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Dungeon Delver's Guide: A Sourcebook for 5E and A5E. An essential tome for creating, exploring, and running dungeons in your 5E or A5E game. Home Community General Tabletop Discussion *Pathfinder & Starfinder JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly. You should upgrade or use an alternative browser. Pathfinder 2E Pathfinder 2 and support for other playing styles/subgenres Thread starter CapnZapp Start date Mar 29, 2021 Prev 1 … Go to page Go 7 8 9 First Prev 9 of 9 Go to page Go MockingBird Adventurer Aug 14, 2022 #161 Nilbog said: Ah another bash PF2 thread (nice that this one is necro'ed not new though) I thought we'd gone too long without anyone having a dig. Click to expand... Wouldn't really call it a dig or bash. Far as I can tell someone was interested enough to look into but decided against it. Reply Reactions: CapnZapp, Parmandur and Matrix Sorcica log in or register to remove this ad Luceilia Explorer Aug 14, 2022 #162 CapnZapp said: Thank you. I put a lot of play testing and analysis into it. Click to expand... No problem. Just curious, have you experimented with backporting the monsters (or at least their special abilities) to 1e? The 2E monsters feel really really good Reply Justice and Rule Hero Aug 14, 2022 #163 MockingBird said: Wouldn't really call it a dig or bash. Far as I can tell someone was interested enough to look into but decided against it. Click to expand... The necro post, no. The original thread content? Yeah, a bit. Reply CapnZapp Legend Aug 14, 2022 #164 Luceilia said: Just curious, have you experimented with backporting the monsters (or at least their special abilities) to 1e? Click to expand... Afraid not. I have no plans on ever returning to 3E/PF1 for basically one reason only: the way monsters are created like characters. After having seen my NPCs get destroyed without ever taking a single action despite spending hours on creating them one too many times, I'm done with d20 for life. I could conceivably enter a d20 campaign as a player as long as I never again have to create monsters for it When I quit 3E I also was burned out on the utter imbalance between character options, but with the lens of nostalgia I'm prepared to ignore that bit... I'm currently playing Dungeon Crawl Classics (as the DM or Judge). The campaign is fairly atypical, being a troupe-style campaign set in a humanocentric Sword & Sorcery world inspired by the classic and deeply flawed Barbarian movies of the 80's. I'm having a genuine blast, but I realize I won't use DCC for regular (Forgotten Realmsian) D&D campaigns. Currently the only serious candidate for such future plans is to return to 5E. We'll see if that means regular 5E or Level Up A5E. Reply Reactions: dave2008 and Parmandur Justice and Rule Hero Aug 14, 2022 #165 CapnZapp said: Afraid not. I have no plans on ever returning to 3E/PF1 for basically one reason only: the way monsters are created like characters. After having seen my NPCs get destroyed without ever taking a single action despite spending hours on creating them one too many times, I'm done with d20 for life. I could conceivably enter a d20 campaign as a player as long as I never again have to create monsters for it When I quit 3E I also was burned out on the utter imbalance between character options, but with the lens of nostalgia I'm prepared to ignore that bit... Click to expand... There's nothing quite like looking at an NPC's statblock and seeing two dozen feats you have to look up. I get putting a lot of feats for PCs (which the players monitor), but god help me I don't need to see the half a dozen feats the local blacksmith has. Moving away from building everything as characters was one of the smartest moves for post-3.x d20 systems. Reply Reactions: Aldarc, heretic888, Campbell and 3 others R Retreater Legend Aug 14, 2022 #166 Justice and Rule said: There's nothing quite like looking at an NPC's statblock and seeing two dozen feats you have to look up. I get putting a lot of feats for PCs (which the players monitor), but god help me I don't need to see the half a dozen feats the local blacksmith has. Moving away from building everything as characters was one of the smartest moves for post-3.x d20 systems. Click to expand... I liked the way monsters were built in 4e and 13th Age. I'm not sure how to do it in PF2 - I don't recall having seen simple monster creation rules. Reply Reactions: Eric V and heretic888 Luceilia Explorer Aug 14, 2022 #167 Justice and Rule said: There's nothing quite like looking at an NPC's statblock and seeing two dozen feats you have to look up. I get putting a lot of feats for PCs (which the players monitor), but god help me I don't need to see the half a dozen feats the local blacksmith has. Moving away from building everything as characters was one of the smartest moves for post-3.x d20 systems. Click to expand... In a way it's a strength of the system with sufficient system mastery. Rather than being forced to come up with unique stuff (although unique stuff is awesome and any time you're inspired it's fantastic to make it) I can grab any creature, slap on the feats and possibly class levels/spells/gear I want and bam done. I don't have any personal experience with Cap's complaint about feats and creation time, for me by the time I was making higher level adversaries I was also intimately familiar with the system and could slap them together in 2-3 minutes (of course it probably helps I don't particularly care about 'challenging the players.' I take the CR system at face value and lowball a bit, because I prefer an environment where players can really deeply resonate with a character without fear that they could die at any moment. They theoretically can, of course, but by the way I run the odds of that are incredibly low (until resurrection is on the table, then I crank things up a bit.) Last edited: Aug 14, 2022 Reply Justice and Rule Hero Aug 14, 2022 #168 Retreater said: I liked the way monsters were built in 4e and 13th Age. I'm not sure how to do it in PF2 - I don't recall having seen simple monster creation rules. Click to expand... I integrated some ideas from 13th Age into my 5E game, but I made it a bit more complex; I liked the "This die roll result means they took this action", which I did a variation of. It was cool to have gnolls that had a sort of randomized programming, whether it be to shield bash, whack, or bite. Like, the actual building rules? I don't think they are particularly complicated, though they do go through all the ins and outs so it is a bit lengthy. Luceilia said: In a way it's a strength of the system with sufficient system mastery. Rather than being forced to come up with unique stuff (although unique stuff is awesome and any time you're inspired it's fantastic to make it) I can grab any monster or race, slap on the feats and possibly class levels/spells/gear I want and bam done. I don't have any personal experience with Cap's complaint about feats and creation time, for me by the time I was making higher level adversaries I was also intimately familiar with the system and could slap them together in 2-3 minutes (of course it probably helps I don't particularly care about 'challenging the players.' I take the CR system at face value and lowball a bit, because I prefer an environment where players can really deeply resonate with a character without fear that they could die at any moment. They theoretically can, of course, but by the way I run the odds of that are incredibly low (until resurrection is on the table, then I crank things up a bit.) Click to expand... Certainly helps. I mean, I'm more okay with spell lists on NPCs because I typically know spells better than I know random feats. But I also get people who don't want expansive spell lists for monsters because it can just bog things down. But building monsters as full character misses that I'd rather just have what they can do rather than needing to see how it got there. Reply CapnZapp Legend Aug 16, 2022 #169 Retreater said: I liked the way monsters were built in 4e and 13th Age. I'm not sure how to do it in PF2 - I don't recall having seen simple monster creation rules. Click to expand... Paizo has published monster creation guidelines. I find them dry and colorless, however. It's all numbers and tables. Things like "a difficult melee brawler at this level should have between 26-29 AC" for example, and then onwards for all the chief stats of the game. But there is none of the "world building" stuff; the stuff that sets Golarion apart from any random world; nothing of the cool things you see in the monster manuals. Things like how all kobolds (or gnolls etc) share certain traits, strengths and advantages. What all these tables and procedural steps boils down to is you will get complete but basic monster stats compatible with the bestiary. It's an alternative to doing just that - checking out the bestiary for a comparable beastie (similar level and combat role) and then just stealing its numbers. I found this much more inspiring, since the Bestiary doesn't just give you the fundamental numbers; it also provides loads of examples of unique powers, and it showcases which traits and abilities Paizo thinks are suitable for various monsters. In comparison, the monster creation rules read like having to read through your dishwasher manual... and there aren't any "secrets" to monster creation, or at least, none Paizo shares with us. Cheers PS. Neither method is what I'd call "simple". PF2 just isn't a simple game. Even though the monsters - thank the gods! - doesn't touch player character generation (and its thousands of feats etc), it's still a fairly involved procedure. And you do want to follow the guidelines! For elite creatures leveled higher than the heroes, you need to be somewhat careful; "just winging it" may work in forgiving D&D derivatives, but not here. Last edited: Aug 16, 2022 Reply The-Magic-Sword Hero Aug 16, 2022 #170 This thread reminds me that I should write an update on my West Marches when I've got the spoons, its doing very well sans a few personal issues we've run into that don't really have anything to do with system. 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