“I don’t see things in black and white as much as some people,” Klobuchar told Vogue. “I tend to maybe forgive.” While that sounds clearly at odds with how former staffers say the senator treated them, the operative word here is maybe. According to psychologist Chloe Carmichael, PhD — who has not treated Klobuchar — people who have had difficult upbringings often develop rigid and inflexible boundaries and expectations because they’ve had to deal with parents or authority figures who were out of control and undependable. “If you are someone that overcame that type of situation through learning how to set standards, and then making an unfailing commitment to yourself that you will not allow anyone to violate those boundaries because you know how toxic and terrifying it can be…it becomes a healthy reaction [to you] to defend your boundaries quickly and decisively any time someone crosses them,” she said.