My H, when we first met, fit somewhere in the middle of the extreme with his reactions. He used to turn a little too obviously to follow the progress of a female - (if he enjoyed the front view he wanted to also check out the rear), but with a few elbows to the ribs early on he became more discreet.
He subscribed to Playboy for decades, and I never really objected to that. It was a different matter, however, if I caught him peering out the window at the sunbathing neighbor. Do you guys see the difference, and why this bothered me? (No A with the neighbor, thank goodness.) I believe he subscribed to the theory that it was acceptable to look but not touch, which I agreed with to a point. That also probably enabled him in falling into an OEA - he knew he was never going to be near this person or touch her - but that's a t/j for another day.
Another thing he used to do that bothered me was if he was out somewhere in public - say a fair, or at the races, etc., and saw a young woman in revealing clothing that he could discreetly photograph, he would. I also saw that as being very different from the Playboy thing - somehow intruding on these women's privacy, even though they chose to dress that way in public. I didn't like it.
Post d-day, I became much less 'understanding' - any female photos were destroyed. I believe his attitude about that type of thing has changed also - he's not a good actor, never has been. I think he is much less likely to just snap a photo of any pretty girl he sees.
FWIW, when we met I was an aerobics instructor and did swimsuit modelling for the first several years of our marriage. So it's not as if I suffered from self-esteem issues about my appearance.
I'm rambling all over the place here, sorry. Just got to thinking and wondering where most guys stand with regard to making the most of opportunities to look at women they find attractive. Thanks for bearing with me!
While my boundaries might make it "okay" to look -- or strike up a conversation, or have some sort of minimal physical contact -- it might not be permissible within their boundary structure ... which makes it wrong.
I get that this is something most people don't actively think about. I know I didn't for a very long time, and it's something I definitely spend time thinking about now.
Guys do like to look. Its a natural drive. I consider myself fairly conservative and considerate, and even I like to look. That said, there is a difference between what is 'acceptable' and what is 'considerate'. I would never buy Playboy and certainly never photograph neighbours! Its about not only what I think is 'ok', but what my partner thinks is ok and not upsetting her, and in that respect is a very individual thing, I think.
Bare in mind that whatever boundaries you set, he will bend them by about 10% anyway, so account for that too.
[This message edited by Ixion at 2:06 AM, July 17th (Wednesday)]
I have been in counseling and read numerous books.
Pre-A I would notice and look at other women....in real life as well as pornography. My wife and I had very regular sex...I would say more then most couples we know...and I would masturbate regularly...my wife had almost full knowledge of this and she would view porn with me some too...I didn't sneak around but I didn't always tell her every time I did it either. I saw no harm in it then.
Again, I thought this is a normal guy thing.
Since the affair I have done what is recommended...I have worked on the only person I can change...ME!
I have specifically concentrated on what intimacy is and how it is nurtured or destroyed.
Most of the time I am 180 degrees different on this topic now. I say most of the time because it is a natural urge within me to still look.
But just because it is a natural urge does not make it healthy...and certainly does not make it harmless.
Maybe too much info following...but feel the need to explain how I have changed.
I have masturbated exactly 7 times since DD (10 months ago)...each time it has felt less fulfilling. This is in the face of decreasing sex with my wife. So here I am...having less sex with my wife and spending less time masturbating too.
I am literally shocked to find out that I can go days...weeks without sex. There was a point in my life that I literally thought a man HAS to have that release to be healthy. Even now I wonder sometimes if I will be able to do it after not doing it for weeks. I cant explain this crazy thought...just telling you it was such a part of me for decades that a part of me still gets concerned....
Now, in real life, I find myself bouncing my eyes more. I still have a strong desire to soak in the beauty of most women...not just Barbie types...but am getting pretty good at stopping myself.
I am not taking credit for my wifes decision to have an affair...but I plainly see how my actions pre-A hurt intimacy in my marriage. And if it didn't always hurt it...it never helped nurture it.
NOTE: Pre-A anytime I viewed an attractive woman in real life and thought inappropriate thoughts about her...it was all in a fantasy bubble. Since the A...I have had moments where I would view an attractive woman and see it as a real possibility...and that feeling scares the hell out of me! This is when I really started to focus on this aspect of ME...and what I was and am willing to do for myself and my wife.
This entire experience is life-altering.
God be with us all.
[This message edited by blakesteele at 4:09 AM, July 17th (Wednesday)]
I think it is only through conscious decisions that men will move in the unnatural direction of healthy intimacy and away from the natural, primal sex drive they have inside them. that's my honest perception.
[This message edited by blakesteele at 4:15 AM, July 17th (Wednesday)]
Just was pondering on the things he used to do and how I felt about it at the time. In the aftermath of the OEA I started to pick at old scabs and dig up issues that weren't fully dealt with back in the day. "You did THAT 20 yrs ago and it really hurt!"
And of course we could start a whole other thread on how healthy it is for me to dig up old grudges on behaviors that haven't been an issue for years.
Nah I don't think that last part. The dinosaurs thing. That part, I made that up.
Taking pics or peeping on someone seems violating. Creepy level violating. Like, a few steps away from a wall filled criminal evidence kind of creepy.
My H now seems embarrassed if I bring up his old behaviors. But I was also reminded of this topic not long ago when a co-worker was sharing that her H came back from a trip with his buddies with lots of Girls Gone Wild type photos - wet t-shirt contests, that type of thing. This lady didn't seem to mind her H doing that, seemed to think it was funny. Another coworker chimed in that she would NOT be happy if her own H did that. I kept quiet, didn't really want to share that my H used to be like that too.
MartlArts, you said you could open another thread to discuss whether it's healthy to bring up "old grudges." I'll just address it in this thread.
Examining patterns post d-day is really important. It's not fun, and it can hurt, but it helps you understand what's happened so that you can ensure it doesn't happen again.
I have to add: photographing people without their consent is a HUGE breach of boundary, and I would have a real problem with it. As you turn things over in your mind, please be honest about their significance. This is a biggie. You went from being concerned to defending your husband, who's gone from worrisome WS to "getting better over the years." How did that happen? How did a man who's cheated in the very recent past graduate to "much better over the years?"
Don't betray yourself by being dishonest while examining your life together. Trust me on this---there is NO worse betrayal to overcome than self-betrayal.
Then she finally pushed too far, and he apparently had an OMG She's serious moment, and went NC after that. He didn't go so far as to block her, just stopped responding. The more he ignored the more desperate she got. At the time I got that weird gut feeling it had been several months since he'd responded to her and she was stepping up the campaign to recapture his attention, but not succeeding. I got in touch with her and let her know I had the ammunition to blow up her life, and that was that.
And yes, I'm confident the above is accurate. I have filters on that H is unaware of. I also have cyberstalked her a bit and have indications she set her sights elsewhere.
So cheating - yes, there was an EA, and it hurt that he gave that attention to someone else. He did not "get" the slippery slope he was on until she really got blatant. Then he thought he'd dodged a bullet by NC-ing her. We've now been through the Not Just Friends and other reading, and he understands and does NOT want to be part of that again.
So - long answer to the very valid question you asked, sorry. But the fact is that it has been many years since the asshat behavior of ogling females. The OEA was a new type of stupid asshat behavior.
He did not seem to get - in both those instances - that there were other types of cheating besides PA. He gets it now, I believe. But my mind was wondering about how the guys on here react, hence my question.
[This message edited by MartlArts at 3:42 PM, July 17th (Wednesday)]
The EA? Yeah. I can see how he sort of got clobbered by that. And it seems as though he has owned that, as well---which is often a real hurdle.
I can't turn off my eyes, though sometimes I wish I could. I figure I'm wired to notice women, and I do - but my W didn't worry about it until her mid 50s. She's OK with it now, too, since I think she realizes I like seeing women, but I really like looking at her, if you see the diff.
Playboy is pictures ... not real. Real people are real. I see a big diff there. Real people are entitled to some privacy. OTOH, if a neighbor is exhibiting herself inappropriately, I do my best not to buy into her game.
Snapping photos surreptitiously is a violation of the subjects, IMO. The subject owns her image. A secret photo, even in a public place, seems a lot like stealing to me. (Besides, I'd much rather look at my W IRL than a pic of any random woman I fleetingly saw, so I really don't see the point. Except maybe if it's Salma Hayek or Megan Fox or someone like that.)
Anyway, I look. I enjoy. I pass on. Seeing a sexy woman on the street is great, but it's only a fleeting pleasure for me.
T/J - Strange thing, though...we go to an outdoor dance every Summer week. It starts with a lesson, and there's always a (different) woman who almost mesmerizes me. But when the dancing starts, if it's swing, there's a guy who draws my eye - I sure wish I could dance like he does.