Immigration Minister defends Government's asylum policy
Australian Broadcasting Corporation
Minister for Immigration and Citizenship Chris Bowen joins us to discuss the Government's asylum policy and the further developments to come.
TranscriptLEIGH SALES, PRESENTER: For the Government's take on the issue, I was joined a short time ago by the Immigration Minister Chris Bowen.
Chris Bowen, is the fact that Tony Abbott and his senior leadership team were granted a meeting in Indonesia with senior leadership there an indication that the Indonesians believe that they are going to be dealing with an Abbott Government in the near future?
CHRIS BOWEN, IMMIGRATION MINISTER: No, the Indonesian Government extended the Opposition the normal courtesies that go to an opposition leader visiting another country. But Tony Abbott had an opportunity here to raise what he says is the cornerstone of his policy, turning back the boats. He squibbed it. He's a lion in Canberra and a mouse in Jakarta when it comes to what he says is a core policy of turning back the boats. Now he's said in the past that he'd do it regardless what Indonesia says. Now he says he'd workshop it with Indonesia, but he failed to workshop it with Indonesia. And the reason he did that is because he knows President Yudhoyono would have said, "Not interested." It would have been of great embarrassment to him, so he chose to squib it, which underlines the fact that his policy is ill-thought-out and will never be implemented.
LEIGH SALES: But the Shadow Foreign Minister and the Shadow Immigration Minister raised it with Marty Natalegawa, their counterpart. It's common practice in diplomatic areas to have the details nutted out at a lower level.
CHRIS BOWEN: Yeah, but Tony Abbott didn't even raise this with President Yudhoyono and as the alternative prime minister for a policy that he constantly talks about in Australia, to fail to even mention it in his meeting with the head of the Indonesian Government is a terrible indictment.
LEIGH SALES: It's accurate to say, isn't it, that the asylum seeker policy that you announced in August has not yet acted as any sort of deterrent to people trying to come to Australia via boat?
CHRIS BOWEN: Well, I think there's a few challenges here, Leigh, and let's ...
LEIGH SALES: A few challenges? Come on!
CHRIS BOWEN: Well let's go through a couple of points. Firstly, yes, people smugglers are out there counter-spinning, saying, "Look, this policy's not gonna be implemented fully. You won't be on Nauru for long. You probably won't be sent to Nauru." So they're out there counter-spinning. That's a fact and we've got a task to counteract that and we need to continue and increase our communication efforts and we're doing that.
Secondly, we need to show via the experience of this policy that they're wrong. We need to continue to transfer people to Nauru, we're doing that and we're increasing the tempo of those transfers and we need to make crystal clear our policy of no advantage by arriving by boat by implementing it and showing our resolve. That is the best way that we can combat people smuggling and that will take some time.
And the third point and final point I'd make on this, Leigh, is that I've said consistently for two years now that something as simple as just doing Nauru or Manus Island by itself would not be the whole story. You need to implement a whole suite of measures, all the recommendations of the Houston Report. It's a bit ironic to see Mr Abbott and Mr Morrison jumping up and down, saying, "Look, Nauru and Manus Island arenít working." We're the ones who've made the point consistently and repeatedly that you need to implement all the measures, including things like the Malaysia agreement, including increasing our refugee intake to 20,000, which we've done and which I'll be announcing more details about shortly.
LEIGH SALES: I'll come to some questions about that full suite matter in a moment, but the reality is you've announced some things so you'd expect to see some progress, but everything is trending in the wrong direction, the numbers continue to go up, not down.
CHRIS BOWEN: Well, we are seeing those challenges, Leigh. We've seen some steps forward. We've returned over 40 people to Sri Lanka, for example. You will say, well, 40's a small number compared to the arrivals. That's a reasonable point to make, but I would say that's a lot more than we've seen previously in terms of voluntary returns to Sri Lanka, and I think that's underlining the point that I made before: when people are actually seeing this policy being implemented, they're making different decisions and that will need to continue.
LEIGH SALES: But you've got the problem, haven't you, that because Nauru and Manus are basically already full because of the number of arrivals you've had coming to Australia, the effectiveness of those options as a deterrent is already over?
CHRIS BOWEN: Oh, no, I don't necessarily accept that full premise, but we have do have to obviously manage these arrivals in terms of our implementation of the no advantage test.
LEIGH SALES: Well how is it still a deterrent if they're already full and know they are coming to Australia?
CHRIS BOWEN: Well because - well I'll be making clear that we will continue to transfer people to Nauru and Manus Island. Very soon we'll have our first transfer to Manus Island.
LEIGH SALES: 4,000-plus people, 'cause that's how many people are in limbo now in Australia?
CHRIS BOWEN: Well - well, well, Leigh, of course we have to implement this report's recommendations against the challenge - I agree with you, it's a challenge that we've had these arrivals and we'll continue to have arrivals and we'll need to manage that and I'll obviously say more about that as we go. But the important point now is that we need to continue to show the resolve, these transfers to Nauru, that we will implement the no advantage test, that people who come to Australia by boat won't be advantaged over those many hundreds of thousands and millions of people who are in camps around the world who would love the chance for resettlement in Australia, but can't afford a people smuggler.
LEIGH SALES: I just want to pick you up there on this question of no advantage. Today before a Senate committee the president of the Human Rights Commission has said that the no advantage principle is an abstract concept without legal meaning.
CHRIS BOWEN: Well, she also said, I noted, that offshore processing was consistent with our international obligations, which is contradictory to what a lot of other people have said, but I've always argued that.
LEIGH SALES: Sure, but address this no advantage ...
CHRIS BOWEN: Sure. Well, to argue against the no advantage principle is to say that you believe that people who can afford to come by boat to Australia should be advantaged over those millions of people who can't afford to come to Australia by boat and I completely reject that premise.
LEIGH SALES: I don't think that that is the premise. I think the premise is that there's no benchmark by which to judge this no advantage principle.
CHRIS BOWEN: Well, as I've said before, we'll work with our posts in the region to ensure that we have benchmarks which would indicate - and I've said before it's not a one-size-fits-all, it's a case-by-case approach; we'll look at people's individual circumstances and make an assessment as to when they would've stood the opportunity to get resettled into Australia under that test.
LEIGH SALES: With the people who are currently in Australia in limbo who've come in after August, you are going to have to start processing some of them in Australia, aren't you?
CHRIS BOWEN: Well, I'll be making obviously further updates and further announcements about how we're doing that, but ...
LEIGH SALES: You can do it right here now.
CHRIS BOWEN: Well I'm not gonna announce it on your show tonight, Leigh. But what I've said is that the law is clear: you arrive in Australia after August 13, the law says you get transferred offshore to another country and we're implementing that. Yes, there are challenges; yes, we need to manage that implementation of the no advantage test. We'll see people moving through, no doubt, Nauru and Manus Island and some people going home and more capacity being created. All those things will go into how we manage this.
LEIGH SALES: In the five years that Labor's been in power, so far close to 26,000 people have arrived by boat. In the entire 11 years of the Howard Government only 14,000 or so people arrived. Is it logical then to say that the old raft of policies were more effective at stopping the boats than the current raft of policies are?
CHRIS BOWEN: Well, as I say, we're introducing Nauru and Manus Island. In relation to the other two policies, turn back the boats, well we've talked about that, how unworkable that is and they didn't have the guts to raise it with Indonesia, and temporary protection visas - well, you're asking about Howard Government policies and I'm answering your questions, Leigh.
LEIGH SALES: No, no, you've moved the goal posts. I pointed to the numbers that have come since you've been in power.
CHRIS BOWEN: Yes.
LEIGH SALES: The numbers that came when the Howard Government was in power ...
CHRIS BOWEN: And you asked me about Howard Government policies.
LEIGH SALES: ... and said clearly their policies are more effective looking just at the numbers than what your policies have been.
CHRIS BOWEN: Well you asked me about Howard Government policies and I'm running through them one by one. And I'm running through them one by ...
LEIGH SALES: So they're more effective? More effective based on the numbers?
CHRIS BOWEN: No, let's look at temporary protection visas as well. How would temporary protection visas work? We are saying you will stay in an offshore place, Manus Island or Nauru, until you would've received a visa if you hadn't come by boat. Now is the Opposition saying they would bring people back to Australia earlier than that and give them temporary protection visas? That they wouldn't implement the no advantage test? Is that how they propose a deterrent? Well that's not gonna work. Are they saying, "No, we'll leave you there that long and then give them you temporary protection visa? Is that in keeping with the principles that this nation should be adopting?
Look, really, we're implementing the recommendations, all the recommendations - we're the only ones not cherry picking the recommendations of the Houston review, which was a well-thought-out and considered policy. Obviously, we've been working for a long time. We could have had Nauru and Malaysia and Manus Island all up and running 12 months ago. There were offers made in good faith to the Opposition. We've had to find other ways to do it, including appointing the Houston panel and getting the legislation through. We're getting on with the job with the authority given to us by the Parliament and we are implementing with all the authority that we can gain from the Parliament all those recommendations.
LEIGH SALES: Chris Bowen, thank you very much.
CHRIS BOWEN: Thank you.