When we speak, Perel is delighted by the ingenuity of her podcast and as always, endlessly fascinated by the way people behave and treat one another. She tells me a little about how she works: “There’s an episode where I speak with a man who is addicted to his infidelity; he’s been cheating on his wife since the day they got married 36 years ago. In the episode, you hear me help him move from shame to guilt. That’s an important transition because shame is still about him, shame is self-referential, shame is a form of self-loathing. Whereas guilt is a relational response for hurting someone else, it is an expression of conscience. When you move from shame to guilt, you take responsibility for your actions and it involves some compassion. I help people like this man move away from shame and become accountable for their actions.”