8 March 2006
Source: Digital transcript purchased from Exemplaris.com. Files digitally signed by reporter.
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393 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF VIRGINIA 2 ALEXANDRIA DIVISION 3 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, . Criminal No. 1:01cr455 . 4 vs. . Alexandria, Virginia . March 8, 2006 5 ZACARIAS MOUSSAOUI, . 9:30 a.m. a/k/a Shaqil, a/k/a . 6 Abu Khalid al Sahrawi, . . 7 Defendant. . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . 9 TRANSCRIPT OF JURY TRIAL BEFORE THE HONORABLE LEONIE M. BRINKEMA 10 UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE 11 VOLUME III 12 APPEARANCES: 13 FOR THE GOVERNMENT: ROBERT A. SPENCER, AUSA DAVID J. NOVAK, AUSA 14 DAVID RASKIN, AUSA United States Attorney's Office 15 2100 Jamieson Avenue Alexandria, VA 22314 16 and JOHN W. VAN LONKHUYZEN, ESQ. 17 U.S. Department of Justice Counterterrorism Section 18 10th and Constitution Avenue, N.W. Room 2736 19 Washington, D.C. 20530 20 FOR THE DEFENDANT: GERALD THOMAS ZERKIN KENNETH P. TROCCOLI 21 ANNE M. CHAPMAN Assistant Federal Public Defenders 22 Office of the Federal Public Defender 23 1650 King Street Alexandria, VA 22314 24 25 COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPTION OF STENOGRAPHIC NOTES 394 1 APPEARANCES: (Cont'd.) 2 FOR THE DEFENDANT: EDWARD B. MAC MAHON, JR., ESQ. P.O. Box 903 3 107 East Washington Street Middleburg, VA 20118 4 and ALAN H. YAMAMOTO, ESQ. 5 643 South Washington Street Alexandria, VA 22314-3032 6 ALSO PRESENT: GERARD FRANCISCO 7 8 COURT REPORTERS: ANNELIESE J. THOMSON, RDR, CRR U.S. District Court, Fifth Floor 9 401 Courthouse Square Alexandria, VA 22314 10 (703)299-8595 and 11 KAREN BRYNTESON, FAPR, RMR, CRR Brynteson Reporting, Inc. 12 2404 Belle Haven Meadows Court Alexandria, VA 22306 13 (703)768-8122 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 395 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 (Defendant in, Jury out.) 3 THE CLERK: Criminal Case 2001-455, United States of 4 America v. Zacarias Moussaoui. Counsel please note their 5 appearance for the record. 6 MR. SPENCER: Rob Spencer, David Novak, and David Raskin 7 for the United States. 8 THE COURT: Good morning. 9 MR. MAC MAHON: Edward MacMahon, Ken Troccoli, Jerry 10 Zerkin, and Alan Yamamoto for the defendant. 11 THE COURT: All right, counsel. First of all, I assume 12 you saw the letter we received from Juror 0299 and my proposed 13 response. Is there any objection? 14 MR. SPENCER: No objection, Your Honor. 15 THE COURT: How about from the defense? 16 MR. MAC MAHON: No objection, Your Honor. 17 THE COURT: All right. Then a copy of the original of 18 my letter will go to the juror during the morning break. 19 Now, my understanding is there is one or two preliminary 20 matters before the jury comes in? 21 MR. SPENCER: Yes, Your Honor. 22 THE COURT: Do you need to approach? 23 MR. SPENCER: On one of them we do, Your Honor. 24 THE COURT: Approach. What machine, C machine? 25 MR. SPENCER: Yeah, we might as well, Your Honor. 396 1 THE COURT: All right. 2 (Bench Conference E not transcribed in this volume.) 3 (Bench Conference on the record.) 4 [--- Redacted 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 397 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 398 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 399 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 400 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 ---] (End of bench conference.) 24 THE COURT: Mr. Wood, we can bring the jury in now. 25 Thank you. 401 1 (Jury in.) 2 THE COURT: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Thank 3 you for being here. I know all of you were on time. Have a seat, 4 please. 5 I want you to understand occasionally there are some 6 logistical matters that we have to address in the morning. We 7 were ready at 9:30 and working, actually. I hate to waste the 8 jury's time, and I would like to explain to you why sometimes we 9 don't start exactly on 9:30 from your perspective. We actually 10 have been doing some things here. 11 I want to first of all ask any of you again whether any 12 of you bumped into any media coverage about the case in any form 13 last night. No? Excellent. You have been doing very well. 14 And I wanted to -- I mentioned, I'm sorry, the court 15 security officers brought to my attention that some of you are 16 frustrated by where you are sitting in terms of what you can see 17 or not see in the courtroom. You are not, any of you, frozen to a 18 particular seat. 19 In fact, during the course of the trial, you might want 20 to change locations just so some of you have the closer access to 21 the screen, and I know all of you want to be able to see the 22 witness, see the defendant, see counsel, and you have a right to 23 move yourselves around. The only thing I'd ask, again, is because 24 I like to be able to make eye contact with you, is that we have 25 one of the taller jurors sitting in the seat in which -- 204? 402 1 THE JUROR: 402, Your Honor. 2 THE COURT: I was close, 402 is sitting. He doesn't own 3 that seat, but I do need one of the taller jurors to be sitting 4 there just so, again, I can make sure I can see each one of you, 5 but other than that you can move around. 6 I have to also advise you again, the reason why even 7 jurors cannot bring Blackberrys or Palm Pilots or cell phones into 8 the building is this is an across-the-board security concern. 9 It's not unique to this case. 10 And so I know some of you have made that request. 11 Whether we can get a telephone for you in the jury room, it is a 12 matter of whether there is wiring for that in that particular 13 room. Otherwise, you will have to continue to use the ones 14 available to you, and I hope that that works out. 15 All right. I also want to just alert you to what we're 16 going to start off with this morning. You may recall from the 17 preliminary instructions I gave you, I indicated that one of the 18 ways in which evidence can be presented, witness evidence can be 19 presented, is by way of a rule 15 deposition, and that's what we 20 are going to have first thing this morning. 21 The individual witness who you will hear by a video is a 22 man whose last name is Bafana. He is an individual who was in 23 custody in Singapore. His deposition was taken in November of 24 2002. I actually presided over that deposition. I was sitting in 25 this courtroom from the bench right here. We had a two-way video 403 1 hookup via a satellite to that location. 2 Counsel were present at the location to ask questions of 3 the witness. Mr. Moussaoui, who was at that time acting as his 4 own attorney, plus other members of the prosecution team and other 5 standby defense counsel were in this courtroom, and the witness 6 was questioned both by the prosecutor, both by a standby defense 7 attorney, and by the defendant. The witness was also shown 8 exhibits, just as you've seen going on in this courtroom today. 9 We are going to present that testimony to you in a few minutes. 10 Now, a couple of things I want you to understand. You 11 will get what is called a split-screen presentation. That means 12 your video will be half the picture of the witness and half the 13 picture of exhibits as they are shown to him. 14 It's going to be difficult to read the exhibits from 15 what you're going to see on the screen. You will when you go to 16 deliberate actually have the physical exhibits in your possession, 17 so don't be frustrated if you cannot make out clearly what is 18 written on the documents. 19 You should also know this case has been around a long 20 time, and over the course of time, attorneys have been added to 21 the case and have been -- have left the case. And both the 22 attorney who was representing the prosecution in the asking of 23 those questions and the standby attorney who was asking questions 24 on behalf of the defendant are no longer members of the trial 25 teams in this case, so you will see lawyers you haven't seen 404 1 before. 2 And as I said, Mr. Moussaoui was acting as his own 3 attorney during that deposition. And as I told you at the 4 beginning of the trial, the fact that he is no longer acting as 5 his own attorney is a fact from which you should draw absolutely 6 no inferences for or against him. That's just a neutral fact, but 7 you needed to understand the background. 8 Anything further I need to add to the preliminaries on 9 that, Mr. Raskin? 10 MR. RASKIN: No, Your Honor. 11 THE COURT: All right. 12 MR. MAC MAHON: No, Your Honor, thank you. 13 THE COURT: All right. So we're going to -- first, as I 14 understand it, Mr. Raskin is just going to give us a list of the 15 exhibits which are being moved in through this deposition. 16 MR. RASKIN: Your Honor, first, the government formally 17 offers GX-25, which is a video cassette of the deposition, and 18 GX-25T, which is a transcript of the deposition. 19 THE COURT: All right. Those are in, because I 20 understand there's no objection. 21 MR. MAC MAHON: That's correct, Your Honor. 22 THE COURT: All right. 23 (Government's Exhibit Nos. GX-25 and GX-25T were 24 received in evidence.) 25 MR. RASKIN: Then the exhibits that were admitted during 405 1 the course of the deposition are as follows: OL-110, OL-111, 2 OL-112, OL-113, OL-117, OL-118, OL-119, OL-125, OL-126, OL-127, 3 OL-128, OL-129, OL-140.120, OL-140.123, and OL-140.48, which is an 4 exhibit that has already been admitted during the testimony of 5 Agent Anticev. 6 THE COURT: Under that number? 7 MR. RASKIN: Under that number. 8 THE COURT: All right. 9 MR. MAC MAHON: Can I inquire of the government one 10 second, Your Honor, with the Court's indulgence? 11 THE COURT: Yes, sir. 12 MR. MAC MAHON: That's fine, Your Honor. Thank you. 13 MR. RASKIN: We offer those exhibits now, Your Honor. 14 THE COURT: All right. My understanding is there is no 15 objection to those exhibits. 16 MR. MAC MAHON: No objection, Your Honor. 17 THE COURT: All right. They are all in. 18 (Government's Exhibit Nos. OL-110, OL-111, OL-112, 19 OL-113, OL-117, OL-118, OL-119, OL-125, OL-126, OL-127, OL-128, 20 OL-129, OL-140.120, OL-140.123, and OL-140.48 were received in 21 evidence.) 22 MR. RASKIN: Permission to play GX-25. 23 THE COURT: And that will, also as I understand it, be 24 visible and audible at the off-site locations? 25 MR. RASKIN: That's our understanding as well. 406 1 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. 2 FAIZ ABU BAKER BAFANA, GOVERNMENT'S WITNESS, AFFIRMED 3 (Excerpt of GX-25 played and transcribed as follows:) 4 "Q: Mr. Bafana, do you remember how it was that you learned about 5 the sheikh's fatwah regarding the attack, attacks on American 6 military and civilian interests? 7 "THE COURT: I'm sorry, Mr. Karas, there is an 8 objection. Mr. Moussaoui?" 9 MR. RASKIN: Your Honor, there is a technical problem. 10 If we could have one moment? 11 THE COURT: All right. Counsel, if we can't get this 12 working, can we shift to a live witness and then play this? Is it 13 ready now? 14 MR. RASKIN: I think we're at the right spot. Okay, 15 we've got it. 16 THE COURT: All right. 17 (Government's Exhibit No. 25, videotape, played and 18 transcribed as follows:) 19 (Deponent present in Singapore.) 20 THE CLERK: Will the witness please rise? Will the 21 witness please rise? 22 THE COURT: Mr. Spencer, would you tell the witness he 23 needs to stand up and he's now going to take -- make a promise to 24 tell the truth, which will be administered to him by the Clerk of 25 the Court. 407 1 THE COURT: You may sit down, sir. 2 Go ahead, Mr. Karas. 3 MR. KARAS: Thank you, Your Honor. 4 DIRECT EXAMINATION 5 BY MR. KARAS: 6 Q. Sir, if you could please state and spell your name for the 7 record? 8 A. My name is Faiz Abu Baker Bafana, F-a-i-z A-b-u B-a-k-e-r 9 B-a-f-a-n-a. 10 Q. Now, sir, as you can see, there's a microphone in front of 11 you here by the screen, and there's another microphone on the 12 table. I'd ask that you speak loudly and clearly so that you can 13 be heard in the United States. 14 Can you tell us when and where you were born? 15 A. I was born in 1962, in Singapore. 16 Q. How far did you get in school? 17 A. I received a diploma in civil engineering from Singapore 18 Polytechnic. 19 Q. Singapore Polytechnic? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. In what year did you receive your degree? 22 A. Diploma. 23 Q. I'm sorry, your diploma. What year did you receive your 24 diploma? 25 A. 1983. 408 1 Q. And after you graduated from Singapore Polytechnic, what did 2 you do? 3 A. I worked in Singapore for one year. 4 Q. And after you worked in Singapore for one year, what did you 5 do? 6 A. I went over to Malaysia. 7 Q. To Malaysia? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Did you get a work permit -- 10 THE COURT: I'm sorry, Mr. Karas, you need to stop for a 11 second. We're having trouble hearing here. Just one minute, 12 please. 13 MR. MOUSSAOUI: I asked him to stop to speak. 14 MR. NOVAK: I just, I just relayed the message to the 15 technical people to ask Mr. Bafana -- 16 MR. MOUSSAOUI: The one on the phone at the moment. 17 THE COURT: I understand that, Mr. Moussaoui. We're, 18 we're stopping it. 19 All right, Mr. Karas, could you go back, pick up after 20 the date and place of birth? Let's start that questioning over 21 again. I'm not sure it was recorded. 22 MR. KARAS: Yes, Your Honor. 23 Q. Mr. Bafana, if you could tell us how far you got in school, 24 please? 25 A. I got a diploma in civil engineering from Singapore 409 1 Polytechnic. 2 Q. At Singapore Polytechnic? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. In what year did you get your diploma? 5 A. 1983. 6 Q. And after you received your diploma, what did you do? 7 A. I worked in Singapore for one year. 8 Q. And after you worked in Singapore for one year, what did you 9 do? 10 A. I went over to Malaysia. 11 Q. Did you become a Malaysian citizen? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And from approximately 1984 until 1996, what did you do for a 14 living? 15 A. I worked in the construction company. 16 Q. And from 1996 until 2001, what did you do for a living? 17 A. I had my, my own company in the construction industry. 18 Q. And what kind of buildings did your construction company 19 build? 20 A. I built schools and some government buildings. 21 Q. Now, Mr. Bafana, since in or about the middle of December 22 2001, where have you been? 23 A. Can you repeat the question? 24 Q. Sure. Since the middle of December of 2001, where have you 25 been living? Where have you been? 410 1 A. I've been in detained in Singapore. 2 Q. You have been detained in Singapore? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. What's your understanding as to why you've been detained in 5 Singapore? 6 A. I was detained under the Internal Security Act. 7 Q. Now, sir, did there come a time in the mid-1980s that you 8 joined a religious group? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Can you tell us how that began? 11 A. It began from religious classes. 12 Q. And what happened during those religious classes that led you 13 to join a group? 14 A. During the religious classes, we met some of the, the groups, 15 and we take our allegiance oath. 16 Q. And to what group did you take your, your oath of allegiance 17 to? 18 A. The group belongs to Ustaz Abdullah Sungkar. 19 Q. Ustaz is U-s-t-a-z? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Abdullah, A-b-d-u-l-l-a-h? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Sungkar, S-u-n-g-k-a-r? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And is there a particular term for the oath of allegiance 411 1 that you took? 2 A. We call bayat. 3 Q. Bayat, b-a-y-a-t? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And what does it mean to pledge bayat? 6 A. To listen and to obey the leader of the group. 7 Q. What particular group did you join? 8 A. The Darul, Darul al-Islam. 9 Q. Darul, D-a-r-u-l? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Islam, I-s-l-a-m? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Now are you familiar with a group called Jemaah Islamiyah? 14 A. Yes. 15 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Objection. 16 BY MR. KARAS: 17 Q. Is it sometimes referred to as JI? 18 THE COURT: Wait just a minute. 19 THE WITNESS: Yes. 20 THE COURT: Mr. Karas, just a minute now. There's an 21 objection. 22 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Yes, object. 23 THE COURT: All right, there's an objection from 24 Mr. Moussaoui. Mr. Moussaoui needs to go up to the microphone. 25 And while we are taking a moment's break, I'm told that 412 1 we're getting some background noise because the witness may be too 2 close to the microphone. Is that correct? No? 3 No, no, forget that. The mike is too close to the 4 speaker? That's causing the feedback? Does that make sense to 5 you-all over there? The microphone is too close to the speaker, 6 and it's causing some feedback over here. 7 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, we're told that that does make 8 sense, and we will try to address it. 9 THE COURT: It's much better now. Thank you. 10 All right, Mr. Moussaoui, what is the nature of your 11 objection? 12 MR. MOUSSAOUI: I object, because he's leading the 13 witness. There's no foundation to him to talk about Jemaah 14 Islamiyah. The witness have make no inference about this, so 15 where it come from, this question? 16 THE COURT: All right. No, that's not a leading 17 question. The objection is overruled. 18 You may proceed, Mr. Karas. 19 MR. KARAS: Thank you, Your Honor. 20 Q. Mr. Bafana, can you tell us how JI began as a group? 21 A. It started with Darul al-Islam. At that time, it's Ajengan 22 Mastooki was the -- 23 Q. I'm sorry, say again? 24 A. It started with Darul al-Islam. 25 Q. Yes. 413 1 A. Ajengan Mastooki was the leader at that time. Then there was 2 some differences in the, the faith of Ajengan Mastooki and Ustaz 3 Abdullah Sungkar. 4 Q. Okay. And for the record, Ajengan, A-j-e-n-g-a-n, Mastooki, 5 M-a-s-t-o-o-k-i. 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Proceed. 8 A. Then after, Ustaz Abdullah Sungkar decided to leave the Darul 9 al-Islam and form his own group, which was better known as Jemaah 10 Islamiyah. 11 Q. And -- 12 THE COURT: Mr. Karas, Mr. Karas, we're having trouble 13 understanding. I don't know whether it's the witness's accent or 14 the slight background noise we're still getting, but you're going 15 to have to go over that, the last five or six questions again. 16 They're not coming through clearly. 17 MR. KARAS: Okay. 18 Q. Mr. Bafana, if you could, let's start from the beginning of 19 this topic. Are you familiar with a group known as Jemaah 20 Islamiyah? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And is it sometimes referred to as JI? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Can you tell us how it was that Jemaah Islamiyah became a 25 group? And please go slowly, and speak clearly and loudly. 414 1 A. Started with -- 2 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Object. 3 THE WITNESS: -- Darul al-Islam. 4 THE COURT: Excuse me, Mr. Karas, Mr. Karas, there's an 5 objection. 6 Go up to the lectern, Mr. Moussaoui. 7 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Yes. The -- Brother Bafana is not an 8 expert in Islamic group. He doesn't have allege (indecipherable) 9 to be part of Jemaah Islamiyah, so I don't know how he can know 10 about the structure of Jemaah Islamiyah, because he's not a 11 recognized expert on Islamic group. 12 THE COURT: All right. I think the, the objection is 13 well taken. You need to lay a foundation for the witness's 14 answer; that is, we need to know on what basis he can testify 15 first-hand about the beginning of this group. Lay a foundation, 16 Mr. Karas. 17 MR. KARAS: Okay, Your Honor. 18 Q. Mr. Bafana, are you a member of a group known as Jemaah 19 Islamiyah? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. When did you become a member of this group approximately? 22 A. Approximately 1987. 23 Q. All right. When you became a member of a group in 1987, what 24 was the name of the group? 25 A. Darul al-Islam. 415 1 Q. And did there come a time that Darul al-Islam became a 2 different group? 3 A. Yes. Not really different group. Split. 4 Q. Split. And did -- which group did you split with? 5 A. I went with Jemaah Islamiyah. 6 Q. Jemaah Islamiyah. And have you been a member of Jemaah 7 Islamiyah, Islamiyah ever since? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And that's approximately what year? 10 A. 1986. 11 Q. '86 or '96? 12 A. '96. '96. 13 Q. And have you served any leadership roles within Jemaah 14 Islamiyah? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Have you served on any committees within Jemaah Islamiyah? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Now, sir, if you could tell us what some of the goals of JI 19 are? 20 A. Implementing Shariah law. 21 Q. Shariah, S-h-a-r-i-a-h? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And can you tell us what Shariah law is? 24 A. Islamic law. 25 Q. And where is it that JI seeks to implement Shariah law? 416 1 A. The group has this objective in Indonesia. 2 Q. And how was it that the group has sought to obtain this goal 3 of Shariah law in Indonesia? 4 A. Through missionary work and jihad. 5 Q. Jihad, J-i-h-a-d? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And what is jihad? 8 A. I understand it is armed struggle. 9 Q. Armed struggle? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Now is there a leadership committee for JI? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. What is it called? 14 A. Markaz or Center Committee. 15 Q. Markaz, M-a-r-k-a-z? 16 A. Yes. 17 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Object. 18 THE COURT: There's an objection. Just a minute, 19 Mr. Karas. There's an objection. 20 What is the basis of the objection? 21 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Because the witness have clearly 22 indicated that he have no leadership role in Jemaah Islamiyah, so 23 I want to know what is the basis of his knowledge, because he say 24 that he, he was not a leader. So the information he's giving are 25 information that would be known only by leader people. So how can 417 1 he know all this if he was only a foot soldier? 2 THE COURT: I think you can do that on cross 3 examination. The witness has said he's been a member of the group 4 since its beginning and he's a committee chair. So the objection 5 is overruled. That's subject for cross examination, 6 Mr. Moussaoui. Thank you. Have a seat, please. 7 Go ahead, Mr. Karas. 8 MR. KARAS: Thank you, Your Honor. 9 Q. Mr. Bafana, how many people sit on the markaz? 10 A. About eight people. 11 Q. And does that include, include the leader of the group? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. What is the term for the leader of a group? 14 A. Amir. 15 Q. A-m-i-r? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Now did JI have other committees within its structure? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And are, are there regional committees for JI? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. What are they called? 22 A. They're called mantiqis. 23 Q. M-a-n-t-i-q-i? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. How many mantiqis are in JI? 418 1 A. I understand there are four. 2 Q. And how are they broken down? 3 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Objection. 4 THE COURT: Mr. Moussaoui, you're going to have to be on 5 your feet and at the lectern. 6 There's another objection. What is the basis of the 7 objection? 8 MR. MOUSSAOUI: The, the witness say he understand. 9 That doesn't mean anything that he say he understand. Where, 10 where come his understanding? 11 THE COURT: All right. 12 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Does he know or he understand or imagine 13 or hallucinate? 14 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Karas, I'm going to grant 15 that objection. Would you ask the witness again, we need to lay a 16 foundation for his answer about the committees. 17 BY MR. KARAS: 18 Q. Okay. Mr. Bafana, have you served as a member of any 19 mantiqi? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Which mantiqi were you a member of? 22 A. Mantiqi 1. 23 Q. And what region did Mantiqi 1 cover? 24 A. Covered Malaysia and Singapore. 25 Q. Were there other mantiqis within JI? 419 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. What regions did they cover? 3 A. They cover Indonesia, that's Mantiqi 2; Mindanao, Sabah, and 4 Sulawi is Mantiqi 3; and Australia is Mantiqi 4. 5 Q. And underneath, say, Mantiqi 1, the mantiqi you served on, 6 were there other area committees? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And what were they called? 9 A. They called wakalah. 10 Q. W-a-k-a-l-a-h? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And below the wakalah, are there any other organizations? 13 A. They have the fiah or cell. 14 Q. Fiah, f-i-a-h? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And what role does the mantiqi play within JI? 17 A. Mantiqi is to set the policy of the, the activities of the 18 group. 19 Q. Now, Mr. Bafana, turning to your role, in addition to what 20 we've talked about, taking you back to when you were part of Darul 21 al-Islam, what sorts of things did you do on behalf of Darul 22 al-Islam? And this, the time period, say, is the late 1980s until 23 approximately 1995. 24 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Objection. 25 THE WITNESS: I assisted them -- 420 1 THE COURT: Wait a minute. I'm sorry, there's an 2 objection. 3 MR. MOUSSAOUI: It's a leading question when he did 4 specify the dates, because he asked him what are his activity. 5 THE COURT: That's not sufficiently leading. The 6 objection is overruled. 7 You may answer the question. 8 THE WITNESS: Assisting the group in getting visas, 9 purchasing of tickets and for those going for military training. 10 THE COURT: Could he repeat -- could the witness -- I'm 11 sorry, could the witness repeat that answer? We're having trouble 12 understanding it. 13 THE WITNESS: Assisting the group members for tickets or 14 visa, purchasing of airplane tickets for their military training, 15 and also assisting them in the return if there were any problems 16 with immigration. 17 BY MR. KARAS: 18 Q. And how was it that you would assist the group members with 19 immigration problems? 20 A. If they were entering Malaysia and they are not Malaysian, 21 then they could be, like, short of money, so I will come as, you 22 know, as their relative to give them some money. 23 Q. As their relative? I'm sorry, as their relative? 24 A. Yeah, relatives. And also, if they come and Malaysia doesn't 25 allow that, then maybe I will try to direct them to other airports 421 1 by purchasing tickets for them so they can go to airport less 2 tight, tight in their security. 3 Q. In your efforts to assist group members in getting through 4 immigration, did you ever bribe or have others bribe immigration 5 officials? 6 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Objection. 7 THE WITNESS: Yes. 8 THE COURT: Mr. Moussaoui, what's the basis -- 9 BY MR. KARAS: 10 Q. And did you ever -- 11 THE COURT: Wait, wait. I'm sorry, Mr. Karas, there's 12 an objection. 13 MR. MOUSSAOUI: What is the basis for this question 14 about bribing an official? What is the foundation? 15 THE COURT: Well, that's not a -- can you hear the 16 objection, Mr. Karas? 17 MR. KARAS: All I heard was "foundation," Your Honor. 18 THE COURT: All right. Restate your objection, 19 Mr. Moussaoui. 20 MR. MOUSSAOUI: I was saying, I was saying what is the 21 foundation for you alleging that he bribed some certain person in 22 airport? 23 THE COURT: All right, I'm going to overrule that 24 objection. Again, that's not proper. This witness does have 25 sufficient foundation to answer that question. Whether it's 422 1 relevant or not to your case is an issue we will take up after the 2 testimony has been fully recorded. 3 MR. MOUSSAOUI: That's not what I was saying. 4 THE COURT: The objection is overruled. Go ahead, 5 Mr. Karas. 6 MR. KARAS: Thank you, Your Honor. 7 Q. Now after JI became a group, Mr. Bafana, from, say, 1996 8 until 1998, what roles did you play on behalf of JI? 9 A. I served in the economic section of Mantiqi 1. 10 Q. And from 1998 until 2001, what role did you play for JI? 11 A. I was appointed as treasurer of JI. 12 Q. And as your -- in your role as treasurer, what sorts of 13 things did you do for JI? 14 A. Raising of fund and also disbursement of fund. 15 Q. What were some things that you disbursed funds for? 16 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Wait. 17 THE COURT: Wait. I'm sorry, Mr. Bafana, could you 18 repeat that answer? We couldn't hear it. What was your role as 19 treasurer? What did you do? 20 THE WITNESS: Raising of fund. 21 THE COURT: Raising of funds? You raised money? 22 THE WITNESS: Yes. 23 THE COURT: All right. And what else? 24 THE WITNESS: For the groups. And also disbursement of 25 those funds. 423 1 THE COURT: Disbursement of funds, thank you. 2 BY MR. KARAS: 3 Q. And what were some things that you disbursed the funds for? 4 A. Is for our military, for the training purposes and for 5 operations and for some other missionary works. 6 Q. And some of the operations that you disbursed money for, did 7 that include the purchase of weapons? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And during this same time period from 1998 until 2001, did 10 you attend meetings with other JI members where operations were 11 discussed? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Did you yourself ever receive any military training? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. When was the first time you received such training? 16 A. 1991. 17 Q. Where did you receive this training? 18 A. In Afghanistan. 19 Q. Generally speaking, who provided this type of training in 20 Afghanistan? 21 A. The Arabs. 22 Q. And was there an amir among the Arab groups in Afghanistan 23 during this time? 24 A. I understand yes. 25 Q. And who did you understand the amir to be? 424 1 A. Ustaz Abdullah Azzam. 2 Q. Abdullah Azzam? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Ustaz Abdullah Azzam? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Now did you receive training in anywhere else in the world? 7 A. Also in Mindanao. 8 Q. Mindanao. And where is that? 9 A. Philippines. 10 Q. What kind of training did you receive? 11 A. Military training. 12 Q. And what kind of military training was it? 13 A. Like weapon training and some physical training. 14 THE COURT: We couldn't, we couldn't hear that answer. 15 Could you repeat the type of military training? 16 THE WITNESS: Weapon training and physical training. 17 MR. KARAS: Now I'd like to show the witness an exhibit. 18 It's marked for identification as Government Exhibit OL00140.120. 19 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Repeat. 20 THE COURT: Yes, could you repeat that, Mr. Karas? 21 MR. KARAS: Yes, Your Honor. OL00140.120. 22 THE COURT: Just one minute, please. 23 All right, that's a photograph, correct? 24 MR. KARAS: That's correct, Your Honor. 25 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Moussaoui, do you have that? 425 1 It looks like this (indicating) 2 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Show it to me. 3 THE COURT: It looks like this. 4 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Okay. 5 THE COURT: Mr. Moussaoui has it. All right. Go ahead, 6 ask your question. 7 BY MR. KARAS: 8 Q. Mr. Bafana, I'm showing you the exhibit marked for 9 identification as indicated earlier and ask you to take a look at 10 that. What is that? 11 A. A photograph of Yazid Sufaat. 12 Q. Of Yazid Sufaat? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And can you tell us whether or not Yazid Sufaat is a member 15 of JI? 16 A. Yes. 17 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, we offer this exhibit. 18 THE COURT: First of all, would you have the name of the 19 person identified spelled for the record? 20 MR. KARAS: Yes, Your Honor. Y-a-z-i-d S-u-f-a-a-t. 21 THE COURT: All right. Any objection to the exhibit? 22 Mr. Moussaoui, go up to the lectern, please. 23 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Yes. Objection, because the witness 24 says that Yazid Sufaat is a member of Jemaah Islamiyah. What is 25 the foundation of his knowledge? How does he know that? 426 1 THE COURT: All right, I'm going to sustain the 2 objection to this extent: Would the witness lay a foundation, A, 3 how he knows this person, and B, how does he know he's a member of 4 that group? 5 MR. KARAS: Okay. Your Honor, can I ask a few questions 6 in that, in that regard? 7 THE COURT: As long as you get to those two, yes. 8 MR. KARAS: Okay. 9 Q. Mr. Bafana, when did you first meet Yazid Sufaat, 10 approximately? 11 A. Sometime 1998. 12 Q. Where did you meet him? 13 A. In one of the religious classes. 14 Q. In one of the religious classes? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Did you ever attend JI meetings with Mr. Sufaat? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And did, did these meetings include meetings with other JI 19 members? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. What types of things were discussed at some of these 22 meetings? 23 A. Some of the operations. 24 Q. JI operations? 25 A. Yes. 427 1 MR. KARAS: Okay. Your Honor, at this point, we 2 re-offer the exhibit. 3 THE COURT: There certainly is sufficient foundation to 4 enable the witness to identify the photograph, and I think there's 5 also enough to link the person to JI, so the objection is 6 overruled, and the exhibit is in evidence. 7 BY MR. KARAS: 8 Q. Now, Mr. Bafana, what sorts of things -- I'm sorry, Your 9 Honor. 10 Mr. Bafana, what sort of things did Yazid Sufaat do on 11 behalf of JI? 12 A. He's involved in some of the operations and was also sent for 13 military training in Afghanistan. Also, he assist on receiving 14 guests for JI members and accommodation -- to provide them some 15 accommodations. 16 Q. And aside from hosting JI, JI members, did Mr. Sufaat host 17 any members of any other groups? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. What other groups? 20 A. Some of the sheikh. 21 Q. The sheikh? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Who do you mean by "the sheikh"? 24 A. Usama Bin Laden. 25 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Objection. 428 1 BY MR. KARAS: 2 Q. Now did Mr. Sufaat -- 3 THE COURT: Wait, wait. Mr. Karas, Mr. Karas, there's 4 an objection. 5 MR. KARAS: Okay. 6 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Yes. I object about the knowledge that 7 this person allege to have, because he allege that he was the 8 treasurer, okay? And now he's talking about detailed knowledge of 9 the activity of Yazid Sufaat. So it is not proper that -- he 10 didn't say how he can know what Yazid Sufaat is doing, because 11 he's only a treasurer. 12 THE COURT: All right. I think, Mr. Karas, the question 13 is not quite pointed, but I think the point Mr. Moussaoui is 14 making is there's not a sufficient foundation yet for that answer. 15 How does this witness know that the man was providing 16 accommodations for the sheikh? How does he know the sheikh? 17 Those questions have to be asked first. 18 BY MR. KARAS: 19 Q. Mr. Bafana, did you ever meet individuals from the sheikh's 20 group who came through Kuala Lumpur? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And so we're clear on the time period, just to say between 23 1999 and 2001, is that a fair time period? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And did any of these members from the sheikh's group that you 429 1 met ever stay at Yazid Sufaat's residence? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Now did Mr. Sufaat -- 4 THE COURT: Mr. Karas, Mr. Karas, how does the witness 5 know that? What's the basis for his knowledge? 6 BY MR. KARAS: 7 Q. Did you ever meet with any of these individuals, Mr. Bafana, 8 from the sheikh's group at Mr. Sufaat's apartment? 9 A. Yes. 10 THE COURT: All right, the objection is overruled. 11 BY MR. KARAS: 12 Q. Mr. Bafana, what was one of the names that Yazid Sufaat was 13 known by? 14 A. Ju. 15 Q. Ju, J-u? 16 A. Yes. 17 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, I, I now intend to show the 18 witness, these are also photographs, Government Exhibits OL00110, 19 111 -- actually, it's 110 through 113, and then picking up again 20 at 117 through 119. 21 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Can you show them to me? 22 THE COURT: Hold on just one second, please. What was 23 the first group of numbers, Mr. Karas? 24 MR. KARAS: OL00110 through 113. 25 THE COURT: All right, those are photographs of 430 1 buildings. 2 MR. KARAS: Correct. 3 THE COURT: Mr. Moussaoui, do you have those now? 4 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Yes, I do. 5 THE COURT: All right, Mr. Moussaoui has them. 6 And then the other ones, 117, you said, through 119? 7 MR. KARAS: Yes, Your Honor. 8 THE COURT: All right, that's fine. Go ahead, 9 Mr. Karas. 10 MR. KARAS: Thank you, Your Honor. 11 Q. Mr. Bafana, I'm showing you the exhibits as previously 12 identified and ask that you take a look at them. Do you recognize 13 those photographs, sir? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And how do you recognize those photographs? 16 A. I've been there several times. 17 Q. And what are those photographs of? 18 A. They're the complex of Yazid's apartment. 19 Q. And is, is this the apartment complex where Yazid Sufaat 20 hosted some of the members of the sheikh's group? 21 A. Yes. 22 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, we offer these exhibits. 23 THE COURT: Any objection? 24 (No response.) 25 THE COURT: There's no objection. They're in. 431 1 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, I next intend to show the 2 witness Government Exhibit OL00140.123. 3 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Can you repeat? 4 THE COURT: Could you repeat that, please? 5 MR. KARAS: Yes, Your Honor. OL00140.123. 6 THE COURT: All right. That's a photograph, correct? 7 MR. KARAS: Yes. 8 THE COURT: All right, Mr. Moussaoui, do you see it? 9 All right, he has it. 10 BY MR. KARAS: 11 Q. All right, Mr. Bafana, I'm showing you the exhibit previously 12 identified and ask that you take a look at it. Who is the person 13 depicted in that photograph? 14 A. Hambali. 15 Q. Hambali, H-a-m-b-a-l-i? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. For how many years have you known Hambali, approximately? 18 A. Seven to eight years. 19 Q. And have you attended JI meetings with Hambali? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And since JI was created, what roles has Hambali played on 22 behalf of JI? 23 A. The leader of Mantiqi 1. 24 Q. And is this the mantiqi that you were on? 25 A. Yes. 432 1 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, we offer this photograph. 2 THE COURT: Any objection? 3 (No response.) 4 THE COURT: No objection. It's in. 5 BY MR. KARAS: 6 Q. Now in addition to being the leader of Mantiqi 1, what other 7 roles did Hambali serve on behalf of JI? 8 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Objection. 9 THE WITNESS: As a contact person -- 10 THE COURT: Wait, wait just one second. 11 THE WITNESS: -- with other groups -- 12 THE COURT: Mr. Karas, just one second. There's an 13 objection. 14 MR. MOUSSAOUI: I object about his knowledge of the 15 activity of Hambali, because he says that Hambali was the leader, 16 and he have say himself that he was not in a leadership position 17 in JI, so he can he know all this? 18 THE COURT: All right, just rephrase the question as to 19 from his own personal knowledge, what does the witness know about 20 this man's activities. 21 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, may I just respond to that? 22 THE COURT: Yes, sir. 23 MR. KARAS: The objection? 24 THE COURT: Yes, sir. 25 MR. KARAS: The, the -- and we can read it back, but I 433 1 believe the question -- the answer was that Hambali was the leader 2 of Mantiqi 1, which is the same mantiqi that the witness was on 3 from the beginning. 4 THE COURT: Right. So the witness can testify as to 5 what he of his own personal knowledge because of that relationship 6 understands -- knows Hambali to have done. That's -- I just want 7 to make sure that's how the question is being phrased. 8 MR. KARAS: I can, I can clarify with one other 9 question. 10 THE COURT: Go ahead. 11 BY MR. KARAS: 12 Q. Mr. Bafana, did you attend mantiqi meetings with Hambali? 13 A. Yes. 14 THE COURT: All right, go ahead. 15 BY MR. KARAS: 16 Q. Now I'm sorry, Mr. Bafana, the question before was you were 17 talking about Hambali being the contact person with other groups, 18 and the question before was what other roles he served. Can you 19 describe what other groups Hambali was a contact person for? 20 A. The group that belonged to sheikh. 21 Q. The sheikh's group? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And just again so we're clear, is this Usama Bin Laden you're 24 referring to? 25 A. Yes. 434 1 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Objection. 2 THE COURT: There's an objection. There's an objection. 3 MR. MOUSSAOUI: There is no foundation how this person 4 know about this. 5 THE COURT: All right, would you lay a foundation? How 6 does the witness know that Mr. Hambali was doing -- was contacting 7 the sheikh's group? What is the basis for that knowledge? 8 BY MR. KARAS: 9 Q. Mr. Bafana, did you ever travel to Afghanistan with Hambali? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. When approximately did you do that? 12 A. 1999. 13 Q. And did you go with just Mr. Hambali, or did others go with 14 you? 15 A. Others. 16 Q. How many others? 17 A. Two others. 18 Q. Do you remember the names of the two others? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Who were the two others? 21 A. Zaini and Zamzulri. 22 Q. Zaini, Z-a-i-n-i, Zamzulri, Z-a-m-z-u-l-r-i? 23 A. -- z-u-r-i. 24 Q. And to get to Afghanistan, did you travel through Pakistan? 25 A. Yes. 435 1 Q. What was the purpose of the trip to Pakistan and Afghanistan 2 in early 1999? 3 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Objection. 4 THE COURT: What's -- wait a minute. What's the 5 basis -- wait, there's an objection, I'm sorry. 6 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Objection. It's a leading question. He 7 just asked him why did you go to Pakistan. He say about how he 8 traveled to Afghanistan. 9 THE COURT: Asking how did you travel to Afghanistan is 10 not a leading question. Overruled. Go ahead. 11 I think the witness had said -- 12 BY MR. KARAS: 13 Q. What was the purpose of the trip, Mr. Bafana? 14 A. To send Zaini and Zamzulri for military training. 15 Q. And was there a person -- 16 THE COURT: I'm sorry, can you repeat that? Mr. Karas, 17 have him repeat that answer. I couldn't hear it. 18 BY MR. KARAS: 19 Q. Repeat the answer. 20 A. To send Zaini and Zamzulri for military training. 21 Q. And who was it that was supposed to give this military 22 training to these two other individuals? 23 A. The Arabs. 24 Q. And was there a particular group that was supposed to give 25 this training? 436 1 A. The sheikh's group. 2 Q. And who was it in particular that Hambali was looking for 3 during this trip? 4 A. Mukhtar. 5 Q. And did you and Hambali eventually meet Mukhtar? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Where was it that you met him? 8 A. In Karachi. 9 Q. In Karachi? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Where is Karachi? What country? 12 A. In Pakistan. 13 Q. Did you meet Mukhtar? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Now after you came back from this trip, what, if any, 16 documents did Hambali show you? 17 A. He showed me some maps on the Middle East. 18 Q. And what were on those maps? 19 A. They are foreign military installations surrounding the 20 Middle East. 21 Q. And when you say "foreign," what countries are you referring 22 to? 23 A. America, some other western countries. 24 Q. Mr. Bafana, are you familiar with the concept of a fatwah? 25 A. Yes. 437 1 MR. KARAS: For the record, f-a-t-w-a-h. 2 Q. Mr. Bafana, what is a fatwah? 3 A. It's a religious ruling. 4 Q. What kind of religious ruling? 5 Let me ask, let me ask a different question. Can you 6 give us an example of a fatwah? 7 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Objection. 8 THE WITNESS: An example like -- 9 THE COURT: Wait, wait. There's an objection. Just a 10 minute. There's an objection. 11 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Mr. Bafana is not an Islam scholar to 12 know about exactly what is a fatwah or this kind of question, so 13 he can't say. 14 THE COURT: I'm going to overrule the objection. The 15 witness can testify as to what his understanding is of a fatwah. 16 BY MR. KARAS: 17 Q. So we're clear, Mr. Bafana, what religion do you practice? 18 A. Islam. 19 Q. And can you give us your understanding -- or based on your 20 understanding, can you give us an example of a fatwah? 21 A. For example, a drug. It was not mentioned in the Quran, so 22 the Islamic scholars have to give the meaning, whether is haram or 23 halal. 24 Q. Okay. And haram, h-a-r-a-m, halal, h-a-l-a-l? 25 A. Yes. 438 1 Q. And what's your understanding of when -- what something is 2 when it's haram? 3 A. It's prohibited. 4 Q. Did you ever hear of a fatwah issued by Usama Bin Laden? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And what fatwah in particular did you hear that was issued by 7 Usama Bin Laden? 8 A. To attack the American interests, whether it is military or 9 civilian. 10 Q. When approximately did you hear about this fatwah? 11 A. Sometime 1999. 12 Q. Was this before or after your trip to Afghanistan with 13 Hambali? 14 A. After. 15 Q. Did you and other members of JI discuss the sheikh's fatwah 16 regarding the attacking of American civilian and military 17 interests? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And what was the view of those that you discussed within JI 20 about the sheikh's fatwah? 21 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Objection. 22 THE COURT: There's an objection. 23 MR. MOUSSAOUI: I want to know what the foundation, 24 where did he hear this fatwah. Did he read it? Did he listen on 25 the radio? I want to know where he got this fatwah, which exactly 439 1 fatwah refer to, what is the text of this fatwah. 2 THE COURT: All right, I think -- did you hear the 3 question, Mr. Karas -- the objection? 4 MR. KARAS: I, I did hear, yes. 5 THE COURT: All right. Why don't you jot it down. I'm 6 told by the tech, tech people that we're supposed to break every 7 hour or so to, I guess, re-up the technology, and this has been an 8 hour, so I think we should take -- is a ten-minute recess 9 sufficient time? 10 MR. NOVAK: I think five is sufficient. 11 THE COURT: Five is enough? All right. Does either the 12 witness or Mr. Moussaoui need a break more than five minutes? No? 13 Not on this end. 14 How about over there? 15 MR. KARAS: Do you need a break? 16 THE COURT: Is five minutes enough time for your break, 17 Mr. Karas? 18 MR. KARAS: Yes, Your Honor. 19 THE COURT: All right. Then we'll go in recess for 20 about five minutes, and once the tech people tell me we're 21 re-sync'd, we'll start up again. And you have that question. 22 Start with that one, please. 23 All right, we'll recess for five minutes. 24 (Recess.) 25 Q. Yshun MRT, Y-s-h-u-n? 440 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And then the letters MRT? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Can you tell us what the Yshun MRT is? 5 A. It's a mass rapid transit station. 6 Q. Where? 7 A. In Singapore. 8 Q. And why did Hambali -- what did Hambali want you to do with 9 this videotape? 10 A. Is to write up a proposal on the attack on -- 11 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Objection. 12 THE WITNESS: -- U.S. military interests in Singapore. 13 THE COURT: There's an objection. 14 BY MR. KARAS: 15 Q. Did you write up such a -- 16 THE COURT: Wait, Mr. Karas, there's an objection. 17 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Where come this videotape? How does he 18 know -- where is -- where come this videotape, I mean, that he 19 talking about the videotape now and that Hambali ask him to 20 review. I want to know how, how he get this videotape. 21 THE COURT: That's not a proper objection. That can be 22 raised on cross examination. I'll overrule the objection. 23 But would you just make clear, did the witness -- 24 Mr. Bafana, did you see or review the videotape yourself? 25 THE WITNESS: After the videotape was handed to me, I 441 1 viewed the videotape myself. 2 THE COURT: All right. And what was on the videotape? 3 THE WITNESS: It was showing the, the Yshun MRT station 4 and a bus that supposed to provide transportation for U.S. 5 military personnel in Singapore. 6 THE COURT: All right. Go ahead, Mr. Karas. 7 BY MR. KARAS: 8 Q. And after you prepared the proposal, what did you do with it? 9 A. I sent it over to Afghanistan. 10 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Objection. 11 BY MR. KARAS: 12 Q. Did you show it to Hambali -- 13 THE COURT: Wait a minute. 14 BY MR. KARAS: 15 A. -- before you did that? 16 THE COURT: Wait a minute. There's an objection. 17 What is the basis for the objection? 18 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Which proposal we are talking about now? 19 THE COURT: All right. Would you identify the specific 20 proposal that was sent to Afghanistan? 21 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, may I -- Your Honor, may I back 22 up a little bit to make this clearer? 23 THE COURT: Yes. 24 BY MR. KARAS: 25 Q. Mr. Bafana, after you reviewed the videotape, what did you 442 1 do? 2 A. I went down to Singapore myself to identify what is shown in 3 the, the videotape. 4 Q. And after you went down to Singapore to review what was on 5 the videotape, what did you do? 6 A. I write up the proposal with another JI members. 7 Q. And roughly -- generally speaking, what was the proposal to 8 do? 9 A. Is to attack on U.S. military personnel. 10 Q. In where? 11 A. In Singapore. 12 MR. MOUSSAOUI: In where? 13 BY MR. KARAS: 14 Q. Did you show this proposal you prepared to Hambali? 15 THE COURT: Wait, Mr. Karas. Mr. Moussaoui did not hear 16 the answer. 17 BY MR. KARAS: 18 Q. If you could repeat the answer, sir? 19 A. To attack U.S. military personnel in Singapore. 20 THE COURT: Thank you. 21 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Objection. 22 BY MR. KARAS: 23 Q. And did you show the proposal you prepared to attack the U.S. 24 military in Singapore to Hambali? 25 THE COURT: Mr. Karas? 443 1 MR. KARAS: Yes. 2 THE COURT: There's another, there's another objection. 3 Just a minute. 4 MR. MOUSSAOUI: I want to know who helped him to write 5 this proposal. 6 THE COURT: That's not a basis for an objection. You 7 may ask that on cross examination. Objection overruled. 8 BY MR. KARAS: 9 Q. Did you show your proposal to Hambali? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. What, if anything, did he instruct you to do? 12 A. He asked to send it to Afghanistan. 13 Q. How did Hambali want the proposal sent to Afghanistan? 14 A. He asked me to send it over to Afghanistan. 15 Q. Was there anybody in particular you were supposed to show the 16 proposal to? 17 A. I supposed to contact Mukhtar. 18 Q. Mukhtar? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Did you go to Afghanistan? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Were you able to get in touch with Mukhtar? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Were you able to show the proposal to anybody in particular 25 in Afghanistan? 444 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Who did you show the proposal to? 3 A. To Abu Hafs. 4 Q. And where was this that you showed the proposal to Abu Hafs? 5 A. In Kandahar. 6 Q. And that is in Afghanistan? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And in addition to the proposal, did you show Abu Hafs the 9 videotape? 10 A. Yes. 11 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, I would like to show the witness 12 an exhibit marked as OL00140.48. 13 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Can you repeat? 14 THE COURT: Mr. Moussaoui needs you to repeat that. 15 MR. KARAS: Yes, Your Honor. OL00140.48. 16 THE COURT: Do you-all have that? 17 MR. NOVAK: Judge, for the record, now they're able to 18 put the exhibits on the screen. It was up there. 19 MR. KARAS: Mr. Novak, we couldn't hear you. 20 MR. NOVAK: The exhibit is being shown in a small corner 21 of the screen for everyone. 22 BY MR. KARAS: 23 Q. Mr. Bafana, do you recognize the person depicted in the 24 photograph previously identified? 25 A. Yes. 445 1 Q. And who is that a picture of? 2 A. Abu Hafs. 3 Q. And is that -- can you tell us whether or not that's the same 4 Abu Hafs to whom you showed your proposal on the videotape? 5 A. Yes. 6 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, we offer the exhibit. 7 THE COURT: Any objection? 8 (No response.) 9 THE COURT: All right, it's in. 10 MR. KARAS: Your Honor? 11 THE COURT: Yes, sir. The objection was -- there's no 12 objection. That exhibit is in. You may proceed. 13 MR. KARAS: All right, thank you. 14 Q. What happened after you and Abu Hafs reviewed the videotape 15 and the proposal? 16 A. He said it was good and he need more information, like the 17 frequency of -- he say he wanted more information on U.S. warship, 18 and he need to know the frequency and the number of personnel. 19 And also, he say that he need four things, that is, one, 20 personnel; two, money; three, explosive, TNT; and fourth is 21 transport. 22 And he say that will we have the personnel. And I said 23 I don't think we have the suicide bombers. So he said, "We will 24 provide the personnel. The money we will provide. Only you need 25 to look for the explosive, the TNT, and the transport." 446 1 Q. Did you return to Malaysia after your trip to Afghanistan and 2 your meeting with Abu Hafs? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And did you report to Hambali the results of your trip? 5 A. Yes. 6 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Objection. 7 BY MR. KARAS: 8 Q. Now, Mr. Bafana, did there come a time -- 9 THE COURT: Wait, wait, there's an -- 10 BY MR. KARAS. 11 Q. -- when you met a person identified -- 12 THE COURT: Mr. Karas, Mr. Karas, there's an objection. 13 MR. MOUSSAOUI: The witness didn't make clear when this 14 trip happened when he went to make the proposal, which date, which 15 year. 16 THE COURT: All right, could you get the witness to 17 identify the date, year, and if you can, the month or season when 18 he went to Afghanistan with the proposal? 19 BY MR. KARAS: 20 Q. Can you tell us approximately when it was that you went to 21 Afghanistan to deliver this proposal, Mr. Bafana? 22 A. Sometime during 1999. 23 Q. Now did there come a time, Mr. Bafana, that you met an 24 individual identified to you as John? 25 A. Yes. 447 1 Q. Who was it that introduced to you to John? 2 MR. MOUSSAOUI: I say objection. 3 THE COURT: Wait, there's an objection. 4 THE WITNESS: Zulkipli Marzooki. 5 THE COURT: Wait, there's an objection, Mr. Karas. 6 Yes, Mr. Moussaoui? 7 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Something like saying "sometime 1999" is 8 very too vague. 9 THE COURT: You can do that on cross examination. 10 That's not the basis for an objection. Overruled. 11 Go ahead, Mr. Karas. 12 MR. KARAS: Yes, Your Honor. 13 Q. The question is who was it that introduced you, Mr. Bafana, 14 to John? 15 A. Zulkipli Marzooki, a JI member. 16 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I couldn't hear that answer. 17 Could he repeat that and spell the name of the person? 18 BY MR. KARAS: 19 Q. Repeat the answer. 20 A. Zulkipli Marzooki, a JI member. 21 Q. Zulkipli, Z-u-l-k-i-p-l-i, Marzooki, M-a-r-z-o-o-k-i. 22 A. k-n. 23 Q. k-l? 24 A. k-n. The spelling is -- there's some -- but the sound is 25 okay. 448 1 Q. And you mentioned that he was a JI member? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. When approximately was it that you were introduced to John? 4 A. In the middle of 2000. 5 Q. And where was this? 6 A. In Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. 7 Q. What were you asked to do after you met John? 8 A. Zulkipli request me to provide some accommodation. 9 Q. And did you provide these accommodations? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And where was the first accommodation you found for John? 12 A. My house. 13 Q. And while John stayed at your house, did you have an 14 opportunity to talk to him? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And did you meet him on other occasions? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And can you describe John for us? 19 A. He was, he was bald, dark skin. His eyes are big, and thick 20 lips. 21 Q. And did he have any facial hair? 22 A. At the time, he don't have. 23 Q. He did not have? 24 A. Yeah. 25 Q. And was he taller or shorter than you? 449 1 A. Slightly taller. 2 Q. What language did you communicate to John in? 3 A. English. 4 Q. How was his English? 5 A. Understandable. 6 Q. Can you describe how it was that John referred to you as? 7 What name did he refer to you as? 8 A. He know me as Mahmoud, but he would normally call me Brother. 9 Q. Brother? 10 A. Yeah. 11 Q. And can you describe anything about John's speech that you 12 recall? 13 A. He has a very awkward, awkward style of speaking, like the 14 tongue sticking up. 15 THE COURT: Could you repeat -- 16 BY MR. KARAS: 17 Q. Could you give an example of what you mean by that? 18 THE COURT: I'm sorry, Mr. Karas, could he repeat that 19 last answer? 20 BY MR. KARAS: 21 Q. Can you repeat that last answer about the style of speech of 22 John? 23 A. A bit -- a little bit awkward on his pronunciation, where the 24 tongue was, I mean, sticking out. 25 Q. Can you give us an example of what you mean by his awkward 450 1 style of speech? 2 A. Well, like when he was referring to me as brother, he would 3 say "Brother," "Brother." 4 Q. Now around the time that John was staying at your house, did 5 you have a chance to have meals with him? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Where would you go to have these meals? 8 A. I went to one restaurant for dinner in Gombak, Malaysia. 9 Q. Can you spell that, please? 10 A. Gombak, G-o-m-b-a-k. Gombak. 11 Q. Do you remember the name of the restaurant? 12 A. It's Pha Pha Restaurant, P-h-a P-h-a. 13 Q. And how many nights did John stay at your house? 14 A. One night. 15 Q. Did you go out to dinner before you went to your house that 16 night? 17 A. After, after he went to my house, then I brought him out for 18 dinner. 19 Q. And did you return to your house that night? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Did you and John have a conversation back at your house? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. By the way, do you remember what John was wearing that night 24 at your house? 25 A. A T-shirt and pants. 451 1 Q. And where within your house did this conversation with John 2 take place? 3 A. In my dining area. 4 Q. What kinds of things are in your dining area? 5 A. Television and bookshelves. 6 Q. And did John make any comments about the books on your 7 bookshelves? 8 A. Yeah. He did say that some of the books are no good for 9 children. 10 Q. Did he say why? 11 A. He didn't like some of the books showing the evolution of men 12 from ape to human beings. 13 Q. And did John comment on any of the other books on your 14 bookshelf? 15 A. He did take some Islamic religious books. 16 Q. Do you remember any books in particular? 17 A. There's one book in English about Islam written by Abu 18 Hurairah. 19 Q. Abu Hurairah, A-b-u H-u-r-a-i-r-a-h? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And who is Abu Hurairah? 22 A. He's a relative of MILF. 23 Q. MILF? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. What is MILF? 452 1 A. Moro Islamic Liberation Front. 2 Q. What is that? 3 A. It is an Islamic movement in Mindanao. 4 MR. KARAS: For the record, Moro Islamic Liberation 5 Front, M-o-r-o, and then Islamic Liberation Front. 6 Q. Did you and John have any conversations about Islam or jihad 7 that night? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Can you tell us about that conversation? 10 A. He was saying about this, the jihad -- I mean, he was talking 11 about jihad, and I was saying that jihad would be, you know, in 12 Indonesia, and Malaysia will be the economic base. They donate 13 money to -- for jihad. 14 And John say that it more important that America be the, 15 more important that we bring down rather than other areas, and you 16 want to do business in Malaysia for this purpose, to finance the 17 jihad, that the government or the U.S. or the Malaysian government 18 knows what you-all are doing, and we should just either rob a bank 19 or do kidnapping for -- to get money rather than doing business in 20 Malaysia, which I feel like it's not appropriate, because if we do 21 that, then we are putting ourself in trouble in Malaysia as we are 22 being -- as we are looking for a safe place in Malaysia to do 23 business. 24 Q. And after you and John had this conversation regarding jihad, 25 what happened? 453 1 A. Then he told me that he need to say something and is not safe 2 to, to say in the house. 3 Q. So then what happened? 4 A. Then we went to a playground near my house. 5 Q. And where within the playground did you and John go? 6 A. We went to sit in one of the bench on the playground. 7 Q. What happened when you and John got to the bench on the 8 playground? 9 A. He told me that whether I can get some of the thing that he 10 mention, like aluminum nitrate with 90 percent nitrogen content 11 and aluminum -- I mean, ammonium nitrate with 90 percent nitrogen 12 content and aluminum powder and some other things. 13 Q. Aluminum powder? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And ammonium nitrate? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And what did you say when John asked you to inquire about 18 these things? 19 A. I said, "I'll try to inquire." 20 Q. And what happened after -- 21 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Objection. 22 THE COURT: Wait, wait. There's an objection, 23 Mr. Karas. Mr. Karas, there's an objection. 24 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Since the beginning, the Brother Bafana 25 didn't tell us how -- who introduce him to John. 454 1 THE COURT: Well, that's for cross examination. That's 2 too far down the road, Mr. Moussaoui. I'll overrule the 3 objection. 4 Go ahead, Mr. Karas. 5 MR. KARAS: Yes, Your Honor. 6 Q. After you had this conversation on the bench with John, what 7 happened? 8 A. Then we went back to our -- to my apartment. 9 Q. And did you have any other conversations with John that night 10 back in your apartment? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And where was this? 13 A. In the bedroom that he's supposed to sleep. 14 Q. By the way, was there anybody else in the house aside from 15 you and John? 16 A. No. 17 Q. And what was the conversation that you and John had in the 18 bedroom where he was sleeping? 19 A. He told me he had a dream. 20 Q. What did he say about the dream? 21 A. He dreamed offlying an airplane to hit the White House. 22 Q. And what else, if anything, did he say about his dream? 23 A. He also did mention that he also dreamed about his brother -- 24 I suppose he is dead -- in a golden house, something. 25 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Could you repeat that? 455 1 THE COURT: I'm sorry, could he repeat that last -- 2 BY MR. KARAS: 3 Q. And -- 4 THE COURT: Wait, Mr. Karas, we didn't hear that last 5 part of the answer. Could he repeat that, please? 6 THE WITNESS: He say that he -- 7 BY MR. KARAS: 8 Q. Speak loudly. 9 A. -- he has a brother. 10 I mean, he said that he also dream a brother, his 11 brother -- I suppose he's dead -- in a golden house. 12 MR. MOUSSAOUI: I don't understand that. 13 THE COURT: A brother in a golden house? 14 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Before. 15 THE WITNESS: Yeah, something, something to that effect. 16 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Before. 17 BY MR. KARAS: 18 Q. His brother in a golden house? 19 A. Yes. 20 THE COURT: Wait, wait. I'm sorry, Mr. Karas, could you 21 go back on the whole brother thing? That's not coming through 22 clearly. 23 MR. KARAS: Yes, Your Honor. I'll try to break it down. 24 THE COURT: Thank you. 25 BY MR. KARAS: 456 1 Q. Mr. Bafana, you indicated that, that John talked to you about 2 two dreams. 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. All right. The second dream that you mentioned, can you as 5 precisely as you can remember it state what John said the dream 6 was? 7 A. The dream was he dreamed of his brother in a golden house. 8 Q. Now with respect to the other dream about flying a plane into 9 the White House, did John indicate whether or not he'd shared his 10 dream with anybody else? 11 A. He told me that he informed the sheikh about his dream, about 12 his dream, and the sheikh said, "Go ahead." 13 Q. And did John ask you of anything in connection with his dream 14 to fly a plane into the White House? 15 A. He did ask me to assist him to, to send him to a flying club 16 in Kuala Lumpur. 17 Q. Did you take John to a flying club in Kuala Lumpur? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. When did you do that? 20 A. The next day. 21 Q. What flying club did you take John to? 22 A. A flying club in Sungai Besi, Kuala Lumpur. 23 Q. Sungai Besi, S-u-n-g-a-i, new word, B-e-s-i? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And where within Sungai Besi was the flying club? 457 1 A. It is within the Malaysian Air Force Base. 2 Q. How did you and John get to the confines of the Malaysian Air 3 Force Base? 4 A. We drove there. 5 Q. In whose car? 6 A. My car. 7 Q. What happened when you got to the, to the entrance of the Air 8 Force Base? 9 A. We had to stop before the guard post, and we had to surrender 10 our identity card. 11 Q. Did you do that? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Did you have to get out of your car to do that? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And who did you give your identity card to? 16 A. To the guard. 17 Q. And do you know what the guard did with the card or the 18 information on the card? 19 A. Yeah. He record down the information. 20 Q. Can you tell us whether your identity card has a national 21 identification number? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Do you recall your national identification number? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. What is it? 458 1 A. 620201-71-6011. 2 Q. And did your car have some kind of a license plate or 3 registration number? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And do you remember any of the numbers on that? 6 A. 7055. 7 Q. Did John get out of the car? 8 A. No. 9 Q. What happened after you signed in at the guard post? Where 10 did you go? 11 A. We drove in past the guard post about 300 meters, where the 12 flying club office there. 13 Q. And when you drove down, was it on your right or on your 14 left? 15 A. On the left. 16 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, at this time, I propose to show 17 to the witness the exhibits marked for identification as OL00125 18 through 129. 19 THE COURT: All right. 20 BY MR. KARAS: 21 Q. Okay. On the screen appears to be 125. That's 126. 127. 22 128. And 129. 23 Mr. Bafana, can you tell us what's depicted in those 24 pictures? 25 A. The flying club office. 459 1 Q. And is this the flying club you took John to that day? 2 A. Yes. 3 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, we offer these exhibits. 4 THE COURT: Any objection? 5 (No response.) 6 THE COURT: No objection. They're in. 7 BY MR. KARAS: 8 Q. Now what happened when you and John arrived at the flying 9 club? 10 A. We entered the office. 11 Q. And then what happened? 12 A. And there was an Indian lady, and John made the inquiries. 13 Q. And did there come a point you left the flying club? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Do you know whether or not John attended that flying club? 16 A. During that time? 17 Q. Did he ever indicate to you whether he was going to attend 18 that flying club? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Did he say why he was not going to attend that flying club? 21 A. It's expensive. 22 Q. Now did there, did there come a time that John moved from 23 your house? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And where did he go? 460 1 A. I sent him to Penang. 2 Q. Penang, P-e-n-a-n-g? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And is that another city in Malaysia? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Did you receive any contact from Hambali regarding John? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. What was, what was -- what did Hambali want regarding John? 9 A. He wanted to see John. 10 Q. Did you make arrangements for John to see Hambali? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Did that involve John coming back to Kuala Lumpur? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Did you ever receive any other contact from John after he 15 left your house? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. How did he contact you? 18 A. He called me. 19 Q. And what did he say when he called you? 20 A. He said that he want some money, about 10,000 U.S., as he has 21 managed to contact some brothers in Europe. 22 Q. Let me ask you this: Did, did you ever meet with John? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Was this after the telephone call? 25 A. Yes. 461 1 Q. Where did you meet John? 2 A. In the CyberCafe. 3 Q. And where -- in what area of Kuala Lumpur was the CyberCafe? 4 A. In Sungai Long, Kuala Lumpura. 5 Q. Sungai Long, S-u-n-g-a-i? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. L-o-n-g? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And how close was the CyberCafe to Yazid Sufaat's apartment? 10 A. It's across the road of Yazid's apartment complex. 11 Q. And can you describe the immediate area around which the 12 CyberCafe is located? 13 A. It was rows of shop houses. 14 (Fast-forward of tape.) 15 A. -- he say that he managed to get some brothers there to 16 assist him financially for his flight training in the U.S., as he 17 say that it could be cheaper in U.S. 18 Q. Did he ask anything else of you during this meeting? 19 A. He also did ask me for my company letterhead. 20 Q. For what purpose? 21 A. To appoint -- something like to appoint him as a 22 representative of the company for his travel convenience. 23 Q. Travel convenience? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Did he indicate if he made a similar request of anybody else? 462 1 A. He told me that he also had requested from Ju Yazid. 2 Q. "Ju" is a name for whom, I'm sorry? 3 A. Yazid. 4 Q. Yazid Sufaat? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And what did he say he requested of Ju? 7 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Objection. 8 THE WITNESS: A company letterhead. 9 THE COURT: Wait, wait, wait. There's an objection. 10 Go ahead. 11 MR. MOUSSAOUI: It was a leading question when he ask if 12 I make a request to somebody else. 13 THE COURT: No, that's not sufficiently leading. 14 Overruled. 15 Go ahead, Mr. Karas. 16 BY MR. KARAS: 17 Q. Mr. Bafana, what did you say to John after he made these 18 requests? 19 A. I say, "I will discuss this with Hambali." 20 Q. Did you discuss this with Hambali? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. What did he instruct you to do, if anything? 23 A. He told me to give John some 2,000, get $2,000. 24 Q. This is U.S. dollars? 25 A. I think it's Singapore dollar. 463 1 Q. And did you give John the $2,000? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Where did you give John the $2,000? 4 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Objection. 5 THE WITNESS: In the CyberCafe. 6 THE COURT: There's an objection. 7 MR. MOUSSAOUI: It is not clear if it is U.S. dollar or 8 Singapore dollar. 9 THE COURT: All right, could you make it clear as to 10 what kind of currency it was? 11 BY MR. KARAS: 12 Q. The question is was it Singapore dollars or U.S. dollars? 13 A. Singapore dollars. 14 Q. I'm sorry, now where was it that you gave John the $2,000? 15 A. In CyberCafe. 16 Q. Is this the same CyberCafe where you first met John? 17 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Objection. 18 THE WITNESS: Yes. 19 THE COURT: What's the objection? 20 BY MR. KARAS: 21 Q. By the way, how -- 22 THE COURT: Wait, Mr. Karas, there's an objection. 23 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Mr. Karas just refer as dollar. He 24 should refer to Singapore dollar. It's misleading. 25 THE COURT: All right. It's Singapore dollars; that's 464 1 clear for the record. The objection is, is very technical, but go 2 ahead, I'll grant it. 3 Mr. Karas, make sure you're clear it's Singapore 4 dollars. 5 MR. KARAS: I won't be referring to it again, Your 6 Honor. 7 Q. The -- this is the same CyberCafe you met John in before? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. By the way, before you -- how much time passed between when 10 you sent John to Penang and when you met him the first time at the 11 CyberCafe? 12 A. Sometime around three to four weeks. 13 Q. Now when you met John the second time at the CyberCafe, did 14 you do anything else while you were there? 15 A. He also say that we need to have a single e-mail account for 16 our -- 17 (Government Ex. 25 paused.) 18 THE COURT: It is 11:00 and the jury wants the morning 19 break. We need to stop at this point and we will take our 20 20-minute recess. Everyone stays put in the courtroom until the 21 counsel have left. Back in 20 minutes. 22 (Recess taken at 11:00 a.m. to 11:20 a.m.) 23 (Defendant and Jury in.) 24 THE COURT: We'll continue with the deposition. 25 "Q. By the way, before you -- how much time passed between when 465 1 you sent John to Penang and when you met him the first time at the 2 CyberCafe. 3 A. Sometime around three to four weeks. 4 Q. Now when you met John the second time at the CyberCafe, did 5 you do anything else while you were there? 6 A. He also say that we need to have a single e-mail account for 7 our communication purposes. 8 Q. And did you and John open an e-mail account? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Do you recall the name of the e-mail account? 11 A. Yes. Galaxy_2000@hotmail. 12 Q. And did you and John have a password for this account? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Do you recall what the password was? 15 A. I remember it was a space 123. 16 Q. Did John ever send you any e-mails over this account? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. What did he say in these e-mails? 19 A. He was asking for the doctor's whereabout. 20 Q. And what was your interpretation of who the doctor was? 21 A. My interpretation was the doctor was Hambali. 22 Q. Did you respond to this e-mail? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. What did you say in your response? 25 A. I say he was not around. 466 1 Q. Did you ever receive any other e-mails from John? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Did you ever have any other phone contact with John after 4 this? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Did you ever meet him in person after this? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Mr. Bafana, do you know what group, if any, John was 9 associated with? 10 A. The sheikh's group. 11 Q. And do you know where it was that he came from before he 12 arrived in Kuala Lumpur? 13 A. I'm not sure. 14 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Objection. 15 BY MR. KARAS: 16 Q. Where did you believe he arrived from? 17 THE COURT: Wait, wait, wait. Wait, wait, wait. 18 THE WITNESS: Afghanistan. 19 THE COURT: Wait, there's an objection. 20 MR. MOUSSAOUI: What is the basis of his knowledge? 21 THE COURT: Well, he said he was not sure. His answer 22 to that question was he was not sure. 23 MR. MOUSSAOUI: He say that he, he was knowing that I 24 was associated with the sheikh, he said. 25 THE COURT: Oh, all right. Mr. Karas, you need to lay a 467 1 foundation for that earlier question. 2 BY MR. KARAS: 3 Q. Mr. Bafana, the person who introduced you to John was 4 Zulkipli; is that correct? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Had Zulkipli hosted other people from the sheikh's group 7 before? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Had Yazid Sufaat hosted people from the sheikh's group 10 before? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Now, Mr. Bafana, do you recall meeting with special agents 13 from the Federal Bureau of Investigation? 14 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Objection. 15 THE COURT: There's an objection. Wait, there's an 16 objection. 17 MR. MOUSSAOUI: The fact that he -- Yazid have hosted 18 some people before and other person as well doesn't mean that he 19 knew that I was part of other people, the sheikh. 20 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Karas, do you want to 21 respond to that? 22 MR. KARAS: At this time, Your Honor, I don't want to 23 respond to it. We'll live with the witness's answers to the 24 latter two questions. 25 THE COURT: Well, we may wind up striking that down the 468 1 road. That's in my view an insufficient basis to draw the 2 conclusion that the defendant was connected with the sheikh. That 3 alone is insufficient. But it's on the record, and we'll proceed. 4 Go ahead. 5 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, just so we're clear, I don't 6 have any problem with striking the question about his opinion. I 7 just want to be clear that the questions regarding Zulkipli and 8 Yazid Sufaat are not objectionable. 9 THE COURT: I agree. 10 MR. KARAS: May I proceed, Your Honor? 11 THE COURT: Yes, sir. Go ahead, Mr. Karas. 12 MR. KARAS: Thank you. 13 Q. Now, Mr. Bafana, do you recall meeting with special agents 14 from the Federal Bureau of Investigation earlier this year? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And can you tell us whether or not they showed you a book of 17 photographs? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Of individuals? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Do you recall how many photographs were in the book? 22 A. I can't recall. 23 Q. Was it more than 100? 24 A. Possible. 25 Q. Was it more than 200? 469 1 A. I don't know that. 2 Q. And can you tell us whether or not you identified any of the 3 photographs as being that of John? 4 A. Yes. 5 MR. KARAS: Just one moment, Your Honor. 6 THE COURT: Yes, sir. 7 BY MR. KARAS: 8 Q. Now, Mr. Bafana, did there come a time that you attended -- 9 excuse me, did there come a time that you traveled to Manila in 10 the Philippines? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And when approximately was that? 13 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Objection. 14 THE WITNESS: Early December 2001. 15 BY MR. KARAS: 16 Q. And how long before this had John left? 17 THE COURT: Wait, there's an -- Mr. Karas, there's an 18 objection. 19 MR. MOUSSAOUI: I'd like to know which photograph he 20 identify as being John. 21 THE COURT: Well, he wasn't asked that question. That's 22 not the basis for an objection. Overruled. 23 Go ahead. 24 THE WITNESS: I would like to correct myself. It's not 25 2001. It's 2000. 470 1 BY MR. KARAS: 2 Q. Okay. So the trip to Manila was December of 2000? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Okay. And how long after John had left did you take this 5 trip? 6 A. Couple of months this was. 7 Q. Couple of months? 8 A. Yeah. 9 Q. And who, if anybody, did you go with to Manila? 10 A. With Hambali. 11 Q. Did Hambali ask you to bring anything on this trip? 12 A. He asked me to bring with me $3,600 U.S. 13 Q. What were you supposed to do with the $3,600 U.S. 14 A. To hand it over to Saad, other JI members. 15 Q. Did you visit any particular locations during this trip to 16 Manila? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. What locations? 19 A. The U.S. Embassy and Israeli Embassy. 20 Q. What was the purpose of visiting these locations? 21 A. To survey the area. 22 Q. For what purpose? 23 A. For operation. 24 Q. Did you and Hambali speak with Saad during this trip? 25 A. Yes. 471 1 Q. Did Saad mention any other locations in the Manilla area -- 2 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Objection. 3 THE COURT: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. 4 Mr. Karas, there's an objection. 5 MR. MOUSSAOUI: What is the basis of the knowledge that 6 he know that they were visiting these for operation? How did he 7 know this? 8 THE COURT: All right, did you hear the objection? It's 9 how does the -- how did Mr. Bafana know that was the reason they 10 were in Manila? 11 BY MR. KARAS: 12 Q. Mr. Bafana, did you and Hambali speak about a possible 13 operation against the American and Israeli Embassies in Manila 14 during this trip? 15 A. Yes. 16 THE COURT: All right, the objection is overruled. 17 BY MR. KARAS: 18 Q. Now did you also speak along with Hambali with Saad? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. S-a-a-d. 21 And did Saad mention any particular areas within Manila 22 during these conversations? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. What areas did he discuss? 25 A. He mentioned the LRT, the light rapid transit in metro 472 1 Manila, and some gas pipeline. 2 Q. Now after this trip to Manila, did Hambali ask you to do 3 anything? 4 A. He again asked me to send money to Saad. 5 Q. How much money did you send to Saad? 6 A. 20,000 Malaysian ringgits. 7 Q. Malaysian ringgits? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. R-i-n-g-g-i-t? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Did you send the ringgits to Saad? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Did you receive any telephone, telephone contact from Saad 14 thereafter? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. What did he say? 17 A. He said to inform the boss, "Job done." 18 Q. Who did you interpret "the boss" to be? 19 A. Hambali. 20 Q. And what was your interpretation of the job that was done? 21 A. Saad operation. 22 Q. When you say "operation," what do you mean by that? 23 A. I mean, to attack or bomb. 24 Q. Or bomb? 25 A. Yeah. 473 1 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Objection. 2 BY MR. KARAS: 3 Q. Now, Mr. Bafana, did there come a time an individual known to 4 you -- 5 THE COURT: Wait, wait, there's an objection. There's 6 an objection. Mr. Karas, there's an objection. 7 MR. MOUSSAOUI: What is the basis of the knowledge of 8 this person of having -- of the operation of Saad, saying that the 9 job is done and he know what he mean? 10 THE COURT: Would you make clear what Mr. Bafana means 11 by "the job is done"? What was his understanding of that message? 12 MR. MOUSSAOUI: And where he got it. 13 BY MR. KARAS: 14 Q. Mr. -- 15 THE COURT: Wait. All right, what is his understanding, 16 and why did he reach that understanding? What was the basis for 17 it? 18 BY MR. KARAS: 19 Q. Mr. Bafana, did you do any research after you received this 20 telephone call from Saad? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And did you learn about whether or not there were any 23 incidents in the metro Manila area? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. What did you learn? 474 1 A. The LRT station was bombed. 2 Q. And did you report this to Hambali? 3 A. Yes. 4 THE COURT: All right, objection overruled. That's 5 sufficient. 6 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Yeah, but I want to object, because 7 how -- because he make some research, I don't know where he make 8 this research. 9 THE COURT: You can do that on cross examination. The 10 objection is overruled. 11 Go on, Mr. Karas. 12 BY MR. KARAS: 13 Q. Mr. Bafana, did there come a time you met an individual known 14 as Bandar? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And where did you meet Bandar? What city? 17 A. Kuala Lumpur. 18 Q. And could you tell what nationality Bandar was or what part 19 of the world he was from? 20 A. He looks Arabic. 21 Q. Did you meet with and speak to Bandar? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. How many times did he visit Kuala Lumpur? 24 A. Twice. 25 Q. And the first time, when approximately was that visit? 475 1 A. October 2000. 2 Q. What was it that Bandar did when he was in Kuala Lumpur? 3 What was his purpose in coming to Kuala Lumpur? Did he tell you? 4 A. He did ask for some U.S. military targets in Singapore. 5 Q. Some, some information about U.S. military targets? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Did you give him this information? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And after you gave him this information -- 10 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Objection. 11 BY MR. KARAS: 12 Q. -- did Bandar leave? 13 THE COURT: Wait, there's an objection, Mr. Karas. 14 MR. MOUSSAOUI: The witness didn't establish how he got 15 military information about the U.S. in Singapore, where he got 16 this. 17 THE COURT: That's not a good objection. It's 18 overruled. 19 Go ahead. 20 BY MR. KARAS: 21 Q. After you gave Bandar the information he requested, did he 22 leave? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Did Bandar ever return? 25 A. Yes. 476 1 Q. Can you tell us whether or not he requested any additional 2 information? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. What kind of information did he request during his second 5 trip to Kuala Lumpur? 6 A. He wanted more information on the U.S. warship in Singapore 7 and also the costing. 8 Q. The costing of what? 9 A. Of the operation to attack the U.S. warship. 10 Q. And did you and others give Bandar the information he 11 requested? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Including the costing? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And what did Bandar do after you gave him this information? 16 A. He left. 17 Q. When approximately did he leave? 18 A. Sometime June 2001. 19 Q. Did you ever see Bandar again after June 2001? 20 A. No. 21 Q. After Bandar left, did you receive an e-mail from Hambali or 22 any other Internet communication? 23 A. I received -- I mean, I checked with Hambali. I believe that 24 Hambali did send message to the chat room. 25 Q. To the chat room? 477 1 A. Yeah. 2 Q. What was the message Hambali sent you? 3 A. Said there were two salesmen coming to see me. 4 Q. Two salesmen? 5 A. Two salesmen, yeah. 6 Q. What did you interpret that to mean? 7 A. The Arabs. 8 Q. Two Arabs were coming? 9 A. Yeah. 10 Q. From where? 11 A. From -- well, he's in Pakistan, Hambali. Were traveling from 12 Pakistan. 13 Q. And after you received this e-mail -- 14 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Objection. 15 BY MR. KARAS: 16 Q. -- did you meet -- 17 THE COURT: Wait, there's an objection. 18 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Where did he got it that they come from 19 Pakistan? How does he know this? What's the basis of his 20 knowledge? 21 THE COURT: Did you get the, did you get the objection, 22 Mr. Karas? 23 MR. KARAS: I did, Your Honor. I think the witness 24 testified that the basis for his conclusion was because Hambali 25 was in Pakistan, he assumed they were coming from Pakistan. 478 1 THE COURT: All right. But it's an assumption. 2 Mr. Bafana, do you know for a fact where these people 3 came from? 4 THE WITNESS: No. 5 THE COURT: No, all right. 6 BY MR. KARAS: 7 Q. Mr. Bafana, after you received this chat room message from 8 Hambali, did you meet two Arab individuals? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Do you recall any of their names? 11 A. One of them we call Ahmed. 12 Q. Would you spell that, please? 13 A. A-h-m-a-d or -m-e-d. 14 Q. Okay. And do you remember the name of the other individual? 15 A. No. 16 Q. And Ahmed, can you describe him? 17 A. He's quite tall. He was of fair skin. His face was a bit 18 long and has an Arab look. 19 Q. Do you recall what passport he was carrying, what nationality 20 the passport was? 21 A. Canadian. 22 Q. How many times did you meet with Ahmed and the other 23 individual? 24 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Objection. 25 THE WITNESS: Twice. 479 1 THE COURT: Wait, there's an objection. 2 BY MR. KARAS: 3 Q. During the first -- 4 THE COURT: Wait, there's an objection, Mr. Karas. 5 MR. MOUSSAOUI: The witness didn't say how can he know 6 the passport of this person? What is -- did he show him the 7 passport? Did he went to a tourist office? 8 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Bafana, how did you see 9 the -- how did you know the passport of Ahmed? 10 THE WITNESS: He told me he's using a Canadian passport. 11 THE COURT: All right, objection overruled. 12 BY MR. KARAS: 13 Q. Now, Mr. Bafana, you say you met with Ahmed and the other 14 person twice? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And during the first meeting, what happened? 17 A. He told me that he wanted to visit Manila, Philippines. 18 Q. What did you say? 19 A. I told him that I'll arrange for somebody to meet him there. 20 Q. Did you make those arrangements? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And did you meet with Ahmed a second time? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Can you tell us what happened during that meeting? 25 A. I asked him about how his trip to Manila. He say it was all 480 1 right. And then he say that it was difficult for to attack on 2 U.S. Embassy in Manila, but I told him that there was a synagogue, 3 but he said that it was no more there. 4 Q. I'm sorry, if you could speak loudly, and maybe we can break 5 this up. Ahmed told you what about what he saw in Manila? 6 A. He said that it was difficult to, to attack on U.S. Embassy 7 in Manila. 8 Q. And what did you say in response? 9 A. I said there was an Israeli synagogue in Manila. 10 Q. What did Ahmed say? 11 A. He said it was no more there. 12 Q. So what did you tell him, if anything? 13 A. After that, I mentioned him to go over to Singapore. 14 Q. To do what? 15 A. For operation. 16 Q. Did you mention any targets or give him any ideas of any 17 targets? 18 A. I mentioned to him that there's a U.S. warship in Changi 19 Base. 20 Q. Changi, C-h-a-n-g-i? 21 A. Yes. And others -- and he can look for other U.S. interests 22 in Singapore. 23 Q. Did you ever meet with Ahmed again after that second meeting? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Why not? 481 1 A. I told him during that second meeting that the Malaysian 2 Special Branch is after me, so it's best for security reason that 3 we are not to meet again. 4 Q. And after this second meeting with Ahmed, did you meet 5 with -- 6 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Objection. 7 THE COURT: Wait, there's an objection, Mr. Karas. 8 MR. MOUSSAOUI: How does the witness know that the 9 Special Branch were after him? What is the basis of his 10 knowledge? Did he receive a letter from them? 11 THE COURT: All right, the objection is the foundation 12 for the witness believing that the police were looking at him. 13 Mr. Bafana -- 14 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, we're not offering that for the 15 truth. It's just his perception as to why he didn't want to meet 16 with Ahmed anymore. 17 THE COURT: All right. Then the objection is overruled. 18 BY MR. KARAS: 19 Q. Now after the second meeting with Ahmed, did you meet with 20 Hambali again? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And where did you meet with Hambali? 23 A. Again? 24 Q. Where did you meet with Hambali? 25 A. In southern Thailand. 482 1 Q. And what happened during this meeting? 2 A. He told me about his visit -- I mean, about his stay in 3 Afghanistan. 4 Q. Did he tell you about anybody he met with in Afghanistan? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Who did he meet with? 7 A. He met with Abu Hafs. 8 Q. And what did he say Abu Hafs's instructions were? 9 A. Abu Hafs told him to carry out the attack on a small scale 10 and to be really fast. 11 Q. And did Hambali tell you anything else about Abu Hafs? 12 A. He said he was -- Abu Hafs was killed in Kandahar. 13 Q. Now, Mr. Bafana, earlier you testified that you were asked to 14 inquire about the availability of ammonium nitrate. Do you recall 15 that? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Can you tell us based on your work within JI what kind of use 18 ammonium nitrate has or could have? 19 A. To make explosive. 20 Q. Now after the meeting with Hambali in Thailand, did you visit 21 Singapore? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. What happened when you visited Singapore? 24 A. I was arrested. 25 MR. KARAS: May I just have one moment, Your Honor? 483 1 THE COURT: Yes, sir. 2 MR. KARAS: We may be done. 3 Q. After John mentioned to you his interest in ammonium nitrate 4 and aluminum powder, did you talk about that any further after the 5 meeting on the bench? 6 A. With John? 7 Q. Yes. 8 A. No. 9 Q. Did you talk about it when you went back into the house after 10 you were out on the playground? 11 A. Oh, he did write down his requirement, his request. 12 Q. And what did you do with that list? 13 A. I gave it to one of JI members to inquire about it. 14 MR. KARAS: Nothing further, Your Honor. 15 THE COURT: All right, what we're going to do now is I'm 16 going to call a 20-minute recess so Mr. Moussaoui has a little 17 extra time to look at the documents that were given to him this 18 morning and allow the tech people again to re-sync everything. 19 We'll reconvene at 9:00 our time, all right, Mr. Karas? 20 MR. KARAS: Yes, Your Honor. 21 THE COURT: All right. 22 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, we are here, and the witness has 23 just been brought back in the room. 24 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Bafana, you are now going to 25 be asked questions by Mr. Moussaoui. 484 1 All right, Mr. Moussaoui, go up to the lectern, please. 2 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Yes. One second, please. 3 Where's the micro? 4 THE COURT: I'm sorry? 5 MR. MOUSSAOUI: There's no micro? 6 MR. NOVAK: Oh, they put a, they put a flat microphone 7 here that picks up better, and it's working -- they can hear us 8 better now. 9 THE COURT: All right. 10 MR. MOUSSAOUI: All right. 11 MR. NOVAK: Sorry. 12 CROSS EXAMINATION 13 BY MR. MOUSSAOUI: 14 Q. As-salamu alaikum. 15 A. Wa alaikum as-salam. 16 Q. First, I would like to inquire about your condition, because 17 this testimony is a bit unusual. 18 THE COURT: Mr. Moussaoui -- 19 MR. KARAS: Objection, Your Honor. 20 THE COURT: Is it Mr. Karas or Mr. Spencer who's 21 objecting? 22 MR. KARAS: It's Mr. Karas, Your Honor. 23 THE COURT: All right, you're going to do all the 24 objecting then. All right. And the basis for the objection is? 25 MR. MOUSSAOUI: I didn't finish. 485 1 THE COURT: Wait. 2 What's the objection, Mr. Karas? 3 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, I object, I object to the 4 commentary of "this is unusual." 5 THE COURT: All right. I am going to sustain the 6 objection. Mr. Moussaoui, questions cannot be speeches. Just ask 7 the witness the question. Go ahead. 8 BY MR. MOUSSAOUI: 9 Q. I want to know exactly what are your condition, if you have a 10 lawyer, and what is the nature of the agreement you have entered 11 with the United States, because it seems to me -- 12 THE COURT: All right, that's a question. So do you 13 understand the question, Mr. Bafana? 14 THE WITNESS: I don't understand. 15 THE COURT: All right. Go ahead. Answer, please. 16 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, I believe the witness said he 17 does not understand. 18 THE COURT: Oh. Do you have the assistance of an 19 attorney? Is an attorney advising you? 20 BY MR. MOUSSAOUI: 21 Q. Have you got a lawyer? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Did you have access to a lawyer at any point since your 24 arrest? 25 A. Yes. 486 1 Q. So why do you say that you don't have a lawyer? 2 A. I thought it's now. 3 Q. Can you repeat, please? 4 A. I thought, I thought you say whether I have a lawyer now. 5 Q. So have you -- where have you been arrested? 6 A. Again? 7 Q. Where have you been arrested? 8 A. In Singapore. 9 Q. On which date? 10 A. 16th of December, 2001. 11 Q. What was reason for your arrest? 12 A. Can you repeat the question, please? 13 Q. What was the reason for your arrest? 14 A. An Internal Security Act. 15 Q. That's under which law you have been arrested, but what was 16 the reason? What -- did they give you any reason why they 17 arrested you? 18 A. Because of the planned attack on U.S. military base in 19 Singapore. 20 Q. Can you repeat, please? 21 THE COURT: Sir, can you speak up closer to the 22 microphone? We're having trouble hearing you here. 23 THE WITNESS: Planned attack on the U.S. military in 24 Singapore. 25 MR. MOUSSAOUI: I can't understand. 487 1 THE COURT: Just one minute. We're going to try to turn 2 it up. 3 Would you repeat that answer again, sir? 4 THE WITNESS: Planned attack on, planned attack on U.S. 5 military in Singapore. 6 BY MR. MOUSSAOUI: 7 Q. Plan attack? 8 THE COURT: Mr. Karas, we're having trouble hearing the 9 witness. His voice is very low. Is there anything you can do on 10 your end? We're working on it here. 11 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, can you understand me okay? 12 THE COURT: You're in the background now, too. For some 13 reason, over the break, the sound quality went downhill a bit. 14 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, the, the mic -- there are two 15 microphones within about 12 to 18 inches of the witness. We're 16 checking the equipment again. 17 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Bafana, would you try to 18 explain -- now I'm getting an echo. Are you hearing the echo over 19 there, Mr. Karas? 20 MR. KARAS: We are hearing it, Your Honor, yes. Maybe 21 if the witness could give the answer one more time loudly? 22 THE COURT: Yeah. You're becoming more clear, 23 Mr. Karas, but now we have a very distinct echo. 24 All right, Mr. Bafana, would you try again and answer 25 the question as to what was the activity that led to your arrest? 488 1 BY MR. MOUSSAOUI: 2 Q. Specifically, what was the reason given to you? 3 THE COURT: All right, what was the reason the Singapore 4 officials gave to you for your being arrested? 5 THE WITNESS: On the planned attack in Singapore of 6 U.S. military in Singapore. 7 THE COURT: All right. So for your planning an attack 8 on U.S. installation in Singapore? 9 THE WITNESS: Yes. 10 THE COURT: All right. 11 BY MR. MOUSSAOUI: 12 Q. Which -- were you charged with anything? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. It was my understanding according to the document I received 15 that you were not charged actually with any crime at the moment, 16 so can you clarify -- 17 THE COURT: That's a -- Mr. Moussaoui, that's a speech. 18 Just ask -- 19 MR. KARAS: Objection, Your Honor. 20 THE COURT: That's right. You can't make a speech in a 21 question during a trial. Just ask the question. 22 BY MR. MOUSSAOUI: 23 Q. My question is clear: You -- have you been charged by the 24 Singapore authority at any point in time? 25 A. Yes. 489 1 Q. And what was the specific charge by the letter of law? 2 A. An Internal Security Act. 3 THE COURT: You're charged with a violation of the 4 Internal Security Act; is that your answer? 5 THE WITNESS: Yes. 6 BY MR. MOUSSAOUI: 7 Q. Did you get a lawyer following this indictment? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Can you tell us why? 10 MR. KARAS: Objection, Your Honor. 11 THE COURT: What's the basis for the objection, 12 Mr. Karas? 13 MR. KARAS: Competence to answer the question. 14 THE COURT: Well, no, I think a person can explain why 15 he has a lawyer or doesn't have a lawyer, and I think it's a 16 relevant area of cross examination. Objection overruled. 17 MR. KARAS: I apologize, Your Honor. I apologize, I 18 thought the question was whether or not he received the law under 19 which he was arrested. 20 THE COURT: No, no, no. I'm sorry, it was whether or 21 not he had retained an attorney or had an attorney, and Mr. -- so 22 that's what the question is. Why the witness -- 23 MR. KARAS: I withdraw the objection. 24 THE COURT: Why the witness did not get an attorney 25 after he was charged. 490 1 Mr. Bafana? Mr. Bafana, did you hire a lawyer to help 2 you with the charges in Singapore? 3 THE WITNESS: No. 4 THE COURT: Has the court appointed a lawyer to help 5 you in defending yourself against those charges? 6 THE WITNESS: No. 7 BY MR. MOUSSAOUI: 8 Q. Why? 9 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, objection to why the court has 10 not appointed a lawyer. 11 THE COURT: Right, but -- I'm going to sustain that part 12 of the objection, but Mr. Bafana can explain why he has not hired 13 an attorney. 14 Why did you not hire an attorney to help you? 15 Mr. Bafana, why have you not hired a lawyer to help you with your 16 case? 17 Mr. Karas, am I -- can you hear me? 18 MR. KARAS: Yes, Your Honor, we can hear you. I think 19 the witness is just thinking about his answer. 20 THE COURT: All right. 21 THE WITNESS: I refused a lawyer. 22 BY MR. MOUSSAOUI: 23 Q. Why did you refuse a lawyer? That's the same question. 24 A. Well, they asked me whether I need -- I want to be 25 represented by a lawyer. I say no. 491 1 Q. Why? 2 A. I don't see the necessary -- the necessity. 3 Q. So tell me, you are held under internal security law of 4 Singapore, and you do not feel it's necessary to get a lawyer? 5 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, objection. Asked and answered. 6 THE COURT: Sustained. We're not going to repeat the 7 question if it's been answered. 8 BY MR. MOUSSAOUI: 9 Q. Have you been led to believe that your cooperation will 10 enable you to get favorable treatment? 11 A. Will you repeat the question, please? 12 Q. Have you been led to believe that this testimony or any 13 cooperation you are doing with the United States will give you 14 favorable treatment as to the charge in the Singapore law -- 15 court? 16 A. No. 17 Q. So tell me if I'm correct: You are cooperating here for -- 18 out of your free will, because you like this? 19 A. Can you repeat the question, please? 20 Q. You are saying that you, you just cooperate with the United 21 States because you like to help the United States? 22 A. No. 23 Q. So why are you cooperating with the United States? What are 24 the reason? 25 A. I was told by the, I was told by the Singapore Internal 492 1 Security Department to give full cooperation to this 2 investigation, and also, I believe that the -- I don't believe the 3 killing of innocent, innocent and civilians is in accordance with 4 Islam. 5 Q. Sorry? Sorry? 6 THE COURT: Mr. Moussaoui, don't interrupt the witness 7 when he's answering the question. 8 MR. MOUSSAOUI: I can't hear what he say. 9 THE COURT: All right. Can you repeat your answer, 10 please? And again, for some reason, you're not as strong as you 11 were before. If you could just speak up, please? 12 THE WITNESS: I was told by the Internal Security 13 Department of Singapore to give full cooperation on this 14 investigation, and also, I believe that the killing of innocent 15 and civilian life isn't accordant with Islam. That's why I am 16 giving my full cooperation is to stop this killing, because now I 17 believe it is wrong that we are to kill the civilian and, and 18 those in noncombatant personnel. 19 BY MR. MOUSSAOUI: 20 Q. So you just say that you have been told by the Internal 21 Security Department of Singapore to cooperate so -- 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Can you tell us exactly what they say to you? 24 A. They told me to give full cooperation on this investigation. 25 Q. Was it a threat to you? 493 1 A. No threat. 2 Q. Did they make any promise to you that if you were doing full 3 cooperation with the United States, you will receive preferential 4 treatment in your case in Singapore? 5 A. No. 6 Q. You talk about killing civilians. Which -- what you are -- 7 what are you talking about exactly? 8 A. I mean attacking on the civilian personnel. 9 Q. Can you tell us where? What specifically -- 10 A. Anywhere. 11 Q. Anywhere. So you are under the impression that you are 12 participating in the prosecution of somebody who kills civilians? 13 That's your understanding? 14 A. My understanding is to say the truth, and I -- it doesn't 15 matter whether it will hurt anybody. 16 Q. You said just before that you were participating because 17 Internal Security told you to participate and because you do not 18 believe in the killing of civilians; that's correct? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. So you are under the impression that you are contributing, 21 you are participating in the, in the prosecution of somebody who 22 have actually killed some civilians? You are convinced about 23 this? 24 MR. KARAS: Objection to "participating in the 25 prosecution," Your Honor. 494 1 THE COURT: Sustained. You must rephrase the question 2 or ask a different one, Mr. Moussaoui. 3 BY MR. MOUSSAOUI: 4 Q. You are collaborating into the prosecution of somebody you 5 believe have killed some civilians; is it correct? 6 A. I don't know what he's saying. 7 Q. You can take your time. Think about it. 8 THE COURT: Mr. Moussaoui, we're going to move on. What 9 the witness's opinion is of this case is absolutely irrelevant and 10 frankly -- 11 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Yes. 12 THE COURT: -- doesn't help your case. 13 Move on to another question. You've asked this one. 14 MR. MOUSSAOUI: It is very relevant, because this person 15 -- 16 THE COURT: Mr. Moussaoui -- 17 MR. MOUSSAOUI: -- is absolutely convinced that -- 18 THE COURT: Mr. Moussaoui, I've ruled. You go on to a 19 new question. 20 BY MR. MOUSSAOUI: 21 Q. So you -- at what time have you started to get involved into 22 Islamic activity? 23 A. Can you repeat, please? 24 Q. At what time in the past have you started to be involved in 25 Islamic activity? 495 1 A. Many years ago. 2 Q. Can you be more precise? 3 A. Can you be more precise on what activities? 4 Q. Your Islamic activities. 5 THE COURT: Well, wait, let's make it clear. Islam is a 6 religion. Were you born a member of the Islamic religion? 7 THE WITNESS: I was born a Muslim. 8 THE COURT: All right. So you need to be more precise 9 with your question, Mr. Moussaoui. The man was born a Muslim. 10 BY MR. MOUSSAOUI: 11 Q. So at what time have you participate in a group -- at what 12 time did you start to participate in Jemaah, in the group? 13 A. 1987. 14 Q. What was the name of this group? 15 A. Darul al-Islam. 16 Q. Can you tell us how did you get to know this Darul al-Islam? 17 A. Through friends. 18 Q. Can you be more specific? 19 A. Through my friends. 20 Q. What were your activity when you started to get to know Darul 21 al-Islam? 22 A. Attending religious classes and to assist them in missionary 23 work. 24 Q. No, I'm talking were you student? Were you employed? Were 25 you unemployed? 496 1 A. Student. You mean what -- can you repeat the question, 2 please? 3 Q. I was saying what were your activity when you get involved 4 with Darul al-Islam? Were you a student or employed or 5 unemployed? 6 A. Employed. 7 Q. What your -- what was your age? 8 A. 25 years old. 9 Q. 25. So when you got involved with Darul al-Islam, what was 10 your understanding of the purpose of Darul al-Islam? Were, were 11 they preaching? Were, were they a jihad group? Were -- what kind 12 of an understanding you have that was the activity of Darul 13 al-Islam? 14 A. Dawah and implementation of the Shariah law. 15 Q. Can you explain what your understanding of dawah? 16 A. Dawah, to conduct military -- to conduct Islamic preaching 17 to, to the people. 18 Q. Thank you. What about implementation of Shariah? What do 19 you mean? 20 A. The Islamic rule. 21 Q. Can you expand? 22 A. To implement the law of Islam in the country. 23 Q. You talk about a political program? 24 A. You may say that. 25 Q. You, you are saying that they were politically involved? 497 1 A. There is a group objective of -- there was a group objective 2 of implementing Islamic law. 3 THE COURT: You're fading out again, Mr. Bafana. Please 4 keep close to the microphone. 5 THE WITNESS: There was a group objective. 6 BY MR. MOUSSAOUI: 7 Q. So you are saying that Darul dar Islam -- Darul al-Islam, 8 sorry -- had a political agenda in Malaysia; is it correct? 9 MR. KARAS: Objection, Your Honor, to the, to the 10 wording of the question. 11 THE COURT: Well, defendant can lead on cross 12 examination. You can correct it on direct. I'll overrule the 13 objection. 14 You may answer that question. 15 THE WITNESS: In that time, during the -- Darul al-Islam 16 is to implement Shariah law in Indonesia. 17 BY MR. MOUSSAOUI: 18 Q. In Indonesia you're saying? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. So you are taking part in a group who is located in Malaysia; 21 is it correct? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And you are concerned with the politic of Indonesia; is it 24 correct? 25 A. The group are concerned. 498 1 Q. And you as a member of the group, you might share the opinion 2 of the group; is it correct? 3 A. Exactly. Exactly. 4 Q. So you living in Malaysia, and you are concerned about what's 5 happened in Indonesia; is it correct? 6 MR. KARAS: Objection. Asked and answered. 7 THE COURT: I'm going to permit it. Overruled. 8 You may answer the question. 9 THE WITNESS: You may say that. 10 BY MR. MOUSSAOUI: 11 Q. So you say that at some point, you went to Afghanistan; is it 12 correct? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Can you recall at what time you went -- did you go to 15 Afghanistan? 16 A. The first time was in 1991. 17 Q. Did you go alone? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Can you recall who was with you? 20 A. I went with a Malaysian JI member named Suhami and Jamsari. 21 Q. Do you recall where you, you took off and where you landed to 22 go to Afghanistan? 23 A. From Kuala Lumpur to Karachi. 24 Q. Do you recall which language they speak in Karachi? 25 A. Urdu. 499 1 Q. Are you sure? 2 MR. KARAS: Objection. 3 THE COURT: Sustained. That's not relevant, what 4 language anybody speaks in Karachi. 5 MR. MOUSSAOUI: It is relevant, because they speak 6 English. 7 THE COURT: I have sustained the objection. Move on. 8 BY MR. MOUSSAOUI: 9 Q. Where did you stay in Karachi? 10 MR. KARAS: Objection. Relevance, Your Honor. 11 THE COURT: What's the relevance of that question? 12 MR. MOUSSAOUI: The relevance is about the veracity of 13 the testimony to the fact that whether or not this person went to 14 Afghanistan. By establishing that if he really went from step to 15 step from Karachi and knowing how difficult it is to go to -- how 16 difficult it is to go to Afghanistan and to come back, according 17 to his testimony, in less than two weeks, it is not possible. So 18 I want to establish clearly in the mind of, of the jury, okay, 19 that it's inaccurate. 20 And there will be other witnesses -- 21 THE COURT: All right. 22 MR. MOUSSAOUI: -- who will explain that this short 23 amount of time is impossible to have undergone the travel that 24 he's describing, just impossible, physically impossible. 25 THE COURT: That's way too long an explanation, but 500 1 I'll, I'll -- do you remember where you stayed in Karachi? 2 THE WITNESS: In a friend's house. 3 THE COURT: In a friend's house? All right. 4 THE WITNESS: Yes. 5 BY MR. MOUSSAOUI: 6 Q. Where did you know this friend? 7 MR. KARAS: Objection, Your Honor. 8 THE COURT: Yeah, that's now getting into a level of 9 detail that's just not relevant. Move on. Sustained. I'm 10 over- -- the objection is sustained. 11 BY MR. MOUSSAOUI: 12 Q. So you, you were in Karachi. So how long it took you to go 13 to Karachi to -- how did you go from Karachi to Afghanistan? 14 A. In 1991? 15 Q. Yes. 16 A. From Karachi, I took a flight to Peshawar. From Peshawar, I 17 went to a place called Babi, where JI representative houses in 18 Babi, the border of Afghanistan. 19 Q. Do you recall how long it took you to do this? 20 A. To reach Babi? 21 Q. Yes. 22 A. One day. 23 Q. And when you were in this place, what did you do? 24 A. I went inside into Afghanistan and have some military 25 training there in Jalalabad. 501 1 Q. Can you tell us how people receive you? How did people knew 2 that who you were? 3 A. JI have, JI have its own representative there. 4 Q. So you say you were -- you went where, in Jalalabad? 5 A. Yeah. 6 Q. How long it take to go from, from Peshawar to Jalalabad? 7 A. From Babi to Jalalabad? 8 Q. Yes. 9 A. One day. 10 Q. And you say that you took training in Jalalabad? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. What was the name of the camp? 13 A. There's one camp they call Baitul Kubra. 14 THE COURT: Can you try to spell that for us, please? 15 THE WITNESS: B-a-i-t-u-l, another word, K-u-b-r-a. 16 BY MR. MOUSSAOUI: 17 Q. So this camp was inside Afghanistan? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. What was the general situation inside Afghanistan? 20 MR. KARAS: Objection, Your Honor. 21 THE COURT: Sustained. It's irrelevant. 22 BY MR. MOUSSAOUI: 23 Q. Was any war going on inside Afghanistan when you went inside 24 Afghanistan? 25 A. There was some exchange of artillery, fighting. 502 1 Q. Can you tell us, exchange of artillery between who and who? 2 A. Between the mujahideen and the Afghan regime. 3 Q. So you went and you -- did you participate in this exchange 4 of artillery? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. So you come from, from Malaysia after one day in Karachi, one 7 day in, in the border, and you enter and you participate in 8 exchange of artillery; is it correct? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Do you recall how long it took you, the whole trip from 11 Malaysia to Afghanistan and back to Malaysia? How long? 12 A. One month. One month. 13 Q. And during this one month, you undertake military training; 14 is it correct? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Can you tell us which kind of, of weapon did you learn? 17 A. Some AK-47 and some pistol training and also I did shoot some 18 mortar. 19 Q. Anything else? 20 A. Can you repeat, please? 21 Q. Anything else? 22 A. Can you repeat the question again? 23 Q. Is it the only training you undertook in Afghanistan? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And you did participate in mortar artillery? 503 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Did you meet -- you said that you meet Abu Hafs at this 3 point? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Who did you meet? 6 A. 1999. 7 Q. Yeah, but at this point, did you recall meeting any important 8 person in Afghanistan? 9 MR. KARAS: Objection to "important," Your Honor. 10 THE COURT: Sustained. You can lead the witness, 11 Mr. Moussaoui. 12 BY MR. MOUSSAOUI: 13 Q. Who did you meet in Afghanistan? 14 A. The JI members and some Arabs. Also the, the Aran (phonetic) 15 Q. The Arabs, as you, as you say, were from which group? 16 A. I don't know. 17 Q. You are saying that you go to a military activity and you, 18 you do military work, you don't know with who you are; is it 19 correct? 20 MR. KARAS: Objection, Your Honor. Asked and answered. 21 THE COURT: No, I'm going to overrule the objection. He 22 can ask that. 23 Do you understand the question, Mr. Bafana? 24 THE WITNESS: I was -- I went there with -- I mean, I 25 went there to the JI representatives, so they brought me in, and I 504 1 don't question the Arabs from which group. So they are 2 introducing me to those Arabs. 3 BY MR. MOUSSAOUI: 4 Q. So you, you are saying that a 25-year-old, somebody went to 5 university, you have been brought near a war zone, and you are not 6 concerned for who and what you are fighting? You just fought? 7 MR. KARAS: Objection, Your Honor. Objection. 8 THE COURT: I'm going to sustain the objection. That's 9 argumentative. Just ask questions. Don't try to make speeches. 10 BY MR. MOUSSAOUI: 11 Q. I'm saying you, you have never been interested to know with 12 which group you were fighting? 13 A. The mujahideen, of course. They are the mujahideen. 14 Q. The word "mujahideen" just means combatant. 15 THE COURT: Now you're speaking -- 16 BY MR. MOUSSAOUI: 17 Q. I'm asking a group, name of a group. 18 A. At that time, I do not know their names of the group. 19 Q. So I can conclude that you fight with some people you don't 20 even know the name of this group? 21 THE COURT: You're repeating. 22 MR. KARAS: Objection. Asked and answered. 23 THE COURT: Right. I've sustained the objection. Do 24 not repeat. 25 BY MR. MOUSSAOUI: 505 1 Q. So let's go back to your second time when you went to 2 Afghanistan. Can you tell us how you, how you went to Afghanistan 3 the second time? 4 A. First, I went to Karachi from Kuala Lumpur. We stayed in 5 a -- we stayed in Karachi in a house belong to PAS, PAS is a 6 Malaysian political party, youth houses, and I stayed there with 7 them, and from there I took a bus. 8 Q. If I may stop you, I want to know how do you know that this 9 house belonged to PAS? 10 MR. KARAS: Objection, Your Honor. Relevance. 11 THE COURT: Why is this relevant to the case? 12 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Because there is no such -- 13 THE COURT: No, no. 14 MR. MOUSSAOUI: -- party operating in, in, in Pakistan. 15 THE COURT: Yeah, we're way far afield. 16 MR. MOUSSAOUI: It's a Malaysian PAS party. 17 THE COURT: Yeah, we're way far away from the issues in 18 this case. I'm sustaining the objection. 19 BY MR. MOUSSAOUI: 20 Q. So how did you learn -- how did you come to know that it 21 belonged to PAS? 22 MR. KARAS: Objection. Relevance. 23 THE COURT: This is beyond anything that's going to be 24 relevant to this case. You've got the man staying at a house. 25 He's on his way to Afghanistan. He says he -- 506 1 MR. MOUSSAOUI: No, but that's your story. That's the 2 story that's never been there. 3 THE COURT: He says he took a bus. Mr. Moussaoui, ask 4 questions that are relevant. I'm sustaining the objection. 5 MR. MOUSSAOUI: What is relevant is never relevant here. 6 THE COURT: Mr. Moussaoui. 7 BY MR. MOUSSAOUI: 8 Q. So carry on. When you went to Karachi and you stayed in the 9 so-called PAS, then after that, what happened? 10 A. From Karachi, we took a bus to Quetta, and there we went to a 11 house, a guesthouse belong to Taliban, and the next day we took a 12 bus together with Taliban to enter Afghanistan through place 13 called Spin Buldak, and from there we went to Afghanistan, and 14 there we stayed at a house belong to Burmese mujahideen. 15 Q. You say that you went to Quetta, correct? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. You said you went by bus, correct? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. How long it took you to go from Karachi to Quetta by bus? 20 A. We travel from evening, and we reached Quetta in morning. 21 Q. Then from Quetta, you say that you went into Afghanistan, 22 correct? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. So can you explain, Quetta is in Pakistan, correct? 25 A. Yes. 507 1 Q. Did you present your passport at the border? 2 MR. KARAS: Objection, Your Honor. Relevance. 3 MR. MOUSSAOUI: About the plausibility of this story. 4 THE COURT: I'm going to allow a little about -- of 5 this, because what the defendant appears to be doing is to try to 6 pierce the credibility of the witness. So the objection is 7 overruled. 8 THE WITNESS: We don't use any passport. 9 BY MR. MOUSSAOUI: 10 Q. There is no border patrol in Pakistan you are saying? 11 A. That I do not know. 12 Q. So you are -- you don't know. 13 You go from Pakistan to Afghanistan and don't know if 14 you ever cross a border? 15 A. Of course, we crossed the border. 16 Q. But you don't know if there was a, a border patrol? 17 A. Well, we were never stopped for the -- a checking by the 18 border force. 19 Q. You don't recall if you presented your passport? 20 THE COURT: Now that's repetitive -- 21 MR. KARAS: Objection. Asked and answered. 22 THE COURT: -- so I'm going to move you on. 23 He's already said that. 24 BY MR. MOUSSAOUI: 25 Q. So you say you enter Afghanistan. Where you went inside 508 1 Afghanistan? 2 A. Kandahar. 3 Q. Can you tell us where in Kandahar you went? Kandahar is a 4 big city. 5 A. I'm not really familiar with Kandahar anyway, but we went to 6 a place like a factory, which Hambali call it Maiwa (phonetic), 7 which belongs to Burmese, and it is a city. 8 Q. Can you repeat who it belong to? 9 A. I went to a house belong to Burmese, the Arakan people. 10 Q. Can you tell us how did you know that it belonged to the 11 Burmese now? 12 A. When I reached there, they told me that they are Burmese. 13 Q. So to go back, what was the purpose of your trip into 14 Afghanistan this time? 15 A. To send two Malaysian for military training. 16 Q. You didn't go to present a tape to Sheikh Abu Hafs (Arabic 17 spoken)? 18 A. That was the third time. I'm talking about the second time. 19 Q. Okay. Thank you. 20 So you went to bring some Malaysians for military 21 training. That's what you say? 22 A. I brought two Malaysians for military training, yes. 23 Q. So you were acting as a kind of guide? 24 A. I went there with Hambali. 25 Q. So how long did you stay in Kandahar? 509 1 A. Five days. 2 Q. Do you recall which year you were inside Afghanistan? 3 A. 1999. 4 Q. Do you recall any events, what happened in Afghanistan in 5 1999? 6 A. During my trip? 7 Q. Yes. 8 A. No. 9 Q. Are you sure? 10 MR. KARAS: Objection. 11 THE COURT: The witness said no. I'll sustain the 12 objection. Move on. 13 BY MR. MOUSSAOUI: 14 Q. So you stayed five day in Kandahar. Did you, did you go 15 somewhere else inside Afghanistan after this five day? 16 A. No. 17 Q. So what did you do after this five day? 18 A. Came back to Karachi. 19 Q. Did you do anything special during this five day in the 20 Burmese house? 21 MR. KARAS: Objection. Relevance. 22 THE COURT: You can ask leading questions. That 23 question is so broad, I agree, it doesn't seem relevant, and so 24 I'm going to sustain the objection. 25 BY MR. MOUSSAOUI: 510 1 Q. So you -- after five day, you went back to Karachi. How did 2 you go back to Karachi? 3 A. From Quetta or from Kandahar? 4 Q. From Kandahar. 5 A. From Kandahar, we took a cab, taxi to the -- to someplace in 6 the border. 7 Q. Then after, when you went to the border? 8 A. We took a pickup to the border. 9 Q. A taxi or a pickup? 10 A. Pickup. 11 Q. A pickup now. 12 A. At first it was a taxi. Then we changed to a pickup. 13 Q. And where did you go? 14 A. To Quetta. 15 Q. Did you cross a border? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Which one? 18 A. Spin Buldak. 19 Q. Did you present your passport? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Why? 22 A. We smuggled there. 23 Q. So you smuggled a pickup to go inside Quetta? 24 A. Not smuggled a pickup. I mean, we -- we did not go through 25 the immigration. 511 1 Q. Can you tell us how did you do this?" 2 THE COURT: All right, it's 12:30. We do have to stay 3 on our schedule. So we'll recess for the one hour for lunch. 4 Counsel, we need to be downstairs. And we'll see you-all back at 5 1:30. 6 (Recess from 12:30 p.m., until 1:30 p.m.) 7 8 CERTIFICATE OF THE REPORTERS 9 We certify that the foregoing is a correct transcript of the 10 record of proceedings in the above-entitled matter. 11 12 13 Anneliese J. Thomson 14 15 Karen Brynteson 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 512 1 I N D E X 2 DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS 3 WITNESS ON BEHALF OF THE GOVERNMENT: 4 Faiz Abu Baker Bankala 407 484 5 (Deposition) 6 EXHIBITS 7 MARKED RECEIVED 8 GOVERNMENT'S: 9 No. GX-25 404 10 GX-25T 404 OL-110 405 11 OL-111 405 OL-112 405 12 OL-113 405 13 OL-117 405 OL-118 405 14 OL-119 405 OL-125 405 15 OL-126 405 16 OL-127 405 OL-128 405 17 OL-129 405 OL-140.120 405 18 OL-140.123 405 19 OL-140.48 405 20 21 22 23 24 25