unsafe plants through the Canadian Food Inspection Agency? hon. Chair, on the Canadian Food Inspection Agency, let me be very clear that my colleague, the Minister of Agriculture, has been in touch with provincial authorities. The duties of the food inspection agency, of course, are to ensure that the food produced at the plant is safe. We are working closely with provincial authorities and with health authorities to ensure that the chair: We will go back to Ms. Can the finance minister please let us know if Cargill, a company that is owned by billionaires, with business in Luxembourg, a known tax haven, has received any federal funding this year for COVID-related support? hon. diane lebouthillier: This is a tough time for Canadians, and our government is doing everything it can to support them. More than 7million Canadians have applied for the Canada emergency response benefit, which the Canada Revenue Agency and Service Canada administer. I want to say how proud I am of the work the agency is doing; staff worked tirelessly to get the program up and running in record time. richard bragdon (tobiquemactaquac, cpc): Thank you, Mr. Potato farmers in New Brunswick and across Canada are sitting on massive stores of potatoes that were destined for the restaurant industry, but due to the pandemic, they now have no customers. What is the Prime Minister's plan for the helping farmers offload these potatoes so that they are ready for the 2020 season? hon. We are aware that the coronavirus, by keeping us away from restaurants where we eat french fries, has had a profound effect on the market for potatoes. The program announced today by the Prime Minister and my colleague, the Minister of Agriculture, will be very helpful for potato farmers, including with the surplus food program that starts with a $50 million fund, and that the chair: We'll go back to Mr. With an estimated $300 million worth of potatoes in storage, the announced funding from the government today simply doesn't go far enough. How does the Prime Minister plan to mitigate these shortfalls and allow farmers to continue to grow the food we so desperately need? hon. The program today is $252 million, which comes on top of the broad range of other programs that farmers, of course, have access to. On potato farmers, in particular, I agree with the honourable member that this is a specific area of concern. I think all Canadians would like to see those potatoes not be wasted but be used, and that's why the $50 million for surplus food purchase is going to be so helpful. The $16-billion beef industry is expected to take a massive hit due to the closures and reduced production of the meat-packing plants. Does the government truly believe that the announced $125 million that is shared between beef, poultry and pork producers will be enough to support these multi-billion dollar industries so they can put food on the tables of Canadians? hon. Chair, I absolutely agree with the honourable member that our beef, pork and poultry producers are absolutely essential for our country. I am very pleased as a Canadian that we have security that comes from being a country that produces not only enough food for ourselves, but also enough food to feed the world. That is why the $125 million specifically to support our beef, pork and poultry producers is going to be so helpful. Chair, the government's announcement of $252 million for the agriculture sector falls well short of the Canadian Federation of Agriculture's request for immediate government relief for farmers. The president of the Canadian Federation of Agriculture, Mary Robinson, put it today something like this: that if the farmhouse is on fire, the government has offered the equivalent of a bucket of water. Does the government have a plan to offer more than just crumbs to keep the vital agriculture sector operating and providing the food we so desperately need? When will the government finally make those who literally keep our land and grow our food a priority in this time of crisis? hon. Chair, I don't know about the honourable member, but where I come from, $252 million is not just crumbs. I would like to take this opportunity to highlight two other aspects of the essential support for farmers that we announced today: the $77 million to support food processors, which will not only be important for the processors, but helpful for the farmers who produce products that go to them; and the $250 million that we would like to add to the Canadian Dairy Commission's line of credit to raise it to half a billion dollars, which will be very helpful to our essential dairy farmers. Chair, a couple in my riding has had to shut down their business, and they are on CERB. They were shocked when their 16-year-old son also qualified, and he is receiving $8,000 on the basis of part-time work throughout the school year. Why is the government handing out a windfall to teenagers who are living at home while denying university students and ignoring seniors on fixed incomes? hon. Chair, any individual who has lost work for COVID reasons is eligible for the CERB, regardless of their personal circumstances. If you made $5,000 in the past year and are a resident of Canada, you qualify for the CERB. This is not a matter of differentiating between the personal circumstances of individuals but of acknowledging that many workers in different situations have lost their work or have had their work significantly reduced because of COVID. cathay wagantall: Clearly, high school students would not have the same needs as university students and our seniors who are suffering at this time. The government's own findings on banning handguns and assault firearms state, In all cases the data does not conclusively demonstrate that these handgun or assault weapon bans have led to reductions in gun violence. Why is the Prime Minister so bent on penalizing law-abiding firearms owners when he should be focusing on funding our CBSA officers first, giving them the resources they need to seize smuggled firearms at our borders? hon. Chair, I note with some interest that when we brought forward legislation in a budget in the last two years to increase the number of officers at the border, the member opposite voted against it. The evidence is overwhelming that these weapons are designed to be used, and have been used, to kill innocent people. Countries that adopt sensible gun policiesplaces like New Zealand, Australia, the United Kingdomhave all recognized that there's no place for these weapons in a civil society. There have been far too many people killed with these weapons, and even most recently, to honour and respect the terrible tragedy in Nova Scotia, the time to act is now, and we've acted. cathay wagantall: Last week the Minister of Agriculture said, Step by step we are giving our farmers...the tools they need to continue their...work. On April 30, the Canadian Federation of Agriculture called on the minister to create a $2.6-billion fund to maintain food security in Canada. This morning, the Prime Minister announced $252 million, hit-and-miss, across the agriculture sector. With all due respect, this is a slap in the face to our farmers and the agri-food sector. If the deputy minister is going to answer the question in her place, how does she see it is right to be providing $9 billion to students and only crumbs to our agriculture sector? hon. Chair, first of all, let me say I do not, as has now been suggested by two members opposite, consider it in any way shameful that I should be answering questions about our support for the agricultural sector. The $252 million of support is real and meaningful, and it is directed exactly where it is needed. As to the question about students, let me just point out that farm kids are students too, and farm kids will be benefiting from the support for students. Meat packing plants like Quebec-based Olymel are extremely worried that they won't be able to stay open throughout the pandemic. In the summer, these plants rely on students to do overtime and fill in for full-time employees on vacation. However, the Canada emergency student benefit makes it possible for these much-needed workers to stay home while still collecting the same amount of money. That's why the government must adjust its current summer job program for students in the agriculture and agri-food sectors. carla qualtrough: I can assure you that we are doing our best efforts to not disincentivize work. We are looking at ways we can create additional jobs through Canada summer jobs, through the the chair: There is a point of order. claude debellefeuille (salaberrysurot, bq): Mr.Chair, what the minister is saying is not being interpreted. carla qualtrough: Last week, as part of the measures announced around supporting our students, we announced the creation of 76,000 additional jobs, including jobs in the agriculture and processing sectors. This is exactly what we're doing through our youth employment and skills strategy, and that's what we'll continue to do. richard lehoux: I'm not sure the minister understood my question about the Canada emergency student benefit. I am very concerned about the agricultural sector, but the tourist and horticultural sectors are also on my mind. A number of business owners in my riding have reached out to me because the shortage of student workers is forcing them to shut down for the summer. Minister, what do you have to say to those business owners in the tourist and horticultural sectors whom you are not helping? hon. We've heard very clearly from the students that they want to work and want to serve in their communities in this time of crisis. That's why we're creating additional employment opportunities and an income support mechanism that allows them to work. Pork and beef producers are feeling the impact of the country's shutdown triggered by the pandemic. For the past five years, the government has been saying that the programs to help producers will be improved. When will the government make these changes, including the changes to agristability, and when can producers access them? hon. chrystia freeland: We announced over $77 million in assistance for food processors to help them protect their workers and deal with the costs associated with the coronavirus. To help livestock and pork producers, we established agrirecovery, a national initiative that will provide $125million to help producers adapt to market changes. The measures announced at noon today received a very cold reception from the entire agriculture and agri-food sector, since the sector had asked for about $2.6billion. I think that it's important to support our agri-food industry and our farms, given the significant need for sovereignty. Many Canadians in the agriculture and agri-food sector have made this clear, as I was saying earlier. chrystia freeland: Our country, Canada, will never depend on its neighbours or any other country for food. I want to mention another significant part of our announcement today, which is the $50million surplus food purchase program. alexandra mends (brossardsaint-lambert, lib.)): We'll now move on to the next question. blaine calkins (red deerlacombe, cpc): Madam Chair, how will the government's forced confiscation of law-abiding firearms owners' property prevent criminals from illegally acquiring firearms from the United States? hon. bill blair: Madam Chair, in response to that, I would simply remind the member that we have made it very clear that these weapons have no place in civil society, so we have prohibited military-style assault weapons that have been designed to be used to kill people and have been used to kill people. We'll bring forward new authorities, new offences, new penalties to deal with people who smuggle weapons across the border. We're also bringing in new regulations for the storage of weapons to make it more difficult for people to steal these guns. To deal with people who purchase them illegally and sell them illegally, there will be new offences and penalties to make ensure that they face the consequences. blaine calkins: The government previously has said that decisions like classifying firearms should be left to experts. A legal opinion that's already been obtained says that the bore of a 12-gauge shotgun with the choke removed is in excess of 20 millimetres. That is the same firearm that Olympic trap shooters, Olympic skeet shooters, duck hunters and geese hunters all across our country use on a very regular basis. First of all, we have prohibited large-bore weapons, such as grenade launchers, but with reference to the 10-gauge shotgun and the 12-gauge shotgun, I would simply remind the member that the bore of a 10-gauge shotgun is 19.69 millimetres in width and the bore of a 12-gauge shotgun is 18.53 millimetres in width, both of them under the size for prohibition and therefore not covered in the new prohibitions that the government introduced on Friday. blaine calkins: Madam Chair, the opinion is that of one of the foremost experts we have in Canada when it comes to firearms legislation. If the entirety of the barrel length is considered, then the removal of the choke makes that barrel in excess of 20 millimetres. There is no plan for a buyback program in this policy, and law-abiding firearms owners are not able currently to surrender their firearms. Given this, and the fact that law-abiding firearms owners aren't committing any gun violence, what was the government's immediate benefit of making this announcement on May 1? hon. Along with the prohibition that we have put in place, we have also, using the order in council, established an amnesty period, but the amnesty period is non-permissive grandfathering of those weapons. They cannot be used, they can't be taken to the range for shooting, they can't be used for hunting, they can't be sold and they can't be transferred, so we have put in strong measures to ensure that these weapons will not be available for use. We have also put in an amnesty period that will allow us to bring forward the legislation and a budget in order to effect a responsible, safe and effective buyback program to remove these weapons from society. blaine calkins: Madam Chair, since January 1, 2002, any law-abiding citizen who was issued with a firearms licence by the government would have been cross-referenced with a continuous eligibility check 6,695 times up until May 1 of this year. How many times was this most recent mass murderer here in Canada checked against a criminal database since January 2002? hon. bill blair: As the member is probably aware, there is a very extensive investigation currently being conducted into that individual and how he acquired his firearms, and it's not appropriate to discuss that. However, I think what is appropriate is to recognize that the weapons that this individual had available to him are weapons that were not designed for target shooting or hunting purposes or any sporting purposes. In the hands of someone who is intent on mass murder, they represent an unacceptable and deadly risk to Canadians, and that's why we have prohibited them. I'd also remind the member that other countries that have adopted sensible gun control laws, such as New Zealand, Australia and the United Kingdom, have also implemented very similar bans. I'd like to start by giving my condolences for the crew from the HMCS Fredericton who died, and in particular to the family of Captain Kevin Hagen. Other countries are strongly recommending that all citizens wear masks wherever people gather indoors, including in schools, on public transit and in stores. Taiwan has effectively stopped the spread of the coronavirus by supplying people with masks and installing dispensers of hand sanitizer throughout public spaces. Taiwan started in the top 10 countries affected by COVID-19, and today it is number 119. Will Canada follow Taiwan's example so we can lift the lockdown safely and get Canadians back to work? hon. patty hajdu (minister of health): Thank you very much, Madam Chair, and I thank the member for his question. There's no doubt that masks can play a role in a layered approach to protecting Canadians' health and safety, but as the member has mentioned, there are many other aspects to ensuring that Canadians are safe no matter where they go. Social distancing can provide the most protection, in fact, when you're out in public or you're in another place where there are other people. Tam has said that when physical distancing is not an option, Canadians should consider wearing a mask. I'd like to give a shout-out to Martha and her team, who are doing a fundraiser for the SPCA by making masks for citizens in my riding. Madam Chair, many people are falling through the cracks in the pandemic relief plan, including seniors who face an increase in the cost of living and a loss of retirement investment income. Will the government make the CERB a universal benefit to ensure that all Canadians who need help get help? If not, will the government increase old age security and allow seniors to withdraw funds from their RRSP without penalties so that they can pay their bills? hon. We do recognize that OAS and GIS are very important parts of the retirement income of Canadians, particularly lower-income seniors. The CERB is there for working seniors who have lost income as a result of COVID-19. We've also reduced the mandatory retirement withdrawals by 25%, and we've also spent half a billion dollars to support organizations that assist vulnerable Canadians, including seniors the acting chair (mrs. paul manly: Many small businesses do not meet the eligibility requirements for the various relief programs on offer, particularly sole proprietorships. At the same time, we have large companies in this country that use tax havens and loopholes to avoid paying their fair share of public services. Will the government ensure that the needs of small businesses are met and withhold relief from corporations that use tax havens to avoid paying taxes in Canada? hon. mary ng (minister of small business, export promotion and international trade): I want to thank the hon. That is why we have implemented many measures to help them weather this difficult period in COVID-19. Whether it is a small business loan, a wage subsidy or commercial rent assistance, or just lowering the cost by deferring GST or HST or customs duties, many measures have been put forward to help our small businesses through this very difficult time. As we navigate this pandemic crisis, we are also in the middle of another major crisis: the climate emergency. Will this government develop its economic recovery plan for the pandemic with the climate emergency at the forefront of its planning? the acting chair (mrs. The focus of the government at the present time is on combatting the virus and on steps to start to relax some of the measures that have been taken. As we look forward, we need to learn from the experiences of this crisis as well as look forward to some of the looming crises on the horizon. Climate change is one of those, and we certainly intend to reflect on resilience for the economy as we move forward. niki ashton (churchillkeewatinook aski, ndp): Thank you, Madam Chair. First nations across northern Manitoba and many others across the country have been doing everything possible to keep COVID-19 out of their communities. Many here have implemented strict lockdowns or travel restrictions, but the federal government has done virtually nothing to deal with the chronic issues that have made them vulnerable in the first place, such as overcrowded housing and the lack of hospitals. What is your government doing to support communities in the face of that possibility? Why isn't the government supporting the call for a ventilation centre in Berens River, a hospital in Cross Lake, a hospital in the Island Lake region? If the government couldn't act in time for this first wave of the pandemic, can it at least act in time for a potential second wave? hon. marc miller (minister of indigenous services): Indeed, Madam Chair, one of the reflections we have in coming out of this global pandemic is that we don't want to go into the next one with the same social determinants of health that have made indigenous communities more vulnerable and more susceptible to contracting and then spreading COVID-19. A lot of the historic housing funds that we have mobilized in order to address overcrowding in particular are cold comfort to those communities that are still finding themselves in overcrowded situations. In the staged approach to the epidemic and the onset of COVID-19, there are many measures that Indigenous Services Canada and as a whole of government we will deploy, including surge capacity, increased PPE, and nurses and doctors. Obviously, we are looking for a medical solution to a medical problem, and that is what we will spare no expense or resource to address as indigenous communities continue to face the looming threat of a second wave of COVID-19 as they start to relax some of their confinement procedures. niki ashton: Again, Madam Chair, to the Minister of Indigenous Services, many of us across northern Canada are deeply concerned by the outbreak taking place in northern Saskatchewan, centred in La Loche. Your government says it's committed to doing everything it can to keep first nations safe, yet nothing has been done to support calls for pandemic shutdowns. Will you support first nations in their call for shutdowns during this pandemic to save lives now? hon. Members won't be surprised to know that that number will only increase as the days go on and as we implement aggressive testing and contact tracing. We are working with surrounding first nations and communities and with the Mtis and Dene communities in La Loche to ensure that medical precautions are being put into place and that strict social distancing is being put into effect. This is a situation that is very much evolving minute by minute, and it is something for which we have deployed additional resources, along with Meadow Lake and the Northern Inter-Tribal Health Authority to ensure that there is a health response to a health problem. marc miller: One of the things we see as we see the evolving dynamic and the potential spreads, particularly the fear of clusters as communities, provinces, territories may choose to relax certain measures, is the need to have a more targeted approach as to how the economy reacts and deals with it, particularly in northern and vulnerable communities. This is something for which we will need to have a serious approach, with both the Minister of Natural Resources and also our provincial counterparts, to make sure that we aren't taking hasty measures to reopen the economy while we're trying to protectand this is our most important goalindigenous communities from getting exposed and spreading COVID-19. Hundreds of fishers and their families here in Manitoba who work with the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation are desperately calling for emergency support. Many are calling on the federal government to also work with them and the FFMC to redirect their product to domestic markets and communities here at home to address the growing food insecurity people are facing. When will your government announce support for inland fishers, including here in Manitoba, and will you work to ensure that their product, healthy fish, can be provided here at home for people who need it? hon. bernadette jordan: Madam Chair, we know that COVID-19 is having extreme impacts on northern first nations communities, especially with regard to fisheries in areas that rely on it for not only their livelihoods but also for the cultural importance. Indigenous harvesters are able to access through the aboriginal financial institutions the $306 million we've put in for support for indigenous small and medium-sized businesses. The funding allows for short-term interest-free loans as well as for non-repayable contributions. We also announced earlier that the Canadian Northern Economic Development Agency has made available $15 million in non-repayable support for businesses. We know that there's more that needs to be done to support our first nations communities as well as our harvesters. I don't want to talk about the $1billion that the government used to track down tax cheats. I want to ask the minister why she isn't taking this opportunity to learn from countries that are putting an end to tax avoidance in tax havens, a legal but immoral practice in this day and age. Can she explain why she isn't showing leadership by convincing cabinet to change course and eliminate the legal measure known as tax avoidance, which enables companies to avoid paying taxes and put money in tax havens? hon. diane lebouthillier: MadamChair, as soon as our government took office in 2015, we made it a priority to crack down on tax cheats. Our government's historic investments of almost $1 billion have ensured that the agency can access the necessary resources for its work. claude debellefeuille: MadamChair, does the minister realize that she's being filmed and recorded and that she isn't answering my question? I don't want to talk about cheats. I want to talk about companies that use a legal mechanism to avoid paying taxes and to put their money in tax havens. Can she tell me how many companies legally take advantage of tax avoidance in tax havens? How much money escapes taxation through this legal mechanism? The government could invest this money in its economic recovery post-COVID-19. Regarding tax evasion abroad, our leadership made it possible for the agency to conduct twice as many audits in three years as it conducted in 10 years under the Conservatives. However, I don't understand the government's lack of willingness to eliminate this mechanism, which is legal but completely immoral. The Fdration de la relve agricole du Qubec and the UPA approached the Minister of Finance two weeks ago and still haven't received a response regarding the following issue. As a result, these farms are being penalized because they aren't eligible for the $40,000 in loans available through the Canada emergency business account. To qualify for these loans, the farms needed a payroll of $20,000 to $1.5million in 2019. Does the Minister of Finance plan to respond to the farmers who want to access the $40,000 in loans? hon. The tourism ministry was one of the first and hardest-hit industries during this crisis, yet despite the Prime Minister's announcement over three weeks ago now of a plan to bring forward a tourism-specific aid package to help the businesses who employ millions of unemployed Canadians who work in tourism, there's still been nothing from this government. I had the chance to talk to many of the leaders in the sector, and clearly there's a lot of anxiety. We also had the chance to work with all the G20 ministers of tourism all together, and we know we have to act the chair: We'll now go back to Mr. Tourism-based communities like the ones in Banff and Canmore, which I represent, are tourism-based economies and have unemployment rates of 85% or higher. They also don't qualify for a lot of the programs because they're seasonal businesses and make most or all of their revenues for the year from May to October, so they're at risk of losing their entire season. Will the government consider making changes to the programs to make sure that seasonal businesses can get help? What does the government plan to do to help the tourism industry recover after the pandemic? hon. Obviously, the tourism sector has access to many measures, including the CEBA account, the $40,000 account. They will be having access also to funding through the regional development agencies, and we'll be coming up with the details soon. Of course, in my colleague's riding of Banff, which is a fantastic place and a tourism gem, they will have access to the support through WD, western economic diversification. If there are particular cases you would like to raise with me, I would be more than happy to talk to you to see how, on the ground, we can help the tourism operators. It doesn't address anything about their concerns about the hard economic recovery they'll have after the pandemic. Another industry that's very hard hit in my province and my riding is the oil and gas industry. It's another industry the Prime Minister has promised to help, but there hasn't been anything. The only so-called assistance there's been to help hurting Albertans in the oil patch has been measures to speed up the death of the industry that they work in. Will the Liberal government ever show any concern for Albertans? Will they bring forward a plan to preserve Canadian jobs? Will they put forward a plan to ensure the use of Canadian oil before oil coming in from places like Saudi Arabia? hon. Chair, the federal government has taken several steps in recent weeks that will meaningfully support workers and communities that depend on this industry. We have the Canada emergency wage subsidy, which covers 75% of an employee's wages for the employer. We have more liquidity for oil and gas companies through new loans of $15 million to $60 million from the Business Development Bank of Canada. We continue to step forward in our response to the impacts of COVID-19 on my province here in Newfoundland and Labrador and on Alberta and Saskatchewan. These three provinces are being hit by two crises at the same time, a crisis of demand for oil and gas on the world markets and of course a crisis of public health with COVID-19. Chair, a lot of these things we're hearing about aren't going to actually help the industry to recover. Maybe what they could do is consider expediting the approval of billions of dollars of private sector projects that would put thousands and thousands of Canadians back to work. Will the government consider looking at ways that we can expedite projects? Will they look at ways that we can encourage the use of Canadian oil before the use of oil coming in from places like Saudi Arabia? hon. We have been working with labour, concentrating on workers and concentrating on the companies that support those jobs to make sure that they remain whole and those jobs will be there for those workers. We're particularly proud of our orphan wells program, which was launched by the Alberta government in conjunction with us. I am pleased to inform this House that the uptake on applications for that program is significantly higher than even we expected<doc-sep>I've received apologies for absence from Siân Gwenllian, and I'm very pleased to welcome Helen Mary Jones, who is substituting for Siân today. Can I ask whether Members want to declare any interests, please? Can I just, then, place on record that I have got a son who was about to do A-levels, so is affected by the exam decision? We'll move on, then, to our substantive item today, which is an evidence session with the Welsh Government around the impact of the coronavirus pandemic on education in Wales. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams, Minister for Education; Steve Davies, who is director of the education directorate; Huw Morris, who is the group director, skills, higher education and lifelong learning; and Rob Orford, who is the chief scientific adviser for health. We know that this is a really difficult and pressurised time for everyone, and we appreciate your attendance. As you know, it's not usually my practice to do that, but I think it is important today. COVID-19 coronavirus is one of the most significant issues that the Welsh Government and the people of Wales have dealt with in recent times. But I would like to assure you that our aim, and my aim, and my main concern as the education Minister is to protect all staff and pupils in our schools and other educational settings. Public health is clearly the priority here, but that does not change our belief that no child should miss out on any education, unless absolutely necessary. So, the decision to close all schools from tomorrow for statutory education provision was not taken lightly, but I believe it was necessary, given the advice and recommendations that we had received from a public health perspective and the situation that was developing on the ground. They will help support those most in need, including people involved in the immediate response to the coronavirus outbreak, and I'm working with my colleagues in the Cabinet, with Government officials and our partners in local government to develop and finalise these plans. The key areas that we're looking at are supporting and safeguarding the vulnerable and ensuring continuity of learning. I can confirm that all maintained schools in Wales already have access to a range of digital tools that can support distance learning through the world-class Hwb digital learning platform, including virtual classrooms and video-conferencing facilities. A guide on what tools are available and how schools can use them has been developed and is being promoted widely. Yesterday, I announced that, whilst there are no easy choices, we have agreed that the best way forward is not to proceed with the summer exam series. Learners due to sit these exams will be awarded a fair grade to recognise their work, drawing on a range of information that is available, and I will announce further details shortly, but I felt it necessary to give early certainty to students and to staff. I would like to put on record my thanks to everyone working in education settings for the hard work that they have put in over the last few months in dealing with the virus and ensuring that pupils have been able to continue to learn. We need to continue to do this work together, as we face the continuing challenges posed by the coronavirus. We'll go to questions from Members now, and I've got some questions from Dawn Bowden. Can I thank you, Kirsty, for your statement and the really difficult decisions that you've been having to make? You've already indicated in your statement this morning that these decisions are not taken lightly, and we understand that that is the case across Government. You've outlined a little bit further there in your statement to us this morning about the new purpose. I take from what you're saying that you haven't really developed that yet in terms of exactly what that is going to look like. Is there anything else you can tell us about that at the moment and how you might staff the schools in those particular areas? kirsty williams am: Thank you, Dawn. So, you're absolutely right, our priority now is to operationalise, with colleagues in local government and schools, a practical response. And I have to say, we're working to timescales that I would have hoped to have avoided, but given the fact that we're having to make these decisions quite quickly, I hope that you will understand that perhaps where we start on Monday might change when we have more time and more opportunities to develop programmes going forward. Steve will be able to give you more details of the practical work that has already been going on, but our expectation will be that schools will be playing an important part in providing safe and secure places for children of those on the front-line response to dealing with the coronavirus to attend, and work is already under way with local authorities and individual schools on what that will look like for the emergency situation on Monday. Our other priority is indeed free school meals, and, again, where we eventually end up might be a different place to where we are on Monday. Again, we're responding to the emergency situation that there will be families that were expecting a free school meal on Monday, and, again, individual schools and local authorities are developing those plans at pace to be able to provide an emergency response as we work out a longer term plan to deal with the situation. The same thing also goes for additional learning needs, and attending to the needs of that particular group of learners. I had the opportunity to meet with the First Minister and Andrew Morgan, the leader of the Welsh Local Government Association, yesterday to talk about what local government could do, and what they were already doing. Those plans in some places are already quite developed, and are now working at pace, but I hope you will understand that where we start on Monday is the emergency response, and that work will develop as we go forward. But, Steve, perhaps you could—? Because Steve was the one making all those phone calls and doing the practical operational stuff, rather than me. steve davies: In short, the new purpose is to meet the needs of particular groups of children and young people. In some cases, some of the response to supporting free school meals, in the short term in particular, we may use the schools as part of that, and I'm certain that will happen in some cases. Now, there is still work to be done on identifying exactly the categories of key workers, but I think it's really encouraging that in my discussions yesterday—I spoke with all 22 directors of education, and the examples we're picking up in their work with schools is they're already ahead of the curve in working with schools. They're vulnerable sometimes in terms of education other than at school, vulnerable in terms of mental health, and for those children, as well as having an experience that we want to be planned, some have compared it to a snow day, particularly on Monday, when you're putting something together in the short term, but it will not be a formal curriculum that those children would normally go through. So, the range of activities—some will be focused on educational activities, some will be cultural, some will be sporting, and that plan will be developed on the basis of the age range of children, which in some cases may go from extremely young children up to those at the age of 16 in our all-through schools, but there will be a planned set of activities to cater for those children. What we are doing currently—I have staff back at Cathays Park who are in touch and working with directors of education to ensure that schools over the next two days will have been able to identify, at least at the earlier stage, in terms of health workers, the type and numbers of people. There are already schools who have informed us, and local authorities, of their plans for these activities to be starting next week, which is quite amazing, actually, given where we are. But we are expecting, and we're writing to schools today, that during the course of next week, headteachers to be in schools, and with their staff, taking into consideration the health guidance as to which staff should or should not be in, and in that period from next Monday through the two-week period, to Easter, we expect staff to be both planning for delivery post Easter, but also, as I said, building on and reflecting the good practice that's already in place for schools that have engaged in activities, and I'm sure a number of them will be inviting and enabling those children to come in on Monday. So, Monday will be a challenge for some, and not all will be delivering it, but we will be working so that we can get as much as possible delivered for those groups over the next two weeks, and particularly to have resilient programmes post Easter for the groups of children in those three categories that I said. Can I just clarify one thing? One of the identified vulnerable groups would clearly be children on the at-risk register. kirsty williams am: In our discussions, we have asked local government to be working with the social services departments and individual schools to identify those children who may be in that situation. We know that, for some children, being at school is part of their safeguarding arrangements, and obviously we will need to be able to respond to those needs. steve davies: I wrote specifically yesterday to all directors of education to be assured that, for those children, the register is up to date and the plans are in place. I'm working with Albert Heaney my colleague, the director for social services, who is meeting with the 22 directors of social services today to look to ensure that we are joined up in ensuring none of these children fall through the gap. hefin david am: A very quick and simple question: how are you going to communicate this to parents? There's a bigger picture and it's changing all the time, as you said. The most helpful thing I've seen is that Public Health Wales have a single website with information regarding the wider issue of the virus. How will this then be cascaded to schools, because there's obviously a time lag? So, have you considered how this is going to be communicated directly to parents? kirsty williams am: We're using all of our platforms of communication to get these messages across. So, we're using the more informal methods of communication, but are relying on a systematic approach via individual directors and through to individual schools. We're looking, as quickly as we can, to have a frequently asked education questions page that we can update. It is impossible for the communications team here to be able to respond individually to every single person that is sending Facebook messages and sending tweets, so the best way we can do that is to collate the types of questions people are asking and then to be able to have a frequently updated question and answer page to try to respond to that. With regard to parents, for instance, we're aware of schools that have already sent a questionnaire out last night to parents saying, 'Do you consider yourself to be a key worker? Do you work in the NHS? Please let us know by tomorrow so we can put arrangements in place for your children.' So, schools are already taking the initiative and having those conversations with parents about what their needs will be. It won't be perfect by Monday, because we're working to such constrained timescales. We also have to think about systems that look at what might the epidemic do and have systems of resilience that may work next week, given the situation we find ourselves in with public health advice at the moment. Therefore, have we got a system that will be resilient in those circumstances? These are some of the challenges that we're having to grapple with. So, as I said, what happens on Monday might look very different to where we are if schools are still off in May. suzy davies am: Yes, just on this question of vulnerable children, I'm just wondering how much discretion teachers are going to have in including individual children who may not be obviously under social services' care or on a risk register or whatever. Teachers know their pupils and, very sensitively, they could include people who may not be obviously in need. kirsty williams am: We would absolutely respect the professional judgment of individual headteachers to be able to have those conversations with their directors. As you said, quite rightly, they are the individuals who know their children best and know which children, perhaps, will need this extra support. The second part of my question is: there were going to be Easter holidays anyway, weren't there? What was going to happen about free-school-meal children during that period? Has that gone out of the window now, the normal holiday provision for children? Because that's not there normally, is it, except in separate— kirsty williams am: We do find ourselves in a strange situation. My understanding is what we're trying to work to is that we would have ongoing provision and not to make some strange, 'You get this for two weeks, then you don't get it for two weeks, and then you're back in.' My understanding is, in England, that is what they're going to do. We're trying to create a system where it will be seamless and it will not necessarily matter that two of those weeks were formally holidays. It won't matter to those nurses and doctors who will need to be in work during those weeks. helen mary jones am: Just briefly, building on Suzy's question, one particular group of children and young people that I hope will be eligible to be included in the potentially vulnerable category is young carers. For some of them, they may not be able to come into school because the people they're caring for may have to be excluded because of their conditions. But I think that, for other young carers, coming to school is an absolute lifeline, because they're working at home. So, I don't know if it's appropriate for you to specifically mention those in discussions with local authorities, but it's a group of young people who, again, may not be vulnerable in other ways, but because of their caring responsibilities they may need school. And the other group—and this, I suppose, goes back to Suzy's point about teachers knowing their young people—is the children who may be living in situations where they're at risk of witnessing domestic abuse. Again, these may very well not be children who are in any formal contact with social services, but being at home may be really not a good place for them to be. So, again, I'd put in an appeal for that to be something that perhaps can be raised with schools. If a teacher is worried about what a child's circumstances are like at home, whether they can be, as you said, Kirsty, included as one of the—. They may not be formally identified, but if the teacher knows that they're at risk, or there is an instinct that they're at risk, they might be able to be included in children who are allowed to take advantage of this special provision you're making at this difficult time. We have to do that in the context of what is deliverable, and we also have to do that in the context of the public health advice that we are receiving as well. We know that the ability for school closures to make a contribution to that diminishes if we have significant children in school still. So, we will take these issues into consideration, but remembering this is part of an epidemic mitigation plan. This is a rapidly-evolving problem and the scale is something that we haven't seen in 100 years, and so we're having to evolve and iterate things as we go. We've all got a role to play, and schools certainly have a significant role to play in breaking those chains of transmission. We need to send a really clear message that you're all part of the solution, and the things that you do by distancing yourselves from your friends and your family are really important for us to get on top of this outbreak. helen mary jones am: I'm sure that that's true, but I'm sure that we wouldn't be wanting a child who's in a very pressured environment with perhaps a very difficult relationship between mum and dad—. janet finch-saunders am: Thank you, Chair, and good morning, Minister, and your team. Can I just put on record my thanks for all that you're having to endure at this moment? I think it's fair to say you have the support of Assembly Members and, indeed, our communities. Now, the question I have: if Cylch Meithrin have to close, where will they get money from to pay their staff? Because, currently, thankfully, there's support for businesses. lynne neagle am: Janet, we're not doing Cylch Meithrin at the moment; we are sticking with schools, as we discussed in advance. dawn bowden am: Can I just get some clarity, Steve, around what you were saying in terms of next week? Because I think the practical applications of this—and I understand that you don't know all of this yet, I understand that—the practical applications are what is coming to us, obviously, with constituents saying, 'Well, what's going to happen to that?' Just so that I can be clear, are you saying that, at this stage, every headteacher will be in school on Monday, as will all their staff? steve davies: Within the scope of the guidance in terms of their health, the expectation—and this will be conveyed in letters by the Minister today, to be made clear—is that they are closing for the majority of pupils, but our expectation within the guidance is that the headteacher with their staff will be coming in; for some to start the delivery of what we just described, but that will probably be small numbers, but more importantly to plan to ensure that, after the formal Easter period, which is school holidays, the schools are geared to cater for the range of pupils that we've been discussing. dawn bowden am: So, would you anticipate—again, I know this is all a bit 'if and when', and it depends on the changing nature of the advice, but from what you're saying, I think we can probably anticipate that, as we go forward, there will probably be fewer schools opening and operable—that we may be moving those children on to fewer sites. So, we already know that one of our local authorities already has identified a strategic pattern of schools that they will want to operate in this way. That local authority has already chosen those locations, and is already having communications with how they will then staff those centres. That, I expect, in the longer term, will be the nature of the provision that we will get to. The local authorities are best placed to understand what is the best, pragmatic use of the resources that they have available; and of course those resources, primarily, are human beings. So, we've talked a lot this morning in the context of teaching staff, teaching assistants, but we're also having discussions with local authorities, and I met with the Council for Wales of Voluntary Youth Services this week, to look at deploying youth workers, to look to be deploying other staff that the local authority may employ, like sports development officers. Welsh Government will be talking with a range of our partners who perhaps their normal activities can't continue at the moment, but actually have personnel who want to add to this effort, who want to be able to be part of a provision going forward in the longer term, to be able to provide a great place for children to be. Let's think about it, in these worst of times, we're asking parents to leave their children so that they can go and do essential work, and some of that essential work is putting themselves at risk, potentially. And we want to give those parents confidence that, when they leave their child with us, that child will receive something really worthwhile, and they can direct all of their attention to doing their job. Janet, have you got a supplementary on schools now, not on early years settings? janet finch-saunders am: I lost the signal before, so it's a little bit confusing at this end, so bear with me. Just in terms of the closure of schools, I have been asked by teachers what does new purpose—you may have covered it, but bear in mind [Inaudible.]—mean in practice. And also, they're already asking what will next—? I know you said earlier that next week could look and probably will look significantly different than this week, but what can they expect to be happening next week in terms of this new purpose work? lynne neagle am: We've covered that, Janet. kirsty williams am: First of all, Janet, I just want to say thank you very much for your kind comments. lynne neagle am: I think you're having trouble hearing us, aren't you, so I think—? janet finch-saunders am: No, I heard that loud and clear. lynne neagle am: But I think you missed the earlier comments, when we went into some detail on the new purpose of schools. dawn bowden am: Just in relation to special schools and how they will fit into this new purpose arrangement. We know, again, that some of these children are our most vulnerable and they are some of our most pressurised families. We'll be having discussions about what arrangements can be made for those children within their own usual settings. Can I give a shout out to the work of Rhondda Cynon Taf in this regard, who are already doing some excellent work with regard to how they can keep in touch with their children who usually would attend their special schools. steve davies: I think special schools have already been hit by this challenge, because a significant proportion of their children, because of their conditions, have not been coming to school, they've been isolated. But the principle we've used there is, actually, even if it's a minority of children who go to those schools and are vulnerable, they deserve and need that support through the school. But similarly, even in special schools, there will be children whose parents will be key workers, so we would expect them to apply that same principle. Just quickly in response to the earlier question, while we may bring some groups of children into separate schools, we’ll have to continue with the principle of keeping social distance and any provision for a child in a special school in a different setting would be unlikely, given the nature of the special school, so we would look to cater for that within the original school. It’s likely, because I know it has already happened, that some schools might actually close before Monday. Are you quite happy that headteachers still have the discretion to do that, if they feel that’s the right thing to do? kirsty williams am: In this situation, the discretion of the head still remains. As I said, we will be communicating with all schools today about our expectations, if at all possible, to have schools open for staff to do some of this planning and to be able to respond to these priority needs that we've just talked about. steve davies: The rationale of headteachers for closing schools up to now has been that they can't cope with the safety of the children. I think, moving forward, it's unlikely that that would be a rationale that headteachers would want to use for not engaging and planning for the future. dawn bowden am: We're only talking about one more day, now, anyway, aren't we? So, just in terms of confirmed cases in schools, is your view at this stage that, if there is a confirmed case in a school, once that school has been deep-cleaned, it can reopen again? kirsty williams am: If we had a confirmed case in a school, then all the usual mechanisms arranged by Public Health Wales would kick in at that point. I know that kind of crosses over into somebody else's portfolio as well, but I think we know that. Certainly what I've seen, and I'm sure this is true elsewhere as well, we've seen nurseries closing down because the parents are actually taking the children out of those nurseries. I've got one in particular, there are kids from the ages of 6 to 12 years in there, and the parents are taking them out. They've got 30 staff there, catering for 200 children and no children to care for and the organisation, at this stage, is unable to claim on their insurance for the ongoing payment of those staff wages. Is there any advice that we can give to people in that situation at this stage? kirsty williams am: Sure. As you say, many of these settings are businesses—people's businesses and they play a hugely important role and it's a very worrying time for them. We have said that we will continue to pay for childcare, delivered under the childcare offer even when a child is unable, or a parent is unwilling, to take up that place. So, if that setting is receiving a childcare payment from the Welsh Government as part of our childcare offer, that will be paid, regardless of whether that child attends or not. And I know that we're also working with local authorities to ensure a similar position on Flying Start childcare and early education. It's also important that childcare settings will be able to apply for the various packages of support that are being made available by my colleague, Ken Skates. hefin david am: Yes, I'd just like to turn that around from the parents' point of view. With schools closing, there are a lot of parents then losing 10 hours of free childcare, but from a settings point of view, they'll continue to be able to receive, for the time being, the nursery care. kirsty williams am: Yes, so the decision that has been taken by my colleague, Julie Morgan, is that settings should stay open at the moment unless public health changes. Again, the issue is that we know that that childcare is vital to many families, especially—and we're particularly concerned about those individuals who are trying to help us overcome and solve these problems. If you have any specific questions about that, we'll be happy to take them back to Julie Morgan. janet finch-saunders am: Is this the Cylch question? lynne neagle am: Yes, please. Yes, just basically, Cylch Meithrin, there are concerns—[Interruption.] lynne neagle am: We've lost Janet. kirsty williams am: I think if the issue is about funding for Cylch Meithrin, these are not normal circumstances. As a Welsh Government, we will take every step to provide continuity of funding, if at all possible. We will overcome this, and when we overcome this situation we find ourselves in, we will need those childcare settings, we will need those private businesses and we will need our Cylch Meithrin to be there to respond and to be able to go on doing the job that they usually do for us. And if there is any way that we can, as a Government, ensure that that happens by carrying on funding things, even if they are not able to run, all usual—[Inaudible.]— around service-level agreements are off. [Laughter.] But, you know, we will not undermine businesses and voluntary provision like Cylch by withdrawing Welsh Government funding. lynne neagle am: If we can move on to talk about exams, obviously you made the announcement yesterday. I completely understand that everything is a very fast-moving situation, but, as you know, there are a lot of questions that people have about young people who've put a lot of work in. Are you able to tell us any more today? In particular, have you got any idea about timescales now for setting out what the approach will be to handling the lack of summer exams? kirsty williams am: Yes, it is a devastating decision to have to have been taken, but I have done so on the very, very clear and unambiguous advice from Qualifications Wales. What was most important to them was that I made an early decision and I did not equivocate on what would happen for the exams. I was able to make an informal decision at that meeting, and then, of course, there is a formal process that we have to go through. That, now, allows Qualifications Wales and the exam board to operationalise that decision, and they will be communicating with schools as quickly as possible about what schools will need to do to ensure that the systems that they will now put in place can work. We are trying, as far as we can, as I understand it, to be able to mirror as closely as possible the usual results day, for instance. It might not be possible, because, of course, we're dealing with a situation that requires human beings to be involved in it, and those human beings could find themselves unwell. So, our best attempts will be to maintain the normal rhythm of an exams day in August, but that has to be caveated by the fact that we're dealing with difficult circumstances. But, the WJEC and Qualifications Wales will be making urgent communications to exam centres to explain what will need to happen next. janet finch-saunders am: Yes, I think I raised it yesterday, Kirsty, but you were receiving loads of questions. I'd just ask for some further clarification about coursework, because only 30 per cent of that is done. Years 11 and 13, typically, in my case they're what's been raised with me—do you have any advice for them? kirsty williams am: Okay, so, all exams are cancelled, but year 11 and year 13 will be given a grade—I think that's a distinction that people need to be aware of. That is because those years and those grades are gateway qualifications, and they are points of movement in the education system. So, it's really important for those students that they are not disadvantaged in any way by not being able to receive a grade that helps them to make a decision as a qualifying step into what they will do next, whether that be university, whether that be a degree apprenticeship or whether that be going into sixth form, into a college, into an apprenticeship or into some work-based learning opportunities. That's why we have to focus on those children, because for them, it is absolutely critical that we do. We are at an advantage in Wales, can I say? Because of the nature of our examination system, those students already have a lot of externally assessed work that we can use as a basis to move forward on. Our year 11s, if they're doing triple science, they've already done 40 per cent of their paper, so we're very fortunate. Because of the structures that we have got in our qualification system, there is already lots and lots of externally-verified work that we can use, alongside, potentially, teacher evaluation of students as well. What will also be important is that these children have confidence in those qualifications, and so we will be looking at a modulated arrangement within Wales, and I know that Qualifications Wales are discussing with their counterparts across the UK a modulated system across the UK. So, actually, we can make sure that our standards are maintained by actually having that modulation across the UK. So, we know that those children never have to worry about the rigour that has gone into determining that grade. You'll know that the National Union of Students has suggested that black and minority ethnic children and children from the working class, on the whole, don't do as well, in terms of their assessment by their own teachers. We also know, of course, that boys tend to do better in exams, and girls tend to do better at coursework, for whatever reason that is. So, just to ask you at this early stage to build in those considerations around potential unconscious bias into that overall system that you're talking about. And, of course, you are right to say that, because we have got some elements of external moderation here, those factors may be less for us in Wales than they might for colleagues in England. kirsty williams am: Yes, I think we are starting at a different base, thank goodness. As I said, students will have done unit 1 papers last year if they're GCSE students. I have every confidence that they and the WJEC will come up with a very comprehensive way of establishing those grades, but I have to say, in some ways, I have to step back now, because you would not expect me, in normal circumstances, to dictate to the WJEC how much percentage goes for that, and how much percentage is allocated for that; that would not be appropriate for a Minister. My job is to make the decision on the examinations on the basis of having confidence that what can be put in place is fair and is equitable, and I have confidence that that will be the case. One is, obviously, pupils are being asked to work at home as well now, some of whom will be doing GCSE and A-level courses. So, there's just a question, generally, from me— because we're encouraging these kids to carry on working—how that will be accommodated by Qualifications Wales, I guess, in this modulation process. It may be that your at-home work will be of a higher standard or a lower standard than a teacher would be expecting. Secondly, you mentioned the AS-levels, of course, as being of value at the moment, but we've got people in Year 12 who now won't be doing their ASs. Is there any steer at this stage about what they will be expected to do? Will they be doing two sets of exams next year, for example? Or is AS just off the table? In which case, how are the A2s going to be calculated in due course? And then, finally from me, we do have some vocational qualifications that are up for examination as well—your BTECs, and I think it's the Association of Accounting Technicians, which is a lot of computer-based learning—which is due to be examined within three weeks. I appreciate that you may not have the answer just at the moment, but are they off as well is the question, I guess? kirsty williams am: With regard to AS-levels—no final decision has been made for exactly how those students will be treated. There are a range of options that could be used, but again, we will want to be thinking about student well-being, fairness and equity in that regard, and I will update Members as soon as I have received definitive advice from Qualifications Wales around that, and that hasn't happened yet. With regard to other types of qualifications, as you will be aware, the vast majority of BTECs is a modular, continually-assessed piece of work, and we would have every expectation that BTECs will be able to be awarded, but clearly, those conversations are with awarding bodies—they tend to be UK awarding bodies, rather then necessarily our WJEC exam board—and those conversations are ongoing. But I have every expectation that those qualifications will be awarded and, of course, because of their nature there's even more evidence of continued assessment. Huw, I don't know if there's anything else that you would like to add about those types of qualifications. I don't have a definitive answer for the ATT qualification, but we can look into that and come back to you. suzy davies am: Well, I've just had a constituent ask, so that would be very helpful. suzy davies am: —is that going to count towards the assessments, overall assessments? kirsty williams am: Well, potentially, as I said. What will be absolutely necessary is that Qualifications Wales and the WJEC will be able to give absolute clarity and simplicity around how those grades will be arrived at, because parents, teachers and students will want to know that, and my expectation is on them to be able to clearly communicate what elements will and will not be taken into consideration when awarding those grades. lynne neagle am: And, just before we move on, have the universities across the UK indicated that they are content with this approach going forward—content to accept students on this basis? kirsty williams am: Certainly. There have been discussions with universities and UCAS, of course, that this also has a bearing on. And the views of university and how university terms might be impacted is one of the ways and one of the reasons that we've factored in to making these decisions. Those discussions with universities are ongoing, aren't they, Huw? huw morris: Yes. So, we've been in regular conversation with Universities Wales and through them with Universities UK and we've received every indication that the approach that's been adopted here has been welcomed by the institutions. Those conversations will continue as we work through the practicalities of how the gradings that are awarded are going to feed through into university admissions decisions and enrolment. Well, we've got some questions now from Suzy on the potential closures of colleges and universities. I appreciate you've already indicated there are lots of ongoing conversations, but my understanding is whether colleges or universities close is pretty much still at their own discretion. We're going to be asking some questions on emergency legislation shortly, which may impact on the answer you can give today, but what sort of conversations are you having with FE and HE at the moment about how they decide? kirsty williams am: Well, you're absolutely right. As we often say in this committee, universities are autonomous institutions—a status that they guard jealously and we would never want to question. Universities have been making the decision to move as much of their learning online as they possibly can and we continue to have conversations with them. Colleges are in a similar position, looking to do as much as they can to be able to provide continuity of learning via distance learning methods, and the Bill, potentially, does give us more powers of intervention in both the FE and the HE sector. suzy davies am: I might ask you about that in a minute, because I don't even know what the Bill says yet. kirsty williams am: Huw, I don't know if there's anything you want to add. huw morris: No—just to confirm what's been said and also to add in that independent training providers, similarly autonomous, like colleges and universities, have been moving in the same direction. We've been very impressed with the maturity and forward-planning that's been adopted by all of those institutions and their representative bodies. We've got consistency in the approach and a common desire, and investment in moving towards online support for students. Certainly, colleges have indicated, as with schools, that, for the most vulnerable learners, they'll have something in place that might permit attendance on an individual basis. huw morris: That's my understanding, yes, and, again, we've been in regular conversation with them about that. My understanding is that they're going to spend the next week working through the detail of how that will work for the institutions. You indicated that any Welsh Government support's going to stay, whatever the circumstances are—in your portfolio. helen mary jones am: Just further to EMA, of course, at the moment, that has an attendance qualification, doesn't it? And you don't get your EMA if you don't turn up. Should we take from your last answer that that attendance qualification doesn't apply anymore? kirsty williams am: Yes. They can't turn up if the institution is not open, and that's not their fault. helen mary jones am: No, but that is something that's been a worry, so that's really encouraging to hear. Thinking about students in higher education, can you give an assurance that student maintenance payments will continue as normal? Is that the intention? kirsty williams am: Yes. And have you given any special ministerial instruction to Student Finance Wales on processing applications for support or changes of circumstances, or is that something that's kind of ongoing at the moment? kirsty williams am: Those conversations are ongoing with the Student Loans Company. Individual student circumstances could well change and our expectation would be that the Student Loans Company would respond to that. All I would say is, just to remind people: people who work for the Student Loans Company are no more able to resist this disease than anybody else. There will undoubtedly in some cases be really practical challenges to service delivery, simply because organisations could be losing staff because of illness or the need to self-isolate or because they are reacting to social-distancing messages from the Government. So, I think we just need to bear that in mind: that these organisations are doing their best, but, if they are badly affected by staff numbers being off because of the virus, then I hope people will give them due consideration. helen mary jones am: Yes, that makes sense, of course, because we've been told that universities won't be able to entirely close, because there will be students who can't go home— kirsty williams am: It is their home. What discussions have you been having with the sector to make sure that those students' basic needs are met, that there's still food, shelter, whatever they need? kirsty williams am: Well, obviously, universities have a duty of care to those students that find themselves in those circumstances, and every conversation that Huw's been having would suggest that universities are well aware of their need to do that. huw morris: We instituted a monitoring process very early on in the onset of the disease, not least because a number of institutions have campuses and activities in China and other parts of south-east Asia. And so, as the disease has progressed, we've seen lessons being learned from the support for students who are in isolation coming from there to the UK, and I am assured that the universities here in Wales have got processes in place that support those learners. And on this specifically—last question from me— have you considered whether students might need to be refunded some of their tuition fees, should the academic year not be completed? huw morris: So, as the institutions move more and more of their material and some of their assessment online, clearly, there are lessons that will need to be taken on board. There are established quality assurance and enhancement procedures in institutions to enable the tutors and other supporters to make sure that that material meets their needs. There are appeals mechanisms and feedback mechanisms through the students union and through course committees and other things within institutions to make sure that any concerns or incomplete work are addressed. Failing those institutional mechanisms, there is a UK-wide system through the Office of the Independent Adjudicator for students to take forward any concerns that they have. So, we're confident that that system will be robust and will make sure that the students are getting a course of learning that meets their needs. But thinking just a little bit more broadly about the mental health and well-being of staff and learners across a range of educational settings, or, indeed, young people who can't access educational settings, what considerations are you giving to how that mental health and well-being might be supported through what is an incredibly difficult time for everyone? kirsty williams am: Yes, that is correct. So, our expectation would be that during a prolonged period of closure—which I think, if we're honest, we have to acknowledge is what we're looking at—we would expect school staff—well-being staff, for instance in school—to be doing check-ins—phone check-ins, potentially, or FaceTime check-ins, with students, just to keep in touch with them as we go forward. We'll be looking to promote amongst young people a range of online facilities that are available—so, for instance, Meic website—so, looking to use a variety of platforms. I'm concerned, of course, that for some children their access to their counsellor is via their school. We know that, and we're just double checking the capacity of online counselling that already exists—online counselling tools that children already use because they don't want to go to the counsellor in the school and be seen in the school corridor going to the counsellor. They're already using those online methods and we expect to be able to continue, as far as possible, those kinds of mechanisms where children can have their mental health needs and their questions answered, and their worries. One of the reasons, again, that we wanted to keep schools going as long as possible—and teachers have been working so hard to do that—is because that routine of going into school and that normality is one that we've needed and wanted to maintain. Children will have worries about their own health; they'll have worries about the health of their parents and their grandparents; they will be consuming potentially media and news stories that have empty supermarket shelves. So, we need to understand, and I think we will also have to recognise, that this support will have to be ongoing once we're back to normal, and we will have to continue to look to support children in the longer term who will have lived through this experience. They are incredibly resilient, and they have been the champions of some of our public health messages. They are so much better and so much more compliant on the whole 'washing your hands' and things like that than even adults have been. So, they are incredibly resilient, but we also have to recognise that it can be a really worrying time for them. helen mary jones am: Can I just—? Just a supplementary to that—you've mentioned already, Kirsty, the importance of youth services, and, particularly thinking voluntarily youth services, you've given the commitment, when were talking about Mudiad Ysgolion Meithrin earlier, that services that are part-funded by grants through the Welsh Government, for example, thinking of the national youth voluntary service—will those be able to be maintained even if settings have had to be shut as well? Obviously, local authorities will have to make their own decisions about whether youth settings are kept open, but, in terms of the direct support from Welsh Government, can organisations that receive it rely on that through this time? kirsty williams am: No formal decision has been made, but if people are in receipt of a Government grant from my department to run a service and that service can no longer run because of the public— helen mary jones am: Because it's not safe. kirsty williams am: —because it's not safe to do so, I do not foresee that we will be turning around and saying, 'We'll have our money back, thank you very much.' lynne neagle am: Okay, thank you. The normal rules of engagement have to change and, those organisations, we'll need them to be providing youth services for children when we are back to normal, and we wouldn't want to do anything that would undermine their ability to do that. When we're trying to maintain services for vulnerable children and for front-line staff children, they have a valuable role to play and I know that local government and the Council for Wales of Voluntary Youth Services are already in discussion about how youth services—. Those traditional youth clubs, because of austerity, are not necessarily there anymore, so they are well used to being out and about and doing outreach work, and they will have an important part to play in the services that we talked about earlier. Hefin, briefly, and then we're going to take one final question from Suzy on emergency legislation. I'll declare an interest as a parent of a child with additional learning needs, although the question I'm about to ask doesn't reflect her interests. Additional learning needs pupils who are waiting outcomes of referrals—if they're currently waiting an outcome of a referral, will that process will be suspended or will it continue as normal? And, if it is suspended, will it pick up where it left off from this point? kirsty williams am: I think we have to recognise that the ability to deliver business as usual has been massively compromised. I'm sure people will try and continue to do their normal activities and their normal jobs, but that might not be possible. I don't want to give you any false assurance if, actually, the intelligence on the ground is that that simply will not be able to happen. But we don't— hefin david am: Can we have a clear line on that? kirsty williams am: We don't want to jeopardise anybody, but as I said, some of the normal services are simply not available as everybody turns their attention to trying to respond to the pandemic. Final question—because I know that the Minister's got a lot of things that she needs to get on with—from Suzy on emergency legislation. suzy davies am: I'm not going to ask you if you'll use any powers you get under the emergency legislation, but are you able to give us some indication of what they might be? kirsty williams am: Sure. For instance, the Bill will provide Welsh Ministers with powers to temporarily close schools or other educational institutions, childcare premises; powers to give temporary continuity direction—so, actually, the other way around, force things to be open—and to be able to direct resources. So, that includes, as I said, I could direct something to stay open if that institution was trying to close down. The powers also give flexibility to maybe be able to direct staff to other institutions that they would not normally work in, if that was part of our resilience needs. We'd also be looking at, for instance, relaxing requirements around ratios in childcare settings, or we might be wanting to do things around food. If there is a continuing role for schools in providing food, we might have to be a bit more flexible about what that might look like. So, those kinds of flexibilities—to be able to suspend things, direct things—that we would not normally have in normal circumstances. And just to finish this one off—you may not be able to answer this one, in all fairness—in those situations where it's the Government who says 'no' to various things, does that then help people in the situation of Dawn's nursery, and insurance claims suddenly become more likely? kirsty williams am: I'm not an expert on insurance, and I don't know if anybody here can help me. But what my understanding is, is that even where Government has given a direction that does not necessarily mean that you will be covered by your insurance. What we're finding in the private sector is that insurance companies are not paying out, because even when a Government has directed it, they do not regard this as a disruption to business. kirsty williams am: It's not my area of expertise, but from what I understand from discussions around the Cabinet table, this is particularly problematic. Let me give you an example about how we've been trying to overcome some of this—it feels like an awfully long time ago now— you'll be aware that we gave directions earlier around cancellation of school trips abroad. Trying to make sure that that direction came from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, rather than the Department for Education was a real battle, because again there were fears that, unless that advice came from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, insurance would not kick in, and that was a two-day discussion. kirsty williams am: So, these are the kinds of things that we're grappling with. But, as I said, thinking about it, that was only last week, but it feels like an aeon ago. suzy davies am: I'm not holding you to that, but it helps us manage the questions we get asked. kirsty williams am: Yes, but as I said, insurance is not my area of expertise. Can I thank you for attending this morning, and your officials? We do recognise what an incredibly challenging time this is, and we'd like to place on record our thanks to all of you for the work that you're doing to try and see us through this crisis. Item 3, then, is a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting<doc-sep>I'm very pleased to welcome Meilyr Rowlands, Her Majesty's Chief Inspector, Estyn; Jassa Scott, strategic director at Estyn; and Claire Morgan, strategic director at Estyn. Thank you for the papers upfront, in which you say that the most striking feature of the education system, looking forward, of course is the curriculum and the change that that's bringing. How can we be sure that, during this period of change, standards don't slip? And also, from the point of view of scrutiny, will we be back in a situation where we're being told, 'You can't compare one set of results against the previous year's results, because of the nature of the change'? meilyr rowlands: Bore da, bawb. I think any kind of major educational reform has got risks attached to it, particularly if those changes were made too quickly. I think this process of reform has been going on in the background for a few years now, so I think there is a track record of standards and provision not slipping. So, overall, I think we can be fairly confident that standards won't slip during this period of preparation. suzy davies am: Can I just ask: is that based on your evidence around primary schools, where the sort of ethos that we've seen in the curriculum has been already articulated through the foundation phase? meilyr rowlands: The track record I'm talking about is across the board, so it's very difficult to think of anything that's actually got worse over the last three or four years, so it's difficult to say that standards of provision is slipping. It might not be improving as quickly as we would like, but the purpose of major curriculum and, more generally, educational reform is to make sure that we do get a more substantial sort of improvement. A large number of schools and teachers and leaders have been part of preparing the new curriculum and all the associated work, as well as doing the day job. I think their commitment and their engagement with curriculum reform, and engagement with wider education reform, is to be congratulated. So, I think going forward, we must make sure that that is continued; that this process that's called co-construction—engaging with the profession, making sure that they're behind all the changes—continues. I think that's what's going to make sure that we don't see any slippage. suzy davies am: Okay, and on that point of comparing year on year, we will be able to make those comparisons legitimately then? meilyr rowlands: Yes, certainly, in terms of our inspection outcomes and our inspection work, yes. Can I just ask you then about the difference in preparedness between primary and secondary schools, which I've just mentioned previously, and also what your views are on the impact of funding for schools on that as well? Because we're in a situation where a number of primary schools have got surplus funds, sometimes that's because of end of year additional funds just being magicked up, but there is a serious worry that so many secondary schools are in deficit and that, overall, secondary schools are in deficit. Is there a correlation between those two positions, that secondary schools may be less ready for this than primary schools? meilyr rowlands: I think it's probably true to say that secondary schools have a greater challenge than primary schools generally in terms of preparedness for the new curriculum. With any sort of education reform, you've got that danger of people wanting to see change as soon as possible on the one hand, and on the other hand you need time to pilot things, to make sure that people have the right professional learning and make sure that there's opportunity for evaluation and thinking and so forth. suzy davies am: Sorry, that could be difficult to do if a school doesn't have money to create that space, couldn't it? meilyr rowlands: Yes. One, about the difference between primary and secondary: I think what I'm saying there is I think the fact that the new curriculum is going to be brought in for all the years in primary, but it's going to be phased in year by year for secondary is a recognition of that difference. In terms of funding, probably everyone in this room, and certainly me included, would like to see more money for the education system—any educationalist would like to see that. But, you know, that is a decision for local and central Government to decide how much they can afford. suzy davies am: Can I ask, just to keep it on track, are you finding that that's having an impact on secondary schools particularly—their ability to make space to get their heads around the curriculum? meilyr rowlands: I don't think you can make that straightforward correlation. But if you do look at surpluses and reserves, they have been more or less constant for primary schools over a long period of time, but they have declined for secondary schools. So, I think there probably is an argument for saying that we need to look at the funding of secondary schools in particular because, overall, they're in deficit now. The other thing that's worth saying about funding is that even a small decrease in real terms can be disproportionately time consuming to manage. So, you know, if you have a large school and you have to maybe make one member of staff redundant, it can have a real big effect on the morale in the school. But also the time it takes for the headteacher and the senior staff to make those decisions can take their eye off the educational ball because they're looking at these financial and staffing issues. The final question from me is: there's a general concern about the number of teachers that we have in the system at the moment, particularly at secondary level and in particular subjects as well. How do you think we can improve that? What impact is it likely to have on the ability of secondary schools to really get a grip on this? meilyr rowlands: Obviously, the most important resource for the education system is the teachers. So, it is a concern that recruitment is getting more and more difficult and that targets for initial teacher training are not being hit. And we're not seeing them hit, if I remember correctly, even in primary, let alone secondary. So, there is a challenge, and I think we've got to look at this in the round. We've got to make sure that we have both a long-term strategy and a shorter term strategy for this. So, long term, we've got to make sure that education is an attractive option for young people and more mature people to want to go into. I think there's a general acceptance now that that needs to be higher up on the agenda, that people need to take that seriously, and there's work going on regarding the workload issue. suzy davies am: I suppose what I'm coming to, and I will finish with this, Chair, is, we're asking our existing workforce to undertake a fair bit of continuous professional development—let's call it that—in order to get ready for this curriculum when they've barely got time for lunch as it is. Do you think that's going to have an impact on the ability of secondary schools to get to grips with this, albeit that there'll be a phasing in? meilyr rowlands: Yes. I think the new curriculum, one of the things about the new curriculum is that it re-professionalises the profession. And one of the reasons why teaching maybe hasn't been that attractive a profession is that teachers in the past have just been delivering a set curriculum, and now they've got a much more creative part in deciding for themselves how to teach something and what to teach. I think we need to have a much more varied set of routes into teaching, so I welcome some of the part-time Open University courses, for example. So, there are lots of ways—we were talking about maybe converting people from primary into secondary, particularly in Welsh-medium, where there's a shortage. Just before going on to that, just to pick up on that last point that you made about the shortage of teachers and losing teachers during the first year of their training. Has Estyn done any themed work on that particular issue, or do you intend to do anything on that? Also, looking at the financial incentives and how they compare with the situation in England, for example; do we need, perhaps, to think about financial incentives, not just for specific subjects, but for going to schools where there are particular issues, perhaps? meilyr rowlands: Well, yes, there are currently discussions ongoing between us and the Government about working in those early years for teachers. I know that Professor Mick Waters is looking at this currently, and we've had the discussion with him. Now, we are, of course, looking at initial teacher training, but we haven't looked at the first couple of years for many a year. And for your information, I've commissioned a piece of work on that particular issue, and that work will be published in due course. sian gwenllian am: In terms of the secondary schools, that’s where the problem lies, isn’t it, rather than the primary sector. How much of a concern is it to you that children’s chances of going to a secondary school that is good or better appear to be 50:50, and that, indeed, over 10 per cent of secondary schools are judged to be failing and 12 per cent are under Estyn review? How much of a concern is that to you? meilyr rowlands: Well, it is of concern to us, of course. I hope that we will have an opportunity to talk about the positive aspects of the education system in Wales, because there are a number of good things we can report also. The primary sector, the special sector, post-16—there are many sectors that are doing well, and I think a story that's particularly positive this year is that we have seen pupil referral units improving. We have seen examples of excellent practice in that sector for the first time in many a year, and we've also seen excellent practice in independent special schools, which is also a sector—. But, you're right, of course, the biggest concern for the system, I would say, is secondary schools, and that is an issue of leadership, and also of the quality of the teaching and learning. So, I believe that there is a need to find a long-term solution, as I mentioned previously, and also a short-term solution to this problem. In the long term, to improve the quality of teaching and learning—well, that’s the main aim of the new curriculum. It will take time, as we mentioned previously; it will take longer in secondary schools, and that's for a number of reasons, and I have discussed the challenges that are additional for secondary schools in previous annual reports. It’s more difficult to engage with the parents of older children than younger children, and that’s an important factor. That’s one of the reasons why I believe it’s important that we do have community schools that ensure that the parents are part of the school’s life and take an interest in the education of their children. We also know that qualifications take a very prominent role in secondary schools’ mindsets, and, in some cases, perhaps excessively so. So, we need to ensure that those qualifications are reformed as a result of the reform of the curriculum, and, of course, Qualifications Wales is carrying out that work currently. In primary schools, for example, the greatest and most obvious difference, I would say, is that you’ve got one teacher who looks after a child for a whole year, and that teacher can identify the needs of the pupil very well over a period of time, getting to know the child and, possibly, the family very well. It’s much more complicated for secondary school to do that; there have to be systems put in place for that. But in the short term, what is important is that those schools that cause concern receive much more support, and that is why I am glad and do welcome what's being piloted currently, which is a system of supporting these schools, the multi-agency approach, that is. So, that is something that we have been calling for for quite a long period of time and piloted ourselves a few years ago. sian gwenllian am: You said previously that it's a cause of concern for you that these schools that are failing or underachieving are not identified early enough. Are there signs that that's improving? meilyr rowlands: Well, one of the things that's very positive about this pilot scheme is that it's not just the schools that are officially causing concern that are a part of the pilot scheme, that is, the schools that we have identified, through inspections, as needing to be put in a statutory category. So, there are schools involved in the pilot scheme that the authorities and the consortia have identified themselves as schools that are at risk of causing concern. I believe that it's fair to say that we have not reached a point yet where we have a system of agreed criteria in relation to identifying these schools yet. I think that there has been initial work that has been commissioned or that is about to arrive in relation to that, and the types of measures you would expect us to take account of would be dissatisfaction from parents, staff leaving, a change in leadership. We use surveys with the children, for instance, and that gives you quite a good idea of whether a school is possibly facing difficulties. So, there's not one single criteria alone that will tell you, 'This is a school that is at risk of causing concern', but taken together, having a set of criteria that everyone has agreed would be a good way of monitoring schools, I believe. Well, we'll be coming on to that middle tier later on, and perhaps that's where the problem lies, namely that if there isn't an agreed system from consortia and yourselves, perhaps that's where the focus needs to be. meilyr rowlands: I would say that it's not the identification of the schools that is the greatest problem. The greatest problem is ensuring that there is support for them and that the support is multi-agency support, where all the agencies that support these schools are working together. sian gwenllian am: Well, how long does it take, therefore, for a school to move from an improvement category, in terms of special measures, to be escalated then? Because one sees sometimes that there's an excellent school, and within five years' time, it's in the red. meilyr rowlands: Well, that would be something quite unusual—to move from excellent to red. claire morgan: On average, secondary schools that are in need of special measures take just over two years, on average. With primary schools, of course, it's much shorter because the issues are far less complex; it's easier to bring about improvements in teaching. When you've got large numbers of staff, you've got large secondary schools, it takes time to actually bring about those improvements, but it is a long time, just over two years, when you think that some pupils, maybe in key stage 4 for the two years—. Certainly, we want to see schools coming out of category much quicker, and this is where the multi-agency approach certainly is a positive step. They focus on bringing about improvement in the areas of the school that are weakest, and it is the responsibility of everybody involved—that is: ourselves, the regions, local authorities, the schools themselves and their governing bodies—to look at how they can best support the school to bring about that improvement. So, it's getting an agreement on what the issues are, and then planning the support so that we avoid duplication, but that we support the school in the areas they need more support. But, as Meilyr already said, there are some schools involved in that particular pilot that are at danger of causing serious concern. And just finally from me, for the time being at least, the financial situation; we've spoken about that already this morning. If funding was injected into the system tomorrow, say, what would you spend it on? What aspects would benefit from that additional funding? meilyr rowlands: Were you asking about something specific there? sian gwenllian am: In the schools themselves, if you were a school leader, what would you— meilyr rowlands: Oh, if I were a school leader. How would you use any additional funding that would flow into the school? meilyr rowlands: It's difficult to make that decision, because every school is different. It is important, of course, that leaders do have the power and the ability to make those decisions themselves. But, certainly, in the short term, the type of thing I would have thought would be to prepare for the new curriculum. The schools that have been a part of developing the curriculum have been in a fortunate position in that they've had plenty of time to think about this. So, it's now time—and this was the chief message of my annual report this year—for every school in Wales to start to think. Because I think that the new curriculum is truly an opportunity to take a forward step in terms of how we teach and learn within schools. But that means that time is needed for schools to think this through and, in that thinking, to contact the community, to talk to their children as well, to see what the community in its broader sense would like to see being in the new curriculum, because it's up to every school. Although the new curriculum sets a framework, it is up to each and every school to decide what they're going to teach, and what they're teaching in order to prepare their young people for this new world that we have in the twenty-first century. Therefore, to give you a somewhat superficial answer, I would be setting time aside for the training of teachers. jassa scott: Can I just add one thing there? I think what we've seen over the years recently is that local authorities, to some extent, have safeguarded the funding that goes to the schools, but the effect of that is that we've seen less funding going into some of the local authority services; for example, those services that support well-being, that promote attendance, and that perhaps support behaviour and assistance for schools. So, I think that all of those factors contribute to how schools can support and assist their pupils, and to improve themselves. So, I think that side of things is important as well—in the school or in the local authority, if funding is available, it should be allocated to all of those things so that those services can also support the children to succeed. lynne neagle am: Just before we move on to the middle tier, if I can just ask about the quality of teaching? There's been a consistent message from Estyn that that is the weakest part of the system in Wales. The Government recognises that and has invested a very significant amount of money in that area, yet it's still an issue again in your annual report. What is your assessment of whether we are seeing the improvements we need to see in the quality of teaching? meilyr rowlands: I think, in nearly all the elements of our framework, the picture is fairly similar. So, in terms of quality of teaching, we have seen gradual but quite small-scale improvements in primary. In secondary, it's more or less level; we haven't seen it getting particularly better or particularly worse. One of the things that's really important to realise is that the curriculum is about the quality of teaching. It is about the teaching and learning; those are two sides of the same coin, if you like. From the perspective of the pupil, it's the learning; from the perspective of the teacher, it's the teaching. I think there's no doubt and I think there's general agreement that, in order to have a step change in the quality of teaching and learning—. I think it was Einstein who said that if you keep on doing the same thing, you'll get the same result. So, you're going to have to change something, and what's changing is the curriculum. And that's exactly what all schools need to do now: to think how does this new curriculum affect them in their particular school, in their particular circumstances, in the context of their particular children. How can they use this opportunity now to improve the teaching and learning in their school? lynne neagle am: Siân. sian gwenllian am: It does cause one concern, because if the teaching and learning standards just stay the same in the secondary sector, and we know that 12 per cent of secondary schools are under Estyn review and 11 per cent of them are in special measures, we're talking about half of the schools almost, and no improvement in the teaching quality in general. So, there is a major cohort of children captured in that situation, and then there's a new curriculum that comes in. I see the opportunities, but these schools that are doing well are going to go, 'Wow, up there', but schools are there in the bottom layer and one is genuinely concerned about those children in those schools. Isn't that where the focus should be and any additional funding that's allocated? You talked about releasing teachers for training, but perhaps it's in those particular schools that we need to focus. meilyr rowlands: I do agree that the best schools will welcome the opportunities and that their standards will improve even more. But then, with regard to the other schools, in a way, there are two very broad categories, which are those that need only a little support just to help them to improve—. And I believe that the new curriculum and the general support that's going to be surrounding that will be the solution for those schools. But you're right to say that there is another smaller cohort that has a much greater need for support, and they're going to find coping with the new curriculum difficult, because they'll also have many other problems. And you're not talking about a huge number of schools—some 200 secondary schools is what we have in Wales, so that percentage is relatively small, the number is relatively small—but they need much greater support. I don't think it's enormous, but certainly there's a certain amount of funding that is needed to offer those schools that support. The Minister recently told the committee that a number of recent Estyn inspections of local authorities' education services have been disappointing. Do you agree? That, of course, is based on the inspections carried out under the current cycle. But of those nine we've put three into category—we've identified them as causing concern—and they're Pembrokeshire, Powys and Wrexham. So, we've talking quite a bit about secondary schools this morning, and I think that, again, is a factor in those local authorities. You say that the proportion of secondary schools causing concern is a challenge for several local authorities and for the system as a whole. Which local authorities are these—you've probably named them all—and have these been inspected yet under the current cycle? meilyr rowlands: I think you're taking about three secondary schools in a category in Pembrokeshire, Wrexham and Torfaen. So, we've inspected Pembrokeshire and Wrexham already, but we haven't inspected Torfaen yet. And we've inspected Powys and Newport, but we haven't inspected Gwynedd yet. So, in answer to your question: we've inspected most of those, but not all of them. What is your latest assessment of how well the regional consortia are supporting and driving school improvement? Does this vary across the different regions? meilyr rowlands: It certainly does vary, but I'll ask Jassa to go into more detail. jassa scott: We haven't directly inspected the regional consortia since—I think 2017 was the last time we did some direct monitoring with them. But I think, over the last three years, we do feel that they've improved their knowledge. So, they did take a little while to embed, and I think that came across when we did the work that we did with them back in 2017. But, more recently, they've improved their knowledge of individual schools' strengths and areas for improvement, and they are using this knowledge better to support and challenge schools, and particularly schools causing concern. But obviously, as we've been talking about this morning, there's still work to do. I think they've prioritised well the work that schools are doing around literacy and numeracy, but their support for schools to develop digital competence has been a bit weaker. Even though we've had the framework as an early part of the curriculum developments there, we haven't seen quite the focus that we've seen on other areas. I think for schools causing concern, what we found—and we do look at their work through our local authority inspection, so we are getting some first-hand evidence of their impact through that—they're not always focused, in those schools causing concern, on improving teaching and learning, so actually getting in and looking and working with teachers and with staff to actually make improvements there. I think, generally, their support for secondary schools has had less impact across the consortia than it has for primary schools, and I think sometimes that's because they're struggling to recruit appropriate specialists, to support with secondary, or perhaps they don't have the depth of strong practice that we talked about earlier within their region. So, they're having to work a bit harder to find effective practice, to share practice and to get the secondary expertise and knowledge to support those schools. We will be, over the next year, looking specifically at the work of consortia to support curriculum reform work. But that's one of the areas we've discussed, about doing some specific work on over the next year to look in a bit more depth. janet finch-saunders am: So, what is the cycle of inspections for regional consortia, and how robust are those inspections? What areas do you cover? jassa scott: Well, regional consortia aren't actually statutory entities at the moment, and we don't have specific inspection powers relating to regional consortia. So, on each of our local authority inspections, there will be, usually, an area that we're looking at that relates to school improvement, and that would involve us looking at the work of the consortia that the local authority has commissioned. What we've agreed with Welsh Government is that, over the next few years, we will take a thematic approach. So, the first area that we've said is that we'll look specifically at how each of them is supporting curriculum reform, and report on that. So, that will report specifically on the different ones, but it wouldn't be the same as doing an inspection of their work at this time. janet finch-saunders am: Should they be on a statutory footing? jassa scott: Well, I think that's something to be discussed over the next few years. There's, obviously, local government legislation that has been debated recently, which has the potential to create corporate joint committees, and school improvement was one of the areas that is being considered there. So, there may be an opportunity, if that's created, to think how we then adapt inspection to look specifically at that. I think we do get a handle on their work through the local authority and, ultimately, it's looking at what that consortia brings to that local authority and to the schools and the pupils in that area that's the important bit, I think, ultimately, to see the impact there. So, we are looking at them in that way, and then taking that thematic approach, but we'll keep reviewing it over the next couple of years. And what are Estyn's views on the latest position regarding regional working in south-west and mid Wales? Would it be preferable for school improvement advisers to be based in the consortium, Education through Regional Work, rather than each local authority employing their own, as is the case at present? meilyr rowlands: If I can just go back to the last question as well, what we did in order to inspect regions was we paused our local authority inspection cycle back in 2014, I think, for about three years. So, then, we spent time looking at regions, basically, because we didn't have the resource to do both at the same time. So, we're in negotiation with Welsh Government currently, so that, going forward, we can look at local authorities and regions at the same time. If regions become statutory entities, that would be in legislation, and then you could have legislation that gives us directly the powers to inspect them, which we don't currently have. But, as Jassa said, currently, what we intend to do in the short is to do some thematic work on that. In terms of ERW, they were the region that, at the end of the last cycle of regional inspections, we were still monitoring. So, for example, the chair of the joint committee has resigned, the managing director remains a temporary appointment and there are no clear plans for a permanent leadership. Some of the leadership team have left—the capacity has gone down—and various staff that were appointed last summer have already left. The budget has not been agreed and certain key meetings—executive board and joint committee meetings—have been cancelled. So, we are particularly worried about ERW, and, because of that, we will be going in to visit them in April—next month—and we'll be visiting all of the authorities to make sure that they do have a plan for an appropriate school improvement service going forward. jassa scott: Yes, I think you asked a specific question about, you know, which is better. I think our view has been that, generally, the local authorities are too small to deliver that whole range of school improvement services, particularly given the national reform agenda at the moment. We felt last summer, when we went to ERW, that they'd managed to reach the best possible model, given the constraint they've placed, collectively, on themselves—that they want to deliver aspects of school improvement locally, through the local authorities, and have some central capacity. So, we felt that, given that they wanted to do some locally and some centrally, enough thought had been put into that structure last summer and that it could be workable. There were key aspects such as support for secondary schools causing concern and there was some capacity centrally that could support areas such as Powys. Unfortunately, as Meilyr has described, some of those aspects have since been disbanded or those staff who were on secondment have gone back, so I think it is a key risk, particularly for some of those authorities you've talked about that are causing concern, such as Powys or Pembrokeshire—that they haven't necessarily got that local capacity to support their schools causing concern. So, you've got some concerns within school capacity and you've got concerns about local authority capacity, and what you don't have there now is that collective capacity centrally that might support them. So, that's why we're going to go and do a slightly more detailed link visit to try to understand how they are mitigating the risks that we see are arising as a result of some of those things that have happened recently. Our understanding is that there's a joint committee meeting of ERW on 19 March, so, hopefully, after that point, we'll have a little bit more information about how they're planning to manage that collective set of services going forward—it's a little bit of an unknown at the moment. meilyr rowlands: You were asking, 'Would it be better for every authority to have their own team?' But, before regions were invented, if you like, we were saying consistently that they tended to be too small. So, you had Cynnal in the north west, you had the Education and School Improvement Service, you had Gwent—so, they naturally did come together in groups, maybe a little bit smaller than the current regions, but they, of their own accord, produced something not very dissimilar to a region. lynne neagle am: Siân, did you have a supplementary? sian gwenllian am: Yes, just on ERW. Does the fact that there is a dispute on the highest level feed down to the school and to the children? Are the children in south-west and mid Wales affected by this? Are standards decreasing in that part of Wales? meilyr rowlands: Well, it's difficult to say directly, but we have inspected nine authorities and two of those are in that area, so, the lack of support at that level, as Jassa was saying, may be the reason why those authorities are suffering difficulties. jassa scott: And it is clear that many people across that area are expending energy and time discussing these issues. Any reorganisation does take energy out of the system, so it is clear that that time isn't then being spent, perhaps, on investment in improving schools and supporting staff in schools. So, as Meilyr says, it's not clear, but a lot of energy is being expended in that particular discussion that is ongoing. janet finch-saunders am: What disadvantages could there be from Neath Port Talbot's intention to withdraw from regional working via ERW? And I've got to be honest, up in the north, I know that there are concerns about regional consortia, and when local authorities are under pressure financially, it questions, sometimes, the value of regional consortia. So, what disadvantages could there be from Neath Port Talbot's intention to withdraw from regional working via ERW? meilyr rowlands: I think we've talked in general terms and we feel that local authorities probably are too small on their own. In general terms, you can't say that any particular authority couldn't, maybe, put things together in such a way that it's effective. Also, it has a knock-on effect on the rest of the consortium, if one withdraws. I don't know whether, Jassa, you've got anything to add to the general points we've made. jassa scott: I think, what you've alluded to there, it has the potential to be a destabilising factor across the whole of the national model that we've got for supporting school improvement at a time where Welsh Government are kind of relying heavily on that consortium model to help support curriculum reform and to drive professional learning and be the conduit for lots of the aspects of reform that we've talked about. So, I think that potential risk of any destabilising across the system is a disadvantage generally. And I think it's just what I've already talked about in terms of being a distraction at a crucial time for support where schools need to feel that they're confident in where they need to go for support. I should say that we're planning, as part of that visit that we do in April, to survey schools in that region about the support that they're getting, be that from their authority or from the central teams in ERW. That's something we did at the time when we did the inspections previously, and we thought it would be helpful to get some first-hand views of any disadvantages or impact that they might be feeling, really. And then, finally, for me:what involvement has Estyn had with the strategic education delivery group chaired by Professor Dylan Jones and what are your expectations for how it will improve the work of the middle tier? meilyr rowlands: We've been members of that group right from the beginning. I personally am on it and colleagues are on it as well, and I'm a member of the sub-group that does some of the background work for that group as well, and Estyn has given several presentations to that group. The rather obvious thing is that you get all the strategic educational organisations together in one room, but it had never been done before, as far as I know. I'm a very firm believer in making those relationships, building those relationships, so that people understand what each of us contributes to the whole of the education system. We need to have that forum to be able to make sure that we're clear about what each of our roles is. In your report you talked about in early settings where skills development is less effective, that children begin to feel at a very early age that they can't do certain things. I don't know whether that is anecdotal evidence or is that specific outcome-based evidence—whatever, it's quite worrying. But what do you think the long-term effect on a child's development has in that respect? claire morgan: It's probably worth saying that skill development is a strength in about three quarters of our schools—primary schools and early years settings. But in a minority of schools and settings, as you've picked up, children are often introduced to things too early. So, they're introduced to phonics, they're introduced to learning to read, when they're not at that developmental stage. And really, long term, it means the children lose confidence, because if they're introduced to these things too early they don't succeed, they tend to need additional support, and it can give them a negative impression, it can give them negative thoughts about their ability. So, we need to address that, and really it's about— dawn bowden am: Sorry, what sort of age range are we talking about here? claire morgan: These would be children from three to five. dawn bowden am: And is there something, then, in that—and I don't think there's much we can do about that, but it may be in terms of the way that the schools or the early learning settings address this—you will have children at a very young age that have almost a year's difference in their age group, so they're born just before 1 September or just after 1 September? So, that's a huge gap, isn't it, at that point in their development? claire morgan: Yes. dawn bowden am: Is that not being addressed in a way that those children are being taught and approached at that age? claire morgan: Yes. In terms of reading and literacy skills, we still remain quite low in the Programme for International Student Assessment ratings for reading, and I know there is a particular concern about the impact on boys in that regard. What do you think are the most pressing priorities that face them around reading and literacy? meilyr rowlands: I think literacy has been, and still is, and still needs to be a top priority. , literacy clearly is something that underpins the rest of education, so it really does need to be a top priority. For example, we've given a lot of attention to writing over the years, and making sure that children get the opportunity to write in an extended way, not just short sentences, but having the opportunity to have extended writing, and there's some evidence that that now is beginning to have an effect. So, it's not just reading small little snippets—we need to encourage children to have a love for reading and read whole books. So, I gave a little bit of attention to that in the annual report—that that needs attention. I think the other thing I would emphasise is that this is not just for the foundation phase, it's not just for very young children—it's really important at key stage 2 and in secondary school. One of the things we have been worried about, and I think there was some reflection of this in PISA, is that there are strengths in reading in Wales. So, PISA, for example, said that children in Wales are very good at comparing lots of little snippets, but what they're saying, and they're saying this themselves, is that the love of books is decreasing, and the number of children who read regularly whole books. So, I think there is something there for teachers to set and model a good example, to show their own interest in reading, to encourage children to read themselves. dawn bowden am: It's probably a wider societal problem as well, isn't it? I'm thinking about gaming, electronic gaming, computers. I think there is some sort of link with the digital world, and the way people read—the actual technique of reading, is evolving. But I think reading is so important, and developing a complex vocabulary is so important in being able to communicate, in order to get a good job, to have enjoyment out of life—all of those things are so important. We ourselves are going to give this quite a lot of priority in future, so we're doing a major piece of work on language acquisition, which will cover some of this next year. Every year one of our thematics is the major bit of work we do, and we try to support that with a conference. So, that will be the focus that we give to our work next year—it is on language acquisition. Just one other supplementary on that, I guess, is whether you have a good idea of how many young people are coming out of school at 16—so, those that are not staying on to do A-levels—and are coming out with an inability to read or white. Do we know what the figure is for that? meilyr rowlands: I can't tell you that off the top of my head, but I'm sure that there will be evidence. jassa scott: There has been a shift in that there's been continued emphasis in post-16 education and training around literacy and picking that up. In apprenticeships they'll use essential skills and so on to try and get that basic level of literacy as well, so there is an emphasis. I think one of the worrying indications, maybe, that post-16 sectors find is that sometimes even when learners are coming out with a basic qualification in a GCSE, potentially in English or a literature subject, they don't necessarily have a really good foundation of some of the basic skills as well. Could I just move you on—? Sorry— meilyr rowlands: The only thing I would add to that is, I guess, it's quite small, the number of people who don't have basic reading. I think one of the things we need to emphasise is that learning reading is something you do throughout your life, and what we need to do is to develop, in particular, pupils' higher level reading skills. The fact that they can just read isn't the end of the story; they need to be developing those higher level reading skills and continuing to widen the range of things they read, and be able to develop their vocabulary at a higher level. meilyr rowlands: Absolutely, yes—those higher level skills of comprehension and inference and those sorts of things. Can I just move you on, then, to numeracy and whether you can tell us if you're satisfied with the progress in numeracy, because I think we were doing better on the PISA results in maths in Wales than we did previously? So, what are your thoughts on that? meilyr rowlands: I think there is a fairly clear good news story here. PISA shows improvements and a lot of that can be attributed, I think, to the new GCSE mathematics numeracy. I think there's much less predictability in that work; you can't approach it in a formulaic way, either the pupils or the teachers in terms of teaching it. It's about applying what you've learnt in the core mathematics lessons to new situations in subjects across the curriculum. I think that that GCSE numeracy has built on the work that's been done lower down on the national numeracy framework, which has the same philosophy of applying that mathematics knowledge in a problem-solving situation. My final question, Chair, is: in your view, to what extent is Wales on track to meet the target of 500 points in each of the domains in the 2020-1 cycle for PISA? meilyr rowlands: I think that that target is somewhat arbitrary, but assuming that we continue on this journey that we are on—the current change programme of the new curriculum and so forth—I think we would expect to see those improvements we've seen in science and in mathematics to continue. The only other thing I would add is that there is some research that indicates or suggests that the effect of schools is greater on mathematics and science than on reading, and the reason for that is you don't do a lot mathematics or science in the home. But the attitude towards reading is very much dependent on family and community factors, more so, maybe, than mathematics and science. So, I think that's another reason why I think a community-school approach is really important. You need to get everybody on board; it's not just what the teacher does in the classroom—it's important that the whole family and the community thinks that reading is important. dawn bowden am: Just on numeracy, it was interesting because one of the schools in my constituency have actually contacted my office and a number of other organisations across the constituency to ask us how we use maths in our work. So, they're obviously trying to relate that now to everyday life and working, which I thought was quite good. lynne neagle am: We've got some questions now around progress of specific groups of pupils. If I can start and ask you how concerning is it that the gap between pupils eligible for free school meals and other pupils has not narrowed in the last 10 years, especially given the £475 million pupil deprivation grant investment. I think secondary schools and the issue of poverty were the two things I've noted in the annual report. I think it is worth also remembering that compared to other countries, for example, in PISA, we do compare quite well in terms of equity. There's also an argument that maybe poverty and austerity have increased, so that we're in a way running to keep still. So, there are a lot of caveats to be made around the fact that that poverty gap hasn't closed, but that's not to say that schools can't do something about it, and I've suggested in the annual report a sort of a two-pronged approach. I think there is evidence in the international research that teaching and learning, better teaching and learning, helps disadvantaged poor pupils disproportionately. So, I think improving teaching and learning, and we discussed that earlier this morning about how the new curriculum is really all about improving the quality of teaching and learning in the classroom. So, that's one approach, and then the other approach, which I've also mentioned earlier, is having a community-focused approach to schools. It's very difficult for children to do well in school if they've got all kinds of things happening in their background. So, it's important that schools can maybe signpost those families to other services that can support them and help them. It's challenging for schools to go down this route, and I think the more help we can give schools to take that approach, the better. They have better engagement from parents, from the families, and that then reflects back on the work of the children. jassa scott: And we've just published a collection of good practice about how schools support vulnerable learners, and we'll be teasing out the aspects around community-focused schools a lot more in a report that we'll publish in the next couple of months. So, we've kind of drilled down and looked at what some schools are doing in that area in a bit more detail. Obviously, I think we've all been to schools where the PDG is actually used to engage parents more for exactly the reasons you say. But I just wanted to interrogate the deprivation gap a little bit, because, of course, even though, as you say, there's perhaps more equity in Wales, one of the reasons for that is because our children from better-off backgrounds do less well, and considerably less well than their peers in the other parts of the United Kingdom. So, whereas their attainment gaps are pretty dreadful, that's one of the reasons—that our better-off children aren't doing as well as perhaps they might do. Is that a concern as well? We don't want this rush to the middle, do we? meilyr rowlands: I think it's essential that all groups of pupils do as well as they possibly can, absolutely. So, it's not quite the same issue, but we've talked about the importance of making sure that more able and talented children do well. meilyr rowlands: They're not the same, clearly, because you have more able and talented children from poor backgrounds. Differentiation is a challenge for schools, but it's absolutely essential that all groups of children do as well as they possibly can. So, in things like PISA, in terms of reading, for example, we can't just say it's that group that needs to improve—all the groups need to improve. And I think that's why something like the new curriculum gives schools more scope to tailor their teaching and learning to the particular groups that they have, whether they’re more able, whether they're advantaged or whether they're disadvantaged. Pupils' confidence in their school's ability to help them with their emotional and mental well-being is much less at secondary school and that's been a consistent theme as well from your reports. As we mentioned earlier, we do pupil surveys before all our inspections, and across a number of those indicators, like, 'How well does the school listen? Do adults in school care about me? How well does the school deal with bullying?'—quite a lot those ones around well-being do tail off. Nine out of 10 pupils at key stage 2 have that confidence, down to half at key stage 4, as you say. And I think there are a number of factors that we think contribute to that: I think one of the factors is that pupils face, sometimes, more challenges as they get older in those teenage years, but they also become more reflective and perhaps more discerning. And I think what we find in secondary schools is perhaps secondary school pupils notice sometimes the differences between their everyday life that they experience in school and perhaps the messages that they're getting about well-being in terms of their lessons, in terms of assemblies and in terms of school policies and so on. So, they are probably more discerning in noticing those differences and maybe there are some of those differences also there in primary school, but the pupils don't notice. I think we've already touched upon things like the differences in the way that, at primary school, you would tend to have a go-to adult, which is your teacher. The best secondary schools find ways to make sure that pupils do feel that level of support and feel there are trusted people, but it's more of a challenge to make sure that that happens, because of the way they're operating. We still have some concerns about personal and social education and the health and well-being support, which we've made a recommendation about in the past in some of our thematic reports, but also recently in some of our secondary school inspection reports. And I think I already touched upon the fact that sometimes, when the budget is tight, it can be some of those—they're not peripheral in their importance, but they're not the teacher in the classroom: well-being support assistants and so on and family liaison workers—staff in the school who perhaps really support that pastoral care that the school as a whole can provide—it may be that those are the roles that are less prevalent at times of less funding. So, I think there are some great members of staff doing a really good job, but perhaps they're not those members of staff who can support teachers and support pupils in creating that kind of caring environment. So, I think there's not an obvious answer and part of it is that they do become more discerning and perhaps more vocal in those responses generally, as they get older. And that might explain some of the difference with primary, where, generally, they're quite positive about everything across most of the schools that we ask. lynne neagle am: So, it's not that secondary schools—because you've said that in a previous inspection report—are just not as good at prioritising mental health and well-being. jassa scott: I think there's an element that it's more of a challenge for a secondary school to provide an effective set of support from that whole-staff awareness of some of the challenges. And one of the pieces of work we've done recently is around adverse childhood experiences, and we have found that primary schools have taken that and embraced it. So, maybe not every member of staff has the same level of understanding, but also those staff aren't spending the same amount of time with pupils. So, in terms of getting to know pupils, picking up on signs that they may be struggling, or that there might be concerns—it's much more of a challenge. You've got to work a lot harder as a secondary school to make sure that staff have that knowledge and that you've got the tracking systems that can put those different bits of  information together to actually mean that you can target support where it's needed. Obviously, we've had one case in north Wales, in an independent school, where there were serious concerns. What's that done to your desire to monitor and check what's going on in these independent schools? Are they regulated sufficiently? jassa scott: I'll pick up on that as well. So, some have boarding provision, and where they have boarding provision, Care Inspectorate Wales would look at the boarding side of it, we'd look at the educational side of it. There are others where they may have a linked children's home, which can be another room in the same house, or it can be a number of miles away, and similarly there CIW would look at the residential aspects of the care and we'd look at the school. So, I think, there's a focus in the independent school standards regulations, which is a minimum that all schools have to meet to maintain a registration. There is a focus in that on how that school looks after and cares for its pupils, and there are focuses on that element of boarding provision where relevant, and the national minimum standards that the care inspectorate look at that have aspects around supporting well-being as well. What we do find in our inspections is that, overall, we generally find that pupils' well-being develops, they make good progress, and that care, support and guidance that schools give is good. What we mean by that, really, practically, is that they are developing their resilience and their self-esteem. In special schools, this might mean particularly that those pupils learn to manage their anxieties better so that they improve their behaviour, which may be one of the reasons why they're in that specialist setting. In mainstream independent schools, what we find is that people develop their tenacity, their curiosity for learning—their resilience in that way. For example, there was one school where we found that they weren't making appropriate referrals to child and adolescent mental health services. So, these schools do operate independently by their nature, and their awareness, perhaps, of some of the guidance and support that is out there—sometimes, maybe, there can be more to be done, and I think we've talked to Welsh Government about that. suzy davies am: What's Estyn's role in that—to bring that level of awareness to those schools? jassa scott: I think we do through our inspection guidance, and the independent school standards do refer to Welsh Government guidance—it's something like 'Keeping learners safe', which is a really key document, which supports safeguarding and caring across schools. So, I think the other area is that sometimes we don't have the intelligence about what—. So, for example, if there's been a safeguarding referral from a school, we don't necessarily always get that information, which means that when we do go to inspect, we may not have the full picture to help us tailor our inspection activity. So, that's something we've raised— lynne neagle am: [Inaudible.]—be brief and brief in answers. Do you mind if I move on to the next question? lynne neagle am: We're going to have to skip those, I'm afraid, and talk to the last set of questions, just because of the time pressures. What role, if any, did Estyn have in the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development's latest review of progress in school improvement when they visited Wales in late 2019? meilyr rowlands: Well, we were interviewed. Therefore, the three of us had an interview with the OECD officials and we offered evidence to them. And I think that, when the report is published, you will see that the OECD does draw on our broader evidence and will be quoting our reports—the annual report and some of our thematic reports. How significant a role do you believe the national evaluation and improvement resource will play in raising school standards? meilyr rowlands: I think that it's very important. It's Claire who has been specifically tasked with that, so I'll ask Claire to speak about it. claire morgan: I think working together with the practitioners, the regions and representatives from local authorities is a great opportunity to develop a national approach, because we know across Wales there's some excellent practice, but we know there are schools that struggle to bring about improvement. So, this national resource has the potential to provide schools with detailed guidance on how they can approach not only self-evaluation, but, more importantly, how they can bring about that improvement. Half of those have been involved in developing the tools and approaches right from the start, and 22 new schools have come on board this year. But we anticipate that there will be lots of tools and approaches within that resource that schools can use to improve the quality of self-evaluation throughout the school, primaries, secondaries, PRUs and special schools. But it will focus on establishing a culture within the school that focuses on improvement, that establishes a reflective culture where all staff are involved in development. So, we're hoping that this tool—it's still currently in development, but we hope that that will support schools really well. And, with regard to comparison of performance, does the lack of comparative attainment data raise difficulties when you're inspecting and drawing conclusions and standards in schools? meilyr rowlands: Not really, no. I think there was a bit of a myth that a lot of this performance data was just for Estyn, but actually it never has been. We look at standards, we look at teaching and learning in the classroom, we look at well-being, we look at care support and guidance, we look at leadership, we look at all of these things, and we look at it based on first-hand evidence—what we actually see in the classroom. So, we're quite happy to continue to inspect schools, and we in fact support having less emphasis on data because, although data is useful, and we hope that schools will continue to analyse their data and use that data to help them self-improve and self-evaluate, we don't actually need it and it has actually created a bit of a high-stakes culture. We've come to the end of our time, so can I thank you all for your attendance? As usual, you'll receive a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting. Paper to note 1 is a ministerial update on the emotional and mental health of children and young people in Wales—next steps for 'Mind over matter'. Paper to note 2 is a letter from the Minister for Housing and Local Government regarding teachers' pay and pensions, and paper to note 3 is a letter to the Minister for Education from us regarding the school funding review. Can I then propose under Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Great
Despite some primary schools having surplus funds, many secondary schools are facing deficits and a lack of funds. Additionally, there is a shortage of teachers with appropriate training. Concerns arise regarding the ability of lower-tier schools to adapt to the new curriculum and improve teaching quality. The approach to students has not changed, but individual circumstances may require adjustments from the Student Loans Company. Challenges in service delivery may arise due to staff shortages caused by illness, self-isolation, or adherence to social-distancing measures. Early monitoring was implemented due to the presence of campuses and activities in China and Southeast Asia. The oil and gas industry has been heavily impacted by anti-oil and gas lobby groups, resulting in the introduction of bills that restrict major projects and oil shipping. These actions have caused a significant decline in investment and a recession in the Alberta economy. Members express concerns about the government's handling of pandemic-related restrictions, particularly in relation to reopening businesses and providing effective stimulus. They emphasize the need to reopen fishing, restore agricultural supply chains, and support farmers. Questions are raised about the government's response to outbreaks in meat-packing plants and the provision of financial support to workers in unsafe conditions. The government is also questioned about providing pandemic relief funds to businesses utilizing tax havens. Hon. Chrystia Freeland acknowledges the hard work of farmers and emphasizes the importance of a safe working environment, trusting the Food Inspection Agency to regulate conditions.
Summarize the difficulties faced by secondary schools in carrying out curriculum reform, the opinions on support or changes of circumstances, the stress faced by the oil and gas industry, and the discussion about restoring Canadian businesses during the pandemic. Additionally, provide insights on the perspectives of Heather McPherson and Chrystia Freeland on restoring Canadian businesses during the pandemic.