Bachs

Education

Part

Autodidacts

was

Personal

animosities

Uri

Golomb

wrote

October

Charles

Francis

wrote

On

Gould

I

suspect

the

regular

potshots

stem

from

two

sources

Gould

like

Bach

was

an

autodidact

Bach

was

not

an

autodidact

He

had

a

formal

education

and

studied

and

apprenticed

under

some

of

the

best

performers

and

composers

of

his

time

sometimes

seeking

them

of

his

own

initative

He

clearly

thought

that

studying

from

experts

was

worth

a

great

deal

Im

not

sure

Gould

qualifies

as

an

autodidact

either

as

his

Grove

entry

by

Kevin

Bazzana

states

Gould

studied

theory

the

organ

and

the

piano

with

Alberto

Guerrero

at

the

Toronto

later

Royal

Conservatory

of

Music

Its

true

that

he

didnt

pursue

academic

studies

later

but

he

wasnt

entirely

selftaught

the

autodidact

description

is

probably

more

apt

with

reference

to

his

writings

his

forays

into

philosophy

music

history

etc

David

Glenn

Lebut

Jr

wrote

October

To

Uri

Golomb

Two

problems

Bachs

formal

education

ended

at

what

we

would

consider

HighSchool

level

To

compare

him

to

one

that

went

to

college

would

be

preposterous

Bach

never

formally

studied

music

neither

did

his

sons

for

that

matter

To

compare

him

to

one

that

did

would

equally

be

preposterous

Thomas

Braatz

wrote

October

Uri

Golomb

wrote

Bach

was

not

an

autodidact

He

had

a

formal

education

and

studied

and

apprenticed

under

some

of

the

best

performers

and

composers

of

his

time

sometimes

seeking

them

of

his

own

initative

He

clearly

thought

that

studying

from

experts

was

worth

a

great

deal

So

did

other

wellknown

and

professed

autodidacts

in

the

arts

Without

receiving

a

diploma

or

recognized

degree

they

were

able

nevertheless

to

achieve

an

importance

greater

than

many

others

who

like

sheep

were

herded

through

the

highest

institutions

of

learning

where

mastery

of

the

arts

was

being

taught

Lets

keep

the

focus

on

one

thing

quite

clearly

Bach

did

not

possess

a

legitimate

degree

not

even

an

honorary

one

from

any

institution

of

higher

learning

This

is

one

important

aspect

of

autodidactism

Autodidacts

learn

in

a

way

not

sanctioned

by

the

prerequisites

and

requirements

of

course

work

and

the

prescribed

techniques

of

master

teachers

or

professors

However

they

do

not

learn

in

a

vacuum

of

egoism

untouched

by

the

world

around

them

They

know

how

to

make

use

of

the

nonacademic

sources

in

their

environment

books

scores

performances

paintings

sources

not

otherwise

sanctioned

by

universities

and

academies

unless

they

are

taught

in

a

specific

way

illustrating

the

current

fashionable

methodologies

of

teaching

In

the

DWB

some

German

definitions

can

help

to

understand

autodidact

better

selbstgelehrt

selftaught

and

selbstwachsen

literally

having

grown

by

itself

like

a

plant

that

grows

naturally

without

the

künstlich

artificial

help

of

a

gardener

in

bezug

auf

beruf

und

thätigkeit

natürlich

geboren

der

von

selbst

etwas

geworden

ist

sich

wozu

gemacht

hat

unausgebildet

autodidact

in

regard

to

profession

and

activity

being

by

nature

born

into

something

a

person

who

has

become

someone

of

worthimportance

someone

who

has

made

himself

into

that

for

which

he

is

known

having

not

had

a

formal

education

an

autodidact

There

is

also

the

implication

that

this

person

instinctively

knows

how

to

achieve

excellence

and

position

without

the

help

of

educational

institutions

particularly

those

of

the

higher

kind

that

grant

degrees

and

diplomas

Here

is

an

example

based

on

an

entry

in

the

OED

Oxford

University

Press

for

autodidact

Blackwell

Magazine

March

As

a

painter

Dante

Gabriel

Rossetti

was

essentially

an

autodidact

What

do

we

know

about

Rossettis

autodidactic

training

Grove

Dictionary

of

Art

Macmillan

vol

p

An

early

disposition

for

drawing

and

literature

led

him

to

illustrate

his

sister

Marias

copy

of

the

Iliad

in

In

Rossetti

began

attending

Henry

Sasss

Drawing

Academy

in

Bloomsbury

London

He

was

an

inept

pupilIn

December

he

entered

the

Antique

School

of

the

Royal

Academy

his

boredom

with

copying

casts

and

his

intolerance

of

discipline

caused

him

to

leave

He

then

sought

tuition

with

Ford

Madox

Brown

whose

work

he

admired

Although

Brown

remained

his

closest

friend

Rossetti

found

the

tasks

dictated

by

the

exacting

master

uncongenial

barely

five

months

later

in

August

he

left

Brown

Here

is

an

example

from

the

field

of

music

quoted

from

the

biographical

entry

written

by

Anna

Maria

Busse

Berger

Grove

Music

Online

Oxford

University

Press

accessed

Agricola

Sore

Martin

born

Schwiebus

now

Owiebodzin

Poland

died

Magdeburg

June

German

music

theorist

teacher

and

composer

According

to

his

own

statements

he

came

from

a

peasant

family

and

was

largely

selftaught

in

music

By

he

was

in

Magdeburg

working

as

a

music

teacher

He

became

choirmaster

of

the

Protestant

Lateinschule

in

about

and

retained

this

position

until

his

death

Agricola

was

one

of

the

earliest

teachers

of

music

to

realize

Luthers

wish

to

incorporate

music

as

a

central

component

of

Protestant

education

His

foremost

aim

in

educating

students

and

congregation

was

to

present

material

as

clearly

as

possible

and

to

reach

a

large

audience

It

was

for

this

reason

that

his

early

treatises

were

written

in

German

rather

than

the

customary

Latin

Here

are

Agricolas

own

words

as

quoted

from

his

Musica

Instrumentalis

in

the

DWB

das

ich

alle

meine

tage

jnn

solcher

kunst

keinen

activum

praeceptorem

von

menschen

gehabt

sondern

das

jenige

was

ich

darinne

verstehe

bey

mir

allein

mit

der

gotts

hülffe

uberkomen

hab

drumb

möcht

ich

wol

ein

selbwachsen

musicus

gnant

werden

that

in

all

the

days

I

have

spent

learning

such

an

art

I

have

not

ever

had

any

active

teacher

learned

authority

but

rather

that

that

which

I

understand

as

art

has

come

to

me

by

Gods

help

alone

for

this

reason

I

would

like

to

be

known

as

a

musical

autodidact

From

the

examples

above

it

should

be

evident

that

an

autodidacts

as

artists

or

composers

can

be

distinguished

from

those

who

have

completed

successfully

courses

of

learning

and

training

at

academies

or

universities

The

instinctive

pursuit

of

excellence

on

the

part

of

autodidacts

leads

away

from

the

strictly

structured

environment

of

such

educational

institutions

and

can

actually

be

stifling

for

the

natural

unfolding

of

their

artistic

talents

Closely

linked

with

the

notion

of

autodidact

is

the

definition

of

a

selfmade

individual

one

who

has

risen

from

obscurity

or

poverty

by

hisher

own

exertions

The

fact

that

Bach

along

with

his

great

musical

talent

was

also

a

reasonably

wellread

man

based

upon

his

private

library

compared

with

the

ordinary

businessmen

and

workers

he

would

encounter

on

the

street

but

was

also

a

man

who

never

had

a

diploma

or

degree

proves

that

an

autodidact

such

as

Bach

could

be

a

Mensch

mit

Bildung

an

educated

cultured

person

without

ever

having

attended

a

university

or

enrolling

in

a

musical

academy

where

he

might

have

been

taught

by

the

best

musicians

and

composers

in

Europe

Bradley

Lehman

wrote

October

To

Thomas

Braatz

The

instinctive

pursuit

of

excellence

on

the

part

of

many

welleducated

individuals

has

led

us

toward

the

structured

environment

of

universities

for

the

resources

and

the

confrontation

with

unfamiliar

ideas

It

is

the

grappling

with

diversity

and

the

encounter

with

a

wide

range

of

information

that

leads

to

learning

and

understanding

and

broad

background

in

chosen

topics

This

can

actually

be

highly

stimulating

and

motivating

for

the

natural

unfolding

of

our

artistic

ta

And

its

that

response

to

the

instinctive

pursuit

of

excellence

finding

a

place

where

that

instinct

may

be

refined

and

practiced

Furthermore

we

know

how

to

make

use

of

both

the

academic

and

the

nonacademic

sources

in

our

environment

Thats

a

big

point

of

training

in

valid

research

methods

learning

where

to

find

useful

things

and

learning

how

to

use

them

as

the

environment

itself

is

broadened

Autodidacts

have

to

content

themselves

with

nonacademic

resources

plus

whatever

academic

resources

they

can

beg

buy

borrow

steal

or

copy

from

their

own

enterprise

usually

disrespecting

academic

integrity

in

the

processwhich

still

doesnt

give

them

the

training

to

use

those

academic

resources

responsibly

and

logically

anyway

A

person

does

not

have

less

worth

for

seeking

and

accepting

formal

guidance

from

those

who

know

something

better

than

oneself

That

process

shows

a

willingness

to

learn

Autodidacts

may

pride

themselves

very

deeply

and

rightly

so

on

their

achievements

without

education

But

the

very

selfguided

nature

of

such

work

can

lead

to

blind

alleys

of

investigation

and

unsound

reasoning

problems

that

would

be

very

easily

corrected

if

theyd

swallow

some

of

that

arrogant

selfpride

in

selfinstruction

and

the

selfimportant

pride

in

not

having

degrees

and

go

take

lessons

And

even

if

it

can

be

demonstrated

that

some

students

have

a

sheeplike

attitude

toward

education

treating

it

only

like

passive

and

thoughtless

indoctrination

thats

not

a

proof

that

education

is

only

for

sheeplike

students

Nor

is

it

proof

that

the

instructors

and

institutions

treat

it

that

way

Again

basic

logic

The

true

values

of

any

service

should

not

be

judged

by

its

least

responsible

users

Everybodys

an

autodidact

at

some

things

That

observation

itself

is

not

proof

that

autodidacticism

is

the

best

way

to

learn

anything

Thomas

Braatz

wrote

October

Bradley

Lehman

wrote

The

instinctive

pursuit

of

excellence

on

the

part

of

many

welleducated

individuals

has

led

us

toward

the

structured

environment

of

universities

for

the

resources

and

the

confrontation

with

unfamiliar

ideas

It

is

the

grappling

with

diversity

and

the

encounter

with

a

wide

range

of

information

that

leads

to

learning

and

understanding

and

broad

background

in

chosen

topics

This

can

actually

be

highly

stimulating

and

motivating

for

the

natural

unfolding

of

our

artistic

talents

And

its

that

response

to

the

instinctive

pursuit

of

excellence

finding

a

place

where

that

instinct

may

be

refined

and

practiced

Often

it

is

the

very

baggage

of

a

structured

environment

which

gets

in

the

way

of

the

discovering

and

unfolding

of

unfamiliar

ideas

How

this

can

enhance

the

natural

unfolding

of

our

artistic

talents

where

the

inner

spirit

might

better

guide

the

individual

to

what

is

really

needed

has

not

been

clearly

explained

here

Bach

was

faced

with

a

similar

situation

in

his

moonlight

copying

endeavor

This

music

is

not

to

be

copied

for

purposes

of

study

is

what

he

heard

as

guidance

from

a

master

musician

This

is

quite

similar

to

a

university

course

which

prescribes

certain

readings

and

Furthermore

we

know

how

to

make

use

of

both

the

academic

and

the

nonacademic

sources

in

our

environment

Thats

a

big

point

of

training

in

valid

research

methods

learning

where

to

find

useful

things

and

learning

how

to

use

them

as

the

environment

itself

is

broadened

Autodidacts

have

to

content

themselves

with

nonacademic

resourcesplus

whatever

academic

resources

they

can

beg

buy

borrow

steal

or

copy

from

their

own

enterprise

usually

disrespecting

academic

integrity

in

the

processwhich

still

doesnt

give

them

the

training

to

use

those

academic

resources

responsibly

and

logically

anyway

Yes

Bach

was

very

naughty

He

should

not

have

stolen

these

academic

resources

late

at

night

in

order

to

copy

and

study

them

later

nor

should

he

have

stolen

the

works

of

other

famous

composers

for

his

own

performances

As

a

result

he

never

learned

how

to

get

the

proper

training

to

use

those

academic

resources

responsibly

and

logically

A

person

does

not

have

less

worth

for

seeking

and

accepting

formal

guidance

from

those

who

know

something

better

than

oneself

That

process

shows

a

willingness

to

learn

Autodidacts

may

pride

themselves

very

deeply

and

rightly

so

on

their

achievements

without

education

But

the

very

selfguided

nature

of

such

work

can

lead

to

blind

alleys

of

investigation

and

unsound

reasoning

problems

that

would

be

very

easily

corrected

if

theyd

swallow

some

of

that

arrogant

selfpride

in

selfinstruction

and

the

selfimportant

pride

in

not

having

degrees

and

go

take

lessons

Too

bad

that

Bach

did

not

show

a

willingness

to

learn

by

accepting

formal

guidance

in

a

structured

environment

from

those

who

knew

something

better

than

himself

How

many

blind

alleys

of

investigation

and

unsound

reasoning

did

Bach

get

into

because

of

his

autodidactism

Consider

how

Bach

might

have

swallowed

some

of

his

arrogant

selfpride

in

selfinstruction

particularly

the

selfimportant

pride

in

not

having

degreesby

going

to

take

lessons

from

someone

with

degrees

teaching

at

a

university

But

thank

God

he

did

not

do

so

And

even

if

it

can

be

demonstrated

that

some

students

have

a

sheeplike

attitude

toward

education

treating

it

only

like

passive

and

thoughtless

indoctrination

thats

not

a

proof

that

education

is

only

for

sheeplike

students

Nor

is

it

proof

that

the

instructors

and

institutions

treat

it

that

way

Again

basic

logic

The

true

values

of

any

service

should

not

be

judged

by

its

least

responsible

users

Nor

is

it

proof

that

others

like

Bach

would

have

benefited

from

instructors

and

institutions

who

did

not

herd

their

sheeplike

students

through

the

rigors

of

an

academic

education

Everybodys

an

autodidact

at

some

things

That

observation

itself

is

not

proof

that

autodidacticism

is

the

best

way

to

learn

anything

It

certainly

depends

on

the

individual

the

individuals

innate

talents

and

gifts

just

as

much

as

it

depends

also

upon

the

fact

that

there

are

good

professors

and

bad

ones

more

reasonable

academic

institutions

with

their

structures

as

well

as

bad

ones

We

are

not

speaking

here

about

the

numerous

bad

autodidacts

students

degreed

professors

etc

These

do

exist

just

as

there

are

also

the

few

truly

excellent

autodidacts

as

well

as

their

equallyasrare

counterparts

in

academic

institutions

counterparts

who

recognize

the

need

to

overcome

the

deficiencies

inherent

in

the

structured

learning

environment

Bradley

Lehman

wrote

October

To

Thomas

Braatz

With

re

the

claim

Bachs

instinct

was

refined

and

led

to

greater

knowledge

and

experience

by

defying

the

structured

authority

of

a

master

teacher

evidence

please

It

seems

to

me

that

he

went

to

meet

Buxtehude

and

overstayed

the

planned

sojourn

for

the

primary

reason

of

learning

from

the

experience

of

a

master

musician

There

was

also

his

trip

to

Hamburg

to

meet

the

venerable

Reincken

et

al

And

back

in

his

youth

the

famed

moonlight

manuscript

itself

came

from

his

brothers

studies

with

the

master

Pachelbel

And

then

furthermore

in

Bachs

own

career

as

a

teacher

good

students

sought

him

out

as

their

own

master

instructor

The

Leipzig

authorities

checked

him

out

thoroughly

as

to

his

readiness

to

BE

a

teacher

before

hiring

him

Wheres

JSBs

alleged

defiance

of

a

system

of

education

with

master

teachers

there

in

any

of

this

And

with

re

these

alleged

deficiencies

in

the

structured

learning

environment

of

modern

universities

or

a

university

course

whichprescribes

certain

readings

and

castigates

othersthats

all

empty

allegation

and

inhearsay

from

one

who

has

never

given

indication

that

hes

ever

attended

one

EVIDENCE

PLEASE

that

such

allegedly

poor

instruction

is

a

norm

anywhere

in

accredited

universities

EVIDENCE

PLEASE

that

you

have

any

clue

whatsoever

from

experience

as

to

university

instruction

in

music

and

the

ways

in

which

its

handled

Lacking

that

you

really

have

no

basis

to

be

making

such

accusations

against

the

value

or

structure

of

formal

education

Charles

Francis

wrote

October

Bradley

Lehman

wrote

And

with

re

these

alleged

deficiencies

in

the

structured

learning

environment

of

modern

universities

or

a

university

course

which

prescribes

certain

readings

and

castigates

othersthats

all

empty

allegation

and

invented

hearsay

from

one

who

has

never

given

indication

that

hes

ever

attended

one

EVIDENCE

PLEASE

that

such

allegedly

poor

instruction

is

a

norm

anywhere

in

accredited

universities

EVIDENCE

PLEASE

that

you

have

any

clue

whatsoever

from

experience

as

to

university

instruction

in

music

and

the

ways

in

which

its

handled

Lacking

that

you

really

have

no

basis

to

be

making

such

accusations

against

the

value

or

structure

Allow

me

to

refer

you

to

the

remarks

of

Wolgang

Plath

in

his

forward

to

the

Klavierbüchlein

für

Wilhelm

Friedemann

Bach

Bärenreiter

The

opening

with

its

table

of

clefs

ornaments

and

fingerings

applicatio

is

certainly

instructive

enough

but

it

is

difficult

not

to

receive

the

impression

later

on

that

the

instruction

as

it

is

reflected

in

the

entries

of

the

ClavierBüchlein

placed

but

little

emphasis

on

systematic

method

or

strict

discipline

Note

that

here

we

have

a

book

whose

very

purpose

is

the

instruction

of

Bachs

own

son

And

IMO

the

lack

of

structure

is

deliberate

for

how

will

a

young

mind

be

trained

to

develop

that

essential

creative

element

if

everything

is

spoonfed

from

a

higher

authority

in

a

Bradley

Lehman

wrote

October

To

Charles

Francis

Ever

taught

music

to

a

How

about

to

a

How

about

to

a

Different

methods

are

applicable

in

each

case

Im

currently

attending

a

weekly

class

in

music

with

my

the

professional

instructor

has

very

good

methods

to

keep

the

children

and

parents

engaged

with

the

material

The

progress

from

week

to

week

is

already

noticeable

and

we

have

supplemental

things

to

work

on

each

week

outside

class

too

Our

instructor

teaches

four

or

five

of

these

MusikGarten

classes

each

week

to

different

ages

of

children

Ever

studied

the

outstanding

didactic

keyboard

work

of

the

th

century

Bartoks

Mikrokosmos

A

marvelous

resource

for

training

creative

and

independent

thinking

and

technique

I

have

used

it

with

adult

harpsichord

students

also

as

suggested

by

Bartok

in

his

preface

Great

way

to

foster

a

smooth

wellcontrolled

touch

on

the

keyboard

playing

these

little

pieces

As

for

spoonfeeding

from

a

higher

authority

Ever

taken

any

music

lessons

In

what

instruments

and

at

what

age

Thomas

Braatz

wrote

October

Bradley

Lehman

wrote

It

seems

to

me

that

he

Bach

went

to

meet

Buxtehude

and

overstayed

the

planned

sojourn

for

the

primary

reason

of

learning

from

the

experience

of

a

master

musician

Evidence

please

that

Bach

engaged

in

any

kind

of

formal

study

under

Buxtehude

Bach

only

heard

Buxtehude

play

the

organ

and

perform

some

of

his

Abendmusiken

among

other

things

This

is

like

listening

to

recordings

of

Glenn

Gould

and

learning

how

to

play

and

compose

like

him

This

is

certainly

not

a

structured

form

of

higher

education

by

any

means

We

have

no

statement

from

Bach

or

from

Buxtehude

that

one

was

the

master

teacher

who

taught

a

traveling

student

for

a

few

weeks

after

which

Buxtehude

may

have

written

a

recommendation

based

upon

Bachs

improved

skills

as

a

musician

There

was

also

his

trip

to

Hamburg

to

meet

the

venerable

Reincken

et

al

Evidence

please

that

Reincken

instructed

Bach

formally

in

music

composition

or

performance

Wasnt

it

the

other

way

around

Bach

was

absolutely

superior

in

every

way

in

passing

whatever

musical

test

Reincken

could

devise

It

was

Reinckens

comment

of

amazement

at

what

he

had

heard

that

has

come

down

to

us

And

back

in

his

youth

the

famed

moonlight

manuscript

itself

came

from

his

brothers

studies

with

the

master

Pachelbel

As

I

had

already

explained

on

this

thread

his

brother

forbade

Bach

to

copy

and

study

the

manuscripts

that

were

locked

away

If

it

were

not

for

Bachs

own

autodidactic

initiative

he

may

never

have

made

such

a

thorough

acquaintance

with

Pachelbels

music

This

is

just

another

instance

when

the

more

highly

trained

master

musicianscomposersteachers

fail

to

transmit

valuable

knowledge

to

their

subservient

pupils

or

deliberately

stand

in

pupils

way

making

it

extremely

difficult

for

the

pupil

to

obtain

what

he

needs

as

the

moment

What

good

is

formal

instruction

of

this

sort

even

when

the

recipient

can

point

to

And

then

furthermore

in

Bachs

own

career

as

a

teacher

good

students

sought

him

out

as

their

own

master

instructor

Yes

and

according

to

some

musicologists

Bach

gave

them

Niedts

music

instruction

book

to

study

Niedt

was

a

musical

theorist

we

have

no

documented

music

from

his

pen

who

believed

completely

in

the

galant

style

and

abhorred

all

contrapuntal

sacred

compositions

As

I

understand

it

the

best

instruction

that

Bach

ever

gave

to

his

students

was

to

have

them

listen

while

he

played

his

compositions

or

improvised

In

comparison

we

might

say

today

that

a

professor

in

performance

gave

his

graduate

students

some

of

his

Wildboar

recordings

to

listen

to

and

this

would

be

considered

the

same

type

of

formal

instruction

on

a

higher

university

level

as

Bach

the

master

musiciancomposer

gave

his

private

students

The

Leipzig

authorities

checked

him

out

thoroughly

as

to

his

readiness

to

BE

a

teacher

before

hiring

him

Wheres

JSBs

alleged

defiance

of

a

system

of

education

with

master

teachers

there

in

any

of

this

As

I

understand

this

Bach

did

everything

possible

to

get

out

of

teaching

Latin

classes

which

were

required

of

him

This

is

more

than

simply

an

alleged

defiance

of

a

system

of

education

it

is

outright

defiance

Bach

had

other

teachers

substitute

for

him

on

a

permanent

basis

much

to

the

dismay

of

the

citychurch

council

How

does

this

show

his

alleged

support

of

a

system

of

education

with

master

teachers

Eric

Bergerud

wrote

October

David

Glenn

Lebut

wrote

Two

problems

Bachs

formal

education

ended

at

what

we

would

consider

HighSchool

level

To

compare

him

to

one

that

went

to

college

would

be

preposterous

Bach

never

formally

studied

music

neither

did

his

sons

for

that

matter

To

compare

him

to

one

that

did

would

equally

be

preposterous

Considering

the

fact

that

Bach

another

word

for

musician

in

and

around

Eisenach

in

I

think

its

better

to

think

of

JS

Bach

as

more

or

less

growing

up

in

a

musical

school

of

a

very

high

order

His

father

was

a

musician

and

more

to

the

point

so

was

his

older

brother

His

formal

school

had

a

heavy

dose

of

musical

instruction

although

I

doubt

Bach

learned

as

much

there

as

from

other

Bachs

While

very

young

he

met

and

worked

with

some

very

skilled

musicians

indeed

As

Wolf

shows

so

nicely

Bachs

selfimposed

course

of

study

was

Uri

Golomb

wrote

October

Bradley

Lehman

wrote

And

with

re

these

alleged

deficiencies

in

the

structured

learning

environment

of

modern

universities

or

a

university

course

which

prescribes

certain

readings

and

castigates

othersthats

all

empty

allegation

and

invented

hearsay

from

one

who

has

never

given

indication

that

hes

ever

attended

one

Speaking

as

someone

who

has

attended

university

courses

I

can

recall

no

occasions

when

I

was

specifically

told

to

steer

clear

from

certain

readings

Yes

in

undergraduate

BA

studies

we

were

taught

from

textbooks

which

means

that

certain

readings

were

recommended

even

mandated

but

we

were

explicitliy

encouraged

to

go

beyond

them

by

visiting

the

library

and

seeking

out

further

reading

on

our

own

We

had

mandatory

methodology

courses

on

how

to

use

the

library

and

discover

books

and

articles

for

ourselves

without

needing

our

teachers

to

refer

us

to

them

And

even

directed

reading

was

not

simply

a

matter

of

getting

one

opinion

we

were

often

told

to

read

books

and

articles

which

expressed

different

even

contradictory

points

of

view

so

that

we

can

make

our

own

judgment

individually

or

in

group

discussion

on

the

validity

of

the

arguments

presented

Uri

Golomb

wrote

October

One

point

to

bear

in

mind

in

all

this

the

fact

that

Bach

or

Mozart

for

that

matter

and

many

others

besides

did

not

get

a

music

degree

is

pretty

meaningless

in

a

context

where

universities

did

not

give

music

degrees

The

subject

simply

wasnt

taught

in

most

universities

in

Bachs

lifetime

Some

composers

went

to

universities

but

they

studied

other

subjects

there

not

music

According

to

Jean

Gribenski

Grove

Online

Music

played

a

small

role

in

university

curricula

at

least

until

the

early

century

That

was

also

true

of

other

comparable

subjects

art

and

literature

for

example

the

universities

served

basically

law

medicine

and

the

church

and

to

some

extent

mathematics

and

attending

it

was

not

expected

of

a

young

man

of

means

Music

was

taught

instead

in

the

church

in

the

home

and

in

the

musicians

studio

it

Bach

therefore

did

not

choose

to

avoid

a

university

music

course

we

have

no

way

of

knowing

if

he

would

have

taken

such

a

course

had

it

existed

He

did

study

music

in

the

church

in

the

home

and

in

the

studios

Gribenski

goes

on

to

describe

the

role

that

music

filled

in

universities

even

though

it

wasnt

a

subject

of

study

mentioning

that

In

Leipzig

a

special

arrangement

developed

by

which

the

Kantor

of

the

Thomaskirche

also

took

charge

of

university

music

which

formed

a

regular

part

of

JS

Bachs

duties

Bradley

Lehman

wrote

October

Niedt

Thomas

Braatz

wrote

Niedt

was

a

musical

theorist

we

have

no

documented

music

from

his

pen

who

believed

completely

in

the

galant

style

and

abhorred

all

contrapuntal

sacred

compositions

That

must

be

a

joke

or

else

a

gross

misunderstanding

by

you

or

maybe

both

Friedrich

Niedt

died

in

which

is

long

before

the

galant

style

as

you

well

know

Weve

been

through

all

this

in

previous

discussion

Furthermore

as

you

made

clear

in

earlier

discussion

your

only

exposure

to

Niedt

yourself

has

been

thirdhand

through

an

old

MGG

article

that

has

led

you

to

believe

so

willingly

to

dismiss

Niedt

as

you

dont

like

what

he

had

to

say

that

he

was

some

sort

of

incompetent

Well

Bach

didnt

consider

him

an

incompetent

only

you

do

Bach

taught

his

own

students

from

Niedts

written

materials

Thats

documented

fact

You

dont

like

it

Thats

also

documented

fact

I

believe

Bachs

teaching

ahead

of

yours

Bach

knew

the

material

and

he

was

right

there

Bach

played

basso

continuo

you

Bradley

Lehman

wrote

October

Eric

Bergerud

wrote

Obviously

Bach

was

a

genius

But

like

artistists

of

the

top

rank

he

also

prepared

hard

and

worked

hard

If

education

is

thought

to

mean

preparation

Bach

was

well

educated

indeed

As

for

Bachs

sons

what

place

would

have

been

preferable

for

musical

education

than

the

home

of

a

good

father

who

was

by

most

accounts

a

fine

teacher

and

the

greatest

musician

in

history

Exactly

What

better

learning

environment

could

there

be

but

to

have

lessons

and

listen

in

on

other

peoples

lessons

with

Johann

Sebastian

Bach

day

after

day

for

years

And

take

a

look

at

the

instructional

materials

with

which

Bach

taught

his

own

wife

and

presumably

also

the

children

in

and

his

Leipzig

students

in

on

the

necessary

art

of

thoroughbass

Both

of

these

are

reproduced

in

the

edition

of

the

Bach

Reader

Bach

gives

some

tables

of

the

most

frequently

encountered

figures

some

lists

of

general

guidelines

some

exercises

to

play

in

the

set

and

the

remark

in

the

set

that

many

additionally

important

points

are

best

demonstrated

in

the

lessons

not

in

writing

Good

allround

teaching

there

And

its

certainly

not

evidence

that

JSB

expected

his

students

to

pick

up

their

knowledge

only

at

their

own

autodidactic

initiative

outside

lessons

quite

the

contrary

These

particular

lessons

are

in

part

handwritten

by

the

students

themselves

from

being

told

what

to

write

down

in

the

lessons

with

JSB

There

are

all

these

systematic

guidelines

and

the

musical

examples

themselves

drawn

from

an

earlier

textbook

which

Bach

obviously

considered

worthy

of

such

mining

for

examples

Then

look

at

the

keyboard

treatise

ff

written

by

his

son

CPE

which

is

still

just

about

the

most

thorough

textbook

on

thoroughbass

ever

written

all

the

way

through

the

most

advanced

harmony

and

treatment

of

ornamental

dissonances

Perhaps

CPE

in

his

comprehensive

approach

to

explicating

the

topic

had

been

influenced

by

his

own

formal

university

study

of

law

receiving

that

training

on

ways

to

be

systematic

Presumably

at

least

some

of

that

musical

detail

in

CPEs

book

reflects

the

further

oral

instruction

from

his

only

teacher

his

father

Where

else

would

he

have

got

it

but

from

a

Genius

doesnt

arise

out

of

nowhere

It

requires

challenge

instruction

focus

encouragement

practical

experience

personal

enterprise

insatiable

curiosity

openmindedness

a

huge

amount

of

dedicated

hard

work

exposure

to

a

bunch

of

conflicting

ideas

and

the

occasional

failed

creative

attempts

that

help

one

avoid

similar

errors

later

And

its

refined

by

overcoming

difficulties

and

setbacks

through

perseverance

JS

Bach

in

his

learning

and

his

teaching

exhibited

all

of

this

Without

instruction

one

doesnt

get

going

in

the

right

directions

and

the

conflicting

ideas

end

up

being

confusingmisleading

or

worse

an

autodidact

without

guidance

has

no

solid

way

to

make

sense

of

the

problems

and

anomalies

except

to

make

up

something

which

might

not

be

correct

or

might

overlook

other

important

evidence

The

things

that

autodidacts

make

up

are

about

their

own

instinctive

tendencies

and

their

unwillingness

to

admit

that

their

instinctive

guesses

might

be

mistaken

and

their

arrogant

assumptions

that

they

already

know

everything

that

could

berelevant

Autodidacticism

is

narcissism

It

limits

itself

Thats

why

instruction

is

important

to

help

the

student

especially

the

highly

creative

and

thoughtful

student

steer

around

such

potholes

of

wasted

energy

avoiding

unreasonable

madeup

and

superficial

conclusions

Instruction

helps

the

student

to

understand

what

is

reasonable

both

as

a

process

of

learning

and

in

the

content

of

the

subject

matter

How

can

a

student

understand

whats

impractical

and

silly

and

understand

why

its

unreasonable

without

first

understanding

whats

practical

and

normal

and

reasonable

Bradley

Lehman

wrote

October

Keyboard

instruction

Thomas

Braatz

wrote

As

I

understand

it

the

best

instruction

that

Bach

ever

gave

to

his

students

was

to

have

them

listen

while

he

played

his

compositions

or

improvised

In

comparison

we

might

say

today

that

a

professor

in

performance

gave

his

graduate

students

some

of

his

Wildboar

recordings

to

listen

to

and

this

would

be

considered

the

same

type

of

formal

instruction

on

a

higher

university

level

as

Bach

the

master

musiciancomposer

gave

his

private

students

Well

as

you

think

you

understand

it

this

is

deeply

mistaken

especially

in

your

invented

comparison

here

This

is

obviously

about

me

and

my

formal

instruction

with

Edward

Parmentier

who

records

for

Wildboar

This

is

obviously

an

intended

personal

slam

both

of

me

and

my

professor

So

Ill

clear

things

up

for

you

Listen

carefully

In

lessons

with

me

both

privately

and

in

class

Edward

Parmentier

as

my

instructor

NEVER

ONCE

admonished

me

to

go

listen

to

even

a

single

one

of

his

own

recordings

to

learn

how

things

should

be

done

properly

His

teaching

is

much

better

than

that

much

more

thorough

in

every

way

He

teaches

both

by

the

Socratic

method

expecting

his

students

to

bring

and

confront

difficult

questions

more

than

simply

handing

out

correct

answers

and

by

reacting

to

the

students

performance

and

only

very

occasionally

by

sitting

down

at

the

instrument

He

is

one

of

the

most

outstandingly

brilliant

instructors

I

have

ever

had

in

any

field

of

study

He

teaches

how

to

learn

and

how

to

teach

beyond

merely

teaching

how

to

play

harpsichord

He

teaches

how

to

be

inquisitive

and

thorough

with

the

material

finding

and

using

every

resource

that

is

available

He

also

insists

on

perfect

writing

of

research

assignments

from

his

background

in

additional

fields

outside

music

It

is

not

sufficient

to

throw

ideas

together

into

poorly

constructed

sentences

and

paragraphs

with

no

reasonable

connections

of

the

points

The

rhetoric

of

writing

is

as

important

as

the

understanding

of

the

material

Whenever

any

of

us

turned

in

sloppy

work

whether

in

performance

or

writing

he

made

us

do

it

again

and

he

helped

us

make

it

better

with

cogent

recommendations

of

improvement

That

is

a

professors

job

Hes

inspiring

That

too

is

a

professors

job

If

any

of

us

would

merely

mimic

his

playing

or

interpretations

that

would

be

failure

of

his

teaching

Good

teaching

is

not

indoctrination

It

is

inspiration

Edward

Parmentiers

students

do

not

sound

like

him

as

players

He

gives

a

public

concert

on

campus

every

semester

and

he

also

makes

all

his

students

play

solos

in

public

concerts

every

semester

Hearing

all

the

students

one

after

another

its

remarkable

everybody

sounds

very

different

even

when

playing

exactly

the

same

instrument

and

an

instrument

that

has

an

incorrect

reputation

among

nonspecialists

of

being

somehow

inexpressive

or

limited

The

astonishing

thing

is

how

different

all

his

students

sound

He

inspires

each

player

to

come

up

with

a

wellintegrated

approach

of

scholarship

and

practice

which

of

course

will

be

different

for

everybody

This

is

brilliant

and

effective

teaching

So

your

imagination

is

faulty

and

your

guessworkaccusations

about

the

nature

of

graduate

study

are

completely

wrong

Ive

made

it

as

clear

as

I

can

right

here

by

this

example

of

graduate

study

with

an

excellent

teacher

Thomas

Braatz

you

havent

been

there

Stop

making

up

belligerent

nonsense

Stop

accusing

welltrained

musicians

and

scholars

of

being

inadequately

prepared

such

that

you

can

overrule

us

from

your

reference

books

and

your

madeup

explications

of

them

whenever

it

suits

your

fancy

Stop

assuming

you

know

everything

there

is

to

know

about

Bach

and

his

music

just

from

looking

up

stuff

in

reference

And

instead

of

arguing

interminably

about

things

you

really

dont

understand

trying

to

prove

that

you

are

right

and

all

experts

are

wrong

if

youd

just

be

receptive

to

learning

things

once

in

a

while

maybe

youd

learn

some

things

that

are

worth

knowing

with

regard

to

Bach

and

his

music

There

are

quite

a

few

list

members

here

who

know

it

quite

a

bit

better

than

you

do

from

the

perspective

of

practical

experience

both

in

churchconcert

and

in

academia

and

you

could

learn

some

things

by

listening

to

them

Charles

Francis

wrote

October

Thomas

Braatz

wrote

As

I

understand

it

the

best

instruction

that

Bach

ever

gave

to

his

students

was

to

have

them

listen

while

he

played

his

compositions

or

improvised

In

comparison

we

might

say

today

that

a

professor

in

performance

gave

his

graduate

students

some

of

his

Wildboar

recordings

to

listen

to

and

this

would

be

considered

the

same

type

of

formal

instruction

on

a

higher

university

level

as

Bach

the

master

musiciancomposer

gave

his

private

students

Bradley

Lehman

wrote

So

your

imagination

is

faulty

and

your

guessworkaccusations

about

the

nature

of

graduate

study

are

completely

wrong

Ive

made

it

as

clear

as

I

can

right

here

by

this

example

of

graduate

study

with

an

excellent

teacher

Thomas

Braatz

you

havent

been

there

Stop

making

up

belligerent

nonsense

Stop

acusing

well

trained

musicians

and

scholars

of

being

inadequately

prepared

such

that

you

can

overrule

us

from

your

reference

books

and

your

madeup

explications

of

them

whenever

it

suits

your

fancy

Thomas

described

his

understanding

of

the

best

instruction

Bach

could

offer

After

all

if

a

parent

want

a

baby

to

speak

it

must

speak

to

the

child

The

same

is

true

in

music

from

my

experience

What

amazes

me

and

Thomas

as

well

I

imagine

is

those

who

would

take

their

baby

to

language

lessons

to

teach

them

correct

grammar

Thomas

Braatz

wrote

October

Uri

Golomb

wrote

According

to

Jean

Gribenski

Grove

Online

Music

played

a

small

role

in

university

curricula

at

least

until

the

early

century

Here

is

an

example

of

how

researchers

can

easily

create

a

bias

based

upon

insufficient

information

so

that

those

even

those

with

doctorates

in

music

can

be

fooled

into

believing

that

music

education

on

the

university

level

began

with

nothing

in

the

Middle

Ages

and

very

slowly

progressed

to

the

point

of

great

flowering

in

the

and

centuries

The

actual

course

of

events

along

this

timeline

which

describes

the

level

of

activity

for

music

being

taught

at

the

university

level

can

more

correctly

be

seen

as

two

high

points

with

a

valley

between

them

RenaissanceHumanism

allowed

for

significant

th

century

What

happened

was

that

the

Enlightenment

the

Age

of

Reason

with

its

emphasis

upon

the

scientific

aspects

of

every

subject

tried

to

force

music

and

other

arts

into

some

form

of

science

such

as

physics

or

mathematics

Think

of

Gottscheds

misguided

efforts

in

regard

to

poetry

and

also

Mizlers

which

provide

a

direct

reflection

of

precisely

what

was

going

on

in

the

universities

as

they

grappled

with

this

problem

Mizler

even

gave

lectures

at

the

University

of

Leipzig

from

to

on

the

following

subject

Über

die

gelehrte

Historie

der

Musik

but

there

was

no

active

specialized

program

for

music

Mattheson

in

his

Der

vollkommene

Capellmeister

indicated

his

readiness

to

designate

money

in

his

will

toward

reestablishing

a

full

professorship

of

music

at

the

University

of

Leipzig

However

at

the

end

of

the

th

and

beginning

century

some

universities

did

still

hold

onto

the

old

traditions

as

long

as

they

possibly

could

Es

gab

nur

einige

wenige

Universitäten

an

denen

sich

die

Musik

als

akademische

Disziplin

zu

behaupten

vermochte

so

die

Universitäten

Leipzig

Basel

Oxford

Cambridge

und

Uppsala

An

diesen

Universitäten

wurde

die

alte

Tradition

kontinuierlich

weitergeführt

und

unter

anderem

an

der

Satzung

festgehalten

daß

dem

Bakkalaureat

und

dem

Magisterium

ein

erfolgreich

abgeschlossenes

Musikstudium

vorauszugehen

habe

MGG

I

article

on

Universität

und

Musik

by

Heinrich

Hüschen

BärenreiterVerlag

There

were

now

only

a

few

universities

in

Leipzig

Basel

Oxford

Cambridge

and

Uppsala

At

these

universities

the

old

tradition

of

teaching

music

as

part

of

higher

education

and

granting

doctorates

in

music

continued

without

a

break

and

among

other

things

the

requirement

that

a

Bachelors

and

Masters

degree

must

be

preceded

by

a

successfully

concluded

study

of

music

was

adhered

to

So

it

happened

that

the

University

of

Leipzig

experienced

a

hiatus

for

a

number

of

decades

the

dark

ages

for

music

professorship

at

this

university

until

it

was

reestablished

after

Bachs

death

Hüschen

goes

on

to

explain

th

century

Things

began

gradually

to

pick

up

in

Germany

towards

the

end

of

the

century

with

honorary

doctorates

in

music

being

granted

to

J

N

Forkel

in

Göttingen

and

Haydn

in

England

in

Oxford

Here

is

some

history

which

Jean

Gribenski

seems

to

have

overlooked

or

not

even

considered

as

being

important

enough

to

report

on

correctly

Professors

who

taught

music

at

the

university

level

At

the

University

of

Heidelberg

Marsilius

died

Magister

Artium

gave

lectures

on

music

at

this

university

Conrad

von

Zabern

c

Music

Theory

received

his

Magister

Artium

in

The

following

professors

gave

lectures

on

music

at

this

university

Ludwig

Runge

Professor

of

Rhetorik

gave

a

series

of

lectures

in

on

music

Jakob

Runge

Professor

of

Theology

in

also

on

music

Peter

Eddelink

Magister

Artium

lectured

c

on

music

Konrad

Tuburtius

Rango

Professor

of

Theology

Rektor

of

the

entire

University

wrote

on

the

subject

of

music

University

of

Freiburg

im

Breisgau

Dietrich

Gresemund

Humanist

Baccalaureus

Artium

wrote

on

the

subject

of

Music

Othmar

Luscinius

Theory

and

Composition

Baccalaureus

Artium

Lorenz

Lemlin

um

Composer

who

had

achieved

his

Baccalaureus

Artium

in

Similar

lists

to

those

above

describe

the

situations

at

the

universities

at

Mainz

Cologne

Paris

Basel

Wittenberg

Erfurt

Leipzig

Frankfurt

an

der

Oder

Jena

and

Rostock

Uri

continued

to

quote

Gribenski

goes

on

to

describe

the

role

that

music

filled

in

universities

even

though

it

wasnt

a

subject

of

study

mentioning

that

In

Leipzig

a

special

arrangement

developed

by

which

the

Kantor

of

the

Thomaskirche

also

took

charge

of

university

music

which

formed

a

regular

part

of

JS

Bachs

duties

The

fact

is

that

after

only

a

year

or

so

these

university

duties

were

taken

away

from

Bach

In

die

Trennung

des

Thomaskantorats

vom

Amt

des

Universitäts

MusikDirektors

the

separation

of

the

St

Thomas

Cantorship

director

of

choirs

from

the

official

position

of

Director

of

Music

at

the

University

of

Leipzig

took

place

The

improper

implication

of

Gribenskis

statement

is

that

Bach

throughout

his

tenure

in

Leipzig

was

always

responsible

for

the

directorship

of

music

at

the

university

as

part

of

his

normal

duties

The

truth

is

that

Bachs

contact

with

university

students

in

performance

or

private

instruction

throughout

Another

respondent

on

this

list

has

warned

repeatedly

that

the

average

amateur

Bachlovers

without

degrees

in

musicmusicology

are

unable

to

quote

sources

responsibly

because

they

do

not

know

how

to

select

and

apply

them

judiciously

with

the

superior

understanding

that

can

only

derive

from

long

study

of

the

subject

at

an

accredited

university

What

do

the

above

errorprone

observations

thrown

out

as

evidence

or

proof

illustrate

Are

these

just

insignificant

but

excusable

aberrations

on

the

part

of

Gribenski

or

Golomb

Should

not

those

with

Music

Doctorates

be

held

to

a

greater

accountability

just

because

they

are

so

critical

of

comments

Bradley

Lehman

wrote

October

Charles

Francis

wrote

Thomas

described

his

understanding

of

the

best

instruction

Bach

could

offer

After

all

if

a

parent

want

a

baby

to

speak

it

must

speak

to

the

child

The

same

is

true

in

music

from

my

experience

What

amazes

me

and

Thomas

as

well

I

imagine

is

those

who

would

take

their

baby

to

language

lessons

to

teach

them

correct

grammar

Yes

Im

interested

to

hear

what

my

baby

comes

up

with

in

a

couple

of

years

We

sing

to

her

every

day

and

she

goes

to

weekly

music

lessons

outside

the

house

Perhaps

most

influentially

she

hears

Bachs

Couperins

Frobergers

and

other

fine

music

played

live

in

Bachs

own

tuning

every

day

by

her

father

at

home

She

plays

on

it

herself

too

whenever

she

feels

like

trying

something

on

the

harpsichord

We

do

it

because

it

sounds

beautiful

and

because

playing

music

every

day

is

a

natural

household

activity

to

do

Shes

in

the

only

household

anywhere

in

the

world

where

this

is

true

or

has

ever

been

done

since

the

th

century

so

far

having

that

everyday

tuning

resource

available

anytime

to

try

out

any

music

My

clavichord

is

tuned

that

way

too

but

she

doesnt

try

it

yet

When

she

inquires

about

the

details

of

what

shes

hearing

Ill

tell

her

as

much

of

the

technical

info

as

she

cares

to

know

Best

until

then

is

to

have

the

sound

itself

by

immersion

every

day

the

most

natural

way

to

learn

it

The

method

certainly

worked

well

for

CPE

Bach

and

his

siblings

and

led

to

some

great

achievements

by

them

although

they

also

had

some

direct

musical

instruction

from

And

if

youre

going

to

go

and

on

most

predictably

about

how

Im

attempting

to

prove

a

negative

here

in

my

statement

above

about

it

being

the

only

household

where

this

tuning

is

in

use

since

the

century

go

bite

yourself

That

specific

sound

at

Bachs

house

has

been

lost

since

the

century

I

know

pretty

well

when

and

why

and

have

documented

these

findings

along

with

my

reconstruction

of

the

method

The

information

will

soon

be

available

to

the

public

for

other

households

to

try

this

for

themselves

Until

then

I

know

the

several

other

people

who

have

been

given

advance

copies

of

the

work

for

their

study

and

use

and

they

dont

have

small

children

at

home

QED

Unless

somebody

has

been

able

to

reverseengineer

it

from

concerts

or

a

radio

broadcast

where

they

werent

told

ahead

of

time

what

theyre

hearing

and

where

no

special

attention

was

drawn

to

the

tuning

at

all

Very

unlikely

as

the

details

are

extremely

subtle

Uri

Golomb

wrote

October

Uri

Golomb

wrote

According

to

Jean

Gribenski

Grove

Online

Music

played

a

small

role

in

university

curricula

at

least

until

the

early

century

Ill

admit

immediately

that

I

made

one

mistake

here

one

for

which

I

owe

a

genuine

apology

The

article

on

Universities

was

divided

between

several

authors

Contrary

to

my

initial

misreading

the

part

I

quoted

from

was

not

authored

by

Jean

Gribenski

the

real

author

is

William

Weber

This

was

a

genuine

oversight

on

my

part

and

for

this

I

apologise

to

fellow

listmembers

and

of

course

to

the

two

authors

particularly

Weber

who

deserved

the

credit

for

the

quotes

I

introduced

Thomas

Braatz

wrote

Here

is

an

example

of

how

researchers

can

easily

create

a

bias

based

upon

insufficient

information

so

that

those

even

those

with

doctorates

in

music

can

be

fooled

into

believing

that

music

education

on

the

university

level

began

with

nothing

in

the

Middle

Ages

and

very

slowly

progressed

to

the

point

of

great

flowering

in

the

and

centuries

Neither

I

nor

Weber

were

making

any

such

claim

Webers

article

is

devoted

to

music

in

universities

in

and

the

section

I

quoted

from

is

restricted

to

The

periods

before

and

after

were

treated

by

other

authors

Gribenski

wrote

the

article

on

French

universities

the

middle

ages

and

the

Renaissance

were

treated

by

Christopher

Page

as

anyone

who

has

access

either

to

the

printed

edition

of

available

in

many

libraries

or

to

could

ascertain

Most

of

the

information

that

Braatz

has

provided

falls

outside

the

chronological

scope

of

Webers

article

and

having

My

point

was

even

more

limited

I

was

referring

solely

to

whether

Bach

had

the

option

of

taking

a

university

course

in

music

in

his

lifetime

The

answer

AFAIK

is

no

And

as

I

said

we

simply

dont

know

what

Bach

would

have

done

if

he

had

such

an

option

Thats

the

only

point

I

was

making

In

any

case

rather

than

complain

to

me

why

not

write

directly

to

Grove

Online

There

is

a

feedback

facility

on

their

website

if

anyone

believes

there

is

a

mistake

in

they

are

welcome

to

voice

that

opinion

to

the

dictionarys

editorial

board

though

of

course

the

editors

will

not

accept

all

corrections

at

face

value

Thomas

Braatz

wrote

October

I

had

originally

stated

Niedt

was

a

musical

theorist

we

have

no

documented

music

from

his

pen

who

believed

completely

in

the

galant

style

and

abhorred

all

contrapuntal

sacred

compositions

To

which

Bradley

Lehman

retorted

That

must

be

a

joke

or

else

a

gross

misunderstanding

by

you

or

maybe

both

Friedrich

Niedt

died

in

which

is

long

before

the

galant

style

as

you

well

know

Weve

been

through

all

this

in

previous

discussion

The

preparation

of

the

galant

style

begain

quite

early

in

the

century

while

Niedt

was

still

alive

In

some

ways

he

was

an

early

pioneer

as

can

be

seen

from

the

evidence

presented

in

his

books

and

which

I

will

quote

below

BL

Furthermore

as

you

made

clear

in

earlier

discussion

your

only

exposure

to

Niedt

yourself

has

been

thirdhand

through

an

old

MGG

article

that

has

led

you

to

believe

so

willingly

to

dismiss

Niedt

as

you

dont

like

what

he

had

to

say

that

he

was

some

sort

of

incompetent

George

J

Buelow

who

wrote

the

article

on

Friedrich

Erhard

Niedt

at

least

twentyfive

years

ago

has

not

bothered

to

update

his

article

in

the

Grove

Music

Online

dictionary

Oxford

University

Press

accessed

other

than

adding

the

HJ

Schulze

article

from

which

spins

the

fine

thread

that

supposedly

connects

Bachs

own

bc

instructions

with

those

of

Niedt

which

were

copied

by

a

student

Nowhere

on

this

document

is

Bachs

imprimatur

in

the

form

of

a

signature

or

correction

in

his

handwriting

Would

Bach

not

correct

basic

obvious

errors

regarding

the

rules

of

bc

rather

than

leave

his

The

MGG

article

is

far

preferable

in

that

it

gives

the

reader

some

additional

insight

that

Buelows

rather

bland

treatment

does

not

BL

Well

Bach

didnt

consider

him

an

incompetent

only

you

do

Bach

taught

his

own

students

from

Niedts

written

materials

Thats

documented

fact

With

all

the

glaring

errors

left

uncorrected

This

seems

quite

unlikely

if

Bach

the

careful

teacher

had

any

involvement

in

this

at

all

BL

I

believe

Bachs

teaching

ahead

of

yours

Bach

knew

the

material

and

he

was

right

there

So

you

were

there

with

him

and

saw

him

simply

pass

over

the

glaring

errors

saying

to

himself

This

will

be

a

good

test

for

my

pupilsstudents

Let

them

find

the

errors

themselves

which

they

obviously

never

did

If

I

were

a

professor

of

music

at

the

Leipzig

University

I

would

of

course

spare

them

the

long

agonizing

hours

which

autodidacts

necessarily

would

have

to

spend

in

discovering

what

was

wrong

with

the

rules

that

I

Niedt

gave

them

BL

And

you

have

no

idea

what

Niedt

believed

completely

in

We

have

his

own

printed

words

and

picturesque

expressions

that

speak

for

him

unless

of

course

you

want

to

call

these

forgeries

that

were

perpetrated

to

assassinate

his

character

Here

are

some

basic

facts

most

of

which

are

omitted

in

the

Buelow

article

perhaps

he

is

just

being

very

careful

by

towing

the

line

and

not

stirring

up

and

creating

doubts

about

a

certain

rather

feeble

connection

between

Bachs

methods

of

instruction

and

Niedts

rules

of

musical

grammar

Friedrich

Erhard

Niedt

was

never

a

fulltime

musician

or

composer

he

was

a

wannabee

Music

was

an

avocation

for

him

and

he

was

very

disappointed

when

he

failed

to

win

the

position

of

organist

at

St

Nicholas

Church

in

Copenhagen

His

primary

occupation

for

many

years

was

as

a

notary

public

Fritz

Oberdörffer

the

author

of

the

MGG

article

on

Niedt

concludes

from

examining

the

examples

of

composition

arias

primarily

included

in

his

books

that

Niedts

compositions

never

rose

above

the

level

of

dry

mediocrity

The

final

nail

in

Niedts

coffin

is

his

statement

that

he

considered

all

aspects

Bärenheuterey

explained

below

and

that

he

personally

banned

all

forms

of

fugues

and

allelujas

from

his

own

cantatas

he

never

got

very

far

along

in

his

projected

first

year

cycle

of

cantatas

because

all

they

fugal

compositions

using

counterpoint

do

is

arouse

feelings

of

disgust

and

annoyancevexation

This

type

of

thinking

and

strong

reservations

about

the

utility

or

even

pleasure

that

can

be

gained

from

listening

to

Bachs

choral

works

which

illustrate

the

glorious

effects

created

by

such

fugues

was

later

reechoed

by

Scheibe

in

his

criticism

of

Bachs

music

Niedt

serves

as

the

beginning

of

the

wave

of

style

galant

that

swept

over

Germany

during

the

st

half

of

the

th

century

only

to

be

reversed

in

itcourse

in

the

latter

half

of

the

same

century

when

what

was

originally

considered

as

contrapuntal

fetters

began

to

turn

back

toward

appreciating

full

fugal

counterpoint

over

the

vacuity

of

the

shortphrased

melody

suspended

over

a

bass

line

with

nothing

much

of

interest

in

between

Here

is

a

quotation

from

an

article

by

Daniel

Heartz

and

Bruce

Alan

Brown

on

the

wave

or

bubble

created

by

style

galant

a

wave

or

bubble

which

could

not

sustain

itself

because

of

its

insipid

nature

Grove

Music

Online

Oxford

University

Press

acc

Defenders

of

the

old

contrapuntal

virtues

were

heard

from

more

and

more

as

the

century

reached

its

last

third

with

the

onset

of

an

antigalant

reaction

Parallels

may

be

observed

with

the

turn

against

the

Rococo

style

in

art

and

the

rise

of

Sturm

und

Drang

in

literature

Adlung

complained

that

murky

basses

and

Galanterien

were

being

heard

even

in

church

In

the

article

on

melody

in

Sulzers

encyclopedia

written

with

advice

from

Kirnberger

pleasant

socalled

galanterie

pieces

and

their

very

small

phrases

or

segments

are

said

to

be

appropriate

for

light

flattering

passions

but

out

of

place

in

The

galant

idiom

freed

composers

from

the

contrapuntal

fetters

of

the

church

style

to

some

degree

even

in

the

context

of

church

music

its

simplicities

and

miniaturistic

nature

imposed

new

fetters

which

in

turn

were

thrown

off

with

the

reintegration

of

more

contrapuntal

means

in

the

obbligato

homophony

that

matured

in

the

last

three

decades

of

the

century

This

may

seem

picky

but

I

find

it

instructive

as

to

just

how

perverse

Niedts

instructions

can

be

Niedts

notion

of

Andante

was

that

this

was

a

tempo

gantz

Regarding

the

musical

form

canon

Walter

Blankenburg

MGG

Vol

states

that

Niedt

was

barely

able

to

comprehend

the

canon

and

could

not

see

what

use

it

really

had

in

any

good

music

In

Niedts

Musicalisches

ABC

Hamburg

he

explains

basic

things

about

notation

gives

some

exercises

using

intervals

and

concludes

with

a

few

very

simply

arias

just

a

few

of

which

have

an

obligato

instrument

At

the

end

of

the

book

Niedt

relates

rather

extensively

a

recipe

for

a

chest

balm

a

kind

of

Vicks

Vaporub

to

alleviate

or

cure

a

chest

cold

Bärenheuterey

This

colorful

word

used

by

Niedt

to

describe

the

disgusting

vocal

fugues

occurring

in

church

cantatas

has

the

following

meanings

as

indicated

by

the

DWB

Something

which

is

a

complete

waste

of

time

in

other

words

completely

useless

It

does

not

fulfill

a

useful

function

and

is

spiritless

It

gives

poor

results

It

is

morally

worthless

because

of

its

excesses

There

is

a

want

or

lack

of

skill

in

it

It

is

generally

unsuccessful

I

am

beginning

to

expect

that

some

musicologists

will

be

willing

to

ignore

all

this

information

in

the

hope

that

they

may

still

be

able

to

support

their

preconceived

notion

about

the

strong

NiedtBach

connection

because

it

still

seems

to

suit

their

purpose

at

this

time

Anyone

with

a

truly

open

mind

should

be

able

to

form

an

opinion

about

Niedts

role

in

the

early

century

Certainly

in

this

case

more

information

MGG

is

better

than

less

information

New

Grove

Dictionary

of

Music

and

Musicians

in

an

article

that

has

not

been

revised

or

rewritten

but

has

Thomas

Braatz

wrote

October

Uri

Golomb

had

written

According

to

Jean

Gribenski

Grove

Online

Music

played

a

small

role

in

university

curricula

at

least

until

the

early

century

and

Uri

responded

Ill

admit

immediately

that

I

made

one

mistake

hereone

for

which

I

owe

a

genuine

apology

Apology

accepted

I

can

easily

understand

how

the

greater

context

with

various

writers

responsible

for

different

sections

of

a

long

article

can

lead

to

what

might

be

an

incorrect

interpretation

once

the

quote

is

removed

from

its

source

and

not

sufficiently

explained

to

the

reader

What

about

the

other

obvious

mistake

again

one

of

Gribenskis

statements

In

Leipzig

a

special

arrangement

developed

by

which

the

Kantor

of

the

Thomaskirche

also

took

charge

of

university

music

which

formed

a

regular

part

of

JS

Bachs

duties

The

point

you

were

trying

to

make

here

was

that

Bach

was

a

quasifaculty

member

who

was

in

essence

the

director

of

musical

activities

at

the

Leipzig

University

for

as

the

statement

above

implies

the

duration

of

his

tenure

in

Leipzig

Is

this

another

statement

out

of

context

or

is

Gribenski

unaware

of

the

real

situation

that

pertained

to

this

limited

circumstance

Bradley

Lehman

wrote

October

To

Thomas

Braatz

I

nominate

Thomas

posting

below

as

the

most

sanctimonious

and

patronizing

piece

Ive

seen

in

The

sentence

after

Apology

accepted

including

the

notion

that

he

himself

is

well

placed

to

judge

incorrect

interpretation

and

the

reiteration

of

a

supposedly

obvious

mistake

by

Gribenski

and

way

Thomas

then

lectures

Golomb

on

the

point

he

believes

Golomb

was

trying

to

make

here

Once

again

its

all

about

Thomas

trying

to

assert

himself

above

real

scholarship

asserting

that

everybody

except

himself

is

ignorant

and

unaware

especially

if

they

have

degrees

and

unwilling

to

offer

apologies

for

any

of

the

astoundingly

profound

and

petty

insults

he

deals

to

the

field

day

after

day

Nor

does

he

offer

any

sort

of

apology

for

the

patronizing

chiding

he

has

offered

to

both

Golomb

and

Gribenski

but

instead

he

TURNS

IT

UP

a

notch

and

repeats

it

As

to

responsibility

to

the

material

and

the

expectations

of

accuracy

the

double

standard

here

doesnt

even

bother

him

indeed

Bradley

Lehman

wrote

October

Thomas

Braatz

wrote

Here

are

some

basic

facts

most

of

which

are

omitted

in

the

Buelow

article

perhaps

he

is

just

being

very

careful

by

towing

the

line

and

not

stirring

up

and

creating

doubts

about

a

certain

rather

feeble

connection

between

Bachs

methods

of

instruction

and

Niedts

rules

of

musical

grammar

Friedrich

Erhard

Niedt

was

never

a

fulltime

musician

or

composer

he

was

a

wannabee

Music

was

an

avocation

for

him

and

he

was

very

disappointed

when

he

failed

to

win

the

position

of

organist

at

St

Nicholas

Church

in

Copenhagen

So

your

conclusion

is

that

nonmusicians

and

noncomposers

should

not

teach

musical

principles

Just

trying

to

be

clear

here

Were

supposed

to

dismiss

outright

everything

that

Niedt

wrote

because

according

to

you

he

was

a

wannabee

but

were

supposed

to

listen

to

and

believe

everything

that

a

wannabee

music

critic

and

pseudomusicologist

puts

up

for

consideration

even

though

he

hasnt

presented

any

compositions

let

alone

mediocre

ones

or

any

evidence

of

having

ever

held

any

musical

post

whatsoever

Why

the

double

standard

You

can

tell

us

that

Niedt

was

a

loser

all

you

want

to

to

your

own

amusement

It

still

doesnt

prove

that

he

was

wrong

about

any

particular

point

Nor

does

it

prove

that

your

own

overruling

of

Niedt

has

any

credibility

according

to

your

own

standards

of

judging

the

credibility

of

sources

Nor

does

it

prove

that

Bach

was

either

stupid

or

wrong

in

using

some

of

Niedts

material

in

his

teaching

Furthermore

you

know

very

well

or

at

least

it

seems

so

if

logical

reasoning

has

any

place

here

that

the

arguments

about

basso

continuo

practice

do

not

stand

or

fall

solely

on

the

credibility

or

accuracy

Niedt

or

any

interpretation

of

his

work

Its

part

of

a

comprehensive

body

of

corroborating

evidence

about

normal

practices

in

the

recitative

genre

and

you

cant

destroy

the

overall

argument

itself

by

assassinating

a

single

data

point

The

people

who

have

built

that

argument

about

verifiable

common

practice

are

not

stupid

no

matter

how

much

you

assert

without

evidence

your

superiority

over

them

Therefore

the

continued

attempt

at

destruction

of

Niedt

by

your

hand

really

accomplishes

nothing

except

to

embarrass

yourself

with

inconsistent

reasoning

If

your

contention

really

is

that

wannabees

should

be

muzzled

from

teaching

musical

principles

in

public

then

take

your

own

premise

consistently

Thomas

Braatz

wrote

October

Bradley

Lehman

wrote

Furthermore

you

know

very

well

or

at

least

it

seems

so

if

logical

reasoning

has

any

place

here

that

the

arguments

about

basso

continuo

practice

do

not

stand

or

fall

solely

on

the

credibility

or

accuracy

of

Niedt

or

any

interpretation

of

his

work

Its

part

of

a

comprehensive

body

of

corroborating

evidence

about

normal

practices

in

the

recitative

genre

and

you

cant

destroy

the

overall

argument

itself

by

assassinating

a

single

data

point

The

shortened

bc

accompaniment

in

Bachs

secco

recitatives

A

crucial

element

of

the

ScheringMendelLeonhardtHarnoncourt

doctrine

Seriously

you

dont

really

want

to

go

there

again

do

you

Such

a

discussion

would

probably

uncover

even

more

evidence

of

incredibly

bad

scholarship

on

the

part

of

those

who

should

have

known

better

Bradley

Lehman

wrote

October

To

Thomas

Braatz

Remember

that

scene

near

the

end

where

the

Wicked

Witch

of

the

West

takes

it

upon

herself

to

try

to

burn

up

a

straw

man

among

other

dastardly

deeds

against

common

decent

folk

and

gets

a

bucket

of

cold

water

in

the

face

Cold

water

is

normally

harmless

enough

but

not

if

the

attacker

has

poor

molecular

cohesion

Dorian

Gray

wrote

October

Thomas

described

his

understanding

of

the

best

instruction

Bach

could

offer

After

all

if

a

parent

want

a

baby

to

speak

it

must

speak

to

the

child

The

same

is

true

in

music

from

my

experience

What

amazes

me

and

Thomas

as

well

I

imagine

is

those

who

would

take

their

baby

to

language

lessons

to

teach

them

correct

grammar

I

could

easily

echo

your

sentiments

Charles

Shinichi

Suzuki

taught

music

according

to

what

he

called

the

mothertongue

method

Early

education

in

particular

depends

on

repeated

exposure

to

a

model

as

the

best

form

of

education

Is

it

any

wonder

that

people

grow

up

with

the

talents

and

skills

of

their

parents

Some

are

still

sure

this

is

due

to

biological

inheritance

but

all

true

teachers

and

good

parents

know

otherwise

No

expert

could

teach

an

adult

to

acquire

truly

excellent

speech

if

his

parents

had

utterly

failed

to

provide

a

good

model

barring

the

possibility

of

a

miracle

However

Thomas

Braatz

wrote

October

Famous

Baroque

Autodidacts

Great

Baroque

Composers

as

Autodidacts

From

an

article

on

Deutschland

Barock

Germany

during

the

Baroque

Era

by

Friedrich

Blume

MGG

I

Bärenreiter

Im

ganzen

war

der

Bildungsstand

des

Musikers

hoch

und

erstreckte

sich

weit

über

bloße

Fachkenntnis

hinaus

in

sprachliche

philosophische

theologische

oft

auch

mathematische

oder

juristische

Disziplinen

Erst

mit

dem

Jahrhundert

treten

zunehmend

empirische

nurmusikalische

Ausbildungen

an

die

Stelle

der

alten

Gelehrtenerziehung

Bach

Händel

und

Telemann

waren

Männer

von

hoher

Allgemeinbildung

aber

keiner

von

ihnen

hatte

mehr

ein

UniversitätsStudium

durchlaufen

The

level

of

musicians

generally

went

far

beyond

simply

mastering

specialist

knowledge

of

music

specifically

often

to

include

as

well

understanding

of

other

disciplines

such

as

foreign

language

philosophy

theology

and

even

mathematics

or

law

Not

until

the

century

did

the

empirical

purely

musical

trainingeducation

increasingly

take

the

place

of

the

old

academic

higher

education

Bach

Händel

and

Telemann

were

men

of

a

greaterthanaverage

educationculture

but

of

them

had

passed

throughundergone

a

formal

university

education

Händel

the

CollegeUniversity

Dropout

From

an

article

on

G

F

Händel

by

Joseph

MüllerBlattau

in

the

MGG

Bärenreiter

Fest

steht

daß

die

musikalische

Begabung

des

Knaben

früh

erwachte

daß

aber

der

Vater

die

Musikausübung

nicht

duldete

weil

er

den

Sohn

für

den

bürgerlichen

und

gelehrten

Beruf

des

Juristen

bestimmt

hatte

One

thing

is

certain

that

the

boys

referring

to

G

F

Händel

gift

for

music

was

awakened

early

on

but

that

his

father

could

not

tolerate

his

sons

musical

activities

because

he

the

father

had

already

determined

that

his

son

should

pursue

the

middleclass

learned

profession

of

a

lawyer

Because

the

Duke

of

Weissenfels

intervened

and

persuaded

the

Händels

father

to

relent

Händel

became

an

apprentice

under

FW

Zachow

from

whom

he

learned

harmony

to

cultivate

his

imagination

and

to

form

his

taste

He

also

learned

to

play

various

instruments

Most

important

was

the

study

of

the

examples

of

music

written

by

other

composers

from

various

countries

All

of

this

took

place

on

a

level

equivalent

to

that

of

other

trades

carpenter

mason

miller

etc

and

not

at

a

university

level

where

other

subjects

such

as

Latin

would

be

required

of

a

student

On

February

G

F

Händel

registered

as

a

student

at

the

University

of

Halle

After

a

year

he

broke

off

his

studies

permanently

and

went

to

Hamburg

where

he

became

acquainted

with

Mattheson

and

the

opera

After

this

point

Händel

was

completely

independent

This

was

the

extent

of

his

formal

education

which

consisted

mainly

of

study

at

the

tradeschool

level

with

an

excellent

teacher

who

had

no

university

degrees

whatsoever

and

just

one

year

at

the

university

level

before

dropping

out

entirely

Telemann

the

Pure

Autodidact

From

an

article

on

Telemann

in

the

MGG

I

Bärenreiter

Martin

Ruhnke

writes

Im

Gegensatz

zu

GF

Händel

ist

Telemann

niemals

durch

einen

tüchtigen

Lehrer

in

das

Musikhandwerk

eingeführt

worden

sondern

hat

sich

als

Autodidakt

seine

Fertigkeit

in

der

Komposition

und

im

InstrumentenSpiel

angeeignet

Im

Gegensatz

zu

JS

Bach

war

er

nach

seiner

Herkunft

und

nach

der

Lebensstellung

seiner

Vorfahren

keineswegs

zum

Musiker

prädestiniert

sondern

er

hat

diesen

Beruf

zu

dem

er

sich

von

Gott

und

Natur

bestimmt

fühlte

gegen

den

beharrlichen

Widerstand

seiner

Verwandten

gewählt

In

contrast

to

G

F

Händel

Telemann

had

never

been

given

a

proper

introduction

into

musical

craftsmanship

by

a

competent

teacher

but

rather

had

to

achieve

his

proficiency

in

composition

and

in

playing

instruments

as

an

autodidact

In

contrast

to

J

S

Bach

he

was

not

even

predestined

to

become

a

musician

by

virtue

of

his

family

origins

and

the

professional

positions

of

his

forebears

but

rather

it

became

necessary

for

him

to

choose

this

profession

as

musiciancomposer

for

which

he

felt

was

determined

by

God

and

his

own

nature

despite

the

continuous

resistance

of

his

relatives

J

S

Bach

a

Musical

Tradesman

with

a

Good

Family

Environment

Bachs

family

ties

consisted

of

a

number

of

fairly

wellknown

musicianscomposers

but

his

father

provided

that

part

of

the

Bach

clan

branch

that

was

primarily

devoted

to

the

Spielmannshandwerk

playing

music

as

a

tradesman

member

of

the

entertainment

trade

the

lowest

class

of

musicians

such

as

fiddlers

and

town

musicians

Comment

by

Friedrich

Blume

in

his

article

on

J

S

Bach

in

the

MGG

I

Bärenreiter

Christoph

Wolff

in

his

biographical

article

on

Bach

in

the

Grove

Music

Online

Oxford

University

Press

acc

gives

information

about

the

following

aspects

of

J

S

Bachs

musical

and

general

education

which

did

not

include

university

studies

of

any

kind

Training

within

the

Family

Music

as

a

Craft

Family

Training

as

a

Gu

In

the

Bach

family

itself

sound

average

competence

was

the

norm

Only

a

few

of

its

members

achieved

anything

extraordinary

and

most

of

those

who

did

left

Thuringia

The

unusual

concentration

of

musical

gifts

within

one

family

in

such

a

narrow

regional

context

has

long

interested

students

of

genealogy

heredity

and

talent

The

continual

reappearance

of

musical

gifts

through

the

generations

with

an

increasingly

large

and

then

suddenly

declining

number

of

prominent

family

members

culminating

in

the

remarkable

figure

of

Johann

Sebastian

Bach

remains

a

unique

phenomenon

An

essential

prerequisite

for

the

development

of

such

a

dynasty

was

certainly

a

general

attitude

to

music

as

a

craft

to

be

learnt

so

that

the

careers

of

male

family

members

were

more

or

less

decided

from

early

childhood

Musical

training

In

a

selfcontained

circle

of

this

kind

which

was

in

the

nature

of

a

guild

it

was

natural

for

relationships

with

other

musical

families

and

intermarriage

with

them

to

be

frequent

There

were

other

families

of

musicians

in

Thuringia

if

not

as

extensive

as

the

Bach

family

itself

They

included

the

Hoffmann

family

of

Suhl

and

the

Schmidt

family

of

Eisenach

A

series

of

marriages

took

place

with

these

two

families

Johannes

and

his

brother

Heinrich

both

married

daughters

of

the

Hoffmann

family

Johann

Christian

and

Johann

Aegidius

married

daughters

of

the

Schmidt

family

Johann

Sebastian

himself

is

a

typical

The

family

was

very

close

because

of

its

shared

social

standing

and

musical

interests

Their

social

status

as

outsiders

for

in

the

century

musicians

did

not

normally

have

rights

of

citizenship

and

their

strict

religious

views

were

other

important

features

Some

of

the

family

members

even

showed

a

tendency

towards

sectarianism

Family

gatherings

were

held

regularly

and

must

have

resembled

smallscale

music

festivals

Bachs

Formal

Schooling

Grade

School

and

High

School

His

ModelMusiciansComposers

Eisenach

After

the

time

of

the

Reformation

all

children

in

Eisenach

were

obliged

to

go

to

school

between

the

ages

of

five

and

and

although

there

is

no

documentary

evidence

of

it

Sebastian

must

have

entered

one

of

the

towns

German

schools

in

From

he

attended

the

Lateinschule

as

had

Luther

also

an

Eisenach

boy

this

offered

a

sound

humanistic

and

theological

education

His

musical

education

is

matter

for

conjecture

presumably

his

father

taught

him

the

rudiments

of

string

playing

but

according

to

Emanuel

he

had

no

formal

tuition

on

keyboard

instruments

until

he

went

to

Ohrdruf

Ohrdruf

Sebastian

stayed

on

until

when

he

was

nearly

and

thus

came

under

the

influence

of

an

exceptionally

enlightened

curriculum

Inspired

by

the

educationist

Comenius

it

embraced

religion

reading

writing

arithmetic

singing

history

and

natural

science

Pachelbel

Bach

studied

models

provided

by

Pachelbels

compositions

also

through

his

brother

Johann

Christophs

organ

playing

his

brother

is

not

known

to

have

been

a

composer

No

formal

instruction

by

Pachelbel

CPE

Bach

maintained

about

Johann

Christoph

in

his

fathers

obituary

that

his

father

had

his

first

keyboard

lessons

from

Christoph

at

Ohrdruf

in

replying

to

Forkel

he

said

that

Christoph

might

have

trained

him

simply

as

an

organist

and

that

Sebastian

became

a

pure

and

strong

fuguist

through

his

own

efforts

That

is

likely

enough

Christoph

is

not

known

to

have

been

a

composer

through

his

own

efforts

autodidact

Lüneburg

At

school

a

high

school

in

Lüneburg

Bachs

studies

embraced

orthodox

Lutheranism

logic

rhetoric

Latin

and

Greek

arithmetic

history

geography

and

German

poetry

Georg

Böhm

it

is

not

clear

perhaps

even

rather

unlikely

whether

any

formal

teacherstudent

relationship

existed

between

Böhm

and

Bach

but

the

latter

may

have

heard

his

playing

or

viewed

some

of

his

compositions

and

there

is

evidence

of

a

collegial

relationship

much

later

on

Vincent

Lübeck

it

is

unclear

and

rather

unlikely

that

Bach

heard

him

personally

hence

no

formal

instruction

possible

J

A

Reincken

Bach

may

have

heard

him

play

but

did

not

meet

him

until

There

was

no

formal

instruction

from

this

master

Arnstadt

Dietrich

Buxtehude

Bach

went

to

Lübeck

to

hear

Buxtehude

and

stayed

for

months

to

see

if

there

was

any

chance

that

he

might

succeed

him

There

is

no

evidence

of

formal

instruction

Other

than

instruction

within

the

family

circle

and

some

years

of

formal

schooling

as

a

boy

Bach

was

essentially

selftaught

without

even

a

master

musiciancomposer

to

teach

him

as

in

the

case

of

Händel

hence

without

any

university

study

of

any

kind

Bach

was

essentially

an

autodidact

Eric

Bergerud

wrote

October

To

Uri

Golomb

According

to

Boyd

Bach

would

not

have

pursued

a

proper

University

education

because

he

had

no

desire

to

be

a

lawyer

Wolfe

points

out

that

although

we

have

no

certain

extant

works

from

this

period

that

Bach

was

already

gotten

the

attention

of

many

of

the

musically

informed

in

Germany

and

that

he

was

extremely

well

placed

for

the

career

he

wanted

Wolfe

suggests

the

possibility

of

the

Toccata

and

Fugue

in

D

may

have

had

its

origin

in

this

period

when

Bach

was

already

considered

a

keyboard

virtuoso

No

mention

is

made

in

either

book

As

far

as

Bach

abandoning

Christianity

this

is

a

real

stretch

In

his

late

period

check

Wolfes

article

about

reevaluating

the

last

period

of

Bachs

career

Bach

continued

in

his

position

at

Leipzig

which

continued

to

require

that

he

see

that

Church

music

was

performed

The

fact

that

he

didnt

continue

to

compose

cantatas

at

the

old

rate

is

anyones

guess

maybe

we

should

marvel

at

the

scale

of

his

earlier

output

That

said

he

reworked

several

pieces

and

did

put

together

the

Mass

in

B

no

small

thing

Furthermore

there

is

no

reason

to

think

that

Bach

would

have

David

Glenn

Lebut

Jr

wrote

October

To

Eric

Bergerud

I

would

disagree

with

you

about

Bach

not

wanting

to

continue

his

education

He

made

sure

that

his

sons

had

what

he

did

not

The

other

side

of

the

matter

as

I

have

said

is

that

even

if

he

did

want

to

continue

in

his

education

and

he

had

said

from

what

I

have

read

and

heard

as

much

in

later

years

he

was

barred

from

it

because

of

his

socioeconomic

standing

or

in

laymans

terms

there

was

no

money

to

support

such

a

move

A

Law

degree

back

then

did

not

necessarilly

mean

that

the

recipient

Bach

wrote

October

While

in

no

way

attempting

to

take

a

position

on

this

issue

except

that

IMO

the

derivation

of

autodidact

ought

to

be

take

literally

in

this

contextie

selftaughtI

offer

the

following

Solitary

reading

is

worse

than

solitary

drinking

Dr

Mortimer

Adler

Ludwig

wrote

October

To

Bach

Just

how

is

this

Dr

Adlerthe

noted

Psychologist

or

psychoanalyst

and

associate

of

Freud

People

who

are

able

to

teach

themselves

show

great

creativity

and

greater

depth

of

thinking

and

intelligence

than

someone

who

sits

down

with

another

party

and

nonthinking

accepts

everything

the

book

says

The

autodidact

on

the

other

hand

knows

and

understands

theory

and

practicality

as

opposed

to

accepting

it

blindly

because

the

autodidact

had

to

learn

these

things

in

order

to

teach

themselves

There

is

much

snobbery

and

discrimination

against

autodidacts

but

some

of

the

worlds

greatest

writers

thinkers

artists

and

scientists

have

been

autodidacts

They

include

Leonardo

da

Vinci

Thomas

Edison

Thomas

Jefferson

the

Wright

BrothersBenjamin

Franklin

and

the

list

goes

on

and

on

I

would

assume

that

those

snobs

who

poke

fun

at

self

learningteaching

are

doing

so

because

they

realize

just

how

stupid

and

inane

that

they

are

and

do

so

out

of

jealousy

and

covetousness

The

definition

of

formal

study

Teri

Noel

Towe

wrote

October

Again

I

refer

you

to

formal

study

Private

instruction

would

not

be

considered

formal

study

Hence

the

difference

between

Bach

and

Gould

Gould

had

formal

study

He

went

to

a

college

that

specifically

dealt

only

with

music

Bach

and

his

sons

had

Informal

study

of

music

private

lessons

family

traditions

etc

It

would

be

the

same

as

saying

that

I

have

had

formal

studies

in

Piano

when

all

I

had

was

private

lessons

and

what

I

was

born

with

With

all

due

respect

the

distinction

without

a

difference

that

you

are

attempting

to

validate

is

utter

balderdash

There

were

no

music

conservatories

per

se

in

Germany

in

Bachs

day

and

few

elsewhere

Most

of

them

were

in

Italy

Bach

who

took

boarding

pupils

in

essence

ran

a

private

school

for

professional

musicians

compelled

them

to

follow

a

set

curriculum

and

a

rigours

course

of

study

and

he

did

well

at

training

and

preparing

professional

musicians

for

positions

as

Capellmeisters

and

Cantors

In

addition

to

four

of

his

sons

Kirnberger

Krebs

Muthel

Kittel

Agricola

Gerber

et

al

were

graduates

of

what

we

ought

to

call

The

Johann

Sebastian

School

of

Music

David

Glenn

Lebut

Jr

wrote

October

To

Teri

Noel

Towe

Actually

there

were

formal

music

schools

attatched

to

the

universities

Music

was

an

essential

part

in

Humanistic

education

And

I

sseem

to

remember

a

Conservatory

in

Germany

at

the

time

but

not

in

the

same

region

where

Bach

lived

and

worked

That

one

came

later

Continue

on

Part